00:00:00 Speaker 1: All right, everybody, I know you're sitting home wineing and crying about how you missed getting tickets for Meat Eater off there and like you're just despondent, catatonic. What are the kind of words you guys even know what catatonic means? Super not happy because you missed me and every it's so but it has but perk up, come out of that catatonic stupor because there's still two venues left. Everything's sold out, but we got still still two venues left. April fifteen and April sixteen. Neighboring dates me cal Yanni, Meat Eater off the Air, Holy Smokes, MASA Arts Center, and Mace Arizona. Few Phoenix Market people or people who can get there in City National Grove, Anaheim, California, like the l A. You people, come on out, man, hurry up and get them. Everything else is gone, but get those see you me eat your podcast you shirtless, severely folk bitten in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything presented by on X Hunt, creators of the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play Store, nor where you stand with on X you're starting, Johnnie, you're starting the whole podcast. Yeah, because if you're gonna say the first thing, there's something I think you should say. Oh, but then going on welcome everybody, No, no, no, you should say, um, so Alex Messenger, you got attacked by a grizzly bear, and then going to whatever you're gonna talk about, all right, because that's titillating, very that's titillating, and people want to hear all about that. Have you always been fond of that word? Did you feel like just recently it's like re entered your vocabulary, titting what I like about? But no, it only recently. I've always been fond of it. I've just been trying to use it more. Um, there's a Tom Robbins character named Marks Marvelous, and uh, he always liked that name because people loathe the marks Karl Marx and real men never use the word marvelous, and so it was sort of an attack on language and stereotypes about language. So I feel like, um, the word titilating is unexpected. It is that like if I said red or awesome or bitching, people don't care about that red story no one's gonna listen a titilating story. You'll fill over there. He looks half asleep, can't be he's fired right up now. Yeah, you hear that word and they turn the volume now so they know it's a titilating story about white water and a bear attack. That's right, be bite. But how do we get to that well once? I mean, just now, I want to do in. I want to do him justice as an author. Alex Messenger, author of the twenty ninth Day Surviving a Grizzly Attack in the Canadian Tundra. But first, Yanni on Walleye Alex now lives in Duluth, correct, that's right. And I was telling him that we were just recently on fishing. Walleye on the lax Yes, if I caught some, Walley said yes. But I was more just as interested in catching while I I was interested in asking everybody why the obsession with Wally? Why do you think it is? I don't know. I think people appreciate the flavor and uh that it's a beautiful fish and it's pretty easy to filet. That's a great way. That's a great thing to say. Yeah, that's yeah, that's a good way to sell a fish monk fish or no, it's not like a shovel nose sturgeon. All the people I've asked this question to you the first person, I think that that has added that point that it's easy to filet. I'm gonna add that to everything I talk about now. I mean, you look at a northern it's like, No, I always talk about things that are hard to clean. Yeah, but no one ever praises, no one ever celebrates things that are easy to clean. I mean that's utilitarian. It's especially a lot of them. You got to be a writer. You're not that old though, Oh you are? Yeah, I got a baby face. No, I just did some rough math. Read your book. I did some rough math, and I had you pegged at twenty seven. Yeah, I don't know why, oh five seventeen, Okay, later ways the way, Oh you're good on Wally. Um, So you're from duluthep uh born and raised U born and raised in the Twin Cities suburbs. My wife's from Duluth. So that's what brought me there. So I was living up in Eally, Minnesota before um moving down to Duluth. Oh man, my old man loved Eli because before my time, my man was they would do big, long canoe trips. And I still have this, I still have I think I want to get framed. I have like his Duluth pack. Yeah, yeah, that says some canoe country outfitters on it stenciled on there, like the big leave. I had it rebuilt recently. I want to get it put in a glass frame it so I'm gonna hang ou on my wall or just keep using it. I moved to Duluth for an afternoon one time when I um moved. Well here here's the deal man. What was weird about it is when I got out of graduate school, I intended to take all the things I learned about UM, Like I started writing like in the West, right, and there's this very intense sort of sense of place in the West, and and I wanted to take that way of looking at the world and apply it to the Great Lakes. And so soon as I finished graduate, squad left because I was gonna go write a book about the Great Lakes. Um and my dad had just died, So I took his truck and I started doing all my research. And uh, I had a girlfriend at the time, and we're gonna move to. I was like, I thought, like, what better place to write about? The Great Lakes and Duluth like you kind of just nudged right out in it, you know. Yeah, there's some great stories up there. So I thought, maybe we'll just rand a place for six months here and then I'll move and to the kind of the other end of the lakes and live there. And I remember we were sitting in a bar, um looking at We're sitting in a bar looking at apartments and cottages for rent and whatnot. And my girlfriend got an email that she had uh gotten accepted into this writing fellowship awesome that she had to go to. And so that's just Aliso and everything kind of like went an upheaval and then wasn't long later I changed my mind. Anyway, I moved back out west, Yeah, but almost moved there. That's crazy and amazing how life just kind of switches. I knew these um we'll go down to this, we'll go down to your story in a minute. But it's cold as ship, right because I knew these girls. I knew these girls I met down in Key West that were telling me that they were students at um D and they were telling me one time they realized that they went a month without going outside. Yeah, because you can take tunnels everywhere. Yeah, that campus is just like super connected and really easy to get lost in because of you know, these buildings weren't originally made for it, so they're all just like kind of bolted together. But yeah, you don't need to go outside. You can spend a month in your bedroom slippers only from class and the cafeteria and stuff like that. Yep, exactly taking walks for exercise. Uh, what do you do, Like, what's your main thing you do for a living? Your writer? Uh So my day job is marketing for a hospital in town there called St. Luke's. So um. I started that about a year ago. Before that, I was doing marketing for an outdoor company called Frost River who makes traditional canoe packs kind of like the one You're dead had um. And uh yeah, so I've been to a marketing for a long time and the writing and photograph fe sidework, which is really vocationally exciting for me. You got a a scar on your legs more the bear guy I do. Yeah, drop your drawers and show us. It's kind of a compromising old it's it's in like a bad spot right. Oh, it's real high. Yeah, it's right right at the hip joint. So uh, it's like dropped drop trout and then lift up the boxers and then you can see it. So I don't show it plant company. No, you don't just walk around and walk into bars and and be what happened? Yeah, you get kicked out that way. Tell tell people about them. You're on a six hundred mile long canoe trip. It's right, lay that out. Yeah, So like what is the trip? The trip seventeen okay, yeah, let's see seventeen years old. Seventeen years old and you embark with some other kids on a six hundred mile long paddle. Yep. Yeah, this is the it's the pinnacle trip for the camp that we were going through. Um what yeah, you know what explained this camp? Yeah? So Camp Mino gin Um it's a wilderness trip based camp. It's started in I think um up in northern Minnesota, north of Grand Moray. It's like literally a few miles south of the Canadian border, right next to the boundary waters. UM. So they set up with the mission of um taking kids out for transformational experiences in a wilderness setting. But not bad kids. No, no, not like not like those um more yeah, oriented towards kids who have gotten in trouble or have chemical issues and things like that. You know, this is this is um kids that just want to have an adventure um and see the wild places. So like a regular summer camp, but just bumped up just a little higher notch of adventure. Yeah exactly. You know, it's it's not like a residential camp where you're getting up, you're eating in the cafeteria. You're going and do an archery and catching frogs and uh doing arts and crafts and stuff, which isn't to knock that at all. That's a really fun experience, but this is just different from that. UM. So you get to camp and you get packed out and there you know, they kind of act like an outfitter in that sense. Um. I thought one of the most interesting things about the camp was that you don't take a car to base camp or two headquarters. Yeah. Yeah. So it's this amazing spot um like literally right on the edge of the boundary waters. You have to go across the lake to get to it, and there's like an old ATV trail that you can take around the lake to get there. But um, camp itself is just kind of out there, so you feel like you're I mean, you really are in the wilderness even when you're at base camp. Is it mostly is it like like blue collar kids are mostly wealthy kids. Uh, it's it's a mixture, um, you know, and that's super intentional to um. There's like scholarship programs for if you can't afford the fees and scholarship. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so I actually was recipient of a partial scholarship for this longer trip. You can also be like a work camper where you're at camp as like a residential camper and you're helping out around camp with like chores and whatever, and you know, having a lot of friends, a lot of fun with friends and kids rage and UM, that's a really cool experience too. Um. But yeah, you know, it's a it's a wide range of folks that go there. But sessions start with like really short kind of intro um. I think they even have a shorter session now that's like five days or something. Um, but at the time, the shortest session was eight days. And my parents were like, we're going on this trip, and like, okay, I would go into the boundary waters uh for a long time with my family. But my parents were had heard great things and they kind of sent me on that first trip to you just go up and do a trip. Yeah, I got you. Yeah. So it's now like you spend your summer there, No, no go and do a canoe trip. Yeah, in the going to a canoe trip. Um. There's also like backpacking trips, um climbing trips, things like that. Um. So it's just amazing experiences and you know, you're with your contemporaries and you're also with guides who are you know, really well versed in what you're doing. And we're not old not old, No, I mean they're you know, um they're adults. Uh, but they're not like middle aged. Were your parents adventures they were? Yeah? Maybe still, well they're getting they're they're both retired, so the adventure, the type of adventure has changed a little bit. But um, they're both in anthropology. Um. So my dad was a professor of anthropology at Hammond University. Um the whole time I was growing up. My mom um was an adjunct professor and worked in administration and stuff. And they both worked together and they teach study abroad trips um every January, so we'd go in two of these ancient sites and Mexico. Yeah, so I was climbing up temples in Mexico when I was three with them for at before that, they did field work like in um Guatemal, I think, and other Central American companies or countries where they're setting up with hammocks in the jungle and you gotta check your boots for spiders and your archaeological pits for snakes and stuff, and breaking up machete fights between the workers and whatever. So they definitely, uh brought a sense of adventure to bring it up myself and my sister. So you know, it wasn't like totally out of the blue that they were like, hey, you should go on this trip, but you know, a hugely important decision for them to to send me there because um, you know, like I said, we've gone camping before, but going camping with this like organized group and and seeing how you can move and do all this stuff really efficiently, um was just kind of a paradigm shift for me because up in the boundary waters, you measure how far you have to carry your gear between lakes um in rods which is like seventeen and a half feet. Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. Yeah, So it's like, oh, how long is that party? Oh it's five rods, that's super short, or it's three rods, which is a mile. Um and with my family it was like a hundred and fifty rods. That's like impossible. Did you learn how to think in rods? Oh? Yeah? You know. When I started hanging out in Southeast Alaska, we have a fish act there. Everybody does everything in fathoms and nice first all conversations, I would need to like be running math, right, but after whatever, I know, years, Yeah, I gotta do with the opposite. Now, let's see how many fathom? Yeah? Like I think like I think in fathoms only when I'm up there. When I'm up there, I think in fathoms. And someone says like feet, I gotta go like hold I'm at and go the other direction because I just conceptualize, right, I've learned to conceptualize in fathoms. Tell me again, how many feet fathom? Six ft six? I wonder if that's where they're saying, like, you can't fathom something that comes from? Uh you know, do you know where where the measurement the rod comes from. Oh I should know it's uh, this is I don't believe this is where it came from. But it's the length of an old Minnesota guide canoe. You know, Mark Twain. I think it's related to surveying though originally say you know the author, Mark Twain, Samuel Clemens, you know his pen name, like Mark Twain is his pen name. His given name is Samuel Clemens. Mark Twain is that they would and the old steamboats that have a dude up front with a rope that had knots tied in an increments there's six ft increments. Ny, that's a good little project for you to work on right now. Um, yeah, we've done this one before time. And the riverboat captain's got dude up front with a weight on a rope with knots, and he and the dudes yelling out what not depth? And Mark Twain second second, not is safe passage? Good water? So when you're a riverboat, calf you like that dude up front, were going, Mark Twain, Mark Twain, that means good ship and sing? Yeah. So you portage and rods, yeah, see portage and rods and and uh my perception of what was like achievable was totally different once I went on that first trip with camp and uh, I just I was hooked right after that. What's a long ass portage in your mind? Don't give it to me in rods, fathoms, uh, miles yards, whatever the hell you want to do? Yeah, well, uh, I mean when you get a standard but long ass portage, a standard but long. I'm a fan. I enjoy portaging, which is uh, you know some some people can't understand that. But um, between like one and two miles is like, this is good, Okay, I enjoy that. You know, you get into the mode and um you get to the end and you're just super stoked to be ready to put your boat down because I want to bump into this six hundred mile journey. So you did a number of trips over the years. Yeah, it's sort of the pinnacle. Yep. The hell week sure is the how long I take you guys to go six hundred miles? Or how long should it take to go six This is a forty two day session, um so uh A couple of days less than that was was you know, end to end kind of what the goal was? Yeah, and like and The reason we're bringing up porridges because this trip is it's it's you got just on a river for six hundred miles, right, You're bumping from system to system. So you like get on a lake, the lake flows into your river. You go to another lake, that lake that lakes frozen, you drag. You should across the ice. Then you like drag. Then you portage over into some whole other river system. Yeah, and then move through that network, right, and it's and then you always need to go round rapids and everything. Yeah. Yeah, So our route was amazing. I mean we started out in the Northwest Territories UM on the Dublant River and made our way into nunavit Um and then eventually got off the Dublant and d of did this um not exactly height of land, but this sort of traverse into another river system, the coon Walk Um, and made our way down that and then ended up on the Kazan. And so it was a really unique route. UM that was a combination of rivers that Camp and other people had done, but we we hadn't seen another trip that had actually taken this route in this traverse, so we're kind of felt like we were breaking trail and you guys, you guys kind of architected your own journey. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, the the Six of Us, which includes the guide, you know, confabd about you know what we wanted to have the trip b and and discussed a couple of different options and um, this one. You know, in addition to having that traverse and these different river systems which were very different in terms of the field. Um, it also went from the tiger forest, which is like scrub trees. Um. So the largest biome in the world. Yeah, it was the tiger Yeah. And it's just amazing. Uh. It's kind of like everything is in miniature, but they're still trees and everything. Um, and they're black spruce, poplar, yep and shrubs. And when you're like when you roll in like Siberia and Russia, Yeah, and then Canada, I think it's Yeah, I've read multiple times the largest biome on the planet, like the largest like habitat type. Yeah that exists. Yeah, and it's it's like the threshold between I don't know what's south of that as far as biomas go, but it's kind of the next step north is the tundra. So it's like right on the edge. UM, tell people about um sort of your perception of what it would be like to like travel across into the tree line. You know, when you look at old maps, you'll see on old maps they use, you'll see this line here and there it'll say the limit of wooded country. Oh nice and old maps. But talk about like what, like what that transition looked like. So do your expectation of what that would be like and what it was like? Like? Yeah, so I in my mind, you know, we're discussing this um looking over maps and everything, and we didn't have that description. It was kind of like the green zone turned into the whatever, you know, white zone. Uh. And that was right across the middle of Dublant Lake, which is the largest lake in ninevet Um. And I just imagine kind of pushing off from shore on Dublant and paddling across the lake, which in my mind was we couldn't see either shore. You know, you never do that. You never paddle in the middle of the lake where you can't see shore. It's really big. Yeah, isn't it intimidating to get out? Like why don't like you wouldn't do that? You wouldn't go in the middle of the lake because if a storm came up or whatever. You've been in a pretty bad situation. But that big, yeah, I mean you could probably see a sliver of it. But in my mind's eye, I was like, we're gonna be paddling, we won't see shore, it's gonna be foggy, We're gonna push off. There's gonna be trees. We'll get to the other side, completely understand. Yeah, So in my mind's eye, that's what it was gonna be, is like you know, a switch flipping, like trees, no trees, And in reality, it was just kind of like all the trees just kept getting smaller and smaller and fewer and farther between until you kind of don't even realize you're in this place that just doesn't have any trees, and the shrubs are like hidden in little hollows and stuff. There's just like very very little vegetation that grows of any height at all. We've experienced that on the Dalton Highway. You've crossed that a number of the tree line a number of times, and it's like a gradual petering out like just like just like you described it, just everything just sort of slows down and then there's no trees and I think one point we're like, holy sh it, there's no trees and sign right next to like the last black spruce, and they it was like there's a really yeah, I mean the last Braxts boots you can see from that spot. There's a really good book about um the Natural History of Alaska. And you know when you see like when you're going across the tree line the limited wooded country and then you see like some tree that's like the from whatever your perspective is at a given time, it looks like the last one. It's tempting to imagine it as like a pioneer, Yeah, whose seed like blue up there? Yeah, But in this book it explains that what you're typically looking at our remnants, Yeah, it's the last one. It's the last one left, not the first. It's not the first one there, you're looking at the last one left, and that you're still seeing the effects of the end of the ice age right of that of that line moving. Yeah, it's wild, and I mean the remnants of the ice age up there just so tangible in a way that's totally different from any other place I've been down here, like you know, you see stuff and you have to like think about, oh, like that boulder was dropped by the last ice age. But up there there's these things called um eskers, which are remnants of old glacial rivers, so that all the sediment would be, you know, in in the ice at the bottom of this glacial river, and then when the uh glaciers recede, that sediment drops down and it's the river bottom. But now it's a ridge that makes a raised sidewalk, often flat, often flat, awesome to portage on, great, great traveling, hard to portage up, hard to get on top, but then smooth. So how many people you got with us? How many people you get with you on the trip? There were six of us, two three canoes, three canoes, and you got one like, uh, like I don't know a guide counselor yep, howlds that guy? So he was in his mid twenties because in the pictures he looks young and we all look you yeah you do, but it looks like it. He looked like there's a guy. So he's in his mid twenties. Yeah, yeah, lots of experience. Um, he was pretty experienced. Wo yeah, yeah, he yep. We all the of Um we at the end of each trip with camp, we get a little we tie a little bracelet for each other. Um that's kind of too commemorate the trip. And um, you're theoretically gonna wear it, you know, uh as long as you can kind of a reminder of everything you learned. And his forearm was just like covered in it. I noticed that one of the pictures. I was wondering if he had an injury. I saw it. No, those are each one of those is a trip that he went on or guided. Um. Yeah. So and at one point in time, this being like the Pinnacle Trip. Yeah, at one point time. This is what's kind of ironic is they used to run the Pinnacle trip, yeah, to the East, but quit doing it because of fears of polar bears. Right so, but no one ever got hit by a polar bear. Right. No, there were some some near misses that you know, they paid attention to, and we're like, all right, you know, polar bears are uh, well, for one thing, polar bears will stock humans. Um. And that's a level of creepy that is, you know, if you're going for for a canoe adventure and stuff. You know, it's kind of something you want to not have as part of your trip. I'll be worrying about a polar bear that's like following you from camp to camp and stuff like that. No, uh, I never have, and I would like to you. And a friend of mine, a taskm exposure to him, talks about just the creepiness of them following you around. Yeah. I can't imagine. I mean, it just be hard to sleep. And so they moved it over into grizzly country. Yeah, yep. And what are your as you're on this long trip? Yeah, reminder me how many days forty two days? When you're on this long trip, what are your conversations and what are your what is your awareness about that? Like, oh, there's grizzlies, you know what I mean, because I think that, like like I found life. It's like, um, I feel like you have all the things that you think are a problem. Yeah, you know, you're like aware of like these are the problems. Yeah, but then the problems are always something else, right oftentimes, Yeah, like you get blindsided by the actual things right right, Like you think, like you gotta clean your garage and that's a real problem. But then like your kid is lyme disease and you're like, wow, it wasn't you know, it wasn't on my radar like you always. But here you are like presumably you're like, oh and there's like grizzlies and that's a problem, a thing of concern. Yeah, something to be aware of. Um. So yeah, I mean we were aware of it before we left UM camp in Northern Minnesota. You know, we did, uh, we did training at camp on what you're supposed to do, you know, sitting around talking about we had bear spray pepper spray walking through you know, how to use that using the practice cans. Uh not at that point with the inactive ingredients. No, No, Um, we did. We were you know, using the cans and kind of going through the motions and everything. Um. But everything about the plunger press so um. But that training look like what was the training, Like here's the thing and here's how to use it. Yeah. And then I mean it wasn't like thirty seconds. You know, we spent some time on it, um to the point where when we were done, I felt very comfortable with how to use it. Um. But you still just left in du tent. Yeah. Yeah, I should have carried it. Yeah yeah, um yeah, you have to have it on you in order to be able to use it. So so you guys like took it seriously, but not that seriously. So yeah, right, we we had it. We we did that training, we did other training as far as like here's what you do in general. Um, you know when you see it and then, um, we've been told that it was really really weird to even see one up there and you can see forever. You know, they no trees, you're up on high points a lot, and you can see just everywhere. Um, So we kind of went into it with like they're there, but they're not like prevalent. Yeah, and they're a way different critter than the coastal ones. Oh yeah, just wait, like just like yeah, you just go forever and there's one way off in the distance off towns are scared shitless of people. Yeah, like I'm just going there. They're not acclimated into all the people. They see it and they're like that's whatever that is is not good. Yeah, exactly, there's a more kind of just a little more um, a little kind more wigged out all the time, you know, I mean just kind of a cage or sort of yeah. Yeah, and they're you know, they don't have like salmon streams where they're just picking dinner out and whatever. They're they're pretty nomadic. They have a pretty wide range, which I understand is more wide than like a coastal grizzly. Yeah, extremely low population densities right where one of these things might have one of these bears up in these areas, he might have a hundred square mile home range. Yeah, yeah, or bigger maybe. I mean, I have to I have to look at the biology of it, but it's a pretty wide range that they go. Um. But in addition to the bear spray and just kind of like the other protocols, we had um bear poppers, which are these noisemaking devices that you shoot with a like a bolt action little pen and then it fires off this thing and it goes just goes boom and it's just a noise deterrent. Did you experiment with those? No, that was that was like, here's how you use it, but you guys shouldn't use this, Like that's that's more something that the guy should use. If that comes up. You don't know what they want to ask about me, And as I asked about it now, the films like yes, the girls group we mispronounced, we mispronounced, the French names we say fombs known mispronounced. I can't reading, like the violent films yeah, or the French like so yeah, Um, you guys got your trip. There's a guy's trip, boys trip, and there's a girl's trip, and they're kind of parallel on parallel river systems. The reason I was gonna ask you about this, when I was a boy, if you were out like on a long canoe journey and you were occasionally coming across an encampment of girls, oh boy, I feel that there would be like you wouldn't be able to pull them apart. For you guys avoid each other. Yeah, specifically exactly exactly are you guys ranted? You guys rated each other. You were out of all kinds of you guys would like rain all your food reserves like you you guys are starving, well not starving. It was bad. We were we were being aware that we needed to be careful with how much food we had, and they had certain reserves. There was like there was a there was an exchange, like they had like plenty of some stuff that you were out of you guys have they didn't have the right fishing equipment. You guys are slaying Lake trout like it's nobody's business exactly. You like eating lakers. Oh my gosh, you're talking about how good they are, like a spokesman for the Lake Trout. Lake trout is my favorite. The pictures in the book. You got a couple like one of those things as a tanker. That's my like, the biggest fish in my life. It's probably gonna be the biggest Lake Troy to ever catch. Someday. I'm gonna make a graphite out of it. Incredible. Yeah, and I mean they're they're absolutely amazing eating. Um. I want to I want to return to the how do you say it again? The farms. But one of the coolest things, because I like to fish, one the cool things is when you're in that big gass lake. Yeah, and the ice is breaking up and you're kind of like dragging over the ice and trying to find leads. Yeah, you talk about the lakers are all up thinning. Yeah, that's the weirdest scene. It's crazy. I mean it's takes spoons though, Yeah, they took spoons. Um, I mean they just loved spoons and they were really easy to catch, so we just tossed one out and be like, are we we'd ask you know, hey, you guys want fish for dinner and toss went out and like you as many fish as you want? Yeah? Yeah, and you guys flamm and do what with them? Yeah? We'd filatm we'd um. I mean they're basically steaks them in the big one that you caught, right, Yeah, this fish is as long as your leg in that photograph. I'm not even holding it for it. It's so heavy. I'm just like and then I mean, did you guys eat that in one meal? Yeah? They're growing kids, we're grown kids. We're burning a lot of calories. Yeah, six people and you're low on pasta were a low impastas, are like, all right, a couple more fish meals? Um. So yeah, we pretty much just fried up. Though you don't much that, but you run into the farms out in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, uh, but yeah, you gotta kind of steer clear of them, probably because the camp, the boss man, the counselor makes you guys steering her, the guide makes you steer clear of them. No, I mean we're just like you gusn't joined forces the party, right, We didn't want to impose on their trip, you know. I mean when you're when you're on a long trip like this, the group dynamic are well, I mean they're for one thing, they're crucial, right. Um. The other thing is you know, it's it's like, uh, it's being made. Oh, it's almost being made in a vacuum. Like you don't have a bunch of different input points. You're not checking your Facebook, you're not interacting with a bunch of different people, Like, it's just your group that's out in the woods. And what you're making is something that's super special. And you know that was special for our group and special for their group, and we didn't want to, uh you know, have them have a different trip because of us or whatever. So you know, part of its mutual respect and uh yeah, so I was, uh, you know, I always want to act like when I tell this anecdote, I always want to act like I heard it, but I actually heard it from someone that heard it. But a friend of mine went to remember who else was I went to see a lecture by a guy that does these extraordinarily long canoe trips like what you're talking about, um, And he was talking about you know when you spend a weekend, you spend a weekend out of the woods, and you feel time slowing down and you feel your mind clearing, your thoughts are focusing, right, You're you're developing a sense of peace right at a rapid rate. He said, that still happens. It's still happening at that rate after thirty days. Yeah, that clarification line doesn't doesn't stop. Wow, I believe that, And I can see why you might get like in that zone. It might get that you didn't want, you didn't need outside, like you had your six guys, right, and you just didn't need the noise of other individuals, right. I mean, that's part of what's amazing about going on a trip like this. And you know, to your point, you don't need to be out for thirty days for that effect to start taking place. You know, you go into the boundary waters or whatever wild place you like to visit, and it starts to happen quickly, Like getting away from all that technology and everything and just being connected with nature and everything. It has a profound effect on on your psyche and and your body and your mind. And it's just it's one of the reasons that that I go out, and I think it's one of the reasons a lot of people go out. It's just that personal transformation and centering that happens when you guys during the whole trip. Um, it seems like you're kind of traveling through two kinds of water. One is just like one is just you're slogging right against the wind across lakes and it's just probably incredibly monotonous, right, And the other the other is that, um, you're often in situations that it feel like, like extremely threatening from white water. Yeah, and canyons feel that way. We're we're working within our with when their skill set and everything. But yeah, I mean when you're in it, Yeah, and then portaging around stuff all the time. Which of those two things do you prefer? Did you like just the just the going or did you like that that that stress of the white water. I really like both. I think both combined is is really awesome. Tentilating. That's great. Uh, talk about the implications of having a spray skirt or not a spray skirt, which I thought was pretty interesting. Yeah. So spray skirt is basically like a poncho that latches onto your boat um and then comes up to your person um and keeps water from coming over the sides or going over the top of the boat and getting into the boat um slash water. And in a two person canoe, it's is it connected or how does that work? There's a couple of different ways it can be set up. There might be just a bow skirt just for the front, or there might be like a full one where you know, both the bow and the stern person are like cinched in and there's uh all snaps all around the gunnals um the boat and that's like full protection. So UM, we didn't have them on ours just because it's kind of it was uh the mental hope that we wouldn't paddle as big a water if we didn't have that UM, And then uh policy switched not that long after to include them just because they are, UM they're helpful in making sure that that you're as safe as you can be out there and don't end up getting a bunch of water, because if you end up getting some water in your boat, it starts to affect how it handles pretty significantly. So UM. But because we didn't have them. We were, we were paddling super conservatively. But it's sort of a calculated decision you made. I mean, you could have had them. Yeah, but it invites, it could invite, you know, the decision to be like we got the skirts, let's do it. You know. Um, but I think if I went again, I would have the skirts and can't use the skirts now. Like I said, just because it's a it just raises your level of safety a little bit. You know, you're still paddling conservatively and you don't want to go into crazy stuff. Um, but it just it makes it so that smaller things don't become bigger things. There's this pioneering um mountain hunter. He's dead now, but his name is Duncan Gil Chris, and he would do a lot of things that no one had done. And he had a similar approach to crampons when he was hunting mountain goats brought him. Okay, but you do not put them on to get somewhere. Oh sure, you only put them on to get out of somewhere. Right. That was his like view on it, right, Like it invites a level like it invites that like next we can do it. Yeah, that next level of stuff, and you just had to make a rule for yourself. You know, I don't touch these to get somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like setting up bumpers, you know, so that you can't cheat in your mind. Yeah, explain to me some of the river hazards, recyclers, strainers. You do pretty good job of walk through all these things. Yeah. So there's a lot of different We call him all features basically in the rivers. Yeah, um so recyclers basically tumbling water. Um. I think some people call him haystacks. Um. Not positive on that. We want to fact check that. Okay, throw pillow into this pillow. So I get confused about so I look at it all as like, you know, I guess I kind of understand what it is, but I don't have the vocabulary that you have for it all. Yeah, and a really good resource for that is um uh Oh, I'm blanking on his name. He's like the pioneer of popular canoeing. Uh. He has a great book about it. But up in the boundary waters? Is he from that country you're thinking of it? No, it's not stew. It's like a big coffee table book with um all kinds of instructional information. Fine, I want I'll buy this book right now. Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. Um, maybe when you guys a computer can check it out. Yeah. Oh and he's got he painted and he did a bunch of documentaries. But he's like the godfather of modern canoeing. And I'll probably pop up. But the number two hit will be, uh, the number two hit will probably this gentleman. Okay, gone explain some features for me. Yeah. So on the river, there's a bunch of different ways that the water interacts with, um, you know, the rocks and and the shoreline and different stuff that's in there. So um, there you're typically aiming for downstream vs, which literally form a V that points downstream and that's kind of like the safest way down um. And then behind the rocks or are they things, usually there's an eddie where the current is kind of swirling around and it's kind of going upstream. It's calmer water. Usually, Um, there are these kind of insidious ones called pillows, and no one want to see one. But I don't know what. I don't understand the hydraulics of it. So basically, the water uh is pushing up and over something and that's something you know, it's a rock or a log or whatever, but it's it's pushing over it smoothly. So when you're looking at it from upstream, all you see is this kind of like infinity pool edge. And when you're tubing, it's a tailbone ruiner. Yeah exactly. Yeah, you're gonna get hung up on it or whatever, depending on the current. Um. But like behind them there can be a like a waterfall pretty much. Um. So they're almost impossible to see from upstream, and and uh, you gotta watch out for him because they'll just come up and you're like, oh, ship, we gotta do something. Um. Then there's recyclers where the water and that's what that's what we called him sleepers. Sleepers. Yeah, hold on, you call the pillow sleeper Okay, yeah, are you still talking the river and bed pillow and sleeper kind of yeah, yeah, what the hell is with them? It's sort of like very peaceful, oculous. You know, it's called a blanket. It's recycling. It's good for them because it does it has that look from above it's hard to pick out. You can sleeper like that. Yeah. Gosh, yeah, we used to confuse creeper and sleeper okay, not with water with alcohol, Oh to feel like, man, I drink some real creeper, which is what which meant that you'd enjoy it quickly. Yeah, and all of a sudden craft up on didn't know one hits you. Yeah, and you like Long Island iced teas were creepers, yeah, or you could call them sleepers. Looks fine. How bad could it be? A beach bucketful? Yeah? Yeah. And one of the other features that's really dangerous is a strainer, which is basically typically a um like a branch or a tree where it's just straining the water and that creates a lot of hydraulic pressure on the upstream side that can trap stuff um including like people or gear, boets and stuff. And oh they're bad too, man. Yeah. I had to run in with one of those this year with my wife and her friends. We put our canoe in. I was like, there's a chance we're all going in the river because it's just high. But it's like people don't want to when you're coming up on a bad sweeper. It's people don't want to accept the pain of leaning forward and letting it do whatever it's gonna do to your back right, like to jump over it, you mean, or no, like there's a big limb out, Yeah, and you're gonna go on. You have to accept that, like this is not gonna be fun. But I will lean over and my back will take all the branch, you know, the scraping right, But that's what you have to do. And I was like, whatever we do when we hit this thing. We're coming up and like we're hitting it, it's like, don't lean, don't lean, just take it. Yeah, but they lean you're saying, don't lean back or to the side into the side, yeah, like just absorb the blow, you know, like when you go like a loose one, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And if the branches are going down into the water, then this is a whole different story. You gotta go around it because it can pull stuff down or like if you get hung up on it, the way that the currents going can make your boat want to spin around or you know, flips sideways because it's pulling at the at the bottom of the boat. One of the most lethal features, uh, probably the the ones you get hung up on. The hung up on not well like a strainer, like you know, if you get if you broadside a rock or something. Then it can just trap your boat and fold the boat around it, and then you've got you're having to scramble out of it, you know, take care of yourself and your gears, all of garage sailing, and your boat might be pretty significantly damaged or or just stuck and require some uh some rescue techniques or recovery techniques to get it pulled off of that rock. Did you guys carry equipment for jack and your boats off rocks. Yeah, we carried a set of ropes and carabineers to set up. I think it was a three to one, like a standard Z drag is what we call it, um so, but yeah, because they could just to avoid that when you when you maage all the hydraulics, like if you imagine a boat against the rock and then add some you know, some massive water that's moving whatever in nine miles our pressing against that thing, right, it's an enormous amount of force, it's huge holding it in place. Yeah. Yeah, and the canoes wrapped around the rock like a tin can. So even if you get that Z drag set up, you know you're doing the three to one. You're hauling on it and the rope stretching because of the water, and then you've got people in the middle doing sheer force moving the ropebole back and forth. They can be a real struggle to get a boat recover. Theyving in canoes. These were um Royal Royal X. Yeah, rest in peace, Royal X. It is done now done. Got cars in Jennick or something. Uh. It was kind of like Coda chrome. There was one spot that made it I think is what I understand. Really Royal X canoes are no more. Yeah, there's there's a couple of different materials. So they've made some super tough um like composite, kind of like kevlar. I think I have Old townc what's that would probably Royal X. This is like a plastic compound. Yeah, yeah, it's plastic. It's kind of got this weird foam stuff in the middle. But once you get it pulled off of a rock, you set it out in the sun or next to a fire and the heat just let it to pop back to shaping. Really keep get back on the water. You might have to do a little patching or you know, hammer the gunles and did you guys carry gear with you to fix canoes. Yeah, I don't remember what the kit was like, but we had repair kits for everything, stoves, canoe. Uh. People, I was surprised to see that you guys would run just those regular woven like standard woven seats. You didn't do like crazy creek set up with back support and stuff. You just gotta learn to live with it. Yeah, I mean you're posture right and go. Yeah, I I really don't like a backrest in a canoe. So is that like, is that not pro pros don't like a backrest. I would probably say that. I mean, you know, it's if you're if you're we need to do with the backrest, you're like, uh, I'm like, I'd never do that, you know, with the exception of like if you're hanging out for a long time, if you're if you're just sitting and fishing, I mean by all means, but if you're paddling big water stuff where it's um the boats getting tossed around and stuff, Uh, that backrest is making you kind of an extension of the boat in a bad way. Like you need to have enough fluid in your person. Yeah, you know, if you're just sit there with the stiff back and and stuff ends up tossing you around. Then gravity is pushing you over. You guys paddled most that stuff not sitting in those seats, but that, yeah, lowers your center of gravity. You can move the canoe with your knees, like you know, if the bus, but if the boat's getting pushed to the left, you can push to the right and get it straightened back out. And you and you know a wide array of strokes that maybe I know them and don't know that they have names, but what are some of the you break down quite a few strokes. Yeah, So, I mean there's a lot of different ways to move a canoe, but the basic ones are forward paddle, backroud paddle, which are exactly what you think. Um. And then when you're in the stern, when you're in the back and you're you're doing the steering, Um, there's the J stroke and C stroke. UM. And the J stroke basically corrects, uh, the turn that naturally happens when you're paddling the boat from the back. You're on the right and you're just paddling, it's gonna generally push you to the left. And the J sid Yeah, do you when you're doing J stroke. Do you throw the J on every stroke or the only correct like every other? I typically correct every other, but it's totally a nuanced thing depending on the weather and and uh, you know, if there's any current or whatever. So you get into the mode where you're not even thinking about it. You're just like throwing a J in every once in a while. Yeah, it seems like there's like a there's like I like it, but there's like an inefficiency in it. Like you're definitely like throwing drag. You're throwing the least amount of drag that you can by with staying on the same side. You know, A J stroke is is just like a little a little hit at the end of the at the end of the forward stroke. It's not like a rudder where you're like boom and both just slowing down. Yeah, people who are familiar with this, imagine that you're you're paddling along you're paidly just how you imagine you're paddling. Where you're paddle is hitting the water perpendicular to in line, the blade is hitting the water perpendicular to the canoe, and it's just following the canoe along. At the end, you put a little hook on it where you shoot the paddle, you like, turn the paddle and shoot it slightly outward because the stroke is nudging it left, and that little hook on the end just pops the bow back. Can you explain why? Because it's it's I mean, I understand now why right, But I think it's a lot of people. It's like when I was learning into paddle a canoe, I'd be like, there's a guy, a person in front paddling the same kind of paddle that I'm paddling, and I'm in the back paddling. Why and they're on the opposite side. Why still is my stroke more powerful and pushing the canoe to the left if you're paddling on the right. Uh, that's a good physics question. Then I don't know if I can answer the exact physics of it. Um. But yeah, typically the person in the front is is the motor. Do you think of them as the motor they're pulling the boat along? Yeah. And then in the back, Um, for one, the stern seat is usually a lot closer to the end of the boat. So in terms of leverage, you know, um, if you were to pull the front of the boat or the back of the boat left or right, it's gonna move it significantly, Whereas if you're sitting in the middle and you're trying to turn it, it takes a lot more force to to turn that um. So you know, if the boat is a lever, you're further away from the fulcrum was right on the bow and he was stroking, it might turn the boat a lot more, I suppose. Yeah, So like if you're in the bow and you need to move the boat a lot, you're gonna you're gonna reach forward, forward and out to try to um make that happen. So that's something you do in white water. You're like, oh, ship, here comes a rock and you know you're in the bow and you just you're it's super physical. You know, you're on your knees, which also allows you to move your paddle position a lot more than if you're locked on your seat. So yeah, you're just further from the fulkrum in the stern. And then the other main stroke is the C stroke, and that's kind of the opposite um. You're you're pulling the water back and then you can do a little hook towards the canoe at the end and that just kind of makes that that automatic movement of the boat in the opposite direction that much more profound. It's interesting that for a right hand or both of those letters are backwards. Yeah, that's good point. Speaking of pros. Is the person you're speaking of before, Bill Mason? Yes, Bill Mason, and the canoe is Bible is path of the paddle? Yes, ye, thank you. That's the voice of rain Fart Steam podcast producer Cringe. You haven't said anything yet today The Right Way Karin starred. Um had a starring role in our Christmas Ashal. That was so fun. How many miles have you paddled your whole life? I've never done the math thousands probably, Yeah, most of that in the boundary waters in quite a co and your books called the twenty ninth Day? Yeah, what happens on the twenty ninth day? We had breakfast? You know, it's a day off. You're taking a day off. You're you're like, I don't know what you're like, four fifths done or three fifths done day of a forty two day. Yeah. Yeah, we're most of the way horrible at math. I can't I can't simple math. We're most of the way. Um, you know, it's probably our third layover day of the trip. We took our first lay over day twenty days and so we're paddling for three weeks before. So you're just kind of watching your schedule and seeing how you're making along. Yeah, making just take a break, yeah, yeah, just you know how we feeling. Are we just totally bushed? Um? Are we on track? Do we need to make up time? So? Uh, you guys, take a little break, take a little break, have some breakfast. Yeah. Lay over day I like to say, is is just one meal after the other. You know, you're just like, oh, let's have breakfast because right, I mean yeah, it's kind of like hiker stomach where you're just like burning so many calories. You're like I could eat NonStop and just still be hungry. So are you getting like you're losing weight? But like you're losing weight, but but your muscles gotta be doing weird things. But your legs are shrinking? Yeah? Yeah, I mean we're not moving too much with our legs. So and and you gotta move a long distance in the flats to get anywhere. Uh and so it's a yeah, you're just getting lean. Um, so you know your your upper body with a paddling trip just gets really efficient and you know your back muscles are are doing awesome because you're just doing thousands of paddle strokes every day. So you know those days arrests are are super important, um in kind of recharging. But uh yeah, So this one, we were camped on Princess Mary Lake, which is this enormous lake. Um, I can't remember how far across it was, you know, fifteen twenty miles across from shore to shore. And we're camped on this island in the middle of it. And um, we're a couple of hundred yards up from shore. Um, camped on a flat that's below this super steep ridge behind our campsite. And uh, we have breakfast, we have lunch, and after lunch, the rest of the guys decided to go up to the top of this ridge behind our site. Um it's the highest point around on the island. And that's just like a rocky ridge, right yeah, but it's got like crowberry or what's up there. Uh, it's just kind of empty. There's like because like the per the creature, the wines that being up there is up there for a reason. Is it grazing at berries. I didn't see any berries. I don't know exactly what it was doing up there, if it was just kind of roaming looking for berries, you know. But yeah, it's it's um even more stark landscape than the camp site that we had, which he says, like a lot of like bear Rock up there. Yeah, bear Rock. It's kind of like you know, the summit and you're but it's a big gass island right in a fresh water lake. How big is the island? I think it's five miles And what is the bear doing out there? I don't know. That's a that's one of the mysteries. And there's like muskox the island. Yeah, in a freshwater lake. It's so weird. Yeah, well I imagine, uh, you know, when it's iced over a lot of the years, so it's easy for things to get back and forth. But I imagine they are getting the shore too. He doesn't give a ship he'll slim, but the most muscox will slim too. But right, yeah, I wasn't think about yeah, just they crossing on the ice, but thinking about it. Yeah, So when these are little like bears, I get being afraid of you guys are a little afraid of Muskox. Yeah, like real afraid of muskok there. You gotta respect them. I mean, there's they are ornery and powerful animals. They can fight off a grizzly attack. They've got this helmet of horns and uh it's just like this bone plate at the top of their head and then the horns curl around and these kind of Viking style uh helmets, and um, they'll mess you up and they'll charge it random. What does it take to set them off? I was just gonna ask you. I mean, if you're getting too close for comfort pretty much, you know, if you get if you get too close to them, they're like, hey, get out of my business. Sure, but then you'd probably want to I mean you just keep your distance. But yeah, but then they show up in your camp. Yeah, sometimes it's not up to you or they just kind of like come out of come out of nowhere, which is what happened for us, and hollering and pan clanging. They're just gonna come a graze and your camp I guess. I mean that was the only time that that they were like just didn't care about us. They just kept coming. Was later later that day on that lay over day. Um. But otherwise they like they would take note of us and like stare us down and say, hey, go about your business, go the other way, or they look at us and turn away on their own. But um, I don't think there's a lot of thinking that's going on necessarily. They're just kind of really slow plotting and and grazing, and you know, they're just straight out of the ice age. I don't think they've changed very buffalo like. Yeah, if you think about it, and I think you should probably treat them like you treat buffalo. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, you shouldn't go up and feed him when you're in the parks because kids on top of them plenty of videos on what happens when you do that. So so you guys have the layover day, You're eating a whole shipload of food. Yep, yep. Everybody's like, let's go up to the top of the ridge yep. And you say, I'm gonna have a nap. Yeah, I'm tired and I'm a little tuckered. I'm gonna take a nap. You guys do your thing. I'm gonna hang out here. So I retreat to the tent and curl up in my sleeping bag and they go up to the top of the ridge and how far off? So many yards up as the ridge it's about a hundred feet of like steep climb pretty much elevation game. Yeah, yeah, well roughly like how many yards? How many yards? So it's a hundred feet is steep, so it's not it doesn't take that long, like how long has hate to climb up there? About ten minutes because you got to kind of scramble back and forth. So yeah, yeah, and I mean it's probably like forty five degree slope um and steeper in places, but yeah, you gotta like trick your way up. Yeah, and it's kind of chausy, you know, there's like scree and some grass m So you know, I've heard that term, but I don't use that term. Do you know what it means? You know that it means broken up unsafe rock. Yeah, it's like crumbling the term right, yeah, like screw would be a bigger you don't want to climb. Yeah, you know what I think you know, who introduced me to that word is dirt myth that could that Yeah, big climber buddy of ours, so nice. Yeah, but he uses like just you know, like just like that, he'll talk about, we'll talk about picking our way up through something. He would say, he'll say that word, I belire, what's that? Because just as all it's not good, there's no integrity. Yeah, rotten. Let me start calling certain people chausey there you go? Um, okay, so you climb on up there. You know they all climb on up there. Yep, you go, sleeping, yep, snoozing? You sleep how long? I didn't know how long? And recently I was talking to Mike, one of the other guys on the trip. Your friends, all these dude, still I don't get to talk with all of them, just because you know, life takes you different places. But yeah, I keep in touch with with most of them. Um, so yeah, good good guys. You gotta screw your trip. I didn't try to. Yeah, it changed, it changed significantly at that point. Um. But yeah, they all went up there, and uh and Mike said, yeah, three hours, they're up there three hours. So I was napping for three hours. What are they doing? Taking pictures, taking pictures, hanging out reading books? And he didn't notice it. Grizzly, No, I mean, that's what's crazy. That's That's one of the things that's totally crazy. When I was reading the book, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna get Five guys are up there mosing around and no one takes note of on an island, Right, that's one of the that's not it's five miles long though. Yeah, but that's one of the things that's super just weird, right, I mean, five guys, they're all kind of you know, they're not all focused on one thing. It's not like they're up there filet and fish and paying no attention to what's around him. That's when the fems join. Yeah, I know. They the farm said, you know, we said by to them that morning. They stopped by and um and uh went on their way and we said see you. We're you're not going to see you for the rest of the trip because you're gonna be a full day ahead of us. So um. But the guys were up on the top of this ridge for three hours. It's the highest point around. There's no trees anywhere that you can see. You can probably see thirty fifty miles in every direction. It's like a dome of rock. Yeah. Yeah, can you see down to the water's edge, No, trees to not not in the direction towards camp, not in the direction towards where we were camped, but you can see like that, you can see towards away from us. You could see towards where the bear would have been coming from. What I mean, Stuff Stuff vanishes, man, It's sounded some little crevice or behind a boulder or whatever. There was a lot of debris up there. In terms of I don't want to make too much at that point of it, but just interesting because you wake up and grab your camp just to make a point of it. It's like we've walked him around the mountains for ten days at a time looking for him, and that I can't find them, so right, So I mean you know that, but you know that kind of underlines the point of like why didn't we expect to see one up there? Because people were there a few minutes before I showed up there. Because you wake up from your nap and you grab a little pelican case. The pelican case plays into this. You have a pelican case, your camera gear yea, and go up and catch them on the way down. Yeah. So I wake up and I'm like, oh man, I gotta get up to this ridge. I overslept because apparently you gotta you know, I had I had someone to meet and I didn't know it. It. Got up, grabbed my pelican case which had my camera in its sense of like having like slept too long and now your schedules messed up. Yeah, the sense of urgency like I need to get up there. And Mike was saying that he kind of had the same thing about coming down, right, we should leave, which is weird. Um, I don't know sixth cents or something, but yeah, so I get my stuff, I um start climbing up the ridge. Dan our guide is the he's the last one coming down. I met him halfway and talked about what was up there, and he's like, yeah, there's in a knook shook and um, you know, it's just gorgeous, like explaining to take a look. A nook shook is a stack of rocks um left by um in this case you know Inuit or native people's um. It's used as like a place marker or a navigational aid, or to commemorate something. UM. Some of them are used like four hunting um, so they would set up almost like a funnel, kind of imagined like a fish, yeah, drive line or a fish trap in in rows um to a narrower points they'd like drive caribou herds towards. That is my understanding. I've seen some of those, and you guys are countering a lot of like old mysterious rock structures all over to your trip, which was amazing, um and a constant reminder that we weren't the first people there by any means. Um. So, this was just a soul m a soul knook shook that was up there, so um, we weren't sure exactly what it was, but it was, you know, the highest point around somebody. It was just kind of marking that as a special spot. Um. So I talked with Dan and then continued up the ridge, made my way to the top where it flattened out to these rolling rocky granite domes with the gravel and whatever, and just was walking up, um, away from camp, towards that a knook shook, and uh, walking up one side of one of those domes, and I didn't know it, but a six pound barren ground grizzly bear was walking up the other side of that dome and we were walking straight towards each other, and you first register its presence. How I see this flash of brown fur at the edge at the lip and it's in my peripheral vision and my head snaps up and I'm just like, there's something here, and I think it's a musk oxen. Oh ship, this is a musk oxen. And this is thirty feet away from me. So it's just way too close to be to any animal that you've got to be careful of. And as soon as it kept walking, because it hadn't noticed me yet because I was above its sightline, um, but as soon as it came a little further, it noticed me too. And that's when I realized that it wasn't a musk oxen, but it was a bear. And it was just like worst case scenario. Oh shit, why do you why do you feel that you know how much the bear weight? Um? I made that estimate based on looking at bears uh in captivity Since then, Yeah, so I into looking at things with known waits. Yeah, so part of my um uh self prescribed UM getting over that. This whole situation was like to confront that fear and UM for me, that was going and you know, seeing grizzly bears in person, UM, so that was a challenge. But uh, seeing those bears in in Zoos, I was like, Okay, well that looks a lot like my bear. So it's totally totally in estment based on that. And when it sees you, it doesn't immediately be like I'm gonna mall that, dude. No, the bearon I really had the same reaction, which was what the hell am I looking at? And so we both just stopped and like kind of stepped back and and appraised the situation for a moment. And during that time, I flashed back to that training that we had at min O gin I. I told myself not to run, because that's the one thing that you really can't do, is run. And I pictured the bear mace, which we've discussed was in the tent. Unfortunately it wasn't my person, which means it's totally useless. But I imagine taking it out of its holster, taking off the safety cap, aiming it and firing it, And would have would have been able to do that if I'd had it with me. You feel pretty confident and still staring at you, yep, I mean it would filled his eyeballs. Yeah, time was moving fast, but uh, you know it was like, you think you would have fired it immediately or would you have waited for the first charge. That's a good question. I would have mm hmmm. I would have waited for it to run away before firing it. Run away, hopefully run towards you. You mean no run well sorry, yeah, let me correct myself. I would have been ready to fire and then decided whether to fire based on if it ran away or ran towards me. What are you supposed to do? Are you supposed to kind of do the first aggressive like worn off if there's enough distance? Are you because I wouldn't a bear staring at you your hands up, look big, don't run hey hey, like but not to be trifled with, and you spray oh well, well, and then you know window if I felt like if I mean, you know, as this guy he didn't have his bears, having had bear spray att, I would probably hit it right away, right, I mean, what do you because you got several seconds, I would blast. I would just shoot a blast. I'd like to think I would like they got you know, I remember Joe Rogan, we're talking one time, and he said, everybody has a plan to get punched in the face right. That changes the game a bit. So the guys are always on top about what I would do. Yeah, yeah, well yead you had to wear with all the smack one with a track and pull. Yeah, it was charging him. I heard that. I didn't hear the details. God, I think I would have a heart attack before you have thirty ft check and I don't get here's the bear. You guys are both like, holy ship, that's scary, and you start doing every yelling, not not exactly at first. So our training basically is grizzly bears, get small, make yourself non threatening, um, black bears, make yourself threatening, like assert your dominance. Is the training that we've had UM for our area. So it sounds like that differs a little bit from what you've been told, not mean what I'm like, we've effectively run off, Like we effectively run off a lot of bears that were in that kind of like curious coming towards you. Sure by, hey bear, Hey bear, arms up. If there's multiple people, get hold together, just look like you're not coming at it. But I'm here. What you're like not a caribou calf? Yeah? Interesting, But you know again, i's got planned to get punched in the face. Yeah, and every situation is different, you know, every bear is going to react a little bit differently to various stimuli. So sure, yeah, Like I there's nothing worse than a than what I do quarterback bear blowhard. So please do not think I'm laying now. No, no, I'm not. And what you did is what you did and you're sitting here right now. Yeah. So so part of our training, like I said, with grizzlies is basically like to convey that you're not a threat, and that is backing way slowly, avoiding eye contact, talking to the bear kind of to your point, making it, making it understand that you're not. It's usual. Uh, I think it's going to run into and so in my brain, I've got all these different steps kind of running through my mind, um on what I'm supposed to do, and again just really wanting to run. I don't want to be anywhere near it, but I can't do that, So I just start back in away slowly, arms kind of down at my side. Hey bear, wool bear, it's okay, bear, And my voice is shaking, and the bear is he's thinking about it. He's thinking about it. He's looking at me. It doesn't take very long at all, um, and he goes into like a stationary bluff charge. So he launches on his front positively and grunts at me. He's making a lot of noise, right, yeah, yeah, and uh I listened to your episode with Amber. It sounds like she had a kind of similar uh way that the bear was acting before it decided to charge. Ah, And so grunted at me backing up slowly, and it basically faded from stationary bluff charges just launching onto its front pause to like coming towards me and then stopping like six ft and then ten feet, and I just keep backing up the bears moving six ft moving ten ft yeah, and half yeah bluff charges yeah, and uh, you know, I'm I'm reading it and goring out because it at first, you know, even with those bluff charges, it was still it still felt like it was deciding exactly what it was gonna do, right, yeah, exactly. And so I keep backing up slowly, you know, just mind over matter, telling myself, don't run, don't run, don't run, And it fades from those uh stationary and short bluff charges to a full speed charge and it comes at me. Bears can run, you know, mid thirty mile range, and I'd increased our thirty ft distance by five ft and uh, keep backing up, keep more than he's getting closer. So I mean his charges the brain of closer closer, closer. Yeah, I mean this is happening really fast and closer. He got you before you realize he was gonna get you. Uh probably like within twenty ft about fifteen, Yeah, where he's like like, I feel like I can see his decision shift to Okay, now I'm gonna Now I'm gonna come at this thing. And you know I faded from haybar Boebert, you know at this point yelling obscenities and help and and very likely like if the landscape, like quite likely the first person he's never had any kind of close encounter with, right, Yeah, he's trying to figure out what he's supposed to do. And like I don't know how old this bear was or people have asked, you know, it was a male or female, and I have no idea. There were no cubs. It was just the bear. Um, but yeah, it's just trying to figure out what it's supposed to do. And you know, at that distance fight or flight is pretty I mean it's kind of what color is really close bond? Uh lighter tan, like a little bit darker than blonde. Yeah, yeah, not like shaggy, but like, um, I don't know how long it would be, but kind of middle middle length, I'd say blowing in the wind, kind of a hair, a little bit like the tips be blown in the wind. You have little peaks, peaks, you know, it's not like hanging off. It's kind of sticking out, kind of spiky. So at some point at fift you see something in his head shift. Yeah, and then he's coming at me full speed and you pelt him. Well that that didn't happen yet. I was just like, oh, ship, this is gonna be this is gonna end poorly. And as it gets within that range, like I can feel the ground shaking under my feet from its pause because that gallops just like butom, and it's it's growling at me, and um, do the like do the noise? Like how loud it's doing the noise? I don't think I can. Okay, I'll do a noise. Do you tell me if it's louder Plotter, Well, I was louder than that louder that. Ye, did I have the right sound? Uh more? Projecting that sounds like a dude, it's hard. I remember the noise. You remember it? Remember the noise. Oh it was like grunting, guttural roar. That was like, yeah, I mean like in pulses. It wasn't just like NonStop, you know, it was like kind of sounds good. Yeah, that was good. It came to me. Okay, so that sounded like a series comedies gallop and the grounds are shaken. Yeah. Yeah. And when he's uh and You're like, I'm dead now, I'm dead now. And at this point my conscious decisions are kind of done and my brain is doing everything on its own. And when it was five or ten feet for me, I had that Pelican case with you know, a Nike on DSLR with a couple of lenses and whatever else I needed to run the run the camera for the whole trip. So it's like fifteen pounds and it's the only time I'll throw my camera camera. I typically don't throw it, uh And I was a really bad throw at the time, so I you know, I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, but I did throw my camera practice, not with the same projectile. I'm a lot better thrown now though. Um but I wound back and threw it underhand, like I said, just you know, on instinct, and uh, it flies towards this galloping bear and it hit it square in the nose and with enough force to turn its head all the way to the side. So it pushes this bear's head to the side. It grunts like, oh, like I just punched it. Yeah, and the pelican case goes flying over its shoulder, tumbling off behind it. The bear's momentum keeps going at the same pace. Um, but it can't. I'm sure he didn't like that. But he couldn't see me for a couple of steps and like five to ten ft. I mean that's turned his head. I mean he didn't want to turn his head. The video that dude punching that kangaroo, Oh my god, it's my favorite, my kid's favorite video. Yeah, he turns his head on a kangaroo like slow moll like a person getting punched. Oh yeah, had a plan until it got punched in the face. Yeah, his plan was the bluff charge of Yeah, I didn't feel like that, which I've heard is how it feels. But yeah, I mean, I don't know if he could have stopped at that distance. No, his run just kept coming, his gallop kept going. But he couldn't see where I was, and he couldn't like you know, roundhouse me at that point because he didn't know what to hit. But I jumped out of the way again on instinct and dodged at like bullfighting style as this bears running past me and he just misses you. He just misses me. Yeah, I mean I just jumped out of the way right at the last second, like his momentum carried him past me. And then you know, his head swung around by this point, and he's flailing trying to get at me, and as soon as he passes me, he stops and change changes direction so fast, like faster than I would have ever imagined that an animal like that could move. They're incredibly powerful. Uh turns around and comes at me again, and I do the same move. Rather than throwing the camera case, it's mouths open. Uh. Yeah, I mean it is trying to grab your well, it was like half open like at the ready, right, and then as it would come at me, it would use its paws and use its jaws to try to get me. So it came at me again and I jumped out of the way and it missed me again. Clean miss I don't know if that one was clean. That's uh uh no teeth. Some claus start to hit me at that, you know, because these passes. But that's what let's what like blew me away and reading and the description is like it's like a very lengthy, like detailed description of Yeah, the fact that you could that you dodged it a couple of times it was crazy and it had to actually turn around and come back at you. Yeah. Yeah, so it only kind of makes it worse. I don't. I mean, you know it, I was like, how long am I gonna be able to do this? Well? Right, And it's like, you know, I'm not even deciding to do this, but as my brains thinking through it, it's like, holy sho it, I just dodged it. Not like it very acting at this point, you're not making conrect decisions. Yeah, exactly. I'm wearing chacos, I've got sandals on, which are like really nice for being nimble, but you know, my feet are all exposed and everything is not prepared for this. Did the thought of playing dead and like curling up into a ball and protecting vitals like to back the neck and your your cord. Did that ever come through your head? Um it, it didn't. I mean that is part of what you're supposed to do, like if it makes contact with you, you know, play dead, protect your like lay on your on your stomach and put your legs out and put your fingers in your lace behind your neck to protect your spine and all that stuff. Um which maybe it's you know, you have a plan until you get punched in the face sort of a scenario. But um it, it felt like if I did that then it was just gonna do some real damage. Which I mean, yeah, I don't know, but you do get punched in the face. I do get punched in the face. So I dodge it a couple more times where I was able to quote successfully dodge it, meaning that it didn't bite me. Like you don't know, maybe you're getting like scratched. Oh I I know at this point that I'm getting scratched. You know, I feel he's hit me with his claws down my arm, down my back. I can feel it, and it feels like I'm just getting laid open like as soon as it hits me, but you know, your adrenaline's wine and at the red redline, and you're just moving super fast, and bears moving faster, and every time we got closer and closer, every time I dodged it. And so the next time it its head is now close enough where I can just like turn and bite my leg, and it goes to bite my leg and again super fast and just like we're all spinning around each other, and I pull my leg out of the way at the last second, and then jaws snapshot right next to my leg, and at that same moment, it reaches up with its paw and swipes me across the face and just smacks it just bam. Yeah you're saying it was like as hard as you could just ever imagine being hit. Yeah, with the flat pad. Yeah yeah. I saw the pad when it was a couple inches from my face, and it it is like millisecond where my brain is like oh no, And it was I compare it to like a board wrapped in leather that's just on a hydraulic arm. It's just swinging and when it hits my head, it just doesn't react at all. It's like swatting a bug out of the out of the out of the air and huge amount of power. My head whips to the side and I went flying to the side. And that's when I that's when I truly realized, like there was nothing physically that I could do to fight this bear. It's just so much Yeah, yeah, no fisticuffs And ah did that take you off your feet when he hits you in the face? Yeah? Clean, clean off my feet, like threw me to the side. I'm midair, and then that same paw caught me like around the hip and and threw me down to the ground on my tailbone. And then again like in that same motion. I'm down on the ground and its head is is now right at my right at my thigh. And people are like, so the adrenaline rush take care of the pain, And it didn't it. Uh. I felt its teeth going both sides of my leg. So he does open mouth all the way around your leg, top of my thigh. And this is where like this part of the stories where the playing dead thing gets really interesting. Yeah, because you don't play dead, no, but here he is he's like clearly coming to get you. Yeah, he's got a lot of energy into getting you. Yeah, he's hit you, scratched you, grabs your leg. Yeah. I've been screaming the you know, the last couple of passes, yelling known help, and and all of a sudden you blackout. Yeah, vasovagel response. It bites me. It's just like a switch and I'm out and it's just black. How time do you think goes by when you black out? I don't think it was long. But I was just so sure I was about to die. And it's just like this really surreal sensation to have the switch that saved me. I mean, that's what That's what it gets interesting, man, because so but let me let me focus on the bite a minute. Yeah. Um was the when he beat you and he's kind of like biting you at the seam of your leg. Yeah, right where the leg joins the hip, the pelvis right below that, yeah, like right in that whole junction. Scroll you're for moral artery, Yeah, the growing you could call it the groin. Yeah, yeah, um, are do you think like that's a fatal bite? Aren't you that clear? I mean to me, it was like this is the end. I wasn't like you know, oh, I've got all this, all this really crucial material there that that can be the end. It was just like, I am about to die because this will not be the only injury. This bear is gonna do much more to me. And yeah, I'm not gonna dodge it once I'm laying on the ground and he pass out and it pass out. And I played that incredibly effectively. In Michigan, we call that playing possum. Yeah, yep, exactly. But you know what, you know it's aptly named because I didn't know this until I was talking to our colleague Sam longern Um. Playing possum is not intentional. Yeah, they're not like I'll play possum. They like just get overwhelmed. And yeah, going to a state, like it's not like it's not voluntary, he goes into a state. Yeah, so very similar. Yeah, they become overcommon is going to a state. Yeah, isn't like that when when animals are attacked by a predator and then go limp And it's not that you're necessarily Yeah, it's an evolutionary defense mechanism. So how long did think you passed out for? Do you have any estimation? My estimation is not long at all. My total time away from camp was really short. Oh that's a good way. Yeah, so maybe not minutes. Yeah, right, it could have been less than minutes. In minutes. And what position do you wake up in? Uh? Fetal position? Face down, like degrees from how fetal position? Face down like some kind of yoga thing, or like you're on your side but your face is turned like child's post. Child, I want you to get down and show. I mean like in my mind, and I was a little disoriented when I came to, but it was just like, hey, he's down, he's rising from his seat, he's getting child's post. Everybody, Okay, he's on his knees. He's Oh really that's how you won't go that's child's post. But in the air. Again, that's a strange position to wake up in. Yeah, like that's gonna wait, that's like an awake But I would I thought you meant that you somehow we're like fetal position, Like you're sleeping on your side in the fetal position, but your face was cocked down into the tundra. Yeah, I know, I as as I can tell. It was that like curled in a ball, face down, knees and knees and elbows and face down to the ground and you open your eyes and what do you see? Uh, the world's kind of spinning, And then I see the horizon and then I see that the bear is still there, but it's running away at a trot, and it's checking me out as it goes. And at this point, I agree inconscious at the point when he had you like he had you dead to right, yep, let the feast begin. Well, And that's the that's the key difference between like a predaceous encounter and a defensive encounter. So that's what gives such credence to like the playing dead things. That's some bitch goes through all that and really, you know, like someone tells you something and you like don't believe. Then later you're like, oh no, he really didn't. Like he was like, I'm sorry, I found you threatening. Um had you stop being threatening? And I left? I mean, like, my yep, you seem threatening. Yeah, that's all this was exactly, you know, And that and that kind of a lines up with how it acted throughout the encounter too. It's like, what am I dealing with this? What do I do? Yeah? And also went quiet limp. But he's like, yeah, all right, drop, my chuck is done. I gotta go. I gotta put some ice on my snout from that Pelican case and as so, and you like you don't know, I mean he could come back and get you. Oh yeah. I was absolutely terrified that was about to happen. So I played dead consciously at that point, totally averted my eyes so I could just see him, wait for him to go completely. Like I said, he's just watching me the whole time. And are you feeling, um, what's your understanding of your injuries at this point, You're like so out of it. Uh my feeling my my feeling slash understanding is I don't care? Because I was you felt very alive. Yeah. I was so sure I was about to die. And then it was like getting a second chance, like euphoria. It was. Yeah. I was just totally totally fork, like so excited that I was seeing things again. And then when I saw that bear again, it was like back to dread. Oh ship, it's still here, Like, what's it gonna do now? So I just was you know, my mission at that point was do everything that I could to make it not think that I was back in the fight and I think that its job really was done and that it was able to leave. Um, but I was absolutely terrified. This is like, you know what, it needs a little bit more tossing around or whatever. Yeah, to go back and shake that thing and eat it. Yeah, yeah, which you know sometimes happens. What's weird too about it and about bears in general, is um, it's eating all man. You have to assume it's killed neaton, muskox calves, it's scavenge muskox carcasses, kills the neats, caribou calves, scavenges carcasses, eats, marmots, whatever the hell it gets hands on, right, And here it's got like a hundred fifty pounds. It was still warm protein that hasn't showered in months. Yeah, Like like what is their comprehension of Like two days later would they have gone back up there and eight you you know, I mean like, what is this comprehension of? Like what's food? Not food? It's like I killed this big thing. Yeah, it's made out of meat, But I will continue my wanderings to look for a little ground squirrels and lemmings and patches of berries whatever else comes around. Like that's not food right, Well, I mean that's the that's what's so like bizarre. But what is in their head? Well, and that's that's like why are you not food? That's the difference right between a healthy bear and a and a bear that's not getting in a food or that's sickly. You know, it's it looked good like this bear did not look scrawny. You know, it's well built. Um, you just didn't smell right, Yeah, I'm not. I'm not what it normally perceives as food. I don't you know, look like that. It's just it's so curious, like what makes it? Uh, what that decision process is? Like I have a feeling it relates a lot to you know, what happened before this situation. You know, is it is it is everything going well, you know for this bear or is it in dire straits? Is it going to use this opportunity to have a meal or is it just going to get away because you know, it wasn't looking for a meal or Yeah, like the something about the scenario was alarming enough to it and unusual enough that it just wasn't in a like eating mood. It was in a save myself, protect myself and get out of here, like I don't know what this is, right, I don't know what's going on. Yeah, here's my window of opportunity to get away, right, Yeah, he's as scared as you are. Yeah, exactly. So it turns and goes and it disappears over the ridge and I can't remember. I feel like thought to grab your camera. Yeah, for some reason, I was I have I had things I brought up with me. I gotta bring my things back that you talk. You thought to go get your camera. Very practical in that situation, as Yeah. Then I haul asked, and I'm just checking my six the whole time, trying to make sure that it's not coming back. And then you realize your feet are bleeding. My feet are bleeding. I didn't realize that until I was don't coming down the ridge to camp. But I knew that my leg was screwed up because it uh, it hurt quite a bit, and I checked it and thought it was covered in blood. It was just covering bear saliva. Turned tail and started going back to camp because I was like, I need to get back there before my adrenaline rush wears off, because I knew it was significantly injured I just didn't know what those injuries were. And you know, if I had a clock ticking or whatever, um, and he's gonna come back and kill you, right, Yeah. I definitely felt like I had that thing to worry about. So I needed to get back to the guys, back to the bear poppers, back to the bear spray and everything that all the support that I had back there. So describe the wound like, you get down and they strip you. Yeah, they kind of run up to meet you. You're screaming like holy hell. Yeah yeah, And and so they all are starting to get you know, all the stuff, and and they come up to get me and and help carry me down the last little bit because by the time I got to the bottom, I couldn't move my leg anymore and I had scraped and bruises all over. Um. But the main wound was right at the top of my leg. They're one of the canines went into full depth of the tooth and a puncture wound right at the that joint between my leg and my hip girdle quarter inch from my femoral artery. Um that you if you hit that, you'd have been that's it. Yeah, I probably would have been no, you can't. As as you explained the book, you smell the complication, but there's no like immediate source of help, right, serious help. Yeah. And I mean even if there had been an immediate source of help me, it's like hours. Yeah. And and a fhemoral bleed is minutes three ish minutes, you know, good a good illustration. That's black Hawk down when he you know, they're trying to put some hemust out on the on the femoral bleed from that, it's just like spurting and you bleed out really fast. Um. So that would have been really bad. Right next to that puncture when that same canine had pushed in to the full depth but hadn't. Um, it wasn't a puncture when it's just a really bad compression when with some surface injuries. Um, that compressed all the tissue and did some serious damage to the muscle. Um, but wasn't like bleeding. And I had several more of those wrapping around my thigh from the other teeth, so the whole my whole leg had been in its mouth, but it was really um. Just the main puncture was the source of bleeding, which was super lucky because we were able to control it pretty well. Like I don't say, like, what hap did the tips of your toes? Do you have not have any idea? I don't Like I said, I was wearing sandals and the tips of my left big toe and the and the Jason to's are just like sliced clean off like evulsions. Um, that's my buddy. Ronnie hates sandals. He's gonna love this because he lovesn't like him because what if there's a volcano or you get attacked by her grizzily. Oh no, this is gonna be like, this is gonna back him off. You want to be nimble in that situation. We we often have a debate about whether sandals are okay or not because how you're gonna defend your family. And we got a great email from a guy who wanted being in a micro burst which like felt like two trees on his property and all his creating damage his house. And he was out in his sandals when it happened, and he did everything is he should do, And only later after this whole thing played out, someone's like, where's your shoes? And he realized he'd done it all barefoot. His take is doesn't matter when it really matters, it doesn't matter. Yep, exactly like he had no idea. Yeah did he done all this like crazy shit barefoot? Yeah, never occurred to him. You don't think when it matters. You know what you got on your feet, You're gonna do what you need to. It could play in those if you did receive some injuries from having sandals on, like Alex did, and then you had to continue on and you weren't at your house and in a town, Yeah, it could play into the I'm guessing, especially if you're on a rocky hillside. Rocks can be sharp, yeah, and you're getting tossed around and you're jumping and left and right, you very easily could have I mean, it wouldn't be hard right now to go outside, take your shoes off and kick a rock and probably and probably you know, replicate the same. That's not what I think happened. What's your theory. I think that when you were passed out, he very delicately took his teeth and just nipped off the end of some of your toes and then he tasted badly and he's like, yeah, yuck, feet, I'm gonna run out of here. You should have looked around next to your pelican case. Your toe tips are probably there. Yeah, now, a raven probably ate him at this point, at the bottom of the hill, they strip you down. Are you now, um? How how with it are you at this point? I'm super with it? Are you like? I will live? Well? I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna live, but I'm gonna ask I mean ask Dan because he knows better than me, and I think that's you know, a quote in the in the book, and he's like, yeah, you're you're gonna live, Like, okay, good. I was pretty sure, but I just need to check because you know, you still got to be shaken. Oh yeah, I mean I'm I'm uh just terrified and coming down off of a you know, crazy adrenaline rush, um and coming off of that, you know, I almost pass out again and um. But you know, one of the important things when you're um assessing someone who's just had something crazy happened that you know they're not positive what will happen is making sure that they don't have hidden injuries somewhere or distracting injury that's making you miss what the important thing is. So he did a good job of doing that full assessment and making sure that these are the thing these are the things that are going on right now. So did during the attack, did you lose your sense of time? Or does it seem like things played in the way they should have played? So like, when you review it, does it seem like it took too long or went too fast or does it feel normal to you? It feels normal, with the exception of the um laps in consciousness like that, there's just no actual sense of time. It's kind of like when you go to sleep. You know, he might wake up and feel like you slept for a minute and you've actually been asleep for a super long time. So I had no actual sense for that, but the rest of it plays in real time. What was different was, um, my senses and my thought process. We're just going so fast, Like I didn't have to wait for my brain to think through things. Um it was either helping me just make conscious decisions so quickly, or making decisions for me based on you know whatever. That was best. After we had a run in with a bear, it wasn't anything like yours. Hurt UM inspired me to read a little bit about uh, how time passes during like near death experience moments right um extremely high stressed moments. And there's these different responses, which is um, you can become fixated on a detail and miss a lot tunnel vision, or you can become aware of general pandemonium and not have details. Uh, the lapses and how time works is later like like your your sense that it went fast or I saw my life flash before my eyes. Some people think it's something that gets laid over in memory and that you probably didn't experience it that way, but you can't. When you go to remember it, everything compresses or not because of all the things that you missed when you were fixated on a detail or living like a detail list environment. Meaning when if you fall off the roof and land on the ground and you recollect what the fall was like, that's probably not what the fall was like. Yeah, it gets confused and you try to explain the event right because the event didn't play out like it took away your your sense of self awareness, like your your your mental system went out the window. The whole way you calibrate your experiences and understand the passage of time, like you were in in a situation that made no sense to you and so all the things you normally do to sort of like keep your equilibrium so to speak, in life, are are shed, you know. Saying that when they're training, like like people that are training like first responders and things. Is if you image you come into a horrible there's been an explosion, and you come into the explosion and there's a severed arm um, but there's still catastrophe laying out around you. Getting people to be like, there's a severed arm but I will still be aware of the fact that there's a building that's going to fall right, or there's a person that that arm came from, yeah, and not that you come in and you only see that, or that you come in and you're just overwhelmed by the immensity of all the things that make no sense to you and you see nothing right like, and I think that, like, what kind of person you are there? I became interested in that because I feel like the different people in our group when we had an experience like this, different people in our group revealed to be different versions. I'm the shitty version. I was detailed, just a detail, one detail, one detail, one like one crystalline detail is what I have in my head. And I can't fill the experience, and because all I have in my head is one thing that was probably right. It was probably like flash, but in my mind that drag down for an eternity, right, And so I look back and I can't make sense of the time. I can't understand how people's experiences. I just have this like thing. It's so annoying. And there were major things going on around me that I was completely unaware of. But in a sense, everybody had that too. Everybody had emergial body recollects what anybody else did. In those two seconds, he became everybody became singular and focused. Together, you are one, single and focused. Everybody knew their own experience, but all the people had a chronology, had at least a personal chronology. I don't even have a personal chronology. To me, it was a thing. It was an image, and the image started, the image edit and it was over. Other people are like, oh no, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. I have no idea what you were doing, but I don't know what I was doing. But I lost it all. It's like reading about your thing, like you you have whatever you did, you developed, maybe in recollection like a pretty like this happened, that happened, this happened, this happened, and deliver it a pretty plausible way. Yeah, and that was I mean, there's so much of it that's just incredibly vivid in my memory. Um. And then there's a lot of it that I had to dig super deep for the recall. Um. And that was one of the real challenges in writing it was was going back to that spot in my mind and just pulling those memories out of the deep storage that some of them were hidden in. UM. That's what I was going to ask about because the way that you right, it's so detailed, I mean, the you know, from being in the moment with the memory too. And I was going to ask, I know that you kept a journal on this, but you know, is recall different from and we can't really know from from the exact moment that you're experiencing, you know, how the wind feels against your skin in or the smell of something that you recall, and then and then articulating kind of the play by play in such great detail, you know. Yeah, And that's I mean, that was um, one of the I mean, that's always the challenge with writing memoir especially, and that journal was incredibly valuable for me. I journaled, you know, throughout the trip, so I had a very accurate log of every single meal we ate and there and then you also had people there too. Yeah, so that was valuable. I don't want to. I don't want to, like, uh, I got a couple more questions for you, sure, But first I want to just explain one thing. How many miles at this point? How many miles are you from the nearest piece of aircraft? Um, we're we have like over a hundred miles of paddling left. And then it's like I think it was it was like sixty five ish miles from the nearest aircraft, but there wasn't an aircraft available there. So it's like when like hundreds of miles to a helicopter. Yeah, I mean wherever the nearest one from that would have been at that point, I suppose, which hundreds, maybe thousands, I don't know. One of the other settlements down Hudson Bay, which I don't even know which one the next one is might have had an aircraft. Yeah. The reason I bring this up is I don't wanna Um, We've covered a lot of ground. Yeah, I just want to know, like I want to leave the chronology to be that here you are right, you've been mauled? Yeah, what next and the things that play out? Yeah after this yeah, um, we'll leave, okay, But what I want to know as my last question, how do you perceive grizzly bears? Now? Does it really bother you the idea that someone would hunt to grizzly bear because of this happening, like hunted this specific grizzly bear? Do you do? Can you find that you like would be like generally I'm on easy with people hunting because it's a contentious thing. Did it make you be like I respect him so much? Or do you feel that they're they're an animals on as there's healthy populations. Do you think of it as being like a mythic creature? Now? Is it like like what's your forget that part of it, forget like whether people show harum or not. I guess let's start with this, like how do you view not that bear? But how do you view bareness? Now? Yeah? Is it sacred? I have a tremendous respect for bears. Um sacred? I mean I would probably put my bear on that spectrum. Um. You know, I for me personally, I don't I don't think I could hunter bear myself. And you said you didn't want them to kill that bear, right, That's a real common thing I found with people. Yeah, not not they because a lot of people get mauled by bear. Didn't kill it. But in the moment, yeah, but later, I mean in the moment I would have defended myself. There's like a sense of forgive. There's a sense of forgiveness that seems to set in with people about a particular animal. Yeah, I mean you know bear, the mauld Amber that we had. Yeah, that bear is dead now, Yeah, I think I I listened to that. I happened to listen to that episode where you guys discussed that and then she didn't want it to be killed. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean once that's the that's the real challenge with bears is um, you know, once they start having these human encounters like it can it can just have such a detrimental effect on those bears. Um, And it can lead to you know, more and more problems and and eventually the bear having to be destroyed, which is you know, too bad. But this one just vanished into the landscape. Mine just vanished. We went out and looked, and they looked for it, and they were gonna see how it responded to people, basically determine if it was going to be a problem bear and then take you know, I like the strategy for that. Well, what we do, person, go up to it, Bob here and we'll see how it. Eric from Bob goes up. You know, Bob's quick with a shotgun. Bob was quick with the with a firearm. But like, I think back on on that explanation and like, really, is that actually what you guys do? Maybe it's like a very odd way to uh do that, but you know, at the same time, so yeah, they didn't have to do that, so I didn't have to worry about it. So I like to think that it's still out there and you know, doing its thing. It could have done a lot more to me, I mean, you know too earlier points that it could have decided that I was a meal, or it could have you know, bitten chunks out of me, or or maimed me for life, or or killed me straight up. Um, but it didn't. And uh, I'm incredibly appreciative of it for that, and Ultimately, it was just a bear being a bear and doing bear things in its own habitat, so it didn't do anything wrong. M hm, So I appreciate it. You got any follow ups? Yeah, um, I mean you touched on a little bit. But tell me how, Like, how do you think it affected everybody else on the trip? I mean Dan's like a major player, right because he's sort of he really has to take over at this point as the trip leader. But like your four bodies that are your aged, like, are they like holy sh it? Now, Okay, I can't sleep because we know there's a bear right near us and there could be more of these down the you know, waterway that we might come up on some more like, how did they change their experience for the remainder of the trip? Yeah, I mean it's um, it dramatically changes the trip, right, I mean the focus is different, the sense of vulnerability is totally different, and the and the responsibilities are are pretty different too. So I mean all of those guys had a lot of extra pressure on them to deal with that, um and they handled it well. Um, you know, they rose the occasion and and helped helped us get to where we needed to get. And um, della it a lot, but I'm very cognizant of the fact that from that point on it was just a very different trip, um. And I'm sure that they were seeing things differently at that point, um, because it's pretty and I would imagine at the time that even though they rose the occasion, maybe they did or did not like seize the moment and just say this is how it is. You know. It's it's hard to do that sometimes, especially as a seventeen year old. But I'm guessing now looking back on it. Yeah, I'm not saying they're happy you got bit by a bear, but right, like that's the kind of experience that like really can build a person. Yeah, I mean it's incredibly transformative, you know, for me and for those guys. I mean, you know, just just being a support person, uh, to a situation like that is, um, it sticks with you forever. I Mean, it's kind of like with search and rescue whatever. You're not the person that's um, you're not the victim, um, but you're they're making a difference in this situation that's just like incredibly unique and and very elemental, and that's very transformative. Right, I got nor question Are you glad you got attack by the bear? I don't know if i'd say I was glad I got attack by You're now glad you got attack by a bear? Forget the book? Yeah, I mean like we're trying to remove the book. But remove the book. I mean I would it. I'd be a different person if I hadn't been. Um. So in a lot of ways, I feel like it was um grounding and helped me to kind of, um, appreciate everything in life just that much more. Um. It's hard to say, like, yeah, I enjoy getting mulled by bear, but um, yeah, yeah. I mean we're a product of our experiences, right. You know, would I go back into that trip again? Absolutely? Um, Would I take precautions to change how that situation would have gone? Yes? So, UM, But I'm it's an experience that has been incredibly important to me and directional in my life. UM. So it's hard to think about that not being there. What you got. Um, I'm curious about the trauma of it all, um, and that there's there's a lot there. So we can make this short and wrap it up, but I'm curious about that and if um, you've kind of been if you define yourself as and are kind of defined by others as like the bear attack guy, right, like and if that has colored everything else afterwards, even though that was a singular and unique experience, right and it's super short experience. UM. Yeah, I mean that trauma took a little while to kind of um categorize in my brain and kind of put put where it needed to go. UM. While I was still out in the woods, you know, it was just like bears everywhere, not literally, but I was perceiving them everywhere. UM. And then, you know I talked earlier about one of my steps was to kind of get myself back into situations that would um help me overcome barriers that I was now experiencing. You know, going to zoos and actually seeing live grizzly bears was one of them. Um. Getting back out into the woods uh in a in a way that I had enough support around me that I could do that and go through that evolution of of fear to kind of having control of the situation everything. My family and friends were really important for that, UM. And that took several years of kind of easing back into it, and I looked like Rambo for the first couple of years going back to the boundary waters. It's like, why didn't need to tactical vest and the machete, so the club, I didn't carry club, but yet I had yeah right, yeah, like a spiked maze. Yeah. So you know, you can troll what you can and and I never wanted it to define me in the sense of like I can't go do these things anymore. So I was very intentional about going back out there and doing those things. Getting back in the race man, Yeah, exactly, get back up on the horse and um, you know, being comfortable with the fact that I might be uneasy or my experience might be different at this point, but um, you know, managing my risks appropriately and then getting back out there. Um, you know, when I I was seventeen, I went. I started my senior year of high school three weeks after I was attacked. Yeah, because you're writ you're seing your paper about Oh yeah I was in this summer. What am I going to do? Yeah exactly, So that Phil, I mean it sounds crazy and intense and I can't even comprehend it. Yeah, thanks a lot. I love it. I love it. How you enjoin your cameras pill it's a learning experience. I think it's going well though. I think we're gonna at this work nice. Yeah, what we're talking about there is Phil. Go ahead. I just gon had some more you know, bearing and canoe questions, But go ahead. Phil's filming where I don't know, we're gonna like start releasing highlight videos and whatnot. That's true. Yeah, there's a test run. You may or may not see some of this, but you will see things in the near future. That is the plan. It's let's fill the podcast engineer. We're gonna have to really like gussie ourselves up and pick our nose planning. I'm gonna change everything you start. You know, Larry King always said that so long as suspenders, suspenders, leaning forward, your elbows on the table some bis at different hours like that, Uh you didn't. You're close to finishing meeting and finish you're like what forty some miles right from where the rest of the crew ended up taking out at the point where I got Evack, well, when I got Evec yeah, closer like but I was trying to leave those details as like, uh, I don't want to do his whole damn book. Well, I skipped ahead right to the very very end. So you got to eve act, pursue your line of questioning, sustained whatever you say. You had to Uh, you had to bring a guy, a guy with you when you when you pulled out. UM. I know for a lot of people, like when you're on a big trip like that you set out to do as a as a beginning and end and if you don't finish, it's like naws at you. Yeah, so as a nawn at you, you guys are gonna have to go back and go do the whole six hundred miles again and finish her up. Yeah, summit fever, right, Yeah, Um, I want to go back. I don't know if I want to do the same trip exactly. Um, but there is kind of that sense of like, oh, you didn't quite finish the trip that you had set out to do, but you did the trip that that you were dealt um. So that's kind of part of the whole vibe of like coming to terms with um with this and really with any long expedition like that. You get back and it's like you have to recondition yourself to the world. Um, it's a hard transition. So yeah, somebody I'll go back. Good. Last question, I promised, that's some all the questions you want. Man twice and I forget the chronology, but twice, you guys lose a canoe? Correct, not on this trip, once on this trip, he wants on this trip. Yeah, like lost lost, But I thought you guys got it back one time. Well, so one time it's like slip it barely slid away. Yeah, is that the one you're referring to, right, But then another time you is actually lose a canoe and it's gone, gone, gone, like it's not coming back. You guys only have two at that point. Yeah, I'm just wondering, like what sort of like what's the protocol for beaching, tathering, putting. How does the canoe that you're so dependent upon get taken away? Yeah, well you did it. You were you were crippled up. You did a shitty job, yank get up on the beach, yeah, you know, and and that that environment is that you just you just pull it up on the beach with crippled or not, and you tip it upside down and that's it for the night. So our our protocol was to like pull it up out of the water and then weigh it down so that the wind didn't take it. Um. And what happened in our situation was we had like this century storm um that came up. I actually pulled up footage of it like a couple of years ago, from two thousand five, and it looks like a hurricane going across northern Canada, um. And it ended up the water level rose a lot and it ended up taking it away. UM. So basically the protocol for securing your canoes is just that secure your canoes. So uh, you know, next time, I'd probably drive a stake in the ground or something um, or just like bring them so far up from sure it's like we're sitting, you know, we got bigger things to deal with if the waters rise to this point. Um. But uh yeah, so that was that was hard. You guys were doing everything right. It was just such a circuit extreme circumstance. Yeah. I could not have foreseen it. Compounding factors, yeah, right, compounding factors. And and not to mention it was like super cold and stormy the night before, and so we're all just struggling and you know, dealing with the aftermath of a bear attack. And yeah, so that was that was painful, pretty incredible for a group of seventeen year old kids, so very learning experience. And give you guys a lot of props man for not hanging out with those girls longer too. I gotta I don't think I could have stuck to you that we're pretty much seventeen year old Yanni. Yeah, you guys were very mature, you know, Okay, Alex Messenger the title of the book, The twenty nine Day Surviving a Grizzly Attack in the Canadian Tundra. Alex, uh, thank you, thank you making the trip out. Yeah, thanks for telling us your tail. Yeah, thanks for having me. It was fun. Take care everybody,