00:00:00 Speaker 1: M Cumberland Gap. Was that so important because coming from the Eastern colonies, from the Carolina's, from Tennessee, that was the way. It was a hard thing to go do and they knew that to do it, to try to pull it off, they knew it was risky. They knew it was a major undertaking. You had to scout it, you had the plan. It was like a thing. On this episode of the Beargrease Podcast, were on part two of our series on the Incredible Life of the American Backwoodsman Daniel Boone. We're gonna dive in deep, like over your head deep into a topographic feature in the Appalachian Mountains that was a major player in the identity of Old d Boone and America. We're talking about the Cumberland Gap. We'll interview to New York Times best selling off there's some Boone experts, Stephen Ronnella and Robert Morgan, will nerd out with the geologist, will talk about the potential historical revision of Boone. And lastly we'll talk with a member of the Cherokee Nation and hear his perspective on the Old Gap. The path is rough, an American identity is at stake. You're not gonna wanna miss this one, and do me a favor, give yourself a pop quiz. What do you know about the Cumberland Gap. I don't know. Maybe the weather is nicer, maybe there's more games, and it gets rewarded because it is. Boy, it's like people moving because they just gotta know, they gotta go see. My name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. Presented by f HF gear, American made, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore back Daniel Boone's passing through the Cumberland Gap has been mythologized in American culture. They've written songs about it, made movies, written poems, and made art. I've got the reprint of the famous eighteen fifty two painting by George Bingham in My House. It depicts Boone leading his family in a group of settlers through the rugged Gap. The mountains around him are dark and ominous, but beautiful white bathes Boon's figure, making him look almost angelic. To understand Dan Boone, We've got to understand the Cumberland Gap. Okay. Tell me everything you know about the Cumberland Gap. Okay, Well, that will not take very long. The only thing I know about the Cumberland Gap is that folk musicians like to write about it in their songs. Where are you from? So, do you have a sense of where the Cumberland Gap is in relation to Michigan? I know it is South Michigan. Tell me everything you know about the Cumberland Gap, the Cumberland Gap. Nothing, Cumberland Gap, Cumberland Gap. I want to say, it's somewhere in the wild, wild West. I want to say, maybe there's a grocery store. I want to say a Cumberland Grab grocery store. That's all I got. Hey, guys, tell me everything you know. We'll start with you. Everything you know about the Cumberland Gap. Is that like a fault line or something? I don't know. You tell me, I don't know. I think I've heared the Cumberland Gap. Do you know what? I don't know what it is? You don't know anything about the Cumberland Gap. I feel like if you mentioned it, I would, but I don't know. I can't think. Come on, there's one more guy standing. I'm sorry, I don't know. I was struck out on the Cumberland Gap. This is embarrassing. Josh Landbridge spilmmaker, do you know anything about the Cumberland Gap? The Cumberland Gap, I know is in some songs. I know that there is a gap named after General Cumberland. He had quite a mustache if I remember, Are you being serious? How do you know that you just made that up? It's not too far from the truth, because the Cumberland Gap was named after the Duke of Cumberland. Dead serious. He probably had a nice mustache. That song is called Cumberland Gap. It's been played by a string band out of Ohio called the Wayfarers. I'm continuing to build on the assumption that the average American doesn't know much about Daniel Boone, and we're exploring how despite that, this backwoodsman's influence on the American worldview was notable. In Part one, we learned that archetypes are the mechanism of this powerful culture building weapon. They deliver a value system through branding around the lives of our heroes or villains. After some time, the values remain, but the original life the host is often forgotten. And this is just the point. Daniel Boone did stuff that captured the attention of America and the world in a vulnerable time period when we were looking for identity. The prime of his life was in the seventeen seventies, a time when many of our heroes were birth and old. Dan stepped up to the plate and, in true Americana fashion, became a representative man, the courageous explorer, engaging and thriving in the wilderness and bringing civilization with him. He delivered parts of the American dream to America. I'll point out that this was a new identity for planet Earth, at least this version of it, and it had ravish appeal. In Part one, we left the Burgaras podcast world in a massive cliffhanger, with Daniel Boone and John Finley finding the Cumberland Gap and going into the frontier of Kentucky in seventeen sixty nine. We're gonna nerd out on the Cumberland Gap and we'll hear first hand from Boone what happened on that first trip into Kentucky. Well sort of, it's complicated, but there's a bigger question at hand. Why were they risking life and limb to get into Kentucky? And an even bigger question is this, why is there this deep history of human geographic dispersion. Old Steve ronnella meet eater, has something to say about this. I introd him up right on part one, and he's got all the street cred or should I say backwoods cred. He's a New York Times bestselling author, a hunter, and a noted boon expert. Here's Steve. There's a kind of a theory of human movement around the earth where or shouldn't say a theory. Way to imagine human movement around the earth so often is that it's you're propelled by warfare and starvation, human migrations under dear rest. So with people, you know, in the nineteen thirties, right, you have Jews escaping Europe, you know, and maybe coming trying to escape the coming holocaust and get to the United States, or just you know, different things like migrations in Ethiopia from famine and that, and that moves people. There's also this this aspect of that it has been just driven by curiosity. Human migrations into the New World. Are human migrations into the Western hemisphere, you can't really look at and explain it like that. They were being pushed along by warfare, being pushed along by overpopulation. They were moving from like wilderness, like a wilderness setting, to a wilderness setting, oftentimes across the tremendous hurdles, probably crossing ice sheets, crossing glaciers that are coming down valleys. You have no idea, no one's ever been there before. You, you have no idea what's on the other side of the glacier, if anything, But for whatever reason, you gotta go look. And there's a practical aspect, like I don't know, maybe the weather is nicer, maybe there's more game, and it gets rewarded because it is. But it's like people moving because they just got to know. They gotta go see. Is it dangerous? Was it dangerous across a glacier when you had never met or talked to or heard about anybody who had ever lived south there before. As far as you, you're just going into the absolute unknown, but you're dying to know. And I think that you, like, you can't ignore that aspect of what that must have seemed like to guys. Sure, Boone's like a market hunter, he hunts hides for a living, but the god there has to have been an enormous amount of curiosity about it. The reason it's so safe to assume that is because the Cumberland Gap was a very literal for them, like a very literal pathway into a relatively untapped hunting ground. These guys were hunting stuff that have been hunted by people prior to them. They made a living off it. Here's a place to go where the Euro Americans, like your peers, haven't tapped it out yet. It's supposed to be loaded with buffalo, loaded with deer, loaded without, loaded with beaver. So it's like, yeah, man, you go there and make a lot of money. But think about how we now feel like still today, when we're not tied to the market incentives. We still dream about and talk about the secret spots, the secret hunting places that haven't been tapped out. So it's like, to them, was this literal gap that you could use to get into the good hunting ground. But for us, it's like, you can just get it. It works perfectly well as nothing but a metaphor for like a passage, like a keyhole that you go through that brings you into like the dream landscape upon which you live your life. I think that's why we still sit around here talking about it today. It had to have existed in both ways. To Boon, it had to exist as a literal thing like, no, there's this big mountain. It's really hard to get through. You can't really get over there, but there's a way to do it. Okay, that's cool. But also like that curiosity element was there too, Man, it was both. Do you think that is that's deep inside of us as humans at like a d N A granular level. Oh, I mean it has to be, man, I mean it's so hard to understand like how that stuff manifest But you put it this way if you want to explain, like, well, I would it be that way? Why are humans like that? Because it's rewarded. It's rewarded, there has been. You may die, yeah, but but you may get a big reward. You might also just if you imagine like as a species, like moving or moving across landscape, going to new places. There's a danger to it, but imagine the reward that you get into a place where you have unlimited access to land, you have unlimited access to game, You're able to produce many children and have place for them to stick around. Like there's an advantage too being out on the at like being making the discoveries and finding things another way to look at them. And it kind of like almost defies Like you know, it's so hard to imagine, but imagine the first Polynesians who were rewarded with landing in Hawaii just they were just heading out on big blue Ocean's like, oh, here's a giant land mass that no one lives on, and we'll now have like st angering population growth and established this whole new culture on this untapped landscape that we don't need to fight to get right. It's like it is an enormous reward. Or then you have all the people that probably sailed off into the South Pacific never to be seen again and died to thirst. So do you think or you get a big island there seems to be and I think we would see this still inside of humanity today manifested in different ways. But there are people like Boon that push the edge and they're there are settlers. There are people that stay where they're at and they find gratification for life in insecurity and staying safe. There's much to be said for the latter, But then there's also there's much reward for those who have this wandered list and that defined Boone's lot, defined his life. Human movement implies that humans have to deal with the actual topography of the Earth. I think we need to understand topographically what a gap is. I know just the guy to talk with. Dr Greg Dumont is the geology professor at the University of Arkansas. I'm interested in understanding the geologic history of this gap that helped define Boone's life and build an empire, and if why the gap sits almost slap on the spot where Virginia, Tennessee Kentucky touch. However, most of the actual mountain pass is in Virginia. Meet Dr Dumont. Dr Dumont, I am trying to understand two things what a gap is from a geologic standpoint, because we throw out this term a gap, the Cumberland Gap, in such a way that we just assumed that everybody knows what that is. So I want to understand what a gap is is. But then the second thing I want to understand is why the Cumberland Gap, even from a topographic perspective, was so special. Talk to me about like how a gap would be formed in the Appalachian Mountains. Well, gaps throughout any sort of mountain belt across the world are sort of a product of erosion of rock that's been uplifted to make the mountain in the first place, and erosion works preferentially, for example, on the rocks that are weakest, so like a shield versus the granite. Uh. If there are places where the mountains or rocks have been fractured, you might have faults that slid and they introduce a place where erosion can can happen and create that notch or gap that would allow people to pass through it. Other places, like if you were in the Himalayas, you'd have glaciers that are creating some of those notches that you could pass over. And the term notch gap pass applies universally. You know, you can look across the US and the rockies up in Canada in the Appalachians and see similar features and not all of them are caused by the same things. The Appalachians were the product of several mountain building events, But one that was really prominent is what's called the alleghany in orogeny. When you take continental crust and other material and you collide it together to make a mountain belt, you end up producing faults where some rocks slide up on top of another. In the Pine Mountain Thrust is the main structure that brings part of the Appalachians up on top of the adjacent rock. But then there are other faults. You know, everyone's familiar with the San Andrea's fault for example, and in that case, rocks are actually sliding past each other on a very steep fault, like uh Los Angeles is now creeping towards San Francisco, for example. And the fall that's unique in the Cumberland Gap is kind of like that. It's a steep fault where rocks have slid past each other, called the Rocky Face fault. And if you didn't have the juxtaposition of the Pine Mountain Thrust and the Rocky Face fault where they sit and intersect each other, it seems conceivable you wouldn't really had a gap. Really, So there's two different major forces working together that created to yeah, two faults that occur right in that vicinity that helped create the gap. And we talked about earlier how the rock type matters to and uh, some of the high ground that's held up along the ridges is a very resistant sandstone conglomerate rock, and so it helps to have rocks that are more resistant weathering. What kind of map would you call this? So you got pulled up here. So this is what's called a digital elevation model, and it's basically a three dimensional representation of what hunters would see as a topographic map that I don't know if anybody knows about this, but there is a huge impact creater that is just to the south west of what you're talking about. Is that a natural like there? It's well, I know it's uh not a league it is. So here's the topographic map and you can see it's a depression. So he's let me describe to you what I'm seeing. He's he's pointing at an impact crater which looks like, I mean, like an asteroid or something hit there. Is that right? That is what the current thinking is that here's a geologic map and you can see it's got this circular shape to it, and there is uh, pretty decent evidence that post deposition of these rocks and the Appalachian and rogen e something smack down and apparently this is one of the few places where coal is mined within an impact creator. Yeah. Geologists call these impact creators astro bleams. Daniel Boone had three interesting structures to negotiate along with all of the Native Americans prior to him and everybody trying to make the big trip across the Appalachians. Two intersecting faults, and an astro blam where an asteroid hit aided in forming the Cumberland Gap. I like connecting human history to grand things like mountain building that we have absolutely no control over but inflict a massive control on us. The Cumberland Gap is the biggest and best gap for a hundred miles in either direction, and forces above and below the earth helped make it that way. It's wild because no gap in the world has been more critical in building an empire than the Cumberland Gap. The gap is actually pretty new to people of European descent, but Native Americans have used it since before recorded history, and they call that the warriors Path or at the woman Ee. This gap connected the Iroquois Confederacy and the Cherokees in the South. The first recorded account of Europeans going through the Cumberland Gap dates back to the sixteen seventies, but Dr Thomas Walker officially named the gap it's European name anyway, in the seventeen fifties. Wild and ironic, this American gap was named after a straight up English chump, the Duke of Cumberland, because of his recent military escapade. And wouldn't you know it, they named the whole stinking Mountain range after this man, who never set foot in North America. Oh the injustice. The Shawnee, however, called the range was Oto, which means mountains where the deer are plentiful. Now I can get behind that. Dr Walker was a medical doctor, a land speculator in a woodsman who took good notes of his seventeen fifty travels into Kentucky. They hauled a pack of bear hounds with him and ate a lot of bear meat. Here's a couple of wild stories. One of his men got bit on the knee by a bear. Pretty unfortunate. Walker's horse got snake bit on the nose and he rubbed it with bear grease to help cure it not kidding. It's in his journal. Walker recorded killing thirteen buffaloes, eight elk, fifty three bear, twenty deer, four geese, hundred and fifty turkeys on their five month trip, and Walker's men built the first log cabin constructed by white men in Kentucky. It was no doubt quite the trip, but very few remember Dr Walker's name, but they do remember Boone, who crossed the gap almost twenty years later. I want to take you into the Cumberland Gap. You can go there yourself. This mountain pass maintain its relevance into modern times as a travel corridor, as it eventually became modern US Highway twenty five. The section of road was extremely treacherous in the Cumberland Gap was notorious for tragic vehicle accidents, claiming an average of five lives per year in this very short stretch of road. However, something good happened. On October eighth, the Cumberland Gap twin bore four lane tunnel was opened, which burrows through Cumberland Mountain and then an incredibly encouraging feat, they removed the concrete and asphalt highway that went through the old gap and rewilded it and today it looked similar to what it looked like when only a single wagon lane trail passed through it. The gap now sits in the Cumberland State Park. It's an incredible place and I took my family there. So we are at the Cumberland Gap. Is the history Cumberland Gap. We're in the Cumberland Gap right now. Take a picture with your mama. Moccas and clad warriors battling Civil Wars soldiers each was here in the historic Cumberland Gap. And now so are you. This is the historic Cumberland Gap. You're there. This is it, man. I think this is where James Lawrence would put his trees down if he was trying to hunt the Cumberland Gap. Boys, this is about the most narrow spot of the gap. You know. The Native Americans called this the deer path, and James Lawrence and many others before and since him made a living off deer hunting in these gaps in the mountains. Guys, Daniel Boone stood right here. Think about that. I mean, like, maybe his feet were right where your feet are, and the vegetation of the gap would have been different. In seventeen sixty nine was the first time he came through here, but he would have stood within I mean at least ten feet of here, no doubt. I think of all the Native Americans that came through this gap, the Buffalo wild. What do you think, crazy, John, I think it's pretty cool. Describe what these woods look like. Bear right here in the comer. They look a lot like Arkansas, which I guess is eastern deciduous. Right there, there's a lot of oak trees, white oak trees. There's a lot of like it's fret of green on the ground. There's a lot of rocks with covered in moss. Yeah, going into the gap was a unique experience for me. You get the impression the Cumberland Gap is massive and grand, but it's really not. It's a narrow mountain gap. It's wild to think that such historical significance was derived from such an obscure place. Frederick Jackson Turner wrote, stand at the Cumberland Gap, and watch the procession of civilization marching single file, the buffalo following the trail to the salt springs. The Indian, the fur trader and hunter, the cattle raiser, the pioneer farmer in the frontier has passed by. Here's Steve Ronnella on the significance of the Cumberland Gap on Boone's life. Some people's lives we see this through history. Some people's lives become defined by history, not necessarily by them. I don't know if Daniel Boone would look back at his life and see that going through the Cumberland Gap was that significant. Maybe would maybe wouldn't. But history has decided that that is this defining moment that was iconic. Man, it had significance to him. Why why was it significant? If you would have asked him and he was in the mood to discuss it, I think it would have been described as this is what we his families people him, this is what we had always been hoping to find in all those moves and all those shifting arounds, like that's the thing you were after, unlimited game, grassland, agricultural land. No other people that look like you there. The people that were, they were easily dismissed by them, reckoned with, but but not recognized as a rightful owners to it, you know. And also it was a hard thing to go do, and they knew that to do it, to try to pull it off, they knew it was risky. They knew it was a major undertaking. You had to scout it, you had the plan. It was like a thing, meaning that not to in any way equate this. I grew up in Michigan and wounded up in Montana. If I was laying out my life for someone later, I would put that as a key moment. Okay, that was like a key moment upon which many things were angered. And there's no way that Boone wouldn't regard that. Going through the Cumberland Gap, and he didn't. You know, he didn't discovered Kentucky. He wouldn't have said he discovered Kentucky. He no doubt went places that no white man had gone before. Absolutely, but it wasn't through the gap. He said, like, man, my whole life built up to this. I put everything I had into making this a go. I put my family at risk to make this a go. He's buried in two places, but I think it would have been symbolic, and he would have recognized the symbolism. Had you taken his ashes and and sprinkled him at the top of the Cumberland Gap, I think it would have been to him. It would have made sense. I want you to hear two of Steve Ronella's favorite Boon stories, and both involved the Cumberland Gap. Here's what he had to say. I have two favorite Boon stories. Ones very precise and specific and one is more general, and that one is about a moment and the other one is about a stretch of years in terms of the one that lasted for a stretch of years. If I had an opportunity to to do time travel and I just had one shot, okay, I'm torn between two things. One would be to go to the northern Great Plains at a time when the first humans had kind of entered what is now the sort of like you know, the Mid Continent entered what is now the Great Plans of America. Okay, so no non Boon related, non boon related years ago. Whatever it was to be on the Northern Plains with the Paleo Indian hunters who were first ever humans is step foot. So if I didn't do that place to seeing you know, mammoth hunter move, I would want to go with Boone when he went in first hunted Kentucky for a couple of years, and yes, I said a couple of years. They went there on a long hunt. People he was with were killed. He wound up staying wilfully, not trapped, just staying so long that he ran out of gunpowder, had to make his own gunpowder with bat guano from caves. Worked up, you know, a good amount of money's worth. The hides lost. It was taken from him by the Indians, and they and from their perspective, he had taken it from them. They took it back, worked up another good fortune and Hides had that taken from him, comes home empty handed. But that adventure, that two year adventure in the wilderness, the finite, very specific moment is later when Boone wanted to bring his family out to the wilderness of Kentucky. His boy, one of his boys, was tortured and killed on the route on the on the wilderness road that led into Kentucky, which that was the Cumberland Gap. They were spread out, they were moved even live stock, you know, you imagine him like walking along, but they were they're they're strung out, well, they're strong, they're strong out so much in fact, as they're traveling through in a big group. They're strung out so much in fact that his boy gets caught, tortured and killed and Boon doesn't know what's going on until later, but he's very uh, you know, his boy's left there, and he's very hastily buried. They didn't want to linger. They hastily bury his son. I believe it might have been about a year later. Um, And this is the kind of favorite Boone story moment. About a year later, he happens to be going through there by himself, and as he tells it, it's raining. He describes it as the most as the lowest point of his life. Goes back to find his boy's grave. His boy was killed with another kid, finds where they had hastily buried him and had been dug up by wolves, and it was just the remains there, um, scavenge remains. But he recognizes his boy's hair on a dried scalp on his head, and so he knows what child is his and sits with him and weeps with him in his arms in the rain. And then here's something that doesn't sound right to him, and realizes there are Indians coming and has to slip off into the night to get away. Uh, I'm a father losing a child. It's just like you can't begin to imagine it. But these people live so close to death that sometimes you think that they had to have been immune to it. Right if you watch Western's righteous people shooting people all the time and like, you know, no one cares and they're ambivalent. Um, maybe there was some of that, But that he had, like that deep emotion you know, shows that like they felt all that stuff. He was human like anybody did. And the thought of a father in the rain himself cradling like the wolf scavenged body of his child and then slipping off into the night, Um, oh, it's haunting. Man. Well, I think what you've tapped into there is that with these superhero disneyfied characters that we've made of some of these people like Boone, we we lose the fact that they are human. That's lost somewhere inside of that story, and that when you see some of these things that he did. And I think this is where the real Boon is better than the myth of Boone, because as I've learned about his life, what I'm most impressed with is him as a as a human. I introduced you to Mr Robert Morgan robustly on part one, but in case you missed it, he's a heck of a guy. He wrote one of the most famous Boone biographies in history, simply titled Boone. You should probably check it out. Born in Appalachia in the nineteen forties, he spent his life writing about the people of the mountains. He's a New York Times bestselling author and poet. He's quite the catch for a hillbilly podcast like this one. Here, it's an honor again to bring you Mr Morgan. So, the Cumberland Gap is this like small topographic feature that if you were looking across the topographic map of North America, you wouldn't pick it out as this place that was really significant in American history, but it it became very significant. It's significant for the United States, but it's also significant for Boone. Can you explain for us why it was so significant specifically for Daniel Boone. Well, it's the topography. It makes it so important to have this chain of mountains, the Cumberlands, and they're hard to cross, particularly for the no roads and no trails are always none. And for about two hundred years, English speaking settlers had kind of been trapped on the eastern side of these mountains. So to get to the middle ground, the Great meadow. They needed an easier way than just crossing one row of mountains after another after another. There were other gaps. Pound Gap farther north was away in through the Cumberlands into the Cumberland Plateau, but it wasn't as good as as a Cumberland Gap, which had been used for thousands of years by by the Indians. They had a name for it. They called it wasi Oda, meaning the deer path, the deer trail, and uh no secret to the Indians. They had known about it for a long time. But getting into Kentucky was an enormously important thing. As it turned out. You wouldn't think so, really, but they needed a way into the middle Ground, into the blue Grass because that was the opening really to the West, to what we call the Middle West. You could get to it by coming down the Ohio River, but you had to go way up there to Pittsburgh that area to get on the river. And it was very dangerous to come down the river because you had Indians on both sides, and many were killed coming down that river. But there was very few Indians in Kentucky. That's why it seemed to appealing. It that seemed like a miracle there were no Indian villages there in this vast area of the Bluegrass. Now why would that be? That was very interesting. It was a mystery had but a very wonderful mystery to explorers. Uh. Well, there is a reason, the several reasons. But there had been an enormous fur war early in the eighteenth century between Indians and the French for control of what we called the blue Grass. Everybody wanted it, and the Iroquois had one at this huge confederation of the Iroquois way up here in New York actually, but they traveled a long way and that was their buffalo hunting ground. They forbade the other Indians for building villages there. But it wasn't just the Iroquois and the other and everybody wanted a Cherokees wanted it, the Mingoes wanted the Delawares. But because it was so fought over, it was called the dark and bloody ground. Now that's not what Kentucky means. Kentuck Key is made from two Iroquois words meaning the flat land, the level land. There have been many names for the area of Kentucky. For a long time, people thought that's what Kentucky meant, the dark and bloody ground. They had heard that, but the Iroquois had named it something a little more peaceable, Kentucky. And why would the white people have called it by that Iroquois name. I think they had heard the Cherokees use it. And there's something so beautiful about Kentucky, those double case sounds. Yeah, the actual word itself. Once you've heard it, you just want to say it. You know, it's like poetry. It's sweet on the tongue. And you could have called it as the Shawnees did, escu parcaiki. You could call it kentu key and and we can see what went out. But Cumberland Gap was so important because coming from the eastern colonies, from the Carolina's, from Tennessee, that was the way in. It was a fairly easy way. Once you've found it, you followed the warriors path, and you're looking at these absolutely forbidding cliffs a boon or somebody in the Adventures of Colonel Daniel Boone said they're like the ruins of Palmyra. And people want how did Dan Daniel Boone ever hear about the ruins of Palmira. Well, Daniel Boone was surprisingly educated, and sometimes he loved to read, and he loved to read history. He had a fabulous memory. He could remember topography. He'd ever seen a place, he would remember it. And he had a gift for language and an ability to talk the language of whoever he was talking to, that ability to blend in and among these backwoodsmen, he could talk rough. When he met better educated people, he could talk like a better educated person. You know, is that that that mirror? That language mirror he was with code switching? Absolutely, it was. It was a kind of you know, chameleon ability. And I think some people think that was put in there by Philson, but it may have been. But I think Boone was perfectly capable of coming up with a phrase he had read or heard, uh and saying they were like the ruins of Palmyra. Steve gave a quick overview of Boone's first trip into Kentucky. But I'd like to let Daniel tell you what happened. What I thought. The mystery of Boone is that we never heard about his life directly from him. If you remember the chapter in John Philson's book titled The Adventures of Colonel Daniel Boone, the one that made him famous, was a first person account of what Boone told Philson. However, it's disputed. Remember how the interview took place when Daniel was fifty years old. When you hear the style of language, it makes you wonder how much of this first person account was really from Boone or is it in the young writer's interpretation of what he said. Philson was around thirty years old when he wrote this. Lastly, and most importantly, Daniel Boone is verified to have said quote true, every word true, regarding Philson's interviews and what he wrote. However, Nathan Boone, Daniel Boone's youngest son, who Lyman Draper interviewed, said quote, I feel confident that Philson took many liberties and made not a few misinterpretations in the narrative, either purposefully or unintentionally. I think their frequency can only be explained by supposing that my father narrated his Kentucky adventures to Philson, who wrote them down from memory at some subsequent period. Much of the language is not my father's. End of court, I'll let you be the judge of whether you believe Daniel or his son Nathan. These are the words that catapulted Boone into global fame, As recorded by Philson. It was on the first of May in the year seventeen sixty nine, that I resigned my domestic happiness for a time and left my family in peaceable habitation on the Yadkin River in North Carolina to wander through the wilderness of America in quest of the country of Kentucky. In company with John Finley, John Stewart, Joseph Holden, James Money, and William cool we proceeded successfully, and after a long and fatiguing journey through a mountainous wilderness in a westward direction, on the seventh day of June following, we found ourselves on Red River, where John Finlay had formerly been trading with Indians, and from the top of an eminence saw with pleasure the beautiful level of Kentucky. Here let me observe that for some time we had experienced the most uncomfortable weather. As a pre libation of our future sufferings. At this place, we encamped and made a shelter to defend us from the inclement season, and began to hunt the country. We found everywhere abundance of wild beasts of all sorts through this vast forest. The buffaloes were more frequent than I had seen cattle in the settlements, browsing on the leaves of the cane, and cropping the herbage on those sense of plains, fearless because ignorant of the violence of man. Sometimes we saw hundreds in a drobe, and the numbers about the salt springs were amazing. In this forest the habitation of beasts of every kind natural to America. We practiced hunting with great success until the twenty second day of December. Following this day, John Stewart and I had a pleasing ramble, but fortune changed the scene and the close of it we had passed through a great forest on which stood myriads of trees, some gay with blossoms, others rich with fruits. Nature here was a series of wonders and a fund of delight. Here she displayed her ingenuity and industry in a variety of flowers and fruits, beautifully colored, elegantly shaped, and charmingly flavored. And we were diverted with innumerable animals presenting themselves perpetually to our view. In the decline of the day, near the Kentucky River, as we ascended the brow of the small hill, a number of Indians rushed out of the thick cane break upon us and made us prisoners. The time of our sorrow was now arrived, and the scene fully opened. The Indians plundered of us what we had and kept us in confinement seven days, treating us with common Indian usage. During this time we discovered no uneasiness or desire to escape, which made them less suspicious of us. But in the dead of night, as we lay in a thick cane break by a large fire, when sleep had locked up their senses, my situation not disposing me for rest, I touched my companion and gently awoke him. We improved this favorable opportunity and departed, leaving them to take their rest, and speedily directed our course towards our old camp, but found it plundered, and the company dispersed and gone home. About this time, my brother, Squire Boone, with another adventure, who came to explore the country shortly after us, was wandering through the forest, determined to find me if possible, and accidentally found our camp. Notwithstanding the unfortunate circumstances of our company and our dangerous situation as surrounded with hostile Indians, are meeting so fortunately and the wilderness made us reciprocally sensible of the utmost satisfaction. So much does friendship triumph over misfortune, that sorrows and sufferings vanish at the meeting not only of real friends, but of the most distant acquaintances, and substitutes happiness in their room. Soon after this, my companion in captivity, John Stewart, was killed by the Indians, and the man that came with my brother returned home by himself. We were then in a dangerous, helpless situation, exposed daily to perils and death amongst Indians and wild beasts, not a white man in the country, but ourselves. Thus situated many hundred miles from our families in the howling wilderness, I believe you would have equally enjoyed the happiness we experienced. I often observed to my brother. You see now how little nature requires to be satisfied. Felicity, the companion of content, is rather found in our own breasts than in the enjoyment of external things. And I firmly believe it requires but a little philosophy to make a man happy in whatever state he is. This consists in a full resignation of the will of providence and a resigned soul finds pleasure in a path strewed with briars and thorns. We continued, not in a state of indolence, but hunted every day, and prepared a little cottage to defend us from the winter storms. We remain there undisturbed during the winter, and on the first day of May seventeen seventy, my brother returned home to the settlement by himself for a new recruit of horses and ammunition, leaving me by myself without bread, salt, or sugar, without company of my fellow creatures, or even a horse or dog. I confess I never before was under greater necessity of exercising philosophy and fortitude. A few days I passed uncomfortably. The idea of a beloved wife and family, and their anxiety upon the account of my absence and exposed situation, made sensible impressions on my heart. A thousand dreadful apprehensions presented themselves to my view, and had undoubtedly disposed me to melancholy if further indulged. One day I undertook a tour through the country, and the diversity and beauties of nature I met within this charming season expelled every gloomy and vexatious thought. Just at the close of the day, as gentle gales retired and left the place to the disposal of a profound calm, not a breeze shook the most tremulous leaf. I had gained the summit of a commanding ridge, and looking round with astonishing delight, held the ample planes and the beauteous tracks below. On the other hand, I surveyed the famous River Ohio that rolled in silent dignity, marking the western boundary of Kentucky with inconceivable grandeur. At a vast distance, I beheld the mountains lift their venerable brows and penetrate the clouds. All things were still. I kindled a fire near a fountain of sweet water, and feasted on the loin of a buck, which a few hours before I had killed. The sullen shades of night soon overspread the whole hemisphere, and the earth seemed to gasp after the hovering moisture. My roving excursion this day had fatigued my body and diverted my imagination. I laid me down to sleep, and I woke not until the sun had chased away the night. I continued this tour, and in a few days explored a considerable part of the country. Each day equally pleased as the first, I returned again to my old camp, which was not disturbed herb to my absence. I did not confine my lodging to it, but often reposed in the thick cane brakes to avoid the Indians, who I believe often visited my camp. But fortunately for me, in my absence, in this torment with fear, which is vain if no danger comes, and if it does, only augments the pain, it was my happiness to be destitute of this afflicting passion, with which I had the greatest reason to be affected. The prowling wolves diverted my nocturnal hours with perpetual howlings, and the various species of animals in the vast forest in the daytime were continually in my view. Thus I was surrounded with plenty in the midst of want. I was happy in the midst of dangers and inconveniences. In such a diversity, it was impossible I should be disposed to melancholy. No populous city, with all the varieties of commerce and stately structures, could afford so much pleasure to my mind as the beauties of nature I found here. Thus, through an uninterpreted scene of Sylvan pleasures, I spent the time until the twenty seventh day of July following, when my brother to my great Hilocoity met me according to appointment at our old camp. Shortly after, we left this place, not thinking it safe to stay there any longer, and proceeded to Cumberland River, reconnoitering that part of the country until March seventeen seventy one, in giving names to the different waters. Soon after, I returned home to my family with the determination to bring them as soon as possible to live in Kentucky, which I esteemed a second paradise, at risk of my life and fortune. End of passage. This is a wild story of Boone's trip into Kentucky. It's important to remember that Pilson's biographical chapter is a big part of what made Boon world famous us. It's interesting to think about why there's lots of stuff inside of there that was new to the thought process of Americans. In Mr Morgan's book, he made some insightful commentary on the influences in Boone's life and how the old Woodsman viewed his life. This is an excerpt from Mr Morgan's book talking about John Filson's chapter. The style is that of a quest narrative of a night errant in search of a paradise, but it fits the adventure narrative also as popularized by Defoe in the Robinson Crusoe. After the Bible and The Pilgrim's Progress, Robinson Crusoe was perhaps the most widely read book in North America in the eighteenth century. Published in seventeen nineteen, the book, often called the first novel in English, went through printing after printing and addition after addition. Thought by the public to be a factual memoir, not a work of action, Robinson Crusoe was modeled on the true account of the Adventures of the Scottish sailor Alexander Selkirk, as published by Richard Steele in seventeen thirteen. Though largely unnoticed by scholars and historians writing about Boone, defosed novel deeply influenced the way Boone told his story and the way Philson wrote down the narrative. Crusoe's story is told in the first person and not only describes one man's heroic struggle for survival in the wilderness, but is interspersed with moral meditations on the growth of character, humility, and wisdom. After he finds himself alone on the desert island, Crusoe says, as my reason began to master my despondency. I began to comfort myself as well as I could, and to set the good against the evil, that I might have something to distinguish my case from worse. Describing the period when he was alone in Kentucky after the departure of his brother Squire from North Carolina in seventeen seventy, Boone tells us I was by myself without bread, salt, or sugar, without company of my fellow creatures, or even a horse or dog. And I never before was under greater necessity of exercising philosophy and fortitude. Much of Crusoe's story is taken up with the details of his survival, how he built a shelter, enlarged his cave, planted grain, hunted, But alternating with the descriptions and narrative are passages of philosophical comment quote, let this stand as a direction from the experience of the most miserable of all conditions in the world that we always find in it something to comfort ourselves from and to set in the description of good and evil. On the credit side of the account, Boone also describes in some detail the way he and his brother Squire struggled in the wilderness, threatened by Indians, loneliness, the unknown, and then, like Crusoe, he will turn from narrative to philosophical observation. Thus, situated many hundred miles from our families in the Howling wilderness, I believe you have equally enjoyed the happiness we experience. I often observed my brother. You see how little nature requires to be satisfied. Philson and Boone understood, as did the Foe, that even an adventure story had to make a moral point. Besides many parallels and technical details about survival, landscape, solitude, their similarities in the passages of meditation. M M. It's super interesting to know that humans respond in predictable ways. Two stories told in the right way, whether conscious or unconscious. Boone and his biographer knew this, and they made their narrative like one of the best selling stories of the time period. That's some legit branding from the old backwoodsman. I want to switch the conversation, however, back to Native Americans, and Mr Morgan has some interesting tidbits to share about the Boone family and the Native American influence on them, and a couple others, and Abraham Lincoln, the grandfather of the Great Emancipator, is in this group. Boon also knew the Hanks family something, so Abraham Lincoln's grandfather went with Boone to Kentucky exactly that second second, big much UH commerce communication between the Lincoln family and the Boone family all the way back to Pennsylvania and then in Virginia. They've known each other for a long time, and UH important to remember that, because I think this is very essential to understanding Lincoln, that he was a man of the of the frontier of the UH, and that his style was informed his politics were informed by the way Indian chiefs did things. Famous situation Chase, Secretary of State, Sword says to the president, Mr President, what is your policy? You've got to tell us your policy, and Lincoln says, my policy is to have no policy. This is exactly the way Indian chiefs the last moment they wouldn't wouldn't tell you what they wanted to do. He picked that up, you know in the backwoods. Uh, that's that's the way you act as a leader. There's so many ways that Indigenous people, American Indians, influenced American culture, and that's one of them. And you just describe a great example of how Native American culture has influenced the American identity. Are there other examples of that? Well? The most famous is the fact that the Articles of Confederation Continental Congress were based on the Iroquois Constitution. Revival preaching. A lot of the famous revival preachers were part Indian. Oral Roberts was Choctaw, for instance. The rats preacher in American history was Decompson. He could mesmerize, he'd combined the Indian beliefs the Christian beliefs and could sway anybody. And I think American oratory of the nineteenth century was really influenced by these great Indian leaders. For their their eloquence, the oratory was that was their leadership. Sam Houston could didn't move anybody. He'd been adopted by the Cherokees. He was at Cherokee. He was raven of the Hawassi Cherokees. On the topic of Native Americans I want to continue to look at Boone's relationship with them and restate that Boone was boom because of Native Americans. With no Native Americans, there's no Daniel Boone national archetype that we know. They seem to have more influence on him than white culture. Here's Steve and I discussing this very thing. He had a really unique relationship with Indians in that he was you know, at one point in his life he was adopted by the Shawnee as a son of blackfish, and he always had this like seemingly deep respect for Native Americans. But just the nature of the times and where he was at and what he was doing, he ended up, you know, being in conflict with him at different times, many time that you have to analyze them. I think you have to analyze that aspect of him in context of his peers, and compared to his peers, he had a very lenient you know, compared to long Hunters or compared to other military other soldiers of the time, seems to have had a very tolerant, rather progressive view of of relations between the Euro Americans in the Native Americans, but at the same time did a tremendous amount in some respects, one could say like, unintentionally but knowingly did a tremendous amount to displace those people, but understood the loss that he was inflicting. Dr Taylor Keene is a graduate of Dartmouth College and has a couple of graduate degrees from Harvard. He's currently a professor in the Business School of Crichton University in Omaha, Nebraska. Most relevant for this conversation, he's a member of the Cherokee in Omaha Nation. He considers himself a citizen historian of the Cherokee Nation. I wanted to ask him about the other side of the story of the Cumberland Gap. Meet Professor Keen. Professor Keen, I want to uh. I want to tell you an experience that I had while I was in Kentucky. I took my family to the Cumberland Gap. So the Cumberland Gap sits on the border of Tennessee, Virginia, and Kentucky. And the way that we came through the gap was from the Virginia and Tennessee side, So we came from east to west. And as I've been thinking about this for so long, I was excited and you kind of drive on this Highway and you can see the Cumberland Gap. And as I'm there with my boys in the car and my wife, I'm I'm talking to them about how, you know, this is what Daniel Boone saw. This is exactly what he saw minus the buildings and civilization when he came through here. And we we went through the Cumberland Gap from from east to west. We stayed in Middlesboro, Kentucky that night and that evening we decided we were going to drive back through the gap. And when I was driving from west to east, I just had the thought that most likely the first humans to ever walk through that gap came from west to east. Most likely no one really knows where the indigenous people of North America exactly came from, but the best evidence right now, I would say what they came from the west and moved into the east. And it was really kind of a moving thought because as a as a American, I'm thinking about the European Americans that came from east to west, but the indigenous people's they would have found that thousands of years before before Americans did, and the French did, and the white Europeans, and it was and that's what got me on this train of thought of you know, we celebrate this path, you know, people passing through this gap, but for the indigenous people of this country, of this continent, it wasn't something necessarily to be celebrated. And that's why I wanted to talk to you. I just wanted to get your your perspective and just talk about ultimately the impact of of Europeans coming through the Cumberland Gap and then just settling the rest of North America. I think that's a fantastic intro um. And that's the big question, is it not? How long ago we're the first humans to see that? And that's a mind mind boggling question for sure. The theory to which you are indicating is the bearing straight theory. Correct, there's a couple of them I here of, but that has an indelible impact on Americans. Perceptions of indigenous peoples are ancient Cherokee stories. Um say that we come from an island in the east, meaning the Atlantic, and that we were on a island that had volcanoes and big turtles. That's actually a very important part of Cherokee cosmology, those those turtles. But that makes it sound like it's somewhere around the Galapa Ghost or something like that. And then our stories say that that that was where we had massive temples and an an earlier golden age that eventually water overcame the island and we had to flee, and that's where our stories of Grandmother Spider carried our one ember from our one great fire, and that we migrated into what would be South America. And the Cherokee is the only tribe that utilize blow dart guns as hunting weapons as well as double walled basketry. And so that's uh an imprint of our time in South America. And then that we migrated up over the Great Old Man, which is the Mississippi River, and then eventually found ourselves up near the Synecas, because that's our most closely related tribal groups. And uh, eventually we were forced down south into what is more often than not viewed as you know, the Cherokee homelands, but you know, we were probably immigrants to that area as well. You can look to the other five civilized tribes, the Creeks and the Choctaws and the Chickasaws, and and uh and the Seminoles, and that was that was their homeland. But Cherokee certainly occupied it. The question is for how long. So when we're talking about things like the Cumberland Gap, it h time as a continuum makes it really really messy, regardless of who discovered that, and of course will will never know. Um, most Americans would cite that of his Daniel Boone, who val signs. I think indigenous people's had a bigger influence on on Daniel Boone and other frontiersman than um what is more popularly recognized. And little things like him basing the turkey with his own juices and something that you know, we as Americans just take for commonplace. But um, I was probably you know, thousands year old indigenous practice with you know, with those those great birds that have been here for a very long time, very very important in tribal cultures. Talk to me about the long term, like high level overview of what happened, what that started to the indigenous people when when white Europeans came through that gap. Well it's um, there's one aspect of Indigenous history in the Americas that you can't get around. That's the issue of smallpox and disease, primarily smallpox. However it got here many scholars would theorize that it came from the Spanish and probably the Spanish conquistadors, and whether or not it came directly from human contact or dogs or horses. Of course, in these days we all understand the basics of a pandemic. It doesn't doesn't matter how it got here. What does matter was the impact on indigenous peoples without exception, across all of the America's whether that's what is now Canada and the United States, Central America, South America, the indigenous peoples were decimated by smallpox. Most conservative estimates are around seventy but the bulk of the data that we do have is eight five to ninety five decimation death rates from smallpox. And so we have these fascinating documented encounters with indigenous peoples from say the Spanish conquistadors and massive numbers tribal peoples in the Amazon Meso America. You can pick your conquistador and follow each story, but the stories pretty much the same. They were outnumbered in many cases, pushed back, repelled or defeated, came back with large armies a few years later and found everyone gone m hm. And so it's that's that's the story. Worried that. I think is so hard for people to get their minds wrapped around. Think of your closest friends and family and there's only five of you left. So it at the least it, you know, could only have detrimentally impacted tribal people's, whether that's a base of head men and warriors, which is crucial at such times, or than the knowledge of agricultural life ways. Uh, of the knowledge was gone. So in many cases we were kind of faced with almost a cultural amnesia. And so you know, if you were a child that survived that, no longer do you have of those teachers and storytellers. You have five and they have five percent of what was left. So you have this huge gap and made it an easy story for Euro Americans coming to America to view it as a vast wilderness when in reality, you know, it's been populated for over ten thousand years for sure, and arguably twenty to thirty thousand years, so there there was no wilderness. There was only land in the animals and whether one knew them or not. Yeah, I'd look at things like the Cumberland Gap and I think easy ten thousand years, maybe fifteen, and if we go into the number of generations of people that is, it's just mind boggling when we think of American history just at a surface level, you think of wars with indigenous people that would have killed Native Americans. I mean, you know, musket balls and whatnot, But really that that's not the culprit. That's not the main culprit. The main culprit was disease. This hidden, this hidden warfare that came in just from contact, which is just really such a bizarre thing when you think about it, because how how Yeah, I don't know, I mean, I'm sure there's science behind how These white Europeans were coming from tightly grouped, dwelling places of people, so disease was spread around, and these indigenous people were living these healthy lives out in the wild, so they didn't have disease. That's the biggest irony because nearly all of these pandemics, as it were, smallpox, etcetera, all came from domesticated animals. So smallpox is a derivation of cow pox, and that's why there was a greater immunity towards it with European populations. They were certainly not immune. When you dig deep into American history. You see the impact on even on the founding fathers themselves. You know, just a personal question, Professor Keane, Like, I mean you can tell from me doing a podcast series on Daniel Boone, this is a man that, like I want to celebrate. You see, inside the research, Boone was just a figurehead. He was just an archetype for for what Americans did. He was just the one that we kind of picked to be our heroes. So we're not necessarily picking on Boone, but like, how do how do you feel when we celebrate somebody like Boone? I mean, but you're an American as well. Now, I mean it's so long past, but what are your personal thoughts on that. I've just always found it fascinating. I mean, first of all, I can I consider myself a patriot, and I love our country, and I understand why all cultures need heroes. And so you talked a lot about branding and archetypes, and of course that's all stuff in our in our field of business. So I understand that, and so I acknowledge that he was an icon. He was an archetype of that frontiersman. But I also feel like there should be in history indigenous people's that he worked with, learned from spent time hunting with that should also be those types of heroes. And we don't know who those are, but guaranteed they were there. He did have a relationship with my tribe, the Cherokees. He did have a relationship with the Shawnees. I'm just glad that podcasts like yours today bring those aspects of history back up, because it only adds to the rich, you know, tapestry of really what what made those individuals people to survive? What an incredible perspective from Professor Keene. I want to go back to Mr Morgan and hear what he has to say about historical revision. I figured he's got some insight in modern times people have They go back into history and they find faults with people based upon things that we now know were egregious things like slavery, like people. We now know worldwide that this was a terrible thing. This is a this is a scar on humanity that we've we've been a part of this, but it but it just doesn't seem fair to go back and say that every human that ever was involved in that in any way was an evil person. And at the same time I'm I'm talking about Boon and and want to give him credit for all these things, but we know there was this irony inside of his life for things that were done to Native Americans. And you know, we said that he owned a slave, and not a whole lot is known about that. Can you speak to that, just kind of like your personal thoughts on how we can deal with that. Well, Historical revisionism is the fashion now and people want to impose on the past the values and the judgments of the present, and we should keep that in mind, you know, our ideals and our ethics as we look at historical figures. But we said also be tolerant because of all human beings, and we all make mistakes, and in the future some historian, maybe looking at us, will so do you also, you know, want to be more flexible and looking at these figures and not only see what they did wrong, but to see what they did right. And in the case of Boon, to remember why he's important. I mean, there's a reason he's so important in American culture and in fact in world culture. We should have it both ways. I think we should remember that Daniel Boone, believe it or not, raises a Quaker actually had slaves at least at one point, and we should remember that we tend as human beings two act the way other people are acting in a culture that probably at that time it's it's seemed okay because everybody was doing it. To realize that to remember that almost Jefferson owned slaves, but did he also of hard slavery the strange paradox to remember that Boon did other things. It wasn't just owning a slave, right, So it's it's possible. What you're what I'm hearing you say is that it's very possible for someone to and this seems so contrary to what we here happening in society today, but it is possible for someone to have parts of their life that are very honorable and noble and then maybe have one section that wasn't great, and that one section doesn't cancel out the honorable and noble. I don't think we should look at people's lives just over one issue. I mean, you've got to look at take the thing all around in a way and try to get some understanding of them as a human being with many facets at the same time, and keep in mind the values of the President. Of course that a historian is looking at things through the lens of the present always and through their own biases and values. But you can't be much of a historian or a biographer unless you're able to also see things through the lens of that time. Otherwise you will be so limited in your approach. You have to have this sympathetic imagination or empathetic imagination, so you can try to find out how those people saw things. How did the world look to Rebecca Boon two Michael A. Stoner to Simon Kenton? I mean, what were they after? What are they trying to do? Of course you can't do that perfectly, but the point of historical writing is to try to imagine what this world was like, what had have been like to have Kentucky there? And we can say, oh, they destroyed the game, they bought slavery into Kentucky. What was Michael Stoner? What was Boon thinking of at that time? And they were probably think of this great paradise, this thing available, this thing there. I can go there, I can I can become a part of it. We cannot judge in our own time what Land meant to these scotch Irish immigrants who never had a foot of land. They could keep. What that meant to you, you know, to be able to hunt, to be able to own weapons, to have this unlimited continent ahead of you. And of course they did things we don't approve of, especially to the Indians. They weren't going to let Indians stand in the way of this, this you know, new world they were trying to build. So they were far from perfect people, but they also didn't wonderful things and created a sense of a new country, a new civilization, historical relativism. I think it's something we shouldn't carry too far. I'm hat a bit of a loss while gathering my thoughts on this episode. We really didn't cover much of Boone's life in part one. We made it from his birth to his mid thirties, but we're still here in his mid thirties. We dedicated this entire time to the Cumberland Gap because of its significance on Boon, Indigenous people, and America. Man. I love Daniel Boone and I intend to celebrate him. In most parts of his life. Boone's passing through the Cumberland Gap was truly a physical feat, romanticized and cherished by backwoodsman like myself, but it was also deeply metaphorical for America. I liked the tension between man and nature, a narrow mountain pass and this rugged dude duking it out. But I only love it because Boone taught us to love it. It's the story we identify with, the one we were born with, and that version ridiculously embodies Western thought even in its telling. Indigenous people didn't view their lives in conflict with nature. They were simply part of it. I'm speculating, but perhaps the Indigenous view wouldn't see humans passing through the gap as a fight against nature, but rather like the current of a flooding river that couldn't be held back. The one thing that we know for certain as we look at human history is that civilizations rise and fall, and very seldom is it just I suspect these are the treacherous waters will have to weigh through on this side of mortality. Folks, thanks for listening to this episode. You can hear me and the crew distill this down next week on the Bear Grease Render Podcast, And after that we'll put out the third part of our series on Daniel Boone and we'll cover some more ground in his life. If you've enjoyed this, share it with a buddy. Thanks a ton back because baby farmy caress you all for your Rod, got Harvey, your he don snap the gap, the Gatcary g back holding ties are very do everything gaps. Readings are I'm back, Arf the Cap back, Randy r Back the Cabary Gap

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