00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyon, and this is episode number seventy two. Today the show, we're joined by Randy Newburgh and we're discussing conservation, politics and hunter ethics. All right, welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sick of Gear. Now today we've got an awesome episode for you as we're talking about one of the most important topics that we ever will here on the Wire Hunt podcast, and that's conservation. And it's this philosophy of conservation that really is the only reason that we can do what we do today as hunters in the land of tremendous natural resources. So in our episode today, we're going to explore the importance of conservation and many other topics related to it. Enjoining us as a terrific guest, the host of Fresh Tracks with a Randy Newburgh on the Sportsman Channel and an excellent spokesman for hunters, Randy Newburgh. But before we get Randy on the line with us, Dan, this is kind of a strange episode for us, because at this very moment, while people are actually listening to this episode, you and we will actually be in Idaho hunting ELK. Can you believe that I'm Jack Man? I don't know. I've been really putting a lot of energy in the fitness category to try to get better. You know, I'm not going overboard as much as some of these other guys do, but I'm you know, I'm stepping up my cardio game, making sure my legs are stronger, focusing on you know, my back, and basically the total fitness instead of the my typical lifting routine that I've done for however many years. Yeah, So, assuming that all technically went well, you know, given the fact that right now we're in the mountains, assume that all goes well in this episode launches when it was supposed to launch, and that people are listening to this right now on Thursday, you and me are in day number four, I believe of our hunt and it's you know, let's say Maybes, and people are listening to this in the morning, day number four of our hunt. What do you think you're doing right now while people are listening to this, and how do you think you're feeling. What's your guess. Well, I'm gonna look at this for from the glass glass half full perspective. I'm gonna say that we're gonna be Thursday, means we're gonna be halfway home two back to the families, because we've already tagged out. Wow, very optimistic. Now I'm gonna give you the closely, the more um oh, the more realistic idea of what's gonna happen. And that's gonna be you're on some kind of satellite phone. Kept calling a helicopter to come pick me up because I'm completely exhausted and I have I'm lost, or sending a team of dogs to come and find me. That that could be too oh man, then make for a lot of Type three adventure, that's for sure. No, but I've been so today. I've purchased the last couple of things I needed to purchase now that we were going on this mule deer hunt. Now we're going on this elk hunt instead. I purchased a cow call today. I purchased some rein gear today, And I think that's about everything. I everything I have. The only thing I got to do is make sure all the stuff I do have fits in my pack, and uh keep working out and shooting my bow until it's time to go, and hopefully the area that we're going to, we we hit the rut. Yeah, I um, I'll tell you what, whether or not you know whether or not we hit the rut just right, or if we you know whether or not we find the elk like we think we will and hope we will. I can tell you one thing. We are going to be in some absolutely beautiful country. We're gonna have some nights we're sitting on a mountainside watching the sunset, hearing elk bugle in the distance, and we're just gonna turn a look at each other and just start to laugh because of how awesome that moment is. We're gonna wake up in the middle of the night hearing echoes or bugles echoing across the canyons, and you're just gonna sit there just like shaking an excitement, and you're gonna have so many moments like that that you just feel more live than you ever have. And it's gonna be It's gonna be incredible. And I think our topic today is very related to our opportunity to do those things. You know, the idea of conservation and the fact that we have public lands that you and we can go to, We can hike into the middle of for free and find great populations of elk to hunt and to feed our family was with. That's an incredible opportunity that we have, and it's something that a hundred and some years ago people then might not have thought that would be been around anymore because elk populations and dear populations and buffalo populations and all sorts of wild animals, they were nearly gone. You know, we had nearly screwed this entire thing up at that point. And it was because of people like us and our listeners, people that hunted and fished and loved the outdoors. Because people like that who cared about this stuff enough to do something about the problem and to fix it. It's because of those guys and girls that we can now do this. So I'm excited that we can dive into this more with you and me and Randy and talk about why this is so important and you know, how we as hunters can be better conservationists, and how how we can talk about this with other people too. Um, I mean you and me, we've talked about a lot. You know, the importance of being able to speak to some of these things, and how politics and the non hunting public and hunters and all these different groups we have to find some ways to at least communicate and work together if we're going to you know, see hunting and public lands and wildlife continue to flourish, don't I think? Yeah, I agree, I mean it has to be you know, it's not just being educated on conservation and hunting, but it's also how to express your views to the non hunters that is, is that is just as important because they're they're sensitive, I'll put it. Yeah, a lot of people to not only are they not sensitive, but they just haven't been exposed to this way of life. You know, Um, I think we've talked about it before. But you know, in my in my previous day job, I worked with a lot of people from like the coastal cities, big cities, and you know, never never got out in the woods or did anything like this. So when they know, when they met me and heard about what I did, it wasn't so much that they were negative about it or turned off by the fact that I hunted. It was more so that most of these people were just like bewildered and they didn't know anything about it, so they're actually just really curious, like you do, what, why? How? UM? So I think there really is something to be said about, you know, having those discussions and then also pointing out the fact and explaining how conservation and hunting are one and the same and can work together. I think, you know, this is something that has really come to light this summer with the whole Sea Silva lion poaching incident and all the media uproar that that came out of that. UM. You know, there's been lots of debate about, you know, if hunting actually can help conserve species and habitat and different things like that, and so so that's something I really want to talk to Randy about his take on UM because he is someone who has had a lot of experience having those conversations, you know, both with his TV show and now he he hosts a podcast which is really great, and he's also very active with the politics of conservation too. I've I've heard a lot about what he's been doing in Montana and being active and actually speaking to legislators and going to these different events and speaking on behalf of hunters and conservation and public lands and all these things. Um So, he's the guy who's actually not just talking to the top, but he's walking it too. And because of that, I'm really excited that he can talk with us, and I think he'll be able to help you and me, Dan, you know, find ways that we can do even more, and hopefully it's something, you know, something along those same lines for our listeners to. Um So, I don't know. I'm excited to talk to Brandy. He's a guy that I think we're gonna like to talk to a lot for sure. So do you think we should stop being around the bush and just give him Mr Newburgh call? I think we should. All right, let's get Randy on the line. Before we get Randy call, though, we need to take a quick second for a word from our partners at sick of Gear and this week, I wanted to ask sick of product category leader Dennis suck about why sick of puts so much time and energy into the production of their sick Of films, which have come to be known as some of the most powerful and inspirational short films in the hunting world. So here's Dennis on that very topic. Yeah, and it and it goes right back to the y sick question we talked about another podcast, and you know, and it's about that experience. And so when you look at our films, you know, a lot of other folks are you know, the experience was the you know that that that animal that they were able to harvest or whatever, and not that that doesn't mean something to us, but we really put a lot of weight on the entire thing that happens, you know, the trip there, the you know, the time in the woods, the emotional connection that those times have with us. And they're not always the easiest to convey in a film, but we really believe that for most people that's why they do this, This is why they go out. It's the thing that makes them feel um, rejuvenate and excited and and and inspire to continue to do the things they do. So we're trying to capture what we what's our that is the genesis of our feelings. We try to put that in our films. And and and that's a real sincere statement on or behalf um. You know. The other stuff is is nice to have extras, but that's the focus. And we think if we keep we keep doing that, and people keep seeing that then and they understand we're not a lot different than them, then they'll appreciate us as a brand. So what's your favorite of the films you guys have put out there so far? You know, you know, because of the because I'm in the white tail world, I guess I'm kind of biased, but I really like the Game of inches Um movie. And I think that for me, you know, it puts me in the moment and it has all those emotional things I talked about, but it also has a really great message and you know that that tie between you know, whether it's the gun Hunt or the Archery Hunter and all these other things. And I don't know if anybody here is a member of q d m A or any other groups out there, but thinking about how do we how do we have a voice, and you know, it's just a really good giving back message. You'd like to learn more about Sick of Gear or check out some of the sickest films, visit sick of gear dot com. And now let's give Randy a call. Alright with us on the line now is Randy Newberg. Welcome to show. Randy, Thanks Smarts appreciate you having me glad to be here. Yeah, we are really glad that you're here with us too. Um. I was just talking with Dan a few minutes ago about the fact that you know, I've from what I've heard from you and seen from you, you just seem to be a really terrific representative and spokesman for hunters and for conservationists. And because of that, when I had this topic in my head as something that I thought would be important to talk about, I knew that you would be a guy that that we need to share with our audience and then we need to sit down and and and just have a chat with for an hour and pick your brain. So we're excited to have you. Um, you're gonna find that that me and Dan can get pretty excited about this stuff, and I think you probably can too, So this should be fun. But yeah, I hope I don't disappoint with the leading that we really try to build you up here. Any Um, for those that maybe who don't know who you are or what you're doing today related to hunting and conservation, can you just give us a little background. Um, I got into this and what you're doing now. Yeah, most people know me from our TV shows. We started out with the TV show On Your Own Adventures, but three years ago became Fresh Tracks for Branity Newberg and you can catch that on the Sportsman's channel Wednesday night. I got to have a little plug in. Yeah. Um, so the promise of that show is of both those shows have been all self guided, all public land hunting, and not to the point where it's to say anything about guided dunning or private hunt hunting. And I've done all the above, um, but where I live in both in Montana, the majority of the hunting that happens here and in other places in the Last is on public land, and it's most often self guided. And I've looked around and said, wow, there's not many TV shows doing that, maybe I should try it. And seven years later here I am, so, I guess there's uh, there's some legs to that. And it's certainly not because of my pretty face or my radio voice. It is just a sac that the landscapes, the public lands of the Last are such amazing places. We've got so many amazing opportunities that people can come and for no more than the gas in the price of the tag, they can be out of here doing what they see us do on the TV show. And that's that's what drives me is growing up in northern Minnesota, a little town called Big Falls, the south of International Falls. I was lucky that I had public land out my door, and I kind of took that for granted growing up next all that public land, so that when I moved out west and in Montana were about one third public land one two thirds private land. I started seeing a lot of no trespassing signs and I'm like, wow, I didn't really see that in northern Minnesota, and so give me a new appreciation for what these public lands offer to anyone a wants to take advantage of it. And we ended up building this TV show on that premise. Um, we have a very large website and you go to Randy number dot com and it talked about our podcast, our left and all the other things that now have kind of built in addition to the TV shows. So that's a that's a little bit about me. Um, some of your audience and a mid Westerns are probably gonna say that, Okay, he probably still has that more than Minnesota accent. Hopefully they won't hold it against I hope they won't either. So on that note, do you do you ever get back to Minnesota or any anywhere out in the Midwest to still chase white tails once in a while. I do in the Midwest. We're kind of plan a hunt back to my home grounds of more than Minnesota, but it just schedules never seen to work out. I've been to Iowa and for the TV show. I've been in Kansas three times for the TV show North Dakota. That's that's about as far as we've made it for the TV show. But I I tell people there's a couple of things in my Minnesota DNA that I just can't shake and get rid of, even living out west here, and that's walleyes and white tails and my life. And I have crazy walleye nuts. Montana, and I shouldn't say if that's to Montana has a better walleye fishing than I grew up around in northern Minnesota. And if if those of you in the mid last came out to see how unhunted our western white tails are, we we'd sell a lot of deer tags to midwesterner. It's one of those things I've really wanted to do. I keep on hearing more and more about Montana and Idaho and Wyoming, um from a white tail standpoint, and I want to do it. But then my issue is that, you know the only time I could probably go out there do a white to hunt would be in September, and that's when I want to be hunting elk or something. So ye, too much time or too many opportunities are not enough time to do that. Yeah, that's the truth. Interesting side note, Randy, we're just talking about this before you got in the air, but you might not be aware that, you know, when this episode airs, Dan and I will actually be hunting public land in Idaho chasing elk right at this moment, So in northern idahow, southern Ida, southern Ido, southeastern Idaho. UM. So, so yeah, we're we're excited about that. It will be my third trip out there for that type of thing, and and Dan's first western mountain hunt. So oh yeah, he's about ready to have an addiction that he's not aware. I got an addictive personality, so I'm I can expect that it's gonna be right up there with my white tails. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's really hard to explain to people what the feeling the sensations, not just the sound. That's a false sensation of a seven pound bull out streaming at you from the TV doesn't do it justice. Nothing does it justice other than standing right there and your whole body vibrating from his noise. It's it's just so incredible, And once you do it, it's like, man, I need more of that. Yeah, that's that's exactly. That's exactly how I feel now after having done it in the last two years, and and every time I talk about it with Dan, I get all giddy like a like a school kid again, because it really is, like you said, it's it's an unbelievable experience and that sensation and really, like you said, you do feel in your entire body when that bull is a screaming his head off fifty yards away or whatever. It's there's nothing like it in the world. Yeah, it's fair is would you tell me what it is? Whatever can whatever in the hunting world, you know, I'd like to participate in it. Yeah, there's a there's nothing that can quite Just like you said, you can't really match it on TV or or verbally describe it. Right, It's just something you have to experience. So hopefully Dan, you and me right now will be in at this moment while this podcast is airing, hopefully you and we are hearing bulls vehicling, and hopefully we'll run around the mountains chasing one of them. So yeah, thank you. So, you know, sort of right on this topic of elk Um. You know, like I mentioned, Randy really wanted to talk about all things conservation and you know why Wese hunters have responsibility to be conservationists. What that means, um, how we can speak about this, what it means in the current cultural climate. I think right now, more than ever, or release more than in recent times, hunting is in the public conversation. Then maybe it hasn't a long time, especially unfortunately in a negative way, given the debacle this past summer with the cecil, the lion poaching incident, and all the talk that people are having about you know, conservation and hunting and if they if they can be compatible, and of course we hunters believe it can be. Um. But on that note, you know, the Rocky Mountain Eolk Foundation slogan is hunting is conservation. Can you share with us, you know, can can we truthfully say that? And if so, why in your opinion, Well, in the purpose of full disclosure, I sit on the board of the Rocky Now Now Foundation board of directors. So in case somebody says, hey, he's serving him off to the home team. Yeah, I'll just use an example right here in my backyards in Mandya. Everybody knows there was this controversial thing about wolves being reintroduced the yellow Stone Park eighty miles south of my house in and whether you were for that or against that, there are some undeniable facts. The undeniable facts are that help cannot live in Yellowstone National Park in winter. There's tanty to snow and there's no food, so those elk. Whether the population is higher though, those outcome out of the park either to the north or to the south, or to the east, and that's where they winter. And in Montana, the Northern herd has fluctuated anywhere from four thousand animals to twenty thousand animals over its period of recording those those numbers. And here in Montana the critical winter ranges, if you look at a map, every critical winter range that supports this migrating herd. Our lands that were purchased by hunters, our fishing game agencies through licensed dollars, both resident and non resident, use that money to go and acquire all these wildlife management areas. And people say, well, looks that got to do with the bigger picture of conservation. Well, if it were not so those winning grounds that hunters have bought. And we started doing this black in the fifties, So we're not the Johnny come lately to this whole story like some of the more recent arrivals who who like to criticize us, But we started doing this and in a manner that is, it is the foundation for what allows out to survive year round in the yellows in the yellow Stone ecosystem. If not fi those winning your winnering areas, there would be no help in Yellowstone. They would have all died. They just they couldn't make the winner. And so when you go to the next step of okay, we're recovering grizzly bears in the Yellowstone area, they went from a hundred fifty seven hundred wolves are now on the landscape. If you want to talk about the bigger picture of all species, not just the species we hunt, who are the people writing the checks, paying the money, doing the hard work, the heavy lifting. For for the base the foundation that supports all of those species, it's hunters, and so for the for the out foundation to use their slogan and hunting against conservation. I just gave you one example there. I could give you examples pretty much everywhere throughout the West, throughout the country where hunters and the money that we fund through our license purchases, our xis taxes on guns and animals through the putman robits, and that that money is what manages or funds for the management of wildlife and not just the wildlife or the animals that we hunt to eat. We're talking. Let's let's look at that unlimited they have conserved twelve million is the blat lands in this country. Think about all the I don't care if it's muskrats or songbirds or pelicans or you know, all the water quality benefits that come from that. The conservation of wet lands led by a hunter conservation group that's unlimited, has provided countless benefits throughout the country. Pretty much on everyone's back yard. You could probably find a wet land. The Duck's unlimited, and there are members have helped somehow, concerts and conning. That just is further evidence that hunting is conservation. And like, like you said, there are people who want to argue that fact. You can argue that based on a belief system or based on your opinions, but you cannot deny the fact that who's funding it, who started the process of conservation, and in this country, it's it's hunters, and we as hunters, have nothing two to back away from us anything. I mean, I think if you listen to my podcast, if you read a lot of what I write and what I talked about on my TV show, I think hunters need to start telling that story. So long as hunting has a function of food and a function of conservation across the board, most of society accepts it and appreciates it for those values. You start getting away from some of that stuff and maybe venage they're getting on dinner, right, Like, Yeah, I don't know if that's that ties the circle or ties the blow the way you were thinking of with that question, how it looks. And I know I'm jaded because let's say that I'm a hunter, So I'm gonna look at the values we provide, and I'm going to promote the values Honey, he provides. But no one can argue those when when it's fact, no one cannot they well they can argue with it, but great, you know, access acts so you know, like you, Like you said, there are some challenges when when having these conversations, and there's different ways those conversations can go, and especially given the current events, there's a lot of people who are rolled up about the stuff. Would you have or do you have any advice for our listeners, you know, for having this conversation when they're confronted about this or you know, Ceasil the lion got killed? Why would you? Why would you hunt? And do these different things? What's your advice for someone who's in a in a conversation like that or even a confrontation. How do we effectively communicate about how hunting is conservation, how these things go hand in hand. Yeah, and for me I, as you can imagine when you have a TV show, when you put yourself in profile that I do, you get a lot of these conversations on your lap either face to face or you get phone calls or the cussory interviews, and sometimes that you can tell that it's what the slanted view that is going to be a hard discussion to have, So I kind of break it up into two different discussions. One is, there are people who absolutely there's no amount of facts there's going to change their mind about HIME, and they'll go at the anti hiving groups and it's not so much an opinion based on facts and information. For them, it's a belief system. It is some sort of strange mindset that I don't adhere to obviously, and I can't really even follow much of a logic. But for them, you could provide them every bit of facts out there and you're not going to make a difference. So if I end up in that conversation, it's pretty much, Hey, I appreciate that you're concerned about animals. I'm concerned about animals. That's about all we have in common, thanks to your time, And I'm not going to frustrate myself and engage in a conversation where you are almost trying to convert someone to a different belief system. I'm almost a different religious here, if you want to call it that. And it's kind of like, there's no way you would have convinced my Methodist grandmother to be any other religion as you could give an old factionalping else. But that's kind of what you're dealing with this smaller group of people. The bigger discussion is with the people who feel that hunting has a place, that are open minded, that realize that hunting is a direct connection to our food sits. And we all see and we read about the recent you know, probably in the last ten years, this recent upsurge of Americans wanting to understand whether food comes, they want to understand the source of it, the quality of it, and that has helped open their minds to what hunting is. And so I mean, when I'm having that discussion with them, I want to focus on where are the common beliefs, the common feelings, And usually it is that we have a strong interest in food. We usually have a common understanding that healthy landscapes are what produced abundant and sustainable food sources. They probably also have a concern for wild life. We probably have a confirm for clean water. And they may not be comfortable with themselves converting converting the the wild animals for food. But as they think about it, they know they had a hamburger yesterday, or they had you know, checking the names or taking animes or whatever for breakfast this morning. There reaches they reached that point where they cannot deny that there's blood on their hands. Also, it's just a matter of do you want to take responsibility for it or do you not. So when I get into these discussions, I don't want on it to be a the the latter I yell, the greater the likelihood you're going to believe me or ad here to my opinion. I want it to be a discussion of here's the values I associate with hunting. It's part of my culture, as part of where I come from, It's part of who I am as my identity. But it also has the food value, it has its conservation value, it has all these other things that I do. And if you don't agree with hunting, hey, I understand that, but I hope you will respect that my desire to make the landscapes more robust, to make these landscapes more productive, helps not just me who who sustainably gets my food from these landscapes, whether it hopefully helps you or hopefully you can see that it helps you for the reasons that you appreciate the natural world. And I found that having that discussion on those terms is way easier than trying to just hander them and you know, be loud and vocal and say well, this is how it is and if you don't like it, you're an idiot. It's just you know that Those are the two ways that I used me end up in that conversation, and I would say most of the time it turns out rather favorable. Yeah. So so something in relationshi, what you just said there, and then something that I heard you mentioned on your first podcast of hunt Talk with Randy Newburgh. You and mentioned some people within the hunting industry who have a different mindset about how they communicate what we're doing, why we're doing it, and then how they react to people that don't necessarily agree. Um. And this is something that frustrates me, I think in the same ways that you do, UM, but I think it applies not just to celebrities but also to just all hunters, um, and how we carry ourselves, how we commune indicate, whether it be you know, in a conversation just like this, or what we post on Facebook or what we tweet or the pictures we post. Um. Can you talk to us a little bit about the potential risks of some of this flamboyant hunting behavior or or you know, aggressively anti anyone who doesn't you know, hunt. I mean, I feel there's some really strong risks to being like that, to the whacken stack mentality and posting, you know, twelve dead deer lying on a garage floor with blood everywhere and saying, I don't care what you think. Um Am I wrong there, No, I think you're exactly right. And that's unfortunately, that's the discussion. The hunting world has shied away from it for too long, I think, to the point where we're almost afraid of our own Seattle. We always run an hide behind this mantra of don't don't divide us, don't separate us. I get you know, I appreciate that, but we also have to look at it from the reality. The real perspective is that is, you know, these numbers changed slightly based on which there they read, but about ten of the country is anti hunting are hunters, and it's in the middle that really are going to decide what role and what place hunting has in our society. As we go for and you start doing some of these in your face, uh, sticking in their eye, blood guts, very little approved or at least the appearance of very little appreciation for the wild animals that we are eating. You start going down a path, there were that other eighty percent rejects that. Time and again they reject that. So to your point, are are we running some risks in doing that? I think we're running a great risk. And what you're referring to in my podcast was there's a well known hunting celebrity that really lit up those of us who were trying, who try in our messaging to show some reverence for a lot of eyes too to that very appreciative to maybe what we post, what we display, pictures, we share. Yeah, we do clean the blood off and when we do give try to give a different tone to it. And that person just lit us up for being a bunch of candy Can I say that whatever you want, being a bunch of candy asses? And you know it annoyed me. And I'm like, you know what, there is nobody in the hunting world. I don't care who you are. There is nobody in the hunting world who's more important than the future of hunting. And I think the TV guys, if anything, we have dependency that probably think what more important, and we probably are. I mean to mind, just some backwoods punk you sell off the lumber shop in Big Falls, Minnesota. I view it as my responsibility to do everything I can to give hunting a brighter place going forward. And the stuff I often see on Facebook or on whatever it might be, and a lot of the TV shows, some of the TV shows are absolutely the wrong message. And someone say, oh, Randy, you're just saying that because it's not your message, And maybe I am. I don't know. But when you have people boasting about I made this long shot and saw the animal run off and they took three more shots to finish it off, or you you know the kind of message I'm talking about, that is not what we really need to be telling the rest of society. If that is what we want as an image of hunting, I guess is where I'm one of this. That is not the image of hunting. It's not our place in society that got us to the point where we are today. What got us to the point of where we are today. They're back in the eighteen hundreds, when wildlife was being wiped off the face of North America by the market shooters, by the by the people who were profiting from wildlife commerce. The hunter stood up and setting enough as enough. And it wasn't until Theodore Roosevelt and his friends George George Bird Grennell, different ten show. I mean, the list goes on and on. They were all hunters, and they stood up and saying, in America, we can do better. We can build a collective conservation ethic within our society that will be better for wildlife and better for the landscape. And so we, as hunters step forward. Then as leaders, we step forward. In the dirty thirties, the Descolaires and we formed a lot of hunting organizations. We engaged in habitat, We started taxing ourselves to pay for habitat and pay for wildlife management. All the things that we've done to get us to where we are today that our parents and grandparents and great grandparents did. Wasn't getting on TV and bearing the idiot meter. It wasn't getting on Facebook and telling the world to go take a leap if you don't like what I do, how I do, Dadada. We got to where we are today by people thinking about this, by saying, hey, I want this to be something society views as a benefit to the bigger picture. And I think there are times that the message that hunting puts out there h is detrimental to the cops. And I got a real quick get you're gonna get a bunch of emails or calls and why do you have that more on the show. But I strongly feel that way. So, Randy, how do I want to say, probably the majority of hunters, how do we talk to those more flamboyant people and tell them, you know, it may benefit us as a whole to just calm it down a little bit. How do how do we talk to those people? Right? When you talk to those people that get very defensive, I've had the discussions with him. I'll tell you to go pale and sand So for me, I just I don't follow him. I believe them, I make I use my own platforms to counter their message and somewhat ridicule their behaviors. And when you talk to them, you're Unfortunately they're some of those most slamboyant of the term um are almost as obnoxious as the fringe. On the other side, they view that this is America. You can't tell me what to do, this is my right, blah blah, blah blah blah. You know what, they're correct in that system. But if we as the collective hunting community are going to let a few jackasses form my identity and we're not going to stand up and say anything about it, then we're somewhat complicit in that process. And I'm not going to just then be quiet. And if it upsets a few people that would imply that I care that they're upset. No, to me and to you guys, hunting is way more important to me than some game who having hurt feelings that I told them that I thought their behavior wasn't beneficial to the got on it, and then as you can, I'm sorry, go ahead. That's gonna be a debate or a discussion that I think happens more and more. And and you can almost take that to the to the point you got up earlier about you know, this lion poaching thing. And I don't necessarily want to compare everything to that or drag that in as an equivalent, but you know, we as the hunting world are going to have to discuss among ourselves when things like that happen. Is this really what we want hunting to be seen? So? Is this the image in the identity that we are telling the society as a whole who we are and what value we provide. No, I don't know, And that's a hard And then as kind of a follow up question to that, when when as a hunter, I know that there are realities of hunting, like bad shots that happened, Right, So if someone in let's say the hunting industry, and I'm gonna try to I'm gonna play this to you Mark just a little bit with the jawbreaker story and just to play Devil's advocate for a moment, bad shots leading to a non recovery and and ultimately the animal suffers and dies. Is that something you know as a hunter? I like to see that because it's a reality of hunting. Is that something that we should stay away from like putting on TV shows or not necessarily writing about, but keeping it out of the eyes of that other ten you know? That's that's that one lands right on my lap because I was lucky. I hunted for thirty four years and then never lost an animal. And then in two thousand and eleven I shot a black bear in Alaska. I'd lay there, I'd dry fired at him from two forty yards while he was sitting in the bed, and I just waited and waited, and finally when he got up, I made the shot. The bullet hit exactly where I thought it should. I thought it was a perfect legal shot. Unfortunately, I did not realize that in a black bear of that heart and lungs area is lower in their chest cavity than I understood it to be. So I hit the animal high and I chased the animal until dark. I followed blood on my hands and knees. It was the most gut wrenching, terrible feeling I've ever had in hunting. I hope no one else ever goes through it, but I know it happens. And so after that hunt, myself and the production crew we got together and said, should we really even be showing that? Um, what's what's the story? What's the value of demonstrating or providing this? And I decided I wanted to show it. I wanted to film it in or or have it made into an episode. And the reason being is I think we as hunters need to understand that occasionally that happens, in spite of the best efforts, in spite of all of our follow up all of our practice. It can't happen. And it's not that it did happen that is the make or break, but how that person handles it. Do they just say, oh, well, I look for ten minutes, I didn't see any blood. Post to the next thing. I struggled with that. As quick as I hit that bear, I punched my dag um because I knew it was illegal head. And even though I didn't recover that air um, I wasn't gonna go find another one. I've had another episode where I hit an elk and I thought I wasn't going to recover it. I punched my tag. The next morning, we went out searching again, and long behold, we did find the ball. He just expired and we salvaged alven eat. But those stories were very powerful and compelling stories. Had I just said, oh, well, that out too bad for him. I still have a tag. I'm gonna go shoot another one. I think that's a completely different message. And I read about it a lot on some of the web forums with guys who say, yeah, I wounded one, but I went and shot another one. And I asked myself, is our license to take one animal from the population, or take as many as it is necessary before we recover one that we've taken from the population. And that's each hunter's decision. But when we start sharing that message with a greater audience, whether it's the hunters themselves or outside there, uh, I think we gotta be careful and how we say that. And if we don't show some concern and remorse and regret, if we've seen callused and and then affected by it, the bigger society is gonna say, you know what, that's all the regard they have for for these animals that they're they're pursuing. Um, maybe hunting doesn't have a place. Yeah, it's a it's a tricky angle on on this whole topic. And I think, to your point, Randy, the key is is how it's handled. And then I think, if it is something that's going to the public eye, it's how it's communicated. Um. You know, in my case, for example, that Dana mentioned a few minutes ago, you know, I had a buck this year and wasn't able to recover him. Um, and I spent literally two days, twelve hours of daylight each twenty four hours tracking and searching and grid searching and no hands and needs and doing everything I possibly could and it you know, as you as you mentioned in your case of the black bear, it absolutely tore me to pieces, UM, and I felt horribly, horribly horrible about him. And you know, I shared all that through our website and our podcast, and I really talked about all these things. And you know, for the most part, I'm speaking to a serious deer hunting audience who's been through those things and who can appreciate the realities of the fact that this sometimes happens. But interestingly, I had a handful of people of non hunters who listened to one of these podcast episodes, UM, who used to work with me at a at a past job of mine, and you'll almost surprisingly they had reacted positively to that in hearing how much a hunter cares about the animal that he shoots, and hearing about how much we put into it and how emotionally affected and how you know, I think sharing that in some way in the right circumstances, I think can also communicate the same care and dedication that we have to the animals and to wildlife and wild places into this hunt in doing it the right way, UM, I think it all comes down to the execution of the actual communication and how we share these things, and and opening the door to people and say, hey, this is a look into this reality that we've partaken that sometimes isn't pretty, but we care a lot about it. Um. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. How that message is is crafted and how it's presented is a huge part of how people receive the message. And we've got to remember as hunters when we're doing this, whether it's digitally or printer TV, we are taking a very personal experience, the experience taking the life of another member of this planet and converting it to meet for our families. And I know very few hunters. Even today, when I walk up of that animal and I see that it's either or not this bluish green haze and not the sparkly brown it was just five minutes earlier, it still hits me very profoundly. And I don't care what anyone's religious or faith or level of the following is too to their belief systems, but I always give for me. I always give a prayer of thanks for that. And I'm not saying that that's what everyone else needs to do, but it just is that profound for me. So as we have something that is that important, an event that's been going on since man became part of this earth um and we we conveyed in a way that's rather cavalier, callous. That's that's a hard one for a lot of people, myself included, to swallow. I want to know that people appreciate what that animal represents. That the animal represents food, that animal represents the landscape and it's bounty. It represents the bigger picture of the habitats that we're trying so hard to conserve in a world where growing human populaation puts more and more demands on it. And that animal also represents to me and represents a gift to me from the herd or the greater population of those animals. And I'm going to do what I can to make sure that these lands and that herd is in better shape tomorrow than it was today. And that that's what all that means to me when I walk up there. And that's that's a lot of emotion, that's a lot of power that I'm trying to distill and properly convey in a TV show or for in your case, in a blog. And I hope that the hunting world realizes that we're being watched in today's world. People want to see do we have that concern, do we have that compassion, that appreciation, and so how do we communicate it? And I think a takeaway message here too is that you know, I agree with you a hundred percent and everything you just said there, and that this doesn't apply though just too people in the media like you or me or Dan or someone who has a larger platform. The same exact things apply to any hunter out there who maybe is just talking to one single person. But if that one single interaction that they have is one of, you know, one of their only interactions with the hunter. Maybe for a lot of these people live in very urban areas, they're not exposed to our way of life or to people that practice the way of life that we do. So every interaction is a chance to be that. You know, there's the potential you might be there one example of what a hunter is and does and says and believes in. And that's a huge responsibility be that to be that representative for all of hunting. I look at every engagement I have with a non hunter, whether I'm actually talking about hunting or if it's, you know, just on the fringes of our conversation or what I'm wearing or what I'm doing. I think about that all the time because it's just so important these days. It always has been, but especially important I think. And if you watch our show, um, one of the things that I've always struggled with, how do you teach the audience or explain to the audience the connection this has the food. And so for us, we'll either do segments we talked about, hey we're eating. Don't know what we saw us take last week or the week before, but we always try to show in some tasteful method the conversion of that animal to food, whether it's us putting it in our packs or whatever. Because as much as that's not a pretty sight, I think a lot of people look at it say, you know what, they're using that food source. It's a connection. That's how I came behind was through food. I mean, that's my family. We we hunted for food. And and so I think the bigger message is the greater the food message, the greater the acceptance. The less the food message or an absence of their message of this animal representing faustenance, the harder the harder it is for us to make our case. So I know some people will disagree at me into ranny. That's just too bad for them. Uh if they don't like the fact that I don't eat it right, whatever, And I get that everyone can do whatever they want proever they want. But again, we are in a different world than it was for our parents, for our grandparents, or in a world of high persensitivity. Were in a world of extremely fast communication, people form their opinions very quickly. And as we urban i and less people live in a rural lifestyle that is more attached to the land and the landscape. The greater the population percentage that doesn't understand the food source, doesn't understand the natural world, doesn't understand that for something to be put on their plates, something kind to die. And if we don't just stand up and say, you know what, this is the reality we deal in. We may not like it, but it's the reality we have today. How do we adjust, react and message ourselves accordingly? We might have a shorter path than we think. Yeah, that's that's the scary truth. Um, I've got one more, um equally controversial topic on this before I want to Before I want to take a step back a little more conservation habitat focus. But one more thing, when it comes to public perception. I want to get your thoughts on this. This is something that me and Dan have UM have shared our strong opinions about in the past on previous episodes. UM, and that is the concern with the perception that the public gets from high fence preserves. I personally don't like to call them hunting for serves. This is just me personally. I've got strong opinions about it. UM. But these high fence situations where deer bread to be freaks of nature and then people are allowed to go in there and shoot these animals. UM, There's a lot of debate about it. There's lots of high emotions about it. UM. I strongly am concerned about the risks, both from from a herd health and disease standpoint, but then also from the fact that when the public sees that and thinks those are hunters, that's hunting. That's something that a very negative reaction to and then pin that negative feeling and association back to all of hunting. That's my risk. How do you feel about that? You said it perfectly, UM. Back to my point that for me to consider something hunting, there has to be a food element to it and a conservation element to it. I have yet to understand what the food element or the conservation element is of raising a deer in a pan artificially inseminating the those and having someone coming by that deer after the menu. I don't know what. Maybe I'm just ignorant of it, and so I don't see the conservation value or the food value. Um. If anything, I can argue and provide all kinds of evidence that shows it's a negative conservation value because of the disease issues. The disease issues for me and you brought this up. Is a very big issue related to this. In Montana, and I believe it was two thousand or two thousand one two dozen too, we had a pallet initiative that said, you can continue to breed the the animals, but you cannot have them as shooting preserves, or you can breed them for food or for brood stock, but you cannot come here and pay people to shoot him. Instant, very big blow up here in Montown, and to the point where the legislature was going to intervene and they were going to reimburse all these people above blah blah blah blah, because supposedly there was no risk, no disease risk. So some of us went for it and said, Okay, if there's no disease risk, then why do you people, why does this industry fight every time we ask them to be bonded against that disease risk. Let's go to the open market. Let's find the place that understands ensuring risk. There's bonding, insurety, and insurance companies out there that you can get insurance for most anything. They're the experts in assessing risk. If they say there is no disease risk to captive breeding facilities, then your insurance should be just a minimal token amount. But you guys tell us that if we made you ensure for this risk, it would put you out of business. So obviously there must be a huge amount of risk that you can't have it both ways. You can't say there's no disease risk and then say, oh, for us to ensure for that disease risk, we'd go bankrupt. It's one or the other. Either there's no risk in the price to ensure is minimal, or the price to ensure is exorbitant because the risk is there. And if if these groups, if these businesses were required to ensure for the risk they're imposing upon us as a public, I think you would see the economics of those business models fall apart. Right now. They get to privatize the profits, they get to socialize the risks of disease. Like it was counting how many millions and millions of dollars has Wisconsin spent on c w D, how many hunting opportunities has Wisconsin loss in their efforts to eradicate CWD. It's crazy and right, and so we as the general public, we as the hunters of the non penned, nonpenned animals, those of us who want to actually hunt wildlife, we end up bearing that cost, both financially, both from an image standpoint, and also we end up bearing that cost from the opportunities that we loose. So and it's here's the sad part. It's a billion or some multiple billion dollar industry, which causes me to scratch my hand and say, WHOA. If this is what people want to form as the image of hunting going forward, society rejects that. You if you ran a poll tomorrow of whether or not the American public would accept hunting as pen shooting facilities. And some will argue, oh, well, some of these enclosures are a thousand acres or two underd acres or whatever. Fine, whatever. The public is not going to make any distinction for that. If you ask them, do you see a legitimate place for hunting in our future? If the image of hunting is raising animals for some sort of perverted method of grotesque antler growth and then come and shoot them and pay for them based on some arbitrary scoring system of which you do not utilize the meat, or maybe meat gets utoized somehow, I don't know, um asking that's the other of America if hunting has a future under that scenario, and I can tell you what that answer would be. So to your point, is this a risk for us? It's a huge reputation risk for hunting. And that's why I refuse to let these groups attach themselves to the noble, honorable, conservation based, food based notion of hunting in America. I'm just not going as far as long as I have a breath in my body, I am not going to recognize that as hunting. And they will use the argument, Oh, you're dividing the hunting community. We're not. You're a parasite who wants to come and attach yourself to all the values that our hunting has. You're the one who is trying to split the hunting community. You are a parasite that needs a host, if not for the host of hunting as we know it that has traditionally occurred in the United States for the last hundred and forty years. Those operations have no public, no future, no support that will allow them to sustain, and they want to call themselves hunting. I say, bus, that's not hunting. You're not doing anything to improve food, You're not doing anything to improve the landscape. You're not doing anything to improve the wild herd health of the other animals nearby. I mean, in Idaho, they allow it. They've had many escapements of of elk that have a lot of red deer room. Now we have the issue of okay, are genetically pure native elk are going to be affected by the fact that there are now some red stag running around out there? How do you measure the damage or the cost of polluting your genetic herds, your wild free ranging natural genetic cards it's all those kinds of things, whether it's TV, whether it C w D, all those things that are part of this bigger picture. And and we as hunters are going to have to have that discussion pretty soon and just called the spade a spade and say certain activities if they cannot add some level of value, we are not going to consider that nothing. And it's going to be in lockdown and drag up. So is that at that point? Is it? Ah? Is it a money thing? I mean, the only reason they're around is because they make you know, it's a billion dollar industry. Yeah, it's from my perspective, I don't know what other value they provide. And I get it that there are some people, due to their physical uh impairments or their infirmity, that they're not going to hike five miles into the mountains to do an alcome like idea. I understand that there are certain people who are maybe this is the highest level of physical exertion they can have. And so I'm not talking about you know those types of people that those are the ones who always get marched out there as the strama and the children Horsi, Well, this is why we need shooting pens is for these people. Well, those people aren't the ones who are generating billions and billions of dollars. And this is a huge industry. That's that's what it's become. And politically they're they're definitely a fellow. Look at the big battle that happened in Indiana over the last year allowing these facilities. If I lived in Indiana, I'd be asking the question, who's going to pay for this? If we have disease outbreaks? Who's going to pay for the opportunity costs if we have to go on. I love the term they used depopulate an area because of the c w D out Great depopulate, Let's tell it what it is. We're going to go and wipe every deer off the landscape in that area. The industry like to call it depopulate. And they don't want to be managed or they don't want to have their oversight under the d n A or the Gayman Fish departments. They want their oversight under the agricultural the departments of livestock. So tell me, are you hunting? And if you think you're hunting, why don't you want to be managed by a fishing game agency? Sounds to me like you're farming but your livestock because you want to be managed by your Department of livestock or your Department of agriculture. There's there's just so many incongruencies, so many arguments that make that that are illogical in in this process of trying to defend what I do not believe is an image of hunting that is going to be beneficial to us having a place in society as we go forward. Yeah, it's frustrated enough people, man, So so what do we need to do as hunters to make a statement to our political representatives to say we're against this that? I think that's that is the important part. Because we can all get on Facebook and rant one way or the other. We can consider, um, you know, complaining with our buddies. I think really it's time for hunters to become more politically active. And you've heard me say this on many other platforms on my podcast that these industries for in multiple different industries that look at the landscape, they say, you know, if we dragged this over to the world of politics, these hunters are not organized. Their kind of loaners as as as a general rule, they don't have any group that's good at dealing in the world of politics, so they the game farm industry is a perfect example. They bring that into the world of politics. They take their management or their oversight away from fishing game agencies, bring them to departments of commerce or agriculture, livestock write their own rules. Um. And so we as hunters are standing understanding what do we do about this? And really an answer is we get politically active, and and we do it at the local level. We talk about the importance of what these wildhoods mean to us. We talk about the importance of what our hunting heritage and are hunting image means to us, and that if these facilities are too exist, they're going to exist by paying all their own costs, absorbing all their own risks, assuming all the liabilities they placed on on society. And if then they can make it, well, then maybe we have a different discussion. But we still won't let them be called honey. And that's the landy new bird approach to it, because and we all get we've all been in the discussion. You guys have I have any I always try to tone it down a little bit because everyone pulls out the big Trump Card. Oh, you're splitting hunters. Is splitting hunters, and I don't know any guys that I hang out with it intentionally try to split the hunting community. Ah, But in this instance, you're really not splitting splitting the hunting community. To me, you're taking the tick, the chigger to the parasite, the lamb, prey off, the host, off this wonderful thing we call hunting, and you're throwing it to the side, and say, you know what, Mr Kick, Mr jigger, If your pen shooting operations can stand on its own without a host, knock yourself out. But right now, I'm not gonna like you all this hunting. You're not part of who we are. And I'm not letting something I love, something that is so important to me and my identity in my life and my family. I'm not letting that get drugged down the sewer with what you guys are doing just to spend some fast money out of this. I love the analogy. I do. I like the tick analogy. Um So about politics about hunters becoming more political, I have got two sides. That's one part of it I want to talk about is the risk of conservation hunting getting political But before I want to get to I want to I want to hear more about specifically what you're doing, because you mentioned we need to talk about these things at the local level. We need to you know, share this message. But from what I've heard, you are actually taking that one step further and you're actually speaking with legislators or hearing committee committees different things that can you talk to us specifically about, you know, what hunters can do, whether it be in regards to this or about just some type of habitat protection or gun rights or hunters you know, access or whatever it might be. If there's something that's going on in you know, politics that's related to what we believe in what we want to try to protect, how can an individual hunter make a difference. And the best thing I think hunters can do is go back to if you remember, fifty years ago, every little town had a rotten gun club or local sports and the association and politicians paid attention to those groups. And even if it's you, you and five of your buddies or whatever it is that feels strongly about a certain management idea or a certain political idea or of proposed legislation, let your local representative. They they're responsive. If they get one can email, one foreign finder, they're not going to pay much attention. They get five different phone calls or five handwritten emails, hand type emails, they start paying attention. And if it's your counting commissioners, whether it's your state legislators, whatever it is, they will pay attention. And you take it to the next level. Maybe it's not just a local area in your backyard. Maybe it's a regional issue, maybe it's a statewide issue, or maybe it's a national issue. Um you engage yourself with these people, and it's I know for sound that teams daunting. But we spend a lot of time typing out posts and our thoughts on social media, on forums or elsewhere. Spend some of that time sending an email. You'll be surprised how the response of some of these politics fisians are. And and that's where the other side is counting on the hunters continuing to be disengaged or apathetic about it. And if you can form a group of four or five fellow hunters, and it might grow to be a hundred fellow hunters, and you'd be amazed how much power you have I'll use an example here in Bodley, Montana high little town. You know, we've got thirty thou people in this town, and there's probably two or three hundreds of us belong to this rock and gun club. We have a huge way in what happens in statewide politics in Montana, to the point where now even our congressional and senatorial people when they're talking about hunting and fishing and access issues when they're back in d C. We're the ones who get the phone calls. A big part of being engaged in what's field saying that the work is just showing up. Well, if you're there, and you show up and you're part of the discussion, you're gonna have way more influenced than the other who didn't show up. And I know I did not something that people want to do. We're all busy, we got kids, we got work, we got everything else. But the future of of our activity hunting is going to be heavily determined by us being willing to engage the politicians who are more and more every year every legislative session trying to play political football with our issues. And if you want to score a touchdown, you've got to be in the game, and if the game is being played on the political football field, you aren't in the score touch down to it in the bleachers. That yeah, now that is like you said, daunting but important. On the other side of the fence, though, I see risks in the political politicalization of hunting and conservation issues. And I want to share one example, Um that I think you've you've shared some thoughts about before too, but it's something that just drives me nuts. And it's, you know, in relation to when we're talking about habitat related issues, something that is a hunter issue. It's an issue that pertains to what we do, what we love, what we care about, you know, protecting habitat for fish or deer or elk, or you know, setting aside land for whatever it might be related to conservation. These issues seem to me to be issues that are very much, you know, in line with with what we all hunters care about. But then you hear on the other side the politics coming into and saying, well, that's you know, that's a democratic issue, that's a liberal thing trying to you know, you're siding with all the environ environment analyst, you sound like a wacko. Um. People start saying, well, this is something that only if you're a Liberal or only if you're a Democrat you can do, and this is something you can only do or believe in if you're a Republican. And then I'm saying, well, hey, I believe in this and I believe in this other thing, and it doesn't fit any one of these two parties. And why can't hunters be pro protecting habitat or pro believing in the fact that there might be some things that we're doing that are not good for these wild places that we care about and that maybe we should change that. Um. Yeah, I think the biggest lists hunters have is if we let ourselves be defined by one political party or the other people, will you could go to anything I write, anything I present, and I go to d C or to the state legislatures. I'm an equal opportunity abuse and I'm an equal opportunity supporter. I represent the party of the hunter angler republic access from the wild life that we need. And if you're a Republican, they're a Democrat and you're in support of that, guess what I mean. You're gonna get accolades for me. If you're a Republican or a Democrat, and you're doing things defermental to that, guess what you're going to be in my crossairs. I have no use for political parties. And hunting did not get to where it is, Conservation did not get to where it is in America today by being a Democratic or Republican issue. And every time I see hunters go down that path on one side or the other, taking a spoon feeding from the political wunk from the talking heads, I just want to pull my hair off. I'm like, you know what, we as hunters have Howey's stood head and shoulders above the rest because we sorted true the morass. We said what's best for the wild life, what's best for the landscape, and we didn't care who was on our side. We just kept our eye on the goal, high on the ball of we are in this for the wildlife. The landscape in the next generation comes after us. And if you make it that way, it's a pretty easy. Politics is a pretty easy place to play because everyone else is thinking that you should be one of these party players. And when you engage yourself and you reject the whole notion of being one party or the other, they almost don't even know how to handle you, Like, what do we do this guy? What are you doing? What do we do with this group of guys? Well, that's exactly where I want. I don't want to be able to pigeonhole me, and I don't want them to be able to pigeonhole hunters and in our message of conservation and access in the future of So it's you're right, it's it's a very dangerous path to say, oh, I'm going to just side with the Democrats or I'm just gonna side with the Republicans. It's that's a path for at least half the time your enemy is going to be empower right, any more than half the time. So do you really want to go that way? And these these aren't political issues. These are common sense issues that pretty much all of America at the core supports. Conservation, supports wild by supports clean water, clean air, public plan, public access. So you don't have to make yourself a political partisan to be engaged in it. Yeah, I gotta say, Randy, this is this is very therapeutic for me because I'm getting to vent and then having someone respond positively right back to me. So thank you for that. Uh, well maybe if my wife, If my wife was listening in on this podcast, you'd probably be saying, don't listen to this guy. You should see him when he comes home after dealing with these people and DC dealing with these people at state legislatures. It's a path to insanity. Yeah, I can see that being potential. It's the problem too. But Man, I might be calling you more often just to just to scratch this itch. But but Dan, what are you thinking over there? Because I know a lot of these things fire you up to where do you want to go next to this? Well, so, from a political standpoint, you know, vote the number of votes is important, right, so, and and from a hunting standpoint, me and Mark have talked about this a while. You know, we want to have what's the term mark, getting more hunters, hunter recruitment, hunter recruitment. So the more hunters that we bring to the table, Let's say, over the next ten years, we doubled the amount of hunters in the United States. We had there's a huge push, and we got eleven million more hunters in the United States. How with would that positively or negatively have an effect on conservation efforts? I would hope that they have a positive conservation And the reason I say that as we'd have double the license sales. Hopefully we'd have double the membership in our conservation groups of Elk Foundation, Lab, Turkeys, Sentence Forever, Duction Unlimited. Hopefully we'd have double the number of people volunteering their time towards conservation project volunteering or donating their money towards conservation projects. Um. I think that would be right outcoming. I know some people say, well, yeah, but that's twice as many people in my favorite spot, or twice as many people competing for permission in the place I hunt. Wow. Maybe maybe not. I'm one of those They say you're either an abundance thinker or a scarcity thinker. I'm an abundance thinker. I think the more of us who hunt, the more abundant hunting opportunity and conservation and habitat will be, will fund more, will produce more, We'll have more opportunity. So I don't know any not even that. I'm all about whatever it can do, whatever we can do collectively to get more people connected back to the landscapes. But hunting is a way to connect to those landscapes by acquiring food, and so I think we'll be just flight. If anything, we'll probably see some of our best days ahead if we can stick to that message. So, Dan, I know that you at times we we've, like you mentioned, we've debate about this back and forth, and at times you have you know, talked about the concerns of more people out there, and lots of people can compellingly speak to the risks of there being you know, more hunters and you know, is there too many honors for the amount of land and things like that. Have your views changed at all? You know over the last year and a half as we've been discussing this, I think you've shared some things, but I'm curious to hear where your heads at on this now. Well it's it's I understand. I guess I should put this way. I understand that the more hunt or is the better. I just feel, and I've mentioned this before, that there needs to be more of a united effort between the hunters that we already have before we go out and say, come on, America, come on and hunt with us. You know, hunting is awesome. You know you can get your food from it. It's a rush, And then name all the benefits you know, through conservation efforts than saying you know, And I'll be completely honest, I'm a I'm a little bit selfish. Uh you know, I have and Mark, you know, I have a great farm. I have a great age class, age class worth of deer. If you added the same amount of hunters and added that same amount of hunters that are currently on my farm, that age class goes down potentially, the number of deer goes down potentially. And although there are a whole bunch of benefits of you know, from the monetary and the state and the government, it's I don't know, I just I just feel that there's some kind and of course there would have to be some kind of research done to find the perfect plateau, because if you add a whole bunch of hunters too are hunting, not everybody's gonna be able to go hunting. Like what I imagine is places like Iowa or Idaho that is or you know, for me, Iowa is I can hunt every year, but I'm going to Idaho and Idaho has uh you know, over the counter elk and mule deer hunts. I see, I see more hunters coming in than those start to turn into draw systems and and then hunters aren't able to hunt, if that makes sense, and that and that's a little bit of a narrow minded approach to it. I understand what you're saying. There are those risks, and I guess to Randy's point is, you know, hopefully there would be counteracting benefits from the influx influx of new hunters and the political clout where we would be able to produce more hunting access and we would be able to set aside additional landscapes and and continue to see those types of benefits. But I mean, you know, there's definitely some give and take there. It'll be it will be interesting. I personally hope it's a problem we'll we'll see and fix or we'll see the solution to but I don't know if we will um. But it's an interesting conundrum to debate, that's for sure. And then for from my perspective, and I used them double the number, and I don't know if that's one. It's probably not even reasonable and to just pulled out us in there, but I think it's nothing else there or the end goal is probably even if everybody doesn't hunt there, we don't have place as many people hunting. If we have twice as many people who understand honey and understand how it fits, what history it has, of how it gave America the whole notion of conservation, and there was no ethic of conservation is and in America until hunting, that we do all this other stuff that we are valuable. Um, if the number of hunters stayed the same, fine with me. I just want to make sure that our relevance is well understood to a greater segment than a larger number of our society every year. Right, So what what needs to be done for the current hunters and in that future generation of And when I say future generation, I mean my son and my daughter are more than likely going to be hunters when they grow up, basically replenishing the old guards, so to speak. What what can we do to unite? If you'd asked that one a lot also, and that I have a dandity to probably offer too simple of answers, but I'll tell you what my answer was. And my son is now twenty five, and we grew up in Montana, where you would think, to everyone in Montana there's a hunter or an angler, and that's not the case. We do have high participation, thanks, but for me, it was about just getting my son and his friends out camping. You go out camping, you find frogs and toads and snakes and birds, and you get wet, and I mean, we'd go and fish propies at this lake because I knew we could catch lots of them. And they get to stay in tense and build fires, and all of a sudden, these kids became very interested in just the natural world. And to me, that's one of those first steps of getting them towards being someone who understands the hunting and fishing lifestyle. I think at times we as hunters think you should take a youngster or a new person. Maybe they're a developed who's just wanting to get into you know, hunting, you fishing, and we throw them right into the mix. And it's either really terrible experience it didn't work out, or it's a really great experience, but they really didn't understand what went into maintain that such a great experience. And if they haven't followed the path, the steps to get there, do you think they're going to become hunters in the long term and become fisherman in the long term? I don't know. I think it's going to take all of us investing time in that next generation, whether it's our kids, whether it's there's scouts for age, whether it's our neighbor or niece or sue or whatever the you just that's something that you can just send. The more money you send, the more people you're going to get involved in hunting. It's an investment in time, that is really what it is. It's one of the great challenges I think of, you know, our generation, especially when it comes to you know, getting younger people into it, is the fact that there are so many distractions and so many alternatives in the world in many in many places is so far apart and so separated now from the natural world. Um that getting our our young people and our children and grandchildren involved and exposes types of things is more of a challenge and more important than ever as far as I'm concerned, I agree that the disconnect to the natural world. There's a lead part of what it's probably at the root of many challenges hunting paces is the society that they have of Oh well, I can so the gas paint in my car and that just comes from a hole in the ground. Right here at the gas station that has been collectively we have a big impact on the landscape. Or gee, I can go to the supermarket and I can buy this, and I can buy that and it comes from the back room of the supermarket. Well, they are no longer connected to a rural lifestyle or to the land, and that becomes them about as far as they think of it. They don't think of what's on their plate that gee, that was an animal that died, or that was chicken is in a poop laying eggs for me, or you know whatever it is that Okay, I'm a vegan. And how many millions of hundreds of millions of acres of wild habitat gets converted to agriculture so they can have their sway or their rights or whatever. So I think your point of America becoming less connected to the landscape, it's probably at the core of little challenge hunting is going to face in the future. Yeah. Now, now speaking of landscapes and being connected to landscapes, I want to kind of circle back to where it be game. We talked about the notion that hunting is conservation, and lots of times when we as hunters talk about that the first thing that people mention is something that you brought up, which is is very, very true, which is the fact that just by default, as hunters, buying licenses and buying ammunition and buying gear, we are providing the funds to, you know, fund conservation efforts. So by default, we as hunters our conservationists. But one concern that I've always had is that I think sometimes maybe some of us, even myself, lean on that too much and that, yeah, hunting is conservation. I'm doing this, I'm being a good conservations because I bought my license, I bought some new bullets, and I'm giving money back, you know, to the cause. My thought has always been that that's not enough, and I haven't you know, admittedly I'm not always I realize I'm not doing enough too, But my thought has always been that's a a danger if we start thinking that just by default, we're conservations and that's all we need to do. Do you think that there is additional responsibility for us as hunters to the conservation of our wild places and wild animals? And how does that take form? What should we be doing in addition to just buying a license. I agree completely with that worry Mark. It's a you know, we're in a time of of our country and our society where we like to be able to buy our advocacy. And if there's one thing that's distinguished hunters from the rest of society is we've not only put our money where our mouth as we put our time where our mouth is. And the days of just saying all I bought my license, that's good enough, that's unfortunately not good enough anymore because we're smaller percentage of society trying to keep landscapes intact against the pressures of a much larger population in our society. So for me, Um, I've been volunteering all my life for for these causes. So it's I don't expect people to to go to the crazy levels that I do where me and my wife and my son we would run a Duck's Unlimited Committee, or we volunteer for this project on that project. Um, you know some people that might just be hey, I can go and help with their shooting range one one Saturday a year. You know, it's it's it's going to be different for every person. We all have a different amount of time, money, or talent that we can can contribute to the cause. But back to who we are as hunters. We as hunters have got here to this point. We have built this conservation if you want to call it miracles of the past hundred twenty years, not by just buying licenses. Yeah, that's a huge help. We've done all that through the fact that we have huge the volunteer ranks among our conservation groups. We have hunters teaching hunter and we have hunters at the n r A shot and teaching shooting courses. We have hunters that are in fourage and Scouts and in all these other places where we are making a difference with our time as much as our money. And if if hunting adopts the idea that we're just gonna be able to fund this with what we pay for our licenses and our excise taxes us, it's not gonna be a very bright future because you and I'll just use some numbers and I don't know what the numbers are for turkeys or peasants or meal there, but I heard it your said, ducks unlimited. It's conserved twelve million acres of wetlands. That's the size of Vermont and New Hampshire combined. I believe the Rocking Dountail Foundation has conserved seven million acres of habitats. Those are big numbers, and that happens because volunteers are out working on those projects. Volunteers are holding fundraisers, volunteers are donating to the cause over and above their license tails. And that's what always made hunters different than the rest of society. I'll just use the example. In the year two thousand, there was a pill in Congress called the Conservation and Reinvestment Act, and that would have imposed a very small excise tax on things like chants and monoculars and backpacks, similar to the excise taxes we pay at eleven pound guns and I m al under Pittman Robertson and what we pay for fishing items under Dingle Johnson. And when that came up, the streaming and yelling by the quote unquote non consumptive groups as they call themselves, was unbelievable. They had their chance to fund them to help contribute to this conservation story, and they rejected it, and they got that legislation killed. My point being, we as hunters have kept up on the horizon. Going forward, we put our shoulder to the wheel we're donating our money, we're donating our time, and that's what's made the huge difference, and that's it's going to be even more important going forward. And I'll get off my soapbox now. No, I thoroughly enjoyed your soapbox moments there, and I think that is uh. I think that's a perfect place to close things up, because that is I think we've talked about all the different potential risks out there, and there's things that we as hunters need to be concerned about and that we need to be thinking about and that we need to be talking about. But in the end, the epolute most important thing I think that I'm taking from this is that that's not enough. We need to take action. We need to put our time into it. We need to continue this conservation legacy that hunters have driven for you said the less century, Um, and that's our responsibility and that's our mission moving forward. And I'm glad that there are people like you, Randy, who are spreading that message so um so effectively. So so thank you Randy for joining us here. UM. I've enjoyed this. I'm sure our listeners have to. If our listeners want to learn more about what you're doing. If they want to listen to your podcast, watch your TV show, participate in your forum, where can they go online to do that? Yep, if you go to Randy Newberg dot com any w B E R g um, we have links to all of our platforms out there. If you want to go directly to our forum, which is a large web forum about self guidas and public gland hunting. In the last you go to hunt Talk hunt talk dot com and you'll find probably more of Randy Newberg than you ever wanted. It's pretty easy to find this and for fresh tracks p v R TV show, you can go to the sports from the channel. Maybe keep a lot of information out there for us. And I just appreciate you guys having me on. I love hunting like tales. I love you out of the world, Dan. I got seven six or seven nonresident high with deer points. So when we get off the home here feels feels reading email me where I need to spend those deer points for next year. I think we're breaking up. I promise. If it's too good of a spot, I might not even bring my camera to I don't want I don't want all the secrets to get out. He won't even let me hunt there, Randy. Oh really, I let it just throw a dart out of map I guess I'll let you come with me next time, Randy. I'm I'm I'm more of a door pounder in Iowa, just trying to find somewhere and it's worked out. So okay. Well, guys, thanks thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I appreciate what you guys do in the message you're getting out there and peep at it absolutely well. Thank you, Randy. We will have links on the blog back to everything you mentioned so that everyone listening you guys can check out what Randy's doing. It's great stuff. As you've heard here today. He's a he's a great spokesman for what we're doing here. So so thank you, Randy, and good luck hunting this season. Thank you, Thanke care are you too? Well? How about that one? I think, without doubt that was one of my favorite episodes we've put together so far. I just love Randy's perspective on these topics. And you know, as I've said over and over and over again, I just believe that that these things are so important, this responsibility we have as conservationists, the responsibility we have to communicate effectively about hunting, the responsibility to carry ourselves appropriately as hunters, UM, and the importance of thinking through the ethics of what we do and how we do it, how we talk about it's it's just also important, And lots of times these things get swept under the rug and not talked about, while instead all we do is is rave about big antlers or wherever the latest crazy new thing is. UM. I think we've all been guilty of at times, and I'm just glad that we can have a conversation like this today where we bring to the top of mind one of these topics that that really is at the core of what we do and why we're able to do it. So I hope you guys enjoyed it as much as I did. UM. I appreciate Randy joining us, and I appreciate all of you joining us. So I'm gonna wrap things up here. We of course, first need to thank our partners who helped make this podcast possible, So big thank you to Sick Gear, Trophy, Ridge, Bear Archery, Redneck Blinds, Huntera, Maps, Ozonics, Carbon Express, Lacrosse Boots and the White Tail Institute of North America. Please help this podcast by supporting those companies that are supporting us, so thanks in Advanced for doing that. And with that all said, hopefully uh in the next week or two, we'll have some exciting elk stories to share with you as me and dan H hopefully return safely from this trip that we're currently on. But until next time, good luck out there you're prepping for hunting season or if you're actually hunting, and thank you all so much for joining us. Until next time, stay Wired to Hunt. H m hm h

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