00:00:02 Speaker 1: Most shameful thing you've ever done in a tournament pooped in a duck blind with the camera guy watching me. It doesn't matter what my favorite fly is for most of these people unless they're fishing right alongside me. Look, kids, the catfish is eating those ducks, soaking in soaking the terror. You are on the verge of killing people. We have to like send you to Montana to go fly fishing. Good morning, degenerate anglers. Welcome to Bent, the podcast that believes Congress would get a whole lot more done if representatives from different parties were forced to fish together at least one day a month, preferably. I say on a headboat out of Brooklyn, Miami or Galveston, Texas. I'm Joe SURMELI I'm Miles Nalty, and I am a hundred percent convinced of that statement. Proves the statement. No, man, I've taken I have taken hundreds, maybe thousands, I don't know. I lost count. I've taken lots of people, strangers fishing in the coast of my life. Yeah. I didn't always agree with him, I didn't always get along with them, they didn't always like them. But no matter what was going on. No matter what kinds of things they said or we disagreed upon, we were always able to find common ground in the sense that we all had the same goal of catching fish and we could put some of the other things aside and at least agree on that. And the theme for this week's show on that note is bringing people together, and to be fair, that's kind of the theme of the show all the time. I think we I hope we'd established that by now, but we're gonna lean in that extra hard today because, um, after recently being told I was essentially a dirt bag for using trout magnets on a fly rod, I think we could all use a little more focus on what connects us that actually someone actually yes in so many words via d M I was called a piece of ship for using uh or promoting the use of trout magnets on a fly rod. So I hope whoever sent that messages listening right now, because I'm gonna say this send me some Oh wait, I mean there's a box, it's packaged, it's got the packing tape on it. We've talked on the show about our reluctance to go to the post office, and I just need to get my ask to the post office. We're gonna make your trout fishing dirty. Send it, Send it just just as long as I have them, you know, ahead of the spring fishing bananza on the Madison, because I want to be seen on the Madison River tying trout magnets onto my the end of my fly rod and castume out there proudly. I'll get you trout magnet hat too, so you can just go the whole route, or I'll do a trout magnet jersey. I'll do it. And and and I don't mean that in the sense of trying to like divide people further. I mean that in the sense of, like, let's all get over ourselves and come together on on how we're united. And I think I think I speak for Joe and myself when I say that we still believe fishing is one of the few places where people who disagree on just about everything else can find common ground. No, I hate just about everything. Lance V stands for hate that clown. But I'd still fish with the guy. And you know what, I'm pretty sure i'd have a good time doing it. I'd have a tremendous time, if only because I'd spend the entire day just backhandedly making fun of him. But look on that note, right, let's kick the tires and light the fires. On the show, we're striving to make extra diverse in terms of guests, information, and our special brand of self deprecation. And we're gonna start with our Covering Water segment featuring someone I've actually shared a boat with, had a great time with, though not because of the fishing, because I never went a line that day, but it was magical because I had a front row seat to competitive bass angling like no other, taking his licks on bent today. I'm happy I could say this the one and only Mike I Kennelly, I'm going in. I hold it, I'm all right. Today on Covering Water, we've got um this guy I call sort of an up and comer in the fishing scene. My notes say his name is Mike. I can elly. Mike, tell us who you are and what you do. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm totally kidding, kidding. I had an answer for you. I'm totally Mike Elliott. You're listening to the very wrong podcast. Um, but dude, we are so pumped and thankful to have you on the show Man, and considering we're both Jersey guys, it's it's taken way too long for us to collab, as the kids say, um on something. In fact, the only time you and I have ever hung out is when I rode with you on day one of the Elite Turney on the Delaware many years ago. Uh yeah. And I was always a little bum becuse I feel like I was there for the tough day and then in the following days you just utterly dominated. But um, I heard I've been, I've been known to be. But that day comes up often. People always like tell me about that day and I'm like, oh, well, it's the only time in my life I was ever on a boat that, for a brief time was straight vertical. So that that was that. That was my takeaway from from that. I just saw the trolley motor under the belly of a seven forty seven in Philly Airport. Um, but yeah, man, that was I'm glad we got to do that, and that was that was a while ago to me too. I'm actually glad you were there for the first day. You know, tournaments like that are one on the tough day, on the day where you're struggling and trying to figure it out there. They're the days you win, you know. The other days were gravy, you know. So I mean, you know, I think catching five that day, putting that weight in the boat, you know, I had, I had a missed opportunity to day. I remember I broke one off. Um, you know, that's the day that to find the week for me, not the days you know where I caught him easier, you know. So yeah, I'm glad you were with me that day. No, dude, I got it. It It was a great hug I got when you caught five. I remember that. Also. I also lost I also lost one of my favorite it hats that day, but I thought it inappropriate because you were working and stuff to be like, hey, Mike, could you spin around and grab my hat? So technically you kind of owe me a hat. But anyway, I've got on going your way, and I've donated many to the river gods of the Delaware River over the years myself. So if i'm I'm I'm kind of kidding because I don't think since I've been in the industry, I've ever paid for a hat. They're all free hats. Anyway, so you know, so, all right, so we will move on here and here here's what we do in covering Water. Instead of conducting a well thought out, sort of proper interview, I put two minutes on the clock and Miles and I rapid fire questions that you. And the goal here is to get through as many as we can in two minutes, which means you can't think too long, you just you just have to react in this one. It's kind of like a like a verbal Rorschach test. And as a prior guest on on Covering Water, once said, oh, so it's two minutes to end my career, which you know, depending on how in the in the spirit of fairness, right, um, we will give you one minute to expand and elaborate on whichever answer you think was the most damaging at the end of the two minutes, I like that. Okay. Does that all sound good? That sounds great? Okay, alright, so I'm gonna put two minutes on the clock here and here we go. Miles. Are you ready, I'm ready? You're leading, right, I am leading? All right? Here? We are snakeheads yes please or no thanks? Yes? Please? Absolutely? Snakeheads do not get the credit they deserve. They're not bad for the population of a large mouth and smallmouth bass. I love snakeheads, my man. Most revolutionary lure ever invented. Uh, you know, in my business and bass fishing, I'm going to have to say the plastic worm. Uh. It kind of all started from that bait to where it is now. The madness has begun with the plastic worm. Cool? Cool? Okay, Which major US metropolis has the best fishing? Boy, you know, there's a lot. But I'm right here next to Philly, So i gotta go Philly. I'm going Philadelphia. I'm going school. Yeah. Nice. Which is worse? Zebra muscles or Eurasian milfoil? Oh? I, they're both. I'm gonna get in trouble for this. I love them both. I love exotics. I love you know. In some states they try to make you clean your boat. I'd never do that. I love it. I'll transport muscles and milfoil all over the country. Uh man, They're neither of them are bad. They're both really great. Oh man, love that. Oh my god. See that's the one that ruined my career. So I'll go back and talk about that for two minutes. Okay, alright, alright, night, alright, Corn, Slipknot or Romstein. Oh man, I'm gonna have to go slip Not. I love Corn as well, but I'm gonna have to go slip Not all the way. Okay, follow up Biggie, Tupac, eminem or Outcast who just I gotta go Biggie. You know, Biggie and Tupac. There's always a battle between the two, but you gotta stay on the east ghost. Who is the greatest angler of all time? Man, big debate there there's been for years. I'm still voting for Rick Klon, you know, I'm I'm saying Rick Klan from a standpoint of what he's accomplished and my opinion, he's the first guy that really was like the thinking man of bass fishing. So I'm going Rick Klon. Okay, most shameful thing you've ever done in a tournament? Oh boy, well that's that's one I don't have. I'll eat up all the two minutes, uh most out of the two minutes. I'm letting it go because we're having a little fun here. Okay, Poop did a duck bline with the camera guy watching me? Yes, what is I can't even keep going. What is the most underutilized bass lure of all time? Most underutilized bass lure jigginspoon? Okay, how many turns and a clinch? Not my and I would say six to eight, dependent on the line size, but six eight okay. The best cheese steak can fill Adelphia is made by oh Man. You know it's funny because Gino's and Pats gets all the attention. But I'm going Tony Luke's. Yeah, I love that. Biggest mistake the average bass angler makes. The biggest mistake would be not throwing deep enough into the cover, not making the cast that is the impossible cast to make. Okay, if you're not chasing bass, you'd prefer to be chasing anything swimming in saltwater, a salty fish, the fat head minnows last, okay, gas station burrito or coffee shop pannini. I'm going I'm going about bottom of the barrel, gas station uh food all the way, the junkie, greasy, dirty, give me the gas station food, dude. That was I'm so glad you went, Tony Luke because I was like, man, If he says Gino's, his social media numbers are just gonna plumb it. Over that answer. Now, I don't I don't want to just say what everybody else says. I'm gonna go a little different on that one. I struggle though, with the roast pork Italian or the cheese steak it Tony, I'd agree with that. You know, roast pork is just as good as the cheese stead especially at Luke's the broccoli rob Come on, man, there's so many choices. Yep, yep, all right, man, So you've got one minute, give or take, will say, to elaborate on any one of those answers. Okay, I do want to elaborate. Uh, probably on the Eurasian mill foils, either muscles and snakeheads probably all fall maybe into the same category, you know, their exotics, their invasives, and you know, but there are good things that come out of those things. And and so you know, from a snakehead perspective, what a great game fish. You know, they thought it was the devil, they thought it was the end of the world. Here all these years later, it's an amazing game fish. It's a great fighter. Um. And you know, sort of the same thing with the other two, you know, Eurasian mill foil, although for homeowners and maybe water skiers, and and and that segment is the single best form of cover, vegetation cover for large mouth bass. Uh. It makes the life, the life of the system increased. Twofold Upper Chesapeake Bay is a great example. Uh. We had a hurricane come through in the eighties, wiped out all the grass, it wiped out all the fish. Eurasian milfoil all these years later came back in full force. It's twenty square miles of Eurasian milfoil. And why do you think it's the best bass fishery in the Northeast right now? So, Uh, zebra muscles, I'd have to give it the same nod you know, came over in ballast water. But wow, has it really shaped and changed the small mouth bass fishery? Uh? And and some of the great lakes and river systems it's gotten into. It's made the water cleaner. Um, it's it's just it has diversified the fishery. There were never twenty to thirty pound bags of small mouths available hardly anywhere in the United States. And since the zebra muscles, it's commonplace. So long live the exotics. Oh my goodness, I wish I wish we had a whole show to talk about. We're gonna have to. I did too, because yeah, I know, man, because I am a snake fanatic, a snake had fanatic. So to hear you say that, chase him all the time around here. UM, so that's that's cool. But anyway, look, hopefully we didn't ask you anything to insulting and you'll agree agree to come back on Bend again in the future. Um. In the meantime, if you don't already follow Mike, you need to because the amount of valuable fishing information that that this guy produces weekly is staggering on YouTube. You've got going like like in the shop fish my city. It's all rock star And we appreciate you hanging out with us so much. Man, Thank you, guys, I appreciate it. As awesome as that was. I'm a dred percent positive we're gonna hear about the invasive species. Love that that Mike just confessed. I just have a hunch, I have a god. That was interesting to one of those modes where I wish we had a longer format interview show. I mean I usually feel that way, but right now I do, so that we could we could dig into topics like that one when they come up. But you know that would just make us like every other fishing podcast out there, and that's not what we're trying to do. But I think we need to chop this up at least a little bit. We can't just drop that and walk away. Snakeheads. I get right, they're they're they're not destroying native fisheries in the ways everyone expected. They found their own little niches and ecosystems, and as you and Mike and everyone else tells me, they're great sport fish. So I get that, But milfoil zebra muscles, Like, do you know how much of money and effort the state of Montana puts out every year to try and keep zebra muscles out of the water? Whiz? I don't have that figure at hand, but it's a lot. I was gonna say, I'll take your word for it. I don't. I don't know, but I believe you. Yeah, I don't either, but I know it's a lot. I know that they added a new like invasive species stamp to our our our fishing licenses a couple of years ago just to pay for it because it was costing so much. I mean, saying zebra muscles are beneficial that borders on like conservation treason. Man. Yeah, if it were anyone else, I'll say this, if it in my opinion, for anyone else making that claim, I'd probably call bullshit. But Mike, I respect and I feel like I feel like I need to do more research on this and follow up with a fish News segment on milfoil and muscles, and depending on what I find, I don't know, maybe we can bring back for a quick debate or something. I'm like, my gears are turning on this one. No, I'd be totally down for that, And and I get it. And it's a great debate because we we've talked on this show about how many Anglers feel zebra muscles essentially saved the Great Lakes, you know what I mean, Like there's two sides to every story. Anyway, starting up a debate segment bent style could be very interesting and a fun addition to the show. But I feel like we might be starting to go overboard with new new segment ideas. We might the show is only so long, you know, we just you know, I know, I know the these like we are not short on ideas every time we're talking like, oh, what do we gotta do this other thing? Just because we have the ideas doesn't make them good ideas. But we got ideas. No, they're not all good ideas. Some of them are terrible. Um, just thinking back to the earlier days here, Like the time you try to convince me we should do a segment where we surprise anglers on the water by just throwing a mic in their face and going, hey man, what's you catching? That was not a good idea, Like that's you can't do that ship, not where I live anyway. Just tap some dude on the shoulder with a mic and his down for that. Alright, alright, But if we're on the subject of bad ideas, how about the that one you want to do. We're like, we combed social media looking for for comments that we're complaining about spot burns, like hey man, you're blowing up by spot and then we would blow those spot burns up as like some kind of weird public service announcement to let people know what waters were. Officially that I'll defend that through and through. That was a work in progress, and it was a fantastic idea. We're gonna call it burned is, but then we thought I thought better of it. Um Anyway, Look, the point is that sometimes we find ourselves having a conversation with somebody much smarter than ourselves, and they give us a little nugget of wisdom that doesn't necessarily fit into the format of this show. So essentially we don't know what to do with it, right, So instead of trying to invent a new segment to fit the content, we just decided that sometimes we're gonna give you these random stories or tips that come up when we're interviewing people for our regular segments, which I think is a good compromise. No long ago, we've talked to Tom Rosenbauer, one of the most respected and knowledgeable fly fish anglers out there, and uh and Tom, in case you don't know, host the or of his podcast and he receives approximately four thousand, five d and twenty seven stupid questions a year by my math, and the three of us got to talk about how most anglers like they just asked the wrong questions. Yeah, questions like what are the fish fighting on or where are the big fish might seem like good things to ask anglers who know more than you, but they're not. They're actually dumb questions, right. The answers to those questions are true for a few hours, maybe a day or two, write a week. Most so, if you really want to learn long term useful knowledge from smart people, you need to work on your question asking skills. And that's exactly what Tom is going to explain. He's a fish talco shape fish, and today we are we are very fortunate. Indeed, Mr Tom Rosenbauer Orvis has agreed to talk to us. I'm I'm not totally sure why he agreed to talk to us, but we are extremely grateful. And uh and before I actually let Tom talk, which I will do in a minute, I have to say that Tom and I used to often run into each other at the fishing shows, and uh, I always enjoyed the time I got to spend with him, partially because he's just a good dude to talk to you, but mostly because he is the only person I know who makes his own chocolate. Let me tell you, Tom, you make some damn damn fine chocolate. And if you ever get sick of being a fly fishing celebrity, I see a future for you as a successful chocolate tier. I too, have had the chocolate in its legendary there's no there's no future. I mean you think you think writing fishing books doesn't make that Yeah, yeah, we all know that, right, try and make it chocolate for a living. But we didn't actually bring here to talk about chocolate. We want to hear about stupid questions and smart questions. So please, if you've got some examples of questions you wish people would stop asking, as well as some examples of questions you wish they would ask more often, let us know. I've got lots of them. I believe that as I answered podcast questions everyway, how a lots of One of the one of the worst is, I'm going to Hot Creek in California next week. What flies should I use? A guy who lives in Vermont, Right, And they're serious, They want to know, They want to know. They want me to to be their Google machine. Um, because that's what I do, alright, and that's what I tell them. So that one is, that one is is really annoying because I can't help them. Another one is what's your favor word fly or what's your favorite fish? It doesn't matter what my favorite fly is for most of these people unless they're fishing right alongside me. Uh. And and as far as my favorite fish is concerned, you know, we all have we all have these we all have these desires, and you know, we get what we want out of fly fishing. My favorite fish might be pretty boring for for other people. So um, those those two or three are probably the worst. And I feel like the favorite fly question is really just trying to get at I don't want to have to get a bunch of flies, So can you tell me, like the one that will solve all my problems? And that's just not that's not a thing. Yeah yeah, So what what are examples? You know, one or two examples of questions that you wish people would ask more often than why? Well, you know, the best questions are the ones with specificity. So um, somebody says, you know, I was I was on a stream, the water temperature was fifty five degrees. Uh, there were cadis and mayflies hatching, and uh, I was using a five X tippit in an out care cadis and I couldn't get a bight. What do you think I was doing wrong? You know, when when you give you those specifics, um, then you can help them or something like, um, you know, I just remember one that I have to answer on a podcast later today where guy was fishing UM six x tippitt with bluegill bugs and he said his clinch knots weren't holding, and you know, he tried to try it and even the improved clinch knot didn't hold. And you know, that's a that's a that's a great one because you know, you know exactly what he was doing wrong. He was trying to put really fine tip it too a heavy wire hook and clinch knot needs you know, uh, you can't go around that big diameter. So you know, the more specific they get with their question and the better my answer can be right. And I think that that's applicable. You know, obviously that's applicable with you and the questions you get in your podcast. But I think that's someone that folks can take any time they ask anyone at a whether it's a flashop or a bait shop, or with a guide or an outfit or just a buddy who knows more than you. Make sure that you're paying attention to enough variables to be able to get your question answered effectively. Don't just say I was there and I wasn't catching fishing. What did I do wrong? Yeah, there's so many variables. There's so many variables. Another annoying one is that you know, I hook three fish and I lost too. What was I doing? On? Well? Fish get unbuttoned and people, and it seems like to me, it seems like in some days more fish unbuttoned than others. And I have no idea why, even with sharp hooks and good hook sets and everything. So I don't think anyone can answer that particular question. Why did I lose all those fish? I don't know. Maybe they beat you, maybe you suck at it. Either way, Tom, we really really appreciate you. Can't we can say that on this show, thankful, but we really do appreciate you. You debasing yourself enough to come and chat with us here on the show, and we hope to see you again soon. Thanks Miles, Thanks Joe. You know, learning to ask good questions is one of the best skills you can have, because the truth is that every good angler right takes as much knowledge as possible from other people. Oh we were shamelessly steel yeah, yeah, And learning how to ask good questions is a lot like learning how to do anything well and fishing. Pay attention to the details, be aware of what's going on around you, you know, situational awareness. As a captain I learned from back in the day, used to beat into our heads cultivate the habit of noticing everything for the record, for whatever it's worth, I could not agree more with Tom. And in the interest of increasing your awareness of all the things going around you that are at least tangentially fish related, it's time fish news. Fish. That escalated quickly. Okay, I'm gonna start off with a with a little housekeeping and uh and this one is a bit of a correction for me. On the Christmas episode, I talked about using old Christmas trees as fish habitat and that that definitely got some reaction. I heard from some people on that one got some notes. So so, first, a listener named Caleb, who didn't want to give his last name because he doesn't want to listen to us, butcher it that that's a quote and also happens to be an arborist, pointed out that I mistakenly called Christmas trees pine trees. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he wrote, while there may be some people somewhere that use pine trees as Christmas trees. The traditional trees sold pretty much everywhere as a Douglas fur And and if any of you out there wondering what the issue is here, this is valid. Pine trees are not fur trees. They are both conifers, but they are not the same. And and I will own that one. That was a rookie mistake on my part, and Caleb, I appreciate that correction. Thank you. Also, Justin Walters, who works for the Ohio Department of Natural Resources, wrote, I just wanted to give you a short fisheries biologists perspective on Christmas tree brush piles. Here in the Midwest. A lot of our reservoirs are aging and the quality of fish habitat is gradually declining. These reefs offer a little help. I do agree. They don't last as long as hardwood, but they're easy to come by. Our angling community, along with the other outdoor enthusiasts, love to help our agency by providing the trees we use every year. It makes them feel a connection to the resource more than just buying a license. As far as how the fishing is on them, it's seasonal, but it can be amazing. Hopefully some fellow listeners contact their local fisheries managers to see if they are doing a collection this year. So there you go. If you are one of those lazy asses whose tree is still desiccating in the corner of your living room, call your local agency see if you can turn that fire hazard into fish habitat. At the time of this recording, mind still on the front lawn and it is blown over. It's all like dried out and spindling out. It's like blown over onto my neighbor's lawn five times. I do appreciate the first guy, though, just not giving the last name of somebody whose last name is never pronounced correctly, not once, not ever, sirmil kermel Kremili, sermal. Anyway, I'm looking at you. You know what. You brought it up. It's time to acknowledge the fact the film is not every single week. Yeah, yeah, it's nulty. Sorry we had to do that. But they're okay, all right. So I've got I've got one very quick but important shout out. I have to give him a listener, John Mertz, who sent me a totally badass handmade spearing decoy featuring the bent logo, which is appropriate because we've just done a bunch of spearing decoy stuff. I highlighted Ryan Ebert, another listener, his his decoys on the Instagram and we had the news story about the the Deek that sold for a lot of money. So John sent this to me and uh, it's it's a it's a pike shape and it's blue and it's super red and some of you may have actually seen it on my Instagram page. But the personal touch that really resonated with me is the Misfits Fiend skull on its back. And I feel like I have this thing going where people are like, hey, if you want similar to be to your ship, slap a Misfits skull on And they're not wrong. They're not like you could give me an ironing border, a dust pan. If it's got a Misfits skull on it, I'll think it's just the most dope thing. Um. Anyway, John, thanks again, And while I'm not sure if you've gotten yours yet, I believe I told you so. He sent some deeks out to Bozeman for you. There's I'm looking forward to it. There's more custom decoys out your way, and I'm sure they are a killer too, So that's it. Had to give a shout out to John. We can move on the news here and as a reminder, Miles and I don't know which news stories the other gentleman is bringing to the table. This is a competition, and Phil, who will hopefully say Nulty correctly for the first time in Bent history, assuming you win and your last name gets read, will weigh in when we're done and declare a news victor. You are leading off this week. So what do you got. Yeah, I've been on a cold streak, so so Phil, I hope you're listening. Listening careful, Miles Nulty to Miles and to the bringing the heat. Uh all right, So I'm leading up this week with something just a little different because I found the story. It's not new, but I think it's really interesting and you'll you'll see why. And it also it relates to something that you covered last week, Joe and a quick recap. You told a story about a pair of catfish caught in Louisiana that had a whole family of ducks in their bellies. Right, yep. So I was I was googling around and I was trying to find pictures of that story because you and I have been talking about like what kind of ducks they were, and I said, well, it can't be mad, right and and you said I'll send you the photos, which you never did, and I'm over. But I didn't. Actually in the googling, I didn't find any photos of that story. But I got sidetracked. I didn't look that far because I got I found this other article that that I'm now going to share. This one comes from the Independent. It's an online British news publication. And uh and this was actually published last March, but again I think it's still worthy of of of covering. The headline reads fish caught eating ducks at Essex shopping center. Lake was removed because it quote upset children and and not surprisingly, this story got picked up in a number of different UK news outlets, everything from the BBC to the Sun, like the whole, the whole gambit. There's a mall in Essex, which is an area north of London, and that mall borders a lake. The mall is creatively named Lakeside Shopping Center. Really thinking outside the box there. Now, when I think of mallponds, I think of these like really tiny bodies of water, but this one it's it's big, like, it's pretty significant, and it's got all kinds of fish in it, like pike, perch, roach and invasive or planted Wells catfish. So last spring, someone unidentified someone complained to the environmental agency about a fish eating ducks in front of innocent children. The agency then sent officers to the lake, who caught a twenty five pound catfish, which is not a very big wellspe and then relocated it to another lake. Ben Norrington, one of the fisheries officers involved, told reporters large fish have the potential to eat wildfowl, so we're pleased we could remove it, and invasive species like the Wells catfish pose a serious threat to native wildlife. Norrington was also quoted as saying it's not great for kids to see these large fish eating ducks, so we removed the catfish. Again. The catfish was not killed, but safely relocated to a different private fishing lake. And at first, I gotta say, this story just didn't make any sense to me, Like I was like, what is going on here? And let me explain why I'm so confused. Number one, I completely disagree with with Mr Norrington there. I think that's great. Had I been a young boy, Like if I was a young kid and I'm at the mall hanging out with my friends or my parents and I see a duck get munched by a fish, Dude, that would have made my year. I I'm right there with you. If I was out in the wild and this was happening in front of my kids, I'd be like, look, kids, it's those ducks. You may never see that again in your whole life. Like if I was, yeah, I mean that, first of all, I'd be super pumped, And second of all, I would be begging my parents to take me there every week with there without fishing gear, like I would have loved it all right, that's number one. Second, Like, I couldn't figure out how this made any sense from a conservation perspective, right. The stated goal there was that they're trying to protect native birds from this marauding road catfish, right right, How does relocating it solve the problem? Yep, They're just moving the fish to a different lake. Does like does that other lake not have birds? Do they not fly that? I don't think that's true? Well unless and then I don't know if you know the answer to this, but I mean there's a lot of private water in in Great Britain, Like, there's a lot of private lakes, pay lakes. There's not all this. Yeah, my guess would be that somebody who was like really pumped about having a wells catfish put that in a private lake. So my next quote comes from Tony Wignall, the guy who owns the lake where the supposed problem catfish got relocated. Tony told the angler's mail, which is it's it's one of the top fishing publications in the UK. He told them, I'm sure there must be bigger cats at lakeside as I doubt the one removed could have been quite big enough to have taken a duck. So even the guy who scored and the free catfish out of this, he doesn't think that the fish they caught and relocated was even the fish that was involved in the malings. Like, he doesn't think it had anything to do with it. I mean, he was happy to take the fish and put it in his private lake. But like, again, if the goal here is you're trying to protect native ducks or other wildfowl, it seems pretty clear that this isn't the solution, right, So I'm I'm scratching my head on this and I'm trying to figure out And then I found a photo that I think ties the whole thing together. And the photos of Ben Orrington and and the other fisheries biologists who went to deal with this situation, a guy named Tom Baird, And in this other photo they're collectively gripping and grinning with a big pike from that same day. And and to be fit, the photo actually looks a lot like that one we roasted from Mike Mancini, like they're kind of close. Uh. So here's what I realized. These officers were actually fishing, like with a rodd in line to remove this problem catfish, and they were clearly having a really good time. And that's the moment when like I was like, oh, I what's going on here? So all right, hear me out. Here's what I think happened. Some sensitive suburban parent takes their spawn out for a spring shopping trip. On their way to the mall, they stopped for a quick lookout across the lake and they see some ducks majestically paddling around. Just then, one of the beautiful ducks gets murdered. Said parent is incensed that they have to suffer such trauma when just trying to, you know, buy some stuff at the mall. I mean, this is a mall, not a nature documentary, right, So they called him a planet. No, those you get little warnings on those. So they call the environmental agency to complain, and a couple of fisheries officers are sitting in their cubicles and they see an opportunity. They can placate this concerned citizen and use the whole thing as an excuse to go fishing on the clock. And that is at the mall. At the mall pond, maybe you're not even allowed to fish, and the whole thing would have worked out, except the media got ahold of it, right, and a bunch of reporters showed up, and at that point the officers like they had to produce a catfish to hold up for the cameras so they can claim, like, we got it, the thread has been neutralized. Everything's fine. But then but then hold up. If they were then to kill the fish, then they'd catch hell from some animal rights group. So they had to they had to find a private pond where they could give the fish a new home, and then they had to spend some kind of halfway plausible story to make the whole thing seemed legit. That's my guess about how all this came together. Well, okay, refresh my memory, because that was a long story. Did the concerned parent actually witness a catfish eating the ducks or the ducks were just disappearing the cat fishing in the ducks? Yes, okay, so it wasn't a mistaken identity. It wasn't the giant pike in there eating the ducks. It was a catfish. Well, I mean, I'm not going to say that these people have the capacity to identify a fish. By the way, Well, that's true. We we've done stories about people that couldn't identify a giant sunfish ocean sunfish in here before. So no, But I I asked that because you know, you tied this to that story we had last week about the two blue cats. He said it was a on Wells. There's only a twenty five pound blue cat, which is a much much smaller mouth than what I mean. Wells have massive mouths. But I looked at I mean, I saw pictures of fish. It would be a stretch to get a full grown duck in there. I mean it could happen, but be a stretch. Yeah, I'm surprised that the guy who now owns the catfish doesn't think that was probably probably like ether more in there. I'll take them all, take every single one of them. That's exactly what he was saying. He was like, I don't think you guys solve any problems, but if you want to give me free catfish over well, I think it goes without saying. You have never um in the history of this podcast given me an easier transition, because we're gonna go from invasive catfish in the UK to invasive catfish right here in the USA. How about that. Furthermore, we're gonna talk flathead catfish, which are like super similar to Wells They're like damn near our Wells catfish. So this one's this one's kind of sort of local to me and of interest to me personally. And from the website of CBS Baltimore Headline, Cecil County man earns first ever Maryland state fishing record for invasive flathead catfish and this went down right after Christmas December. Angler Joshua Dixon Halt in this fifty seven pound fifty flathead while fishing from shore on the Susquehanna River near a boat ramp just north of the city of Havard or Grace, Okay. And he says it took him thirty minutes to reel this fish in, and he hooked it on his The story says zoom swim bait, and I'm just gonna assume that's my all time favorite zoom fluke is what they're actually talking about their powerful. It's powerful, lord um. But what that also tells me, regardless of the of the bait model, is he was not using tackle men for a fifty seven pound flathead, right. So that's impressive right there. And he even says in the story for the first for the first bit of the fight, he just thought he was snagging a tree. So I can picture, like the dude, you know, it's like walking backwards with your rod behind you, just pulling straight, going on, Yeah, exactly, point and pop it, trying to get unstuck, and all all of a sudden, this beastmaster just goes ballistic and he fights it for a half hour. But here is what's fascinating to me. As long as the Susquehanna is right, there's really not that much of it in Maryland, and of the roughly twenty five miles that are in Maryland, about half of them are below the Conna Wingo damn, which is the first of several major dams going up the Susquehanna. So where Dixon caught this fish is basically the last little bit of river before it dumps into the Chesapeake Bay. It's essentially the mouth of the river. And according to this story, for a flathead to qualify as a state record, it had to weigh a minimum of forty pounds. Uh. And the Susquehanna, dude, I know, it's rife with flatheads. They're invasive, huge problem. And in fact, one of the craziest nights of fishing of my life was on the Susquehanna a few falls ago. We literally could not get four rods in the water for hours, and I don't think we caught a fish under twenty pounds, and I think we had to over forty pounds, right, And this was this is fifty miles up river from where Dixon caught the fish and also behind several major dams. So you know, forty pounder in the river in general, it's not that uncommon, but I find it interesting that nobody until now has weighed in a forty plus pounder in Maryland waters right. And it doesn't mean they haven't been caught there. It could just mean that nobody's weighed one in there. And I might hear otherwise from listeners, but I've not heard of the waters below that last damn, the mouth of the river being a flathead hot spot, like stretches are upstream, you know, which it just makes you wonder, was this tank one that sort of slipped over the damn years ago and it's just been sitting, you know, getting fat in the title zone, or or they're more of these invasives in this part of the river than people realize. And to me it it caught my attention because it's one of those stories that kind of tweaks the curiosity, like those old folk tales of like a giant catfish or gar bass that lives below the damn and like somebody saw it once, you know, but nobody can ever catch it. Or you often hear that while there aren't maybe many of a particular species in tidal sections of a river, the ones that are there are really massive, which makes them even even more mysterious and elusive. Um, we see that here, we have the Passaic and Jersey. They say there's massive pike in the title section, but nobody's down there targeting them, so you know, nobody really knows. And final, like final note on this. People catch loads of flatheads on swim baits out here, have friends that just like knock them dead in the Susquehanna, the Delaware, the school and it has never happened to me, And I wanted to, you know what I'm saying, Like every time I'm hucking smallmouth lords and flathead water, I'm hoping it happens. Yet it never has. And this dude throws the old zoom in the in the middle of the winter from shore at a boat ramp and the tide zone and smacks at seven. So will you for like for like WALLYE or something. I don't know what he was fishing for. I don't remember because I read this story. I thought, I thought, I thought I read that I don't know if there are I've never fished there, so I don't know if they're in there. Well, I mean no, there's plenty of walleye in the Susquehanna, But again, like if you look at where he is, it's I wouldn't even think that would be a great walleye zone. We have walleye on the Delaware here, but you don't hear many people targeting them once you get down past the tideline, you know what I mean, Like the whole makeup of the river changes. No. I could be I could be totally wrong about that, but my memory of it was that he was like, how was that walleye fishing with my with my zoom lure? Yea, but I'm shocked knowing how many fish are in there, even with not that much Susquehanna and Maryland that there was no state record on the books. I mean, this is not a new thing. I mean like there have been giant flatheads in that river for a long time now. So that was when when I saw this story. That was the piece that I was like, Oh, not only is this like they didn't this guy didn't break a record, he created a record, and that just does it happen anymore? And I was like, Wow, that's a really interesting angle in a cool story. But I had nothing else to say about it. So I'm glad you picked it up because you have you actually know that fishery, and you actually have some things that you can round this out and turn into a whole story. All I had was like, well that's cool, but yeah, but that I'm doing the same thing. I just like, you know, filled it with more work. I basically just did what you did. I just think it's cool, and I just I want to I want to back up on because you said, like they say that they're flatheads over here, but nobody rens. They say they're big pike and lower pace, but nobody really knows. Don't they do shocking surveys. No, not not of not of the passaic. They don't. I can't. I can't speak of you know, for for all the fisheries that would would tie into that. But you know, it's obviously it's a very East Coast thing. But it's true if you look at a lot of the major rivers that have title zones, you know, whatever their big thing is flatheads, pike. Um, you know that there's some amount that would naturally make it over the dam or go hang out in the lower tidal reaches. But because now you're in water where they're they're less easy to target because the rivers also tend to be wide. They're right like where we're talking about where he caught this on the Susquehanna. I mean, damn, dude, it's almost a mile wide, you know. I mean like it's it's not a it's not like like a tiny little thing coming out. So maybe in some places they do, but like, yeah, that's like a thing my whole life here. Like even freshwater species that start to mingle in the brackish areas, it's like, oh man, there's some big ones in there. But snakeheads same thing I've I've heard tales of, Like you want a giant snakehead, you fish the brackish water down here. But yeah, it's so wide and there's so much of it's like where do you start. It's much harder in those areas often to pinpoint like where do I even begin? So it adds like a lot of mystery if you're a tidal river guy. Man, I'm really glad you did cover that. And I thought there would be the answer that was like don't they don't they shocked? But no, I guess that's not that's something that happens here, but it doesn't happen every and I make about other other rivers, or it's a possibility that a million people who target flatheads in that piece of the river are just going damn, dude, shut shut, Oh, I hate you so sorry if that's the case, as you we're making it worse alright. So for the second story, I'm gonna talk about grailing. So you and I have swapped grailing stories in the past, and and I know that we both agree that these are just they're beautiful and they're they're they're interesting fish for anybody who's anybody's confused right now. Grailing are a cousin of trout and salmon that live in high latitude rivers and lakes across Europe and North America. They're found in Alaska, Siberia, and parts of Canada, and they were they were once very common in the Upper Missouri River system as well as various different places in Michigan, like those are the kind of the two places in the lower forty eight they used to be. And they're shaped like a trout or a white fish. They've got that that same fins structure and cylindrical body. But grailing, man, they have this this such a unique coloring. They're just they're iridescent right there. They're like they're kind of like a gun metal gray with with a purple sheen and the sparse black spotting and kind of black lines offsetting the whole thing. But the physical attribute that really defines grailing is their massive dorsal fin. It just it raises way up off their backs, and it's blue and green and purple and sometimes fringed red or orange. They kind of looked like a cross between a mountain whitefish and a sail fish if I had to if I had to describe them that way, um, if I had to give give examples, if you watched the fur Hat Ice Tour on on the YouTube's then you saw cal catch one in episode two. And like I said, they used to be common in certain parts of Lower forty eight, but now they're pretty much gone. Grailing haven't been in Michigan for over a century. Back in the late eight hundreds, grailing defied mind sport fishing in Michigan, Like anglers flocked to places like the Upper Para Marquette just to catch grailing. And we're not talking like twenty fish days. We're talking two hundred fish days it was loaded. And yeah, which is kind of to say that the grailing sort of fit the stereotype that many of us have about models, right, They're they're very attractive, but they're not known for a for a dazzling intellect, shall we say, like, that's what's so great about him? Though, I know, I know, dude, and and and when I was guiding in Alaska, because we had tons of them up there, Like if you had clients that were just they just couldn't get it done, like they were totally inept, you'd go catch grailing and it didn't matter. You could stand there just dragging a bare hook in the water and you'd catch grailing if you're in the right spot. And that that quality of them is part of what led to their downfall in Michigan. Over harvest combined with habitat degradation from logging and then the introduction of highly aggressive and competitive and rainbow and brown trout just wiped them out. And it happened fast, like they were everywhere and then they were gone. And again we're talking well over a hundred years ago that this happened, and so people have been trying to re establish grailing populations in Michigan since nineteen thirty six without any demonstrated success at all. Zero And some people would argue it's time to give up, like we gave it the old college try and if we haven't figured it out in eighty years, it's probably not gonna happen. But I am not one of those people. Uh, And and neither are the fisheries biologists who work and and run the hatchery and Marquette Michigan. They think they may have found a way to reintroduce these fish that might actually work. Like in the past biologists would would Uh, they would just take grailing of different sizes like they played with different size grailing and just dump them in the rivers and hope they came back. But then they wouldn't just disappear. And so the theory goes that grailing imprints so strongly on the places where they hatch that they will not spawn anywhere else. Right, So if you raise a grailing in a hatchery, it doesn't matter to what size, and then you put it in a stream, it just won't reproduce. It can't figure it out again, not that smart because it can never get back to the place where it was hatched. So it just doesn't I have a question about that that you may address. I may or may not. I may not have the answer. Are they raising them in the water from the streams? They're putting them in? Here we go. So the researchers are borrowing a technique that was actually pioneered here in Montana, and I have some follow up. We have time for that. Uh. And so what they do is they place fertilized eggs in buckets inside streams, and the buckets have holes cut in them in the up and downstream sides so the water can flow through, and they have removable mesh to keep the eggs in and predators out. And once the eggs hatch, researchers just pull out the mesh. The tiny fish swim out of the streams, fully imprinted on their home river and as close to wild as hatchery fish can possibly get. Now, it's gonna be a few years before we know if this works because because they had to bring in grailing from Alaska to start the broodstock in the hatchery, and so once they have a healthy and genetically diverse broodstock, then they'll collect eggs that are you know, that are already fertilized, and they'll plant them in wild streams and rivers and wait to see if those fish mature and and start spawning on their own. So success Like, whether or not this works, it's it's a long way off. But if it does work, like we're talking about re establishing a game fish that's been gone since Grover Cleveland was in office. I mean, what, we can't really harken back to good old Grover very often, and we're gonna get back to those days. So I mean, I don't know, but I'm hopeful on this one. I hope this one works. I really do. I think it would be amazing. I I love grailing right. In fact, the last time I fish from a couple of summers ago um it was up in Fairbanks, and I asked the guy. I was like, can I throw a mouse the whole time? Like, well, they eat that? And he was like yeah, and that's what I did, and they will. Literally it doesn't really matter. But so I interjected there with the water question, I have to say, man, why is it taken this long to try this technique? And look, I'm not super well versed in the whole, but I knew that that was a thing that happened, because I feel like that technique has been happening a lot of other places in the country for like decades. That's just what you do. Like, I'm pretty sure it's relatively new, and I can only speak to that because an ex girlfriend of mine, as part of her PhD work, uh, was one of the people who first used that technique out here in Montana West Slope cutthroat. And the reason that it hasn't been done is because it's incredibly incredibly hard, like it it It requires a lot of work. It's one thing to just raise little fish in a hatchery, take them someplace and dump them and walking away. Yea. In this you gotta like set up these rearing stations up in high mountain streams or other places. You gotta build them, you gotta monitor them, you gotta keep going back in there. Like it's a lot of work, and you have to carry all that stuff depending on where you are, sometimes like into the back country. So the reason why it's it hasn't been done before, I'm guessing is because it's really expensive and really hard. Yeah. Well, and then again that's my ignorance, right, I thought that was like a common thing. I don't know the ins and outs, but thinking back to it, I actually think we talked here once about me catching tiny Atlantic salmon smolts in Connecticut, and I'm I'm fairly certain they did the same thing with that program. They tried to raise them in that water, and that that didn't work out super hot either. So I mean, I'd like to see this work, but how much does the sporting community benefit from it? I feel like at this point it's just sort of us going like, oh man, we really screwed that one up. They were always here, so we want to have them back. But you know, then what do we do with regulation on them? Like up in Alaska? The first time I ever fished in Alaska, I caught one and I like treated it like gold and then found out by the end of the trip that like, now there's so many of them you can kill like twenty a day, like nobody nobody cares, like they eat them and it's they're delicious. Yeah, you can kill the gil you can't. You can't kill the rainbows, but you can kill the grailing in the Bristol Bay area exactly. So you know, then then what do we do with them? Like, you know, do you think that they'll they'll be like a draw for that or is this just more to to to re establish what was? I think it's more of the ladder um. I think your question about like does this benefit the sporting community, You're you're asking if the even the fishing community is is a monolith and in agreement. And the answer to that is no, we aren't. Some people are like, screw it, I prefer brown trout and steelhead. I don't care if their native put all your money into them, right, and and are those people wrong. I'm not gonna say they're wrong, but those fish didn't used to be there, and the right right exactly like, and I'm not gonna I'm not trying to wait into that particular argument like well are we trying to go back to something doesn't exist? I'm merely saying for me, I think this is an iconic and interesting fish. I hope this works. And unless they have another really good idea, maybe this should. Maybe we move on after this. I don't know, but I can say that this technique has worked with with West Slope cut throat here in Montana, So for whatever that's worth. Yeah, And and we'll move on from it. But I mean that's the other thing to a lot of these rivers that they're talking about in Michigan, in particular, when those grailing we're thriving didn't have Pacific salmon and steelhead running up them either, you know, so you also have to factor in that there rivers ain't what they were and in old grovers or not. I have not much of a transition other than I took a note here that you you refer to them as gun metal gray, which kind of transitions in a weird way into this quirky one from the website of Live science dot com. The headline sucked me right in and it is eight times Nature was totally metal. Oh my gosh, Nature's metal has become part of like the cultural conversation on Instagram account has changed anyway, go ahead, And the funniest thing to me about this is that this this list actually in a way reflects just how shitty was, because there are some really cool things in here that I don't recall hearing a peep about, probably because there was a lot more other sucky, less cool ship like clogging up the news all year, um. But just to rattle off few, there was a dazzling show of lightning shooting out of a volcano in the Philippines, a species of cannibalistic dinosaur uncovered, and the discovery of a fossil depicting a squid and a fish locked in a death match. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, so but the one that grabbed me, which I have no recollection of whatsoever, was slugged in the story an eel goes alien and we suck at our job. Because this this happened in Delaware just this past November, and I don't remember seeing this at all. An amateur photographer captured this series of photos of a great blue heron with what they originally thought was a quote snake eel, which isn't a real thing, and they figured that out later too, But they thought it was a snake eel biting and latched onto the bird's upper chest slash lower neck region. Uh. And apparently this heron was flying and walking around completely unbothered by a pretty damn big eel dangling from its chest, while upon further study, it turned out to be an American eel duck, because there's no such thing as a snake heel that had burst through the chest cavity of the bird. In other words, the photo of me right right. So they originally thought the head was grabbing the chest, it was attached by the tail. The head end was hanging down. Uh, and it was stuck and it looks exact actually like a chess burster from the Aliens Total movie franchise, right. Uh. And it seems the eel was dead and again the bird was unfaced. There's a bunch of shots of this, and no one is sure what happened to the bird. But I'd love to know the scenario because American eels they don't exactly have teeth like a more, but they do have teeth and they are very widely So I wonder like, did this heron grab the eel head first and did it like literally nibble a hole in its torso while being swallowed or did it exploit a small hole the bird already had from another injury. Um, this is actually a pretty big food item for a heron. It's I mean, it's a big heel. It's it's not tiny, but regardless, it's it's freaking disturbing. Like the shots are really disturbing. Um, So I'll throw a shot of that in Today's instant story. But that's really it. That's all I got. I just I don't know how we missed that one, and it's it's probably one of the most disturbing nature images I've ever seen. Yeah, that that shot is crazy, and I don't know how we missed either. We we do suck at our jobs, particular least since you know, I did a bunch of coverage on American needles, both on the show and on the website, and I love those things in the sense that I think they're just really interesting, although creepy and alien looking. So check that one out. And if anybody has the answer or figures out the answer to what did happen there? I really want to know. Yeah, we have Christmas tree people who chime in, right, we gotta have some bird people, you know what I mean? But how the heron is so unfazed as it seems to be and it's flying around it it's got a giant eel hanging out of its neck? So phil giant eels hanging out of necks? Okay? Uh? What? What? What more? Fishing scaring children? Why? Why woul't we come to the end of this even though we just eating fish? That's right, record Catfish. We always come to the end of news and even though we've just done all this, like have a hard time recalling what the hell we just talked about. Uh, Phil, you were probably listening though, so we'll hear what Phil asked to say and then move on to another epic Smooth Moves. Miles Nulty like the nick variety. Wow, I got it, um Miles. Considering you say your own name at the top of every podcast, and I have heard every podcast. This is the epitome of embarrassment. You're one of my favorite colleagues. So I just want to say from the bottom of my heart that I apologize and guess what, You're the winner. Now. If you're asking yourself if you really earned this, or if it's just my way of saying sorry, don't worry about it. Why Why Welcome back to Smooth Moves. It's the part of the show where we call up guides and outfitters and charter captains and you know, people who make their living and earn their beer money taking other people fishing, and we get to tell us some kind of ridiculous story about something the clients have done. Today. We have my good friend Hillary Hutchinson, who I don't get to see very often except in these weird little fake zoom like spaces. But uh, but one of these days again we will go fishing. Hillary. How's it going. It's going great. Yeah, I can't wait for that time. I would love to have you on the boat soon. Oh man, how's how's your guide season? It was weird, It was sooner weird. It was great. Um yeah, it was weird because in the beginning it was so bizarre, like there were I think one day, I had twenty three cancelations in one day, um, in like April for June, so basically all of j was just canceled. Yeah, because yeah, I'm up here at Glacier National Park and they had announced that the park wasn't going to open at the time they thought it was gonna open. So yeah, twenty three cancelations in one day and just like freaking out. But then suddenly everybody rediscovered the outdoors, I guess, and suddenly, oh yeah I have so it like all filled like within the next day. So it was like super high high and low low and like super weird. So then from then on it's been every single day all of June. Um, July, August, September, October has been busier than ever, so super strange and just weird COVID stuff all summer long, you know. So, I mean that sounds like the perfect storm of different factors coming together to set you up for some strange occurrences, which is why you're here to tell us about one of those strange occurrences. So let it lay it on us. What do you got for the for the smooth move? I don't know how long this trends. I mean, it's trend has been going on forever and ever and ever, but it's a growing trend of having like these um corporate execs get sent out to go fly fishing to somehow relieve a bunch of stress. Like their board was like, you are on the verge of killing people, we have to like send you to Fontana they fly fishing, and they they see fly fishing is like something it's going to chill them out or something that's gonna, you know, make them calm. I think they think of it as like some serene, peaceful kind of thing. Well as everybody knows, like if you've never done this before and you're from like Manhattan and haven't been like out West at all, you're getting thrown to the wolves. This has been happening, you know, a fair amount a lot where we get these people who are highly stressed, and I get this woman and she is the most amazing, remarkable woman of all time. I mean, she is fabulous. She is like was a National Merit Scholar, Rhodes Scholar from the University of Oxford. She's like a Wall Street exec. She's a multimillionaire. She is like the consummate banquisher. She is the ruler of all Wall Street. She's just this fantastic and I am in awe. She's like only twenty eight years old. She's super fit, she's gorgeous, the most beautiful woman I have ever seen, and she's got this like aura of just like ruling the world. And also very nice. She was very cool. She brought like this super high end bourbon for me, and she's like, you know, at one point she smoked a cigar and she was wrapped like she was the coolest, smartest, millionaire, most fantastic person ever. And she was witty, funny. She caught onto fishing, she fished her ass off. She was fantastic in every way, and it was super weird because she's feeding me like, you know, this bourbon, and she's like drinking cappuccino and she's like and I'm drinking water, and I'm like, I gotta pee. So I kept having to pull over, say do you need potty breaks? She's like, no, I'm good. So I'd go off into the woods, go pee, come back. We go down the river. She's fishing, she's amazing. I'm in awe and there's like light shining all around her. And I'd be like, I gotta pee, and I'd pull over to get off side of the boat. Go pee. Do you have to be Nope, she didn't have pe. And the whole time, I'm like Scotch, she don't even have to pee. She's drinking bourbon, she's drinking coffee, she's drinking water. She didn't pe all day long. No pee from this woman. She's not paying at all, And I'm like, amazing. So she must have been so dehydrated. Her body is absorbing all of the liquids as I'm getting off the boat every five minut So then end of the trip and we get to take out and there's porta potty at the takeout. She finally gets off the boat, goes with porta potty, and I was like, oh, she really held it all day long, after drinking this whiskey, after drinking all this water, coffee, everything, I'm like super impressed. She's in there for two seconds. She comes back with plastic grocery sack, hands it to me, asked me to throw it away. No big deal. We get to the company and she gets in her fancy car. She gave me a giant tip. We exchange the information. She I was just like, oh my gosh, I love you. You're the best person ever. And then I go to clean up my trip and I'm taking out the trash and I see this like garbage bag she had given me to throw away. And I don't know why. I can't just look the other way, but I had to look in the bag depends adult diaper, all the fullest of full depends. And this girl, she was like my idol in every way. She was just the coolest chick ever, and all day long, she was pissing her pants all day long. And here I am the total sucker, like she had to me she was. And I think, I don't know if like there's like a blog went out and like Manhattan Outdoors or something like that. That was this hack, like go out west Peter pants. You know, Um, but I've heard of this exact story almost exactly the same, where like some corporate exact comes out and they don't want to be in the woods and that's their hat. They're using adult diapers. And this is not to say that it is a bad thing to use depends. You know, lots of people wear them. This was just so unexpected from this particular demographic that blew my mind. Blew my mind. She doesn't have an incontinence problem. This was a choice. Yeah, yeah, so you think this was almost like a hack, Like there was a memo like for city folk going out there, like if you don't want to lower yourself to urinating in the woods, throw on some depends, right, Or if they're afraid of you know, bears are like how do you even do it? What? What do you do? Like if if that's just like, you know, a big mystery and something they don't want to have to deal with, you know. I mean I was thinking the same thing, like, well, god, if I have to go to Manhattan and go on the subway and maybe I'll just wear depends like I would rather. I would rather wear depends. Having worked in Manhattan for many years, I would much rather where it depends than than use the restrooms at say Penn Station. That's what I'm talking. I've been in there, and I've seen some things that you don't you can't un and she's probably not expecting that I would look in there and I mean this this diaper was heavy, heavy, and I'm I don't, I mean, because I really like this person. I'm not sure if it was number one or number two, but it made me think. It made me think throughout the day. I'm like, maybe I thought she was laughing at my jokes. She was actually just taking a giant dult. I feel like if we were going to turn that into an instructional, it would have to be titled how to soil yourself with class and Dignity. Thanks, It's like, crap my pants. I love our low humor um speaking of class of dignity. Trying to salvage this one, Joe is gonna gonna close the gap here for us, bringing the show full circle back to those trout magnets and uh and this one is by request, do you have that rent? Yes it is. This is our first end of the line by listener request. And what prompted um the dirt bag comment was a bunch of social media posts from earlier this winner of trout right, that I was catching on trout magnets, which I love, and I had an outpouring of request for a trout magnet and the line segment, and it seems many people are in the know on this lore. I'm many others are magnet curious or have not harnessed their full power, such as Miles here. So listen up, because I'm about to scool you on why the trout magnet could be the glue okay that locks together the hands of fly and conventional trout bums as they sing Heal the World. Well, that's not loud enough. The trout magnet is the brainchild of Jeff Smith and Todd Garner, two buds from West Virginia that started tinkering with bait making in Jeff's garage in the Es, eventually forming the company Leland's Loures. Now. During that tinkering, a pivotal piece of kid emerged a plastic mold designed to make cake decorations. It was Smith who figured out that he could also use this mold with soft plastic, and what he ended up creating was the earliest version of the trout magnet, which he'd spend the next few years refining into what many consider the most oton versatile trout lawer ever made. Now it was unleashed upon the masses thanks to a fateful encounter with a Walmart big shot that Jeff took fishing and who subsequently got to witness the power of the magnet firsthand. So what is this mythical trout magnet. In simplest terms, it's a soft plastic meal worm. The body is segmented, slightly tapered, It features a split tail, and measures just a hair over an inch. By the way, they're not sented. Okay, this is not power bait. This little fake meal worm, however, is pretty worthless without its unique head. Trout magnets come with itty bitty one ounced jig heads that East Coasters might recognize as tiny baby shad darts. The head is conical, but sliced off diagonally at the front to create a sloping face. When the head and body harmonize, Smith and Garner's genius reveal itself unlike other jigs, say a curly tail grub or a hair jig that will always fall nose down. A trout magnet falls horizontally or flat, as fishing people like to say, when paired with a tiny float. It also hangs perfectly horizontally below it, showing off its full profile at all times. Now, finally, that sloped jighead face naturally deflects water, which makes a trout magnet most effective when you do nothing at all with it. Whenever I post a shot of a mag in a trout's face, people ask me how you work in that thing, man, and the answer is I'm not. Now, I've had great success casting a trout magnet by itself on an ultra light rod and twitching it back. That works very well, But that's not really how these lures were designed to be fished. Your job is just to create a drag free drift, letting your little trout magnet float slip down a seam or through pool without dragging. The current does the rest pushing on that shad dart head, making the lower twitch quiver and flash ever so slightly as it rides down the lane, and there is nary a trout or greatly steelhead, by the way, that can resist when the presentation is right. So if you just said to yourself, oh, it's just nymphing with a spinning rod, you'd be correct, which is why my blood boils when I get looks of shame from fly guys or worse, your o nymphs. Okay, I got many of these looks just a few weeks ago on what is arguably in New Jersey's most famed piece of trout conservation water. Euro nymphing is trout magnet fishing without a spinning rod. Okay, I mean our strike indicators were the same size, and both of our reels were spooled with straight moto as far as I'm concerned, yet I was still the assholes, somehow not worthy of a nod or a hello as we cross paths on a river trail. But you know why that's okay, because there was a time in my life when I was that guy too, And then I got over myself and realized I didn't really care how I was catching trout anymore, as long as I was catching them, even if that meant putting a trout magnet on a fly rod, which to me, frankly isn't dirty because it weighs as much as a big stone fly nymph and is made from pretty much the same material as a squirmy wormy, which most people seem to accept as flies. Luckily, though, trout magnets are available in a huge amount of colors, many of which match natural aquatic forage. I mean, hell, you can even opt for a matte black jighead so you don't run the risk of being called a cheater by incorporating flash. Now, if I'm being totally honest these days, if I am forced into a situation where nymph ng is the smartest or only game in town, particularly in the winter around here in the Northeast, I just assume fishing trout magnet on a spinning rod. And if I'm fishing a trout magnet on a spinning rod, it's usually classic meal worm, gold stocker, rainbows, crush, hot, pink, peach and red are good too, but then wild buttery browns love that gold baby. Final note, trout magnets are also dirt cheap. For ten bucks, you can square yourself a hundred piece of kit, including seven of the most productive body colors and a selection of those shad dart jigheads in all the colors available. Ten bucks roughly buys five nymphs, give or take just saying the kit comes in a sleek little box that takes up very little room in your flambeaux like four tackle bag, or it can be easily and discreetly concealed in a Sims freestone ambidextrous fishing sling pack. Well, that just about concludes our peace, harmony and together in this episode. If you're now thinking about shaving your head, wearing flowing robes and handing out inspirational pamphlets at the airport, make sure to include the following points. Mike, I can really love zebra muscles. Yes, Tom Rosenbauer is secretly judging your stupid questions. Trout magnets work exactly as advertised. And Hillary Hutchinson's idol peas or pants. If petting your pants is cool, consider me. Miles Davis, thanks for spending some time with us, as always, keeps sending those bar nominations, salban items, awkward photos all the other things we ask you for to bent at the meat eator dot com. Tell us would you like tell us what you hate? Tell us what we got wrong, because that happens sometimes and just you know, how you doing. Yeah, we appreciate each and every one of you degenerates, so long as you're not the person leaving empty worm containers on the bank of my favorite trout hole, because that guy

Save this episode