00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening hunt don't eat podcast. You can't predict anything presented by first light. Go farther, stay longer. This is an extra special Loose Ends episode. In fact, we're recalled loose Ends where we deal with hate mail. Um, we don't love mail, No, very little hate mail, disappointed mail, outstanding questions, clarifications, the one my favorite corrections. We're a doodle here something He's like non in and in and in any right, and it takes the time to right in and tell you where you're wrong. I love it. But um, there's two ways that it comes. It comes as from a person who is like, man, you know, I want to contribute to the conversation in a constructive way, and those boys should not be misleading people in this way. And I feel like I'm gonna do my civic duty as an engaged listener and set the record straight. There's that guy well love, and there's like this other sort of feller who just has a ax to grind, probably spends a lot of time on Facebook writing mean messages to people. Right first one, I'll bring this one up just like just got it today, just came in today. What are you doing? Honest? Making notes part of my job. This guy, here's what he has to say. My hunting body and I were watching your show what Butcher and a Moose yesterday? Tom Habib is this feller's name? My hunting body never watching your show while Butcher and the Moose yesterday. I'm already I'm already hooked. I'm already engaged by this letter. And he says, we're chatting about the cast of characters that appear on the show and podcast. I don't want to turn this into it if your favorite Meet Eater guy was a character from Game of Thrones, Harry Potter or whatever, who would he be type of thing. But there was one comparison that just leaped out at us, especially after listening to the podcast under the Bear Encounter on a fog Neck, which is talled The Meat Tree Part one. In The Meat Tree Part two, he says, while Steve is the apparent protagonist and gets all the glory, it is clear to us that he is merely the fro Though to Janice's Sam Wise, I e the true hero of the story who just goes out there and straight up get ship done. It is your honest, so do you that's this guy had to say that. It's like that was just a nice fan letter. That's really sweet. Sign that for me. He signed him in a frame it less less, get so full of himself. Let's get so full of himself. Thanks tom um. Did you just set your honest up to just knock him down a peg or two? I swear to it's on top of yeah, coming, it's on top of the heat. It's on top of the heat because I just printed it off this morning. Alright, you can't see me, but I'm sitting here that fistful of print outs. What happens? Does He's come into an account the contact if you go to like the meat the meat eater dot com and go to the contact thing you write a letter. It's like, I get that on one of my accounts and I'll be like huh if I if it catches my eye, I'll be like huh, and I'll afford it to my regular email and there I will print it off and putting this big giant pile of things that keep meaning to bring up. Here's another one about Yannis Yanni's going on and on and on about how there's no difference between the thirty or six and three mag particularly where a guy was saying a guy Yanni was saying, Yanni was talking annoyedly. That's not a word, but Yanni was. Someone was saying, Oh, on this hunt, doesn't matter what hunter it was. He's like, on this hunt thirty all six ain't gonna cut it, um, you need a three win mag. And Janni was going on on and on about how there's really no difference, because he's saying, what's the difference? Who really cares? If you have? It's a thirty caliber bullet, so it's point three zero eight of an inch, weighs the same amount. So it's this projectile with a certain diameter, and this projectile has a certain weight, and it's going a certain speed. And he's pointing out that you have this set thing. You're talking about the same grain bullet, the same weight bullet, the same diameter, made of the same ship. What's the difference is it's flying out of your gun at three thousand one ft per second or what you honey, uh whatever fee per second? Um. As in the den of this idea, I'll point out that when I was a kid. I was born at the at what I call the Great Awakening of the thirty six. You guys lived in the shotgun area, Yeah, Michigan. There's a line at which there's a line across the state in the southern part of the state where if you live like north of that line, you can hunt with a center fire. You know, you home with a rifle. South of that line, you can only help with the shotgun, a muzzle loader. Do you know that? Cow? I did? I did not? You mean you weren't aware of Michigan shotgun rifle line. No, I wasn't, how insult exactly. I'm not well traveled man there. There is such a lot of our Midwest deer hunting states are shotgun only. But you know what they I just gotta I just saw a story about this. There's some new cartridge, some new rifle cartridge that you can now use in the shotgun area. Some giant, some crazy giant thing I'm not real familiar with, some slow lobbery you're allowed to use in the or something like that. Yeah, but it is, but not but something like that. Um So, anyways, prior like when I was born, everybody had a thirty thirty it was called it was known as a brush gun. But then and that's all everybody had. And then right around when I turned fourteen, everyone was going out and buying a thirty at six. It was only like two guns that existed. You either had a thirty thirty or you were anxious about getting your thirty ot six. I had never heard of most guns. When I moved in Montana, everybody had two seventies and three d Win mags. Is like, huh, I was packing the thirty hot six. Probably soon after that's when the short magnum craze started. Right right about it was the first act that first going to first non nine old gun that someone gave to me. Gun I bought was a short mag um. Another side note, this thirty oh six. All the numbers and guns mean different things. What do you do you know what thirty thirty means? Yeah? Thirty Well, originally when it got its name, it was the third The first thirty is for thirty caliber, and then the second thirty was for thirty grains of powder behind it. Okay, thirty oh six is thirty caliber. Come out in six introducing six, so it wasn't new in ninety four. Well, I got a little bit of a jump on the legal minimum shooting age and and and uh got a little bit of a head start on app But anyways, whatever year I had, I was still I was shooting a thirty two special, which was old time even compared to a thirty thirty peep site on it, so Winchester model. Anyhow, this guy writes in to say to take Yanni to task. He says, you guys talked about how the only difference between the thirty oh six and the three wind Meg is velocity, which is technically true, but the argument for the wind mag is not velocity. For velocity's sake, I didn't print this guy's name off, which is bumming me out. For an equivalent bullet weight, what you're really gaining with the three wind Meg versus the thirty oh six is increased kinetic energy, which could loosely be correlated as stopping power. My old man during Whiskey Whiskey to World War Two, my old man said that the sniper shot thirty oh six is m M true. He carried a Tommy gun um and he had a B A R. I believe in the Tommy gun for a while, but he said there's that was the gun that was like the So even back then, I don't want I don't want people to come away me thinking thinking that somehow the thirty out six became cool in the eighties. Um. He goes out to say what the formula for for uh kinetic energy is. But here's the important part. Since you're squaring the velocity. So when okay, I will tell you the formula for kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is one halftimes mass times velocity squared. Since you're squaring the velocity, a moderate increase increase in speed provides more than a linear increase in energy. So, using Yanni's one hundred grain bullet as an example, a three hundred wind meg throwing that one eight grain bullet at three thousand, one hundred and fifty ft per second is putting out three thousand, nine hundred seventy two foot pounds of energy, and the anemic little thirty oh six Yanni's a little thirty oh six throwing the same bullet at two thousand, seven hundred feet per second, So four hundred fifty less ft per second is a full thousand less pounds of connect energy. A seventeen percent increase in velocity yields a thirty seven percent increase in energy. You have it, it's not the same. No, I would carrying this piece of paper on, waving this piece of paper in Johanni's face for months, wanting to bring this up. I want to go ahead, then you can. You can say what you gotta say, Guy goes on to say. Guy goes on to kind of wind. He winds up sounding a little bit like like the eagle, because he goes on to say, that's the physics of it, but doesn't really matter. Ask the smartest hunter, you know how many footpounds it takes to killing elk. I think by that he means they're not going to know. More energy results in increased hydro static shock pressure, but good luck quantifying that. As it relates to killing a large animal, there is a point of diminishing returns, and Janice is correct to say that it is better to shoot a caliber you are comfortable with so you can make a good shot to the vitals. There is also the issue of too much energy in meat wastage. Velocity is obviously also tied the bullet drop, but that's a separate issue that can be solved with practice and a range finder, says odds are good. You guys already know all this. I just need an excuse to take a break from my yard work. Okay, now go ahead. Well, I think when we when I read that email earlier, I didn't catch those the last two where he starts signing like you, Yeah, that was just gonna be my follow up. So you're gonna say the same thing he's I appreciate the man sign off. That was well writ email there. No, he did a good job. Let print his name off. I'll look up his name. Any thoughts about that, Kelly him you shoot a three wind Meg. I love the three mag Yeah, the very similar that. I mean, like, the whole historic lineage of this is a bigger argument than just when you break it down to the numbers, I feel like, because it kind of comes down to experience and what you're comfortable with and what you've seen perform well in the field. And yeah, just the difference between growing up in Michigan and growing growing up in Montana. Um it uh. You had access to different things at different times, and and like you talk about the thirty six coming onto the scene and what that did for hunting and the availability of ammunition that it wasn't really that great because it was all of World War two surplus stuff. I don't think great for big game animals, but that could have made lifelong thirty six fans and lifelong thirty six opponents. Um, which you know, leads you down the path to different calibers. And then there's the there's the old like, well it works for me at which is hard to argue against. It's very hard to argue against. Okay, right, here's the guy exactly my age. He includes his age and he's exactly my age. His name's Brian Um. He goes on to say, spent some years since I've really been out in the wilderness. Your thoughtful discussions with intelligent members of the hunting and fishing and wilderness management community have reignited that love of wilderness and wildness. I was especially impressed with episode seventy two American Wilderness, which highlights how important wilderness is to our national identity and heritage, and that wilderness as untouched lands and quote untouched is somewhat of a myth. We tend to these lands to manage them and maintain their wilderness character. I'm reminded of something I read by Michael Pollen regarding wilderness and his essay The Idea of a Garden from his book Second Nature. He addresses this idea of wilderness where he writes, this is Michael Pollen writing, at this point in history, after humans have left their stamp on virtually every corner of the earth, doing nothing is frequently a poor recipe for wilderness. He goes on to say. Pollend goes on to right, the inescapable fact is that if we want wilderness here, we will have to choose which wilderness we want, an idea that is inimicable, inimical to the wilderness ethic. Interesting bit of follow up, Yeah, don't agree. So what this gentleman, wilderness don't have by accident anymore, and your idea of I guess he's arguing the purity of wilderness. Yeah, that it's a managed landscape in our country's history, I think we like for a long time we had wilderness in spite of our best efforts to get rid of it, and now we have some because of our best efforts to preserve it. That switch happened like around you know, it was a round like worked and work to work, and work to work to to to conquer it, and then we had this like awkward transitional period and then we worked and worked and work and work and work to hang onto some of it. Right. Yeah, absolutely can't. Can't cut a road up there, or I cut a road up there, and the avalanches keep knocking the thing down, So we're just not going to go up there. Made a choice to just quit going up there cutting it. Here's from a guy named Richard. Now this one really struck a nerve with Yanni. This guy is saying this, I've been hunting for the last seven years and yet to close the deal on a deer, so seven years as Feather has been at it. I never grew up hunting, but have always been interested in it. I took up archery and rifle hunting when I turned thirty. My first year archery hunting, I had a spike come in at five yards, but buck fever was so bad I could barely pull in time. Second year, I had a bad shot on a dough at twenty five yards. I was crushed and then wanted to quit after that, so I gather he crippled up a door and ever found her. I moved to Idaho a couple of years ago, so right in your backyard cow. Yesterday I missed a deer at two d yards. My oak season starts on Wednesday, and I'm having serious doubts as the weather I'm gonna be able to do this? At what point do I call it good? In just six sept that I'm not good at it. I hate that I have spent countless hours and time and money pursuing this with very little to show for it outside of rabbits. I think if I quit without getting a deer elk, It's gonna bug me. My hunting buddies think I'm being too hard on myself. But am I? You said one of your podcast you were quit hunting if it was no longer fun and there was no meat. I think I'm at that point. I'm not sure what should I do. Should I press on Richard, no me and no fun? That'd be a good T shirt. No meat, no fun that is a great T shirt. Like my daughter says, she says, well, yeah, we won't have a meal to eat, but we'll have a story. It sounds like Richard's got a lot of stories. Are you truly not having fun? Though? Like I mean, I've had some every he here is Yeah, my god, the misery we could pass on to people if that were possible, But there was always something that comes out of that trip. Seven years. Yeah, I know, it's a hell of a dry spell seven year but you know, I mean, there's so many places to go with this. He's a he's a better human because of those seven years spent. And look, he doesn't say how many days of field per season he's spent. I'm sorry, but Richard might only be hunting a couple of three days. You know, maybe he needs to put in a month of archery hunting and then see where his luck stands. You know. Um, I mean you can like national averages. I haven't looked in a few years, but you know, the majority of the hunting population is getting a long weekend at the most is what gets recorded. So you know, if this guy's getting out during archery and rifle season, he you know, it could be a week total, let's say, or maybe he's hunted fourteen days in his life. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, the years doesn't really that doesn't really work that well. And I think he's only you know, if he kills one this year on his eighth year, he'd be just a little bit less than like the national success rate, right, because I mean we hover somewhere between like ten and thirty depend on if it's archery or you know me for general over the counter success. I'm gonna come at him more practically. I think that, like I think that the guy just kind of gotta have he's a little bit of I think you stick with it. I think he needs a little bit of success. I think the way they'll find that success. I don't know how he's sort of gauging what he's after, but I just have a real hard time thinking that in the state he lives in, if he goes out and carves out a week a time to go out with his rifle and he's committed to shooting a legal deer, he's gonna go spend seven days out in a general unit and and get a nice less than one shot yard shot at a four key deer with his rifle, that he's not gonna be able to do that. I agree. I don't care if you just I don't care what you know. If you can learn how to shoot at one hundred yards and hit and just walk around in the woods and you have in mind that you find the legal deer, a good shot at legal deer and give yourself seven days. I don't think you're gonna come up empty handed. Yeah, I mean that that may be generous. I think our friend Richard is probably like right at that cusp of doing one thing and being like, holy shit, it's that easy. It's all gonna click. Stick with it. Yeah, I really don't. I don't know, man, that's the whole idea of quitment. I don't really get the whole quitting Like I'm not. I quit one thing one time where I was always curious about chess, and my nephew sat down to explain chess to me, and after about fifteen minutes, I was like, never mind, because once I knew that it would take that much just to be sucky, right, I didn't want to get involved in it. I thought it was like a little more complicated than checkers, right, sure, But once I was like, oh that's what chess is, just never mind because I'm not gonna This isn't something I'm just gonna toy with. I'm either gonna do it or not do it. And I see now that I am not gonna like, I'm not gonna devote like I don't have the time to figure this out to the degree that I would want to figure it out if I would start dabbling, right, And and you're thinking that to you, your fund comes when you're at least proficient at something like I like to play Sneaky Snaky Squirrel with my kids. I have I'm able to play at a highly competitive level, right, and I have it dialed so it's enjoyable to me. But chess wasn't gonna be like Sneaky Snaky Squirrel. So where you trying to get all the acorns? Yeah? I guess I am very biased here, but I don't under if I guess you gotta ask you if you are truly not having fun, which I just don't see as as an actual possibility unless this seven years has just been fraught with some series of you know, god awful and unfortunate events. Uh went into the woods, house burned down, went into the wood, dog died, went into the woods. Yeah, if you are truly not having fun, yeah, find yourself a different Yeah. If you're like, you're out there and the sun's rising, you're like sunrise. I hate seeing those. I hate natures that damn birds chirping. Yeah, he probably quit, but that's not what he wouldn't be writing in if thous case. Here's the thing two, Just as an inspirational point, I'll sure um I had a very bad pumpkin year in my garden two thousand and six. Team will go down as a bad pumpkin year. I came out of that wanting to become a pumpkin enthusiast. I've been reading up on how to grow world record pumpkins. So I'm taking like loss and failure and turning it into becoming a pumpkin enthusiast. I'm not writing letters to people about quit and growing pumpkins. Had some stolen the ones I did have her so small they were ridiculed by my wife from children. They went out and bought other pumpkins. Car like the pumpkins weren't good enough for him. We ate one. Okay, our episode of wit Fosberg episode ninety I think it was ninety really touched nerve and read three pieces of feedback about this episode. Maybe yeah, I'm gonna read three pieces of feedback. Here's one. Here's one version of a way to take that. What was with Fosberg from Theodore Roosevelt conservation partnership reached out to us or not when my same reached out to us. Came on the show and we did sort of a walk around the country looking at leading conservation issues around the country that affect hunters and anglers and fishing wildlife, or affect fishing, hunt affect hunters and anglers through their impacts on fishing wild life, and then talked about a couple other like perennial conservation issues that just never really go away. One guy says this to say, thank you very much for it. Guys, I love the wonky conservation talk, and he was very knowledgeable. Thank you for the work that you do with this podcast. Here's where it gets interesting. I'm not a hunter. I have a very stereotypically liberal person and a city planner, but this podcast has helped me become better informed and now I actively support the hunters in my community. There's one way to take that, here's no way to take it. Really enjoy your podcast, to find it informative and interesting. I like the hunting stories, which are the best part of hunting. The historical info, like the history of the elk on Kodiak on the Kodiak Archipelago, in scientific information your guests have on the environment and animal species that inhabit those environments. Your podcast is a great diversion from the current news of the day. He goes on to say some other very kind things. UM goes on to have an observation about feeling uh, you know, pressures being that that are on hunting and wildlife, and it goes out to here's where he airs his grievance. This guy's named advance UM. And it goes on it has some very valid arguments and I and I feel those frustrations where he says, as usual, I noticed you had a new podcast today, episode ninety, so I did my work. I plugged in the earbuds and started listening. I heard a person talk about a lot of various stats and facts on past and current game numbers and making sure access to public lands stay open, et cetera. Then over and over again, I heard this person repeat leftist talking points with no rebuttal from you. Once this person made the statement that the U S should not have withdrawn from the Paris climate cord, I had heard enough and ended my listening session. This told me this person was either foolish, slash delusional or simply a hardcore, unabashed leftist with no rebuttal from you. I have to assume you basically agree with this wolf in sheep's clothing. I obviously do not personally know Mr Fosberg. I'm simply forming an opinion based on his own words. If these are the type of people you support, but which I guess he means. If I would support a person who has a personal opinion about that it was a mistake to withdraw from the Paris climate a chord, then I will move on. It makes your podcast into another a media media attack on people like me. Just be warned that a leftist like this, when the time comes, will cut the throats of hunters everywhere. Give him the chance. Um a couple of thoughts there one advance really like, really gonna stop listening? That is heartbreaking to me. If I had stopped listening to everyone that said something I didn't agree with, I wouldn't listen and talk to you, cal you, Yanni, or my wife or my kids. There would be no one at all I would listen to, and I would just have to separate myself from everyone I know. Put your head in a hole in the ground, put my head in the hole in the ground, because it is unavoidable that you will find a way to only hear things you agree with. So I just feel like you should reconsider if you're out there and you're apparently not, I feel you should reconsider, um the other part of it. And I see this quite often where I finally like, you'll have a guy like with Fosburgh who devotes his life to hunting and fishing. So that's what he did growing up, that's what he does now. He's devoted his life to hunting and fishing, and it it was inspired by his love of hunting and fishing to advocate on behalf of fishing wildlife. And there's like this thing that happens, this sort of movement that happens often you hear like the green decoy thing or whatever, where it's like people go like, oh, if you have some viewpoints that are regard as like a liberal viewpoint, then you don't really actually like hunting and fishing, even though that's all you've done your whole life, and even though your career is based on hunting fishing, you don't actually like it, and you will cut the throat of hunters and fishermen first chance you get. It's like as though looking for the enemies of hunting and fishing, you have identified the people who like it most to be the one who would like betray whereas a guy that hunts and fishes and doesn't give a rats ass about fishing while they've habitat is somehow more trustworthy. Like I like I, I don't understand the perspective. I understand, um, what it's like to be annoyed by someone's viewpoint. Like if I'm talking to someone and they're telling me how they think that under no circumstances should there be capital punishment, for instance, and I'm like, man, dude, I totally disagree. I don't then be like, and you know what, I disagree, and you're gonna be the guy that turns your back on hunters and fishermen. I just like, I don't see that. I don't see the correlation. Yeah, you know something I'd like to bring up with that is that, um, we hear that a lot about who that these people would do this, and you would think that this is like a real thing that maybe over the course of history, over the course of hunters being conservationist, we would have like an example and where these people could be like, yeah, remember so and so that's some bitch. He hunted and fish his whole life. He was just baiting the trap, just baiting the chap and then he did it. He did this whatever some hunting and fishing guys. However, however, he did it, you know, with some legislation or some rule or law or who knows what. But yeah, if you have an example of that, please because I'd like to understand it better. Um, you know, and we flirted around with political discussions all the time. And the reason politics makes me uneasy because I'm fifty real conservative and real liberal depending on what part of the things I'm looking at. So I'm like completely alienated by politics. There's virtually no politician that I respect, um because I, no matter what, disagree with half the stuff out of their mouth. Uh No, here's another guy who said something. Here's here's the kind of that I really like. Here's the guy saying where Wit was wrong about something? So thank you for writing in has enjoyed the last show is to do every episode to keep up the good work. But with Fossburg was incorrect when he said hunting is permitted in Maine woods and waters National Monument. So so the Cadada National Monument. I gin that's how you pronounced is how you pronounce account. You know, it's like one of those annoying names where you're like, no, it's Sherry tells me, yeah, Stefan, not Steve. So he goes on to say it is in fact prohibited in the majority a small portion on the east side of the Panov Scott River. I believe. Now I wentn't check down the mapter and this guy's right. The bulk of that monument you can't hunt. There's a handful of black east of that river that you can hunt. So we were wrong, he says. As a registered main guy, I strongly opposed this, He goes Honestly, I'm very supportive of conservation and preservation efforts with regard to this landscape. He says his opinion the timber industry has decimated the forests of Maine. I say this as a former lagger, maybe a future lagger again, but as a hunter, I am deeply troubled by the loss of hunting access to this large area, especially when it provided the type of remote experience which is steadily disappearing in the Northeast. For this reason alone, the monument does not have my support on this issue. Ryan Zinkie and I agree. Please correct this air and make hunters aware of this law of the loss of this once great opportunity. We cannot stand to lose many more of such areas. This guy's named Bill. Bill. I totally agree with you man, in any case, in any possible scenario, hunting and fishing and in my opinion, hunting and fishing should be allowed on national monuments only, not only because I believe in extending hunting and fishing access wherever possible, just as a jet as a rule, but particularly with national monuments, because why deprived the This is like the side thing. Why deprived the monument of that level of engagement from the public. The best buddies you can have, The best buddies you can have when it comes to wildlife management and land management is the hunting and fishing crowd. Stay on their good side you will have. Right now, we're having this big national debate about the legitimacy of monuments. When having that argument and fighting that fight, you should have hunters and fishermen on your side. What was Cold Dad Uh Woods and Waters National Monument before it was a national monument. That's not the place that was collections of public lands. I believe there's a huge private in holding too. Isn't this the bird's bees wax story? I don't know? Trying to find out more quickly. Well, this feller is calling it a loss. Yann to keep checking it as we go. We'll return to this idea in a minute. I hate to think that it jumped into this unprepared. Well, I'm just doing mail. We're talking about this guy, Quentin hunting. Oh, here's a good one, right for this calian. This brings up two points you wanted to bring up or tease them up. Scott says, Hey, I was just listening to this podcast and you were speaking about certain species of fish you need to bleed and others who don't. You brought up the fact that most of the species you bleed are red meat fishes. I believe the reason you bleed some species and not others is because of the types of muscle they possess. White flesh fish such as walleye and perch have muscle compositions of primarily anaerobic muscle because of the burst of motions swimming style they employ, meaning fish lays in the bottom kind of chills. See something he wants to eat whilst ass over there and grabs it real fast and then goes back and chills out like anaerobic bursts of energy. Salmon, on the contrary, presents possess primarily aerobic muscles because they participate in sustained swimming. Yeah, like a salmon doesn't go land the bottom in the ocean. He's like a plagic fish cruising around all the time. This guy goes on to say the aerobic muscles require higher rates of respiration, which need a greater blood supply to the muscles. I'm not positive about this, but the correlation seems to be great, and the theories seem to be backed by what I have learned in my collegiate classes. Just food for thought. Now, this aerobic anaerobic muscle thing is interesting because if you look at like, think of game birds, all the game birds, you know, waterfowl upland which ones have white flesh breasts and which ones have dark flesh breasts kyl Yeah, Well, pheasants r at the ditch chicken classic white white meat bird chills out and has an occasional explosive flight rough grouse chills, occasional explosive flight, dark meat, not dark dark um, not like a goose. Birds are kind of in this category, a little darker. It's a spectrum. It's a spectrum, sure, but it's a little dark tim a little darker. No difference in behavior. Yeah, but what I'm talking about is this, I'm talking about talking about waterfowl. Oh yeah, waterfowl s. No goose breast very dark. This guy would get up and he's gonna cover hundreds of miles in a single flight, sustained flight, dark dark meat. Yes, and think about a wild turkey. Where's the dark meat on a wild turkey? All the legs up on his feet, one and around all the time, white breast, short bursts of flight. Yeah, now, now here's a weird deal. You look at a sage grouse. I think got a sage grouse. His thighs are lighter than his breast. So I don't think it's a universal principle, but it is interesting. And just to bring it back around to the fish thing, I think that there's something too it. I have like grown up fish and fresh water in the Great Lakes, right. I never once met a guy who bleeds waally or bleeds perch or bleeds bluegill. Yeah, you know, and then most guy, anyone that knows anything, bleeds salmon. And you and I are ripped a couple of gills on rockfish just because just out of habit and there's nothing happens. You know. My brother said, I was asking my brother Danny, who is a fisheries biologist, about that rock fish has such a slow metabolism, has such a slow sorry, has such a slow like slow low flow blood flow. Yeah, that when you bleed him, it doesn't force any blood out. Yeah, super small heart moves very slow because they're living to be twenty years old. You know. There's an idea about animals. It's kind of like roughly is like a heart is good for so many beats. You have a finite amount of beats, yeah, because you want to like like how long is a mouse? Like what's a mouse's heart rate? And like mammals, okay, what like what's a mouse's heart rate? Very high? And how long does it live? Very short? Very low lifespan. So there's this idea that like a heart's good for so long, how long you live? It's like how long it's gonna take you to suck up the heartbeat that how long is it gonna take you to to use up your allotted quantity of heartbeats? And then it isn't being kind of interesting when you look at heart rates and life expectancy of different mammals and our our friend here is getting an extra beat every now and again. Yeah, and yeah, he's burning through it even faster because of his problem. No, yeah, I mean that's what I'm telling you, guys, say that the people that suffer from that severe venturacle techiardia might be pronouncing that wrong, but that that's like, that's the the bad symptom of it is that your hearts doing too much work that it shouldn't be doing, and it's gonna wear out faster sooner. Yeah. Do you want to talk meat? Yeah? I can do another meat one. Yeah. We can come back to this cataton thing too, if you guys want to. I can just reach like a real quick paragraph paraphrase paragraph from Wikipedia on the history of it, please, so we could at least know so. Roxanne Quimby, co founder of like Cal, said, bird's bees, like soaps and whatnot. Yeah, have sticks stuff began purchasing land near back to State Park in two thousand one before formally announcing their plans in two thousand eleven, and the land would one day become part of a national park. But there was state and federal opposition to those to those plans, and so they changed the focus to doing a national monument, which could just happen through uh the Antiquities Act and the proclamation by a president. So they did that on um well, August six. They donated land valued at sixty million, plus twenty million in additional funds for operations and then a commitment of twenty more million in future support to the federal government so they could keep the thing going. So then August August sorry, Obama proclaimed thousand, five d sixty three acres of land as the Canada Woods and Waters National Monument. So that's only beef with what was his name, Bruce, I can't remember with with with with you know him right in that they bought it up, so they didn't buy it from the state. So that's totally like, that's totally in the gates. Yeah. See, it's such a confusing world. This is the monument issue is incredibly confusing, and the issue from my perspective, is always that each one is much more of an individual versus let's say wilderness. Right, people have a basic understanding of wilderness. Uh, probably because of the name. They're like, oh, yeah, it's a whild what what flies and what doesn't fly? And what flies and what doesn't fly? Right, And most folks who go outdoors can be like, oh, yeah, wilderness. I think you can't ride your bike in there is and you can't operate heavy machinery, you can't have a chain. Virtually true. Virtually true. You're right, Um with the monuments. Uh, gosh, man, I have no excuse not to be fully up to date on this story. But I believe because of the nature of you're going from private land, uh, acquired by the federal government. Um, that came with some strings attached. Yeah, I'm sure so that may all right? Damn it, yeah, damn it should should have been more well r at on this one. Well, you know what, you know, I could go in. I have the power to go in and make it. This conversation never happened, and that the letter never came. You're just going through your mail. But I'm not gonna because I'm just gonna leave it over to the fact that like, um, it's a tricky, complicated world out there, you know. Yeah to the gentleman that road in, yeah, check that out man. Maybe the feller, the b guy that bought up all the land, whoever used to own it, was like, come on, come all, hunting fish all you want. So maybe that's what's going on. Yeah, it's it's possible. I um, there are ways, uh to make some changes, Like let's walk through this one as it just to explain like a way that a public land thing can become public. We haven't talked about Sabanosa, Am I saying it right? Sabanosa? Okay, Now, in New Mexico, you have a wilderness area that was completely landlocked, and landlocked is and landlocked means we had a a federally managed, publicly owned wilderness area that you couldn't get to because any road there was no road access to it. There was no way to walk into it without crossing private property. So the wilderness area was basically a playground for anyone who happened to own a joining land. There was no legal way for you to like park your car and walk into the wilderness. And because it's wilderness and you can't fly in and land a helicopter. There was no way to get there. Yeah, unless you wanted to pay uh an access fee or uh perhaps going with an outfitter that was operating off of one of those private holdings, so you could pay your way in. You could pay your way in. But think of, man, it was off to the work and stuff. It was cut off to the work and stuff and what and think of the incentive to keep that stuff locked up at your landowner. You get an extra ultimately twenty thousand acres. Yeah, it's like I own a hundred acres, but actually I opened one acres because only me and a select few neighbors can get into this block in this chunk land. So a guy, this is a cool story that just happened. The guy owns one of the there's a guy that owns one of these ranches that borders the wilderness aary, the Sabinosa Wilderness. They owns one of these ranches, and his ranch is a bridge. There's a bridge between this wilderness area that the public owns but can't access in the road and public easement. Yeah, he comes to the federal government and says, I'd like to give you guys this ranch I would like to donate this ranch to the American people so that the American people can access their piece of land that they're now not able to get at. It took a little wrangling and Senators you Doll and Heinrich from New Mexico got involved in helping to orchestrate this deal, and Interior Secretary Zinkie got involved and how to orchestrate this deal, and it just became official. The ranch is now the property of the American people, managed for them by the federal government, and it is now an access point and trailhead to go into the sabinas the wilderness area. Yeah, I believe it's managed by the BLM. Is who's in charge of that wilderness they I was just hunting to patch a ground not long ago, and there's a lot of like equipment ship laying around out in the mountains and a body mismy. He's like, dude, this used to all be private. It was purchased by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation willing seller, willing buyer. It went up for sale. Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation took donor money, which is what the kind of their specialty. They took donor money bought the whole damn place and handed it over the BLM to manage. I didn't even know this. I've been hunting on it. Didn't even know that it was like r M e F purchase to become public land. Public land has there's like some complicated stories there, man, very complicated. Yeah, And and unfortunately on whatever side of this um, whether you'd like to see everything privatized or everything public, you can tell a pretty convincing story on either side, because nothing's totally black and white. Yeah, there's a guy I want to have on the podcast I've been reading up on lately who um Uh. His deal is is that public land doesn't really exist. His deal that like public land basically any public land that was traditionally grazed by livestock people is basically like a collaborative ownership between the grazer and the government. And there's no real such thing as public land as we understand it now. He thinks it's all a sham and it is this coming out of the basis of he comes out of the egg industry. Okay, but it's not like a land has no value until it is cultivated type of thought. Yeah, that kind of I think he I think he comes out of that angle. Okay, I'd like I want to get I want to contact him and have him on um. You know, I don't like. I like, even if he's right, I don't really care, right, I don't like like if someone said, you know what, I've looked and looked and looked, and it turns out that you should be able to enslave other individuals. I've I've studied the Constitution, and it turns out if you read it the right way, the way I interpret it, there's no problem with you going over to your neighbor and enslaving him at gunpoint. It's legal. I wouldn't be like, okay, sweet, I'm gonna go and and enslave my neighbor now, right, Like, I don't really care, because it would still be it's just like, you know what I mean, convert still be like, well, yeah, that might be true, but I'm not going to do that. Right, But I still like to talk to the guy that Sabonosa. There's a bunch of groups involved in that. And uh, I gotta go down there and and uh kind of take a quick tour of the place when Zinki visited, and and uh it's sweet country in there. So you had a look. Oh yeah, yeah, I had to look. See Now did you go down there? Were you, like in the company of the various political figures who were gathered down there? Yes, yeah, yeah, so I was invited down through you know, really a bunch of mutual friends, uh all of us UM and uh the National Wildlife Federation New Mexico Chapter UM has been a big part of that. UM back Country Hunters and Anglers UM uh and so so many groups at that point because it's been going on for over ten years, UM that I really shouldn't be listing anybody because lots of lots of folks involved. But really you do all Heinrich, the county commissioners blm um, they've they've really made it happen. So yeah, but gorgeous country odd ab uh invasive species but uh cool cheap country in their big elk, big mule deer. One of the volunteers kind of took me aside and they're like, hey, here, you're mule to you're gay. Yeah, check this out. And I was like, oh my goodness. So one of New Mexico Senators, Heinrich, who was involved in this while he was a senator. He went in to uh when National Forest was he hunting in It's the big name brand one that everybody we hunted it before him. Yeah, I'm sorry, I just kidding. Yeah, one of New Mexico senators while a senator went into the HeLa on a on a permit draw muzzloader hunt and killed a bull out with a muzzloader. Bad country. He's an end user, which is damn rare. Yeah, not many dudes in the Senate. Paul Ryan likes a hunt a lot. I don't know. I don't really know what all hunting Paul Ryan does. I know Paul Ryan likes to hunt a lot. Um tim it's important. Hinrich likes the hunt. Yeah. Yeah, Paul Ryan is a big bow hunter. Yeah, big time. I don't know how much time he has for it now, So I got that guy spends a lot of time sort of situations out. Sounds like his neighborhood's pretty tough. I'd like to talk to him sometimes about hunt and yeah, and Heindrich likes it a bunch. No, just started listening to the podcast going backwards through him. That's cool. He's on the fish Shack and episode. Okay, never mind, all that. The guy's a sushi chef and you wanted to comment on something. We're talking about salmon making sushi and sashimi from your salmon, and how it's hard to get it the way that that that it is in a sushi restaurant. Yeah, and we're also talking about how most people won't do it with the coho that we had caught and that we were doing it with. Ye, and we're like, is it not the way? Yeah, We're like, is it not the way? It isn't a sushi restaurant because of what something we're doing, or is it because it's a coho and you'll never get it? To be right, I felt we felt like I've gotten a pretty good slice on it. It looked good, the presentation was nice. Just wasn't the same. That was a little different. But I'll point out I'll point this out to as a prelude to this guy's comment, Um, salmon have a high parasite load. And this is no joke Like I used to. Usually stuff like this, people start talking about food safety and all this. I usually brush a lot of that off and I pay the price for it. But I usually brushed all that stuff off. But it's no joke. Salmon. If you're eating raw salmon, you need to freeze that salmon and thought out they need it row. It's come from a guy who's eating pounds of it. Not done that way. But I've had a lot of people who are not hysterical and who are not sky is falling kind of folk who have said, bro, you gotta freeze it. You'll get sick. It's real. Oh yeah, I think I've been on the flip side of that coin. Anyways, this brother is saying this, and this is a great tip. I just I called my damn brother to tell him this. This guy's name is Kaido, it's a nickname. He's a chef and hunter from Michigan. He says, here's where you boys are screwing up. You need to take a sam This is for making sushi and sashimi out of salmon. You need to take that thing and cover it in kosher salt for eight minutes, absolutely no longer than ten minutes. Packet in salt in order to pull the extra water out, then freeze it, then slice it. What he's saying is this, When you freeze that thing, the water expands, the cell walls burst, because of water comes out. That's why when you vacuum seal a piece of salmon, right, you vaccal there's no water in there, whatever whatever, hell, but whatever your vaccal, there's no water in there. Putting your freezer thought, there's a few tables of water and you're like, where did that come from? It's being liberated from the fish through the freezing process, and it leads to a mushy quality product. He's saying, you gotta suck a bunch of that water up out of there by packing it and salt, pull some of the extra water out, and that is what gives you that firm buttery what he describes as the amazing buttery texture. Mm hmm. I can taste this. Yeah. I think One question about it though, is that after you take it out of the salt, Yes, do you just absolutely rinse it? Rinse it right? Yes, because you're never gonna I mean, how you gonna brush it off? And let's say if he says it skin flay. Also, you think I'm getting I would. My guests would be Kaido. Can he has to rewrite in now? Yeah? Mom, guessing that he's he's got to be skinless. I don't know. I don't know. I can see both ways kind of right back in. Dude, Well up, no, not skinning it. And but I'm gonna listen. I think he's onto something. I know exactly what that something Gunn is talking about. Okay, what was the two things you were going to bring up? Oh, this is just having your ear to the railroad tracks. Yeah, exactly. Dry aging or just aging meat? Is it necessary? Does it actually make a difference, um my experience? If I think it's always better to let things relax for as long as you can stand it, at least twenty four hours, I'm gonna butt in at least twenty four hours because that's how long read it takes for the brigamoret. It's too enter and then leave. Yeah, however, I've done it immediately to several hours after, just based on what's happening in life. And it's not like that's meat that is not good as far as the aging goes. You mean, like aging of a couple of hours doesn't matter. Like, it's not like that's meat that I then think is not any good. Oh no, it um it uh. It's not like don't even go through the trouble if you can't hang the thing in your garage for twenty days. I'm tracking no, ye, sorry about still probably real good depends on the animal, yes, but in general, think of it in extremes. I think of extremes if you shoot something and butcher and you're eating an hour later. It has a metallic taste and it is very tough because it's still in rigor. Yeah, and for me almost it almost gives me not really like a belly ache, but sort of like a gurgly just kind of an off stomach. Whatever it is that it's going on in there, it seems like and again it could be just uh, random occurrences, but unless you had two of you, yeah you would, you'll never know. Never know. When I eat meat it's too fresh, I just get I don't get sick. I'm just like, man, something just wasn't quite right. I'll definitely eat it. But it's not a let's they say it's not as good, and then do you need to have a climate controlled situation. I've never personally had that, um so, but I'm always afraid to answer people's questions on an age all kinds of Let me let me tell you. My brother ages me so so he he lives in Alaska. Um. He's Ali was hunting in September and has been up in Alaska in September. Um, you have cold nights, very warm days. Everything's all wet. There's flies everywhere, meat bees around everything. It is not conducive to like yard hanging. It's not conducive to garage hanging. All you do in Alaska is beat flies off stuff. Right just you're not gonna hang it. Just it doesn't work out. September hunting in Alaska. Agent meat like in your garage is gonna happen unless you built the cooler and you can ring up some little dorm fridge. But you're not gonna hang a moose in there. So he when timing out his wild meat calendar, he doesn't think like, oh, I gotta have last year's moose and caribou all eating up by September first, because then I'll have my new moose and my new cab when I'll start eating them. He times that where he wants to have last year's all eating up at some point in the winter because his moose has been freezer aging, which I believe, and some people freezer aging. What do you mean, well, stuff deteriorates in a freezer. It just takes a long time to do it. You will never all out, but two years you will never pull out. Let's it's two thousand seventeen and you find a piece of meat from two thousand fifteen in your freezer. You will never find a tough piece of meat that's two years old in your freezer. Well, I think the same thing is having to meat that the guy just explained is happening to that fish. Yeah, it's breaking down, yeah, you know, because the water molecules are there and freezing. It is breaking down the like the you know, on like the molecular structure, you know, And the longer it's in there, the more it happens, and things just slowly break down. M hm. And then uh, that's the problem when you find mab coming out of the permit frost. Well, unless you have one of those freezers, that's uh. Like, what's that crazy ice cream? I think it's called dipping dots. It's got I've got an uncle who sells it at a or it's my wife's uncle. He sells dipping dots at an amusement park that he owns. And they when they started, when they became a purveyor of dipping dots. They to have a special freezer that doesn't just stop at zero. It's like negative thirty or negative forty, because there's such high fat content in the dipping dots that if you just free hold it at zero or thirty two, it's it's gonna go bad real fast. Right, So he's got a special freezer that goes down to negative thirty or negative forty, right, just for these ice cream Well, he's like, yeah, side bonus of that is I was able to throw a few elk steaks in there, and five years later, still go my deep freeze. I'm looking at I'm looking at the thing right now. My deep freeze runs at negative fifteen, which is quite a bit colder than my kitchen. Do you have it maxed out? I'm gonna start doing that. I was trying to find like the efficiency level, but I'm gonna quit. I got a lot of fish in their man, and I'll just to keep my fish cold. I do some other age and stuff. When is too old to cold? No, too old in your freezer. I personally looked at something and been like, Nope, I'm gonna throw it away, just physically cannot do no. My sister him doesn't allow for things to get anywhere near the point at which I would call him into question. But I could say that my brother Matt once found some seven year old elk meat in a freezer and enjoyed it. Not his elk, mind you, he found it in a freezer. I've never had a problem to it with. And the oldest stuff I've always eaten has been elk, just because when I was living in Colorado, it's like everybody had elk in their freezer, and oftentimes would be at someone's house and they'd go, oh, look at that, you know, and you'd end up with some three or four year old elk. Never had a problem with that, but I do think that fish, oh you can get there, dude. Like Oh, for instance, last night we ate the last package of blue cat from UH from Kentucky and that was half ago. Yeah it was still good, it was edible. We enjoyed it, but yeah, it wasn't quite the same. I my like I was saying, how I keep fishing my big deep freeze. I high prioritized fish. So my the peak fish for me, peak fishing the freezer for me is August Lay July August, when I'm at my cabin lot fishing lot in lot sam in the hell. But whatnot dude around now, I'm very much like looking to be having that stuff getting wrapped up. In fact, I'll be. I think I pulled out my last salmon and just smoked it. I saved one piece, I think, because I do, not because freezers don't stop activity. Yes, I've had big chunks of bear fat. I froze big chunks of bear fat, fixing to render it later, and had bear fat actually go rancid in a freezer. Yeah, the fat. Question Number two on this is call fat. Now that's something. Sorry, you guys have hit Do we just blow a fuse? Um? No, I think that your freezer just just turned off, but not like off off. It just turned off, as in you gave me a look. I thought we blew the fuse. Oh sorry, about to pick that back up? Go ahead, cow call fat? Can I can I touch on something more about aging? Oh? Yeah, for sure, I also age. Here's again, I can't tell you like the scientific proof any of this stuff, but this is based on a shipload of anecdotal evidence and experience and observations of trusted close friends. I will also pull a piece of meat out of my freezer. Let's say on a Sunday, I might though a block of meat out. Oh then rinse it, thought, rinse it, padded dry paper towels, put a big roast on a rack, set over a dish, and put that in my fridge. No one that I'm gonna cook it in five or six days. So here it's already been butchered, frozen, thought, And now I'm doing a fridge age on it. Mm hmm, which I feel like it's helpful. I think you can because you asked, can you age too long? Right? Yeah, we're hanging out with a chef and we actually tried some of his meat and after we carved through many layers of really inedible stuff, is that what it was? And um and this and this was in a you know, uh um, climate band humidity controlled but um, and it wasn't that the meat was bad. It was taste tasty. It was way different. You know, it's just not like you're eating a deer steak anymore. But there was so much loss due to drying that you're kind of like, all right, well, now I have like of this meat left. He found the too long. Yeah, he found it too long. But at the point is, you can go a long time without going too long. But when you're cutting the hoping it was an odd d shoulder, When you're cutting open the clod on an audad shoulder in order to get a piece of meat the size of a a stick. As a jolly rancher, it's like you've lost a lot, Yeah, from from and then so mule deer. I just I butchered, uh the mule dear that I got the in October. And then I butchered two front shoulders, just the quarters. Um uh that Scott Robinson got about ten days earlier. And this was just on Saturday. And the difference in the front shoulders, um just that ten days difference between so mine mine hung twenty five days, his hung thirty five days. Um. The shanks on his, I was, you know, kills me to leave any meat in there. But there they had reduced so substantially at for most folks probably wouldn't be worth digging out that slivery good meat. So I've seen tenderloin's uh just vanished, Oh yeah, from hanging too long. My old man who tells me that when he was young, younger, they would hang dear until it had inches of mold on it. I don't know if he was exaggerating inches instead of be covered in mold. And you'd cut that away and eat the meat off from underneath it. And do you think those were whole deer they had? Now we one time hung we one time hung a calf elk and never froze it, just ate it and that thing after hanging it was like the perfect winter in the garage. And after a while you could jab your finger into the meat. I mean like you could literally burrow your finger into the meat. They got that tender. Just perfect conditions blow a little bit below freezing at night, not much above freezing here in the daytime. We was ate the whole sun bitch hanging there. Yeah, because you know the feeling on knees. Um. You know some majority blow free using nights um. You know basically what you're describing. But you know that those hind quarters were still. They weren't like frozen hard to the touch, but you wouldn't call him soft. Yeah. I killed a bowl in Kentucky, bullock in Kentucky. And because we were leaving from there to go to somewhere else to hunt. I had to have a processed, and the processor says, oh, I hang him for ten days. And he hung that out for ten days, and those suns bitches were still tough. Mhm. It was only later I threw him the freezer and forgot about him for a few months and started snacking on him. They were good. Yeah, all right, if you want to bring up a call fat, yeah, call fat. Uh. I know the you know, the show obviously has covered it. And because you guys have used it in some cooking specials and done it some cooking, done it in a lot of social media pictures. Yeah. I got interested in it because when I was working on my book, where I was talking a lot about a Scopier, the great you know, famous master chef, French master Chef August Scopier. Who who comes up? Who's brought They bring him up in the movie Apocalypse. Now you know when when uh, Captain Willard in Chef get off the boat to find a mango, find a mango and get attacked by a tiger, and Chef is like, never get off the boat, never get off the boat. He is explaining to Captain Willard that he studied sauces. He was a saucy a and culinary arts school in New Orleans and mentions the scopier it's a beautiful movie, best movie ever made, the best movie ever made. So anyhow call fats so oh no, no quick. I got interested in because the scofier cooks with it, duh, like sausages and stuff like that wraps me like the same way you use the turkey bag now or whatever. Just wrap steaks and rolls and other stuff in the call fat to prevent moisture loss and add fat. So I'm doing uh this this coming weekend. I'm I'm I think I'm gonna smoke, I think, or just try to slow roast. I brought out that the onlier I got this year. I brought up the neck hole, which we lead into a CWD conversation. But I'm sure these folks will be fine. Uh, and I'm gonna wrap that in the call fat is the plant and I got it is this is like super This thing is not started to rut. It's like super thick call fat um. But the main questions are, how do you get the call fat out um in one piece? Uh? Is it worth cleaning? Is it worth dealing with. I don't like the taste of deer fat. I personally like the taste of deer fat. I just think it's to be next to nuclear hot in order because as soon as it cools down, it is like paraffin wax. Yeah, it's like that Simpsons were Homer drinks candle wax in order to better compete in the hot Pepper eating cut is exactly. You cannot get that off your tongue, your teeth. Yeah, but when it's hot, I'll eat it so um. Yeah, call fat, get it out? How to get it out? How to get it out? You're gonna tell him? I think you should. You're you're the expert. Uh well, Yanni. I heard Yanni explaining to someone there day, and Yanni's explaining, only even begin to think about it. When you're shot is forward of the diaphragm. It's gotta be where everything's clean. It's like you open up, you're shot, enters and exits forward of the diaphragm. Doesn't matter where, but somewhere forward of the diaphragm, because you don't want any Everbody's gonna be all nicey nice in there. And when he brings up a point too, so you're gonna obviously got it to get the call fat when you go to gut it and don't, like, don't get all the way through your gutting to the point where you're cutting the track and yanking the guts out. At that point, you're too late. You're gonna get blood all over the call fat. You're gonna roll it out into the dirt and the grass. You need to just open the lower half like from the you know, diaphragm down you're treating this as an autopsy. Open that up and then say, okay, now I'm gonna take the time to get my call fat. Yeah. You can't butcher like they do in the Mel Gives the movie Apocalypto, or like how they butcher in the movie Red Dawn. In movies and movies, when someone goes to butcher gut something, people that would definitely know better, like in the case of Apocalypto was the Mayan hunters um or in the case of Red Dawn, there was lifelong hunters who were trained up in the ways of Jet Smith. But when people want someone to butcher something in the movie, they like to use a big knife and have people jab stuff because it's dramatic. They don't show what how you'd actually do it, which is surgical surgical, Like I said, you're performing a nice clean autopsy. Yeah, when I first started dealing with TV folks, they'd be disappointed when they saw how you want a knife you'd actually use. You'd be like they'd be like, oh, but could you do with a machete. They're just like, yeah, like really you do it. That's a little teeny thing. Oh slow and easy, you know, just stab it. So, um, yeah, you shoot it. Everything's for the diaphragms, there's no mass. It's laying on its back. This doesn't work with the gutless method. Um, you unzip it very carefully. First, just cut through the hide all the way up and then lift the abdominal lining or the abdominal muscles. Cut those open all the way up. But before you cut the diaphragm back, you should open it up and just everything is wrapped up in lace fat or call fat. It's just this spider web cobweb looking membrane of fat that is a literally a sack around Yeah, the sack around the guts and on a good animal and good condition, it's like, holy sh it. There's a lot of fat in there on a bad animal and not a bad animal and animal and poor physical condition, who's exhausted as fat reserves. It's just it's like non existent. It's like really a thing. It's like a way they store fat. Agreed. But it's fun to mess with. So because we're always talking about it, it's like part of why I like it is it's cool looking, it's fun, it's cool looking, it's interesting. It's a throwback to a bygone arrow. When people use it more often, it's a good history lesson, it's good anatomy lesson. Um. But anyways, I'm always talking about it. I'm always like kind of celebrating it, and it has like really appealing visual qualities and people are like, dude, I need to get some call fat. But I'll point out it's like it's a fun, interesting, educational thing to mess with. But it's it's tallowe yes, So is it worth it? It's fun to mess around with. Yes, I am looking at this call fat as it's gonna be super pretty beautiful and it's providing a bunch of lubricant to meat that doesn't have it for a little membrane. Yeah, And it's and it's gonna be a relatively long cook on a big chunk of meat. So as any thoughts, um, Yeah, because you got pinned down on this, you were saying at Thanksgiving this year, I got pinned down a bottom the airport there to day, but a stranger. Yeah, And to that, I want to say that, Look, man, I think we're still maybe we've done it more than the average joe, but we're still kind of beginners with the whole call fat thing too. And I think we're learning because like that you did when we were on a falling neck, right, we chopped up a bunch of guts. Yeah, we had some tender loin in there too, and yeah, heart kidney, and then we wrapped and call fat and roasted over the open fire. But we use, like, you know, four square feet of call fat to wrap up two pounds of meat. It was too much call fat, right, if you had to do it again, would you do it with less? But I did because it just makes it strong or strong or stronger. Yeah. But so so my point is that we're like learning, and I think we're gonna learn like different things to do with it and proper amounts and sort of like the way to cook with it, and you know high heat, low heat, dada da da da, and you know maybe you roast in your neck over three hours in it. We're gonna you know, I'm sure we'll learn something from this side. No, how did you guys do on the kidneys? I have not I have not nailed that. I think that they're good when they're better on younger animals by far. Like I've got to the point where like an old deer, do you noticed deers like old I don't mess the liver because the liver is so strong. I like it on young animals. And if you look at like any cookbook that's talking about like cooking with kidneys, they're insistent on young animals. People eat like lamb kidney. We shot a lamb in New Zealand. Have feral sheep in New Zealand. We shot a lamb New Zealand. Holy ship. Long as kidneys, everything is so good liver, but they just get stronger. I think the older deer have a stronger liver. You don't know, It's funny because it's just like rediscovered what we already knew when we were kids, Like pull the livers out of dere But Jared's like fawn liver. When you shot a six months old deer in the fall, it was like that liver was the money the shoot older deer. My mom would soak the liver and lemon juice to try to pull some of the funcation out of it to recover cover the call fat fats covered. Oh, I want to add another scofier thing. And I did this when I was working on my book about a scopier. I did it with a wild pig bladder scope would take bladders and rinse it out and then soak it in a little bit of a vinegar solution. Then you take a little game bird it's a squab, like a flightless street pigeon or game birds or any kind of thing, and take all kinds of good stuff to eat, like chop up onion, garlic, mushroom, other stuff like make like a mere poi carrot and put a game bird inside the bladder and pack all that that that mere poi like, pack that around it, all that sauteed carrot, mushroom, onion, garlic, all that stuff, and just pack it all the way around there and tie the bladder shut and then just put that bladder with the bird living inside of it, poach it and broth, and the bladder turns like a rainbow color, and you just keep you're poaching the bird at a low temperature inside the bladder, and eventually, when it's time to eat, you snip open the bladder and take out the bird and all that stuff that you were cooking inside that bladder. So it's just like a way that you were He was like, because they weren't, you know, in his time, you weren't dealing with like synthetic liners and stuff. You're just used looking for like in that case, you're looking for a non per non permeable membrane and the original Suvi Yeah, exactly exactly. In the in the absence of Suvie bags, he was using bladders, and I cook birds that way. It's fun. They're beautiful. Oh dude, yeah, look about it. Oh yeah, here's the guy Yanni was talking about um carrying combat gauze. Yeah, which is something used for like catastrophic injuries. Combat gauze when you just dealing with a like a accidental gunshot injury, severe puncture, get yourself wildly with an axe. Yeah, we were talking about how you put it over the wound, and an E M T who's dealt with a number of gunshot wounds in his day. Fellow named Nate rolled into be like no, no, no, no, no, no no, you got it all wrong, and he sends us a video about how to apply combat GUSS. You pack pack the wound channel full of combat gus. The video, which is on a rubber fake arm, is disturbing. Yeah, he's packing the rubber fake arm and it makes you feel naxious. He produced his own video. It's like he's like putting it over. It doesn't do ship. You pack jamming in there, jamming in there. So you tell your buddy bite this stick. Make people watch that video before they go on the woods. Bite you on this stick while I pack your wound full of gauze. That's why that hatchet is going to take another stick and jam your wound full of gauze with a stick. No, my finger, with your fingers that have late tass gloss, probably the right. I would use a stick. I would get a sharp stick and jam it full of gauze. So there's that ready for this one? Bring it positive or negative? Neither? All right? Vexing started hunting four years ago. It's a fellow name is Zack. I've only had the chance to hunt two of those dear seasons. Now I understand all the legal stuff behind harvest and a dough. However, the ethics behind taking the dough that is around six months old has me in doubt. I had a chance to take a younger dommet, passing her before I felt like she was too young. And overthinking this, how do you view the ethics of hard and harvesting legal but clearly young animals. You're overthinking it, but you can really think on it because it's a recruitment, right. If you look at it, the young ones are the youngs that are are the animals that are likely the most likely to not make it through the winter. So quite possibly you could be taking an animal that will very well die. Yeah, So if you look at it from that perspective, that's like a freedough. It's better than removing a proven breeder. Correct. Definitely, your big does are the ones that we are most likely going to make it through the winter. It's a anthro pomorphousicism problem, yes, it is. It's anthropomorphism at at its best. If you look at it from a food perspective. You don't get that much. Yeah, you know, there's not as much meat. And that's why I like to shoot big bucks. You know what they say, big racks, big meat. But yes, yeah, no, I got a couple of problems with shooting the young one. It's done have anything to do with her not having like or him having uh, you know, enjoyed a full life. It's uh one, Yeah, you get like a white tail dove fun. I mean you're looking at it, maybe you well, yeah, thirty pounds a yield. Maybe it depends on it's how late in the it's a big in the you know, September, noah, but it's could be half of if you shot a you know, a year old. Oh yeah, man, and then to the uh, you know what those young animals are just so mild people. Some people like that though. Yeah, they don't like your flavor. Yeah, if you like skinless chicken breast, then you know six months those white taild does or for you Germans Man, we learned this. They want to buy when they buy red deer out of Scotland went on, they want to buy ruddy stags. They like him high. That's what they call it. Remember the boars out of Texas. So he's saying, too, they get exported. Yeah, the stuff Americans don't want to touch. Yeah, so Mary's in Europe as like, yeah, send us all the ruddy old boars, we like them, high flavorful old mual to your back is I mean, I gave away of the elkay shot this year, and I'm not giving away any of the mule to your back high shot this year's too good. Uh. From the deer's perspective, it doesn't matter, Like a five year old buck is gonna be like, just shoot me. I don't care anymore. It's like from the deer's perspect of you're you're killing him. He's dead, all right. They want to live. There's no there's like they're not trying to A young one's not like, oh, on the prime of my life or just getting started life. Like, it doesn't really matter where I think it comes from. Where the where the prejudice against your Where the idea that you shouldn't shoot fawns or does comes from? Because you have to start to step back and look at the history of wildlife, or in this case, the history of deer management in this country, where in the early late eighteen hunters early nine hunters, we had like wiped out white tailed deer in a lot of areas and it was a long road to recover the species and bring it back to hontable numbers. We were able to keep hunting deer during the recovery because we just harvested box. So I want to grew up where you like your tag was good for like a buck, it was because you were trying to You were harvesting deer, shooting deer to eat, and shooting near for whatever um while still growing the population. Because when you shoot a box, you just you're removing one animal from the cool and as long as you have enough box left to make sure all the does get bred, you're fine. The key was saving your breeding age does, because if you shoot a buck, you're removing a deer from the population. When you kill a dough, you're killing her in every fond she will ever have. So once we got to recovery with deer and we got to where we've had, by some estimations, too many deer, and we started to say, man, now we got the opposite problem. Now we've got too many deer and they're causing a lot of conflicts with agricultural producers and car insures and people who have landscaping, and you know, we now have an obligation to lower to lesson deer numbers and also to control spread of disease and all kinds of other issues why you might want to cut your dear population back. We started to say, hey, guys, the whole not shooting dough thing, well, never mind. Now we're killing doughts. We're trying to lower deer numbers. And then there's been a lot of resistance to that. It still hangs out in some areas, it does. It. It's different growing up in I mean you talk about it a lot, right, Like all of a sudden you went from Michigan to Montana and it was like, I can kill how many deer? I mean, Um, when I first started rifle antelope hunting, I I mean I shoot five a year. I think we used to go out, well, me and my brother would had all analop hunt. We'd have six tags in our pocket, two buck tags, four door tags, three tags per right, and then that big winter kill happened and those days are over. Um, And then yes, you know, Sam, you could pick up you could the law really is you can shoot a total of seven deer in Montana, so one buck. There are some additional buck tags now but uh and then uh six dollars. Well in the Southeast as last states, you can kill a deer day too, dear day limited deer. Yeah, carry the same tag around for the whole season. Doug in Wisconsin, Doug Dring. He still has he still has people in his community here, like they just will not shoot a doll. They'll shoot every buck they ever lay their eyes on. Yeah, but they won't shoot a doll just because of growing up. But like Doug when he was growing up, when he was a little kid, if you saw a deer track, you went home and told your mom dad about it. It's amazing. Now they've got fifty year per square mile on good habitat. So yeah, I think this is uh yeah, it's more of a it's your personal ethics uh out there and it's just you so do you feel good about but the you know, those those tags exist for a reason. It's part of the management plan. Yeah, if you have faith in your state phishing Game agency and state fishing game agencies are not infallible. But I um am taking all things and considered and looking at all the alternative options. Um right now, I can say that like a good if you want to be an ethical hunter, a good starting place is to follow the rules as set forth by your state phish and Game agency and if they're teams of biologists have made a determination that you're not gonna be hurting anything by shooting a dough, and you might be helping something by shooting a dough. I wouldn't. And you want to shoot a doll, and that's in line with your personal plan, I wouldn't let any kind of other noise come in and influence your decision. I think we diverged a little bit because really the question really was about the age of that dough. Oh yeo, yeah, what I said that? I said, No, we touched on that and a lot, a whole lot more. Yeah, I said, they don't get like more wanting to get shot as they get older. You know, like doll is never gonna be like oh bro, last year I would have run away, but now you know I'm too. But to wrap it up, there are no ethics about shooting. There's no there's no like ethical issue about shooting young deer or young squirrels. Yeah, do you ever met anybody says I'm not gonna shoot a young squirrel. That's just something that never happens. And in pheasants, it's like people get cited about shooting older pheasant, but the younger ones are good. The older ones holy smokes. But I definitely yeah, you gotta cook them. But it's still cool when you shoot a real old one. As far as table fair, the youngsters, birds of the year, bird of the year born that spring, all right, I still got a giant stack of mail here in my hand. But uh, we should do another loose Ends sometime. That was fun, dude. We got limitless loose ends, a lot of questions, good stuff. I love the audience, man, We had the best audience in the world. Yeah. When we did a post on the first Light facebook page last year that I really had been meaning to write it like a follow up thank you on and it was kind of on one of the things that we tackled tonight, Like I had gotten home at ten thirty at night and took all the food and trays out of my refrigerator and stuffed at full of boned out elk because there was just nothing else I could do with it at that point in the evening, and so I was just cooling it down as fast as I could, you know, eighty or ninety degrees on a basically in August all count right, and took a picture of it, and we put it up on our social media, and um, there were some folks out there that we're living. It was like our most highly controversial post. And I absolutely love that because people were just like, that's not how you treat me. Other folks like, yeah, I've been there, Like you gotta cool it down somehow on great. Yeah. So yeah, the the audience, from my distant position of not knowing the situation, I will tell you that that's not how you treat me. Yeah, No, it is not ideal. It is not ideal. We gotta improvise, especially when you're doing yourself, you dude, we've had it so bad. We had like throw meat in the creek. Yeah, and you just cringe right flies, and then you're thinking about like sediment working its way and in the meat and just it's like in the eighties were like hunting doll sheep. It's like in the eighties during the day, you can't see because all the smoke from fires, burning flies on everything. We're just in the middle of the day. It's starting to stun to come up, we just go down and sinking the creek, or go up to a snow field, burying in the snow. Spent most of our time just trying to manage meat. Not ideal. So I'd be like, hey, you can't throw meat in the creek, but the picture would have been way worse. It was just it covered in fly eggs. Yeah. I love the fans and the listeners to especially Tom had been the guy that wrote the real hero email thanks to I'd love you all more if you take the time to subscribe and give us a rating. There's only one rating you can give. You're gonna rate the Meat Eater podcast. That would be five stars, the right most star. Yeah, um yeah, and subscribing. Subscribing to man. Subscribing is very helpful. Also, also go follow um I'm on Instagram at Steve Ronella, follow me or TV on Instagram. That's good stuff. That's all kinds of things you can do. And keep writing in letters. Um, Ryan Callahan, thank you very much, thank you. That's your grains of wisdom and y'all need the real hero I think, instead of the labby Eagle. I just started calling him the real hero. Oh, it's not gonna hit over ourselves.

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