00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is Me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten and in my case underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything. Okay, First thing, Chris Klass, be on a thank you um ahead of time here before we even start, like to thank you for coming um the show to talk to us about some things that I've aged are probably like difficult talk about at times. Um. Yeah, No, I'm happy to be here and really grateful for you guys to to create an opportunity. Two. I think, ah build public awareness around what's important to me and a lot of other people. So yeah, I'm kind of struggling, um in a way that I usually don't to begin, uh, Like like where to start right? Like I want to ask you like what adaptive hunting or adaptive fishing, like what that means? But I also want to talk about your personal story of how you came, you know, to be in a situation where you needed to become aware of what those things are yourself. What like what what feels more natural to you? Um? Either way, maybe defining what is adaptive hunting, fishing, any kind of adaptive recreation. Let's do that. Um, It's all I would say, you know, it's just it's just a person who has a need UM because they have a particular limitation, whether that's physical or whatever. They have a need to find a way to be able to pursue the things that they enjoy. And for me, that means hunting, fishing, camping, and stuff like that. And so you know, like we we kind of have always said that, well, there's two terms. One is adaptive equipment UM, and then that applies to adaptive hunting, fishing, etcetera. And the other is assistive technology, which is kind of the broader field of you know, the kind of equipment that ranges from communication devices to recreational equipment, computer access equipment, UH, home daily living modifications and equipment. And we've kind of always said that assistive technology can range from uh a piece of duct tape or bailing lock wire two UM, a very very high tech communication device that helps someone with no verbal skills be able to communicate through a computer using their eyeballs and a tracking system. So obviously there's a very wide range, wide range of technologies. And and I guess the other important thing is whatever you're talking about, it's not the actual device or piece of equipment that defines it as adaptive equipment or assistive technology, but rather the way it's used. So you know, a piece of duct tape is a piece of duct tape. But um, if somebody doesn't have the ability to hold a TV remote, for example, maybe a piece of duct tape sticks it to a coffee table so slide away from them, and that becomes an adaptive technology. Yes, yeah, in okay, Now can you explain your own personal limitations to It's just so the listeners. I want to walk people through kind of your your personal journey and sort of your background in the out of doors that you that you came up against what I would presume to have seemed like an insurmountable wall in pursuing the activities that you love and then your journeyed up find a way over or through or under that wall. Right, okay, So well, first of all, I'm a quarter pleagic, high level quarter to blegic, you know, and they based on the number of vertebrae, they give it a give it a denotation. I'm I must see three four quad. It means my nerve injury, my spinal forward injury occurred at the level of the third to four vertebrae down from the base of my skull. And so at that level of injury, UM, you know, it can affect a person's diaphragm, you know, making them UH ventilator dependent. Fortunately, I can breathe. I have a quiet voice, but I can breathe independently UM. And then I have no UH sensation or motor function below that level, so said Jana told me, I believe that you said you cannot feel your traps. Correct there, I would say, like clavicles are there's impaired sensation. I might be able to you know, if somebody rubs on it, I would probably know that something's happening, but I'm not normally feeling, If that makes sense. It does. And when you say, like when you when you talk about the ability to feel mm hm, meaning if someone pinched your elbow, you would not know that that was happening, right, yep, yep. So use of use of appendages, arms, legs obviously out of the question. Exactly. Yeah, And it it gets a little more complicated. UM part of your body's autonomic system, you know, which motivates your fight or flight response. UM also has the ability to tell you when something's wrong, where you can't feel it. So you know, if I drove my wheelchair into a wall or something and broke my toe, I wouldn't feel it. But because of my body's autonomic system, I would probably know something's wrong without being traced, like how you knew it right, And and then kind of the scary thing about that is when that happens, and so they call it autonomic disreflecxia. And when that happens, typical things are profuse sweating, um, unilateral flushing, Like one side of my face or head will turn all red, you know, And I mean it's like there's a perfect line down the center of my face and one side is read the other side is not. Um. The other thing is that you're pulse rate slows way down, but your vessels constrict and so your blood pressure go as sky high and and I know people have stroked out from it before that. It's pretty serious. Yeah, And the scary part, as I started to say, is that when that happens to me, I don't really know where to start to figure out what's wrong, you know what I mean, because you're lacking like those those physical cues to tell you that where something happened. Yeah, did you I'm guessing you grew you grew up hunting fishing, grew up in the out of doors. Sketch that out for me a little bit. Um. So I grew up Norther Great Falls and Conrad and um, you know, dry land farming community and there's a lot of pheasants on getting part ridge things like that. So did you did you come from an agricultural family? Um? No, we lived We lived in town. My folks lived on small farm right before I was born. But I did live in town. But all my buddies were farm kids, you know. So I ran around with them a lot on the How old are you? And then so you guys hunted birds, birds, We hunted deer, sometimes elk, but pretty unsuccessfully you know, as a kid. Um, And it was an extended family thing. I've just been a lot a lot of time hunting with my uncle who's from Beaute. Um, you know, grandparents, cousins, things like that. To what degree did you self identify as an outdoorsman? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, like, if people, if someone said, oh, tell me about yourself, right, how quickly would you get to the hunting fishing part of it, Um, I would say, I'd get there. It might not have been the first thing I said, maybe the third um human Americanish. Yeah. Yeah. And as as a kid, like like lots of people, I had so many different interests, you know, and I was unfortunately I was introduced to rodeo and I so I rode horses a lot, and so that was a big part of my interest as well as you know, I wrestled in school and stuff like that sort of variety of things, but certainly, certainly hunting and fishing was part of who I was. But it sounds like you lived in a like you lived in intensely physical existence when you think of wrestling, rodeo, hunting, and fishing. Yeah, I think so yeah, So what M when did you like how and when did you suffer your injuries? Um? So in n I was living in Helena, going to high school, graduated high school, and it was my last year in high school rodeo so um. After the state high school finals in every state, then the top four qualifiers go to are uh they qualify for UM the high school national finals. Rodeo and I did not qualify for the national finals. But then there's been a longstanding. They call it invitational. They call it Silver State Invitational rodeo in fell In, Nevada. So a buddy of mine who had also just graduated high school, Danny Slayton, and I had both qualified for Silver State. We traveled down there. Um, you know, we're at the rodeo and stuff steer wrestling, and Danny was a bull rider. Can you explain what steer wrestling is? Yeah, just like someone who yeh, yeah, it's called steer wrestling or bulldogging. And so basically they're your uh, the steer wrestlers on a horse, and there's a shoot in front of and to the right of the steer wrestler. When he nodds his head, they left the steer out. It takes off for the back side of the arena, and on the other side of the steer is what they call a hazer, another guy on a horse. And so the steer wrestler and the hazer come out of that box and approached the steer, and the steer wrestler then gets down, uh, off the right side of the horse, and the goal is to slide up to the steers horns, grab him in a particular way and then uh wrestle it to the ground basically, and that it's a time to vent and the time ends when the steers four feet are point in the same direction and it's on its side. The steer wrestling. Does it find its origins in an actual activity like roping? Yeah, but there's so there's a in if you're working cattle, there's a scenario on which you do something like that. Yeah. I don't think it happens every day that some guy in a big field bails off and you know, throws a steer. But but but yeah, it's origin was you know, traditional cowboy work, and I'm guessing just to subdue it, to check on it or give it some medicine exactly. Now, is that the one where you get to tie them? No, no, m you just had to get them on their backs or their side in the air four usually like horizontal in the area. All right, So thanks for entertaining that little digression. But so you're headed down into your headed down to was a bat a right? Yeah, So we went to Danny and I went down there and uh so we went to the rodeo. We're traveling home and um, probably fifty miles from home on we direcked this pack up and so that was it. I I sustained my spinal cord injury, and um, that was icy no July and it was evening. I'm not sure what happened. I have no memory of it, none whatsoever. And next thing I knew it was two months later and I was in two months later, have been Denver, yeah, you know, and I was looked around and asked where I am and why am I there? You know, and then I discovered what had happened. I'm clear on this, but I just wanted to back up. Two months went by that you were not conscious or not. I'm not aware of what had happened or where you were. Well, I guess that's a little bit exaggeration. July nine until September two, so probably that's seven weeks. Oh yeah, I mean, well I'm not I'm not counting, Davis, but I just like just kind of stunting. So all of a a sudden you wake up in the hospital and lo and behold, yeah, you can't feel anything, you can't move Ye, what was that? Like? I mean, I can only I mean, it's probably probably gonna find the limits of language when you try to explain what that was like, right, I think, uh yeah, originally you're You're almost where I almost was trying to understand what was happening, what reality was, but at the same time trying to convince myself that it wasn't happening, if that makes sense. There's a you read a lot, you know who Victor franco Is Man. Why do I feel like I know that? No, I don't tell me a bit more. He was a Jewish psychiatrist. Okay, So anyway, in his book, he he writes about this, this what he calls delusion of reprieve, which is when your mind convinces you that everything's gonna be okay. And he says, I'll until the the last second that a condemned man hangs, you know, And I think that's what happened, you know. But at the same time, I had a lot of stuff to learn, which is the whole purpose of rehab, you know. I I had to kind of relearn what my body was and relearn how things were going to happen and how I was going to be able to do things. Yeah, I want to get into that heavy, but I'm still tripping out about delusion of reprieve. The term. Have you ever read Incident at Owl Creek or an Occurrence at Owl Creek? Familiar with the book? I have not read it. It's a so it's a it's set during the Civil War and a man gets captured and they go to hang him by throwing him off a bridge with a noose around his neck, and like the rope snaps, okay, and he lands in the river and lives out this whole existence of making it back home, reuniting with his wife. But then and they end like the rope didn't break, and he had this long in the time it took him to be thrown from the bridge and to meet the end of the rope, he had this long delusion of reprieve. And I think it's called an occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge or something like that. It's a good story. I never heard thatternal delusion of reprieve. Yeah, so you wake up in the hospital and how like how many days or weeks go by before you are kind of like, Okay, here's where I am, this is what's going on. This is my new reality. You know. I've always thought that for me, for whether it happened or not, I think I think my mind then I knew what was happening and had dealt with some stuff before I was consciously aware of it. So so I do remember that, you know, the day I found out everything, you know, which the rest of the day was pretty much a blur. And I remember then, you know, going back to bed. I was up in a wheelchair when they when I discovered everything, and I remember going back to bed. Yeah, it was like a hospital wheelchair, you know. They had me laid laid back in it and I was propped, you know, And were they anticipating that you'd wake up? They didn't know. They didn't know actually what what to expect um it was. So I was at a place called Craig Hospital, which is a rehabsent big one, a good one, neuro rehab. Second floor's head injury, third floor's final cord injury. Obviously I had both some level of head injury as well as the spinal cord injury. It was Labor Day weekend that I woke up, and I know that my dad told me, uh he the doctor. My doctor was having a conversation with my dad. I was on third floor. My end was he was explaining to my dad we might have Chris in the wrong place. We don't know what we can do for him, and he was thinking they better move me downstairs, which my mom didn't want, my dad didn't want, as they wanted to hold onto the hope, right yeah. Yeah, so, um, they didn't know what to expect. And so yeah, that doctor told my parents or whatever that he was going to be gone for the long weekend and when he got back, if there wasn't significant change, I was going downstairs. And when he got back, I was a totally different person. You must I took it as a threat to overheard the conversation. Yeah, so did you? Then you had to have entered into some kind of horrible depression, right, Um, well, and that's that's kind of what I was saying that I think my mind dealt with a lot of it. And and so I remember that day when I got back in into bed and stuff and for the first time was alone, because it's you know, it's a commotion. You get nurses and aids doing, you know, in the room, and and my dad was there that weekend, you know. So when I was finally alone, I think it's when it emotionally hit me, you know. And yeah, there were some real hard hard minutes for a while, but minutes. Yeah, it passed pretty quickly. That doesn't mean I was suddenly like jolly and glad things had happened and everything was going to be okay. No, I had a lot of concern, a lot of worry. But I guess to ask you a question, No, I didn't experience any long term or serious depression. Yeah, and I don't. I mean, I don't say that in a way that I take credit for it. I think I think my mind, you know, worked on it when I didn't know what I was doing. So I'm sure that's a case by case basis, right. Yeah, yeah, were you? Were you a person that that dealt well with adversity through your whole life? Do you feel like? I think so? But I also don't feel like I had a lot of it. You know, I had a pretty good child growing up, So you weren't forged by fire at that point, I don't think so. How okay, As you are coming to where you're I'm trying to get out something like that, it's hard to articulate. So there's probably all the immediate practical stuff like how am I going to come? Like? How am I gonna move? Around where where am I going to live? Um? What is life gonna look like? Okay, so you're dealing with always like, very immediate practical concerns, and I want you to touch on that in terms of how far into this journey did you have to get before you're like, and now I want to begin solving the question of how am I going to enjoy being alive? Okay? So how far into this worry before you thought, like, you know what I used to like to be in the out of doors. Let's start solving for this. Was that a thing that took years or months? It all kind of happened at the same time. And and I think I was real fortunate to be able to go to Craig Hospital and they have a fabulous therapeutic recreation program, which I mean before this I had no idea what those terms even meant together. But Craig was constantly doing things for their Therapeutical Therapeutic Rack or t R. You know, they had outings booked and you know, sometimes it was just going to the mall, you know, going out to eat or whatever. They had several season tickets to the Broncos and later on to the Rockies, and you know to the avalanche and um, then uh, so they're really quick to introduce the idea that you will still enjoy being alive. Oh, absolutely yeah, And and they've got a fabulous team of people. Um, the Rocky Mountain Arsenal is just not far from Craig And so there's Peter guy that we were talking about earlier, Peter Poles. He and a bunch of his buddies worked at the Rocky Mountain Arsenal and made this fabulous bass fishery and it's got wooden walkways and whatever. So they regularly are taking people from Craig Hospital two places like that too, go fishing. And they've got adaptive gun mounts and things like that take people to go shooting. Um so how could like what do you mean, how could you take someone to go well, like, how could they take someone to go fishing? They Uh, they had several buses, shuttle type buses that belonged to Craig Hospital and they post on the wall that hey, we're gonna have an outing to the fishery and you know, anybody that wants to go can come. If you're a patient that wants to go, you know, they say, well you could take two people with you chosen companions, friends or family members, and you just they have it scheduled on the date you sign up for it, and they work with you in advance to figure out what your functional ability is and what your adaptive needs are. Set you up with a fishing rig and do you go fishing? How long were you living in this in this place five months from September through December? So you were almost um getting that like in the in the part of recovery, you're you're almost you're like focusing more on just like trying to live and enjoy life. Almost before you've solved a lot of those practical things that I was talking about. Yeah, And I don't think, in my opinion at least, I did not solve the practical things by the time I left rehab. So I went home like thinking, well, here I go think or swim m and and so I hadn't answered all those questions. But um, there was a particular day, um, and I didn't go on any fishing outings with them while I was there, and I did not go on any shooting outings. I was down in t wreck one day massing around and discovered this one guy was like, Hey, don't you like to have shoot and whatever? And I said yeah, and he said, here, let me show you this. And he showed me the paperwork, the schematics from this high, high level adaptive gun mount that this guy from Bob Bowen from Shadtern, Nebraska had developed. And Bob boys ended up a high level quarter polegic and he was a firearms dealer and very very active sports shooter and hunter and etcetera. And then when he had his injury, he and his buddy set together, set out together and built this adaptive gun mount and so um, and he made it available to people. You could purchase one, yeah, and into the hospital right, And I was for the first time. I mean, I had a great time do anything I did with TRAQ, any of the stuff we did was great for me, great for other people, and really helped me understand that life still happens. But when I saw that gun mount, it hit me. I was like, there's something that I do, you know, way better than hanging out at them all. So I thought, someday I'm gonna get one of those. And so my first birthday after I left re rehab Um, a friend of mine, an old duck hunting, but he bought me one of those gun mounts. Can you explain the gun mount, like what it mounts to, how it functions? Sure? Um, the one that I'm talking about that I first discovered and and first had, they called it the Sour seventies seven. It's so imagine there's two pieces of aluminum I being basically, one going front to back and one side to side. And on top of that, right on top of that running one running along each I being is a piece of all thread running out to the ends. And then on the end of that all thread was a windshield white promoter hooked to each one. And then the windshield white promoters were operated by a joystick which is mounted on the gun mount, and then you put it in a place where the user can move it. So for me, it was right at my chin, so I would The rifle is cut off at the pistol grim. It's got no butt, and it mounts on top of this gun mount, which attaches to my wheelchair and sits over my lap basically, And so I leaned my head forward and look through the scope just like anybody, and then move this joystick left and right, which end up and down, which turns the winch, a wiper motor turns the all thread which makes the rifle aim left right and up and down. And then it's got a little tube, you know, a little plastic straw that's hooked up to They call it a breath toubactuator, which turns your breath into an electrical signal, and that's hooked up to a solenoid and that's sole annoid is attached to the trigger. So when I sip in this tube, it jerks that solenoid, which fires the rifle. It was pretty actually actually quite ingenious and rudimenter at the same time, and it worked. It worked. I shot a quote a few animals with that. So you get this, you get this adapter, and you get it rigged up, and how do you even begin, Like like you go out to a rifle range. Yeah, yep, went out to a rifle range and shot at a few times and yeah, a lot of times and got it sighted in and so it was working. So I had the tools, but I really had no idea how the process was gonna work, Like, how is this going to happen? You know what I mean? I mean, how's it gonna happen? That I'm actually gonna go out and hunt, that I can actually shoot something. Yeah, and um, it's so and marriage with me my girlfriend and so um married from a big hunting, hunting family and her brother at that time was ranching in the Elkhorn Mountains just east Helena Yelk in the yellow Corn. Yeah and so yeah, we were hunting with Tim and that's marriage. Brother, How explain it to me? Well, the first time hunting from a van and just driving up and down the dirt roads looking for deer, looking for whatever, which would uh, we might as well get to this. Let's get to this now because there is obvious question, there's legal implications here, right. So, and in most states, the Wildlife Management Agency UM has permits that enable people with disabilities to do certain things. So like in Montana, Fish Wallypon Parks has what they call a permit to hunt from a vehicle pdh f B And you have to meet certain uh physical criteria limitations and if you meet those and it's all very formal, uh in Montana, coote aditated. If you meet those conditions, they then give you this permit which allows you to shoot from a vehicle. Now you still have the same restrictions. You don't shoot across a roadway, you don't shoot off up paved road, etcetera. But if I'm in a field in a van and somebody opens the door, I can shoot out of it legally. Was it hard to be successful? Like did you Did it take a long time to figure this out? Um? No, it happened pretty quickly, like super lucky. Um. I remember you said, you know and one of your shows, I've watched the meet here a couple of times, and you and Ryan Callenham We're hunting mild deer on public ground in Idaho and shot a really nice nearly and you guys were sitting there chat and you said, you know, that's saying when people say you should have been here yesterday, and you said, we were here yesterday, today is yesterday. And I was like, that's what my experience has been. I mean, luck, whatever you call it it, it's just kind of worked out that way. Doesn't mean that I go home empty handed, just like everybody. And I'm glad about that. But um yeah, I mean I would say, hunted with Tim probably three times and ended up shooting um at four point new there. That was the first animal, I should from my chair? Did it? Did it ever? Did you ever wrestle with it internally or did anyone else ever articulate to you the idea that like like why like why do you want to go do this? Like this is something for other people? And now you're sort of not not that you're not not that you're not eligible, but for some reason, like why go through all the halfs because the experience won't be what it was? Right? So why not just like focus on other things? Did you ever have any doubt like it's gonna be? So I guess I'm trying to say, is that that you're looking at you like my experience of it in the past, that you're walking around, you're doing all these things, that you're dragging the deer whatever it is. Um, so much of that will be different now that maybe it's not the same thing, Like maybe it's like I'm not going out to do the same activity anymore because I can only capture certain portions of the activity now from what you knew in the past. Um. Well, So to answer that, I'm gonna say, I do have that permit from a vehicle, but I do not like to hunt from a vehicle. And so I want to be on the ground. I want to be in the midst of it as much as I can. And and so I've been able to keep it as authentic as possible, and I still feel like I've been able to capture the essence of what what much of it was before I used a chair and afterward. And and so I guess I've never I've looked at it like you know, anyone that haunts knows there's challenges, and so I've just looked at my situation as a different type of challenge, hunting and unimaginable things come up. Um, And so it's just I like that challenge of trying to find a way around it. And I guess ultimately, you know, you asked me when we first started, at what point did I start to identify as an outdoorsman? And so I guess I guess for me, being able to face those challenges and stuff gives me an opportunity to really exercise my identity who I am. And you know, certainly there are because of limitations. Um, you know, like I would love to go on a solo trip overnight and and be solely and completely responsible for the outcome, whether that's judgment or skill or knowing the right place. I like that idea, but it's also not going to happen. And so for me, the communal aspect, small communal, but you know, the the opportunity two connect and retain a bond with people that I spend time in the outdoors is it's beyond value, you know. And and on that note, so my buddy Dan packetty um, and he's the guy that I usually hunt with, and he and Mary and I spent a lot of time hunting together. And Dan's pretty hardcore, die hard hunter and has you know, dedicated thousands of hours over the years that give me and us together an opportunity. And Dan was the guy that taught me how to team rope and really got me into rodeo. I was a young kid, So you were friends with him way yeah, since I was eleven. And and so you know, after my injury happened, there is some sense of losing connection with your friends because things change. And so being able for for him and I to be able to find a new way to connect and pursue a mutual goal, it's a pretty awesome thing. That's a good friend, right, Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, to be through that amount of changes with someone. Yeah, and like and and Mary, as I said, you know, I mean to put in perspective, uh, three people hunting together. And you know, with my situation, you know, it doesn't mean I'm jumping out of bed in the morning throwing my own clothes on. You know, things take a while and I need help with things. So there's many many mornings where you know, Mary and I are awaken two thirty three o'clock in the morning with a flashlight and she's helping me get my clothes, you know. And then but five thirty six o'clock Dan wakes up and starts to slip things on. But we've already been at it, yeah, three hours or whatever, and so it's not gonna happen with without Mary helping me, and and then obviously Dan helping as he does. So I'm the trigger guy. Mary's if you get her upper Dan's for safety guy. Yeah. Safety something I want to talk about because earlier, before before we started recording, you would talk a little about fishing. Mm hmm. I want to get it into that and then get into like some obvious safety issues to come up with being in the boat, for instance. But how can you explain the equipment that allows you to fish? Sure? Um, similar, the controls are similar to that gun mount. And this is all very very recently changed and for the better and and is changing as we speak. But the first equipment I used to be able to actually cast and really in was an electrical device and you know, an analog system, and the guys down at Craig designed it and built it and um it worked also with a sip hum puff tube and so I would I would sip into it into this tube which would activate a little spool that had a small rope on it that was attached to uh, the base of the fishing rod. So as I'm sipping, the spool is tightening up that string, which cocks the rod back, which simultaneously is stretching a spring that's attached to the front of the rod. This headset is coming off. Um U, that's good, that'll work. Forward, there we go, thank you. So as the rods coming back, you know, the rope is the little rope twine is tightening the rods coming back. Then the ng is stretching, and there's there's a device that they built two trigger the um the bail to release the bail without letting the line drop. So when it comes back to the position the bail releases, I quit sipping, and that spring jerks, pulls the rod forward and casts and is pretty accurate. It it is. Um. The old system was basically everything I described, but it was pretty limited, meaning it always casted basically the same angle, the same distance, the same speed, etcetera. It's basically on and off right right, and so then you know when that happens, like um to help you place it, you know in the right hole or right right on the eddy line or whatever. But you're not controlling the distance of your cast. You're contining where you are relative to where you want to wind up. So the fisherman in that instance and the oarsmen are working together, and the oarsmen, you know, is trying to place the boat so that the distance we both know the cast is going to go and the angle of the boat is going to help the fisherman time it enough to drop drop it in the rights. Yeah. Yeah. And then as I said, it's well, how does the process work of so it's all visual, then you're observing it hit you and then how you reeling. Um, I let's see I blow in that same tube which activates the reel, the motorized reel, and it starts to reel. But you know, you don't want to just reel straight in. You know you're your spinner is going to go to the surface, and you know you're not gonna be fishing in the right spot. So then you just kind of work it, and you know, gradually you get to understand the speed of the reel and you're able to blow enough to keep it off the bottom without pulling it to the top. And I'm watching the tip of the rod, and then when something strikes it, then you know, then that system that that I've just explained did not have a hooking action, So then it just meant reeling pretty much as fast as I could. Yeah. Yeah, when you're I could see this all fishing from the situation you described earlier, the guys that made the bass fishery where they had wooden docks. But but you're saying that you're out in a boat, Yes, in a wheelchair in a boat on a river. Yes. Is it like a foregone conclusion that if that boat where to flip, that you drown? Um? Not really? Um, absolutely, there's inherent risk and by doing it, by how greening to participate, you're taking that risk. But that's life. How much is the wheelchair way mm hmm to fifty and you're buckled in, I mean I am the strap and you have a p fd on life jacket. Yeah. And then you know, as Peter my buddy says, um, you know he said, it's calculated risk. You do as much as you can to minimize problems. And I hope that something does happen, and it still may happen, but you've done everything you can to prevent it. Do you when it comes to like the calculating the risk? Are you more now that you've been through so much? Are you more cavalier about risk now? No? I'm actually more careful. Yeah, especially the older I get, things have slowed down a little. Well, I just I'm a little I'm just more careful. I'm a little less willing two two do something that's made be I don't want to say not sensible, but you know that there that there is a greater risk if you catch When you catch a fish, Let's say, do you feel more um you're gonna catch a fish? Is it? Do you feel the excitement of catching a fish and the satisfaction of catching the fish from the same perspective that you would have felt it prior to your accident. Or do you feel like I caught this fish and I'm quadriplegic or do both of those things happen at once? I think they both happened at once. Um. But again back to you know, me knowing that this stuff wouldn't happen without other people, rather than me thinking I caught this fish and I'm quartera plegic. I do you it as we caught this bit? Yeah? You know when I shoot a bowl elk, I don't feel for a moment that I shot it, that I did it by myself. You know, we accomplished that. Yeah, we being um a couple of things. I imagine like we being your immediate group you sort of clan, you know, out in the hills, and then we being like some much bigger we of people who have dedicated themselves. Is sort of establishing the adaptive technology. Right. So are you not in a position where you've been involved in in in sort of designing or consulting or influencing these technologies. Yeah, um, a little bit, mostly because uh, the technology is not happening at big companies. Yeah, yeah, well I think there's a market, but limited it. Probably the research and development is not going to be paid by the return on investment, So it comes from a probably comes from a like a nonprofit. Yeah, and just good people that are I guess muld say nonprofit Like it's not from the perspective of man. If I could build a rod that would be usable to a quadriplegics, I'd make a killing, right, So some of these things must get made, and they're made, like just handfuls of devices, dozens of devices. Yeah. At what point, like because right now you're coming so right now you're here talking to us about this. At what point did you begin to think, um, about you'd overcome like these insurmountable difficulties and you found a way to enjoy the things that you used to enjoy and learn to enjoy new things that you hadn't enjoyed before. At what point did you feel that you had an obligation to come out and like tell other people or help other people get through these things? Um? I think I I think I felt it when it when it first started happening, because I remember that that dear the first year, I was saying I shot UM with Mary and her brother, you know, and somebody called the newspaper and was like, hey, this guy. So they contacted me, we'd like to do a story. M hm. You know, I wasn't doing it for publicity. I wasn't doing it to get my name in the paper. I was doing it because of sheer enjoyment. You were already doing it anyway before. Yeah, But I then at the same time, I felt like I've been granted some pretty amazing opportunities, and and by enjoying those opportunities, I feel some inherent responsibility to to to share that in a way that might help other people. Yeah, and have because it seems to me like you're resilient and that you didn't allow a long passage of time after your accident where you just you know, gave up. Have Have you found that um your case, like your personal journey or situation is sort of an anomaly or or how you find that you have you talked to other people who have not been willing to or been reluctant to to to like overcome all the you know, to overcome all the obstacles. I think sure there are just like any other subset of a population that you know, there's people that really really struggle and maybe don't get to the point where they can start to enjoy life again. And and I acknowledge that, but I but I think people are human beings, are incredibly resilient and find ways to do things. You know. It's funny because I never I didn't know anything about disability before my experience, you know, and then all of a sudden I'm faced with it, and pretty soon you start to recognize that there are people out there doing absolutely amazing things, amazing things that seem totally impossible, and somehow they find a way. And uh so, I don't know, I mean, are there I guess I couldn't answer, are there more or less people who do or do not find ways to do things? I'm aware of a lot of them who have really done some incredible things. Do you do you regard yourself now as being um like involved in a sort of is there sort of like an adaptive movement or an adaptive community that that works to sort of create and connect people with adaptive technologies so that they can you know, overcome disabilities. I mean, is there, like, is there a place where people go for support on these issues or is it just everybody is that kind of every man for himself? No? No, I think what I've found is that, um, people find ways to connect. I don't know of any specific adaptive network or whatever, but certainly with the Internet, people share information and how hey, how does this work for you? Stuff? So there's a lot of benefit from a peer perspective in that way. But but I also feel that, um, there's a lot of programs conservation, hunting, fishing, any kind of outdoor programs that that have in some way done their best to help give people opportunities. And you know, I mentioned Fish Wilife and parks. Uh. You know, they in they initiated what they call They're crossing the Barriers effort, which is their effort to make all their programs, facilities, etcetera, accessible to and usable by people with disabilities. And that includes some of the permitting programs that they have and etcetera. And you know, just the big law, the big civil rights law which prevented and was intended to prevent discrimination by public and private entities, is the Americans with disabilities. So if you think about the fact that Fishwife and parks uh uh, initiated. They're crossing the barriers before the law happened requiring them to do that. That's that's pretty significant, I think. And there's there's a lot of organizations out there. UM A huge one is it's the Safari Club International. I really didn't know anything about the Sparti Club International, and UM I was nominated by a friend of mine, Dr John Harlin, who's retired in Missoula, certain and a member of the Safari Club, and he nominated me for this award that SCI offers. UH. They give it out annually. It's called the Pathfinder Award, and the the winner of the award has chosen because he or she has been a hunter and experienced some life changing event that limits that ability, but still been able to find ways to pursue would pursue those activities, and then also you know, has contributed to others opportunities and that kind of thing. So Dr Harlan nominated me for this award, which means a worldwide award, and I think typically they choose two people a year. And I knew he was because I helped with the information for you know, the nomination or application, But I didn't think there was any chance, you know, so I win. I win the award in two thousand eleven, so SCI flies me to Vegas for their annual convention and they have a banquet, the Pathfinder Award banquet, and so that's where I received the award. The prize for having won the award is an all expense paid trip for me and a companion in Africa for twelve days, including all all hunting expenses and food, lodging, airfare, taxidermy, and shipping of any trophies back to my That's pretty unbelievable. And and it just so happens that the the guide the professional hunters that I was matched with, Uh, the guy started his name. I'll probably say it wrong, but yeahn Lafa and so super great guy. I met him in Vegas. Then we went and spent two weeks with him, and so I was talking to him about the history about of this, how did the path b Under Award come about? How you know, et cetera. And it turns out that I think in the nineties, UM, a guy who was a hunter and real involved and stuff had experienced uh, significant injury. And I was really having a hard time. So a couple of guys yawn and some other guy. UM got together and chatted about it, said what can we do to really help this guy out? So they awarded the first path Bunder award to that guy and took a monit trip. You know, that's pretty amazing. And I the Safari Club in and National does that kind of thing in its local chapters all the time. So I have personally with the Western Montana chapter I participated in. I've been there on two haunts where young boys with disabilities we're able to haunt elk and both were successful. The only reason I was there because I have a four world right vand with a lift, So I was just helping them get where they needed to be. But yeah, it's and and so I guess sorry for my deviation. Whole point is, um, you know, there's lots there are a lot of programs and organizations that that like being involved in this kind of thing and that see the reward that happens. And so UM, I I guess there's not an adaptive network, but there are there. There are people and organizations out there that facilitate the process. Do you have a thing you say or would like to say when you meet people who are trying to overcome these kind of you know, these like severe adversity, these adversities in life, like like do you have coart of like a stump speech you give the people who feel like there's no way to go forward, and it's coming from someone who's been there, you know. Um, I guess not the specific language, but two messages that I hope that I share because because they're they're things that have helped me, And the first one is they're kind of related. But the first is and not lose hope, you know, I mean, if you lose hope, you might as well hang it up. You know that things will get better, things do get better, things get easier, more enjoyable. And then just generally to not lose hope in a belief in possibility because I think if if a person's able to envision that that's something they want to do can happen and maybe will happen, even if they don't know how it will, I think that keeps them moving forward and towards finding a way. Have you had a problem keeping your own advice? At times you fall into you're falling the moments of bitterness through Are they frequent? No? No? Are they long lasting when they come. No, is it fair to say bitter like? What's it feel like? UM? I would say discouraged, discouraged? Yeah, yeah, I don't think I've ever been better, but certainly discouraged. And fortunately they're not long lasting. Man, I really want to thank you for come and take the time to talk to us. Yeah, thank you guys for do you have anything you want? Things you'd like to add that we didn't get a chance to talk about. UM. Now, I was I was thinking as we're driving over here, you know, because I know you usually ask questions like that at the end, and and so, UM my thought would be, you know, speaking to any organizations out there or people who who find some level of whatever joy satisfaction. Um in seeing people who have limitations be able to pursue these activities would encourage people to to please help support those opportunities. Um. However, they can get involved with a conservation group, get involved with those boarding groups or whatever, and they're not difficult to find, you know, and and maybe you can be an instrument to to help somebody face what is otherwise a pretty insurmountable barrier. So I guess that's the first thing. And um, and then secondly kind of alan the same lines. If if there are individuals who or maybe end up listening and think, you know, yeah, but I don't you know that that couldn't happen for me. Yeah, I can, you know, and and I'm I'm so fortunate that I've had the social support and the people around me too to encourage me to do things, you know, and so up a person doesn't have those people. Let's say if I was plucked out of my regular everyday life and dropped into a new location where I didn't know anybody, and I had to figure out, how can I do this if if I want to, you know, don't be afraid to knock on doors, don't be afraid to find out who the groups are around that, what they do, what can you do to offer them? And you know, so I guess that will just hopefully lead to opportunities. Yeah. Well, I just like to point out that, like we kind of breezed over Chris's very very like lustrous hunting career, and it sounds like he shot like from what we heard in the last hour, like a deer and elk, but from talking on the telephone, I mean, you've now killed like you're saying dozens of l dozens of deer, and you're even shooting ducks now right, I read in an article where you're trying working on it. Yeah, like wing shooting. I did. I did wing shoot one duck which may have been lucked. But you know, they usually they usually land into the wind. They usually come in about the same altitude or same level above the ground. So if I'm aiming in the right direction and it's a safe direction, and I know, you know, uh, reasonable distance to shoot, and adult happens to enter that area, then I think it's reasonable to take a shot. Yeah. How many days would you say now like this coming up fall? Like what do you have plann or like, how many days do you think you'll spend out and about? Um? Well, since I'm planning to draw a bull, moose per man um, No, I'll probably spend between hopefully ana dear elk, maybe a moose. Um, I'll probably spend twelve fifteen days in the field, you know, something like that, more than the average hunter is going to spend in the field. Yeah, that puts you in top tier. I puts you in top to your days in the field out top tier outdoorsman. And I would say some years it's a lot less like like anybody, you know, either life gets in a way or you get you were there yesterday the first time you go out. But no, I I yeah, I just I'm enjoying. And what's the next piece of equipment that you're thinking like, this would be cool? I should or we should start working on this too, you know, help you do something that you feel like maybe he's out of reach, but you're thinking about it. Well, it's it's being perfected right now. The guys down at Craig Hospital have been working on that fishing system we talked about, which is analog. They've now got that all converted to digital, which gives it more capabilities. I can set a hook, I can adjust the angle of the cast um and let's see what else the distance of cast and so uh and I've I've used the prototype well in the yard, you know, with Peter. Peter had it, My buddy Peter had it plugged into a laptop and so he and I were just casting it together. I was casting it, he was making adjustments and stuff. And they're perfecting it right now. So yeah, I really want to use that device. And then uh, they're going to use that same technology to further improved a rifle mount. So I would be I'd really like to try that is the Is some of the equipment prohibitively expensive? Yes, yes it is um but some of the people who make it, because they know they're not making money, are very generous with it. Generous to make and then generous to get into people's hands. Basically, yeah, for what it costs them to build it, sometimes less if they can get some of the parts donated or otherwise acquire them. Yeah. Uh, these guys sound likes are pretty amazing guys there, they're they're amazing. And I know, you know we're talking earlier. You guys are gonna be spending more time in Bozeman. Oh, it's strongly encourage you to go check these guys out on fish Hatchery Road. Well it's Barney Road, I think the road that goes to the Barney Bridge by Nathan. A while from the bridge, they have their camp. It's called Camp bull Wheel because there's a big actual bull wheel still sitting in the yard from Nies or something. And yeah, these you guys are going to be doing some pretty cool stuff. I mean, like making adaptive technologies available to people that need them. Yeah. Oh, and there's so many people contribute into the to the project, you know, volunteer guides, volunteer shuttlers. One guy, um he's planning to come bursting that I think maybe from Indiana. He's gonna be here for the whole summer. His jobs to cook. Um so. And there's running river trips with people wheelchairs and fishing. Yeah, people in wheelchairs or other limitations that might not be wheelchair but yeah. Yeah, what's this organization called again Camp Bowl wheel and then the Again the hospital that's done a lot of the Craig Hospital and they do a lot of they've helped develop a lot of adaptive technology. Yeah. That's good for people to look up and check out the thing. Yeah, that's good stuff, right man. Well, thank you, yeah, thank you guys for joining us. Appreciate you taking all the time. I know you have a long drive. It'll be a good drive though, stay out there. Yeah you've seen some wildlife I think. Yeah, alright, Chris Chris Clasby, Thanks Chris, thank you, thank you guys. Man By

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