00:00:00 Speaker 1: The average American spends nearly seven hours a day looking at a screen, but less than five hours a week outside in nature. More than eighty three percent of Americans now live in urban areas, and the average citizen lives nearly six miles from the nearest natural area. We as a people are becoming more and more disconnected from the wild world, while at the same time, researchers are finding in study after study that time outside in that wild world has dramatic and measurable benefits for both our physical and mental well being. Not to mention it's just a dang good time. Our culture and communities and technology are making a wild life lived outside harder than ever to achieve. But there are still many who are rejecting the status quo and choosing instead to build that very kind of life in working to make sure that it remains possible for others as well. In these people, I think we can find a model, a prescription of sorts that any one of us can follow to live a wilder life, a life lived closer to the land, a more fulfilling, healthier, happier life outside. My guest today, river Horse Nagadate, is one such person. River Horse is a native Texan, a waterman to his core, a die hard angler, a passionate advocate for the wild world, and the author of the newly released fantastic book Waterlines, a life on marshes, rivers, seas, and in the rain. I've invited him to join me here today to discuss the choices and sacrifices he had to make to build a life like this close to the wild world, a life in which wildness and water and fishing are seemingly never far away, the challenges enjoys of becoming an advocate for these things, and the lessons he's learned while writing and filmmaking in defense of the Boundary Waters and other wild water filled paradises like it. Thanks for being here. This is Future Wild, brought to you by Conservation First Bank River Horse Nagadatta. Thank you so much for joining me. 00:02:36 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so good to be here. I can't believe we finally get to catch up hang out. This is awesome. 00:02:41 Speaker 1: I agree. I agree. I've been able to kind of follow some of your exploits from Afar with your writing and social media and some films. But this book that you just wrapped up, or that I just wrapped up reading a few weeks ago. I feel like that has brought me so much more into your world and made me even more intrigue and excited to have this conversation. So thanks for thanks for making the time for this. 00:03:05 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I wouldn't miss it. This is great. 00:03:08 Speaker 1: I gotta start kind of with a high level question though that maybe gets right to the center of things that I think seemingly this conversation will revolve around, and probably your world revolves around a little bit too, So I want to read a little excerpt of something you wrote once and just get your thoughts on that, so I'll quote here. Water has held my heart aloft through everything in this life. Water has given me endless hope and desire, the unbridled passion to seek and explore, as well as the steadfast understanding that we must do everything we can to protect it. If I'm not on water, I am somewhere on my way to it, no matter what day it is. What is it about water and fish and everything kind of revolving around that world that's captured you just so completely. 00:04:02 Speaker 2: Mean, I love that you pulled that quote out. I mean, you're that kind of reader. You don't just read the lines, you read beyond the lines, and you know you're that great writer. I've loved reading your books. But how do you even approach water? Is it even real? Is this whole life? 00:04:18 Speaker 3: Really? 00:04:18 Speaker 2: You've got some substance that's seventy percent of our bodies, let alone just the things that it does. It can evaporate into the air. Then you can watch the clouds go by. Maybe it came from the Caribbean and then it lands in Montana on the Gallatin when you're hanging out on the river in big sky. 00:04:37 Speaker 3: Is this even real? There will never be a day. 00:04:41 Speaker 2: But I'm not crazy for wilderness and life, Like, I don't even believe this is incredible that we even get to be here, you know what I mean. 00:04:48 Speaker 3: So, plus, here's the deal of water. We're not going to live. 00:04:52 Speaker 2: If we don't have clean water. We're out of here. Life's already fragile enough. The water is everything. 00:05:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, have you always felt that way? Was that something that you were just born with this innate sense of connection to that or were there some of those foundational life experiences that then got you to this point where it feels as if water's not so much just an entity but almost like a spiritual I'm lacking the right way to describe it, but it feels spiritual when I hear you speak about it. Where did that come from? When did that start? 00:05:29 Speaker 3: So? 00:05:30 Speaker 2: My mom's from Spaahawk Village, which is a Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma, and she got pregnant as a teen you read it in the intro, But she dropped out of high school, got a ged, and she gets into the University of Texas at Austin. 00:05:45 Speaker 3: So we go there. 00:05:46 Speaker 2: That's where I'm born, and she's on government assistant housing. And the river is in the backyard, like steps from where I get to grow up. 00:05:55 Speaker 3: So I'm in that river. You know, she's a young mom just saying go wild. 00:06:00 Speaker 2: And I don't think anything changed since then, Like you can't get me out of the river or the ocean or anything. So that was my world growing up. It's either that or just at the library reading books. So I just I feel like I was born this way, just wired weird for water and wilderness, let alone the things that happened in my life from there. It's just all It just seems like the path is the path, like that things are going to play out like they're supposed to play out. 00:06:30 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:06:31 Speaker 1: So it's funny you mentioned that, though, because as I read this book and you kind of get a sense of of this life that you are experiencing, it seems like there's very little that's ever standing in your way between you and water. It seems like your life revolves around it, whether it's fishing or canoeing, or being out there in one way or another, whether it's the you know, the salt marshes or a bass pond or going out to the mountains. You describe so many different experiences like that, and the way I read it, it seemed to me that that is not by accident. It seemed to me that you have actually quite purposefully built a life like this. And I thought about that as was reading, and I was actually sitting outside this morning thinking about it, and was a little bit envious. And I'm very fortunate compared to a lot of people, and that I have a lot of time to be able to get out on water and get outside and do things. But in reading your stories, I felt like you had even less friction than I have in trying to step away from the computer or other obligations. And I imagine there are a lot of choices. There were some things along the way that you had to either sacrifice or work for in order to build a life like that. Can you tell me a little bit about what that has been like? Am I? Am I right that this was quite purposeful? Or did you fall into this seemingly beautiful existence out there experiencing these things? 00:08:05 Speaker 3: Now? 00:08:06 Speaker 2: You know, part of my heritage is Cherokee obviously, and a lot of Northern Scandinavian indigenous, and I feel there is a magic or something in that bloodline that makes you have this bewildered reverence for wilderness you want to be out in it. So I would say that in that sense, it wasn't a choice, But the rest of my life is an absolute choice to be this Texas kid, where there's three hundred and thirty one miles of Barrier Island, coastlines, seven hill countries, Spring Fed Rivers, Pineywood Lakes, Big Ben. It is unbelievable down here. So then it was just that, you know, I just spieled meant to be. But all of it's been a choice. You know, I didn't move to with all respect, I didn't move to Nebraska to study sand Hill Cranes with Ted Kruser Andybody, Like I'm a Texan kid and I want to be around all this wilderness, and you know, I won't. 00:09:02 Speaker 3: Pretend that it's been great. 00:09:04 Speaker 2: Like in the book there's that hot romance you get to read in there, and even in the romance section when I fall in love, it takes me a year to allow this person into my life, like to actually come and visit me. That's you know what a player I am if it takes me that long to get a date, like, but that's from so many crash and burns where you just know, not everybody wants to hang with somebody who loves sleeping in a canoe or the dirt or and I don't blame them, but you have guys, people I guess that cannot stop living for wilderness. 00:09:40 Speaker 3: You know, we eat, breathe and sleep. 00:09:42 Speaker 2: It's just a different kind of life. 00:09:45 Speaker 3: Like for you to find a partner in that. 00:09:48 Speaker 2: There's been a lot of times when it didn't work out, and that's painful stuff, Like nothing cuts the bone like that when you when send when things don't work out. But so there's a trade off, but you're absolutely one hundred percent right, Like my world is out there. 00:10:05 Speaker 3: I'm not a concrete kind of guy. 00:10:07 Speaker 2: I don't like buildings, and I understand all that, but it doesn't make sense to me. 00:10:11 Speaker 3: Nature. 00:10:12 Speaker 2: All that is where I can only begin to understand life. What is the meaning of this and what's my place in it? So yeah, it's a choice. But I mean, you're I think Texas is like the saltwater Montana. 00:10:25 Speaker 3: I like that. 00:10:26 Speaker 2: You guys are about to have the best life. Just you just upgraded. Michigan is incredible. Yes, the winters are tough. 00:10:35 Speaker 3: You know. 00:10:35 Speaker 2: I've paddled that canoe of icebergs and it was not my favorite. 00:10:41 Speaker 3: Yeah, we are. 00:10:43 Speaker 1: We are excited for the for the Montana adventure that's ahead of us, that's for sure. 00:10:49 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well you've been down here Texas, right, yep. 00:10:53 Speaker 1: I've done a little bit of hunting down there, and I've actually got family around New Brunfels, so growing up with a decent time visiting down there. So pretty pretty, pretty cool area. Have not been able to experience the fishing, though, which is something on my on my list. 00:11:09 Speaker 2: Yeah all right, please please come hang with me. I got so much room in the canoe, and if you gave me forty eight hours. I will change your stars. You can't talk about it. I mean you can talk about it. You can't. You can't tell anybody where we were like yeah, I you know, I'm a surfer for much of my life. Like please don't. We're not gonna blow these spots, but no problems. You like, you will say, wow, that was I'll send you home. You'll be ready to take a nap for days. 00:11:39 Speaker 1: I'm going to take you up on that. 00:11:40 Speaker 3: I like that. 00:11:41 Speaker 1: I like that proposal. It expand a little bit for me on what you described there kind of briefly, that that set of choices you had to make to live this life. Because I think a lot of people are going to read this book and they're gonna say, I want that life. I want to be able to hop in the new and go bass fission, or I want to go drive an hour down the road and be on the coast in the salt marsh. I want to be able to be taking JT. Van stand out on the boat and have some epic adventure. People want to live those stories themselves. But it's one thing to read about it, and it's another thing to actually build a life that allows you to do those things. So can you just walk me through maybe some of those pivotal choices or some of those forks in the road or something along those lines that would maybe help us paint a picture of how you got there and what someone might be thinking about themselves when trying to build this kind of close to the earth life. 00:12:43 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:12:44 Speaker 2: Well, I mean I've always chosen coastlines in the world. So you know, maybe I got an education degree and literature and I really think teaching is noble. I love my time with those kids, but part of that is that I have almost two hundred days a year when I'm not in that. 00:13:05 Speaker 3: Class with kids where I can run wild. So that was a choice. 00:13:08 Speaker 2: I didn't go into the business world or becomes some insurance agent like that is not me. And I just you know, it doesn't mean you're affluent. But what is the value of sunsets in the middle of a salt worse? Like that is a million dollar Give me a grilled cheese sandwich in a salt marsh, and I own the world, Like there's no billionaire that can touch my life. Yeah, they only dream of that. But so I made all these choices. I have never not made that choice. I don't, and anybody can do it. But even those guys and gals that are nine to five and stuff like you have access to wilderness. Well, I mean as we fight for it these days. But no, make those choices. It's there for you. Life is so fragile and short, and if you haven't figured that out, you need to read more. 00:14:01 Speaker 3: We're barely here. 00:14:02 Speaker 2: I feel like I have tons of life left, I hope, other than what you read about in the book where almost died twenty times. And that's because just like, go for it. It's not because I know what I'm doing or anything. How that, like your kids, you need to tap into those kids of years because that's one of the secrets of life is having the heart of a child. 00:14:26 Speaker 3: Ah, and you always make those good decisions for a good life, like chasing dreams and stuff. Yeah, but I don't. I just I couldn't do it. You can't. 00:14:36 Speaker 2: If you wake me up somewhere away for woods or water, I'm gonna I can't breathe. 00:14:42 Speaker 3: So make those choices. 00:14:44 Speaker 1: There's this kind of famous parable sorts that I'm sure many of us have heard some version of, Like there's the guy, there's a businessman who goes down to some island, let's say, in the Caribbean, and he meets someone just just a local native fisherman there who lives in a small hut and all day every day, he fishes all day. And he comes home and he has a wonderful meal with his family and they sit out on the beach in the water and they enjoy it. And this really rich business guy came in to do some fishing there for his one weekend off for the year, and he comes in and he meets this fisherman, and that fisherman, you know, tells him what he just did all day. And the businessman said, geez, you know, that sounds great and all, but really you've got a missed opportunity here. If you would just hire more people and invest more capital instead of just catching you know, the five fish you caught today, you could catch one hundred of them and then sell those fish and hire five more people and build a bigger business. And if you did that for ten years, then maybe you would have enough money to sell that business and create a larger one. And the fisherman kind of quietly listens the whole time, and then after that business guy explains this whole process and all the different work this guy would have to do to build this business. The fisherman says, well, then what would I do after I built this business and sold it and do all these different things? And the guy says, well, then you would have enough money to go fishing all day and catch a few fish and come home and eat those fish with your family and then sit on the beach and enjoy the sunset. Right, And that that that fisherman had it all figured out from the very beginning, because he was doing that from day one before having to go sacrifice this whole time and lifestyle to try to someday achieve what you could actually, as you just said, have with a with a you know, grilled cheese sandwich and a salt marsh. So it's it's a tough lesson for a lot of us to learn, though, isn't it. 00:16:30 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:16:30 Speaker 2: But I mean I felt like that my whole life. Like I get it, And that doesn't mean that everybody has to live this. Like, more power to you. If you want the you know, the golden retriever and the big mc mansion stuff, that's awesome, that's okay, you know, but I don't want a life that revolts around chasing materialism and sitting in front of a TV screen and like, I don't there's so many things that don't hold value to me. There's so few things that are sacred, and I just I go wild for those things. 00:17:03 Speaker 3: I'm pitching at the choir with you. 00:17:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I reread that Wild Country that book here is for the third time because I just I want to go there on those adventures. That's why having this book is such a dream with Pat. Yeah, I think books are magical, cosmic portals that you can live other lives and stuff. How was it pictured Rocks with your dad and your sister? Yes, that was the greatest story it was. You're so right, it is. It is, And we're we're kind of. 00:17:37 Speaker 3: I don't know. 00:17:38 Speaker 1: I don't want to say we're relics of a bygone age, but I do worry that some people are losing the connection to the magic of books today. Right, there's so many other distractions, But I don't think anything can replace the magic of that of that portal you just described, which which books uniquely can provide you. You can use you just said, you can live another life, You can step into somebody else's shoes and walk in them. And that book is eternal. You know, somebody fifty years from now, one hundred years and from now could pick up this book and they could live a little slice of your life. They could see textas they could see assault marsh through your eyes. And that's a beautiful thing and a really powerful thing too. It gives you immense opportunity to influence. How often do you think about that river Horse about not just the fun that we're having and the joy that we're having in having these experiences and then sharing them with other people, but do you ever think about I don't know if obligation is the right word, but there's something there when people read your words, they read this book, or they hear you on the podcast like this, and they hear about these things that you're sharing. How do you think about that maybe responsibility that comes with that. 00:18:54 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there is in a day that I wake up that I'm not writing them. It's for how I can give back to the world. It sounds cheesy a bit, so as a writer, you know, you start to find your voice and that's pretty cool, and we all go through that. But then eventually, if you do well enough you get support or an audience or something, and somehow a tree hugger from Texas lands with Padagoonya. You know, I've always wanted to be with those guys. But when when companies are people are support get behind you like that, then it's just game over. 00:19:32 Speaker 3: Like things are so powerful. 00:19:34 Speaker 2: So about ten years ago is when those guys really said, Okay, revorse, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna handle some of these gear and get you out on some of these and supporting. When that happened, I knew I had no choice, like this is my chance to give back. So you can't just live your whole life for yourself. You just can't. It's not it's not healthy, and it's not service. 00:19:58 Speaker 3: You know. 00:19:58 Speaker 2: That's part of those Buddhism books that I was talking about things I learned. But I know that being a part of that team gives me the audience to make a difference, let alone the films and all that. So it isn't a choice but us every day, Mark, I got just like you. I have so many projects lined up that I want to do or places to save, and especially now it's such a unique stretch of life. So when your book came out in twenty nineteen and you were celebrating the beauty and part. So much has changed since then in public lands and everybody's getting all you know, there's people that are losing their way with this, and that's the absolute wrong way to ticket. Like, sometimes it's darkest before the greatest life. The only we don't roll over. The only choice we have is to make change. And every victory, victory we get is for generations, So don't lose sight of this. I live for this stuff. I live for these small victories. Sometimes we gotta take a wrong turn and get back on track with each other. And I just think this is that stretch everybody else is thinking that the sky is falling, and I'm like, no, no, this is just that stretch where we got to hunger down and open up a can of whoop pass and do this stuff. And what's funny is all of us Americans love parks and wilderness and there's no argument here. So the only factor is a few people maybe getting some cash out of this. And whoever those people are, we need to gently move them to other places and to put our people, like America as a whole is an incredible country. We all want the same stuff, like a good parks and wilderness, So I don't I just feel so differently than everything I'm reading and seeing. I'm like, no, I'm going to get up every day and ride about the Levaca River and go canoe it and meet with all these ranchers and save that from a Taiwanese chemical company that to stay in Taiwan, and yeah, so many projects, and I just I would endlessly believe in us. It's humans because hope is everything in life, Like, don't lose that even if it gets tough, like you know, Brett, bear down even harder on these guys. 00:22:17 Speaker 1: How do you? How do you foster that? 00:22:20 Speaker 3: Like? 00:22:20 Speaker 1: How do you how do you build that capacity to do what you're saying? Because I think you're right. There's a lot of people right now who are reading the news or seeing these different things that have been happened over the last couple of years that are really discouraging. And some people are throwing their hands up in the air and saying, ah, it's you know, everything's going down the drain. Some people are saying, well, there's nothing I can do about it, So I'm just gonna stick my head in the sand and ignore it. Some people are becoming overwhelmed with it. They're trying to follow it, they're trying to be good citizens, they're trying to do something, but it's it's breaking them or it's disheartening them. How do you deal with that? How do you how do you get the energy to have that hope and to keep on keeping on? 00:23:01 Speaker 3: So, you know, I get it. 00:23:03 Speaker 2: I understand that that's a natural sentiment, but that's just wood on the fire For me. I'm like, oh, oh man, watch this, hold my beer. We're gonna save the Bounding Waters a tenth time or whatever like. And so the easiest way to do that is to surround yourself with some sort of local community where you are what matters to you, some sort of place where this group kindid souls are taking action. And I just help people find that. Padigona has that big list of action works and stuff. You have millions of that. You're a sportsman sort of bounding Waters and freaking meat Eater does incredible things like find your local community. You don't have to go to Lapland and live with the Sami tribe like I did and make that film. 00:23:49 Speaker 3: There's there's something right down the street from you. 00:23:52 Speaker 2: There are people like you, and there's such strength in those numbers. 00:23:56 Speaker 3: So just find local. Find local. 00:23:59 Speaker 1: That's a great point. So you brought the Boundary Waters. Having to save that for the tenth time. Talk to me about your experience there, how you first you know, arrived there, what those initial kind of baptismal experiences maybe were like when you fell in love with that place, and then what drew you to try to, you know, help protect it and tackle those projects that you did with the articles you wrote in the film you worked on and everything since. 00:24:27 Speaker 2: So selfishly it was my same mo like, I'm looking for pure wilderness, place of wilderness where I can disappear, and I don't mind if there's giant ke engraving there that helped. 00:24:41 Speaker 3: Yeah, I just even at. 00:24:43 Speaker 2: A grad Soale, I'll jump out and buy a globe from the nineteen thirties to see how things have shifted and with the change. I want to be in those places. Yeah, do whatever it takes, unloaded trucks at night, I'll teach middle school. I'll play in a crappy band every pinn. I gotta live it while I'm here. So Boundy Waters is one of those places, and I had no idea, like I kind of did in Minnesota. In general, is packing so much beauty. It's so underrated with the Great Lakes, you know, superior. Oh what a what a post point of beauty for the world. 00:25:20 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:25:21 Speaker 2: So I just I got all the maps and I had read about this waterfalls that's the last lake on the way to Canada. I was like, Okay, I want to make it to that waterfall, or try to. I'll drag it. I'll drive from Texas twenty some iris and pack in the gear and go two hundred miles and get there. So I did it, and you see, you know you read it in the book, but it just messed me up, as it always does. I'm out there in the since that I've got tears on my cheekbones because I'm like. 00:25:54 Speaker 3: Oh, this is is for my Look at this place. 00:25:56 Speaker 2: It's exploding in golds, nobody's there. The eco system is healthy, and it's all of our public wilderness. Every person listening to this owns that place. 00:26:07 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:26:07 Speaker 2: So I come out and you know, like I said, the path is the path. I meet Tony. He sees me drying my clothes and trees and eat a muffin at a coffee shop and who are you? What happened in a Submary where he's like hold the cow, like I like your piece as your work, And I know he's a filmmaker, and so I just say, let's try to say, like, let's you know, you never stopped trying to save somewhere. 00:26:30 Speaker 3: So I'd just done. 00:26:31 Speaker 2: That was high, high as a kite from that beauty, and we just rolled up our sleeves and went for it. And that doesn't mean that not that it was scary, but we're fighting against a Chilean billionaire like he could do anything to us. And I'm like, yeah, bring it, like I was stand in court alone. And the facts are the facts. This is our country. So I'm not going to go too far into it because the backstory of things, you know, how all that happens, and how the illegal lease came about, and even what Stober did. Anyway, here's the facts. Twenty percent of the freshwater and the entire US war system is there that's sacred. There's a Chilean guy with a track record of environmental disasters. He wants to come in mind at the headwaters of that wilderness of those types of minds are toxic, they release pollutions. Never been one in history that didn't fail. 00:27:33 Speaker 3: And then in the in the. 00:27:35 Speaker 2: Recent wording of that it would give this guy access to our public wilderness and perpetuity. 00:27:41 Speaker 3: Are you kidding me? 00:27:42 Speaker 2: And then to add on to it, he says, oh, by the way, I'm going to send whatever materials I get to Russia and China, not you guys. So on a million levels, this is wrong. 00:27:52 Speaker 3: Am I anti mining? Absolutely not. 00:27:56 Speaker 2: I love you know cell phone that I can GPS my way out of something where I messed up or something, or check the weather. I'm all for it, but let's not do it in the wilderness. And then let's use our people and keep the materials and take care of each other with it. Like so, I mean, what else is there to say about the Bondy waters. So there's a thing called do you know about the bad actor? 00:28:19 Speaker 3: Bill? 00:28:20 Speaker 1: Uh? 00:28:21 Speaker 3: No? Okay, this is awesome, really power. 00:28:24 Speaker 2: So no matter what federal says on the federal level, if they say, oh, something such can come, here's the least they can do a mine in your state, that state has the right to say you're a bad actor, You're not good for us, not healthy sign that and say you're not coming here. So Minnesota has that capacity right now as I understand it, and they haven't signed it yet. You know, the governor there needs to sign that. Everybody's pushing like, come on, do something. Yeah, and most Minnesotas don't want that. So I'm excited about that. So there is a lot of hope. And you know that could be other things that I have a big conservation question for you. 00:29:07 Speaker 1: I would love to hear. 00:29:09 Speaker 2: So speaking of the Bonder waters and that stuff like gets my blood gone and it just doesn't make sense to me. And I have to like go live in a canoe for a week to even you think, okay, here we go recharge. But I remember reading Edward Abbey and Monkey Wrench and you know, and that's that's a fictional tale somewhat like different characters or Doug Peacocks in there. But those guys were kind of doing some activism that's not legal and choosing to mess up. 00:29:38 Speaker 3: Bulldozers and stuff. I was wondering. 00:29:41 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean I condone that, but I remember being a little boy watching the Japanese whaling ships get rammed by green Peace and all that, and that was all about it. 00:29:51 Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, take them out, which isn't We can't live like that in life. 00:29:56 Speaker 2: But I was wondering, in this stretch, it seems to be that might that might start popping up again. I just like, I was like, wondering, do you think that type of activism, Not that it's appropriate, but is that what's going to happen in the bounding better? 00:30:12 Speaker 3: Is it the mind? Yeah? I wonder Wow. Yeah. 00:30:17 Speaker 1: I mean it's so tricky in that there is this natural desire when you see something you care about and you feel like you are powerless in the face of these billionaires or these governmental entities or whatever it is, and they're not listening to you, and they're not taking into the public's perceptor their their positions on these things. And I mean, just like everything with the boundary waters, there's there's so many other examples of that right now, right And I think when people feel powerless, they take drastic actions, right because you want to do something. And yeah, I mean you're right, there was there's been periods in time over the last thirty forty fifth years where people did go that next level and start doing some you know, a little bit more direct action. To try to sabotage things, I guess, and you're right in that. I don't think that is that's not productive in the long run, that's not appropriate, that's not safe, that's not you know. I think we can, we can find ways to make a difference and make a statement without doing something illegal, without doing something that could hurt people. But do I think people might do that thing and go that way again? I do. I think there will always be some proportion of the world out there who says, hey, I'm going to do something no matter what, and that's the path they're going to take. And I think that I hope that the vast majority of people can can kind of funnel that energy into a positive way. The way you've talked about it, I think there's so many positive ways we can make a difference. There's so many ways that we can go and recharge in the wild and then use that in a productive way to make things better. But yeah, I mean, I get the desire to do something more drastic, and and you know, I've read the stories too and been like, heck, yeah, hey, Duke lives. You know, I mean, you have times where you would just love to kick over the bulldozer, right. I don't want to see him bulldozing roads into these roadless areas. I don't want to see him building a mine on the edge of the boundary waters. And so yeah, like when my inner emotions can take hold, you know, if I can feel that way, sometimes, I'm sure there's other people who can feel that way and maybe go further. And so I think that the unfortunate thing is that it seems most of the time when that does happen, it usually just makes things worse, because I think there's an element of trust and there's an element of perception with the environmental movement. And if we let a small group that does some things that you know, go across the line, that can paint the entire movement, that can paint our entire community in such a way that the rest of the world that lives kind of in the middle gets uncomfortable supporting, and that that can be warriorsome that could cause some problem. So I know, there's all sorts of people have different opinions on this kind of stuff. Some people think that the conservation movements should be more radical and more you know out there. Some people think we should be more cautious I don't know the right answer, river Horse, but I do know that I think the positive approach the way you speak about these, I just think like positivity always, like light always beats the dark in the end, I think, right, whether that's in our own lives, or whether that's in something like the battles for public lands right now or the environment, anything like that, I think in the end that that holds true. Of course, there's a lot of bumps in between here and there, though. 00:34:08 Speaker 2: Isn't there something beautiful about getting to the point in your life gracefully where you know, taking the high riot of the high road and playing the long game is the way to go instead of that short term you know, stuff like and do no harm. 00:34:24 Speaker 3: Whatever we're doing here. 00:34:25 Speaker 2: Just do no harm, because even if we disagree with somebody here, whatever's going on, it's still are fellow humans, like, Oh, we don't have all the answers here, I will say, for some reason, I'm on the book tour and when I'm doing engagements, everybody tries to make things political, and I don't think that. I don't care about all that stuff, Like there's two parties for the most part, who cares? 00:34:49 Speaker 3: That's awesome? 00:34:50 Speaker 2: You know that's but they seem so stuck see each other, and I just we can the whole thing. We just got to remember that, do know harm to each other, work together, and I would love to see more of that. 00:35:03 Speaker 3: I've never seen us more stuck. 00:35:05 Speaker 2: And I'm like, come on, you guys, like still, we're Americans. 00:35:09 Speaker 3: Let's let's do this. So that's part express strating me. 00:35:12 Speaker 2: But I just regardless, do no harm and yeah, and work with each other. 00:35:18 Speaker 3: What happened to that? Like, let's get back to it. 00:35:21 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you're right. I think that there's a there's a tendency these days to dehumanize other people. Is that a word dehumanized? We're stripping people away, the humanity away from folks by by sorting them into teams like you're a Republican or you're a Democrat, or you're a you know, a right wing nut and you're a crazy liberal. You know, everyone's going to put a label on someone. And then once you do that, then all of a sudden, you in some way they can be treated as less than if that if that's not your team, right, And I think it would serve us all well, even with like these issues, these conservation issues and the environmental issues that we care about. I think it's a good thing to remember that these are just people on the other side, even the folks making these decisions that I, you know, vigorously disagree with. They're humans and they're moms and dads, and they're just trying to do things. They maybe have different values than I do. They likely have different priorities than me. But you know, this is I'll share a story with you that I've shared a couple other places, actually in my new book coming out soon. But my my youngest son, well, actually, let me take a step back. This is boundary. This is a boundary water story. And so I was on a board meeting, board of director's call for sportsmen for the Boundary Waters. And this would have been early twenty twenty six, I guess it would have been or late twenty twenty five before everything that happened, you know, this spring. And I got off that call, and on that call we talked about, you know, basically the that this stuff was going to happen. I guess this must have been twenty twenty five. It's all a blur, but the Bounder Waters were likely going to lose their protections. There was going to be you know, whether it was through executive order or you know, something with the Forest Service or legislation. Right, the mineral draw was likely going to get pulled, and this stuff was going to happen. And so I walked out of that meeting that night, walked out to the dinner table, and I was just in a bad mood. I was feeling pretty bad about things. I was distraught. I was frustrated by what was happening. And I guess I let my motions show because I sat down for dinner and my kids must they could, they could pick up on it. They knew something was wrong. And so my youngest Colt, he was I guess he would have been five at the time, he says, Dad, what's what's the matter? What's going on? And and maybe I shouldn't have, you know, told him, but I did. I said, Hey, you know, Colt, there's there you know, there's there's other people in the world who just don't care about wildlife and wild places the same we do, the same way we do, and they have different priorities. They care about different things, and sometimes that means that they, you know, destroy some of the things we care about or they want to make changes to some of the things we care about. And you know, I think I shared, like there's this place, and I described the bounder waters and how they were gonna, you know, build this mine or whatever. And then you know, after I gave him this brief description of everything, he just stops and looks up at me and he says, Dad, are you gonna push the bad guys down a well? No, I'm not gonna not gonna push the bad guys down a well. But I mean, you know, in a child's eyes, right, you can see a you know, I'm trying to find ways to explain this to to my kids in a way that's understandable. But then also when you approach things from a child's perspective, you can also see how, okay, well, this person's doing something that I'm not a big fan of. So what are we gonna do? Well, like in my cartoons, we're gonna kick him down a well or push him down. But there's all the different just deep seated emotional reactions that we might have to these kinds of things. And to your earlier point, I think when you think about it from a child's perspective, sometimes it's it's understandable why we do the things we do or why we feel the way we do about these things, because it is like core human stuff. I don't I don't know what that means for how we act on it better, but it certainly can explain the emotional reactions that we have to this in so many different ways lately. 00:39:36 Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's really good for him to know that stuff. I know it is and father stands for you know, there's nothing traumatic about that. It's just honest, and it's cool. He gets to see you in your true life, with the work you do and who you are. But yeah, I mean I wanted to throw people down the weld. 00:40:00 Speaker 3: I'm not gonna do it. 00:40:00 Speaker 2: It's okay, you're gonna feel it like to their talbone or up in the can and whoop. 00:40:06 Speaker 3: And now it's good to feel that bit. 00:40:09 Speaker 2: Then that No, we're just going to tell those guys they don't get to do that. 00:40:14 Speaker 3: Here. This is a valuebook place for all of us. Good lessons. 00:40:18 Speaker 2: But man, how to teach a child to take the high road and play the long game? 00:40:23 Speaker 3: Like, wow, good luck with that. 00:40:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's been the major, just the whole thing I've I've wrestled a lot with what do you share with the kids, what do you let them see about what's happened in the world, versus do I try to preserve, you know, I do want to preserve a sense of innocence and that child life that we all enjoyed. Sometimes bliss is ignorance, For ignorance is bliss. Sorry, And and that's a beautiful thing too, So I've I've tried to be careful not to put too much of that on them, but at the same time also teach them a little bit here and there, and as you mentioned, you know, let them see through what I'm trying to do or what my wife's trying to do, hopefully a positive example for how you can engage and and and be a part of these things. But that is a tricky line to walk. I'm still figuring that out. 00:41:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet you're an incredible father. So you can't argue with joy when when you have joy together, you know, nothing's that powerful or love. And you can't argue with beauty when the kids get to see something beauty, beautiful in nature, cut some giant blue gill or whatever like, you can't argue with those things. So when you load them up with that stuff, it's just so empowering. Yeah, I'm the same for all of us, but it's a different generation. They've always said it, and now you know, there's a lot of digital stuff going on. It's just hilarious to me because I have old guitar amps and old guitars, and but it's cool to see, like vinyl records are coming back and people are depending make how people get back to the wilderness. So I think the stuff will come full circle for these kids with the technology and all the you know, they get tired of staring at the stream the screens. I think I read a year ago that the average team will spend seven years of their life looking at the screen. 00:42:19 Speaker 3: Just ah, that's so sad for those kids. 00:42:22 Speaker 2: We lived, you know, grew up a little differently, but doesn't mean we don't adapt to that and keep going out and you know, the wilderness. So those kids have a different ride. I think you got it. 00:42:33 Speaker 3: There's no book, no playbook for this anymore. 00:42:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh that that's on my mind a lot these days. And and and honestly, part of part of the big life change I just went through moving out here was was how do you provide a set of alternatives? You know, at least I've thought a lot about it. Is the world is getting more and more digital, and more and more artificial and AI and technology and screens and all that is consuming more and more of people's existence. I've been wrestling with how do I how I parent in that context, and so one of the most solid things I've been able to land on is is provide for them and present to them a compelli enough alternative that they will choose to do something different. So my thought is if I can help surround them with real, wild experiences and places and opportunities that hopefully that is something that they can then choose to dive into deeper, versus being pulled into the digital alternatives that the rest of the world is. So I don't know if that's a good call or the right call, or if that's going to work, but it's the working theory that I'm tracking towards. 00:43:46 Speaker 2: At least, No, it's going to work because they'll be in some bird or hunting stand or do stand, having a pork sandwich and ruffled chips and hanging with you guys and then get to say some deer or like it's going to work. You can't. Can't beat that stuff. That's what I saw about. So those kids are so lucky. Wow, good thing we were talking about, Abby. I was thinking about Stegner. Your book started with that beautiful Stegner quote, and that's where you got Idle. Get this my dad that comes into my life as a kindergartener and got me the literature professor from Stanford. He took three classes from Stegner. Wow, in the I mean he's old, but I didn't even know this. And I found some of the books and I called dad, and I remember that because I was looking back at your stagnant quote. And Dad said one of the classes was intro to the Short Story of Writing, and the last class he took from Stegner as a senior was called Land and Character. 00:44:47 Speaker 1: Wow. 00:44:47 Speaker 3: I was like, what do you remember? He goes. 00:44:49 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, how's jealous? Are you of that? 00:44:53 Speaker 3: Yeah? 00:44:53 Speaker 2: But I want to know what happened in that class. And even Stegner signed one of the beyond the hundredth Meridium b them and why you know, I just. 00:45:04 Speaker 3: Sorry to like side by that best. 00:45:06 Speaker 1: Oh. 00:45:07 Speaker 2: I saw your quote and used them in another place too, and it's just like, oh, Mark gets. 00:45:12 Speaker 1: It, Like, yeah, Stegner, Wallace Stegner a heck of a heck of a writer, his Wilderness Letter. If anyone hasn't heard of that, you should you should google it and read the Wilderness Letter. That's a great kind of introduction to uh, to Stegner and his writing. I was certainly, certainly influential on me. 00:45:32 Speaker 2: I would just encourage like all these old school legends, like it doesn't mean that every paragraph's good or gonna these guys like just like if you have a book of poems, if there's one poem in there that changes your blows away, it. 00:45:47 Speaker 3: Makes you feel something. That book did its job. 00:45:50 Speaker 2: So I will those are you guys that haven't read you know Walden or stegnerrself. Don't expect it to freak you, like, just find those jewels, find those gems, because that's why how you pull those quotes and stuff. So I always worry because everybody's like, oh, what's your how do you who are your influences? I'm like, oh, Man Neighborhood, his poetry and you know, Emerson and throwing, But it doesn't mean some of that stuff is brutal to get. 00:46:17 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so true. What are what are some of those books or films or poems or different pieces of art that you reach for in times like these where you need some inspiration or some peace or some guidance. I know, like after after the whole Boundery Waters thing happened, I picked up my copy of The Monkey Wrench Gang and I started rereading that. What are some some pieces that you might recommend to folks who maybe are feeling some of this or looking for some guidance or some solace. 00:46:50 Speaker 2: I mean, so one guy that people don't talk a lot about is SIGURDE. Olson, who was a Minnesota Boundary Waters writer and he read a lot of books. But that's some peaceful beauty in that, and it calms you. And not that I need that because I'm pretty mellow, but you know, I go to I went back to Olson and even Walden and Leaves the Grass and stuff like they find those pieces, and you know, I looked into those. I remember my whole I just found a book of where, oh you've seen this one around river? These are Leopold's River. It's like I found that when I was on the book tour it's got the beveled pages and it cost me a few bucks. 00:47:36 Speaker 3: But I was so happy to. 00:47:38 Speaker 2: Find that or that old Uh, I just have stacks. I'm on a book tour, but I'm buying all these books. Well, Wolf Willow, that Stegner's memoir, you got to go back to that because he's on the corner of Montana and Saskatchewan. Yeah, that's a tough book to read, too, But I just go back to the old literature. Although I won't. I like the backstory of everything in life. So if I like a band or a musician, I want to know all about them and to understand that art even more. And I couldn't believe it when I found out that the Row would go home to his mom right just a couple miles away on the weekends. Yeah, to do his wandering get suffer Like that wasn't in there. And I didn't find that out until later, and now I was like, wait. 00:48:25 Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of dampened the Walden stories a little bit when you see that backstory. 00:48:30 Speaker 2: Yeah, or Annie Diller Tinker's Creek that was part of that deal, and she's amazing like that. But yeah, I just you know, find those pieces that resonate, you got meeted her all you get there. You have such a brilliant audience that are seekers, like they know what to do if you give him some little you know, jim Or said, they'll go find it and figure out what they need to do for their life. But those well, when I got to be on that show, the fish and shawl of the same. So those guys go deep. 00:49:02 Speaker 3: There go deep. 00:49:03 Speaker 2: So it's no problem telling these guys what's fine. But not everybody's gonna want to read. Well, then they have very true, pretty weird. 00:49:11 Speaker 1: And so speaking of though reading, my son, my oldest son saw your book on my night stand and he is ate up by fishing, just absolutely ate up. Like last night at dinner, all he wanted to talk about was what everybody in the family had to pick the five fish that we have not caught yet? What are our top five fish that we haven't caught yet that we want to catch in our lifetimes And we all had to guess. He made us all guess whatever ones would be, and then we had to explain why. And then when we had to go run errands yesterday evening, all he talked to was can we please stop at the creek on the way home. Can we please stop at the creek on the way home. We got to the creek, he wanted, you know, just like that's all he wants to do. So we saw your book. He asked me what it was about. I said, well, it's about a lot of fishing and stuff like that. He's like, well, I'm gonna read and so I let him read it. And then I went back and looked at us. I was a couple of words in there that you might have taught my son that I'll blame you for someday, river Horse. But he's reading it right now and loving it. And he asked me. He's like, hey, can I ask you a question to ask river Horse? And so I have to ask his question for you to you it's a heavy hitter, but he will be very excited to hear the answer. So Everett asks, what is your number one favorite fish? And why? Because there's so many great fishing stories in here. You chase in all sorts of different things all over the country, in the world, but if you had to pick just one, and I'd love to understand why and how you came to that. 00:50:48 Speaker 3: Okay, so it's easy. 00:50:50 Speaker 2: This is the easiest answer for me, did you not Mark give me a big, old large mouth bass? I topwater frog on the fly. I freaking love predator, big eat. It's just rowdiness. I'm I'm in these forest lakes and the canoe, just gliding through life, and I'm almost those moments, you know, they're just as soon as you fire that fly in there and bring that frog off the bank, off some point or logjam or lay down like that, just you have all the fields waiting for that thing to explode or what happens. Bass are so cool. They're just rowdy. They're like you know, driving old Lincoln continentals. They're just wild things and they're so ravenous. And when anytime that I'm bass fishing, which you can do all over, they're everywhere. I'm in some cool place, or I'm going to find some diner or cafe afterwards, or I love bass fishing. I think I got so lucky being born in Texas because so much of fly fishing riding is the beauty of trout and all those places. 00:51:57 Speaker 3: And yeah, like I love all that stuff. 00:52:00 Speaker 2: But I was telling stories of shiner bach and bass and peach pies, and I think that's how I kind of lucked into, you know, being a part of all this my voice and all what we do. But gosh, I love bass like I just I'm crazy for them. 00:52:18 Speaker 3: All right. 00:52:19 Speaker 1: So for somebody who you know has been around bass throughout their life, but they have, you know, just done some of the basics done. You know, they've chucked some worms, they've done all that, but they've never gone deep into it the way you go into it. Or maybe they've gone deep in like the traditional tournament gear fishing for bass that's so popular these days, but they haven't experienced it the way you're describing. Give me like a what's the river horse? One day prescription to experiencing bass the way that you have if somebody wanted to dive into it in this new way. 00:52:56 Speaker 3: So it's really like a two hour prescription. 00:53:00 Speaker 2: That morning you paddle into the darkness and it's a morning. Something about mornings. Evenings are incredible. 00:53:06 Speaker 3: But that first light kind of thing is fish creatures all of us. That's something happened. It's like a new life. We're here. 00:53:14 Speaker 2: So my deal would be always fish top water, even if you only catch one fish, like it's gonna be worth at that moment instead of dragging some streamers either that's us cool, but they're gonna I'm gonna put them on top water in some you know spooky uh or just surreal place when the light's coming and maybe birds are waking up. And but yeah, that big thing about bass is it's not rocket science. 00:53:45 Speaker 3: They want structure. 00:53:46 Speaker 2: They want a home just like us, whether you're gonna tend or tpe or whatever. They need to live somewhere and that needs to be foraged. So I'm gonna push them into those spots of a lake or a little river where it's just tight trees are there and hopefully they can cast worth of darn. 00:54:05 Speaker 1: Yeah, hey, you're you're speaking to me about one of my deficiency's river horse. I felt like I could cast until I started taking up tarpainfishing, and then that exposes you very quickly as a as a fraud. So I've got some work to do before next spring on that front list. 00:54:22 Speaker 2: And that's cool or so hum about it. That's all of us. But it doesn't take long. Like there's no voodoo in casting. It's timing, rhythm, be it. You got this. That's the cool thing about. 00:54:32 Speaker 3: Here is I sight cast all day to this fish like, I love that. 00:54:38 Speaker 2: It's not a nervous thing or stuff. And people that come in and visit, you know. I was like, here comes red fish hundred feet eleven o'clock. Take your time, breathe, you know, and they just it's just it's just an experience thing. Thame is it's got to be with the buck or something. 00:54:55 Speaker 1: Yes, it's yeah. I described like my site fishing for tarpain or stuff like that. It's like getting buck fever. It's like watching a deer coming in and unfortunately I seem to lose it more with a fish that I do with deer. I gotta work. I've got some work to do there. 00:55:11 Speaker 3: But that's so good for you. 00:55:13 Speaker 2: True, it's so good for you instead of reading about the rest of the world. 00:55:20 Speaker 1: So so yeah, so talk, give me another prescription here for somebody who is listening to this, or maybe who read your book and they want a little bit more of all of this stuff that you're talking about in their lives. They would like to have a life lived closer to water or to the woods or the mountains or whatever it might be. But they feel that they feel this friction, they feel these obstacles in their way, the job, and the obligations and what everybody expects of them, and the bills to pay, and all these different things. Tell me, give us one suggestion and for how we might live that life in our own unique ways that you seem to model so well. 00:56:05 Speaker 3: So for sure, play the long game. 00:56:07 Speaker 2: Like if you're maybe you're a tired mom or dad and you've got this gig, you're barely making it, and you've got this little one that this awesome kid, and you're devoted to them, and that takes so many hours as young child, a children or stuff. But play the long game. Start pushing your life towards that. But many adventures are everything somewhere near where anybody is. Maybe it's some river or creek or park or woods. You roll up your pant legs and go deep, even if you've only got that evening or that morning, get up before everybody else. Do it in the middle of the night. I love redfishing at night. I'm gone. I love being under those moons and the starlights. But people, all it takes is even a few minutes, twenty minutes, one hour, two hours, find that window. You have to earn that window too. Maybe you were tired to sleep. But that's if that's what you can do. You have to go do that, and you will never come back. 00:57:06 Speaker 3: Regretting that why I didn't sleep two more hours, You'll be recharged and electrified. 00:57:12 Speaker 2: So slowly steer your life towards those bigger places. But honor where you are now and do right by the kid or your partner, your job that somebody's given you a job and believes in you. But take those many adventures. But in the meantime, look at the big picture, look down the road, and steer your life towards where you want to be. I cannot imagine not spending life chasing dreams. You just it is so sure, gradually, this is it. 00:57:42 Speaker 3: This is our one go round. It's not addresser arsal. 00:57:45 Speaker 2: So whatever whatever anybody has going on today, you better get to it. 00:57:51 Speaker 3: You better stop making excuses and get to it, and you will be. 00:57:54 Speaker 2: You will be such a better person to have such a more beautiful life for it. 00:58:01 Speaker 1: How did you learn that? What drove that home for you? Because I feel like that's incredible wisdom, but probably hard earned in one way or another. 00:58:12 Speaker 2: Well, I swear I was wired like this. I just came out like this, like it's never stopped for me. I've always there wasn't something evolved. I've I was just like I want to be in the river all day, or I want to stick some bass or be running hard. That could never and I don't know anything else. 00:58:30 Speaker 1: That's a beautiful thing. I'm envious of you. I am constantly pulled towards the I'm intention. I have one side of me that constantly wants to just be outside and wants to be hunting or fishing or camping or backpacking or whatever. But then I had this other side of me that's like outside expectations and what I should be achieving and and did I tackle this thing in work or with life or whatever. And I have all of that kind of built and whispering obligation. And sometimes if I'm not careful, I find myself doing all this stuff that you know, Sometimes I find myself becoming that businessman who is telling the fishermen everything you should do to be able to fish more. And then I have to pull myself back to this and say, WHOA, all you need to do is step outside and and go enjoy the thing that you love so much. All the rest of its it's kind of noise. So that's like a constant thing for me that I'm that I wrestle with. So I'm a little envious of the fact that you're able to see so clearly what really does matter when for some of us you get kind of lost in the fog on occasion. 00:59:47 Speaker 2: But I'll say this balance is really important in life. Like I love being out alone in wilderness, but I have people that I really love and cherish, and if I'm not around those people, even as much as I like to be, disappearing not a whole human. Like the best version of us is loving someone, partnering someone, or trying to have a family or community. That is the highest version of us. And you're doing that. Doesn't mean you wouldn't like to fish all day instead of that, But you're doing the highest version of us. What you're balancing doesn't mean you don't yearn for that, and so when you get out those times, it will mean even more. So I don't want to leave anybody from this time with you today thinking that. 01:00:32 Speaker 3: That's the end all. 01:00:34 Speaker 2: Sure, just fishing in wilderness like that is not the end all. That is not the healthiest, most beautiful version of us. As humans. 01:00:42 Speaker 3: That is the. 01:00:43 Speaker 2: Beauty, the gravy, the bonus, you know, making sense of while we're here understanding all this, but the end all is being with somebody and other people that you care about. 01:00:55 Speaker 3: So I hope I haven't given the wrong impression. 01:00:57 Speaker 2: But yeah, I know I'm wild out there, but it doesn't mean that I'm not back here and just crazy to hold my girlfriend's hand or yeah, I'm there and I too, am paying bills and doing laundry, yeah, all the things. 01:01:15 Speaker 1: So taking that one step further than looking into the future looking five years, ten years, fifteen years down the line, you know, we've kind of skirted on the edges of just how there are so many changes coming down the line, whether it's with politics or technology or culture, there's a lot that's in many ways trying to pull us away from these things that we care about, or at least putting in. 01:01:41 Speaker 3: Friction. 01:01:44 Speaker 1: What is your advice to us as we try to navigate this future that is becoming, you know, like I talked about with my kids, right, it's becoming increasingly artificial, increasingly digital, increasingly divorced from the wild world. As you look into that unserve in future, you know, when my kids are adults and we're walking into that world. What's your advice to someone who wants to try to still build this kind of life close to the earth, close to water, being a part of the solutions, and keeping these things wild and free given everything that's coming down the got down the road. 01:02:20 Speaker 2: So it starts with just being grateful for even being here in that day. 01:02:25 Speaker 3: You know, you have to. 01:02:27 Speaker 2: I know it's tough, but even the fact that we're here today is so incredible. Plus we live in a great place, like we've got the golden ticket being in this where we live. And don't ever don't look back, just look forward. You have this part of your life, and don't ever let any of that stuff get you down for long. Like action feels so good, or movement the body wants to move feels so good. Never just don't look back, Just keep moving forward and chasing it. Roll up your sleeves and be physical. Plus the body even then doorphins of climbing, hiking up a hill or a mountain, or holy it feels so good, like this is natural highs in there. Just move yourself, like go get out there, no excuses, and that's just just steamrolls. It's like, you know, some snowball going down a hill, like it just builds on itself. So it's a little steps as I love Japanese culture and those guys know those small details and the beauty in that, and it builds something bigger. 01:03:33 Speaker 3: So anybody can do it. But I feel like we're preaching to the choir because you got your audiences, a bunch of badasses that are going for it. I'm sure they just. 01:03:43 Speaker 1: There's a lot of that, for sure. Yes, we're in a good company river Horse, that's for sure. So what's uh, what's your next? What's your next fishing strip or adventure? What's next on your on your schedule? 01:03:55 Speaker 2: Okay, so there's a lot of the tour still left. But you know, I'm bouncing to Boston and do a reading. But I'm going to run up the Gulf of Man and try to get some brookies and strippers and I'll be in Bolder and up in Montana in September and nice. This is a book tour, but I'm getting out there, so that's cool. But I want I have to let the cut out of the bag. I have already written all these notes and maps for about eight to ten more adventures that are crazier than these, And I don't know if I will explode, Like if this is the worst idea I've already I was on the phone talking to a helicopter. 01:04:36 Speaker 3: Can you drop me on this island? 01:04:39 Speaker 2: Could I somehow is there's somebody, you know, a local that could drive me thirty miles to this rainforest. 01:04:45 Speaker 3: And I'll pike up and pack graph like I've. 01:04:47 Speaker 2: Been plotting another book and not even that maybe it's a book or maybe not, Like it comes to a bit, you know, just my next series of being out there bewildered and stuff. I don't I think I got here before you, and I don't know how much time I have. I feel like I got a good couple of decades of just you know, standing a pedal to the metal. 01:05:11 Speaker 3: But who knows. But I'm about to do it again and double down. 01:05:17 Speaker 1: I love it. You know. It's funny that the anticipation in the planning for those kinds of things is almost as fun as doing the thing itself, too, right, just dreaming about it, studying it, planning it, thinking it through. Where am I going to go? How I'm going to do it? Like that's that's a joy in itself. 01:05:34 Speaker 2: Yeah, and even driving somewhere, I just get so excited. Like part of the joy of fishing trips is going there, traveling to these places and all of it, all of that, those moments are days or however long you're gone, all of it's amazing, just feels so good. 01:05:51 Speaker 3: Yeah. 01:05:52 Speaker 1: Well, if you need a needed extra set of legs on one of these wild adventures, you give me a show. 01:05:58 Speaker 2: Oh way you did it now, Because I will say this, I'm not a fast anything other than maybe on guitarist or swimming. I could swim that grade a bit and pedaled it. Don't expect me to be this both the lightning out there, but I would be able to carry everybody's stuff and we will get there. 01:06:19 Speaker 1: And that's it's funny mention that I actually there's something in one of these stories where you even specifically said something about, you know, trying to go fast through life, for trying to rush through things is no good. 01:06:34 Speaker 3: Right. 01:06:35 Speaker 1: I think that that was in here, Right, you said that something along those lines, And that is one of my greatest personal curses, is I naturally I try to rush. I'm always feel like I'm late, i always feel like I'm trying to get to the next thing, and so like a personal challenge that I'm that I'm trying to address is just learning to like slow down, soak in the moment, be present, not worry about the next thing. So so yeah, maybe maybe I need to learn from the school of Nagadata a little bit. 01:07:07 Speaker 3: So that's so. 01:07:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's one of my mantras is slow beats fast every time, and it feels so much better and you know, you get there more whole. 01:07:18 Speaker 3: So slow always beats fast. 01:07:19 Speaker 2: And I like things that are sensual, alluring, just that rob beauty. So yeah, and I talk about that in the surf part of the book. Okay, talk about surfing. And then you're somewhere and you're Hawaii or Africa, Fiji and you're getting whiled by huge waves. You know, slow beats fast every time, Do not break out, keep your body in check. 01:07:44 Speaker 3: And yeah. So that's that's my mantra for sure. But I'm not a sprinter. 01:07:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got to I've guests some stuff to learn on that, I guess. So are there any is there any final thing you want to leave folks with about the new book, book or anything that they should be aware of or simply where they can go pick up a copy anything you want to leave us. 01:08:05 Speaker 3: With for sure. 01:08:08 Speaker 2: So you know, for a long time, I thought, Okay, does the world need this book? 01:08:13 Speaker 3: Like what is this? These stories and this life that I lived. 01:08:17 Speaker 2: And every time I said, yeah, this is this is a unique thing I got to do. I have my boys, I have these cool adventures. 01:08:24 Speaker 3: But I'm like you and Ed Roberson, you know that he's amazing. 01:08:31 Speaker 2: Like we've read. We've read so much so we know what's out there. And I would want people to know about this book that it's not your usual flat fishing book. There's tons of fly fishing, but it's a life and how I chose to live it and things that happened to me. And I'm not some macho guy chasing the big fish. 01:08:51 Speaker 3: Like I love those moments. But it isn't that book. 01:08:54 Speaker 2: You know, I'm crying about a baby squirrel, Yes, butterflies or stuff. 01:08:58 Speaker 3: We have never seen that in a fly fishing book. 01:09:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody who's crying out of sunrise in the boundary waters, Like I freaking love this world and things happen in this I feel that the book has an enormous swirl of machine gun boat chases with drug cartels like that is a nuts I didn't know you know that was going to be in my life, or get to hang within fl quarterbacks or rock stars or I just feel like this book has a lot of everything. So I would I would dream that you know, no matter where you come from, there'll be things for you in there, let alone a parent that you love dearly in that circle of life. And yeah, I don't think it's the normal book. I think it's it's got it, it's got its thing going on. 01:09:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll second that it. Uh, I didn't. I didn't know what to expect going into it, and I was. I was really really pleased with the experience all the way through it. It's got legs it can stand on, and it's going to stand out for a very long time. So congratulations on a great work, really really tremendous product, not product, but piece of work, piece of art. I think that you've you've shared with us, and thanks with us. 01:10:10 Speaker 3: Chat. 01:10:10 Speaker 1: I enjoyed it. 01:10:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm so proud of you and proud to talk to you because when you know I did the backstory on you, I'm like, all right, let's check this guy out. And I've seen you do cool stuff and the books are amazing, and I realized, you know he'd talk about but you had made a life change from Michigan and it looks like you were marketing or corporate word or something, and YouTube. 01:10:37 Speaker 3: Nobody does this anymore. 01:10:38 Speaker 2: I did, like, I go for it, but you had asked me about it, and you did it, and you've got family and kids, and Steffanie says, you know what, I'm gonna chase these dreams, and I just I just got so excited and proud of you, because I'm seeing a lot of people that don't make that choice. And I bet you would never look back knowing what you know now, like look where you left. 01:10:59 Speaker 1: It so true, And you know it's funny that, you know, when I quit my tech corporate job back in twenty thirteen, I did that. It was so scary at that time, but also exhilarating to chase this dream and everything. When I was now making this next major life decision, which we just made recently, moving across the country, same kind of thing. And I looked back on that past experience and thought, you know, every time that I've chosen the scary option the scarier of the two choices, the one that I know is going to force me to change and grow and to experience new unknowns. That's usually that's a that's a clue that that's probably the right thing to do. At least in my life. That has tended to be the case. So it served me all that time. I hope it serves me while this time. 01:11:47 Speaker 3: Yeah, and let me ask you this question, and I promise you I know your answer. I just know. So I feel like the gut knows. 01:11:55 Speaker 2: Like you can ask your harder, your say should I do this or this body know this? 01:12:01 Speaker 3: Even if that sucks or you're like it's the hard. 01:12:04 Speaker 2: Way, you're if you listen to your heart, you know, hundred percent guarantee you that you're like, oh boy, I'm going to leave this safe career and stuff. I guarantee you that you knew in your body. 01:12:19 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is something deep down that that tells you. I have the the overly analytical, ruminative mind that tries to debate it afterwards and tries to think about every different side of the equation and wrestle with it. But in the end, you're right. In the end, and when I'm trying to like, I've got five on one side and five on the other, and you're wrestling. You know what's what's it say here? And and that has that served me pretty well? 01:12:48 Speaker 3: That's amazing, Plust. She must have a really cool wife to let you like you gouts. She must be a she is. 01:12:55 Speaker 1: She's the coolest river house. She's she's so great. She let me get the timing right here. I think that I told her I was going to quit my day job back then, just a little bit after I proposed to her. So she'd agreed to marry this guy who had this great job and now he's gonna quit to go become a writer and a podcaster and stuff in the hunting world. So she stuck with me through that. She's now agreed to move to Montana and we live way. We live like seven miles down a crappy dirt road out in the mountains that we're gonna have to have chains in the winter to get up to our house. And she's like that, we're good, we'll make it work. She's a rock star. Okay, let me give you she's gotta be missing. Let me give you a little tip. Here's a secret to that one. Somebody is that person in. 01:13:47 Speaker 2: Your life, an unexpected gift at an unexpected time. 01:13:52 Speaker 3: That is magic. 01:13:53 Speaker 2: Don't don't forget that, So try to figure that out for your kids or for her that unexpected gift. I don't expect time. They deserve it to follow you on those places. But moving to Montana is a no brainer. 01:14:08 Speaker 1: Come on, man, it's it's it's uh, it's hard to argue with. I'm pretty excited about it. 01:14:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thanks for having me, and I just I'm proud of you. I don't know, I'm good to hang with you, but I love you so much. And just this is awesome to be here. And I'm gonna leave here and probably red fishing tonight, but I just I will be so happy from this hang time. 01:14:31 Speaker 3: Man. 01:14:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel the same way. I appreciate it. Let's at some point figure out a way to cross paths. If you if you're out here in Montana for the book tour, maybe we can maybe we get on the water talk some more. 01:14:43 Speaker 3: Okay, see in a few weeks. 01:14:45 Speaker 1: Thank you,