00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is a me eater podcast coming in you shirtless, severely bitten and in my case underwear lissen don't to eat podcast. You can't predict anything. It's it's it's thank you for that. That's all I really wanted to do tonight, So thank you. I appreciate it. It's super dark. But where's a dude named Justin Grimes? He's not his honeymoon They yeah, like they made this part of the honeymoon trip man, which is really flattering something. We're glad you're here. Um, when I when I get uh, when I give wedding but marriage vice, don't ever ask, but I do give it. And I was like, say, read like you're not gonna understand that you do it, But read the works as you think about your married life, your married life, Read the works of Cormick McCarthy and looking there for the strict moral code that governs the world of Cormick McCarthy, because you'll find that the people that he's most severe with are people who make a decision to do something and then later try to live a life in which they hadn't made that decision. If you're just flat out evil, Cormick McCarthy doesn't hurt you. He hurts people who who dabble in evilness, So bear that in mind. Um, but Bozeman man, like, yeah, I heard everybody yelling earlier with from Montana like I live in never like constant jealousy of Montana residents. Um, you know I lived your long time. It's like I miss it. I love it. I learned a thing from my two year old recently that when my twyar olds jealous of something, he just destroys it. So if his sister draws a cool picture and everybody's like, oh, Rosemary, it's amazing, he just is like no, And um, so I kind of want now. I almost like Montana to go to ship because like the way more people move here to just go to ship and then I wouldn't have to like come here and be so bummed out all the time. That's really heartbreaking for me to come here. They advertised Montana where I live in Seattle, they advertised Montana. So like, when I'm driving around stuck in traffic jams, I gotta look at dudes in Montana, billboards of dudes in Montana doing fun stuff. And it recently got better because for some reason I got a guy up there now paddle boarding and like, so I feel no jealousy, Like I feel like it's twenty years ago. If I if you've had a dude over your house and you live on a lake and you're like, hey man, you can take the kayak all you take the canoe out bro um, you can take this surfboard. I could like duct tape a stick onto a paddle But it's like, it's like the Works. It's like Harry Potter books where in a vacuum, you know, if you'd set humanity back and let it go again, uh, we wouldn't be paddle boarding. It's like like but but if you set the clock back of humanity a million years and like let it go again, I would like to do that ten times and see which things we stick with in which we don't. And I'm damn sure. Like a person is gonna see a horned animal walk by and he's like, I'm gonna find a way to run a projectile through that. Things ribs like a couple of just behind the shoulder blade. It's like that again and again and again will emerge. But um, I don't mean a hack on paddle board it's just like seeing that sign really is I just feel it's not a legitimate pastime man um moving like moving to Bozeman though, or like like there's a long history of moving to Bozeman, and and it's like when I think about, oh I should move back here, you know, your your heads overwhelmed with all the things that could go right and the things that could go wrong. UH. Years ago, me and Matt here we uh I went to check out sixty six miles east of here. Basically the highway UH runs over a grave site sixty six miles east of here, and it's like they just there's a bunch of bodies buried in the grave, and they piled some rocks on it. And later like the highway kind of runs right along. It's between the highway and the railroad. So every time you go by, you looking and see this grave and this guy. It was three hundred and fifty years ago and three hundred and three or a hundred fifty years ago and three hundred and sixty one days, I think. Ago, there's this guy who is in Illinois and his two daughters and his wife carried off by pneumonia, and he's got one boy left. This guy's by the last name of Thomas. He's got a boy named Charlie, so the only thing he's got left, and he's got family in Bozeman. So in eight sixty six is dude packs up and he's gonna move out to Bozeman, make the big jump, and he follows the or he goes to St. Louis and follows the Oregon Trail, and like he's the Oregon Trail going along in southern Wyoming along the Platte, and then he jumps off and he's gonna go and follow the Bozeman Trail. And at that time the Bozeman Trail jumped off the Platte and went up the east flank of the Big Horns and hooked around to the north of the Big Horns. So this guy is going along and he passes what the what will be in a few months after his passing the Fetterman Fight, where seventies some soldiers get massacred by Sioux warriors. And he goes a little further and passes the Little Big Horn Battlefield, where in ten years a couple of hundred soldiers will get massacred by Sue and Cheyenne warriors. And he's traveled Jim Bridger and they and they come across a grave site where they just buried some other guys and he's all been out of shape. He's got a diary and he writes about how the wolves that dug them up and toward the rib me off him. And there's another grave site and the wolves that toward their face off them, and he starts painting this like awful picture of moving to Bozeman. Eventually a wagon breaks down and he leaves Bridger behind. And this guy's a minister, and he's thinking to himself that I'm gonna put my faith in God and travel without arms, because now that we're west of the mouth of the Big Horn, we're in Crol country and everyone knows you're safe from Curl country. So he pushes on by himself and they get over. Uh, like I said, sixty six miles here a little bit outside of Columbus, and it's him and his boy and a wagon driver named Joel Schultz. Uh. They get attacked. The next day they find the dad. He's got thirteen arrows stuck in him and he's scalped and he's parked by the rear tire of his wagon. His little boy's got three arrows and he's scalped by the front tire of the wagon. And Joe Schultz, the wagon drivers down by the river. He's got a dozen arrows in him and he had two cutthroats. Two cutthroat trouts they found the next day. So he was one trout over his bag limit. And I always return like approaching I always like passed that gravesite when approaching this area, and I always think of that. But then, like if you juxtapose that with my brother Matt, wasn't there a bit and there were The Sun has a um diary, and Sad has a diary. The dad has a diary, and in there it says something like, yeah, Jim Bridger told me not to go this way, but he's full of ship or something like that. That's that's rumored. He had a diary. When he crossed Bridger Creek, he wrote in his diary that we lost our coffee pot. The crazy thing is the last thing Thomas wrote in his diary. The night before he died. He wrote in his diary, we broke our champagne bottle. People have always wondered if it meant that he was so close to Bozeman, did we we're celebrating prematurely? Or that like losing his coffee pot when he crossed Bridger Creek he busted the champagne bottle. So there's like that version of moving to Bozeman which sticks in my mind. But then you have like Matt, Matt moves to Bozeman, earns himself a PhD. He points out that it was his second one because he already had a pretty huge and then still do then Mary's Mary's a girl of the ranch. So does that version move into Bozeman? Um? I think about that. I do think about this all the time. So with that preamble, we're gonna roll through some vexing questions. And many of these questions have come from folks in the audience tonight. Some of them are gonna be on the easy end of things, such as the guy was wondering, were you to encounterate? He calls it a legitimate sasquatch. Were you to encounter inmate sasquatsh like not you know, the fuzzy one, not like an out of focused sasquash, but a legitimate fasquat. And uh. The comedian Mitch Hedburg he postulates the sasquatch Bigfoot is just blurry and you can't get a good picture of him. But if you're gonna do it, he's like, what did he's take a timber buck? Would you take a crack? Like? He adds to it, he adds the questions. The guy with the question asks some color to where he's like, you know, no one's gonna believe you. So here you are in this situation where you're just gonna be the come of the laughing stock? Would you kill Bigfoot? Are you asking? Are you looking at Yeah, no, don't. I don't have an interesting answer that question is no way. I'm just gonna shoot some two legged thing that's walking around. Like That's where I'm at on it. How do you know? How do It's like there's yeah, there's no tag system. I would just like let it walk. I would. I would for legal reasons. No, it's not like a reward punishment thing. It's just like, hey, I've never seen one of them before. Let's make it be dead. Ye, Like guys are going to African safaris, like, so that's what that looks like. The folks that mistake or these Let's say you go on a hunt, right, You've never been in Bearer country ever, and you go on a hunt in the bitter at range and the outfitter says, shoot any bury see and that hunter she would say, grizzly bear. I hate that. You gotta know what you're shooting at. So for that reason, no, I like, I have never seen that. I have no idea what it is. I'm not going to pull the trigger for the you can't judge the trophy quality on it, no established scories. Yeah, it might change after I come out with my story, but I would just let it pass and then be when the sons of bitches believe me, I'm going back. Yeah, but I wouldn't know. I feel like I'm trustworthy enough. Would it be at least a small contingent of people that would trust me and we would It would regenerate at least for another fifty years. Would be a strong, you know, bigfoot community. No, I would not. I would always think less of you. I would like I would always I would always question your judgment. I would always think a little bit less of you. I like when I get into are there bigfoot arguments? Um? The thing that I found that I like to use, I don't know if it's really that effective. Is They bring up that this is an argument that serious people have anymore. Do you ever like turn on cable television? Many build No, I will indulge in for Max. It's it's interesting. It's a thing I try out when arguing with people about the plausibility Bigfoot. Is like I like to go to when Florida was down to forty some panthers, that multiple panthers every year getting hit on the road, and look at all their like really limited populations of animals, and then how many of them turn up dead on the road. And then to bring up the idea that that the entire fire history of automobile travel, we haven't hit one yet like that. It's just like if you got six of something one, I'm gonna get hit by a car. And all other populations of animals, you know, well, maybe they're just super smart. It could be Okay. Here's another one that came in. This is this is like I actually want to kind of hire this guy. There is a guy named Luke Ryan. I want to hire as like a resident company philosopher. Luke Ryan has this He's got a lot of things. He comes up and This is when he comes up. Have you guys been tracking about the lone Star tick? Okay, there's a tick, lone Star tick. It's common in Texas. This tick bites you, and when it bites you, you it's like when you get bit by Uh, a chicken might carry a bacterial infection that gives you lyme disease. This tick carries an infection that winds up and this legit. I wouldn't read about this. It winds up having it winds up that you become allergic to red meat. It's an infection that carries with it a red meat allergy. You become allergic to red meat. You can become allergic to dairy. So he's wondering, were this to happen to you, how would your relationship to hunting change? Like would you keep hunting? I hate this question. It's kind of like yeah, it's like it's like a question that comes up. But I just like this because it has like a spin on like like how wet are you? You know? Because he like he points out you could go and uh still hunt and feed it to your kids food banks, but you can't eat it. Yeah, I wouldn't. I just that would that would take it out of it. I mean the just yeah, this is it would lose its mystique at that point. So last year my dad called up. He said, hey, I would love it if you could get me an elk this year. So for the first time in a long long time, I shot to elk last year. But yeah, I don't know if the desire I wouldn't have the you know, hungry hunter hunts past. Right, Yeah, that's a tough one. What about Well he did add in that you could you know, you would turn into the world's best water fowler and upen game hunters. Right, That's what I was gonna say. I would. I would, Oh yeah, no, he gets rich. Yeah, he thinks about this stuff. What's it's just red meat from big gaming, red meat and dairy. You can still fish, you can still Crane's geese ducks. Those are pretty dark. I would definitely do it because I've off a point out. It's like if it wasn't for if it didn't get food and it wasn't fun. If you drop either those things out, either those two things out, I'm done. All right, this ceases to be fun and it ceases they old food. I'm paddle boarding probably. Well, you're honest. You and I were just talking the you know, purely getting groceries. Yeah, you know what, there's I have spots where it's like, all right, didn't get anything. I don't call it hunting because I know for certainty I'm going to be coming home with something. Yeah, the grocery get Yeah, it's total groceries. Yeah, and I wouldn't say yeah, I don't want to chalk that up. It's like, yeah, super fun outing. It's like, boy, I'm gonna go take an afternoon off and go get a white tail though. But it's fun. Yeah, there's still have some fun. Yeah, for sure, more fun than going to Albertson's. It'd be hard to HiPE for me to hypothesize. I think I'd have to go through the process and you know, be at home but right all up, wrap it all up, and then all of a sudden, be later in the fall or that winner not eating it, and then see how I felt about it. All right, how about this one? This is another Luke Ryan Luke Ryan's wondered nous You're okay, it's such a complicated two part question. And then Yanni like sequestered some of the information that I can from the cooking side of things. How many times do you try to make some off cut taste amazing? I feel like I would have a horrible gastro intestinal life for a long time. Yeah, because I just keep trying. Oh you'll see when it wore off. Yeah, well maybe if I do this. I thought about it. I worked for many an outfitter in Colorado, more than one, So you can say all that information. Okay, Now I have permission to say something I was earlier forbidden from saying. But I got it so worked out now that I don't need to say. It would be this. A guy's wondering this. Luke Ryan puts this out there. You go on a guided trip. Okay, you're going to guide a trip, and then you're thinking yourself, uh, okay, now what I'm gonna do. It's just come back and hunt this exact same spot. Now that I know what's up, So your book a trip, the guy takes you out, it's like, this is my great secret spot, and do the thing and the next year, like, see you next year. But as an equal, is that immoral? I say yes? Well what like? So all the yeses go like yeah. In the audience, that was the nose. I have to say yes, because you came out of the guiding industry. Well, I don't think that's the real reason why. I think I'm saying yes, immoral. Yes, I've seen it firsthand, and yeah, I mean it's no different than walking in on the last final of the year and I grabbed Stephen Ronella's final paper off the desk, scratch his name out, put my name, Maa. You did all the work, you did all the study, and you filled out the test. I just put my name on it. Yeah, I want to weigh and I say no. I say no. I say it's not immoral, not immoral. You paid the guy, you know what, that's true. That is a good point. Now, if it's your buddy and he takes you to your spot his spot, that's an entirely different I don't even need to ask that question. That is so immoral that I don't need that. Yeah, it goes without saying to the buddy, you'd never do that to a buddy. Where is the difference you paid them? I think you could come up with a prostitution analogy here. So now, okay, okay, just to provide a little context here, there's a guy that wrecked somehow he realizes where Yeah, a place of Janice used to guide. Can I talk about this? And no, I realized that all that. I realized that all the outits that worked for all had a similar setup where we sort of drove through some private property, camps on private property, lodged on private property, and then went to hunted national forest. The three ouferers that I worked for, and again people can just do as much research as they want, they all had a very similar setup. So you know exactly where this guy was talking about. You know, it would be hard to figure out. You have to go hunt three different spots that are you know, a hundred square miles each and then go, yeah, I know we were talking about But anyways, Yeah, so he's got But I think how his question was his question makes it less morally, makes it more that more that it's okay to do this. Yeah, because he wants it right, he wants that answer. No, he here's the deal. That's why I don't want to get into it. He's got body working at this outfitter. So my okay, I'll tell his question and then I'll give him my a point. He's got buddy's working at this outfitter that have obviously opened their mouths and talked about the setup of this location, right, so they've gotten this inside information. Now he's asking if it's morally okay to use that information to go behind these private ranches and basically going hunt these spots that these guys are So there's other ways to get in there that don't involve going through the private property totally. And what he's saying is so he's saying that his buddy's screwed up and they lost their tight lippedness and they're like, well, wherever really killing these elk is on national forest above the ranch that we're based out of. So he says, I'll see you up there. They and then you take that as a transgression, transgression against your outfitter, I think, just against your but well, one of the guys messed up for you know, flapping their gums and then too. Yeah, it's like, give them a little respect if they told you about that spot. It's like where they're working, don't go, don't go. How did everybody say the other week pissing the pissing the cathedral or no baptismal fountains in the baptismal pomp um. So what if I mean, look at all the things. If you're going with anybody, your buddy outfitter guide, whoever, if they can't blend them all together, absolutely don't blend. The thing is, if you are going with somebody who has a wealth of knowledge about the area, about the animals, aren't you take enough away without having to go to the exact spot. I'm learning so much when I got out with you, like this is the way Steven Renelant, I come away with that? Do I have to go in there and you know, kick you out of your spot too? But here, No, because here's the thing, he's making a claim of ownership. You're sort of making a claim of ownership that only takes away your right to access. So you're saying, like, sure, anyone else is welcome to go here, the whole sixty million Americans are welcome to go here, but you can't because of how this piece of information came to you. So I think it winds up being like a little bit like you're sort of getting screwed out of a god given right because of the way that a piece of information flowed. It's a business train, it's a business transaction. You gave the guy money to take you to a hunting spot. I mean, if if you, if you, if the if the outfitter didn't want you to go in there, go in there. It should be part of the contract or something. Yeah, moving on, But no, no, no, because it brings up the point of going into hunting spots that you've never been to you with your body, and if you're the kind of guy that might follow up with a hunt of your own in that same spot, you might want to, you know, bring that up to your buddy's taking you into that spot. Well, if I ever hired an outfit or would be because I could go into the spot, he shoulder. I've done that on family vacations. I've done that. We go down somewhere, it's hard to figure the fishing out. Yeah, go out like hire something with the PONNDA, go out and fish for two hours, come back and be like, resume business like more. On the way back, you're like, hey, you know where I can run a punco exactly? See, I would feel mad, So I think sometimes I would just turn down being showed or even told about a spot and just go there and learn it all my own to have a clear conscience about it. With the with the friend thing, don't final thought on this with the friends thing, it's way different than when a friend takes you somewhere and shows you something. You have an obligation. It's at that point, it's like it's like sleeping with his wife, and at some point if he says, you know what, you just go ahead. That's you. Then you have to later call back again and be like, Wow, my cousin, right, he's in town, he's he'll probably never come back. I have anxiety going with dudes two places because I'm like, what if I really like it? What am I gonna not go back? Yeah? What if it's full of out? It's like I'd almost rather like not have to supermanently scratch off an entire chunk of the earth and just like go find it on my own somehow. Moving on, Joe March, over your many years of hunting, what was the most common mistake you found yourself making over and over? I know exactly right to mine is that I'm putting the sneak on something like I've found something, I'm gonna go get in on it, and there's something being an animal um getting in on I mean I'm gonna, like, you know, stalk in on it. Is that I, uh, all of a sudden realized that I'm like crawling and going way around. And I also realized that I'm just in plain sight of the thing because like misreading, like like misreading of the laate like because you know, you think, like if I really was gonna do this right, I would go three miles that way. And you know, but I bet I could you know that little rise and that little little thing and that brush and you just sort of like you're going along and the next thing, you know, you're looking like, oh, it's looking at me. It's just right there. But I somehow like misread all this stuff. That is like it just happens again again again. So do you feel like you're misreading the landscape or you just trying to take a short cut shortcut short cutty like short cutty shitty little short cutting things. It's a gimme, it's a gimme being nonchalant. Yeah. Mind. Similar mind is that I think I've spooped it, but I haven't start like being uncareful because that's gone and then I run right into it. Similar I think just moving too fast you know. You know, that's why I like going on a long haunt, because I feel like it takes three or four days until I really start moving at the pace of the woods. And I feel like once I hit that pace, you know, then all of a sudden, games just like doing this in front of me. But when you're just when you're I'm moving too fast and I'm looking at my toes instead of having my head up, you know, taking it all in, I feel like you just I'm not seeing the game, not in the zone. Yea, yea say it could be indifferent. It's forgetting my long handled spoon and get your knuckles full of free It will bother me the entire time I'm in the woods. He has I know better. Yeah, And you just had and there you are with dried cheese stuck to your knuckles. Um, do you have any okay, do you have anything profound to say about being alone in the wilderness. This is from a guy named Bob Dean, who should if he's not, he should be in the sausage business. Bob Dean, do you have anything profound to say about being alone in the wilderness by yourself or in a small group? Being completely responsible for your well being without communication or support from your society. Society. Dot's say that society. If if anybody gets anything, I'll it's gratifying to know it will be mean. Since I'm alone, I hope just someone gets something. I don't care who it is. Oh, but you're always with the llamas. So like in the morning, like you look at all Yeah, you look at all that. I mean, like somebody's gonna get some today, right, guys. I think the thing that that that I've come to like about not coming. I think I've always liked about wilderness, and there are many of them, and I didn't really think to articulate it this way until fairly recently. Um. I started riding my bike in Manhattan years ago, and I spent a couple of years, about a year riding a bike regularly in Manhattan, and I realized that doing it, um that there was no room to have any other There's no room for any other thought. Okay, so you're riding along and you can't be like, man, I should call my mom more often. It's like you just can't, you know, think about any besides exactly what you're doing, because exactly what you're doing, it's so dangerous. You just described the yoga class and how they set that up and the artificial That's why I don't like it when they try to do it to me in yoga, because I'm like, it takes a lot more than a bunch of us sitting around and comfortable clothes trying to be the kind of people who aren't thinking about other stuff. I need to be like forced into the situation not think about other stuff. And so when riding my bike, and like when I was doing a lot of bike riding in Manhattan, I was offered thinking about, Wow, it's really like I don't get this feeling that often of not having any room for any of your thought but exactly what I'm doing. And I realized that, like in a lot of wilderness experiences now, when you're like laying in your bag at night, but just all the things that go into it, it winds up being like you're forced to for sometimes day is on end. It's just like just be focused on this thing because there's so many there's so many aspects to it and things that keep in mind that you you do loose, you quickly lose sight of all the nagging things that are rolling around in the back of your head. I think I've talked about a fair bit. Is they did this study one time where they had people that they paired up people and put them in a gymnasium and had them throw a ball back and forth. So they break everybody up into pairs, and each pair of people has to play catch, and there's a there's an observer assigned to each pair, and the observer is false to just count how many times the ball changes hands. So it's a gym full people playing catch and there's people watching them play catching comedy times the ball changes hands. And then in the middle of this they have a guy in a gorilla suit walk through the gym. Later they say, like how many times the ball change hands? And you'll be like a change hands thirty three times. Do you know what's anything unusual? While you were counting the ball change hands? Most people don't see the gorilla come through the room. And like those are people who are bad being in the woods. Those are like those are like bad wilderness people and um, and I think it's like that you have to just be aware of like what you know you need to be aware of, be aware of what you're you're not really knowing you need to be aware of. But just like spatial awareness is nice. Last night at dinner college town, a lot of pretty girls walking around. It's not because I don't care about what you're saying. I'm just being aware of what's going on. And you were wilderness. Um. Yeah, I think it comes back to the damage about moving slowly and you know, just and and getting to that point where you're just like, I think it's all the same thing that we're saying, that all other stuff gets out of the way and you're so just focused on just being there, and um, you get to just experience I think days or time or however you want to look at it slower than and my regular day of getting up and just like jamming and going and cooking and then you know, the office totally back again. No. Um, So yeah, I just think that that's is good for me, for my head, my soul, to just experience that slow pace. Yeah. Absolutely. I've been on a few hunts where um, you know, the the It's been a number of things, clients guides where there's connectivity up on the mountain some and now it's worse and worse with um like the iridium go there's ways to be connected to the outside world, and I truly don't want any of that stuff on any hunts anymore because I've noticed, Um I just example, up INBC last year or the year before, had this you know, awesome weasel encounter. You know, we eaels up there checking out and running up and looking at you and just kind of doing their very inquisitive, extremely entertaining thing. Only person that noticed it because the other two dudes were up on their phone because they've got a signal on top of some mountain or something. Yeah. Yeah, it takes you out of the out of the space. And I think more and more as connectivity it becomes, i mean almost given in a lot of these areas, you'll always have it. We need those those spaces and times to disconnect them. Yeah. I went to a lecture by a guy that had done solo long distance canoe trips and one of what to see him you'd come off of just doing the whole Shore Lake Superior, which is months long, and he was talking about You're saying, like, you know, when you're out in the woods for ten days, how everything seems to um be slowing down and becoming quieter for ten days, he says, at six once, I haven't found the end of that. It's still it's still happening six months, in which gives you a sense of how wound up we could potentially be. That he hasn't unwrapped. He hasn't unraveled the string at six months. So when you think you're all kicking ass at ten days, it's a tight coil. Man. I remember when you and I would go first moved out here and we go hunting for four or five days. I remember we'd come out and we'd be driving home and like fifty miles would feel super fast. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. You missed the pacing of things. What happened for me, they'll really change. The connectivity thing is after nine eleven because you used to go um and didn't care, right because I didn't have family or anything. So you went to like be like I didn't care what was really going on, and then all of a sudden you get introduced to this thing that's like that that you could have is like instantaneous catacort doesn't make events happened that you weren't aware of. And it took me a long time to be comfortable totally unconnected for a long time because in my mind that happened like that, You're like, because you know, you'd be like, well, what could happen? What could possibly happen? Then all a sudden you introduced this idea that like, oh, like a thing could happen, and it nags you that you're out of the loop. We went, remember we went hunting the brakes, and it was it was in that period, at the beginning of that period when the when the Bush gore election, like there was it wasn't clear who had won it, and we put off the trip for the election night. Then we're like, okay, I guess we're just gonna to go and not know. Yeah. Yeah, we thought it was gonna be like a just a couple of hours delay. It turned into what was it event? Ultimately? I want to give you a flip side of this though, because something I think about quite often now is when I was working in the woods, um, you know for the majority of my ear and I was, you know, a large part because of wanting to be I was disconnected from the outside world. I was had very little few thoughts running through my head, or at least looking back on it, I feel that way now, I feel like I get cluttered because I know, like the public land's access issue is is something that you know, I'm constantly thinking about now and when I going into the woods, I'm staring around being like, oh my god, are we really going to screw this up? Whereas back before, when I was spending way more time in the woods, I never thought about any of that stuff because I just truly didn't even think about being connected to it. Yeah, you were in a global citizen in your old woods many Yeah, Um, this guy was this guy's picking up on something, the Cody Bomber, who's picking on something up? And I said sometimes I was talking about how I know a lot of people who are a lot better at hunting than me, and um, he's like, what's the difference between yourself and the people who are better at it? And I know, Matt, you think a lot about Kent Unland being a real good Yeah, who's not with us tonight? No, And there's a couple other guys in mild City And frankly, I don't know if I knew, I just start doing what that is. Yeah, you know, I think, Yeah, for me, I think it's like when I look at the people. I think that the thing that we do to measure like good hunting nous would be there. How much is someone able to do a lot of times we're looking at how much is someone able to do something again and again and again and again. So it'll be like, oh, you killed you know, in twenty years, he's killed twenty bowls with his bow, So that person would would develop a certain renown, right, especially when it goes out and doesn't like three days. Yes, it's like burning all my vacation time. And I find that like, and I find that like just because of the details of my life I do. I do many, many kinds of things, and so I have this like good cursory knowledge of tons of ship. But don't focus in on like the thing. And when I do, when I look at like a really great hunter, I'm looking at someone who can just like do the impossible all the time, like some guy like you know, hunting in the Midwest on public land with the bow, killing nice bucks every year, right, no fim permissions. I'm like that to me is like the he's doing the impossible, right. Oh, it's it's easy to define who the who the you know, good hunter is. It's much more difficult to say how he got to be that way. But I think that, like when I think of the guys that are so much better than me, I think it's like people who have picked a thing that's difficult and just somehow focused and became like singular in their pursuit winds up being the guys that look at them like that's amazing. It's not so much that someone that's like jumps around hunts every state and hunts all around the world and does all these things once. It's like the it's the the person with the laser focus, but not the laser sight define the good hunter. It's just for me dead like somebody that has like something that's hard to do um, like killing an elk on public lands every year in Montana. I think of that with a boat, even with the rifle. But I think of that is um. But you've achieved that, not with a bowl um generally though, okay, with without using all your vacation time. I like it. Yeah, Matt will go. You one time went and did twenty one days. I routinely go twenty days. Yeah, there's some time card pudging that goes into it. Good Aude you forgetting hunt twenty days. Like the guys that are better than you, what do they do? Like? What makes them better than you? Oh? I mean a ton of stuff. I'm I don't feel like I'm very good at any of it. I feel like I'm still I'm still here. I look up to many many people. So I'm just just need more days in the woods to hone your skills. I don't think that's it for me. I think there's something differentiate differentiates like was an excellent hunter fifteen years ago? You know, so like I've got way more time in the woods now than Kent fifteen years ago. Yeah, you get more time in one trip than Yeah, because he doesn't you know, he doesn't need to go out very long six cents something I would just will drop of something that some hunters have and something. Yeah, maybe he doesn't smell. I don't know. There's actually something to that man smelling people. Um dirt math, if we're right, a powerful he has got, he's got a commanding presence. Um. Is there a way to stop hunting with someone but still be friends, he says, he says, Or is it like uh? Or he says, Also it sounds like the hunting equivalent of that girl or guy in a relationship up that doesn't want to date but still wants to be friends. Can you have a hunting buddy that you're just like it just I can't And I've had this happen in and I know you've had to happen in your life where you're just like, I can't help with that guy anymore? Can you still like be buddies? Something changes? It becomes hard to be friends, right, But I've gone to be an ot seed out of the club, out of the club, and it's hard to find to still be friends. You know, when you've pulled out the love making kel no experiences, man, I think, boy, yeah, I'm sure I'm missing a few. But they've they've kind of naturally went their own way. Yeah, it happens, man. They don't like, they don't like to stop all. They don't Their idea of hunting was a lot different um those those types of you know, it's more mem No, I think that like hunting together, well, no, hunting together creates like really tight close friendships. It creates really tight close relationships and it winds up it's just different, like if you spend a handful of trips with someone. It's just it's just you're just different with them. You get to a place you don't get to hanging out like drinking a beer and and so yeah, the later be like, man, I don't want like like, I don't want to go out in the woods with you anymore and be with you out in the woods anymore because of whatever it is about you. You can't you can't be like, but let's go get a beer. Yeah, remember that one time we went hunting together and then I got sick of you. I have I mean, I have buddies that I'll go hunt with us and not pack a rifle because that's the only way, you know. It's like, yeah, I love spending time with you. Get let's go out and I'll spot some stuff to call some stuff. But you're not gonna hume with him now, all right. So with regard to technology, where do you draw the line and what this guy is getting at recently is there's uh uh knocks. Now, Okay, some guy recently came out of the knock that you're putting your ararow that has a tracking device in it so you can stick something and and track it using GPS technology. So he's talking about knocks, um, and he talks about trail cameras. At what point is like, at what point does fair chase not exist anymore? And I think he's looking for he's looking for an answer. Um. I think, uh, Justin bros Bro, Justin Brows is looking for like a concrete thing that you just won't do, like a demarcation get you. He wants it clean, he wants it you can't do that because it's a nuanced thing. Like having a knock that tells you where your gut shot deer went. That just seems like better living through technology. Now this game camera thing you can see where that could that's treading on some uh than I want to talk about knock and I think it's tie it into this what makes a good hunter thing. I would argue that the more you lean on technology, the fewer skills you actually developed. Like I'd be like, I'm just gonna gut shoot it because I got these Knocks's gonna do that. No, But he's saying, because you don't have to then track the gut shot here and find it without the tracking technology that you then don't possess those Okay, but if you get a pass through. If you get a pass through, it doesn't do anything right. But let's but it's much more fun to talk about these sorts of matters pretending that it's gonna work good because then it allows you to explore that the lighted knock right like lighted you brother of the lighted knock, or the friendly brother of the lighted knock when it when it passes through, it puts out little arms and stays inside. Yeah like that. I mean, I don't even like reading books about hunting because I feel like I'm gonna grab some chunk of knowledge that I haven't actually learned yet and just assume it, and that's gonna hurt me in the long run. So when it comes to the technology thing, like yeah, I have a GPS, but I have a map that I use way way, way more. But yeah, but here's five thousand years ago people on this continent. We're not using bows. Correct, five to seven, they were using the adele addles the bow and arrows invented a bunch of different times around Earth. So at some point in time, it went from being that you were using a spear throwing well, you were using a hand throwing spear and then you're using a throwing board to get a better spear throw. And then all of a sudden, some dude comes rolling over the mountain who's got a bow. You're like, that's cool to ship, right, yes, So he starts using that, and then you fast forward and you have muskets, and then some guy starts besides to cut a spiral groove inside of a musket barrel and make a rifle. And the people that you were using that, like Daniel Boone Hunter with he had a rifle barrel. He went into the woods thinking that he was using a technologically advanced tool that was leaps and bounds ahead of what was available to his father. Get what you're doing, it's wrong. You get what I'm doing. But it's like, it's just it winds up being a march. And I'm gonna play Devil's advocate for a minute here, because there are people who in dealing with fair There's some like like hunting philosopher types who are dealing with fair Chase think that we just need to abandon that idea and focus on what they think we should focus on is the idea of of fair use. Meaning we're dealing with a finite resource. We're gonna need to figure out not enforcing and making ethics legal or like this is fair not fair? He's like how much pie is there to divide up? And then we're gonna need to limit our technology is not based on it being fair or right or nice. We're gonna need to limit our technologies to allow the maximum pool of individuals a chance to get a piece of the pie. And it winds up being like a you're talking about the same thing, but you're approaching in the way that I think is like it just almost winds up being easier to think about. So, if you're gonna have technologies that are gonna drive efficacy through the roots so used to be that are like bone arrow like in this state, I could be wrong. I think that archery success rates on elk had always hovered somewhere between ten and so you could give out that many more tags, okay for every elk, Like for every elk killed, you could go out and give out five tags and give that many people opportunity to go and be the figure out who's gonna be the one that gets the one elk. Once technology pushes where efficacy rates are gonna go so high, where we push it, you're they gonna say, Okay, most of you people are no longer able to go into the woods because we have a limited pool of resources here. Fair use, I would say that you are then also going to have a very limited amount of people who even want to go into the woods because part of okay, access recruitment. That's like the biggest issue that we're facing right now. And and I use this analogy like the stock and it's good for out out here here. Right everybody's got a rancher buddy or a friend who's got a rancher buddy who's got the stock pond out on their place, and it's like, yeah, I want to go fish that stock pond. You want to go fish that stock pond. Eventually you get to go out. First cast, you catch a fish, second cast, you catch a fish, third cast, fourth, Eventually you're like, well, I know I can catch a fish out here. Very rarely do you ever return to that stock pond. Because yeah, but here's the thing I'm driving in a lot of what you're driving at where he were saying limiting technologies. If if we're we're gonna have to we're gonna have to We're gonna have to continue to because already limit technologies. You can't jack light, okay, or you can't for something jack like frogs. You can't jacklight. Deer you can't use you can't use the artificial light to find a deer. We're alreadying the practice of limiting technologies. What these people are saying, we talk about the fair use idea rather than fair chase or ethics are saying, Yes, we're gonna limit technologies, but we're not going to frame the discussion around telling you what's right and wrong. We're gonna limit it to be that we're gonna be able to have the maximum number of potential, the maximum number of people having potential to extract a resource to maintain the best numbers. We're gonna limit efficacy, to limit efficacy, We're gonna start ruling out technologies. We're not dictating what's right and fair and good. We're just dictating, like, how can we maintain maximum engagement with a limited resource. So they're getting that way you're getting, but they're not trying to like they're just trying to like discuss it in the way that doesn't make it seem moral, that doesn't make you have to pick between right and wrong. Yeah, I'm a fair user. I would say that you're fair. I find myself being in that way because it is It's like I do all I have all kinds of things that do that weren't available before. And if your the measure of morality is was it available before, well, the whole damn thing boots. It's like, you know what I mean, it gets really tricky, but it's like, you know, obviously, terminal tackles a heck of a lot easier, more efficient in most cases than fly fishing. I like to fly fish. It's a fun thing to do. Some people say it limits you that you do. Yeah, uh, but you know there's gotta be some you know. I find like anybody going into any sport, any activity, they're never going to be more passionate about it than when they're learning. And if we inject all this stuff that makes it easier and easier and easier, you know, I'm like, when are we gonna get to the point where it's like I can kill a deer off my couch in front of my computer, right, and then we're just not gonna have people that want to go out in the woods. But we're the only like we're the only like like hunters are the only type of people. Fishermen too, who really are like screwed up about this stuff in sports. They're always like making rules and sports and people don't they don't turn it into this big like what's right and wrong and a big moral dilemma. It's just like we agree that for our game to kind of like be the way our game is, you can't use that ship, right, And everybody's like, like, there's nothing called this hand ringing. You know. You got a couple of little girls coming up. They're popping some rabbits around the house, not quite yet, not quite know. They talk about it a lot, okay, sometimes just staying with their mother. Their mother has a little cream on their face and they see bunny rabbit go by it and they go, Baba, monny rabbit, let's kill it. He's like, um, but yeah, not quite yet, but go ahead. But I mean, do you want to you want to bring them up the way you were brought up with that technology or you know, I don't say, I don't really care as long as they're in the woods, you know, and enjoying it. So yeah, but I'm we've been not gonna engage in the hand ring. No, We've talked about the fair used thing before, and I think it makes a lot of sense. It does. I've never heard that before, and I think you're just gonna get more people, you know, the of of different mindsets to sort of converge and be like, yeah, we can all agree upon that because we all want opportunity. We all want to hunt every year, and for me to hunt every year and everybody else that wants the hunt every year, we're gonna have to limit how we do it and our success rates. Okay, how do you cope with the brutality? This one guy named Dave Smith, who would be hard to look up on Facebook with that name, Dave Smith says, how do you cope with the brutality of mother nature and its food chain? I find the wolves and bears to be bullies of the animal world as they strive to kill the young and helpless. Maybe I'm becoming too soft for the sport or I'm not gonna read it because I don't want to be associated with that kind of thinking. Um, maybe I'm becoming too soft for the sport. Wondering if anyone else feels the same and becomes upset because you're unable to help a young animal live another day. Would you rather see the yearly become a good age rather than a bear or wolf pull it away and shred at to pieces while it remains breathing? He really liked its just just yeah, if you say where he wants you to go mercilessly ripping it while it's screams an egg and he I mean, I don't know, how do you feel about to have? You know? I always when I see a predator prey interaction, I am damn sure always rooting for the predator. Oh, I'm always rooting for the prey, like when you watch the prey. Yeah, like when you want on TV tvie, like if you're watching like in your motel room, like you know, Cheetah going after a baby gazelle or something. I'm definitely rooting for the gazelle. But no, he's not in real life. A break. Okay, I'll remember this, I'll remember this the day I die. We were Do you remember when we took the writer Ian Fraser on his first deer hunt? Okay again, we talked about the breaks that we're in the Missouri breaks we're in the area with all the White cliffs, and it's called the White Cliffs area. Looking at all that area with Ian Fraser, who is full, he's very nervous about what he knows is bound to happen on this hunt, that the blood could very well be shed by his hands. And I remember we're floating along in pigeons what you're called rock doves. Where they're from, where their you know, their native range in Eurasia. There's a bunch of pigeons stood up in the cracks and the White Cliffs, and there's a redtail hawk. Oh, I would be rooting for the Hall. Yeah, working work in the area over the cliffs, and the pigeons were real nervous about getting out too far from the cliffs. And I remember, and this was well over a decade ago, this was in two thousand, seventeen years ago. I remember exactly what you said. I remember the look on his face because you said, man, I hope that thing comes down and bitch slaps one of those pigeons. And and it was like it was like an epiphany. It was like a thing went off in Ian Fraser's mind of being like like a sudden awareness of a way that one could view nature, and I think it like changed him forever, Like the look on his face, and it was like a kind of a laugh, kind of a revelation. It was kind of like someone saying if someone came down and said to you, like, you know what you know when you die? That really is that, you'd be like, jeez, really yeah, so I know you route right, it's apparently as case specific because yeah, all right, there's nothing sadder. And you know, it's like it's weird too as a hunter to say things like this and realize that you think things like this. But to me, there's just's nothing sadder than an offspring being separated from its mind. You a love offspring being separated from their moms. It is sad, I though. That makes me laugh. It just makes me so uncomfortable, I know, but it's just true. Man Yny prayer Man, predator man. When I'm watching BBCNE why you guys can talk about television. It's like, you guys spend an enormous amount of time outside. Yeah, but how many times how often you actually see something kills something? That's what I'm saying, are you rooting for it to happen or not? When I'm watching. No matter what I'm watching, I'm always like i'm watching. If I'm watching the Bear, I'm like always hopeful that all of a sudden he's just gonna rampage into something and tear at the piece. Can I read between I just like, I'm like always hoping if I'm watching, I'm in the best case scenario in the question for a minute, you want to read what he actually No, no, no, I just want to read between the lines. I think, don't you think that he's saying we got to get rid of all the wolves and stuff? He's an aunt. I believe that he might. And I can say this name Smith because who in the world is gonna find Dave Smith. I think Dave Smith might be an anti predator guy. Yeah, I mean, and that's where and he's like, I'm an anti predator guy. I don't want to just come right out and say that, So I'll talk about the brutality with how which they kill. I'm not picking sides. I'm rooting for the interaction that happened, and I'm just like happy to sit there and watch and enjoy the observation whatever whatever you know, happens. Sometimes if you're watching one of them, uh documentaries, and and the lion looks all scraggly and super hungry. Then I start rooting for good boy. I am with you, honest completely here, Like every time I've seen something big or small, I am just in awe of you know, just by somehow, some crazy set of circumstance being in that small area of the entire freaking planet that this is happening, and it just magically happens in front of me. Like I can't get my head around from that to be like, you know, I'm team squirrel on this one. You know, it's like it's just an amazing You're not like in a position to Yeah, that'd be like, hold on YouTube, can't we work this out? Yeah? And I mean there are no bullies of the animal, like they're just doing what they do. Yeah, I got you. This is kind of in the same vein. Someone says, Uh, they have a three year old daughter. No, three year old. I don't know if the boy or girl. Um. He started exploring what what is a girl? He started exposing her to the concept and outcomes of hunting and fishing as a source of food. He says, she helps and he throws that in quotes, and I know exactly what those quotes I mean. She helps me portion in package primal cuts of game, and again she helps clean and flay fish. She knows that the food we eat is deer and fish and turkey. But I have not exposed her to the more gruesome tableau. I like this guy to the more gruesome tableau of killing or skinning an animal for fear of painting her nightmares. This is good, Jonathan Ingram, It's really good read on. But I have not exposed her to the more gruesome tableau of killing or skinning an animal for fear of painting her nightmares. What are your thoughts on how best to expose our kids to these things without pushing them into the opposite polar extreme. Obviously every kid is different, but general thoughts would be appreciated. These guys have never bred a woman, which I pointed out before, so they're not like even kind of I'm just gonna turn slightly this one, but I can simulate it really good success. Never successfully bred. Um, it turned slightly towards honest. Uh. I get this a lot, and I think that there's a real um. There's like a lot of trepidation with parents that I think maybe didn't exist before, where parents are really worried about exposing kids to violence. I like that. I think that he really is getting at he doesn't want to ruin it later by over pushing now. But in addition to his concerns, I think it's a real concern where parents feel that like hunting is violent, it's a violent act. Can't get around it, um and limiting kids exposure to violence, I think towards this idea that like, uh, they're not going to become violent people like human They're not gonna pick up like human on human violence. I've evenen countered where at of people who think that their kids, like seeing a firearm is somehow going to push him in that direction, like that the only thing separating their kid from becoming a sociopath is that they haven't seen a gun yet. And I always like to think there's a little bit more holding my kids back on that end. Um. But yeah, I think there's a lot of fear around this. What like what have you as you've dealt with it with your daughters, and I know that they've seen a lot of the tableau. I think you can do a lot worse with just what's out there on television. Um, yeah, I guess television mostly in just general media for scaring your kids away from whatever it is. You don't want him to be a you know, scared of you know, I mean if he's talking about actually like painting nightmares, Like, I don't think it's gonna come from cutting a chicken's head off or gutting a deer, but it will come from, um, you know something like my kids are are seriously scared of. I don't even know the name of the movie. What's someone with a little um yellow characters. There's thousands of them minions. Yeah, they watch that ship and they are scared. They don't know what's going on. It's it's the stuff moving fast, every dire action and when you're not used to that. There's a lot of violence for a kid's movie in there, and I think a lot more there than us at homes, like slapsticky violence. Yeah, I think if you watch it with the critical yeah, yeah, but still again, stuff they're not used to because they just don't watch that kind of stuff at home, you know. Um, you're just interject quickly, please, So I think that there that a lot of this is just in eight in kids like some of them. I have friends whose kids you need to look at the kid and be like that kid ain't gonna hunt. Yeah yeah. And then you got people kids on the other end of the extreme and were just at the cabin and you know that Matt our good friend, Matt Drost, and his daughter was there, his eleven year old daughter. She would catch an octopus in one of the crap and one of the shrimp pots, and she's playing with this thing. It's stickers are hanging off and crawling them, and she plays with it for a half hour and then just takes a knife. She lives with the reality she was brought up with that though, I'm guessing right, are trying to make their nine hunting kids in the hunt in the hunters, and they're exposing him to all of it. But it's just not catching eye. Sure, you know, you know there's two the interesting things. Uh. The thing like we're always like tripped up that we're in this like now as a society, we've arrived at these things that other people weren't dealing with. But Francis, there's a historian and the nineteenth century historian Frances Apartment and Frances Apartment wrote at the time like the definitive history of the French and Indian War. And he was asthmatic and was sent by his doctors like you need to go out west. In eighty six. He comes out west and visits the Black Hills of South Dakota in eighteen forty six. And now it's believed that it's his Partment was probably in the same Iglala Sioux camp that Crazy Horse is probably thirteen or fourteen years old, and that he was traveling with Crazy Horse, and he would describe how joyfully the Sioux children would torment everything that they found that was alive with toy Bow's just it was just like if it moved, you went after with your toy bow. And he took it to be that it was just like a training thing. And there's a documentary it's about First Contact groups in South First Contact groups in the Brazilian rainforest and the kids in those communities. You were brought up to bring stuff home and jab it and jab every little thing you can find. It's so I think now like when we look at now, if I look at my kids and my kids like he's very aware of hunting, really interested hunting. I mean all three of them are, but the oldest one is more. He just puts a lot more to get other because he's older. Um, he has this thing now where's like he knows we hunt, He's done some hunting. He's the hunted small game. He sees it, he wants to get it. And you might be like, oh, you know we've created this demon. Well I don't know, like are you criticizing all those like all all those other cultures who cultivated that and children like you're gonna learn the skill set. You're gonna learn the skill set this way, you know, Like as much as we would disapprove it, Now, what do we do when we were kids? Oh we had that? What do we hunt? The mode of being a kid that you just described, where do we hunted? Chip? If there's a lower chamber and hell for people that wantingly kill? Roads were just like it was like you wanted to hunt. And it's like all the other stuff that later gets piled on top of that, all the all the ideas of of of use and ethics and a suff at the time, it's just not there at times, like there's certain people who just want to engage in the activity and learn it now, that's how you learned it. Later, you learn all the things that make it what it is. So I don't think it's necessarily like, I don't think it's I don't view it as a thing I need to shield my children from. There are things that they like. Like you saw my boy for whatever reason you he doesn't like to see c cucumbers get hard. Same kid that will go down to the ocean collect all kinds of eels and little fish and put them in a bucket to suffocate overnight. And you're like, hey, man, let's let these we're gonna die. And he's like, but but a seagull or I'm sorry, a c cucumber. He wept over the death of the c c cumber. So I don't know. I don't run around spending a ton of time like thinking that there's something wrong with what seems to be like really natural things about my kids. And I do put a ton of weight on what were my experiences and what are the experiences of the people that I love and associate with the most, and the people that I have sciate with the most and that I love the most. Grew up around catching fish, cutting them up and cleaning them, shooting squirrels, cutting up and cleaning them. And they turned into like, despite all of it, turned into like the most stellar individuals that I've found on the face of the planet. So I'm just not gonna now like buy into this idea that we need to question it all. Yeah. We took some folks into the frank Church Wildern a couple of weeks ago. Um, one of which was a pscytarian that had never killed her own fish, so he took care of that. And another gal who had never caught or killed the fish. But can you explained that? So she was just eating fish, not eating it was the only protein. Yeah. And and this is because I put out a big spread for the first night, the only animal protein. Yeah, only animal protein. Yeah. And I took it to me and like, oh, you just don't like process food. It was like I got moves, I got all the and it was sweet, but it was like, no, I can eat none of that. That's where the last silver salmon of the year came in. But so it was an amazing, amazing thing. And these gals are in their mid thirties. Um caught their first fish, killed their first fish with shaking hands, coached them through cleaning these trout and that that was very tough. But I have opened up the stomach contents and look at stuff and that actually made things better by turning into a little bit more of a science project. So that might be a good tip for this fellow. But I have women are vicious. Yeah, they're crazy. There is something in the brain that when they know they can provide it. I've seen it before and on this trip was no different. Once these gals had caught, cleaned, cooked on the campfire and eating their own fish and actually shared the fish with others, there's no doubt in my mind they would have sat there and cleaned that lake out, like to the point, hey, we've caught enough fish where you you said, like you basically said, you know, it is okay for there to be some brutality in your life. Yes, and it was this quick and actually for yourself and it's food, and oh I can aid it. You know, the whole process, they're like, oh, out of the lake, into the fire food. They would not have stopped. They were had to be forcefully, forcefully removed from the lake. I knew a follow up because what I do worry about, I'd like to hear. Your take is that I don't because I don't worry about, you know, painting their nightmares with deer gut guts and blood. But I do worry about pushing it too hard. And then we have and has a couple of friends that have you know, adult kids now that aren't really hunters a few days a year and because it got shoved down there. Yeah, they just were pushed too hard as youngsters. And so I do worry about that more and really try to you know, balance it out with you know, dance class and um, you know, other things a little girls like, and then we have hunting and fishing, you know, and I try to really balance it and so and not jam it down their throat. Yeah, I think about that, and I know people say it and I've even said it before, but I feel like, um, I kind of view like with our kids, I'm like, they're either gonna be let's do this full balls or not, you know. And so I haven't really worried that much about being really careful about like, oh, you know, we're gonna be on the water an hour and if you want to stay, I'm gonna get you office. I don't want to burn you out. I just haven't thought about it, like I know people say it, but I've pushed him because I think a big thing that I want to expose them to through hunting and fishing is I want to expose them new ideas about like being comfortable being uncomfortable, okay, So like getting used to the idea that when you're uncomfortable, you're still okay, that when your board you're still okay. That these are things that that that lead to other things, right that there's like you you pass through this and come out the other side and it's like more amazing than anything you could have imagined. So if I just went up and set it up that everything was like this like really easy time, not only the thing you want to make it like an always like a success are always an easy time. But you know, not hunting fish, you know, twenty one days in a row. You know, I got what you're saying, Like, yeah, okay, that you're only reading only read hunting stories at night, you know, throw out you know, no more James and Giant Peach would just read about Yeah no, no, I am sensitive that I thought you were saying something different. I am sensitive to that, like like I do really want well rounded and it's like in my setup, in my way, my life structure, I can't escape the well rounded nous I don't have. We're not like in a place and sort of in a professional space where we could just do that one thing all the time. I think, like, I think we get a lot of that. That I've gotten a lot of uh mileage out of is that hunting and fishing has really opened up a lot of conversations and gives you a template to discuss a lot of things that are otherwise very difficult to discuss. I remember we're cleaning perch with my boy this he's seven now four or five. We're cleaning perch and we're looking at I don't know, we're flaying pink Sam sorry, we're looking at eggs, like like sperm sacks and eggs, and I'm like yo, uh and he and I was explaining. I'm like, she like she lays him out on the rocks on the bottom of the river and he comes in and just sprays the milk or semen on those eggs and that's how it's fertilized. And it was like it just took a second for him to think that that delivery mechanism would not work with human beings. And I then I had like then I explained him, like the difference, Right, there's the other way of delivering the sperm more directly to the egg. And the next day he may you can explain that to Ryan and me. Yeah, I keep I keep needing to change where I'm aiming, so I'm not gott aim back this lay you gotta he got a packer, uh he um. The next day. I the next day I overhear him He's explained this to his nanny and he says, and my mom did that three times, So it does. Yeah, this gives you, like, like I think, but everything man like set. You know, it's like the like sex and death right like death, sex violence. It just get gets you in a way of it just like opens up all this way to have all these conversations and that just like based off like books you read. You're like looking at like actual real ship on the land or on the ground or in the water, and you're talking about like real things that have major implications. So if there is some added risk that you're gonna raise a socio path because you guys went and flay to perch. I don't know. Um, I just don't think it's a real issue. I'm done. What was that? I mean, everybody tracking, anybody have like a big like a thing they need to add. Question everyone's tracking, Go ahead, what is the thing you gotta add? What is each of your favorite animals done? All type of game animal? You look at that, honey? Nothing really Now I'm just thinking if you should give him hell or not for asking that question. Man, I know what yours is. Well, it's just a difficult questions because there's like elcohol, which is just not fun. But it's like what I do most of the time, but you recognize it just yeah, it's a vision quest. It's not intended to be enjoyable, but just pure enjoyment like squirrels probably just as like having fun. Yeah. Yeah, for me, it used to be like I after having done it a handful of times, it was doll sheet, But now I think that, like, um, I really I just really enjoy hunting mule deer because I like to spend a lot of time sitting up on a glass and tip just watching. It's like, yeah, it's like a pretty like there's a lot of opera tunity There's a lot of opportunities in a lot of places, and I just like to I just I like those days where the day just passes and you just observe you and Mule, You're like really lends itself to that you're kind of being most constructive, sometimes being most constructive by just not doing anything, just watching, watching, watching. So yeah, dear mules, spotting it before your buddy, what's all about? When I had dogs, I would have traded anything for bird hunting. Um the Yeah, I don't. I mean, I truly enjoy it all. It's very, very tough, but yeah, mule there is is absolutely my most favorite thing in the world. When I'm hunting mule here, It's not like I'm everythinking about being some other place. Uh, but I love calling things an you know, duck, skies, elk deer or whatever. So uh, that's answer everything. Yeah, give me, give me a lot of vacation time and I'll fill it. Buglin bulls for sure. Really, that's real precise. I like that you're uh, what are your thoughts on hunting? This guy has a lot of questions. I feel like you go a little bit of axtagrind justin burden maybe, I mean not a bad way. What are your thoughts on hunting? Uh? He points out white tailed deer in the preserve, so he's talked about it was like animals raise in the pen raise environment, like high wired deer hunt. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that they're hunting fenced up animals? For me, I'd like i'd put it more on the grocery side of things, on the hunting side of things. Yeah, it's it's called farming. Like, yeah, I mean that's that's the only problem I have with is the confusion they're creating with farming and hunting. But there's that there's the added level of then of that they are in. Like the action is very similar, right, you just like go and kill this farm race thing. But then in post when it's consumed or talked about, the farm animal remains the farm animal and it's just eating. But the supposed hunted behind high fence animal sort of might have this that dude as a tool if he tries to be like yeah, and there, I knew there was a fence just a little ways down. That's what I'm saying is that's it's it's it is the same, and it's not the same, So it might even be worse somehow. It's like morally worse, worse than farming. But you have farm animals on your property and I've gone on with you and shot him to head of the twenty two lambs. It's just for me, it's like, there's no confusion between the right. We're talking about a situation here now that has all the trappings of hunting, but it's not hunting. But I don't get confused by it. There's a fence, but why do people why do people like could create the confusion? Yeah, I don't know. Well, then you can blow this thing way up right and you talk about South Africa and it's like, well, yeah, but it's twenty anchors fenced, right, But is that the I mean, that's not really question right. I don't know. It's an enormous gray area. I I put it the gym pose with who's like a like a kind of hunting philosopher. I put the question about it to him, and I was pointing it to him where I was saying, like, no one would say that you're bad if you raise sheep in a pen and shoot sheep and eat them. There's nothing like there's no ethical. That's the ethically wrong. That's just how we get me. It's like farming right ethically a okay, But why do when when a guy raises up a deer, puts camouflage clothes on, goes through some of these sort of like some of it, goes adopts many of the trappings of hunting, shoots the pander, and then positions it as being that he hunted it. Like why does that feel wrong? Like? Why does that feel wrong? But I don't think it's wrong. I don't think any of it of his unethical. It's all the first part of it that's all his own business. And then the last part where he reacts like he hunted it, that's just annoying. I don't think if it as an ethical issue, yeah not yeah not. But but he had a really interesting point about the business positives at an interesting point about the business of selling wild animals. So where you take wild animals, raise them in a captive environment, and then sell hunts for those wild animals. What he doesn't like about it, and he's not he doesn't pass the moral judge. He says, there's many ways to get meat, okay, But what he doesn't like about it and he and he put it and it was the kind of the most interesting take on it that I've ever heard, is positives pointed out, it's like what they're selling, they're selling the idea of a wild animal, Like the animal that you've gotten defence only has value because it is it still is brings to mind or is associative of wild animals. People don't pay to come shoot steers. So when you sell the opportunity come shoot a deer, saying like, I'm taking a thing of that that has value because of the real version that we've made a moral financial commitment to have wild life and it's created value for this animal. I'm taking that thing of value, putting it in an artificial sense and capitalizing on the value that wildness has created to sell to you. And that's that's where he finds the offensiveness is like the sort of false marketing that's going on there. But it's kind of a victimless crime. I mean, it's like you're only just it's just mental masturbation. If a guy wants to do it, it's not hurting anymore until you begin to look at and this is the point that heat again, if you were to put this to gym posits. It's a victimless crime until you get to look at issues of disease transmission, which is becoming a major issue with captive deal. So here you're in a situation where you're taking the essence of wildness selling that to someone in a situation that is threatening the existence of the side of wildness that we're all acknowledging we value anyways, by creating a fake version inside for sale. Couldn't agree more. Essence of wildness should be a meat eater branded cologne. All right, we're out of time. Oh, I was curious the last podcast came out and I didn't I've had a chance stop issue a question, Gin, But when you're on an unlimited chief hunt, you gotta check into the quota, right, And I've answered the question for myself, but you didn't answer it on the podcast. How do you see if the quota has been felt? Where those two go or two sheep shot and you gotta have a radio? Is that right? And then they put that out at noon? How's that? Oh? That's interesting questions? So, uh, he's referring to that there are and it's not just the unlimited Chief units. There are a lot of hunts where they'll have a unit. There's BlackBerry units like this and all kinds of areas where they have like a minimum um, they have a maximum mortality threshold that they're going to achieve in a population, and so sometimes it's limited to females, like like you might have a Mountain lion unit where they're they have a maximum female mortality threshold of three. So the season's gonna stay open until they hit that cap. And in those situations where you're hunting in one of those units, you need to stay apprized whether the season is still open, and they'll usually make it that they're gonna be like that. It closes on forty eight hour notice, so someone kills the third female. Let's say they'll put out a notice and you have forty eight hours. Let's say you're on a ten day hunting trip. Um, how do you know? And you either you gotta make a phone call, so you either walk out and you know, go to a pay phone like in the old days or now a lot of people carry satellite phones, or you time or you time your thing out where you know that like you can check it at the trailhead and it's still open, so you know that you have at least forty eight hours and then you need to recheck again. But you have it's your respect in those like quota system things that your responsibility be constantly checking in to make sure the quota threshold has been met. I don't Pete munic. Pete Mutick yelled out, is it sat phone? Pete didn't come left? Is Kurt here? It is the hunter's responsibility at a radio station that would you know? You bought your little radio and they play it at say or whatever time. That's what I read. I was just curious. Yeah, no, I'd like to get hear from Kurt, but he's dead. Um Matt concluding thoughts, oh Man woll that was kind of a conversation, stopper. I came in har enjoy I enjoyed chatting with you all in front of a bunch of people. Was a bright light in my face. No, like big meaning of all things. No, I don't have like some big like umbrella statement that I could make. Sorry you didn't tell me. I had to be prepared to do that. Yeah, well you know what. I wasn't ask it, but we ran out of time. As a dude named Joe March had this what makes it good human being? So I attempted to, like, uh, you know, hold court about like Kant's categorical imperative or Nietzsche's Nietzicie's idea of a ubermant or something like that. But I think I'm just gonna offer not what is a sufficient condition for being a good human being? But I'll offer what is a necessary condition, And I'd say that that's supporting public lands. That's good. So call I have, We're gonna run with what's the good? What makes it good human being? As the concluders what makes a good human being? Patience? Really, what if what if you're patiently waiting to kill a small child? Well, perhaps in that situation, while you are waiting there for your opportune moment, you have an epiphany and move on. Yeah, uh kind of go a trust and commitment. Yeah, you gotta flesh it out a little bit. I mean they can't, just because I just feeling it's a little not soft. It's a little bit like I'm like, yeah, like the white supremacy of that. Ah, Matt just made too good concluding thoughts, Um, well, I don't. I just feel like that if you if you have those two things, man, you can kind of tackle anything and continue on and do well and think all things that you try in relationships and jobs in the universe. And I agree, but you're taking for granted an enormous amount that they're trusting and committing to a thing that is that is of good. That's true, Um, because I had I had lugs you to like think about this, because I'm the guy with the computer with the questions on and I'm like, when I was saying that's an unfair man, you sound way more like, Yeah, I don't want you to think. Don't don't think I spent too much time on this. We're just shuffle and we were just kind of still doing this. My wife convouished me. I was mess to where I don't have any you know, I'm flying off the coffee here. I didn't think about this one because I questioned whether it was, like, you know, within our bailo Wick, right, Like I questioned whether it was this question, yeah, like does it fit the theme what the show is about? And no, but there's something really seductive about it. It's just like six clean words, man, and what makes it good human being? And when I had the lugs you thinking about this, you guys, and I would be like, I think I kept thinking, like, what level of fine tuning are we in while I'm talking with this, please think about the commitment stuff, because I do want to hear more, but like, do you be like what level of fine tuning? When we make a show, we start out where we're talking about like big, huge problems things, and then later like you know that, like second, can we change that second so that second you know? Were you like you're so like so good human being? I'm like, are we what where is he now to begin sort of shaping him and advising him. And the reason I was thinking about that as like, up until a couple of days ago, I wouldn't think that had to be like, oh, don't be a white supremacist. There's a starter, right, like you're setting the guy asking the question to be like, but now I'm like, oh, so we're starting out like we're starting out like really broad basics ship that we're not able to hone in on, like the fine tune details that you don't know if he's at the Ten Commandments level or if he's kind of further down on the road, and taking like this like great guy, right, and he's being like, yes, you trust the commitment, like you've got it, like you're head in the right direction, you know. Um so yeah, if I think about what makes a good human being, I'll tell you like a thing I like in people that like in people when someone is holds this contradiction where they're really um steadfast okay, but also really open to all the ideas floating around. But all the ideas floating around. Don't make him be like this, right, the ideas floating around, make him just be like this right, you see in my hands even moving side to side like you know, then I in in in that is like that's the thing I like, That's the thing I like that I think about and strive towards and like and just try to keep in mind as a hiding thing, like just being aware of all these things and and and enjoying the movement rather than you know, our father hated movement, like he hated if you thought, Like if you thought something that these you didn't like it that you like your Yeah, I like your what you're saying, Like all your beliefs are at least somewhat contingent, but you believe in them real hard somewhat quite a bit. Yeah, maybe we have. And it was thought I can't add to I can't add to you know what. I feel like that was sufficient thought. So what would you say to someone specifically a woman there was a hunter before and still is, but has a hard time hunting after giving birth because of the beauty of life. Yes, I wouldn't urge you to go hunt. I remember what. I think. That's something I think that some like things that happened to people are like pretty like I don't probably legitimate. Yeah, I think it's a great question. I don't think anybody that should doesn't want to go home and should go home. It's not that I don't want to, I think, and I tell my husband this, it's like, once you've given life, it's harder to take a life, which sounds ridiculous, but no, I think I've heard this from other women before. You just watch the whole process play out, and it gives it like a level of saying. And it's not anti hunting, because we live off the meat and we process it ourselves, and so it's not anti hunting at all. But it's almost harder for me to be able to go hunting now after giving birth to a human beat no objections. Continue to support public lands. Be patient, um beat in tune to the idea that you might shift on that, but then remain steadfast and uh focus, all right. Thanks for joining us,