00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast, coming at you shirtless, severely bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything all right, coming at you. You know, a little bit bug bitten because I just got back from Mexico and got bit by some bit by three different kinds of things. A little sand please, not the kind of used for fishing bait, not little ghost crabs which some people call sand please, bit by those, but by regular mosquitoes, and also bit by no seams at dusk, sons of bitches come for you. I wouldn't have been prepared because dude, I brought down Deep. I put it on my kid's legs, and as soon as they went to bed, I'd give me a shower. I'm a little bit pared worried about Deep, rightfully, so, since it will warp your phone, as I found, if you spill Deep, if you spill this insecra pullet on your phone, it'll warp your phone. So imagine what it does to your parts of you know, your skin cells. Uh So, yeah, coming at you, partially bug bitten and definitely from the banks of the Mississippi. There's a writer that he there's a writer named Ben Metcalf. I don't know if he writes anymore or not. He's to he's to write pieces for Harperism. Was also was an editor somewhere, No yah, I can't remember who he worked for, but he wrote, and some of his work will be collected to Harper's. And this guy Ben Mattcalf wrote a piece called American Heartworm, and it was about the Mississippi so as much as Twain, as much as Mark Twain would celebrate the Mississippi, Ben metcalfe uh lowth it the Mississippi River one of his credits for a lot of reasons. One that he feels that any self respecting rivers should be able to handle some amount of water without spilling out of its banks, and like it for that reason. Another thing is he feels that it's also the Mississippi is a con man um and his and and stole like stole its place in the American lexicon because by any regional reasonable measure, by any understanding of a hydrology, the Mississippi isn't the Mississippi. The Mississippi is the Missouri. The Missouri is the great continent drainer. I mean it heads in three Forks, Montana where it's principle where it's UH. Three forks is the confluence of the Madison, Gallatin, and Jefferson. So it's like the Secretary of UH at the time of the Lewis and Clark expedition. Yeah, Madison Secretary state, that's over my head, Jefferson, And get look at who then armed after those three fellers and all all political figures at the time they all head together. They come together at three forks and form in the Missouri. And then that thing flows thousands of miles and picks up a little ship in tributary called the Mississippi and thereby changes its name. What all this is doing is just like picking up a minor tributary dwarfed by like not nearly what the Ohio is. When it picks it up, it should be called the Missouri River. Who has this little, little known tributary called the Mississippi. This has been Metcalf's argument because we're empty. It's not where it begins. It's because people saw it and didn't really didn't really until later fully comprehend like what that watershed was, that it was one of the great if at the confluence if the which one is greater, like which one has it when they come together. The Missouri's carrying more water mhm. And the Missouri has been cranking along for the Mississippi heads like north Yeah, north central Minnesota. So how far from here? Not as far away as western Montana. The river is a con man. Uh, you don't wanted to talk about that. This quick little thing that I found on it, it just says the president was named after the President and two of his cabinet members. But it doesn't say Jefferson was the president. Doesn't well, Tommy Jefferson, but it doesn't say you know what positions they held in the cabinet. It was like, uh, it was like treasure and secretary or something like that. Easy to find out, easy, so easy to find out. It's staggering that Yanni hasn't found out yet. Um, you're honest to recap some of your time you've been messing around with SUV cooking. M you just did some shanks in your SUV machine. Tell me about that hours I cooked him at what temperature? Hundred and sixty that's hot for Suvi? Yeah, I don't know, Yeah, it is on the hotter side. I don't think you Look, I've done two different recipes now, so I'm definitely still figuring out. And from what I've been reading online, I think there's still a lot of figuring out. I think one of the pluses or you know, pitching points off suv is that, yeah, there's a great window they the meat is done and what won't be overdone. You might explain it to folks. What we're talking about is the bulk of them. I think the bulk of might know. My brother just last night, what if I knew what a bond me sandwich was. I've been eating those things for Yeah, those are tasty long time. So here's the guy. One website called Chef's Steps dot com, which is a Suvie recipe website. I have there you go, Um, they have a squirrel bond Me recipe made with Suvie squirrel Me. Yeah, but my bro made bond me with Patte that you made from some some game livers, dear liver and something else. Putting. I would bet you there's no way we can find out but that it might not be the bulk of our listeners would know what Suvi is. I'm guessing I would take that bat would you're saying that of the mugs listening right now, less than half are familiar with SUVI. Yeah. Well, I'm just saying that that's a high probability, high enough where I would take the sure break it down. But some Suvie cooking basic Let me do this. You know what Suvie is. I don't know, Mr durn, don't look at me. Man, So half of this room, um, and they actually count of listeners, I really don't. But you basically there's a it's cooking in water and so that you're cooking meat and water, actually cook anything. There's vegetable recipes, there's fish recipes, but so that you don't uh, you know, basically boil your meat and get it all soggy. You put it into a sealed plastic bag. Now you can just use a regular old ziplock, or if you have a vacuum sealer, you can go that route. Um. The machine, the way that the whole system step is usually just used like a large stockpot, maybe a two or your gallon stockpot. And then there's a machine that looks like a I don't know, it's wand shaped, I guess, um, And basically half of it plunges down into the water and it regulates the temperature of the water. And I don't know what the lowest and highest settings are, but you basically just set that and it keeps it at a perfect temp that you want to keep it at for however long you want to do it. Yeah, Like you like if you're cooking, Like let's say you're cooking a roast and you want to pull the roast it for rare, you know you want to pull, you pull, you want to pull your venison rolls. So say you like, I like to pull it up. Well, the ovens four d degrees, right, So this thing is climbing, climb and climb, and to eventually reach that and you're intercepting it at that point where you want to nap it out then and there you are. Yeah. Added, the complication of that set is that you pull it at one temp knowing that it's going to continue to rise to your goal temperature because the outer heat is going to continue to penetrate into the inside. So this you just said that what you want to end up at exactly. So if you're cooking, if you know that you like your salmon, say at blank temp, you just set your water bath at that temp drop in your back. So I mean, if you think about it, like if you said it at one sixty, the meat never gets above one sixty. Yeah, but what does happen is that there is a breaking down of you know, proteins. Obviously because I cooked my shanks for forty eight hours and hours, that's the thing. But again the recipe was like, it's like we could have eight eaten it Saturday night. Instead we ate it Sunday. It's perfect on Tuesday, and it's perfect on Wednesday because it's just keeping it at that temperature that whole time. It's not rising, which I think when you're going for a medium rare steak is important. But in this case the shanks, it's obviously continuing to break it down, which is I think where it might get a little bit trickier. The window might not be as great when you are working with a piece of me that you want to eat it medium rare, because medium rare or whatever, hundred thirty degrees after six hours is going to be different than a hundred thirty degrees after ten hours. Oh yeah, I kind of exaggerate about done on Tuesday and down on Wednesday, same temperature on Tuesday, same temperature on Wednesday. But it has a Hessy effect of you can screw it up, you can screw it up. I don't know exactly how yet. I'll know more. I'm gonna keep messing around with it, but well, I know how like things that I've screwed up is, I've found it. When it comes to cooking wild game For me personally, UM, I don't like. I don't like to use the Suvi for like lean gross that don't have a lot of connective tissue on them, such as like if you were to take a white tail deer and take the sirloin or round rolls off the back leg, I can get a better effect. I can get a better product in my oven that I can get with my Suvie because it gives it to my taste, it gives it a sort of pastiness. Where I think it really shines is when it comes down to cooking things. It's it's an easy, pretty failsafe way to cook cuts that are best cooked slow cooked strategy, like I've taken one of the one of the things I made that I liked most was Suvi was I took one time. I have Elena front leg of have alna, which is a rascally little a rascally little hunkle. It just sounds tough. Yes, yeah, you can pull those strands out and flash your teeth with them. Okay, but in that thing, I think I gave it like thirty six hours, um, and then it just is like you could just pick it apart of your fingers and it's silk and beautiful. Yeah. Well I just kind of tossed those picked all that meat, kind of tossed him with oil and then stuck him under a broiler for a minute because the thing was stuvee. Cooking is you're oftentimes getting it just right. But what you get used to And I remember one time a chef like reading about the chef who was wanted to quit being a chef, and he says, well, I just got bored with it. Um, making things soft on the inside and crispy on the outside. It just got old to me. But when you do a roast in your oven, like one of the nice things about it is you get that like that like finished outside, you know, like crispy browned outside, and you cut in and low behold, there's like this magical red middle and it's like the whole thing together. All the parts are bigger than any individual part. The texture that meat of a nice roast like that, the texture and the meat is a part of it. And if the other way of cooking is breaking that down, then I see where you're because you wind up with the whole beauty of it, like the crispy outside, the red size, like it's all nice together. So what a part of Stuvie cook Like most Suvie preparations, you'll find that you're gonna get it perfect and then see it after the fact. Whereas if I'm cooking rolls to my oven, I see it and finishing my oven. Here you're off and like a lot of if you're looking at the Suvie a lot of preparations, you're starting it. You get it all done, it's ready to go. Can you take that thing out and see it? Or people even finish them with like a torch apparatus, right like you might like eat people to do like Suvie scallops and then take a torch and see here the scout with a torch and really control that. Then you know. So it's real science he cooking. But as good as it is for some stuff, I don't think it's like perfect. It's not like perfect for everything. No, I don't think all of a sudden, I'm just gonna start having just get ready your oven. Five buckets in the kitchen, and one says Monday and Tuesday Wednesday. But I'll tell you what's cool, though, is you could take a couple, let's say, because you did chanks right, how they turn out great? So I had I did a m sick of dear shank, the whole shank in the bag. It had a white tail shank. And then I had one bag. I think they had three or four of those. Again, do you know the name of that little it's like a shank, but you know it's not connected to the bone. It's connected to that that goes up on the hind leg. We kind of get that big shank like peace right, It has all that same seeing you in college and stuff running through it. And um, the ones on the bone were just delightful, this silky smooth, wonderful flavor. Um, and no dryness at all about him. The antelope little football tendon chunks I just described. Um there's still a touch of dryness and it wasn't the SUV's fault. It's just the cut of me. It just didn't have as much fat, connected tissue whatever it is as the shanks that were on the bone. Yeah, that's that's kind of like the sort of the thing with all forms of cooking is um not all hunks of meat made equal. No, if you went to make sure, if you took some like surloin meat and went and did a a shank preparation for it's gonna be miserable. But there's something about those those pieces that have all that collagen or stuff that breaks to connective tissue, silver skin, tendons that break down into that just like silky beautiness. I love it um. Well to say it's nice thing about it is, if let's say you're having some folks over for dinner, you could bag out servings, stick them in that thing and you don't know you're eating at five o'clock or eight o'clock. Right. Yeah, you can bag out serving stick them in that thing the day, a day and a half before, two days before, a day before whatever, for your partic your preparation, knowing that at the second you want to reach in there and cut those bags open, it's already but you're just you're just like putting you know, you're you're putting all the ingredients in there, you can you know. Yeah, what I'm saying like like you know, you're if you're doing shanks, you're putting all the azabuco, all the things would traditionally going to asa bugle in that bag and stealing that bag up and putting them in there. What I'd like to mess around with a little bit is like I was thinking about maybe putting like a couple of sprigs at time in there, sprig of rose man, some butter, you know, maybe trying to some wonder if it will impart that flavor. No, I feel, yeah, I've packed that bag full of good things to eat, even you know, doing something like the Havolino sang. But yeah, I just like for me though, cooking those like loin and loin and like quality roast. It's like I get such what I get out of my oven cannot be beatn yes, can you. It's more of a replacement for basically brazing technique. It's a nice it's a nice fail safe, time friendly. It takes a lot of time to do it, but it's good preparation. And when you said that you're putting all kinds of good So you're like putting vegetables and all kinds of things in with it. Sure you can't know that the vegetables are going to be yeah, because like you know everything even then everything has its own cookie time. I mean there's like it's it's becoming such a popular thing now that there's no short you can go find recipes for anything. Should you go buy us? If you buy a Suvie device, it's gonna come with a book. You realize every damn thing you've ever eaten now one thing? Uh Um. Steve Kendrot, he's been doing salmon, Like I gave him some salmon from the fish shack. He's doing salmon and his Suvie and loving it. That dude is a Suvie fool. Now he knows about it, you know, he damned sure know about it. He likes it. I sent him some vacuum bags and he was he was more fired up about Suvian with him than he was about freezing him. Huh. Speaking of Steve, I was also telling you that made his Fennel sauceag dress um, which it's just it's it's so good. It might be so good because it is so simple. But literally all it is is fat, salt, pepper, and fennel. Well meat. Yeah, so you got your yeah, you got your buck meat. Then he caught the fat in. Yeah, a lot of fat. It's his recipe was fifty fifty's much and I had the sauceage is phenomenal. But I think it's like, but I wanted the first time I wanted to do it. I want to follow the recipe because I feel like you should. And then you can tweak it because you just never know otherwise. So next time I probably will cut it back to forty, maybe even thirty. Um. Yeah, And my thinking of it goes to be honest, like what tastes good fifty fifty. At some point it ceases to be a wild game dish, that's true. At some point it becomes it's like a hybrid. It's all a hybrid. Like my brother used to be like a real purist and he wouldn't put any domestic fat in his gaming. He would just if he was making burgers, he'd crack an egg in there, Danny, he'd crack an egg in there so he could make it hold together into patty. That's extreme I think is extreme. I find my personal comfort zone in the ten to fat. Yeah, but I feel like, to me, sausage, it can't be sausage. And if there's if it's not like greasy enough, there's gotta be some grease left in the pan, because otherwise I feel like you're just eating this like thing that kind of tastes like sausage because the flavors there. But something is just not sausage like because you've taken too much fat out. Okay, then let's come up with a different word for it. Meat. Uh sticks, No, that's not right. I get what you're saying. Sausage flavor dry meat, ground dry, ground meat, sauceage flavor dry me. I'm cool with that, but his sausage is really good. Anyways, Yeah, back to it, and the recipe came out wonderful. I mean it's just so simple fennel. I mean it's all you're like tasting and salt, pepper, and it's wonder Does he toast his fennel first? I don't know if the recipe didn't call for that's a good trick man, when you're making sausage like whatever, like sweet Italian any kind of sausage. You're putting fennel in there. Take all your seeds and toast them, right, what does that do? Smells your whole house up, like fennel smells good man. I don't know if it then goes away, but just like really like pleasing. If you toast them and you get them all warm, like coriander, fennel, whatever, you put them in a pan over burn is a dry pan over burner, kind of shake it and they'll kind of let off like a like an oil, and they'll get very fragrant. Then throw those. But if they're still warm, you throw those in your coffee grinder. If you're doing like if you're like pulverizing a little bit, then you really got something that smells nice. I think it's got to add to the flavor because there's a lot of dishes, like when you're cooking Indian food, A lot of times like you've sauteed your onions and and maybe a couple of the other things that you're sautang like that in the oil that might take five or ten minutes. And before you add like let's just say ifest curry, before you add the coconut milk and your carrots, and peas and chicken or whatever it might be. UM, when you throw the spices in, you let them kind of cooking toast in that pan for a couple of minutes to you know, release extra flavor, and then you add in the rest of the ingredients. So I'm sure it works the same for that funnel. The next thing I'm gonna sue v and this is the last we'll talk about it. I still have two big gass yellow eye flats that I've been eyeballing in my freezer, and I wanted to get to them pretty quick. They last a lot longer in salmon and the freezer because they're not that fatty. But I'm gonna do those. I'm gonna do those guys with my SUV machine. I used to have a giant Stuvie machine that came with like what looked like you can wash a child in the tub. But I gave it to my buddy Pooter because now I got that smaller one. Um. Pat Dark and Doug during the Cousins, the Drek and during Cousins Pat. Okay, it doesn't really matter what you say, because it's not gonna change in my mind. What who who has tell me about your opinions on your findings on wound wound loss. I was gonna say before you even said what you said, I was gonna say, I know, Mary, what do I say right now? I probably won't change your mind. You were going to preface, Yeah, I was gonna be my preface. Um, I'll start by saying one article I've always liked. The way I handled it was I broke it down one time in a Wisconsin gun season to show that our peak deer season was the year two thousand when we killed like over four hundred thousand deer in Wisconsin and we basically if I broke it down to show that we were killing about one point four deer per second during that nine day guns season, and you break it over the course of the nine day season, and then I started calculating. I started looking into it to kill one point four deer second. Comment, So, all right, did you ever figure it out like an opening day? No? See, actually I actually did that, but I don't have that. I don't have that at the tip of my tongue. No. I actually did break it down by by UM opening weekend and then UM opening Day and then the rest of the season. I had this whole article on this whole topic, so real, real quick. On opening day of the four hundred thousand they got killed in the season, can you guess how many got killed in open open the weekend typically opening weekend. I think they figure close to sixty percent gets killed opening weekend night. Then it just kind of goes down picks back up around Thanksgiving because we always have our season around starts the weekend before Thanksgiving, the ends the Sunday after Thanksgiving. How big was the deer herd this year? The year you're talking about, um, that was like an all time record numbers. So I think they calculated one five million deer or so one point six million they they estimated in that population, and they were able to they were able to pull a harvest of four hundred It wasn't even more a four hundred dollars. And that was at the time regarded as like wildly too many deers. Oh yeah, I mean well, I think realistic people I thought that was too many deer. We had too many deer and deer on the ground not getting killed. But then you go into, um, what hunters want though, and there was a lot of hunters that your thousand that was a pretty mediocre to average season, you know, so you always get those arguments A happy never happy. As I said the last time we talked, deer make people stupid, just the way it is. Um. But to continue my discussion though, is I UM, I got curious about that after for shooting that made dear you know, deer per second, and I think last season was point zero point six two deer per second in the last cutting season two thousand seventeen, two seventeen was zero point six to deer, so point six deer per second, and in two thousand it was more than more than double that over the average out of the course during hunting hours. I just was doing some math there exactly. Yeah, yeah, I broke it. I broke it down by hours of shooting light, the kind of thing. And then, um, what was fun then was I took those kind of numbers and started digging into the research I could find on on how how many shots get fired for each year killed. And there actually is you know, some research around Wisconsin from the seventies, and there's research from Carolina, South Carolina in two thousand, not that time period. UM Ontario did this one time, but basically Wisconsin back in the seventies nineteen seventies UM, and some of the research that did was it was averaging between three point five and seven shots per year taken was about what was coming at Yeah, this, this is, this is in one area. This is never only as qualifiers. We're all never convinced you because it's most studies are taking place in controlled settings because he can't just squa out in the landscape with all the variables and get anything interesting. And so anyway, you had this variability because they had different kind of seasons. They sept one season was endless only, so the guys had to be more careful when you shot that you weren't shooting a buck, So that that kind of cuts down how many how many shots are being fired if you have a wide open season where anything is legal. They were shooting a lot. They shot like almost twice of many shots and those kind of seasons. But then I looked at m I phone this this research from South Carolina looked into that, and they were shooting only one point two times for each deer they killed. And those guys that were sitting up and basically shooting house rateful of rest nice setups were there, touching out the shots like a real precision type shooting. And then you had um other scenarios. So none of these things are all equal. You know, I'm getting that here. So so I fine, I did was I had? So so the South Carolinians are when they looked at this, they were shooting not much, not much one point two shots per deer. But who was up? Who was super high again Wisconsin man, you guys? Yeah it was but of course to well right not not now what Doug brings point, it's a fair point because plus the plus they're hunting an area where guys couldn't go in set up tripod stands, I couldn't hang all these different things. It's probably being shot off the ground, you know, offhand, and so the conditions weren't liked. Yeah, it's probably more like shitty scopes the way that the way yes old guys used to hunt. You know, I took a lot more shots when I was younger. Yeah, but then but then so like what I did though, is I looked at these different variables and thought read us range from one point to deer per shot two over seven? So anyway at seven shots, yeah, and and and and I just I can't understand it. I'm not I'm not calling you a liar. I just don't understand it. Where a lot of that comes from is that you're shooting lover her actions, pump shots, shotguns, that kind of stuff, some atomatics, and and they're shooting showing too that once a guy um missed a shot, well he had follow up shots, and like half the guy shooting at that first shot, we're missing the shot, right, and then the dude takes off and bang bang bang. All of a sudden, there's lead in the air. So you can say he does that three times, and he does that two times, and then it gets a deer fun yeah, and you think, well, I but I'm pulled the hunting grounds up the river here and um Wendona, Minnesota back in the early nineties, and I remember thinking every time it sounds like no shotguns one off because it shocking the only area if it's not like they're shooting all five shots. So that's some atomatic, you know, shotgun or pump shotgun. It was. It was constant, and so I would I guess I'm not that shocked by hearing that seven was average in this one particular. There's there's one hunt that this one on like that. Yeah, if you go read Yanni's buddy Jack O'Connor, I'll call Jannie O'Connor Jack O'Connor. All those guys did was shoot. Yeah, they'd crawl up on a her to something and it would be the you know, twenty rounds and then they'd go up and like analyze the performance. The first shot caught it, you know, low across the chin, second shot, the second, third, and fourth, fifth, and sixth with them. My seventh shot really brought anchored it down. Well, so sure, yeah, so what I did those at average done? I thought, well, seven is obviously throw that one out once. Yeah, that's the other extreme. But average is out and you came up. My average came up the three point four or five shots per second, I mean per per per deer. And so then I started calculating that. I thought, well, last gun season Wisconsin, if you use three point five point five three point four or five shots per deer last year in Wisconsin, we was shot close to eight hundred thousand rounds to get to get that number of deer. We we brought front in last last fall. And during that season that I talked about our record season it was up in Uh yeah, I think a million and a half shots. And well then I went and I thought, I looked at the top ten deer states in our country, and that year two thousand and I came up to it's like twelve and a half million rounds. If you're using that as your average, we're being fired. So then so I'm working my way back to your discussion here. You know, I have it. It's just too staggering for me though. It's huge. And so when when we get these discussions about wounding, I've always maintained that in my own experience, it's it's tougher when I look at every year i've killed. I've killed over a hundred of them. I think when I've shot the one is the rifle I didn't I didn't always know if I got him or not. By that, by the way, the dear responded, where I thought most of your shout the bowl, I've always known if I hit him or not. I mean, I don't think I've ever been shocked. You know that I missed one or right, or I hit one that that that I thought I missed, that kind of thing. That's a good point. Yeah, gun hunting bull hunting. You you don't, Yeah, you don't usually like can't tell if you you typically might you might want, you might shoot and then not be clear on the quality of it. Oh, that's that's common. I mean you talked that's almost not not quite the dorm, but it's pretty typically not a little like man, oh, it looked like it might be a little far back, Yeah, a little high. When you talk to guys at track deer with with with dogs and they asked the guy, where'd you hit this deer? And the typical bull on say right here in the pocket and the shoulder, and they find the deer and that's got you know, you know, in the hand, in the hams. You know, who knows where you know? So so so I've always thought that if you really get some research on this, what research we have, and find out what the percentages are for bull hunting versus gun hunting, I'm I'm pretty well convinced that it's about equal. I really, Uh it's it's because but again, what what that that that you know it's pulled holes or my argument because all of those studies have been basically done under pretty controlled situations. You know, bull hunting the ones they've been able to study are typically control situations. It's like the one that's famous for the initial one that we often refer to. It up here at Camp Propley, a couple hundred miles from here in Minnesota, and there they had um their their initial wounding UM number percentage of deer wounded was I think around writ in that range. But then they figured that they realized, well, just because the deer is wounded doesn't mean it's it's dead. It doesn't mean it's I'm not gonna be recovered. And sure enough they found that in that situation is a lot of hunters in that in that camp. And these are weekend hunts. I should should have that too, just strictly a two day hunt that it's done. It's a real control situation. But they found was that, um, they're average over over four thing. It's like four different hunts they they studied, only of those deer were never recovered. Of those deer that were shot and hit in some location, only on average weren't recovered taking home, taking home, you know, a guy dragged that deer out of the alf the cants property. Now, um, then there's also indible condition. Yeah, yeah, because you know at Sunday at at this is on Saturday, Sunday hunt that they did Camp Ripley Sunday afternoon. The Army basically throws you out. You can't go back and look for your deer if you don't have it. Tough luck, you know. So that's what that was, the unrecovered deer was and this was which weapon arrow that was back in the early nineties. And so that's one study. Then the other days they've done. One was out in Connecticut and that suburban area. One was over Iowa in a suburban area. And then there's like a naval weapons station out in Maryland did one well not too long ago. They wrapped it up about ten years ago, and there's was one of Maryland. I think there wounding rate was um, I think eighteen percent where these are deer that were hit and not recovered. Now, the one in Connecticut was about I think fourteen thirteen pcent and the one in Iowa suburbs was about so and then then the one with now now switching to rifle. How many of these rely on self reporting? Well, they all rely on self reporting. That's what okay. And when I earlier when I said that no matter what you said, won't because because I know that relies on self reporting. Yeah. But but what they find too is self reporting typically is that if you get the people right on the spot when they come in. Most of these guys, like in these in these suburban hunts, these are guys that, um, I'm pretty sure the one and well I know the one Connecticut was a shooting test. He had to pass the shooting testable when they're to even be allowed to hunt. And I think the one in Iowa had that kind of speculation. Well, yeah, that's and then again that's in near a factor that these are people who are dead serious bull hunters who know that taking long shots is used to increase the risk. But what I found interesting looking at that South Carolina study and with a rifle, these are dead serious riflemen, and these guys they're sitting there with basically a little tripods and they're shooting set up there. They're typically shooting on a fifty yards and aren't five yards, and they found a real split once you started going beyond yards. Even these guys were really good, they started hitting more deer and not knowing if they hit him, losing them. That kind of thing, but every shot taken, every deer fired at in that study, they had dogs, they'd go out there and look around, and and that study that they end up finding out that they figured the wounding it was about fit, was about wounding loss. Even with that these really good shots shooting control settings, not taking these long flyers, they were still you know, had a fifteen wounding loss And a lot of those do they'd never have found if not for the dogs going out there and finding evidence of a hit that they thought they missed, you know, because you know, you know, everyone here has been a situations where you fired a shot on to fit the yards across the field or whatever. You walk over and you look around, look around, look around, you can't find the sign, and a lot of people would give up not not looking any further. There's no snow cover in many cases. And that's the factor that all these moving parts is what makes a wounding loss so hard to ever really pinned down for sure, is that you have so many different conditions, so many different um ways that things can go wrong, that it's hard to really quantify this stuff. But what we have the qualify really show is pretty strikingly similar results. So why I say I would, I would have a hard time being convinced that bull is wound any more on a percentage basis than rifles. Handful of thoughts. In keeping with today's political atmosphere, I'm just gonna ignore the data, okay, and just go with what I know is. I'm just gonna go what I know is right. Um. But I had, yeah, a couple of things. One is, this isn't this is not to me, this is not a moral argument, Okay, Like to me, the UM, I think each person strives to well damn sure better strive to be is effective and human and as efficient as possible. UM. And I think that when you go into the woods, no matter like how high your skill set and how good your intentions, there's always the chance that something can go wrong, and it will if you stick at it long enough, and you'll hit something that you don't find it just it just happens. So by saying that one is more or less effect one method of hunting, you know, we could even break out crossbows and break out trad archery and break out um, you know, conventional archery, tackle and break out firearms. UM. No matter how much you break it down and start comparing them to me. It's not like you're not like trying to find a value judgment. You're You're not looking for like who's right, who's correct, and who's incorrect, who's right and who's wrong. I'm not chasing after that. So it makes it that the discussion, Um yeah, it's an acade. It's more it's almost an academic subject, I think. But it can and inform things I am generally. That's one thought. Another thought is I'm generally leery of and like just anecdotal stuff. Okay, but in a case like this, I have so much anecdotal evidence gathered over such a long period of time where I'm able to rule out the inherent errors of self reporting. We're just from experiences and the experiences of people who I'm very close with and I understand their skill sets. Um, I, you haven't changed my opinion. I feel that if you take something like like you take something like ELK, Okay, take something like ELK. I think that there is a much higher rate of wound loss. And this is informed by personal opinion as well as opinion of many other people. There's a much higher rate of wound loss on ELK with archery equipment than there is the firearm equip equipment. It's like I've just I know, I just know as bad as that sounds, well, and I'm not telling you what to do with that. I'll not tell anybody what to do with that piece of information. But it's the thing. It's like a debate that comes up all the time. But here's the thing. My part number three this and then then it's yours again. Part number three is we don't know the mortality question. Okay. At one time found I was out on a backpacking trip, well Lama backpacking, you know, backpacking with Lama trip in the summertime and the Idaho Panhandle, and I lost my spoon and found an elk carcass or elk skeleton, and was trying to figure out what bone would be most suitable to craft a new spoon out of that I could reach into a freeze dry bag with. And I started looking at the thoracic process on the vertebra, and I thought, damn, it looks like a great spoon. So I picked up one of the vertebra to be like the one they had the longest rascic process, So the one that's kind of like above the animals hump and lo and behold embedded within the bone. The bone entirely healed around it is a muzzy broadhead. Their slogan is bad to the bone. I put pictures of this up on We'll put a picture up in the show notes. But so here's the thing growing around it. Now, the guy that shot that arrow maybe would would probably be surprised to learn that that thing took the hit somehow. The arrow shaft unthreaded because it was just a naked broadhead, no piece of shaft on it unthreaded. The elk heeled around the broadhead. And I know that died in the winter because they had dropped it was it died with dropped andlers. So however long it takes to calcify, like to completely encase a broadhead and calcified bone on your vertebra, that guy might think, oh, he might be all depressed still about that bully killed and couldn't find when it wasn't dead. So that's the other thing is when we talk about wound loss, we're just saying, like, you didn't find it. But what we don't know is what's lethal and what's not lethal. So that matters to me. But what you just the story just told, isn't that a Pro Bowl? Pro Bowl? If you take a pro on kan No, don't look at it is either. I'm just saying. What I'm saying is in sussing out the answer which I'm interested what I was trying to build up there one is one. Nothing says can't change in my mind. That was playing one too. It doesn't really matter except for just it's good. I just like to know stuff I'm not. I'm not gonna like go and make like like well, if I was like a ruler of the world and I had all the answers in front of me, I wouldn't like go and make a decision around except for except for in cases like, for instance, when you're there's some bare units in Alaska where when you wound a bear, you not your tag. That kind of thing I'm generally in favor of. I'm open to that and in favor of that in places you wound the animal, you're not your tag. But that leads again into point three, because that's under the assumption that you've removed an animal. And what we don't know in this is it's hard to tell. It's hard to tell it's hard to study the survival rates. So you fire an narrow what you get a hit. You trail the blood, there's no blood. You start cutting circles. You come back the next day, cut a million circles. Can't find blood. Your body can't find blood. He brings out his fail safe dog. The dog can't find anything. Um, it's a dead or not. So that was That was the part Three is like, you still don't know even when you know. And the thing I gonna say is that I fully agree with you on the idea that this is not a moral discussion. I've always The other thing I should have said too, I could have prefaced it with, is that we're the only predator with the conscience. Yeah. Yeah, We're the only predator that tries to make a science out of how we go about the stuff. We really try to figure out what's the best freaking way to kill that deer every damn time, you know, down dead. And because I think, well, when a hawk hits a rabbit, I've been on hawk hunts and it's pretty pretty fascinating. They're pretty good. But they have wounding loss. Brothers have wounding loss. So I will I will never get into this right or wrong discussion is I think that that means bullshit is part of the part of the equation. It's just I think hunting is we're the only ones that worry about it as humans. So but one of the things I'll say more thinking real quick, and then Doug say something because dogs dogs waiting to go here. Um. The thing I would say that about about the story with the errow wound. One thing that I think we can say from some of the research too, is that a deer that's wounded with a bow and arrow is much more likely to survive the wound, and and and go on. And it might not be it's not nice, it's not pleasant. I'm sure to carry a broad head around in your spinal column or and your shoulder blade or leg bones, yeah, I mean, but humans have done too. And so I'm saying Jim Bridger carried carried arrowhead around his back. I think about your dad. Your dad walked around how many years with pellets and his Yes, so it happens, and it's not I'm not excusing it, but I'm saying this, this stuff happens. And another story, remember um from Hunted on Duck's Place first time, you and I met was um Tyson having a bad shot on a deer. And it was a shot that if you made that shot with a bow and arrow, that deer would have been healed up and pry a couple of days and gone on never never look back. Whereas it was. It was a high hit in the back and the meat of the back. And I remember those hair everywhere on the impact area and Steve, yeah, never a good sign. And Steve went down, went after it and caught up with it and finished it off. And so I think if you look at that way. One of the things that came out of that that UM Naval Naval Station, Naval Weapons Station and study with the born arrow is that they figured that the deer that were they knew weren't recovered, then their wounded but not recovered was bought. They figured about six percent of those went on to have normal lives and just continued on with her six six percent of the deer that that that they could not recover the newer hit but not recovered. And then they compared that with um the deer are hit by motor vehicles on that base, and that was more like an eleven percent. UM died whereas my six percent of the born arrow ones died or that go ahead, six, I think I have gotten that reversed. I think reverse put on basically more you're more deer, more like to die when they're hit by a car than they were by a bow and arrow when they were all you know, in the row and moving around that it was only like six percent of the ones that were hit by bow and arrow died and love and percent hit by cars died. Yeah, So I think I got right now, Um, all the ones that were hit but not recovered, other ones that are still ones that were probably definitely ones that were hit not recovered and died from the wound. But that happens to you raise your hand about man, There's so many things, and it was the first one is well, we know guns kill more. Is a more effective way of killing deer than bows are maybe not well yeah, on an individual basis, because we kill way more deer in a much shorter time way, more people doing it, yeah, more more people doing it in greater range, and more shots. Uh. Well, um, I know you're right about dear um going on with arrows, and because over the years I've killed at least a half a dozen of the rifle that are carrying a that I've got a wound from a bow or have an arrow in them or whatever. Um, And those were I guess those were that. There was another point, but I don't remember what it was now because you went off on another thing that that it was trailing. No. Yeah, well of course it was your fault. Uh oh, I know what it was. It's interesting to me, uh the comparison. One of the things about bows and you're talking about vertical bows. I think because one of the arguments now that I'm hearing against crossbows from some vertical bow people is these guys are taking shots that they shouldn't take and their wounded deer and it's sort of like the opposite argument of gone you know some gone hunters um and and vertical bows, you know, wounding and um and that sort of thing. So it's just it's it's just interesting how all these things, to me, you know, melt together and then you make your own choices on it. And I'm that that cross bowl lingo now to say vertical bows, Yeah, it's the cross vertical sure, because in Wisconsin to keep fighting about it, so they kind of find a way to distinguish the two. So they would say bows and cross bows vertical bows come on, Doug crossbow, vertical bow, and and it's a it's a thing. I just feel that that word came from the crossbow community. It didn't come from the bow community. No, it's from a clarific well yeah, I don't know whither, but it just it is. It's important to clarify because otherwise, yeah, bow bow, right, but a bow versus across I mean a crossbows a bowl. Well that's that's not that yeah, podcast yeah, yeah, And the thing I think i'd say there too though in the in the some Naval Weapons Station research they looked at crossbows too, and it wasn't I think. I think they actually they came out a little bit better on that. And one of the more fast thing parts of that study was that the UM expandable broad has actually performed better than the standard UM injection or you know where you put your blades and like fixed blade, Well then I've totally your fixed plade because fixed blade my mind is still the ones you're sharpen yourself. Replaceabule blades, yeah, have replace full blades. I still like replaceable blades because I don't like the the questioning and the worrying about, well that thing open the way it's supposed to. But in the study that did in Maryland that those actually came out came up better for um, more more effective overall, expandable expandables did. And I think that's one of the things that I know. That's one of the things they say about shooting the crossbow is to use an expandable blade. Yeah, and then then you get into a make sure they don't fly open when they get shot down in the bowl because it's such an explosion coming all those things compared to irregular bowl. But um, just the air resistance well if plus it's such a hard impact coming out, like those are hundred sixty five pound of you know draw weights are she those those arrows out so um but see like and seeing like getting back to the elk point of view, that's where you and I still want a greekause I think, well, I've seen guys out in the west is real flyers on elk you know, long Helvish long ways, and I think you started to change my mind. Damn with those guys. They're hitting these big these these are big animals and they can God, they can take a polling and nunny and show you know. And but you know, I like the fact that, at least in our modern era of hunting, that we're talking about these things and trying to figure out what's what's ethical, what's an ethical shot? And one of the things I had fun though that Deering Deering magazine back the nineties, we actually did a poll on this, trying to figure out from our readers, you know, what's what's um an effective range for the bow and arrow in your mind? What what's what do you feel comfortable shooting at? And the thing that was always interesting was that everyone's just perfectly conscientious ethical hunter. When that deer is at less than forty yards of the bow and arrow and less than let's say yards of the rifle, she just started putting the big antlers on him, the leads in the air problem. And so I always think, well, you know, I brought a couple of quotes here that where we like to think for making progress in our our approach on i'll be you know, on shot selection. And you know, Steve Steele Prian know this one who who wrote this. It is a good rule always to try to get as near the game as possible. At the same time, I am a great believer in Poulter burning, and if I cannot get near, I will generally try a shot anyhow, if there's any chance the rifle curing it to it. Janny O'Connor anyone. I guess Leopold, but not Leopold. I got I got. I got that one too. That's my next quote. Who would be left? I don't know, elmur Keith, Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy Roosevelt big believer in powder burns hot. But he was from that. He was from that well was of just getting the let out and the idea that well, if you don't shoot, you certainly won't get it. Horn Today too when you read about horn Today's expeditions, because when he's doing museum collecting still he's like he's museum collecting, but they would just kind of get where they're in the ballpark and everybody just starts a cracking. Yeah, there's something to be said, I think right now in this conversation about the sake of being of getting close to just being a percent on your shot, not because of the ethics, but because you want to be efficient and just be a good hunter, and even though there's like say giant antlers, right, but if you're a poor hunter, that's I think when you're like, I'm gonna let him fly because this is my one opportunity. I think if you've achieved a certain level of hunting prowess, you will say it is too far. Either I will get closer now so that I know a percent when I shoot, I'm gonna kill that thing, or I will let it back walk and I will return tomorrow and you know, change my position, my tactics or whatever to get closer. You know what I mean. I think, And there's a certain point where hunters, you know, don't just let lead fly because you know whatever ethics out the window. Like you said, we're the only ones to think about that. If you're just trying to be like the best hunter out there, at some point you're just gonna say no to be successful, I can't shoot right now. Yeah, I think there's there's an element of ethics, there's an element of aesthetics, there's an element of pragmatism being then uh, I would like, yeah, if I like to think that it bothers most people that you would cripple some umping up and not find it, so you want to be eliminating that. Um, any self respecting person right wants to be good at what they do, and they put their mind to something and become good at it. A strong mark or of you not being good at it is that you wound stuff and it runs off when you're supposed to be killing it. And then pragmatism is like, you want to get the thing. So if you're looking at man, I could take a poke at five yards of my rifle. I don't know if I'll get it or not. Um, I'm gonna get to where I know I'm gonna get this thing, and I know damn sure I'm gonna kill it it too. But it takes a level of experience to be able to in that moment make that decision, make all those decisions. I think when people let the flyers go, when people to start blouching for no reason, is when uh, they probably can't see their way through to getting closer. Maybe perhaps well another quote I wanted to share with you guys. Um, this is from but the same era a little bit later. But one large white tail looked at me at seventy yards. He jumped at the flesh of my bowl, my arrow stuck in the ground on a second jump. If he had stood still, I would have hit him in the neck. This is this is written Leopold. Yeah, seventy yards seven yards. He took a poke at a hundred yards yeah, and so like that archery well see, and so that's that's the thing I I'm not. I'm not taking cheap shots at these two guys because I think we had these discussions on all the host and I've talked about in Doug's backyard. Um, I know they're a guy. I know my my kickabilities. I know at sixty yards of bow and arrow, I start falling apart. Some days I'll be out there. I can drop him in pretty nice at sixty yards. Next day I can't. So I know that's not for me a realistic range. But I do know guys who can time in and time out nail a hundred yards shots the bow and arrow. But I still will always say you're still coming on that dear to be stand there and assuming if a wide open shot, well that aero arcs and like I don't know what it is on a compound bow today is shooting a seventy five pounding cross compound bowl. But I do know on the cross bowl I saw it there to day, were at a hundred yards. A typical cross bowl has to arc at above the site plane to drop it into the hundred yards. Not think this guy is making a his Aultland just claims about how accurate those cross bowls are. I think, I don't know. I just have a hard time believing most guys using the cross bowl can get those kind of shots to drop in there, and and and learned really quickly that's not realistic, because I think we Steve and I had a little conversation, just a quick question. I think Steve got back to me out. But I get I get fascinated with lk hunting because I think I when I've been elkinning, I can see where you'd have more winning loss than what I have gotten used to hunting deer from a tree stand because hunting deer from a tree standard typically getting them in their tight quarters. And I think nothing, very very few things I've ever killed go down faster than I h a broad head through the lungs at twenty yards. I mean, that's just deadly effective. But I think when I started elk hunting back in two thousand five. With the ball and arrow, nothing is nothing is fixed. You know, you get used that tree stand situation where you can control your shots, and control with that rena shoot all those kind of things. You can start controlling a little bit. These through discipline. Doesn't happen with all hunting. It's happening fast. You're you're on your ground, you're at eye level, wind changes, there's everything is. This is making changes fast. And I realized this is tough ship. This is a lot harder than anything I've ever done in the white tail woods. That's where I start thinking. I last year I killed my first from a tree stand and I and I almost felt like cheating because it was so much easier to control that shot than that was when I was on the ground at eye level trying to pick a spot to the brush on an animal that you're waiting for the coming to a spot where you can stop it quick, get the shot off. I think, what were you set up on? I was on a wallow early seasons, like the fourth day of the season is Labor Day weekend National Forest. Yeah, And and that got me thinking though, that what time that bull show up? I think I shot him around six o'clock and evening, six o'clock evening came in the wall. Ye, he just stood there perfectly, um, not quite broadside, but he has turned a little bit, give me a perfect right down the pipe, you know. And then and then he he jumped up, went up the hill about forty yards and down was that wallow. When he found that wallow wasn't muddied up, um a little bit, but was interesting. This is one of the fastest things I loved about that experience was that he never actually made to the wallow itself. He stopped me in fifteen years of pill and this little just muddy, little bitty seepage type stuff coming up, and he sat through those nose right down the mud and you can just hear them sucking the water out there, a little little bitty rivulets coming down that mountain side, and it was just fastening as hell. And then he just stand and look around and his face me the whole time. And finally he has turned a little bit game the open, you know, side shot and I but compared to hunting off the ground, I said, almost felt like God. And then I actually had guys, Well, yeah, here's the problem. Yeah, go ahead, there is no problem because it might have felt easy, but look at the mana. I mean, you did a good bit of woodsmanship to get in the situation. Definitely went out identified an active wallow. Make no mistake, I do not feel guilty. I mean, I mean I say that, I say it felt like, oh jeez, that was so easy. But but I know, damn well it wasn't, because that was like twelve years in the making, you know, you know, to get that where I actually foster, but you could actually feel confident putting a tree stand up and going to trouble putting a tree stand up on this area we hunt. It's kind of I didn't didn't think about in most cases, just such a waste of time. You know, elk are so unpredictable to moving here and there and pure he found one. Oh you'll see nothing. It's like this. You know, it's possible there's no elk within two miles, yeah, three miles. And and so I just find all those kind of discussions of a shot selection, how you do set up so that kind of stuff interesting, and then I get then you get into the thing you're talking about with like that that bowl walking around with the arrow wound you think, well, was he really suffering the whole time or not? I mean that thing wound heal over and how much? I mean, I can't feel good. But then you read some of the researchman's done on humans and how humans react, you know, like soldiers in battle, and there's just some really fastening research from Anzio or your dad served where they this doctor was keeping notes on these guys that were wounded, you know, how much how much pain are you in? And they found a lot cases that, um, excuse me, these guys had just awful wounds and they barely felt it because it wasn't a shock because he could talk to these guys, ask them, what are you feeling doing this kind of stuff? But it was not the kind of bad pain that you'd expect. And then um, they learned too that snize guys who were mad at who just just wild with um apparent pain they could come down with with a with a drug to make them sleepy basically, and and what that's what they started to I started to think and figure out what it wasn't so much the pain that was was hard on these guys. It was the anguish, the thread that what they're like, you know, the Clint Eastwood movie. Um, young forgiven. You know, a hell of a thing killing man, You're taking way all of your head and all even will have. And humans understand that, you know, they're eighteen years old, knowing that this is probably gona kill them, and they're just it has to be just devastating to them. So that's where I always trying to balance all the stuff as I'm hunting, thinking, let's not let's not tire ourselves some knots over this. You know, we want to be good, ealthical hunters, but let's realize that the wilds is a tough place to live and these animals suffer loss stuff that, you know, but humans due too, humans awful tough too. So I don't know, I find a lot of stuff that fascinating. Pick up the tree stand thing because you later had an interaction with someone about your tree STANDLK. Yeah, so I so I. One of the reasons I emailed Steve was, um, this guy um writes back to me, and he actually says to me he tried to make feel a little bit guilty about using a tree stand to kill an elk. And he says to me, well, what do you think Steve Rinella would think, and I don't know well, but but my first reaction was, well, I don't claim to know Steve as well as I know um other friends in my life. But I think Renal strikes me as a practical guy that if you put your time in and you find a find a good spot and you I'll hunt it that way, go for it. Yeah, dude, I'm my brother has he's got an idea of the Hunt Purity Score. Okay, So it allows like, uh, it allows you to to have many to to to factor in many different variables just to then arrive at a fixed score. And you can have twenty inputs and do a Hunt Purity score. So when I run your situation through my hunt, my personal Hunt Purity Score calculator unguided. Okay, So you're just out there, dude, out there on his own, not relying on a guide because you have a guy to like, Oh, yeah, I killed it. We bagle to bowl in and shot him. But the guy did everything and he probably have shot the thing better than you did too. You were, if anything, you were a hindrance on the whole process. Right, there was a trigger man. So that's not the ace Okay, not that you can't. Still you could have a guy and still score a great hunt purity scored as you put in all the factors that go into a hunt purity score. A right, it's not it's like just one of what what's your problem? Do you give me the Latvian smirk? No, I'm just enjoying this score, if there was such a thing, So and each each and each to his own right. So when I'm running Pat Durkins, when I'm when I'm giving a hunt purity score to Pat Durkins, tree stand out come. This is what I'm thinking about self guided public land, public land. Not that you can't have a great hunt purity scoring in private land. Done a lot of it myself, But in the Hunt Purity score calculator that scores high because here you are dealing with a lot of competition, things outside of your control. So it's it's like an added difficulty, right, Um, a little bit of woodsmanship. There's a lot of wabbles, I'll there. There are more wallows out there that are not going to be visited by a bull tonight than there are wallows. What the hell you've smirked about, Doug Man? I feel like you need to keep my face down and us there are more wallows. There are more walls in the woods that what was the date he killed bull, September? September four, Okay, there are more September four. Go to the state Pat was in and go have a monitor, get a volunteer to sit on every single wallow in that state, and more than than than there's gonna be more people whose wallow doesn't get hit by an elk that night than does. Definitely, So he had to pick the pick the right wallow. Here he is self guided in a place you hunted a little bit, finds a wallow, determined that this is the this is where I'm gonna stake my claim. Presumably you had to tote that tree stand through a lot of uncomfortable to areas on a hot day. So there's your hunt purity score climbs up. Now you had to pick where you're gonna hang this stand factor and in wind, not just wind, but how the wind is going to change as the thermal shift, as the air starts to cool, as the sun begins to set. So Pats running all this ship in his head as his hunt purity score climbs, like I just like nowhere in it. There's nowhere in it where I'm looking. I'm like, man, that's a real shrinker, a real hunt purity score shrinker. The bow and arrow gives it a higher hunt purity score, and my personal estimation that gives it a higher hunt purity score than if it were versus a higher hunt when he made your own arrows and napt your own heads, higher hunt purity score, many things. Going to a hut you could have. You could make your own bow, make your own string, make your own arrow shafts, nap your own head. You are you make your own hunting clothes, find a road kill turkey, make your own fletching, and still have a real low hunt purity score depending on the other inputs. So that in and of itself, right, But like the hunt you're describing to me is has is very pure. Yeah, I like the sounds of it. Thank you, so we ourselves. It was a great story to read too. I really enjoyed those those columns about it. Yeah, it was great. And and you kept your nerves because you know what, Oftentimes when something's coming in you don't get calmer, No, not especially not. Sometimes it's almost beneficial to have something happened fast. And this one actually played over about five minutes. Where he came in, I thought I was gon nail him right away, and then he came in, came right too many straight on shooting turns and walks right street at me, and then I had let down twice. And it's just a fun experience. You know, everything I factor in. A lot of people probably don't, but I do. Whether it was aware of you or not, Yeah, he had no ideas there. That counts a lot in my personal hunt periody calculator set up. I'm interested about the tree stands set up relative to the wall of downhill because you're playing a downhill thermal. No, you know, I I looked into everything around that figure out where where I could put up a stand and have a decent chance, and I end up having to go up a pill from that wall, and knowing that as the thermal start dropping, if anything's coming down from blow, I'm not gonna have a chance. It'll just be going down. And that was my fear, is that yes, they come from down hill where I think they come from most likely, or all I could hope is be up on the sidehill more or across the way more and filter through that area. But the thing is too, I sometimes I when I'm hunting white tails too, snow situations, you can't always predict for there to come from. You think you can, but then and then case the bull came exactly from where I did not expect him. He was uphill from me, and I heard a twig snap and then he look up and here's this bull ship. There's a bull. And I haven't had book fever like that in a long time, where even though I've been el cunning a lot and had a lot of vin corners, that one that's really had me jacked up. And then by the time I got right, I could shoot. Though I was, I wasn't calm. I mean that hurts till hammering, but it was. I will always make a point like a trade show, as if I see like um I've seen like Tiffany Lakowski makes some hell of hell of good shots on Dear Cariboo and elk and I walked up to me one time and I said, you know, I know you take a lot of ship from people because you know, she's a pretty young, pretty girl, blonde girl. I think sometimes she um comes across dits it to some people. But you watch some of the shots that girls made on TV, and I think that girl's got some blood, some real ice veins where because I've seen guys blow those kind of shots. Yeah, And I so I respect that because I think that the pull off a show like that, especially the camera over your back and along with on on you know, basically what's what's at stake here and you're on make a big investment on hunt likes that and the time involved then you pulled off. I mean that's commendable. I respect that because I know I've I've blown those kind of shots. I mean who hasn't. And so anyway, so like I made that shot that night and that boll piled up, like you know, forty yards away. I watched the whole thing. Damn. I felt good. Yeah, and those kind of moments just you know, I think that's why we're out here and I'll never That's why I said that. I made the comment that I um felt a little guiltycause it seems so easy. But I think it's not really guilty, just that you know, it's not really easy. You know, you know better, you know how hard to get those shots and no get those situations that work out and how many situations don't work out? Oh yeah, when you're out there just getting ground down by this stuations that don't work out. When something does work really good, it's almost like you feel like you've stepped into like you walked into a hallucination, that you're hallucinating that it worked. It's that surprising you, Like I actually just got close to that elk and ran an arrow through its lungs and it fell over dead. It's more plausible that I'm hallucinating right now than that just happened. Um, we've been talking about thermals. I want to explain it because I feel like some people might not get we're talking about so when you're thribles happen when you're in it. I mean you can, you can have thermals without topography, but I think you kind of bank on and in mountainous country is that you know, warm air rises. So I'm not telling you this, pound just telling Joe blow out. There. Warm air rises. So in the morning, when the sun starts to come up and the day starts to heat up, you're generally gonna wind up having uphill winds. And then in the evening, the sunsets and the air cools you're gonna have, you know, it's gonna switch. Sometimes we will get set up where we're gonna do a stock on an animal, and you'll just sit around and wait, depending on where it is and the best approach, you'll sit around and wait for when the thermal shift, because you'll know that at some point today. I know that like at whatever time, you know, whatever time it happened the night before or whenever the evening sets on, that the wind's gonna shift, possibly to the point that it overrides the normal predominant wind direction. But sometimes you just have like so much wind, if there's a weather pattern moving through or whatever, you can have so much wind that that sort of natural wind, not natural less with the right word for it, but just that that general wind direction conspires with the thermals to just make swirling air, which is very frustrating when it's not up or down. It's just everywhere we live and die had by the thermals. When I got it in Colorado and a particular spot which was kind of a good example of the morning hunt because in the morning to usually have a downhill thermal, you know, just because it's like, you know, it's like the coldest rite at sunrise or whatever, thirty minutes before sunrise, it's you know, the coldest part maybe, So you got that downhill thermal. But we had this knob that you could kind of sit on, and it was I don't know, at least a thousand feet down to this hay field, and these elk would be out in this hay field, you know, and we actually couldn't hunt out there, so which is one of the reasons we hadn't just you know, gone and ambushed him down there. But they would be coming towards us, you know, as it got light and coming up onto that hill. But thermals like right at your back, so you have to sit there and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait, and they'd be screaming and ripping, and you're just like sitting there with your puffer just watching it, watching it and just hoping for the day to warm up before they quit muglin. And so many times, I mean you'd wait sometimes still eight thirty nine, I mean, even sitting up there for two plus hours, and then finally you just like you start feeling that constant you know, uphill thermal, and we would just bail off that hill, you know, trying not to break a leg as we ran down in there, you know, and then we'll start calling. But you mentioned that some place that have so much wind that when I went to the guy in North Park for a year, it's just a windy part of Colorado, like up there by Walden. And I remember like halfway through the elk season being like, I seriously haven't used my wind chapter or thought about a thermal for a month because it was just constant, like every day You're just like, oh, the winds out of the east. It's gonna be out of the east all day. You know. We never thought about thermal's there. I'll tell another good thermal's trick is a creek. Well, you know, a creek one of the daytime cool the air above it, and you could have a wind direction going some direction or another. You dropped down into a creek bed and you'll find that it's a down wind that there's a strong down wind current created by that water. And you can creep up creek beds or streams that are flowing and be the whole time in nose hitting you like wind hitting you in the face as you go upstream, even though the wind is different, hunted yards up the hill. I was once creeping up a creek on the north side of it in the timber, probably a foot to eighteen inches of snow, powdery snow salent as convening. I'm probably fifty yards above the bottom of the creek and we're trying to catch up these elk there feeding in the quakies on the south facing slope, pretty narrow canyon, and we're working our way up and we get to the elk. We get all the way so we're exactly um, you know, parallel to them, and I'm feeling the wind and got just a nice downhill thermal and we're just like there's no clear shots, but just like twenty cows uf there and we're just waiting for a good shot. And all of a sudden, I see a couple of noses pop up, you know. I'm like, what, there's no way, you know. I'm like, it is like we're freezing here. I can just feel it going down towards the creek, and eventually they bust. Three years later, but I think we killed a cow. But I think what actually happen is that the third will came down, pushed our scent to the creek bottom, and then instead of just keeping flowing down the creek, it must have just gotten onto that warm hillside and the sun was hitting the south face, and and it carried it up right to him. I mean, yeah, you will sometimes have stuff with you or you just can't understand how it with you, and it's yeah, stuff like that probably and even argues, well, I'll be like who moved? Who moved? Someone moved the spot I still have done were like Bob full Cross, you student demonstrations with with air currents where you use a smoke bomb and you know to shoal when you think it's going this way, like, well it goes that way for a while, and then it just churched, moving moving off again. Hard hard to play that stuff. Pet, tell me why the old time traditional deer camps are disappearing. That's been one that I've you know, being the settlement of sap I am. I always think that's how how deer hunting should be. Were you pulling into a camp for basically the whole nine day season like they used to do. You know in Wisconsin used to take trains up north and what's happened is that, um, we made travel. I think a big factors. There's many factors, of course, but one of the big factors is that travel is so convenient. You can now hop in your car anywhere in Wisconsin, basically up north in five hours, and then you can be back home Sunday evening really easily. It's not not a big trip anymore. Even when I was a kid in the seventies going deer hunting, Wohane highways going north and Wisconsin we're all two lane highways, and so the trip up north was it was kind of endurance thing. You just kind of staying right along and those two lane highways, waiting to pass people all time, and just so when you got up there, you're in no hurry to come back. You want to stay up there. And you think, well, if that's how it was in the seventies, can you imagine what it was like back in the fourties and fifties where guys would have to drive up there and not always be able to even get down in the road to their camp. You know, they had to get neighbor to get a tractor and take them down and haul them in. And so I think that's a big factor that you know, in our our society we have now with a great transportation, really reliable vehicles, people just don't have to go and spend that kind of time in the camp. And then you have the other factors going on in recent decades, is that, well, the old guys um it was worth going up north in northern Wisconsin, othern Michigan and in the Minnesota because uh, there's a good deer hunting. It was gotten tougher. You know, the forest matured, and we have always factors like that. We're you know that things made dear. And then we'll look at the case of our very own dog, Dere exactly, Doug, when when when correct me? If I'm wrong, Doug, you certainly will. Dog was a boy, his old man went to northern deer camp. That's right around the farm. If you saw a deer, you talked about it. That's right, You're like, holy ship, we saw a deer, and everyone for deer season drove up. Now you got how many deer for square whatever more than for square mile of habitat, and how and what's the what's the what's the stocking or the ratio of deer per unit of land in the north was much lower. Yeah, I mean, so the deer came to you. You don't need to go to the deer. I'm a deer magnet. Lost to me. You guys were done at Dougs in two thousand and fifteen. I think it was right gun season. Um. I killed a nice buck that year, done about ten miles from Doug's place and my uncle's farm. And the only reason I'm telling that is because when I drove over to the text or to get get um that the lymphing was taken out for the CWD testing, I missed the turn, couldn't find the place, and I stopped a hunter on the road who was just getting ready to walk down into this field. I got talking to him. Well, he's from Hayward, Wisconsin, which is way up north. And the reason he's done in Doug's backyard basically because the deer hunting up in Hayward sucks all the way. Yeah, that the hunt of public piece of property over in the Bear Valley. Uh. And and then that's what's happened, you know, between that switching the habitat where the habitat don install in Wisconsin favors a deer more than up north, and you have it's it's you know, the guys you still hunt up there, they typically aren't going in for um five days. Thanksgiving used to be a real thing where you'd go up there and you arrive our Friday before a gun season, set up camp and you won't come back till the following weekend or Sunday night. And people are logging the north with much much more logging, much more logging back then. Now the logging isn't isn't keeping up with the forest maturations. So the forests keep getting older and older and older, and leus deer habitat and and so I've never surprised all those things. Actor And if there was good dear, if deer thriving grows easy thriving, you know, and those areas are just tough for now. So I think those those two factors that can probably the biggest reasons. And plus I think there's just a lot of people just don't like having um a far away camp to take care of you. There's a lot of maintenance on on any kind of building once you once you put up building on a land three miles away. Yeah, I've pat there a lot taking care of it, and people I think, people like my generation, at least me, I don't care to take be taking care of stuff all time. I just you know, show up someplace and I sleep all that I know to sleep on the back of my truck, then maintain a shack year round, you know. For deer hunting. That's this way I am well. And hunting has changed too, I mean, you know the increase in bow hunting and um, you know up north, down by us whatever, and there's a I mean there's always that talk about the loss of um more of loss of deer hunters, fewer deer licenses being sold, but yeah, there's an increase in bowl licenses. So it's just changing and the style of hunting is changing, and yeah, there's no you don't do the community deer drives like we used to do, and that used to be a big thing up north. Used to drive along those those rural roads in Building Wisconsin seed lines of people lined up waiting to go in and do a big push. And just you know, we just don't hunt that way much anymore. But you lament it, oh, I do, just because I I think there was a cool time and I um, I still do a series um going out in was ten years now, where I travel around the different parts of the country and visit deer camps because I think I'd like to document while it's still around. You know, it's the Wisconsin to the Minnesota, go down Salt, visit some third deer camps, because even down there is not not that easy to maintain those traditions for a long for a long time, you know, you know, to go generation after generation and maintain the hunting interest. I excuse my my own family as an example. I think, well, my dad hunted a little bit just to get me going, but he dropped off. You know, by the time I was coming along where he was, he wasn't active hunting anymore. But out of my four brothers, but me and my three brothers, I'm the only one that hunts. And I think a lot of people in our generation just don't don't have the interest and that I look at our hunter demographics and that's not looking all that great for the future. So you think that's a part of Americana that's kind of slipping away on us in some areas. And some areas, yeah, and I think like in the you know, in the Midwest, the old idea that you had these sort of unsettled wild lands in the north, like we grew up. It's just like a thing you heard all the time up north, up north, like everyone went Like in Michigan, you didn't do any cross movement. You didn't know like east west movement. All movement was was north south. He's like, drove that direction. If you wanted to get into something, you drove north. You wanted to get into something good, you drove south. To get back home, eyes were always to the north. And the first time when I left home, I went north whatever hundred miles, hundreds of miles and set up shop up there. Uh. One last question for you, you uh we're putting to me, is it is it socially acceptable, morally acceptable to schedule wedding on opening weekend of deer season. Yeah. And and my take being a being the Wisconsin chauvinist I am, and knowing that Wisconsin deer hunting the deer season, everyone knows. Everyone knows when deer season in Wisconsin. And if you don't know, you're really really I have to wonder about how can you not be learned? Yeah, this is a this is a big thing in Wisconsin, you cannot miss all the blaze orange going usually north, even though you know people going to eastern West too, but there's you cannot you cannot miss all the blaze orange and the role before our gun season opens. And then think just at work, how many people get around and work we're talking about deer hunting. Husband's going deer hunting, girl girlfriends going with their boyfriends, that kind of stuff. And so I think, when you know this is this, this is a once of your event. Pretty much most people have in Wisconsin. Wade my my my friend Tom Herberline always had the comment and his research on um hunters in Wisconsin that in Wisconsin you're either either are a deer hunter or sleeping with a deer hunter because in he mean just in one bad be throughout the household, there's there's always someone in the house who hunts. So I think, having all that of wearing a stuff deer hunting, especially a gun season, how can you possibly justify having a wedding opening week in a gun season. You know, you can affect the lives a lot of people who are either going to skip your wedding or or really really resentful that you dragged them out of the woods for your wedding. That you could have scheduled that fifty one other weekend? Why why why would you do that? And there's there's a reason I got married in mid July. Yeah, well I think that's I think personally, that's respectful other people's time. And I haven't screwed up. I haven't yet screwed up majorly. On children's birthdates. I got one May nine in there. That is difficult. It's difficult, but none of them were uh by by planning that one. We were pretty much planning out And I'm like, at least it wasn't the fault. I got a May nine in in there, and his mother likes him to be around home on his birthday. His mother doesn't want to be off doing whatever. Um, I want to be there. It's just it's that that wasn't great. It wasn't great, but it wasn't horrible. There might come a time though, where he gets to make that decision to say, you know what, I'd really like to be out at Uncle Doug's turkey hunt on my birthday. Let's we got the conversation this year, we're gonna go turkey hunt. But it's like in my family didn't come for me and my family and the powers that be within that family. There seems to be this thing where everyone's all together on birthdays. Yeah, so it's like the calendar starts to get really crowded. Hold your thought, Dug. The calendar starts to get really crowded when you have like I do. I have three kids, So there's three days. You only got three sixty five days out of year. There's three of them. You get a uh spouse birthday and the anniversary, handful of religious holidays. It's like, if I could do it all over again, I just gotten married on Christmas and then married a girl who was born on Find a girl. Yeah, find a girl's like birthdays around Christmas, get married on Christmas, and then try to impregnate her routinely in nine months for Christmas, Doug, you have a family story about this. I have three things that come to mind about one. My uncle, Ralph Zelinski, who was one of my dad's hunting buddies up north when he used to go up north. And the guy who I first heard the word mooching from, got married on Opening weekend. My dad never forgave him. Ralph is now ninety three years old. My dad's dad. My dad went with grave still piste off about that. Uh, why why did you get married an opening weekend? I think it was a power thing with I shouldn't say because they're both still alive and they might listen to this. I don't know. I don't know why. What the hell? That's all my dad's What the hell's the matter with him? That's all my dad said. Uh. Last year, my nephew, Sam, who you all know has and I'm happy to say his name, uh, had a new girlfriend. They've been going out for about three or four months, and he calls me up about three weeks before opening weekend. He goes, hey, uncle, so I'm not gonna be there opening weekend, and I said why not? He goes, well, Carra's family has a wedding Countain, New Jersey, and I said I'd go along. And I didn't realize it was opening weekend. But now I committed to that's so I gotta go. I said, kid, there's two things wrong with that. The first one is chances are a year from now she's not gonna be your girlfriend. So you just gave up an opening weekend for somebody you're not you're no longer with or you are still together. You get married, and you said all. Uh, I've seen a lot of guys really screw themselves in the in the courtship phase by giving up liberties that they think they're gonna somehow get back later. You need to. I tell people, I don't care if you need to drive down the road and sleep in a car act like you have shipped to do when he started dating someone, just to set the scene. Yeah, but you haven't told the story I wanted to tell, which one was at about, didn't your old man? Oh? Oh, my brother, So my mom's my mom is pregnant and the do date. And there wasn't a whole lot of planning from what I could tell when when we were conceived. Uh, And my my dad was just a you know, I loved going up north and deer hunting. And as it happened, my brother is do like right at the end of you know, that third week in November, and my father started telling my mom there had that kid November two. He was born November second, two weeks later, Dad's going north. One of my old newspaper buddies back in there. This is the early eighties, paying and I started our family. Our firstborn, Leah was born in January of and so she she we we planned it, you know, we made sure that we didn't stir at all this stuff until we could, you know, and penning up pregnant right away. So it was January for Leah. Ellie came along in July. The only one became close to missing on was Carson, our our youngest, and she was born right before she was born September twelve. And this and this is before I was like this, before I was elk hunting, and so this is still you're still Eastern White was still Eastern whitetail hunting a great I thought we stood in the home on that one. You know, it just really it was close. But um, I was telling some guys that worked out, you know, they something about um. I can't rememb how we got talking about because none of these guys were hunters. But when I mentioned the fact that Penny and I planned, and she wasn't like it wasn't like I was holding a gun to her head. We just talked about in practical terms, when you want his kids to arrive and when we kind of for my schedule it worked out birthday. If I'm if you want me home to help with the kids, it's better if it's outside of hunt when the calendar and some lovemaking. So if that's one guy saying, people like you make me ashamed of the male species amount god, I couldn't be prouder of you. And I thought, well, hey, if if my wife understands it all matters to me, don't give a ship with this. But I thought, no, I I know I missed the mark a little bit on a May niner because of spring bear and Turkey. But when you factor in, I also got a mid December, and I got a late January. So and the late January, which is the best one I got, was accidental. So it's like, even when I'm making mistakes, even when I'm making mistakes, I'm hitting the right. What do you got? Y uh? I'm not really throwing him under the bus. But I missed are now good friend Brodie's wedding because it was a September wedding. I can't remember exactly when, but my wife had to go with a friend of mine. You sent your wife to your buddy. It was September, and Broody understood I suppose Yeah, yeah, what the hell was Brody getting married then? For? I don't you know, I wish I didn't like, Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I'm I'm assuming Brodie's listening. No, but what are your for for? For throwing offspring? What'd you hit? Oh? Um? August uh seventh, December five? So yeah, but perfect good shooting de Yeah, just one right in the perfect spot. Yeah. I can't say that that was planned. That was dumb luck. But you started to realize that the odds are it's gonna be okay because there's more months when it's okay to have a kid then there are when it's not okay to have a kid. Yes, it's playing a room that it figure things out without really causing hard feelings. Yeah, it's not, it's not you're asking the impossible. Yeah, it's just me. It's just being reasonable and realistic. And because like when I got married, when we got married was December six, you know, I just saw the navy and Penny's mom made it clear that she's not moving to Wisconsin with me unless she's married. And so I looked at my schedule, thought, well, dear seasons, you know this, how about two weeks after after deer season. So that's what we did. Yeah, all right, Doggy Concluders. I was fascinated by the wallow conversation. And you've given Pat so much credit about Uh. I was pumping them up, pumping that wallow, finding that wallow, all the woodsmanship that goes along with you know, all these various places where it might be already pouring in, And it just reminded me so much of being able to figure out where turkeys roosting, hijacking him on the way good Woods takes good Woods and ship to find out where turkey's roost is, to find out a turkey's roost and then and then bush wack, I'm on his way in there. Pat Concluders, Yeah, my concluder is that um. I know you guys like history, And when I realized we're gonna be meeting in Lacrosse made me think of an old lieutenant um named He never lived an old age. I think he died at age thirty four in the War of eighteen twelve. His name is You probably know of Zebulon Pike, Pike's Peak, Pike's Peak, Well, did you know this Western? Did you know those two Pikes Peak. Nope, there's one just down the road here, just down the river here at um in Iowa. That way, Yeah, you go on to Iowa. Five feet above right across from Prairie Toucheen and Prairie to Sheen is where the Wisconsin River meets the Wisconsin meets the Mississippi River. Right across from there is a five foot bluff and he named that on Pike's Peak two. That was the first one he named. Yeah, and then had kind he was, um, yeah, Well, and just about fifteen years ago they had like, I think it's a centennial over Minnesota, and this guy referred to zebulon Pike as um. He said something like, it's two hundred years since this exploration he made up the Mississippi, and he's still not Lewis and Clark. He's still basically no respect for the guy. And one of the reasons that they don't respect him to this day is because he was One of his missions from from President Jefferson was to find the headwaters of the Mississippi. So he went up in the central Minnesota, north central Minnesota, and it decided that um Leech Lake was the headwaters of the Mississippi. Well, of course time went on and they realized, no, it's actually to the west lower ways and it's actually like a Taska. So he blew that. But while he's up there, he set his his his um soldiers to work on doug out canoes because they had had to keep exploring. So he's had to make these dugout canoes. And they're all wondering, why the hell would you make your men make dug out canoes when you have were among the Chiple people. They have jibwey and they make they're famous for these birch bark canoes. But this guy insisted on his dugouts. Well, they sank very quickly, they sank with all his powder and zebyone pipe. Decide, well, let's try the powder out. So he had the guy spread the gunpowder over all these all this I think prid camers or whatever the cloth they had in those days. And then they said that high enough above a fire they thought was safe for burned, burned his tents up, So that's tense burn up. He's ruined everything, and this kind of reputation, these kind of things he did, the things he was famous for, is real screw ups. At the same time, he had some respect because he was like, he was a tough he was a tough survivory type guy. He'd be sick and he worked through sicknesses and then but um his place in history. The people who studied him kind of referred to him as the b team of Lewis and Clark, that he was he was not, he was not in their league. Said, I didn't know this about I didn't know that Pike was kind of like not slick. Yeah, and he he went Jefferson. Then after this UM exploration in this part of the world, Jefferson send to explore the UM the southern regions of the Louisiana Purchase because Lewis and Clark up doing on the northwest. And he went down in the Colorado area. He got the Pike's Peak with the Moulteney named Pike's Peak out there, and he decided he was trying to try to scale Pike's Peak while it got to be pretty cold, and they gave up that idea, and he decided that this this place, this mountain can't be climbed, So they gave up, gave up in the idea. Then he they started pushing southward, and I think done is his messengers Michigan was to find the Red River someplace down there. Well, he got his troops all lost. They eventually got captured by the Spanish um army. And then and then apparently his his people, his his men were thankful that they had been captured because they finally had somebody in charge. I knew what was going on, but I'm lost anymore. Yeah, So then eventually they let let him loose them go back, you know, And but he ended up dying not that long after that. He fought in the War of eighteen twelve. Of them when they're invading Toronto. He had killed in Toronto at age thirty four, but yeah, it was Pike died at thirty four four. Yeah, jeez, I think Custer was thirty six when he died. Yea our rice away life is like, well, I hit thirty six and I was like, well Coster died, Now, that's the way to you take stock here if people die. Yeah. Mozart died at three seven. Yeah, she's like Zebulon. Pike died at thirty three or four. He was a general by that time, but he was you know, yeah, he was dead at thirty four. That makes me feel like a do nothing. He sucked at everything. It sounds like, well a good public apparently. Yeah name big mountains, hey man. You know the story about um Laramie. Okay, so Laramie's a guy like he's a mountain man, not even shows up out west hoping to be a mountain man, quickly gets killed under depending who he asked how he got killed, he might have got killed by some Indians and stuff down a hole in the ice and the beaver pond. There's a different versions of events, but total Greenhorn shows up on the scene very quickly, is dead, murdered, killed in the action mountain man action winds up with a town, a mountain range, a peak, a river and no no, no, no no, and yeah you have how he got that kind of why they picked his name out. I'm guessing it was like because whatever beaver pond, he got stuff down through the ice and became Laramie River and then people and is a pretty name. Yeah, now Bridger, there's a guy that deserves it and got everything named after him. That that's my story from that's part of the world, you know, from zebulon pikes Um search up here Yeah. The moral of the story is look for the highest thing you can see around and name it after yourself. So there are two pikes Peaks. Now you I don't know about the Wisconsin one. Well, it's Hashi Iowa. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, it's it's right across the river from Prairie to Sheen. Larry Pete, No, I'm sorry, Pikes Peak Iowa. Ye, I'm gonna climb that onet. You can drive right to the top of it. And we drove as five feet So it's like, what's that one guy? What's fourteen divide by four at five? You know I can't do that kind of man. I was screwed up. SUTs. It's somewhere south five hundred. It's that's the height of Pike's Peak. But but yeah, I started our Pike story and he was like, he's like, dude, next time I name a mountain, Yeah, I'm not doing it like this. He also he also apparently picked that spot Pike's Peak for an army fort. He suggested the army they built a fort there, when then the Army engineers came through years later, looked at looked things over and said, no, pretty Sheen will do just fine, they're building it up on the on the mountain, they're up on the bluff. They're building it down in that the confluence of the Wisconsin River the Mississippi River, so they could command the river and not to carry their stife so far. Yeah, so he wasn't good at sighting forts either. His long list of things that wasn't there, all right, Doug Durren, No, I know, yeah, yeah, I'm just saying your name. I like to end things by saying names like that. Thanks for having Yeah. If it was the beginning, I'd be like Dug during but then I'm like d Dug durn and Patrick Durkin. What's your middle named? Pat? Edward P, D P E D P Okay, did you have any closing thoughts? No, no, I don't have any nothing. Yeah, I'm spent all right, Thank you, Pat, Thank you Doug. Well, thanks for having us.