00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon in this episode number seventy eight. Today in the show, we're joined by certified wildlife biologist Matt Ross, and we're discussing the science of the white tail rut. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sick of Gear, and today we're diving straight into the heart of the topic that I know is on the top of all of your our minds and mine and Dan's the white tail rut. And our guest today is a wildlife biologist and Quality Deer Management Association staff member, Matt Ross. And we brought Matt in the show today to help us dive into the science of the white tail rut. And you know, we hear a lot about different theories and ideas about the rut, and a lot of that is just kind of one off stuff thought up by a random hunter or quote unquote expert, but there actually is some real data and research that's been done across the country related to white tales and their behavior at this time of year, and Matt is an expert on this stuff as he studied many of the reports and research projects that have been done related to deer and the rut. So today he's going to share with us everything he's learned on that front. But before we do give him out a call, as we like to do every week, staying right on task and on topic, we're going to give you a low down on what's happening with me and our co host Dan Johnson. So, Dan, I hear you've been seeing some bucks. Well, let me talk about what I had for lunch first. Yeah, let's get to that. Wait wait, wait, wait wait, speaking of food, Speaking of food, can I just say I posted a picture diet ship. Yeah. I posted a picture of the junk food that I bought for my all day sits during the rug and I get, you know, easy to eat package stuff that will get me through snacking throughout the whole day. So, I got some Mountain dew, I've got some cheese it's I've got some oreos, I've got apples, and I've got peanut butter and jelly for you crunchy peanut butter. Um. So I posted a picture of all my snacks, and then people just came out of the woodwork slang me saying how unhealthy I am and how I can do better, and how they don't want me to die because they want to keep listening to the podcast, and where's my diabetics testing kit? And all sorts of up. I got lamb basted, Dan, I tell you, it's almost like you went on Archery Talk and asked asked for product information. That's what happens when I whenever I go anywhere, it's like, oh man, that sucks, or stupid like Mark Kenyon. Maybe they're just worried for your well being. I mean, I appreciate that if that's the case, But that's the last time I post. Any pictures are laid to the food I eat. No way, no what you gotta keep doing it every year every year. No, I want you to take a picture every every meal you eat, like when you're stuffing a twinkie slowly in your mouth. I might do that careful to ask for that would be awesome if there was if you had food in that picture that was not like carryer friendly, like you had a tenderloin, or like you had mashed potatoes and gravy. That would be amazing. If you could bring a little ziploc bag if mashed potatoes and venison to eat in the stand, that would be a heck of an all day set right there. Just imagine the scent profile that that would create. And it's just like, what the hell is there a KFC in the woods because I'm heading there. But back to, uh, what you were going to talk about before I circus on tangent? Yeah, what's going on? Oh man, Well, I'm just gonna tell you a little bit about my weekend. Uh long story short. Let's see, I've gotten to um a stand where like this year some a little bit of my focus is annual patterns, right based off you know, trail cameras for you know, trail camera information and um information that I've received from sitting in the stand and trying to put myself in those positions this year, UM, because I'll be honest, I'm behind on my trail cameras. I only have one maybe two out right now, and I'm just I've been extra busy with the family. My wife's business is picking up and that means that I have to do more tasks around the house so she can work, and I've just I haven't had to. I have not hunted as much as I wanted to, so I've been thinking about this. Yeah, I think we got to talk to Sarah. She needs to quit this side job because it's interfering with your hunting time. Dan's right. Let me, let me make sure I'm wearing a mouth guard when you tell her that she'll she'll or she'll low blow you. She will, she will kick. She would kick your ass, she'd kick my ass. She seems like the type that I don't want to mess with her. She's a fire, but I love her to death. She won't listen to this, so it doesn't really sorry continue so anyway. Um, So that's as far as anal patterns are concerned, That's what I've been trying trying to do. So I went to a location off of Marsh where last year I was getting daylight pictures at the beginning of a cold front. So it just so so happened to coincide as with last year's kind of weather as well, and I hunted. Um, I hunted a stand near a marsh on I see Friday night, and I had a couple of young deer come through right off the bat and uh, just kind of mill around and they didn't do much. I saw a couple of dolls in the distance, but no mature deer. Um. So then Saturday morning, I was going into one of my best stands. I had the right wind for it, everything was perfect, and on my way in, I walked by with my head lamp on. I could see the glow in their eyes, like fifty yards away from me, probably about seven or eight doze, just kind of working their way back towards this pattern. So my access route in there, I decided to go straight line in and I should have taken a different route, but um, because typically I never run into deer on here. So it just so happened that we crossed paths at the same time. They didn't spook, that didn't blow. I made it to my stand and they or That morning I had an encounter with a really good three year old. UM. I don't know you. Did you happen to watch the footage I posted online? I did? Yeah, what would you? He's probably one forty maybe low one forties, if if one forty at all. We're talking about the one that comes right with your stand right right right. Yeah, I would say that I was thinking a little less. Yeah, probably maybe one thirty five ish maybe, I don't know, but you know what what stuck up to me is and I'm I don't claim to be an expert on it, but man, his neck was huge. Yeah he was. He had a huge neck. And I'll tell you what, I'll be honest with you. I had thoughts of shooting that dear for you know, he was a big He had a big neck, but passed his shoulders, said three year old all the way. I mean, he had a skinnier body, and uh, he just wasn't the mature dear that I'm looking for. Or um. I was just like, man, I should shoot him, and I should Uh, I should shoot him, and I should try to, you know, just end my season right now. And but my inner, I guess uh management started talking and was like, no, you gotta let him go, bud. So I let him walk. I tore everything down out of that stand, left the stand up because I didn't know what where I was going to hunt that night, and I had a couple of options in mind, and so I I saw that that deer and I'm just like, you know what, I saw plenty of deer. I'm just gonna go back to the same stand. So I went back to the same stand Saturday night, and uh, you know it, it was cloudy and sprinkle e and it didn't I mean it was sprinkling and missing and it just and then it started clearing up. As the evening went on, the wind started blowing, and then it started settling down, and I started seeing some doze. I'm not a huge fan of sitting on field edges as I've as you know, and um, these deer coming from a different place than I've ever hunted before. Out onto this field. There's a couple of doughs that started feeding and then um, later on I saw a young buck, maybe one two year old come out and uh start pushing some of these doughs around, and then outsteps I mean you can just tell a darker coat, a way bigger body than the other buck that was out there, and he was a big ten pointer. Um, he was about a hundred fifty yards. I was able to um look at him just a bit through my binoculars and uh, he wasn't chasing does, but he was bumping them. So he was going up to him smelling him. He would know that they're not ready yet, right, and then they would run up. Then they'd kind of run and he wouldn't follow him. So he did that to like two or three of the dose, and then he just walked across the field. And then as the as the young buck was chasing him, he put his ears back and he started making aggressive, aggressive moves towards this buck, this younger buck. So I thought to myself, Hey, I'm gonna rattle. I'm gonna see if I can get him in. And I rattled, and he just kept working his way down the down the field, and uh, then I just lost him and time ran out, and um, I didn't hunt Sunday morning because the wind. Uh, the wind was not right for any of the stands that I had set, and I didn't want to go in and set up a new stand for um in a place where I thought there might be potential shooters. It's just it's it's a little risky of making all that noise and leaving all that scent. Got Well, hey, it sounds like you had some fun sets. You saw some pretty nice bucks. Yeah, so I got a I got an idea of where where some of them are coming in, Where they're going out. Not a lot of sign yet. I haven't. I didn't see a lot of sign um, but I did. Kind of a side story, I've seen a guy out working his cat also. I stopped and I talked to him. He's a neighboring landowner, and it's always kind of good to see know for a fact what happens to deer. He's like, oh man, what happened to this year? I've seen him two years in a row. Now he's gone, well, I had the buck that I passed, or well I would have shot him if he was just a little bit closer or offered a more of a broadside shot last year, like the first two weeks so of October, I think big nine pointer, big nine pointer. He ended up shooting that deer during shotgun season. So it's kind of cool to know that, hey, this buck has make it. Now here's the cool thing. This guy tells me. He goes, this was the biggest buck I've ever seen, really, so I shot it. Yeah. So that just tells me that these people that are out, these landowners, these people that are out hunting, they don't really pay attention like us bow hunters do. I'm not saying, you know, I'm not trying to categorize shotgun hunters and bow hunters, but there's a you know, some of these people they just don't focus like us hardcore guys do. And you know, I got like six deer that are bigger than this nine pointer out there and there. You know, they go in, they do their thing, and when they're done, they're done. You know, no big deal if that's the way you hunt, and that's the way you hunt. So but it's kind of cool knowing that, hey, this is why this is this is one of the another reason why there's big deer in the area. Yeah, And I think it also speaks to the fact that if you pay attention to the details like we try to do, it gives us the opportunities to see some of these deer that a lot of people don't. So his off. How about you, UM, relatively uneventful weekend? Um sort of? I was originally, I think I think last time we talked, I might have been talking about the fact that I was originally planning going to Ohio last weekend, UM, but the weather forecast just did not look good. It was gonna be really warm, like seventies even almost eighty degrees on Saturday. UM, so I kind of looked at, Okay, this looks like it's going to be kind of subpar weekend down there. Do I go down there when I'm not really having high hopes of any real potential or that I nixed the hunt and instead put in some time with the family. And that's what I end up deciding to do. So I did not go to Ohio, and instead I just spent some time with the wives, spent some time with the in laws, spent some time with my mom, dad, um, and just trying to get things in the line before my big rut trip. But I did get out for two evenings back home here in Michigan hunted Thursday night. I saw a bunch of doughs, but nothing of too much interest and couldn't get a shot at one of them. And then Sunday night, I wasn't planning on hunting, but I got home back from my family event earlier than I thought I would, and I had like an hour and a half a daylight left, and it just felt good outside and I was like, I want to be in a tree right now. So I just scurried ran out to one of my closest tree stands um that I can get too close for my house, and gotten that true with like an hour and fifty minutes a daylight left, and I ended up shooting a nice deal that night. And right after I shot this dough, out of this little pocket of bedding cover comes the top buck on my Michigan property. Um. Now, since I had killed a buck on this farm earlier this year, I wasn't going to shoot any other deer unless like some random deer from out of nowhere showed up. There was a mega giant. But if one of the deer that I knew was living in the area showed up, I decided that I wasn't going to shoot him. So this was one of those nice year. And he's a three year old um, but a really nice Michigan three year old um in my opinion, for for Michigan. He was cool. So it was really fun to see him coming too the food plot and he just fed foot ten fifteen minutes and I just watched and light faded and it got too dark, and then he walks right underneath my tree stand. Um, which is fun just you know, yeah, but it was it was fun because you know, in so many situations. One a buck that you would usually shoot when you see him, you're in shoot mode, you're in hunt mode, and you're you know, all fired up and focusing on just trying to get the shop. But you know, in this case, it was fun just to not worry about that and to just you know, it's fun to sometimes pass under and just get to enjoy the moment um, which is what I did there. But as soon as he came underneath my stand, he saw these doughs and then he started chasing these doughs all around, um, which you know, is a little bit earlier than most of the time that I see in Michigan these three year olds. Again, I think these three year olds in Michigan act more like four or five year olds and some of the lower pressure states just because of the intense pressure here, so lots of times I'm not seeing a buck of that age getting after it till you know, another week from now. But but he was getting a little frisky, so that was nice to see. It was fun and saw lots of young bucks chasing around like crazy. There was a deer run and all over that night, so it was a fun hunt. And uh, I got a door on the ground and the fraser. So I'm primed, I'm feeling good. Had a nice clean kill on her. She was dead in like ten seconds. She ran off thirty yards and flipped over and that was it. So it feels good to you know, have that in the back pocket heading into the rut. So the cool thing about this is is what I really like the story that you said is the fact that you you you took a buck and then you said to yourself, you know, I don't need to take another buck off this property, even though it was your your top hitlist off the property. Now, what you've done is you've made a conscious effort to put you know, basically actions behind your words as far as management is concerned. And you know, for anybody who's listening that that's a great that's a that's a great thing to help not only you and your property, but the entire state of Michigan to improve their dear their dear quality. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right, And I think, you know, more and more people every year are starting to practice some form of of deer management, and um, you know, it's helping, and you know, I know there's a good chance that these Bucks could get killed during guns season, but you know, if I shot him, there's no chance to make it through. So um, So yeah, I'm really hopeful that this buck and then the eight pointer that I missed on opening night. Um, and then there's one other eight pointer who has been off and on in the area. If a couple of those guys make it through, they'll be just they'll be awesome. Michigan there next year, just toad probably big eight pointers four year old and that would be awesome if I had a couple of nice four year olds to chase next year in Michigan. So that's my hope. My fingers are crossed hoping they're gonna make it. And I'd love to, you know, continue to get to know these deer, learn about them this year, watch them and get pictures of them so that next year I'll have a good idea of what I need to do to get an air on one. So and just kind of heads up to those who are listening as far as if you know, if you pay attention to the moon at all this week going into this weekend, um, we have a setting moon and a rising sun. So I'm not sure what day it is this week if it's this later this week or this weekend, we're gonna have the moon setting, you know, like ten degrees in the air and the sun rising at the same time. And according to some of these guys who believe in that moon's phase, that's an optimal and optimal time. Yeah, great point, Dan, And also another thing, um, And we'll talk to Matt here in second, and he'll share some research that they've shown about the moon. Um. But there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that support some of these. There is an Adam Hayes, one of our past podcast guests you remember, probably talking about the moon guy he uses and paying attention to the overhead under foot times. Well, the moon will be overhead during the last couple of hours of daylight on this Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Perfect. You should be really good days in the evening. So um, I'm gonna be out in Ohio on Thursday and Friday, hoping to take advantage of that. And there's a little bit of cool weather Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and then Saturday morning I'm gonna drive to Iowa in your home state and hunt there for the next week. So exciting stuff to come. I can't wait to help you drag a deer out, man, I hope so I uh um, like I know, for like Friday is Friday night. I got a south southeast wind right and I'm going into Mark Kenyan territory. Oh baby, so off this ridge that he's He's been known to bed Truill Cameron pictures of him throughout the entire season. So I'm I'm foaming at the mouth and trying to you know, I'm getting out of work early, going to get into the stand early and get my win blowing off into this ridge and hopefully h he comes through or somebody or comes through that and bingo bengo, right, bengo bango. But hey, man, we are as we tend to get doing lately on we need to get the pro on the line here. We need to give Mat a call, So let's go ahead and do that right now. But as you might have expected, we do need to pause briefly for a word from our partners at Sick of Gear, who are making this podcast possible. So as we've been doing over the past couple of months, we've got Sick of Product category leader Dennis Suck with us, and I want Dennis to share with us what is ideal layering system from SICKA would be for a typical November rut hunt. Here's Dennis. Yeah, Mark, I think a lot of that had to do with your your and I'm in the same boat. You know, I'm gonna be here all day, you know, So if I'm going out, I'm gonna spend all day. Um, it's gonna be pretty cold. I'm not gonna be create. I'm not moving at all. I'm seditary, you know. I got to maintain and hold every bit of warmth I might have, you know, So I'm gonna make sure that you know, this is where I might pull my marino out or get a marino bass layer, you know, something that's going to be warmth to wait, really warm. I'm also probably be hunt and so that range emotion still matters a lot to me. So I'm gonna gonna make sure I have an insulation layer, so I have something that that I can bulk up if things get cold. I want to make sure I have a good bass layer that's gonna still keep me warm right up against my skin. Um, I'm gonna make sure that I have some kind of rain protection in my bag, you know, so I have, you know, whether it's a pack up piece or something that I can pull out if it gets if it gets nasty, I don't wanna have to walk out, you know. So I'm thinking about all those things. Um if I'm thinking about that for sitcom, I'm thinking about that with probably our Marino bass layers. And I'm thinking about that with our fanatic system um our fanatic coodies. One that's important to me because there's a lot of that day that I may not wear my jacket. You know, it's warmer, I can wear that hoodie and I feel really good. And I'll probably put a downpour system in my backpack. So those are the things that for me, I like to have. I think that's what I would wear doing the right you know, people are honest, is what I do. Were doing the hunt. So there you have it. If you're interested in picking up some last minute gear before the rut or checking out any other items from sick, visit sick of gear dot com. And now let's get Matt on the line. All right with us. Now on the line is Matt Ross. Welcome to show. Matt, thanks for having me. Yeah, I uh, you know, I get to talk to you a lot with some of the work that we do. But I'm excited to actually have you on the show here to speak with a lot of our listeners because you're a guy that I know has a lot of insight and education when it comes to wildlife and deer and what they do. And you know, me and Daniel a little bit about your background, and I shared just a little bit at the top of the show. But for our listeners who aren't familiar with you or what you do, could you give us a little bit of background into your education and background about what you do relate to white tails? Now you know how you've got to that point. Yeah, sure, I'd be happy to so. I currently work at the Quality Deer Management Association. You probably said that, but um, I'm from the Northeast. I live in New York State. Um, you know, first and foremost, I'm a deer hunter. Grew up, you know, in a family of deer owners, and it's what drove me to a career of looking at deer and wanted to do stuff with deer. Um And I vividly remember growing up, you know, wanting to do something along those lines. And when I was in high school, I found out there was a career that you could do this, and then it was you know, just drove me right towards it right away. So I went to school for and got a degree as a bachelor's for wildlife and actually worked for our local Department of Environmental Conservation that's kind of our d n R in New York State for a few years as a technician, and then went back to school and got my master's and uh, you know, and they had to do with deer. My my master's project actually had to do with deer in northern New England up in New Hampshire, and I get to work one on one with deer that we're in a research facility, which was an amazing experience. And when I finished school, actually was in the middle of writing my thesis, I got a job working for a consulting company throughout the Northeast. Mostly they were a forestry based consultant company. I was hired as the as the wildlife person on staff, and I got to work with landowners and townships and uh some other private entities writing management plans sometimes about deer, but not always and uh, I really enjoyed that experience, and that company actually did a lot of forest management. So while I was there, I started picking up some of the forest management stuff. I had actually had a minor in that, and UH enjoyed that so much. I ended up following that side of the profession as well and became licensed as a forester. And by the time I was done working at that firm, I was marking timber and working with and contractors and prescribing forest management as well as wildlife And it was a really really valuable part of my professional experience, and as a deer honor to seeing that marriage between managing habitat and UH you know what you can do with deer and are along the time it was like thousand that's when I learned about q d M A And I actually was introduced to q d M A M from a colleague who I think you've had on the show before, Kip Adams, and I learned about it and I joined, and I became a member initially and actually started a local what we call branches are chapters, little grassroot movements, and UH did that with friends and started up doing that as a volunteer, and eventually a job opened up and I applied, and now it's almost ten years later, I've been working for q d m A and I've done a variety of different things at qt m A. But today I run our private lands program, that's what I call it. I'm my title a little bit different than that, but I run our dear Steward courses and which are individual classes people can take, and our land sort of vacation program. So if you own land or your lease in land and you want to get that property certified or assessed by a q d m A inspector, I run both of those, among many other things at the organization as well. So in short, you do a lot of stuff related Deer every day. Yeah, every day. It's a good job. It's a good job, a good job. So what we're hoping to garner from you today, Matt, given your background, given the fact that you've been deep into this stuff for you know, fifteen years or more, it sounds like well over that actually. You know, we talk a lot on this podcast about strategies and tactics, and we have a lot of different people come on here and share their ideas and their theories and what they've seen, and a lot of that is anecdotal though, and I do know though there's been a lot of research done. There's a lot of science related to deer because you're are, you know, the most popular abundant game species out there, and so because of that, obviously there's a lot of attention paid to them. Um, but we don't often actually get to dive into that science. So I thought with you here, we could really dig deep into that the actual research science data behind some of these theories or ideas that we have. And I don't think I know many people that understand the stuff better than you do. So that's kind of the the plan and theme where we're going here. High high pressure on you, met, because we're really depending on you to educate us. So yeah, no worries and and you know I always remember too, I already said it once. You know, I am a deer hunter. And there's a lot of things out there in the research, you know, when you get into like peer reviewed research, and we can talk about all the nuances of that too. You know, it's looking at something that's site specific, and um, you can also take some second guess of there. But being a deer hunter is there's some results in some of the research out there that myself and other colleagues and stuff. It just seems like head scratches like that just doesn't seem like it's the case. But um, you know, from what I've seen in my own anecdotes, but the research says that, you kind of it's not always a gospel. You can't always just say you know, the research says this, so it must be true. UM. It gives you clues and you kind of piece it all together. So yeah, I'm happy to share what I've learned. And UH actually had the advantage a couple of years ago for convention UM I was assigned the task of presenting all this material as one of our presentations at our national convention about specifically mature box, looking at UH mature box and what they how they moved, how their home ranges looked UM and looking at GPS research because over the last probably decade or so, a lot of the movement research on deer and again specifically talking about bucks has evolved because the collars that they're using today are just um, just phenomenal compared to the technology fifteen years ago, over twenty years ago, where there was res with radio collars that they're you know, triangulating and using transmitters to try to locate a deer based on getting a couple of different lines of sight of where that that buck might be. But now, I mean, you guys all know, I mean the technology and a smartphone today is just amazing. The same technology exists in GPS units where these deer getting located by the minute, sometimes in the middle of the rot and they really know where they are. So, uh, that has fine tuned a lot of it. And looking at that research, the more recent research on box and compiling that for that presentation really allowed me to all sort of just frame into my own mind what what's happening. And Uh, there's been a lot of positive feedback at the organization in the magazine and um on our website, you know, cutium dot com. People love talking about that stuff. So I'm happy to share what I've learned. Yeah, I'm excited to get into that because those are some of the studies that I've taken a look at two that are pretty fascinating. Um. But but real quickly, before we dive into that aspect of it, I want to kind of set the stage with two pieces that I think kind of get us properly framed for the rest of the conversation. And number one, you know, take us from a deer's life at the end of the summer and how they are changing physiologically as you progress from the end of the summer up to this point, because a lot of things change in a deer's actual biology and body that that affect then some of these behavioral things that we're gonna talk about. Can you just walk us through how a buck is changing and where they're at right now? Um, And then I want to talk about what actually triggers the start of the run, but let's start start with the physiological aspects of what's happening. Okay, so with Box particular, and let's just talk about Box. If you want to talk about all deer or or you know, talk about specific segments of the herd, we can jump into that. But um, specifically about Box. A lot of the research what it's saying and in terms of both the resource use, um, where they exist on the landscape. You know, what they're using, what they're eating that's changing and their physiological uh, their body is changing too because they're preparing not for the rigors of the rout, but to make it through the winter. I mean that's they're evolved a long time to be able to live off of times of surplus, when there's abundance such as green food out there. It's not always you know, row crops in every part of the country. That certainly exists in a lot of the country, but if you go back eons ago, you know when when deer were around before there was large scale commercial agriculture, they lived off of what was abundant and what was green. And then in times of scarcity, when you're going into the fall, as a lot of that vegetation that's in abundance and high water content and high nutrient content is starting to what we call sinesse, you know, it's all dying back. You're losing some of that vegetation. And then again into winter, even in or temperate climates where they might not have deep snow or bad winners, there's still a time of scarcity when those food sources are disappearing. And in some of the truest sense of the word of living off their body and living off that, you know, deer are getting ready for that. So they're bulking up and they need to change what they're eating and change where they're on their landscape. So in its simplicit, you know, in its simplicity, what deer doing is going from a time when they're eating a lot of broad leaved, nonwoody vegetation forbes, um, things like you know in row crop agg or herbaceous naturally occurring vegetation that you might find in fields or on the wood edges or even in wood wooded settings too, a time where they're trying to change to a high carb, high fat diet where they're trying to put on weight, so that food change is also is also driving where they're going to be UM. So when a deer is existing in it's in its own home range. That's what we call it. Where a deer is about of the year UM where they will be found within their home range is definitely there's a lot of variation to it, and they're changing at this time of year specifically one of the biggest changes. The next time it will change again is probably when they're going into in the areas that have really bad winners and severe snowstorms and things like that, they'll change again. But you might see dear all summer going into September, UM even into early October, and now is where they're they're shifting where they live and they're shifting what they eat. And that is the primary reason why people start seeing differences in activity and visibility and observations of box because they're just changing and they're getting ready for it. Um certainly with the rock coming up, they're they're going to be uh using more of that that space, more of their home range uh and that willing cause and they also reduced their intake. That was actually some of the research I got to be part of in New Hampshire. It was really really interesting. A lot of people don't realize. I mean, there's kind of theories out there, I guess, myths that deer reduced them metabolism in winter. That's not the case. They don't change their metabolic rate at all. It's not something they have the choice of doing. Their top Their metabolic rate doesn't change. But what deer do was just reduce activity going out of the right in the winter and they live off their h their body fat, you know, all those cards that they're trying to take in their bulking up, and they can lose up to of their body weight over the winter when they're in that time scarcity. And the really interesting thing. When I was at this research facility in grad school, we had deer that were raised from you know, they were bottle fed um. You could almost like them to cattle, but they were they were a lot more wild than that. But they were fed pellatic grain or just basically bag feed, and we monitored that, you know, what we bought and what we put out there for them. And this is the case throughout the country. But they would just voluntarily stop eating in the winter, even though they had free choice to it. You know, it was they were in a time of deep cold temperatures. You're talking about northern New England, you know, deep snows, and they had food there and you would think these deer would walk, you know, a short distance within their pens to eat this food and they'd be fine. Now they you know, their ancestors had had, I guess, given them the gift of bulking up and their and their intake would go up throughout the fall and then it would stop and they would stop eating. I mean, that's just what they do. They've evolved to do that. So as the year is changing, going from you know again July August, when we're seeing dear doing what we see them do, and they're very very visible right now, you know, getting into late October, and of course you know many people are your listeners are deer hunters. They're changing again in November December for most of the country, that's their breathing season and they're going to change again. So Um, they're very adaptable. And it's based on the evolution of the animal surviving and needing to use those resources. So that that's in essence, the core of why dear behavior and activity changes is they're they're changing to survive. I have a real quick question regarding survival based off of you know, like body weight loss from the winner. Um. From my experience, I've also seen bucks lose a lot of weight during the rut because you know, they're just running all over the place. Does that happen to affect a mortality rate higher in bucks from winter kill because they're going into a winner Let's say, if it's hard, if it's a hard winter, lots of snow, um, not a lot of food. Have you have you had any research that like that. Most of that's a great question. Damn. Most of the research suggests and this is the case in a lot of those extreme environments you know, the loss of the deer heard the animals that are going to die first or the young and the oldest um. And certainly bucks are part of that, even if they're not of older age. Um, if you have an advanced age structure in your area, that they would be ones they would lose. But bucks are are just like you know they uh with young men driving you know cars are insurance rates tend to be higher than with women. You know, bucks throw a lot more risk out there, um, so you do tend to see a higher mortality from bucks. So a couple of the specifically when you're talking about research, a couple of the things that you might see there is in a situation where you have a deer herd that there is um a lot of imbalance to it, you know, but heavy winners, you might see mortality in a little bit younger ages with bucks than in other situations because those younger bucks uh are are busy trying to breed, so that they might be going into the winner with a little bit more weight loss. Um. But when you have a good, well balanced gar herd, that doesn't necessarily exist. So yeah, that can happen. I mean you can see some of your older box. Um. In situations where they're just so rut drawn down and the winter might hit early and it could be a really long they had winner, Uh, you might lose some of them. The key there, though, is not necessarily how early the winner is, or even really how how late your winner exists. Um. You can almost set a clock by it. Where this is something called a winter severity index. I'm sure Mark's familiar with that, being from Michigan. But um, there's basically be a ninety day clock of having winter that deer have that fat reserve there there there body can take loss. Uh. And that's really those late March early April for most of the North um Any, and that would be included where you are, Dan. That ninety day clock is ticking once it starts. It hasn't set right yet in most of the country. I'm sure there's parts of extreme north and up into Canada that might be it. But for the most part that clock isn't ticking yet. Um. But that clock starts sticking and once, and it's a combination of cold temperatures. You don't necessarily have to have deep snow, but either deep temperature or very low temperatures or really deep snows or a combination of the two. Um At that ninety day limit is when you start seeing loss. But for the most part, you're not gonna lose deer. If you're you could have a couple of really uh site specific bad storms in the middle of January February, deer can make it through that. They they're built to do it. Um. It's those late storms that really really can take out some of those individuals. So UM with bucks in particular, I mean, you want to see good rotting behavior, right. You want to see bucks chasing, you want to see um them running all over the place. So if you have a good balanced age structure, you should enjoy that aspect of it, not worried about losing that buck. To winner. The key there is UH. If you have a long winter that's longer than ninety days, do they have the resources on your property? Have you managed it so that they at least can get access to something that will keep them through that last week or two or three to the point where snow starts disappearing or temperatures start increasing. Interesting. So, so we we talked a little about foods impact earlier in the years, are starting to ramp up and now we've talked about the impact of the clock, the winter clock in the late season and then getting that food eventual in the spring. But the other aspect of changing, dear physiology, and this we're talking you know, September October coming into this time period right now, that the second piece of white tailed biology that's changing, as we all know, is the aspect related to breeding and rising to stosterone levels and bucks and everything like that. And the topic of the rut and when it's actually going to happen is probably like the most contentious debated desire to know topic out there when it comes to deer. I mean, this thing is just google to all get out all fall, um, and there's lots of strong opinions on it. I know where you stand on this map, but I would love to hear from you an explanation of what impacts or influences the timing of the rut, What are those, what's the factors, what's the science behind it so everyone can understand what's happening here. Okay, So when it comes down to a lot of things in the dearest physiology, and I imagine that's what you're hinting at even earlier, Um, a lot of it is driven by photo period. And I'm sure most people have heard that, but I'll explain it. That's the amount of daylight in a twenty for our period. So right now, you know, actually I think it's next weekend. Our clocks can uh get changed for the fall fall period. We all know that. You know, it's getting lighter later in the morning and it's getting darker earlier in the evening, and that's just the amount of daylight we have. Um, A lot of things in a in a world of deer is dependent on that change of photo period, and that's where you kind of get into some of this other stuff with moon and other things. I can tell you what we know through research. Um, you know, the cycle of antler growth is dependent on photo period to the point where I mean a lot of folks felt they haven't heard this before. But back in the day they were able to do a little bit different stuff with uh, you know, animal care and stuff with research. Um, there has been research that was has tested photo period with deer just to make bucks grow more than one set out of antlers in one year, just by altering the photo period of what that deer was seeing. So we all know that. You know, they grow velvet antlers, they shed that velvet, the anilers hardened. Um. They hold those hard antlers for a period of time and then um they drop them and they grow a new set next year. Um. In research, they actually have done this in a couple instances where they had uh photo controlled rooms where the deer were in and we're able to alter the amount of light to mimic basically two days in a twenty four hour period and and make a deer grow multiple sets of antlers in the year. Uh. Maybe not quite exactly like that, but that that is the case. They can do some of those things. Um. Yeah, so photo period drives antler growth. We know photo period also drives the rot or the breeding season. When you're talking about the rot, the act of you know, the popular at a population level, most dear successfully breeding and raising young you know, becoming pregnant and raising another off group of offspring another cohord Um. How do we know that? So it's a it's kind of a domino effect of chemicals and the deer's body. But as the photo period changes and there's less daylight, um, that domino effect. The end result is uh, testosterone increases in the box. Actually, their testes increase in size, and so does their neck. Their neck swells from testosterone. Just like a bodybuilder given him shelf self shots of testosterone, he's growing and muscle. That that is what's happening, and that domino effect is this chain reaction of UM. The amount of daylight going in endears eyeball, a buck's eyeball, it triggers the release of you know, the pituitary gland. There's a there's a direct line between the the eyeball and the pineal gland which is in the brain, and that releases like a type of hormone which releases uh. It's it's down the line. But basically what it does is it tells the testies to get bigger and to start producing more testosterone, and it gets the bucks primed. And uh, the same thing with with those Uh. Photo period is driving her ability to come into estrus or coming to eat heat. And they've done experiments again in the instance where they can you know, alter some of that and make a make a buck a lot more than once a year or those types of things, so UM in controlled experience, they know photo period is at the heart of all that um. You know, then you get into the nuances of well, is the moon offering more light during times of the year, and it's gonna you know, cuua win a deer breeds and things like that, and there's there's a lot of ambiguity there, you know, it's it's a little bit confusing because what we see is hunters isn't necessarily the truth of when when copulations or breeding is occurring. But um for for for the most part, none of that is impacted more than anything than daylight. And if you think about it from the perspective of most of the country, especially you know, northern northern US and going up in Canada, you're talking about a large large section of North America where deer are, it wouldn't make sense to have the moon really change when the breeding is occurring by a lot um And it can be you know, moon phase can can be a little bit different um every year, but it can be several weeks off and you could be talking about, you know, from year to year, and you could be talking about the pregnancy of the deer's two hundred days. So when you're changing when deer breeding, you're changing when the bulk of the fonds are being born and it just doesn't make It's an environmental advantage for them to have to give birth early enough in the summer or those so those fawns can get on the ground and start eating real vegetation and grow big enough so that they can make it the following winter. Um. If they're born too late, they might not make it their first winter. If they're born too early, they might not even make it to see a couple of months old. Because they could you could have one of those late storms. Um. Just like with turkey broods, you know, you might have something that happens and you lose it. And for deer, they are going to breed once a year. It's not Uh, it's not going to happen multiple times. So they have that one shot. So photo period is the core of of everything. How how long does a dough ovulate? How long does she ovulate? They're much like any other mammal, just like a human. They will come into a stress every twenty eight days. Um. So in the wild, Uh, you know, a deer can go if she's not bred a couple of times to three times. I think the most ever recorded in captivity was five or six or seven times. Now you're talking about five or six or seven months, and some of that was probably altered with what the research we're doing. But you would see, you know, for a early breeding deer October late October like right now. I'm sure there are some cases. It's a small small portion considering the bulk of deer out there, but you know there are there's deer breeding right now across the country. It's late October. H ones that come into heat and miss it. You're talking about late November, they missed it again, you're talking about late December. That's probably going to be for the ball. There might be a couple other ones that might do it a fourth time, but I mean, that's two or three times in the wild is about what you'll see. So so then Matt, if what I you know, from what I understand, given this this science, that that proves that the photo period is impacting the roup, and the photo period is consistent year after year, that for the majority of the country that you're talking about, especially in the northern portion, peak breeding dates then would be quite consistent year after and then it's a bell curve from there. So hypothetically, let's say in a lot of States. From what I understand, peak breeding is usually around that middle of November. So let's say November fifteen maybe is your peak breeding date where the highest proportion of the population is bred. And then it declines a little bit on either side of that peak. So then there's there's some breeding on the fourteenth and sixteenth, and a little bit less than the thirteenth and seventeenth, and a little bit less on the twelfth and the eighteenth, etcetera. Is that is that accurate? That that is what we're seeing when we actually look at the actual breeding dates and then the research that shows you know when those actually happened. Yeah, you're nailed on the head. I mean, it's all bell shaped curve. The difference there. And again this is coming back to me being a deer hunter. It's different than what you're seeing though. You know what you're seeing in terms of activity when deer actually breeding. UM, their behavior is very specific in terms of how white tail actually breeds. UM. They're not gregarious like elk or other herding animals, where you know, one bowl will have multiple cows. Um. White ls are driven to a phase of breeding where um, they're segregated. You know, their boxing dolls are separate in different groups. Obviously you guys have talked about this before. The bucks will form bachelor groups. In the summer, they break up and those bucks are loners for the rest of the fall, you know, searching out doors. And the time spent with doll when he's breeding her is going to be a day or a couple of days. So he'll spend a couple of days chasing around, uh, looking for locating a doll that's receptive, will spend a day or two with her and keep looking. The frenzy of when a lot of that is happening. You know, when you're sitting in your standing there there's three or four bucks chasing one dough um or multiple box just cruising by. That would not be considered the peak of the rut, the breeding phase, because these are dear outlooking. That's probably just prior to all of that, so you know, and one of the cool things is observations of hunters can be area from property to property, from county to county, and definitely from state to state. So um, when you get down to it, well hunters want to know about the run is how can they kill something? Right? When should I be out there. Yes, for the most part, it's consistent year to year. You can pick the first or second and in some cases third week in November and take time off and go out there and hunt, and you're gonna see some activity. It's a bomber when you're out there and you're not seeing much and that is impacted by other things. There are other influences, um, that can change that. Again, this goes back to the research where you know, what I can tell you, uh, you know, in terms of weather and things, what the research says. You know, my gut tells me some of that stuff is not you know, there's something that we haven't found out yet. Um. And I'll just tell you for the most part, there hasn't been any research that says weather and I'm talking about everything from their metric pressure, to rain events, to temperature drops to all this stuff has We're talking about collar deer, hundreds of collar deer in some races in some of these studies and have not seen a correlation to a weather change. Almost every variable you can think of with weather and see any difference in deer activity. Again, we don't know. We don't have cameras on these deer. We don't know if they're actually breeding, but we can actually monitor activity, how much they're moving in a day UM or twenty four hour period or how long those distances are. And there hasn't been any My gut tells me there's something weather related out there. UM. But and I still want to plan when I'm hunting based on some of that. UM. But the neat thing is I can go out there and sit out there and see a friends the activity I get. Have a buddy two counties over that I'm texting that's seeing completely something different, and that's property specific. It's even the deer herds specific to that property. Based on those deer. I mean, maybe the dose on the property I'm on are all synchronized and they're all coming into estres around the same time or just before, or maybe there's those handful of really breeding events that are happening that are making all bucks go crazy. I mean, it's so site specific and one of the cool things that we've done at q d M. A UM is partnered with some other organizations uh Sitka, Cabella's and others with powder Hook and developed an app to track some of that stuff to create a heat map UM of daytime activity where you can just log in your observations of what you're seeing or the deer you're killing, um, and they take all that into account and create that It's a really really neat thing. So when it comes down to the rut, I mean, why do people want to talk about it. I want to talk about it because they want to figure out how they can best be successful to go out there and shoot a deer, specifically a buck. One of the best things that I can offer to you is take this science and use it to the best of your ability. I mean, but at the same time, a lot of it has to be site specific. And some of the stuff that you guys talk about on your show is you as a hunter, you as a leasy or a landowner, just keeping tabs on that dear heart, either through trail cameras or individual box and tracking them throughout the year and getting a sense of when stuff is happening and trying to be ready for when it happens within the window of when the bigger science says, you know what, there's about a two two and a half week window when I should be out there, and then just try to target when you need to be out Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and I think it's, you know, right in line with with what you said, is is looking at this the high level scientific data, but then to your point, understanding the site specific uniqueness of your property in the situation at hand. And that brings me to something that I that I've am equally fascinated by that I know you've looked into, which is actual buck behavior during the rut. I know there's been a number of GPS studies that have looked into this. Two things specifically that I have found interesting about behavior that these studies have shown are the phenomena of how they relate to focal points and then also this other phenomena of taking these excursion. Could you share with us a little bit about what these studies have found about buck behavior during the rut related to those two things, Yeah, no problem. Let me talk about the focal points first. Um. Aaron Foley, he was a research at Texas A and M and and a lot of his co authors looked at this. There was a multiple year study looking at a bunch of different things related to to buck and their use of space. And again it was out of Texas and for people that aren't qt m A members. This was actually a feature article in Quality White Till that's our publication that comes out every other month. UM. I think it was the last issue. UM. Really really interesting stuff in terms of how bucks use UM again, their home range or their co core areas over during the rut and how that changes. And for the most part, we've always and the research does point to bucks being individuals. You know, Some are up on their feet a lot, and they move a lot, you know, day or night. Some don't move that very much, have large home ranges, some have very small home ranges, and there's combinations of all four of those UM, and it really varies based on the individual book UM. When it comes to focal points. What Mark is asking about is this was one of the first studies that actually showed spatial memory, meaning a buck remembering, if you will, where dough groups are and returning to those places on a on a fairly consistent basis. UM. What the researchers found there was about every twenty to twenty eight hours UM. They had both Bucks and does collared UH, and they were able to document UH multiple box visiting what the researchers called focal areas. There would be some somewhere between one to three focal areas within that box home range. So if a buck was traveling, you know, thousand acres, that's what their home ranges. I'm just that's a um, just a ra number I'm coming up with. They might have a core area throughout most of the year of five to ten percent of that and that's basically what the research shows. UM. You know, between five to ten percent of a bucks home range will be its core are and it might not be one spot, it might be one or two. UM. During the rut, their home range expands, sometimes excessively three or four times a size, and they are using more of that space. UM. So the home range I defined it earlier as the space a buck is of the time the core area. As many hunters columns like their bedroom, they're there fifty percent of the time. Half the time you'll find the buck there. During the rut, bucks, he's less of their core area less often. They're not in that fifty space that as much, and they're they're using way more of that of their home range. They're out there a lot more than they used to, so they're shifting where they are in their home range. The really interesting thing though, is these researchers found that these bucks are not doing it randomly. They are picking these focal areas. They're you know, handful of them, usually three or four of them within the buck, within that buck's home range, where he's concentrating on it, spending some time there, leaving it, going to another one, leaving it, going to another one, leaving and going to another one, and returning to the original one. Every hours, that buck is returning to one of those spots. And with multiple bucks Collard um, they were able to see this on the landscape where there was and they also had dose Collard that there were spatial memory where bucks were returning to these spots saying you know there's a doe group there and you'd have one or two or three bucks returning to that spot at different periods to find them. So that gives a lot of confirmation to you know, the whole adage. You know, if you hunt where the does are, um, you'll see box or along those lines. Um. Yeah, that is true. I mean during the rut, bucks are trying to find these doughs, are checking the receptiveness possibly and returning And that research is ongoing, but that that is something that's really interesting. The other thing that Mark asked about was UM about excursions, and that's something else I've I've been able to look in depth at. And one of the things that we found with excursions is that they happen year round. By far, they're more rut related fall time excursions and there are spring but there has been documented cases from Pennsylvania all the way down to Louisiana and everywhere in between, from agriculture environments like Iowa and Maryland to heavily forested environments. UM. But bucks are making these excursions, and what they are is within that that home range where buck is ninety nine five percent a time, they might spend take sometimes one, sometimes multiple events where they leave that space. They're gone for a very short period of time, usually a day to thirty six hours, and they returned quickly. UM. There's by far more rut related excursions that are happening, almost probably a three to one UM and it's generally about half of bucks make them UM and the ones that do go the majority do it multiple times. It's almost going back to that individuality where you know, if a buck's got the propensity to do this, he might do that, so it lends a lot of credibility to the hunter. That's he's a buck show up on his trail camera, or you're sitting there and his deer comes cruising through that you've never seen before. Um, and you know you miss your chance at it and you never see that dear again. That could be a buck that was on an excursion or l wise, if you've been following a deer and you have great documentation of that buck even out of the summer getting into pre rod or even getting into you know, in the next couple of weeks, you're seeing this deer on camera and then all of a sudden, poof that deer is gone. Um, he may have actually made one of those excursions. And the ones that this isn't confirmed, the ones that are revelated are assumed obviously uh to be in search of dolls. There might not be enough receptive dose in his home range. She's checked out all his focal areas and he's going elsewhere, or you know, very likely the case she's on a doll that's not quite receptive and she takes them outside of his home range. Um. There's actually been one documented case of a booty calling deer where uh there was a dough that was uh collard and she left her home range and he left his where they were both ninety nine, and they overlapped a little bit and they rendezvous and uh they were together for a day or so, and that was in Tennessee and they went back to the respective home ranges or a college bar. Yeah, so there's all this interesting stuff going out there. Um, and that's probably also you know, when one of those guys that uh you you know, you see a social media post or somebody shoots a buck that looks a lot like the buck you've been following, and it's a couple of miles away. I mean, it could very well be the same, dear, and don't travel anywhere between one to five miles. That's the average distance in these excursions. So the question, I'm sorry in regards to the annual patterning then, um, me and Mark have been talking a lot about annual pattering patterning um the past couple of weeks and trying to, you know, maybe hunt where we got a trail camera picture of a deer of the previous year. Are these excursions or focal points like annual like on the second week of October, you can expect the deer to do the same thing. No, there's not a lot of there's not a lot of research to say that they are continuous in the same place or direction. Um. Some of the research does show, UM some weird stuff where they might have a lot of the collar deer going in the same way, and I think some of that has to do with the terrain in the landscape in those cases. UM. I don't know of anything dan that has said that, you know, you can count that on that deer leaving and then coming back. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that was the case. But again going down to the individuality of a deer, um, you know, you might have some that are are likely to do that and other ones that are way more random. They just pick up and leave because their brain told them to. UM. The reason I wouldn't be surprised if that happened was there's a lot of there's a lot of habitual behavior with deer. That's how they survive. Obviously, they know how to how to do something. UM. And even coming down to like when they dropped their antlers. You know you've seen before and some of the research you know bucks can drop antlers within a day or two of when they did them the last year. So it wouldn't shock me if somebody had had a collar box and they showed that these deer were doing the same thing year and you're you're out around the same time. I just don't remember or recall any of the research showing that, and that's probably because the bucks would have to be collared for multiple years, and a lot of these collars don't have the longevity of that. I mean, they're very expensive, but they usually only last a year. Sometimes they only last a couple of months, believe or not. But um, so that hasn't been documented it to my knowledge. But I'm I'm a huge fan of what you're asking. Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of in a in a little bit different stage. I was talking to a friend the other day about the stages of hunting. You know, you're supposed to go through the shooter stage, and then the limiting out stage, and then the trophy stage, and then it goes on to um I think the fourth one is the type of tactic you use, and then finally a sportsman stage where you're just joining the experience. I'm somewhere in the middle of that, I don't. I think there's something missing for the young father who's got a a toddler and a preschooler and flies around the country a lot, And I don't know what I'm doing this year, but I'm a big fan of of patterning based on everything from finding sheds to trail camera images in the same part of the property year and year out um and learning a deer and actually going deeper than that, finding a buck early in his life that's patternable that has daylight behaviors, that seems to be up and out at daytime, a lot that's got above average halar growth, and trying to protect that buck and see him through an older age that that that's kind of the the niche that I like is just finding a deer that's one or two or even three that's just showing extreme potential, that is up and at him a lot of daytime, and just trying to keep him safe to the point where you might get a shot. That's pretty fascinating when you can learn a single deer like that over the course of several years, and then you know if if you're fortunate enough to put all the pieces together by the time he is fully mature, and then actually, you know, harvest that deer. That that's about as cool as it gets. So here here's kind of related to this point. All the ideas here about when you're trying to pattern a deer and understand the deer. And I have two takeaways from the study that you just mentioned that tracked mature buck movement during the rut, and the two big takeaways obviously mentioned that, yes, deer are taking these excursions, which I think is something that popular common knowledge when it comes to dear behavior during the rut has always been, you know, during the rut, bucks are going everywhere, they're going different places that they're changing the you know, changing the usual routine, and you can't pattern a buck. So so part of this I'm seeing in the data here shows it, Yes, there is some of that excursion behavior. But you know, from what you said and from the stuff I've read, it sounds like that's a little bit less than maybe some have made it out to be. I think a lot of people think it's happened every single day all the time. These bucks are NonStop moving all over to new places, But it sounds like they're actually the majority of time yes, they might take a couple of these excursions, but the majority of the time they're focusing still in their home range on a couple consistent places. So my big takeaway from this, and you tell me, man if this is correct for me to take this, But my big takeaway is that during the rut, while there is going to be some randomness, there actually is still some type of consistency that we can dial in on and potentially pattern to a degree to take advantage of during the rut and while you're hunting. Is that accurate? Absolutely, because you're talking about the law of averages there. And although I'm telling you about every other buck will go on an excursion and when they leave, um they're gone for a short period of time. I mean it's a day or two, you're talking about multiple weeks. That the rut can last two weeks even um in terms of all the craziness of of all that randomness, Um, it is small percentages of when those things are occurring. It helps explain some of the head scratchers. But for the most part, if you can be in tune with your property and you can locate where deer are they like to be during that frenzy um because certainly, and you can build your property that way too. You can manage it so that your property has specific locations where you know dear will hold up um where they like to be. You know, it's got better cover in it, or things like that. That adds a lot of predictability to it. I mean, being within bow range or gun range and actually making a shot count. That comes down to skill and practice and being proficient and being able to perform under pressure. But you can absolutely change the trajectory your success by practicing QDM and and managing the property and letting dear go and watching all those things unfold and practicing a little patients. I mean, there's tens of thousands of qt m A members and other QUTUM practitioners across the country that have extremely high success rates above the average hunter. And all, you know, in all due respects, were all for the millions of hunters out there, But guys that are like you too, and the listeners that are on this, that are listening to this, you can change your fate by that predictability. So I I absolutely agree with that. So then here's the next question, then, Because if we're if we're learning, trying to learn these bucks, and if we know that, hey, there is some ability to still learn and to some degree pattern and hunt these bucks during the rut, even as we understand the doughes do control the rut though, right, because everything a buck is doing during the rut during these next couple of weeks is revolved around trying to find that dough that's ready to breed. So when it comes to hunting the rut, then I think a big portion of, you know, what we're trying to do here is understanding where those doughes are what they're doing, because that's where the buck wants to be. So is there anything out there that you've learned or that you know? I guess what is a dough doing during the rut? Because we talked a lot about what bucks are doing, But I guess the first thing we need understands what are the dose doing? So how does doughe behavior changed during the rut? That's a great question. So a lot of it's similar, but there's some key differences. Obviously, It's just like you know, Mener from Mars and all that. Uh, those do not have obviously influence of the immensity of what bucks do during the rout. There actually is some evidence, um, like that booty call example I gave you a few minutes ago, um, and some other research that actually show uh dose going out and seeking box. I mean that has been documented. It's again it's a proportion and it's a small proportion of the research of that theme. But it's not like acent of time the buck is the purstorer. I mean, there is some of that happening, but for the most part, what those are doing is going through that same diet change, the physiological change. The bucks are that we talked to the beginning of the show. They're getting ready for winter. Um, They're they're they're bulking up. They need to be ready to survive. They need to make sure that their offspring are in the best condition because they're they're good mothers and they're trying to get to that point. Um. They're also at the beginning, like right now, really, I mean there's still the majority of dose are not um quite ready to breed. So that's not going on in there. You know what they're focusing on. They're still trying to bulk up and eat and stay safe and probably the number one thing that you can do in terms of tracking dose is managing your hunting pressure, because they will key in on hunting pressure at a much finer level than bucks will because bucks are rut crazy testosterone filled and they're not paying attention to what they're doing. Every hunter knows that, and that's why guys like to hunt, and guys like to hunt the rut because it's a time when you have the best chance at a buck, because he's gonna make mistake. Um, he'll be out in daylight, he's gonna come by you and not be looking up. All of those things are happening. Those aren't under the same influence of testosterone. I mean, clearly, it's a pretty obvious thing. So the thing you need to really be cautious of is hunting pressure. UM, where you don't uh, too heavily hunt the property to really find balance, but where you don't too heavily hunt the property, where you're alerting dose to hunting pressure, elevating you know, being on the property, all of those things that might make a dough change her behavior. But at the same time be able to manage all the things that we talk about in QDM UM taking the right number of dose and balancing the deer heard in the sex ratio and all those things, And there's some research out there behind it. I mean, for the most part, I may I can give you some real basic numbers, but a lot of the concurrent research out there that and they agree with each other. Things out Oklahoma and UM, South Carolina and some other places show that it really only takes a few days of heavy pressure to to alert a deer heard and they start changing the way they behave And this includes dozen bucks, but they'll they'll change when they're out during day versus night, how they get across the property. They still might do that bead to feed movement, but instead of going in a direct line, their path becomes much more complex. Um, they're the observations of those animals go down. All of this stuff happened after about really three or plus days of pressure. So that's where kind of strategy changes how you do that. So I guess what I would recommend to somebody that wants to focus on that side of it is, UM, first figure out how many does you need to take, because that's the lowest hole in the bucket. If you have too many deer on the property, UM and not enough food or some combination of those two new things depending on Again, if you're Dan and you live in Iowa, Um, you know, if you have abundant food, you can help hold a lot more dear, But if you're if you're limited by food taking, those is the thing you need to worry about beyond tracking a big deer, because that box is only going to be as big as he possibly can be if he's fed as well as he possibly can be. It's all antlers take a big game from nutrition, you know. So I apologize for interrupting her mat but I want to make sure I asked you this question because this is something that's been hypothesizing about related to something you just said there, um, And I'm really curious about your opinion on this. But before we get to that question of mine, we need to pause briefly for a word from our sponsors of this podcast episode, Ozonics. And you've heard me and Dan talk a lot about this product over the past couple of years, and that's because we've found it to really help us way before Ozonics ever started working with us officially. We try it out and found it to make a big difference. And we're not the only ones. So today we're going to be hearing from Dean Partridge post of Canadian White Tailed Television about how Zonis has changed how he hunts. Here's Dean for sure, and that's sometimes, I think an aspect of the affectionments of vonics that sometimes overlooked. And I think there's two sides of that, and one is within a single deer season prout. We spend most of our time on a specific buck. And when you're hunting one buck, that can happen on day one or it can happen on day forty. And every day that you hunt, do you add pressure to that area, whether whether you whether you like it or not, whether you realize you do it or not. And a lot of times that stand will start to go cold as you go on. So if you're hunting that buck on the edge of a field and you're sitting that stand, every time your win is right that there's no way to win a d percent of the time, there's always a dough, a young buck, another deer that goes down when a hundred yards a hundred and fifty yards away that you never see, and they'll know, and you'll notice if the season goes on, your deer encounters will go down they'll get later. While you're hoping for an opportunity at that target buck, what happens is that target buck that you're after, he's a lot better at understanding his environment than we are. Otherwise it would be so hard to hunt. So even if that target buck hasn't caught you or hasn't become aware of your presence, if other deer in that area have, he's going to realize that. So that one time that you're that you're there, that he is going to step out in that field, he's going to realize that the deer acting differently and everything is different. And what we've found is when we use thosonics of every single sit that that downward trend of a stands starting to go cold or starting to wear that spot out, it eliminates it because any non target deer that are down, when any issues you have with that, they're removed. So when we go from you know, having deer in a plot on day one, we used to have by day twelve or day fifteen, we'd have you know, twelve deer because some of them had caught you and called you know, sort of a residual damage. We eliminate that. Now where we're able to hunt those stands longer throughout the season and have a more normalized effect in that area where the deer aren't quite so sensitive to the other deer that have caught you. They are coming later now that are more where to your presence. So there you go, And if you are interested in learning more about osonics yourself, you can visit osonics hunting dot com. And now let's get back to that interesting question I had for Matt so. On my main Michigan property, I used to see a lot of mature bucks. Um but the dope population in and around this property has just gotten out of control, and I've tried to do a better job of managing what I can on my end um but I don't think my neighbors are killing does and I haven't killed enough um so. So my issue here is that I've got an astronomically high dope population, and over the most more recent years, the number of mature bucks I've been seeing have been less and less and less, despite the fact that I'm passing on lots and lots of young bucks, and from what I understand, most of my neighbors are too. The guys I've been able to talk to you. So my hypothesis has been I don't know if food is necessarily the limiting factor, because I've got lots of food, But could there be the potential simply of the fact that there's so many does that's overcrowding the mature bucks. Because I've heard from a lot of people that mature bucks tend to when they're trying to find a betting area in their core range and stuff, they prefer a little bit of isolation. They prefer to have a little space. And if there's so many Doe family groups spread out in every single different pocket of cover in a you know, two or three area, could that potentially be reducing how many mature bucks are are spending time on my property. That's a good question. Now, dere are territorial in the sense of you know what territorial the word means. But um, and certainly the are segregated. You know, I mentioned it earlier. They're not like elk Um throughout most of the year. Um, your bachelor groups and your Dope family groups are gonna be separate from each other. They're gonna be different using different space. Um. It's particularly when it comes to fawning season that's probably the one time that year that territoriality might be the closest to the truth and dear. But when it comes down to the run, you know, in the fall, things are a lot more random and uses is scattered. But it can lay the groundwork for where deer set up their home ranges, you know, at the very beginning. So if you have a property that has above high you know, above what the lamp can support, the carring capacity is painted, and you don't you have too many deer and you have a lot of dose, um, it could potentially impact what box are there during the majority of the year. Now, on the flip side, you might be able to pull in a random buck or two later in the year through an excursion because you have so many does. But then again you're you're playing with the law of averages there again, right, So you're you're hoping that a buck that you're not seeing throughout three hundred sixty days a year shows up for a random event as opposed to the bucks that are calling the place home. We're king with them and managing around them because and and giving them that space. Um, So that certainly can be an impact. Yes, I mean if that helps to answer that question. So one of the things that I always recommend is the first thing you need to look at is you know where's your dear heart at. Here's an example. So the property I hunt on, I hunted on a QUM cooperative. It's a several farms that are next to each other. UM they're all contiguous, so there's no open space between it. But it's not a giant, giant chunk land, but it's it's good. UM. We really focused on reducing deer density. This is our sixth season going in UM and it took us about three or four seasons to get there, and the dear visibility has gone down. I mean, I'll tell you it was kind of tracking it through through hunter observations. UM, we're seeing whereas the beginning about two deer an hour, under a deer an hour now it's I think point eight last season. So as a hunter, it feels very different. I go out there, I don't see as many deer as I used to. But that's the point. I mean that we needed to reduce it. UM. The number of bucks I'm seeing out of that that, you know, the observations, it's higher than it used to be. We're seeing a lot more does and we're bucks. Um, are there more older bucks? UM? Last year I would absolutely said, yeah, this is a strange year, and there's some good bucks on there, but nothing like there was last year. And I'm not sure why the case, but that's going to come and go. So my I feel very confident in the decision of managing the dose to begin with. UM, and the images we get on trail cameras, and certainly the bucks we're seeing and killing the last two or three years is way way better than the first two or three years. UM. And you're not going to have that every year, So you might be in a in a point mark where that could be impacting you. You could just have a year um where you know, a bigger buck or two uh, disappeared from the landscape. Um. You know, and the deer that are they're just not on the age yet. UM. You know, bucks aren't necessarily bullies. They're not going to push buck other bucks out and make another older big buck not show up. That's not necessarily true. UM. But you've got to kind of handle what's there. So the bucks that are living on the property, identify their age, figure out which one's got the potential to be big, I guess, and UH see him through. So this brings me to kind of a related question that ties into this UM. You know, we've talked about some of these impacts that might occur if I were to know better manage some aspects of this property, which is my goal. And there's there's one thing on my mind that I that I think is an impact. But I want to hear from you first man, when you actually start implementing quality deer management practices, so you know, managing and harvesting deer to have the appropriate level of does the appropriate level of bucks, appropriate age structure, all these things. Not not the management that some people talk about on TV just trying to shoot giant racked bucks, but I mean real quality dear management, trying to you know, be smart about your harvest to achieve that proper balance and your heard when you have a heard like that, How is the rut different in a managed herd like that? And how so it is different once the and this is one of the things we tell any introductor remembered. One of the things that we explain about q DM is once you balance that ratio of bucks to dose, UM a lot of the signpost. Behavior that you see on a property will increase by a lot, meaning rubs and scrapes and that type of stuff and stuff you get excited to see when you go in the woods, because if you think about it, they're competing for a limited resource when you're when you're balancing your doughs, if you have too many doughs, that's a again talking like we spoke earlier in the show, Um, they're in abundance, right, so bucks don't need need to necessarily compete for it. And through competition like leaving sign rubbed and scrapes or even fighting um or in those that respect, responding to aggressive tactics like using decoys and rattling and grunting and getting you know, really aggressive with how you're trying to get deer in front of you. All of that changes when you balance what's out there because instead of having a surplus of female deer on the property, um, there's more balance to it, meaning the bucks have to compete for it and you're hunting success and really the fun and hunting improves. So that does change on a property, especially at a landscape level, if you're working with neighbors and everybody's contributing. So in your situation, Mark, if you have neighbors that are at least in uh contact with you, even if it's not a formal co op um, if you guys are uh talking and talking about letting deer go and um taking the right number, dear, you will definitely improve your hunting by by making some of those decisions. Now there's textbook and then there's the reality of working with people and it can be hard. And that's where you talk about expectations of not letting yourself down. If you expect to change things and to turn into a TV show, I mean that that can happen. I mean, just as an example, hunter on the property that I hunt on killed the fifth biggest buck in our county last year on the co op. That happened because of the co op um. You know, there's no doubt in my mind that's what happened. But for the most part, that's not every book out there. I mean, we have very average antler scores and ages. I mean, we have deer that are three and four years old, that are you know, one twenties, one thirties. It's not like every bucks a giant. So that's where you kind of set your expectations and even set your goals if you're happy going for maturity, which makes me very happy, you know, looking for a deer that's mature depending on what's on his head. That changes all the same thing with with does so um Practicing QTM will make you a better hunter, It makes you hunting more fun, and it makes you more intense. All of that is absolutely true. Something you talked about there, um is another thing I'm curious about hearing from you. And you mentioned the fact that sign posting might increase UM in a property that's properly managed, kind of outside of just the cutium and piece, but just in general, can you dive into the science of sign posting? So rubs and scrapes are something that you know, we hunters associate with the rut, but can you go into both of those and you know why our bucks making those? What are they doing with them? And when are they doing them? I guess is what I'm first curious about from you. Okay, yeah, there's actually very predictable times when both of those behaviors peak in the woods. Um scraping, let's talk about that. One first bucks will start making scrapes. Really after velvet peel, they'll start doing a little bit, but by far it ramps up going through UM early fall. You know, it's just called the the second week in November. UM, you'll see scraping activity peak about a week and a half to fourteen days prior to that. That's when it peaks, and it will maintain that peak up until when breeding starts occurring. So right now late October UM is the time when you see scrap more scrapes than any other time of the year. UM. It will continue for a couple of weeks and actually in the probably second week in November, when most breeding is occurring, it starts to drop off. There's usually a little bit of peak after that when you see a second rod occurring or things like that, but there should be the most scrapes on your properties right now. UM. Rubbing actually increases and peaks with the peak of breeding, so that usually will peak a little bit later in the fall. About when bucks are indoors are actually starting to breed? And why what's the science say about why they're doing those two things? All the science behind it is what they're doing is they're leaving sign for other deer I mean, deer are very social animals. Um. They beat to each others through vocalizations. That's why we buy grunt calls and dobeleats and cans and all those things, because we know that, you know, deer are very vocal with each other. UM. They have a lot of scent production. They will leave sent through seven different glands on their body with box at seven does six. Um, they leave scent on scrapes. They leave by urinating and or end or rub urinating in that spot. They will leave sent on a rub by once they make the rub their forehead bland that's that dark spot between the antlers. All that hair gets really dark because there's a very oily uh substance basically like um. You know, if you don't shower for a couple of days, your hair gets really greasy. Every single hair follicle on our body has a spacious plant produces a little bit of oil to it. Uh. Dear mammals, they have the same thing. But these areas of high glandular activity, like the forehead um or the tarsal bland um. You know, these areas will actually produce an abundance of those oils, and they're depositing scent through that. So what they're doing is they're basically leaving their calling card. So any deer, fawn, dell buck can go to those places, those signpost locations and smell it and pick up the pheromones of other individuals. And it's basically like going to the deli and leaving your business card to you know, win a free sandwich or a free HOGI they're leaving their their business card. They're saying I was here. UM. Again, it kind of blends into that territoriality of deer territorial they're not, They're just they're just leaving their sign out there. And it also alerts and also queues a little bit to the rut, you know, when those are priming and getting ready to come into astress. There's some suggestions out there UM through well known researchers. I haven't seen research that says it it's unfounded, but there's a lot of good research out there that talks about the number of chemical receptors and pheromones in box um and immature box versus mature bucks that that that's irresputable that UM mature bucks do leave different sense, different types of sense, different types of compounds and young bucks, do you know. So the theory there, and that's the theory, is that they're leaving their sign or their scent for others to smell as a marking of we're here or I'm ready and uh. There's also some suggested evidence that those can be que quicker into breeding or being ready to breed with some of that out there with more mature box and those those right compounds. So um, it's very interconnected. There's a lot we don't know about deer um, but there's a lot of very interesting things going on, and they certainly are are tied together to each other through communication like that. So is there any takeaway for hunters in regards to signposts, because there's lots of different ideas and theories and it's it's changed over the years about hunting over or near rubs or scrapes, But is there any definitive takeaway that we that we have now regards to if it's worth hunting over those two different types of sign well, scrapes. The research shows and I didn't actually say this a minute, you know, the scrapes have been shown the majority of them do happen at night. Um, and rubs I don't actually remember what the research says when thows occur, but I do know that that will increase, you know, the more you have of well balanced deer heard. Um. But just like any hunter that that's listening, you know, I go into a wood lot and I see a bunch of rubs, scripts I get excited. It looks like there's a buck using that property. Um, that's part of the property. Now you can set up over that scrape and hope that you see that deer, but no, that he's probably checking those at night. It's about of the research says that scrapes are made and checked at night. You could be a fift center. I have great daytime pictures of bucks using scrapes, you know, and I could have been sitting there in that standard in that time. Again, if you want to play the law of averages and listen to the research, you can say, well, okay, there's a scrape line going through this part of the property, and there's really no true scrape line. A lot of the research has shown and disputed. You might find us several scrapes on a ridge. Um, you could have a completely different set of box using. It's not made by one deer walking in a line. This is just a concentration of activity where box are leaving their sign and it's probably because there's dose near there, so they're leaving their sign for dose. Um. You know, so I can go in there with my climber and say, well, there's a bunch of scrapes right here. I'm gonna set up right here and have the expectation of seeing a buck. I know as a researcher, you know in a dear biologist that you know what, these are probably being made at night. Um eight, these are being made at night, and there's probably a chance I'm not going to see the book, but I might still set up there saying, you know what, it could be one of those fifteen percent times that a buck coming through. And I've gotten I've seen a lot of different, you know, responses on our website and social media posts and other things when this research gets put out there in articles or posts or things like that. Is somebody put a picture of a buck making a scrape. Well, of course, yes, that doesn't. I mean, you can't say absolutely anything. And that's one of the things I mentioned about science is what peer reviewed research gives us is a is a moment in time. Um, the researchers collared box or they did this or did that on a property in you know, Iowa, Maryland to Texas to New York, and you can say, well, that's the case in New York. That the true test of science is repeatability, being able to try it again. And some of his research has been repeated in different parts of the country and they've done the same test and they've shown the same results. The that's the real true part of science is learning what the majority of the things happen. But as a hunter you need to take that and synthesize and say, how do I apply that to my situation? Shoot, Mark and Dan, I'm still going to go out and set up a stand and be near scrapes because that means there's bucks in the area. I'm not going to think as a you know, as a hunter, that's what I'm going to do. I know my expectations might be, uh that bock might not be here during daylight, um, but I also know that there's a lot of activity in that area, so it might be a shot. So you have to just kind of balance all that. Yeah, so true, it's the it's six one half doesn't the other but finding, you know, taking what you can learn from that, and then you say, okay, well exactly like what you said. The way I think about it is, okay, I understand that this might be happening during dark. But at the same time, if you look at that point where there's a scrape, where I could say, okay, I know that there's a twenty chance he's touching that he's coming to this place potentially, or I could go to some other random place a hundred yards away where there's no scrapes at all, and you know, okay, do I have a chance of about coming here. Maybe it's even less there because there's you know, no particular reasons. So it's one more little piece of the puzzle you can put potentially in your favor if you apply it um. But maybe maybe it's not something to rest your entire strategy on. So, uh, Dan, are you? Are you okay? Over there? You live in your thoughts, I'm sponging it up. I want to know one thing based off Yeah, just well, I mean there's literally another episode worth of questions that we could ask you and go detail to, you know, to all get out. But you know, a lot of people use, I guess, hunting information that's not scientific to learn how to hunt. Um, Like, oh man, when when the rooster crows, you better be in the timber. Or you know, when the cows are standing with their wind they're back to the east, you better be in the timber. You know, those kind of things or even myths that are um, even things that are on like the outdoor channel or on the you know, these celebrities are telling you how to do these things. Are there any myths that science has disproven? That's basically just like, hey, that's that's you're you're wrong. That's a great question. There's probably a pile of them, uh, you know, one of the things. And again getting back to the you know what peer reviewed research says, um, the biggest is probably the moon phase. I mean that that is the one smack dab in the you know, elephant in the room when it comes to the rot um. As far as I know, you know, I've looked at a lot of different projects, um where they've looked at moon phase in comparison to buck activity. Again, you don't necessarily know when deer are breeding when they have a collar on, but you can just see when they're on their feet, and that hasn't shown any evidence of, you know, being correlated when moon phase changes. Um that it's going to impact the deer's behavior. Is it has to do with everything else. I do think the one thing that along those lines is the whether I mentioned earlier. You know, something tells me that whether it must impact when deer or movement, But that also has been shown to not be correlated. Which that's a head scratcher for me. So you know, I wouldn't be surprised if either of those cases, some some researchers finds evidence that you know, moon phase in in a certain situation. I'm talking about five six different objects that have looked at that and in some cases, you know, half a million data points off of hundreds of bucks that are colored haven't found it. You've got to feel like, okay, well, you know there's got to be some truth to that. It wouldn't be some surprise if somebody found one project that said yeah, it does on the flip side. Uh So somebody could do the same with weather, and me, as a hunter wants to say I knew it, but I also know there's half a dozen projects out there that have tied all those data points to weather events, you know, barometric pressure and cold fronts and rain and all those things, and haven't found anything. So, you know, I gotta be a hunter in some cases, and I gotta be a researcher and others. So as someone like myself who likes to follow the science, I'm gonna say something. I'm gonna say this out loud just so people hear it. Based Yeah, based on the research that has been done, moon the moon phase does not influence deer movement has been shown not to influence dear movement. Is that an accurate statement? Okay, very accurate? Based on research, weather patterns do have been shown to not change dear movement or like influence deer movement. That's another accurate statement. Correct. That is also another accurate statement. So everything that we have as hunters have you know, thought over the years, science is showing that, Yeah, guess what, it's really not so so then that just brings up these questions again, what is influencing dear movement? Here here's something I'd like to add on to that, dan Um, because I like mash my brain together trying to figure this out too, Because just like what you said, Matt, you said the research this that are these certain research scenarios have said this, But as a hunter, so many of us have anecdotally seen evidence that maybe there's something different. I wonder, as I try to think through this, could we be comparing apples to oranges here, and that the study is looking at a certain criteria is saying, you know, you know, dear movement or dear activity as they are measuring it might be very different from quote unquote dear movement or dear activity that we hunters are looking for. So hypothetically, could this be a scenario where the researcher is studying actual you know, um number of feet traveled throughout a twenty four hour period something like that, you know, the actual movement of this deer in twenty four hours, and they're saying, regardless of temperature or moon phase, the amount of actual distance traveled is not any different. While from a hunter standpoint, I might be curious in how much movement in the open is happening during daylight, that kind of thing, you know, that's the activity that I I'm interested in. So could a cold front increase the amount of movement out of their bedding area during daylight is that, you know, maybe that's what I'm interested in from a hunter standpoint, and maybe the cold front does trigger increased activity there, but it doesn't necessarily change the absolute distance of total travel in twenty four hours. That's my hypothesis. There might be some difference in the actual measurement criteria met Is there any possible Does that make any sense at all? It does, And not every one of those projects has looked in that, but some of them have. They've looked at vulnerability to harvest from daylight to night versus. And also things like distance from tree stands, having like tree stands GPS on some of these properties and looking at how vulnerable they were within a hundred or a hundred yards distance if it was gun season or you know, thirty yard distance from those stands uh during bow And again none of that stuff has shown any correlation. Stuff. Yeah, a lot of stuff with the moon phase UH that was initially done looked at conceptions and that was all based on fetal measurements. They looked at when the bulk of the deer those were being bred, and correlated that to moon. No, no correlation. But a lot of this GPS research is also looking at breeding dates, but they're also looking at UM movements over twenty four period and some of them to degree that Mark is saying, you know, daytime versus night and and other things. So and again you know I said this before. Uh, it comes down to the property. I mean it really does. I mean you can talk about this big umbrella of what research is saying if you want to believe, I mean I will. I'm glad Dan said that. That is the take on message. There's no research to sup for any of that those theories. It doesn't it doesn't come out. However, you know, when it comes down to it, don't don't throw that away. You don't throw it in the trash paper basket when you get off listen to this and say that guy doesn't know what he's talking about or what I know because I saw this. That's not good enough because you're not talking about hundreds of deers with collars or you know, thousands or ten thousands of data points that are collared. That's very different. But I would still suggest to the hunter that wants to micro manage the property and understand this research might say all this, It might show that these things aren't correlated. UM but I can tell you you might be the day that you go out there and say, you know what the moon phase is telling me this, or there's a cold front. And again I'm telling you, as a hunter, I feel like weather must do more than what the researchers said. But it hasn't shown up. Um, it just has to be something related to it. But again, I'm a deer hunter too. Um. You could be in a stand and have a buck make a decision that changes his fate and you kill him. And you might hie that to one of those multiple things we're talking about. Um, but that's still anecdotal. But who cares? You still kill that dear he changed his behavior. Um. Or even at a property level, you might be on a property where things are in a frenzy. It has nothing to do with moon or weather. Is just because dear is so social. You know, something impacted them. You know a couple of does that went into estress early, or a buck just that felt so you know, Randy, he was getting dose up and moving them around, and that just triggered other deer to get up and move. I mean, I know you guys have seen this where you're in a in a stand and you see dear almost playing another dear react to it by playing or deer running away from fear from a kyle or a hunter or a buck chasing and other do dear do that? I mean, there's no way to measure that randomness. All you can do as a hunter is know when your best chance of shooting a buck is or your best chance of getting that deer within range, and spend as much time as you possibly can understand, because it's going to increase that percentage of Yes, you're going to get a shot. And I talked about earlier. Your proficiency and your ability to pick a good stand location is going to be a big part of that success. So your skill elbow as a hunter certainly will play a part of it. And luck, of course obviously comes into it too. But if I was a betting man, I would you know. We know that deer are most active at dawn and dusk or around those hours. Deer killed all the time in the middle of the day. Um, but you know, the bulk of the research says they're most active at dawn and dusk. Uh, they're gonna be most vulnerable during the rot. You know, the first couple of weeks in November, they're going to be most vulnerable. Uh. What I feel like is when a weather event is happening. Although the research doesn't say that I'm going to spend time in a stand when that stuff is happening, and just the fact that I'm spending time out there is going to increase my chances. You know, I'm my believe a magic rock will increase my chances, and I might keep it in my pocket and I might kill a bucket. I'm gonna say, you know what, that rock made that that happen. That doesn't necessary, It's not a cause and effect thing. But it doesn't matter because you know, through science, when it's telling you to spend the most time and just be out there, be present and be one, you know, mentally recording all of this stuff or just physically recording it like through that deer tracker app I mentioned earlier, to you know, allow for a better uh documentation of what's happening on the property and across the country. UM as well as just being there to be able to make some of those choices and react to them. If you see there's a lot of activity in one corner of the property, be adapted to move your stand that day, get down, move it, and uh you might be more successful because of it. Yeah. I Uh, this is one of those topics that is it's the bullet. It's just it's for me. It's one of those things where it's like, man, you talked to so many people and they and they say, Man, I'm telling you what you get in the stand when the moon is right here and then there's high pressure, or when there's a coal front coming through and you're gonna kill a buck. And then here's a research, actual factual research that shows that they're not a correct But then to Matt's point, to nothing is nothing is solid, nothing solid, And to his point about to your point mad about whether I mean, you talk to any serious deer hunter and they're gonna say, yes, we are seeing different dear behavior when the weather front comes through, but the research doesn't support it. So that I mean that that raises similar questions about some other things too. There might be you know, I'm not I find this very interesting. I take it into account, I put it in the tool chest, but I'm not necessarily throwing out some of these other theories too that are intriguing because you know, because I think here's one interesting thing that kind of my fine thought on this is that you take a guy, hypothetically, let's say one of these, one of these hunters that really strongly believes in the position of the moon, and that influencing, you know, a little bit of increased to your activity. And that's something that both you and me, Dan, We've been listening to a lot of guys talk about and it's really interesting and intriguing, and I've been trying to pay more attention to it too. But let's take a guy who is a die hard believer in it. When that person, let's hypothetical Calum Ben. When Ben goes into the woods with this very strong belief in this theory that when the moon's overhead or whatever, that he's gonna have a great chance. When you go into a tree stand with a piece of data like that or a belief like that, you believe in it so strongly. I believe your confidence level can be an influencer of the success you have, merely because when you are very confident in your stand site and in the conditions on that day and on why you're hunting there, when your confidence is that high, I believe that you operate at a different level of efficiency and effectiveness as a hunter. So when you're super confident, you're paying at engine everything around you, you notice every flicker movement, You're super quiet, you're super detailed, You're crossing all your teas and dotting all of your eyes. And I think maybe there's almost a self fulfilling prophecy happening here, where when you have such a strong belief in something happening, you just hunt better and because of that, you have more success. And I'm curious if maybe there's something to that, I'll comment, and I think there is. And I think not only that mark is that um. Not only they might be more confident and more efficient, um, but that type of hunter, that type of deer hunter that cares to look deeper and ask questions and try to improve their own ability, is the type of hunter that's going to improve anyway, do you know what I mean? Instead of just haphazardly going in the woods or hunting uh as a as a means of tradition, you know, going to the stand that grand Pappy talked me to opening day and that's the only day that he goes out or she goes out. The person that's saying, how can I be better? UM, some of that is going to be self fulfilling. It has to be because they're trying to up their bad I also think that there's probably as many, if not more people out there that are the hardcore you know, in this example, moon theory believers that are not killing a buck that day and the moon is the cause of it. You know, something happened that was wrong. And again, when it comes down to science, is really hard to argue with UM, And there's always going to be uh, you know, well that didn't work for me because that project was from Texas or you know, I live in New York and that research was from Florida. Yeah, of course, I mean there's no way you can test at all. But if you can repeat results, you get a better sense of what's going on. But we're never going to have all the answers UM. And that's the case. So yeah, I do think, yeah, there's some truth to that, UM. But I think it's also the type of hunter that you're talking about, your categorizing. Out of the eleven to thirteen million deer hunters out there, I guarantee you not all of them are paying attention to moon face. UM, the ones that are are trying to make their situation better. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, well I think anyway you look at it, this is some pretty interesting stuff. And UM, we are conversations not over. Yeah, I wish the conversation wasn't over, but we do have to end this conversation because we are over time and we've kept you way too long, Matt, so I apologize for that, but thank you for taking the time to to talk through all this stuff because it's awesome. UM. If our listeners want to learn more about qualitier management and the quality or management association where you work, where can they go to get some information about this kind of stuff. The easiest thing is to find us online cut m A dot com. UM. You can follow us through social media too. We have very active Facebook and Twitter platforms. Um A membership is fairly inexpensive. It's on par with the other conservation groups UM, and I would encourage and challenge all listeners. If you're a deer hunter, UM join one reason you'll you'll improve your deer hunting knowledge. You'll make yourself a better deer hunter and be able to make better decisions because of it. It will make your deer hunting more fun and beyond all that, you know, there's a lot of stuff happening in the dear world that UM could be better. And as a conservation organization, we fight for every single one of those eleven plus deer million hunter rights on a daily basis. That's what we go to work every day for. And I challenge you to support an organization that's fighting for your right for deer hunting. So um quum dot com and it's a it's a great organization. I hope you decided to join. Yeah, I'll second everything you said there. I'll add one other challenge. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about the Quality Dear Management Association and about Quality Deer Management because that term QDM has kind of been stolen by a lot of people and applied to things that don't really fall in line with what you guys actually are fundamentally focused on UM. So I would challenge anyone who's you know, been anti QUDUM or q d M A or just not cared about it because of different, you know, assumptions you have. Just go to the website and read the about page and the mission and the philosophy, and I think people have a hard time reading those things that you, as the organization, the people working there are actually fighting for. That is really hard to argue with. I mean, there's some incredible things you guys are working on and promoting UM, and in a lot of cases it's it's very different from what Joe Blow on TV is talking about. So I would say, learn a little bit about it from the source before you make a decision, and I think if you do, you'll likely make a decision similar to what I have, and that is to become a member and take advantage of those resources that you said, Matt, You're great magazine, website, and the many other things you guys are doing. UM. It's been a it's been a great thing to be a part of. So, Matt, thank you so much for joining us here today. This has been really interesting. We appreciate your time. Thank you for having me. And I'll tell you on a personal I really enjoy what you guys are doing. I listened to podcasts and uh, um, keep doing what you're doing. I think you guys are doing a phenomenal job and changing things were deer hunters out there. Thank you man, I appreciate that. And hey, good luck on these upcoming hunts. Thanks you guys too, have a good one here, all right. So there you have it, another podcast in the books. And before we go though, a couple of quick announcements. First off, we've got some new Wired Hunt gear available just in time for the rut. We've got a couple of different styles of trucker hats, a flatbill, and some lightweight hoodies, so check out wired to hunt dot com slash shop to grab some of that stuff, and please do your purchases go directly to keep this podcast and the Wired Hunt blog going, so thank you so much for that in advance. Also, be sure to check out the White Tail Q and A podcast, which is my short or Q and A format show, as we've got some great related episodes this week too and next. And also my co host Dan has launched a brand new podcast of his own, so be sure to look up the Nine Finger Chronicles podcast. Finally, we do need to give a big thank you to our partners who helped make this podcast possible. So big thank you too, Sick of Gear, Trophy, Ridge, Bear Archery, Redneck Blinds, Hunter, A, maps, Ozonics, Carbon Express, Lacrosse Boots, and the White Tail Institute of North America. So with all that said, the rut is about to pop, So get in the tree, good luck. Until next time, stay wired to Hunt.

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