00:00:00 Speaker 1: M. My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of the bear Grease podcast called the bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast. We're going weekly, guys, and I want to explain this very clearly. The bear Grease Podcast is a documentary style podcast that we release every other week. We are now going to start releasing on this same stream on the bear Grease Podcast what we call the bear Grease Render. So every other week you will hear a conversation between me and my buddies where we do just what we said, render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast. So you're gonna be hearing from us weekly from now on. It's spend years since I've worked on it. It has gotten pretty bad. Do you have a decent outhhood? Years ago I started to get it, like, I started to get that that that there's a certain characteristic about it. But it was in my truck. Okay, I gotta get it, Brent. Let's hear your best out man, very nice. Hey, this is the bear Grease Render podcast. Okay, this is the Beargrease Surrender and the Bargrease Surrender. If this is your first time listening to the podcast, the Bargrease Podcast is a documentary style podcast where we explore all kinds of stuff, all kind of interesting stuff, and have these documentary style podcasts. We do that. We release those every other week, so by the time this comes out, there's gonna be like six Bargrease podcasts out. This is the Beargrease Surrender Boys, and the Bargrease Surrender is every other week. So now the Bargrease Podcast is weekly because every other week we're gonna meet and have like a informal conversation that reflects and dissects. Ah, that's good. We're gonna use that reflects and dissects the Beargrease documentary style podcasts. Okay, we're bowling a cabbage down. That's right, we're bowling the cabbage down, chewing the tobacco thin as they say. So before we get started it here where we're talking about the what the render is, I want to introduce my guests. Okay, so we are we are at the the global headquarters of Bear Hunting Magazine and Meat Eater South. Okay, like that, and uh I have. Really every single one of you is like you wouldn't be here if you weren't like super important in my life. And most of you, well, all of you have been involved in some way in either the Bargrease podcast or in one of the guy's cases. Not the Barghreas podcast, but my former Barony Magazine podcast. I won't mention his name to my direct left to my to my left is my dear friend Brent Reeves, who could uh, Brent Reeves could teach a doctoral level class. I'm reading this, okay, Brent Reeves could teach class us. He wrote this, This is Brent spio. No, this is my bio. And Brent Brent Reeves could teach a doctoral level class on folksy Southern Saints. And ironically he has also seen two Arkansas Mountain Lions. Brent was also filming when in sixteen the big color phase of Baring, Saskatchewan that's hanging on the wall right over there, touched my arrow and sent. You know, Brent was the one like sitting right behind me. So Brent, good to have you here, good to be here. Man. To Brent's left is Dr Daniel Rupe, who, now that makes two times I've called you doctor in your life, and that'll be the last time I'm gonna do it one time. So Dan was on the acron podcast. Okay, Dan is man. Dan's like, I'm not even gonna get into really what he does, like neither with Brent. This is just when I thank you guys. This is what I think of. Dan has never combed his hair and has a aired like a viking, and ironically he himself as well, has seen in Arkansas Mountain Lion. I've seen it, which we want to get to later. All Right, I'm gonna call that particular podcast not a I'm gonna call it a docu drama, stirring up controversy. Me, you and Gary gonna get jackets made believers Jack. Okay, And interesting fact about Dan that you guys may not have known. Dan Rupe was the first guest on the Bare Hunting Magazine podcast. Did you know that? I didn't even know that I was there? You were actually you didn't know we were recording that in British Columbia, Me, you and Devin Jewel. That was the first one. Dan, It was a turning point in my life. Yeah, consciously apparently. Okay, So that's Dan Rupe. To his left is Dr Malacott Nichols. Now I call this guy doctor or sometimes because he just has the look. He didn't get his off the internet. Okay, now, Dr Maliki Nichols here his credentials. He was on the Burgar's podcast episode number two, the Thing about al Hooters. He was the guy that I interviewed about the social science question of correlations and how they can be connected or not. But Dan, Dr Malachi Nichols is a current Arkansas license holder hunting license holder. He has a yeah, show us you're hunting license and alikai there it is. He's pulling it out of his wallet just to prove it. Dr Maliki Nichols is a one time He's got He's also got an Arkansas concealed care licenses. He's got a hard card and the ducks down. Okay. Dr Maliki Nichols is also a one time coon hunter. One time. That's the only how you've ever been on. They've never got an invitation back. No, but here here's what I think of when I think of Maliki. He is the only person that has given me the stiff arm on a legit outdoor related partnership venture requests. I mean, I mean, Okay, Malachi and I we've talked about this before publicly and we've worked it out together privately, So there's no this is not like an offense that I need to like go to my brothers about. No. No, No No, we've already done it. But it's just like there's just things that you remember about people that you never forget. No. Me and Malachi we've fried fish a couple of times together for our wives and families, and we just had a great time. I was like, man, Malachi loves to fry fish. And yeah, we talked about fishing a little bit here and there, and then I was like, likes to fry fish, likes to fish. He's my friend. How about we going partners on a boat? Malachi? Is my question? Hard? No, I mean just like he went from like twenty five miles per hour to like seventy interstate real quick. He Yeah, it was like, I want to get fishing poles first, you know, I want to take small steps. Do you want to keep it at his house for your convenience? So okay, you're not the first one. And then so to his left is Josh Spillmaker Sands, doctor Sands, doctor Spillmaker. Okay, true story. I bet none of you know this true story. Ten years ago, Josh Spillmakers mustache inspired me to read a book on the Baring land Bridge. This is not a joke. Ten years ago, Josh Spillmakers mustache inspired me to read a book on the Bearing land Bridge, which got me interested in early human history and anthropology. And he is a legendary adult onset fly fisherman. No, let me tell you the story. One day, me and Josh were standing there and I mean, you gotta admit, the guy's got a great beard. But the mustache, the way that it was like it was connecting to continents, that's what That's what it felt like. I said, Josh, you got an awesome mustache. And I was like, that reminds me of the Burying land Bridge. That night, I went home on Amazon and ordered a book that's right up there, um and it was all about the Burying land. I read the book, was fascinated, and I think about all the time, and now I've got to I've tried to emulate your mustache. So you're welcome, America. You're welcome. Okay. That's Josh and then our guest of honor. He's got the chair, My father, Gary Nukem Man. So, Dad, you've been on by the time this comes out, you've been you will have been on the Barriers podcast a couple of times. Okay, So this is the way. This is what I think of when I think of Gary Nuclem. Once while in Vietnam. This is a this war story, true story. Once while in Vietnam, he reported to his commanding officer wearing only a bath towel after he was summoned to report to the officer while he was in the shower. Okay, that's part one. We're gonna need a little bit of explanation. Number two. Gary Nucom is single handedly credited with keeping the myth of the Black Panther alive in North Arolicia. That give us just a short version of the when you report it to your officer and your bath Now, well it's you know Vietnam, you're always looking for something to keep your saying it. This little clerk me in and he was like, this is serious. You gotta go see the captive. So I just walked out neckd with my towel over. He didn't even started hitting towards his office. Of course, by the time I got there, I covered myself up. But anyway, what you were trying to say was bro let me at least get out of the shower. Is it that important? That was kind of that was kind of like the it had to be so important, it didn't matter I was going so anyway, it was kind of funny. Great, great, Well, okay, now that we've done proper introductions, let's get down to business here boys. Um So, the Bargrease Render is the short version of the Bargeras podcast where we talked about it. Man, I've had the time of my life building the When this comes out, there will be six Burgeras podcasts out, and the podcast is formatted in such a way that it's it's it's hard for me to like, I when I get done making one of these, I want to call one of you guys and talk about it, like and there. There's so much more that can be said because we're trying to make it an efficient listen and so you know, it's fairly scripted, you know, scripted in the sense that everything is thought out, but it's also you know, there are sections of of informal interviews but for instance, you you will hear interviews on the Burgaries podcast with experts with whoever, like Dan Rupe Uh that we talked for probably an hour Dan and I whittled it down to like seventeen minutes easy. A lot of fluff in it, but so like this is gonna give kind of me an outlet to like say some other stuff, to make corrections. There's a couple of corrections. Man, when you're spouting off this much information, boys, you know sometimes you get it wrong. Tall tales, tall tales. Um. But it also is you guys a chance to like talk to me about any perceptions that you have, anything I could have done better, um. And so I know all you guys have something to say. We're at a little bit of a disadvantage on the first Bargera Surrender because we've already had six podcasts come out, okay, and so as we get on the weekly schedule, there's gonna be like one podcast that's gonna come out, and so it will be a little bit more focused. But so so on this one, we're just gonna kind of hit and miss over the different six podcasts that have come out. But what I haven't had a chance to do on the Bargrease podcast is talk about the name beargrease. Do do y' all know why it's bargrease? Do y'all understand the metaphor? Is the marketing strong enough that you understand the metaphor? This is an open question. What are you talking about of a podcast you don't understand? Good? Okay, so you don't understand, No, listen. Beargrease is literally, I'm holding a jar in my hand right now, is literally the rendered fat of a black bear. Okay, I put on your deep philosophical thinking caps. Okay. At one time, bear grease was a medium of currency, and it was a staple of life on the on the American frontier. Beargrease stayed stayed good longer than pork lard. So like if you were if you homesteaded in Arkansas or Tennessee or Kentucky or wherever, you would render down this fat and it would be extremely valuable to you. It was a form of currency. Did you know that an eel of bargrease, that is an archaic unit of measure for a beargrease was the tanned neck hide of a deer sewn together. Beargrease poured into it and then it was sealed up, and an eel of grease was like a unit of currency. It is just perchance, boys, that we the US dollar isn't nickname an eel, okay, like it, but it's nicknamed a buck because a buck skin was worth about one U. S. Dollar. Actually I'm making that up. That bare eel was almost almost the same thing. So okay, philosophical thinking caps This at one time was highly important and everyone would have known about it. And this has been like normal, like you'd have had it in your house, you'd had it in your house, you'd had any more. About Old Trough, Arkansas, Well, that's that is a that is a city artifact of what I'm talking about, because it was a city in northern Arkansas that had a processing plant for bar oil and they ship that bar oil down the white That's right. Yeah, you know, the first time I du rectly met you was through a jar bear grouse. Your daughter came into my class. I was teaching teaching school and your daughter came into my class. She had a she had a ten fox hide on her left shoulder. This is this story, true story. Ten fox hide on her left shoulder and a jar bear grease, and she just walked into my classroom like nothing's happening. It was just a regular was Tuesday. She walked in, you know, with this with this fox hide in this jar bear grouse and she said, my dad sent this with me. I'm gonna put it on the window, supposed to tell us what the weather is gonna be like. So I want to know if it's gonna rain before we go outside. And she sat down and it's like, I have been in Arkansas like a year, and I'm thinking, like where am I at right now? And that is the first time I indirectly met Clay nucle I've never met him before and met him through his daughter with a jar bearer Jar Bargers. That's awesome. So I had forgotten about that, and that's why this jar is where it is. This is my this is my weather forecasting jar Burgers. You see this chart right here. I'll send you boys home with one of these one day. This is a chart. This is a chart made by by Gordon Websat out in New Mexico that I you can read the weather. It's man that bargaries changes all the time. It really does, every single day. It looks different um okay. So now we've all come together to this point of that Burgaries was like this valuable thing, and then now it's not. It's erased from people's memory. I mean like erased, like you go and like pull the three thirty million people in the United States, I mean like point oh oh oh one percent would like kind of know what it was. The Beargrease podcast is we are exploring things that are forgotten but relevant, searching for insight in unlikely places, like telling the weather off of jar burgheris you know where that came from? Alachi was the Native Americans Channel seven? Then is that where you get your weather? No, Native Americans in the southwestern US. They would take the dried and scraped bladder of a deer pour bearg grease in it, and when it dried it became almost translucent and you could see through it like a glass jar, and they forecasted the weather based upon the bear grease in that jar. Thanks forgotten but relative insight and unlikely places. And our tagline is we're going to tell the story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land. And so bear grease is a metaphor something that's forgotten and man, bear grease. We use it for all kinds of stuff. We use it for frying, We use it for pastries, We use it for oil and conditioning leather. We use it for rubbing down gun barrels. Um. We use it for forecasting the weather. You see this bar of soap right here. You can go to the meteor dot com and see me and Colby Moorehead making this bar of soap out of bear fat. It's animal tallow, lie fat soap. Incredible stuff. If I had more of it, I'd give you all some, but I don't, and I gotta stay clean somehow. But that I'm telling you that that lie soap is incredible. Is it in your shower? You bet you it is. I've actually got something. Yeah, I'd like to have some and not like to have something for my time. You want to bring something, Man, we're not getting paid. This is actually a multi level marketing. Well we're soap so guys, That's why I brought you here. You can get on he can get it on the ground. Yeah, I actually have some of it in my shower. Colby give me. Oh yeah, it's great. It's great. So it's great, so good for your skin, good so so you see the metaphor so like we're we're like basically that gives us this broad window to explore all these different things, and for instance, the inside like inside the Mountain Lion podcast like that was like a like the first podcast was called The Myth of the Southern Mountain Lion, which was a really fun podcast where I interviewed people A few people that have seen mountain lions claim to have anyway, yeah, yeah, And and I interviewed a biologist and they interviewed a psychologist about how people cognitive bias, like if you're it's a wonder I've not seen a mountain lion because my dad believes in black panthers? Do you see what the cognitive bias means? If your dad told you there was something there, even if there was a chance to defend yourself, dad, do you believe in oxygen? I do? Oh? Can you see it? No, I saw a mountain lion, Garrett, you see I saw a black panther pants. Did you question after you listen to that podcast? Did you question yourself? I questioned my friends, a circle of friends and the people that I called your relationships, the dynamic of that relationship, I thought who was a psychologist. What's he going to cognitive? What was cognitive? And the problem the problem is that no one ever told me there wasn't mountain lions in Arkansas, and no one ever told me there was, And so you're saying you're totally unbiased and the one you saw it was just like for real, yes, are you convinced you saw it hundred percent? What was it behind bars or on a chain or outside of a restaurants wearing a pink tutu? No, I told you in the podcast there It wasn't like I was by myself and my wife was with me. Well there you go, Hey, you don't have to defend yourself. I'm just kidding. The the point is, well I don't believe you, but but um, the insight though, Like so I'm trying to describe like the Burgers podcast, because somebody could be listening to this and never even heard the Burgers play. The insight came inside of like we explored this thing, Like there's this artifact and I like that word of from when lions were actually here because indisputably, there are a lot of people that claim that ce mountain lions that didn't And I absolutely a d percent believe every one of you. I said it on the podcast too, I said, I punched somebody in the teeth if they didn't believe you, didn't anything, but bands went on there. But the insight came in just looking at how we want to believe our brother Like do you remember at the end, like I came to the conclusion like and I didn't fabricate that, like after I talked to all these people, like it was like the redeeming factor of it all was that, like the way we survived, and it's natural for me, I trust Brent Reeves if he tells me sees a mountain line, then by GOLLI he saw a mountain line. And I'm just giving you guys a hard time. So basically what you're saying is that you can love your friends even when they're delusions. Okay. The deeper thought is is that what has made human successful in the earth is that we want to trust our brother are we It's like a mechanism like because if I can't, it's just it's a mechanism of trust, like I want to believe you, and and then I think that has produced a lot of false mountain Lion you know, sightings from people who maybe had some you know, thought they saw vaccinated, like being vaccinated against line. Very good. Yeah, now, Dad, okay, I've I've credited you with keeping the myth of the black panther alive. How do you feel about that? I think it's wonderful. I mean, it's nice that you put up the truth. I mean, it's it's against science. But I mean, who are you gonna trust you because you saw one? Well, I mean, I don't think that's any of your ba You know, when I go down to Aunt Olie's, she lives in a dog trot house with trees over the road, and at night we're we're awakened by a screaming black panther. I mean, who are you gonna trust? And Ali tell us what a dog trot house is. It's got a porch right down the middle, one side of your kitchen, living room, one side of your bedroom, big trees out. I mean, it was an amazing place. It's an architectural style that they used to use before air conditioning. Yeah, so you would cook on one side and then you would sleep on one side. And the little community was almost as neat as the house. It was Buck snort, Yeah, yeah, Buck snort, Yeah, a lot of panthers. There a panther country, panther country. Hey listen though, no, I on like they're a legitimate mountain line. I mean the biologists even confirmed it. I mean, like, if you listen to the whole even talking about I'm just giving you a hard time. The man confirmed it. Yeah, there are mountains here. Now black panthers. Now, that is where I draw the hard line. And neither of these guys have claimed have seen a black panther. Dad's just just heard him and you just could tell by the sound that it was black. Absolutely so. The but you would be shocked shocked at the number of grown men who, after listening to that whole podcast and listening to Myron means saying science, from the position of science, there has never been documented a melanistic mountain lion ever by science. Did you get some documentation in the mail? In the email, you wouldn't believe the grown men that messaged me, some of them friends of mine, and they're like Clay, I listened to podcast. It was awesome. I believe every word of it. I've seen a black panther though, I mean, like it's like rocks people's boats. Man, I mean like I think like splits families. Like this idea of black panther iron means got off of that interview. Was he like, there's really black panthers. It was like they reached over, turned the taper quarter off of it was like I killed one last year. No no I. I had two different people claimed that their father's well. One of them claimed that their father had shot at a black panther. One of them claimed that their father killed a black panther, killed it with a bow. This I'm telling you, this guy's like I've know this guy, and I'm like, send me a picture, and if he's listening out, I hope he'll send me a picture. I want to believe you. I want to believe him. Um. I had a guy uh called bring up a good point that there is a there is a cat like critter down in South Texas called a jagger undi, which is a cat like critter that lives in deep South Texas and they can be melanistic. Okay, So there's so like, could a jagger undi walk nine miles to Arkansas or four five montes? Possibly? I had another guy say that he thinks black panther sidings are big otters, river otters, because a river otter is black and you don't see him very much. And if and they have big long tails, what do you think of that? JAGGARUNDI there, all the guys are like looking at their phones. Yeah, absolutely, I don't know about that. I mean, think about that at dark, Yeah, I can see that if it's especially dark dusk, just like charcoal, it looks like a mountain lion with a housecat's head. Yeah. I've never even heard of that until you just said it. See if that's what Gary heard? Does that look like what you heard? That's not black? Well, but see the sides panther. But so that could have been melanistic, Got you, got you, got you so um. But you know, the whole point of it was is that jaguars and leopards can't have been documented as melanistic. The American mountain lion has never been documented as melanistic, and so to see a black panther would just be like, well they're not here, so anyway, super fun. And guess what, I am the biggest proponent of black panther in North America. When those guys sent me that stuff. I'm like, heck, yeah, brother, keep it, keep this thing alive. Yeah, keep it alive. Long Live the Black Panther. I love it. Any further comments on episode number one that was I can tell you from a from like a creative standpoint, just kind of like behind the scenes of that podcast. That was the first party I built that podcast, like in January or something. You know, it just came out like in April, and I had all these interviews and had no idea if they how they would stitch together to tell a story. And when Phil Taylor and Mediate did it all put it all together, and I had edited all the little sections and put it together. Man, I was so excited when I heard it. I was just driving down the road and just listen to it, and I was like, Yes, that is what I want to do with burglaries, you know, like tell these interesting stories about rural culture and they're not always gonna be about hunting. Like that pod didn't have anything at all. I mean it was good because it you know, it gave it gave a lot of depth to everything. It wasn't just I saw this when I was nine. Team. There was a whole lot of a build up in basis to all of the all the claims you know, and I witness reports, and then you know, somebody to set back an unbiased view and look at all of it and say, you know, you may have seen something, but the possibilities of it being you know, this particular color or that particular animal, you know, it's you know, while not impossible, you know, highly improbable. Did you just give you know, food for thought? Yeah? And if by unbiased you mean Myron's section, I can support it was far from Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you know what I really liked about it was, um, it kind of made me And this is probably one of thost naive things I'll say, but it just seems like when when we weren't so detached from the land and from wild places, that it might have been easier to trust one another. When you talk about trusting your brother and trusting your fellow man. When when the biggest you know, argument or polarizing you know, one of them is are there black panthers or not? Or are there mountain? Yeah? You know, whereas there's so many things today in our current age that just it just seems like it inhibits that so much more that was thirty years ago, man, almost And you know, I've never had an outlet to even you know, tell that story where in any setting. That was when you saw your Mountain Lions thirty years ago, almost thirty years and your old friend Clay was the only one who cared. He on the one that listened, and then he tried to sell you some so hey, so right here on that you got. This is a surprise. You don't know what this is. That's a number three of the Bear Grease podcast was a shed horned buck of nineteen dear dear friend James Lawrence. This is this is the butck. This is okay. I refused to allow him to give them to me. Man. I was at James's house and this is before he had even heard the podcast, and he just said take those home with you. And he also allowed me turn around and look up here. So on the on the ceiling of my office, there's a picture of my dad, Gary Nucom with his first buck. There's a picture of Steve Schultz, who's my father in law. And there's a picture of James Lawrence back in the mountains of Arkansas with a buck. And that buck that's hanging on the wall is a buck that James Lawrence killed on one of his big soul Low hunts back in the seventies. Now, he killed that one in the sixties. He was like twenty one years old when he killed it. Those three guys are my heroes. That's why they're there. And those there's like sixteen by twenty frame pictures, And what's so cool is they were all about the same age in that picture. So, Dad, how old were you. That's Dad's first buck. Oh, twenty six, twenty seven or something like that, So you were you were older than that when it was nineteen seventy eight. I'm just glad you're thirty years old. Yeah, I'm glad he's wearing clothes. Well no, maybe, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't like most of these listeners. I didn't start hunting until real late in life because my dad was so much like Clay. You didn't want to hang around him and he'd kill you hunting. I mean, you'd go with him and it's like, come on, Dad, it's time to go home, and we're just getting started. I quit. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, So Dad started bo hunting when he was in his late twenties. But you grew up bird hunting and stuff with your dad. He kind of burned you out. Yeah, I had to lay rules down when I got a little older that hey, we're only going for four hours. So there's dad's picture. And then Steve Schultz, my father in law. He was a falconer and that picture was taking the late seventies in Florida, and uh, he's Steve's had an incredible influence on my life. And then James, who in his own unique way has had a significant impact on was like, but this this is the shed horn buck that he picked. He picked up these sheds, those actual sheds are from the sixties. Man, let's look great. He picked up these sheds in in the early nineteen sixties. And actually he told me that he made a set of rattling horns at a one pair because he's got three sets of sheds, but he can only find two. And this is actually two different years sheds. I'm holding a left handler and a right handler. So this was the buck the year before. If you really dissected and held it, you could see a difference in mass, in time length. This was the buck at his prime. Okay, this is a left antler, a five point side. People can go to my Instagram and see a picture of James and me with these deer. Okay, I scored this buck this side as a shed ten twelve years ago, and I just remembered that it scored around a hundred seventy. And that's what I said on the podcast. I kind of got to not doubting myself, but I was just like, man, I wondered that thing. I mean, I just kind of like to re score that thing just to make sure you know I'm I'm interested in the facts. Boys. Yeah, I scored this right before you guys came, and that shed has eighty inches of antler on it, which eighty inches would be eighty times two, which would be one sixty plus the spread, So this would have been a mid one seventies white tips. It's deceptive though. It's got a twenty two inch main beam, eleven inches, ten and a half, seven and a half, five and a half plus two kickers plus you know, four inch mass all the way out ends up being eighty inches. So like, but this is that's the horn. Here's to a to a non hunter, this is like a prized if you were to kill this this buck, this will be up None of us in this room have ever killed a deer that big, much less how many years ago in Arkansas? I mean, that's the that's one of the big things that is the ecosystem in Arkansas that many decades ago. This was that set of antlers might as well have been grown out right in the middle of his hand, like a white tailed unicorn. And after sixty years a hunting, they called you the unicorn. N Is that what this is about? You wanted to talk about my high school day? Is? Yeah? This is you now? Yeah, so Malicho would be like just a really nice white tail deer and uh, now, what what do you guys think of? That podcast? Was great? I listened to it again yesterday. You know what I I thought, How wonderful was it for him to have that story and that, you know, talk about I mean, say, with the are there panthers or not? You want to be trusted, You want to trust your fellow man. Basically none of his family trusted him, you know. But then for you to do that podcast and have all these conversations with them, I mean that had to really I had to be healing for him. It's kind of what I was taken away from him. You know what struck me about it was that he was not a mainstream hunter. He did something different than everybody else. All the hunters that knew how to hunt, had all the experience, were out running dogs and James is sitting there going, now, I saw a deer out here, and I mean he pursued his own thing and and in a way if you know, I don't hunt bucks like that. I mean, it's just too boring for me. So I'm not gonna kill deer like this unless really heavy to carry out the woods. Yeah, yeah, that's right. You've been with me when I picked a little but anywhere I've had a chance to kill him a deer close to that, but it didn't work. Anyway. That's a great point. And see, the whole the whole point of that podcast to me was that James took something that was negative and turned into something positive, going back to insight and unlikely places like that would have crushed most people and and did Jane. I like, it was a little bit tricky for me because James trusts me so much. I feel like like he he would just tell me whatever I asked him to tell and wouldn't question what I was gonna do with that information. If you told him you'd seen a mountain lion, he'd believe. He would believe me. He's never seen one. James Lawrence has never seen a mountain lion. I believed the subject. But like, there was some pretty pretty deep stuff there, and I was drawing conclusions about like him, like that impacted him in a negative way, But he didn't get bitter about it. He and I said this before, he is the guy that you want with you when you're successful. So like he didn't go and oppress people even more like he was oppressed. Like he just instinctively was just like, man, I'm not gonna ever let that happen one of my friends. And you know one thing too, You take Malachi that's not hunted much, and you kill a big buck. He didn't even know it. I mean, those guys might have come at that a little more honest than what we think. It might not have been. I'm kind of jealous of James for killing it. It could have been. I just thought, man, we're out here for the meat. We're trying to survive, you know, forget the horns. I'm worried about my belly. You know, I can see that I think that makes sense. So if you've got a group of guys who are not hunting for sport and there's a socially accepted way to obtain sustenance and he's going against the grain in the use and the quickest way possible, that kind of that. You know. I didn't feel like at all in the podcast though, that his family were like demonized or anything. But it makes a little more sense as to why I couldn't figure out why are they so unkind to this kid? You know, why does some of the men in his life come and be like, man, that's awesome. That's where it was a little bit touchy and I and I had to be careful and I actually asked a few people before I said, do you think that would hurt? Do you think? I mean, I didn't want to disclose more than but but James is the one that said it, you know, I mean, like he just told his story and he was kind of he was kind of discounted. And that is also pretty normal too. I mean, like to kind of discount a kid when they're saying something, and I didn't. And James has the utmost respect for his family too, And you could tell that at the first a podcast when he was talking about his grandmother and grandfather, how much you respected them and how they never said anything negative about anybody. Man. That's that's that's James. But from from if we're talking about the Burgaries podcast and kind of forecasting where this thing is gonna go. These first six episodes I think are all very diverse. You think about it, like we explore this like folklore of the myth of the southern mountain lion. Every podcast I want to have an expert, like a biologist or an academic guy, or just someone who's a subject matter expert. And then the ideas also that we're interviewing in the field, people that have information about the topic, like Brent and Dad's and mountain lions. And then here Daniels said, Daniel's like waving his hand, He's like, why what on the first now? And and and uh, every podcast is gonna have kind of this similar, similar structure, but all gonna be very different, like this folklore about mountain lion, anabiology lesson, and then the next one we're talking about the correlation between being a good al hooter and a turkey hunter and talking about Colin Turkey's you did good man? Yeah, well you're getting there. And and then the third podcast was the shed hornbuck in nineteen sixty two, which was just this guy's story. And then the fourth podcast was Death of a Bear Hunter, which was fantastic. Man meant okay, that one was a historically based podcast about a guy in a book and one single story of the book, but we painted the context to the whole scene. You listen to that podcast, you understand what's going on in the eighteen thirties in Arkansas. You understand who gir Stalker was. You understand a little bit about Native Americans that he was hunting with, And like, what what do y'all think of that one? I got a bone to pick with you on that. Okay, hold this deer horn while you're doing it. Three years this is a weapon. Okay, past the deer horn, if you want to talk three years ago. Three years ago, you said, Brant, have you ever seen this book? Yeah? That one? I never heard of it. He said, you got to read it, he said, And this is why I want you to read it. This is three years ago, he said, I want you to read this book. And when you get done, you and I are going to do a podcast on this. I heard him say it. I was there, so he's I buy this book and I read this thing from cover to cover. I can speak Germany. And then the next thing, I know, when the podcast comes out of like, I don't hear myself on there? That does That doesn't even sound like. So basically I gave you an assignment to do a book report and then there was no never got a grade. It was absolutely It was incredible, though, man, that that book. I sent that book to my brother and both of my nephews. I think I've read it now. It's incredible book. Yeah, I passed the horn. Hey, well you read it too, Dan, Yeah, you read it years ago. When I just told you the story, Well we were on a bear hunt together and something had reminded you of the story, and you, Clay retold the story and the way that I remembered it was you. You got to kind of the climax of the story and this gentleman gets knocked out, everything goes black, wakes up, his hunting buddies dead. I mean, it's just like just this amazing story. I went and got the book and read it and it was just fantastic. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Well that that story has been on my mind for years. I mean that's the reason I told it. But we're gonna replicate that into other podcasts with historical stories, and I've already got some ideas that i cannot share. I'll share what you got after this? Yeah, a few books you want Brent to read? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Um what Josh your thoughts on that one? Well? I love that one A couple of times. I loved the I mean when you're when you're reading that story, you are transported into the what is happening? And gay Stalker does such a great job Josh, as German describing, does such a great job describing the scene. It's like, who needs Netflix when you got that? You know? You know, and you mentioned this I think maybe on the podcast, but a lot of the places that he talked about in that book, I've been, you know. It's it's it's between here and where I live in Central Arkansas, up and down the Little Red River. Well, you know it's I was serious when I said on the podcast, I was offended at people that I didn't know that story till I was thirty years old. I'm serious. I'll tell you where about. It was not in this country. I was in another country reading a book in a hotel room, and I had no idea that, well, I this this college professor had said, Hey, there's some stories about Arkansas bear hunting. There's all I said, terrible marketing, Like the first half of the book. The guy's not even Arkansas. So I'm just kind of like, oh, this is cool. I mean, you know, it's cool, but like I wanted Arkansas stuff. And when I get to that story, I'm I'm not kidding. I remember where I was sitting when I read that story, and I was just like, holy cow, he was eventually coming. I didn't know that he was. Well, no, no, I knew. All I knew was that Arkansas bear stories. I had no idea that it was just right down the road. And I'm like, why don't we know that? Why don't they teach this in Arkansas public schools? Why? And like just it's just and the and the truth is there's stuff like that littered all across history. Like wherever the people that are listening to this live, stuff happened right where they live. Substantial Emory day, this guy hand him the horn no in okay, going back to the insight like Bear Grease can give you insight beyond what you would have thought it would, is that I really have had the question of why does that story impact me so much? Like why? And and that was my exploration inside of that podcast, is why do stories impact this? Because that story has no consequence on my life in a rational sense, like a guy got killed by bar out here with dogs, but that guy's story has shaped my family and it's just you know. And then and then the conclusion was humans are massively impacted by stories, whether you want to or not. And so you got a choice of what stories you let impact you. Netflix tells stories. That's what Netflix is in the business of telling stories, you know, absolutely, and so like and and you know, you could say, well, Clay, why are you letting a story about a English guy you didn't know getting killed by bear you know, like impact your family. Like that's kind of aside from the point in that it's like we we get that, we get to choose what impacts us and how it impacts us, you know. And I would like if Gerstalker had just been a dirt ball that story, like like if he had just been known as like an outlaw and like a scrupulous character, like I wouldn't have had respect. I respected the guy. He did love people, like I said on the podcast when he left Conwell's house, like these are people that he had just met. He couldn't even speak their same language that well, and he cried when he left Conwell's house. He said, Conwell had hair as white as snow. And he loved his family and he went into you know how, he stayed with them and they begged him to stay. And it's just like I like it. I like that guy. And then and then just his insightfulness and and he wasn't like a conservation hero, like I wasn't trying to paint Gerstalker as a conservation hero. But he did have insight that the market hunting of the times of which he participated in was unsustainable. And like so that then becomes like a stamp on that story. And like when I think of that, I think of, man, will never do that again. He was hunting bears in February in Den's and it's like, man, that was really cool Wayne doing that no more. I mean, there there are stories in that book of them crawling into dens crawling in caves with Litward. They call him Torches, but pine Kindler's pine Kindling split climbing into caves, killing a sal bear and then smacking cubs up against the rock to kill him. I mean like they were in the business of killing stuff, and it's like that did happen. That's not good. It's not gonna happen again. Because it happened, then, do you see what I'm saying. It's like me like talking about conservation based bear hunting, where we're highly selective and we're trying to target these older mature males. That happened because ger Stoker, he didn't know any better, was clubbing you know, baby bears over there. I mean for a better term, we listen. We have the right as humans to correct our paths and learn from our past. It's like James Lawrence redemption inside of something that was negative. Well, you you recognize that that that is obsolete, and you have to be able to recognize the obsolescence of that thing and move on and say this this worked for the time, it's no longer relevant. Yeah, And we'd still be doing that today if we hadn't. Well, we wouldn't because the bears will be gone, but and they were for a time. They were in Arkansas. Okay, closing comments here, Dan, I'm gonna throw this horn to you and you'll get to speak. Just what do you think I'm gonna say? Overall? It's the podcast is solidly mediocre. Um no, no, no. I think what as I've been listening to them and really enjoying them, I think, you know, when you think about podcasts and stories, a lot of today's kind of stories and podcasts either are really critiquing a part of life and usually not a very beneficial way, or it's trying to kind of escape life, you know as it is. And I feel like what I really like about what you're doing is I leave having listened to one of your podcasts, and I'm thinking about how I see things and how I relate with people and choices that I make, and to me, it helps me feel more connected. It's your insight. You know, you're gonning, You're gonna inside from unlikely places, and I feel like that is what I walk away with. Yeah, I like it. I think about where this all started with me and you, and we were in Oklahoma on a bear bait and I was running the camera and we've been sitting there for that one day for a week. It seemed like and hadn't seen a bear. And you turned away from me and I was looking off back to the left. I was sitting on the to the left of clay, and when I turned back around, you had taken mud and I assumed water and covered your face and mud, and I thought, how did I get here? I've carried forty pounds of camera equipment on the side of this mountain in the Washington Mountains, and this guy has just put mud all little I don't know what it was, but I thought, this is this gal never go anywhere, But look what you've done. Buddy. I'm very proud of you for what it what it's turned into and the drive, you know. I say that facetiously about knowing you wasn't gonna go anywhere, and the drive you had has been outstanding. It's inspired me to do a lot of stuff too, and I just appreciate you let me come along for the ride. Right on, man. Yeah, As as the non hunter in the group, I think hearing the podcast and watching you tell people stories, I think it's a very powerful tool to continue the legacy and culture and give people who haven't had that exposure a correct way of seeing things. I think hunting, I think the Southern culture. I think Arkansas has, you know, nationally not a good rep and hearing the story is in seeing how you hunt and it's being driven by principles and patterns and the way that you you share, the way that you've been influenced by your dad, the way that you influence your kids. I think it's a powerful medium and tool to give people a cleaner, more pristine, more correct picture of hunting, of Arkansas, of the South, of relationships, of of everything that is built inside of a commodity that was once you know, valuable that is but is lost and so bringing that back and giving giving people a better picture of that, I think is is awesome. Yeah, it's good. Well, I think that I've really enjoyed the podcast, and uh, I think just having known you for a lot of years, I appreciate um. First of all, like Malick I said, I appreciate the relational aspect of of the podcast. I think it I think when it all boils down to it, it's relationship that makes us rich and so to be able to connect with people and to to draw stories from people. I think storytelling and the ability to draw stories out of people that that thing has been lost, um in a sense that that shows the depth of what's been built in people over a long journey. And so I think to be able to hear that from you who have a passion to to mind that out, I think it's valuable for people to be able to hear. And so I'm really looking forward to to the future podcasts and the things that I get to learn by listening. And uh yeah, I mean I think you eagerly await being on the very grious podcasts, eagerly render, and and I may might become so popular on the render that I don't I don't need to be on the point. Hey, this is look good for Edwards were passing to their horn, Dad, What do you think then? Well, I hate to burst your stinking bubble, but these guys are obviously on the payroll. And I am really disappointed in you, Daniel. I think you sort of have a spiritual religious background. And it's it's obvious again that she hadn't been vaccinated against Lyne. That's that's brist deal. I podcast. When he's talking about But you know when I listened to it, I look, I look at it from a deadly standpoint. That's a new word. We'll take it. Uh. You know, it's just like when you were a kid. You know, your brain is not totally formed. I mean, you miss about half the good stuff. It's like on the deal with the with the Dogs, I mean, nowhere did you mention that the dog is your best friend? But why is he your best friend? It's because he loved you first. He's the only animal that loves you more than him. And I mean you didn't even cover that. I mean I was embarrassed. It was embarrassing that you went into all that rhetoric and didn't mention the love the dog has for you. And if you look at life in the way I'm serious about the love, I think you can detect that. But I only love people that love me. And if they have the ability to show me that they loved me first, you know, they exposed themselves. It's it's like I'm open, vulnerable the words. Yeah, there you go. So I mean that's that's a powerful tool, is love. And people that are have enough confidence to expose themselves to hate. And a dog does it immediately. Now how that came from a wolf to domesticated dog? But it's really powerful. But no, really, all these podcasts, they're different in a lot that I've heard where you have a lot of meat, a lot of science, a lot of humor, all of it mixed up into a recipe that it's pretty entertaining and education. So obviously I need to tune your daddy. It's a solid six. Gary nucle gives The Brigs podcast two stars. Okay, hey, I need people to leave iTunes reviews on the Barrious podcast like so this is my unashamed solicitation for all our listeners to go to iTunes and apparently that drives the needle on these podcasts with the higher ups, you know. So, uh, I'm asking everybody out there do me a favor and just uh, you know you can. You can do as little as just giving it like stars. But the best thing to do would be to leave a comment, you know, just just say what you think. Um, that would help us. And UM, I think my guests so much for being here. Really, you guys mean the world to me, all of me, so that's why you're here. Uh. Check out Brent's podcast Nightlife Nation. Brent's got a coon hunting podcast. Check out Josh on Instagram, Kiki and the Beard Um nobody else has any like uh big social platforms. Yeah on the Twitter. But again, if if you hadn't been paying attention, We're gonna do this every other week, So the bear Grease podcast will come out every other week, the Bear Grease Render, which is us just shooting the bull, and it'll be a different you know, it might be different, people might be the same people. Y'all may never want to come back. Brent drove three hours to be here. Did y'all know that Yerry drove to two and a half. Two and a half. He'll never get those two and a half. No, thank you guys so much. And uh yeah, I can't wait for the next episode. Keep the wild places wild because that's where the bears live and that's where you get barglaries. You know what, when Malachi left the house this morning, he thought he had the coolest socks on Those are those are coon dog socks? Oh me, I'm crazy.

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