00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is Me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten in my case, underwear listening podcast. You Can't Predict Anything presented by on X Hunt creators are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store, nor where you stand with on X. Okay, we'll get the introductions in a minute, but I want to I guess I want to ask you guys one thing first, because this is the thing I always try to explain to people, Um, what are the things as outfitters, as guides and you guide mountain hunts? What things prevent people from realizing their dreams? I'm talking about clients of the things that prevent clients from realizing their dreams when they go on a guided mountain hunt. Is it ger or like r Is it that their boots don't fit right? You know? I I think a lot of it there. We've taken a lot of people really don't know how to hunt. Uh. I'll be I'll say, well, let's go over here, and I can hear them. They're they're talking loud there, They're they're heavy with their feet on the ground. They don't sometimes realize or sense the fact that that mere thudding through the timber is something that animals pick up on very quickly. And uh, in fact, I've I've done some experiment and when I've trying been trying to make a stick or a snake, I've taken sticks, and uh, with my walking, I'll change up my rhythm of my walk so that I'm not known as a man walk through the timber. And I think it's it's been advantageous. But those are things that I've observed from people that they don't know how to hunt an animal, how to sneak on an animal, and they just take for granted that maybe the outfit is gonna just magically be able to beam one over on the hill and they're gonna be able to shoot it. And so there is it's a it's I think it's a learned you know, I've had to tell hunters, you guys have got a step more quiet, watch what you're stepping on. Um, because if they if they're merely there just to let you be their eyes, the whole experience is really not a realize full hunting experience. I want to get okay, go ahead, they land, and then we're gonna do our intros. I just want to lead in with the sizz Well. I was gonna say from my my standpoint, one of the biggest challenges is a physical capacity of the hunter. UM. Obviously at the elevation that we hunt at, UM, guys coming from two thousand foot of elevation, if they're in poor shape, poor condition, they struggle. Obviously we hunt with horses, but to get them from the horse to where we need to get the shop made, sometimes that window closes before they can get in position. They're huffing and puffing and out of breath because the hike, you know that fifty ye hards away from the horse just blew their doors off, and they struggle to get their guns steady enough to be able to make a good shot. So physical fitness, physical fitness, very important. Is shooting. Is shooting ability up high on the list most definitely, and knowing where your gun shoots, UM, and knowing obviously the range that we shoot, you know, not we don't like anything much over four fifty, you know, but we want guys to feel comfortable with those longer ranges. UM. And if they're coming from you know, the eastern side of the state, sometimes those shots that they take aren't necessarily they're not used to that long range shot and so spending time behind the scope learning the timing of the cross hairs, I'm getting that down is a key part to being able to make a good shot. Uh. My last comment before we do to our intros is, uh, I'm speaking to well Landing and Stuart. Uh. My favorite quote from the week was when Stewart was telling a story about the second nicest bark he'd ever laid eyes on, and the client took a shot and as he expressed it, he said, and he didn't even spook it. Yes, hold on, I'd like to find I'd like to find out since you have to ask where shooting ability falls in in the ranking, I'd like to know where a positive mental attitude falls in in the the ranking, to you know, to help someone's success, Like, is that high very important? Well, there's no doubt it's important because I think and I've hunted in a few other areas and uh, one of the things is can be very discouraging to two people are thinking we're spotting four hundred yards away across the canyon or five. I don't know if I've got that kind of ability, and so there's there is a mindset that because a lot of our clients have been, like Landing alluded to that they're shooting maybe a hundred yards because that's what their terrain and and uh, you know, the scrubbery and trees allow anything more than that, then they don't see the animal. And so when they come out here, they're kind of at awe at the fact that they can see an animal for such a distance and trying to close that gap mentally to think, you know, there's a chance. And that's quite honestly, I believe that's where some of the experience, you know, Landon's have been dragging him up there since he was a four year old boy. Um, I've been up there a little over thirty years now, and it makes a difference when you know the terrain, when you watch the behavior of animals when they're under pressure, where they go, what they do, Um, that's what that can That can help if if they have confidence in the outfit ors from that perspective as well. But the pausitive attitude, I mean, I've had guys that when I got out there, they just thought this is way too tough, it's way too physical. You know, I've got the horse to deal with. You know, there's too much Uh. How how long does it take for that to creep in on someone? I think it depends on a lot of the circumstances they come in contact with. You know, if if they have a bad experience right at the front of the hunt, you know, where a horse spook him or has a tendency to intimidate them because of us situation. I think we've seen guys it impacts them to the point that they're nervous to get on the horse. And there's been some guys that just to throw the talent and said, hey, well we're done, We're not hunting anymore, you know, we've got too much to lose or whatever. Um and So I think there's just a lot of things that can happen depending on how strong they are when they come mentally, um, how where their confidence level is and their ability physically um and uh. And then you know that first day, what they see, the excitement that's generated from the animals, and there's a combination of things. I think they play into that. Now let's go, well, um, I'm landing Peterson. I've been, like my dad said, I've been with them going ever since I was a four year old boy. UM. I loved hunting from a just beginning, and I always I would get left at home and I hated that. UM. So when I had the opportunity at the age of twelve to go on, you'll be able to go up there when there weren't clients on your camp. So we went up in the summertime, and that's when we would do this, the fishing and stuff. But I wasn't allowed. You know, I didn't get to go up when we were doing a hunt because I was too small and I didn't have the physical capacity to keep up. And so I look forward to that, you know, when I got to do that at the age of twelve. So I've been up in the hills every year since I was twelve years old, hunting up in that area. And you're you're born in Coltville, whelming I was born actually in Price, Utah and moved here when I was a year old. So yep, and tell everyone the name of your guys business, Crooked Sky Outfitters is the name of our business. UM, and I I bought in with my dad as an actual partner. UM bought an uncle out who had been a partner with my dad. I bought him out, uh six years ago and uh, and it was I just was my dream to have an opportunity to step into that role. My uncle was getting to a point physically where he wasn't able to keep up, and so then I was able to step in by him out and become an equal partner with my dad in the business. Adam Weatherby, Yeah, it was your second time on the show. Yeah, kind of old news around here, I guess right. Yeah, it was on back in the spring, I think with Brenda, my wife, and uh, but I'm Adam Weatherby. Uh this should be your job to tell everybody what we've just been up to in the mountains. Yeah, you can do it, or can do it so anyways, Adam Weatherby weather be seventy four year old firearm's business, get to run it. Took it over from my dad, who took it over from my grandpa. That's what we do. But I mean, what we've been up to, like what we've been up to you so well, I gotta call well, you're honest. We started talking back earlier this year, and I knew that Johannese and Steve had a bunch of points for mule deer in Wyoming, and I had moved to Wyoming, move my business there. Let me back you up for a second. Just sure people are tracking, okay, meaning we had applied unsuccessfully for whelming eight years. Well it's not quite okay, go ahead putting in for put different points. There's some regions in wow I mean it's nonresidents. Break it down. Break it down that some regions in in Wyoming that are harder to draw than others. And get a tag in and Stephen Janice here wanted to go shoot a nice buck, and so they put in for several years. And if you put in unsuccessfully you can obtain a point, or else you can just buy a point. Correct. I think I think a lot of those years we probably bought the point. How much is the point for the mule deer thirty for an animot for you put in over three bucks over a period of eight years, that's correct, And then you bought the tag, puts in the perspective which probably cast another few in boxed. Actually, then I want to say the tags were around a few six. Yeah, that's about what a non resident ELK tag is. But what about a half non Uh it was four hundred fifty. I can't remember now what the non resin on the deer is. So there we were, so there you were. So you guys Janice and Steve here had then put together this hunt that really started a couple of years back talking to a family member of these guys about doing this kind of dream southwestern Wyoming high country mule deer hunt. Yeah you guys that Uh well you know what law Stewart introduced himself. Oh yeah, yeah, real quick, okay, and I'm Stewart Peterson. I have been in this outfitting business with initially with my uncle. Uh started back in the mid to late eighties, so right at about the thirty year mark, I've been marching around up there. I was raised in Cokeville as well. Um raised on a ranch, a cattle ranch here, and then I went to school for a bit and decided that wasn't really quite what I was interested in. But I I wanted to come home and ranch, and Dad and mom said no, we we think you need to get an idea what you want to do better than ranching. So I discouraged becoming a cattle rancher. They discouraged me from kind of because things worked tough, you know, we it was always toun. I grew up with was six, There were six siblings in the family, and we lived on a little house south of town, south of Cokeville, about seven miles and we uh kind of nicknamed that place the little House on the Prairie. And that's where we grew up with very little were there were six kids in a two bedroom home. Um, so very tight quarters has grown up and we just didn't seem like there was that much money. And I think that's what boiled down to for mom and dad and just said, hey, you've got to have a better life than that. It was a struggle. It was a wrestle, and so we that's what we grew up with. And and uh, I took a lot of shop classes in high school, would working that type of stuff, and and so I was pretty intrigued with that. And so I've been doing uh custom home rustic furniture cabinetry for a number of years now, and that's what's been my main livelihood. The outfitting has been my love. That's been what I've wanted to do. And and you know, of course in a while, I mean the draw has always made it a difficult challenge for us. We can book hunters, and we would book year after year the same hunters if they could get tags year after year. And so what it's uh, it's you know, really been a difficult path to try to hang on and make sure that we're able to feed a string of horses through the winter. And and uh we do do the summer pack trips and that helps uh to cover some of those costs. But the reality of it is is that the the outfitting business is something that I've enjoyed doing, um ever since I got into it. But it was something that I inspired, had aspired to do because my dad was a guide and I couldn't wait till when I was Back in our day, we had to be fourteen to go hunt, and I begged Dad to go up before that. He said, no, you can't tell your fourteen. So when I was fourteen, it was it was like having Christmas hit the week that we could go and it was mostly elk cunning at that time because the school led us out for a couple of days on the weekend so we could go up and and you know, four days we could be up in camp and I just ate that up you know, and of course I've always loved horses, and he had just really seem to meet my need to be up in the mountains on a good horse at the risk of getting ahead of ourselves. Uh, And Adamburn will come back to the whole what we're doing. But if you were discouraged by your parents from being a rancher, how did it feel when your son, who's sitting here, Landing got into ranching. Well, I I I've I've had the you know, the frank conversation about you know, it's it's a good life, but it's a tough life. You know, the markets are up there. You know, you never know sometimes what your crops will do to you, Um, how the calves are gonna come in a way out so that you've got you know, what the price will be for those calves. So it's it's one of those it's it's you know, just about as good as maybe going to Las Vegas and and uh playing a chip because so he could be doing just as good he Mike could just I mean, but but Landing is going about it in a way that uh, you know, perhaps being a little smaller unit he can do. My dad was in the corporation with with two other brothers, and so they grew you know, and they built quite a cowherd and uh, and that was just how they did things, but there was never much that came back to it. Now they've been since been able to move some of the land that they had acquired and had paid off and and it's made their lives comfortable. For Heaven's sakes, sir, my, my folks are eighty two, so it came late in life for them to really enjoy some of the benefits that could have been earlier. And I think that's really why they steered me away. And I wouldn't say that they I think they're proud of what Landing is doing, as I am, um, but I think they've probably you know, crossed their fingers at markets will stay good and that the uh you know, hay prices won't be you know, so costly. So all of that comes into play. But it's I'm I've been excited for him to be able to have mostly that his home back home. We have, you know, they're cute little family there on a regular basis in our home and we just enjoy we enjoy the family scene. So for us, maybe as much as anything. I've been glad that that was one way to getting back home because there's not a lot of opportunities. But his entrepreneurial spirit has uh has compelled him to be able to to move in the direction of trying to build a cowherd. And h seems to be finding some success at some of the things he's been, you know, consistently researching, and so he's done. He's done a lot of homework, and uh, I think it's paying off. And we're excited his his mother and I are very excited to have him be in the neighborhood again. Okay, adn't get back to it now. So there we were, me and An. He waited eight years patiently, and we finally drew. Finally drew uh unit region in southwestern Wyoming known for having mature, really nice bucks. So I moved weather be our gun business from California and Wyoming, and I've been here a little over twelve months, which means that I can gain residency in Wyoming. So then I'm different than you guys. So at that point I'm special. Just go where everyone whenever you want, so I could go in for like forty bucks or whatever it is and just say I want to go hunt with Janice and Steve and then just go do it that day. And so that was put kind of how this thing how I hopped on board here was really jumping in with you guys is something that's really been a dream of yours. Uh, and I'm passionate about, you know, the high country, mule deer, back country horses, everything you guys were doing. And so at the slightest little conversation, I jumped in to team up with you guys and then Crooked Sky to head in for a week long pack trip to some pretty high elevation area with the high concentration of alchy mule dere but with the whole specific purpose of rifle hunting mule there. And that's what we did. It was a great job. Yeah, that was good. And I learned from Steve talked about talking about the story about how he met up with Crooked Sky, about the relative of these guys. Perry what's his last name? He wrote a letter to make you guys blush. I wish I had it. I wonder if I could full it up real quick. We had a lot of letters, but it caught our attention. Yeah, I did. Perry emailed me today see how that was? Yeah, he just uh we must have been talking about it on the podcast Talk Our Aspiration to draw a region g tags yeah yeah, and then he and then he emailed and said, if you do just so happens that my family has been running an outfit in business up there for how many years? Well, my uncle had started back in the real early sixties, so I you know, from about sixty on that TU was outfitting You guys are coming up on sixty years with yeah, yeah, I haven't been on this planet. Well I happened just about on this planet that long. So uh, but that's kind of when he started. But he was it used to be S. R. Dayton Sharon read Dayton was his name with outfitters. When when when he brought me in, uh we obviously I was looking for a you know, opportunity to put a spin my spin on it, and we I said to me, maybe we can think up a name when we became partners and it went to Magic Mountain Outfitters. And then when Lanta came in, he says, dead, I think would be good if we could, you know, move in the direction of something where he's being involved, and that's when Crooked Skuy Outfitters evolved. And what was wrong with Magic Mountain sounds a little Spacey's in California in many in many ways, when you ride a horse up there in the mountains, it's like a theme park, right because it could get pretty wild, but you know, it's there's there's something magic about the hills and and uh and continues to be. But perhaps with Landing's uh you know, entrance into it, that kind of gave and up gave way for an opportunity to maybe elevate to something that was a little more updated to what people might see and envision in a So where did Crooked Sky how did how did that come about? A good question? Well, there's there's kind of a combination of things there. Um. One is is the train that we hunt is very jagged. As you stand in the bottom, there's big elevation, you know, climbs that you look up, you know, to the horizon and you see the jaggedness of the mountains. But the other part of it that we felt like would be beneficial it's because of my dad's experience, you know, former in his life, um where he was able to play some roles in some different movies, one of those being Against the Crooked Sky UM. And so that was part of the where the name came from as well. That we thought maybe it would give us the ability for people to make that connection UM and want to come and hunt with with a guy that you know that maybe they had grown up watching UM as a young man. UM. And and so that was kind of there was a couple of different reasons that we decided to go that direction. Stewart, you didn't include that in your he doesn't like talking about we had the pride out of him. We uh, you know when when we were talking about the name change, we we listed we had probably oh names of just you know, off the brainstorm and uh time that we did that we wrote down and we just let it sit and stew for a bit. And then we actually had family kind of uh say, weigh in on it. Atlanta's got to five other siblings and and we kind of talked about let them give some input. And when it boiled down to its we just thought, well, maybe this is it's the time is is okay? I'm I'm far enough past the the window went my age to to have maybe lost some of the um recognition, but yet I was, and I guess I was kind I've always been a little bit apprehensive about using the film uh status as a way to promote my success. Um. I wanted to try to do it in a way that I felt like I wasn't cheating anyway, because people, I wanted people to do it when they when they met me personally, that they would feel good about and not feel like, well, you know, this is kind of a make believe character. You know that he was in these other films, and is that how he is today or so? I guess I've always been a little apprehensive about it because I saw how people would treat me differently because if they knew who I was, and I I always had a little bit of a guard up, you know, with protecting myself that way, saying do they like me because of that or because of who I am? That was? That was probably one of the reasons that I've drugged my feet and drugged my feet about ever using the film status. Well, I think also, you're you're you're kind of you're like an inherently modest person and you're not boisterous, so it probably makes it feel it's probably awkward. There's a lot of people would never let you forget that. Well, let's you know, I'll never forget the day somebody asked for my autograph and I thought, you gotta be kidding. I mean, I'm thirteen, and I thought, what's what's a What's a piece of paper and a name written scratched on there with my name on it? What what's it really worth? It didn't have any value or I couldn't see any uh you know. I in fact, I don't know that I've to this day, I've ever asked for even the people that I worked with, I had him sign a book, but to to to go up and ask for any of them for their autograph, I just never did it. I just wasn't something that And I'm sure you guys have had to do a few of those, but for me, I was just it was an awkward I just felt awkward as could be. Um so in in uh you know, in that history early history as a young boy, um who wanted to be so normal in so many ways, and yet I was I wanted to excel in sports, and that's what I focused on in high school and and uh you know, but I but I've met the same resistance. It was almost like I was a wrestler in high school. And uh, I remember a tournament once we were at one of the other teams that was there a guy that was in my weight to send a little one of his younger buddies in the lighter weights come over to let me know that I would be counting the lights pretty quick if I was going to wrestle him. And uh, I thought to myself, you gotta be kidding me. I mean, this guy didn't even know who I was, but yet because I was a movie star, you know, he was gonna whoop me and it was gonna be some feather. Uh. And it was the same way in football I have. You know, you had to tell us the resolution of that match. Well, we met in the championship and I went and made him count lights. So it was you know, it was for me that it kind of fueled the fire. I was competitive by nature, and when I got told that that was gonna happen, I thought, well, you, you dirty bugger, I'm gonna show you something different. So, you know, it was and it was a relief because it was it was a tournament here in town. Uh. And so I thought, I can't. I can't let this happen in my hometown. So you know, those are those are things that that all evolved with the film business. I guess at this point I was ready to say okay for the sake of helping my son in this business, for if he's gonna be able to carry it on, we've got to build it and and the name is going to have to do it. But I also want to make sure and recognize that when we're involved in this thing, we have a responsibility to what happens in the outdoors up there. I have a tremendous amount of respect for it. It's a it's a very very spiritual place for me to be, uh, pondering who I am? How do I treat people? Am I am? I truly becoming a better person. And consequently our goal is is we hope that when we rubbed shoulders with good people up there, they improve us and we improved them. Yeah, you don't have any reason to be bashful about Uh. I don't think that that's you know that you got tangled up and doing movies when you were a kid. Um, because in the mountains, uh, and out running your business, you work incredibly hard and are very focused and extremely knowledgeable and very professional. And it's not I wouldn't even get I wouldn't even worry about having people be like, oh I didn't get you know what I thought I was gonna get. And it's just some Hollywood I mean, come on, that's that's all. It's just not But but it's an interesting it's an interesting talking point. It is. I mean, it happened to you when you were very young, and you deliberately walked away from it. Um, it just wasn't in my genetic makeup to want to be knowledge because of the film business. Now, if I debated knowledge, you know, in all of my accolades and in sports, that would have been fine. And it did happen, and it was much more pleasurable. But for some reason, I just was caught up in that. Uh. The thought is, I I don't want the film business to define me as being impressive in somebody's eyes. I wanted to do it on my own because I think that's what happens with a lot of these guys in the film business, is that all of the attention that they get makes them think that they have done it, you know, they've arrived, and in many cases they their lives become destroyed because they cannot they cannot accept living. You know what, I don't know. It's hard for me to explain it, but what I see is I see it too often where these people who rise to the status of of star symbol and almost to a worshipful symbol in many people's eyes, and then they can't measure up, they find themselves not measure up to And I think we see a lot of that happening. And for some reason, my my instincts were that I never wanted that to be the reason why I felt good about me. Yeah, it just it just wasn't wasn't the case. Um oh, you know what Seth introduced yourself, Seth Morris, you've been on a thousand times, a couple a couple of times. Seth is kind of replacing Janni, because yes, that's gonna be doing uh kind of like doing Yanni's job coming up here in South Dakota. That's right. Yeah, Yanni's going on a big Colorado adventure. Not the first. It'll be the second um Meteor episode that I haven't produced since I started producing him. One was I was out for a knee surgery. But this is the first time we're gonna do it deliberately. That's a good trip to Uh. Do you you seth do you you you be honest? Do you be honest? Uh? Do you est more like a like a mentor or someone you need to knock down? No mentor, for sure, You're not like I'm gonna know, I'm not trying to replace bust your other need. You're not thinking that I'm still trying to learn from Okay, good, Yeah, I'm not ready to knock him down. Okay. Um, at some point that people does have to walk away from the teacher. There is a thing that someone explained to me that happens in a mentorship situation is uh, I can't remember who. There's some philosopher someone who discussed this that in a mentor relationship, there's a part of the the mentee, part of the mentees development. Um. I think it's a necessary part of the development is to develop an animosity towards the mentor. M But I think that that has to happen for that person to to move on. So Steth give me a heads up. Well, that just makes me think. Now I'll be thinking all night we're sharing this uh room over here. I'll be thinking, when is my mentor Stephen Roella, what am I gonna gain? That animal? Just got that big old buck. They explain for folks. What explained for folks like how you're guiding business works because of the thousand ways people guide. Right, you could Lisa ranch and and you know, you could own a ranch or Lisa ranch and clients come out and they hunt the ranch. You could you know, whatever you like, you got like guys that run bear baits. And so a client comes and they hire a guide and the guide sets them out to watch a bear bait. Just kind of talk like real general terms people who aren't familiar with Western hunting or guided hunting, sort of like what is the what is the package you provide or what is the experience you provide. We're referred to as what is a full service guide guided hunt, where in which we from the time they arrived with us, we and get them into camp. We are providing the services of their meals and their horses, their attack, everything but their personal gear and their license, and we take care of that every day during that hunt. And uh which means that the hunter we try to make sure that their horses uh fit them, their saddles fit them, and uh, the saddles are you know in place. We're we're aware of those kind of things because we we we we've been around the block a little bit now we know that if saddles aren't tightened up, that's when any experience writers can can get hurt because they're not aware of when the saddle starts to slip what they need to be doing. And you're comfortable putting a totally inexperienced rider on a horse on the ones that we have, uh, we don't. We've got some that we know they're just not ready for for guys that don't know have don't have much horsemanship skill. We just we have to we have to know the horses, um, pretty intimately to the extent of knowing where they are and where they are, where they fit in the pecking order of our horses, because that makes a difference. We we need to know a little bit about the person well a lot about the personality, because quite honestly, people and horses can have personalities of clash, and we see that on a regular basis. Sets horse uh would uh physically assault the horse in front of it my horse was it was it was an ass buyer for sure. Well, and some of that because she's a mayor and uh and and sometimes the mayors have those little nippick issues that they like to get after another horse because they are a mayor. And and that doesn't say anything about womanhood. I'm just saying that. That's if you talk to anybody that knows, uh, horses, A lot of your people like to use guildings because guildings are way more even kill castrated mail. Yeah, and uh, your mayor's, especially if they're cycling, they can be kind of contentkerous and they have a hard time dealing with other horses under those conditions. And some are just have that kind of a continued personality like that, and we don't know why, but they And that's one of the things you have to understand, you know, as you get to know horse flesh a little bit, is it, they have a personality just as distinct as people do. They think, oh, a horse, four legs, they run beautifully, they you know, they're athletic and this and that. But there's a lot of personality that you have to be aware of when you're watching a horse in your string and how they perform around different people. We ask people, what's your experience? Now? If they're honest. Uh, those that are honest, we can say, well, we've got one that's gonna fit the bill. But if we have if they tell us, well, I've ridden quite a few times, and then we put them on a horse that has a little more fire under their tail, then they then they get they get kind of intimidated or thinking, I'm not as good as I thought I was. Did you know, did you realize that one of our camera guys, Mike, Uh, I feel like he hadn't hadn't he had never first time he did? He tell you that was the up front about that, about that. And then I've ridden a handful of Uh, maybe I get like, maybe I get on a horse. I probably don't get on a horse every year even right, but I've had occasion to ride here and there. Um, I would say, though, and you know better than me, I would say that the topography uh, and and the trails and lack of trails where you guys ride would have to be that like if you're gonna put like riding on a you know, like a one to ten and severity, you're like up there there, you'd agree, right, I mean, you're you're in the nine. I felt like we were ten every day. Well, Seth has a horse allergy. So Seth has a horse allergy, and his horse fell, so he was like from he was out from and I have no experience and no experience. Well, I think one of the things that we run into is each time we get with new clients, you try to associate and get a feel for what number one, what their confidence level is, number two, what their experience level is. And then also the physical makeup of the individual is another component that we look at, what you mean, as far as their size, UM, and we try to you know, kind of pair them up with a horror. We feel like we'll work with them, like my dad mentioned, personality wise, but also in their ability and their stature to be able to carry a person um because a lot of times the horses are more than capable of carrying them, you know, and following the horse in front, which is typically your guide. UM. And so we try not to put people in a situation where they feel like their life is in danger um because of their inexperience. UM. But uh, you know, obviously there's there is that confidence level. We do have certain horses that, based on the way they move and the way they travel, they just have the capacity to help settle or um, I don't know, bring a little bit of peace to the people that are riding them. I like it that Janice took you guys aside and said, the get hurt all over the slowest I got, the slowest in the world. She's a nonreact her. She she really does. She doesn't get excited about much unless she's in the lead. When I used to ride her, I wrote her for a couple of years and uh, she she was really spooky when she was the lead. Because your lead horse is your alarm. Watched and you told me that taken off and I and I thought about it watching Blues ears because Blue had an opportunity to be out front. Today you said, the lead horse will do its ears different than the horses behind. They turn them and angle them forward. That was weird to see that she she does that and that, and and they are you know, and every horse behind the lead horse is somewhat in a cat more casual, relaxed feel because they know that if there's something that's gonna bugger the front horse they're a little safer. It's kind of like that old adage about if you're being chased by a bear with your buddy, it's who's the fastest, you know it's gonna happen. And they kind of get relaxed in that second position knowing that the first one is is the one that's going to take the hip if something ever happens. Yeah, Seth was saying his horse doesn't like to be first or last. No, High Heels was when when when she would be in the back, she would constantly like her head would constantly be off to the side behind looking behind it. And that's and that's typical of of the hind horse as well. They are somewhat the watchdog on the back and so they're they're a little more antsy about what's gonna come up and bite them on the butt. Yeah, she didn't like that at all. And uh, they that's just but the horses in the middle they're kind of cool, you know. They think, well, the front, the back, they've got us covered. Old Hi Heels love the middle. Yeah, she's the middle horse. Interesting, Blondie, the horse I was riding, she didn't like to be out front too much. She liked to be the second horse. Yeah, yeah, there's uh and some of that by nature and some of us by habits. You know, you ride a horse enough in the front, they get used to liking to be in the front. Um. But then there's those and and people are the same way. You know. I I make a lot of being raised on a ranch, I make a lot of comparisons between cattle and people. And my wife doesn't always appreciate that. But that's something I observed and I thought, yeah, that's just like so and sober, that's just like that person. And that's just because you you see, they're not just something that stands out in the field and is dumb. They they have a personality, they have a mind, um, and so you you do recognize that. And those are those are really those those are important issues in the field to try to help you understand how to be safe. We when we're shopping for horses to replace uh, some of our older stock, we're pretty uh cognizant of what we see in their eye. First, because there's something in the eye of a horse when you look at him, and without them really looking at you, but just watching their behavior, you get a sense or feel are they one that trust people trust you or they always watching you. Uh. The ones that are always watching you sometimes are the ones that can really uh get messed up in a in a string. Uh. Growing up, my dad always said, you know, horse talking about the difference between horses and mules. And you know, maybe people in the mule businesses have a way different experience, but Dad said, you know, a horse will let you actually hurt him into a position of being hurt um, whereas a mule. And we had a few meals through the years and they just wouldn't they flat out if they thought they were gonna get hurt, were in a predicament that they weren't gonna let you do it. And that's why they'd say stubborn as a mule, they'd lock up. You couldn't get them to do what you thought, and you'd get get on a horse and you can make them do that. And uh. And so we see that a lot, uh with our animals. There's a trust factor. So we look at we look at their you know, not only their physical stature and their their athleticism. But Landing alluded the fact that not every horse that your ride that's really good on flat land is going to be good up in in the hills. It's it's a different style of balance and between rider and slope. Um. I had the conversation with Adam a little bit about you know sometimes why some horses feel like they slip a little bit. Well, some of that's due to the rider, because of the way the rider balances himself, you know, is he working against the horse on a side hill for instance. We've talked about that early on. I I tell my hunters all the time, don't lean into the mountain. I mean, you're just taking a folks on point and it's it's like you're almost as getting and leaning. They get they get nervous because they're on a side hill. Yeah. We walked one night after dark. We walk next to a cliff that would have been absolute death. It would be like if you went off the cliff, you die, You and the horse would die. And and uh and I sat there more like what does the horses sort of awareness of the fact that it would die if it fell off that cliff? And you could definitely feel your body wind lean like lean the horse into a safe a motorcycle. Yeah, And I remember what you were saying is like let the horse balance itself. Don't the same thing happened when when because Bandy, my horse slipped on some shale one day and slipped on some ice going up a hill. And I've ridden uh a decent amountain had horses when I was young, and yet I found myself timid going up the ice. It was pretty steep and it was pretty icy, and she was slipping. She felt me being timid, and I was kind of pulling her back, like whoa, okay, let's go one step at a time, he said. One of the horse's best friends, or momentum in that case. So I was holding her back from her natural instinct. She's like, dude, I'm gonna power or this Adam, it's no big deal. It's just a little icy slope. Let me go. I didn't. She slipped. My fault, and from the rest of the trip, when he gave me that momentum motivational speech, like we'd get to something that I'm like, that's pretty shaley, uh, pretty icy, pretty snow, and just go, you know, and just start kicking and we can just truck up this thing. And she had no problem with it. And that's a big thing I think too, is that whole trust factor at night without our head lamps on, it's that same thing right when we're on the side of the cliffs. It's like, this horse can do it. Let it do it, and don't hold it back. Explain to people a little bit like what happens on a trip where in terms of sort of to get out to your camp, like the length of ride and then and then what you arrive at. Well, basically from Cokeville, what we do is we drive two hours by truck. Um. From that point, we trail head out and and we ride from the trailhead another seven miles on horseback through a variety of up and downs and and and some some steeper country um. And so you know, it's definitely one of those things when we're hunting, you're staying on the mountain tail dark, and you're typically leaving in the dark from camp, and so you spend a lot of time and can't spend a lot of time on the horse in the dark, and and so people can get intimidated by that, wondering if their horse can actually even see, if they're going to be able to follow the trail, And so the tendency for a lot of people is to put their head light on, which it actually impedes the ability the horse to see. Um, that's a that's a I know that, that's true. That was a difficult thing for me too. That was that would do it at times, but at times I had to turn my light. Well, it was a it's a trust issue, and that's what I guess. We were in that trail so many times and times and some of those darker timber patches. It really is. It's it is no different then when you're in a roller coaster and it goes through the dark tunnel and you can't see your hand. They might not have a tree branch at I level. On the trail. There could be tree branches at I level. Like Walt Disney doesn't like hold a spruce bow like out, Yeah, as you're going through the tunnel, slap you in the face of the thing. If I had multiple people in front of me and they weren't going out, I'm like, cool man, I'll turn my light off. But when I'm out. When I happened to be in front for a little bit, I couldn't let my I I theoretically I understood I was like the horse stay on the trail, but I couldn't bring myself to do it well. So I needed to know if I was gonna get smacked in the face when I rolled out the other night, Saturday night, when I left the trail or left camp about ten thirty at night, UM, I would periodically turn my light on to look back and check the pack horse. So I was leading out to make sure the packs were square. Every time I turned my light on to look back, they would stop because they couldn't see anymore. Um. And so at that point, like I just knew that I needed to shut my light off and and just periodically check. Which there's nothing wrong with that, but it shows the fact that it does impede their ability to continue to see. Yeah, your Stewart, you kind of I don't even want to call it passive aggressive. I was out front one at one moment, I want to in front for a minute, and I had my lamp on, and uh, you said to me, isn't it amazing how they can find their way in the dark too? Me turn your head later. Uh you guys camp, so you're camp something that you have a camp in the National Force? Yep, it's all public um, and so you know really the thing that sets spart is to be able to get back in that back country and and and get away from the public because there's a lot of people that don't want to go to the effort of getting back there, um, and so we rely on the horses to do that because it's just a matter of trying, I mean another transporting gear, but transporting games. Yeah, you knock something down seven miles. Who wants to pack an elkout and have to make four trips It's not gonna be and just going down. Yeah, it's not just a downhill. You got up and down and you're climbing in elevation of probably two thousand feet at any given point. So and then you so it's on National forest, but you guys have um, you have an arrangement with the National Forest. We have a special use permit that that we have you know, the rights to for a period of time and then we can renew that. For instance, we just renewed ours this year, which will be good for another eight years um. And then they periodically you know, go over things. They want to make sure you're abiding by the rules that are set out by the Forest Service to uh be able to run a camp uh and do it right. We're governed kind of by two bodies that where we're hunting on the Forest Service ground and we have some we hunt on on some other uh government grounds. But uh speaking of the Forest Service, UM, we we fill a report out to them every year at the year's end saying what we had for clients, how many days they were on the forest and uh and we pay a fee and and uh so that's where the fee comes to place and how much you're using it. We we we pay a flat rate fee for the camp so and then and then we pay a percentage of the gross income at the end of the year. Uh. And then we're governed also certain as far as the outfitter license which I hold uh for Cricket Sky Outfitters. Um, they kind of govern us as well, making sure that we're abiding by the laws, the game and fish laws and as well as the Forest Service. Uh, you know, responsibilities that we have there. And what you have. The infrastructure you have is pretty lights. You have a small corral which is large as composed of brush and log YEP. I gathered that one time it was the site to behold. Yeah, one time, the you know, the snows get pretty deep up there and and break down your fences. That we had a bucking pull crail fence all the way around, but the snows of since dilapidated that and sometimes we've never had the time to go up because it takes a lot of energy to try to drag dead lodge pull pine from off the mountain there, you know, two ft or two hundred yards or three hundred yards up that drag it down. And uh, it's been probably twenty years since we did the crail initially like that, so it's lasts a long time, but it's as as you can see. You know, the weathers has warrant. The horses crib on it, and you see poles break after that. But you know, that's that's one of the things. And we've appreciated at least the Forest Service Department that we work without a camera. They've been good people who work with and and have been been very helpful. And um, we've been great that we've had that fortunate first of all that Uncle Sharon was able to get that camp back in the early sixties. Uh, even when he didn't use it that much back then, and it wasn' until I came in that we started to really use that upper camp because we have a we have a lower base camp and that was accessible by and still as accessible by vehicle. Um so, but I've always been in the upper camp and so I've always enjoyed the aspect of what we have there. It's a lot more work because we have to pack all our feed in by by horses. We have to you know, make sure that we've uh got that feed in because it's a long ways to go back and get feed. If you don't have quite enough m yeah, you don't. You don't graze your horses out, you don't pass your horse, don't pass it on the forest land. We don't have to bring in your food. We bring the food in and uh and so it's it's it's just it's a pretty labor intensive you know. We often say it's a labor of love. Well, we do, and it truly is because we all know that when when you really love something that you do as hard as it is and physically demands it is, it's not something you despise because it's work. Yeah, it's something that you just say, I love what Every job has its uh, I call it grunt work jobs You know, stuff that you just don't like to do, uh, but we like doing just about everything, even though it's physical, it's it's demanding them. Yeah, and you have a you have a crowd, you have a cash you guys built out a beetle kill pine where you can put some stuff over year, and then you have a tarp structure for your tag yep. Then you have a couple of tent platforms we did. We set up wall tents on those tent platforms and put woodstoves there. We used to have the wood floors with with a large pull pine frames that we can just pull our tents over, and then we'd put the tents away and then then you know, the frames would stay up, but those frames would uh would often be caved in the next spring when we'd write in and we'd have to rebuild. And so it's been probably what ten or so years ago, close to ten years eight to ten years ago that we uh I decided to see if I couldn't get approval from the Forest Service to redo the floors, you know, like they were only uh, make them structured a little a little more sound. And then because I noticed today that you guys had uh they're put on sonitudes. Well we you know, we were packed in uh cement and report uh the concrete columns. Um, we couldn't put any rebar because that was an agreement that you know, we wouldn't do put it rebar. And I was looking at those. I was looking at those I was called pilings, what do you call them? The other columns, the cement columns. So that made it possible for us to to you know, build the floor a little more stable because they do have a footing. You know, we we enlarged the footing with the son below the sontitude. Um, I'm sorry, I'm dense. What is the word you're saying? Sauna tube is a cardboard form? Sauna sa I'm picturing like a room with woods, a lot of Yeah, it's probably like calling a tissue of kleenex, right, it's it's so, it's a it's a kind of a cardboard type were familiar with has never heard that term sato tube, and and so that's what we were. They were willing to let us, uh to do that, you know, improve the look and the camp site. But then I asked him if we could if we put a metal frame in there. So I got some and they proved that, and we got you could have the whole thing down in an hour, right yep. And and so we we've got the metal can do it frames that allows us to be able to pull those tints on there. And it just makes a comfortable camp site and a bigger stainless sink, stainless stink and woodstoves. The stainless stink came in on a horse, right, five big mule, five ft stay was sink. It's it's actually eight foot long, three bays three three sink bays in it, and then a drying rack on the end. And you're saying, the mule that carried it in couldn't lift his head up all the way because he had that thing on him. It had it had that on the on the we'd raise it up on the we're packing in some cots, and we put those in some hard paniards and we were able to elevate it off the top of her head. There. She couldn't raise it up all the way. She had to walk with her head about shoulder level all the way. I remember walking the tent the first time and saw that. I was like, now, how did that get here? She she was a good old meal. That it's an old We called her Molly. She was just the fact Landing was four years old when I put her, put him on her, and she just took care of She tried to brush him off on under pine boughs. Everyone's she was a big She was used a mule last year that was ginormous. In her name was Molly. That's fine, probably her she was, she's dead. She's she was about thirty when she died, so it would be a different mule. Then she'd been around the block. We packed her out of a you know. We fact, if we had real steep terrain to pack an elk out or a mule deer, we usually took her. Is it true that people tell me this all the time. Is it true that a horse or a mule will deliberately go under a sweeper to try to dislodge the rider or is it just that it knows it can fit and it doesn't think about whether or not there's a rider who's gonna get dislodged. I think there's a little both. Uh. I watched Landing with Molly, and she deliberately would walk close to trees. The trail wasn't under the tree. She would deliberately walk under it, and he just kind of laid back and then he popped up like one of those little blow up things that he had come right back up in the saddle there like you know, that was no big deal. He just ride around some more. But I watched her and it was very deliberate. Um, And I've seen it with other horses. I've I've ridden horses that too, seemed to be a little more deliberate in their approach to Rather than going around the tree, even when the trail was taking you around, they shortcut it. And uh so they're they're a little smart in which you think. I've seen some funny things. I saw a hunter. Uh we'd seen some milk and we were galloping up the hill because I'd kicked my horse and into a gallop and we were It wasn't steep hill, but it was enough. We had some momentum going. And he was the last guy and he wasn't hadn't had no control that horse, and she took him under a great big dug fur that had There was a pine bough that would have been probably about all three inches across hanging out from the tree at least twelve to fourteen feet, and it was low enough at saddle horn heights when she went underneath that, and that started in the flecks of that finally could only go so far. It just cat have pulled him off the back door. It was it was a cartoon to behold because it just it blew him right off the back of the horse. All the other guys were laughing at him. He wasn't too too excited about that, but they will, I mean they in that case. I don't think the horse was thinking how to get the rider off. I'm I'm just trying to catch up with the rest of the group, and he didn't. He wasn't right directly behind, and that guy didn't control the horse, so he ended up in a fine bow you know, catapult reason. But once we set out to start hunting, I feel like you probably did do this. I felt like you kind of wanted to work close first, and then as the days go on, you kind of gradually start doing bigger forays out and uh well, and where our camp is situated, I think we have some of the prime hunting just within a very short ride. I mean you're talking right above camp. You're here in our bugle. You're seeing deer within the ten minute ride of being outside of camp and we've even spotted deer from Camp Um. And so that's one of the great things of where we're located is that you have that nucleus, if you like Um, where you can just branch out and then we know there's other country out there that we can go out and and if we needed to, like we did this trip to try and see if we couldn't find I mean, we saw plenty of bucks. We just needed to see what else was out there and if we could find you know, that one big buck that was hanging out that was just maybe on the perimeter. But that's the definitely the benefit of where we're at. That first day out one Adam and I rode off with Stewart, I mean we must I think we saw fourteen bucks or something like that. Fourteen bucks I think was at the day thirty forty elk and two bears. It was understood. I was undisturbed, like it was undisturbed. It was the opening day, yeah, And we didn't go far and it was just dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, and in the middle of it getting distracted by out bugling and all the other cool things out there, and Jason after a bear. Oh man, Yeah, we saw a bear and decided to go run it down on the side of a you know, pretty rocky hill and go after it. But yeah, I mean that was all well. We went a pretty good distance even that first day though, didn't We mean we went this fonsy that made dear though it was well. And the other thing, um that we we we feel like, I mean, they sense your presence and uh, we don't like to just you know, keep it so tight that perhaps it makes it that much more difficult, but it also gives the hunter another perspective because you can see, uh, maybe from where you went the day before country back looking back on some of the country, you were a little better angle in which you experienced because of the fact that we had been there a couple different times looking off in that same spot, but because of our perspective, we could not see everything it was below us. You know what's funny about that spot is the first time we went there. Um, you were talking about how bucks like to lay on this cliff face. It's not a cliff face, but very crazy full of avalanche shoots and fingers and fingers of timber and rocky, and you're like, they like to lay here. Um, And you started creeping along peering over the edge, and Adam said to me, I I do gather they'd like to lay here based off Stuart's like very intense focused down the hill. You know, you're expecting to find one that's where you shot your Yeah, but that's all I was gonna talk about. We twice crept along, twice crept along that glass and down those avalanche shoots and seeing deer laying here and there on it, and possibly twice because he was a little bit farther down, possibly maybe twice walked past the buck that I got. But then it wasn't til it wasn't ntil. We then went around peer back onto that hillside, and then it wasn't even like we said. I I sat down with landing to start glass in the hillside between snow squalls, and I didn't even have my tripods set up, and He's like, you know, there's a buck like and I was like, man, one of our camera guys lost the sunglasses about fifty yards in that buck, you know. Uh. But looking back on it was interesting because there he was. And that's and that's what's kind of fun about it. It's difficult country from the uh perspective of not being able to see it in a in a clear, concise, imaginary way of saying, this is how I would imagine it would have played out. And then you get on, you know, you go around on the other side, looking back, and you can see where timber, the lay of the land, and how the timber and the shadows fall on it. You say, now, I can see why we didn't see as many or see that buck there because he was able to hide in such a fashion that we couldn't see him from above. He could only be seen from the angle down below or on another I don't want to give away too many of you guys trade secrets, but in the daytime and the warm part of the day or in the midday, you guys like to be up looking down a face knowing that it's so steep that the deer gonna bed Basically they're bedding up against trees. They dig out little beds, and they're on the top side, on the top side, and you're not gonna see him from across. But then in the mornings or evenings you can go around and peer back onto the hillside when they might be on their feet. But in the daytime you'd like to be a bedding time, you'd like to be peering straight down. And what that men in this terrain was often several miles and several thousand feet of elevation. You don't running over there. It's not like let's go to the bottom now, like you know yesterday or whenever that was day before. I guess went with your honest book. I mean, it was three miles around to get to where we could see, you know, from that other angle. So with the terrain, it means a lot of moving. But it's either that or nap mid day, which I know you do like Steve, I like it under certain conditions, um, when you can't be productive during that noon now and when it's very nice and warm. I took one like this this week. I took one ten minute. Now that's all I got, one ten minute. You're honest, how many do you have? At least three good ones? Like one period of time? Oh good enough for me? It is like ninety minutes plus the very first day we were out, we're probably pushing two and a half just laid low, got hot, you know, and it kind of you know, the action died down, and but we did end up seeing a lot of bedded bucks this weeked Man finding bedded bucks. That's especially exciting it is. We one time had a did a did an episode of our show where I crept, crawled up on and shot a bedded antelope and got a handful of emails people all riled up about that it's non sports been like, I'm like, you go creep up on a bedded down antilope, Come tell me it's not sports been like, it's not easy to creep up on him. Well, yeah, and there's that argument too of like yeah, like it's somehow better to shoot one it's staring at you. Well, and that's and that's exactly and that's why, you know, like, uh, the day that Adam shot his buck, we had decided to let and I call it to get off and do an Indian hunt because I respect their their method of how they had to hunt in the early day. They had to they had to sneak up on things they didn't have. The didn't have the high powered rifles or or the good binoculars to to really help their cause, and so everything was very stealth driven. And I like that style of hunt where you go into a patch of timber that you know is a place where they bed down on a regular basis, and you're you're matched with their sense, their keen sense of smell and hearing um and whatever the other sense that they have that seems to if they sense danger, they're out of there. And will you try will you try to pull off? I just I just call it a still hunt. Will you try to pull that off with a client into Yeah, yeah, I've done that. In fact, I'll put them in front of me and I'll just say, then you'll say, hey, back up, because you missed the deer. I'll just say I'll say, we're gonna walk just a couple of steps quietly, and we're gonna glass, and we're gonna glass, and then we'll make a few more. So it takes you a long time to get through a patch of timber, but you know, I've not through the ears and depending on the terrain. Um. I've always been amazed at how an animal will see you coming and and are blowing out the timber when you're thinking, God, I didn't even see them. Well, that's because their eyeballs are usually down, you know, maybe knee heights because they're bedded down, and that's where a lot of your your brush sometimes and at least in our terrain is less, so they see your leg movement and you can't see them. Yeah, So it's it's you know, it's absolutely critical if you're gonna go in there, your heads up in the fur needles and stuff, and they're looking and they're seeing low so they see that movement and that's something that is a set off to them, even though there may be no scent, it's something different and it alarms them. And so you I I like the challenge because when you go through like that, Uh, if you're gonna just march prayed through a patch of timber and think you're gonna get a buck, the buck's really got to be tired and sleep be. It occurred to me just while we're having this conversation that of the three deer we got, um we got to be using three very different methods. We got one sort of like the one I got was like very like very textbook spot and stock like spotted from way off. While we're like sitting there and intentionally glass in a distant hillside, crept up on it and you know, sniped it from ways off, and then Adam got one still hunting, creeping through the timber, and then ye only got one of the classic almost like deer drive, not almost classic classic. Well I don't always say almost because like more deer drives don't happen on anybody can say classic unless you were the one driving with Stewart. Do you want me to unpack mine? And then we silly story. We just you know, you and I Steve were he came around on this hill where we knew there was a bunch of timber and you were going down. What were you told? Maybe three yards below me? Can of stop from the I'm then I'm gonna let you just go. Have you heard the term still hunt me? No? I have, I have, but I guess you know through the years, I'm not I'm not taking offense. I'm not taking offense that that saying it like an Indian hunt. But I mean in the East he called a still hunt, and it means like going. I remember my dad writing a letter to the editor because the guy wrote an article. He had the letter. The letter to the editor was published and he kept in his office where a guy wrote an article describing his still hunting strategy, and my dad calculated it by the end of the day he would be fifty yards from his truck because his description that he takes a step and waits five minutes or whatever. My dad got to thinking, well, he wouldn't make it anywhere. But so you have heard the term I have heard, murse I was misleading because you're not being still like you think, like, how is sitting in a tree stand not still hunting? You're still, no one's going anywhere. But it means to still hunt means to not be still well, and then be still and then not be still. Yeah, I think the way I've always twisted it to make make it make that term makes sense to make head. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it is that you move in such a way that if something looks at you, it would perceive you as being still. That's what you had to do to make that makes sense. That's fine, Okay, go ahead, Adam. Sorry, that's why I wanted to get I wanted to get into I wanted to get into the Norman clature a little bit. So yeah, so we we headed into this patch of timber knowing a few different things. Number One, if we were to spook a buck, you gotta be ready, like really quick. Sometimes what that means is you've gotta be ready with your rifle really quick. So whether it's slung on your shoulder holding in your hand. Number Two, you may not have a lot of time to judge its size, and that makes it a little bit more challenging as well. But it also brings about a different sort of adrenaline. You know, when you just boom it it's right there, and what am I gonna do in that moment? Yeah, you feel all of a sudden, you feel very present. Yes. And and it also even right when you hop in the brush the timber at that moment, even though you have no clue if there's a deer in there or where the deer is, you feel like you're stocking something. And you have that they're like, okay, lets me real quiet. You know, you just even to yourself and I'm gonna go because there's probably one right here, and there's probably what So it it's kind of exciting, you know, I mean, you can't nap while steel, honey. Yeah. And then also Stewart was pretty precise. He's like, you go that far, you go that far, we'll meet you over here. Is this getting into zones? No, No, it was I was gonna be at the top, Steve, you were going to be at the bottom, nearer, nearer to where there was kind of an open bench. And so so I went in towards the top and there's all sorts of sign in there, both elk and deer, um and bear. Actually it's the same area that we've seen the black bear two days before, snow fresh and it had snowed that morning. Is when it snowed. I believe this is day three of our hunt. So we've gone day one, day two. We'd seen a lot of bucks every day. Uh, they'd all been small, nothing, I don't believe, whider in their ears on those first couple of days. And so we kind of I punched in there, and yeah, saw the bear heading the same direction that I was heading. With what would have been in the last five to six hours a bear had been through there in that same direction, came through a whole lot of elk signed, a whole lot of deer sign a lot of beds, Uh, beds were everywhere in there. I mean the smell was there. So all your senses, I mean it's fine, you know, I mean all your senses, you're seeing tracks, you're doing all these things, and uh, it's so, you know, it was awesome. So we get to the middle of probably this section and i'd put, you know, on ax where Stewart was going to be at the end, you know, a little put a little way point where we're gonna meet up, and so really kind of sidehiling, and all of a sudden, stepped in this open area in the middle of this timber where there's probably fifty yards of clearing, and there was a buck standing there and probably stood there for a second or two and then trot it off a period of three to four total seconds. Not enough to get my glass up, not it wasn't that far though, at the same time, not enough to get my rifle scope up. You know. It was just like there's a deer that you know, you're just kind of taking off guarden. He didn't stand there for a long time like sometimes they might do, and I was surprised, to be honest, that we were able to sneak up on him like we did. He was on the other edge of this kind of little open measure him he had probably stood up. Yes, yeah, definitely there, because when we walked over there a couple of minutes later is a bed right there. So I decided. I decided, I'm like, usually if you bump a deer in that case, the deer's gone and okay, let's keep going through. And then I'm like, oh, now, we probably just went through and bumped the whole stinking, you know side of the hill and everything's gonna be gone. Yeah, you don't generally decided to go and check out where it went, but I did. Well. I I just said, I wonder if I knew in that case, in the midst of timber, there's no way on earth you'd ever in a million years gonna be able to catch up buck right, I mean one in a million. But I said, if there's an open clearing, we could kind of I could kind of truck through this timber and maybe see it going up clearing it stops. Broad said for a second, looks back at you, right, that sort of thing, And so pull up the map. It kind of looked along there and saw quarter mile, half mile something like that further down this hill, you know, sidehiling it so further in the direction I was already gonna be going, but slightly down a little towards the border of my zone and your zone. Steve close to that but not across it. You just just I found you. Wait, wait, I'm working at the lower end. I found you well below me. I got on a hunt. I was hunting. It was fair chase, and I was chasing. You went into like a third zone hadn't been discussed zone. That's correct, that's correct. I cannot confirmed order that. So basically I go down through here and I kind of went up pirate first thing, and I looked down because I thought the angled direction that the buck did leave was more down in the in the same direction that I had been going. And so anyways, I get to where this clearing is and I get to look out in the clearing and there's no buck. But as I look towards the left down the hill, I see the rack through the trees. With my bare it was yards away. It's hard to range because it was through the trees, and if I moved my head three inches or six inch to the right left up or down, like I'd lose the deer. It was one of you know, when you just zone in. And it was like eyeball to eyeball. With the window me looking straight at this deer straight on, I could see it was wider in its ears, and it was wider and aning we see. I couldn't see due to all the trees and branches. It couldn't see the forest, couldn't see more, you know about thickness, et cetera. So I stopped and stared at this buck and got my buyos, and the buck didn't move, didn't blink, didn't twitch and hear, and just stared right at me. It's crazy when you talk about Stewart, how the deer can see you, because I I felt pretty lucky that I saw this deer through this window and it obviously saw me right away. And so I'm looking through this thing and I put up the buyos and I'm just wanting him to turn his head so I can get a clear look from the side. Wouldn't turn his head, wouldn't move things straight on one and then uh, I ended up picking up my rifle. And and the thing is it was at that type of heights where I couldn't I certainly couldn't go prone, I couldn't sit down, and I have that tripod, you know, and they can go up and down or whatever, and uh that can use his sticks. Uh. If I was standing like at a regular standing heights number one over a hundred yards, I don't like to do free standing, specially with the visibility there. It was a crouching position. It was like the most awkward position, uh, that you can have, is this crouching position. Is the angle I could see the deer at I knew if I left this window, the deer was gone. And so I'm sitting there and I get my steak. It must have looked like the most uncoordinated setup because I'm like this, My feet kind of kept falling, and so I get the rest and I have the crosshairs on the deer, but I can only see kind of from the chest up half the chest up. It's looking straight on. And so at that point I knew the thing. I was hoping the thing would turn and then i'd have maybe a second or two for it to step across, maybe a wide enough clearing, maybe it's body length, and for me to judge its antlers and pull the trigger. And so I was sitting there and I was thinking, but you know, how it is once you have your cross hairs on the animal, once the animals looking at you, I can see it's wider in its ears. I even turned to my cameraman behind me, who was with me, and said, I'm gonna kind of wait and see, and I was like talking to him and just wrestling it through my mind. As soon as he turns his shoulder, I'm gonna engage it. Well, sure enough, I finally get in position and it it had been minutes of just a direct stare off right there, and the deer turns presents its shoulder and I just pulled the trigger. I just it was that instinct of like, there's the shoulder, there's the cross hairs through the trees, and uh down it went in that one shot, and uh so I run around even kind of just leave my packs at my spotting scille down everything kind of on the ground steep hill, and I just because of the brush, I wanted to kind of get over to the side to just see what's going on, what had happened. But I could see that the thing just went straight down and and sure enough it it didn't move but five or ten feet um from where we found it, and walked up on the buck and UH started taking some you know, some pictures and whatnot before we'd got it out and celebrating, and honestly, you know, i'd I'd been looking probably for a larger buck, but in that moment, it was the end of day three and we hadn't seen any shooter bucks yet, and I just said, oh, let's get something on the ground. And I was, you know, I didn't wait eight years. It's a general tag for me. I'm like, I'll just come back next year if I want to. This guy's gotta wait until, like my kids are grown and married and probably had children before. So then I recovered the buck, and then all of a sudden, I see Steve walking clearly into my zone down Stewart and they both heard the shot and UH and came up and it was I would say, probably pretty close to your zone, Steve. It was, but it had traveled like I'd spotted it well in my zone. And so I don't know where that is in a book of hunting tactics, but no, I think if you're on a hot trail, you get to just I think, okay, how often do you bump a deer while st still hunting, look at something on a map, go and find it and shoot it. But I would have shot that bug had I come across it. Yeah. Yeah, is afternoon to day three, which incidentally just a point that I hadn't thought about. All of the bucks we shot this week, we're in the evening, early even hours. That's a good point. Well, you're right, Uh, the one, the one I got. It's interesting story. But the highlight of my trip, Um, besides me to you guys, I'm watching you work with the horses and and and all that, which is really educational. Uh, the highlight of my trip was something I glimpsed. It's it's words really do it justice. But Uh, when we're all hunting, there's there's a there's a lot of deer around, and we have a long time and we're all admirers of big mulders, so we're trying to find you know, mature box big racks on them. Uh, and then kind of wrestling with this equation of how much time do you have left? Right? And I'm like, I'm definitely gonna get a buck, so I'm gonna wait and wait, but I gotta wait too long. And yeah, it's like I'm willing to go home with no buck. I'm gonna keep waiting. And you know, you're wrestling all this out in your head, and meanwhile you're looking at you're already seeing deer. And so every time you see a mule deer's rump through the timber or wherever it is, um, no matter what I mean, you gotta sit down and assess that thing and see what it is like. Is it a buck? Is it a big buck? And there was a time I was I think I was was. Yeah, I was with Steward. I can't remember who else is there, but I was with you and we I think you had spotted a deer in September. And then I started looking in there and and we started to put together there's three of them in there, and we see two of them. We see there are just two little ones, and there's a third one. We're waiting for the third one to reveal itself. And one of these other boxes, he'd stepped into a spot where he's just got the bright sunlight on his rump and they really shine. And the buck that I was waiting to see, I couldn't see him at all. Now he's completely behind a tree. But all of a sudden, I see the most perfect shadow of his rack on the sunlit buck, to the point where I was like, oh, it's a three by three because it's shadow was like someone doing like finger puppets on the bedroom wall, blasted against this deer and it lasted like this fleeting glimpse. But it was the most bizarre thing I've seen a while. It's like a perfect like I didn't even need to stick around to let him come out of where he was hiding because of how perfectly shadowed his uh deal was. But the day I got the buck I got, we kind of scoured around a fair bit and it was real snowy, and the kind of strange thing that's really fortuitous series of events happened where we saw a dough, where we saw a deer, and by the time we get set up a spotting scope this, the snow picked up so bad you couldn't see. So you went and hit out in some trees. You got out of the wind, made a little fire and it got clear. And the minute it got clear, right, well, let's go run down and look at the hillside we were trying to go look at and I'm still set up my spotting scope and Landing's like, there's deer that looks like a buck. I set up my spine and scope like, wow, that's a that's a nice I mean nice buck. Was all the whole trip like that's a nice buck. And I remember you had said, quote what a stud and so the buck not me and it was that was it like nine yards away or something that's quite quite a ways way? And all of a sudden, our our camera guy Lauren remarks like, man, is there a squall headed our way? And I look up the mountain and just like this wall of white is coming and this wall of white and it was fog, intense wind and a lot of snow just engulfs Us and Land and I kind of look at each I were like, you know, we could walk over there like this buck would never know. And we literally just ran threw a white out, arrived at where we were, like below the buck. The white out is so strong that we're able to pick which sort of tree would be best to hang out at hunker down that eventus you could kind of see the base of the hill, then you can make out some timber. Then it cleared and just there's the buck. Two and fifty yards away. Nothing works out like that. It was perfect, I mean the wind. We kept watching the wind to make sure that the our wind was right, and the whole situation was just a perfect uh, perfect stock And it couldn't been any better because we caught him right in that window between the snowstorms, and then we were able to use the snowstorm as our cover to then get within a range where he didn't even know we were there because we had a bare hillside with opa pockets that we needed to be able to get through to get down to him. But then the snow also helped muffle the noise, you know, the wind and everything, and then it got like beautifully calm. And the other thing that we both observed later that never happens. We had a landmark which was the shiny white the shiny tree, nag uh. And a lot of times you kind of move aways and your landmarks ceased to make sense. But we got up and as it started to clear, we were in agreement, like that's the tree, yea, And then lo and behold, like the bark was under the tree. It was nothing, I mean not nothing ever works out that way. But that was one of the more amazing. That's how good crooked sky is. They can call into salls some of the squall. We had that kind of power sometimes. But so how and how far was that? How far did you get then when you stopped? Was it to something? We stopped and hunkered down and waited for the water to clear. And when the bucks stepped I mean he still I say he stepped out, But yeah, he stepped out. We we couldn't see him in all sinar he was two six yards. Nothing ever works out quite like that unless Stewart says, I've got a plan. Let's drive this piece of timber up here at on the side of the Shale Mountain and you just go and sit down at the end of the Shelle Mountain and wait for a buck to come to you. Your word for it doesn't give away your spot. That's your own personal term for it. Or do people know it as I think you said, huh, you know, I don't know that we we uh, we gave it a name, but I don't think there's any name on a map like that. But we gave gave it a name of dangling gardens because you're virtually hanging when you're coming around patch of timber. You're grabbing for any kind of pine bow to keep you upright, because it's just it's really steep on the on the side, slant with rock and and uh it's a workout. They'll have you in a lather, just in a in about a half a mile, you know, hike. I tripped eleven times and slid downhill on that drive. For you, you had a little counter pressing the button every day. My my film guy just kept laughing and then other way back he kept doing it. That was and that's the thing, man, So much respect for you, steward of of the I mean the physical nature. We talked at about horseback, but I mean that that day, uh that you shot your Bucky on us, I mean it was you know, there's I think I looked it was eighteen miles and maybe ten of that was on horseback, and eight we didn't stop for fourteen hours. We were just just going, yeah, I know, it was a beautiful day to walk around the mountains. And he was just yeah that good horse rides. Oh No, I want to tell the story of the things that I think it kind of demonstrates. One year hunting was someone who spent thirty years hunting the area. Yeah, just like talking about how that played out with the buck he got. Well. Prior to that was the first day I got to hunt with Steward prid Of that had been hunting with Land and we've been hunting sort of the other side of this drainage and looking over at this mountain which dangling gardens dangle on, and he kept saying, you know, there's bucks in that patch of timber, and like when you're seeing them. Well, no, well he's seen him there in the past. And Adam went by it one day and he's like, man, it's just like a big rocky hillside. There's probably not any bucks over there. And then the next day or no, that same afternoon, I hunted it backwards and I looked over there some and I'm like, yeah, it just doesn't look like a real bucky spot because it's just like rocks to right. Yeah, yeah, Um, it wasn't Wasn't there a story of the past where we've done the same thing and a lot of bucks came out there. Yeah. We had a hunter from Pennsylvanian and he'd been all over he'd been to Africa and so he you know, when he was he was a good hunter. But he was in there his older years, and so that was a way for there. It couldn't have been that old. Well he was, he was in his uh he would have been in his late late sixties, early seventies, and uh he was a bigger fellow and and but pretty physical and robust even at his age. But we rode him. We got him, uh, dropped off at the point that would have been close to where on horseback he wasn't gonna get off. So we we we we walk. That was a drop off, not the not the high through, but we we went through that same batch of timber. We'd had it. It was a tough we were having it. It was a dry, uh kind of an almost Indian summary type hunt week, and so everything was just really tough and held up in the timber tighten. We thought, this is one of our only options is to see if we can walk through this, uh, this strip of timber which has kind of a natural funnel effect. They don't like to go down on that. They they'd rather traverse around because they've got to cover and feed. And we haven't dissed. We don't have time to get into we haven't discussed the slide like this is the most slide rock intensive location I've ever been. It's it's it's a lot of rock and and a lot of we call it slide rock up that you know from our tourman. Nothing wants to walk on that stuff. They don't, they don't like to, and so that's part of the you know, that timber was kind of nestled in such a way that as it came around in a tree line fashion on that on that mountain that in the past we had driven that and we had driven out. When we got over, we heard a shot get around. He just killed a buck. And the guy says, I had to do something. He says that there were thirteen bucks went in front of me and I had to take so, you know, he just you know, he just it blew him away that that would even because I think and I thought the same thing early on is when you glass that, you're thinking, there's no way it's too rocky too. But they like it does have brush in there that they like to nibble on. But there's there's the places that they've through the years of you know, pawt out to make a bed on the uphill side of it. Yeah, they like excavate their beds, and they do. That buck I got was in a place I feel a lot of I feel most hunters would would not scrutinize the hill where I found the buck because they're gonna be looking at the meadowy stuff, right, You're gonna see all those beautiful grassy meadows, not realizing that those older box are in the not there in like like hidie holes, like weird spots. You know. When we walked through those trees doing the drive and I saw a bed and I was like, how did this bed even hardly get made? I mean it's like, how do you even level it out? I mean it's but they felt safe up there. I mean we didn't think they were there. Probably nobody thought they were there. I didn't think there's anything living on the side of that dangling gardens. That's that's their bed down the site. You all that they can, especially when it's cold, they can go around it. It gets that it's on a south facing slope and they can get that sun. And yet they've got escape routes you know, out the wazoo. Uh, they can go down if they're spooked. But you were pretty confident when we were there ahead of time with the honest you know, we even said, well wouldn't they go down or whatever? They'll go usually go right around to go around. Yeah. Yeah, when we were looking at it from across the way, you kept saying, see how that bandit timbers rafts right around that point, you know, and it narrows down. It just necks down to where if they want to stay near any kind of timber they have to take this one path. Um. So yeah, anyways, I hate to skip through all that all this day because we had this just this wonderful day of hunting that culminated in this in shooting this box, because we had seen prior to that, I think eight other bogs. We had three inches of fresh snow that morning, like the biggest snow we had gotten. It was the morning after you killed yours. That squall had come in that allowed you to kill yours, laid down about two or three inches depending on where you were in the mountains. And it was just like that. You couldn't pick a better morning. And that's something I'd like to remark on. Did you notice how the weather seemed to really like it was either like very nice or you'd have this like crazy squaw move in and holy shit, and then that would last for not too long and then all sudden just be beautiful again. There wasn't a lot of in between. There's a lot of putting clothes on and taking them off. Laters are very important for um. But yeah, we hiked around a good bit. Like Adam said, we did basically one whole hunt and then decided to continue up the mountain, got back on our horses, and that's when we like, I felt like we graduated to level ten horse riding was that afternoon because we just went off the trail and straight up, straight up. It was the Man from Snowy River, but uphill down. If you watch that movie backwards, it was man, it was it was cool. Um, where do we get to? We got to like, uh, we got to a pass. We got up to a rim that that had could look down into a bowl, great big bowl. It was actually the only time we stopped all day. Did lunch there for about a half hour, and other gnat from dark to dark. We didn't stop moving, right, I mean, other standing glass. Yeah, other than the time when we got up to the top of this unnamed peak and Stewart said I've got a plan and involve you, Adam and Stewart walking the dangling gardens. And I was gonna get to walk down the ridge and go sit and wait for bucks to come around the corner. And uh, yeah, it worked out perfectly. I got Also, I got nestled in and I had a nice little shooting perch when I had my tripods set up where I could shoot zero to two or fifty yards if they came close and if they got by me. And it's kind of spilled out in this big open basin that was to my left. I had my pack already set up so I could switch positions and get on my pack and make a longer shot. You had your mees on plas. Yes, that's culinary term. Yes, four, all your stuff in order. Yeah, you're prep um. I used to do a lot of MEAs in plas. Uh do you know what she was trying to remember? The term? Now, when you cut like a real fine dice, like a quarter inch, what's that called? You gotta have like quarter ins dice carrots and your musing plus come on, you know, I know that when you get your carrots and your onions, your mushroom diced up. It's a mere plais Yeah, no mushroom, so just selary but not to diverge. Um. I was ready and it took a while. You called on the radio and he said are you ready? I said, yeah, said we're starting in. And a lot of times on the drive, I feel like, if it's gonna happen, it happens pretty quick, because you bump something as soon as you get into the patch that you're gonna push, and the deer or the elk or whatever goes through its own and it happens. Well, like fifteen minutes went by, and I'm chatting with Tyler, the camera guy, and I'm like, yeah, I'm half expecting these guys just to pop out at any moment, you know, we'll be getting on out of here. Well, I'm telling myself, stay ready, stay ready, And sure enough, like right on the point of the ridge, here comes two bodies, you know, two bucks coming together. Yep, and uh, they were probably I don't know, a hundred yards hundred fifty yards below me, kind of wrapping around and at some point, for whatever reason, when they were maybe twitter yards away, they decided to come straight up the hill. But I knew they wouldn't go over the top because it's all that shale rock and you know, just there's no nothing to travel on and so they want to kind of hit that stuff. They turned. It almost made it tough because they were coming almost at me. I didn't really have a shot. I would have shot him earlier had he give me, give me a broadside shot when he came and kept just coming at me side to wait until they finally just like the angle decreased and he became broadside and that was probably there was somewhere between fifty and seventy yards. It's pretty close. Piled him up, Yeah, yeah, shot I had. I was shooting for like chest, like front of the front shoulder because he was quartering two pretty severely, and uh he was moving. He just had a little gap that he went through, and uh I touched off, caught him in like the lower neck, lost my neck, grosstst half of one shoulder. But a piled up you didn't go anywhere. There was three three bullets fired and three bucks down. I remember hearing that shot from across the canyon because yeah, and uh, I just listened for the radio chatter after that, and Stewart came on the radio asking if Yanni had shot and Joanni said, I had to shoot him almost in self defense. Yeah, he was gonna go for me. It was good. I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do my concluders, My concluders A two part concluder. Okay, um, part my part. One of my concluder is we had there was a big winter kill, two big winter kills in western Wyoming. And don't don't they estimate that about fifty of the mule deer got killed. Well, our phone mortality was over and uh, I don't know what the total, but you know, you look you lose over your your phone crop that severe. And we had talked about doing this hunt a couple of years ago in Landing. Uh generously in character with himself, UH said, you know, you guys might want to wait a little bit to see kind of how things are gonna shake out with the meal to your population. Um. And there's still some chatter, you know, in in in Um people who like to hunt this area to some still some chatter about is it worth it or not? And how are the mule that you're doing? Uh? My sense after looking around, is that barring another weather catastrophe Um, this place is gonna be special in a couple of years because there are a lot of up and coming I don't know if it always seems like that, but there seems to be like a lot of up and coming bucks, like a lot of like classic four by four mule deer Bucks on the mountain right now that are younger your three and four year old bucks. Yeah. And if, like unless something some kind of other catastrophe would happen, I'd have to think that things are gonna be like things are gonna be kind of back to the good old days. The genetics, the genetics are all there, and and the ones that survived that those tough winners are only going to pass on those good genetics and continue to build our herd. Um And. So I you know, I think what we saw this week, you know, I we probably saw forty or fifty different bucks, um and, and a good chunk of those, I think, being four point that are up and coming gonna be the majority. This is really surprising, the majority. It almost you always have to worry about the where are all the forkys? So I don't know where you guys are gonna be at five years, but in one or two years. That's what they know. And that points out the fact when you don't see that many forkies, that you realize that, yeah, that the fun mortality was up. That was two years ago. Whenn't it well too well, I think too back almost back to back, we've had the almost comparable. It's true we did not see a lot of films. There are a lot of like books that are like like Doug during says, there are a lot of nice buck next year's Um. That's my one observation. The second we don't do many um a lot of us with you, none at all. We don't do many hunts to go out with outfitters. Uh. But man, it's real eye opening. Um. I realized that it's almost like a kind of it's almost like a like a like a kind of vanity or something, or like a kind of pride that uh would prevent one partially to prevent one from wanting to go and like have someone else be really in the driver's seat, you know. Um, you get to relacate, like, oh, I know how to do you know, I know what I'm doing. I'll do it, by God, I can do it myself. Uh. And I kind of over the years developed that sentiment a little bit. And and there's another friend of ours, Jay Scott, who I've spent something he's a guide and spend some time around him. Um, and you learn a lot. It was fun, Like it was really fun to be out with you guys and see, Um, you have phenomenal game eyes. I want to know if you have a good game. I in looking for those animals in that spot. I'd love to see if you got a good game I somewhere else. I don't know, like if you were in Michigan, would you be spotting deer through thick brush all the time? Would you'd be like, there's a dear ankle twenty yards away? Or um, you know, you guys have phenomenal game eyes. And then just the stuff about the horses, and I appreciate and hanging out with you guys. That's why I would just so hardly recommend people that want to go do a hunt like this to hook up with you guys. Is um you you teach like you guys teach without lecturing. I don't know quite know how to put it, but in a very like gracious, friendly way of just wanting not wanting to like get people to do what you want to do, but just wanting to get people to um have an experience. Yeah, like you have an experience and come away a better person. Like you really shared a lot of information. You shared a lot of information in a very cool way, like a really digestible, friendly way. Um without ever yeah, without ever seeming like you guys are look down on your clients, are annoyed by your guests, right, or that you're there, like you'd got it done so fast if they weren't there kind of attitude. It was really fun. But I had a really really great six days of hanging out with you. Well it's like I told you guys that before we left. You know, it's fun to hunt with guys that are willing and game hunters to do what it takes to hunt in a fair chase style. Uh, and know that there's always a chance that you might not find that uh dream buck that you imagined that you were going to see behind every tree. I think you honest, And I've talked earlier about the you know, the tough winner, and that there was always that possibility. We hadn't really seen what what we were gonna experience, but what it became apparent and I have to be honest, I was nervous knowing that you guys had you know, eight eight points. That's a lot of points, UH had taken and cash in on those to come and hunt with us this year. Uh, maybe it'd be a disaster that we wouldn't see any dear that it was. It was gonna be that tough, But you guys made it worthwhile to with because you guys had good game eyes, which improves our ability of saying, Okay, we know the train. You guys you know may have seen that buck. Now we know how a little bit how to get to that. Those are things that to me, the experience of the hunter that comes and hunts with us is is overall, whether it's in camp, whether it's on horseback, because the more you can enjoy the horseback ride, the more you'll enjoy the overall hunt, because uh, it's no fun if if if you're just if you got you know, puckered up, but in the saddle thinking thinking when this ride gonna be over? You know, I I to me it it just I could empathize because I knew I grew up on a horse and the first time I went with Dad hunting as a fourteen year old boy and we were traversing across a sidehill that was slick and snowy, and my horse slipped. It just frightened me to death. And that Wow, I don't know if i've it's not very comfortable scenario. Yeah, it's been a lot time wondered what's like to have one of those things roll over on you. But you had you rolled over on you. You were all right in the creek. Gotta get out of the way. Yeah, seth, what you got You got a good concluder, even bad conclue. I don't care. Um, I don't know if I'm quite a horseman yet. No, you're allergic to horses stuff the whole time, says the eyes are water and his nose is running. Um, it's like being out on a boat with honest. After this week, I respect horses in a way that I've never I've never done before. Um, I've always kind of like just rode him off because I'm, you know, always miserable when I'm around them. Grow Let's thing. You grew up on a farm, though, but you guys raise hogs and whatnot. We had horses too when I was younger. Just I never like, I don't know, I just never pay attention to never drawn to him. Yeah, I never drawn to him. Um, But watching Landing and Stewart do what they do with horses and and just like the overall experience this week, um makes everybody want to be a cowboy on that. Oh yeah, I was like riding out being like, where would I keep a horse? Yeah? Seems like you know what, maybe I'll keep one out in Maths place. Honest, I asked you the same thing on the way out today we were riding MI. So you think you'd ever get horses? Right? Yeah, first, I I'm just gonna start with some chaps and a hat. I mentioned getting a horse and keeping the mats, and yeah, it's like, oh yeah, just let it go feral. And I'm like, probably probably that I'd get kicked in the head by it and sell it. But if you just weared the cat, the hat and the shaps, you'll be considered a drug store cowboy until you've been through and had that hat banged up a few times and stepped on him. Well, that's partly not true. His land And was the saying that he does even he wears his baseball cap out riding horses and doesn't put his cowboy head on until he goes to buy a horse there's or a cow, yeah, or a cow. Those hats don't come cheap. These chaps that Stewart's got it on pretty nice here, Stewarts. And they're muddy too, they're still muddy. That's horse power mud. But it could be a little blood on there too. But uh, you know, all of the stuff that we experience, you know, you're you're realizing through the years for us. Uh, I was raised on a ranch like cowboys, a lot out on the range, but most of my cowboy was done without a hat and with tennis shoes because I had an image of a cowboy, you know, because of what I had seen. Some of the cowboy images I had weren't the kind of heroes that I you know, there are a lot of great cowboys that I could probably call heroes, but back in my day, of people that I observed weren't weren't cowboy heroes. Uh. And the dress didn't impress me. Oh, I got you associated with reality rather than the mythics exactly. And so you know, it wasn't until I got out of high school that I, you know, really engaged and wearing the Wrangler pants all the time. Found out they were comfortable, they wear good and uh cowboy boots were comfortable and and uh, but I like a hat in the mountains because it is a it that brim sticks out and it becomes my uh you know, my test against pine bows. If I feel pine bows starting to hit my hat, I know to duck my head. Instead of a hat band, you leave your head lamp on there all day long. That true. I forget to put it in my pack because you know we're leaving in the dark and we'll go headed home in the dark. So and in a rainstorm where those hats sure keep that rain from running down here that in the pine needles they don't get down. The back of your neck is easily snow too. I have some epic photos of Stewart in a snowstorm, just snow drying neck, snow laying on top of his hat. I can't wait to get home those photos of anywody got Oh man, we had Tyler and I got to ride a bucking blondie who are attached at the hip figuratively, and uh, we got our horsemanship marit badge. I felt at least an honorary horsemanship Marrit Badge. The day that you guys left us hunting in that zone to go and where you guys found your buck, remember that. And so we got well we knew on radios at some point in the day, but then we got there and there's a little note in my gun scabbard and said that's where it was. Yeah, yeah, because that's where I was gonna probably go to first. But you had an us. There's a lot less horses than where. Yes, yeah, but I said, we've gone up the mountain and you boys get back after dark on your own, and uh, let us know what you're up to landing, And uh it was so we knew we had h ride by ourselves. So we left a little bit earlier than I probably would have if Landing was there. We had maybe thirty minutes of light left, and uh, it was snowing a little bit. It was quiet like it is after a fresh snow, and just you know, only two horses and just we didn't talk and there was no headlamps and we kind of rode and it just darkness slowly felt. I mean that's why you call it Magic Mountain. I mean, just like an amazing like people pay ten thousand dollars to experience that. You know, it was probably on the way in. I think it took us two hours. I bet you we got back to camp and just over an hour because when they go back to camp, they're using third gear, not first. Yeah, they know they're headed back, man, But man, was it cool in the darkness. Well again, fresh snow and maybe a touch of moonlight coming take that same route out of there we were coming around. I think we still had the lake near us. We're on a pretty open hillside and we're kind of coming out of the timber and maybe only fift twenty yards away. There's a small cow elk standing on the trail facing us, and the horse didn't see her quite as soon as I did. If she took like three more steps and then stopped and they just kind of had a stare off, and finally the cow elk spooked. After that, Blondie was not taking the lead anymore. I had been in the lead, and she went up the hill and then just stood there and looked over her shoulder and Bud had to take the lead after that. Yeah, um, but yeah, it was it was a special evening. Special ride out. Um so yeah, man, I mean like you were saying, what a special experience. I think that's it's it's an iconic hunt to go into the mountains ten miles on horseback, um, hunt off of horseback. When you read about it, people right, novels, you know, many hunting magazines have stories of him and every fall about the adventure. We just did it, you know, And if you want to do one with some capable and trustworthy outfitters that have their program tight, these guys be the ones to do it with. I agree, Steve, can I say a couple of so I didn't, Oh no, no. I felt like you know when somebody invites you to their home and you know, the shoes come off and you're just you're comfortable, and maybe you're commenting on the taxidermy on the wall. You go into the garage and see what they have, and you just you feel like they just open up to you. That's how I felt. I think with Stewart and Landing, it was like, especially for Stewart because of all the years and even Landing since what going up there since you were four is I mean every every tree. I mean we even commented on the way out today on the horses. How we went in there and we'd looked on you know, the computer, different things you know, on AC and Google, you know, uh, you know, Earth or whatever. But we went in and came out felt like we knew that so much better after a week. Imagine thirty years or you know, twenty years or whatever it is to see it. And I felt like we got a view kind of into their living room, you know of them. Well tonight we got here, you remember the restaurant was closed. Yeah, we we got here after nine pm. Within and both their wives were there. Yeah, pancakes and bacon, all those things. But then to go up there too, I felt like it was such this they have this pride and all those rocks and the you know, the you know, the crooked sky and all those different things, and that I felt like they had this like they just opened it up. And and I think it was an honor for us to be able to be brought into something that was so special for them. For me anyhow, Okay, you guys get to do years, but one of you. I hate to tell what a man what his concluder needs to be, but you should tell people how to come and find you, the best way to come find you and like and what you offer. You know, what kind of hunts you guys do well? UM. Obviously all guests go on on the beginning that, UM, we have an Instagram page, we have a Facebook page, We've got a website up, UM that we'd invite you to go check out. UM or we are a little bit lacking in some of that stuff. UM, but we're trying to make it better. UM. But we would encourage that. We do like to talk with people on the phone so we can be very up front and direct and tell him kind of what we got. So you know, emails work. We don't mind correspondence through emails. We'd encourage that. But you know, give us a call. We're not afraid to spend time talking with you, talking, you know, and if you got a buck tag that you've been putting in for you know, eight years, you know we're gonna be honest with you if we feel like it's gonna be a good year. UM. But ELK, a guy could come on ELK on two to three points, two to three points and and we saw I'm gonna interrupt and just mentioned like if you had two or three points right now for Wyoming, I'd really recommend coming we saw Yeah, yeah, I'm I got a boatload of outpoints, but I'm I know it's pretty cool, really neat bulls. You know one bull we got on videos three fifty plus. I mean, there's some really good genetics there. Our age group of our bulls is where they needs to be. Our bowl of cow ratio is really high. UM. But you know that's the thing that you know, as an outfit or we hope to be able to provide an expert opinion for people to be able to spend their money as as best as possible. Um. You know, so if they come and hunt with us, they know that their best interest is going to be held within it within us to say, hey, you know, this year is a good year. We're gonna do everything we can to get you because we know, you know, money doesn't always come easy for people, UM, as it hasn't for us UM growing up. And so that's one of the things we want people to feel confident in is that you know, money is really not our motive. UM. And so the way we manage the area we try to not over over hunt. UM. We try to be very good stewards of the area that we hunt to give people a good experience, and that's ultimately what we try to pursue as an outfitter UM and I guess that's what you could say we live by UM. Money does not drive what we do. It's the love of giving people the opportunity to experience, to fulfill dreams that they've had. You guys were very clear with us about what uh, what you expect and what you've seen, and there was nothing but pleasant surprises. Man, Well, we appreciated what hunting with you guys. I think that was one of the things that was most impressive to me was you know, obviously you guys know how to glass, you guys know how to hunt. That was very apparent, But it's the way you interact and the way you treat people. You know. We we felt, you know, very much UM at ease with you guys. And so, you know, I had a lot of people ask, you know, what was it like to hunt with them? What was it like? What are they like as people? You know, obviously people portray a certain way when they're on the video, you know, what are they like in person? And I never felt from a single one of the crew any kind of look down upon because of your status, you know, because of where you are at um in your life and what your your social status is. Would never felt that from any of you guys, and so we appreciated being able to hunt with you. It was a great experience that we learned, you know, things as we watched and observed how you hunted and and and how you went about things. You know, the little butt pad, I think we're gonna take that and adopt that. I mean, it's it's one of those things that if you guys can find, um, if you guys can find half of a ridge rest, you guys can hold on. If you get half of ridge rest each have two butt pads. Well that's what we want because I mean, those fine bows they only work for so long. So that was one thing we watched. You know, we do spend a lot of time on our butts glass and that was something we saw from you guys that thought, you know, that's probably a worse while thing to do. Especially yes, and this time of year, you never know what the weather's gonna be like. And mine doubles as a napping pad, that's right, Stuart. Do you have any final observations, well, any any kind of thing doesn't matter. Well, for me, it was it was just a fun experience with you. You guys like to hunt, enjoy the outdoors. I I find more pleasure and I I find my friendship. This kindled quicker with people that appreciate that, like I love it and appreciate it. I never felt like at any point was the honey area um overrun by the thought of I can throw my trash or my sacks anything, because I and I've made it clear with hunters in the past that and maybe it was the older generation because I had to get after my own dad to do you that you're saying people would like to put their like a little sandwich bag. You under put the sandwich bag or there might Back in the early days when my dad guide it, they used to put out a little cana. I don't know, some these a little cans of juice, and uh. I remember hearing some of that generation say, well, it's just a monument to what you know, the people have sat down on this mountain before. I mean, I don't want that kind of monument. I wanted to be pristine because I often find myself thinking about when I'm on top of a ridge looking across the expanse of the mountain range, you know, ahead what may have been like as a as an early explorer of that country, laying ice for the first time on that land. I think about it often and and it it causes me to to be a little bit nostalgic in my thought process. And so people that respect and have an enjoyment, I have a you know, my friendship is kindled right away in my interest in your own lives. And lastly, is it And I've said this to Landing many times, and I learned this a lot from my uncle, who he said, we want to do good in the world, and I think if we can, we can do good in the world by showing people the beauties that God created for man to enjoy, which we did. I think that's that to me, is one of the greatest fulfillments of what I get out of it. My wife says, why do you like it so much? It's so hard, You're late nights and early mornings, it's cold, it's stormy, And I said, it's hard to explain. But when I share the view of a beautiful scene upon a mountain under a horse or not under the horse. Hopefully we're on top to horse, but on top of a horse, a good horse. And and uh, you're just saying, man, well, look at that landscape or look at that uh you know, look at that big bull, beautiful big bull, or the sunset all that stuff. For me to enjoy that with another person that enjoys that. Uh, it's like we were kindred spirits that we we must have liked the same things, you know, before we ever landed on earth, so that we would have this opportunity to cross pass and enjoy it again. Because to me, this is uh, that's what it's all about, is enjoying what's before us. I guess early on, you know, as a as an outfitter and as a guide. Uh, it was tough for me to to not get an animal, you know, because my first several years I never missed. I I was sure I was gonna get my game as soon as the start of guiding that quit. I've probably in in thirty years, I've probably only killed maybe four or five animals. Never asked you about the last time, yell he says about decade ago or somebody. It's just it's just one of those things that Now, the fulfillment is being able to share what I know to hopefully be successful in getting somebody an opportunity to fulfill a dream, to to experience something that becomes a memory burned deep in their inside it says, hey, that was worth doing. One thing that illustrates, uh, you guys capacity for reverence. Uh, that I thought was quite impressive was what you went through to be able to go to church with your families on Sunday, to hunt all day and then after dark strike off on horseback to ride seven miles seven miles and then drive I don't know how many how long you got home at three am to go to church and your families then come riding back up into the mountains. Well, you know, we were a lot of people don't want to go a mile down the road. You know, we years ago we established the policy that we try to rest our horses and our guide just much on the side the day, just to help revive them, help them to stay in good spirits. And and we've even found that that hunters that have come with us may initially think I'm not sure I want to be able to hunt on Sunday. When they've had that break, say it's there that their hunt takes a Sunday in the middle of there, Uh, their hunt that they're thinking, we're grateful to heal up a few saddle sores and and it just revived the physically, and then they're they're they're ready for another day. But the reality of it is that we feel like that, uh, that heavy Father's been really good to us. Um. We've had very few incidents with people being injured on the mountain, and I think it's because we try hard to to reverence that day for us and and uh the back country and the animals and and so it's yet it's sometimes seems like a sacrifice, but it's always been a wonderful blessing to to be able to get out and and and refocus on some things that really are most important. That's the family. Uh. And even if even it's only for half a dozen hours and then back in to something that we can you know, we're ready, we're ready to be geared up to do it again. Uh. So it's it's it's a fun thing. Oh yeah, I didn't. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't find it any kind of annoyance. I thought it was I thought it was admirable. Well, we we appreciate that those are things to us that mean a lot to us. Uh and uh as I sensed us. We've talked with you guys on the mountain, which is a fun thing about how you you know your families. The family is where the lasting happening is really will come over over and above any of the other stuff that that we may you know, achieve in life. Yeah, you know it's good in in Uh. You guys pulled some long days and it and it is you you come out, you guys. But I guess sometimes you guys pulled. You guys pulled twenty hour days there there they'll end up with twenty hours and you you know, you you come down a little jaded, you lose a little weight, but it doesn't take you long and put that weight back and you know when you get hold. But let me also comment though, because they're saying all these things that when Stewart and I did go to recover my buck, he did put a rifle in his scabbard and I said, oh, Stuart, what are you doing? I said, you never know if we're gonna jump a big old buck up there, are we gonna go tell Steve and you're honest, and he just gotta gives me this smirk, so he still got it into he said, I got a tag. That's good. Well, guys, thanks so much, um for taking us out. Thanks for coming on the show. I know you've been you you put in a very long week this week, so I'm glad he could come join us on the show. But I was I was very excited to kind of share some of your perspectives in the details of your business with with our listeners. So I know quite often people, um, you know, who don't have a lot of experience will ask, like, what would be a good way to kind of dip my toes into this whole thing, and it's it's nice to have found um, not that you, but some other people too. Uh guides. We know that where you'd be like, that would be a worthwhile Uh, that'd be a worthwhile venture to go on to hook up with you guys on a trip. So I encourage people to come find you. We appreciate that that that means a lot coming from guys that know how to hunt, and it's fun, Like say, it's fun to hunt with guys that like to hunt and know how to hunt. Yeah, it really does. We we learned from you, like to say, the butt pad idea. We call man a debt factor. Coming back was it? What night was it was? It was Sunday night, coming back in. I had seen a little pad sleeping pad that fell off somebody's back back, probably during the archery d and I've ridden past the time or two, you know, several times. But after seeing what you guys, I thought, I told Land and I said, hey, pick that up, book, cut that up. So a last but not least if you had to raise our group as her horseman, not individually, because I want you to point out one guy that really sucked on a horse. Yeah. Yeah, and don't cut the fact to be four days to figure out how to tie a quick release. Not as a group. Yeah, you can be one to ten. Yeah. I would say that you started out probably in the three to four range. That's pretty good places. And I think by the end I think you were, you'd gained probably another three or four points that I did. I you know, obviously you got used to the horse that you were riding. You were comfortable, and I thought it would be fun if you switched it up, because the more horses different personality horses ride, the better you become. Oh, instead of being used to the same how the horse behaves, a true horseman is becomes adaptable to the type of horses riding at that time. But did you guys be honest when you guys went into your bunk at night, did you guys goof on seuth a little bit? I didn't get the se seth too much. I did. I did talk a little bit about Mike's ability to control his horse, because if he had decided they wanted to go off trail, it was going off trail. A lot of it had to do with the fact that, uh, he didn't have a hold of the reins other way up on the ends, which has no control, so he was he was on autopilot. Yeah, that was fun. It's great. That was an awesome, awesome trip. Alright, guys, thanks again, Thank you,