00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is an eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten in my case, underwear listening. Un don't make you eat podcast. You can't predict anything, all right, everyone, thanks for coming out. Man, I'm gonna I'm gonna break with protocol a little bit and do intros um. Thank you, thank you, thanks, Yeah, honest, the laughing eagle down man. Uh Cody Louhan, who describes himself earlier as having come from let me get this right, come from a ranching and Olympic ski jumping family. Uh, this guy could do what you mind? This guy competition but shure, sure, this guy. You can't see it. He has a hat, he has a farmer's tan on his head. He has the pale lines of his hat stitching wedding. Ryan Callahan from all the way, all the way from First Light World headquarters in catch Him, Idaho, and then Colorado's own Brodie Henderson who's on the mediator crew. Brody's a semi retired fly fishing guide. Yeah that's good way putting, good way of putting it. But yeah, man, thanks for coming out. And I come through uh Denver a fair bit. Last time I came through here, I had one of you guys, big giant held your box, which I took back home with me. Um earlier though another time I went to has anyone who ever been to the lynden Meyer the Lindenmeyer site, you know about this? Okay? So like if you go way back in time, so like the first culture of American hunters that that emerge as like a distinctly American culture was this place called this group called the Clovis Hunters, and they were ice age hunters, so they hunted mammoths and short faced bears, and they were widely dispersed, and they developed this very distinctive projectile point called the Clovis Point. It's regarded as a diagnostic projectile point where if you find one and look at it, you're like, that is thirteen thousand plus years old, and that's who made that thing, was the Clovis. Now, around the time when Clovis came is debated about how this happened. But all that mega fauno, the mammoths, Masodon, short faced bears, you know, nine genera of large mammals all vanished kind of contemporanis with the arrival of cloth of Us and out of this came all these different cultures, and the culture that emerged here where we are now was this culture called the Fulsome culture, and so most of the ice age stuff was all gone, and Fulsome was a group of slightly post ice age hunters from around twelve thousand years ago who basically hunted the same stuff we hunt today because all that crazy stuff was gone. Lynden Meyer is the second most famous Fulsome site. The most famous Folsom site is in northeast New Mexico, and it's called the Folsome site, and you're Folsom, New Mexico. And that's where Folsom was identified. And they had driven uh thirteen bison Antiquoius up into a dead end canyon and killed him with adeladdles and butchered them all on site, and it was a temporary encampment. Was crazy about lynden Meyer. Lynden Meyer, just north here is the oldest known place that we have which would have been what we now think of as a ron avou of hunters. It seems as though at times, for some unknown reason, hundreds of falsome hunters would show up at the linden Meyer site, so many that their their projectile points kind of distinctive as regarded as the most difficult projectile point to make, because they would knock a channel out of each face of their projectile point, and they would have they would have that thing. So you've got a spearhead, a foreshaft, and there's even a camel bone for foreshaft that came out of linnen Meyer. So they were maybe dabbling with some stuff that's now extinct, but they would deal these like little fluted points and they'd have them in a thing. And that flute, that channel that they would knock out is distinctive of a falsome point, and that the Lindenmeyer site they have excavated one thousand channels, so that many guys making these very specialized points there when they were there. They ate jack rabbit, cotton tail rabbit, bison, they ate venison. Oftentimes they'll be eating turtle and they eat turtle at linden Meyer. So great generalist hunters and people often wonder like, well, how could it have been that these people who lived at such low population densities, how could they have all found each other? And why did they come together? And it's funny because they had they brought to Lindenmeyer site. They had red ochre. They came out of northern Wyoming, and they had toolstone. They came out of the Texas Panhandle. In it's regarded that the folsome hunter has lived at such low densities. It doesn't make sense that they did hand to hand trading. There probably wasn't enough them to have trade channels. It's thought that because they had great fidelity to stone sources, they seem to be more associated with quarries where they would get the very particular type of rocks that they like to use to make projectile points. They had more fidelity to the stone source than they did to their hunting grounds. But they liked linden Meyer maybe because you're kind of in the mountains, you're kind of on the plains. You have the foothills, there's a lot of stuff to hunt, and there's this big, multi story geologic feature there that's like a red and white bands of rock, and you can see this thing from eighteen miles away. There's a theory that you could say to a dude down in the Texas Panhandle and ice Age America, just walk up the edge of the mountains and when you see right that's where we'll meet in five years. And somehow it would work out that these mass accumulations of folsom hunters would gather at the linden Meyer site. So I bring that up only because, um, here you have their generalist hunters. They eat a wide array of things that people might now regard as a little unusual, and they would gather under this large structure. And here we all are again to night twelve thousand seven, dred years later, gathered in the Oriental Theater of Denver. So welcome. Uh, There's there's a couple of housekeeping issues we have to take care of. Uh. Is a guy named Dan and his wife Ashley and his daughter's scout want to wish him a happy Father's Day? So who's that? Callian? There's a company I gotta finish up? Uh? Callahan just got it. Was telling about a chicker bite on his scroll. But I told you that happens to your confidence. Uh. We've talked many times about cleaning morrell mushrooms. Now, Brody, can I tell me this guy was roughly where you live? Tell where you live? Just south of Steamboat Stagecoach. Has anyone here? Has anyone here found a Morrell within Let's say, what's the fair radius that you would say there are has anyone sawnd a Morrell within fifty miles of Brody's house? Really that? Uh? Do you guys find Morrells in Colorado? Eastern Colorado, but not up in the mountains, not in the mountain point being Callahan. We've talked at length about cleaning Morrell's. A chef wants you to know that he washes them, does wash them to get all the bugs and dirt off, dries them in a salad spinner A bunch of times, leaves the water that falls out of the salad spinner in the bottom of the salad spinner, places it in this fridge for two days. It somehow holds enough humidity and the fridge is climate is such that when you pull the Morrell out of that salad spinner, it is indistinguishable from when you picked it out of the dirt. I just want you to know that another guy wants to know this. He's trying to figure out when he dies. Go ahead, and he would tell this chef that he is losing mushroom. He's beating that mushroom up fire too much. Okay, that means that now this Morrell conversation will have to continue into future. I'm trying. I'm trying to take care of a couple of things just need to be put to rest. House clean, the housekeeping, keep it going. Uh. The guy wanted to know this. We had talked a lot about. I talked about what I want to happen to my carcass when I die. He has it that he wants to be cremated, but then his wife is supposed to take the ash and have it made into clay pigeons and then hold a clay pigeon shoot where his friends come and shoot him out of the sky. So he goes on to say, I'm not even sure if there's a company that does that. Maybe after first flight cal you could get into that business. Yeah, always thinking. Uh, another question, and this is pertinent for something else. Why blouch? Where did blouch come from? J honest? Can you give background on blouch? It's just how you say boom or bang in Latvian and Latvian I've been when I learned from Janice's father Joannice, all Lavians are named honest, Yeah, they're true, like janice Is father Johannest. When I heard the word blouch from whom it became my favorite word, and everyone assumed that it's b l o u c h and and Yanic's clarified, that's not it. It's b l o u k S with a a u k s a u a s with a blank. So if you go and look, we're we're we have our special blouch t shirts Meteor Podcast blout shirts. It is not misspelled. It's spelled the right way. Also you'll find our posters. And there's a story about the poster. One day, I was talking about if I was a painter, what I would paint. Is a scene that was described to me by our friend Brandon Butler, which is he was watching a turkey gobble on a cold morning and he described how in that turkey would rip out a gobble, you would see steam come out of his beak. And I was so moved by that I said that if I was a painter, I would make that painting. And so we had a fan make a special turkey steam breathing gobble turkey And that is the story behind that special commemorative me Eater Podcast steam Breathing Turkey poster. So that is explained. Now moving on in another thing. Let me see, I want to make sure this is our last squirrel keeping are let up, this is the last girl keeping, last piece of housekeeping, and this is another thing we really need to put the rest. A long time ago, I argued that when someone says like things got off of Western, right, which I've never heard. I grew up in Michigan. But if you were like, things got awful Western there, and I said, yeah, like squirrely, and people wrote in a guy rolling, He's like no, because Western there is an implied physical danger in Western that is absent from squirrely. So I did a long correction where I said, I stand corrected, Um, squirrely is like He used example, like Jana stepped on an arrow, the arrow now shoots squirrely. Okay uh, he used example cal hand hit on a guy's girlfriend in a bar. Things got Western. But he but this guy writes and he says the correction needs to be corrected. He's from South Florida. He says, in the motor sports world, squirrely damn sure has a sense of physical danger involved. When you're going down the road and your bike gets squirrely, watch out, it's not good. And he also says that he introduced me to a term which is squid, which is a squirrely kid. And another guy wrote in to wind up saying that he says, in addition to Western and squirrely, you need to be aware of two terms from the Northeast, which is snotty and sporty. He goes on to explay he's a he's a turn works largely in the legal cannabis market right now, so he's very busy, and he says that if c's pick up to a level where it's just you're uncomfortable, but it's not perilous, one would describe that as being a bit snotty. If things pick up from there and you really need to be paying attention, things have now gotten sporty. He also uses sporty when describing heated professional discussions. That's the housekeeping portion. So thank you. Baron with us now to get into some of the meat here, um trying to get how best to bring this up. There's something we need to resolve. Okay, I'm gonna do this. The five people present up here on stage to start off, We're gonna handle like this. Is there a grizzly bear in Colorado right now. Okay, if if you believe, yes, raise your hand. Oh all right, there's a there's a little background to this. We've we've been quibbling or getting snotty or getting western over the past couple of days. Um, I will say, I don't know if there's a grizz in Colorado here today, but I can say unequivocally, Um, some of you know my background in the in the woods and otherwise, but unequivocally, I witnessed a young male bore grizzly in northern Colorado last year, just a few miles south of the Wyoming border, out in some stage brush. And uh, that's I stand, That's where I stand, And that's fantastic. Yeah. So it's kind of like, can we go into a little background. Yeah, let's go a little background. But let's go, let's go deep dive. Let's do it. Okay, deep dive. Let me consult my stuff here, because I want to give you guys, like a little background on the issue. Um. Well, I should point out I usually like to point out when it was a good transition. You remember earlier talking about how the fulsome guys brought Ochre down from Wyoming. Huh, I remember that vaguely grizzlies coming down from Wyoming like that transition. So where are you leading? This has the ochre broder You're saying yes, Say like, what do you all famous grizzly bears from the old days? Sharon Common Old Old f from was the last bear in Utah? You know, New Mexico had an old grizzly of some name Old Mose, Old Most, Old Silver, now Old Mose. I want to talk about Old Mose a little bit because Brady Brodio, we're talking about Old Mose recently, who met his end in four uh. Old Mose was a bear. His name comes from the fat that he mosied around. And you'll find when you're looking at like old famous bear stories like the Last Grizzly here in the Last Grizzly there they sharing common extraordinarily long life span where Old Most seems to have terrified people for forty years. And to account for the fact that he was terrifying people across the entirety of the state, the same rascally bear that refused to be caught, he someone had to account for, like how he could be everywhere all at once, So he naturally became Old Mose as in the Mosying around Bear and His Old Moses legend Star is a guy named Jason Jacob Radcliffe who's out hunting deer and elk, gets mauled by a bear in eighteen three. His buddies find him. He's dying in the woods. They load him on a horse, bring him down to a ranch, and he expires with probably my favorite dying words of all time, which is boys, don't hunt that bear. And this was down in the Arkansas River training. Okay, So people then don't take his advice and they just start hunting that bear, and every bear that anyone goes near it turns out to be Old Mose. And there's a guy where at a point there's a skeleton turns up and there's a skeleton, some boots, some spurs, and a car bean and the bones have been gnawed on, and that death is abscribed to Old most of course Bention. In the spring of n four, a couple of guys, so this is a year after, like this is the year after the Right Brothers had their first sustained flight and the heavier than air vehicle to set it in time and four, a guy named Wharton Pig and James Anthony gets some hounds and they get after old mos and they catch it and it it turns into a very squirrely, very Western shootout. Anthony later describes hitting the old moles behind the shoulder, and he used the terms, I still don't know what it means. What's my new favorite term. He hits it in the shoulder, and the bullet lodged up against on the other side a place that he describes as the sticking place, which like the shoulder blade, maybe that muscle behind the shore, like a spot. Do what you think it wouldn't that be like like if you're gonna knife a hog or you know what I mean, the sticking place, that's the place where you stick that pig. That's gotta be right here. Yeah, yeah, I thought he meant that there's like a spot that he finds that his bullets wind up in without exiting the sticking place, but he means like the entry point place would be a great name for a bar. Actually, yeah, that definitely trumps um No West bott My brother wanted to name one the repeat offender um but uh yeah, and the sticking place that's gotta be The sticking place means so so dies old Mos and kind of like so dies a legend and then it winds up being that the last bear vanishes. Let me just get make sure I'm getting my facts straight. Here, the last bear in Colorado up unto a point, the last bear was what years everybody the last one when they think they killed the last one was the government. So that was like a known thing where a government trapper goes out and on contract kills one stand Juan where they were known to be like the last holdout a bear of grizzlies in Colorado. And then somehow weirdly and this is where this is where Cody, this is where like this is the thing that starts to add up. What this is where it starts to add up where it gets squirrel because so last grizzlies gone. But in nineteen seventy nine, long comes Ed Wiseman. Who can you tell the ball of Ed Wiseman. He's walking down a trail again the sand Juan in the San juans Alu. Do basic, man, what's seventy twenty seven years after the last Grizzli has been killed, here's Ed. He's archery hunting apparently, And I believe what's the wilderness area. Now I don't think it was. Then it may have been, but um, the story is obviously convoluted, as these kind of things go. But um, Supposedly he gets jumped by a grizzly and manages too And this is like before archery hunters were commonly using compound bow. So he's hunting with a he's hunting the rieker bow wood arrows, gets jumped by angry grizzly and uh, manages to kill it by stabbing it with the arrow and in the heart, like I mean like place place, and uh, you know, they investigate the whole thing because some people later claimed that he shot the bear. His hunting partners claimed that, yeah, his hunting partners some and I don't this is just internet lord, But like some of his hunter partners later said no, no, no no, no, he got onto it in the meadow, put a stock on and narrowed it right. But he passed a lie detector tests when they passed, and no one contested, Like, there's no one that contested the legitimacy of the place. It was confirmed by I believe confirmed by by biologists as at grizzly, and they went and searched the whole state after that. I was five years old. Yeah, and they launched a very thing to add in about this bear ship. It was so it was old, arthritic, its claws and teeth were war down. But but it had at some point it's life bore young, right, so it had been a reproductively viable bear. Where we sit right now, the closest grizzlies are two miles away, right, probably over two hundred from here, the southern end of the wind River Range. So here you have a twenty five year absence. Is that what that math comes out to? A seven year absence from from the last bear? No, no, no, I'm saying that first absence and then there's one bamn miraculous. Now, like some some writers get involved in this, right like Rick Bass did a did a book about it, and David Peterson did a book about the search. But no one's ever then turned up proof. Now there's a ton here. But I just want to throw this out real quick. Uh. A bowl hunter from Australia named Adam Greentree saw one last year. He's in a tough spot though not being Americans, in a tough spot because like if I was in Australia, Okay. Let's say I go to Australia and I'm like, oh, hey, by the way, the wombats aren't distributed. How you guys understand wombats to be distributed? You can imagine the degree to which right the resistance I'm gonna get. So he's like, it's like a it's a tough stance to take as someone who can't represent lifelong exposure to to grizzlies and black bears, um walking through the single little more so that an exhaustive search, the consensus, the scholarly academic consensus is no. But people routinely come forward, and oftentimes credible people come forward, and you're like, I saw one, right, absolutely incredible. I have the cross he's got, he's got a sunburned like, he's got a farmer's stand on the top of his head. The guy, the guy spends time out in the woods. Now you get into like, why does this matter? And I think that so give your stance on why it matters? How do you do? How down far down the rabbit hole do we want to go? Um? I think I think it matters from a few standpoints. I mean, I think people have the literally just a basic right to know, you know, if these animals are here, I think there is a potential safety issue going forward. Um. I don't think there's many of these bears, but you know, we call it kind in my world, the Sagebrush Telegram, which is a lot of the you know, communications between ranchers and people who live in rural communities, and so, you know, conspiracy theories run rampant no matter where you are, especially when it comes to Apex predators, wolves, wolverines and now grizzlies apparently and so um anywhere where where I thought I saw where I saw this bear is um. Come to find out three other families had apparently seen the same animal within like a five or six mile radius within a two week span of when I saw it. So I think people have we need to know if these animals are actually coming down through here, especially with what's going on with now that the state is finally admitted that we have an established wolf population here in College, which was used to be only Cook said that. So they haven't admitted that there's an established wolf population, they've admitted that there's wolves traveling into the state. Know, I believe there was, um because we had some of the wolf meetings. I'm also from old Steamboat Springs, UM. We had for the wolf meetings, there was a statement, and perhaps I'm wrong, but I do believe that it said that it was an established wolf Colorlation Parks and Wildlife guy that we talked to today. So the wolves are transient only, but a bunch of them, but we see them there. It's a lot of them. So I think, you know, in the same breath, I think it's important for people to know what what's going on here in Colorado. We've had a confirmed wolverine, We've got wolves. What's keeping the grizz from crossing? This was a confirmed wolverine in Colorado. There was the one that ended in the North Dakota of the ranch. He was, yeah, exactly, yeah, But you know, we've talked about before, but a wolf came out of the Michigan's Upper Peninsula got killed in Missouri, a known wolf, like an identified wolf. So things will pack up and leave. Absolutely, So is it possible that grizzlies are trickling them matriculating into Colorado. I think absolutely, very many, as far as you're right to know. Though Colorado has a lot of black bears runs the black bears so the fact that you know a grizzly bears out there, is that gonna change your behavior at all? No, I don't think it's gonna change your behavior. You always need to be be you know, well exactly. But I mean in terms you'll be carrying track and poles. You'll be tracking, yeah, carry good poking stick, a good poking stick. Um, you know bears. But I mean, like you, you know, I spent a lot of time around black bears and seeing a lot of really big black bears going their graves, and so I like to think that I've been around a lot of grizzlies in my guiding days in Alaska. So I like to think I'm a somewhat decent credible witness when I see these things. And then when I see a picture, and when Buddy shows me a picture of a bit bear, that you show me that picture yesterday pictures. But here's the thing, I didn't take the picture right and I can show use my phone right now, and I be like, look at alose Din. We had giant Lincoln in Colorado. What do we have. We're on stage coach yesterday. I've gotten this picture. But and and that's the you know, that's the tough thing about saying that you saw an animal like that in a state where they don't exist, you walk out on that limb and go on a live podcast and talk about it. So I've always sympathized with those guys, because oftentimes those guys are not being right. How many people said, how many people try to explain away every mountain lion in the eastern US as an escape pet. We're soon you have what must be like this very thriving industry of mountain lion owners that no one really knew about, who are habitually cutting loose their pets, drop off the park man and after a while people had to come to terms with it doesn't make sense, but some number of these things must be packing up camp in the Black Hills of South Dakota and deciding to go many hundreds of miles relatively undetected. So sure, man, and and I want to clarify, like my perspective on it. I like I want to like sort of like nuance out my position on it. I think that I take see it's so complicated, it's inexpressible by the English language. If someone right now said, hey, do you hear the news um, a car hit a grizzly in Colorado, I wouldn't even be a teensy bit surprised because from one of those things to travel two miles, I don't want them can turn up in Colorado wouldn't surprise me in the least. What I don't like, though, is the idea that there's that that there's this known breeding population that vested into that there's people with vested in rest and concealing the idea of this thing that it's like it's meant to be kept secret because in this day and age, like secrets don't get kept well. When they were down to having they were down to having only a handful of eat, like the Florida cougar, they were down to having a handful, but you couldn't keep from getting hit on the road. Like things just have a way of turning up. And this is like my one of many, but kind of my favorite anti bigfoot argument would be that if you look at the way rare species just get killed and turned up dead and get shot by people whose livestock is get attack, getting attacked, chasing their kids, they shoot it, it gets hit by cars, it just dies, It turns up dead. In the pond, whatever happens. It's like, even when we're down to like having some known quantity things, we can't stop them from dying all over the place. So that when people talk to these wildlife populations that there's no carcasses turning up anywhere. It becomes like hard to leave that the things that the necessary things are in place to do it. And the idea that oh they if they catch m Colorado, they bring them back to Whelming, how is that going over with the state government and Whelming those guys are doing their damn is to get rid of a handful of Callahan proposed the idea of an underground railroad for grizzly bears. Bears, take him, take him back. I do like there's plenty of unknown out there with tons of large mammals that we feel extremely familiar with. Like, look at all the new data that's showing up on mule be your migration corridors, Like like we just confirmed the longest mule be your migration And that's an animal that most people would consider themselves extremely familiar with, the root of which is now looking to perhaps get riddled with. Yeah, things that went then destroy that migration corridor. Um. But it to jump to the point is like, look at you know, all the data that we're getting off of these GPS collars. UM. A great one is Uh they had a colored sal grizz in Montana. Um. She covered an incredible amount of country and did some absolutely bizarre things including, Uh, Flathead Lake in Montana is a huge body of water. It's seven miles long, two and a half miles wide at its whitest point, and this grizz swam out to the dead center of the lake, turned around, swam back. Nobody ever saw this. I just wanted to see what was out there. No people, there's no eyewitness No, it was just tracking data. And you know, we never nobody would ever be like, oh, yeah, the grizz is just gonna swim out the middle of the night, in the middle of the lake, paddle around for a little bit. And then they do that all the time. So there is quite a bit unknown that I think does does go on? Yeah, and that's what makes it kind of beautiful. And like my goal, and we we've talked a thousand times too, my goal is to and most of the guys that hang out with agree with it would be like my goal be that we would recover grizzlies and all suitable habitat the agreement falls apart when we discuss like we'll define suitable. There's there's a lot of people who know this issue very well, and they say, like, we've kind of done it except for the exception of one spot, perhaps two, and they're not here. Nobody likes raccoons and their garbage cans in San Francisco. When it's a six pound raccoon, it's probably gonna be a bit more of an issue. Yeah, it's slightly unnerving and being with your kids, like, you know, every wants to get their kids involved in the auto doors, to be out with little kids in places that have like a like high densities of grizzlies, it's like this added thing. But you know what, in of Alaska, it's like they're dealing with it just fine. There's people up there, not many, but they're right there. So here's a startling grizzly statistic that, uh, the show is kind of the power of misguided humans. Um, let me find this. Between eighteen fifty and nineteen twenty, grizzlies were extirpated from ninety five of their historic range in the lower forty eight. Then from nineteen twenty to nineteen seventy they were extirpated from half of that. So you've got them whittled down to being on a couple percent a couple percentage points of their native range, right dance like we we had we did. We did a the same to Elk, and we've now recovered Elk on of their native range. We're still absent from nine of their native range, and we're still trying to make progress in that. And I just cannot as much to understand the complexities, the political aspects of it, what it means for the egg industry, everyone, As much as I see that, I'm like, I can't. I just can't accept that's something that as human beings in America that we can be okay with having something like that on the edge. So I just, you know, I'm not saying here, but if I did hear that someone turned one up in a definite sense, I wouldn't get that feeling like, oh no, I'd kind of like almost a little bit secretly be like it's like bringing wild back. It's like going to buy some chalks up head Knock and Yellowstone kind of like didn the lady just get that's the most common yellow stone injury. I think the lady just got gored today. Yesterday yellows when I was reacharch in my buffalo. Look it was talking about um a very common, a very common animal related injury. There would be a puncture wound to the upper buttocks. Yeah. States, So speaking, going back to grizzly bearris and populations, which states now have u and restoration that species? Which states now do we now have grizzly bear hunts coming on board here? Well? Possibly too, Possibly two states will initiate grizzly hunts. Possibly, you know, I say possibly because who knows where litigation is. Co might do a tag and what only might do up to a couple of dozen with female quotas built into it. And then they have they we've identified like recovery areas. So when we talk about like if we say that we should recover them when all suitable habitat um, there's this there's this idea of what those student habitats are. Northern cascades. So in in northern Washington you have the own a cascade ecosystem. And Secretary Zinkie recently came out and declared his support for recovering bears in Northern Cascades right now, in the Northern Cascades in the US, there maybe maybe is one or two grizzlies there right now. They flirt with the border. Cavney Yak has fifty yep. Sell Kirk's eight. Sel Kirk's have eight. Northern Continental Divide Northern Continental Divide has over a thousand Greater Yellsone ecosystem has eight hundred, possibly proceeding more. In all these places. Because of how econom it's usually the number is usually the minimum, the upper end of the population, we don't really know. And then there's the one spot that we say we could get them or could have them and don't. And that's the bit route. Well, the Yak as well, I mean the Yak Cabney Yak Wilderness is I believe the least visited wilderness area in the lower forty eight uh rust to hunt black bears in Man, you'd like stumble into grizzlies and it's only fifty of them. Yeah, So I mean we've recorded fifty bears there or is that an ext We've recorded x amount and extrapolated that out to fifty. It's extrapolated out because what people are Jerry looking at is you're looking at female home ranges and then you kind of like, based off session mature females how much area they need, you make these like these basic map shapes where you put in like known females, what would their range be, And then just from general dynamics, you understand the ratio of cubs and males and you model it out. It's not like someone goes on goes one too, it gets the fifty when people have a birthday. My kids like to go, are you on? Are you too? And they called my older brother man, they get old by the time they got up to the right number. But yeah, they don't like they're not counting them. But and you get into that area. And this is like the last thing to say about with this idea of like because like right now there's a lot of talk where people in Colorado are toy with idea like do we want to reintroduce wolves or let them trickle in because there's different sort of like social tolerances right to reintroduction and trickling in. And for a while people talked about that will take grizzlies and cut grizzlies loosen the bitter root. If we take them and reintroducement to the bit, they're gonna have an experimental status so not regulated as tightly because they were a reintroduction, and some grizzly advocates feel that it's better, Well, let's just let them walk in on their own, which is eventually gonna happen anyway, because if they walk in on their own, they carry with them full e es a protection. We had the idea, we're just gonna make a barrel trap and puts them in there, just to get the whole thing over with, right. Uh, never got around to that, but it was like an idea we toyed with was let's just push this along and get it to his logical conclusion. But um, it's it's like a thing that you guys wrestled with. And someone said today that they're like a government agent was saying, he's highly what was he saying, he doesn't think that Colorado will do a wolf for introduction, right? Right? And I don't want to say who said this, Well he said parts and wildlife is off. But that's parts and wildlife. That's not the people who are actively trying to move towards reintroduction, he said. He said, Carl our Colorado parks and wildlife. They show up on their own, They're welcome here. Yeah, what's your taked? Yeah? But what did the guy say to you recently? If you're a big game hunter? How can you be if you're why be pro predator at all? Because the more you know, the less predators, the more big game we have to hunt as big game hunters. What's your take? Hey, you know, it's a it's a tough one. It's you know, I'm kind of a I'm gonna take the easier rout being in between her here. But I love having apex predators on one In one sense, it's these big wild animals that are back in wild country. That's there's nothing more beautiful that you can think of. On the other hand, you think of the state of our current mule your population in Colorado, and you think of our elk population. We're always a winter or two away from major winterkill. What happens if we have a huge population apex better population explosion? You know, a couple of big wolf packs step into your favorite elk hunting unit, and then you have a winter kill on top of that then than what than what's going on? Then all of a sudden we have a big problem. So um, you know, from a few different perspectives, not a problem for the wolves, not a problem for the wolves. I mean, Colorado was a if you look at yeah, if you look at what we've got going on here in Colorado, I mean this is the ideal target for wolves and in grizzlies. I mean we're covered up with animals. Were pretty special state. So selfishly, I I agree with that. You know, I don't want these animals killing my dear and elk and wiping out my herds. And maybe there's a little ignorance in that statement. But on the other hand, you know, I love wild these wild places and wild things, so you know, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. Yeah, I remember when elk, when when wolves came into the areas that we hunt elk after like what happened very quickly after the Yellowstone re introductions. I remember a guy that we would bump into in our elk hunting area. He would be he would kind of like get worked up about it, but he'd be like, you know, you gotta share though, gotta share, gotta share, like walking them through. But the thing that I come back to me and it's like you look into sort of like you try to try to like look into your own heart. And I remember the first wolf track I saw a man, I was ecstatic, not for what it meant, not like what is it gonna be down the road for tag allocations, and but just in the immediate moment, right in the immediate moment, there's sort of this really satisfying like holy ship. That was the moment I had last year. And when I take people to hunt in Alaska, always the thing that they always say, always I hope we see or a it's just like always exactly And that's what's so funny. People travel to Alaska going to jacks and going to the park as in Frank Church Wilderness, Uh with the buddy mine is working in there, the big outfit there's uh, he was pretty fun. We're in this pup tent at the end, there's like the big wall tent, nice wall tan, cooked tent. There's a nice wall tan for the clients, another nice wall tan for the clients. And then it's like you guide bums figure it out, and uh that remudas out there. Uh you know, kraal full hot fence of mules and horses, and they're kind of talkative all night and they're pawing the ground, frozen ground. You know, it's really loud, and uh it's a full moon, just like you know you're in a glowing tent in a full moon and can't sleep. And uh, first wolf, How I ever heard wolf cuts loose and everybody goes dead silent, And I would easily trade a freezer full elk meat for that moment, you know, I mean, that was a special, special moment. Another thing I returned when I think about this, and I feel that's the point I brought up before, is why, like the guys that are just dead set anti predator across the board, why do those guys all want to hunt and lask it's a bad You wouldn't like it at all. There's big stuff run around, all toothy, crazy stuff running around everywhere. But I think that people would answer, is there Alaska guards very jealously, jealously it's right to do predator management. So they've got a nice balance. And I think that some people fear, probably quite rightfully, so, some people fear that if if wolves get very like heavily established in Colorado, if you know, in in a decade we're talking about grizzlies being like absolutely established in Colorado, that there's the idea that that like politically and socially, the state Fish and Game Agency isn't gonna have any latitude to do management to to like factor in various stakeholders in the conversation. I think if people, if people knew that this will happen, these animals will come. When they come, we will have management authority and we will manage with deer hunters, elk hunters, all people in mind, and find like a good balance. I think that people's tensions wouldn't be as high. I mean, all they gotta do is look to Montana, right, I mean, as as has it been a doomsday scenario up there for you hunting el not at all. And they got they got. I mean they found as much as it was gonna be that Montana having a wolf season was gonna be the end of wolves, they found it ain't that easy. Wolves do? They got smart? Yeah, I mean I don't know what you're still finding out, Yeah, plenty, I've got as good at elk hunting up there as I did in Colorado, and there's this beautiful time in there where people are so used to blaming wolves that they actually ceased to hunt. And if you're out there hunting, it is like the best elk hunting on the planet. And all you have to do is be like, oh, yeah, it's full of wolves. Oh. I've run into guys who were like in their truck and had given up because they caught the wolf track. You know what, that guy would have given up no matter what, you give up to his wife's man give up. It's like Psalm's gonna make him give up. Uh dame, We else have anything on the wolves or grizzlies. Yeah, you saw a grizzly in Colorado. They are they're all named old something. Can you name them, Cody? Oh, man, we'll call this one the old New Hanski, the old lou john Ski. So oh, keep it in the family. Name you name them after yourself. No, I'm just trying to there's enough. What are you going to name it? It's something like that, a ghost grizzly, and you know it's an old ghost grizzly, except this one wasn't old. C uh CPW Colorado, Parks and Wildlife. They do have a form, right if you look at it, Grizzly sighting for they have a grizzly sighting form, which like if you got this, they don't have a big foot sighting form? Do they bigfoots blurry? Right? Yeah, that wasn't blurry. So there's like they got a form. Man, there's a reason that people make forms. So if you guys out there see one, go fill out the form. And he said that the award, and we talked today said he wasn't comfortable with the idea that they investigate possible sightings, but they he used, like at it, they'll look into it. What did he use look into it? Yeah, he didn't want to say like quite like I wouldn't say we investigate, we look into it, don't worry about it, checks in the mail, We'll think about it. So does that now? Another to Colorado News piece that I want to get into. Can you can you lay out the Gore Range? I think he spent so much time. Wow, I can do it, but you honest is like the Gore Range expert here. I did a little bit of hunting in there, but a lot of you guys probably I'm sure some of you've been up there. There is the Gore Range that runs from Veil north towards Steamboat. There's a Gore Pass which goes between Breckon Ridge and Bail. There's Gore Creek that runs from Bail down into the Eagle River. There's Gore Canyon on the Colorado River near Kremling. Did I say Gore Pass Pass actually to Ponis Kremlin. And there's this gentleman, British gentleman that's spent a lot of time. You should talk about rampage in my notes. The top of my notes is Gore is what you might call an asshole. How many people here know like the Gore? Like Gore has everything named him? You guys know who Gore was? The story of Gore? So so uh, this is something we've discussed in the past. Was like Laramie, So Larrmy has got how myself named after him? Larrmy shows up, he's like kind of a mountain man. No one knows aiding a bottom is that his name Laramie? And the minute he showed up, well was killed and stuffed through the whole in a frozen beaver pond. The dude winds up a half to stay named after him. Okay, so Gore, here's Gore. So Gore is a he's an Irish lord, so he's the aristocracy. Comes west in the eighteen fifties to go on a little hunting trip. Now, an interesting fact about this is Gore faired He's gonna come up through New Orleans and come up the Mississippi and then go up the Missouri. But he gets word from a Mormon missionary in London to avoid New Orleans due to a cholera and malaria outbreak, lands in New York. Instead. He is packing with him seventy rifles, a dozen shotguns, a brass bed, a steel bathtub featuring his personal crest. He travels with his own personal fly higher. It takes dozens of carts and wagons the haul Gore's hunting equipment. He makes his way out to the Platte River, where he hires Jim Bridger, famed mountain man Jim Bridger to be his hunting guide. And they set to killing, and they kill him for two years. Uh. They hunt the Arkansas, they hunt the South Platte. They get up to Montana. They hunt the Tongue, the Powder, they hunt the Yellowstone. Gore likes to sleep till ten. They likes to get up and hunt until after dark. By his own calculations, he kills two thousand, five hundred buffalo, which he leaves the rot one d five bears, perhaps forty of which were grizzlies. He kills one thousand, six hundred deer in Elk. Indians are going to their Indian agents to complain about this particular individuals waste of resources. Even Jim Bridger gets sick of him. Eventually everyone's mad the guy. His trips coming to an end. He goes down to Fort Union on the Missouri and he wants to sell his gear to the James Kipp who ran the fort there. James Kip gives him what he perceives to be a shitty offer. Now, a lot of guys, Mike Brody's been in the guiding business. How many you guys have all guided everyone? Here's guided rich clients give you stuff? Am I not? Is this right? Like? Oh, here's my binocular? Sonny? I mean, doesn't this happen? Real hired to convert that into gasoline? I have found. But it's a thing, right, It's a thing that happens. You give your guide stuff not Gore. Gore is offended by the offer, and at Fort Union he and this is witnessed by a many. He starts a giant pyre and burns every single thing that he had brought with him out of spite. He burns Conostoga wagons, he burns freight wagons, He burns red river carts. He burns a silk tent. He burns all of his carpets. He burns his down filled pillows. He had brought over an Indian rubber rubber raft that no one had ever seen. He throws that on the fire and burns it. He burns his meteorological equipment. He burns his entire personal library. Bridger later in his life talked about Gore, and the part of the story of the interested Bridger was that Gore introduced him to Shakespeare. Gore would read Bridge or Shakespeare at night, but he burns all to his Shakespeare text. He had kept meticulous journals through his whole journey. He burns his journals, hands Jim Bridger fifty bucks and leaves only with his hunting trophies. Then he winds up with a mountain range, a mountain pass, a canyon, lake, Creek and wilderness area that he never stepped and named after him. Yep, which violates even the government's idea like explain like what it is that you're supposed to do? Oh, you you you can you can do that better than me, Like like like you have to have you have to be an American citizen first, right, Um, you go discover, you go explore something, you map it out meaningful, you give people useful information that are going to be there at some point in the future. And someone says, hey, that guy did a good job, let's name that mountain after him. But gorgeous gets out of sheer inertia. Right, But there's a petition that Brody was talking about. No, this is your your area of expertise. Yeah, so this is the day and age where we're kind of conscious of our history and mistakes we've made in the past and names that shouldn't have been named. And so there's a movement to rename the wipe Gore's name off the face of Colorado's mountain sides. And uh, I'm not sure how much traction it's gaining. But you can sign the petition. You can sign the petition. Yeah, yeah, And I believe what they want. It's the Shining Mountains is what they would like the Ute to name them. But a name that's been proposed is the general term for the Rockies, which would have been the Shining Mountains. The level the left a lot of time in there. A couple more quick facts about Gore. It was the most expensive expensive hunting expedition ever mounted at the time, and Gore never cocked his own rifle, so I'd be like, cal cock my rifle now I'm gonna shoot, you know, uh, read about his thing. It's reminisce so like Gore like winds up being a villain right like we now perceive, and oftentimes like I'm the guy. I'm the kind of guy that oftentimes when I hear like we're gonna read aim something because of our contemporary perspective, oftentimes I get a little uncomfortable feeling because I don't think it always works to take a contemporary notion of morality and like a a like a sophisticated progressive sense of morality and apply it to people two years ago who probably in their own time were progressive. But if but they but it will never keep up, like you're always gonna find something So the more you go back and analyze, you're you're looking at people who further times were like outstanding, like regardless outstanding individuals with really sophisticated thoughts about human rights and sophisticated thoughts about what we ought to be doing and how we ought to be as a nation and what our aspirations and goals should be. But there's this blemish, and we we we fixate on the blemish, and it kinds of makes me uncomfortable more in his own time, was hated, was hated. But maybe you don't. Maybe maybe you leave that name there to just remind you, hey, man, don't do that, you know, Well, that's what I'm thinking, Like Colorado school kid, what an amazing lesson? You're like, Oh, Gore a peak. I wonder how that guy named gonna look this guy up? I mean, can you learn about like the rapacious quality of man? Yes, otherwise it's like that's gonna stick with you. The Shining Mountains is a great name. But then no school could ever learns about Gore because it's wiped off the face of the map, right, So I don't know, Yeah, like maybe there should be one of those interpretive highway signs that just says like, hey, an asshole on it here. Yeah. I don't know, man. Do you think there are people at the time being like, boy, that's terrible, but he's creating a lot of jobs. That's good. That's good. Uh. Yeah, I don't know, man, I don't know about Because here's the thing. We all love Roosevelt, right, and if you want to go find if you want to find a guy that was up to that, go read a little bit about Roosevelt's when he got out of office and he did his big African safari. No difference, no difference, but he right, Oh, that was just how they did things back then, because he wanted up doing some good turns. So even our interpretation of morality is sort of like the influenced bollies are things where we're you know, like his Africa trip. When anyone, anyone that describes his average trip, they can't. Any writer that talks about it can't help having the giant list of all the crazy stuff he packed, quite similar to the list I gave a minute ago. But he's our great hero. So I don't know. The package for River of Doubt. Yeah extensive, O my god, I mean you could almost calm Gore with a conscious right, like he came around at the end, you believe. So he died single. I don't know. I mean, well, he did a lot for us, right conservation wise. Okay, so let's say this. You're a single reference Thereah, cow died single? Oh, just point out. I don't know. I think that, like one history of Gore that I read, the writer took some level of satisfaction in the fact that he died alone. Maybe I don't know if he was like he might have been, but you know what, in the end, he died alone, so he must have had a good life. You know. I don't know. I'm just like the writer took says it wasn't meant as a dig I was just wondering. Um, okay, so let me say this. You are, You are commander of the universe, and on your daily docket of decisions is hey, should we change the Gore arranged to the Shining Mountains? And just gotta you know, you got so much to do that day. You gotta make a snap decision. And you know right now they're making the new signs. Do you do it or not? Oh man? Before we had this conversation, I was all for change, and you know, but now I'm rethinking it. Um. I can't tell you how many times I heard you want to say I was back in the Gore. Yeah, back in the Shining Mountains. That sounds good, they does. But there's nothing wrong with the Gore either. But when you know the history of it, it kind of stinks. Right. But now I'm conflicted because I'm wondering if we should be changing those little blemishes or do we leave them just to reminders. In my mind, there's a gap here. The gap being why did they name it after him? We know it's named after him, but I guess maybe I'm missing something here, But I don't know why they named it. Was it because he came and did all these amazing expeditions and created a name for himself, or because he was in There's for how it started to happen. But it's not satisfactory. It wasn't them being like, man that was a good guy, he was cool. It wasn't like that. It was just their naming a lot of things at the time, right, So he came along at the right time, was kind of notorious, and they said, you're the man rolls off your tongue the morning I was for changing now here. I am Master of the Universe, was the title commander of these of the universe. Keep it, that's my official make the sign, keep it. I'm with you like it's it's where, it's what it is. You know, you can't erase history by changing the name, and you shouldn't want to write she shouldn't try and cover it up. I don't know, man, callam learning opportunity. This is similar the issues that are going on in New Mexico with regard to monuments that were named after famous Spanish conquisadors that horrible atrocities against Native Americans and Pueblans, and um, you know, do you keep these because that was an important part of history or do you change them because this guy was such an ass and did so many bad things and so many were just tools and the tool kit. Yeah you know, so so yeah, I mean, do you know these issues are being looked at all over the place right now? I say change it, change it. Hell yeah, I've called it to go over my entire life. Commander command of Commander Cody hot Rod Lincoln. He opened up for stepping wolf. Yeah right, Uh can we are we ready to move on. There'ld be cool, cool, no one, no one anything more. You know you're good. I'm good. Okay, Now what's going on? It's checking that time? Are you doing good? Do you think it's immoral? Do you think it's immoral or or what's the opposite, immortal? Is it immoral? Or okay? Two? Shoot a bedded deer? I'll go with okay, okay. Can you give me a thinking and why it's okay? Um? I think I just lay out why some people would say maybe it's not okay. First, right, you want to agree that we agree that would be a fine approach. You're gonna say it's okay and tell us why it's not or why some my view it is not yeah, because I think if you don't have the context of that, then why you even have this conversation. But I think that well, there's two reasons I think a lot of people say it's not okay, she did better deer or whatever big game animal. One being that you're not seeing like the body sort of stretched out and you're not able to identify exactly where the vitals are and where exactly should place your bullet or arrow right. The other one being that somehow you caught an animal sleeping or off guard, and that um, you're at such an advantage that you should feel I guess morally bad about it. And then you should like give the animal pass because it's taken a break. Yes, that's money. That's the main two reasons why people are sort of not not like I want to see that as a sportsmanship thing, like you're not supposed to shoot a duck off the water, right some somewhere in there. Yeah, we've all decided that's okay. So I I say it's okay because, um one, I feel like if you know and and the anatomy enough and if you have a like a rifle or whatever weapon with enough pour that you know that the vitals, that you can still place that bullet right where it needs to go, even when it's you know, crowded up in bedded and as far as like given it a past because you caught it sleep. And you should be considered like an excellent hunter because you snuck up to a bedded animal because everybody knows it's like okay. Every now and then, sure you catch one that's actually asleep, but more likely when they're betted, they're still aware, or or the one next to him is aware. Nobody's actually completely asleep on the job, right. It's not he caught like the platoon sleeping. He's stuck in there and got the jump on everybody. So I think when you sneak into you sneak into a bunch of bedded deer or or just one, you should be considered an exceptional hunter with exceptional skills and not not be not be said that somehow you got over all one. I feel I feel you on that. And remember we met a guy that was kind of the opposite where his wife didn't want to eat meat from animals that looked at him, right, I do remember that. She's like she like, did it look at you know? Okay? Right, So it didn't matter if it was better or not. No, that was her thing. It became. It became rather than saying like, oh, no, you snuck up on this thing and it's better down. Her thing would be like just from looking at it like a sort of outsider perspectively, like once it's aware of you and staring at you, you've kind of like lost like something went wrong there and and and it wasn't like you you know, you've said that before though, like you prefer to shoot animals that have no idea your way prefer it. Like when I'm like, it's in everybody's story, you had no idea. It's like people love that part of the story. Yeah, man, not aware that I was there. I'm gonna start whistling first, just to let him know, get him to stand up. Well, you know, like Kevin Murphy blows the horn right when he starts before he started on the guy that rode in about about this. Do you want to know? I hesitated at first, even shared his detail his dad was so opposed to shooting do you know what I'm talking about? His father is so opposed to shooting a bedded deer that his father once found a wounded deer that had been hit by a car, and he had kind of watched it around their property. He kept trying to catch it on his feet, but it had always cut through their property and lay down, so it's already wounded. He's basically trying to put it down but also be able to eat it for it goes bad. He goes and gets a red Rider BB gun to shoot the deer to get it to stand up, to then shoot it with a muzzleloader. This guy writes in a letter explained is the same. What's your take on it? Wow? Give it a fighting chance? He just give it a fighting chance. Yeah. I hunting with you. Yeah, we you know, we ran into that scenario in New Mexico on a problem r hunt. Crawled up on an animal, open shot in the bed, and all kinds of ship about it. Yeah. Prior to that, I mean, it was actually a pretty cool stock. It was really open country and we had to herd of cattle just come blasting through and it was provided the only bit of cover for the first part of the stock. And then you went in belly crawled and finish This amazing stock got into out in the middle of I mean, there's a grasp about this tall and then you get as cut it rashing and ship. Yeah, crawling around the hot ass sun was dragging my rifle behind me. Cat the storms all up and down and it was like you weren't mainly because it was laying down. It's like, come on, man, So so what does your take would you take? Is? Uh? I have taking animals and some of the best stocks in my life have been totally creeping up on an animal and killing its bed On the flip side of that, I have had animals lost with me um by somebody shooting an animal and uh not hitting the animal right when it was bedded, because I have had to happen, and just this past year I had that happen. It costs a family member of mind, a bowl and so on, embedded on embedded bull elk. So it happens. So if you know what you're doing and you feel confident with it, and you are going to own your shot and you've completed that stock, I think you go for it. If you're not confident with it, the animals not laid just right, don't take the shot. Yeah, it's so hard, and I always have a hard time with folks who are like, absolutely, this is the only way you can do it, because honey is just not that way. That's why I love it. It's got no end to the variables. Right, there's animals, and animal does what it wants and the conditions are unknown. So uh, my general rule of thumb is no, do not client though it compresses commander of the universe, compresses the area, um you have more, you're I feel like your odds increase of destroying good meat and patience kills man. Just wait for that thing, stand up, put it through both lungs. Minimal meat loss done to you. Now that being said, you know you can very very well find that scenario where everything is perfect, animals better and you have just that beautiful window through the vitals and and it's great. But yeah, generally I say, do not shoot. Wait are you coming from the client perspective? What you're telling clients? Are you individually here? I typically hold off myself. Yeah, what about a client of time? No Brody. Well, before Calihan spoke up, I was gonna say, I prefer to shoot everyone betted. But the only shot I'll take you, I had to wait a while for it to bed down. Now I gotta think about it. I mean I have shot, you know. I shot a bullout at less than twenty yards with the rifle bedded down, and he was just as surprised as I was when I um. But now cows like got me off feeling guilty about it. So you're on your personal journey. You know when people say like two people like go yeah or no, when they just measure the volume. When you're doing like an audience survey, I don't want to do or measuring the volume. I just want for when I put this to the audience test, I just want you to say, yep, like that loud not all kinds of screaming is a nice yep? Uh would you change? Uh? Okay? All those in favor of switching the Gore Range to the Shining Mountain Range say yep. Alls in favor of it keeping its name, huh. Alls that think it's okay to shoot a deer say in its bed say yo. Yeah, they progressively got louder. You know, I don't know about ship Okay. So we have at at you know, at the Mediator podcast, we have a man who's kind of emerged as as what I like to call our philosopher and residence. Where does this guy, this dude Luke Ryan, who happens to be with us here tonight, who uh what sends in all these kind of like really perplexing hunting questions, ethics questions enough to where like I started taking notice of this fellow that he, uh, he really knows how to get in there and grapple with some of the hunting conundrums. And like said, he's an intendis night and he had this question which interesting ideas like what winds up being your shot to kill ratio in big game hunting, pointing out that a wonder one ratio meaning you know, every you you you kill an animal with every shot you fire, might not be the most ethical ratio because in some things that might be that the minute you if if you hit an animal for purposes of having a quick, humane kill, you might quickly follow it up with a second shot in order to ensure that it's gonna like die really quickly. So bragging a one to one might not be as good as if you had like a higher ratio, because you just want to shure to like put him on the ground quickly and efficiently in the case of hunting something like moose or elk. So what is your shot to kill shots fired two animals killed ratio? Uh one point three one point three But lifetime no, I just I just running through in my I just like ransom calculations from like a year from the last year, because I mean, I haven't like, I haven't like kept that, I haven't like tracked the data. But I'll point out the last year big game hunting, the only time I shot twice, the first one would have been fine. That just happened to shoot twice. I mean it's like a fog nack, like a shot and you'll make fun. Oh no, you're right. Yeah, so like one point seven or whatever, one point four? Yeah, no, you're right. Yeah, I bet you everyone that they think about it, the number will grow. Okay, let me let me put it. Let me put this way, let me put it in a more conservative way. It's not too it's not big game only or is it we counting a small game to you know, you're not countently hunting ducks. No, there's more real quick okay, quickly to give us the last part. Yeah, I got you staying. If you miss, you gotta count it. Yeah, but I don't have that problem. Oh yeah, it would be like not to not to you guys running very high right now. Yeah, you're honestly had some Western hunts. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Um three on my coups to each on my last two animals. Last cow was to last five squirrels with three apiece. Yeah yeah, I don't know. So yeah, what does that give me? Yeah, I'll just go with Colorado last year one on my muley Buck one on my prompt because you missed your MULEI buck before that, my gun didn't fire. What does that? Yeah, I pulled a trigger and I didn't even get a click or anything. Does that count? Doesn't count? That doesn't count. And then too, on my bowl, I pulled that, I shot him and he didn't move, so I immediately shot him again and just to be sure, and walked up there and two two vital shots. So four shots, three animals. Now let's hear Cal's amazingly known Kel's point seven five like amazingly low number. Yeah, this is good. This is humbling bowl one mule deer, one bowl negative four? What does that mean? I at the time, I was like, I am inexplicably missing. Now that's not true. The fact of the matter is is I have, quite ignorantly, I have just not been shooting as much as I used to, and I had my rightful skills have clearly fallen off the map. So I did. Uh. I went back home to Montana on our real misery hunt and found another nice bowl in there and missed. I missed three times, now four times? Missed three times? Okay at sub two yards? Kelly, yeah, are you hearing you? All the scenarios but that's not the question. I can give you a full meal deal. But I missed three times under two hundred yards, okay, And I had a here is the bull because it was so confused that it ran directly at me. And now it's at four years and I'm like, well, now only a jackass would miss and I had the safety on and did uh, how about I not heard the story? It was it well, it's yeah, it's not a good story. And it got away. It's just it got away gone. I mean, it was the full day I told you about that hunt. It was like thirty winds the whole time, this hell hole and the driving snow, and I had all the time in the world, had my pack down and like two ft of snow, so I was basically like sitting on a couch, had dead fall in front of me and had a perfect rest. And I was like, just take your time, just take your time, just take your time, and one of those yeah, and I did, And I missed over a course of period of time. Yeah, yeah, good question, Brady, hold on. But then was off right? No, it wasn't, no, no, no, this was off So you lost. I got lost in the numbers somewhere. So you're running a plus two absolutely six an arrow bull, one bullet for the mule. There three misses on another bowl, which I didn't feel bad. Two animals, seven shot. Divide this into this and yeah she did like three point three yeah. Uh cow, moose, one shot, mule, deer buck one shot, cow out three shots. They all hit her, but it was three shots too to end it at the end. That's it for last. But I feel like you year is such a small sample size too, Okay, can we move on? Yeah? If you do, you're salad with sub tube comfortable. I think there's years eyes probably more in cow's range. Thanks Luke. This guy starts out by saying I have absolutely zero access to grind, so I'm gonna tell me more. Um. He goes on to ask this, Uh, he's going out west. He's from Georgia, going out west on his first big time wild West hunting trip, which he says he does not want it to get squirrely. Um, what is a specific prong hornet? He's going on an antelope punt, prong horn, analop punt. He's like he wants a little specific piece of prong horn anlope hunting gear, not like just general universal gear, but antelope gear. Kneepads take one, everybody gets to pick one. I'm doing knee pads analope specific. Yeah, I like it, construction kneepads. Um, since I saw you do this, I'm gonna go with bipod. Oh yeah, we'll play, we'll play. Yeah, I'm gonna go with optics. You know, universal gear. You're talking specific normal general gear. I feel like bipods specific enough, specific enough. I accept that answer. So I go like apare twelve or fift twelve power binos. There we go, twelve power binders, sunscreen. I was gonna say, like a buff but sunscreen kind of thirteen bullets. I don't know. I'll add another one man and we've done this. Uh is a white handkerchief. It's kind of amazing just for flagging, just doing this. You want to see him go, and they'll oftentimes be like, huh is that legal everywhere? If it's legally illegal, how could it be ill? I can't picture being illegal to be like, to be like, dude, I just was getting my hanky out. I was just giving him my head like a safety aspect. There's something white moving number Oh shoot a shot, Steve Rinella, we got time for a couple more. We gotta call it more. We got it also got to our closers. Here's a quick question. But I don't think you guys are gonna have any perspective on this question. A guy writes in and he says, I guess this isn't keeping with your having eaten coyotes. Have you any advice or experience with the common carp? There is a lot of meat on those puppies, Um I have like we've cooked and eating common carp. I've smoked him, ground him up for patties. It's uh, it winds up being that like it's absolutely edible. A lot of people from a lot of cultures raise them for the purpose and he's talking about common like, you know your Asian carp raised them for the European cart, raising for the purpose of food. You're fine, it's edible all that, But after when I eat them, I don't come away from it being like man, I cannot wait to go get another cart. And so that's like to me, that's this whole classification of wild game. It's like I ate it didn't hurt um not dying to do it. Again, and I put common carp in that category. Any experience. If you have no experience, can you do me a favor? Try it? Can you? Um? No? No? Not that. Can you tell me what sort of like the latest wild game dish you've been onto that you're like, this is what people ought to be cooking that they might not be aware of your No, they could be aware of it, but it's like what you're on because you made me a very good moose heart taco two nights ago. Yeah, can that be my answer? That could be your thing? Lay it out? Okay? Um? Yeah, I did a moose heart moose heart and an elkhart. We really didn't need both, but um kind of carved him up, got him down and nothing but meat. You know, there's a lot of connective tissue and silver skin on hearts. As you trimmed all that off, we do not had to, you know, make dinner for the boss. So um. But yeah, when once you get that stuff off of there, the gristle and veins and fat and silver skin, it's like very dense kind of soft meat. And I just cut it in strips, marinated it in uh olive oil, lime juice, carne asadas, seasoning, grilled it. Rare threw it on some tacos with all kinds of top. Yeah, like charge some peppers and onions on the grill to go on it. Some case so fresco. I think that was about it. Herbs, yeah, cilantro. Yeah, it's just like a fresh summer meat. Yeah. Well, I was so worried about overcooking it that some of it was definitely undercooked. But I'd rather go that direction than overcooked like this in your mouth. But my kids ate it, which I you know, and you guys didn't hear any grumlins. So I love mine here today. But a moose hearts like a guy actually, Like I posted a picture of the elkhart and the moose heart. He's like, you should have posted a picture of a deer heart for US Eastern guys for size perspective, and I said, I replied to him, I said, fist to fist child's head like kind of the perspective. I want to back up on cart real quickly. At one time, did it a scopier recipe with carp where you cut the carp's head and tail off, then you de bone and you flay it like de bone all the meat, and you grind the meat up and mix it with butter and bread crumbs and all kinds of all the good things to eat. And you reform the carp's body out of this stick the head and tail back onto it like scales with truffles. It's like food taxider. You rescale the carp with sliced truffles and eat it. That is good, carp. It sounds like, can you make that next time? We? Can you make that next time we go cart fishing? I could do it again. I could do it. It It takes like about three days budget um, carp. I feel like anything when the water is super cold is edible. And it's a flawed theory. Uh. And then you know, summertime, carp there in to me like boiling hot water out there in the back bays, and and that just does not seem palatable in any way, shape or form. But you know, I was in Panama over the winter that waters always warm. Those fish tastes great. Yeah, that's a good point, but people do have that they're good in the winter. I grew up here in that about suckers. But I'm and uh one kind of fun fish thing. You know, MA always try one extra thing. I had a uh brown trout ate a streamer a little too deep and kept the brown trout that had not I only say that because I just hadn't intended to have trout that night. Kind of rearrange the menu and did the trout on blue blue. Yeah, So if you don't know what this is, it's it's basically it takes some aromatics and uh white vinegar and water. Get that too, a high sizzle and just slide the trout in there. Well, when I gutted this brown trout, it had a liver that was like this big. I mean it was like two big thumbs doubled up. And I threw that liver in there and it was not to be missed. It was fantastic in the old days. And they made true doll blue or blue trout. I'm saying it's horribly and uh it was. It was essential that you put a live trout because it's skins would turn to extra vibrant blue. But that just doesn't feel quite right. And guts in obviously, Yeah, you get the vinegar broth because what it is is like the skin turns blue for some reason I'll never understand. Um, But if you wanted to be really blue, you put it. You slip live trout into the boiling elixir, which just one of those It's like gore. Right, there's just some things. There's just some things we don't do anymore. Kids. Oh man, no carp My last name is lu Han, so clearly tacos are pretty big in my household. So I love a red chili taco and just a really good um some of the prime cuts from either pronghorn or elk and uh some good ground red chili from northern New Mexico, and uh some flour and you get the mixture right in your pot, and then you dump in your meat and you cook a little sole on the side and which is like hominy almost, and you mix those up and you have a big, hardy stew, probably the best, my favorite meal. And you can probably put a house cat near it would taste good, right, And I said, you up, man, If you get that red chili, if you get that, if you get your if you get everything mixed up just right, you can throw a carp in there and it taste a carbon carp tacas. But I've had that, and it wasn't until I met you that I knew that there was like a tar or tear war. What's that word in wine tear war? I don't know, say to it? Yeah, like uh, meaning that that each like each place sort of has its own thing that that it imbibes in the flavor, right, and it's like a one thing that like this hill, the South Hill has an extra quality that you don't get when we grow greats on the North pie. Like your head, you were like being into what valley chili's come from? Yeah, the Hatch Valley obviously everybody knows Hatch chili, but a lot of volcanic soil. And then for the green chili, and then northern New Mexico, the Espanola Valley is my family's preferred red chili, which is green chili that's dried, crushed, you know, ground and um. And then each It's interesting, each of the pueblos in New Mexico also take prior to our our chill. Our green chili is better than the next door poeblo screen chili. So everybody's kind of got their own strains and different ways of preparing it. Yeah, and you integrate that int your world game, and you I integrate a lot of green Chilian red chili in my into our wild game cuisine. My my wife does as well. So you carps have served you carb? Yeah it was good? You liked it? Was that able? The what I did like from that same we're talking about Wisconsin, right, Yeah, well was good. I remember those the ribs that we had off those but they were off the carp. I think that was a buff a little sucker that's a native fish. Yeah, but those rails were good. Yeah, like really like meaty good ribs off of a fish. Yeah, like the rib the rib cage. Man, like you cook the rib cage off a buffalo socker, which is like a cart but it's a native fish, not a non native fish. They used to be a commercial market for him in the old days. Just fry that rib cage, thrilled them with ramps, which you probably have new your house. Either. Are they like quarter inch maybe not quite? They're like that thick? No there you going the bone itself or them with the meat the the meat Oh yeah then a solid maybe even three eights. So what what do you? What are you hot on right now? Put? Am I hot on? Turkey, liver, pat day meat, butter as as a bunch of people on Instagram described it, which I never called that growing up, but yeah, I took a turkey liver and ah, I didn't mean to, but I ended up basically sulking in water for about a week. It's because I didn't have time and I was almost getting ready to pitch it, I'll be honest, because like, yeah, I don't know if it's still gonna be good, but it smells fine, So I went ahead and did it and quick recipe. Um, so I recommend anybody tries it because it literally took thirty minutes to not even thirty minutes by fifteen minutes to make, and then maybe an hour to let us set up in the fridge, but just so good a week. Yeah, so in a week you probably get away with just printing it, but trimming up, chopping up a little bit. And I was surprised because it was a chicken liver recipe that I used and they called for a half a pound. I was like, oh, man, like, how am I ever gonna come up with a half pound of liver? Right? But the turkey's liver actually ended up being a quarter pound. A turkey's liver is a quarter pound. Yeah, so I just had to have the recipe. I was surprised. Yeah, big liver, and so chopped it up, and then uh, in a with I think like a couple of water, you put that in there, one bay leaf, a couple of peppercorns, one clove of a crushed garlic, and like a half a teaspoon of fresh time. I believe, simmer for about three minutes, turn turn the heat off, put the lid on it, let it sit for five more minutes, strain it out of the water into the food process or remove peppercorns and bay leaves, buzz it until it's pure ad. And then um, I read a bunch of recipes on how to make chicken lap patten it and people, uh it varied greatly to ask to how much butter people put in? So for my quarter pound, I put in roughly three quarters of a stick of butter. Like the further east you go, the more butter you have, yes, definitely more labby than you are. The more butter you did, you say, three quarters three quarters of a stick? Yeah, three quarters of a stick. And then uh, that's all so it's all pure eight up. And then I think the recipe called for conejak in an avenue. So I think I put in like a tables fun of no, no, no, it was four roses whiskey that had some dust on it. Yeah, and uh yeah, if you buzz that another second longer, put into a ramickin, cover it and put it in the fridge. It sets up and then smeared on crackers. It's delicious. Yeah, but you know, you get into the kind of the point of you're like your creamed cart because you've almost taken what it was and transformed it, you know, so far to something else because you've added how long does it take to do that? Yunny? It sounds like a pretty involved process, Like are you kidding? It was quick and easy. That's the thing that happens in wild game cooking where and we thought it was a bunch of Steve kend rots, very wonderful venison pork fat sausage. Is at what point is it no longer why old game? A quarter pound of liver in three quarters sticks of butter. I was still like the fact that it's liver makes me be like, it's extra wild game, right, It's like extra wild game. So I still feel like that counts is a wild game dish. It's very definitely a wild game dish. I'm glad you brought up his sausage though, because I was talking about this with your brother, and we're talking about like adding too much fat, wasting a bunch of fat, right, because you end up with a pant that's got you know, sometimes a half inch of what you cook. Those sausages that I made, right, there's like a half inch of fat that they're floating in by the time you've done cook them. But I feel like there's something else going on inside the sausage that when you when you cut down the fat, because you're thinking, like all I have here is waste, right, because of all this extra fat I put in here. But something else is going on inside that sausage. It's changing the character of that sausage. With that much fat in the right, even though it's all like there's a bunch left and drift down like when you cut that one, heard, and when you make fat, even though it's like there's a bunch of rendered out fat, what's left over is a much different product. You're right, because it gets like I think you had once said that you described someone sausage as though you had browned a bunch of burger and crammed it into a sausage casing. Were the ones that being like, it's like kind of ground meat in a tube and the fat. You're right, even though the fat comes out, there's something about the high fat ratio that still makes it that you bite into your like that is sausage you guys. All right, so that's what you're hot onto. Yeah, I'm definitely gonna do it again next year, my liver pat alright. Concluders, Oh, you were supposed to bring something. Gonna do it right now as you are we doing concluders. But you were thinking about doing a segue into my concluder. But are you gonna segue off of the moose Heart because you could do a double sege. That's a double segue. Maybe you should do that? Um you think how t o? My first concluder is thank you to everyone for coming out tonight. My uh, My second concluder is, um, there's only eight of these chairs in existence, but these these handy Danny Knew yet E chairs. So these are cool, very comfortable. My third concluder, my third concluder is, uh, hey, Brody, I keep thinking about that uh moose heart taco. You made me speaking of moose. We were talking to a Colorado Parks and Wildlife officer today about other recreational users on public land besides hunter um and the impact they may or may not have on game and other wildlife. And CAL has been involved a lot with kind of bringing those recreational users together with hunters to like join up in this fight to protect our public lands, which got me to thinking about this thing that happened up I believe at Brainerd Lake, not that a couple of years ago um where a I think he was an archery hunter drew a moose tag for the Indian Peaks wilderness there, which is, you know, right there by Brainard Lake and legally shoots a moose within close proximity of the trailhead. The moose kind of saunters through a meadow and promptly dies in front of some freaked out hikers types, which led to that area, like that area being closed within a one mile radius for moose hunting so that no more hiker types get traumatized by animals dieing in front of him, which is kind of irritates me because well, like also it could happen anywhere, like you know, like a hiker could be hiking on any chunk of public land and be like, oh my god, I just the death cycle. Yeah, what kind of place is this? And so like, if we're gonna share public land with these other recreational users, which I'm all for, we gotta share, right like hunt and hunting and things die. And like, I understand why it happened because it's in close proximity to Boulder, and but that shouldn't But that shoudn't matter. No, don't do that. Don't do that because by you Also, Brody provided his own counterpoint earlier that they had opened up like a like basically a green space cow hunt there that went on very well, exactly sew of you guys, probably from maybe some of you guys, hunted it that. When I saw it, I was like, there's no way they're gonna pass this cow hunt, like right outside the city city limits a Boulder on open space like county land. There's no way it's gonna go. And it went over very well. You know, they reduced a heard about that was largely out of control because it wasn't getting hunted, and it went over. Did anyone kill him there? Anyone hunted? Good luck? I feel like they should have charged those hikers more for having the experience of witnessing witnessing such like a rare occurrence. Yeah, like you watch it on you pay cable television to watch that stuff, right, you know, Like that's my brother was recently telling me. When he's watching uh animal chasing another animal heat roots for the animal to get away, I always find myself kinding. I hope he catches it. Yeah, he's like, oh man, I get the press like i'd be. I'd be like, go down, go down, go down. Yeah he got him again. No points, Nope, call hand out a concluder. Yeah. So, thank you guys, very very much for all the public landowner T shirts and all the compliments about our public lands and they're amazing and the hunt eat t shirts and it's awesome, and I hope you guys do more than just wear a good looking T shirt and get involved in this process. It's very easy and uh to talk about this experience and broad he's talking about here. I think it is incredibly easy and incredibly unproductive to kind of be like, screw you, I'm a hunter and I paid for this, and I'm in fact I'm paying for most of you guys recreation opportunities. Though it's so fun and it's so easy, it's just not productive. So trailhead diplomacy is something I always talk about. Have to have a little bit of patients. You have to look at all this as learning teaching opportunity, learning opportunity um for both sides, and you gotta be willing to listen just as well as you uh explain your position. But you know, all this stuff is uh, we like to think of hunting as a right, but it's just something that we really get to go out and enjoy. And it is a very real thing that it it could go away. We could see it happen. So I think all of us, as responsible human beings, adults and hunters, have to go out there, uh with a willingness to educate and make sure that this is around for a long long time. Yeah we did, you get That's a tough one to follow up on, Thank you, But it kind of thought riding on Cal's coat tails there. I think back in the day here in Colorado nies nine fifties, we had a lot of tremendous people who were were class outdoor recreationalist ski jumpers, basically our tenth Mountain Division. Guys, what did they? These are all the original outdoor recreationalists, and that generation was also fishermen and big game hunters, and so somewhere those past recreation hunting and fishing of diverge. And so I think it's up to us now. It's going on with what calisin to kind of bring that full circle through trailhead diplomacy or otherwise and just education, recruiting new hunters. And one thing you know that I see, Uh, last year, I was bummed out. I was driving through northern Colorado through on a National Forest road and I kept driving past camp after camp with dudes in the middle of the afternoon. They're all saying, no, you didn't see a grizzly bear. And they're saying, there's no grizzly bearers here, and there's no hippies here. Um, So I was bummed out because I wasn't seeing any kids. I was just seeing a bunch of dudes here and a bunch of dudes there. Came over the Settle Rise into patch of aspens and I looked up and there was two kids walking up the road with twenty two smiling at me. And was a brother and sister hunting grouse with a rifle and their dad walking right behind them and kind of made my day. And I was like, God, we need more of that out in the woods right now. And I think you know, and so you know, IM parting not to go too long here, but you know, um, life is like a toilet paper man. The more you get into it, the faster goes. There's so many excuses not to take a buddy or a new hunter, or a child hunting. And so you've just got to take it upon yourself to make that happen every opportunity you get, because every day that goes by you don't do it, isn't a day that you didn't take someone else and bring him into this room that is full of people that do what we love. So that's all I got. Blind getting all warm and fuzzy in here. Can't team me up something he served me up? Can team me up something too? Like trying to segue you into something? Yeah give me Oh boy, Um, that's funny because the warden today mentioned that too. Um that struck me and I think you guys heard it today where he mentioned that ten twenty years ago, like every camp he went to. There were kids in there, and a lot of times it was just mom, dad and kids and and just kids that we're not even old enough to hunt. But like every camp you stop, I was like that. And now they literally get on the radio and go, oh yeah, we just stopped at a campus and people is under thirty in it. Um So he he was pointed that as you know, being a factor that we don't have this like younger generation coming up where we still a lot he said, the average age was fifty or something something like that. I think there's a thing that happens and I found it, and this is like just tagging on your concluder. But the thing I found that I don't know if it was something's changed, but I know a lot of guys now that seemed to be that that there like very busy and they're kind of protective of these little times when they can get away, and it's kind of like there's a lot of people that don't want to be bothered by Uh, there's sort of this mentality of not wanting to be like bothered by the annoyance of having kids, right, And so you can I think that now they're maybe not maybe it's not something new, but there's just kind of like reluctance to be drugged down by how I mean, they're little and they're hard to deal with. I have three little kids, and when when I'm fishing with them, I'm like, sometimes not the person I want to be a question too, and I gotta just go like okay, yeah, I usually don't even get to pull the trigger when I have my kids with me, So you can't. There's not even ratio of you know, pull to dead. Sh Yeah, you're like bullet fired deal, like no one shot. You might as well leave you gun at home. And then but then I like I I now and then collect myself. I remember when I was getting a vast act to me at one point the document like this, and I knew I was like, why have I been laving here to twenty five minutes? But yeah, I'll be like this is my kids, be like just pulled together, pulled together, pulled together, and then come back out and be like, okay, everyone, we're gonna get all these hooks out of everybody. We're gonna rebate, and we're gonna get back in the water man. So it's like you got to get him out yeah, yeah, thank you again for coming out. Yeah, I love all you guys. One more minute, it'll be fun. But we will be at the front doors season to sign some books as long as we possibly can. And before you guys all get out, oh yeah, don't storm out of there. We'll be there, so you just, you know, nice and easy, make your way there. But before you leave your seats, we have a couple of hats and then you'd be like, hats for your hat tossed us. Oh, this is the met hats town hats. Oh my god, take up your beer. Yeah, all right, I'm out, Thank you guys. Yeah. Dember