00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wire to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host Mark Kenyon. In this episode number nineteen, Today we're joined by Jim Shocky, one of the most legendary figures in the world of hunting. The topic of our conversation hunting northern white tails. This is an awesome conversation, So get pumped, get set, and let's go. All right, Welcome to the Wire to Hunt Podcast. Within this afternoon is my co host Dan Johnson, and joining us is our very special guest today, Jim Shocky. Welcome to the show, Jim, thanks for having me. Yeah, we're we're thrilled to have you joining us. And I know you've got a lot going on this time of year, so so it means a lot. And how are you this afternoon? Uh? You know, I'm I'm actually good because I'm at home. Any time i'm at home, I'm I'm a pretty happy camper, kind of the opposite of everybody else on the planet that likes to go camping. And I'm I'm pretty happy to be at home for a few days. A year. That is nice. I imagine that you are gone a ton, so I can see why that would be. That would be really nice. Now, you know, for most of our listeners, Jim, I'm sure you don't need an introduction. You're one of the most renowned big game outfitters in the world, and your television shows have been some of the most highly acclaimed um An outdoor television history. Really um But with that said, we always like to learn a little bit something new about every one of our guests. So I was hoping if if you don't mind, if you could share just a little bit about, you know, maybe how you got started in the industry and outfitting, and maybe how you got to this point that you're at now today. Sure, yeah, I um containing exactly what. It was easy and I were just married in nineteen eighty four, in November, and so nine five, you know, by June, um she was actually we had our first son, Brandon on the way, so so she was she has morning. Second, I had a lot of time on my hands, and I thought, if I had all this time, this would be when I should try writing. I mean, I loved I grew up reading Jack O'Connor and out to Our Life and Peterson's Hunting magazines, and and I thought I had tried my hand at writing, since definitely there wasn't much else going on around our house at that point. So so I wrote my first article back then, and that's really how I started into the hunting industry. So that would be thirty years ago. Now wow, and since then, you know, from the from the writing side of things, you know, how did you take that next step into out mating and then eventually TV? Was that by chance or did you plan that? How did that happen? And that was kind of both. The writing was going quite well, um we uh, you know, I was mostly writing up in Canada at that time, but then twenty Night with muzzleloading. He saw my writing and saw that I was I was using a muzzle quite a bit, and so he contacted me and invited me down to a couple of industry on where he met they really fancy guys famous to me, you know, like Judd Cooney and Jim Zumble at that point it was Bill Jordan was around there, Larry why shouldn't we all in that one hunt? So I that started me into the American side of things, you know, he like I say, Tony introduced me to everybody, and I got to start writing for the American magazines. At that point, I knew I was going to make a living in the in the hunting industry. I just know what that might be. I mean, I still have my antique business is doing at that time, laying and selling antique furniture, refinishing it um. So I just didn't know if I'd be selling outdoor T shirts, so if I'd be outfitting when I When I finally pushed a few numbers, I realized it wasn't a bunch of money and T shirts for me, but I could make a living. So I so that I bought my first helpfing Territory. I remembered my wife and I had a long conversation with This was ninety two at the and we we mortgaged our house through the help board every pain I could, and and bought my first outfit in character I mean Island, because I was because I was already in the writing world. The manufacturers pretty much knew who I was, and anyone with a television show knew who I was. You remember Marca l Barbara from the North American Hunter magazine and their television showed by the same name, contacted me and asked if I would, you know, take them out on a hunt, and they were going to film it for ESPN. And that was my first my filming debut, so that that was the luck part of it. Um. After that once actually aired a lot of the other television people at that time, which they weren't a lot of it. It was a pretty small world, you know. They most of them contacted me over time, and but I guide them and take them in a hunt in my territory. And and because I was in front of the camera so much, it just sort of became second nature. Actually worked with Bill Jordan and David Blunton and the guys that Real fields for five years on PNN, and then uh I started my own show in ninety three was the first year it add sorry two thousand three continues out. So so it was it was kind of a little bit a lot, great place, right time, with the right product and and a lot of really good teachers mentoring me as I came up to the ranks. That's awesome. Yeah, it seems like in so many cases that's um, you know, we're we're blessed with good people to help us, and many of these different opportunities end up coming up and come because of that. So that's pretty neat to hear. Now, speaking of your of your television shows, before we start diving into white tails, which is what I really wanted to focus on today, I do know that you've got a new project that you just started this summer, and that is your new show Uncharted. So that said, you know, could you fill us in a little bit about you know, what Uncharted is all about and why this project is something that you're so excited about. True, it's actually a co production between ourselves and the Outdoor Channel and it's uh it's one of, if not the first one hour outdoor program um hearing I think five times of weeks. So you know, the Outdoor Channels invested a lot of time and effort, you know, and indologence to this project so that from the production side, the production values are higher than we've ever attained with any of our preview shows. And with an hour long we get to now tell the story a lot of the a lot of the storyline we had to leave on the edit room floor in exchange for almost montage music video type field to the TV shows half an hour. When you take out all the commercials and take out the intro, and take out you know, the you know thanks at the end and and pilots whatnot, you end up with about seventeen minutes. And then that's not a lot to tell a story. So now with an hour, we can actually tell a story a lot better. On the characterization, we could spend more time on that. Uh you know, we can talk a little bit more about what hunting means. Now. Now it's not as fast paced as what some of the guys have we used to but now you get to sit there for an hour and enjoy this this program. And we're all over the world into the uncharted regions of the world, which which for us, you know, is to be pretty uncharted, and the pumping the genie that over the air and you know, the west coast of British Columbia on some unknown Salmon's teams and Courier standard believe it's airing right now. Uh Don will be off in Pakistan and up to the Arctic with the Inuit. We've already filmed in Paraguay. I think I mentioned that just when you were are talking to for the program. Um and I'm off to Russia right now in the taucas Mountains for you know, the next bit of filming. And it was that schedule him places like Morocco and Liberia, which right now with the Ebola outbreak is it may have to be revisited, but it's for us. I'm charged. There's pretty wild places and where you know, but that's that's you know, that's on the surface, that's the locations they actually charged. It is is more about expanding your own or pushing back your own en ball. You know, whoever you are, wherever you are, if you're hunted, you know, maybe it's idiots, you know, going out in the dark in the back fort you for somebody that uncharted territory for them. And that's more of what the kill is about. It's hopefully inspirational to all outdoors people. I love that kind of philosophical angle on the more mental or spiritual side of what uncharted means when it comes to hunting. And I think, you know, Dan and I talked about this a lot that there's a lot more to it than just a place or kill. There's there's a whole lot of memories and experiences and learning lessons that that all kind of factor into it. So that's awesome. Everything I've seen uncharted looks incredible and from everyone I've talked to, there's been just rave reviews. So I'm excited to see what the rest of the season has to offer to But yeah, well hopefully, hopefully it's gonna it's gonna resonate with all the viewers. I mean, that will be the most important. Well, we'll see, and I am I hope, sorry, I tortually believe like you're saying that all hunters know that it's not just about to kill. You know, it's not just at the size of the animal. There's so much more to hunting, you know, family, humor, event your culture. These are that that's the most important person. The actual animal is a nice bonus and that's what makes a hunting. But but it's absolutely spiritual. Though. Doorses are cathedral? Yep? I couldn't. I couldn't say any better myself. Now, with that that all said, though, I guess kind of taking a slight right turn, I did want to make sure while we have you to to kind of pick your brain a little bit about what we really focus here on wire to hunt about. And that's white tails. And I know you run a major white tail outing outfitting business in Saskatchewan, and I've seen you do a lot of hunting for white tails across you know, the northern part of the United States or North America and Canada. Um, so that in mind, my thought today was that we could chat with you a little bit about specifically hunting big northern white tails. And it sounds seems like something that that you kind of specialize in. So to kick things off, Jim, for those of us down here in the Midwest or in the southern US that might not know, you know, is there really a difference between our year down here in the South and the deer up north and Canada? And it is so how oh, there's no question. I mean morphologically, you get a big Saskatchewan white tail, block a big bush buck. Uh. They'll weigh three pounds and and we've actually weighed them upwards of three fifty um. And and that the mass on those deer is all in the front end. They literally look like a bowl coming through the forest. They're just so built up on the front end. And you don't see that in any of the southern deer, the southern dear you know, with all due respect, are really pretty. I mean they're they're gorgeous, they're beautiful, you know, rocks and long times that they're really pretty? Are our bucks up in the north are actually kind of uglies? Um again, with all due respect to any to any white tail bucks that are listening to the podcast. You know. The The other thing is is the antlers up. It's like I'm in my office right now looking at probably twenty mounts and European mounts, Uh of my biggest bucks I've ever taken, and there, you know, they're all pretty nasty looking box. I mean to try and find a really typical, uh, you know, nice clean five by five is not that easy. Um. You know, like I've taken many in the one of these my highest is in the one nineties, and many more in the one seventies, and only one of those has ever netted Boone and Crockett in one seventy and it's really the only clean, perfect five by five I've ever taken. Uh, They're just not not that common. So we you know, again, morphologically bides bigger uh antler wise, they're heavier. They doesn't show up in the score because mass doesn't amount for much on the Boone and crocket sci scoring. You know, masses is the least important. So you know, our our bucks go the antler mass. But but that doesn't count from us. So they look great if you like, they're gnarly looking nasty rocks. Um, So I'd say those are the two biggest differences, just the way the lot of rocks look on the body side of our deer in the north. Yeah. Yeah, from you know what I've seen on videos and photographs and stuff that seems to kind of sync up with with a live scene. Now, another thing I'm curious about. My wife always likes to give me a hard time about the fact that when I go up into northern Michigan and I kill a deer up there, she claims they taste and they smell bad compared to the deer that I killed down in southern Michigan or a different part of the country that's you know, feeding on corn and beans and whatnot. How do the bucks up in Canada taste? They taste great? I mean I would I would defy anybody to show me a state served in the fancy assess for in New York City that's any better than a than a good venice and stake from a northern buck. Uh I, don't you know, you know, dear to me, dear a, dear, they taste pretty good, no matter whether from it these obviously are not corn fed for the most part up in northern Saskatchewan. But so maybe you might want to revisit your your wife with the message he's trying to give you. Maybe you're you're traveling too far away from whom you're going to want to she went to the closer to home, who knows, But but you know, the meat on the on the only speaking for Saskatchewan. I hunted Alberta extensively in British Columbia's lob personally never hunted a Manitoba. But sorry about that. But there's someth trying to reach me in my office right now. Um so you know, no, the dear great, It tastes great, excellent. There's not a uh I, like I said, to find anybody who find a better tasting steak no matter what the meat in the Fanciers restaurant in the world. Nice. Well, I'm gonna have to chat with my wife about this and see if she's playing mind games with me. May well be Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be surprised. Now, how about how these dear behave? Um, you know there's a lot of talk down here about you know, certain bucks. Maybe a buck in Iowa, where there's less hunting pressure, might act and behave differently than a buck in New York State, where there's tons of hunting pressure. How do you feel those northern white tails behave compared to maybe the average deer that most guys are hunting. Well, I don't think there's any question that the deer in the north uh, you know, northwest of Canada has very very little hunting pressure compared to other parts of North America, so they don't Like, we don't use tree stands. I mean that's probably killed one buck in a tree stand in my life up in Canada, one that I can remember. Maybe maybe too, I think I think I stayed in the windmill one time. Um, So you know, we don't we don't have to go up in trees or bucks, don't you know? I've seen those ones down south. I hunted down and while it was in Kentucky, Um, they were walking in looking up. I mean I've never seen that in Saskatchewan. Jarty, you know, the deer down there just are so much more sweatston are there a lot of you have never seen a human being before. Um, you know that they'll walk right, they move around diurnally. You know they're not they're not nocturnal. They can get nocturnal more certainly. You know, I be dependent on the weather. If it's hot weather, they'll they'll move around at night when it's cool. But it's not because of hunting perture for the most part. Um So, so I would say on a scale one to ten, where you know those southern bucks are pushed in hunted hard. You know there are nine in a ten out of ten hours are more like two to four out of ten. You know that there is certain dear if you're looking for one particular block, they they're still not easy to get. You know, you've got to be the right place, right time. And if you stoked up with a doll, you're not going to see him during the day for x amount of days. And you know then you know, say tell us who your area picks up a doll or another part, Well, you're not hunting, you you might not see him for another few days. So they're not easy to get, but they're certainly not sophisticated relatively speaking, that's my opinion. I'm sure that you know, some of my my peers up here in Canada would be you know, pulling in right now with with nasty commas. But you know they're they're you know, in my experience, they're definitely not as with stone as the southern deer. They're easier to hunt. Interesting, what do you what do you think about all this dan coming from an Iowa perspective, Um, what kind of questions do you have about about this? For Jim, Well, I just wish that the deer that I hunted had never seen a human before. Unfortunately that's not the case. But as far as uh, you know, I'd like to go ask you kind of a broader question. You've you finded several different species of animals in several several dishes, you know, different locations throughout the entire world. My question to you is is there a similarity or a tactic or strategy that you could like relate to white tail hunting that all these animals have. You know, that's a funny, It's it's kind of a good question. And by the way, those I've taken, I think I've taken several other species around the world's ten different other species. Just so I've been a little bit of that taking on the world. You know what's interesting that I will sit for twenty days waiting for a particularly white tail buck, uh and turned down everything waiting for that buck, and be happy If I don't get a buck that season, no no problem. And I'll sit down till dark every day, you know, in the cold swaskatchew weather and leatherly second of it. That same tactic will work on any animal in any place around the world, but we never use it because it's just the white tail deer somehow. You know, they're magical, they're they're they're they're wonderful that they're what we all grew up hunting. It's a number one big game animal on the planet. And we all of us, I guess, kind of you know, kind of big game behind Keith on on white tail deer and most of us. So they have us to hold a special place on our heart, and we will sit, we will wait, We will have the day after the after day waiting quietly, silently. Internationally, that doesn't happen so much, you know, I get, I get it's tough to sit stand in the tongue waiting for a black frinted diaker for you know, two days straight and when you go nuts, well the twenty day straight and the white tail be filled every second of the day. And I don't know what that is. It's it's it's I guess it's just the spell that white tails cast over us as hunters U compared to anything else on the planet. So so mostly around the world it's spot and stock um, you know, like red stag, over and Page. You know, you might do a little try calling them, but you know it, it's still so the most part of spot in stock and a fee instances where you'll you'll still hunt, you know, sneaking through kind of get a shot at them, um, and even fewer instances where you'll actually sit patiently and wait for an animal day after day after day. Um. And maybe it's a function of you know, you're not over there for as many days as you are the season. Here's what three months. While most of us are around for three months. We might only get you know, weekends off, but we still can go back. And you kind of wanted to be over but you kind of also don't want it to be over um, but when you're internationally, you really kind of want to get that animal and and you know, because it's not that easy to get back to those places. So it's not like you, you know, failing at the aim woman come back in two weeks for another weekend, and when it's a major effort just to get there. So it's a little different focus on you know, maybe a little higher value placed on game animals opposed to white kilt, where it's just hunting the animal. So yeah, that the practices would apply internationally, but the most ass acacious way of killing white hilt sitting still awaiting, that's not something we use internationally as much as one would expect. It's interesting, Yeah, very interesting, And I'm curious, you know, given what you just said about the kind of unique relationship you have with with white tail hunting compared to most everything else you're doing, would you say that white tail honey is your favorite game to hunt or or is it something else? Yeah, that's a that's a that's a question that I've been asked before. Here here's how I'm going to coach it. My favorite big game animal to hunt in the world is moose. It's moose and you know, particularly ill asking uk and moose up in the Yukon during the run, you know, the first start of the run in September. That's my favorite, big amount all the hunt in the world. Now, if you if you just repose the question and ask me, you know, if you could only hunt one big game animal for the rest of your life, what would it be. That's a different, different answer from me. It would be whitetail deer. And I love hunting moose and hunt them as long as I can. But but if you took everything away and I can only hunt one animal, it would be white tail deer. Um. Again, I think it's it's a lot of our value system as hunters is based on high dear. That's what we've learned on. That's our steel set, what we all cut our teeth on. Whitetail deer, and you know that hunting him. Since I was fourteen years of age, I got my first one. Internets, I think that's forty two years ago. That's a long time ago, you know, but you know, I certainly wasn't hunting moose back then. I think it was sixteen before I one of my first ones, and many years when I didn't hunt moose to my twenties and and you know, but I always had a white tail deer and I always hope to be able to hunt Wait till dear, I and my dad, uh you know that his last year last his last year in two thousand and twelve, and he was eighty five years old, eight actually six and uh, I didn't didn't make it till his They just missed the season by a year this past year. But I mean he hunted right until literally the last year of his life. It would be tough to do that with moose, but you can absolutely do it with white tail, as long as you know, you have family members at all sort of take you out there and help you out a little bit. So yeah, wait, waite tail, Dear, that's the one animal that I would I would always want to be able to hunt my entire life. I love it. Yeah. They really do hold a special place and in so many people's hearts. Um, they just kind of they get in your head and your heart and your gut and you can't get rid of them, that's for sure. No, exactly the part to hunting white tails. Hunters white tails hunters white tails, same difference, no difference, absolutely so taking a turn back to back to tactics kind of. Um, I'm curious when it comes to these Canadian white tails, or Northern white tails in general, what is your go to tactic. I know that you're helping with your outfitting business, helping a lot of guys get maybe the first Northern white tail. You know, what is it that you're helping these guys do to make these unsuccessful? Well, I mean the single biggest sack on you know, that neutralizes the skill set, a neutralizes the skill level of every hunter. Hears the fact that we can bait up and up in Saskatchewan can't be in Alberta ken bait in British Columbia. Um, you know a lot of guys will turn their nose up and say, well, bab who, it's unethical, blah blah. But you know, we it's very difficult to go a food clue up there. You're going to see some maybe nine days at the most, and you know, it's it's just such a remote country. It's not it's not a practical thing. And up in Canada too, it's not so much private land up in the North Country. It's we call it crown law land. It belongs to the government, which means you can't just go in there and dig up to a capatch and plant you know, some kind of seeds. You can't do that. So so we're you know, it's very carefully controlled what you can't date with even like no weed seeds and nothing invasive. Um, so let's if you know, I, you know, I don't disagree in certain situations, maybe being there isn't the most ethical if there's other options. But up there, when you're sitting in a in a forest that's literally you know, millions of square miles square with with square miles with no fences, know nothing between you and you know, the north pole until you hit the place to be in the shield, I mean, you're not allowed to build food flocks. What options are there? While beating is a one way that you can You can focus the doughs in an area and the bucks will come true. Now then they're not necessarily feeding, but they're they're certainly coming through to check the doors. And what it becomes in is is its pure patients game. Um. You know, sitting six days from dawn to a dark on a stand when it's you know, twenty blow zeros, it takes a lot of desire um and and a lot of patients and mental mental focus. So there, you know, a different, different skin set. Now, that's how you that's how you make everybody equal in the playing field. Just to whoever's got the most perseverance is gonna get them, get the biggest deer eventually, and they're gonna be understand when it comes by barring pure luck. That all said, and I will bait. I mean they don't absolutely, um, but I don't do it because it's the best way for me to personally hunt. It's the way that we can best get the animals on camera coming through the woods. Um, you know, seeing what they do all day long and there it's beautiful to see. It's like catching release. It's it's a true catch and release form of hunting. You can bring them in, you can look at them. I'm not going to shoot them, going to walk away. Attention and release and you can enjoy the day. You know, it's as a deer doing what they're doing in front of you. The better way to kill a big box and this is any big buck. And I truly believe if I know that a certain set of tracks is made by a big block and there's fashion on the ground. I'll kill a deer. I'll kill it. It's just I'll track it down and I'll kill it, pure and simple. I will get that deer. Uh. It makes for a real crappy television footage, nothing to share with anybody. So you'll see glimpses, pits and pieces and you know, you know, a patch of hair, there's an alloy that boom and you know, shot goes off your you know, it makes for lousy footage, but it's it's a darn good way, an effective way to hunt, the best way. I will kill that deer. At the end of that set of track, there's the deer that I'm trying to kill. Um. By the same token, rattling works really well. Still hunting a combination of stand hunting, you know, standing meaning literally standing sitting on a stump somewhere, combine with moving through the forest carefully still hunting. That that family does it in Michigan. Um, what's her name is? Like, you know, come to me. But the devote Yeah, that's annoys. You know, they do it. They still hunt and they get you know, the flash shots of the fantastical way hunt really challenging. Um, and if you combine rattling, still hunting, a little bit of stand hunting and tracking, and you know, it's a better way to get a big gear and get an individual big dear as long as you know that here made those tracks. Well, so yeah, there's other ways to do it up, but the most efficient way for the average hunters to come up and and sit down and stand and just enjoy enjoy the days as the deer come in and you know, again it's totally controllable, only allowed so much beat to understand and um, but yeah, that that, that, honestly is is the best way to get the deer up in that big bush country. Or you can sit on a scrape if you don't want to use bait, that's fine too, that's everybody's choice. You can sit on a scrape and and you know a buck will come in eventually, and that's also a good way you're doing. You're just talking to enjoy the day as much. There's no dose around to watch, no younger bucks. When is the when is the northern rut? Is that early November late October as well, or is it even earlier than that? Not? Its later, it's uh I've always felt that the November one was the peak of the rut for White Hills, and November eleventh is really the serious start of the rut and is the end of the run. Now there is you know, you can you can round women before the rut put or in late October early November particularly, and you can you know, get them still doing sub learning activity after after December, depending on the year, depending on the what the moon is doing. But the peak of the round would be the twenty one November based on you know, my four decades of hunting them up in the north. Well, that's interesting, that's really interesting because the further you get into the to the north south, you get into the northern hemisphere, it seems like the rut gets later and later and later, and then you know, you get way south and it's like in December or January. So that's just almost contradicting science or some of that. That light is part of the breeding cycle. The amount of life. There isn't a day and you know one thing and Jim correctly, well, I mean, I guess it's relative to the you know, maybe our dear just have a different circadian number they're here. Maybe maybe they when they hit even a half hours of daylight, that's when they start to run. I don't know. I just say one thing I think, Um, I think I've I've heard somewhere, and I think it makes biological sense. Is that the farther north you get, those deer are going to be experiencing winters that last later, and so in order for their fawnds to survive, they need those fawnds being dropped later in the spring. Um. So I think that might have something to do with the fact that, you know, deer breeding later in northern Canada, because you know, if they breed, you know, late October and they're dropping their fawns when there's two ft of snow still, that's not going to be you know, a great situation. So I think there might be something to do with that. But I guess that's just yeah, I'm sure that's reverse behavior revolution. I guess any deer that had their phones earlier in February and March, you know, they died, they were selected out. So yeah, that would that would absolutely make sense. Yeah. So, so something you said you minutes ago, Jim, really caught my attention, and it's something that we haven't really talked much about here on the podcast, so I really like to pick your brain about it. And that is tracking. I know, like you said, there's some people that still you are really big on still hunting and tracking, especially in the northern part of the country. I know in Maine that's a really big thing and some of the northeast. But can you give us a quick rundown of how you go about tracking and killing a white tail like that, because that's something that in the Midwest here, it's not really one of those really popular tactics, but I think a lot of people would be, you know, really interested to hear your take on that. Sure, Yeah, absolutely, the I mean, the first key to it is you've got to have enough lamb that you can do it on without bumping into a border fence that you can't you know, leave that that sense or leave that same stereo. So you have acres. It's a lot better to have two square miles two sections that you can you can hunt, and you need a big enough chunk of forest that you can get yourself into the forest and then stop and let let you know, sort of get with the flow of the forest. Right If it's too small a patch of brush, a bush. You you enter it into everything that was in that bush. No, you entered, I said, you need a big enough passet if animals on the far side of but don't know you're in the bush. And then you sit still and you wait and you let It's all about um, it's all about moving slowly. One of my mentors that taught me how to hunt white tails was what they call them jumpers, was Pete Mans. Each piece of piers passed away now, but he told me, Jimmy, where every piece of clothing you brought with you. This is every piece of clothing. It's it's designed for portable or weather. Plus might put layers, even more layers on the I'm gonna be cooking. And he said that'll make you move slow enough to the bush, because if you go anytopster, you'll start to sweat. So literally for me, it's uh, you know that I don't. I'll get into the bush as quietly, as slow as I can, say hunting guards into the timber. Then I'll sit still and I'll sit for an hour. Just wait this wait, and what happened. You'll start take the birds will start to come back. You know. The squirrels will start to come out. That nature gets back into its rhythom. It's it's start to imagine a pool is you throw a rock into it has ripples all over it, but eventually it calms off and everything is back to normal again. So that's what you have to do first. Then what I do when I'm really seriously still hunting for a big buck altered one step and I'll raise my bionos very slowly, and I'll look with my bionos in the forest. You know a lot of people don't do that. You have to use your binoculators because it's the only way that our eyes start to be even competitive with the deer's eyes. So a deer's eyesight. So so I take one step, I look with my scan the entire force, looking for little notches between the trees are pop my focus ring on the bio back and forth. You be depth of field. Then I'll put the bio and this is slowly. It's not lift them up quickly looking, No, this is all slowly, slowly. Then I'll take two steps and watching feeling tipene, I'll use marcus and rubbers like the rubber moccassin's with with a big wool sock, so I can steal every bench underneath me, as every twig. I know if I'm gonna bake something, to step aside and move it and feel it two steps that I look with my bios again, put it down one step and now this you do that. It'll take you hours to go four hundred yards through a forest. And remember the denner moving to hopefully and if not, if they're betted, you'll be moving in closer to them. If you're going slow enough, you'll you'll, you'll, you'll bet'll walk it in onto my my goal if the conditions are right. Again, this is the conditions are key, and as I was just before, I get to my goal. Well only an example. When you're in an aspen forest, say the deer are in aspens or poplars, the call in the north. After the first hard frost, the leaves all turn yellow. Right now, the first wind, the leaves start falling out of the trees and they're they're they're drying, they're crispy, so they're making noise right and they're rolling on their blowing across the grown they're making noise, and all those leaves falling down through the trees on a hard wind day after the first hard frost. I don't care what dow it is. You can speak up on it. I don't care how smart it is, I don't care where it's hiding. You can speak up on it. And my blows has always been to speak up closed enuff to catch one that's better without doing I'm there, I've come close enough rid. I almost can reach my arrow out and touch it. I can never reach in with And that's that's you know, there's there in lies the key to the success of still hunting. There's conditions. If it's real crunchy conditions where it seems like you're walking on snowflakes, and then why bother you? The deer are going to hear you long before you get close up. It's not a data still hunt. But if this still melts a little bit so as soft and you can walk pliantly, then that's the data still hunt. You know, the day with the country still as a data rattle or stand hunt. So so it's not about forcing a particular hunting style upon you know the conditions. It's it's more adapt to the conditions and use that hunting style that's best suited for that day. So any way that there, you know, it's it's a long, slow hunting day. It's it's and believe me, you are drained at the end of the day because you haven't gone anywhere, but you've you've you've lasted within you know, like you every single little tiny opening you can see through it, like there's little gaps, a little shooting lands. It might be hunting yards back in their way. You swear you can. Unlet's see twenty thirty yards and the deer you'll see them moving in there and you can get right among them as they're feeding in the forest as a bit. It's amazing. It's it's absolutely amazing, and it is by far the you know, to be the most strata funny way to hunt. I know you said it would make awful film, but I sure would love to see see you on a hunt like that. That sounds pretty fascinating. Yeah, you know the raining, you know, you're the rains would be if you watched me for an hour, he won't step every two minutes, and you know that would be great. Pass on, I'll pass it onto the old door and we'll see if they want to show like that. Yeah, they they might not like that idea too much? Huh? Not too much? I think you need to do a little faster paste these days. Yeah. Now, let's say if you're on a hunt like that and you cut a big track, do you if you find that big track, do you start speeding up to try to catch up to that dear? Or are you still inching along? You know what happens when you actually get that signed. Hey there was a big buck here recently. What what happens next? Okay? Well, as long as the snow conditions are right right, is there's some way that you can tell that track is fresh if the snow has been the same as it has been for weeks and there's you know, it's hard to just tracks everywhere. It's hard to tell what's new fresh snow or same melting snow. That you can tell the age of the track is really important. So once I've determined that the track is a fresh track, then you start looking at the track itself. Is it a buck there? Is it a dough? It really easy to tell. I mean, any of the buck tracks are huge. If it's a really big deer, and like I said in substatche and you'll get a three pound deer like nothing to buck and the doors won't be anywhere near that big hundred max. So you're you know, the dough is not going to be we're not going to have as big a footprints. So that's the first thing you look at. Then I look at, and this is really important, is that the length of the stride and the breadth of the chest of the deer. So the breadth of the chest if it's you know, um, you know, nine inches across, that's big. You know, a doll might have tracks that are four or five six inches backs between them, you know, with across the chest. You know, a big buck, they're massive in the front end. So you can tell right away if that's a buck by the breadth of the track, the width of it, and not only the size of it, but then also the length of the stride. You gotta remember, a big animal that three hundred three and fifty pounds is going to have a longer stride than a smaller animal. So you can tell when when those deer have a you know, pen twelve feet between you know what, you can see four of their tracks and you know it's just walking, but it's just a stride. That's much longer stride. You know it's a big animal. You know, you still don't know what the animers are, but at least you know, you know a buck track and the other thing too. If it's in the right you'll see you you can actually feel that if you let yourself just just tune into what you're looking at, you'll see that buck as he's almost swaggering like a big buck will come into the forests, he is the king of the forest. And they won't even deign to lift their their uh feed up. They'll they'll drag their hoofs through the snow that you'll see the drag marks, and they're just will swagger, you know, like they're tough boys looking for a fight or looking for a lot, but they're you know, they're definitely uh you know, behaving like like studying stunts basically. So you can see that from the track. It's another way you can tell it's about is the drag marks of the hoofs and the snow. Then you start following that, I would immediately start fallowing forget the one one to you know, two steps every five minutes, you you're you get on that track because now you know it's fresh he's somewhere ahead of you. More than likely he's better. Right, That's the key, is more than likely he is better because that's the only you're gonna catch up to him. He's gonna walk all day and all night. You'll never catch up to him. But they never do that. They always bet for a while, So so I would where I found the track isn't a better looking area if it's kind of wide open forest, or you'll be again. It's something you start to learn once you've tracked so many gears, followed so many Dear, this isn't where they're bad. They don't bet here. It doesn't feel right. They're they're they're going. He's going somewhere else, checking for those. So if he's going somewhere else and I can go somewhere else, I start following fairly quickly, all right, But the instant I get a sense that, wait a minute, he's starting to wander in his tracks a little bit. All right again, you just imagine, Yet, what's he doing. I know he's nibbling on food. Okay, If he's nimbly on food, he's not intent on getting anywhere else quickly, So that means time to slow down. Right now. And then then as the as the h fully as changes are they you know that the trees, the plants, that the type of trees, even the train mean this will start to get a little bit helio of this. Now you're starting to talk to about a place maybe more saplings. This is more like a baiting area, you know, and you'll feel it once you've tracked enough gear and you'll know, hey, I'm getting close to a betting area. He's been wandering tracts a little bit. He's not he's not cruising anymore, or the tracks were made this morning. He's been a right in here somewhere ahead of me. Now you've got to get close stuff to kill him. And that's where you stop back or drop back to the you know, one one step, you know, and glass glass, glass ahead of you everywhere around you, you know, put them down, slowly, move ahead and glass again. The biggest problem will be what happens when you hit brushes too thick that you know it's pressingly against you so much, and you know it's making noise. You've gotta be wearing fleeces is the best or wool again, if you can wear white in the snow is perfect. In Saskatchewan when you're rifle hunting, you have to wear white in rifle season, or orange your red. We'll wear white with the red cap. They can't see the white against the snow on the trees. You just look like it's almost perfect. Camel camel snow camera is even better, but it's not not allowed in rifle season. So so then you you moving so closely, so closely, and if you have to eat grunt, I'll make to go sound here in the phone. Listen, that's just like a peak snort. I can do that with my mouth. I don't have to have a I don't have to have a call of any description. So we will pretty most but but you can actually deal with your mouth. You don't have to worry about a reed freezing up in the cold northern air. You can do with your mouth. And and if you do that, just you sound like a young buck coming through the forest, and the deer will, they will, they'll listen. You'll get their attention, and they're gonna hear you move it anyway. And you've got pleeces on so they don't hear that rustling like normal clothes. And then you have a set of amplers, and there that you just wait a sampling a little bit, just waiting, you know. Now you now you're you've made the sound of a bluck grunt and you've made the sound of a black raking examplers. They will accept the sound of something approaching, and they won't They'll stand there away. These are all my my top secrets for hurting. Hoping that you guys will have millions of viewers. Otherways, there's to be a little big dead here this year. Sorry about that. So anyway, that's that's all, you know. Yeah, And if I get a little passionate abouts because I love it, it's it's uh, I love it. I mean I, like I said, white tails are the one animal for the rest of my life if I can, God willing. So so these are all things that I've learned over the years and applied them and they work. This is awesome. No, that was one of the most interesting explanations of a hunting strategy we've heard yet on the podcast over nineteen episodes. That that was awesome. I want to go out there and start tracking some white tails myself. Although the forty acres back on my my back forty here probably wouldn't be a track too far, but that's you know, and there in lines the one problem with tracking. You've gotta be able to go for miles if necessary, to stay on their track. If you have forty eight yours, they'll stand on the other side of the fence on your neighbor's land and uh stick the coun out at you. So you got to have the space. Yeah, absolutely so. I love your love your passionate descriptions of of what you're doing there and how you're tracking deer. So makes me think of another question being, you know, what is your most memorable white tail hunt? I would love to hear that story, because you are one heck of a storyteller. Well that the I appreciate it. I think, thanks for the complement. Uh, you know, I'm passionate about it. So it's pretty easy to tell a story when you're passionate about something. You know. For me, there's three hunts come to mind. Um, Bramlin's first block and Eva's first buck. Um, those are first white tailed deer. I mean those both and um and for it wasn't even her first white tailed buck, it was more her first It was her first statue in white tail black again. I grew up on Statue one and to be there with her when she got her first year. Um, it was fabulous. I mean it just there's nothing like it. And anyone that's got children out there that they hunted with, are looking forward to hunt with, we'll know what I'm talking about. It doesn't get better than that. Um. And then, uh, you know my own first white tail when I was fourteen years of age, that you know, I mean I'm looking at the rack right now here in my office and literally looking at the rack. Uh. You know, I can tell you exactly everything about it. I mean, that's as if it was yesterday. So how how to happen that first that first deer for Jim Shocky, Well, it was my my father and his brothers where all my uncles were. They were meat hunters, So white tail deer hunting was about going out and getting meat for the freezer. If you could go out opening morning in white tail season and and everybody kills her deer that morning and they're back at work at noon, that that was the best white tail season ever. I wasn't quite you know, somehow I was. I was born under some different star, I guess I don't know, but for me, it didn't make sense. I always want to take the last the uh my wife told you it was was kind of like that. It was opening morning. I was driving with my dad and two of my uncle's in Saskatchewan, and they didn't They used to push blush it's called which basically drive deer drives and uh and road hunt essentially rode hut. I mean in those days, that's what they did. And you know who was I to Tema was fourteen years of age. I had my uh my three or three British sportarized three British and I remember were driving along first light and out in the field was a buck following about four doors. So they slammed on the brakes. And you know, I've been I've been on many hunts with my dad and his brothers, and I knew the routine. You bail out and and you know, crank your shell in or you know loaded actors are not to have one in the magazine, and then everybody starts shooting at the deer. Well in this case, you know, we all held out and and I you know, cranked a shell into my gun and you know, started popping away at these deer while I actually took one shot and the deer dropped. And I mean it was my first. I didn't know. I mean I I didn't know enough about it. I actually turned around and I said to my dad, who who hit him? I didn't know? And they when I looked around, my dad and my two uncles didn't have their guns. I was the only one holding a gun. So that was my my first. It wasn't exactly like I would have wanted it to be, you know, now, knowing what I know after forty more years of hunting them, you know, and how Evan brand got their first year, but you know, you know what it was. It was my first year and it's a cherished memory and it was maybe I gained not the most ethical way to hunt, but but it was my first year. I didn't get him, did get him on the run, and I was only one of the shots. So and by the way, my uncle's somehow not one of them helped me with the gutt of that deer. It was about twenty below but I had to figure I had to figure it out by myself. Yeah, so so there's there was the downside to that getting that first here, Yes, you really had to work for that one. What what what was that feeling like when you walked up on your first deer kill ever, was a shock where you just excited or sad? What were those first moments like, you know, you know what I can tell you absolutely it was. It was exactly the same feeling that I get today. You excited, you walked up and just well, like this, you just want to get your hands on that animal, to hold it, to feel it. You know, it's yours, you now possess it. You you you know, and it's I'm sure that's a primal, uh something primal that when we had food back when we're a caveman, that was a joyous feeling. That was joy meant me we were going to survive for another day, another week, another month, maybe your family was going to life. So when when it's literally that innate in us, if any hunter will know, you walk up to that animal, it's like it's an overwhelming feeling of joy. It's not an adrenaline, it's not a it's it's joy when you're walking up, when you get your hands on it, and then it turns into a it turns. For me, it was almost a melancholy, and it still is to this day. You know, it's a melancholy. I just took the life of this animal, and you know, it's one less animal in this world, which I again is probably a very natural thing for us to as as hunters. You know, we we just predated on one of the animals were trying to predate on. Well, now there's one less means it's gonna be that much harder next time. There's less animals to hunt. So there, you know, it's a melancholy and a sadness almost that comes over you and and almost to regret. And I you know, and that's the part I don't quite understand. Maybe that's where we're more civilized nowadays. I don't know, because I can't talk to my anti seasons from a thousand years ago to know what they felt. But but you know, it's almost to regret for me. Wow, the season's over. You know, everything ivery all the effort I put in, all the anticipation, the preparation, the practicing, you know, the scouting, whatever I was doing ahead of the season, you know, anticipating the season. It's all over. And the reason I did all that is now over. And and you know, my season is done and it won't be until next year that I get to do this again. So that, like I said, that may be the civilized part is the regret um, you know, because our anti ancestors didn't have to worry about that. You know, they would I'm sure feel a little sadness that this animal is dead, and then they would just go, Okay, what's next. We have a butcher. Let's let's get all with life here. Somebody watch out for the dire woes and the cave bears because they're they're coming right where. We don't have to worry about that. Now we have the luxury in our modern civilization of the feeling a pang of regret that, you know, everything we work for is now over. I guess like an Olympic athlete, race is over when the go battle. Now what you know, what what's next? It's you know, well next to Olympics is four years away, so so you know, for hunting, it's next season now. Some places, obviously you know, they get to shoot more than one deer season. That's not the case in in Northern Canada. It's a it's a very interesting and strange combination of emotions. That I think all hunters can relate to. And it's it's also one of those things I think, you know, it's always interesting to hear another hunter describe how they feel, and I think I can relate relate a lot to what you're saying, they're Jim, But it's something that's so hard to describe to someone who's never experienced it. I think in a lot of cases they just can't really wrap their heads around that. Um, it's it's quite an experience, Yeah, it is, and and it's you know what, it's what makes us human. And I actually I feel sorry for everyone that doesn't hunt. It doesn't get to feel that that deep, innate, spiritual h what would it be like, like, uh, a friendship? Yeah, it's like exactly right. It's like a calling. It's a partaking of something that that people that don't hunt can't ever, can't ever experience. And I don't care what they say. You can jump out of all the airplanes you want, You can ski down amount everest, that that's what you know, you get your tickles from that. You can you know, die with with sharks, with naked It's still nothing compares, nothing compares to the innate that overwhelming sense of we need a new word, to think of a new word. It's not joyous. Spirituality made is the closest connection. Yeah, you know, um, you know, being part of the circle of life, you know life, because death bs life to actually be part of it and not just be a void year living on chickens and cows that are that are growing. However, chickens and cows are growing, you know, when you're actually providing for yourself and and you kill that animal and you can eat that animal, you know, and you know when you walk up to that animal, it's it's, uh, there's nothing more pure, there's nothing more pure. And it's not a generaline, it's it's like you say, you can't it's impossible to describe to somebody who doesn't hunt. And and you know, be wonderful if the people that don't hunt would try it. Just try it, you know, and just see what that feeling is. And it's hard to deny it because it's it's real, it's pure, it's us, it's in eat, it's who we are as human beings. And it's when you're truly the most human is when you walk up to that animal, and yeah, it's Uh. I wish the rest of the world could hunt too. I wish there's enough space and animals. Unfortunately, we've gotta be careful we wish for sometimes. Yeah, very true. Well, I uh gosh, this is one of my favorite aspects of hunting to talk about. I love talking about this, this non necessarily tactic or killing focus, but just about the everything beneath the surface. It's it's so deep and many times the people don't actually talk about it. Um. But that said, we are really coming up on on time here, so I know we want to be respectful of your time. Jim, I know you've got a lot going on U. So, Dan, do you have any final question for Jim before we close things up? Yeah? You know you're you're obviously an advocate for for hunting, and you're very passionate about the outdoors and hunting as well. What would you say is your biggest takeaway from this sport over over all the years you've done it. Hell, I think I would. I would say that it has to be the the family orientation of of hunters and hunting. I mean, it is truly a family oriented pastime, and I think sometimes in today's urbanized world, we you know, as we leave hunting behind, you know, so many people don't hunt to live in the cities. Um. I think we also lead behind some of the family values that that made you know, Canada and the United States of America the greatest countries in the world. You know, it's family is what what what these nations are built on. And when we forget, when we forget hunting, we also kind of hand in hand forget, forget family. And again, I'm sure I'll get a bunch of crappy emails from people in the city saying, all, I love my kid, Yeah you do. I'm sure you do, you know, and hope they enjoy their week at Campishire. You know, that's I'm being a little derogatory. There shouldn't be, but but it's you know, it's not the same, you know, the the the you know, farm culture, you know, agric culture. You know, when you take away the culture out of our lives, what are you left with, Well, you're you're left with agra. You know, it's not the same anymore, you know it It was so to me. I think the biggest takeaway is that hunters tend to be family people. They tend to be salty to the earth. They're exactly who I would want, you know, knocking me in any kind of a fight. You know, it's it's you see it, you see it, you see it in the military, you see it over and over. The values are there. So so hunting is just part of that part of the value system. I guess that makes family that what it is, you know why it was so important for these countries highly developed, and I just would be afraid over time that we the more we urbanize, the more we get away from hunting, the more we get away from family and importance of family. So that that would be my my takeaway. I'm not not sure if that's exactly that you're looking for, but but the hunting family and family hunting is again same thing where tied inextricably, inextricably together. Yeah, I love that, and I think it's it's such a great reminder too because its hunters, especially today, there's such a focus in some cases, there's such such a focus on you know, killing a certain type of animal or a size animal um or just getting that that kill, when so many times we start forgetting about those most important things, like you said, family and those experiences. So that's the journey, the journey man. It's like I killed one of my biggest bucks um a couple of years ago, and I felt I almost had a feeling that. You don't get me wrong, I loved the kill, But the journey for me almost shadows the last thirty second. It's of the entire the entire journey, for sure. For sure, it's it's I mean, think about the thirty seconds you said it right there, thirty seconds out of how many days did you have, how many weeks, how many months did you prepare for it? You know that the actual kill is is such a tiny little part of it. And and it's it's a little bit sad when when a guy's hunt is ruined because the animals scored this instead of that, you know, two inches lass or two inches, But who cares. It's not it's not about that. It's about the exactly you said. It's the journey, it's the adventure. It's it's the getting they're doing it, and the animal is is you know, what the record book says about it, or what the tape measure says about it is really truly irrelevant. It's it has nothing to do with the hunt, nothing at all. Yeah, yeah, I really hope that you know, this is a message that hits home with people and that people can can keep in mind this coming hunting season, especially because it's so easy today's hunting culture to get obsessed with those ancillary things that in the end really take away from what's what's most important. And and and don't get me wrong, and I think all three of us would be uh remiss if we implied that we wouldn't make an effort to get a bigger bucket and what we're seeing right in front of us. And that's but that's all part of it. And you sent your goals understanding that you know, the the the accomplishment is directly proportional to the challenge. So you want to get yourself two hundred class white tailed deer and that's important to you, then understand you're gonna fail on getting the animal that you want, but don't let that ruin your hunt because you still have the hunt. In the fact, you'll be able to hut longer than almost everybody because you're never gonna be tagged up for at least on this lifetime. So so it's you know, it's you know, as long as people keep perspective on it. Yeah, it's fun, really fun to shoot a big bucket. I'd love to hunt for a particular bucket. For me, that's the challenge nowadays is I want to hunt that buck and with the trail cameras out there, you know, stealth camera we use. You know, I have a pretty good idea what around so I can hunt a particular back to the exclusion of all the others, which again, you know, that's that's a challenge. But I'm never ever going to feel that my hunt was it wasn't a great hunt because I put those constraints on myself to not shoot something, and I didn't shoot anything because I was looking for a particular, dear. And it's the same thing for someone who want you know, they come up to the north to Canada. You know, they think one sixty one seventy white tails are behind the retreat. They're not. You know, one forty is still a good whitetail in Saskatchewan, Alberta. It is for an average guy coming for one week. Yeah, that's good, dear. And and if you come in with false expectations and want a certain size deer only or it's not a great hunt. You'll miss out the beauty of just sitting understand, watching all the other deer, you know, and and and you'll be disappointed when you shoot one. That's one. Two? Why why you know it's a great deer. You had a great hunt, that's like you said, then it's all part of the ernie and that you know. I think that hunters would be better off, happier if if they could keep that in perspective. And it's hard because look what we show on television right where we're convincing an entire season into half an hour. Well, yeah, you kill a big deer and you've got ten cameras out there with ten different guys. You give a false impression that there's those big deer behind every tree. And if you don't get that, it's not a successful hunt. And it's just not true. I mean, it's I think it's about family, fun, adventure as humor and big animals are at most part of any hunt. And really the kill thirty seconds, like you say, it's maybe down to about a zero zero zero one of a hunt. So you know that's not the important part, not at all. Yeah, so true, so true. Well, Jim, this has been an awesome conversation. And you know, for our listeners if they want to learn more about what you have going on or catch you on TV, you know, where can they go to get that information? Uh, Jim Chalky dot com. Where they can? Facebook is probably the best way I got. I gotta get my Facebook numbers up to match Eva's. She's like like twice as many people place as many fans. What what is that all about? Somebody? Somebody Facebook? We can tell me how can Eva like five hundred sixty two thousand, eight hundred nine nine, But who's counting? You know what her poor dad is is like half that? And I guess you need you need to get a field in the string cover now, Jim, Yeah, maybe that's that's that's shure does. Wouldn't hurt what, Yeah, not at all. I'd be I'd be like the one eight nine male that's been on the front cover as opposed to the second female. Not quite not quite as significant, not quite. But yeah. Facebook is probably just as easy as anything. And uh or our website Jim Choky dot com either way is uh, you can fall along with what we're doing here. We're pretty good at keeping what's going on and letting people know where we are, what we're doing excellent. I will I will make sure to include links to that in our show notes so everyone can can check those out and catch the new show Uncharted, which which looks excellent. And Jim, like I said, this has been a pleasure. So thank you so much for the time and for chatting with us today. Spine pleasure, guys, appreciate it. Time to take my wife Hope pursushi. Now we'll have a have a great evening. And thank her for allowing us to borrow you for a little bit here tonight. She's probably happy with it. I've been home for four days now, so she's already going tired to me, so she's happy to borrow me up for a few hours. Good deal. Well, best of leuft the rest of the season, Jim, and have a good one. Okay, guys, take care, Thank you good mother. Wow? How about that? I just thought that this conversation was terrific. Jim's knowledge of this pursuit is incredible and his passion for the hunt is really palpable. I love it, and I hope all of you got as much of a kick out of this interview as I did. And that said, As always, if you enjoyed the show today, we would really appreciate if you could leave a rating or review on iTunes. Takes less than three minutes and it could help hundreds of new white tail addicts find this show, and in my opinion, that's a pretty cool thing, So thank you in advance. Speaking of thanks, we also like to thank our excellent partners who helped make this show possible. Big thanks to Sick of Gear, Trophy, Ridge Bear Archery, Red Knick Blinds, Carbon Express Arrows, Hunt Soft, Lacrosse, Boots, Big and J, Long Range Attractives, and the White Tail Institute of North America. Also be sure to visit wird hunt dot com slash episode nineteen to view the show notes and links from today's episode. That said, thank you again, Wired Hunt Nation for spending some time with us here today and until next week. Keep chasing the dream and stay weird Hunt.

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