00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. This is episode number one forty one. Tan the show, we are joined by and talking deer hunting tactics with one of the very lucky few deer hunters who has ever made the cover of North American Whitetail magazine. But this gentleman has actually made it three times with three different and that guy is Sam Calora. All right, welcome to another episode of the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sitka Gear. And today in the show, we're joined by a very special guest, Sam Clara. And Sam is someone I've wanted to have on the show for quite a while now, uh for for a number of different reasons. You know, first and foremost, he's a well renowned deer hunter who has killed a lot of really big bucks, including three deer that have scored over two and all three of those deer have been on the cover of North American Whitetail. So that's pretty impressive. But what's also particularly interesting about Sam is that his story one of his stories intersects with that of our very own Dan Johnson, my trusty co host. So some some of you guys might remember this story because we have talked about it a little bit in the past, way in the past, Um, about this hunt that Dan had for a giant buck known as Shipwreck. But but today we're gonna look back on that hunt again and getting that only Dan's perspective, but also Sam's now and then also dig into the stories of some of other Sam's other great big buck kills, some of the things he's learned, some of the fall bosophies and tactics that have led all the success, the success and lots and lots more so. So Dan, all right, are you ready to talk about Shipwreck again? Dude? I'll talk about that, dear anytime. I tell you the The one takeaway from chasing a big, mature buck like that for so many years is that was the buck really that kind of changed the way I started that I hunt, you know, Um. And then you know, we can get into a lot of detail about that some other time, but and I think we already have in some of the past episodes. But it's just it's a buck, buck that you hunt, you never kill, but he leaves you with something and he teaches you something. And that's what I that was my success. You know, I considered that a successful journey as far as hunting that particular buck, Oh yeah, for sure, just from knowing what I know, it seems like that, like you said, it's change you in a lot of ways. It molded you as a deer hunter and m and now here you are today. Unfortunately, unfortunately he hangs on someone else's wall. Who'll we'll talk to you here in a few minutes. But that's how it goes. But but real quick before we do get Sam on anything new in the world of Dan Johnson, you know, just husband, father stuff, you know that, uh that cubical life. Can I tell you that I was looking at reviews on iTunes. I don't know if you saw this one have put. Someone left us a one star review and they said if I wanted fathering advice, I'd go somewhere else. So I just laughed. So have I ever tried to give advice on this show? I don't know. If you ever get advice, it might not have been. It might have just been if I want to hear about parenting or fathering or something like that. I can't remember the exact words, but but they gave me a good sorry. I'm sorry to that person that I ruin into your entire day. And they weren't able to take away anything else from this podcast except for the very short amount of time that I actually complain about my own family. Can I tell you what, though, I can relate to you a little bit more today than I could have in the past, because this past Friday and Saturday, we babysitted my sister in law's four kids. So there was a two year old, a three year old, of five year old, and twelve year old. And that was a handful, man, that was real handful. So so I got to give them away at the end of the weekend, right like you. Still, they're not yours forever, mine, forever, my mind or mind forever true. I guess that's a that's that is an important difference. Let's not talk about kids, man, I don't want any more one star reviews. Okay, well do you have anything non kid related? Um? I went on a seven hour shift hunt on Sunday. What are you what do you find? Uh? Well, knocked on a door, picked up a new piece of property. Um, shed hunted it, hunt hunt? Well, I first I shed hunted hunted it. But the guy goes, hey, you know, as far as I know, we don't have any people bow hunting on it. So that's kind of a plus plus for me. And uh, but me and my buddy Ryan, we went out there and we walked it and oh my lord. Uh. You know when you walk into a piece of property, like when you're scouting this time of year, you're shutting and you can't it's hard to look for sheds because you're looking at so many massive rubs that your heads, your head just kind of goes up and starts looking at places for tree stands. It was one of those kinds of spots. Yeah, one of those kind of spots. So um, and it doesn't hurt. You know how I always talk about, you know, if you can't get the main piece of property, try to get the property next to it that it maybe looks attractive on a map. Uh. That's exactly what I did. And um, the sign in there, I mean it's nothing but a little finger that pops out of a little creek system. But the neighbors it's all managed and it's you know I got don't. I don't know who the owner is, but you can tell from an aerial map they have food plots and shooting houses and stuff like that. So that's awesome, man, that is good news. Yeah, I heard you. Uh you went out and got a piece of property too, right, I did. I. Um, what's it like, I says? Last night? Um, I knocked on doors last night. Um. The past week or so, I've been maybe a little longer than I've been driving around in the evenings check out fields, trying to see where all these deer feeding now and kind of pinpoint of handful that I want to try to get permission on. So last night and knocked on the doors for three of them. Um. Two of the places I had to come back to twice because no one was there. On one of them, no one was ever there. The second place they already shed on a hunting so I couldn't get permission there. But the third I did get permission. So uh, I haven't walked it yet, but probably tomorrow the next day I'm gonna go check it out. And this is a piece that is very close to my main Michigan uh spots where you know Holy Field is or was or hopefully is. So, um, I'm hopeful that he that this could be one of the spots where his sheds could be. So I'm excited they'll get permission to check that out. It's it's mostly big crop fields, but there's been a lot of deer feeding in it, and there's some fingers of timber where there could be some deer bedded or you know, hanging out in the middle of the night. So there's there's a chance. Yeah, for knocking on doors is pretty good. Yeah, I agree, even you know, she hunting permission is a lot easier than getting deer hunting permission. But but in Michigan, it's all it's all a win. Yeah, so plus your foots in the door. Man, you know I'm a bow hunter. Oh yeah, Oh we don't. I don't think we have a bow hunter on our property, which you know, Michigan, who knows. But you know, for me, I saw some tree stands while I was in this in this piece, but you know, they're all on field edges that looked like places for muzzle loader or you know, other types of stands. So as uh, when Turkey season arrives, I'm gonna go back to the same house and go, you know, basically start that process of letting them know who I am and what I'm about, that I'm not a terrible person, and that hopefully that all rolls into me creating a relationship with them to get my foot in, you know, to start bow hunting it. Yeah, that's the way to do it. Um, we gotta we gotta end this pretty quick here because Sam's expecting us, but really fast. I'm just curious in your neck of the woods, what have you been hearing from people as far as percentage of antlers that have dropped, a percentage of bucks that have dropped already. Right, So, I had a good conversation with a buddy of mine who's a die hard too, and he says forty are dropped, are dropped. But for me, the trail camera exsures that I've seen and that I've gotten from a couple of other people. Uh, it's less than that. So it's it's still not what what I If I could take it all back, go back in time, I would have saved that seven hour walk for probably this upcoming weekend or the following weekend. Yeah, I've been hearing similar things here and from my buddies in Iowa. I've heard like sixties still holding. Um My, my camera pictures have kind of dried up. Like I mentioned, it's uh, they've they've moved on to better food sources. So I don't know what's going on here, but the well, what I can say is all the time I spent driving around the past week and a half, I've seen hundreds of deer and only one of those is a buck, or only when one of those holding antlers. Um, So, either you know a lot of deer round here have shed or it's just typical Michigan where there's hundreds of doughs and one buck in the whole burn area. So so I don't know about that, but hopefully there's a few antlers on the ground. Will we'll see. I'm gonna try to walk this weekend and then the following weekend is the Iowa trip. So that's right, that's right. Excited about that? Yeah, buddy, Well, should we wrap this up and uh give Sam call. Let's get him on the phone, all right, I'm looking forward to this. So we're gonna take a quick break for a word from our partners at sick Gear, and then we'll give Sam call alright, So today I want to give a big thanks and kudos to our partners at Sick of Gear for doing something that Dan and I have been talking a lot about lately, and that's standing up for public land. And this past week, Sick of Gear send out an email to their whole email list, which probably includes tens of thousands of people, rallying the Sick Could Tribe to take action in this fight, and I thought their message was just was just spot on. So I thought today I could share a little bit of that email with you because I really really liked what they had to say. So here we go, Sick Could Tribe. Public Lands are at the heart of everything we do as hunters. Public land and wildlife are uniquely American traditions. All of us, regardless of our personal wealth, enjoy the privilege of accessing public land and water to support healthy populations of fish and wildlife. Access to quality public land that supports these opportunities is vital to our livelihood as hunters. We live and breathe public land and water and understand the importance of these places more than anyone else. This is the land that we all own as Americans. It's land that I cherish with my wife and daughters and land that all of our children grandchildren should be able to hunt, explore, and enjoy. Unfortunately, as we have all recently seen, there is a very real effort to diminish and sell our public lands. These efforts will compromise family traditions, our ability to put healthy food on our dinner tables, and the lifestyle that defines us. This public land transfer movement seeks to transfer federal public lands to the states under the promise of greater public control. The reality is the public already owns these lands and transferring them to the state would only increase the likelihood of future privatization. Too many sections of public lands have already been privatized, resulting in little or no access at all. As hunters, we do not want to give up another acre. Under direct pressure from hunters of all stripes, hr SI, which would have sold over three million acres of public land, was finally withdrawn by Representative Jason Chavitz. This is a positive victory, but there are other efforts that threaten our public lands now. The email goes on to explain three specific issues. Hr SIWO, which is another one proposed by Chavits which tries to remove the BLM enforced service law enforce and functions horrible idea organ House build two, three six five which will empower a tax force, a task force to research the benefits of transferring federal public lands. And h J Resolution forty four, which will reverse improvements made to the Bureau of Land Management planning process. These are three specific issues they mentioned here and now will continue reading that email. They say these are only a number of the issues that are a threat to public land access. We can and must take action. We urge you to call your representatives and tell them you oppose HR and HB and support keeping public land in public hands. These are issues that transcend politics and should unite us as sportsmen, women, and children. The diversity of the hunting community is our strength. Politics do not discriminate in the field. We all share in the tradition of public hunting as equals. Additionally, we urge you to join us in supporting the efforts of back country hunters and anglers, Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and our other conservation partners who are driving the public lands agenda. Become a member and support organizations that are making a difference. United with these conservation champions, we can send a strong message to legislators that the hunting community will not allow the sale of our legacy public lands are vital to our lifestyle and the future of hunting. Now, that is an awesome message right there. That's the end of the email, and it's one that I'm so proud to see come from one of our great partners at sick cad Gear. And if you'd like to learn more about SIKA, I'd highly encourage you to head over to sick good gear dot com check it out. And now let's get back to business and get Sam on the show, all right with us. Now on the line is Sam Clara. Welcome to the show. Sam, Thank you. Yeah, we we appreciate you joining us, and we've actually talked about you a decent bit over the past couple of years because of your relationship with Dan, but but for a long time I want to bring you on here and just talk to ourselves. So that said, though, for those in the audience who aren't familiar with you, can you just give us a little background into who you are. I got here cutting your background and hunting in your business related to deer. Uh you sure, I've been hunting all my life. Thirty years ago this spring I started raising white tailed deer and I don't I had them about a year and a half and and we started collecting urine and we've we've started a company called Mrs Dopees Buckler and we've been collecting urine and selling premiere quality lures every since. And and you're also running a sporting goods store there too, right? Is that is that okay? Still? Yeah, we've got a little archery shop, a little archery and hunting shop that it goes along with that. It's kind of a sideline to the to the buck lure. But but it's uh, it's a neat little business. Yeah, bet So what about hunting? How did you get into chasing deer and now chasing some of these world class dear? You know, my uncle gave me a set of shed antlers when I was eight years old, and I've always said that he was the one that started this curse because I was antler crazy every since. I love deer, I love antlers, uh, just everything about him. It's it's it's been quite a quite a run. Yeah, I think me and Dan can relate a lot of us can relate it. When did you so, do you start you started deer hunting at a young age or did you did you get serious about later on? Or when when I was young, we really didn't have any deer in this area. Uh. I can remember seeing the first the first three deer I saw. I was probably twelve years old and a buddy of mine's mom was taking us to a to a farm pond to go fishing. And we went back to town and told everybody was everybody we knew that we saw a deer. I mean that was a really really big deal. Back as as I got older and the deer started to you know, to prosper and do well and and propagate, we you know, we we started hunting and the rest is history. I guess what year was that, Sam? When when you were you know, when when deer start finally started to I get start making a presence in Iowa. I was probably eighth grade, two freshmen in high school, so uh, sixty three sixty five right in there is when we really started seeing dear. Okay, and then and then I'm curious now that invention that Dan, Now I'm curious when or what was the quality of the deer herd like back then, I mean right out the gate where when you start seeing a lot of deer. Was it all of a sudden and lots of these big, mature deer or did that not start happen until later in the seventies or eighties, or when did we start seeing the Iowa that we know now? You know they it wasn't that far into it that that there was some really nice deer shot and seeing. Uh, we pretty much have everything here we need as as far as you know, to produce really good deer. It's just a matter of getting enough deer out there to get some age on them to to really you know, show the you know, show the size of the deer. Yeah. What are those things that you that you're referring to that you think, you know, help Iowa produce the quality deer they do. What are those factors? Well? I think a big part of it is is we don't gun hunt during the rut. I think that's a huge part of it because that allows some animals to get some age on them. Uh. We have a good amount of cover, but we have tremendous agriculture, Uh, mineral content is really good. There's a lot of calcium and you know, just all all of the above. H then the genetics are good. I mean, it's just every everything we have going here in Iowa for for growing big deer is it's a win win. Yeah, it sure seems like if from everything Dan tells me about the good times he has out there, you guys have got a good situation. So, Sam, there's a lot of want to cover on our conversation here, because you've obviously had a lot of interesting experiences hunting and killing deer out there. Um. But but one hunt in one story in particular, it is kind of where I wanted to start because it's it's this interesting intersection between your hunting past and my buddy Dan's here um, And it's kind of a cool opportunity that we have you both here to talk about this story for this deer known as Shipwreck. So so I thought we could maybe start there and maybe Dan, Um and you get you guys can tell me how you want to tell this story. Maybe you guys don't understand the timeline better than I do, but but I think the story starts with you Dan, and maybe do you want to set the stage here and tell us maybe an abbreviated version of your side of the story, and then we can jump over to Sam and hear the parallel side on on your end. Yeah sure, I mean, oh, it's been a while now, but we used to hunt in an area where our property we're close to one another, and and my first year in this property, I saw a lot of good deer coming out of a portion of this property that was kind of between the two and uh, one day a giant white tail just popped out, and uh, I mean it was shipwreck. And that's kind of the abbreviated version of a five year story that I can I had from with this buck. You know what I mean, that's all you're gonna tell us is that this big buck popped out. Well, I mean, I mean, you know, like like I said in the in the intro, it was it was my very first encounter with a buck of that caliber, and it's it changed the way I hunt to this day. Being able to experience this buck, learning from his movement, learning you know, the times of year, he moved, the wind direction, and just you know, basically observing a specimen like him kind of gave me an education. And you know it he was, you know, I I believe he was probably working both properties for you know, but probably closer to where I was hunting. And then you know, later on on his life, he probably started moving down to where where Sam was hunting, and that's where the intersection kind of takes place. Yea. Now it's been probably two years or so since we actually went through the detailed story of like all your encounters with him. Can you walk us through just I mean, for because there's probably a lot of listeners that are new that missed that episode number thirty or whatever it was that we went through, you know, the timeline a little bit. Can you just give us a little bit better idea, you know, because this was how many years this go over the course of and I mean, weren't there encounters for three or four years or something where your close calls or you spent your whole season, you know, focused on him? Yeah? I think, Uh, man, Sam, what year did you end up harvesting him? Oh? It would have been, uh two thousand and eleven, was it? Because it was five well no, it was eleven, okay, five years ago. Okay, Yeah, So I think my very first encounter with him was in two thousand seven, and um, you know, he he had a very small core area. I feel as far as I know, he would make trips outside of that every once in a while, but for the most part, he lived in a very small core area and his his movement was very limited to a very small portion of of the farm that he lived on. So you saw him two thousand seven, yea, stall him in two thousand seven, didn't see him in two thousand and eight, Solomon two thousand nine. I shot him but didn't kill him in two thousand in and then Sam Harmon harvested him in two thousand and uh eleven, two thousand nine. Actually I saw him multiple times, gotcha, and and it was two Well when did the obsession begin? Like, when did you start like completely focusing on this deer? Was that chose nine or ten? It has been two thousand nine because I had um that's when I started running trail cameras. That's when I started having all the encounters with him. That's when I started losing sleep over this buck. Okay, So then, Sam, when did when did shipwreck enter your life? When did you first see him? The first time I saw Yeah, it was the day I killed him. Was it really you see that? Set back up a little bit. Let me back up just a little bit. I have a set of ships from that deer when he was seven and half years old. I killed him at nine and a half years old. So we knew he was living there. We knew he was, you know, on the property. I had never seen that deer as an adult deer at the time. I really didn't run any trail cameras. I just hunt. Uh. Anyway, he he. I went in there that night with a with a donastrous drag rag and did it. I've kind of kind of prescribed way that I used it. Anyway, he was. He was the fourth buck to come in that night on that drag rag. Wow. So so what day of the of the month or year was this, and can you tell us what you how you specifically use that rag that drag rag. Yeah, it was. It was the eighteenth of October, and it was the first time I had a favorable win what I thought thought was favorable for where I wanted to. I wanted to and and I actually went in there looking for that deer. But it was the first day of the season that I had a favorable wind. Uh, temperatures dropped and got cool and just kind of drizzly and damp and dank, and and it was it was just perfect, and the wind was out of the right direction. And I went in and pulled the drag rag and and here he came. What did you so when you saw him walking in? Did you know who it was? Right away? It was that buck from the sheds? Will I will never ever forget as long as I live. I I watched and Dan remember how his front or at the end of his main beams tipped up? Ye hook hook clear up. I saw that hook coming from behind a tree. And I went on and I thought to myself, well, there's a little shipwreck. I probably ought to kill him, so so I will never forget it. I can't. I can imagine. Now, did did you know other than the sheds? Did you know that other people like Dan or some of the other hunters around there had been seeing him? Because I remember, there's there's a I think there's a handful of you guys that had been seeing this deer? Is that is that right? And this is this is a win win deal. You know, Dan and I are hunting properties, you know, Jason to each other and nice and close, and when he shot him in two thousand ten, he came and asked my permission to walk across the property if he could trailing through, and I told him he had blood going through, to grab his bone and go kill him. Anyway. He came back and told me later that he didn't find him and he didn't go in the property because there was no blood going in, and which which I appreciated because he wasn't and they're just pushing mine out anyway. Uh, this is this, This is a win win deal because you've got two guys hunting a great, big deer on you know, properties, right beside each other, and we're still friends. Yeah, that's a big, big deal. Yeah, this said, how often that kind of thing ruins relationships when people let a big deer get in the way and cloud things like that happens way too often. I think, Yeah, the thing that was kind was really I didn't I didn't quite get at first. When when Dan came back and told me he didn't find him, he stood there for the longest time and looked at me, and I went, oh, damn, that said five find him later. I'll give him to these yours. You shot but he was giving me his look It's like I'm I'm what's going on here? That I finally figured out, like, yeah, he's yours. Well that was I was probably in some form of shock because it was the biggest buck I ever had an encounter with. Yeah, you were, You were in bad shape, buddy, Torah. So so you said that you're going into that spot on that night for shipwreck. Um, what what made that spot so good? And why did you think that'd be a spot you could kill shipwreck on that day? We we have a little bluff over the river and it's it's kind of the funnel of the river bluff for miles either direction. And if you go in there right and and hit the ridgeline, a lot of times the bucks will come in there and sent check the whole thing. And and I worked that ridgeline. But but there's a bedding area that's been there, and like I said, we've hunded this area for for thirty years, and there's an area in there. There was a betting area that was really good, thick seaters and brushy, and they they would go in and bed they're always anyway, it got to where it canopied the trees canopied over it, and it was starting to thin out. And a couple of years previous to this, I went in there and hingecut uh, probably a core of an anchor and where that old betting area was, and I hinged cut a bunch of trees and it just got thick and nasty and and I worked around that, across the ridge line and around that heading area with that drag rag and got into where my wind was perfect, and and that's where he that's where he came in. I killed me. Well, when when you shot him? Yeah, tell me, I guess, tell me, tell me what happened after that was an easy. Recovery was a tough one. How did all that go? And then I'm kind of curious about how then you told Danna how Dan found out how that whole thing went down. Yeah, the recovery was was really easy. I I shot him. Actually. The first thing I do want to get in the tree stand always is to check my equipment and make sure everything's good. And the second thing I do, and I don't care if I've been in the tree a thousand times or once, I always try to check the area i'm in to look for the worst possible shot. Well, and this this case, I had a blowdown that the top of a tree. It blow him down, and and I didn't know it since the last time I was in the stand. Anyway, there was I was looking for a hole to shoot through and I found it. I found actually a couple holes, and I thought, well, if a deer came through the back side of that, you could probably slide an arrow through there. And sure enough he came in on the rag and then he turned and came on the back side of that blowdown, and I remember thinking he's gonna step right into that. And when I was thinking whole you know, the boat went off and the arrow went through him stuck in the ground. And he turned to my left, jumped a little ravine and then started uphill, and I mean he was he was pouring the coals to it. And I roared at him. I did a buck grunt roar uh really really loud. And anyway, when I did, he I think he thought another bucket stuck in because he came to a stop like a cutting horse, I mean just slid to a stop and me and he turned and he looked right at me and he tipped over. Wow. Is that something you've done in the past to stop a buck when he's running off and has seen that work more often? Yeah, I've done it, done it a lot of times. They will, they react well to it. Wow, that is really interesting. I've never heard that mentioned to do with white tails. I've seen people do that and heard people do that with elk. You know, you start cal calling after studing an elk, and lots of times i'll stop, But I never heard about that for white tails. That's a it's a really interesting idea. I was with a guy in New Mexico and I had shot a bow elk with a bow and it was running towards a ravine and if it would have dropped in there, we had to take a skill of them there and ate it. You'd never got a fount anyway. He he did that, he he cal called, and it stopped right at the edge of that that drop off, turned around and looked at us and dropped it over. When we pulled a pick up up to him and loaded it. Wow, that's crazy. That happened with shipwreck. That's that's really interesting. So he tips over, Um, did you do? What was your I'm sure you were like rewind here a second. I've got ten thousand questions in my mind. I want to ask. I'm first curious, when you saw that buck coming and you're getting ready to shoot him, did you do you still get some kind of buck fever? Do you still get nervous when a comes in front of you? Or have you seen so many big deer and killed so many big deer? It's just going about your business, you know. I I'm I'm solving as rock and I don't have any problem at all until I release the arrow. I mean, I'm I'm solid. There's there's no problem, there's no jitters, there's nothing. But when I release that arrow, just turned to garbage. And I did, and I still get that that adrenaline dump that that is just it is so unbelievable. Is that something saying that you've had to learn how to um deal with over your course of hunting, or is that something that you know basically comes with Hey, I've been there before, I've been around big deer. You're experienced in that in that type of scenario. Or is it something that you've always been rock solid from day one? Now, I I wouldn't say I've always been that way um, I always keep it together, but I used to get more more fluttered, you know, before I dropped the arrow. But yeah, it's yeah, I'm I'm good until the you know, until I pull the pull the trigger on the release, and then it's just. My son and I sat in a blind together this fall. We had two deer, the one our hit list, and I killed the first one latent or late muzzloader. Was the first day of late Muslims season. I just could not get together with him with a bow. Anyway, I killed the first one, and in a week later, I'm sitting in a blind with my son and I've got a bow because I haven't filled my bow tag yet, and he's got a gun and he's not wanting me there because the big deer comes in. He wants to shoot him, right, So he tells me this isn't right. You've already shot at here. And I said, well, if he comes in close enough, if he comes in close enough for bow, I'm gonna shoot him. And anyway, we talked about it, and and I was getting sick, I had I was getting the flu, and I was a key all over, and I didn't want to sit in a tree stand because it was like twenty degrees and a twenty five wind, And so I went in to blind with him, and I said, what are the odds of us seeing that we neither one of us have got in this buck within range all season? What are the odds he's gonna come in here tonight with both of us here. Well he did, and he turned and came almost. I mean he was turned, coming right square in front of the blind, and I had the bow in the window, hooked up and and I was ready to shoot. And he veered off and went away. And anyway, I stepped out of the window and I said, get on him. And anyway, my son ends up shooting this year. We watched him run into the timber well. I went to lay my bow down in the blind and I went I turned around and looked at and says, okay, so you shot this deer. How come I'm shaking? And I was shaking like a leaf. But I guess being in the window and having the bow ready and and yeah, but but I never did it till after after he shot. So it was kinda fun. It's good to know that feeling doesn't go away. That's what it's all about. It is still exciting. Yeah, So after you shot Shipwreck, Um, when did when did Dan find out? How did how did Dan find out? What? What was all that about? Uh? Dan at the time was was with White Knuckle Productions and he and he and Todd were doing their videos together. Anyway, I knew that they had a series of videos back I'd watched I'd watched the videos of this big Buck, and I knew that they had an ongoing relationship with this deer and and Dan was obsessed with him. And anyway, so I called Todd and told him that that I had good news and bad news. I said that the good news is is is uh. I said, the bad news is shipwreck got shot tonight. And I said the good news is I did it. And he said I've got him. And anyway, I said, I know you guys need closure for your videos. So if you want to bring your cameras tomorrow, um, you can, you can finish that off. And and he called Dan right away. And then Dan called me back right away and told me congratulations. And you know what, I liked Dan before that, and I like him even better afterwards because he didn't get pouty about it. He didn't he didn't uh, didn't have a fit, or you cheated or you did something wrong. It was it was then you want congratulations, and and he was happy, very very happy for me. That's a big deal. That's awesome for sure. What do you remember about that moment, Dan Paul, It was it's it's hard because when you when you obsess over something like that for so long, and you know, deer hunting is our passion, and you come across the deer like that, that's, you know, a once in a lifetime for for me, it has been so far, it's a once in a lifetime opportunity, had a giant, a true two and um. And then when that story comes to an end, you're you're happy that it's you know way, you're happy that it's over. But at the at the same time, you're you're sad because that that deer has brought you so much enjoyment, not just from hunting it, but you know, sitting down in front of a computer looking at maps, you know, trying to figure throughout your next next move, playing basically chest with it. Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. I we're gonna say something else, Yeah, And I think I think what was it saying, am I that weekend that because I was, I was at work that whole week. So then that weekend or the following week, I I came down to the shop and he let me. He let me take a look at it and put my hands on on shipwrecks rack. And it was to this day one of still one of the coolest and counter like experience. Says We just was just letting Sam, letting me hold those antlers and look at them and touch them for you know, because that buck had had meant so much to me, even though I wasn't the guy who harvested it, you know what I mean, So that it was that was a win for me. Yeah. But what you know, we talked earlier about the fact that you said he learned a lot from this deer. Did you learn anything or did you change at all? How you I don't want like you obsessed over this deer. You we've all done. We've obsessed over deer and then in this case, somebody else killed it. Did this change at all how you view your chase for a specific buck. Did it help you, you know, not feel as bad or did I don't know what changed for you in that regard, you know, just and maybe and maybe Sam could talk to this a little bit about how he has approached his tenure as a bow hunter. But I think a lot of it had to do with, you know, me just being too aggressive right off of the bat, when the when the hunting season started. Yeah, so just from a hunting perspective, that you got too aggressive and and that was a big and that makes sense and I can see how that might be something you would do when you're hunting. So so Sam, what about for you? Was there anything that you learned after this hunt, through this experience hunting shipwreck and finding sheds and everything. Did you come out on the other end having learned anything different? I don't know that he taught me anything because, like I said, I only had one encounter with this deer. I didn't even find the She had a buddy of mine us here that I bear hunt with from Canada and he was here turkey hunting and he found the sheds. So I really only had one encounter with with shipwreck. Uh. And And don't get me wrong, I have a an incredible respect for these animals and their abilities and and you know, they beat as more than we beat them. That's for sure, But I can't really say that, you know, Shipwreck taught me anything. Uh, I guess the biggest thing I got of course, you know, chilling a great, big deer is always always incredible. But I think the biggest thing I got out of it was, you know, there's there's still a lot of really good people out there that are in our hunting hunting, and you know, Dan's one of them. He's he's he's uh, you know, he's a tribute to our sport. Well, I think that's pretty accurate, right on. So, so Sam, what about some other deer? Has there been any other particular deer you can remember over the course of your past hunting seasons that you can look back on and say that experience taught me something or that changed how I hunted. You know, Shipwreck was that deer for Dan. Can you remember any kind of experience like that for you? You know, yeah, for sure. And and it's probably not the deer I've harvested. It's probably more than the ones that have beat me, which which just a lot of them. Uh. Yeah, there's there's deer that that I zigged when I should have zagged. I pulled a drag rag in one time and I made a sharp ninety degree turn and the deer was falling in, had his nose to the ground. He was dog paddling. I mean just he was on it coming in and I had turned really sharp and he went right off of it, and and I could not get him in. And I I swear to god, it was the biggest deer I've ever haunted. And I didn't get him. He beat me and I beat myself on that one. Wow. You know we have we don't talk about using drag rags are often. I know you mentioned how you used it in the shipwreck case, but can you just walk us through high level what the right way in general is to use one of those, and what your specific technique usually you know in general intails. Yeah. The first thing is that when when I do a drag rag, I always using the Dylan astres and I think that's something that one of the things from raising deer and living with them, we've figured out that if we use dough and astros before the dose in the wild come into heat. Just just like shipwreck, I kill him the eighteenth of October, so we weren't even close to the being in our rut. But the box are capable of breeding as soon as they come out of velvet. Uh they you know, they actually prior to that are are impotent. They have to get their testosterone level up and that's what shuts the blood suply off to the antler and allows them to become viable and able to breed. So you go out there with with doan estris early prior to the rut. And what I do with a drag rag is I will start, First of all, I do tons of preparation for my for my scent and scent control and boots. You know, the boots don't go to the grocery store the game as station. They they're in a tote. They get and I get dressed at the edge of the timber when I'm going in and the boots come out of the tote and I put them on. I do cheat a little bit. I wear those boots in my deer lot when I'm you know, when I'm doing chores and that type of thing, because I've got lots of deer sent there. Uh. The other thing that I well with the drag rag itself, I'll start out pulling the rag. Basically it's just a string with a with a cotton rag on it, and I will apply a little bit of sent to that rag on the way in, and I will continue to add to it all the way into the stand. And by doing that, I'm not trying to get somebody to, you know, slash a gallon the lure out there to sell a whole bunch of it. We start with a few drops, continue to add a few drops all the way in, and what we're doing is showing which direction that deer is traveling, so the scent gets stronger all the way into your stand location. Okay, as you make your final approach to your stand, it doesn't matter if you command with a wind or side wind, or how you do it, but your final approach to the stand needs to be with the wind to your back walking into the stand, And in doing that, when you're sitting in the tree, you're not up there blowing back to the deer. The deer scent would be blowing to you final approach to the stand. I always always trying to make a little bit of a hook, and not real sharp, but just a gentle little hook. So and then put the rag like in a little sapling or something, and I want him to turn and get his attention away from me. Not look. I don't wan him to come in and park stick his nose on the rag and look at me and the stand. I want him to come around and be poured away and paying attention to that rag the other direction. And I have done this so many times, I mean just over and over and over and had had dear do exactly what they're supposed to do. Mhm um. You mentioned that you're usually gonna start using this type of tactic in the pre rut. How far how far past that will you continue doing it? Do you do it all the way through November through November? Or when do you stop using a drag like that? You know, I'll use it all season, all the all the way through. Uh. And you think about it. You got pre rut, You got bucks out looking for does, and they're traveling and they're looking and I used the first of October when when we open here, uh, bucks are capable breeding like the first of September. So the first of October when you're out there doing that, they're not going to command like they do November one. They're not gonna command crazy, But a lot of times they'll walk in and do exact care what you wanted to do without going blowing through. You know, if you if you're hunting the right when everything's you know, ram and jamming, and everybody's you know, going her mile hour, it's much harder to kill a deer if you got him walking in and and going over and sticking his nose on a drag rag. It's it's a heck of a lot easier to put a hole in him. Very true. Well, would that be the case? What would your favorite what's your favorite week of the year to be out hunting white tails? Last week in October? And why I don't have any competition? The does aren't out there stealing them from me the boat. The bucks are all ranging. Uh. And and I'm saying in the last week in October to the first week in November. Uh, the bucks are all ranged, and they're all out there looking for a girlfriend. And it's so much easier to get them to do what you want them to do, uh than it is if he's if I did a did a seminar down to Atlanta one time, and I had I had this, gave him back and we got to the question and answer thing, and anyway, the guy raises his hand and he and he his question was when the bucks are controlling the rut, what happens? And I stopped him right there and I said, you know, bucks are not controlling anything. To hang on him, and how many married men would get in here? And then you know sus in race or hand Listen, how many of you folks control I mean, how mean you guys control the rut at you're out, no kiddings. So so you know, if if you don't have any competition from the ladies, you can you can be the only game in town. And it works. I mean, it's just unbel eviable how it works. And you know when the when the girls start stealing them. I related to hunting turkeys. When you're out there on that green field and there's a there's you know, a gobbler out there with sex hands, it's real tough to call him over to the edge of the brush and killing he's not gonna leave her, heard them, And it's the same thing with a buck he's with a hot dough, real tough to get him, get him to come see you. Yeah, what other speaking of drag rags and stuff, what other sense do you use? And what other applications other than the drag rag approach or is that the only way you're using your sense? No, I I will I've got a I think Dan may have used some. We've got a it's fairly new. Uh we call the land mine. And we have a bottle of lure that you actually bury the entire bottle in the ground and and you once you've got it buried, then there's a a on the bottle. You pull the ring and there's a wick inside the bottle and you pull that wick up out of the ground and it permeates the scent, and and you do it in a scrape area. And it is unbelievable as the action we get all those things. Well, you're using that. I used one this year and uh I didn't take your advice, Sam, and pack it down hard enough. And they will they will, they'll, they'll dig it out of the ground with their hooves. Yep, they'll steal it. We've we had we've had a whole bunch of guys that had the last picture they got to their landline. The deer had to wick in his mouth walking away with the bottle. Uh So what we started doing is boring a hole in the ground with a cordless drill, and then we pressed that bottle down into that hole and that keeps him from digging it out or pulling it out with the mouth. Interesting, very interesting. Yeah, it sounds like a good type of situation for great trail camera pictures. I've used a lot of mock scrapes and things like that with my camera for photos, but I've never really settled on a particular scent or lure that I've been able to use that has worked for me best. I've still kind of just stuck with natural market kenyon human urine, and I've been meaning to try some different things, So maybe I need to try something like that. Both both of the bucks that that my son and I killed this year were we had had a lot of trail pictures of them over the land mines. M hm. Do you do you use other things during the rut or pre rut time period that we've been talking about, like aggressive calling techniques or anything. Um. Absolutely, uh. I love to rattle. It's what a thrill when they come, you know, come into set of horns being smashed and and you know, I rattle like ground. I I do everything that that a deer just you know that. The other thing that I can tell you is I've lived with deer for thirty years and I've I've spent my lifetime studying and trying to understand what they're doing when they're doing it. Uh, body language is huge. Knowing what you know no one by their action what they're gonna do next, and they're not always knowing, but but having a real good idea what's going to happen with them next, and and being able to call them into your stand location and and you know, it's just all of those things together have you know, have really helped me to harvest bigger deer? Yeah? Imagine can you give us some examples of some of that body language that you look for and and how you react to what you see them doing. Yeah, I've done seminars all over the United States with about white tailed body language and it's still fascinates me. There's there's a couple of instances I can tell you that that you know, and and one was with with uh real well known celebritating standing on the front porch of my shop. We've got deer right there by the showw and this deer started walking up the hill and I looked at him and said that deer is gonna lay down. And he goes, how do you know? And I said, I don't know, but watch him. He says, what makes you think to us? I don't know. I said, just watch him. And he walked up, you know, three quarters away up the hill. He stopped, walked in the circle, made another half circle and laid down. Anyway, the guy to stick, I guess, I don't believe it. Anyway, he goes, I need to spend more time here. They tell it, They telegraph. I don't know, if you know, I was a huge wrestling state every kid, and I was wrestled sometime or another. And one of the things that your coach is always teaches your your opponent will telegraph, and he will. He will tell you if you if you're if if you watch close and you understand it, he will tell you when he's gonna move, and they'll be just just something there. You know, there's a look, there's a nod, there's a you know, there's a there's a dip, there's something there, And before he moves, he'll telegraph that move to you and you know what's coming and you can react. Okay, dear do the same thing. They telegraph through their eyes, their their ears, their hair. I mean when you know in that hair and we've all seen their hair stand on end when they're you know, there's two of them bristled up looking at each other. Uh. Tarsal glands will actually flower and open up when they're nervous or if they're upset, either one. If they're scared, nervous, upset mad, that that tarsal gland will open up and flower. And you know what it looks like on a dead deer where there's laid down, it's almost like it's combed and groomed. It'll it'll honestly open clear up. The preorbital gland on the on the deer's below the deer's eye will flower. It'll open up if they're if they're scared and nervous. Uh. Those things tell you that you know, this deer is probably going to jump the string on me if if I shoot, because he's already on high alert. You know, if the deer standing there and his ears are about halfway down, sitting there and I call him being a neutral, he just standing there completely neutral, nothing going on to do to do, and you know just you know, zipp an arrow right through it. If you see his tail half mast and and kind of quiver and he's probably urinating. Uh, what a great time to shoot. He's not thinking about nothing else. Uh, Buddy, Buddy and I were on our way home from a moose hunt up in Saskatchewan and this deer was was was stopped and he was hunched and it was it was a buck and his back end was lowered. And anyway, we're driving along down the highway and he goes, hey, look at deer's taking the poop And I said, no it, Smittie, it's not I said that deer will will poop on the on the move, on the fly, and he doesn't have to stop and concentrate it. And I said he's taking a leak. He goes, well, I guess you'd know. So so yeah, it's just there. There's just a million things they can tell you by their posture and hair and and and all the things they do. Yeah, Sam, what about barometric pressure and moon phases? And you know a lot of these hunters out there, they get caught up in you know, trying to for you know, predict deer movement based off of those two, and including whether is any of can any of those be connected? Or is it just kind of hogwash? Now I think I think there's a lot of merit to all of it. I don't understand it well enough to to tell you that that you know this is how to do it, but I guarantee it has merit. Uh here again, I kind of cheat. I look out the window, and if my dear a all up on their feet, I know it's a good time to be there. It's it's a pretty good bromber. I have guys call me at the shop and they go, what do you dear doing? That's how they're all bedded down? Okay, I'm gonna wait a couple of hours. Well, but it really it really is the same if my dear, if all my dear in my pastor if everyone of them is betted, I guarantee it's the same thing in the whild It's just and and I should probably pay more attention to barametric pressure and moon phase and and see what what that has to do with what I'm what I'm seeing. Are there any other things that you've learned from watching the deer that you've raised that you've been able to apply in your actual hunting. All the above, h everything that we've talked about. Just you know, when you when you know that the deer's you know, and when he locks up and he's standing still, or or he'll he'll and here again he a telegraph that he's gonna move. Uh. It gives you a great idea when to draw the bow, when when when not to draw the bow. Uh, it's all every every little detail he gives you can help you somewhere or the other. Uh, kill the deer. And and even even calling you know, if you're if you got him in that last few steps and you can watch him, no know what his demeanor is, it can it can help you either either you know no when to dummy up or when to be aggressive and do some calling. Yeah, speaking of calling, can you can you um oh, diving a little bit deeper into your specifics of you know what what types of calls and grunting rattling sequences you use when you use them? Um, you know what in particular you actually do. I don't know if you heard that or not. I got a bowl elk and just bugled. That's awesome. I'm sitting outside my Homeie he's entertaining my neighbors. Uh. As far as calling, uh, I don't know. I I do a lot of a lot of different calls, and a lot of times I just mimic what I hear my does do with with their babies and around the box. Uh as as well as grunning, you know, and like I told you earlier with with shipwreck, I you know, I made a very very aggressive, you know, growling loud you know, basically the you know, the roar and and I've only heard that a couple of times in a while. But sher locked him up. Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. M Moving back in time a little bit. You killed If I'm wrong, but I believe you killed your first two deer in. Is that right? That's correct? Could you tell us the story of that hunt in that deer? That deer was I had passed the deer hundred yards from where I killed in the year before that was a great, big, lanky, tan tan pointer looked like a three year old. And I don't yet, I don't know that it was the same deer, but I always, I always would like to think that it was. But uh, I went out to the eleventh of October and there again pulled the drag rag out into the sand location and had some dosee that I busted on the way in. And I was hoping that didn't screw anything up, but had squirrels played in front of me. And across the c RP field, this deer came in from and and and he didn't come down the drag rag trail, but he came from down wind of the drag rag and walked right to it. So he had come all the way across the c RP field with his nose in the air, walked right to that drag rag and and stopped. H I tried to get a shot on him, and I drew the bow and I and and here again I was. I was solid as rock when I did it. And I kept thinking, boy, that's a that's a really good book. You know, I need to kill him. Well, I drew the bow and couldn't get through the brush, couldn't get the shot, and I let it down. And when I when I let the bow down, it was just I don't know, it must the simulated taking the shot, because I turned a junk. My knee started shaking, and I was started to chatter, and and I can remember telling myself. You know, this is a really good buck. Don't screw this up. And I talked myself out. It was like, get your act together, straightened up. When he comes by you, you gotta be ready, you gotta be able to kill him. And I did. I got squared away, I got got my you know, got my nerves under control. And I know, three or four minutes later, he turned and came from right to left and walked by me in about thirty yards and I slipped a narrowing M wow, what was then? I turned to garden? What was that stand set up? Like? What made that the right spot to be? Uh? Kind of well, it didn't even end up quite like I thought it was, but it was I was. I was set up to catch him coming out of betting, defeating and trying to have have him catch my drag rag on the way, and he actually came from the opposite direction. M what about your They don't always play excuse me, they don't always play the play the game the way we think they should. Yeah. I gotta take advantage of whatever they give you, right, absolutely? Yeah, Dan? What were you about? What are you thinking over there? You know you've been not only do you raise deer, and you've been you know, raising them for thirty years, but you've been a hunter for almost, you know, pretty much your entire life. Translating that to what the average guy does, What are some of the biggest mistakes you feel hunters make in a year when either going after, you know, a group of deer or going after us specific mature buck. I think sent control is is huge most people, don't, you know. I have guys that were sent lots suits that that don't wear a hood. Well, don't bother, you know, because you're your ears, your hair, your breath. You know, if you're not containing it with carbon, don't don't bother wearing the suit. It doesn't matter. Uh. Using the wind I think is probably you know, And I do all the scent preparation. I do everything with with scent lock and use it, try to use it correctly. Uh. With that, I still use the wind every time I hunt. And you know, I talked to guys it's like, well, we've got twelve stands and there's twelve of us, so we all go to one of the stands every day. You know, Well, you know, if the wind isn't right, don't hunt it. You'll take the day off, whatever it takes. But but don't go in and screw it up. Dear, pattern us way way better than we patterned them. If you go in and the and the mosquitoes are biting and you're you're swatting mosquitoes and and sweating and and doing all those things, just you know, don't go go fishing. Don't pressure them. Uh. De react to pressure more than than I think anybody realizes. I try to scout from from you know, three quarters of a mile away. I don't want to go in and bust them. I don't know. I just there's there's a whole bunch of things that I used to do that I don't do the same anymore. What are some of the other things. What are some of the other things that you've how you've evolved. Well, just like I said, if the wind isn't right, don't go there. Uh, save the save the location. Uh. The first time in the stand is always the very best. And I have over the years used a climber a lot, and I'll go out and just have spots where I can go and and not necessarily you know, anything set up there. But if the wind's right, and I've been seeing some action and things that are working. Sometimes if you just move, you know, thirty yards from where you were and go up in the stand, you know, sometimes that's all it takes too to throw them off and and put you in the right place. Yeah, it's the little things, right that. That's one of the biggest things I think Dan and I have learned over the years, is like just the importance of every tiny little thing you can move in your favor. Those things add up right, Oh, absolutely, And that's something that I've always I've always try to try to tell my customers and even when I work on their boat, I tell them that the little details kill big deer. You know, I haven't having everything set where it's where, you know, where your peep site isn't gonna move, or you can't come loose or uh those Like I said, little thing, little details kill big deer. Yeah. Are there any other things that you do different than most other hunters? Is there anything else really unique that you apply when it comes to deer hunting that you do that you think is a little bit different than the average guy girl. Probably the biggest thing I do different than than every than of the people is I have set my life up around deer and deer hunting, and I I will probably spend fifty first forty to fifty times uh what the average hunter does sitting in a tree stand. A lot of quality time a tree Huh. Yeah. I had a young man coming to my shop one day and told me he was he was really really upset because he almost fell asleep in the tree stand. I said, how old are you he was? He wasnteen years old. I said, I said, hey, I've had that many years of sleep in the tree. I said, I've slept the tree stad longer. You been a lie. But no, I you know, you've got to spend the time. You know it. It doesn't just happen. You gotta be there. But but on the other hand, if if it's not right and the wind isn't right and the conditions aren't favorable, don't go in and booter it up. What you know, what I tell you, how much time I spent in the stand. It's you also got to understand that there's there's a whole bunch of different stands and a whole bunch of different places where I'm going and I'm not going in and booter and one up all the time. Yeah, Is there anything else you do other than careful seting control and just not going in to hunt too often to reduce dear the pressure, the pressure you putting in your dear. Is there anything else about your strategy or your access routes or anything else that you focus on to make sure you keep that pressure low. Yeah. I've very much tried to slide in and slide out. I've got some buddies that have hunted with me for years that that I finally got. I'm convinced that they needed when they come here to hunt with me, they needed to see every inch of that tember. It's like, guys, you don't you know, you don't need to do that. All you wanna do is slide into that stand it's already there. Slide in, slide out, you know, go around the areas where you know there's gonna be deer, you know, if you've got to a field where they're where they're feeding, Uh, go around it, you know, and and slide into the stand. Don't don't booger it. Just just keep the pressure to to an absolute minimum. We try, you know, in the off season not not to booger things up. Uh, and and give the deer a lot of pressure. Um, try to give him plenty of feed and cover and just lay it. Said earlier about you know, hand cutting that that betting area, I've done a lot of that. I've cut trails from from betting area to betting areas, so I've got good travel corridors. And with every bit of that. Every time i'm doing that, I'm figuring out where I'm gonna have a stand location that i can slide in and slide out without being caught. M Speaking of the hinge cutting, are you doing any other habitat work? Do you plant food plots or any other betting improvements or anything like that. Yeah, I'll be above. Yeah, what what have you found to be some of the most successful improvements you've made? You know, I'm interested in like a specific food plot, how you plan it, or like a specific instance of a betting cover improvement. Um, any unique example you can share with us that was really effective. Yeah, you know, with food plots, I found that if we've got farmers and farmer ground and that's what they do for living, they're really really good at it. Uh. We all want to do little food plots here and there, and and a lot of them never make it to maturity because you know you're going in and putting putting a variety of something in there that that the deer really like, and they hammer it and it's gone before the season never gets there, uh or it never makes maturity. What I like to do with food plots is is I will have the farmer, whatever he's planning in my field, I'll have him plant the same thing, same variety in my food plot, and for the whole season they've got you know, let's let's say there's you know I've got Let's say I've got a two acre food plot and there's there's sixty acres that the farmers got. Well, I wanted to be the same thing. So when the deer and there, they've got sixty two acres of beans. Well, when the farmer takes his out, I still have beans because they didn't go in and just devour mind because it was the only beans there. So I feel like that's really important. I have food when you're done, and when he takes his out and you're the only even town. True, that's a nice position of being too. When you, like you said, when you're the only game in town, you all of a sudden can pull in a whole lot more dear and really focus that dear travel I imagine two. Would that mean the case? Do you specifically plan some of your hunts or some of your hunting strategy around when you know the crops are gonna come out? Like do you stay out of certain areas because you know that this spot is gonna be a lot better once the rest of the crops come out. I don't know that I I necessarily stay out of them, but but you can sure see the difference if you know, if if you got standing corn and you know they're so you got three acres of standing corn all the way around you, whether it's yours or the neighbors, you know, it's real hard to find deer when they can walk out in the the middle of that cornfield disappear. So yeah, that groceries have a lot to do with with my hunting strategy. I mean, you got you gotta know where they're going to feed, where they're going to bed uh and and groceries are there, and what you know what they're looking for. You know, early in the fall, they're they're probably not going to be on the cereal crops are gonna be out on green and and we always plant clover, and and you know we've got a variety of things and and no one when and when the hunt them is is probably very crucial. So what does your what's the timeline look like? Then? It sounds like you focus on green early, clover early, and then how does that shift throughout the rest of the season, Uh, once it frosts and and and you know if he gets you know, snow covered, unless unless the clover is really tall, they're they're probably not going to hit it that hard. And you know, it gets cold, and they go they go to the corn and beans. Uh. Just and and I and I know there's a you know, a ton of different food plots and providers out there that that they all have a you know, they're particular thing and ne Brassicas and all of that. Uh. And you you know the other thing is you can sit back and scouting kind of kind of watch and know what they're doing when Yeah, speaking of scouting, and it sounds like you do a lot of long distance scouting. I think you mentioned earlier that you don't run a lot of trail cameras. Why is that because I'm older? You know what my son is getting me, you know, I guess in the twenty one century, and he's he's gotta be kind of excited about these trail cameras, and we we had more fun with him this year than than I have ever had in the past. Uh, I don't know, I I it's a double edged sword. It's it's really neat to see all the deer. I have watched so many guys booger an area because they put a camera right in the middle of where they're gonna hunt, and then they go in there three times a week to to look at their their you know, pull their cards and look at their their deer. And by time season gets there, they've had so much pressure they leave. And I know one little guy that I know we did that he couldn't understand where the deer went, but he came in twice a week to show me his pictures. So it's like, I don't know that part. I don't that part of it I don't like. But as conservative as I am about going in and busting them and bothering them beyond trail, trail cameras are really neat. But but there's something about the spontanity of of like, look at that buck I've never seen anywhere you're coming from. This is great, you know, as opposed to, oh yeah, there's wilbur. You know here it comes again. That's true. We we we recently have been just talking about that. How there there's something cool about seeing a unique buck or specific buck over and over. But then there's also something cool about that surprise in the mystery of a new deer showing up, and you kind of you can get some with one and you lose some with the other. But I guess it's all pretty cool and one way another. Absolutely, Hey, Sam, it's getting to that time of year where deer are in the process of shedding their antlers. Is there, you know again observing your dear herd, Is there a time that a majority of your dear shed or is there do certain dear shed at the same exact time every year? Yes, kind of all the above. I know certain dear will will shed pretty much at the same time. But but there again, you know, the amount of stress the animal has during the winter makes a big difference too. For a lot of the deer this year, they seem to be holding onto the antlers longer because you know, we just we just had such a mild winner that that they you know, they haven't had the stress, and what really happens is the testosterone level and that animal drops and that's you know, just like when they when they come out of velvet, it's the same thing for dropping the antlers. So when when they come out, you know, when they drop the antler there again they're impotent. Their testosterone level is way low and that's what causes that antler to separate and fall off. What percentage of the bucks are still holding by you uh, you know reports from from the guys around they're seeing bachelor groups and and maybe still have antlers. I had one the other day a couple of just a couple of days ago said that that probably it might have been sev deer in that particular group had had antlers. Um my antler bucks that I have just in one lot together, there's nine bucks and two of them are still carrying and they're both both little bitty gays, so you know they have they have any stress this winter. Yeah, It's interesting how how it seems to vary so much across region, the region, and even local areas too. It seems like in some parts of the country I'm hearing people, me and Dan, we're just talking a little while ago, a lot of bucks still holding, and then you hear about these other instances, whether lots of them have already dropped or dropping right now. And it's one of those mysteries that it's pretty it's pretty interesting how it all kind of works. Yeah, but it it is pretty much related to stress levels. If if we'd had a tiffer winter, I'm sure that we'd have more deer or we they ought to be about done by now dropping. Yeah, Sam, looking back over the course of your your years of hunting, Um, you know, we've talked about the fact that you've killed three bucks. I'm sure you've killed a lot of other great deer. Um. Is there anyone, whether it be one of the ones we've already talked about or any other, is there any deer that you've hunted and killed that you can kind of pick out as the most meaningful or the most memorable? And could you tell us why that why that is? You know, I can probably tell you more about the ones that have beat me for for being in my memory and burned in I got dude, nice deer that I killed that, Yeah, it was a great memory. It was a great hunt. But probably the most memorable deer that I've encountered are the ones that have kicked my butt. I'll never forget him. Uh, the one I told you I pulled the drag reg and had him, had him coming in. I mean just he was like coming in like a song. And I made a ninety degree corner and he went out across the CRP field. He missed the trail. And you know, I will never forget that deer as long as I live. I had another one that was I needed. I needed two steps and I this this buck was was if he was an aunt. He was. He was a mid one eighties, and it was a huge ten pointer. He was gorgeous. And I needed two more steps. And he stood down wind at me, and like I told you, I do a lot of things for my sin control. But he was down wind at me for for thirty five minutes, and he froze up and would not come in, and all of a sudden, you must have got just the right amount of wind, stuck his nose in the air, and I saw two little sniff sniff, and and he got rigid and he just he just kind of melted away backwards. I rattled that deer in I watched him come in for an hour and a half and I'll never forget. I went back to the truck. I took my hunting clothes off, put them in my toe, put my boot some a tout slammed them in the back of the truck, and I was I was so upset, and I got the truck to drive away. And now this is really stupid. And I sat there for a minute. I looked up and I went, thank you Lord, that was a great experience. I'll be back to get him tomorrow. And I never saw him again. Gorgeous dear. Wow, now you've had one hell of a hunting career, right, I mean you've had encounters with and and have killed dear that a majority of the listeners will never see in their entire life. And knowing you, I would say, and then this is just an assumption that if you never if you never shot another dear again, you would you would be happy. How much attention now is on your children and grandchildren. Your kids and your grandkids are the best party of life. Uh, don't get you're wrong about that. That one thing is I want and big ones Uh, I have it. I have My oldest grandson is an absolute killing machine. This kid is first of all, he is so smart. He's he's way smart than his grandpa. But he is, I mean he he is a sponge. Anything you tell that kid, he you know, he he digests it, he goes through it, and he understands it. And he and he he is one of the greatest hunters I've ever met. Uh. The kid is just incredible. And and he's got he absolutely has ice water in his veins. He's he has a killing machine. Uh just really and and eyesight of an eagle. I mean, he's just he really isn't amazing hunter and it's really fun to watch that. And and and all the kids aren't gonna hunt someone, you know, some of them don't have that interest. Some do. But but he's got it and he's and he's got the killer instinct for sure. Uh. Hunting with my son is is uh. You know. I burned him out at a very young age when he was twelve. It was cold and miserable and nasty, and he wanted to go home, and I'm telling him, we're deer hunters, we don't go home. Well, he went home that night he said, I'll never outwich you get. And he did that for a lot of years. And here in the you know, the last half a dozen years we've been hunting together and and this kid, you know, we we got Sammy and white tailed deer the same same spring. So he'll be thirty years old this spring. He grew up with deer taking care of him and and and he understands him. It's it's really a pleasure to watch him hunt because he knows that, he understands that, he can feel it. You can watch and it's it's just, you know, I really get pleasure watching him enjoy what what I one of the things that I enjoyed most of my life. It's just it is a big deal. You're right, Yeah, that must be pretty awesome. So I've got I've got one final question for you, sam Um. Given what you do for a living and where you live and kind of what you've been involved in, I gotta imagine you've met a lot of really, really good hunters, and I'm curious if if there is any common trait or quality that you've seen in these very best of the best hunters that you've gotten to know, what would that common trait be I had a gay and actually one of the one of the better hunters I've ever met. Uh, he he told me once and it was and it was a true compliment from him. But he he asked me, he looked me right now, and he asked me, says, do you know what's different between you and I and a lot of other hunters? And I as well, I'm shorter than most of them. No, no, not that, he says. He says, the difference and and and I'm not I don't know we're bragging myself this way, but the difference in him. Let's say that anyway. And we're sitting there talking about it, and he says, do you know what the difference is? And I said, any I got no idea. He goes, we finished the deal. He says, Lots and lots of folks are gonna have opportunities. He says, you have to finish. And I think that's probably probably true. Uh, there's lots of opportunity out there. But if you if you don't follow completely true. And that's one thing I'm telling telling you about my grandson. He finishes. I mean every time he's he's he you know, he's clear through the whole thing. So, yeah, you can do all your homework and do everything you need to do, but you gotta finish. How do you become a better finisher? I think that's experience. I think that's you know, spending the time and being there and and knowing it and understanding it and and you know, knowing what might happen next, or just just by a twitch of a tale. Uh, you know, all of the things. Just just yeah. I think you have to love it. You have to be part of it and eat it and breathe it, you know, just like we are, all of us. You know, we we did breathe it, sleep it. Uh or his Dan said he was obsessed by it. You know that that's all part of it. Yeah, very true, very true. The good news when it comes to that, Dan, is that you and me we've we've got hopefully plenty of time to to get better. Right. That's right? Amen? So U Dan, do you have any final question or thought for Sam? No? Just uh, I'll tell you what. Every time I come into the shop, because I I'm from Mount Pleasant and uh, I went to high school with one of his daughters, and uh, every time I go into the shop, This is a plug for Sam and his business, but one of the one of the greatest guys you'll ever meet. And on top of that, he knows what he's talking about for white tails. So if you get the opportunity to, you know, meet Sam Claura and shake his hand, I say, do it. Hopefully I'll be down there. Hopefully I'll be down there soon to do just that. Seems like there's a seems like you're absolutely right. So Sam, thank you so much for for taking the time to do this and and sharing all this insight with us. You're bet this has been fun. Yeah, we enjoyed it, and and good luck this year. Hopefully you can kill another giant. I'll be trying. Thanks Sam, and there you go. Episode number one forty one is a rap real quickly, though, I do want to thank our partners who have made this podcast possible so big thanks to sit to Gear, YETI Coolers, Ozonics, Redneck Blinds, Maven Optics, Whitetail, Institute of North America, Carbon Express and hunt Terra Maps. And finally, thank you all for listening. And I've actually got to meet a number of you at some recent events, and I gotta tell you the wire done audience. You guys are pretty legit, so thank you. Good luck out there scouting and shop hunting, and stay wired to hunt.

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