00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon, and this is episode number nine Tanna show. We're diving into the mind of big buck killer Ben Rising with a goal discovering exactly how he's killing the deer he is on such a consistent basis. All right, welcome to the wire to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sick of Gear, and today you'll be glad here. Dan and I are joined by a trivia guest and someone who likely knows a heck of a lot more about killing big mature white tails than the two of us do. This guest is Ben Rising, and Ben is a super serious deer hunter, an outfitter, and has been seen on a number of Dury Outdoors TV shows in DVDs over the years. Even more impressive, I think Ben has killed I believe it is eight different Boone and Crockett caliber bucks, and who knows how many other dandy mature white tails. So with all that said, Dan and I are going to step back and absorb as much as we can from Ben today We're going to do our very best to dig as deep as possible has been to understand exactly how he's having this kind of success, and ultimately our hope is that some of his mojo might rub off on us too. So before we get been on the line though, me and Dan have a little bit of catching up to do. Dan, how you doing, I'm doing okay, well kinda did you get my text message pictures? Oh my gosh. Yeah, right, So my son has a rash right now that looks like chemical burns. And his face was like the night we the first trip to the e r We've he's been there three times now, is it looked like Rocky boub Bow. I mean when I was swollen shut The other one was almost one shot. He had this this swelling on his lip that looked like a marble and it was hanging off his lip. It was nasty. And they're saying it's a virus that they can't do anything about. It just has to run its course. Oh that is awful. I just I felt so bad just looking at him, just covered with that rash and he just looks so sad. Oh man, that's gotta be really, really tougher. For you guys. I can't. I hope that. Yeah, I think I think he's on his on the way out of it, though. I mean, I think the worst is over. He still has a rash on his face and um back or on legs and arms, but um, the back is almost cleared up now, so hopefully he's on the He's on the up and up. I'll tell you what, You've got a way of making all my issues always look really, really trivial. I was gonna come on here today and complain about how I'm so stressed this past week and all this stuff, and now here it is. Dan says, well, my kid's been in the hospital three times, and I just can't stack up with that. I guess I can't complain that my trail camera batteries died exactly. You're stealing my thunder. Oh man, that's bad, though. Yeah, I got nothing compared to that. I all this new in me and kind of interesting, is I had my first deer related speaking event last week, really, so I did like a seminar for the first time. It was interesting. You know. I didn't get to hide behind my computer screen or the podcast mike or the video camera. This is just me in front of people, and uh, I don't know have you ever done that? Damn, I don't think you have, have you. I've never given a speech to people based on deer hunting before. I've given like a company speech or a speech to a class, but nothing, nothing like this. What was it for? Yeah, it was for a Quality Deer Management co op meeting here in Michigan. So you know, this is something I figured, you know, at some point in my career, I'm probably going to have to start doing these types of things, so I better get started somewhere. And this came up, and it was I figured be a small, safe way to get my toe in the water. Um So, I you know, volunteered my services and thought, hey, I'll go up there and talk for a little bit. So it was cool. It was probably about fifty people, um so, not huge audience, but enough that I you know, if I did something stupid, it would have been embarrassing. So yeah, I was nervous. I'll be honest with you. I was. I was nervous because, like, like you have done a lot of like I've done a lot of speaking in front of people for my old job, you know, sales pitches and speeches and different things like that, but not about you know, not in my new career yet, so that was a new thing. Did you picture the crowd naked? H No, I did not, because it was primarily older gentleman so wouldn't have been all that interesting for me. Got you, got you? No? No, no naked, no naked ideas, Just like I did a lot of did a lot of prep, try to make sure I knew what I was talking about, and I think, you know, from what I heard, I think it went well. So I didn't I didn't have any mess ups where I embarrassed myself. I didn't get booted off the stage, so that was that was a success as far as I'm concerned. So I had that going on. But man, that kind of thing, it was stressful, like it it took me out of my like out of my workflow for like two or three days. I couldn't focus on anything else because I was thinking about that. And then this week I've had like some other things going on that have just got me like, I don't know, just not able to focus on like the work I need to get done. I'm like stressing about these like different business opportunities or possible new projects or possible partnerships and all this kind of stuff, and it's it's great stuff, but I'm just like overthinking it and like worrying about if I do this, I can't do that, and if I can't do that, will let mean this? And should I do this? Should not do that? Where am I going? What am I doing? So there's been a lot of just like in my head, like what where where are we taking this thing in the future. So good problems to have, I guess, but I've just been like in a funk kind of because of it. Um, I'll tell you. What's gonna cure that for you is your shed hunting trip to Ohio this weekend. That is true, I hope, I hope that will help. I think it should help. I'm looking forward to that. Although the one bummer is as of right now, it looks like we're gonna have rain every day. I'm gonna be down there right same same here in Iowa. Yeah, so it's gonna be a wet shed rally weekend. But you're still gonna go out, right, I think. So. I'm gonna grab my frog talk best rain jacket ever, my frog Talk rain jacket with your plastic We're gonna bring the plastic bag to wear underneath it too. Oh my gosh, I guess the worst that you know, if it gets too bad, I could just drive around and find him. You We actually did that a little bit when I was in Iowa. Me and Cory drove around in one of the fields in this truck. Were like, Hey, we can get used to this. I was. I was at my buddy's house, right and I took down a trail camera and my last tree stand that I had to take down for the year. And we're driving back into town and I took this different way for some reason, and I see something out in this like CRP that looked like it had laid the c RP had laid down, and I look at him, like that can't be. So I back up and there's there's two kids and a mom playing out in this front yard. Um, So I backed up, and the mom instantly goes into like creeper mode where she's like, who is that and what are they doing? So I back up, I look at it even closer. I'm just like, it's like a hundred yards off the road. So I pulled on the driveway and I go up to this lady. I'm like, okay, I'm sorry for bothering you, but there's something over there that looks like a deer antler shed. Do you guys ed hunt or hunt it all? And they're like, no, I go, do you mind if I go up and grab it? If if it is in fact a shed? So I grab it and it's like one of the top ten biggest sheds I've ever found. This is awesome. Yeah, likeically an awesome shift. I saw the picture that was a sweet piece of bone. Yeah, it's it's not bad. It was I'm jack because I'm just you know, I would love to have put in hours and hours of walking to find it, but hey, sometimes you just gotta, you know, take what you can get. I'd rather be lucky than good. Right, that's right. How did you It looked like like bigger. I'd put her closer. I'd probably put it closer to sixty. I mean, the G four on it is not that big, gotcha. I guess, Yeah, it's kind of kind of crab cloud. I guess if I remember, heck, that's still a nice piece of bone. I'll measure it and then I'll I'll let you know yeah, i'd be curious to hear. That's awesome, man, that's cool. That's that's a good sign for the next big shif hunting trip. Right. Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully they're not all I mean, there's been no snow this cheer, so hopefully they're not all chewed up by the time that that we find them. Yeah, that is the one concerned I've been having to it's getting a little bit late, and if they've been on the ground a lot, there could be could be some issues, but you just never know. So I'm excited for for next week's podcast. Hopefully we'll both have some good stories to share on that front. And uh man, I'm excited to find out if a couple of my bucks in Ohio made it. I'm I'm really excited for that because I'll be checking the cameras, checking the sheds. So we should have we should have some answers by next week, some big answers. Well, Okay, so I talked to you about this just a little bit. Now, it's episode ninety four, right, this one, this one is episode Okay, that means episode one hundred is coming very soon. And and I'm the biggest I'm you know I'm a fan as much as the next guy the listeners, So I want to know, are we going to do something big for the hundredth show? I mean, do do we got a contest or do we have like fireworks or something like that. I can tell you this, we do not have fireworks, but we do have some very cool things planned. I can't share specifically what those things are yet. I want to kind of keep it under wraps for a little bit longer, but we're going to make sure Episode one hundred is one to remember. We're gonna do some cool stuff, so definitely stay tuned for that. I think when I looked at the calendar, that's going to be sometime in April, mid April, if I remember correctly. So so yeah, stay tuned. Episode one hundred is coming and we're gonna do it a big So it's uh I'm excited about too for sure. Perfect. So, So with that little tease out of the way, Dan, I think, uh, I think we do need to get bet on the line. It is time for our call with the st rising. So let's let's take a pause here briefly for a word from our partners at Sick of Gear, and then we will give Ben a call. Alright, So, as we do every week, we're talking to Sick of Product category leader Dennis Zuck. And today I want to ask Dennis a little bit about sick cause hometown Bozeman, Montana. Now I'm a huge fan of Montana. I want to think of big Sky country. My mind jumps to elk and mountains, not necessarily white tails. So Dennis, do you guys have any white tails out there? Testas gear on? Yeah. And it's kind of funny because you absolutely your mind goes right to the elk, which a lot of the folks here you go right to the elk too. But you know, if you think about the Milk River or some of the things you've seen on outdoor television, you know that's all in Montana, you know. And and I'll tell you there's there's a ton of white tail deer in Montana and there's some great hunting here for for them. Um. You know, it's kind of interesting, you know. I tell people all the time, if you want to go shoot, if you're really comfortable, I want to shoot a one thirty five. You know, there's all kinds of one there five type of animals in Montana, you'll see more of those than you will see lots of other parts of the country. So you absolutely can touch test product here for white Tail. You can create some really good gear. Um, that's why we moved it here. We moved it somewhere where we could we could go out and beat up stuff for the white tailor but we could beat up stuff for the elk guy. Or we could you know, go out and you know, test our next water idea. So you know, this place is exactly where you want to be if you're going to try to build clothing systems for the hunting community, white Tail included. So then that leads me to my next question, which is are you able to ever get into work done during the hunting season where there's so many opportunities out there. Yeah, well, you know that I can work from home philosophy, while I can work from the field too, So they're great thing is is you know I can I can go out test and product and I might answer an email on my phone once in a while. You know a lot of us say we don't do it, but we all know we probably do. So we work a lot from the field. We work a lot from the office. Um, it's the game we play, it's the world we live in. Yeah, I am definitely guilty of similar work habits such as that during the hunting season, so so I can totally relate. Nothing wrong with working from the field. So if you'd like to learn more about Sick of Gear and the white tail products they're putting out there, you can visit sick of gear dot com. And now let's get back to this show and give Ben Rising a call. All right with us. Now on the line is Ben Rising. Welcome the show. Ben, Hi, guys, thanks for having me. Yeah, we're we're thrilled to have you, especially given the fact that for the past like thirty minutes we've been trying to have this interview and we've had some technical difficulties. So so thank you Ben for sticking it out with us. Yeah, that's it's it's gonna be, I think an interesting conversation. I've been looking forward to chatting with you, um about all sorts of deer hunting related things for a while now, so so I'm glad we're able to make this happen. And just before you got on the line, Ben, I give our listeners a really brief introduction to who you are. But for those who aren't familiar, can you give us a a bit more background as to you know, what you've been doing in the white tail hunting world over past years and and now what you're up to today. Okay, yeah, Well clear back in two thousand and one, I started filming for Dury Outdoors. Um, you know, filmed for them until just this last so I think it was two thousand thirteen was my last season actually filming under a Dury contract. Um. And now I'm doing my own web show going to be starting here this year, and it's called Whitetail Edge. UM. And I've had an outfitting business for the last five years called Wicked Ridge Outfitters in Killbuck, Ohio. UM. So I've and I'm a logger by trade, by standing timber for a local sawmill. And I logged for twenty some years cutting timber every day. And just in the last two years I've kind of got off the chainsaw a little more and doing more of the leg work in the woods and estimating timber and you know, buying jobs. So I'm I live in the woods basically, is what you could say. It's not a bad way to live. It seems like from from everything I've seen your you were living the white tail life, seeing seeing whether it be you know, scouting, shed hunting, scouting in the summer, it seems like you're doing something related to deer most of the year. Would you say that's true? Oh? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, and I feel that that's you know, my dad started me trapping years ago when I was just a little boy. My dad was a big predator caller and trapper. He wasn't a real big deer hunter, but you know, he knew animal habits and he knew things like that, and I think that played a huge part in making me into a good hunter when I developed the bug to want a deer hunt. You know, I started bow hunting when I was thirteen, and obviously a big learning curve, not having anybody in my family that was a bow hunter. But by the time I was you know, early twenties, I'd really started to get a good grasp on it, you know. So yeah, so when when did you being in the wood felt? Yeah? Sorry, I was just gonna ask when did you make the switch? And maybe it was an evolution or switch, When did you move from just hunting deer to targeting a certain type of deer or age or size or something like that. When did that happen for you? Well, I guess you'd say it happened with my first encounter with the real you know, Boone and Crockett sized animal. And you know that would have been that. It's funny because the very first year that Durious contracted me to film for them, I actually killed my very first dooner. My very first deer on film was a four in nine point dear. And you know I had killed some good deer up and to that point, but never you know, one eight class type deer um. But just hunting that deer that year on fifty acres of land against other people that were trying to hunt the same deer. And you know that deer. I killed him on October twenty three. But that deer taught me so much. I've watched him in the summer some and build him, you know, um, and I just learned a lot about that deer and you know how different they were, and you know, it just really gave me the bug. And I call it buneritis. It's a disease I call it. And uh that just you know, I wrote an article a few years ago called buneritis, you know, and it just depicts the you know, once that gets in your blood when you kill a deer like that, or you get to hunt deer at that size, just nothing else to do, at least for me, you know. I mean, I enjoy killing big deer out of state, you know, I mean obviously, you know, if I go out of state away from home, you know, my standards are different. If I only have five days to hunt. You know, a mature buck is a mature buck, you know, good four and a half five and a half year old deer, even if it's you know, one forty class year is still a great deer. To kill him four or five days, you know, and that's a very smart animal to kill. But if I have the time to pick out a very large animal, you know, into is from different farms and trail cameras and you know, and that's why I kind of like to get multiple farms, even out of state, because I try to do my homework and I try to pick the biggest deer I can find to kill, you know. And some people say, well, you're just a horn hunter. Well, you know, I've killed so many deer in my life that I just don't get anything out of just shooting a regular buck anymore. I mean, my challenge is winning my putting my wits against deer of that nature. You know. I still get off on shooting, does I love it, you know, and taking my boys and shooting young deer, But shooting really big bucks is the thing that turns me. Yeah, definitely. Like like you said, there, there's something at least for me. It's not even necessarily just you know how big the antlers are, just for the sake of the antlers, but also by the fact that a deer with antlers like that is so rare, so smart, So you know, those types of animals just aren't. There's not many of the mouth there, and the ones that are have had to be extremely smart to get to that point. So because of that right there, it's so much more of a challenge in and of itself. Um, it's running five of the white tail population exactly, and it forces you to do a lot of things differently, that's for sure. So since that first boon and crack a buck, how many how many other boon and crack a deer have you shot? Lastnight? I heard I think was eight? Is that accurate or has it changed? Yeah? Yeah, I've shot eight booners, you know in the last sense two thousand and two. Wow, and uh the biggest was the eight or bigger than that? Wow. So now the other growth scores, you know, right, I've killed one seventy six eight and two eight. Um. I know I have to look at him here, but yeah one two eight um. Um. Last year I killed a one seventy four three. Um. It seems like I'm missing one there somewhere, but in another one eight. So I want to get into how you actually killed all these deer. But before that, I'm just thinking, as you're listening off all these numbers and all the deer, is there any one of those bucks that you've killed that stands above the rest from like a memory or an experienced standpoint or is it you know? Or they all great in themselves. Well, the deer I killed last year, um, I called him high and tight um for a couple of years. Um, he's you know, he sticks to my memory really good. But I still think that, you know, the two oh four was a special deer, but my very first being the U eighty four inch nine point. It's just hard to beat. I mean he's just a his typical frame is ginormous and to have nine points and the growth score that many inches of Vandler kind of gives you a depiction of the size of rack that he carried on his head. Um, you know, and just the ariants I had with hunting that deer then harvesting him, and you know, it was just it was epic. I mean, it's just I've never had a reaction like that in my life, you know, to kill him the deer. I mean I've always get excited, but um, you know, I literally thought I was gonna faint after I pulled it off. You know. But it's weird because I you know, I've had a lot of guys sitting the tree with me and film and you know, I've killed, filmed and killed numerous bucks, you know, from you know, hunting thirty inch deer up to booner class you know, with a bow. And you know, everybody just says that the one thing that they notice about me is that, you know, like ice in my veins, I just don't get rattled, you know, and I just concentrate on what I'm doing. Um, you know, you know, I the way I look at it. I just worked so hard to get to that point and put myself in that position that that's not the time to get nervous and have a melt down. You know. It's the killer instinct. They say, it's interesting, it's interesting you bring that up, because literally just last week our episode was all about this very topic of the killer instinct and how you handle the moment of truth. Um, And so I'm curious and one of the things we're talking about is are some people just born with it or is it something you acquire with experience after killing so many deer or having encounters so many mature bucks or anything like that. You know, have you always had that killer instinct, that that ice in your veins or is this something that has grown over time? Yeah? Well, you know, I obviously think the more you're around the type of animals you're trying to hunt, the more comfortable you get you learn things. But I also credit a lot to be in at such a young age, you know, um, being a trapper and my dad hunting, and you know, you had to harvest animals and dispatch them. So the I guess you'd so to speak, taking an animal's life was instilled into me. At a very young age, you know. Um, and I think and just you know, I mean, I I just but I also think that you're born with it. You know. I was catching red fox and kyotes at the age of thirteen years old, you know. And I don't know if you know much about trapping, but red fox are very smart. They're very kegy to scent. You know, they'll flip your traps, they'll turn around, and they'll take a dump on your traps if they smell human scent. So my dad taught me so much at that young age about things like that that you know, I mean, I literally was hated by adult men in our community that were trappers that couldn't catch fox and I was catching you know, twenty a year. And so I do think that it's just a natural you know. Everybody has a gift, you know, and I honestly believe that this lifestyle is my God given talent, you know. Yeah, but I do think that people can overcome nerves and the ability to you know, settle in and get used to you know, putting their selves in those positions and having an animal that caliber in front of them and keeping their cool. Yeah. Um, but I'll tell you a funny little saying that my buddy Mark Jury always said. And this is funny. After I went out there one time and I was filming with him turkey hunting, and we had a guy in camp that he was filming and this guy had missed about three turkeys that day already and after two already in the morning, and then after the third one, Mark Durry got up and he booted the declar and he'd come over to me and he says, look, then he goes, this is how it is. He goes, some people are killers, or he goes, some people are hunters, some people like to hunt, and then there's killers. And he goes, this guy he just likes to hunt. He got so and he walked right to the drug. He takes the personal you know. I mean, I mean, obviously he wasn't mad at the guy. It was this. He was mad at the situation, you know, because he's just not used to that, you know, he's not used to having failed attempts. And you know, but I think that's the truth. There's some people that are out there just because they want to be out there. They're enjoying, you know, and then there's that type of people like don Kisky, Jay Gregory, myself, you know watt l. I mean, you can drop those guys anywhere in any situation and they're going to drop the hammer and it's gonna count. You know, everybody makes a bad shot. But you know a lot of these so called what I call them computer and Facebook hunters, they judge all of us because they think that, well, if I had the areas to hunt the pease guys do or hunt those farms that they have, we could kill these same deer. But you know that's not really the truth. I mean, there is a big separation, and you know, they all had to start somewhere and work their way to the point that they're at now. And part of the reason they're at where they're at now is because they can pull it off, you know, and crunch time they make it happen. So that brings up interesting Let's elaborate on that for a moment um and talk about the places that you are hunting. Um, were all of these booners killed in Ohio and were they on uh public or private ground? You know? Is that ground um basically maintenanced for killing big deer. Yeah? Well, so, like um my very first one, you know, was just a piece of land I got permission to hunt on, and the farmers family hunted there too, um you know, and it wasn't a very big track to land, so that deer was being hunted. Um. Most of these deer that I've killed have either been on say I might acquire a lease, um, but you know, none of the leases are big enough that you can control the deer and you can control the neighbors. You know, everybody hunts around me. Um, and you know, I literally have to. You know, I hate it when people even find out where I'm hunting, because if they find out that I have leased a farmer, I got permission to hunt farm, they think there's twenty five Boon and Crockett deer living on it, you know, and so instantly you get pressure around you, even harder than what you had originally. But I've walked into many farms over the years, and of the biggest deer on the farm the first year I had had access to it, um, you know. And it's and I'm talking even pressure deer, you know. I mean the one day I killed um, he lived on public land. I didn't kill him right on public land, but it was really close you know, I mean within fifty yards. So you know, it's just you know, and honestly, a lot of those guys are the same way. I mean, I've watched Michael Waddell, I've been with Mark Jury. You know, you can drop those guys anywhere and they're gonna they're gonna make it happen because that's just you know, it's in their blood. I mean, it's just what they were born to do. And they know how to do it. They know how to read deer and sign and land, and you know, there's so many factors to it that you know, Um, people overlook, you know, and I think in today's world, because there is so much TV and so much hype about killing deer, and they you know, and they see a lot of the shows, you know, where everybody's killing these big deer. Um, I don't think they realize the work that's gone into that thirty minute TV show to watch that happen. You know, even though they may be hunting, you know, like you know, there's no doubt and this is nothing against people like Lee and Tiffany and you know, Mark and Terry and guys like that that have large tracts of land. You know. I mean, they've worked their butts off to get to that point and have those but those deer are still a big deer and they still act like big deer. You know. They may be a little less pressure, so they're more apt to move when things are good, but um, they're still not stupid, you know. And uh, you know, it's just a big misconception I think. But you know, people today, I don't think they I think they think they're just gonna go out there, some corn on the ground is gonna walk in and they're gonna shoot it. And they just don't happen that way. So, having having known a lot of these different guys you've mentioned, and yourself having had a lot of success if you had did, if you had to kind of sum it down to a couple of core concepts, is there anything that all of these really successful hunters that you know have in common or that they do differently than your average you know, dump a pile of corn and hope for a big buck to show up. Is there something consistent between all these guys that they do differently? Intrusion? You know, pressure is the number one factor in killing a large deer once he knows he's being hunted. Um, it's a totally different game, you know. You I'd say of the booners on my wall and big deer, I'm talking you know, forty plus type deer. I've killed them within two or three times of sitting on them, and you know a couple of them the first time. So I think that you really diminish your chances as you start to hunt those deer. You know, they start figuring you out. And deer have zones, you know. And I can get into more in that in a little bit if you want. But intrusion factor is key, you know, exiting and entering your stand setups is a major factor. And in staying undetected and hunting the right winds obviously, um, you know, putting yourself in those positions where those deer traveling you know. Um, And I think every deer has a weakness and you have to pinpoint you have to locate that weakness somehow, either by visual observation, by running trail cameras in certain areas, you know, in doing it right, and um, just knowing what the pressure of the people hunting the same farm you're hunting is doing to the deer. Yeah. So so let's talk about that weaknesses that weakness aspect. You mentioned a couple of high level ways you might bill go about doing that. Does that start now? Do you start trying to identify weaknesses and the deer or learning about a deer during the spring or is this something that happens, you know, during the season. Well, I mean if you've had a prior relationship with a buck from the fall before and you didn't harvest it, well, yeah, you could maybe learn some things right now from it. Um by trying to find you know, obviously where he shed his wher where he was feeding late season or after season. Um, maybe dig a little farther into his core and find out exactly where he's betting if you can, you know a lot of seeing. I think that's where a lot of people struggle. They can't identify those things, um, you know, and it's it's woodsmanship, you know, that's that's a lot of people apart from the average hunter, you know, and it's just something that again you know, either you can recognize it or you you don't, you know, and it's it's just hard to say, it's hard to explain that to people, you know. And uh, but digging in this time of year, can't help you. But I usually find that weakness once I locate the deer I want to hunt, you know, if it's a new deer, a new farm, or you know, you know, you just you can either run it. You can either figure that out by trail cameras or where the food sources are, or you know, a glitch in the land that may stick out and say, you know that is the weakness that he has to walk through that spot to get there, you know. Um, and that's kind of how I killed the big bucket killed this year. That just showed on bone collector. UM. You know, there was a little pinch between a creek in the corner of a field. He wasn't gonna want to expose himself. Yeah, the night before I watched him farther down the creek with a dough but I knew at some point he was going to walk that trail in that natural pinch, and he did the next morning, and I shot him second time in um d for in the morning on October. You know. So it's just you know, just being able to identify those those things about the farms you're hunting, you know. So so how about you know, let's let's say hypothetical situation. If if I could pick you up and drop you off a new farm maybe you know, spring or summertime, you can you can choose? Can you can you walk me through how you would go about starting to hunt there, learning about that property? You know? How would you go about dissecting learning a property, putting together strategy? If I if I just dropped you on a random hundred acres maybe and said, Ben, go kill the biggest buck here, what would you do? M Well, the first thing I'm gonna do is identify any type of food source you know that the deer could be using, because the deer can't live if you can't eat, and he's not going to be there if there's nothing to eat. Um. You know, now he may live on the farm because you have a lot of cover, and he'll walk to the food. But you have to know where the food is. And then you find the cover, you find where the deer is going to bed um, and then it's pretty much you piece it together from there. I mean, those two things are the main factor in killing a big deer. I mean food in security. Obviously, the does come into play at a point in time but a lot of my bucks I have killed them before they really start ramping in the road, or I kill them late season. You know, the rut is my least favorite time to hunt a big deer. I mean, it's fun and it's action packed, but the deer is so unpredictable at that point that you know, they're very hard to pinpoints. So if I do want to hunt hunt rut and try to kill a very large buck, I like to hunt post rut because that's when the last ones are really looking the last real giants are looking for hot dogs, you know, and they're a little more predictable at that point. But yeah, I mean like getting dropped off. You know, I want to identify the food sources. I want to know if there's any stands on the property lines where the hunters are, you know, pressuring my property lines, or if there's hunters on the same farm, where are they hunting at, what are they doing, how they're getting in there to those spots, And you know, then I think of it from a deer standpoint, you know, what is that dear encountering during hunting season? You know, I just try to put myself in that position and think, all right, if I'm a buck and I'm beating here and I know this is the thickest area on the farm, or this is a dough betting area, this is a buck betting area where I can you know, bet on this point and look down this ravine, watch my backside get to win. Hit me in the face. Then I hear Joe Hunter pulling on his quad, or I hear him shot the gate or banging around, climbing a tree. You know, those are all the things that go through my mind, and I don't even think about it, you know myself, I'm not even thinking that I'm thinking it. I'm just thinking it, you know, to where some people I think, you know, need they need to make a list of these things and and pick their farms apart, you know, right right it becomes intuition, probably after you've done it so many times, right yeah, And I mean, you know, you you have to find those terrain features that you know, in good flat ground, you know, it's a little tougher, you know, because you don't have a lot of funnels, you don't have a lot of you know, natural forces to move a deer you know through a certain part of the hillside, or you know. So you you know, you find little corners or tree lines that connect the block of woods to another block of woods, or crp grass too, you know. Um there's always something that you can find that depicts how the deer want to move. Yeah. So, so I want to rewind a little bit. I want to take you back to the summer. Let's say it's the summer before you're gonna actually start hunting there. Do you do a lot of actual glassing and scouting by from the road or from the property at all during the summer to try to figure out, you know, what deer there or anything like that, or is that something you wait till the season happens. No, I do. I mean I do a lot of that if I can, you know, if the farm permits it, for sure. You know, I want to spend a little time doing that. Um, I don't spend as much time as I used to doing that. You know, I used to really spend tons of time watching you know, fields and things like that. But in today's world, if somebody sees me part somewhere, you know, glass in the field or you know, it just really makes my life harder, you know. Um, So it's hunting has become I don't know how you say it, but it's not It doesn't seem like it's so much just an enjoyable sport, camaraderie wise with your buddies anymore. You know, it's become this like, I don't know, this jealousy. I've never seen anything in my life that has the jealousy that killing a big deer does. And it's sad, you know, um, but it disappears that you know, somebody sees you somewhere, then they think and they know, and then things start happening and you know, but that's another story. But yeah, I mean definitely you can watch dear and you have the grounds you can do it on and do it safely from a distance where you're not intruding on those deer. It's a great way to find a weakness in a buck because you'll notice a lot of times deer will enter fields and food sources on different winds and the different spots, and those are key things to notice for an early season hunt. So so that behavior that you're seeing in the summer is that applicable actually during the hunting You just mentioned early season hunting, So is that is that kind of data that you store that you just apply to the first couple of hunts of the year, or is that somehow useful later, you know, in later in October and November December. Yeah, no, I think you can use it a lot. I mean, as long as you know, if they're using that food tours or those trails you know, are leaving that betting area, you know, there's certain ways that those are going to do it, you know. And you know Don Higgins, I don't. I'm sure you've heard of him. He wrote a book, you know. And one thing that I noticed that he wrote in his book years ago I read and you know, and I agree with it totally. I just never stated it like he did. He wrote a thing about you know, and I think he stated that the best for people to understand a lot of times to hunt these big gear, you have to hunt a win that is almost wrong for you, and the deer almost it thinks it's right, you know what I mean, It's like it's right on that fine line of being wrong, but yet it's just good enough. Yeah, and um, but not always. I mean, you know, it doesn't always work that way. But I have noticed that, you know, deer will move better. You know, on a wind that they definitely feel is in their favor, you know, for sure of go heading to the area they want to be. Yeah, do do you do? You typically see that you're finding most of his mature bucks moving with the wind in their face or quartering. Um. You know, I feel like I've talked to We've talked to so many different people about this, and it seems like everyone has everyone kind of agrees that, yes, a mature buck likes to use the wind, but there's lots of varying answers as to how they use it. Have you seen one or the other be the most common from your experience? Well, so, like in his natural setting early season, you know, they're definitely going to use the wind, you know, to their best advantage, you know, checking that food source before they come in. But you know, I've read articles where these guys talk about these deer used the inner buck trails and you know, circle a food source before they enter, and I think that's a bunch of hogwash. I mean, I've never once seen a deer do that unless he was so pressured and scared to death at that is the only time. But that then if that's the point he ain't even gonna hit that food source still dark, you know what I mean. So I think people give them too much credit sometimes, you know, if a deer is not on edge and he's you know, now, I'm not gonna say that, I don't think you have to slide into the timber a little bit and catch him in a staging area before he hits the food. But you know, and when they're in those there is there a lot less The closer they get to the food or the opening, the more nervous they're going to get, and the more alert they're gonna get, you know. But if you go too far into the woods too much, you're going to bump them out, and you're very limit on how many times you can hunt a staging area. Yes, So, so elaborate a little bit on that for your early season hunts. So you've identified, right, there's a buck here with your scouting, you know he's coming in and out of a food source. Do you typically is that how you typically like to approach that early season couple hunts? Is that finding that staging area or do you use any other information to figure out what you're gonna do? Yeah? Well, I mean if it's if I've got a big buck peg, then I think I can kill early. You know, that's exactly how I try to kill him. I try to figure you know, I I definitely figure out where he's vetted, um, and I figure out where he's going. And then you can only hunt those trails, you know, on the right type of winds where you're not going to bust all the other dear also, you know, and give your location up, and you gotta hunt them on the right days. And you know, you don't go in there when it's degrees on opening day, no matter how bad you want to, even if it's the right wind, you know what I mean. Um, little factors like that is what depicts your success rate of a mature gear moving in daylight hours to get somewhere. Yeah, we we we'd like to I personally geek out about that. You just mentioned that the little factors that get a mature buck on his feet and all the different things, whether be weather related or precipitation or anything like that. Are there any specific things that you really pay attention to that when you see happen, you know that you have to be in the woods, you know, a cold front or anything like that. Are there some things you really key in on. Yeah, well, I like high pressure, you know, I truly believe you know, I've killed a lot of deer on the cold front, but I see way more dear activity high pressure after up front, you know, the deer just really ramp up. And one thing I've noticed too is stagnant. Any kind of consistent weather pattern sucks for deer, whether it is cold or whether it's heat, you know, or constant rain or you know, constant dry. Any switch up in any of that stagnant weather pattern makes deer move. In my mind, Um, you know, obviously the colder it is in a longer period, the more they got to go to food. So that is a weakness, you know. But you know, the morning times hunting, you know, when it's like that is very fruitless in my mind. You know, we in my outfitting business and you know, muzzleloader season and late bow hunts, we won't even hunt mornings unless we have a deer peg that we know exactly how he's doing, what he's doing, and he may be a morning type deer, you know, and we can get in and catch him coming back to bed. But most of the times they're already back you know, and laying you mentioned you mentioned trying to find that pattern between the betting area and the food source. So how are you how are you finding that that betting area? Well, I guess what are you looking for? And are you using trail cameras to abuse help you scout? Yeah? Well I don't really use trail cameras in the woods very often, um, you know, and I think that's for a lot of people make a big mistake. You know. They get a they get a farm, and they go blowing in the woods and they find all these awesome trails, and you know, they want to check out this creek crossing or they want to you know, put a camera face in this trail yards in the woods, you know. Um. I'm an edge guy, you know, And that's why my web show is called White Jailed Edge, because I like to stay, you know, on the fringes and wait for the deer to come to me as much as I can. You know, I will slip in the timber at the right times, you know, like those staging areas and things like that. But all my cameras, you know, are pretty much on the edge. And I use that information because, like I said, deer have zones. I feel, and I think once you cross you know, they're used to human activity in this pretty much in the whole unit. It states being in field, farmers, you know, anything like that in open area, you know, roads, trails, you know, they're used to encountering some sort of human scent in those spots. Well, you know, you start leaving those spots. You know, like a lot of my trail cameras, I'll check on some of these farms or places I have permission I'll check. I'll drive my truck right to them, you know, and I'll try to have areas where I can drive my truck right around these farms to get to these spots to check them. You know, even scrapes. I mean, I'll drive right up to a big old hog scrape on the edge of the field, if you know, if I can, if I'm permitted to do it, and I'm not tearing up the farmer's field, and it works out, you know, um, I'll drive my truck right up to it cop out and jump right back in it. Because they're used to that doesn't bother them, It really doesn't. You know. It's the sneaking in there and walking around and you know, it's what a lurch those deer that something's not right, you know. Um, So I try to run my cameras on scrapes, on the edge of the food sources, you know, anywhere where I can check them that that zone isn't being crossed at. These deers so alerted that, and they get used to you being in those spots. When you check those cameras every two weeks or you know, a week or however your des depends on how aggressive you're trying to hunt at the time, they somewhat I think they get a comfort level with it. But if you start blowing into the timber and you cross that zone, it's over. I mean I'm not gonna say it's completely over, it's just there on guard and they know then that this isn't right, you know. And if they keep smelling that you're doing that, then eventually they'll either I think they'll either leave or they'll just relocate, or they're just gonna go nocturnal on you. Yeah. Is there a typical frequency for checking those cameras that you like to stick to. I know you mentioned that you know everyone's got their own level of aggression. What's your level? Do you like to stick to. Well, like, what if you're hunting the food source, it's act of you know, in the deer really hitting it, and you're trying to catch a pre rut buck, you know, maybe coming to that food source to check those doughs. You know, how I first figure that out is if he's going to hit that food source in daylight the scrapes, you know, if they start hitting those scrapes, then big dominant bucks. You'll notice too that a lot of times you're smaller bucks or if there's other mature bucks in the area, a lot of those other mature bucks we'll start disappearing off your cameras and it gets down to one really big deer, you know, and then you you start figuring out which buck is the dominant buck in that area, because you know they'll all hit those primary scrapes and spots. But you know, each dominant buck, in my mind, has this core area, and he starts controlling that areas it gets closer to the pre rut and he starts brooting out those other bucks out of that area. And you'll start noticing on your camera some of the mother bucks aren't gonna show up there very often because they know, they're going to get their butt kick or they're gonna have a confrontation, you know. Um. And so when you start catching that buck cruising his area and hitting and scrapes closer to daylight, you know, or closer you know, gett into the food source before it gets dark, that's a prime time. And you know, when it's starting to get to that pre rut, sometimes you've got to check those cameras and those edges where you can get in and out, you know, undetected. You can check them every three or four days if you need to, But you gotta make sure the wind is right and you're not blowing your wind down into the timber and blowing the deer out of their bedding areas. Yeah, yeah, see, And that's another thing. People don't. They throw caution to the wind, you know, when it's just checking cameras. They don't think about it, right right, Yeah, I mean they if they're down in the woods yards better than a thicket off that field, you know, and they smell you up there every three or four days. They don't like that, you know. So I try to do it when the wind is right or if it's nasty weather, you know, windy, rainy. You know, I'll move sets in the same kind of conditions if I need to move on a deer. And I also, like I don't shower, and it starts for me in July normally, you know, I started going to scentless soap. You know, everything's washed sentless for me all the time. Um, just my regular work clothes, street clothes, everything. I don't wear clothes and nothing. And that's just how I live my life, you know, up until you know about this time of year. To give my wife at least a couple of months of smelly good you know, nice, Nice, Can you elaborate a little more on what your your full scent control kind of regiment is in addition to that everything you do. Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think just being clean, you know, just being clean. I don't need a lot of stinky foods, you know when it comes time. You know, I don't need a lot of onion, let's say, away from stuff like that, you know, but just keeping your clothes clean. And you know, I don't really feel that you always have to have you know, there's a lot of good clothing linds out there, you know, And um, I've used them all in the past, and you know, I mean obviously for our white Tail led show, you know, we've getting sponsored. You know, we have different people that are you know, but I think there's so many good products out there, But I think the number one factor is keeping your clothes clean. You know, you're not pumping gash, you're not wearing the same boots jumping into dairy Queen and that you're gonna walk into the stand with you know. Um, I just feel that that's you know, that's imperative, is just trying to be as clean as you can and keep all your equipment clean. Definitely, It's one of those things that's that's easier said than done, though, right sometimes it's easy to at least I occasionally find myself tempted to try to cut some corners when it comes to that type of thing, because you know, especially later in the season, you've been being obsessive about send control for months and months now. But but like you said, it's just so important you have to pay attention to those details, right, Yeah, I think so, And I mean, but I will tell you this. You know, the right the wind is the right wind, I mean, you know, and that's why you hear the stories of people killing deer smoking cigarettes, and you know, a guy gets off work at the factory, walks out and pounds of one nineties, you know, with a shotgun or whatever. I mean, it happens all the time, you know. Um, But I do believe that, you know, if you throw, if you hunt the wind right, you can get away with more if you have your stands set up in those situations where a lot of other deer aren't going to nail you, and you know, you could hunt however you wanted, as long as the wind right, you know, and an ate swirling and the thermals are good and you're not hunting. You know, there's so many factory you could talk for three days about this. I mean, you really could. I Mean I even amazed myself sometimes that the things that come up into my mind when I'm being asked, and I always forget that I'm even thinking about you know. Yeah, yeah, that's the truth. I guess that's part of the fun of it, right, is there's there's so many different aspects of this to to obsess over and think about. Um. It definitely keeps me and Dan up late at night thinking about these things all year so glad, no one, We're not the only ones I gotta. I got a question about when it's time to make your move. Are are you identifying a buck? You you know that he's in an area, and you know he's working a particular field edge or or coming through a certain trail. Are you setting up an observation stand first, or are you going right in because you have a gut feeling or you have hard evidence that this buck is gonna be coming through this particular area. Yeah, well I'm big on you know. I mean, if I can use observation stands, you know, in a distance like before season, or like you say, for instance, that I go to a farm like my lease in Illinois that I just picked up last year. You know. Um, and this is a funny story because like the guy was trying to lease this farm out and nobody wanted it because it was too thick. If I never heard of such a thing in my own line, you know. Um, So when the guy told me that I was on the road, you know, I looked at the ariel and then I went out there and I leased it, you know, because um, I like thick, I mean, and I know that that's what big deer like, you know, they like to be alone and they like sick, and you know, pretty timber doesn't hold bucks, you know, they don't have deer, but it doesn't hold big deer, you know. Um, And so in that aspect, the very first time that I went out there to hunt, you know, in the fall, I'd ran cameras and had good information, knew what kind of bucks was on it. And it's funny, so there was two booners on this farm because it was so thick and they could they could get away from each other, you know, they could bed each end of this one picket and they didn't have to look at each other, and so it worked for him. And nobody else would really mess with it because it was ow things, so it was hard for them to you know, hunt it. And but anyways, you know, so for that instance, I did set up an observatory stand because I had never hunted the farm, so I wanted to know how the deer in general moved on this farm, you know, from one side of the farm to the other. How did they get there, how did they use these tree line? You know, And day number four I smacked at one seventy four, So can you can you share this a little bit more about what you saw that put you in position to shoot that buck? Seas up an observation stand what happened to get you there to where that one seventy was? Yeah, well, I mean it just I had a good idea from running trail cameras where he was at anyways, and just the lay of the land, and you know where there was a nice transition from open timber to the thick timber. Um really made it appealing to me. Um. But from an observation point, you know, from the one area where I could watch the fields a little bit, I did see, you know, I could tell, oh, where the does were coming from, and I could see it seemed to tell where the bucks like to be. Well, you know, as pre rod gets around, you know where that's gonna switch around and the bucks are gonna go to the doughs. So um, you know, I got in that transition that that funnel what I call a travel for it, or from the buck area to the dough area, and I set up and I waited for the right wind, and you know the first time with the right wind, we killed him. It's awesome when it works out that way. Isn't it. Yeah, when it does, it doesn't always, but you know, but I also feel that, you know, if God you're meant to kill that deer, that's gonna happen no matter what you do wrong or whatever. But if God doesn't want you to kill that deer, no matter how hard you try, you're not gonna kill it. Because I've encountered that so many times. You know, the biggest year I ever hunted in my life, it just wasn't meant to be. I had a two fifteen minutes deer three times within fifty yards of me on hard hunting ground, and I could not get a narrow to that deer. It just wasn't meant to kill it. Jeez. I came out. Imagine how frustrating that must have been. It was, but you know, it tore me apart, but I just had to accept it. And I finally gave up on that here the next year and realize, you know, I'd lost some ground where I was trying to hunt it and things, and you know, it got it got smashed first day of gun season from a guy to want a deer drive. You know, they've seen it from the road and they walk up in the woods and they got pushed to him and he killed it. So that's just how you know, I mean, it just was not meant for me to kill that deer. I mean because I did everything I could do to get myself on that deer, and I did three different times in daylight. If you learned fifteen inch monarch, you know, but I just I wasn't gonna take the bad shot. And you know it just I passed the deer when he was won sixties. Just one of those things. But you know, I still believe that, you know, you can really do a lot of things to put yourself in the right driver's seat to make it happen. How many how many times did you change your standand location for that for that buck that you ended up not shooting? Three times? Three times? So in three days, three different times you are are you running and gunning or like a running gun set up where you you pack in. Well, if you're talking about that biggest deer, you're talking about the deer I killed this pastor you're talking about the big deer I didn't kill. In general, I mean it depends like that big deer. I hunted that deer harder than any deer. I literally almost hunted that deer every day. I mean literally, you know that I had any any time I had the right window that year. Because he didn't live on the farm, I could hunt, and I knew I had to be there if I was going to catch the one time that he was going to walk through there, you know, And it just so happened. At three different times I was able to get on him, but I just couldn't get him close enough. And I do believe I was going to kill him the last night that the last time I had him, which is on New Year's Day, but a neighbor ended up um coming down to the woods and messing things up, and I just couldn't get so he shrunk down and he took off. But I think that was the night I was actually I thought I was going to get a shot. Well then it just wasn't meant to be and it didn't happen. So um, But you know there's times I'm really aggressive and I'm moving on deer, you know, um, especially when you're out of state and you only got so many days to make it happen. You know, you've got nothing to lose, you know, you gotta move you gotta hunt the fresh sign. And you know, I'm sure you've heard of Andre. You know, he still lone wolf. I mean, he is a very aggressive hunt, you know, he is. His style is way different than some people's, you know. Um, Andrea does things that most people like me would crawl under the couch and go why are you doing that? You know? But it works for him, you know, I mean his bumping dump tactic where he actually literally goes into the thickets and bumps those deer out, and then he sets up and on to the next morning early and catches him coming back, and it's worked for him, you know. Um. I think a lot of that depends too, though, on what areas you're hunting and what them deer are used to experiencing. You know. Um, I think if you're in a very hard hunted area, you can't do that very often. You know. If you're in an area that the deer, you know, I haven't been pressured so much, you can get away with that a little more, and those deer going to come back to their betting areas and not feel so so bad about it, you know. But you know there's different texts. Sometimes you just got to feel the deer out. You know, you just got to know that dear's personality and how he reacts to things. How how many times do you need to see a buck do something before you change your strategy to take advantage. So I'm thinking of it a specific instance, you know that I had recently where you know, I hung a new stand, went in there and hunted, and I saw mature buck that I want to shoot, but he can't about, you know, a hundred hundred yards away from where I want him to. So then that next day I was, Okay, I know he came out there. Do I move my stand to be there because that's where it was last night? Where do I wait one more night to determine if that's a pattern or if he's gonna you know, maybe he would have been right by my stand if I would stayed there. How do you make that decision? Do you move right away? Or do you wait and try to learn a little more? Well a lot of time it's time factor too. But the first thing I try to do is figure out, okay, well, what why did he come out down there instead of right here? You know, So then you look at the wind, you look at the different factors and you try to figure out, Okay, is he betting somewhere different than I saw it, or is he betting in that area? And the wind was right for him to come into the field there, and so he felt good about it. Um, did you see a lot more deer come out in that spot with him than where you were at? Um? You know things like that. I mean, that's kind of the factors. I know, there's really a right answer for that. But you know, I mean, I I will move eventually if it's not paying it out, And sometimes I may just go ahead and put a stand there anyways, leave the one I already had, and put one in that position to be able to take advantage of that wind again, because say, you know, a lot of times I'll base it on the movement that I saw, you know what I mean, because you never know, it might have just been a smelly dough that brought him out in that corner that night, you know. Um. But then I also look at Okay, why did I have the stand where I had at the very first time? You know, you obviously put that stand there for a reason, and so then you have to depict what have you seen him there before? With a new farm and you just set up on the field and you saw a consistent deer movement, you know, in one area, Well, then I definitely moved you know. Yeah. I want to take a step back to something you kind of touched on a little bit ago when you were talking about I can't wra how we got there, but you mentioned like during the late season, lots of times with your clients, specifically, you won't even have them hunt in the mornings. Um, because all of you be back to bed. Can you can you share me a little bit more about your thoughts on morning hunts in general throughout the season, because at least me and Dan talked about this a lot, and I tend to shy away from morning hunts in the early season in the late season, Um, what's your philosophy on morning hunts at different times in the year. Yeah, well that's pretty much my philosophy. I mean, you know, um, early season, that's very hard. I feel. I'm not saying you can't, but I just feel that you're really lessening your chances of a particular deer. Now, can you kill deer in the mornings on acorn flats and the timber? Yeah, you sure can't, you know, but you've got to figure out how you're getting in there and how you're getting out of there, you know. And that's where a lot of people don't understand that. Yeah, I mean it may not be affecting the general, dear population, but what it is affecting is the deer that they ultimately wanted to shoot. You know. Um, if you're lucky enough, can you get in here and you killed at the first time in and you knew that, dear, well, that's different. But um, the more times your trapes and in there in the mornings or hunting field edges in the morning, I mean you're you're bustling those deer out of those fields in the mornings even going in there, you know, um that time of year. So I typically I typically do not hunt mornings until about the twenty third twentieth of October. If the deer's even telling me that I can hunt him at that time. Yeah, so some late season is the same. Okay, So you got me thinking about something else when you mentioned October twentieth time frame, give or take. There's you know, there's this uh popular buzz worth the October lull. Do you do you believe in the October lull. Do you have a certain way that you hunt during that mid October time frame or do you just stay away completely? Well, I mean I got I hunt when I got time to hunt, you know, and if the deer is telling me I can hunt him, I'm gonna hunt him. Um. You know, I do think that deer kind of take a little fiesta to a degree, you know, especially if it's really hot weather. You know, they're not going to move the greatest, you know, but that's when you really have to be tuned in on your gear and what they're doing, you know, being an outfit or I gotta produce gear all the time for these guys, you know. And so again it doesn't always work. I mean it really don't. You know. Sometimes we struggle and we're you know, get frustrated and you know, so it's one of those things where you know, the guys tend to generally listen to me. Then they start figuring out that you know, we kind of do know what we're talking about. Instead of trying to hunt mornings and you know, at certain times a year, because the deer movement generally becomes good it maybe the last half hour of daylight, but they're going to see a lot of deer, you know, um so, but I do believe that there is a little bit of a lot over law, you know, especially if the weather is really hot and stagnant. You know that that can affect the big times. But I also think that deer move a little better than some people think. You know, everybody wants to hunt Halloween, November. I really like, I love that I've killed two booners on October. Wow, Why do you think of that time frame? So good for you? Because I just I think them bucks are they're just getting I don't know how you say it, but there they can just feel it. I guess I think they just start to feel bucky. You know, their testosterone is getting to that level where they know that. You know, they're just feeling a little more dominant. They're rubbing harder, they're really marking their territories, um you know. And I mean the big big Bucks seemed to be the last ones to really partake of the breeding and start the chase phase. And but they're also the last ones to stop, you know. That's why. You know, Thanksgiving Day and in November, you're driving home from Grandma's and you see a one n slob standing in the middle of a field, you know, by a house, you know, just walking across her like he loves, you know, because they're just that's what they do. You know, they're they don't want to stop, you know, it's harder to get him going, So you feel that they're they're the big mature bucks are don't go and seek out the very first dough that's hot. Well, I'm not gonna say that they're. I mean, if they know where there is one, I'm not gonna say they're not that they won't go after him. But I just don't feel that they do it in a manner of where all these year and a half and two and a half year old bucks running all over like Matt, and everybody thinks the ruts. Everybody's thinking the ruts on, you know, because you see it all the time. Where these guys are. You know, I saw six bucks today, Well every one of them was, you know, a spiker to you know, two a hundred inchindeer running wild, you know, and everybody's thinking the ruts in. Well, you know, and I mean I'm not trying to be a smart but when I say that, I'm just saying, you know, my experience as an outfitter and hunting, and just the crowd of people that I talked to that are successful big deer killers. You know, we all agree. I mean it's those bucks don't move. You know, it's still early, you know, those bigger ones. You know they'll start roman but you just don't seem to see him, you know. But where I catch them, like killing that deer last year on you know, I caught him in his core area though, you know, And I was just inside the timber in a good funnel between betting and dough betting, between his betting area and the do betting area. That's where I caught him. So do you think that you know, we always talk about when to take your vacation, and a lot of guys are taking it the first or the second week of November. And you're saying, you like the last weekend in the last weekend in October and the third weekend in November. Yeah, well, I mean I'm going by size of deer now too. I mean, you're not going to see near the amount of deer, you know, And that's where it's hard for guys. So if they if they want to be in action and have their chances. Obviously, you've got a better chance that's shooting a decent buck when the run is really kicking, you know, because you're just gonna see more gear and you you know, and them big slobs get shot at that time. And you I'm not saying they don't, you know, But when I find hunting a lot, with this fiddy country and things, I encounter too many times the deer that I really wanted the kills tied up with that dough because them does seek those bucks out. People don't think that, but them does. In this hilly country where I live, the does look for the big bucks. They know where the mature, dominant buck is at and they go to him, and sometimes he never has to leave that hollow. M So when you are when we are into that rough phase, you know, let's say somewhere in November for a lot of us here in the Midwest at least, how do you go about trying to get on that most mature buck in the area, Because I know, like you mentioned, there's other times the year that might be better to get a hold of him. Um, how do you best take advantage of that time if you have If that's when you're hunting. What do you do to try to find that mature buck that's that's hold up somewhere. Well, I don't. What I try to do, honestly, is I'll either hunt, I hunt thick, you know, if I got to be in the timber, I mean, because what happens is a lot of times the dough is quick going to the opening because they quick going to food because they're gonna get harassed by every buck in the country and they know it, you know. And I don't know if you've noticed that, but they start backing off one of those foods worses and making big appearances. Um So a lot of times. With I'll do then, is I have to find ways if I'm out of state or even here, if i'm crunch time, I'll get in deep and I'll hunt those six spots where I know those bucks bed or where I know because a lot of times he'll bring him back to his bed um, you know. Or I'll try to hunt the doe betting areas where I'm gonna try to catch him looking for that dough and cruising, you know, cruising that area for hot dough in his core. Gotcha. It's all about getting getting in there where where most other guys don't want to go right. Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying guys won't go in there. It's just a matter of doing it in the right way, you know. An I'll hunt the down wind sides of those areas. I don't dig right in the middle of it. I hunted outside edge, you know. I hunt that transition zone on the down wind side. You know. Um, because you know, big fat bucks are lazy. You know, they'll get in the thick stuff and route em does out, but he's not going to do it till he smells her in there, because I mean, they can smell a trillion times better than a human, you know. And what they can smell, I mean, they can smell a hot dough so far away it's ridiculous, you know. And so them just cruising the down wind side of a thicket. That's why a lot of times you'll see them in the hill country, they just run half hillside and they'll check every trail along that hillside that comes off the ridge or up the ridge that goes up to it. And they're just running hillside, checking trail to traield to trail until they hit the track the top and then all of a sudden, you'll see them shoot down or up whichever way they felt you went. Yeah, speaking of speaking of hillsides and stuff, given the fact that you live in hilly country and hunting love areas like that, Um, are there any specific types of terrain features like that or in addition to that that you found deer you know, behave consistently around or us in a certain way. Can you elaborate on any of those types of types of features you mean as far as like in the hills or just any you know, yeah, you mean any kind of it could be any Yeah, Well, I mean like in the hills, and I noticed a lot the bucks bed. You know, you'll get a lot of bucks to bed, you know, three quarters of the way up. You know, they bed in a manner to where they can watch below them and get the wind in their back, you know. Um, and and you know, and you'll see that even in a little more open timber, they'll bed notes areas that they got a law of the roof ball that's popped up to taken because they have access of escape. You know, they can get away, um, because they can see you coming from a long ways, or they can smell you from a long ways. Um, But you know, I noticed it just seems to me that, you know, I'll catch big bucks up on the ridge. And I like to hunt ridges because I can keep my wing consistent, you know. Um, but I'll catch a lot of those deer up on those spots, you know, late mornings, you know, when I am hunting mornings, it seems like that's when I'll catch those bucks in those areas. It's coming back up into those spots, um, you know, in the evenings. I typically we'll try to hunt a little lower, you know, um, catching them coming down to the food sources you know, or to a food source, and you know, looking for those catching them on those dough trails, you know, if they're smelling for those Okay, okay, I mean transition is a major factor. I mean that that's one thing that people learn to pick out transition zones. And what I mean by transition it could be you know, small timber to big timber, thick brush to medium sized timber, um, you know, swamp to hardwoods crp to you know, would any of those areas you're going to find buck tracks, you know, and those are good places to try to scout from this especially this time of year. You know, like backtrack and just see what you're doing. It's it's all about that edge, right, just like you, Just like you mentioned with with your upcoming show. Um, so with I guess I'm as I meant, as you're talking about some of these different places that you're setting up, and I got to thinking about your actual setup. Do you have any typical things that you always do when you set up a tree stands? There a certain height or certain way you like to face or stand. Um, any anything specific about how you actually get your your stand setups up that you like to share. I'm big uncover, you know. I mean I'm not necessarily a big believer in that you've got to be high. I'm I'm more a believer in your background has to be you have to be hidden. Um. You know I've killed you know, I fill my partner Kim Wood shoot a deer seven feet off the ground. We was in a little cedar tree and I mean we literally could almost There was times I could have kicked the dough in the face. I think. Um, but you know it's all about cover in my mind, you know, being hidden. Yes, the higher you are, you can get a little better wind consistency, or maybe get away with something. But like I said, we try to hunt the wind anyways, and so we're not so much worried about that. We try to get hidden, especially when you've got two guys in the tree and your run cameras wherever I can get into the cover, into a crotch and feel hidden, you know, And I try to place my stand where I don't have to do a bunch of moving to get the shot if possible. Um, you know, I some times you have to pick just a straight pole type tree, which you know is not my favorite by no means, but um sometimes you have to that's all you got. But um, I really like to pick you know, limmi forky type trees. You know, trees are holding their leaves and they're in a good spot. You know a lot of your white oaks and beach will be holding their leaves light in the year. Scarlett, hope those are good trees to pick if you have them. Interesting. Yeah, I love hearing about all the different specific details like that. Once you it definitely seems like there's patterns that emerged with different types of hunters. But when it comes right down to it, covers it is probably the most important thing. If you can make sure you're not getting spotted in the tree, you can you can get away with some things that maybe other things that maybe aren't perfect. So yeah, I agree Dan, Dan over there, I know you probably need to bounce soon. Do you have any final question for Ben before we wrap things up? Anything that's still in your mind? Well, like he said, I have probably thirty seven thousand more questions I'd like to ask, but we don't have time time for that. One question I always ask people, though, is what do you feel what's one thing that sticks out in your head that most hunters do wrong when going after a big buck? Mm hmm. Boy, that's a tough one there. I mean, you know, I think sometimes hunting too much? I think, you know, Um, That's one thing I've taught myself over the years is hunt smarter, not harder, um, you know. And it all depends on the deer. You know. If you know that that deer isn't living on you and the only time you're gonna get him is to be walking through you on your property, then maybe you have to hunt harder than normal, you know. Um. But if you're if you think you can be in that deer's roundhouse. Then I think you have to play your cards right and you wait for the movement to be correct, you know, um, whether it be a weather front or a high pressure system, or the right wind or the correct moon. You know, a rising moon, you know in the fall. Um. You know when you're driving down the road and you see that moon in the sky, you know, two three o'clock in the afternoon, already starting to rise. Those are great days to be in a stand. But if the weather coninsides what it makes a lot better, you know, I mean um and saying with the late falling moon in the morning, you know, morning's hunt. Morning hunts are really good catching deer coming back to bed later from a food source for you know, staging areas when that moon is falling, because they just they're upfeeding again. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more on that, On that basic principle, I think hunting less will actually lead to you killing more if you're especially if you're targeting these mature bucks. It really is about quality over quantity um. But that's it's a hard pill of swallow, right, because people want and that's what I tell people. Look, I think if you just really love to be out there and you love to hunt, and there's nothing wrong with that, you know. I love to be out there and enjoy mother nature, you know, and just watch deer in general. But I'll fit certain spots for that. You know, I'm gonna go hunt a farm that I don't care about or that I'm not worried about, you know, trying to kill the biggest deer on that farm, you know, I mean they're trying to harm us the dough or you know, something like that, or just in general be in the woods watching gear movement, um, you know. But I'm not going to consistently go pounding into the area that I'm trying to kill a hundred nineties deer that the neighbors are trying to kill also, and I'm not going to do anything in my power. It's gonna pushing him to somebody else before I get the chance at him, you know. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's that's the trick is figuring out where that fine line is that you can walk where you can hunt enough to have the chance for success, but not some that you blow them out of the country or lose that. And I think that's for people if they pay attention. You know, if they learn how to run the trail cameras correctly, and you know they're not blowing into the timber, and they're they're smart enough to understand that the information in the data or they're collecting from the trail cameras on the edges or the scrapes or the food sources. You piece that part of the puzzle together. You know, you look at the times that those pictures were taken. You know, if you're if if those deer aren't hitting your food source un till an hour or two hours after dark consistently, well they're betting a lot farther away, then you probably have access to you know, so you either got two choices. You either got to find get access to where they're at, or you gotta hunt deeper on your property and find a way to get in there to catch them. Come into that food source before they before it gets dark. You know. Um, but if you know, if it's real late, then you're you know, you've got a big battle against you, and you're gonna have to wait until the rut, you know, or that pre rut time when those bucks are really anty. Then then that's when you can somewhat catch those deer in an unpredictable spot, you know, when they're normally not there. You know, if they start hitting those scrapes on your farm and hitting those food sources, cruising around looking for those and that pretty right at a better time, getting closer to you know, the end of day darkness or daylight, then you can somewhat put it together. Yeah, I think something you mentioned there um relates to you. I think I hear from so many guys who talk about I've got all these pictures of big Bucks on a trail camera, even during the season, but you know, I can never get I never see him and when you talk to him. It's because it's a situation like well, in some cases like you just mentioned, where all these pictures are at midnight or one o'clock, you know, four or five, six hours after daylight, before daylight the next day, and these deer like you mentioned are probably you know, far far away. They're not they're not living on that farm. So there's guys that are thinking that they just keep hunting over and over and over that magically, one day this deer is going to appear during daylight right where they've been sitting but in a lot of cases, either they are pressuring the deer so much that he's become nocturnal, or he only shows up in your property three hours after dark because he's not living there, and so to your point, you need to wait until the rut when maybe there's a better chance of him cruising through during daylight. So it's it's all about trying to put those pieces of the puzzle together and figure out how you read that intel and how that fits into what your strategy should be. It seems like, yeah, I agree, and I mean, you know, it's it's hard to display and sometimes those deer are on that property. It's just that they may be so pressured that they know that they're not going to move. So that's good and dark yeah you know. Um so yeah, yeah, that's definitely a situation you don't want to be in. But many people find themselves in that for sure. So so I want to I want to throw one more question that should been um at least for me, every season, no matter you know, no matter how well the previous season went. For me, every year, there's always at least one thing that I go into the next year thinking that I want to improve on. I always managed to find something that I've done not quite the way I wanted to. So so this year there's there's a couple of things in my mind that I want to do differently this season to try to become just a little bit more successful. Is there anything for you this year that you want to try to specifically improve on it or fix for the two thousand sixteen season that you can think of? Um, you know, I always I always want to be a better shot, you know, I mean I so I always try to make sure I practice enough and you know, put myself in those positions. And I'll tell you something that's really made a big difference for me. Is uh the h A optimizer site single pin adjustable. Um, that site has changed how I shoot, especially as I'm getting older. My eyes are getting a little you know, less than what they were and on forty one now and you know, I don't see like I did when I was twenty. But that site has really that single pin site has really changed the game for me. Um, you know, and I really did. I had a great success this year shooting here with that and so you know, and I never was a believer in those kind of sites until I tried it, and it really so I you know, I want to fine tune that, you know a little bit this year, getting better you know with that. And you know, I think just in general, as you get older, you get calmer and you start paying a little more attention to things. You know, you just realize where you can always improve, and it's it's always you know, you can maybe find better ground, you can maybe you know, hunt smarter, you know, just different things like that. Um, you know, getting my kids involved more as they get older, you know, as a key factor. That's awesome. Yeah, I think there's at least for me, that there's never a shortage of different little areas I want to tweak something or explore something a little bit differently, or just what I do. It's it seems to be an endless and never ending puzzle that we're always trying to figure out. Yeah, it's but it just seems to always go back to the basics, you know, true, it just really does. You know. It's funny how I mean, I can remember shooting my first year years ago with a illuminum arrow that was the size of a baseball bat. Seemed like and you know, triple headed broad head or you know this crazy stuff and you know it's just you know, and they work. It's just a matter of you know, we've gotten so high tech anymore that sometimes we lose sight of just the simple things that are effective. Very true, very true. So so Ben, this has been this has been super interesting. I like Dan said a couple of minutes ago, we could probably sit here and talk to you for three more days, Um, but we do need to wrap it up. So I know you mentioned a little while ago white Tail Edge. Is this new web show you've got going on? Do you want can you tell us anything more about what what that is? When we should expect to see more from it where we can find it? Yeah, well you'll be seeing is here in the next couple of weeks. Um. We have a website called white Tailed Edge dot com and it's it's actually gonna be aired um through Woodberry Outfitters, which is a store out of Coshocton, Ohio. He has a big online web sales, has three different locations for stores. Um. And you know he's basically wants to be the white Tail authority for you know, your shopping needs, you know. Um. And as this gets going, you know we're going to carry the products. You know, we already carried. He carries everything already, but he wants to, you know, we kind of want to have our own line of specific things that we carry, you know. And right now we're sponsored by Wicked Tree Gear, Redneck Blinds, h h A Sports, um, Rocky Boots you know. Um, so just different things like that Big Time which you know here in Ohio you can supplemental feed dear and uh I was just introduced a big Time last year and the results for amazing to me as far as you know what it can do for your dear, especially this time of year after their sheding. Awesome. Awesome. So you said white Tail white tail edge dot com. Yeah, white Tail edge dot com. Um, we have video blogs. You can go to what very outfitters dot com too and you can take some things there. But we have a Facebook page and I'm on Twitter and Instagram. Uh so is Tim Woods, which he's you know, my other main guide is going to be a part of it. And then I got a couple other buddies that are part of it in my wife. So um but yeah, I mean we're just basically gonna be killing deer and trying to show people what we do, and you know, hopefully it's entertaining and informative like it has been tonight for you guys. Hopefully definitely definitely a little different twists. You know, web shows are different. They're not dirty minutes shows. You know, they're gonna be eight to twelve minutes, but hopefully it's pretty darn entertaining. You know. I'm excited to check them out. I know I've enjoyed your videos in the past with the juries, so I'm sure this will be This will be great too. So we'll make sure to link to with the website and your Facebook page and various other social media links that you mentioned there, and we'll have that up on the blog post for for this episode, So Ben, thank you. We we also have Wicked Ridge out Fitters, so you can go there to find us Wicked Ridge out Fitters dot com. That's my outfitting business. And then, uh, the Hantah is just funny about the high and tight deer that hunter fours just your that's actually on Bone Collector, which it showed already in January, but it'll show again two more times this season, I think. So if people want to watch a Bone Collector, you know, I'll show they'll be able to see that nice perfect That would be cool. How how big was that one again? Three and like three eights or something? Wow? Yeah, we'll definitely want to check that out. So this has been great, Ben, I really appreciate you joining us so so thank you so much. And good luck this next season. Okay, buddy, you have a good night. Thanks for having me. Alright, So there you go. Interesting stuff, don't you think. Ninety four episode us in And I gotta say, I still haven't heard from a single guest yet who doesn't at least have some little unique angle or slightly different way to go about things. And I love that. I love that every time we talk to someone we can learn something new. And everybody's got a slightly different way of going about them so there certainly are a lot of different ways to skin this cat, and I suppose that's part of what makes all this so much fun. There's lots and lots to learn, no doubt about that. So well that I all said, before we wrap this up, we do need to give a big thank you to our partners who helped make the Wire to Hunt podcast possible. So big thank you too. Sick a Gear Trophy Ridge Bear Archery, Redneck Blinds, Hunter a, Maps, Ozonics, Carbon Express, Lacrosse Boots, and the White Tail Institute of North America. Please help the Wired Hunt podcast by supporting these companies and letting them know that you're enjoying the show. So, finally, and most importantly, thank you for joining us today. We appreciate you tuning in and spending a little bit of time with us. So until next time, have a great week, good luck shed hunting, and stay Wired to Hunt. M h M m

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