00:00:12 Speaker 1: What's up, everybody. This is Dirk Durham here. I'm filling in as a guest host for Jason Phelps on this episode of Cutting the Destance podcast. We've got world champion Colorado native Elk Hunter, Elk Collar, Jermaine Hodge, a long time friend, just a good dude and funny man. I wanted to have him on here and talk about something that's on people's mind all the time, Colorado el Cutting. Yeah, thanks Dirk for having the r. Jermain, can you tell us a little bit, a little bit about yourself, Yeah, a little bit about myself. I'm reasonably from North Carolina and uh, I didn't move out to Colorado into two thousand five. Kind of going back. I came into Army in two thousand and four and then I got the chance to make the world Class Athlete program for the Army, and um, once I did and I made the team, I got stationed out here in Colorado because once again, you know, Olympic training centers here and most of all the athletes trained here for particular sports anyways, wrestling being one of them. And then when I came out in two thousand five, UM, some of my team members were big hunters and and they kind of introduced me to elk um and I missed that first draw. And then I started hunting elk in two thousand and six. But my journey wasn't uh, it wasn't as good as you think it is. I mean, you know, you go, you go through that first season and it's it's always a struggle. But I was fortunate enough to kill my first self in two thousand and six, and I've just been uh, I've been on a rolls ever since. But self taught how to call myself and watched a bunch of videos and here we are. I'm on the phone right now with their home the Bugler. So um, I've been I've been fortunate enough to be successful and uh and and now I'm teaching what I've learned promote you know, all the years of you know, getting elkin and having encounters year and year out. So that's just a little bit about myself. I'll go into a long story, but it would be a deep point. I won't I won't side derailist too much here, but I didn't want to touch on like, Okay, you mentioned um your job a little bit. What's your job and what took you there. Um you said wrestling. Um, how did how's wrestling incorporate to the army? Yeah, so, you know, back back way before my time, they they found the value of awarding soldiers the opportunity to make world and Olympic teams, and then they found the value of kind of utilizing those soldier athletes for more of a recruit in aspect. So now that we have soldier athletes in the army, we can utilize them on the army side to bring him more UH elite soldiers and also award them the opportunity to make an Olympic team and bring home in Olympic medals. So back in two thousand and four, I got stationed in Korea, and I thought it was gonna be like into my wrestling career, but it was like kind of like a blessing in disguise. And while I was over there, I wrestled in two different tournaments and the Athletic Athletic director was like, you know, who are you? And I kind of explained to him, you know, my background and what I used to do, and um, he said, well, if you put your papers together, I'll send it up to you. That's when they used to fax everything back in the day. Now it's all computer generated. But once he did that, I got to try out for them for the World Class Athlete Program. But that's a sister program called All Army and um, so I came to the All Army route I went. I came here to Fort Carson, and my whole goals was to make this team and wrestle for this program. So anyways, I made the team. Now wrestle for the World Class Athlete program. But my primary job for the military, because you still have to have like an M O. S or uh, you have to be MS qualified. UM. So my job job for the Army is a sixty eight whiskey conduct made it on the MC certified. UM. But I've never really like done that job outside of outside of here. With the reception of like one year of like some o J T at the at the e ER working in the e R doing that that kind of stuff. But no, you know, they brought me into the program to wrestle and bring home medals and international medals and world medals, and and I was fortunate enough to to compete on the world stage a few times in and um bring home medals and stay in the program, and uh now I'm coaching. I'm at the latter part of my season and you know, my career and I'm finishing up as a coach, and uh now I got to continue to live live their dreams through me and and help those guys their goals because their goals and my goals now to as well. Man, that's awesome, that's awesome. So um, what what a blessing? You know that you're taken to Colorado and discovered elk hunting. And I've said it before, like elk hunting will change your life, right, and I'm sure you've seen some big, big swings there, Like it's such a such a cool opportunity be able to hunt elk every fall, go to the mountains. You know, everybody has all different agenda why they hunt, but it seems like it's a really good place to decompress, reset um, and enjoy get in touch with our primal selves. So um, absolutely so Colorado. You know, that's that's a real elk hunting mecca for a lot of folks. You know, whether it's residents you know they've been there their whole lives, or or new people moving there, or for nonresidents nonresident hunters. That's a super um destination because Colorado has so many elk and they have so much over the counter opportunity. A lot of people go there. Um, but I think that kind of creates some challenges, right, Um, lots of lots of tags, lots of people. Um, how how do you get away and make yourself a little different from all the other other hunters out there? It seems like a competitive place. You know, I've been to Colorado. There's a lot of people hunting, um, a lot of and it's tough. You know, what what do you do? What? What? What do you go into the woods? Within your in your mind? Um that your plan, your game plan is to to make sure you stay in elk consistently and you're not getting picked on by others. You're you know, have another hunter's disrupt your hunter vice versa. Well, you know, let's flash back a little bit now. I'll talk about like, uh, the nonresident opportunities in Colorado is like it's like no other and uh you have to kind of contribute it to the OTC portion of it. So as a nonresident, you can come over, you can plan a hunt, you can kind of pick whatever unit you wanted to go to not even apply for anything, drive out to Colorado, go to Walmart and pick up your tag. And that's a huge opportunity for non residents. So if your dream is to come out and hunt out west and chase the elk, you probably have a really good chance of doing that in Colorado by all means. But um, I will say this, since I've been you know, hunting elk and and I've been hunting olk since two thousand and six to present, I've seen the numbers to climb dramatically, whether it was OTC or whether it was draw units. And for me, I kind of keep the same game plan when I go into whatever whatever unit I plan on hunting that year, I kind of keep the same game plan and the mindset of you going to hunt the way you hunt and not the way other people are hunting. So for me, I really I don't have a problem getting away from people. Now, you'll find a few that that can go in and hike in and get into those deep dark pockets or those areas where they may have each scouted and they may they may be willing to walk in there. Um, but that's very few that might be able to do that. Um, what I do find myself doing is gravitating away from those easy to park and walk in spots. And I think that is my my quick answer to to how do I get away from them? So I'm not going to parket trail EDGs and then walk in. I want to find I'm coming right off the road. Maybe I you know, drove down this dirt road and at the very end of that dirt road is a trailhead. Instead of coming in at that trailhead, I might find myself driving down that road and then I have to bomb up this hill to get into a different area than then where they may be. UM. So I think the aspect of going places where no one really wants to go or not many want ago, and then the fact that hey, it looks like it might be elk over this way parking there, and then trying in those different areas. Uh. I find myself that I don't run into a lot of hunters into places that I've been, but I've also hunted into some OTC units where it's tough. You have thousands of hunters into these particular areas. Uh. What I try to do is, uh stay away from those trailheads and find those area is where if they were at that trailhead, where would they push these elks too? So, um, good example with you know, a good trailhead goes into a good basin. If you know you've got four or five or six hunters that are in that basin, maybe looking over two more basins to the left or right and trying those areas instead of hunting that one basin that those six or seven hunters are in. Yeah, I love that. I love that. You know, taking the the proverbial road less traveled, you know, get off, get off trail bush whack out through the brush trees, you know, go hike through the more difficult places. If it's hard for a person to get there, that will probably weed out a lot of your a lot of your other fellow hunters. Um there, maybe you know they're not good enough shape, or maybe they're not confident on their navigation abilities to go to those kind of places. So that's absolutely that's some good insight there. Um. Now with that mind, all these ol you know, some of them can probably be pushed into those spots, those little pockets, those off the you know, out of out of mind, out of out of sight, out of mind, type pockets. Um, but they've been messed with a little bit a lot of times. How how are you calling? How are you gonna? Is your calling effective? Um? To those those up have been pressured a little bit, Um, are you doing something a little different than maybe you know what's your secret here your secrets house? Yeah, so you know I can Well, let's let's start with like an O T C unit for Colorado. Um, I go through phases throughout the season of September, and uh, I'm fortunate enough to be able to take all of September off, so I can really like, like nick pick or what these are really going to respond to? So for me, you know, in an O T C unit, let's say at the very beginning, uh, you know, a nonresident, probably not all of them are gonna come out here for thirty days. They're probably gonna come out here for about ten days, maybe ten to twelve days, I don't know. But most most of all the ones that I've known and I've run into, they do about a teen day hunt and not a lot of shoes to pick. The very beginning of season. They want to come in its prime rut activity, so they usually picking that mean to end September, and so at the very beginning of September, I like to try to to stick with my guns no matter what unit I'm in, UM. But I do find it a little different when it comes to OTC units. So when I'm at the very beginning of September used to be like the end of August in the September, but now they have it in September, the very beginning of sept seasons. At in September, what I like to try to do is I'm move into those different areas that that I think or hold milk, and I use a lot more bugles than I do cow sounds. UM. Not that I'm not using cow sounds. I'm just more heavy on the bugle side of it. And if it has more to do with the phase of the r like I'm I'm introducing a bull that's at this playground and they've never heard him before, if that makes kind of sense. And then then when we get towards like that September tenth to mid September, I started, I try to mix in a combination of both of the bugles in cow sounds. So I'm I'm not so much heavy on the bugle side I'm more in the middle of using both sides of the aspect, and then towards the latter part of the season, towards the end of September, I'm heavy, heavy on cow sounds, and that's been effective for me anywhere I've been, whether it's OTC units or UM over the I mean drawing units. Now, I will say this is when you you get those O T C units and you get a lot of hunters out there, thousands and seven hundred in one particular unit, they've heard everything from dub flute to some of the best colors in the woods, and they could distinguish, believe it or not, they can distinguish a good sounding elk versus a person. And after being blown at by maybe one of those power bugle tubes or something, they've been blown that hundreds of times with this tube, and they've been fooled and they've been called in. They wise up really quick, especially throughout the month of September. So what I do find that it's more effect of that in an O T C unit. For myself, you know, I'm speaking just for myself when I when I find that seven hundred to a thousand hundreds in the unit, And I know everybody's in their calling. What I find best moving as close as possible to that that bugling bull or that herd, and I use cow sounds, quality, good cow sounds. Now from trying to kill a rag horn bull or a satellite bull, that right there is a factor. And most of the time those bulls are coming quiet. You'll hear that herd bull, he'll be chirping and going absolutely nuts. And a lot of times when you're using those cow sounds, that bull might have some satellites with them, and them satellites to come in, they're come in quiet. I might only be four dred yards from that herd, but when I use that cow sound, it'll pull a satellite bull in. And believe it or not, there's a lot of big satellites out theater. And and for a non resident that's coming from, uh, you know, a state like Colorado, that might be a really effective way to kill a bull. But um, going back to what I said, I really don't try to change anything. Whether you're over the counter unit or or a draw unit, I use it. I use my calls throughout the season of September based off right activities, so heavy on the bogle sales. At the very beginning of the season, mid mid month, I go make some both, and then towards the end of season, I use a lot of cow stems. Man, I couldn't agree more with what you said. Those are some really really good, insightful tactics, and I agree like that early season and I feel like this is something our our listeners really need to kind of key into. UM. I do a lot of seminars. You do a lot of seminars every year, and a lot of folks, you know, they're like, hey, that early season stuff, you know, should I just be blown a calcool? I feel like there's like some information or out there, or maybe they just this conception that um that the idea of like only because bulls aren't hot and and running super hard, they're not gonna want to answer a bugle or come to a bugle in that early part of step let's say the first week of September. But at that point, you know they're not you know, they can be breeding, but a lot of times they're still work they're just on the edge of that rut and they're still working out a little bit of that pecking order, and like, like what you said, They're like, hey, who's that new guy in town? You know, I've had bulls come in out of curiosity. They wouldn't they wouldn't answer a cal call early. But man, you bugle at them, they would come in and they wouldn't get super mad, they wouldn't get wound up, you know, like they do later in the month. But they would bugle steady and they would come in and it's like, hey, who is this guy? Who's this new guy over here? Hey? Jack, what who are you? And Uh, I've I've had that work time and time again, and so I feel like, you know, the idea of just going out and be like, oh yeah, early season, I should you know that September one to the the fifth or whatever, I should only blow cal calls. I just don't. For me, it's just never really worked that good. Um. I actually I get more success with bugling. So um, that's a that's a great takeaway German. Yeah, I I could argue this, you know, year and a year out you'll hear, you know, new hunters. I'd say, primarily new hunters, and they'd be like, you're bugling too much. No, there's no such thing. If there's a bull in there that wants to play, he will answer. And I find it very very intriguing that when you introducible early in the season to an area that that bull or those bulls have been hanging out, they are curious to see who the heck the new guy is. Yeah, and they and they will come in Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Hey, let me let me ask you this. So there's a lot of new hunters out there, new callers, and what's your take? Do you have to sound how authentic? Do you have to sound like an ELK? I mean, can you just get a any kind of an ELK call and go out and blow it with you know, just a little bit of you know, talent or should they sound you know, practice what they're calls and try to sound as authentic and sound as much like an ELK as possible. What do you think that makes a difference. It's absolutely huge. Days. Let's go back to like kind of where I was talking about the OTC units, the heavily hunted units. Now you can take a brand new caller that just learned how to call, and put him in an O T C unit that's heavily hunted, and yes, he somewhat sounds like an ELK and uh, and he probably gets one encounter uh throughout his season in the O t C unit. But then you take someone that is a seasoned ELK caller and he's very good and he sounds very realistic, and you put him in that O t C unit, he's gonna he or she's gonna have way more encounters than the person that just talked themselves how to call. Versus the guy that uh you know, goes out there, stops at Walmart or wherever it picks up a call, sounds somewhat like an ELK and goes out and he only gets one encounter, versus the guy that guya gao that goes out and they practice hearing you out and they sound realistic. You'll find yourself, You'll find yourself separating your yourself from from just the random hunters versus the hunters that kind of get it done year in the year out, or they find themselves in ELK all the time. No, you don't have to sound like, you know, spitting image of the giant bull in the playground, but it helps out dramatically if you do sound more realistic than your counterparts that are still hunting the same area. Um, but once again, you know, you can stop at Walmart and pick up a call, or stop at your local archery shop on the way in and practice and probably get a you know, a couple of encounters, but you separate yourself dramatically from the field where you sound more realistic. But you can obviously, I mean, I've done it at a at a young as when I started hunting elk in two thousand and six. It's not the same Germaine eyes that hunts now, right. I didn't sound like this in two thousand and six, and I still called in elk because I sounded someone like an elk. But it takes also another line of I'm going in areas where no one else is messed with two, and that kind of adds into the flavor of I don't have to sound realistic because the elka partying over here. And maybe I called off a satellite bull and and I won that way. So I think the more realistic that you do sound, you separate yourself from the field. Yeah, I agree. Um, how many times have you been out there, have been calling a bull and you got you and the bull are exchanging bugles and then all of a sudden you hear a guy up on the ridge that sounds terrible. It sounds like he's abusing a puppy or something. Just he's making these sounds are supposed to be like an elk, but maybe either not even an elk like sound, or maybe it's a semi okay bugle. I don't know how many times I've had that happen to where the elk just stops. You know, you know this is over the counter. You know, heavily hundred bull will shut up. He just topped, he just quit calling, So I'll just quit calling too, and then like maybe I'll give it thirty forty minutes after I hear the last bugle, maybe let that guy have a chance to leave, and then I'll call again. Bam, It's like game on again. So those elk, you know, I don't know. Um. I think some of our our listeners probably know. You know, elk can get pretty in tune to if you're an elk or or a hunter or not. UM. But I will say this, I think you know there's one there's one difference. You know, I said earlier. You're a world champion caller. You know you don't have to sound like a world champion caller, but you do have to sound like an elk, right, And there's a lot of weird sounding elk out there, but a lot of these calls where people aren't putting in time to learn how to use a call. You know, they sound like a guy or gal bugle. It sounds like a hunter, right, Whereas put some more time in and get some little bit of a nuance and get more of a realistic sound. It may not be perfect, it doesn't sound like somebody on the world stage, but what it does sound like is a real elk. So yeah, that's that's a great, great, great point there. All right. I think we'll switch gears here now and I want to kind of talk a little bit about ethics, right. Ethics is always a kind of a hot spot, um when we're all hunting, especially over the counter type tags. You know, Um, what are your thoughts about navigating the landscape when you're out hunting and hunters being respectful with each other? Um? For instance, you know, if you what if you read much on social media, you know, people will kind of talk about maybe an encounter they how to fellow hunter that was negative. You know, they were they were they were calling in a bowl and um, then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, some other hunter kind of slips in between them. You know, is that in your mind? Is that okay? Is that something that like we should kind of be like, well, that's that's that's fine, it's not you know, we all have the same opportunity out there or ethically, is that just like that's kind of that's kind of a no. No, guys, you know, we don't want to we don't want to do that. What what's your take on that? Well, you know, I think it's a very thin line. I don't do this particularly, um, but there's a very thin line. We also have to understand that, you know, it's public playing. This person's bought the tag. I bought the tag. Where we're you know, hunting impro uh close proximity of the same area. Maybe I got there before he did, or or he got there before I did. Um. I try to take it as as this is. If we pull up to a trailhead and I see one other vehicle there, it's a chance that that might be a hunter, not a hiker, not a Backpacker's a chance that that might be a hunter. And as I'm working my way through the you know, the terrain that I want to work or the area that I want to work, and I pick up I pick up the notion that hey, there's a there's a hunter up there on that ridge not too far from us. I usually tend to turn around and kind of go to opposite direction then where that particular hunter is. Um if he's in the direction where I'm heading, I'll try to take a uh longer path around that particular person to get where I'm going. But I also know that some of units are very small and you're gonna run into people. But I think the right answer for anybody is just showing a little bit of respect out there, because if if I end up working a bull and you hear me, when you hear that bull, it's probably a chance that you don't know it's me up there, because as we said before, I practice a sound like an elk, and there there might be a chance that he's working in not knowing at all that I'm up there, right, and then we would kind of run into each other. But most of the nine of the people that I've run into are super nice and super respectful. Man, I didn't know you was in there. Sorry, I messed up your your stuff, No big deal. You know it's it's a it's a public land and we're hunting the same areas. And and you know now that I know what he's driving, because I'm gonna asking, hey, what are you driving, so I could stay away from that area that he's working. But I think it. I think that as hunters, we owe each other the respect to kind of give each other our space because there's lots of I mean for Colorado for example, there's lots of land out here that's um that's uh, you know, over the counter land, whether it's public land, uh, whether it's b A L M and stuff that you can hunt. And I think we owe it to each other to kind of uh guard our way, to avoid each other, and believe it or not, when you do that, you find yourself called the more el kinnois. So that hunter might be bumping the elk into another ridge. You go check that other ridge, no hunters back there, and you called it the elk. So I think, as as hunt as, we owe it to each other to kind of kind of just show that respect. Yeah, I agree. I think I think sometimes people get caught up being so competitive. You know, every everybody wants to get that elk, you know, a elk or whatever they've they've they've put invested a lot of time, they've invested energy, they've invested money to get there. And I think sometimes, you know, emotions will let um. Sometimes some folks will let their emotions run wild and be like they're gonna do whatever it takes to get that bull, you know, by illegal means. But unfortunately, sometimes that could it could be a little tricky situation with another hunter. And and I always like to say, you know, let's let's follow the golden rule, you know, doing to others as they would do unto you. Right, Um, if I don't want, you know, I don't feel like I want some other hunter climbing up on me whenever I'm trying to get a bull, I'm I'm definitely not gonna, you know, intrude into somebody other's someone else's hunting. And if I were to do that, I would definitely feel bad about it. And if I saw him, I'd say, man, I'm really sorry. So but I think I agree. I think majority of the people out there are trying to do it right. They're they're trying to to um to go out and have a good time and connect and kind of get away far away from many mankind as they can. You know, I think that's what they're there for. So that's good. Um. Yeah, I quick story last year season, I was hunting particular area and I've known this area for a while and I've known that not many people go in this area. Well, as I'm hunting this area, I got a few bulls to respond, and I know legitimately that these are bulls, and I'm working on and as I'm working them, you know, they kind of got quiet on me a little bit. And I didn't understand why they got quiet because everything was perfect in for my scenario. But about twenty minutes later, as I'm trying to get these bulls to respond, I look up and I see these two hunters snooping in on me, and so I waved that. I waved at him, and the guy comes that. We kind of run into each other and I said, he said, man, you sound amazing. We we really thought that you were the bull. And I said, well, um, was a couple of bulls up here, and lo and behold, I figured out the whole picture of what was going on. The wind was great for us. The wind was horrible for them. And then when they started working into both of me and the other bulls, the wind was horrible. And that I think that that those elp smelled them. And that's the only thing I could pointed to because of where they came from and where these bulls were so um. But now that I knew that they were hunting back there in that area, I pulled out of that area. I didn't go back in that area for five or six days. I just wanted to let them have what they were gonna have in that area. And uh, I didn't come back in there until five or six days later. But come to find out, they were locals and they pretty much had that area lockdown with trail cameras and some other areas. And I thought they you know, when when we got back in there towards the end of season, I thought they were gone. And lo and behold they they they were still in there work in those same group elk Or. What I did is I ran into him again. I said, Okay, I'm not coming back here in this particular area again. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna check the next ridge over because if they've been hunting in that area for that long. They pushed these elk to another ridge and lo and behold they did, and we found it very successful. When we went over the next ridge, we were calling in to huns of bulls and those were the same bulls that they had on those trail cameras. Man. That's all, you know, just just showing a little bit of respect. I know, if they wanted to hunt that area, then I'll let him have it, because I'll go check some other areas. Yep. That's that's the thing. You know. There's just so much, so much ground out there. You know, I think everybody, you know, there's there's room for everybody, especially if everybody just kind of goes the wrong way and and have and it just it turns out to be a better hunt man anyway. So now that's awesome. Yeah, let's talk about hunting partners a little bit. So hunting partners, a person kind of gets pretty good friends, pretty tight with hunting partner, and sometimes it can be a disaster and sometimes it can be you become brothers, right, and um, what do you think sets that apart? What? What what's been your experience to have you have a successful relationship with the hunting partner. Well, you know, I've hunted with I've been fortunate enough to hunt with lots of people throughout my elk hunting adventures, and UM, I found that, you know, I'm very selective on a personal side, I'm very selective of you know who. I try to go out to the woods, woods, and and um, and I've got to understand that my hunting style is not gonna jail with everybody, and and and they're hunting style, so um, you know I had to I had the fortunate opportunity to hunt with a good prin last year, and his hunting style was way more relaxed in mind. And I'm a go getter. I'm I'm very aggressive and and and I tried to pick the hunting partners that are gonna last a long time with me, that their style is very similar to my style. And we have some of the same goals that we want to achieve, not just coming out here to harvest and elk, but um maybe possibly checking out new areas or whatever the kids may be. But it's a lifestyle. And if my hunting partner can live that lifestyle for three, six or five like I do, we live and we wake up and we think about wake up thinking about the next adventure, and we wake up thinking about, man, I gotta get on the phone my buddy and see if he's thinking the same thing. And I was just thinking that same thing. So I think, you know, I think hunting partners are built through friendship, and when you have a good friend that hunts um, I think you will find that you guys have the same beliefs and in the same goals at the very end. So for me, I'm very selective when it comes to hunting partners. I give everybody a try, just like I'll try any kind of food, but doesn't mean I'm gonna eat that food again. I might be like, hey, that that that sabi was nasty. I'm not doing that anymore. So so I think for me it I love actually hunting with a partner because I like sharing sharing the same passion with somebody, and it it puts a really, really big smile on my face when I can call lean a for my partner and see his eyes light up like he's a kid. That's awesome to me. I'm like, dude, that was a great encounter. That was awesome. But I also hold Uh, I hold my my hunting partners that have been with me for a while, I hold him at a very high standard, and I'll let him know the heartbeat. Man you slipped? Oh man? So um, I get this question a lot of talking to people and they say, um, what if your hunting partners not working out? How do you break up? How do you let's say, you know and just say well, sometimes, you know, if it's just not driving, just you don't have to. You have to cut the court at some point. But you know, it's family. You know, it's my my brother in law, or it's my my uncle or whatever. You know. He wants to set in camp and drink beer all the time, and I want to go hike up and down the mountains and chase bugles. And you know what happens when you have you've either drifted away or you've put all some effort into, you know, getting this hunting partner, and in the end it turns out, you know, guys aren't driving real good. How would you approach like giving them the ultimatum like, hey, let's we're gonna either hunt like this or maybe we can't hunt anymore. How would you how would you do that? Well, I've run into that in my past. Um, but you can call me ruthless. I guess you can call me ruthless. I guess a lot of people do call My wife definitely calls the ruthless. You're ruthless mean and I'm like, nah, this goes the same goals as mine, and uh so I will say this. It's a very thing line. You have a family member and I've talked to somebody in the past about this. You have a family member that who wants to go hunting with you. They they they'll go hunting with you every year. And they refused to learn how to call the milk. They refused to work count, they refused you this. Well, it's okay that we go to camp and we hang out, but you know, at the very end of this, I'm gonna go this way. You can go whatever way you want to. Doesn't mean I can't share a camp with you. It just means I might be hiking further than you can go and get in there a little bit different. Um, But know that there's if that's a weight that's holding you down year in and year out, and that might be the turning point of you being successful and not being successful, you have to cut those ties. You have to, and I'm a firm believer of of letting that person know, Hey, listen, this year, I'm gonna do things a little differently and then explain yourself and whether they like it or not. This man, we've been doing this for ten years. You refused to work out, you refused to learn how to call. We go out here ten years straight and we haven't killed a nail kit. Uh, there's an issue here, and I'm doing every thing in my power to be successful. So there's a real thing line there. I mean, I guess as a as a family member, you don't want to hurt their feelings. But at the same time, Um, at the very end of this, you do what's best for you in your tag. Right If if you feel like this partner is not cutting the weight and you have the tag, then you do what's best for you and your tag, and you have to put yourself above the others. It's almost a selfish thing. You almost have to be a little a little selfish when it comes to being successful out in the elk woods. Now it comes back down to where I was talking about choosing your partners and choosing them right. If you've done that at the very beginning, you wouldn't find yourself in this this this particular moment. And if you've been hunting together for a long time, then you just need to have that little talk with with your hunting partner. Hey, I need you to start getting in shape, buddy, not just for elk season, but maybe for your health, for for longevity. And then you know, those little talks resonate and and if you if you don't, if you don't open your mouth and open clothed mouth doesn't get fed, and you'll get the same results you in a year out. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I feel like, um, one successful way. Let's say you're you're you're thinking about bringing on a new hunting partner. I think communications super important in the beginning. These are my goals, This is what I want out of hunting, This is the experience. I want to see how to l hunting right, I want to do I want to do it this way. And what are your goals? You know, compare goals, compare notes, if if notes and goals and can compare if they're comparable. Um, yeah, let's let's see how this goes. And then putting in the offseason work like you said, scouting home, you know, ea, scouting working out. You know, if they're working just as hard as you in the off season to figure out elk hunting and they're trying to, um be successful, that's another good that's another good quality for a good partner, right, um, And then I love what you said about you know, Hey, you know, I'll share a camp with you. But you know, we obviously have two different kind of mindsets on on how we want to hunt together. So tell you what, I'm gonna go do what I like to do. You go do what you like to do. And hey, you know what, if you get one, I'll come help you pack it out. And if I get one, well, if you want come help me pack it out or whatever. But I feel like there's there's, uh, there's a good option there for you know, not completely ending a friendship. But you know, um, because you know, there's I think there's been a lot of friendships that have been that have actually ended over over over hunting camps and and uh and some you know, maybe that's better. You know, you're you're better off that way anyway. But but yeah, it's it's tough to find a good hunting partner that that you jive on all levels. Um, and I think too, it's important to find that person that that they're gonna work so just as hard in the field for you to get your tag tag filled as they want to fill their own, if not more like like I want if I go hunt with Germaine, I want Germaine to kill an elk more than I want to kill an elk. I almost feel like that's like the ultimate gift you can give someone is to call in a bull for him and help him succeed get a bull. I feel like that's like the ultimate gift to give, right, And they say giving is better than receiving. Right. But on the flip side, if I do that for you, then you're gonna see that and you're gonna want to reciprocate. You're gonna be like, man, he worked hard for me to get that. I really want to pay back that favor. And it's just it's just good business, right. I mean, I'll give you a quick story. Um, last year, before season even started, you know, I have a good, a good hunting partner of mine that we've been hunting for years together. And UM, I told him what my goals were communication part of it, and I told him, I said, I need to know that are you willing to do this, because if you're not, then I'm gonna bring in somebody else that's willing to do this. And it wasn't that I was cutting ties. I was just making sure that we were gonna be chilling the whole season because I'm not gonna have you mad at me because I'm trying to do this and you're not really trying to do that. Well, a long story short, he told me this. He said, I'm not carrying my boat until we get this goal done. And I said, okay, well I'm gonna hold you to that, you know, and he didn't once carry his I told him, I said, as soon as I'm done, I promise you I will call you in it. Because he didn't. He didn't wanted to. He wanted to shoot anything, right, He'll shoot anything as long as it was lingal He'll shoot anything. And I said, I promise you I'll returned that. And sure enough, because I say this, what this was the first year that anyone has called in an ELK for me, anyone, And that was a super a super happy moment. To see it at its at its fart as anyways, and then after we were done, we went back in and I called in a giant for him in return. So it works out just like that. But you have to communicate at the very beginning and let them know, Hey, these are the goals. Um, are you willing to do this? And and sure enough, once you find that partner, don't ever let go. Always keep that that bond, keep that bond with them. Yeah, I love it, I love it. Those are some great insights, Germaine. So what's up for? What does your schedule look like? Are you are you? Are you ell counting? Are you gonna help count this year? Oh? That's what That's not even a question, is it? Okay? So are you are you gonna um chase Elk in your homestead of Colorado? Youre gonna venture out at all? Yeah? So, um, you know, I think I got a couple of different things going on. Um first and foremost, I burned up my points last year. Uh in this particular unit that UM, I love. I love this unit a lot, and I know, you know, there's always an opportunity to kill some some very I say, big bulls for Colorado, big bulls three thirty, but there's a lot of big bulls that are well over three sixty and you know even better. So in this particular unit, I burned up my points. So this year, I'm not going to draw that unit. But there's some opportunities on the second draw in a re issue list and then put for the listeners that don't know that re issue lists is huge. There's a lot of opportunities where let's say they're down, you know, got a tag and he can't make it to Colorado, and he got a primo tag and he spent maybe you know, five points or six points on this tag. Well, they give the opportunity back to the public, right so if they go let's let's say that that in that list, if the tag is worth over five points, they go to the next in line. If they refused that tag, they go down like four or five people. If they refuse that tag, it gets put on the reissue list. And this year I've seen well over probably ten units that were on that reissue list that were well over eight to ten point tags. So there's a lot of opportunity on that re issue list. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna put in for my point as usual, and then I'm don't play that that second draw and that reissue list, and I'm gonna play that re issue list from the very beginning of August to the end of August. So that gives me four weeks on that reissue list, and if I can land a tag within that reissue list, then I'll hunt some of those premier units. If I can't get at tagged by the end of August or the beginning of September, then I'm gonna just go grab it over over the Counter tag and go slive one and over the County unit, which is probably not gonna be a issue anyways. Like I said, it's a lot of a lot of elk in Colorado. So um, that's gonna be my Colorado plan for sure. Um, rebuild rebuild points, play the second and reissue list, and then once I rebuild build points, then I'll have enough to draw maybe another premier unit like I did uh last year. If if by some chance I have to hunt over the Counter unit, I'll probably be somewhere to northwest Colorado. We're not sure exactly what unit, quite I have a lot of many in sight that I've heard it before or or I've had friends hunting before, so I'm probably gonna be up there in that northwest territory of Colorado. UM that that's my Colorado plan. Of course, I always put in for all the different kind of species, but we'll just concentrate on the elk. I am putting in for a go tag this year for sure, Mountain Goat, because the office is super good. I looked at this and I was like, Wow, there's a lot of people getting these tags with like three points or four points, so once you get past that three point, it's all random anyways. UM. But I am going to venture out of state this year if I can draw the tag, which we all know that it's hard to draw tags out of state UM as a non resident. So I'm going to put my name in the hat for a New Mexico tag. UM. I'm gonna try to link up with a outfit or use their code and possibly get in UH and extra ten percent is to draw that tag. But it's not gonna be my a plan by no means. UM. And then I'll continue to put in points for Montana. I'll continue to put points for um Wyoming because I'm not quite ready. I'm waiting because I just dropped my retirement paperwork, and I think it would be more feasible once I retire to tackle you know, two or three states. Um, I'll have the time to do that, versus you know, I have to stay close because if work does call, then I have to go back and check in or take care of some some stuff. It usually it's rare that it happens, but if if they did call, I would have to come back down the mountain and and take care of something if if it needs to be done. So I think once my you know, next year, when next year hits and I'm fully retired, I'll be able to tackle more than once one state. So I'm gonna just put my name in a hat for New Mexico pastrat in Colorado is my plan. And uh, if New Masico hits and I get it tagged down there, I'll play both fields right on. That sounds like a pretty good plan, pretty good plan um for me. You know, I'm still trying to figure it out. You know, you know, I'm an Idaho resident, so definitely get an Idaho tag Um looking at some new country this year? Um, so who knows I'm gonna I'm gonna cast a wide net and see what I pick up. We'll see where I'm going. I don't I don't even know yet, but I have an idea of where I'm gonna start. But but once summer hits and um, you know, I got it, had ankle surgery, So my summer I'm not gonna be able to do much at all till probably June July, for for hiking wise, So man, I got a lot of work to do in June, July and August. So but a lot of the snows and mountain snows are are not always gone in any earlier than that in Idaho anyway, So um, you can't really get into a lot of places until at the end of June. So m but definitely gonna got my my intentions on applying out of state, you know, whether building points or applying for a tag. But we'll see my option. I ain't keeping my options open still. I mean, it's still a little bit early to try to make it formulate a plan perfectly. But but we'll see how everything kind of turns out. You know, once once, once the tags start hitting the hitting the ground. So yeah, I know, I uh I knew when Idaho, uh, when they started and they opened up the tag allocation and and uh draw, and I knew it was going to be a nightmare. And then I heard later that it was just absolutely bonkers. Um, so I'm not quite ready for Idaho for that only reason. Um, I would love to get out and hunt Idaho, but we got to get a better system before I can get on. Because if I get on there and and I'm number forty thousand in line and in your chance of getting a tag or very sleem anyway, So for non resident anyway, So for for that reason only, I'm not gonna bite that apple. You know, I'll get on my soapbox a little bit on that, you know. Um God, there's gotta be a better way, because geez Louise whenever during that time. So for our listeners who don't know how the Idaho non resident um acquiring a tag for over the counter type units, It's almost like a lottery drawing, but not really right. So you log into the website before you know, fifteen minutes before ten o'clock, let's say the tag is go and sail at ten, you lug in, You get in a virtual waiting line, and it don't matter if you're the first guy there or somebody that you get this random number, so you never know if you're gonna get your tag or not. So let's say, uh, German and I both are non residents, and we want to go to Hunt, Idaho together, so we both get online at our at our homes and okay, we're get in the virtual wedding line. I'm number fifty six and your your number fifty six thousand. Chances of you and meeting l Hunt together are slim and not. I it's a flawed system. It's there's got to be a better way to do it. And I don't know, I feel like they thought it would be more user friendly, maybe a little uh more fair. I don't know what they the Idaho fishing game or thinking on it, but I'm hoping and I don't know anything, but I'm hoping they're like looking to revamp that. And you know, why can't they do it drawing? I mean, like every other state, you know, it sucks to have to draw, but it's it's proven now in the last I don't know, a couple three years now, there's a big demand for tags and it's not their system they're doing now is not get any better. So maybe they should just go to a drawing, random drawing for those nonresident tags. That way, you and I can put in a together as a party, and if one of us draw tag, we both get it and we both get to go. Because the way it is now, it's just it's very hard for friends or family members to hunt together as a non resident, right, So I totally agree with you. Like so we we kind of flashed back a little bit. I remember it was during the covid era and everybody thought that you know, for me, I had the mind frame that everybody and their mom was gonna be out here. And it came out and it was true. It was six hundred and sixty thousand applicants, six sixty for Colorado. That's incredible, so so so now imagine now imagine that if we had the Idaho system where everybody logged in at the same time and you got a random number. Now imagine six hundred and sixty thou people trying to log in under one system. It's gonna crash. It's gonna crash. It's gonna crash big time. So I think Idaho definitely for that aspect of it. Their system is way overloaded and it's outdated compared to some of the other states. Now I do agree with you. You know, you allocate so many tags. Just put it in as a draw. You don't have to be point based, but just put it in as a draw and it could be randomized and then and then you can come up with a system later on like they have now where they go in first come, first serve. These are the tags that's left over, first come, first serve kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, because they'll they'll be tags and get turned back, you know, so like within the first period, within the first week of those tags going on sale, I don't I'm not sure if there was any ELK tags left. I know they sold really wick right, But I feel like you and this this kind of creates a panic buy in my opinion too. So people get on there and they're like, well, gee wiz, I've waited six hours in this line and the tag I wanted I can't get, so, um, well, what is what's left? Oh, I'm gonna get one of those and they'll pick a unit that's just like, well, there's a tag that I'm gonna buy. This tag so then they buy a tag that on a unit they don't know anything about. You see it on social media a lot folks are like, Hey, this is only tag I could get. I don't know anything about it. Does anybody know anything about this unit? But uh so, if they can't find out enough positives about that tag, possible, I could see them possibly turning that tag back in right, and then it goes back and then you know, people are just delayed further and further out trying to acquire that tag. But I feel like, you know, you have your lot of amounts for each unit, um let people apply for him and you can kind of bank on it and if you drive it great, If you don't, well great, you know, and then at a certain point there'll be tags to go back. Anyway, But I feel like the experience and the opportunity for people to get the tag they want would be a little better. So anyway, I don't know. I uh, I definitely like like the way you know New Mexico does their system. Yeah, it's so randomized, it's perfect. You know, I don't need no points. I have a good, good enough chance as anybody else to get this particular tag. So it's random and then then Colorado for example, you know you could as a non resident, you could have Twinkies something points trying to get a premier unit and not get it. It's crazy. So I definitely see some changes coming to Colorado. I don't I don't know that it's gonna happen anytime soon, but it's definitely some changes come to Colorado, that's for sure, and it's gonna be hard for people to adjust to that because, um, I just don't see in near future, and I don't know when the near future is it. I don't see them continuing with the over the counter tags anymore. I just see it coming, and uh, being that I'm here and you hear a lot, I could definitely see some changes coming. So that's gonna put up. That's gonna put a big gamper on a lot of people that's trying to come to Colorado because now you're gonna have to particularly pick a unit, and if you don't know anything about that unit, there's gonna be a lot of tags turned back in. Um. I see that same thing on social media, like I true this unit, it's the only tag I can get, and everybody's like turn the tag back in is a waste of time. It's pretty funny. Yeah, well man, thanks a lot for coming on the show today. I appreciate it. It's always good to catch up with you, and I always enjoy our talks and uh man, good luck this fault. Tell her listeners, Um, where can they find Jermaine Hodge? Okay, Yeah, I'm usually on Instagram daily and all my posts usually go from Instagram. I just tagged it right into Facebook. I'm rarely on Facebook anymore because just so much going on in Facebook it's hard for me to keep up. But you can find me at uh Jermaine Hodge Underscore Colorado on Instagram, and then you can also find my uh my little page is called Colorado High Up two Hunters. It's not much there, but you know, it's baby steps of course. And then you can always google me. I mean, searched me on Facebook as Jermaine Hodge and I'll pop up. If I don't have an ELK picture or or deer picture there, then it's not me. Hey, one more thing, you did some filming ELK filming this fall of your hunts, and those are gonna get edited up and go on your YouTube channel. What's your YouTube channel. Yeah, so it's all gonna be on the Colorado High up to two Hunters. Um, you'll see it. It looks like, uh, it's a it's a red Colorado sign with with the mountains on there. Uh, it's once again Colorado High. Two Hunters will drop a Tendai series uh throughout the hunt and then uh and then there will be a film later on produced too as well, So it'll be fun. It's it's a lot of action packed. Um. There was a lot of days that we got into olk every day. But there was a lot of days that you get bullis they were talking and then you're like, what in the heck is going on? And then they would come in silent. That was a lot of our action. And then uh, towards the latter part of the season, it just turned up. It was it was absolutely bunker. So it is definitely gonna be some good footage on there. Man. I can't wait to see it. I can't wait to see it. Well, thanks again for coming on and we'll catch you next time, all right, appreciate you. M