00:00:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, this episode came at me as a surprise and kind of a shocker. It wasn't planned, but after a string of emails and the flurry of phone calls the first week of December, I found myself on a plane headed to southeast Ohio. Our Secret Agent Man series ended a few weeks ago, and on that series we heard about the illustrious and wild career of undercover wildlife agent Artie Stewart. In Ohio, he told us about Operation Redbud, which in the nineteen nineties was the largest turkey poachings thing in US history. You've heard about that a ton, But I learned something about telling old stories. They don't always end where you think they do. Stories continue, and they always have more than one side. That's all I can say for now, But I really doubt you couldn't want to miss this one June a lot of good day. It was almost like unbelievable. My name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. Presented by f HF Gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. So when did you buy this place. I'm gonna guess probably a year and a half, the two year ago maybe, and it was it was shut down. No, it was so operating when we bought it. And uh, but it didn't look not even on the scale it looks like today. It was just needed updated. Like I say, we owned the Piza shop next door. So actually my father in law said, you know what, Claude, and he said, on any day you said, you just buy that bowling alley too. And I was like, yeah, you've lost your mind too, you know. So uh, well, the next thing, you know, we've come up for sale. So we bought it and uh. And then we bought it, we shut the doors and uh and did a big remodel. I mean, we got it all so down to the bear like bear concrete. That's that's what was left. This is my first time to Mcconnell'sville, Ohio. It's a cute town of about sevent people, built on the banks of the Mosqugam River in the southeast part of the state. Mcconnell'sville is also where most of the twenty six men and dieted in Operation Redbud live. Of if you've lived in small town America, there's certain people that stand out. They're woven into the fabric of the community and make it thrive. Their leaders well respected, their contributors and functional pillars of the community. We've just heard the voice of Claude Maxwell. There was ten lanes of bowling here, so we tore three out. So you know, as you see we got the dartboards. Uh pull table over there. You can't stay it from here. But then big kitchen. There's a restaurant here. Yes, it's very nice restaurant back here also, so back here there's two virtual golf bays, which will be I'm sure a big hit. So Mcconnell'sville is not a big town, so this is gonna be like a hub for for people to come to a like a real social I'm hoping it's gonna be a big fit for the Mcconellsville people. Um, and I know it's a lot of people excited about because you know, there's nothing really here for the kids to do. Claude is sixty years old, and wears fashionable dark frame glasses. He drives a late model Chevy Silverado pickup. The back seats are folded up and the floorboard is full of the walk tools and construction supplies. When I opened the passenger door, he scrambles to clear away work gloves and cabinet hardware still in the packaging. It's clear that Claude has worked hard for everything that he's got, and it's evident he and his family are these kind of standout people. The bowling Alley in the pizza place called Maxwell's Pizza are side by side overlooking the river. The pizza place has a rooftop dining area that's been voted as one of the top ten best rooftops in Ohio. Both of these businesses are being spearheaded by Claude's son cast a really sharp and kind fella in his early thirties. Cass was just four years old on Sunday, June nineteen. He thought there must have been an early morning party at their house when all the vehicles rushed into their driveway. Not to be outdone by her older brother, Claude's daughter Adrian started a cafe in downtown Mcconnellsville called the Bluebird Cafe, and I kid you not, they served me the best breakfast I've eaten in the last five years. The place is top notch. It's become overwhelmingly clear to me that these Maxwell's have something special. And I haven't even told you that Claude runs a sporting goods store called Maxwell's Hunting Supplies. So that we're in Mcconnellsville. Ah, he's introducing me to a man that we've met on the sidewalk. So, uh, this is the guy that is the podcast for Yeah, well you know the operation. Yeah, So we just got done here. Did you hear about that that we did a podcast on that. My boy was talking North Carolinas told me about always that right from that there, this just happened. Uh. Ron is literally the first person we've met on the street. As we walked towards Claude's hunting store. After a slightly awkward moment, I realized that I might not be the most popular man in Mcconnellsville. Not everybody was pumped about some outsider talking about Operation Redbud without hearing the full story. But I went ahead and asked Ron appointed question. Yeah, so, so who who do you know Claude Maxwell to be inside this community. He's a great this man, now, don't know. I mean what they've done in this community is outstanding. I mean with with the blue Bell and the bowling alley and the rough top, you know, pizza shop. I mean, it's just terriffic what he's done. And I'm proud of the whole family. They're all good workers. So I mean he's like a pillar in this community, is it? Would that be right? Well? I hate to say that he really is. The whole family needs to be commended for what they've done here. Uh yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah yeah, sorry to walk up to on the street and just shove a making your face. The Mcconnellsville tour continues. We're now in Maxwell's Hunting Supplies. So we're walking in Maxwell's Hunting and Fishing Supplies store. But I had the store is tidy and packed wall to wall and floor to ceiling with archery targets, deer blinds, and bottles of doe estras. Behind the counter is a wall full of guns of all kinds. The middle of the store has hunting clothing and a bow rack and in the back of the store you couldn't fit another jig or crank bait on the shelves. We sell Matthews um Hoyt an elite and then of course you know uh Raven Crossbows, several different crossbow companies. We handle big selection of fishing equipments. Yes, and uh we can walk on back do here, but yeah, give me the full tour. Man. What I'm about to tell you won't make sense unless you've listened to our Secret Agent Man series. We worked hard in the podcast to hide the identity of the man that we called Target number two. This was the guy that RTI Stewart became very close with, the guy rt so badly wanted to tell that he was an undercover agent because he liked him so much. Well, Claude Maxwell is Target number two of Operation Red Butt. If you recall, through the undercover work of Art and his partner, they brought charges against twenty six men, and these guys were convicted of over two hundred and seventy five wildlife violations. But when you do the math, Claude Maxwell received exactly twenty percent of those violations. He pleaded guilty to seventy four When I first heard about Artie Stewart and his undercover work, I was interested in highlighting the work done by the wildlife law enforcement of this country. The freedoms that we have as hunters carry a high price tag, and part of the cost is making sure that the law is followed. Artis openness gave us insight into a hidden layer of law enforcements seldom seen the world of undercover work. His stories were fascinating, and he was very good at what he did. However, what never occurred to me, what never crossed my mind, is how these stories intersected the lives of those that he chased. I never expected to talk to Target number two, to be honest with you, it was almost like he didn't exist. But oh he does, and he's not who I thought he would be. Here's Claude Maxwell. Well before this started, before I met the undercover I worked at a a manager drive through in a bar. I worked there for probably seventeen years. I met a lot of people. I met a lot of great people. That was basically how I met the undercover agent. Was where I worked at intentionally commend to meet me I had met the undercover guy. I mean, I remember exactly when it was and uh, well, automatically we uh we hit it off pretty good. Of course, I think he was probably hoping we get hit it off pretty good. But we started hanging out and uh started hunting from mayor, I guess. I mean, I don't know, but like you said, that's what that's what I've done for seventeen years. Claude was in his early thirties and nine he was married and had two children. He worked as a bartender, and it was here that he met Bob Thomas, or at least that's what the man said his name was. But why was he here to meet Claude? So the Ohio DNR would have had you in their crosshairs. So you were killing turkeys before season, some deer before in season. Yep, that's what was going on. I sure did. Um I tell you I was out hunting turkeys one morning before season, and uh, and I'd probably killed I don't know, maybe a couple of birds, I guess before season that year. And the guy I used to work for at this bar or his son was real good friends with the game wards and daughter at high school. He had come home and I've seen this boy every day he'd pulled me aside one day said hey, said, uh, just let you know that the game wards daughter, which I'm not gonna mention your name, had told me that my dad has got the radar on you. So I actually started getting nervous about that. I mean, it wasn't like I was out every day hunting, but you know there was days i'd go, you know, a few days in a row, generally a couple of weeks before season. Come in Turky, God, I want to be hunt him. So anyhow, one morning I was coming back and I've been turkey hunting. Actually didn't care a gun that morning because of what this boy had told me of off the game warden. Well, he'd definitely done had his eyes locked on me because we was coming on County Road three, and I looked at every vehicle that went by me. I mean, I just I still do today. I mean I just I guess it's just a habit of you know, way with people or whatever. Well, that morning, a particular morning, I had passed the game warden. There's two of them, and I knew the local game warden very well, and so I met him. He was in an undercover car or it maybe even a station way. But I remember saying, so they weren't in their truck. No, No, they were in a civilian car. That you recognize the guy. So when I passed him, of course I freaked out. I was like, wow, he is onto me. So I slowed down. I was actually going to work that morning, so I drove real slow all the way to town because I was positive that was him. And he knew when he seen me who I was. I was in camouflage, you know, he knew I was probably out turkey hunting. I was coming into Malta, which is right across the river. Here this vehicle I finally had caught up with me, and it was the vehicle that I've been waiting for. So you was going slow so he would follow you, or so he could catch up. Catch up. Yeah, so he catch up with me. So and he did catch up with me. So I think he was kind of surprised when he made the turn to come into Malta that he sees my vehicle. And at that time I drove a Chevy Tahoe hatchback, so he sees me. So he takes a left on side street, like I say, I have no weapon in my vehicle. So I take a left at the red light, and I wanted to catch up with him. But the reason he took a left because he's seen me, and he didn't make it look obvious. So we pulled up the side street together. He's coming one way, I'm coming the other way. So I pulled up to him. He rolls his wounded down and I asked him. I said, are you looking for me? And he said, now it's with you, just Outsidelphia. I was pretty sure you're looking for me, he said, Now I was out doing a turkey sort way. We're doing turkey every days. Well, a guy to pass your seat. He stared a hole through me. So anyhow, pulling away from the vehicle, I've seen him smacked this staring. Well, wow, he because he got busted. Yeah, he knew that. I knew that. You know, he's out there looking for me. He knew that. I knew that he was out there looking for me. Though the words Operation Redbud had never been uttered, the pounding of the steering wheel was its genesis moment. Perhaps, if Claude hadn't spoiled their initial plans by taking that left hand turn, maybe the local warden would have caught him and slowed him down, and he would have been an average turkey poacher and we'd never even know who he was. But the what might have been are long gone, like a cottonwood leaf in the current of the Moskegam River. Fate was set into place. You told me about meeting Bob Thomas Art Stewart, and you told me about how you probably could have You were tipped off pretty quick that he was an undercover agent. Can you tell me about that? Yes, Well, when I met Ort, and I can even remember the exact chair he said him when he came in the bar that day and he ordered the Miller light. That's how good my memory is. So we would, uh, just in conversation. We got to talking a little bit that day and he was dressed in camouflage, tipping off that he was a hunter. Yeah, sure, so he knew yeah, because he knew who I was was. I didn't know him. I mean, but you know, RT. Bob Thomas whatever. At that time. The first time we spoke, you were calling him Bob. I thought that was really interesting. Well that's what a long time so I just want the name is Bob. But anyhow, I enjoyed being around Bob just that one day, I had a pretty good field for me. I thought, pretty good Feller. Of course, I'm sure that looking back, I mean, of course Bob wanted to be my friend. He wanted to know me. I want to guess it's probably uh. A few days later arts in the store again. A good friend of mine, Kevin, had come in the bar. We had a side door on the side of the bar. A lot of people just come in that side door, which was the stage, and then you come down three steps and you you'd be in the bar. Well. Kevin had come in the door that I want to say as around one or two in the afternoon, and Bob or r T or whoever was sitting at the edge of the at the bar theyre closest to the stage. Kevin had called him RT. He said, hey, RT, you know you always named a couple of times, and Bob finally looks up at him and said, because I'm talking to Kevin. Bob said, you talking to me? And he said, yeah, ain't you RT store. He said, you must have me mixed up someone else. He said, well you look like the game ward and shocked her down. Uh. Hawking counting Bob said, oh, I ain't no game ward you and uh, well, the dry through bell rang usually when it just rang. One time, I knew it was somebody walking because they just stepped on the rubber hose to make the bell ring. Kevin had left, and I thought it was probably him back there, so well, so he buzzed it for you to come back there. That's right. Wow, so your buddy is like wanting a private meeting with Yes, Kevin always called me Max. One opened door and he said, hey Max, He said, do you know that guy out there to bar, I said, I just made a few days ago. He said, unless he's got a twin. His name is Artie Stewart and he's a game ward instructor in Hawking County. So he said, this is right at the very beginning of what became Operation Redbud. That's right, that's exactly right. So this guy tells you that's Artie Stewart. He's a game ward. Yes, So he said, I'd be careful who you hang out with. He said, I could be wrong. He said, it's been a while since I've seen it, but he said, by god, he said it looks like him, So i'd even uh, mentioned that to my wife and she said, you know, she was like, because she didn't like me going out spotlight and shooting deer. She was not for it. A matter of fact, she would yet ticked off if I went, so not always for it. It's all right, you know, I'll be fine. Anyhow, I went back to the bar and uh, I was talking to Bob and I said, yeah, I said, well, Kevin thinks she was a game warden. He said yeah, and then he went on a big spill about that he's a game warden. You know, he just yeah, so, uh, well, that afternoon, I think of that afternoon, Bob had showed me a a turkey in the back of his van, a turkey fan that he had had fanned out, and Utah was a fresh kill. He had his spurs are and he said he had just killed it. And I think he was trying to gain my trust a little bit. Okay, yeah, of course, you know back then I couldn't see past my nose because I'm like, what is the odds of a game warden here in a book like an undercover? I mean, that wasn't even a thing, was it. No? I mean, like I think you probably heard about things like that. But yeah, I've never thought would ever happen to men. Of course, when he showed me that, I was like, I kind of trust him, but I just say, I don't think nabe Kevind is exact what he's talking about. Well, then right after that, Bob started wearing yellow lens glasses, sunglasses, and then he grew a full beard. Because when I first met r T, he was clean. They had a mustache, big mustache. After that he wrote a huge beard, so he knew he got busted from He's gonna have to change up a little bit. It's so interesting here in the different sides of the same story arts he told us about this one too. Claude wouldn't have known it, but RT was scrambling on the inside, but he was also learning, hence the new beard and sunglasses. In our Secret Agent Man podcast, r T told many of the ins and outs of living undercover and becoming close to Claude. They poached turkeys, spotlighted deer, and became the closest of friends. Here's a funny story. We shot a deer one night, Bob and down. I don't believe it was with us at night, but we shotted and we're down below my buddy Mike's house and world clo down the woods and cold, probably a six or seven inches snow one. I mean, we're clear down in the woods, just so wouldn't get caught. And pretty soon Bob and Don snuck up on us. Of course, he's all good friends, and you know, everybody knows everybody, and uh, he got up on snuck up on us and said game warden boys, and we was freaking out because I thought it was a game warden. Well it but but man, he told that story three times, and man he would laugh looking back. Claude says the signs were everywhere that his relationship with Bob Thomas was suspect. However, this type of undercover work was entirely new, and Claude's was like a deer in the headlights, especially when the relationship came crashing down. For Clawe, it was the surprise of his life, one that would change it forever. So our TI talked about how he said he was closer to you than probably he was anybody he ever worked, which was interesting. And part of what we talked about was what was it like to be turned in by somebody you really thought was your friend. Yeah, that was probably the worst thing that probably ever happened to me, to be honest with you. Um, you know, we hung out for a long time together, and I think basically about every day. I mean, there might have been a day or two we didn't hang out, but for the most part we ve together, me and him and Dawn a lot. So when that morning, seven o'clock at the morning, you know, they hit everybody at seven o'clock in the morning, all the guys that were involved in the in in in the sting. Yeah, well, I remember being in bed that morning and we've been up late night we had I guess my place was Party Central. W's where everybody come to when we just hang out and have a good time. But anyhow, that the morning that happened, I kept here on this pounding on my house. I thought it was dreaming, okay, you know, summertime. And my wife finally gets me up, said, you got to look outside. Gosh, you're in big trouble. That's the exactly what she told me. So I jumped up out of bed. Of course, I got long hair then, and a matter of fact, had orange shorts. One looked like I was getting ready to go Joel. So I looked outside and I've seen all these wildlife officers and and how many trucks were there? Wow? You know, honestly, I think there must have been achieved. My best recollection probably fifteen are fifteen vehicles pulled up to your house. Yeah, there's uh Crown Victories, and there's uh game warden trucks, a one towing Clumbus News Times Recorder, which is our local news. Oh wow, so they pulled up with a with a a tow truck to tow your vehicles. Yeah, the media was there. We're gonna film them pulling you out of your house? Yes, and they did. Yes. So you so you answer the door? Yeah, time I got my barons together. What in the world, you know, I'm thinking, what's going on? It? Did it even occur to you that this is because of killing turkeys the league? Nothing? I mean, you're just like, like I said, what's June six? I mean it's summertimes. They why is all these game boardings here? So I couldn't figure out exactly what was going on. And and they're yelling. I mean, these people are yelling open the door or we're busting the door in So I ran to the front door and opened the door, and when I did, they pulled me out the door. And I want to know if I hadn't loaded firearms in my house, and they read my rights, and uh, I still couldn't figure out they didn't tell me, you know, Bobb and Dawn or whatever. So I was it almost seemed like a dream really looking out there and seeing all these gameboard vehicles. And I think our local game warden he was probably a second guy through my front door, the guy you saw on the station way. I can follow on you, yes, yes, and yeah, And like you say, he still comes in my store this day. I mean that's I have no I have no better feelings, you know what I mean. He's he's doing his job. I find Claude's ability to move beyond the past to be unusually developed, kind of like when you watch a fisherman skilled with a knife filet of fish. What they're doing is very difficult, but it looks easy. I'd say Claude's position is rare. Here's Claude with more. After they read my rights, we'll go back inside the house. And my phone's ringing off the hook. As you imagine. Well, back in the days, you know, you had to answer machines. So good buddy, my Mike, and we're still good buzz this day. He's probably my best friend. His wife calls me, the game wards just left there, left his house. Yeah, they get him. Yeah, but they didn't have much on him. I mean he didn't. He wasn't out sure with me per sae that every day, like why when I was going out. But but his wife was in panic mode. She said, Claude, if you're there, answer the phone. She said, the game wasn't just left my house, she said, and I think you're on the way to yours, and they would not let me. You're here in this message as there and everybody's right there, all the game right there and listen to everything. And so if he had the illegal deer meat or turkeys, and you better to get him out. And I was like, really, Jen, I said, can you shut up now? You know what I mean? But yeah, of course she was just trying to do me a favor. If you remember, RTI told us this exact same thing from the law enforcement side. In the intro, I said that Claude's son, Cast was four years old nine. Here's the story. Claude loves to tell. And we're back in the bowling alley with cass they all come down on him, and so we're outside and I say it was June warm out and my son had said, look the one of wildlife officers and said, look at that crawl dad hole right there, and uh, game works and dies and I don't think that's a crawl dad hole. So he was there when the wildlife officers were searching your house and he was like three years old four So so Cassie, Yeah, he said there's a there's a crawl Dad in that hole there. Well said he, I don't. He said, I don't think he has a crawl that a whole bud and uh he said, oh yeah, here's it is. He determined he's gonna show him. So he went and got his mom's uh bucket, and he water flowers in and you know, took a spout off, but I was pulling water right into that hole. Took it fill to clear up. Nothing coming out of it yet. So he went back and fills it back up, poors her in there again. Waits there pretty seeing his great crown. He jumped up and down. So this is a technique you knew would work. Get the crawdads. Yeah, which the pond one too far? It was like, I mean, it's little ways actually, so you you remember when this happened, so you have memories of the law coming to your house to get your dads going on. I thought it was I thought it was a fun day. I don't know, yeah, not on. These people were here and we're having a good time. You let me teach you how to catch your crowdad and big guy come here, man. I didn't read game on Friends Friends. Yeah, now that's a good story. They didn't teach those game boardings about crawdads. And hey, not to digress, but Cass called it a crawdad and not a crayfish, which indicates to me that Ohio might actually be Southern Louisiana is exempt they call him crawfish down there. And another thing, Claude called it spotlighting, not jack lighting, because nobody from the South ever called spotlighting a deer jacklighting. Let's talk about something that matters, and I'll tell you what matters is wives. Wives usually have a strong intuition, especially when it comes to their husband's friends. If you want to talk about wit and instinct, a wife is often like a lightning rod for this kind of stuff, but oddly Misty has always really liked to print reeves. Anyway, here's Claude talking about how he still didn't really know why the law was at his house, and even then, I still I'm I'm racking my brain, is like, I don't know what's going on. I mean, no one's really told me anything. So I go outside and they're at my house for hours. At that time, I was remodeling my house. Uh, just doing a little remodelling. I mean I have a money I was just trying to make the place look a little nice. And what it was so well, my wife had come outside when I was sitting on uh I think had a bench out there in front of my poor chair. I was sitting on it. I was bummed, as you can imagine. And they have your handcuffed or so they knew you weren't gonna run off. No, I mean they had Yeah, of course, I don't what they had before because I didn't know. And they're searching your house. Oh yeah, they're tearing apart I mean every inch of her. So my wife's come out the front door and she whispered the air and she said, Bob and donn I bet you. And I looked at her like she was crazy, I said, in the ho she said, I bet it is. She said, you thought you guys were friends. She sniffed it out. Yeah. But you know, she never did even what was going on. She was always oh, because RT would call me quite a bit, and I think if he was really being honest for himself, he could tell you that that Bob would call me a lot to say you want to go out tonight, you know, and it would really take my wife off. She was like, you know, Claide, you're gonna get yourself in trouble. Wives. No, they just always know. So I guess when that all happened. When I finally did figure out, I think one of the officers he hand me all my charges, all these papers. I'm like, huh, then we're all mine, huh, because it was a bunch wit. What did it? How did it read? It? Just on the front of it, it was that um it was all written up from the court saying all these charges and I take pages and pages that man, it looked like a catalog, you know what I mean? And I said, uh. I looked at him. I said them's all mine. He said, them's all yours. And then the one officer asked me if I knew Bob Thomas. So when he said that, as I go, okay, that was my friend, I just got me right there. This was a tough moment for Claude. I don't know that I'll ever know, or at least I hope I never do what it feels like for someone you thought was your friend to actually not be. And what makes this so wildly interesting is that RT, even thirty years later, still has mixed feelings about it. And we know he can't blame Ourt. He was just doing his job. He was defending the law. I just think it's interesting to look at it from the other side. And this goes back to our original commentary on what a weird human experience and experiment that undercover work is, you know, And at that time when that happened, like say, I'm early authorities and I just felt like someone kicked me right in the teeth, I mean, kick the legs right out from under me. So here this guy that I thought out with my friend, that we did a lot together, and I had a lot of fun together and had a I mean, it's it's hard to say a real friendship. But you said to me earlier that you can't fake that kind of Oh, absolutely not, I mean, and I feel like that's what ARTI told me when I sat across from him as he said, Man, he said, Claude, it was a good guy, he said. He said, any other situation, we probably would have been really best friends. Yeah, we had. We had a lot of fun together. I mean, we really did. I mean, just like saying, there's just some stuff you can't fake. I mean there's there are times that I can remember leaving looking back or t would you know, he'd be laughing so hard, you know, teared becoming out of his eyes. I mean that that was on a lot of different occasions. Getting back to that question, Um, you know, Uh, I was so depressed to think that that happened to me. You know, It's like I couldn't get over for a long time to think that that he'd done that to me, And um, I almost wanted revenge, you know. And uh, but you know, he was doing his job. That's what he gets paid to do. And that's how I look at it now, looking back at it, I mean, he's here to do his job. And he did his job. But for me, it was just it was not real. I mean that that I actually happened to me. I mean you you can ask my wife and that them times. For uh first two or three weeks, I didn't want to be here. I didn't, you know, I just didn't. I was in a real bad place. It was a dark time for you told that it was, yeah, and then I just didn't know if I could pull out of it. I mean, it's for the audience that's listening right now. Unless you're there, you know, you do. You can't have that feeling unless you know, unless this actually happened to you. But with that said, I brought it all myself. It wasn't like anybody twist my arm to make me do what I done. From the very beginning, I appreciated Claude's honesty about this whole situation, but also how he takes full responsibility for it. You'll never hear him blame anyone else, and that's rare. Human nature, in its wild pursuit to justify its own action, often relieves its burdened by shifting blame. But not Claude. Maxwell. You remember me saying I wasn't the most popular guy in Mcconnellsville after bringing Operation Redbug to the national stage after thirty years of it being not there. I'm pretty sure much of the town believes that this thing was heavy handed, that in parts of the operation these guys were entrapped. I'm just reporting what I heard on the streets of Mcconnellsville, not from Claude. But even if it was heavy handed, the operation was valuable. Let me cast a metaphor into the river of your mind to the caribou herd as a whole. The lone animal that gets eaten by the wolf is lost, but impacts them more than the living. It's death changes the life of the whole herd. They adapt, they re route, they become stronger. The wolf makes the caribou strong. In this metaphor, the undercover work is the wolf, and by picking some of the stragglers off, in a sense, it purifies and strengthens the whole herd, which the whole herd would be the hunting community. Though you and me weren't suspects and Operation Redbud, it has impacted our life. You know, if you're a hunter the herd nose, are you with me? This type of law enforcement is necessary for our system of wildlife management to be successful. And we'll see that getting caught by the wolf can change your life for the better. Isaac. That was probably way too deep of a metaphor. I don't know if people are going to get it. Oh we're recording. Here's Claude. What were you actually charged for and what was the punishment for it? And I know you can't cite all seventy four wildlife violations. That's how I mean. I hadn't sety four. I think most of the uh finds, the citations I got out of seventy four of them, you know a lot of them more, you know, you might have been hunting without hunter orange or maybe. Um I'm just trying to think of some of the crazy charges that I had that they wouldn't wasn't serious charges, Okay, I see, you know what I'm saying. They were just they were trying to get you for every single possible thing. Yeah, and I think they did how many actual convictions of killing the legal game up to seventy four? You know, I used to have that big pamphlet. I think I throwed it away because I wanted to worship every member away that of that day, I think um I had got charged for killing seven turkeys or maybe eight turkeys and seven or eight deer in that eighteen months or whatever. It was okay that we hung out. So did you go to jail? Well no, I remember being incord so with fifteen wildlife officers they're coming, or fifteen vehicles. They didn't handcuff you and take you to jail. No, no, Now, if I had in cooperated, yes, I've been on my way to jail. So it's mainly fines. And then they they revoked your Ohio hunting license for life. Yes, yeah, how much infines? Did you can? I ask you that? How much infines? The jeff to play eleven thousand? Yeah? Actually the crazy as this is when I had hired this turney out of Lancashire, Ohio. But anyhow, he come down representative me, Well, thanks for We're just going to do a plea bargain. Okay, I'm guilty of this many charges, I think I end up. I think I was guilty of like seventy of them probably, I mean I was guilty of all of them. Everything that that ort honestly got me for. I was guilty of I mean even back then that was your position, just like I'm guilty. I'm just gonna yeah, basically basically because my attorney had looked over the films and things. He said, well, they really got you, Claude. And then I said, I know that. So all we can do right now is a good court and make the best of it. I'm trying to think they gave me this big fine and he turns to me in the worstiper here he said, it's gonna do now. He's gonna do give me, uh six months in jail and eleven thousand on her fine. So he whispered down the air and he said that's not too bad, Claude. He said, if I as you, I take that play. I said, I'm not doing six months in jail. He looks at me, said really, I said yeah really. So he gets up and says he makes a play to the court, you know, and said, you know, Claude's got two little kids. Can show some land and see. So the judge thinks about it for a second and kinds back and said, yeah, he's gonna give me six months house arrest. So I gotta wear a leg bracelet for six months. Was that was that a stiff enough penalty. Do you think, like if you were just looking at this from the outside, you knew what you were doing, and like in your life, what would have Because I mean, all these punitive penalties that the court systems would enact would ultimately be designed to get people on the right track. I mean, say whatever somebody want. I mean, was it stiff enough? Was it too stiff? What do you think looking back? I get yeah, I thought it was almost two stiffs. And let me tell you why, because I wasn't making no money whatsoever then, I mean, eleven might as well have been a hundred thousand. Yeah, of course. I mean I was like, I was like, how in the world am I ever gonna pay eleven thousand? Allar fune off? I mean, I don't have that kind of money. I didn't. I didn't. Then. Was that was that helpful to you in the process of being reformed? I think it was. I mean, because you know, and I'm not saying this to talk specifically about you, but people all over the country talk about how wildlife violators get off too easy. Yeah, I mean, really like some of this stuff going on because it's not narcotics or or some kind of abuse, you know, like human abuse or violence or when when these things go to court, a lot of time judges have compassion on this guy or leniency and then but in the wildlife space, it can upset people because because you know, as a culture, we value wildlife and we value being able to go and hunt, and we have this thing in North America that's really unique to the world and that guys like me and you can go hunt and hunt turkey, and I mean, like it's unusual. What do you think about that? I mean, do you do you think judges should do what they did to you? Yeah? I mean, you know, listen, I probably had everything that come to me as you know what I got I had coming to me. I probably need to stop. I mean, I I want to say out of control I was. It was not right by no means, and so what I got come to me and with ur t uh he you know, he did his job him, don did. I'm not uh saying that, uh that he should have done way done, because that's what he was able to do. On this side, it's easy to say the poachers got what they deserved and leave feeling good about the steaming hot plate of justice. They got served, which is an entirely justifiable position that most of us have almost all the time. And I'm not trying to make us soft on criminals and act like they're the victims. But what I am saying is that every situation has two sides worth thinking about. I want to ask Claude about re entering his life after the conviction. You just you felt the just kind of the social shame of what happened. I mean, you were embarrassed by it. You were like, what were the what were the feelings going on? Yeah, I mean I was um as people like say, the people that didn't know me, It was about to find out the things that I've done. So you know, majority of these people that I worked around had no clue you know, spotlighting turkey hunting and whatever. But you know, even even then when I was doing it, I never really I never even thought it was that big a deal. I guess now today, Yeah, I mean, looking back, it was a big deal. I mean, you're breaking a law. I mean that's just it's not uh, it's not a sportsman thing to do. So yeah, it was. It was really hard going back to work. I didn't want to go back to work. I wanted quick because I didn't want to see nobody. I didn't want to be around nobody because I knew I knew what was gonna take place. I mean, it never ended for months, people wanting to know the story, and people criticizing me for who for what I've done, And then there's people that you know that stood beside me too. You know, you gotta have a little bit of support or something like that happened to you. It was a bad time, so talented was Uh, how did you recover from it? I mean, because really, your story, it's so it's so unusual that you would be in that position when you're thirty and then now you're sixty, and like I said, I mean, I I feel like I'm sitting across from an intact man. I mean not just because of your business success, That's not what I'm talking about, just your family's intact. And I don't know your son's well, but I've met one of them and I just just yeah, it's unusual. Great kid, I mean, he's Uh. I honestly think if I hadn't had a family, then my wife was royal support of me, and she always has been probably the greatest woman, I know, um, but yeah, so having a having a big family like I had just my brothers and sisters and and just from my family. And then not to mention Heidi's family, I mean, all of her family were super close. You know, we're they all supported you through this. Yeah, they didn't know disown, you know. I remember her dad telling me one day. I think it might have been two or three days after it all come down, but I remember being on a couch. I don't think I got off the couch for a week. I mean, I was that bummed. I mean, I just didn't want to talk to nobody. Well, he'd come out and I had just told his son the story the other day, but I said, I can remember being really depressed. So the good guy that her dad is, he tried to, uh make make things better for me. He said, well, Claude, he said, you know you're only up from here. You're gonna go up from here. He said, you just you gotta pull yourself together and uh and make the best of it. He said, we all love you. He said, you know, just you made a few mistakes, and ain't we all. I might said yeah or whatever, but I didn't want to talk to nobody. And as you can imagine, how many times my phone would ring a day, people wanting to know or I just I just never took a phone call. I just but I knew at some point, you know, I'm gonna have to get back to work. And uh, if it wasn't for the fact of having a wife and a four year old old son, and then uh, my daughter Adrian, she was just born, I probably wouldn't have went back to work. I probably would have quit and started a new life somewhere, or maybe wouldn't even made it that far, you know what I mean, Because I was not in a good place. Then, by every indicator possible to gauge a human, Claude was at the very bottom. But as painful as it is to be there, Claude's father in law was right. The only place to go is up, and being at the bottom is often necessary to get people going in the right direction. The bottom isn't always bad. Part of Claude's conviction was a lifetime suspension of his Ohio hunting license. That's a hard slap for a man whose blood runs thick with the love of wild places and beasts, even being someone who was abusing the law. He was fueled by the same mysterious draft that has caught so many of us. After seven years, Claude was advised to go to the county judge and ask for the punishment to be revisited, and to his surprise, the paperwork on the revocation of his license was never completed and he was actually eligible to buy his Ohio license anyhow. He um, he told me, I could, you're good to go get your license, which I don't think at the time or local game warden was very happy about that. But from that day on, I did things right. I gotta get myself on the right track here, and you know, even taking my son hunting and stuff. You know, I took my son hunting a lot. I tried to teach him right and and he does things right, you know what I mean, He's he's a good kid. But anyhow, yeah, that's a that's a big transition. I mean, you you kind of make it sound simple, and I realized it's it wasn't really simple. Let's be honest. I mean, even though what I did get my license back, I said, man, I sure miss him days of just going out there having fun. But I knew better you know, and I never did. I don't. I never went out early turkey hunting, early deer hunting, nothing squirrel hunting. I mean, from that day on, I just you know, I want by the rules. That's just how you know. If it's one turkey season, that's what I killed, one turkey, And if it's one deer's one deer. I just it's just looking back of how I was then. I mean, I was a little one I'll control. But it feels good to be on the right path. I mean, it's way better, you know, it's uh, it makes you a better person. Yeah, it really does. Well, it sounds like there was it was a it was a broader and I'm speculating, but I'm speculating off pretty hard evidence that I have of not knowing you well, but but seeing what you've done inside this community and just talking me to hear face to face. Is that. I mean, it sounds like your life took a turn for the for the better and a whole lot of places. I mean, because somebody that's partying and wild and disregarding game laws is not going to be able to do what you've done because you, I mean, you have a very successful outdoor store here in Mcconnell'sville. You opened up this bowling alley. You've got multiple I mean, you're a successful guy, you're fan and when I meet your family, your family is intact, which in today's world is a big deal. Sure. I mean to have kids that respect you and have a great family and very fortunate. I mean, it sounds like you A lot changed probably from those days, Am I right? Oh yeah, it has. I mean it's uh a lot has changed, uh, which is really hard to believe that even looking back that all my life, you know how much things have changed from me. I mean, I think when you do right people people will notice it. We do a lot for our community. I mean we really do. I say no to nobody, you know what I mean, if someone comes in wants a donation for whatever it might be. You know, it might be a family member sick, or we just help out. We do. I mean, it's just what we are. But quite a far cry from what I used to be. Not that I never looked at myself as a horrible person, you know what I mean when I was when I was growing up. I mean I had a great family, when I had eight brothers and sisters. You know, and where are the birth order next to the youngest. Yeah, yeah, my mom, dad, with great people, all my brothers and sisters, I mean, and we're all tightened it. I mean we're of course, none of my family looked down on me from what I had done. I mean because you know, blood, stick and water, but you know, they realized I've done wrong. I was in a good place in my world at that time, especially after six when the Thursday of June sixteenth and ninety six, a lot of good day. Yeah, that's when all the O, D and R is at my house. It was almost like unbelievable, man, you've gained my respect, and that you were willing to talk to me. I mean, I I think it takes a lot of guts for you just to even just talk about it, which you didn't ask for anybody to bring this all back up, you know, And you didn't ask for me to come up here and talk to you. I asked, Yeah, I was listening to your podcast, but r T And then that's uh. And that's when so somebody somebody sent you the Burgaries podcast and said, Claude, you got you gotta listen to this. Yes, what did you think when you heard us talking about Operation Redbud. Wow, I was kinda I was, I was, I was set back, and then I ain't gonna lie. I was like, uh dang, I said, Uh. Then that many years and they're still talking about me and uh. And I thought we relieved when we bleeped your name out, I was, I mean, yeah, I mean because there would really know needing using my name. I guess yeah. I think everybody knows anything about Operation Redbudd, knows who who was involved regionally, and that's what That's what I found out. Again, this this new new stuff to me. Just in the last couple of months. I would have never heard of this. I think regionally, Operation Red Butt is real well known. Nationally maybe not. And and I've shared this with you privately, is that when I did this, like, I never really thought about the repercussions of it. And that's part of the reason I wanted to come to you today, because I mean, you're the guy we were talking about. Yeah, we bleeped out your name, but still part of this part of the story was you. And then it never occurred to me that because it really we were trying to highlight like wildlife agents and law enforcement and and so for that, I guess I in a way apologized to Uh. I mean, I'm not upset that I did the story. I mean, I'm not, but but it probably brought some something into your life that you weren't asking for, but people coming and saying, hey, look at this. I was a little, uh, was a little heasitant to do this podcast today. I mean, my son's want to said, now, Dad, you need to do it. You need to just do it. He's I think we'll do you some good. And uh, even last night I didn't. I I was kind of up and down all and I think about and uh, maybe what to say or or even how to say it, I guess, but I don't know. I honestly, I think it's made me a better person. I mean, not this podcast, but just a better person than what I used to be. I mean, heck, who knows if if it hadn't happened to me thirty years ago, who knows where I'd be. It was almost unbelievable. Claude said, you get the feeling that it's hard for him to look back and believe that this actually happened, especially when you look at how successful his life has been. Since them. This story is about the stereotypes that we all have at different times, about people that are sometimes just wrong. It's a story of how people can change and be different. It's a story about how some actions don't always lead to the outcomes we think they will. But at its core, at a more philosophical level, I think this story is about repentance and forgiveness. These words are fundamental to the human experience. Repentance is ultimately taking responsibility for your actions and making changes so the bad stuff doesn't happen again. Forgiveness is in essence forgetting an offense. Humans crave these things. We want people who have done wrong to be sorry, and punitive justice can be part of that repentance, And when we do wrong, we deeply want people to forgive us. When I was in my early twenties, I had a moment of clarity of what forgiveness was. I had had a wretched nightmare of those where you've done something terrible and unbearable. Stress is caving in around you, and the dream I had stolen a car and was running from the police. I deeply regretted what I had done, but it was too late. I couldn't undo it. The tension of the dream grew to such height that my resting state was unable to contain it, and I awoke in a burst of consciousness. The feelings of regret and consequence lingered into reality, until after a few moments of looking around, I realized that I was in my bed. I actually hadn't stolen the car. It was only a dream. A gush of relief poured over me like cool water. I felt as if my life had restarted. In that moment. I thought walked across my mind that I would never forget, and the thought was, this is what true forgiveness is like. It's like a dream that never actually happened. It was powerful, and the implication of that was what if I could deliver that kind of forgiveness to the people in my life who had done me wrong? And what if I could receive that kind of forgiveness for the stuff and the people that I had wronged. As humans, we have a powerful tool at our disposal that apes and mules don't have the luxurious option of dispensing or receiving, And that tool is a choice that we have to extend a functional forgiveness to others and to receive forgiveness. I think our society could use a refresher on how to use the powerful human tools of repentance and forgiveness rather than living with bitterness and shame. That's not being soft on crime, that's being strong on cure. I'd like to extend a genue wine bear Grease hat tip to Claude Maxwell and to RT Steward. It took a lot of guts for both of these guys to tell their story. I can't thank you enough for listening to Bear Grease. We're putting all we have into these stories, and I deeply value every person that I have the opportunity to interview, and I deeply value every one of you guys that engage so deeply into these stories. I thank you for your support of our podcast, and you can help us by sharing this podcast with your family and friends and leaving us a review on iTunes. And you can follow me on social media at Clay Underscore Nucomb. Instagram is my main platform, but I'm also on the TikTok with all the kids, hipsters and data snatchers. Maybe they'll snatch you up this story. Who knows. Have a great week, and I look forward to discussing this story with everybody on next week's Render. Whoa, who whoo, whoam