00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely fog bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything, o, Pat Durkin and Doug Drn. I guess not like you should be cousins. Almost No, you know, I can see a little bit a lot of skin up on top of your head. That's gonna say. The ball guys are on one side of the room. The guys with hair on the other side. Oh yeah, I don't like to get close to the ball guys. Robot. I think you're safe, Steve, I'm really not. My wife doesn't think that I am. Now you're safely. My grandfather, my grandpappy, Glenn Coral, who was an avid muskie angler. I don't even want to tell you his one of the tricks, the muskie tricks he told me about, but I will tell you from a bygone era. He was telling me when I was a little boy. He liked to fish muski. He like to fish crop ease. He was telling me A good way to catch muskies is It's just kind of terrible trying to think of how to bring it up. I think just say it, man, Okay. Glenn Coral my Perturn. My maternal grandfather, who was a farmer and then went on to be to work for a fire department. UM used to fish muskies by basically harness rigging chipmunks, as he explained it to me, harness rigging chipmunks which he would like deliver out into the water by canoe and then and then go back and fish it. Yeah, you remember what it said. I'd like to ask the animal rights as well. And then too, you think about when we were kids. We didn't know it's the illegal, but we used to lip poock leopard frogs. Oh every kid does that. I don't know if they still do. But they were doing that when they mean, and we was doing that. And so I ever caught a fish that way though? Oh I did, And you're I caught I do at night? I thought I catched these big large mouth bass. When I caught was big bullheads mean trophy bull fourteen fifteen trophy They hanging on your wall next year, next hanging in your house. No, but but we eat them on they were good. Yeah, that point being Glen, my paternal maternal grandfather was a balder. And you guys, well maybe not his balls does but and uh, I suppose you like you catch it right, you catch it from your maternal grandpa. My wife thinks I'm thinning out now my barber doesn't. You can tell your wife for me that. When I was in boot camp at age nineteen, my hair was already later than years as far as thickness, and they shaved my head off and then I came back my hair was like yours is. Now that's my ninet team. By twenty nine, it was going fast. Yeah. Now, my bro uh, you know, I got brothers who like staggered out ahead of me a year and a half, eighteen months out and then eighteen more months out. So I look at their heads a lot. It changed their heads changed. Man, this was a little yeah. Yeah, I got those widows speaks. Um. You know. One quick question the guy wrote in A UFO researcher just wrote in is that a real thing? Someone he's claiming to be? One? YEA like to say, you're like an ex researcher, Like, how hard is it to prove it? He like he didn't have I don't know that he has. Like if he walked into his house, would he have like the little degrees hanging on the wall but I think that when I see that, I'm like, I think you could be I think that you could be a UM, I'm guessing he's a hobbyist. There's not a lot of credentials that go along. Yeah, because I think that you if you were someone who was like if you were an astronomer, for instance, and you were curious about life on other planets, I don't think you'd write dudes like me to say, hey man, I'm a UFO researcher, and as part of my research, I thought i'd ask you, fellas who spent a lot of time out in the woods, if you've seen any evidence lately, which is what this email was. Pat Um actually wrote a part of a chapter of a book one time on this guy his trail cameras up here north of here in Buffalo Cony, and as trail cameras picked up a UFO. UM, can you stop from it? When you say that? Do you use it like UFO like lower case or UFO like upper case upper case abbreviation? No? No No, No. What I mean by that is if you see something flying and you can't identify it, that's that's a UFO. I think of that as a UFO lower case when someone says like I saw uh a ufo and they mean by that they mean not that they were not able to identify it, but they mean that it was a thing carrying aliens around. Definitely think of that as you know a fellow that caught an upper case UFO like an alien spacecraft on his trail camp. Definitely. Yeah, I wrote about it. I can even I'll have to send you a copy of it. Just tell basically it was. He just create picture of a doll in front of a Chiel camera. Then in the back way in the back you can see the distance a V shaped object, and that V shaped object moved in those in those pictures. It a series of pictures and then, coincidentally, about in that same time period, by a week before a week after, I can't remember the specifics, there were reports by other people in the area seeing this Uh it's only a wedge shaped object that would pick up an halass out of there. And this one guy taught the story about these guys came flying down the road scared all their mind. They've been driving and had seen this thing. And then Tom was checking his trail cameras and Tom checks his tail cames on his computer. He watches those pictures and he's always seeing stuff and he knows his object back there and it was read about dawn and this thing actually did move in those pictures where you can see it's not something that was a spec showed up in the same spot, is actually something in a movement. Pat, do you believe that? Um, I'm not a don't don't. I'm not asking you if you think that there is life on other planets? Okay, okay. My brother was recently explained to me that the number of other planets is it's a imagine a one with I think something like seventeen or twenty zeros after it. Mhm. He's a statistician and he says, with that many planets, there is one where there is a eight foot tall furry person who is a smuggler in a spaceship, like there's that many planets. I don't know if I buy that, but I'm not asked if you think there's live in our planets? Do you think that right now there are a there are people from other planets in amongst us flying around in ships or do you think that he thinks that or do you think that the guy thinks that. Um, I think they're pretty well convinced they saw something. But I guess the working theory is was it some kind of military test, because because um, Camp Ripley isn't that far away. Camp McCoy isn't that far away, there's possibility. But I guess to your brother's comment, though, I think I would argue that one bit the trouble you wind up and this is way off topic you from with Jared Diamond. Jared Diamond has a thing where he I don't want to mutilate his argument too much, but but he gets into like the idea that we would have contact with another group. Ah and you imagine that. So the Earth four billion years old? Okay? Um, And if you pictured the Earth's history like stretch your arms out as far as you can stretch them out. Okay, that's the Earth's history on a on a timeline, you could remove human history with one stroke of a nail file, meaning here's this planet. And planets are ephemeral, they come and go, here's this planet whose timeline is that long? But one stroke. This isn't McPhee. John McPhee's the guy that brought up this that you could remove human history at the stroke of a nail file. But that's like, how on this planet, which is an ephemeral sort of thing, that we've had that little human history. Now, however, you begin to define the beginning of human history like sort of the fashionable answer used to be the anatomically and behaviorally modern humans have been around for seventy five thousand years, and people like, oh no, anatomically and behaviorally modern humans have been around for a hundred fifty years. But whatever it is, let's just say we have a hundred thousand years of anatomically and behaviorly modern humans where you can take one of them, a person from a hundred thousand years ago, dress them up and in our duds, and they would and bring them up in a modern family, and they would somehow like pass as a personally wouldn't be inconspicuous. Okay, Um, we've got that long hundred thousand years of that, but it's it's been And our ability to electronically transmit messages has been brief. Okay. Our ability to broadcast a message out, so you've been up to it for a hundred years, which is generous. Do you'd be able to broadcast a message? So imagine now the trouble of having another planet, having another planet's life cycle coincide with that. So not that there's not other life. There is something that looks like a chipmunk like my grandfather's muskie fish and bait. Okay, there's another planet that has a chipmunk. But to have it be that that scaled out that you one taking the assumption that life leads to a form of leads to a thing that is curious about life on other planets, or leads to a thing capable of having the face or belief that there are other things out there, which is a new idea here, and have it be that it lined up perfectly and led to the same place where we in the same place in the same time, have the same interest and mechanisms to do so to make contact with one another. It becomes very difficult. It becomes very difficult to picture it. Mhm. So the dude the deer hunter with the trail camera. When I see that, my mind doesn't go to, oh, I'm gonna explain this as an extraterrestrial presence. My mind goes to the hundreds of other things that it unknown, things that it could be. Yeah, But to get to the guy's questions. I was out running mink traps with guy by the name of Carl, and I was in high school and we saw UFO out and swamp checking mink traps, and I remember Carl looked at me and said, I'm not even gonna tell anybody about that. Yeah. I think of it as a UFO cat lower case, but it was a flying object. I was unable to identify three lights. H Well, it's kind of swirling quality to him. Well, you for the mysterious lights up in the up west of only the ones that come from like drump drivers. It was just was just legend up in the up and many people have seen it. Nothing unusual to see it where you um. I think it's west of a little place called paul Myra. I think it is. But anyways, up off forty five going west off in the Up of Michigan, and the legend is at this light that appears at night is the lantern of an old guy in the back of a railroad car from Earth, from from Earth. But it's a mysterious light from Earth. Yeah, yeah, a ghost basically, And it freaks people out and they go up there and they hear about this. You know this mysterious ghost and this mysterious light and they go look at and yep, it's there. And then no one, no one at all those time, has ever been able to explain where that light comes from. Just odd some kind of physical occurrence obviously, but no one can explain it. What do you think about all that, Doug, I it's just uh, feeling like it's two o'clock in the morning after a grateful Dead show. As soon as all right, I think we gave that guy the UFO researcher excuse me, the credential UFO researcher, Yanni, who who's can you? Can you explain the guy? Can you explain that your buddy, you got the wrong piece of paper? Oh? Can you explain the story how this guy like how we got to know him? Or no? Tell the story? Oh yeah, for sure it can't, he wrote in He actually he contacted me first before he wrote us a story, because he was listening to us talking about salt bait and the legalities around that. If you got caught hunting over, you know, a chunk of salt, then if it was yours or not, you knew it was there or not, you know, and how the law would deal with it. So oh yeah, you know what, hold that pick it back up a minute. But I did the We just we're talking about how Alabama made that rule that there used to be like no bait, and it was like, okay, if you're a hundred yards from your bait and you can't see the bait, if it's behind, if like if it's out of sighting and a hundred yards away, then it's okay. So then dudes started putting bait on the other side of hay bales a hundred yards away because they couldn't see the bait and it was a hundred yards away. Well, just so happened that um Alabama just legalized baiting for it came out because they wanted to find a more efficient way to kill hogs and they got a real hog problem in Alabama. So they're like legal. But then they rolled in you can bait for deer and hoggs in Alabama, full on balls out, much of the chagrin of many white tail managers. You can now bait. They're so like one hammer dealing with the spread of infectious diseases and tear herds, and one thing we damn sure no is the best way to get infectious diseases to jump around is to invite a bunch of animals to rub noses and a feed pile. But they legalized baiting. What's funny is you have to buy a baiting license because the Fish and Game Department was bummed about all the revenue they would be losing from being able to give people from giving citations for baiting. They were making revenue off fines for baiting, and they're like, we're gonna lose the revenue we have from it being illegal. There's a plant to it with revenue from happening to buy a baiting stamp. I'm not this is not a joke. Go ahead, it's just it. But it's just yeah. I think it definitely comes from the from the hog thing. And then there's certain deer dudes and they're like, well, we got too many deer, we need to kill more. And then people like you really got too many deer is because everybody wants to shoot big, giant, huge bucks. No one wants to kill those. They had the highest deer densities, some of the highest deer dancers in the country. You're allowed to kill like I hunted Alabama the late nineties, and you could get a dear day way like then. It's more than that. Now we went down and just like cold rolled in and hunted Tuskege National Forest and killed a bunch of bucks. M go ahead, ye, speaking of speaking of baiting, speaking of baiting. So he contact me and said, I got a good baiting story. He said he and body were hunting ducks in North Carolina about fifteen years ago, and uh, all over the general area. The hunting was pretty slow. Um, but they had plenty of time. There had plenty of time to scout, and they scouted hard and they found a spot that was holding some ducks. So they made a plan come back the next morning. Um. It was near houses, but not close enough to be dangerous, um, but definitely close enough to where the houses could hear the shots. I think, you know, there's plenty of duck hunting spots like that. UM. I know that when I'm at my in laws in North Carolina over the holidays. Uh, you know, they live on the Intercoastal Waterway, and I mean it's NonStop, almost all day long. You just hear, you know, as the birds are flying up and down the inter Coastal there. Um anyways, Um, so they're they're shooting away, having some action, and all of a sudden they look over and there's a woman standing on a pier with a megaphone and she's yelling at them, um that she's already called the game warden because they're hunting over bait. Well, she doesn't want them hunt. No, she doesn't want him hunting. She's calling the game warden though she knows they're hunting over bait. They don't know they're hunting over bait. So um, he says, they shipped their pants and uh, they're wondering what to do, and in no time, the game wardens pulling up. The woman gets in a canoe and paddles over and tells the game warden that's now with them and there their ducks, that she knows they're hunting over bait because she put it there on purpose so she could watch the ducks but didn't tell anyone, and wanted to keep people from hunting in that area, so she figured she bait it and then if it's made it, you can't hunt there. The game warn't proceeded to write the woman a ticket for hunter harassment, and then told the two hunters to go ahead and finish out the hunt, but after that to stay out of there a few weeks since at that point they knew it was bated, and he felt that the general rule was that a bated area couldn't be hunted for ten days after the bait was put out. YEA love it. So that's the thing. I followed up with him to ask, uh, you know, because obviously now at that point they're like, damn, this might be good. So I followed up to see if they limited, but he said it just felt too sketchy, so they just left. He didn't take the warden up on the office. There's a lot of things. There's a lot of things going on there that warrn't discussion. One is, um, ducks are migratory. I'm talking to the listeners here. Ducks are migratory. So a state can't claim, you know, you know, states manage their own wildlife with the exception of something that has federal protections like through the Endangered Species Act or migratory stuff. Because you can't claim ownership of a bird that's that's traveling, you know, thousands of miles and just stopping into places. So the way they kind of like the way they the FEDS and and the FEDS and the states co manage migratory birds. And you have flyways in the US because you imagine like bird movements are generally these north south movements. So you have the Atlantic Flyway, the Pacific Flyway, how many other there's four or five flyways Mississippi River fly Mississippi Flyaway, sent then there's the there's one that goes down the Rocket Central, and then there's four or five flyways. Look that up, way, I should know that you got a handful of flyways and the waterfall, like migratory wilder falls managed sort of on the flyway level. And in the States and the FEDS work together and they kind of look at there's four flyways, name them off Yanni, Pacific Central, Mississippi in Atlantic. There you go. So you'll look at like what a state, what a state's contribution, so to speak, is to the general well being of a species. And if a waterfall species really utilizes a state heavily for wintering grounds or utilizes a state heavily for breeding grounds, um that states allocation of that resource will be greater than say a state where the bird just passed through and don't really utilize the area at all. And it's it's kind of like a good system because it prohibits the state from extracting like more than its share of a re source, which would then impact other people down the line. The same way, if you live on a creek and you feel free to pour all kinds of poison into the creek on your property, that poison will flow down river and affect the guy down the stream. And that's why we have rules that prohibit one's actions on their land from having a negative impact on the actions of someone else's land. Sort of that same kind of logic at play with waterfowl. What was I getting at? Oh point I was getting at is you can't bait migratory birds federal Like, even if state decided, hey man, we want to allow baiting ducks, you're not gonna be able to do it because the feathers are never going to agree to it. Bait and waterfowl, but you can even if you go and plant crops, Like even if you go, let let's say your guy that likes to hunt ducks, you know, a bunch of land, and you're like, I'm gonna grow corn on my lamb because I like to hunt ducks. Even if you're doing that, you can't, right, you can't raise that corn and harvest that corn out of sink with how corn is harvested when used for agricultural purposes, Like, you can't grow a bunch of corn, never harvest it, wait for the duck migration to come in, knock all the corn down and flood it and start hunting ducks. You have to if you plan it, you have to pick it the way it would be picked. You can't just like loophole your way around it by doing weird stuff. People do do weird stuff, And you can do like enhancements and plant native vegetation that ducks like to eat all that kind of stuff. Habitat improvements are fine, but you can't do sort of like egreedgious kind of accidental baiting baiting by like I said, the most egregious case would be that you would somehow grow corn, pick it and then kind of grains and then maybe flooded and then accidentally spill all the grain and not pick it up and and flooded and then be like, oh, you know, I'm a farmer. They watched that kind of stuff and in Wisconsin. Property taxes are based on rural land is based on land use. And I just have some folks that I'm working with who have a uh complaint about their property taxes haven't gone up. And they said, well, this is agriculture, and what it is is a twenty acre food plot that they you know, they went in and knocked it down. I saw the crop didn't come up. I mean, that's what they're trying to tell the assessor. And the assessors like, no, that's that's that's undeveloped property, which is at a much higher rate than um. He wasn't He wasn't buying it at all, I said, dude. And they were asking me, don't you think the size of the night. It sounds to me like if you want to be a farmer, you need to be a farmer, all right, So so here. So so that's one interesting thing pointed conversation out of this story by the sky. The other point is the fact that and this is I think not widely known that it's ill oftentimes in many states, and Pat Durkin is gonna speak to this. It's illegal to screw with the hunter or a trapper or a fisherman. You can't harass him. You can't molest his hunt. Remember Jeremiah Johnson, he gets accused by bear claw Chris Cloud of molesting his grizzly hunt. It's illegal to molest someone's hunt. As that woman found out, that's what she was in trouble for harassing a hunter who's engaged in a legal activity. Yeah. Is that a federal or a state by state? State by state? And every state now has anti harassment law, every state, every state has it. Yeah. The the United States Sportsman Alliance back in the eighties basically helps states. They crafted a model legislation in the states. It's from the most easy ones to pass. No one, no one likes harassment of legal activities, so it passed in all fifty states. I didn't know that. I remember when it passed. I remember I was living in Michigan. I think when it passed the Michigan. I feel like I was living in Michigan. It passed the Michigan, and I was curious aboute because the trap because the trappers were getting her asked. Yeah, that's where that that's where the Sportsmen's Lions came from, right, well, harassment so kind of trapping band in Ohio, Is that right? We heard the story recently. That might be because that's where they're from in Columbus. You know, I remember I remember covering those guys in the mid eighties. They're doing you know, trips around the country in those days, rounding up support for the organization. But you know, but I remember in Wisconsin here we had a face to face face harassment going on in Blue Mountain State Park, which is over not too far from Doug's farm, and the D and R had wardens out there and they pretty much um didn't interfere a whole lot and didn't arrest anybody because they has figured we're not going to make martyrs on these people, and all these laws when in effect, and basically the warden's told these people, you know you can you've been warring now and if you come back and you're still harassing them, then we'll have to take action. But what's what's I think fascinating about the story that you're sharing here is that's really become how that law is being enforced. I mean, there's very very few cases now where animal rights activists go out and organized fashion and disruptant, so it just asn't unusual now, what's happenings that legislation. Yeah, that's that's probably part of it. That they know that this this is something that they can be if they physically interrupt someone's hunt, blurred noise, do anything, they're harass, molest, it's illegal, and it's it's pretty well, you know, it's been stoop to the various legal challenges and so they probably don't challenge anymore. That's probably you don't see that kind of um enforcement action being taken because it just isn't happening because of the law. But what's happening is all these people pulling that kind of in a business where they honked honked their horns and the neighbors hunting in his backyard. Um, they you know, you can google this stuff. It's I did this in in preparation. It was fun to do. You started googling hunter harassment. What do you see? It's basically neighborhood situations, UM situations Like a guy opening day Wisconsin's gun season, doesn't like his neighbor hunting the fence lines, who goes up there and starts cutting the chain saucers doing his firewood project open day and the curse in the hunter gets piste off, climbs down and this is you know, back probably for our cell phone coverage was so good, and calls the ward and the warren comes out un tells the neighbor quit cutting the wood. You know, come on, that's I can set here for harassment. But how did you know the guy doesn't want to cut some wood? Is because it's a long running battle, you know, typical neighbor ship that goes back and forth between two neighbors that don't like each other. And I find boils over an opening day and then the warren's involved. You know, I know a case where there was a hunter harassment from one hunter to the other. Oh yeah, Our good friend Kevin Murphy, the world's greatest small game hunter, did a trip up to my home state of Michigan and was hunting my home national forest, Manastee National Forest, which I think now goes by a different name, or it's here on Manistee. Anyways, many national forest and they're out there with these they're out there with through squirrel dogs, which is not a quiet type of dog. I mean, these things make a racket. But anyway, some bow hunter comes peeling down out of his tree, freaking out on him. M it a call up on that guy for hunter. Yeah, yeah, he felt that his deer hunting trumped Kevin's squirrel hunt, which is yeah to me, it's it's public land and you take what you get. Yeah, it's like, sorry, bro, or the dogs may have has easily runned your past. The guy has are you know, scared of your And if you don't like it, I mean the thing to do is get organized and trying to change the laws, right, changing seasons or whatever it might be. But the thing is they enjoy you know, both of those guys. So squirrel hunters more so than deer hunts. But you already enjoy it very long season. Yeah so too. You know, if you whittled it down and we're like, hey, we're gonna have a week long archery deer season and it will make it real quiet in the woods. I think that your average bowl hunter would be like, you know what, I'll stick with six or eight weeks that I have understanding that there's gonna be some other activities going on out here, because a lot of states will come in and shut down small game for the firearms season or like a day before, right, there's something like that in Wisconsins. It's not anymore. No, you can. You can. You can remember because we were going to hunt with Brittany and HELLENX. We want to hunt squirrels. First I thought, you can't go shooting off guns the day before dear season. They changed it. They changed it was the day before your season. We squirrel hunted with Brittany, so they has changed it. Yeah, it's pretty recent that you couldn't go shooting on fire. It was more of, oh, you don't want to disturb the woods. Oh, that's not going there. And then the next morning my nephew goes out there and shoots a big buck right where you guys were sure because you know what, it doesn't sets the deer at ease, well, the word the deer like he said, Dude, I was freaking out. Then I realized they're just hunting squirrel. I'm going That's where I'm gonna go. Um. So that woman was which woman, the woman in the canoe. She was cited for hunter harassment and baiting. We don't know about that because she's been cited for bathing, all right, Yeah, but she wasn't baiting to hunt. So then you get into this tricky thing feeding the wildlife in your backyard. That's the whole thing in Wisconsin about Oh, this isn't baiting, this is I'm feeding wildlife. I'm not right, And it sounds state you can't do that in Montana. You can't see wildlife at all. That I don't seems like a good rule to me, you know it. Got recently wrote in to say to ask how many people we would all like our funeral? Meaning if you were to die and then look down from the heavens, what would if you look down? What would you feel would be the right number? For me, it'd be like or up at the bottoms of their boots depending yep, yeah, looking up looking up from hell? How many people would you like to see there? But the reason that I'm thinking about that now as I had wanted. Um, I haven't codified, I haven't written this down, but I know where I want my carcass dumped. I don't want to be cremated or buried. I want to be surface dispersed in it's a piece of public land, um. And I know the exact spot, and I've explained it my wife. I want to be surface dumped there in order to be ravaged by wild beasts. Yeah. Um and I realized now besides the incredible headache, because this is they're gonna have to whoever does this has to haul my I think they should part it out and game bag, but they gotta pack me in four miles and then dump my surface, dumped my carcass. And now I'm thinking about there's that's probably illegal, hand definitely illegal. But you know what, Crazy Horse, I'm not liking myself to these people in anyway. I'm just I just know because I've been interested in having my body, I would like my body to be dumped in the woods in the mountains. Um. So in warning about the legality of that, I've looked at cases where there are uh where people have gone and dump people buried people. Crazy Horse after he was killed in Nebraska, uh by bayonet was they've never found his body. They took him out of the fort and so he's somewhere buried there. No one knows where jam knew a crack in the rocks. Perhaps no one's ever found Crazy Horse's body at abbey. His friends dumped him and they have never divulged. Ah. I think that the Grizzly Bear researcher Doug Peacock was involved in this. They've never divulged where they put his carcass. So I would like to. I really would like to be surface dumped. But it's like maybe there is a way around it. You know, I don't know. Have you been have you looked into it? No, I'm just gonna make it clear that that's what i want done. And then if the people who are left to do this, which I presumably be my children, if they're left to do this and they really honestly just do not want to follow their father's dying wishes, I will leave that decision to them. If not, I feel like they're going to have to do it and they're gonna have to face the consequences. However minor they might be like, yes, you're honored we took an old man's carcass out and dumped in the woods. Yeah. Well, I'm sure a lawyer is crafting the email right now to us to explain how we can get get around and get it done. So Pat, all fifty states have a no harass and hunter law. And we started that with talking about how many people are going to be at the funeral. Yeah, we didn't get that. How many people are gonna be at your funeral? How many people do you want at your funeral as well? It's gonna have to be the least. Is that your funeral enough to curry the body? Yeah, like I don't want I still want to be fun So thirty forty pounds per persons like I take four people to carry it. Imagine some other people are going to go to if I look down and saw ten, but see, it depends on when I die, because like right now, I'd expect certain family members to be there, but presume me they'll be dead when I die, So I don't know. Like I would like if I looked down and saw less than three, I know there's a real problem because I have three children, right so less than three would be one that my life was destroyed by the loss of one of my children, at which point I don't care what happens to me after I die, and then uh ten eleven. I feel like there's some people down there who probably shouldn't be there. They're just going because they want to see this all play out. I was gonna volunteer, I'd say, you know, I'd be happy to take three or forty pounds of you and drop you somewhere. But I was gonna say, you're gonna have to We're gonna have to work on the timing a little. This coming from a man who pulled out his hearing aids and laid him on the table. And unfortunately I can't have the bullshit filters on now. So and I'd volunteered too, steep, but I'm older than Dougs. So yeah, I would like to thank you guys. Be long dead dog? Are you gonna be buried at your farm? Uh? You know, we've talked about that a bunch of trying to figured out we drove making a fat making a family plot. Well, we have a big old family plot up at the where I went to church, and that that cemetery. My family was a part of the establishment of that church and everything, and that's where all I'm like, my brother is buried there, my dad's buried there, my grandparents, my I mean, you go out there and you can't swing a cat in that cemetery without hitting a dirt in tombstone. So, um, you can't swing a cat around there without hitting a dirt. Well, that's that's true. Road down the road is named during road Um, I put some of my dad's ashes under his favorite deer stand on the farm. Remember that. And did you put anything in the family plot? Yeah, you didn't like cremate part of them and very part of them. No, it was all cremated. So there's a little urn in the family plot and then up there. So those are the two places, because you know, the Pope said, we don't want people scattering ashes all around the country. Keep your keep your pile together as close as it can be. And I figured that was close enough. My sister in law, um, on her ranch, they have I guess what passes as a cemetery cemetery to them. Yeah, I've seen it. Yeah, she would heard my brother got married. It's like you could look often as a rock pile or whatever over there where grandfather and Mr Potter get married right on top of the bones of your ancestors on your own land. Yeah that's nice. Um. And now she's got grizzlies on her place, so I might just be able to do my whole body dump. You'd be gone tomorrow. Did he did he have any other context with the question or that that was it? You just wanted to know how many people. We just wanted to know what you would think of as good enough. What's your answer? Yeah, I've never really thought about it. I guess that's the thing. It's all about the timing, because you hope, now if it happened that, yeah, there could be a thousand people there. Okay, No, No, I'm just saying whatever, some great amount of you know, friends and peers and whatever, that you've had that kind of reach that so many people would like to come and support you. But yeah, when you're you know, my recently deceased grandmother's age, you don't she didn't have any peers everybody, So you know, we had quite you know, we had almost forty people there though, which was like I didn't expect it, you know, but you forget how many, like I think, little tentacles you know, people have out there, and how many you know, close associations you have. It was funny to bring up the you know, my father, as I talk about many times, my father fought in World War Two, so he had me when he was fifty years old, and I was raised around retired as a kid, I was brought up around retired or semi retired World War Two vets. To a large degree, many of my dad's best friends that way and they just fished. Um, there's that whole circle. There's only there's one left who lives down the beach for my mom. And I think about that guy from like Last Man Standing, Like all of that guy's friends that he spent his entire adult life with have just been whittled away. And he was a he was a pilot in World War Two, and it's like his Like when that guy wakes up and goes to call his buddies, ain't know oning to call man He has ran out of him, you know over the last ten fifteen years. Well he's got younger buddies now. Yeah, but like the main you know, the main people that I watched him spend decades, they're just gone. But what's what's fun about? Not fun, But what's I think fascinating about wakes and funerals all is their their colleagues are gone. There's there's siblings are gone in any case, like my dad died, and yet you see all the people who they touched that you never had any idea how they touched them. They show at the at the wake and you think, oh dad did Okay, Yeah, that's that's fascinating because that is I mean, you had some awareness of it, but until you until they die and you hold a wake, you don't know what the hell your parents, what holiday work, their magic outside the family, and it was it was a kind of a cool process to see you. So, Ni, what's your final number? Let's say you died right now, you just fell over dead right now because your heart problem. Would you want to be just like me and your wife? Or just me or a hundred? I think I'd be probably pretty happy if just my family was there, and I would feel gracious if they was a hundred of my friends. I guess so big numbers. Yeah, so you'd want to look up from hell and see two hundred boots everybody having a big party, two booths belonging into one people. Oh, I wanted to be so somber when I died. I don't like this celebration of life. It's gonna be just. I wanted to be sad. I wanted the ground to be wet with tears. Man. Um, Well, don't I get to say how I want to go? I do want to hear. Would you like to hear how many you'd like to have? Um? If I I'd say that it would be cremated or my big wish, but will never happened. I've always liked the idea that did in the Navy in World War Two. They get a big sack, throw to your body in there, throw a couple of big empty shell cases in these big brass shell cases off the side your goal. That's how Osama bin Laden was buried. Yeah, basically I saw that. That's kind of cool way. You know, people don't have to come and weep over a grave site. You know, they know you're out there somewhere, and that's good enough for me. So that's my um. So you'd be taken out to see another way they used to do it. They put you in a sort of flammable boat. And so the boat full of like brush and sticks and whatnot, lay your carcass out on it, set the boat on fire, and push it out right. Do you remember who it was? Because I feel like that was popularized by some movie, was popularized by dead Man. No, the burning part wasn't in dead Man and Jim Jarmus's film dead Man, which is probably the greatest Western ever made, one of the greatest Western's ever made. Um In the end, he puts a what is in fact a live person that he thinks is dead and come back to life, puts him in a boat and says, it's time for you to go back to where you came from. Got it? But have you seen Jim Jarmus is dead? Man? It sounds like I gotta tell you the remaster. But how many people? Many people? Um? People who were close? None? It was a navy ship. It was on deck. Yeah, and that's I'd say. If we're a tug boat, that'd be fine with me. You know what, I need eight people, That's fine. If I thought it had a navy connection, I'd be cool with it. Well, your daughter will bill pull strings? Because that's right? I could I could, you know, keep her on? Well, she'd go to the top brass like, hey, h here's the deal bag over there. We need to take a little ride. I need a boat ride. I've never thought of this. The only thing that I've ever thought about was that that whole thing about leading your life and writing your your own obituary and then leading your life accordingly. That's not something I thought about a lot. But I did want to say about my dad. Was he and another guy, Pete Melford and has obvious the last two World War two vets and neither one of those guys wanted to give up. It was like a grudge match between the two of them, how long they were going to live and stead Pete don't lived Dad h and that that was interesting because my father was like pats of you know, pillar of the community and how many people came through and yeah, you really do see how um you're the tentacles the influence that he'd had over people in the community, and um, I guess that's the kind of thing that, uh, that's really gratifying. But you know, personally, I never thought about it. M probably won't. I'll just be dead. Yeah, that's the other thing I think about all the time. It's like, who cares, I'm just dead anyway, because but but the thing is death planning big business. Well yeah, but it's like it's you do it. You make your wishes alive because you're just saying what you what in life. I like the idea of so the execution of it. The fact that people feel beholden to carry out your wishes really says something. Because there's no ramification. You can't get pissed at him at them from the wouldn't have done what you wanted me to do. The heavens or hells or whatever the microbial form that you wind up taking. So pat fifty states have ANTI Is it covered by is it covered by fishing too? I know trapping our fishing is fishing protected? I don't know if it is. I don't. I haven't seen anything specific basically hunting and trapping. I think because because those are the ones that who had asked the fisherman when other fishermen, Yeah, her asked by other fishermen. And I've been harassed by people who own the land where I might have the be fishing without permission at times. But that's more. That's different. But it's good to know. So anyone who's listening, if they ever have someone come out and harass them while hunting, pick up your phone or go do go to a phone and call to get the person in trouble. Yeah. And the one that the case you see quite often these days is on public lands to where a guy um has a tree stand up and comes back a couple years later in this tree stands laying the ground or it's been um damaged in some way and realized what he inadvertently moved down to some other guys. You know, turf who thinks he's entitled that spot. He's been hunting the spot for over a long or what happens in Wisconsin lot is a damn bait piles. These guys started maintaining a bait pile. They start thinking that's their bait pile, their property, and then they defended, and so you have these wardens have to go in there and separate these guys and say, you know, this isn't your land. He has a very right to be here. And they say how those kinds disputes. Wisconsin's got an interesting going on going on right now. They passed a law last year to prevent animal rights activists from even filming and videotaping, recording images repeat that the losses something like repeatedly, And I personally think that one was going to get shot down in courts because I don't know how you can prevent someone like me, a journalist and taking a picture of guys down the road, like let's say, bear hunters getting their dodge rated to goal. And that's what's happening. Was this came up because um, a case came up where some animal rights activists were up building Wisconsin monitoring the bear hunters, the wolf hunters. The guys with the hounds didn't like the hounds up there chasing bears and wolves. I can't think of that. I think it's mainly what worrying about wolf hunting though, And so they they got some lawmaker to write write a bill saying you can't write a law, it's actually law now that you can't repeatedly stand there like in a road and video tip these guys down the road doing their business. That seems like a stretch. Yes, that's a stretch because I think you get then you're the public exactly. I mean, yeah, you can't go into some guy's property and do that that. You couldn't do that anyway, I'd be trespassing. And if you follow them through the woods it could be harassment, right. But just to stand there on the road and shoot down am an old logging road, that kind of thing, I think that gets in the First Amendment stuff. I don't know how that whatever will stand the test of time in courts, but um, yeah, that's you talked. Almost anyone up in public lands up north right now. Almost everyone has some kind of story like that where there they left a tree stand out, or they have a bait piled, the buddy at a bait pile is always all those kind of stories that's common now that liked Hunter on Hunter, Hunter and Hunter. And then when I mentioned earlier, the backyard situations are becoming more common because you have more suburban hunting UM Washington on the suburbs of our our nation's capital, UM, these northern very in your neighborhoods. There's a pretty good case where the Archery Trade Association, which I do a lot of work with, actually got involved and provide an attorney to fight it because when his neighborhood associations was trying to prevent a guy trying to prevent a bowl hunting group when he's UM. They had these cool bowling groups in these big urban areas that go out and shoot deer in people's yards basically try to knock knock the herd down. And this one guy, one group that was doing that a lot. They were getting harassed and being told and actually legally not, you can't hunt this neighborhood. And our association, you know, you know, has a um what do you call his covenants to prevent that well, Archie Trade Association took it on, got their lawyer involved and got a struct struck it got strucken stricken down because it was just, you know, it violates some they you know, home owners associations cannot dictate hunting rules. That's the state's province unless they own the land. Unless they own the land. Yeah, but but they're it reminds me of an old joke. They're dictating it to their dictating it to other landowners, and you can't do that. So that's that's why they Yeah, because the state is jealous of states detective of its rights on it to manage hunting. And from the big point of view is that while they're representing us, you know, the state wildlife associated agencies, they represent us, and so they're looking out for our rights by by by fighting it. So so that's where these cases are gone. It's not it's no longer the animal rights people typically creating the problems. It's it's hunters and neighbors that kind of things. Just to be clear, because I happen to have very personal Uh I don't want to say it like covenant expertise. Well, yeah, but I got I got some skin in this game. Um, because yeah, my supposed h a which you know, it came in perpetunity with the property right, so we never signed anything, has never been a meeting. We don't pay any dues. There's maybe twenty rules you know there they were supposed to follow, and one of them is no hunting with firearms only only you can hunt with the boat. Doesn't say you can't shoot firearms, which you can't hunt with firearms. And you're saying that they cannot enforce that. I bet you if if if you were to challenge it, they have a hard time defending it because that's truly a state. Um, that's a state issue. They can't be dictating that. But you know, cities can pass ordinance, so off it's a safety they can provide. They can do that. No firearms in the village and have firearms in the city. No, So it's a matter. It seems like if it's a neighborhood association and there's like common ground in the middle of it, you know, and the houses are all around it, that if they own that as a group, or that was a part of that development or whatever, they I don't see I've got by mixing the hunting into I think I think it complicates a situation. What I'd like to see. What's starting to concern me is when the the agencies that will run like a bear hunt, but they'll have a mandatory check station. So Florida did this and they're ill fated bear hunt. New Jersey and they're soon to be ill fated bear hunt. They actually elected a governor who ran on an anti bear hunting, had an anti bear hunting plank in his platform. I don't need It's just we got an email from a guy who uh started hunting, and then got started hunting, got divorced, and now his ex wife goes down to join the bear hunting protesters. So he said his life's become a real joke, really joke at his circle of friends. But they have these check stations, and they make an actual protest area at the check station, so the people can come down and harass hunters who are legally obligated to go to that specific check station rather than to be able to go to you know, a facility. Normal you go to check something. You go to the fishing game office, right, and you go in, you go into a enclosed area or whatever and do a check things. So they gotta like set off like a protest zone so people can heckle and harass people who are fulfilling one they're legally allowed to hunt. They're fulfilling their legal obligation to check the thing, but they got to do so against the back drop. Wow, I'm surprised to let that go of a bunch of you, who's well, you can't prevent people from protesting the laws or not physically doing something to the people. Yeah, at a Turkey check station. I'm guessing no one shows up. When you have a Turkey check station, you probably don't need to have an area. And I see at that point it's not really harassment because they're not affecting the hunt. I don't like it in this world. There are things where like That's why I would like to be an absolute dictator, because um, because then I wouldn't have to worry about the legal like just certain rules I wanted to have it. I don't have to worry about why, like how to justify them. I'd be like, Oh, in addition to all that, I don't want this to happen either, and I don't. I can't explain why, just don't like it. I just don't like it, can't and I don't won't. I don't care what you think. Watch this segue speaking of hunter harrassment, Speaking of hunter harassment, Pat Durkin, I think that that's that blue laws are a form of hunter harassment. Can you explain a blue law? I just sprang this on Pat okay Um, I'll right away start with an apology that I'm not from my state that has ever had blue laws. I think, yeahgize. I apologize as saying I'm not the most versed in this topics, so I'm sure someone will will correct me on this. But I do remember I have some experience in this because when I was stationed in Virginia back in the seventies, UM Virginia had a blue law, and I think it's still in effect. In the blue law basically from my understanding, was that UM stores like big department stores, UM shopping malls, UM hunting. You could not go out on Sundays and the hunt. You couldn't go out and shop at these big shopping malls. All those stores are shut down, so you couldn't shop or hunt. You couldn't shop or hunt. You could go fishing, though, But but I this has to do with the Sabbath, right, I'm sure it has to do with the Sabbath, because the only place I'm aware of, well, actually I think, um, I think until recently, I think Matttoba had no Sunday hunting, or Saskatchewan one of those provinces had a too. Is fine, It's not just a Southern thing. It's something that I think, right, certain religions, UM just didn't think it's proper to be hunting on Sundays. Pennsylvania, like our man Brody Henderson, frequent guest here, wrote a piece on our website. If you go to the mediator dot com, you look up Brody's piece about about blue laws, which which me and everyone I know it feels that they should be just categorically repealed across the board. Um, it's it's it's just like upsetting to me. But that you can fish as though, as though like to think that the God would look down and be mad at a guy solemnly sitting in his tree stand all day, okay, in quiet contemplation as he awaits the arrival of a deer that he knows will probably not show up, and God would be mad at that guy. But then some dude sitting on the edge of a pine, swilling beers and yelling back and forth up and down the bank with his buddies fishing all day. It's like that that, right, it just doesn't make sense. Well, I think they would probably look back now and look at that as a failure in their part when they made the rule. It's just that we should have thrown in Fishing's definitely because if and watching football, even playing football on Sundays. I mean, the goal has got to be to get more people through the church stores, right, Doug, did you actually raise your hand. I've been, I've been helps it helps to do that, you know. I don't wanna, I don't wanna interrupt. I think that the fishing thing is probably because the Apostles were all fishermen. I like that. I like that. Yeah, when told to uh, that great story cast your nets on the other side of the boat, that Bible story. Yes, um, that could be now. I used to trap on some land, not Amish, but I used to trap on a lot of Mennonite properties. And they keep I believe, I believe they are men. I believe they kept a Saturday Sabbath which was like the original set people used to think that everybody think that Saturday was the Sabbath sundown, like that's how the Jews on it, right, sundown, Friday sundown, Saturday. I used to trap on their land. They wouldn't like check traps on the Sabbath. They didn't want anybody out running traps because they honored the Sabbath. They weren't like doing weird shortcuts, right, I mean, they were like stripped by the book. Um, and I would trap fox so you can't not check your you know, you gotta you gotta check traps every morning, early earlier, the better I'd have to go pull them all. I'd pull them all on Friday, then reset on Sunday because you can't just leave them out and not run them. But there I was like more indulgent because there I was like, you know what you have? You go so far out of your way to stay true to an understanding of a text right that there, I feel like like I'm like, yeah, I get it. But when people who are just like so randomly sort of cherry pick parts that they're like, oh, I'm gonna I agree with that part that part, never mind, then I get a little bit intolerant. Of it. Yeah, and what's fascinating to me about that? Not hunting on Sundays. I had shipmates who were from Virginia and they're from southern states that had blue laws, and I'd tell him one, in Wisconsin, we don't have that. We can hunt all seven days the week. And aren't you working to repeal this? Why don't you get rid of that? And they looked at me like I was nuts. You know, that's just unheard of it. You would go and shoot a gun on a Sunday. They didn't didn't like that idea. They'd fight it. Maybe it's the peacefulness of the day. But by point was this, but most guys only can hunt the weekend. So here you are eliminating your eliminating your hunting. You're cutting it down by oh yeah. I My story in my typical week kind of hunting in Virginia would be to lead the ship on Friday night, drive five hours out um Bath County, Virginia, hunt all day Saturday, shut down Sunday, hunt half the day Monday, and then then drive back the ship. And I just just used to drive me nuts giving up that Sunday go I go scouting and stuff. But it's not the same. Now I'm getting ripped off here. Another thing, another piece of another piece of this that's not related, but simply reminded that I'm reminded of. It's something we talked about earlier, which is that a lot of states um cut off, cut off your hunt day at some time. Hm. I only know that for turkeys. Wells myle Manu's talk about this mile Man in Post Warriors. They would go down to hunt geese, and they would hunt geese some places where you could only hunt geese till I can't remember what it was noon. But this is back when there weren't that many Canada geese, you know, like like it wasn't like it wasn't like today where they're trying to like come up with creative ways to inspire people to kill more Canada geese. Uh, that's better. There weren't that many geese, but you couldn't huntil noon. And he said those geese would sit on a refuge and they would like normally a goose wakes up in the morning and the first thing on his mind, he's gonna leave his roost and they roost on open water, big open water. He's gonna leave his roost and go eat. The law had trained that those geese had learned to sit on the roost, and they would sit on the roost. And he said he could be exaggerating, but he said it was like at twelve oh one, the geese would leave the roost and go feed in the fields. They had picked it up. Wow. Yeah, but now it's primarily a turkey thing. We're hunting. California have to quit hunting turkeys at three. In Missouri, you have to quit hunting turkeys at one, I believe, and I think California was four. I feel like it was a very odd time, like very late in the day, because they don't want you going in. Well, what do you think of this path? Are started off? We kind of adopted um Missouri's rule. We are started off with noon and the explanation we got was that get the turkeys to break in the afternoon and made it easier to call the next day. They got it. They had all these different rationales for the gobble, more than that being pestered all through the day, and then um also the argument that they didn't like, they didn't think like the idea that people could sit and wait for them to come back to a roosting area and shooting mouth, you know, coming basically ambushing coming back to roost. But you know we had only worked so well. It only works so well because the turkey doesn't have agree in his life. Like what, Doug, you look like you're like either having a heart attack or like what what? Well, I'm just gonna go in that whole thing about turkeys not using the same rusts and no listen, listen, yeah I am, I am unplugged his thing. Turkeys do you like to use the same rust? They do not feel married to a roust, use it when it suits them. But the idea, unless you're talking about some extreme desert situation where you have an oasis that has like a couple of sycamores growing in the bottom of it and that's the only way for that some bitch to get up off the ground, then you might kind of have him by the short hairs when it comes to setting up on his rust. Most turkeys like they'll roost in the same tree a bunch of nights in a row unless there's a reason not to. Okay, yeah, I don't want to get on plugs, so I agree with you. Now what what I don't understand. It's still it's it can be. It's totally go workable tactic. I mean, I've killed a handful of birds, but they're not like Okay, when I was recist, when I was researching my Buffalo book, I would read about hide hunters out on the Texas planes who would find an isolated water hole that was getting used, and when it got dark out, they would build fires and make a lot of rockets around the water hole to prevent any animals from approaching during the dark when it was hard to see them, and shoot and work in order to only allow them the opportunity to even think about coming for water during the daylight hours when you could kill them. And they would do it in a way or they knew they had heard, you know the technical term by the short hairs and having identified its sole water source. Okay, that to to act like sitting a roost for turkeys is somehow where you're sort of like got them and you've you've backed them into a corner. Now, isn't true? Oh and now you're getting back to like the law of reasoning, right, Yeah, I told hi, I'm beyond the law reason. I'm just saying like I I don't think that that. I think that if you gave me the opportunity, here's the thing, I'm talking turkey strategy. If you gave me the opportunity to know what tree he was in, to know where he's roosted up, I would rather know and not do anything about it than to have an idea where he might be coming, probably quietly at night, and try to exploit his coming into that. I would rather just know that he was there and going in the morning. Anyway, it just isn't fail safe. It's not a fail safe turkey way. What Doug, God, I can't even breathe now, let me finish my evolution in Wisconsin turkey hunting, please. So we so we went from noon. So for me, I lost. So that's okay. So for many years we had this neon closure. We could hunt from what basically dawn till till noon. And you feel that they borrowed it from the start up from Missouri. That's it kind of explained that to us from they were selling us on the whole idea of a turkey season. Well, a decade goes by or so I can't run an exact date. Let me start have any discussions about, um, well, why not extend the season late a day. We're losing all this opportunity for hunters to go out and hunt these these great new birds we have. And so eventually we compromised because Lavis just want to just have opened the whole day. But we compromised for a number of years a five o'clock closure. Five o'clock you had to shut down. And then that went on and this guy didn't fall. So then we talked about it again. And I can't remember again, Doug, wasn't that long ago we probably have said open the whole damn day and then also stupp in five days periods, run it all right back to back in the season opened town Wednesday goes all the way to Tuesday and stuff, because must be originally five days would be a Wednesday through Sunday. Boys are killing fifty thousand turkeys a year. Yeah, and yeah, and actually not the population is kind of stabilized. Phone, it's it's um you know, phone this level. You know, we're shooting less now than we were back in the days when we had you know, this five days season, I think, or at least it's not not that long ago. Wasn't that. It's it's so much about turkeys and how how smart they're about being hunted to actual numbers. It's not about so many how many hours in the day we get to hunt. And to your point about the roosting, we've been hunting them now all day until sunset for a number of years in the population hasn't collapsed, you so, And I've tried that where I've I saw him come off fro the roost the morning, I heard him come off the roost, and I go back in there in the evening and sit down in that area. Neither picked me off or whatever. But I've never have gotten that opportunity record shoot that gobbler come back through the spring woods. That never happened. It still hasn't, so I have you. Yeah, I mean we've got roosting areas like where we got the birds this past year, that's traditionally there. But now again it's not that tree. But there's a whole sort of you know, a couple of different points and you're gonna be out there, So there's gonna be turkeys there in the afternoon, just like there's gonna be deer there in the afternoon. Because it's just that kind of place. So, um, yeah, of course it's not fail safe. So I agree with you if what you're gonna see, if we do wind up having problems with turkeys, what you're gonna see, I think before you see any adjustments in that area, you're gonna see adjustments and fall seasons. Sure. Fall seasons are like when you want to get serious, when you go like, oh man, we got a turkey problem or potential turkey problem. That's you're gonna see the triman's coming from these fall seasons that are hen hunts. Oh yeah. In Montana, one of the I think it's region two for turkeys. This spring you can kill two hands. I believe there might be one hand in the spring. They added one. They added a hand to the spring. So obviously that's saying that there's like they've got some and it's I think it's a place where there's a lot of private land and they're just overrun with yeah, and they're they're really trying to knock back the numbers. A thing to keep in mind in a place like Montana is turkeys aren't native there, right, So there are a lot of areas in Montana that have turkeys that would not because winners are so severe that have turkeys that would not have turkeys if it wasn't for turkeys being able to exploit cattle operations ice A Hunt area and basically the southeast quadrant of the state, and it's a lot of remote areas and turkeys are just by May, those turkeys dispersed everywhere, but those turkeys congregate in groupings of hundreds where cattle are being overwinded because they come in and pick grain out of the ship graining operations. And if you re moved those you would all together lose or like virtually lose the population. So I think in those places, because we're always having this conversation people like, oh, like blank is overpopulated or this species overpopulate, and you guys have to bring up like well, by whose measure, like who regards them? And often times you'll find that by whose measure winds up being an agricultural interest. So, yeah, if you've got a non native population of birds that are showing up on some guys farm, four hundred of them show up in November and they're gonna stick around till April, he might be like, by my measure, since I'm bearing, since I'm solely bearing the brunt of this all winter. By my measure, you've always got to shoot some of these hands, because that's when you start trimming into population. And I think our fall turkey season basically does runs now. We never get Oh yeah, it's just just never been much interest me. I was gonna ask you, do you have any idea what the numbers are turkeys killed in the fall compared to the spring. I haven't looked. Yeah. The only guy I know that's really into it was a friend of mine from from back home from school. He's really into because he raises he raises turkey dogs and so and you. In the tenth Legion he talks about this as well. Um. Colonel Tom Kelly discusses this in the tenth Legion that a fall hunting strategy. Well, I'm not telling you boys that, I'm telling the listeners how you're generally hunting unless you're bushwhacking turkeys and the spring. What you're doing is you're you're exploiting the fact that they're in their breeding cycle and you are going out and making the sound of a female in order to lure in the mail. The work it's hard is in Turkey land. How things generally work with turkeys, is it the male gobbles and does his deal in struts and displays, and females come to the mail. What you're trying to do is be so enticing that you kind of undo that and cause the male to come to the female. You're trying to generate some frustration on his part, and he's like, what is her problem? As will Primo says, I'm gonna go show her just how pretty I am. And he comes in and you kill him and the fall. You can't you're not doing that because the hens don't care about you know, you're not. You're not gonna draw in gobblers, but making hands sound they don't care. They're not breathing them. So the trick is is to disperse a flock, because then you need to locate each other. But a human isn't fast enough to disperse the flock. Like a human generally, if you go tearing after a flock of turkeys, they're so fast and wary the way before you get there, they're just gonna run off as a group and not lose track of each other. But a dog is low to the ground and stealthy and so fast that he can get in amongst the flock and spook the ship out of him and send them going off in all manner directions, at which point you set up and start doing like a basically a hurting call that the hens make as they're trying to regroup, and they're just out there going we weep, we weep, an other little noises, and they come back together and you call him in and take a poke at him. We got lucky once and shot two gobblers out of a flock that we had basically kind of called in. But also we're just in the right spot where the flock was, you know, moving down and ridge towards us, and the shooting of the two birds dispersed the flock. And then we're sitting around, you know, Jack John and high five in and all excited. And then they the same thing happened. So we had dispersed the flock, and all of a sudden you can hear hands on both sides. What were they doing? It was? It was everything. It was kind of the cacophony. Yeah. Now, I got a buddy who used to when he kicked up a group of huns, he wouldn't shoot if he kicked up a group of huns. He would kind of like, look the hunsl split, you know, they're like one in his direction, three and at direction to an at direction he would kind of look at like after they all landed, he'd sort of picked like what would be the middle and go in and just with his mouth make a hun noise and pull huns back into him just for funds. He's but also has hunting. Same thing. What I'm getting at is this guy likes the fall turkey hunt because he likes those damn dogs, raises breeds and sells the dog whose specialty is busting up turkeys. There's a guy over in east central Wisconsin that does the turkey dogs and he gets his dogs from some place Virginia. I guess there's there's a I think one of the fun things about people what's hunting dogs is just how into it they get. And this guy drives all the way to Virginia. I get that when you breed a dog, which I forget the the breed now because I'm not a dog personal turkey busting dog, turkey busting dog. And and and he's um John Freezes his name f R. E. I s I think, And he's such like he loves that sports so much that he'll actually take anyone that calls him along. A guy. A guy wrote to me there a day city looked up this guy after reading my article, called him up, found his name in the phone book of Rubber and John invite him up from Chicago. I think took him hunting, showed him a good time. And of course the day I went up a seconds, I think he got one. I think he got one. Yeah, but yeah, that hens are legal games, so no, yeah, I want to clarify, I do not have any problem whatsoever. So long is the stable that that that is you know that you have a good stable population of birds that hunters agree is a good stable population of birds. But in hunting, um sort of traditional use patterns are very important and and management and very important how we make our laws. And I if it had to come down and we had to pick spring or fall, I'm always gonna go song. I think most turkey hunt it's they don't call it spring fund it's spring thunder, right, they don't call that for no reason. It's not fall thunder, spring thunder Turkey. And I just feel like if someone's gonna have to get trimmed out definitely. If we do see lowering turkey numbers and someone's gotta get trimmed out, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna vote for it. Being the other guy, and my guests would be that you won't see that happening. As long as our hunting seasons are dominated by deer hunters, the fall hunt for deer hunting and bowl hunting wives gonna be so popular that that interest in turkey hunting wife is gonna be secondary. And plus you have waterfalling going on. So I just don't I don't think we've ever seen any any evidence in Wisconsin, WAGH in most states i'm aware of that has any problem with fall turkey hunting being a detriment, population irrelevant, basically good recreation. Like the take isn't substantial. It's almost like it's uh coincidental to other kind of hunting incidental incident. Well, okay, it's like Tyson sitting sitting in a tree with a four ten shooting squirrels with his bowl. This is the same kind of thing. Understand he he deer hunts with a four tent. He shoots squirrels with his four ten while bow hunting for deer. Yeah, and it's actually killed deer that way him so and used always say that, see if I can get a turkey that way too. So I kind of killed a turkey off his land. I think now I was on was right on the fence line there though, But that's where he actually did where he actually shot squirrels and then shot a buck. I don't know he was a squirrel hunter. Yeah, well not not not h Murphy level. He doesn't like go to work with the tails hanging off his hanging off his jacket and whatnot. Um. In the fall in the state of Wisconsin, the hunt turkey hunters killed almost five thousand turkeys. How many killing spring? Yeah, roughly they killed five thousand in the fall. Does it say the hand tom breakdown? Uh? And that was just the abstract. I just breezed through, so I didn't get down to the numbers. I see, you're running a Green Bay Packers turtleneck under your shirt for your benefit. Can I make a quick correction though? I was wrong. I was wrong about the Uh, the female hand harvest in Montana in the spring, it was all they increased the numbers dramatically. It's like four, but it's all fall. So there's no, no hand harvest in the spring good because come on, yeah, come on a buddy mine Tommy Edson, Um, you know he's a little bit baffled by no. But he likes sports. He likes college sports. He doesn't like pro sports. But in Washington State they just did the fishing rags. Can remembers the hunting rags of the fishing rags, but they did it in the Seahawks colors. He texts the cover to me and it's like, it's nothing sacred. Pat Durkin, you want to hear the breakdown real quickly. Just gonna close her out, but go ahead. It's a roughly fifty fifty fall. Yeah. Females to males and adult female surprisingly made up thirty of the total harvest. Juvenile hands eighteen, Gobbler's thirty five, Jake's twelve. M Yeah, so what's really incidental? Past? So you're running a Green Bay Packers notebook? That too? Yeah, if you had to pick, if, if if you had to pick, and someone said you can hunt the rest of your life or watch the Packers the rest of your life, what did you pick? Hunting maney in clothes? Good? Yeah, good? I actually miss quite a few games in the fall. Why don't you have a hunting turtleneck? Janni hasn't given me one. Uh. One of my comments on on the Packer Steve will be this is gonna count as your concluding thought. Oh, I forget that. Then I came up with a concluding thought. You know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna give you mine. So now you are too concluding thoughts. Okay, um, I've I've told my kids, I've told my wife, I told close friends. Getting back to your whole stuff about funerals, this is the packers part. The packers stuff. If the day, when the day comes that I die, if I haven't done that will that will? I mean? And they're the ones that have to take care of me. And I guess I should say, when that day comes and they come to write my obituary, if I haven't done enough in my life to fill that obituary with substantial stuff, if they write them there he was a he was a die hard Packer fan. I'll be pissed because I'll think that that's what I accomplish in life, is anyone can be a Packer fan. So you want to live a life so full that when one fills up ex column inches of space. They do not have to get down that part of it. There won't be no no filling of this. It'll be like and the next thing days He had two cats, survived Fluffy and survived by When I see it and everybody will know it's good right. He was a die hard packer. When I see that in people's obituaries, I always feel like, God, that's the best you can come up with for your good old dad. He was a pack or fan is a badger fan. Come on. So that that was the one conclining thoughts. That's my instructions to my kids. That's the one I gave you, not giving you one the one I want to. I want to. I actually did thought this last week. I was down the Southeast Dear Study Group meeting it's doing. It was in Nashville this year, and I thought of you guys, because only studied deer of the Southeast or it's like in the Southeast, it's it's he it's held in the Southeast. And most of the research I do is is from the Southeastern Universities in Southeastern UM all operations that have like hunting clubs on their property and they actually do some research on it, and typically what it is, it's agency people, agency researchers that could be agencies from the federal government, state government. UM. Then also university and their graduate students and their doctoral students come in and get their research on deer and they all sounds pretty good. It's it's to me, I've been I've been going that was st year, gone to it and well you're going for twenty eight years. I started into this. I'll point know that Pat has more stuffed deer in his house than he's gone to that convention am than on this past year. But elk anyway, um so one of the things that must sting a lot in the in the southeast though, because it's a um a growing population still is. I'll say the word two different ways, you know, coyote the way I pronounced it and coyotes the way you're dugging you guys pronounce it. I'll call yeah, and if you really hate him, and then I don't hate him, but guys that do hate him, I find call him that The first thing I thought about you guys, because most of those I know, it's most of the university researchers pronounce a coyote. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. You know the ronella maxim on this right right? Yeah, So that they exactly and so I thought, well, there goes Steve's theory because these guys, a lot of them are are trappers and they do a lot of reason still say coyote, coyote. Yeah, but um, I'll never switch. You don't have to, Steve, But but continue, I'll messing your story up. So there are year you've gone down. Okay, So one one the takeaways when the coolest papers I thought they presented was on was that on coyotes. And this guy named John Kilgual, he's a researcher from South Carolina. He you guys know that the typical theory on coyote um and why they can repopulate so quickly that the more you hammer them, they more they pop up. So this is based on research from the West. Basically that they the researchers looked at cadets out west and said, and more you shoot these things, the more they bounced back. So it's it's a feudal a fool's aaron to try to white pop coyotes. Can I can I add something? Go ahead. I hear this all the time. I hear and and and it's I don't have a hard time like that's easy to imagine. I think it's I think it's from what I've looked at, it's like, sure, that's that's true. If that was the case, then I would think that really pro kyo people would want hunters to hammer coyotes because it would make more coyotes. I like the argument, but they don't. They don't. They use it as a way to say, I like kyles, I want more kyles. You shouldn't shoot kyles because shooting kyotes made more kyles, and you wind up in this weird sort of rhetorical land. Uh. He made that point in one of your podcasts a while back. No, it's it's it's it's a it's a point worth repeating because I think it's it's it's a great point. And So, but what was fast thing about John John Kilgo's research I thought was that so that's the common thought that based on Western research, that the more counties you shoot, the more they will generate. They have a mechanism that's somehow they triggered this compensatory um or what they call compensatory mortality whatever. Anyway, John John's group went out in like over a two or three year period, trapped two or three five coyotes. Start checking to see is there evidence of boosted boosting the population to reproduction. But I found was that no, there's no compensatory reproduction taking place. Her. What's happening. The more the more you whack this one area, the more they come flooding in from the exterior areas. So unless you can have this huge geographic area where you use hammering, the hell of these coyotes, they just keep coming back. And so his completing thought was, it's it's it's futile. We've gotta going to live with these counties. Yeah, they will perhaps adjust your what is at some point, but um that you're not gonna ever stole down this this animal. They're gonna keep coming back, bouncing back. So they didn't find the compensatory thing that head out west. But but but here's the thing though not the thing, but the thing to considered. I think that that reflects that research is we we discussed this before. Well, they're doing there's there's an area in Colorado where they're they're they're not seeing good recruitment on mule deer, and they're worried about an isolated mule deer herd in Colorado, And what they're trying to do is slow down the predation loss of fawns. So in the old days, you might have gone in and tried to do a lot of predator removal work, just generally throughout the year, try to do predator removal work. But what they found is what I think they were going to try was instead of doing it that way where you're like removing predators in October, say in hopes of having a good fawn crop in May, is that you would try to do it in a very targeted way that was removing the predator load. However, temporarily removing the predator load at a precise moment when you want it down. Because of that thing you're saying, you do all the work in October. Oh yeah, you know, we killed four lions out of this basin. We're hoping see a bunch of fawn recruitment, but in that time it's just been backfilled. So to try to work in and go like to come in and do it commensurate, they're not, you know, at the same time, in order to try to alleviate the predator load. HM. That's interesting, isn't that Taking that idea of like, um, you were explaining when we were in Alaska about how Caribo we all dropped their fonds, uh or their calves. I mean you have a short period of time to sort of overload their overload the predator swamping, thinking that if you were to trickle it out over two months, you're gonna lose them all. But they all hit the ground on the same day and they're vulnerable for how many ever hours or days afterwards, you're gonna have some survival. Yeah, And typically it makes sense what you're talking about, because you know, the other thing the researchers always show is that basically those fonds make it two or three months, they're not the point they can run, you know, the different predators and you know, have a decent chance to s Having it said, the first couple of weeks they were like get hammered by you know, it's bears or coyotes, rivers in the area. That's a big predator. But you know, and then there's areas like in Wisconsin and most of the north eastern part of the country where we've had these two animals, counties and white tails, living side by side for at least in modern areas at least a century now, and there does really not have much impact on them. Yeah, I like, I agree with the assessment that there's just that you're gonna have to I mean, how does your cotes kyle through expanding their range right, more people can have to live with them. And what it would take two get rid of them is what things that we've tried in the past without without great effect, with tremendous um unintended consequences, which is that you'd go back into playing the poison game, which is devastating to so many species that think he's right. But I don't think that. I don't think that it would that someone would look at all that and think that using predator control, having that be part of your tool kit and using research to learn how to use it more effectively. I think that it's going to remain a good management tool um as long as it's stays socially acceptable. And I would be like I would, you know, I would be very disappointed if we at some point decided that that it wasn't something we're gonna use because at times it can be very effective in recovering stabilizing populations. And the thing that I always find fastening when I, you know, work on this kind of stuff is the guys who will have a county contest, which can be controversial, and the justification will quick jump to, as we are these counties so that the deer have a chance to liver on this area. And I think that's emails. Just worry about how many how many counties being killed on the highway then, because you know that's just most nothing. So let's just I guess my point. Let's let's argue these things on the fact that you're having fun, you're not harming anything. Um well well yeah, but but but but the pelts too are worthwhile. I don't see why you have to apologize for killing a fur bearer and taking the pelt. But the thing is, well, yeah, you can go look at what they can do with caribou herds by doing wolf work in Alaska. It's not like there are times when it's total effective. Go read up on the history of the forty Yeah. Well, no one's saying that pats don't have an impact. I've never tried to make that claim, but I guess I'm saying the case in kyote. It's hard to say that they're really um, that they are causing problems in some areas, but what can you actually, dude, have stopped it. You know you're not gonna stop that county that eventually they'll probably find a way around that one too, you know, So that's all I'm saying. Huh, Doug, I noticed that we both said coyote rather than coyote. Well, just because you know you want to be here, he kept saying coyote. Soas in my head, I I quit hunting. I've never hunted him. That was incidental shooting the occasional coyote kot um. But and now I'm welcome and was a part of the control during landscape. Well yeah, it's I means they're just out there trying to make a living too. It's really interesting to me out walking around in the wintertime when you can follow and watch how they sort of hunt. They're real good moochers. They have a real their pattern, Like three you know a group of them and you watch their trails and it's like they're hunting the same way. They're either learning from me or I'm learning from them. You haven't figured out which one yet. Many many many years years ago we did a mooch and uh we moved to kylets past me. Uh yeah, I don't have I don't have like when I see one, I don't um when I see one, I don't even like doesn't even I don't I have no thought in my head about uh taking a poke at it. It's not that tasty. No, the last one I killed, we ate. It just wasn't worth it to me. And uh, you know, I sold some when I was younger, and fur prices were better sold with the tax nurvery trade. Um before this is before they exploded in numbers. And now yeah, when I see one, it's just like not even like like there's no part of me that's like, oh man, I want to get that thing. Yeah, I'm fast, I'm fascinating, very very personally, it just like doesn't click. I'll actually watch um segments of shows once while their hunting County West or someplace, or I stumbled into a hunt recently near Lodi where guys were out in their trucks with their hounds and getting ready to do a hunt. And if I hadn't been so pressed for time, I would have stopped and tagged along because I think it's kind of a fascinating process. Oh yeah, that is for sure. But it's like the same thing. I don't watch the packers, but I don't think that it's bad to watch the packers. I just have no desire to watch the packers. I think you've made it clear over the years that you just have no interest in that. It's not like I'm not like making a statement about the morality of packer watching. You you got any concluders, m I didn't know what was that time? Already? You're ready to be done? Huh? Get nothing other topics for me? No, I feel like I know, I mean, I feel like I just have that feeling like, well, we have this this fella. Uh As my concluding thought, I'm gonna Greg w wrote in to uh say that, uh, speaking of the meat tree episode, that really what really stood out to him was everyone's perception of the event in hindsight, and he was surprised to hear me say that I felt a little guilty and regretful towards the experience, which just just how high I would have described my reaction to it. But about a bear attack, yeah, the Bear Attack. If you haven't listened to it, go listen to episodes eight six and eighties seven titled The Meat Tree Part one and two. And uh, and Steve, you felt grateful for the newfounded wisdom, and Uh, I just want to, you know, follow up to him and say that I do feel grateful for that wisdom. You know that we obviously, I'm gonna my tactics now going into Bear country are much better educated, you know, than what we're gonna do when we're out there. Right. Yeah, But I think that he was saying. What he was saying is that you felt like a level of response ability and felt that if something bad had happened, it would have been in some ways on your shoulders. Yeah. Well there was that, and I still feel that way. But I think he was maybe talking and talking about how at the end you and Garret were like glad that happened. That was awesome, and I was kind of like, yeah, I could maybe do without it, you know. And he wants to know if you've changed. Yeah, you want to know if I if my feelings had changed about it. Okay, so if you could snap a wave a magic wand and have it had not happened, would you wave the Wand probably not? Now again, there was there is value in the experience, right, But at the time I just felt like it was it was so intense and it could have gone so awry that that was making me make the call of like, you know what, I rather it had not had happened, you know, thinking that maybe, but if if it's all going to play out the same way and we all walk out of there and get to just talk about it, then sure, why to have a good story. Yeah, no, dirt myth had been carried off and killed. Yes, And he said would you wave the magic Wand of course I'd be like, oh, wave wave rolled dirt. But dirt was a couple of weeks before when we were up there, he had the encounter with that grizzly saw who came down over the hill and he was brushing his teeth, And when we were sitting around talking about it later, he goes, well, I think it'd be kind of cool if I'd get a scar from a grizzly bear. Careful what you wish for, dude. We're magnets for him man, just lurking around. Um, so you would not wave the magic wind? Do you feel like our luck is running thinner? I think it got thick. Now you think it got thick. I think it was getting thin thin, thin, thin, thin, and then that happened and now it's gotten thick, thick, thick thick. Like Let's say you let's say you were all stud in the plane rack right, also the small plane the plane crashes that we all walk away. What are I wouldn't think that we're going to be in another plane crash? And the book Dispatches by Michael Hare, which is his He covered the He covered the vi He was a journalists that covered the Vietnam War, then came home and wrote a book about Vietnam called Dispatches. And he meets a kid in the book, he meets a kid from Miles City. And every day, or not every day, but whenever he gets a list of fatalities, and there in the military publication, he's always looking in there hoping to see someone from Miles City on the list. And Michael Harris, why do you want to see someone from Miles City on the list? He goes, because we're the chance of two guys from Miles City are gonna get killed in this war. So I feel like that, like if you are in a plane, if we're in a plane crash, I'd be like, well, I'm glad everyone lived because that was our crash. We're not gonna have another crash because you feel that way that we've had like our like I think, very very close in that direction. I feel like things were going in that direction and now they went in that direction, and now they will walk away. I don't think that we're still on the slope. I think that that was the valley floor. I don't know why. That's just my feeling. I feel like it was. This sounds like something you or your old man would say, but I feel like that was the valley floor from which we will now climb out, partially because our again, our tactics and are and the way we go about in that country might change. No, it's more, it's not it's not based on logic. It's based on just the way because other things, other encounters. I feel like it didn't other encounters. I feel like there were unspoken words between us and the bear or like you know, but this felt like just hitting the valley floor, it felt like, Okay, that's where that was headed. Now. I expect quietness based on nothing, based on nothing? Well, what brought that up? As I was reading that story about that the Arctic Explorer, I was telling you about Antarctic Antarctic, sorry, and he was saying that every time they dropped a foot into a crevasse, which sometimes can be you know, a couple of inches of foot wine and and that same death, or it can be you know, giant multiples of that right too, and it can be your death down there. But then every time that you punch your foot through, you're just like man, then you know, you're just getting closer and closer and closer, and your luck is just getting thinner and thinner and thinner and thinner and thinner. Yeah. I like that. But let's say you fell into one and caught yourself and climbed out, would you feel like okay, yeah, Like, now, what are the chances of following into a big one again? Pretty high? But you're saying it be less, So it just it depends on perception. Yeah, I hear you. This can't be measured. Aren't you afraid by even voicing this idea that you're bottomed out and going back up, that you're tempting fate? No, no, only because bears don't listen. They're not listening right now. They're they're out in the woods just plotting, but they don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know. I feel that way. It doesn't make any sense. This is how I feel. It's almost irresponsible for me to share my thoughts on it. It makes so little sense. It just seems like an odds thing. You know that the odds are you won the lottery and now you're not gonna win it again, or you lost a lottery in that case, and now do dudes and yeah, do dudes who play the tax on stupidity and win? Are they like? Are they like? Are they like? H man, no point in buying another one of them tickets. They're going out and spending half of their winnings to buy more. All right, did I give you? You took one? I'm good. I feel like I'm back in good graces here, so I'm gonna, you know, I'm just gonna sit quietly for the rest of the time. Thanks for joining us.