00:00:09 Speaker 1: From mediators World News headquarters. 00:00:11 Speaker 2: In Bozeman, Montana. 00:00:13 Speaker 1: This is Col's We Can Review with Ryan cal Callahan. 00:00:17 Speaker 2: Now here's Cal. 00:00:20 Speaker 3: All right, everybody for this week's special drop on Cal's week in Review. Be like Col's multi week in Review. There's so much happening in the world of conservation all the time, you better just get used to it, which is not the same as being complacent, but just used to the fact that there is so much happening that affects you. If you like to go outside, breathe clean air, drink clean water, angle hunt, that you just got to be paying attention all the time, all the time, or just paying attention to this podcast and to that point with me as per usual as is co producer of Col's Weekend Review editor on the Meat Eater website, Jordan Sillers. You can find the written word from Jordan often on some hit titles across the mid Meat Eater universe, everything ranging from things that get people really fired up as to like go what is the better caliber or uh, you know, the the nasty side of the illegal hunting world that we call poaching. 00:01:31 Speaker 1: Jordan, how's it going good? Going great? Good to be here excited to talk about coyotes with these fellas. 00:01:37 Speaker 3: Yes, and these fellas. 00:01:39 Speaker 4: Uh. 00:01:40 Speaker 3: One you will remember uh Steve Windham from Michigan United Conservation Clubs and this episode, h Steve is joined by Justin Toma, who fun fact if you're always looking for those name associations, like I am, his great grandpa was brothers with Marissa Tom's great grandpa. So that's a that's a fun family reunion fact for the Tomes there. What are the odds that Marissa is going to weigh in on the change in coyote or predator hunting seasons in Michigan? 00:02:23 Speaker 2: Justin, my guess, is exceptionally low. 00:02:26 Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah. 00:02:28 Speaker 2: We'll see where you run it up up the flagpole. I like it. 00:02:32 Speaker 3: So, uh Steve, you want to set the stage here on on what we're going to talk about today? 00:02:38 Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks, cal So recently and we'll dive into kind of the preamble and what happened and how this all got to be and why we feel it's an important issue to bring some light to. But recently the Michigan Natural Resources Commission or the NRC, pasted a wildlife conservation order to close the year round coyote hunting season here in Michigan from April fifteenth to July fifteenth, and we can dive in a little bit more around how and why that happened, but we know that here in Michigan they're the number one predator of our faunds. They decimate our ground nesting birds, and they need to be controlled in their population needs to be managed. And so we feel that this is the wrong decision to make and that it was strictly driven by social pressure and there is no science that backs this up. And the NRC, which NUCC helped give them their power back in nineteen ninety six, where we wanted to insulate the management of our natural resources from the political whims in our state capitol, and so we passed a initiative that had over two thirds of Michiganders believed that it is okay and right to take out that political side of things when we're managing natural resources. So in nineteen ninety six, the NRC was given the authority to name and manage game species method of take. And they are a partisaner bipartisan body of appointed appointed citizens who make these decisions, and they are there really to, you know, help us make sure that Michigan outdoors men and women have ample opportunity and that they manage to the best available science, and that if and when we're able to, we expand opportunities for Michigan hunters, anglers and trappers to get outdoors and enjoy our outdoor heritage. 00:04:25 Speaker 3: Gotcha. So what's happening is there's a regulation change that's in effect or it's currently proposed to change the season or means of take for kyote. 00:04:42 Speaker 1: Correct. 00:04:43 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the order actually passed last week. 00:04:48 Speaker 4: We could go today actually, and so it'll go into effect on April fifteenth, when the season we'll close down for the first time in eight years. The Commission voted four to two in favor of the closure, despite hours of public testimony from conservation groups, including mucc that lacking any significant biological justification, the season should remain open. 00:05:12 Speaker 2: The only people speaking in favor of the closure. We're speaking to. 00:05:17 Speaker 4: Public perception, social sciences, public attitudes towards coyotes. But no science was presented to support the closure. No social science was even presented to support these claims that the general public has some interest in protecting coyotes. And actually mucc I went with about six hundred pages of peer reviewed literature laying out the case that springtime was the best time to manage coyote populations and to limit predation on game species and livestock alike. 00:05:52 Speaker 3: And so the reasoning for this didn't include decline coyote populations, unsustainable harvest practices, the fact that if you're looking for what most people use in the world of coyotes, the pelt, the pelt quality is low in the spring. None of that was used as justifiable reasoning to change the regulations. 00:06:25 Speaker 4: Correct and actually have the memo for the order here in front of me, and what it says is that there's a concern about social perception and future loss of management tools if the open season allows coyotes to be taken where they're dependent young present. So from the genesis of this change, it was never about any biological justification whatsoever. 00:06:44 Speaker 5: And while we were there too giving testimony and dozens and dozens of outdoors enthusiasts conservation groups, as Justin said, we're testifying in opposition of this closure. You had your typical animal rights organizations. They're justifying in favor of the closure using the typicult tactics of emotion based decision making, and some of these things that don't take into account the actual biological management of the species and not having them have any other detrimental effect on some of the other game species that we like to chase here in Michigan as well. 00:07:17 Speaker 3: So what I guess what's the m u c c's position on this situation. You know, I can see how if the long season hasn't had a population level effect on the coyotes, that could certainly be used as justification to make season alterations for you know, other considerations. But what what's the muc c's position here. 00:07:52 Speaker 4: So our position is set by a grassroots policy process, so it's set by our membership, and our membership has now twice voted in favor of a year round coyote hunt lacking any biological justification. And I serve on a number of other stakeholder user groups where we vote on regulations even before they get to the Commission, And the bare form is a good example. The Commission, sorry, excuse me, the department will come to these stakeholder user groups lay out a clear biological need to in some units restrict the number of bear tags that are available, and when the department does that. We have no issue whatsoever vote supporting the Department in those decisions. So when there's a clear justification, we absolutely support them as conservationists. In this case, you're right that it will not have a population level impact. We cannot kill enough coyotes to harm them on a full landscape level. But the Department, in the justification for expanding the season in twenty sixteen said part of our argument the Commission last week was that what you can expect is spring is a good time to control populations, limit depredations, limit bond predations during that spring season. So yes, landscape wise, it is almost irrelevant on the total scale of coyote populations, but locally or regionally, you can have some impacts on keeping those coyote populations in check during the spring. 00:09:19 Speaker 5: And it's important to point out too that the Department of Natural Resources, the Michigan DNR, was neutral on this issue this time around, but as just in reference, back in twenty sixteen, the NRC approved the movement to that year round season. The DNR supported that full year round season. And so now that we are nine years later, and now that some of these social perceptions and some of the people on the NRC have been appointed and reappointed, and we're starting to see some of this creep into our natural resources and the management of that coming from people who aren't pro hunting or actually users of these of these resources. They might be non hunters or have a perception of anti hunting on some cases, but it's to us if there's not been a population level of fact since twenty sixteen when we open this season, there seems to be no reason to then now limit that opportunity, keep hunters out of the field, not allow people to harvest these animals when they are able to have the biggest effect locally or regionally on certain populations. We don't see the reason or justification to close the season at all. 00:10:27 Speaker 4: I'll take it a step further too, because for us it's kind of a cornerstone issue. We were founded in nineteen thirty seven on the belief that game management and biological management decisions should be made insulated from political pressures and social pressures to the greatest extent possible. Michigan is a referendum state, so we try and keep a lot of our work out of the legislature so that it cannot be then sent to a ballot and have ballot box biology practice. That's how we lost our wolf hunt. So for us, it's just a cornerstone issue too. We have to insist that these decisions are based in some science because we see what's happening in other states around the country and we don't want to have that happen to Michigan. We're afraid that this decision is going to make it harder for game managers to exercise lethal control in the future. 00:11:15 Speaker 5: And we have some other great opportunities that have been taking place where we're actually expanding our bobcat hunting in some parts of the state, where we're allowing for other opportunities and increased opportunities for people to get out there and enjoy their outdoor heritage, enjoy their natural resources. 00:11:30 Speaker 1: We just don't see that this is how you go about this with the. 00:11:34 Speaker 5: Closure, and that the NRC is charged with a very very important task and they've done some great work in the past to allow more opportunity, you know, more people coming to the state to enjoy our natural resources. But this one, to us is something that they're kind of going backwards in a sense and not doing what they're legally bound to do by managing through the best available science. 00:11:56 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's not necessarily about the coyote. The coyote is just the case kind of dujure right. 00:12:03 Speaker 2: Now, correct. 00:12:06 Speaker 4: I would know there are probably other issues I would choose to have this large principle debate over, but coyotes is the one that we are given at the time. 00:12:14 Speaker 3: Yeah. So basically what you're saying is you don't want to start set a precedent with this means of changing regulations, meaning that because regulations have been changed in this instance based off of conjecture, really assumption and conjecture, no hard science. You don't want this case to be something people can point to and say, Okay, well we don't really need a reason. We just need to make a compelling emotional argument in order to change the next regulation, or the next season setting, or the next bag lemma. 00:13:06 Speaker 4: Exactly, these these perceived social pressures, and again I say perceived because there was no evidence provided that there is even social concern about this. You just it can't be allowed to infiltrate our decision making process. And I point to you know, anti hunters find every common method of bear hunting objectionable, but without proper bear management. You know, we could have nuisance complaints running wild across the state and could be very harmful to both bear and prey populations. So yeah, I couldn't have set it better myself. This this, this is the slippery slope argument, right, This could be the first thing that sets us over the edge, and we don't want to end up like some of those other states that are losing some of their opportunity simply because of again perceived social pressures. 00:13:49 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's interesting too because it's kind of like, well, where's the agriculture lobby here, because you know, we know that you you know, dairy farmers, your ranchers out there taking pot shots at coyotes during the calving season, during the spring season. They make those individuals feel better because they can make a direct action against a real or perceived threat, but they're not having a population level impact on those coyote populations. 00:14:35 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's important to point out too that the order does still allow that private property owners can still harvest, you know, animals that are doing are about to do damage to livestock or crops and things like that. 00:14:50 Speaker 5: But again, that goes back to how that process here in Michigan plays out to where the individual conservation officer that shows up at that scene is the one who makes that decision. It's very muddied around how and who approves, you know, is this animal actually doing or about to do harm? So there you know this, I don't think there's ever been a case of this, but if at that individual conservation officer just didn't want to give that landowner the permission to do that, they could then be cited and deemed a poacher because they're taking a game, a species. 00:15:22 Speaker 1: Out of season. 00:15:23 Speaker 5: So again, we want to make sure that this isn't going down a rabbit hole where you know, landowners aren't able to manage based on individual, you know, assertations of different individual situations, and again that you know, we're not having any population level effect, but still allowing for ample opportunity out in the field. 00:15:44 Speaker 4: There's a couple more layers to nuisance control here in Michigan too, one the biggest of which is that it exists at the sole discretion of the director of the DNR. We actually have pretty great DNR director here right now. He's new, but he's he's doing a great job by all accounts, at least from our stakeholder perspective, but we don't know who his successor will be or the one after that, and with the stroke of a pen, that nuisance control program could vanish. And that goes back to MUCC desiring to keep our game management decisions insulated from political pressures. 00:16:15 Speaker 2: The DNR is an appointee of the governor. 00:16:18 Speaker 4: Beyond that, we also made sure the Commission Undertood that coyotes don't use on X. They don't know if they're on public or private land. They may then on private or on public excuse me, and go on too private and pray on livestock, and then, like Steve said, the other thing is it's very much at the discretion of the responding conservation officer because what constitutes damage or present where they can emately do damage is not black or white. It is still very many shades of gray. So it does not provide sufficient tools for private land hunters private land land managers to control these populations. 00:17:00 Speaker 3: When managing a public resource. 00:17:04 Speaker 2: Public wildlife. 00:17:06 Speaker 3: It always rubs me the wrong way when a state comes out and says any form of hunting is legal on private property and not legal on public ground, Like, I really don't care what it is no. 00:17:25 Speaker 4: That was kind of my last point that I made to the Commission about that nuisance control structures. It creates a pay to play system. Those that are not fortunate enough to own private land no longer I know. 00:17:36 Speaker 2: They lose a quarter of their season. 00:17:37 Speaker 4: That's what it comes down to. They lose a quarter of their season because they are not fortunate enough to own private land or have access to private land. So there's definitely an equity issue there as well. On top of just the principles of game management, there's a very real equity issue at play as well. 00:17:52 Speaker 5: And it's important to remember too that you know, justin alluded to it that our policy setting process or our legislative agenda, the things that MUCC takes the fight up for is set by our members. So as we represent forty thousand hunters, anglers, trappers, recreational shooters, we have over two hundred affiliated conservation groups around the state. We were in Sussaint Marie, Michigan a couple of weeks ago prior to this decision taking place at the NRC, and our membership unanimously voted to reaffirm our support of a year round hunting season on coyotes, because as Justin said, I'm a public land turkey hunter, and if we can't manage the species, it's going to get harder and harder. And we're already seeing turkey populations starting to decline here in Michigan. And so if we can't manage one of their top predators that they're taking turkey eggs and ground icing birds, grouse, would cock all these things for those public land hunters, it's going to have a detrimenterial effect on other opportunities as well. If we can't keep this species under control. 00:18:52 Speaker 4: As the full time policy guy in lobbyist prem ucc it puts a lot of weight behind me when I can go to our state capital or to our commission and talk about you know, the universal or the universal support I have on this issue in particular, you know, supporting our position. So it lends a lot of weight when when the rank and file hunter, trapper angler of Michigan supports what we're working on. 00:19:17 Speaker 3: So let's talk about that and support on something like very specific to this, like even if you were to extract the coyote out of it and and make a stance on the fact that regulation for lawful legal hunting was changed without any real basis, how would how would you do that? How would m U see see weigh in on that? And how would the constituents of m U CEE CEE or you know, the the hunting public there in Michigan weigh in on this. 00:20:02 Speaker 4: So we communicate to our members regularly about our policy work. They are we can do a biweekly newsletter so they are all made available of these issues, oftentimes weeks or months in advance. Generally, we would encourage them to reach out to their state legislator or a commissioner. In this case, all of the commissioners let their voice be known. But you know, some people don't don't want to necessarily get personally involved in the way they get involved is through conservation organizations like m UCC And so they trust in us to make sure that we are representing their position adequately to the decision makers and just trust trust the work that we're doing on. 00:20:43 Speaker 2: A day and day out basis. 00:20:44 Speaker 5: Yeah, and we have an action center that alerts and directs all of our membership to ways that they can use their voices. Justin said, whether that's personally calling one of the commission members to give them their opinion or their stance on this, sending email, so legislators, representative Senate members, even reaching out to the DNR directly and sending dropping something in the director's inbox to be able to make your voice heard and as just instead, you know, not everyone's going to take that action. So it's great that NUCC can carry the voice of those forty thousand plus members. And you know, as these things creep up, it just speaks to the necessity of an organization like NUCC and for others to join us, to lend our voice, to lend their voice, to lend you their membership to us, just because if you know, right now we have forty thousand members, if we had one hundred and fifty thousand members, two hundred thousand members, our voice only gets louder and louder. And that is what the state spoke up about in you know, nineteen ninety six when we helped the proposal g pasted and gave the NRC this authority. That was because we rallied everyone in you know, in the state to educate them, to help them understand the benefits of something like this. And now we need those voices again, We need those members to get back on board, sign up to get a membership, use your voice to send emails, make phone calls. But you know, if you're not looking to make that phone call yourself, joint nuc SEE is the very best way to ensure that these decisions continue to be based in sound science and not in social pressure. 00:22:11 Speaker 3: Sound science not in social pressure. You know that that's tough to do, even on the hunting side, right because we all know that we're passionate about these issues. What what would be your kind of one? Two, Three Reminders to people who want to write in make a phone call on their own on issues like this, what are the guidelines they need to stick to. 00:22:45 Speaker 2: The first and foremost is always be polite and respectful. 00:22:48 Speaker 4: The quickest way to get your message ignored will be to ignore that rule. But what I will tell people is consistency is key to particularly with your legislators. The commission being a small body, they don't get nearly as much constituent services. And actually there's a good chance if you call the commissioners you could probably get them on the phone. 00:23:08 Speaker 2: If you want to talk to your. 00:23:09 Speaker 4: Legislator about something, consistency, you know it may take a couple of months. 00:23:13 Speaker 2: You may call in. 00:23:13 Speaker 4: Or write a letter or an email, and it may only hit the front desk for a while, but eventually they're going to realize that you're, you know, a reasonable, reasonable guy or gal, and eventually you're going to call their office one day. 00:23:25 Speaker 2: And the legislator's going to pick up the phone. 00:23:27 Speaker 4: So kind of have your ducks in a row, know what you want to say, Be respectful of their time, be polite, come across as the same human being, and you're going to get You're going to get the audience that you seek with these people, and they will listen and take it under advisement. 00:23:42 Speaker 2: So those are the rules I would. 00:23:44 Speaker 4: Say when communicating with any decision maker, Play consistent, concise, and you will you can make a difference and share. 00:23:53 Speaker 2: Share what it means to you. 00:23:54 Speaker 1: Share the stories you've had growing up. 00:23:56 Speaker 5: In the woods, the story of you know, possibly lose a pet or a livestock to an issue like this, specifically to the coyote topic. But talk about what it means to be an outdoors man or woman in Michigan and how amazing these. 00:24:10 Speaker 1: Natural resources are. 00:24:11 Speaker 5: The success stories we've had in Michigan to bring back turkey populations to expand bobcan't hunting. You know, we had a resolution pass that we'd like the DN artists start to explore a moose hunt in the Upper Peninsula in some places of the States. So we want to be respectful and polite, as Justin said, but we want them to understand the value. 00:24:29 Speaker 1: This holds, the heritage that this has. 00:24:32 Speaker 5: And the positive impacts it makes in our lives as hunters, anglers, and trappers. That these are things that we put immense value on and a lot of these species are here because of us in the outdoor community that put value on these species, that put value in the way of life that we have. And so sharing these stories, sharing the story with your child, sharing the story of you as a child, just sharing the relief it gives you for your mental health or your physical fitness, or whatever it might be. But stay consistent and you know, do some research. Nu see see is a wealth of knowledge for things that we've been able to dig up and talk about as justice that he came to the NRC with over six hundred pages of peer reviewed studies that showed that the sound science is that this season needs to stay open so that we can manage this predator and just make sure that you're cordial, you're polite, and you're genuine. You know, we are always looking for more people to use on their voice. We are looking for people to join our conservation policy Board. So anyway anyone wants to get involved. Again, it's not scary. They are people just like us. 00:25:34 Speaker 6: You know. 00:25:34 Speaker 5: I got to sit with one of the representatives out of the Upper Peninsula in Michigan, and he's a dairy farmer and. 00:25:40 Speaker 1: He had to run back home and tend to his cows after we got done at a banquet one night. 00:25:44 Speaker 5: But these are really just people as well, and they want to hear from you. They're there to represent you. They are there to carry your voice, and NUCEC is going to carry it as well. So just continue to reach out and make sure that our way of life is protected and our hairt is viewed in a positive way that it really gives back to the overall health of Michigan's environment. 00:26:07 Speaker 3: Well said, well where one more time? Where can folks find you? 00:26:11 Speaker 5: Yeah, so you can visit us at MUCC dot org. We've got all the social channels as well. Most of them are MUCC nineteen thirty seven because of our founding dates sover eighty seven years now, we've been uniting citizens to conserve, protect, and enhance our natural resources and outdoor heritage. You know, we've got our youth camp which is about to open up here in the next month or two, where we've put over sixty thousand young people through our camp to help them understand archery and fishing and paddling and shooting twenty two's. They get hunter safety certified, they're taught the North American Wildlife model. You know, it's really conservation through education. You can go to the website MUCC dot org and if you're not ready to join yet, or you know, if you need a little more convincing, sign up for our newsletter. We have a free newsletter, the Conservation Insider. It comes out every two weeks. It's going to give you a rundown of all the things that we're working on. The legislative stuff is highlighted in there as well. Or you can attend one of our events. You know, we're coming into event season. We've got some great events coming up throughout the summer. 00:27:09 Speaker 1: We've got two. 00:27:09 Speaker 5: Different charity shoots, We've got a golf outing, We've got a couple of banquets coming up, so just get involved, reach out, try and support the mission, and make sure that your voice is heard in the halls of Lansing and throughout the rest of the states so that we can continue to protect our natural resources NUTO heritage. 00:27:25 Speaker 1: This has caused a pretty big rift in the hunting community here in Michigan. 00:27:29 Speaker 5: There's some different groups that actually were in support of this, and we don't understand why, but you know, it might be a good thing to touch on how NCC can unite all of us and that this has to be a hunting, fishing, trapping wide thing that we can't get into the weeds and let these issues divide us, because that's just opening the door for more of the animal rights and the anti hunters to come in and show that we're weakened as sportsmen and women here in Michigan. 00:28:00 Speaker 2: Ama had been in a m at Dan treasure

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