00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host Mark Kenyan. In this episode number one sixteen tay. In the show, we're joined by outdoor writer Steve Bartilla for an incredibly fascinating deep dive into the strategies and insights that have led his very impressive white tail success. All Right, welcome to another episode of the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by SI Gear. Like I just mentioned today, we're joined by Steve Bartilla again. He was with us early on in the podcasting years back in two thousand and fourteen. Um, but Steve's gonna come on today and talk about some really interesting things that I recently read about in his book Big Buck Secrets. UM. Steve is a long time outdoor writer, frequent contributor to magazines like North American Whitetail and Deer and Deer Hunting. He's the author of I think four different books, uh, including like I just mentioned, Big Buck Secrets, which really is a read one of my one of the most enjoyable reads I've had in the hunting world in quite a while. So that's gonna be the game plan. We're gonna dive into a whole wide breath of topics related to deer hunting, managing, deer habitat, improvements for deer public land hunting. Um, it's gonna be super interesting. But before we get to that really quickly, Dan, my co host extraordinaire, you've got a few updates right, some some new things going on your hunting world that we should probably touch on before we call. Steve worked. I planted and finished, well I shouldn't say finished, but I planted my very first food plot. Very exciting. You did it. That's awesome, man. My buddy has a like a writing lawn, Moore, it's a bigger writing lawn. More. Um, I hit up someone I knew who had something called a rhodo ho. It's um. It's not a tiller, but if you go over the ground enough time, it really tears the dirt up. I got that those Brassicas that you sent me. Um, I got those in. I got the line put down, and uh, and then I I don't I didn't have a cul to packer, so I just took that same um writing lawnmowre and wrote, drove over top of everything that I just planted, and uh, the only thing I have left to do is fertilize it. But hey, I got a food plot in. That's awesome. That's a good feeling, isn't it. I'll tell you what now. Granted I haven't checked to see if anything sprouting yet or if it's grown or anything like that, because that's kind of important. But when I was done with it, I felt like a man. I felt like, look at what I have done. And now the next thing. If you're at all like me, at least after after every food plot I plant, I just obsessively watched the weather now, just praying for rain. Have you found yourself doing that? Yeah? I did? Uh fortunately, uh the night that so I finished it last Friday, and the next day it rained. Um, and we've had like two three, two or three other rain storms since then, So the ground had moisture in it going in when I planted, and uh, we've had plenty of rain since then to help stabilize it. So I'm I'm pretty happy. What about what about your jungle that we talked about, It's still kind of a jungle. I cannot even tell you what a debaccle this whole thing has been. So on the bright side, I did get my on this property. I've got two main sections the food plot kind of three, but the pull back section is now planted and done, so I feel really good about that. I just happened to be back there working on some stands yesterday, I think it was, and it's germinating and looking good and lots and lots of little fresh breskas popping up, so that's in good shape. But on the front food plot, you know where I had that jungle issue, it's been a disaster. So I you know, right after I got back from out west, I went out there and sprayed it all down again. So I drove over it with a foe wheeler with a sprayer and sprayed all down. And then I call a friend who does some food plot stuff and asked if you'd come out with his brushag and MOA, Well, he wanted to do that. He can't do that, But then he said, because I ran it all over my fore wheeler, all the vegetation was knocked down too low for him to really do anything with them. More so he said, I can't do it. Right now. So that was last week. I'm like, son of a gun, So now what am I gonna do? So I then said, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna wait a few more days and then I'm just gonna rent a brushag on my own and do it myself. So two days ago, or maybe no yesterday, I got I rented a kind of self propelled walk behind brush cutting mower, you know, one of those things. Um and I rented it, drove into town, picked it up, picked it up, got a trailer, brought it all the way back to my property. And I try to get to start, and it won't start. Oh Jesus. And so he had to like an electric start. So I try to get the electric start. It won't start. I keep messing with it. They gave me a jump pack just in case, so I tried jumping it. I can't get to jump. So then I tried to pull start, you know, pulling McCord, trying to get to start that way. I can't get to start. So I spent like thirty five minutes trying to dick around this thing, trying to do all these different things that get to work. I'm looking on YouTube, like am I doing something wrong with the jump pack or some I'm looking at, like frequent issues with this brush cutter, all this kind of stuff. I still can't find anything online. I called back to the company, the place where I rented. I'm saying, hey, I don't understand. I don't know why it's not working. And the guy, who was kind of a dick, he's just like he's like, well, put it on the starter stud and I'm like, I did it. He's like, what You're doing it wrong. I'm like, dude, like, oh I was. I was. I was mad. You should have seen it got no gas in it. Yeah. My wife was watching for part of it, and like I was cussing and kicking and like piste. And then I call another friend who's better mechanical things than I am, and asked him, like what other things could I possibly do? Because I did not want to like have this whole thing like not bely get done. I had to get this stuff done. I went to the whole rigmarole, going in town and renting the stupid thing and dealing with these jerks at this place who made me feel stupid even before when I was picking it up. They're saying stuff to me like he didn't like the way I backed my truck up to the trailer or how I don't know, Like he just really got on my nerves. Were you wearing a flat build hat? No, lot I was wearing. I was wearing work boots, jeans, and T shirt. I looked at like a good old farm boy. Okay, good, because you know some of those guys, they're they're pretty judgmental, you know, honestly I was. I was like, I better make sure not to wear like my little Chaco mountain Man sandals. These guys will really I think I'm a joker. But even though I looked apart, they still must have thought I was an idiot because they treated me like at least um so I already was upset about that. Then the stupid thing won't work. So now I had a call back. I feel like an idiot because I'm calling back. He makes me feel like even more of an idiot. Now I'm even more piste. I spent another hour trying to figure out how to work it because I don't want to bring it back, and then said I couldn't get to work. And then they start right away and said, well, we just gotta start what we're doing. But long story short, I spent like two and a half hours messing around with a stupid thing. Finally was like, forget it, I'm going back demanding my money back and dropping this piece of ship off. And that's what I did. I went back. I was mad. I told me I wanted my money back. And then they went out there and we're gonna start taking off the trailer and they couldn't start either, So I felt better about that. At least. He's like, well, I don't understand why I can't get starting. I'm like, well, I don't even care right now. I'm just glad you didn't because I would have been really mad if you started right off the bat. But the moral of this story is that I still didn't get this stupid thing mode. But now my you know, Corey, my buddy Corey and I are going to try to go in on renting a tractor, mower and disk and he's putting in his first food plot, so we're gonna try rent it maybe tomorrow or the next day, go get his food plot fixed and then bringing up to my place and get this one done. And if I can do that with a tractor, that'll do the job real quick. So good luck with all that. Thank you, thank you. But I put up a new ground blind on this future food plot to cover south and southwest winds, which is something I've never been able to hunt this food plot on them before. But um but because I now know that holy Field is coming out to this food plot on those wind directions, or he was at least last year, I wanted to get something in there, so I'm set up for that. I tweaked a new tree stand on the back side of this farm based on some spring scouting, so I'm feeling good about that. Um I cleared out lanes for another tree stand yesterday. UM so works getting done, man, the final products are getting done. That's right. I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited for you. Thank you, sir. Guess what what two weeks from tomorrow, I mean west bounded down? No, dude, I'm sorry. One week from we geez, holy crap. One week from one week from tomorrow. Wow, you better get it together. And that crazy. I got some bad news on that front. Uh yeah, this is a bummer. So the main piece of public land that I was planning hunting out there right half of it was state land, half of it was block management land. Block management land is private land that's open to public hunting out there, um, and that every year that stuff has to get renewed. Well, August was the time frame that the new renewal status is updated in the books. And that whole piece of block management land I was planning on hunting is not in the program anywar this year. How many acres was that? Hundreds? It was? Um, the state land is just this little piece of river bottom ground, so it's cover. It's like betting cover. And then the block management next to it was all the crop fields and fence rows and fingers that go excuse me to go out into it. So that was my food source hunting. That was my evening hunting spot, and then my morning hunting spot was going to be on state land. So now I don't have the evening spot. All I have is the betting cover spot. Right, So now I'm kind of scurrying around trying to find another decent opportunity. I don't, I can't. I have not found another good food source that's open to the public in that area. That was my one good food source, So I might just be stuck hunting some of this transition and bedding cover and hoping I can get in there without spooking deer. I've got a couple of spots like that. Um, but I was really hoping I'd be able to have this lush green alfalfa field to huntover like you see most people hunting out in Fontana. Right. So that's, you know, one more obstacle to try to overcome. But you'll figure it out. You'll figure it out. We will, so it'll be fun. I can't believe it's starting away from now. So that said my friend, we we wanted to try to keep this intro kind of short because, um, we're gonna have a long, interesting conversation with Steve. So let's take a break now for a quick thank you and word from our sponsors at sick of Gear, and then we'll get Steve a call. So, as mentioned, we need to thank our partners at sick Ka Gear for their long time support of this podcast. And today's sick of story comes from sick employee John Barklow, and John shares story with me of an AHA moment that actually happened for his friends when they saw John having success on their shared deer hunting property while they were not. So here's John explaining exactly what happened. Not because I'm a better hunter by any means, but because I've been able to stay on stand longer. I've been the only one that ends up killing a buck the last three years. And so they've been asking me. They're like, how are you able to sit all day? You know, I mean, we we know you're you're stubborn. But but and I said, guys, it's it's not because I'm tougher than you by any means. It's because I have the right gear. And they're like, there's no way you can sit there in those few layers because I don't look real bulky, and they do. They've got seven layers, nine layers, and they're like, there's no way you can sit there with what you have on all day comfortable. And I said, well, it's it's happening. I mean the proofs into pudding, right. I mean not to say my you know, my feet or my hands on occasion won't get cold. But I am able to stay there, stay engaged in the hunt, um, stay involved in what's going on, and then be able to because I'm not balked up when the opportunity arises, able to shoot accurately. And so finally I got my one, actually both of them, I guests now um to convert, so to speak, and I got them some pieces. And so this last year they started wearing it. And I mean the first day they came out of the field and they're like, oh my god, I had no idea, Like I had no idea the advantage you had, and that advantage, well, believe it or not, both of his friends got shots at great Bucks this past year. Coincidence maybe, but maybe not so. If you'd like to learn more about the Sick of Gear advantage, visit sick of gear dot com. And now let's get back to the show. Alright, we're here now with Steve Bartilla. Welcome back to the show. Steve. Hey, thanks guys, and uh, it's socerely my pleasure to be here. Yeah. Well we um. We were just talking a minute ago about how much great feedback we got from our audience when you joined us back I think it was two thousand and fourteen. It was pretty early on in the show. I think it was episode twenty two, and now we're on like episode one, sixteen or seventeen or something like that. So I really want to get you back on here to talk about you know, a lot of the different things maybe that we touched on last time, but in greater depth, and a lot of new things too. Um. But before we getting me further, I think one of the things we touched on last time when we talked back in the summer of two thousand and fourteen was how busy you were with summer prep leading up to the season. And now here we are again, just before the hunting season, right here before we need to have everything done. I'm just curious, how are things going this year? Are you still scrambling around trying to get the last stuff done? Or do you feel pretty good this year with how things are set. I'm this is one of those rare and magical times where I'm doing pretty good. Wo yeah, I actually, uh, actually everything clicked into place this year so far. I shouldn't say any of this stuff, but um, because of course everything's going to fall to heck now. But ah here between is I think, you know, I do some long term management for a handful of of clients that pay need a man their grounds for him. So the growing weather this year in my areas of Wisconsin and Illinois and Minnesota has been frankly fantastic. He couldn't ask for anything better. Um, if in those areas, of course, weather changes from spot to spot, but in those areas, if your food pots aren't doing good this year, you might want to go pick up a book on food plots, because, yeah, it has been good. I actually just got out to check one of my food plots yesterday when I was doing some stand work, and um, that one is looking very nice. I've got another situation that isn't so good, so I still have some food plot work, just simply from dealing with issues with weeds unfortunately, but so far, so good. It's a good feeling. The thing I've come to grips with in more recent years is we're not cash c happing a few weeds. Weeds are deer feed grass I hate, but broad leaves I really don't mind him that much, So I know I used to. I used to sit there and obsess about my culver plots looking like golf course greens. We all if they've got a few weeds in them that they really don't care. I've milt on that a little bit and The other really nice thing is that this is going to sound like a lot, But I think I'm down to only about thirty stands left to prep, and that puts me so far in front of the game that does sound like a lett I'm sitting here getting all set to break up on I have less than thirty thirty stands left to do, and I'm like, well, wait a minute, that's not gonna sound that great to most people. But I was somewhere around uh somewhere flirting with two and fifty this year, so I'm pretty rilled. I'm sorry, but are these two plus stands stands that you hunt or are they for clients? Both? A lot? Quite honestly, a lot of them will never get hunted this year by anybody. Um, I'm a very firm believer when Mr Big is telling me that he is right to kill. I don't want to be able to get in there and or put a client in there without giving Mr Big any reason not to keep doing what he's doing. So I prep. I tend to well every year. I know darn well that over half the stands I prepped will never get climbed up into that year. But if I have a need not having to go in there during season and doing any scouting or any stand prep work. It's it's really a big deal. In my opinion, I think that gives me a heck of an advantage to the point where, yeah, when it gets to be well that the first day, when you're dealing with a whole bunch of stands, I don't know about you guys are actually young and in shape. Me I'm a fat, broken down old man. Um I get done with that well the next morning, after the first day, you'd swear somebody drove spikes through my upper thighs because then they just burned. So I can't say. I can't say that first day or two that I feel this way. But after the first day or two, once I start rounding into shape, I think the tradeoff is well worth it. You know, the extra work versus the ability to slip in without having to do a darn thing. That buck has no who you're there until it's too late. That that is a big, very important thing if you can pull it off. I'm going to get off on one tangent real quick, if you don't mind, I do the exact same thing on a on public ground, on public ground in the spring, I go in and prep all my stands I think I might hunt. Okay, now you can't leave. You can't leave these stands on the public ground I hunt. Um, you can during season, but not during the off season. You have to check the regulations obviously, because state ground is different than county ground, which is different than Cora engineer ground and so on. But even though I can't leave those stands in the woods, there's absolutely no reason I can't prep that tree, hang that stand, um, be ready to hunt, take it down with me. So now when it comes time to actually hunt on Halloween, I can get in there an hour and a half before first light and actually set up that stand because all I have to do is put the sticks up, slap the stand in, and I'm ready to hunt. Yeah. Definitely better than having to do all the prep right there in the dark before the hunt and make noise and do all all that kind of stuff. Being being overprepared, I think is never a bad problem to have, right two women. Yeah, So, so, Steve, one of the reasons why I want to get you back on here in the show was that I recently read your book, Big Buck Secrets, and it was really one of the most enjoyable hunting books I've read in a long time. I really took a lot from it, and I wanted to kind of dive into a handful of different concepts you talked about, and one of those first pieces that I want to touch on really relates, I think, right in line with what you're already talking about here. One of the things you touched on the very beginning was this concept of pushing the envelope. Can you can you walk us through what you mean by that when you say that one of your most important things to do when you're fair out your hunting strategies is to push the envelope. What does that mean for you? Well, for me, it doesn't mean doing stupid, risky things going back to the public for instance. Um, the idea of what would probably pop into most people's heads by pushing the envelope, there would be aggressively scouting, calling, rattling, all that type of stuff. Um, that to me, that's not being aggressive, it's handstringing yourself. Now you have to you always have to ask yourself, how did the bucks in these areas get to maturity? When you're talking about any heavily hunted location, they generally didn't get there by being stupid. Now they either got exceptionally lucky or they are very weary. So the last thing in the world I want to do is go ahead and go ahead and increase the risk of educating them to the fact that they're being hunted in this location. Getting off on a slight tangent, my whole approach to hunting public land is find the areas that no one else hunts. You do that, it's a me sanctuary, and that's where you're gonna find the majority of your mature bucks. Um. But if you go ahead and draw attention to yourself, no, you just is blew the gig because those bucks are so dang where it's not even funny. Um what I would applying it to that scenario. But what I'm saying talking about more about pushing the envelope is having three four stands already prepped well before season never starts. Now, in areas that if there's a good mature buck on that public ground, on those various public grounds that you know what, odds are early high, this is gonna be a great place to try to kill him because nobody else goes here. Okay, And then taking it a step further, having three four different public ground spots already scouted out and set up. You know, that's more along the lines of what I look as as pushing the envelope, stacking as many odds as a person reasonably rationally hand in their favor without breaking any rules or doing anything overly stupid. Yeah, so what are some of those different ways you can stack the odds in your favor? If maybe we continue with this example with the public land situation, you know, other than prepping numerous other locations, we are some of the other little things that you're paying attention to in that scenario to help you push the down great question. One of one of the most productive public public lands stands I had for about five years running was a strip of mature timber between two really thick clear cuts clear cut regrowth um. They were using this strip of mature timber as a funnel when they go through to their normal trenivels, Because I mean, a good way to look at things is if you think it would be a pain in the butt for you to walk through something with a stand on your back, you know what that that buck with that eighteen nine and sidespread it's probably a pain for him to walk through as well. So I mean, don't get me wrong, there's plenty of reasons why they'll go into those clear cuts. Oftentimes they live in the dark day, they're daylight core areas there with him. But when they're just trying to get from point day to point B, rather than walk through the middle of that thing, they're going to take the path release resistance. But that funnel area there, so you have natural funnel um just because of the thick stuff on both sides and the approximately hundred yard wide strip of mature timber. I don't know about you guys, but I can't cover a hundred yard wide strip of timber with a bowl. So what I did there each spring, I'd go in and I'd take up every darn decent size fallen branch I could possibly find, and I created a little blockade each spring and then fixed it up the the the following springs where you know what, I can't cover a hundred yard wide things, uh funnel, but I can cover forty yard white funnel. So I went ahead and blockaded it down to forty yards those little To me, hunting is all about stacking as many little things in your favor as you can whenever I think we are awesome, flat out awesome and getting out there and scouting our tails off, finding that one spot, that one spot that is this is the spot that I believe that I am going to interrupt Mr Big during legal shooting hours. We hang the stand, we walk away with their chest out. But I think we missed a critical step, and that is okay, this is the spot. My stand is up in that tree. We're so much farther ahead than we were before we did this. But now, what can I do to make this location better? That that tree? I kind of stick out like a sore thumb that a little bit, but it's the only tree that would work. So let's cut some branches and go ahead and attach it to the tree and make it so it has covered. Go ahead and put some on the back of the tree so we've got back cover. Maybe put a couple in the very outside of outside the platform so we had a little bit of front cover. Now all of a sudden, I can move and let's say sixt yards up from the stand, that trail splits. One goes off to the left and the other one to the right where we were that were covered, and for whatever reason, that's not why we need to set up at we need to set up where we are. We'll go ahead and lay a couple of branches across the trailer you don't want them to use. Does that mean every deer now is not going to use that trail hat? No, But all you need is the one deer that you're trying to kill to do what you want. And I think it's worthwhile. And then older control um targeting, targeting specific stands for a reason, not just because this is a really good stand, but this happens to be a really good stand for this phase of season, and we're in that phase of season now, so that's when I want to hunt it when the odds are the highest that that stand is gonna pay off, or something as simple as what we were talking about originally having a whole bunch of different stands up so that he's not supposed to be back in here, but twice I and my buddies have seen him back in there going through this area. And he's not supposed to be doing this during early season. He's supposed to wait until keep pre rout, but dangity's doing it now, So I'm gonna go kill him now to just being able to jump when the when the bucks are screaming, waving their arms saying, hey, idiot, come here and kill me. Having everything in place makes me look heckful out smartyr I've yet to see the big buck yell at me to have them come kill me. But I'm hoping that happens here soon because I would. I would love that situation. But it will, trust me, it will it take. I'm not gonna don't take what I just said wrong. That's not normal. It's not But there's been jeez six seven and bucks off the top of my head over the years that literally jumping up and down, waving their arms and saying, you idiot, I am ripe, And until you got to do is show up and not blow the shot inack. I've even had a couple of them where I did blow the shot, but still they had such a death wish I ended up taking. It's it's fun and humbling at the same time. I'll tell you what, I don't care what anybody out there says. You know, if they're sitting there trying to tell your listeners that they never they never make a mess of things. Out in the deer woods. They never blow shots. They never do anything stupid. Either they're I hate to use the strong language, but either they're a liar or they are a really bad hunter who just never had the opportunities for things to go wrong. I don't care who we are, how much of practice, any of that stuff. Things are going to go wrong out there. Sometimes part of what makes it sweet when they go right. Yeah, I think that's how me and Dan have made our little mark in the in the industry has just simply by the fact that we make so many mistakes. That might be the one thing we have going for us to this day. The most popular clip I have ever filmed is me absolutely blowing a gift wrap shot at a at about a hundred and sixty eight point that I was doing a tip for back in the days that before Double Bowl, Arch re sold for their television show on calling and rattling with decoys and ground block, and I had no no fantasy of actually calling anything in I look up in there, well, jeez, there's about a hundred and sixty eight point fifty yards away staring at me. Oh man, this guy. I wasn't gonna film any hunts of just filming an attempt. But why I gotta get this on film? How often you go ahead? How often are you doing a temp on calling rattling decoys and ground blinds and I actually get to kill a hundred and six? I mean, this stuff doesn't happen. I whoa, this is awesome. Here he comes, I'm filming, I'm filming, I'm filming, and all of a sudden, he's about ten yards away from the decoys. Okay, well, something's gonna go down here one way or another. Either he's gonna bolt or he's gonna crash that decoy, and then he's gonna both. I gotta shoot this thing, something that I wasn't planning on doing with a camera. So I shifted him to the back of frame. Come to folter off thirty yards Let the errify he was twenty duck the erro and I went but as but as an have a bonus. The farmer has spread manure on the alf alfa field the day before, so you got to watch that arrow skip forever across that field background. I want to head and turn the camera back on me. Picked up the range fighter and said new tip of the day. Range finders usually actually their purpose. That's brutal. I got a random I got a random question for you, Steve. Have you ever you know, you mentioned something about, you know, trying to you know, close the distance on that pinch point, you know, from a hundred yards to forty yards. But have you ever purposely went into an area to screw it up maybe or lay down scent or make noise or bump a deer in order to try to kill them in another location? I can honestly say I've never tried it. I think that's a great idea. And that's kind of what I mean by pushing the envelope when they taking this full circle back to the original question that I took us way off on attention on um. You know what, when I was a kid, and you guys are young enough that you can probably relate to this as well. When when I was a kid, I used to do all sorts of dumb things out hunting. You know, I'm not talking about dangerous things, but just dumb. There's no way that's gonna work everyone, So while they work, if you if you have nothing left to lose, you know, it's one thing if you're talking about managing your property and what you're trying to do is you're trying to you're trying to split your efforts as much between killing deer and raising them. That's a different story. But if you're just out there hunting and something isn't working for you, try something anything, because unless something changes, it's not gonna work. And that is something that I wouldn't I would applaud somebody for trying. I can't promise it's gonna work or not, but I would applaud somebody for at least trying. We've lost so much we have. We're in a time where we're both blessed and cursed with information. There's so much information on how you hunt mature dear or white tails period, Okay, that we tend not to try the off the wall stuff anymore. And that's that is something that I think is kind of being lost because I can't speak for you guys, but I'll tell you what I learned a heck of a lot more from my failures and I ever do from my successes. Very true, Now, Steve, was this you? I remember hearing someone mentioned this, and I can't remember it was you or somebody else, But have you ever used a trail camera, like set up across the field one of you, like maybe a flash camera or whatever type that you think maybe dear do get spooked by, and then that would force them to possibly come to your side of the field where you're actually hunting. Was that something you've done before? Okay, so I do that awesome? Um. I protect particularly doom with the with the red flash, the red flash or or standard flash cameras, because what I've found is you can never say when it comes to deer hunting. In my opinion, you can never say never or always. You know know that there's exceptions to everything. We're just playing odds more. Most often that red flash or white flash is not enough to actually spoop that buck off of that property on what what he does if he doesn't like it. Most of them, I would go so far as to say most don't care, okay, but there is that percent that they do not like that. It is not natural. It it creaks them out, for lack of a better term. Um, So they tend to just shift their activities away from triggering the camera. And yeah, exactly, there's a couple a couple of different locations them that popped to mind right now that I've got older red flash cameras set up on the opposite side of the food source one hundred, just to nudge those ones that don't like it a little bit closer to the stand. It's that type of thinking outside the box stuff that that I was getting to that I said, I think we've kind of lost I mean, we we've we're we preach so much that you can't spook dear. You can't do you spook dear. It's a kiss of that. Well, in some situations it is, but in some situations you can use it to your advantage a little bit. Now, these deer are far from turned inside out spooked, but you know they the cameras make them a little nervous, So let's avoid them. If they're going to avoid them, might as well put them in areas that we can't cover. That way, they concentrate in more in the areas we can. Yeah, it's right in the line with a whole. Like we were talking about stacking the odds, that's one more way to stack the odds for a specific stand, to push them a little bit closer in that location. Um. And another one of these odds stackers um that I've that I've heard you talk about in the past, is using scrapes or created mock scrapes to do the same kind of thing, placing mock scrapes near a tree stand location to just potentially give you a slightly better chance for a shot there. Can you talk about how you use that? Certainly? Um, what I what I do more often than not on on stands. We all know, including most of your listeners, there's lots of areas that if you set up on a wide open field, a wide open, fresh clear cut that hasn't reached end yet, know anything, wide open, odds are you're not going to kill Mr Big. He's not coming up now. In Iowa and Illinois and northern Missouri and certain areas of Wisconsin, sure you can, but it's not like that everywhere. Um, when I am hunting the edge of an opening, what I'll do is how nine times out of town, I'll go ahead and cut a tree that when planted, when planted with a post hole digger, um about three feet into the ground, is going to stick out like a turn in the punch bowl and have licking branches right at nose level. Of these deer scrapes are essentially the white tails world's equivalent to human billboards. They're meant to communicate information to as many other deer as you can. When that scrape tree happens to be sitting out a fifteen twenty yards into that wide open clear that wide open fresh clear cut, that meadow, that cloverfield at Alfalfa Field, you know, pick Earn Field. So I didn't feel anything open like that. It's like a neon sign saying come on over here and make a scrape because it's gonna stick out like a sore thumb. So it's one of those little things that you can do that again, just stack the odds the there's really no great trick to it. The one the things that would say is that if you're gonna use if you're gonna be hunting here long term, you know, not just this year. It's good if you use hardwoods simply because I'm lazy. I don't want to go ahead and plant this tree every single year if I don't have to. When I can get three to four years of use typically out of out of a hardwood versus a soft wood, um and then point those looking branches back towards the stand. So now when Mr Big comes into work and you know he's giving you a good shot angle and he is averting his attention away from you, so you don't have anywhere near as much of an issue. Are coming to folder taking your time settling the pin let in the air? Fly? Do you see any Do you see any um issue with a dead licking branch? So let's say you put one up in the summer or last summer. Even now, you still have this branch hanging out over there, Do dear prefer a live tree branch for this type of situation versus that dead one? Like I guess I'm wondering, should I be putting a hole in the side of this tree so I can put in a new looking branch every fall or something like that? Have I actually contemplated doing that for the simple reason that if I just have to put a licking branch on the side of this thing every year, um, that's less work for me. And when you're dealing with I mean I probably plant fifty or so scrape trees this here. Well, you do know what if I can eliminate and having to plant forty of them because I have poles out there with holes, and then I think that would be a good thing. I haven't ever tried that though. The only difference that I've seen in in usage from bucks is when you do something. When I did something stupid and actually trying to use the hawthorne tree, well't they didn't like rubbing up against the thorns that much. Um. I only made that mistake once, and I was desperate at the time for something and the only thing I could come up with, and it did not work. I completely wasted my time. The other thing is is the in general, who with within a reasonable extent at least the bush here that scrape tree is, the more activity it tends to tends to suck in over to it, to it just because it sticks over. But I've got I've got plenty a glut of pictures and videos of bucks working clicking branches that are three years old, dead as a doornail, and it doesn't seem to matter to them. It's good to know on this topic of scrapes. It reminded me of an article I've read of yours recently. UM. I think the article's titled something about wasting their time or talking about dear time wasters or something like that, and the kind of the gist of the article was some different things you can incorporate onto a hunting property to potentially keep a buck on your farm during daylight a little bit longer. And one of the things you mentioned, we're using scrapes or mox scrapes. Can you talk a little bit about this concept of time wasters and what people could possibly you know, what actual examples that of those that might be sure, well, that's that's a big one for people that both can manage their habitat you know, not everybody can. Overwhelming majority of people out there hunting probably are hunting like fin like I still do to this day to an extent, but like I grew up hunting, and that was getting permission from their uncle, getting permission from some neighbor lady, getting permission from god knows who. You go if there were a chains in your hand, and you probably won't have permission the next year. Um, but if you can control your ground, oh man, the games you can play are just almost obscene. Um. Something as simple as okay, during the off season, you're out there scouting. You figure out that Mr Big is betting on this point, and this point is one of the best things of person One of the things that helped me most in my evolution as a hunter is to get away from just being content with finding sign but trying to understand why that buck did this here? What are the odds of him doing it again? Now? Um asking the why questions when you're finding these beds in the off season, squat down in the darn things. Squat down and look around and ask, Okay, I have all the places that Mr Big could bet, why is he betting in this location right here? You do that, You do that even ten times, and the pattern starts to emerge. Now you see that they like. They like either being on the very edge of the thick, nasty stuff that one jump, they're gone, or they like to have a very wide range of view, a very wide field division, so they can see virtually everything that's going on around him. And then I'm not saying that the bucks always changed their betting locations based on wind direction, but when that wind happens to be coming over their backside, now now nothing's sneaking up from behind them, and they can see everything down below. Man, he's he's bullet proof. And because of that, you'll find that mature bucks on the property tend to bet in the same place as year after year after year after year after he's dead, But here comes another one year after year after he's dead, But here comes another one after year after year, because of all these advantages that that location gives them. Okay, so so you find that look, you know, and getting off on actually explaining a little bit better. Here, really easy way to determine between stack. The odds of being right in determining whether this is a family group betting area or a mature buck is just playing the number and the size of the beds you find a bunch of you find three or four big beds, a couple of small beds. Odds, are those nuts your family group? There you find one or two big beds that are about the same size, especially if, especially if there happens to be a rubber scrape in the area, and then there happens to be a really big track in that bed, odds are pretty darn good that was a mature buck. But so once you start putting this stuff together and you figure out that I can't swear I know what buck is going to be betting on this point this year, but I can almost guarantee it's gonna be one of the big boys, because that has so many advantages. Now our food source is over to the west. If I go ahead and create about a ten yard wide opening, and I can do it with a chainsaw, bolldozer would be awesome, But I can do it with the chainsaw, no problem. We can have stumps. We can go ahead and top seed some old cereal rye or some clover right on top of the dirt, and it's going to grow. As I said to begin this, remember we're not cash cropping or just trying to give the deer a little bit of food. So I'll go ahead and create a little ten yard wide uh strip going halfway back to that bedding area. Then do a little edge feathering, which is hinge cutting about a five yard band on either side of that. So now we get more sunlight in here. When I'm cutting off those trees, I might as well cut them in about chest level. Cut them off that way, the ones that are in the plot, because now I can go ahead and I can nail a bunch of licking branches on that. So he's going from that point now down that trail working as scrapes going out to the neighbor's farm field. I can get in there about the whole fifty yards off the line. Hopefully those scrapes slowed them down enough so now he's coming past me ten minutes of shooting light left, which is I'm still golden. But by the time he gets over to the neighbors, when he jumps that fence to get out on that field, it's pitch dark though it's Those are the types of little games that I play a ton on the managed grounds. Um, the more in general, the more time you can get him to waste, especially when you're trying to raise box that they're not power bocks, but we can't help them get to maturity. God love the people that got them being in some serios as I possibly could be. God loved the meat hunters in the world. This stuff is supposed to be fun. They have every right to do that. But on my side of the fence, I have every rate two to swave Mr Big from being over there during legal shooting light. Having every time he works one of those scrapes, he's wasting anywhere from thirty thirty seconds to five minutes. And so often, I mean, you guys know as well as I do. So often the difference between success and a thrilling close call is nothing but seconds. And if I can waste fifteen more minutes of his time on my ground, I am that much further ahead. And along those lines, some more of the things that I do is I try to on my managed habitat, I try to divide it up. Rather than if I've gotten eighty, rather than go ahead and put one main food source in the place, I'm gonna put four, I'll put four water sources on the place. I'll go ahead and try to make it so that I have at least four different areas of thick, nasty cover that the doughs like to bed end. So now when Mr Big he doesn't even live on our place now, he lives over on he lives over on the neighbors. But he's coming through to check dolls. Now he doesn't just have to check one food source, one water hole, and one bedding area. He has to check four. And when he has to check four, he's wasting more time on our ground, obviously giving us a better chance of killing him. I hope that kind of sort of answer to your question a little bit anyway. Yeah, I know that's perfect, and it's it's interesting. Everything everything falls under this common theme of finding ways to stack those odds. And as we were talking about this, another thing that I've heard you talk about in the past came to mind again, which was kind of related to this whole habitat topic. If we have the ability to manage habitat, or to at least control who hunts our property, we can implement sanctuaries. Can you talk about how you think about sanctuaries, how you use them? Thanks who, I will tell you right now. For as much press, for as much press and coverage on TV that food plots get, nothing, nothing makes a difference for more habitat out there than sanctuaries. And it doesn't cost you a cent. It's the entire approach that I take to the hunting public ground. You find those pockets that nobody else is going, and guess where you're finding the mature dear. Guess where you're finding the most dear in those pockets here are no different whatsoever. Excuse me, then our dogs at home in that we can train them to accept virtually anything, and we can train them to fee year virtually everything. And every single time we're going out in the woods hunting, whether we're trying to or not. We are training deer now most often we're training them to do things that are against our interest. Is hunting in hunt as hunters, you know, in the sanctuaries are the exact or verse. We're training them to do what's in our best interest. The first thing I do is I go, well, first question, what is a sanctuary a sanctuary? If you're going to use the purest definition a sanctuary as an area that we never step foot in, period, end the story. I'm not a purist, okay. I I am scouting these sanctuaries during the off season every year. I will even put some tree stands up in those sanctuaries with the idea that you know, going back to how many stands I hang, going back to the idea that I'm not hunting here. The only way I'm hunting here is if I have pictures of Uster Big. I know Mr Big is living on this ground. I believe he's living in my sanctuary. You know. By how do you know? You know? Because his picture at the food source every night happens to be between a half hour to an hour after dark, you know, And from the direction he's coming in, and he's coming in from the heart of this eighty odds are he's not walking all the way across the eighty to get here. He's probably better back in that sanctuary there. When I just plane cannot get it done from the outside of the sanctuary, I will go in and hunt it once or twice the entire year, going well before first light, and I'm planning on staying all day. Are killing one of the two? Um But as I said, I'm trying not to. I'm trying not to go into that sanctuary, and I'm not going to go into it for any other reason except for for on the off chance of hunting or uh tracking a dear during season. Okay, So to me, a sanctuary is essentially an area that I try to stay out of during season as much as humanly possible. Um So, then how do you go ahead and define a sanctuary? Well, I think one of the biggest keys that a lot of people miss is the natural human reaction as hunters is you want to get as deep in the cover as you possibly can. Hey man, that's where Mr Biggs living. That's where I'm gonna go. But how the heck do you get in there without alerting every single dear in the property that you're hunting them, How do you get out at the end of the day if you're going to hunt the stand numerous times. Now, if this isn't just a one shot deal, that is every bit as important as the individual hunts, because far too many people go ahead and explode their property before before the rut even gets close, you know, which is why a lot of quote unquote experts suggests a person shouldn't even start hunting until the rut. It's because they're trying to train the deer on their ground that they're safe. With a sanctuary, you can hunt that property hard the entire season and still get the advantages. The way you pull it off is anything that's high impact for getting in, getting out or hunting right off the bat is a sanctuary. In my mind, what I try to do is I try to design properties so that they vary from property property, but in general, so I can go ahead and hunt the outside effectively in a low impact manner and leave most of the deer cover just playing alone, just going to it during the off season, do a little improvement to improve the cover that type of stuff, but during season, you know, you don't have to worry about me coming in there. You're safe here while the neighbors, and this is a huge key everybody. Most everybody complains about the neighbors. If they only hunted like me, if they were only good hunters, if they only would have let that buck walk. Well, you know what, those hunters, when you have a sanctuary, they're your best friends because they're trashing their ground. They're trashing their ground, and it does not take deer long at all to figure out I'm not being disturbed over here. So as season progresses, your deer numbers are actually climbing the more and more your neighbors are hunting. And at the same time, you're training them that, you know what, it's safe to move around on this property during the legal light. Just like those public ground bucks. They realize that within that same short of that area that's blocked off by that nasty ravine that nobody's willing to cross. Over there, I can move just find during legal shooting hours and don't have to worry about it. I just can't cross that ditch because over there, I move around during legal shooting hours, I'm smelling and seeing people like crazy, We're doing the same thing on our properties. We're designing these areas that the bucks in the doors and fawns all feel safe in, all are willing to move around during legal shooting hours, and then trying to set it up so we have little little staging plots right along the edges. Count because there in that little half acre opening in the middle of the woods. Mr biggas fire more willing to step out during the legal shooting light, especially when it's right on the edge of this area that he's never disturbed him. I got a quick question, is that do you have a different sanctuary for different wind directions? Because I have a property that a majority of the food is on the south side of the property and been depending on the wind direction depends on where on the property you know they bed. So, Um, if I was to establish a sanctuary on one part, do you feel that the deer would then come to that sanctuary, even though the wind may not be right for them to bed in that in that area. It's good you're stacking the odds for that to happen, But so many things, this is a really difficult part. I just got done, if you don't mind me giving myself a plug. Um, I just got done writing a Habitat Habitat and Deer Management book UM that came out this past spring. It was the most challenging writing I've ever done in my life. I want to have done this type of consulting work for right around just over twenty five years. But every single property is different. So so making blanket statements about how this is how you do it and pacific terms, I'll play it what. It's tough because on your ground, on your ground, it is entirely possible based on what you're saying. Heck, it's probable that the best thing you can do is that they have they have numerous that your your deer have numerous areas on that property that they prefer betting in a lot of properties don't. As a matter of fact, most properties, you've got one or two spots and actually where the deer really like to bed, and they're going to probably be bed there no matter what the wind is, because they don't have other alternatives when they do. In a situation like that, I tend to. I can't say I've ever set up specifically set up sanctuaries based for a given wind, but what I do is, man, I am always thinking about wind direction when it comes to entrance, hunting and exit, and what I want to do as much as possible is I want my access to be along the property line, and I want my orders blowing into the neighbors when I'm heading over to the stand. I want my orders to be blowing into the neighbors while I'm on stand. I want my orders blowing towards neighbors when I'm leaving to go back to the truck. And by taking that approach, you're essentially setting up sanctuary's based off the wind direction because you're not hunting these other areas when you have those various winds, if that makes any sense at all. Right, interesting, So speaking about betting areas, that brought me to another really interesting thing I read about in your other book, This Big Buck Secrets, where you talked about some interesting ways that you can utilize knowledge about dope family groups to improve your hunting. It's particular you talked about how you can key in on dominant versus sub dominant doe groups during certain parts of the year. Can you talk about that, because that's something I've never heard about the for and I thought was really interesting. Sure, and I should say, um, if you don't mind before I answer that the book that you're referring to, Big Buck Secrets is actually the it's actually the final of a three parter, or it's wrapping together. It's supposed to go ahead and wrap the three part series together with a nice bowl and tie it up and make it look all pretty. Um that what you're describing there is not going to work everywhere. It's not if you've got low doll number, if you've got low deer numbers, the habitat itself is not stressed. If you have healthy habitat, you know what, your your family groups on this property are not stressed. But what ends up happening when you're dealing with high deer numbers, and then this happens whether you're dealing with medium, low, any type of deer numbers period um, is that there's a hierarchy to doe groups that is very similar to the hierarchy that occurs within buck groups. We've all heard about the dominant buck. That buck, that man, he strolls any and everywhere. All he has to do is give a sideways glance to the competition. They stuck. They stick their tail between their legs and go running for the hills. Now, um, the same thing plays out in a weird way in the dough here in the dough groups. In that the healthiest doe groups out there with especially if they've got a little bit of an attitude, are the most dominant dog groups out there. They're the ones that they have the prime betting spot because they'll drive the competition away. They have the prime the prime food source because if it's small, they're gonna go ahead and drive the other dog groups away. You know, Um, I should actually back up dough groups. Family groups are nothing more generally speaking, they're nothing more than a matriarch doll. You know that that that great grandmother type, all her daughters, all her daughters otters, you know, and so on down the line. And that there's in high deer a young high deer number areas where you don't have a lot of hunting pressure on the doll groups. I mean, it's not uncommon to see a family group of more than twenty dolls along with their nubbing bucks and sometimes even year and a half old bucks. And now so picture picture property with a whole bunch of deer, a whole bunch of different dog groups. The healthiest, most aggressive dog groups are the dominant ones, the least healthy, smaller, more passive dog groups are the more submissive ones. So then throwing over population where the habitat is being absolutely destroyed by deer, which is more habitat than we give it credit for. Quite honestly, Uh, well, your lower wrung dog groups, they aren't getting the nutrition because they don't have the best betting areas. They don't have the best feeding areas. They're picking up the scraps are left over. Okay, Now you have to tie one mother factor into all this, and that is timing of breeding. Okay. In general, I am a very strong believer in photo period. I do not believe in the moon theories in any way, shape or form. And I can cite all sorts of studies that have been done on um road kill fetal tissue where they back dated and you know what, the majority of the does year after year after year after year after year, are getting bread in the exact same amount of time according to those studies, regardless of the moon. But what does play a role into individual dear individual dough ester's timing is the health of the dough. The health year that prime age breeding dough is higher the odds are that she's going to come into estris early. Okay. So because the dominant doll groups have the best of everything, they tend to have the healthiest dolls, and they also happen to produce the first estra stoles of the year. And then we can take it another step further and throw in the fons. Fawn breeding and anywhere in the continental United States occurs virtually every year, except for on very very very horrifically bad weather years. You can deal with the up of Michigan. You might be talking five on a normal year. You deal with Iowa, you deal with Kansas. You're talking jeez, you're talking as much as of the doe fons will breed that first year. The timing on their breeding is based on them meeting physical and physiological thresholds. They that their body must mature well. Who tends to give birth to the dose first or the fonts first each year? The healthy dose that got that got bred earlier in the season, So they also tend to be the ones to have the dough fons come into estrus first each year. So you can't if you can follow I mean that that's a I know, that's an awful lot to put together and follow. But if you can connect those dots, you can see why that cold stretch hits on October in the Midwest. If I want to hunt, if I want to hunt the dough betting area, that's not a bad time as long as I can go ahead and find that dominant dough that dominant dough group's betting area. Now it's getting towards the end of the rut, that's a really nice time again to go ahead and target that dominant family group dope atting area because they probably have some dough fonts coming intestris in between the early and And also it's not a bad time to go ahead and hit up your least dominant dog groups because there tend to have the most unhealthy dolls the ones that tend to come intastris later the period in between. Flip a coin because you've got no clue, but it is a way to just again stack the odds a little bit in your favor in very specific situations, if you happen to be hunting ground that's overpopulated, if you happen to know observe your dear enough to figure out what your dominant dough groups are. It's not really hard when you watch them. Maybe one one's chasing the other off that food plot. Odds are the ones running are not the dominant ones. But if you can put all those things together every once in a while, it can't work for you. So just just to make sure I've got this right to Cliff, note it. We're talking on keen in on the dominant dough family groups at the early stages of the rut because we're likely going to get that first don estres, and then again towards that second rut time period because those are most likely the groups have a fun that's coming into estus. And then we'll key in on potentially those least dominant dough groups maybe at the later talent of the rut when those deer are just coming into esters, and then like you said, during peak breeding anything is that? Is that right? I get it all straight there? That is it? In a nutshell? Yeah? You and you did a much finer job playing tonight. I just had to make sure that I had it straight in my head too. Um. But it's it's f it's a fascinating it's a fascinating idea and it makes a lot of sense. Well, I'll tell you what, trying to truly understand what makes the deer tick. To me, there's nothing more fascinating in this world. I know. I know most people would think that's boring as heck you guys, we don't. Hopefully most of your audience doesn't. But that, to me is the most fascinating part about all this stuff. And when I keep coming back to over and over and over, the more complicated I try to make this stuff, keep it simple, stupid. They're just animals. They're just animals that mother nature has hardwired to try to maximize their odds of survival. Um, if you look at it that way, all of a sudden, a lot of things start making a lot more sense. Yeah, so true. Continue on the rut topic. Another thing that I've I've heard you talk about in the past a little bit is how there's this commonly held belief that during the rut, you know everything you know about your local deer goes out the window and it's chaos. But I've heard you talk a little bit about how there is actually you can sort of pattern deer during the rut, contrary to popular belief. Can you can you elaborate on that certainly. The first thing I have to say is my definition of patterning is not the same definition of a lot of people that are trying to make themselves look cool. I do not pretend to know what any deer is doing seven period. My idea of patterning a book, a book, or any deer is that I've got a pretty good idea that there's a pretty good chance they might be doing this each day, or not necessarily even each day, but on a somewhat regular basis. You know. I I don't pretend to know where a good number most of the box that I shoot. I don't pretend to know where the heck they've batted. Now. I think there's a pretty good chance it was back on that ridge back there, off that point, because just about every year I have a good buck betting back there. But I can't, I can't swear to it. I am not. I do not sit there and think that when these people are talking about patterning bucks out there, that they got they know what these here are doing. Bolown. I have been I actually started on the consulting end, consulting for outfitters, and I can't tell you how many times TV crews, you know, filmed segments about how they had this buck pattern cold. They knew to set up here because of this, that and the other thing. And it's really weird because they didn't even know the buck existed until the night before when the outfitish shoot showed him pictures. The amount, the amount of twisting that goes into what patterning Endeared really is, it blows often blows my mind. And I not sound like too much of a jerk here, but quite frankly, I think it's ego driven. You look at me, I know so much more than everybody else. Well, I don't, Okay, what I do is I can figure out that I'm getting this buck's picture here half hour after dark on a consistent basis. Now he's coming from this direction. He's probably betting over there, and this is part of this food source right now happens to be his primary food source. Now, that to me is patterning a book. It's not anywhere near as glamorous or or detail detail driven as a lot of people painted. So what actually opened my eyes to this is over the years, you know, having so many cams out for various clients. You know, every once in a while you happen to have a dope betting area that's not that high impact to get into. So you set up a video. So you set up a camera on that scrape that's on the edge of it, and huh, three or four times a week during the rut, I'm getting this one box picture either passing or working that scrape on the down one side of that dope betting area. Isn't that a pattern? He's on somewhat of a consistent level. He's checking this dough betting area. Why again, keep it simple, stupid, What's what's the buck trying to do during the run. He's trying to breed as many doughs as he can, which isn't that many. But you know still that that's his mission to find breed dose and not get killed in the process. If if you let me, let me turn this around on you for a second. Mark you're married, correct, Let's pretend you weren't. Don't answer this question. It is a trap pretty much, yes, but but let's pretend you weren't married. You are very familiar with the area you live in. You desperately, desperately want to find a girlfriend. Are you going to go into New York to try to find one? Well, I go to New York before the nearest town here. That's the reasons. Well, okay, we're pretending you're not married, so your wife's relatives aren't gonna kill you. But what a person is going to do more often than not, because again, as I said, well, all this stuff, we're playing odds. We're playing odds and tendencies that by definition means their exceptions. Every once in a while, Mark is going to head to New York, but for the most part, he's going to go to the areas that he knows their girls at. And there's nowhere that he knows that better than in the area he lives. Why is the mature buck going to be any different? And that mature buck, remember this is their home range, is their house in their yard. Okay, they have a darn good idea of what's going on in general in that home range. Could somebody walk through your yard with you knowing? Sure they could? They set up a tent in your yard though, and you're gonna figure it out. So so Mr Big has a really good idea what the doe groups on within his home range are doing during virtually I mean, I'm gonna say during any time during the twenty four hour period. I don't mean he knows every second of that twenty four hour period where that one dough is, but he knows that during the daylight hours, odds are pretty high that she's gonna be back at her bedding area. So if he's going to go ahead and try to maximize his breeding opportunities, doesn't it make sense for a for him to stay home because he knows where these girls are here, he's the dominant he's either the dominant bucker probably if he's mature, one of the more dominant bucks on the property on most grounds, Okay, So he doesn't have to worry overly much about people feeling those girls. And he knows where they are, where odds are the highest, where they will be during the daylight, where they'll be in early morning, where they will be in early after in late early evening, right before dark. He has a pretty darn good idea where they're going to be after dark. So doesn't it make sense for him to check those locations when he's not with the dope, And if it does, isn't that him following a pattern? Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I can tell you that from personal experience, there are a I would say over f of the I'll say right around of the mature box on the various properties I managed for clients. UM. Part of what they pay me for is to learn as much about what they're doing as possible so they can take advantage of that hunting UM, I'd say right around half of them if they have a pattern outside the rut. Early reason. If they have a pattern, I don't know what the heck it is. I can't figure it out during the rut. A pretty decent percent of those bucks I can't figure out outside the rut, all of a sudden, their actions make all the sense in the world and are pretty darn predictable in some regards. In some regards, as long as you use the loose definition of patterning that I do. UM, I'll tell you what, it's easier to pattern a lot of bucks during the rut than it is outside of it. Yeah, as you know exactly what they're after and you know where they're going to be, right all right. I think it comes down to, like you said, maybe how people are defining it, because I mean, so many people talk about well, I'm going to focus on this betting area because I know bucks are going to be, you know, checking out for dose. Well, you're saying that you are hypothesizing that a buck is going to be visiting this area based on past experience or based on what you know, so essentially that you know you are based on this decision on what you believe to be a pattern. Just people aren't calling it that, um, but but there really is something to it. Or and with those people you just described, if they don't realize is they just patterned that? I mean, if they know there's this hundred forty eight point, which I'll tell you what if you got a hundred eight point, that's a pretty darn good I don't care who you are, UM, But they know they have a hundred and forty eight point that spends some time on this property and they're actually going back there to set up on that dopetting area hoping he'll come by. When he comes by and they kill him, they had that buck pattern better than I'm going to venture to say, at least of the quote unquote experts that are talking about patterning gear. Yeah, Dan, WHOA, what do you got next? Do you think when it when it comes to these you know, all all these does um do you think that people should be paying more attention to where those are, let's say in late October, as opposed to where buck sign is popping up. I think you'd better be paying at least as much attention to it. That's a great question. I let mean this will probably put in two perspective my thoughts on dolls. When I'm laying on improvements for on for my clients on private ground and we're talking betting, I never mess around with buck bets. I'm focusing on doll bedding because if I know where they are, I'm gonna know where Mr Big is, where I can kill Mr Big during the rot. You know, I I think that you. I think a person does get a bad rap frankly from US hunters. They are looked at by too many. I think they're looked at is nothing but past. I'll tell you what. Those dolls, especially the ones they are living that have daylight core areas on your ground, they're your best friends because they're telling they are dictating what Mr Big is going to do as long as he's not with a doll. Another getting off on a little I'm going to go so far as to say almost useless, dear, tribute something that something that I believed everybody talks about how dolls are are leading bucks around during the rut, when you're talking about a mature buck once he's crawled her. I do not have a shredded doubt in my mind whatsoever that she's not the one dictating movements to her. To him, he's dictating her movements. He's pushing. He's the one who in Iowa's pushing her out in the middle of that pick cornfield. She doesn't want to be there. He wants her there because he can see any type of competition coming up and try to steal her away. You know, Um, I've actually one of one of the bucks. I'm looking at this hanging on my wall as we speak. You know, was you know, crawl the dough and she wanted to go up the point he wants. Thankfully, he wanted to get a drink water. I watched to go around or three different times tiner in the side and push her down to that water hole, which I was very thankful for because my stand was covering that water. So, speaking of um, of this idea, you know, we just talked a little bit about understanding what these bucks are gonna do during the rut, and you know, understanding what Mr Big wants is the dough and everything like that brings me back to this whole idea. And I've heard you mentioned this this phrase. I've heard you say a lot quote unquote listening to Mr Big, and I think you know what that means is is how to pick up the clues that these bucks are giving us. You know, like you said a buck, you know the occasionally these bucks are jumping up and down, waving their arms saying kill me. How do we get better are at listening to Mr Big? I guess what do you mean by that? And how do we get better doing that? I think it. I think it really starts by just asking yourself, by first understanding the rod cycle. I mean, you've got early seasons, You've got what is kind of a misnomer in the October lull. What that really is, more than anything, is based off of pressure. You know, we're a lot of a lot of both seasons either starts middle of September or October one. So the woods goes from being relatively peaceful. Let's face it's not that much fun being out in the woods going for a walk in August. You know, just for the heck of it, because well there's a lot of bugs out there, a lot of bugs and a lot of thorns that like to scratch you, um, and you can't stands hot and sweaty and gross. So for most of the summer and early or late summer, these bucks that they're left pretty much alone, these deer left alone. Know if they're now all of a sudden, both season starts and he got all us yard ages running around the woods. Now that tends to push bucks a little bit more nocturnal because their testosterol levels are low. All they're trying to do is fatten up for the rut. You know, I don't have a reason I have to move a lot, So if I get pressure, I'm not gonna I'm gonna move even less. Then you get into the scrape phase, you know, the scrape phase of season. What are bucks trying to do, well, they're advertising their presence. They're advertising their presence partially to dose but mainly the other bucks. What they're trying to do is they're trying to make it so that when he finds when Mr Big finds that dough a couple of weeks later and in November, and along comes, along comes as nearest competitor, He's already send a message to him, don't mess with me, buddy, I am at the top of the food chain, and I will hand you your butt on the platter. Because he doesn't want to fight. He really, I really firmly believe. Longer I do this, the more firmly I believe. Of the mature bucks, they are honest, most of them. There's gonna be exceptions. There is always that one guy in the crowd that wants to fight anybody over anything. But the majority of them they don't want to because that is man. That is nasty stuff. You know, if you ever really want to get an idea of how much force is expended when two mature bucks go at it, just go ahead and take take some three and a half year old shed you found one year. Try to break off a time the amount and this is I'm talking about just on a three and a half year old buck. You know, snapping a tying off at the main beam is not easy. It takes a tremendous amount of force. Now take that four and a half five and a half year old buck and imagine what it takes to break that entire that entire beam is right or left beam off of his head. You know the amount of force. It's like it's like going ten rounds with with Mike Tyson. I don't care if you win, you lost because he hits you and it really hurt. And now you're going into the breeding season where you're gonna if you're a mature buck, you're gonna average losing anywhere froment body weight. And as soon as the breeding season is over, guess what you're in winter and even in even in a Missouri or a Iowa or a Kansas, that's the seasonal low point for food. So now I've got to go ahead and try to recoup my body during the during the hardest point there is that that that nature throws at me. Okay, by going through the right cycle and understanding it, ask yourself, what is it that Mr Big wants during that time early season October Lawley wants to be left alone fatten up for the rout. You know, during the peak scrape phase. He wants to advertise, advertise, advertise his advertised steak out, his his notch in the buck hierarchy. Then you get into the breeding season itself, what does he want. He wants breathing opportunities after the breathing phases over. What does he want? He wants food. He wants food to try to recoup his body. You know, when you when you grasp that concept, not all you have to do is ask yourself, what does Mr Big want today? He wants food? Okay, what's my best food source that's closest to where I've been getting his pictures or where I've seen him or where I've seen his sign. Okay, that's it there. Well, kind of telling me that that's probably where I should hunt today, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, Now that's that's what I'm That's what I mean by listening to Mr Big and the other the other Big way is okay. So, and this is where information overload can kind of get you in trouble. So we know, we know that the best odds are killing a buck on a scrape is to wait to that last week. That last week it peaks scrape phase because his testosterol level is skyrocketing them. And by waiting, we haven't given any clues that he's in danger working that scrape. But now all we do is slip up in the stand and our odds are best to kill him. And yet that's what I should be hunting. I should be hunting that scrape that's back by that doe betting area, in an area he feels safe. But I just swapped chips and man in the last two weeks. I've got the bucks picture that I want to kill four times or hey, let's say five times during legal shooting hours out on that alfalfa field. Well, I'm gonna listen to it, and I'm gonna go hunt that alfalfa field, even though that's not the best place to be. Supposedly we're peaks. Great, he's all about right now, he's all about advertising his presence and all that stuff. But he's telling me that, geez, these four pictures, four or five pictures in a fourteen day period during legal shooting light, that's good odds. He's telling me to go over there and kill him. So I'm gonna I'm gonna listen, even though even though my own general philosophy is telling me that's not where I'm supposed to be. I'm supposed to be or well, let's make this even better, it's during the rut, it's during peak breeding phase, and there he is out in the middle of that that alfalfa field, you know, eating day after day. Well, I don't care that he's supposed to be chasing does. He's telling me that's where I gotta be, and I'm gonna listen. So you mentioned there another topic that I want to touch on, the kind of naturally transitions. I think perfectly here if we're listening to miss to big for paying attention to these different tendencies, whether it's observed or it's based on what we understand about what dear typically are doing that year or that time of year. I think the next most important decision is not necessarily well, first you need to know where, but next is when do I strike this idea of when is the right time to go in there, because I think, you know, as you've alluded several times, it's really important to keep the pressure low so they are there in present and moving normally, and then strike when the time's right. So this is something we always we like to talk about this with a lot of our different guests, and I'm always curious to hear each different person's perspective on which factors that they pay attention to the most. You know, do they really pay attention to temperature or baro metric pressure or moon or all these different things to help them decide when to strike. Can you tell us what factors matter to you? How do you make that decision? The primary that's the factor that's gonna trump everything for me every single time. Is any type of pictures or visual sightings. If I'm seeing, if I'm seeing, I don't care. Here here's a good example, um buck that I killed probably four years ago. Now, okay, firearms season it just ended. Okay, um I'm doing. I'm doing a camera swap chip swap here in the morning of the day after firearm season. Mature bucks are not supposed to be moving during daylight. Now, they just went through the war. But one of the cams that I swapped, it's got, it's got pictures in the last we'll say, the last ten days, and had pictures of one mature buck out in at six different times during legal shooting light, including the day before. Man, I'm going. I went ahead and as soon as I saw that, I threw a ladder stand in the back of the truck. I went and set it up and I and here it is the day after. This is an ill and a way. Um, the day after second shotgun season, which puts us in December, it is eighty some degrees with a thirty mile wind. You're not supposed to kill a buck on it. In situations like that, on an open clover field, it's not supposed to happen. But I didn't tell him that when he came out a half hour before dark and I shot him. You know, if if visual observations or trail cameras are telling you something that trumps everything for me every single time, you know after that it's matching the phase of season with what they want, and what stands do I have that are ideally suited for that phase of season. If it's a crappy weather day, you know, it's hot, it's windy, like the day that I killed that buck that he should not have been out there, you know when he was he was a five and a half year old buck. Now, Um, But if I don't have recon like that, if it's a crappy weather day, I'm going to hunt the low impact stand, one that I believe offers me a chance, but one that I also am not overly worried about messing things up on. I can get in I can get out. I'm not going to disturb anything. Perception is reality for both humans and for deer. If they don't perceive you're hunting them, you're not okay. So if I can pull that off, that's where I'm gonna go on a crappy hunting weather day, and I'm gonna save my higher impact stands for those days where Okay, it's been you know in the here it is November, it's been in the forties forties, forties forties, and today it's a higher twenty four degrees with a five to ten wind. Now is when I'm going into those higher impact stands because that fit phase the season, because the stand location matches what he wants and the weather is telling him to get up and move. I'm just it's all, it all just keeps excuse me, it all just keeps going back to stacking the odds for me. What about some of these specifics, um, you mentioned coal front there? What about pressure? Do you pay attention to barometric pressure? I don't pay a heck of a lot of attention to barometric pressure just because I don't have a barometer. I do think that, I do think that, UM, I think it was deer and deer hunting as I don't think they did the study, but but at least four or five times they've done over the years, they've done articles on barometric pressure. Without a doubt, seems to be one of the biggest keys to getting bucks up on his their feet and moving. You know, when you're gonna make me look silly because I can't remember what that range is, but there is that range out there were barometric pressure gets bucks up and moving. But it also happens to happens to be associated the barometric pressure happens to be associated with shifting fronts. So when you get that cold snap, you're doing it by default. Frankly, right right now? What about the moon? Then? You mentioned you don't believe the moon has any influence on the timing of the rut, But do you think anything related to the moon influences just time of movement during the day. You know, there's been it's been said so many times that on full moons afternoons think but mornings and midday is great that I tend to believe there's something to it. But I'll be brutally honest with you, I've never noticed the difference. Do you think do you think that those particular um events like rising barometer and moon phase should be important to a hunter that may not have like a lot of time throughout the season to hunt. They're they're more of a I can hunt when it's time type of scenario. I think that you just absolutely hit a home run with your statement in that. What I think is that barametric pressure, moon whether all that type of stuff sounds great for people like me who I mean, I let's face it, none of us can really hunt any darn time we want to, but some of us get a lot closer after than others. You know, um, I'm guessing. I'm guessing you too get to hunt a lot more than a lot of your buddies do because it's part of your job. Dan, Maybe not, but sorry continuing, Okay, well not coning, Dan, Mark, you can hunts most of your buddies you so for somebody like you, somebody like me, it makes a lot more makes a lot more sense to pay attention to barametric pressure. It wasn't that long ago where I actually had a real job and I had two weeks vacation that i'd save up every year. I worked my way up so I had three weeks totally actually being the being the gracious person that I was, saved a week for the family and set aside two weeks for myself. And yes, I am making fun of myself. That was back then, but you know, um and actually might be part of the reason why she's my ex wife. But there's a big there's the big lesson of the day, folks. But I'm telling you right now, I'm going to pretend it was all her. But but when you're doing that, you don't. It's great that you know that that when the barometric pressures and this range right here, that's when deer moving the most. But man, you took a week's worth of vacation, and are you going to sit at home or in the cabin because of the barometric pressure? Isn't right? You can't afford to. You're gonna go out and hunt. The reason that I think it's it's a little bit important for the for most quote unquote normal hunters is because I'm not going to head to the best highest impact stand location I have when it's twenty degrees above normal and it's a twenty five our wind, I'm gonna go for a lower impact stand. And hope to catch a break. But I'm going to save that higher impact stand for later in the week when the weather shifts and now all of a sudden, at least the temperatures down to normal and we're dealing with a ten to fifteen mile and our wind instead of real high tempts and a our That's how that's how I would factor, well, pack if that's how I factor to this day where I hunt based on those types of things. But I'll tell you what, when you got a limited number of days, you're gonna hunt, and if you're not, you're probably not all that eat up by hunting. You to begin with good point speaking of stands, um, and kind of pivoting here a little bit. But another somewhat counterintuitive thing I've I've heard you said, at least something that maybe goes against some popular advice, Um, is the idea of over hunting stands. But how that can be a good thing at times if it's the right stand or time. Can you talk to me to talk to us about how you learn this lesson about the importance of over hunting hot stands. Oh, the how I learned it is just yet another one of the long line of failures, which I'm very I'm great at failing, and I figure, if you're gonna fail, failed gloriously or don't bother. But um, but there was a This was way back when I was consulting for an outfitter had put in a soybean plot real late. Um, and here it is, early September. I've got a hundred and eight four that's bachelor grouped up with a couple of year and a half old bucks that are head hitting these soybeans on a daily basis. And you know, darn well, that's exactly where I am on opening day. I'm up there and oh sucky, there he is. There he is, but up he got spooped off, um just by maybe he was nothing big. It was just by some deer running around. Okay, well, man, I gotta I gotta give this stand four days off now because I just hunted it and you gotta keep your impact low. So now five days later, I'm back up in that exact same stand. There he is again. He's coming. Call he is dead. I mean, man, this is an hour before dark, and he keeps feeding closer and closer and closer. He's at fifty yards right now. I could take that shot, but ding, you know, I'll be more comfortable at thirty yards. Um. As a side note, I practice out to a hundred yards just so that I can when everything is perfect. I mean, here he is broadside, head down, eating that I can take that fifty yards shot. Um. But this is so gift wrapped. Man. Let him come, and sure enough he's working into forty yards. I'm getting ready, and all of a sudden, something in the woods catches his attention and he's staring and staring and staring. Man, if he was only broadside, now i'd be letting that arrow fly. But he's not. He's quarter to me, and he takes off running and oh comes a three and a half year old buck. Now he actually spooked from him making a rug back in the woods. All right, got to give it another five day break before I go back in. While I show up, and now the soybeans are all yellowing. That was so incredibly stupid because Mr Big is no longer coming to that food source, because the soybean leaves are no longer green now they're yellow. He doesn't want them anymore. Buck patterns are very using my definition of patterning, are rarely rarely stable for long periods of time overseason. So when a buck is telling you again going back to uh, going back to jumping up and down, waving his arms, screaming hate, kill me, idiot, you don't sit there and wait for five days before you go back in there again. I mean, I sincerely believe that if I would have hunted that stand every day until I killed them, I would have killed him. But instead of having a couple of weeks worth, or instead of having to shy of a couple of weeks worth of opportunities to hunt, what is a buck of a lifetime for me? Now? I took a handful. I took three shots at it. I limited my own I limited the number of opportunities I had at that deer. And it was actually the outfitter I was consulting for at the time, Tom Inderbow, one of one of the the premier white tailed mines out there as far as I'm concerned. When you're talking hunters, as he's the one who drilled into my head, s feet, you're blowing it. You keep hunting. You know he's going to change, So you keep hunting that buck until you either spook him or you kill him. One of the two, and in those types of situations, I think he was right and have done it that way ever since then have killed a handful of books that I don't believe I would have killed otherwise. So really, what it amounts to is when you're when they're hunting, when they're hitting a food source that you know is seasonal. You know I I know that soybeans, Those soybeans are seasonal. Lists soon as those things start to turn, they're gonna lay off them again until after they've completely dried up, draight out, and hardened, then they'll go be hitting it again. A situation like that, you hunt that stand as often as you can while at while those soybeans leaves are green, when that buck is coming out, when that buck is coming out to that brassic a plot on a regular basis during during legal shooting light, but it's just that half acre blair assic a plot. You've got a ton of your hammering a while this food is going fast, you hunt it while you can, because when it's gone, he's not going to be there anymore. He's still probably hopefully going to be on the property, but he's not going to be there. And the key is is being able to get in, hunt and get out without them knowing you're there. As long as they do not know you're there, you're not. What if this was a high pact stand though, What if the spot that you were seeing this great action on that you know that this is where they're going to be at. What if that is a high impact spot? Do you still risk it and go in there because you know that the odds are you know, disproportionately high at this time and they won't be there in the future. Or do you change your perspective little bit? Am I Do I control this ground or as somebody else let's just hypothetically say it's well, can you can you say on either or if it's by permission or on your own, because I'd be curious to hear how you approach that differently with each If this is if this is ground that I control myself and my goals, my goals on the ground I control. I don't own any it's clients. I think somehow there's an old saying God looks out for children and fools. I have an add on for they slap on the end. Obviously got the back end covered because I have some opportunities that are incredible if I and when I have those opportunities, what I'm trying to do for the clients is it's actually split between trying to kill deer and trying to raise them. If raising deer is important to me on this ground, I'm going to be much lower impact because killing him is only half the battle for me. The other half is raising him. And if I'm spooking them to if they're hammering this area right now on my ground, that means they are and over in the neighbors. Okay, so they're What I'd probably do is I I picked my spot my shots a little bit more selectively because I don't want them. If I spook these deer off this food source right now, they're safe as if they're in their mama's arms because they're heading here on the ground that I managed during legal shooting light. So that at that absolute Stud three and a half year old that I'm trying to get one more year, that's Stud two and a half year old that I'm trying to get one more year on He's every bit is important to me in that situations. The buck I'm trying to kill in that situation, I'm probably not gonna hunt it night after night after night. But I still I'm gonna push a little bit harder. I'm gonna push it until I get busted that first time, and then I'm going to back off. I'm going to back off, and I'm going to give them a chance too. I'm not going to push it hard. I'm gonna push it. I'm gonna try to make sure I don't push it so hard that they change their patterns, because their patterns are working for me. If this happens to be my my neighbor's ground, who is nice enough to give me permission to hunt it, I'm gonna hunt that location over and over and over and over and over until they stop use them. But but this goes back to what you were saying about pushing the envelope a little bit. In my mind, pushing the envelope is having multiple spots to hunt. So if I blow this here, I still got to land over there. I got the public land over there, and I've got another another piece of ground that I was able to trade some trade, some work for hunting rights over there as well. No, I think that most people, in my opinion, are way too willing to settle for hunting that one spot. I want to have other options because if I have other options, that means that a I'm don't have to pound. Um, I don't have to pound properties When things aren't going well, hunting more isn't can improve it. Okay, Um, By not going well, I mean you're not seeing squat for deer or anything close to what you want to kill for a deer. If that's happening, I don't want to hunt that property even harder because one, obviously it's telling me that if I got mature bucks here that I want to kill, they're not cooperating with me right now, so let's give them a chance to cooperate, or they're not there at all. Kind of hard to hunt something that's not say, well, it's easy to hunt something that's out there, but it's real tough to kill them. Um. But having those extra options virtually anybody who's got a driver's license, even in Illinois, Illinois gets if I recall correctly, you guys are from Illinois. Are You're not Dan's in Iowa. I'm not actually in Michigan. Okay, Well, I was completely wrong on that Iowa has a decent amount of public ground. Um, Michigan, Michigan. The up has got a ton of them. Not really familiar with the Lower Peninsula that much as far as how much ground is available. But most most of your listeners, if they're willing to drive a half hour forty five minutes, odds are they can get into public ground hunting. And public ground hunting really gets a bad rap, you know it does. I mean, I'm not pretending for a second. I am very lucky, and then I get to hunt utopia and I get to hunt. What is viewed by the hunters of the world is a scourge of hunting ground public ground. Um, I'm not going to pretend that hunting public ground is anywhere near as easy as hunting you told me, because it's not. But more often than not, public ground has got some bucks on it that you'd be more than happy to drag out. And that gives me places to head when things aren't so great. Hopefully I answered your question in there somewhere I can't even I'll be honest with you. Got off on so many tangents, remember what it was. You're the king of tangents, you know, But they're they're good. That's compliment. If you're going to fail woriously or don't bother. No, this is uh, this is I could talk about these types of things with you for for hours. That I really enjoy your perspective and a lot of these things and a lot of things you say resonate with me a lot, because it's very much. I'm not sure if it's just because it's so in line with what I believe, or because just what I believe so much of it comes from you. I'm not sure which came first, but you might you mind if I make myself look like a colossal jerk here for a second. Thank you finally someone making us look Yeah, this is nice for change you. There's there's a reason I like and respect you guys, because you're in this industry and you actually hunt. You have to know as well as I do, the majority of the people in this industry that are quote unquote experts by our definition, they don't hunt. They kill stuff. Yeah, when you go when you go from and there's there's nothing wrong with this. I don't This is not so our grapes or anything. You know what. God loves the people that are able to do this for a living and that that genuinely enjoy it. But when you go from guided hunt to guided hunt, to guided hunt, to guided hunt to guided hunt, and the only payments these outfitters are receiving his publicity. So what they tend to do is they tend to save that one area where that good buck is coming out on. They tend not all of them, but a good percent tend to save that area for their quote unquote expert who's coming in. All they do is climb up a stand and kill something. Well you know what, that's you you come. It's really easy to jump to all sorts of conclusions that aren't very accurate in the real world. The other the other scenario that happens quite a bit is I'm as I've just got done saying, you know, God looks out for children and fools, and I got the back end covered there. I've been very lucky to manage now five very large properties over the years where these guys that they they go ahead and they give me budgets that are beyond what most people would think. They're saying, h and just go ahead and set this up to make it the very best of your hunting property you can when you're hunting on properties like that, when they start hitting. When they really start hitting their stride, it's hard to look stupid. It is, I mean, the things that work for you there. You try that stuff on your uncle's farm, you try that stuff on public ground, Man, are you gonna look real stupid, real fast? When when you don't ever hunt those types of scenarios, it's hard not to believe your own press clippings. It's hard to believe that, you know what, taking to taking two carbon arrows and tapping them together. It sounds like rattling antlers. Really isn't the greatest thing in the world to try to do on that uncle's property, because it's probably not gonna work, But it works a lot better when you're dealing with the pope and young buck. For every forty akers and you're talking about a five thousand acre property, you know, chances are one of those, one of those Pope and young bucks are gonna walk by you. Whether it had anything to do with you clicking those antlers, those two carbon arrows together or not, it comes really easy to jump to all sorts of conclusions that just don't add up. And that's why I'm I'm it's not an accident that I still hunt public ground. Part of it's quite honestly an ego trip. I shouldn't say this, but you kill a three and a half year old buck, I don't care if it's a hundred inches. When I drank a three and a half year old buck off a public ground, I feel like I did something. I mean, it's a source of pride and it helps, it helps hone my skills. But at the same time, as I said, I know this makes me sound like a colossal jerk, but I cannot, for the life of me, understand how people themselves can stand up there it's in front of a TV camera, whether it's in front of an audience and a deer show where if it's in a magazine and tell normal hunters how they should hunt when you never ever hunt like that normal hunter does. That's quite honestly, why I think that the three of us can relate to each other so well or three d or not three killers. Yeah, and I agree with everything you're saying there. And on top of all that, I think what we're doing is a whole lot more fun, like actually dealing with the challenge and really having to learn these deer and really putting in the work that's a lot more fun and fulfilling than ever just climbing up a tree stand and killing something that you know someone told me would be there. I did I personally, and like you said, there's nothing wrong with it, you know, to each their own. But that just doesn't do it for me. Um, I'm I hunt for the hunt. I can honestly say I've never went on a guide that hunt in my life. Not because, as I said, I I cut my teeth on the consulting act be consulting for outfitters. God love, people are going guided hunts. There's absolutely positively nothing wrong with that in any way, shape or form. But the thrill isn't there for me. I don't wait to me, I mean, I know this sounds cool and all that stuff, but no bs. To me, killing the gear is not the rush. The rush is somehow figuring it out well enough that I can be within shooting range of that mature deer and he doesn't know him there. That to me is the rush. To me, the rushes Jesus must be ten years ago now when I thought I might have figured out something about dominant family group dominant doe groups, and then spending the next you know, six seven years trying to prove it wrong and not being able to prove it wrong. I just figured something. That is the rush and the stuff for me figuring out those little things, putting together the jigsaw puzzle that every one of these properties are, whether it's public ground or private ground, and figuring out the picture it paints that gives you the best odds of killing Mr. Big. That is the rush killing the deer is that there's obviously I don't think there's anything wrong with killing deer, And frankly, I always look forward to the seasons where my clients have too many dolls and I've got to kill a bunch of dolls because this isn't politically correct. But I really like killing deer, especially when I can go ahead and donate the extra venison that I won't be using to feed hungry people, and actually get to pretend I'm doing something good in this world for once. That's fun. That's that's what drives me on this type of stuff. That and quite honestly, habitat improvements where I'm trying to get a dear to do this and whow can you believe it? He just did? Wow? Isn't that the coolest darn thing you ever saw. He was doing that, and I now have him do this. It's just those stupid things I get off on. Yeah, No, I think you're among kindred spirits here. Me and me and Dan are very much in the same boat as you and uh and man I gotta believe that most of our listeners probably can relate to a lot of this too, but it's much as they hate to say this, Steve, we have got to wrap this conversation up. We've We've probably taken more time than than you were expecting, so thank you for that you can. I don't I love talking about this type of stuff, especially when it's with people like you guys. You guys do if this, If this and the last interview was beneficial to your audience in any way, shape or form, you were, you guys are the ones that deserve the credit because you know better than I do. I'm not a good interview. You're good. I've I've thoroughly enjoyed this um and you guys, you guys, Yeah, it is my pleasure. And you guys better be proud of his heck or what you built there, because I you deserve to be well. Thank you. We really appreciate that. I guess you know, well, if we want to continue throwing compliments, I'll throw one more year way really quickly and just say that to the point I made earlier, your books are terrific. I own two of them. I haven't read The Habitat yet, but I'm definitely going to. I really quick. Want to give you an opportunity to let our audience know where where should they go to find those books, because I think they definitely should try to give him a reader they can um if if they want to give them the cheapest they can, they should just go to Amazon. I kild the dirty little secrets. One of the dirty little secrets about writing books is the amazons of the world. We can get them cheaper than the author can um so any if you just do a search on my name on Amazon, you'll come up with all four of them. Otherwise, if the person wanted an autograph copy uh www Dad, dot food, dash plots, dash for dash deer dot com minus signs between each one of those words, you can buy an even there and would be more than happy to sign them. But I'm telling telling your audience right up front, you can get them all all cheaper straight from Amazon. You throw in a fifty dollar charge for your autograph though, right I. If I did, my book sales would be far worse. I'm surprised people don't some people that order the books. It has absolute for me directly, has absolutely nothing to do with wanting a signature. They have no idea they or even to get one. And I'm surprised I haven't gotten books back asking for reasons. That's awesome, well, Steve, this this has been great. We really appreciate you owning us and sharing your perspective and everything. And hopefully we can stay in touch over the coming months and we'll have some great stories to share from another successful hunting season for you. Sounds great, gentlemen, alright, if you don't mind, I just want to thank your audience. Um, I I couldn't do what I do without them, and that's not lost on me for a second. And to say I appreciate it just seems to be not doing any kind of justice whatsoever. But trust me, it is not lost on me. How incredibly blessed I am to do what I do and I all that to your audience. Yeah, that's that's a great point in both both Dan and I too. We we appreciate everyone listening and uh man, this is good stuff. Steve, thank you so much. Oh my pleasure. Guys. All right, well, I have one more piece of advice for you today now that we're wrapping this up, and that is to go back and listen to this entire conversation with Steve again, because there was just so much valuable information I think packed in this one. I think there are so many things that you can take away from this and apply to your own hunting season and you will see better success. Listen to it again. There's a lot to digest. I'm going to do the same, and I hope you really enjoy this one and found as valuable as I did. Now real quick, before we shut this down, we need to thank our partners who helped make this podcast possible. So thank you too, Sick of Gear, Trophy, Ridge, Bear Archery, Redneck Blinds, Hunter, A, Maps of Zonics, Carbon Express, Maven Optics, in the White Tailed Institute of North America. And with all that said, thank you as well for joining us today. We really appreciate your time, appreciate you spending this couple hours of us talking. Dear and hopefully it found us as educational and interesting as I did. And finally, of course, I hope you'll stay wired to hunt that

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