00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number one. Today in the show, we're discussing all things gun hunting with Luke Wilkinson, a firearm design engineer with Remington Arms. All Right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. And as I mentioned just a second ago, today we're talking about gun hunting and fire arms. And as I'm sure you know, gun hunting for deer is one of the most popular forms of deer hunting in the country really, but since Dan and I don't spend as much time in the woods with a gun as we do with a bow, we've kind of failed to talk about this on the podcast so far. That said, I know it's something that's still a lot of you are interested in. So today we've got Luke Wilkinson, a firearm design engineer from Remington's Arms, joining us on the show to help us dive deep into this topic. He's going to be able to offer a lot more insight than either me or Dan Kin, that's for sure. So in the next hour or so. We're going to talk about everything from picking out the right gun, hunt with two, maintaining and caring for your guns, to to practice him with, and finally actually hunting deer with your firearm. So it's gonna be loaded with helpful information for any and all of you that plan on hunting deer with a gun this season. But before all that, I want to catch up a little bit with my brother from Another Mother, co host, Mr Dan Johnson. What's going on? Man? That was a pretty good introduction. I felt. I felt like I felt like I was wanted with that introduction. You are you are Dan. Everyone out there listening right now, That's what they've been waiting for there, just waiting for Dan to get on the air, and I'm here. I'm glad. How was your easterman? It was good? It was good. It was pretty low key. Um just kind of took care of some stuff around the house and spent some time, you know, eating good food and catching up with with everyone. But otherwise it was was It was a weekend full of disappointment. To be honest with you, like your your wife didn't cook as good as a meal as you should have, as you should have or like, what kind of disappointment are you talking about? No, No, the wife cook some really good food. The disappointment was related to basketball, as you know. Yeah, yeah, I'm as you know Dan, I'm a big Michigan State homer. And we just kind of we kind of hit a wall on Saturday night. So that was a bummer. I wish I could say I feel sorry for you, or um, I don't watch basketball, so you got nothing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Man, that's all right, I'm over it. It was a great run. But uh, but on a on a more relevant topic, the other thing I'm thinking about right now, which is the opposite of being disappointed, was just before I jumped on on the air here talk with you, I was interviewing someone for a story and this guy was from Ohio and he killed a buck last year, and um, he sent over these trail camera pictures and this buck is just an incredible deer. But was super cool about is he had a bunch of like wire stuck on one side of his antlers. They got stuck in a fence or something. I don't know what it was from um, but these pictures were just super cool and just kind of flipping through all these shots, it just got me like super pumped up for deer hunting or like, you know, it's it's April, but I got like a little bit of a adrenaline rush just thinking about November. Yeah. Man, sometimes if you don't watch those adrenaline rushes, they'll like they'll keep you from going to sleep at night. That's why I try to stay off the uh the worldwide web before I go to bed, because if I if I run across an article about a big deer or you know, um, youel they're hunting out west or anything like that, I fired up and then I'm not tired so ill late thinking about uh, you know, the upcoming faller, what I need to do this spring to uh to get ready, and it just it creates like kind of like a snowball effect of energy until I finally got to go, like take a shot or something to get me calmed down again. Yeah. I can't claim the late night shots are what I need to do to to fall asleep, but I can definitely relate to the excitement. Um And it's it's it's an addiction, that's for sure. And uh, you know, I just I think you just posted something I just posted thing today just about the fact that antler growth is starting again for a lot of deer right now, and the cycle, the regenerating cycle of antler growth kicking off here in April. Um. That gets me pretty excited too, because in May and June, we're gonna start seeing those antlers pop up, and we'll start to see, you know, what bucks are back and who's hanging out in the area, and the whole cycle just kicks off again, and uh man, I can't wait. Yep, my buddy sent me a Troke camera picture uh yesterday of a buck with two inch velvet nubs already, like just real small, like real small nubs. So I mean it starts as soon as those antlers fall off. That's awesome. That's exciting to hear. Yeah, you're right, it's uh, they're out there and it's just you know, it's just cool. I just love the summer, getting to see, like I mentioned, getting to see who's back, finding out what's in the area, and all the anticipation. I think that's one of my favorite things about deer hunting is just the anticipation of deer hunting, just looking forward to it and thinking about it. And dreaming about it, like you said, staying up all night obsessing over it. Um, now's a good time to do that. So it's kind of cool because I know, guys like me and you, we research our trail camera pictures to the point where we don't really need the antlers, do uh, to tell what buck is who? So it's like, oh, it's uh, it's al Rod. He's got a he's got a clip in his ear, and he's got kind of like his white nose goes up just a little bit past where a normal you know, where it normally does. Or this buck's got a double throat patch, or this buck's gotta you know, a swollen knee or something like that. And and we can tell what bucks, you know, who they are before the before they even have their antlers. So yeah, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool, and I think, um, you know, today we're just going to get that much more into the excitement of all because we're talking about you know, gun hunting, which for lot of people is something they look forward to every year. And I do too. Um, I always enjoy getting out there a couple of times for the gun season here in Michigan, and you know, taking out my muzzleload or something like that in one of the other states I hunt. So I think we're gonna have an interesting conversation and definitely something that that kind of fills a gap for you and me, or maybe a weakness a little bit. Like you and I, we we spend a ton of time out in the woods of the Bow and we talked about that a lot, but we haven't really touched on the whole firearms set of things. And that's an important side of of the of hunting is there's a lot of people go out there and spend a lot of their time out there carrying up carrying some kind of firearm out there chasing deer. But I just don't have that expert insight into, you know, the technical side of things, how to pick out the right gun, or how to really be taking the best care of it, or you know, different things to think about when you're actually out there hunting with a gun. Um, I don't have as much experience and an insight to that. So I'm excited that Luke can can help us out with that, and um, I think he's gonna give us a lot of interesting insight, especially given the fact that he's an engineer, a firearm engineer. UM, so he's really, you know, a terrific resource about everything when it comes to guns. So I guess you'd be pretty cool. I'm ready. Well, if you're ready, I think I'm ready. I think we should we should get Luke on the phone and we should start talking guns. Let's do it all right on the line with us now, is Luke Wilkinson. Welcome the show, Luke, thanks for having any mark. Yeah, you know, Dan and I were just talking a couple of minutes ago about the fact that, uh, you know, gun hunting and firearms are a little bit of a weak spot for us, So we're really excited to have you on the line with all the experience that you have to really help us, you know, dive into this topic and and share some helpful experiences and insight that me and Dan probably wouldn't be able to give our listens. So, so thank you for joining us. And that said, you know, as we mentioned a little earlier, you do work as a firearm design engineer for a major firearm company. But could you tell us a little more detail about maybe a little bit about who you are as a hunter and maybe how you got into all that and then finally you know what you do for a day job. Sure, yeah, UM I got started hunting probably when I was about fourteen years old. UM. I actually was born uh in the suburbs of St. Louis, but moved to uh Middle Tennessee when I was about ten years old. And after I got there and started making friends, a lot of my friends were would talk about going hunting. So at that point and I was like, well, this sounds really fun. I'm in and uh so, I guess I I my first year hunting was probably fall of seven or so. First year deer hunting, I had a lot of close call, missed some deer you know what, um, you know, when those things that everybody seems to be getting started, and uh, basically, you know, I've been hunting ever since, and I've gotten really really involved in deer hunting and some um quality deer management type things and and uh turkey hunting as well. UM So, I guess what what made me reach out to you about this podcast is that, uh, you know, during the course of essentially learning how to hunt, UM, I had some help along the way with an uncle who is a um pretty solid contributor to teaching me how to hunt, and uh, but I made a lot of mistakes along the way, um, you know everything from hunting strategy too. I've had a still occasionally have a problem with getting in the moment of truth and you know, missing blowing the shot or whatever getting excited it, or you know, having um some sort of equipment issue to prevent me from capitalizing. UM. So fast forward a little bit from you know, when I was growing up learning to hunt, and UM, I'm actually I gotta After I got my masters and mechanical engineering, I got a job at a as a design engineer at a major fiarms company. So in um, the last six years working where I do, I've you know, learned a lot of things, UM, kind of learned. There are a lot of mistruths out there and a lot of old life tales about this, um you know, chooting related stuff. UM. So I figured this would be a good opportunity to kind of debunk some of those myths or offer you know, whatever insight I can as to uh some tips that you know they will UM help people you know that worked so hard all year to put themselves in position to to harvest this This dear and then, you know, prevent them from having some sort of equipment related issue that causes them to joke in the moment of truths. Yeah, well, I can certainly relate to that, you know, um for anyone who's listened to the podcast over the past couple of months. Just this past year, in December, I had a situation where I missed an opportunity at a deer. I think it was three times, two times in a row, or three times because of a firearm malfunction in my muzzle lover. I had one where my gun wun't cocked back, and then the second time I was able to get my gun cocked back, but when I shot it misfired. And then the third time I had an issue where the gun wentn't cocked back, and then finally I forced it back and then no, yes, I got a cock back, but when I pulled the trigger it it wouldn't it wouldn't go off. And then when I went to try to get the hammer pulled back in further, I thought maybe the hammer wasn't locked all the way back. When I tried to fix that, and I just brushed my thumb against it, the hammer did explode for it and then the gun went off and you know, didn't hit what I was originally aiming at before messing around with that, So I kind of experienced it all just in December trying to kill a doe. Do you remember that well day, don't you? Yes, that didn't go well. UM. So I'm glad that you can be the person to give us this advice because, certainly, based on how I've been doing lately, I'm the one making the mistakes too, and I'm the guy that needs this help. So UM that said, I'm curious you said that you're you're design engineer for a firearm company. You know, what do you do? What are you designing? What are you engineering? What's your job? UM? My particular job, I actually work on defense related to fire arms, So I deal most of my career has dealt with UM semi automatic and automatic UH, you know, like a machine gun like UH, for example, the the IN four that the army uses. I've worked on improvements to that, UM upgrades like all together different UM guns for that. And then I've also worked on like semi automatic sniper systems, so a little bit UM more long range capable guns UM that. Really they follow the pattern of the for what we call like a modern sporting rifle, which a lot of people call like an A R fifteen or an a R ten. Um. So, I've got a lot of experience in magazine fed semi automatic and automatic weapons, and I guess, uh, that's part of my responsibility has been designing and testing and troubleshooting guns in order to meet requirements that are set forth by by the government for different solicitations. Wow. So that's that sounds of some really serious stuff, but fascinating. I'm sure, um so would you can, I'm assuming you would, but I'm assuming you know, would you consider yourself a gun guy? You're like one of the you like the details and the ballistics and all the numbers and everything. I consider I guess compared to most people, I definitely do consider myself a gun guy. Um you know that me and said, I work with a lot of people, and I know a lot of people in the industry that um are just you know, if they've forgotten more about guns, and I will ever know, you know. So it's all relative, I guess, right exactly, So I guess with with that all the way, then it's safe to say that you know more about guns and gun hunting than I do, and then Dan does. Um. So you know, what we're really hoping to do today is to pick your brain about everything that someone needs to know to really be a smart, effective, well prepared deer hunter with a firearm. And I think that starts with choosing the right gun. Um. So we've got a whole bunch of questions related to that, but I think Dan was going to kick us off. So, so Dan, where do you want to go from here? So to say that I don't know anything about guns is a huge understatement, because I don't know anything about guns period. I You could talk to me about rifles and I'd look at you like it was quantum physics. But for for a brand new firearm, let's say, someone like myself who doesn't know anything about calibers and engages and all this stuff. What are some what some advice or some tips that you can that you can give to a first time gun owner that wants to get into firearm hunting. UM. Okay, Well the first thing I would say is that, um, you know, look at what states you live in or what state you're planning on hunting in. Um. Because if I recommended for you to get a with bang uh centi fire rifle. That would be great, other than you couldn't use it during I was shotgun season because they don't allow centerfire rifles. Um So, I would say, depending on what your state regulations are for deer hunting, um that would that would play a large part into what I uh, you know what I would go for. That being said, for a shotgun slash muggle or only state like like Iowa or um I guess the one the other shotgun only as well, but for for those kind of states, uh, you know, you have some trade offs between shotgun versus a muzzleloader. Um So, since since we're starting with the basics, and muzzleloader is you know exactly you know what it sounds like. You you actually load the powder and the bullet in from the muzzle and uh it's not a quick process, so you're limited to pretty much one shot. You know, I've seen I've seem the d is that people getting multiple shots off on deer with the muzzleloader, but you can pretty much count on one shot only for for for those uh you know, some of the benefits of a muzzleloader is that generally your projectiles are a little bit um flatter shooting, So if your range destination is a little bit off. So if you if you have your gun sighted in at say hundred yards, and the deer comes out at a hundred twenty five hundred and fifty yards, you can pretty much count on keeping the same point of aim. Your bullet is not going to drop that much between a hundred and a hundred and fifty yards as opposed to a shotgun, which has especially like a twelve gage shotgun. If you're shooting a slug, you're looking at a significant amount of drop between a hundred and a hundred fifty yards UM. That could potentially cause you to miss miss the deer if you paim where you would normally aim at a hundred. So that that's something that's something to keep in the mind. UM. As far as before you go out there, do you want you want actors by volume, you want to have the shotgown or you can reload and pop some many rounds down rags as possible, or do you want to make a single well placed UM shot UH with the muzzle over so quick UH interjection. Then, given there's the the cost benefit analysis between the two. There if if you were choosing. If you could only hunt an area that you know didn't allow rifles, and you had to pick between a shotgun or muzzloder, what would you personally choose? I typically use muzzleloaders. Um. I actually have a property, uh that I hunt that the landowner prefers that I don't use rifles because he lives on the property and has a fear of you know, wayward bullets. Um. So, but he lets me use muzzleloaders and shotguns and archery there. So I when I go there, I typically go with a scope muzzloader. I feel confident out to a d fifty yards and don't have to worry about range estimation or anything like that. Okay, now, so we've talked to me. If you need to decide what you can use in your area, can you only use a shotgun or muzzleloader or can you use a rifle? Um? What else should you be thinking about now when you're making that decision, Because you know, to Dan's point, especially if you have no experience with guns, Um, I have more than he does, but I'm not necessarily a guru. Um. When you walk into a store like Cabela's or whatever, your local gun shop, is there's a million, not a million, but there's a ton of different options, and there's all these different models and all these different calibers and all these different styles. UM. If if you were to say, you know, the basic baseline, let's let's talk rifles now. Since we just talked about shotguns and muzzlers, what do you think would be just a basic startup rifle for deer hunting that someone should look into. What would you say would be your your overall first pick that someone should say, hey, this is a good start starter gun. UM. I would say probably the most commonly used UM and what what I typically use or UM for most of my career has been just a bolt action rifle. It's a very common rifle. They're relatively you to operate. There's a lot of models out there at all different price points. UM. So you know you can get an entry level bolt action rifle with the scope already mounted. It's already been laser bore sided, so that you know when you go to to sight the gun in your first shots most likely going to be within three or four inches of where the scope is. UM. You can get those for three three fifty bucks. That about those are bestrow shops or wherever. UM, there's a lot, there's a lot of brands. I know Remington has a Model seven eighty three, Marlin has their model at seven UM. Savage makes a bolt action around that price point, I believe, and I know the Ruger American is another good one at that price point UM. And and then going up from there, Uh, you know you're looking to spend five or six hundred dollars on the rifle or um you can get like that pretty much the standard UM that a lot of uh other rifles have been based on is the rooms in models seven action. UM. So that's that's a pretty good mid level, UM, reliable, accurate fun that's been out there for a long time. So here's a question for you. I mean, when you buy a gun like that, like you mentioned one those entry level bolt action rifles that's in that three to five d price point UM. From everything I've seen and from my own experience with them, they're pretty darn accurate, pretty darn dependable guns. I mean their quality, UM, what do you get when you upgrade to these other rifles that are thousand dollars or UM? Is the difference that noticeable? And if so, you know what is it that you're paying for when you get that more expensive and more expensive gun? Okay, Um, well, the fit and finished are generally a lot better. UM. So the lower price point guns or something that they're generally there there are a lot higher volume UM. The tolerances they would have a little looser um in order to just make sure that everything fits and goes together. And the manufacturing process processes aren't generally not as like detailed. UM. But I guess you can get like for for ball section rifles, you can get one big thing that people talk you hear a buzzword is the betting on the betting of the action. So a lot of the higher end guns will have UM like a composite type stock that has aluminum betting blocks or um you know, uh, they'll they'll count um you know, free floated barrel and things like that. UM. I would say that for for the the higher price point guns, you're getting a lot nicer looking guns. UM. A lot of them they'll have like coatings on them that will make them better, more rest resistant, or it maybe a stainless steel action instead of a you know, playing carbon steel action with with with blue ing or whatever. UM. And sometimes they'll they'll offer for better triggers with the the more expensive guns or generally you know, just generally more durable type product. Okay, that makes sense. Um. Now, the final thing I'm wondering about when it comes to choosing the right gun is caliber, because this is another one of those things I think can be intimidating for a lot of people because there's so many different calibers and I think a lot of people probably don't even know what it means UM or hard differentiate or what's needed. Um is there you know, maybe is there best overall caliber for deer or if not, is there a handful of popular calibers that you'd recommend that if someone's going to the store, you should look into these these handful of different calibers when they're choosing the right gun for for deer hunting. Yeah. Um, the people will argue with you until they're blue in the face of or what the best caliber is UM. But you know, I can definitely say some recommendations of some pretty popular, proven calibers. Some of it is a little bit depended on what kind of ranges you're looking at shooting. I mean, if you're looking at you know, your maximum distance you're shooting a deer is a hundred yards. Then, oh, I mean the possibilities are endless as far as calibers. Um. You know a lot of the arguments for some of the other calibers over it, well it's flat or shooting and um, et cetera. But I mean, I think a good baseline cartridge is is your three a weight Um that that's a it's a good trade off between and UM knockdown power. Um. You've got the ability for longer in shooting with it. UM. And the recol is not such that it's going to um you know, just jar you so bad that you're afraid to shoot it. UM. For like someone that's a little bit smaller stature, UM, maybe something like a two forty three to forty three is essentially like a necked down three or eight. So it's the same parent cartridge a smaller, little bit lighter weight bullets or your recoal is going to be a little bit less um. And if you want to go bigger, UM, thirty other six is is a pretty popular one. It's been done around a long time. Three wind bag is also a good one. To seventy would probably be the other one I'm throwing with that good. So, of all those calibers that you just mentioned, that would be for a regular, I mean regular first time hunter. Now, would you suggest a different caliber for maybe you women or children? Uh, for women their children. I personally like the two forty three. Uh, that's a that's a really I think it's a good trade off between you've you've got so good knockdown power, a wide availability of bullets. Um, So you can go to Walmart or Cabela's and they're probably gonna have ten different flavors of two forty three bullets there. Um. But you definitely don't want to go um on the bigger side, especially smaller stature of people, women, children, um, whatever, They're going to be recal sensitive, um. And the last thing you want is to introduce some sort of bad habit as a result of them being afraid of the recoil of a gun. Now. I I know you mentioned and this may sound like a dumb question on my part, but knockdown power what what is? What would you say is the definition of knockdown power? I would call it like kinetic energy of the bullet. So your kinetic energy is a function of the mass of the bullet and the velocity of a good UM. So like I uh to three. You can buy a hundred grain bullet UM and you know, with the multiple velocities that are typical for that caliber, you're gonna have x amount of kinetic energy that is more than capable of breaking through bone. You know, you put it on the shoulder hundred yards and you're you're going to penetrate and you're going to put the gear down. So next day you started mentioned this a little bit earlier, and so it's kind of tying to that. You talked about your experience with modern sporting rifles or you know, some people refer to them things based on the a our platform. UM, what are your thoughts on modern sport rifles for deer hunting? You know, are they appropriate gun for deer hunters? And if so, you know, is there any type you would recommend? UM. So there's a whole there's kind of a political aspect to the modern sporting rifle because obviously they look different than what people are used to as as a deer rifle. UM. You know that the biggest difference is there UM magazine fed You know, a shotgun has a magazine, but it's in it's in a tube form. But um, you know, these modern sporting rifles have a detachable magazine UM, and it's a semi automatic, so you when you pull the trigger, it fires the round, eject suspend case and then loads uh the next round. UM. From my perspective, I actually UM have gotten to where I enjoyed carrying these deer hunting UM they're yeah, it's it's probably as much as just the nature of the beasts, and it's what I worked worked with a lot. But they're really I mean, there are essentially the next generation in um, you know, in hunting rifle, because you know, the bolt action was originally what soldiers used in the early nine and then so and now the modern sporting rifle is actually it's kind of on kind of one of the it's been around since the sixties and it's just now really making it into mainstream hunting type scenarios. But they're they're really they're lightweight, so they're they're semi automatic, and as a result of the action being semi automatic, there's an inherent recoil of reduction just because some of the recoil energy is spent and actually moving the moving parts in the gun. That's uh, you know, that occurs when when the you cycled the action, that reloaded the next round. So for a three oh eight, So you you've got a seven pounds three o eight semi automatics versus a seven pound three light bolt action rifle. You're semi automatic is going to have less felt recoal than your bolt action. Now is that true? If you look at a semi automatic throughweight, you know, regular old time rifle that's a semi auto versus a modern sporting rifle that's you know obviously looks and feels different. Is that still going to be um less recoil with MSR compared to the regular woodstock standard looking rifle. UM generally, it's it's it depends on um So like the the actual amount of massages moving. So like an older style semi automatic versus the modern sporting rifle, it may have a little bit different amount of the bolt essentially the bolt terrier assembly may wait more or less and that could potentially, you know, affected the effect. Okay, interesting, Now, I guess the next thing naturally coming after us if we've talked about the different types of guns, you know, rifle versus shotgun, versus musslover. And now we've talked about the different calibers. Um, the next thing at least that I'm thinking about that if I'm trying to buy the gear to get started gun hunting is AMMO. And I kind of grew up with a family that was kind of you know, Um, I'm trying to think with economical I'll say it will do the right word to use maybe. Um, you know, I still use the same rifle that my grandpa gave me, you know, fifteen years ago. And I still use a box of shells that he gave to me back then. Um, when it comes to rifle hunting up in northern Michigan, And if I was buy new AMMO, I think, you know, we've always just kind of bought the baseline standard you know, three AMMO for that rifle. UM, I never really got into thinking about, you know, the more expensive fancy ammunition or white that what that might entail or what that might give. UM. So I'm curious, you know, is expensive AMMO worth the money for your average deer hunter? And uh, you know, if so, what should I'd be looking for when buying ammunition? Um? So again, it kind of depends on you know, if if you're hunting thick woods and you're driver never gonna shoot past the hundred yards, then it's probably not gonna matter that much about whether you buy the cheapest stuff you can find versus you know, and you don't need to be buying the five dollar shot you know, premium AMMO or anything. But when you get into long range type type things like maybe Western hunting with a rifle, it definitely pays to go with a little bit higher end AMMO. That's not to say that there's not lower end AMMO that is is very consistent and shoots pretty well. UM. But in general, you know, the more you the more you pay, the more you get UM with AMMO. And and whether it's uh, you know, their quality control for that, you know, when they run that type of AMMO is a little bit tighter UM or whatever, but you there is some benefit to paint a little bit more for m O. Okay, so we now we talked about the m O and we actually had a guest on the podcasts when we were talking about our our our Western hunting trip and he's told us that you should put as much money into your scope as you should your rifle. UM. Do you agree with that? And then maybe could you elaborate on UM as far as sites and optics, we are the best for hunting situations. I absolutely agree with um the statement about the put as much or more or money into your scope as you do into your rifle. UM. Optics can make a huge different and UM in a wide variety of situations. But low light is which you know, deer move in low light conditions, so it can it can mean the difference between being able to to shoot that deer up to the end of legal shooting time or you know, having a calle quip fifteen minutes early because he can't feature your scope. UM. That being said, Uh, what type of scope, Like the magnification of the scope is, It's pretty situationally dependent. UM. So for for me, for Eastern deer hunting, basically a three to nine is a is a really good So it goes from three three times magnification up to nine x adjustable. UM. You know that's a very good it's pretty pretty standard versatile set up. UM. You know out west people may go with four to twelves or five to fifteen magnatyevnation. UM. You know in situations where uh, you want a little bit more magnification when you're potentially shooting long ranges. But at the same time, you know, back east, if you're hunting the brush country, you may want like a fixed four x scope or or or something like that. There there are a lot of different options there. I a really good explanation of the UM the clarity of optics or what kind of difference that can make is uh. I have a co worker that told me one time he got like a Leopold say it was like a two to two to five X scope or something like that. That's a relatively low magnification scope, and when comparing it to a you know, a different brand of three to nine X scope, he could make out better detail with the looking through the Leopold glass than he could looking through the nine power scope. Okay, Now, one thing that I was kind of intimidated by UM as far as buying a rifle in the scope is and and maybe this is just me assuming, but you know range and having to do with the drop and you know the spin and all this stuff. How do you have to do a lot of math and do you have to do a lot of like studying and and taking notes when you're siting in your rifle for different ranges, I would say, you know, anything out to a hundred yards, No, when you get to two d yards depending on what the caliber is, UM, you know you you at least need to It would be good to at least look up online. Most ammunition manufacturers will have tables available on their websites where you can go and say, okay, I shoot at three with you know, I've got a twenty inch barrel, and then UM, they'll tell you if you have your gun zero and a hundred yards that you're you know your gun's gonna or your bullet will drop two inches between a hundred and two hundred yards or you know, for example, UM, when you get out to ranges, when you're pushing two hundred and fifty three hundred yards, you definitely need you need to be aware of what of what your bullet is doing. Like I'm just trying to recall, like I think my I shoot at two forty three deer hunting sometimes and a hundred yards zero, I believe it is two inches low at two hundreds and then we're talking like nine inches low at three hundred. So if you're aiming center of mass, um at three hundred year potentially shooting under the deer or hitting in the brisket or something like that. So and three D and beyond it gets I mean it's exponentially um, you know, more drop. So so you definitely need to be away or of what kind of drop you're going to be seen. And and sometimes those published tables aren't going to be exactly what your particular gun does. So if you're shooting past three hundred yards, you need to you need to do the due diligence um to make sure that you know exactly where that bullet's going to go when when you pull the trigger. And whether that's through actually practicing at longer ranges or through some people. You can actually like take a chronograph and get the muzzle velocity of your particular gun with that particular load, and then from that you can there's all kinds of online calculators where it'll you can put in all the inputs and it will tell you exactly, yeah, how much it's going to drop. So this this ties in perfectly with where I kind of want to take things next, which is, you know, let's say I've got a gun, now, maybe I just bought one if I'm new or let's have been gunning for a long time, but I want to figure out how to do this the right way. I want to talk about the proper way to sight in a gun, and then the proper way to establish a practice regimen. So to start, um and tale in perfectly with what you're just talking about there, can you walk us through, you know, from your standpoint working for a firearms manufacturer, how would you guys say, is the correct way to sight in a new firearm before deer running season? Well, if it's a brand new out of the box, the first thing I would do, um would be too before you even take it out there is I would Uh, I would run like a board brush to the board. I would I would clean the board. Uh. There's it's common for you know, a gun fresh off the line to have some sort of uh, you know, crud from one of the manufacturing processes, or maybe the barrel has a certain type of pat treatment that might lead some crude behind or whatever. So a good a good starting point is going to be, um, just clean the clean the boar. Um. And one thing that that's really important UM. And this comes into whether the premium AMMO is worth it or not. Is whatever you're sighting your gun in with that needs to be what you're hunting with. So don't buy the cheap stuff to site your gun in and then just go out and buy a you know, a more expensive box of shells for hunting, because it's not you're not comparing apples to apples. Three o eight. You know, Remington load does not equal a three o eight Winchester load or a three late Federal load. So you need to make sure you eliminate as many sources of variation as possible by by being consistent um throughout the process. So, uh so you got your You've got your your barrel is clean. You go to the range A really good I mean common zero range is a hundred yards, um, So what I would recommend is making sure you had ad a arrange with a hundred yards and um you want to be you want to have a as steady arrest as you can possibly get. Um if you can't sit there and um, I feel like you can hold the crosshairs on the center of the target consistently, and then you're really you're really gonna be chasing your tail because you're gonna be like sitting there questioning yourself, well, that bullet went left? Was that because I pulled it left? Or that because you know I need to move my scope left? Um, so you really need to make sure you have as steady arrest as possible UM to get started. UM. A good way to uh to get ready for for UM for the sight in is most monitoring guns, other than some gun ram fires, you can actually dry cycle. So when I say dry cycle, is you actually without without the gun load, so completely unloaded. UM, you can you know, take the safety off and pull the trigger and if you're so, if you're looking through the scope and and and pick out the center very center of you know, of the target, and just practice a couple of times. Uh, you know, dry fire the gun a couple of times and make sure that you know when you actually break the trigger, you know when you're hand that co ordination lines up, that it that the crossairs is where you were where you wanted it to be. UM. So after you know, after you're you're comfortable. UM, what I would do is I think you can you can legitimately sight in a gun with a single box of the m O UM not not knowing anything about it to begin with, so I would I would start by firing maybe five shots from your brand new gun just to like get it, get it on paper, um, And then I would make sure I had cleaning supplies available, uh at the rain, so run run from patches or run the board rushed through it and um, it's it's typical for sometimes a Brandy barrel is going to have a couple of little sharp edges on the inside from from the manufacturing process. And what it'll sometimes do is it will shave a little bit of copper off the jacket or your bullet, and it will leave some copper behind in the board. And what you want to do is after a few shots, it's kind of worn that the sharp it is down a little bit, so you want to you want to get it back to square one by by cleaning it. Um. So then your next three to five shots, I would make sure you got your you're you would use that to get your point of impact as close to where you're aiming point as possible. So um, assuming you've got it on paper already, once you can get in on paper at any distance. It doesn't have to be a hundred guards, but you you you at least want to get it as close to where you're aiming as possible, and the next three shots shots, like I said, it should be at the distancing plant the zero of the rifle UM. And at that point I would say uh, d copper or clean the board again, and then uh with your next two shots, you would make your final scope adjustments. So at that those last those next two shots, UM, I would make sure that your impact is lining up as close to your where your cross hairs are when you pull the trigger as possible. UM. And what I always like to do after sighting in is shoot like a a three shot group, So you wanna try to put three shots as close as possible together, and that that kind of gives you an idea of okay, well, rather than going out there and firing one shot and say, okay, it's it's an inch from the the bulls, I'm good to go shoot three shots. And that's not only helping you practice to try to get as consistent of um, you know, muscle memory there as possible, but it kind of gives you an idea of hey, I can hold a two inch group of a hundred yards, so that means that two hundred yards if I have a steady rest and I can probably hold about a four inch group, So you know that can give you confidence and kind of lets you know, um, you know at what distances you have business taking shots versus at what distances you you know you really should be um, should be careful. Um. And I guess the last thing I say there is don't don't be discouraged by you know what if you shoot a three shout group and say it's like a they're three inch extreme spread or something, I mean, that's that's that's pretty common. Um. You know, great shooters can shoot great groups, but not everybody is a great shooter. And you know, for deer hunting, you don't have to be the best shot in the world. But a three group hun yards more than adequate for making an ethical clean and kill on. So when then, I guess the follow up question that then is you know if if that's the right way to site in and you know, it sounds like it's you know a fairly yeah, it's it's a process you have to go through, right. You need to shoot several times, see where that group is a justice sight, shoot several times adjust. Um. A lot of people I think do that to some degree. They excited and they feel like they're pretty much on zero or close enough, and then they go out hunting for the rest of the season, and they might the next year might come around and they'll just say, hey, last year I was zeroed in, I'll go out go out hunt again. Or maybe they'll go out to the range and they'll shoot once, make sure they hit pretty close to the bull, and say, hey, I'm good, I'm gonna go hunting. Um, is that okay to do? Or do you think there should be some kind of consistent practice with a gun? And then if that's the case, what would you say a good practice regiment with a firearm should look like? Okay, I'll say this to start with. Up. Yeah, I know a lot of your listeners are pretty hardcore deer hunters, probably a vast majority or with her are of which are archery hunters. And I know most archery hunters. I know, when it's June and it's in the summertime, we're out after work and we're shooting our bows a couple of nights a week at least it's work. We're practicing quite a bit with archery. And you know, the good thing about a farm is you don't necessarily you don't have to practice as much as as you do with archery. But lack of practice should not be I don't think it should be an excuse. Um. There are obviously not everybody can shoot a firearm in the backyard like they might be able to shoot a bow. But there are always that you you can practice. Uh. Like I've mentioned earlier is dry fire. So um, there are a lot of like action shooters and stuff out there, or that a huge portion of their practice regiment is involved. Um, I mean dry fires, dry fire in the basement. So um. You know the real the important thing when you're when you're talking dry fire is you know if you have your your room, that you keep all your hunting gear in your closet or you know whatever, when you when you're dry fire, and you need to make sure that whatever ammo is available for that gun is locked up and completely put away because the life thing you wanted to do is shoot a hole in your roof and your cat whatever. Um, But that that's a really cheap, peavy way, and that's that's it's it's the same thing. It's muscle memory. Um. You know you're focusing on when you pull the trigger. UM, that you hear, that you hear and feel the click as you look through the scope, and the crosshairs on the scope is where you want to be every time you pull the trigger. So as far as that goes, I would recommend every year prior to getting out and hunting, because because when you hunt, you know you're walk into the woods, you might you have the potential to jar or bump or accidentally um cause something to to to move UM. So I would say once a year at least before you go hunting, you need to go out to the range and just shoot it. And and honestly, I've gotten to the point where I'll go out and either shoot three shots and if they're where I want, UM, back the gun up and I'm ready. I'm ready to go UM. And then at least I know I can go into the woods with confidence saying, hey, my guns where it should be. I just need to you know, to execute it. Okay, I'm speaking of executing um, the actual shot process with a firearm. I've heard lots of different things about people that say, you know, hold your breath while you're holding the pulling the trigger, or pull the trigger when you're exhaling or pull the trigger when you're breathing in or all all these different things. What is your opinion on the correct actual trigger pulling process when you when you've got the target in your sight and you're ready to go, what should you do? UM? Typically, what what they'll teach like, UM it's cniper schools and stuff like that, would be you would you would inhale, you would partially exhale, and then you would break the trigger. So you don't inhale all the way and hold your breath, but you don't, UM, you don't inhale. You don't necessarily break the shot in the middle of a breath. You know, you would you would exhale partially and pause UM to make the shot. UM. As far as that goes, there's there's a lot of different techniques to doing it, and my advice would be whatever works for you, go with it to you know, if you if you do better with a full a full breath in your lungs whenever you you know, full of trigger, then you know, stick with what's comfortable for you, because in the heat of the moment, chances are you might not even remember that, oh, I'm not supposed to hold my breath all the way I need to let out, you know, half a breath or or whatever. True. Yeah, I can definitely a test to in the moment of truth. I sometimes don't even remember who I am, let alone, how how much of a breath I should take? So h So, we've we've got our gun, we've got sighted in, we've practiced a few times. I think the next thing, at least I think that we probably need to start addressing is cleaning or taking care of that gun. Um. Can you walk us through a little bit in regards to what kind of maintenance or cleaning you should do with your gun? Either? Well, I guess all both before the season, during the season, and after. What does that look like? Um? So I guess before the season, Um, I did not. I talked about studying in the rifle and after you are comfortable where where your point of impact is, after you've got it sighted in. I do not recommend touching. I don't recommend cleaning the boar at all, um, because we look the guys do. Um that's niper school. If they as soon as they change, as soon as they clean the barrel, they fire like five or ten fouling shots to get it to get it back to the dirty condition where it's where it's more consistent, because if you think about it, if you you can't possibly uh clean your gun for every single shot, So your first shot is going to be from a clean board, and every shot after that it's going to be from a dirty board. UM. So I do not recommend cleaning. You know, if you want to clean once a year or a roman like a quarterly patched down through the boar when you get um, when you get done for the seasons, and that's certainly, um a good idea, but I don't think that it's uh, I guess the way that is coming from as I grew up, and it was, well, if you took the gun out and went hunting, you need to clean it when you're done. Um. And and that's not necessarily with the board in particular, it's not necessarily um you know, the best practice as far as the rest of the gun goes. Uh. Really, you're you're just trying to keep I mean honestly, you're just trying to keep it from resting. So um, you know, there's a there's a lot of different gun lubricating products, like the ram oil is a common one and so just an oily rag, wiping down the exterior, wiping down the moving parts so that, um, you know, you don't have any exposed surfaces that don't have some sort of um, you know, lubricant on them to prevent the rest uh during the season. I don't typically do too much with mine unless you know, if if I get out and it's it's raining or it gets damned for whatever reason, definitely do not want to leave it in the case or or or store it after it's been wet without taking it out as soon as you get home and just wipe it down with an orley rag and that'll that'll prevent you from from having any you know, rest spots or um, things like things of that nature. Um. And then after the season, uh, like I said, if you can choose to to clean the board, but you if you did choose to clean the boar after the season, I would definitely recommend during a couple of follow up shots the next year when you were ready to take it out again to confirm that you're where you think, um you need to be. Now all that that I'm assuming that applies to rifles and shotguns, right, but um, if you're use the muzzleloader. It's a very different story, right, yes, And that's uh, honestly, that's been a source of my pain growing up, was with trying to figure out how to be consistent with muzzleloaders. Um. So, you know, muzzleloaders in general use black powder or pirated X or triple seven or what have you, and they all they all leave a lot more residue in the board than your your typical centerfire rifle cartridge. Um. So, what I've run into in the past is I'll shoot one shot to my muggleloader and I'll reload it and haven't touched the thing, and then the next shot will be you know, a foot away or whatever. And I've learned, um that one of the real critical things is you really need to make sure your bullet is seated to the same depth every time. And in a good way to accomplish that is going to be um. After after every shot, you can run a a wet patch. So I think they cabella cells actually a container that's just full of remoistened patches that have some sort of pattern solving on there. So you you shoot and then you you run a wet patch through there, then run a dry patch right behind it and then then reloaked. And when I've when I started doing that, I've taken the orders that I thought could could honestly not hit the boat side of the bond, and I've got into where I am very comfortable, um, you know, shooting with them and knowing that I'm gonna hit within answer two where I'm in every time. UM, So that I guess the best the best way to make sure that you're getting the same bullet sitting depth every time is take the take the clean gun and load it once and then you need to so you load the pottery and the bullet or sabo in there, and then you would put your ramrod as far down into the barrel as it'll go. And then I take like a knife or a screw driver and score the ramrod so that show as you with a perfectly clean gun, that the powder and the bullet needs to be feeded to this depth. And so then from that point on, anytime you UM loaded, you can use the ramarot essentially as a measuring stick to make sure that your bullet and your powder are loaded to the poplar depths. Another thing that does is um Occasionally people will leave muzzle loaders loaded, so you know, not everybody wants to shoot the muzzle loader into the ground or whatever every after every hunt, so a lot of people will leave them loaded for a season, or sometimes a season turns into the next season. Well that's a good way to know, Hey, this one's already loaded. I don't need to dump another load of powder or charge of powder and the bullet in there, because then you could really have a problem. Yeah, that would that would be a problem with wasn't it. Yeah, And it's been done a lot more times than you. I just imagine the Looney To Dunes where Elmer Fudge shoots the gun and banana peals backwards exactly. Yeah, that's uh, that can be a little scary. I've I've always I've always felt, you know, when shooting a muzzle loader, there's always that small little bit of like unknown with those guns where you worry if you did something a little wrong, it might not quite go the way you wanted to. Um. But you know, I guess moving on to the final step for a gun hunter, We've got our gun, we've got it sighted and practiced, we've got a clean radar rock and roll. Now when we're actually out there hunting. You know, would you say that a deer hunter strategy should be significantly different with a gun than what they might have when they're out there bow hunting. And if so, you know, what do you think of those basic big differences. Well, and the beauty of a gun is you do have a lot more range than than with the bow. Um, So there is the potential that it would be a better strategy to hunt, say the stand that has a lot you can see a lot further from from expands, so you know, potentially the better strategy to do that. On the same token, you know, maybe the deer don't like, you know, the area where you can see as far because they know they can be seen from further away. So I guess from a from a strategy of where the deer are gonna be, that's up. That's up to you to decide, I guess, but I I personally like to hunt in areas where I can see a little bit farther than um maybe as typical for some of my my bow hunting setups. Yeah, and on the distance, on the distance side of things, there's been a lot of talk relatively recently. It's been talked about quite a bit over many years, but just recently, the Boone and Crockett Club released a statement. Um, I think it was earlier this year, late last year regarding the ethics of long range shooting. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, you know, just your personal opinion on how to set an appropriate maximum distance for it for yourself. And then you know what you think about long distance shooting and is that you know, is that an ethical choice when you're talking about shooting six hundred yards at an animal? Okay? Um, So what I would say is that I think it's personally, I don't feel that it's ethical for someone to shoot at an animal at a distance further than what they've ever shot at, you know, on the range. So you know, you shouldn't be testing the waters by shooting at an animal, you know, because what happened? Do you shoot it in the leg, you shoot it in the guts? Um? You know you're you're really not doing the animal um in your favors obviously by doing that. So I don't I think your maximum range should be the furthest you've ever practiced that or pretty close to it. You know, if if the deer comes out at three one, five, and you've practiced three hundred, then you know, I understand, but UM, you know, to to further your point about, you know, the ethics of shooting long range six and seven hundred yards. UM. My, personally, if you can get six hunters or six hundred yards from our animal, um, then you can get three hundred yards from it. I don't see. I don't see that, um, six hundred, seven hundred yard shots are required for people to be successful. UM. I don't think there's really any hunting situations or there are. There are very few hunting situations where where the only chance of success is taking that seven hundred yard shot. UM. That being said, some guys just like the challenge of shooting at long range. And my opinion on that is, you know, if you practice and you are comfortable at that range, and you can make um a quick clean kill at that range, then then wear it out. I don't you know, I don't personally have a problem with that aspect of it. But I do have a problem with the guys that are, you know, going out and and you know, shooting at seven hundred yards at a you know, at an animal that you know they've never practiced out past hundred yards in their lives. Yeah, and I think that applies right to any kind of hunting, whether you're out there with a firearm or a gun, a rightful shotgun or bow. You know, you should never shoot beyond what you're very confident in and that you've done before. You you've demonstrated the past, you can accurately and ethically kill an animal at that range. Like you said, when you're actually out in the field hunting, that's not the time to test the waters and just see, hey maybe if I love one out there, maybe I'll hit It's you know, that's not the ethical choice. That's not, in my opinion, the right way to do it. So, but it's definitely like you also, like you mentioned, though, it's a personal choice on what your maximum ranges. And like you said, if you can do that ethically and cleanly at whatever range is, that's that's you're your choice. So I'm curious, Dan over there being the least gun hunting experience, do you have any other questions for Luke from up actually in the field standpoint about you know, tips or tricks or anything like that. No, I'll tell you what what this has done for me though, is I've always wanted to, um try and try out a muzzleloader. I've never I don't even know if I've shot a muzzleloader before. And um, I have a lot of friends telling me that it's it's pretty fun and and I think I'm gonna this. This podcast might have been the tipping point for me as far as just getting a starter muzzleloader and just starting to practice with it. That's awesome. I think that's a good idea. Yeah, Luke. Then for you, now that you've inspired my co host Dan to go out there and get a muzzleloader and try his hand at gun hunting. UM, do you have any final party advice for someone out there, whether they're new like Dan or someone who's been a you know, using firearm for a long time, any other party advice when it comes to hunting with a gun that everyone should keep in mind moving forward this season. Uh. Yeah, just one thing I would say is that when we actually get into the field, you want to be set up in a position where you can get the most steady rest possible because of the key to being um accurate and being precise with your shooting is being able to have you know, you've got to have a steady rest, so you know, whatever means necessary, whether it's a bipod on your gun or a shooting rail around your tree stand or whatever. I can't stress enough how important it is to have a steady press, because it doesn't matter how accurate your gun is, um you know, if not many people can make, you know, a off hand shot at a hundred fifty yards, especially when it's the beer of a lifetime and you're you're you're barely standing upright without falling down from shaking. That's a that's a that's definitely something that people need to keep in mind, especially for the bow hunter turned gun hunter, for someone who's out there with you know, just a regular port will hang on tree stand that doesn't have any kind of rest. That's something I've struggled with in the past. I've got all my stands hung up to be bow hunting, and then when I do go out there with a firearm, you know, there is no good rest. So I've started springing a shooting stick, and I've actually cut a hole in a tennis ball and stuck that tennis ball on the bottom of my shooting stick so that when I use that shooting stick and I set it down to rest on the base of my tree stand platform. It doesn't go through the little holes in the metal. Um. So that's what I've used to try to get a good rest and that's helped. Um. But I think to your point, getting a shooting rail if you're in a tree stand, or you know, having specific gun hunting stands like a box blind or ground blind or whatever you're using, Um, that's super important. Do you have any advice? I guess the final question when it comes to um, you know, when you're shooting on the like maybe you're walking to your stand, um and you're standing or you're caught, you know, surprised anything any tips for getting that kind of off hand shot and doing that the best possible way. Yeah, Um, you know off off hand is is tough. Uh. What I would say is that if you anticipate being in a situation where you you know, say you have a long rape as your stand, I would I would spend some time at the ranches practicing off hand. And uh, you know a lot of it's timing because no one's gonna be able to hold the cross hair is perfectly steady off hand, So you you really got to work on the hand eye coordination to U tube blakes the trigger at the time where the where the scope is in the right place. Um. So I would just recommend practice. And you can also practice dry fire um the same way. UM So that's probably what I would recommend. Okay, awesome. Is there any value to um two different you know, shooting positions, like, if possible, should they kneel or sit? Um or? I mean, from what I understand, you know, kneeling is good, see it seated is even better and prone, you know, laying down flat as the absolute best? Is that true? And if possible, if you have the time to do it in the view and stuff, should you try to get in one of those positions rather than just standing up? Uh? Yeah, I would say the closer to the ground you are, the more stable you're gonna be. And and that pretty much falls right along with you know, standing versus kneeling, versus sitting versus prom um. So in anything you can do to kind of lock your body into or is it locked the gun into a more stable position, whether it's a planting against you know, using a tree as a as a as a prop or whatever, or backpack anything you can do, um, to to get more stable closer to the ground. Um, you know you're you're going to be helping yourself. Awesome, all right, Well, uh, I think that me and Dan here are well prepared with some great new information about how to you know, be better firearm hunters. And I definitely know that this season I'll be I'll be out there with my muzzleloader and my rifle at times, and I might even get a shotgun this year do a little bit of gun hunting here in southern Michigan without needing to clean my muzzlower at the time. So, um, this has been This has been super helpful for me and hopefully for a lot of other people out there. Um, because I know there's a lot of gun hunters listening to our podcast and we have done a lousy job of talking about it. So so thank you Luke for helping us, for making sure we can talk on that topic and with an expert like you giving us the information. I'm a problem. Thank you guys for having me. All right, Well, that's going to be it for us today. So as always, we'd like to thank our partners who helped make the Wired to Hunt podcast possible. So big thank you to sick Gear, Trophy, Ridge Bear Archery, Redneck Blinds, on Terra Maps, Hunts Soft Lacrosse boots, and the White Tail Institute of North America. And thank you to all of you joining us today. I hope we were able to offer you some helpful insight into the gun side of the deer hunting world. And most importantly, I hope you enjoyed your time with us, so have a great week and stay while you're done.

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