00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to the whitetail woods, presented by first Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light Go farther, stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. 00:00:19 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on the show, I'm joined by my longtime co host Dan Johnson to discuss the epiphanes, the tactical changes in the philosophical shifts that have occurred for the both of us as we have unexpectedly become middle aged hunters. All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their Camel for Conservation initiative. 00:00:48 Speaker 3: A portion of every. 00:00:50 Speaker 2: Sale of our specter camel pattern, which is the white tail pattern for first Light, goes back to support the National Deer Association. So great stuff. I appreciate first Light doing that. And today's podcast is a fun one. It's a different one in some ways, it's like many others. In some ways it's different. I guess it's like many others because my guest coming up here soon is the one and only Dan Johnson. He co hosted this podcast with me back when I started it in it was either late twenty thirteen or early twenty fourteen. We did many, many episodes together, shared a whole lot of laughs, a whole lot of stories and experiences. So it's always fun to bring Dan back on the show to catch up on our hunting lives and what's going on during our seasons or leading up to the season. So we're gonna do a little bit that We're gonna talk IOWA, our plans this year, some of that catch up, but more importantly, we're gonna talk about an epiphany that I had recently. And I'll explain this to Dan when he gets on, because I am going to surprise Dan with his topic. 00:01:45 Speaker 3: He doesn't know what he's getting into here. 00:01:47 Speaker 2: But I recently realized that I started Wired to Hunt back in two thousand and eight, and that is nearly twenty years ago. It's like seventeen years ago, nearly two decades ago. I started this thing. When I started this thing, thee for Wired to Hunt was deer hunting for the next generation. And I recently realized that I am not the next generation anymore. I'm nearly forty years old. I am technically a middle aged man now, a middle aged hunter. What does that mean? What does that mean for you? 00:02:20 Speaker 4: Know? 00:02:20 Speaker 2: How I hunt, why I hunt, where I hunt, the many choices that go into my decisions about tactics. There's a lot of things we can unpack here, and I got to think that there is an interesting discussion to be had about these different stages of your hunting life, and where Dan and I are right now is in this kind of middle. 00:02:40 Speaker 3: Aged hunter phase. It's weird to say. 00:02:43 Speaker 2: For a long time, you know, I kind of looked at myself as like one of the young guns, one of the kids in this community of this new fangled podcast thing. But now here I am not so much a kid anymore. 00:02:54 Speaker 3: What does that mean? What have I learned along the way? 00:02:57 Speaker 2: Is? What has Dan learned along the way? How are decisions changing? How is our approach to hunting changing? 00:03:03 Speaker 3: How are our goals. 00:03:05 Speaker 2: And expectations around hunting changing? There's a lot here, And I imagine I'm not the only one who's going through this, because if you began this journey with me at some point, if you've been on this kind of roller coaster as Wired to Hunt has grown and changed over the years, maybe you two find yourself in a new stage as a hunter. So whether you're eighteen years old and wondering what you know it's coming down the line, or maybe you're in your thirties or forties and you're in this phase of life and in this phase of your journey as a hunter in which you're realizing you're not that young gun anymore. You've been around the block of it, You've seen some stuff, you've done some stuff, priorities might be changing. All of that is what Dan and I discussed today. I think it's I think it's a conversation worth having and maybe wrestling with yourself. It was at least healthy for me to do so, So I. 00:03:57 Speaker 3: Hope you guys enjoyed this one. 00:03:58 Speaker 2: If it's relevant, I hope it inspires you to do a little bit of thinking and maybe have some chats like this with your own friends who are in a similar vote. So that's the plan for today, and without any further beating around the bush, let's get to my chat with Dan as we discuss the unexpected realization that we. 00:04:16 Speaker 3: Are now middle aged hunters and what the heck that means. 00:04:26 Speaker 2: All right here with me on the line is the one and only ten fingers minus one, The man who's been by my side since the beginning the OG mister Daniel Johnson Dan Wells at the show. 00:04:42 Speaker 4: Thank you. 00:04:42 Speaker 5: It's crazy being called an OG because in the streets, OG means the original gangster. I don't know if I've ever been a gangster, but I consider myself original. 00:04:55 Speaker 3: Oh oh no, man, I remember you telling me some of your stories from college. I think the name it fits. I think the name fits. 00:05:02 Speaker 2: O G. 00:05:03 Speaker 3: How how the heck are you? 00:05:05 Speaker 4: I'm good, man, you, I'm doing really good. 00:05:08 Speaker 2: It's it's that time of year where you know, we're trying to pack in all sorts of fun summer activities of the family. But at the same time, I'm realizing that the approaching deadline for hunting season is quickly showing up. 00:05:21 Speaker 3: So I've got two levels of anxiety. 00:05:24 Speaker 2: One anxiety is like, Okay, get as much great family time as possible, and then the other anxiety is like hunting seasons coming closer, hunting seasons coming closer, Get working, get working, get working. 00:05:33 Speaker 3: So that's my world right now. 00:05:35 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm gonna say I'm gonna throw you under the bus instantly on this episode. And so when we when we get on this little platform that we're on, and I'm like, hey, Mark, how's it going. He's just like, oh, man, I'm doing okay, just like, just like a hint of depression in his voice. I'm like, oh my god. He's like, yeah, I'm out here in Idaho, just like, oh God. 00:05:58 Speaker 4: No. 00:05:58 Speaker 5: Like I'm like, oh, you're an Idaho, dude, You're an Idaho. Oh I'm just out here hiking beautiful mountain trails all day long. It's so hard doing what I'm doing right now. Now I'm over exaggerating just a little bit. 00:06:14 Speaker 2: But well, I've only slept in my own bed once in the last seven nights. 00:06:19 Speaker 3: Dan the rest were on the ground. Tough. 00:06:22 Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, yeah. 00:06:25 Speaker 5: Is it because is it because an earthquake destroyed your home? Nose because you chose to do that. You're living the main You're living every man's wildest fantasy. 00:06:34 Speaker 4: Mark. 00:06:37 Speaker 2: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna argue that although I had I had an interesting diet or a side path. I was thinking of taking that comment, but I won't. I will just say that I am fortunate got to do a three or two night backpacking trip with the kids over the weekend and three or four more nights of camping before that, and uh that was pretty fun. 00:06:57 Speaker 3: So no complaints here. 00:06:59 Speaker 4: I can't. My kids want to go backpacking. 00:07:01 Speaker 5: They want to go on some overnight stuff, and I think I'm gonna be able to get in some of this stuff once baseball is over. But uh, like my oldest boy, he's like, like, when can we go sleep in your truck somewhere? And I'm like, trucks suck to sleep in. But I got a tent and I got some sleeping bags. We can go do something fun like that. So it's on the it's on the agenda. 00:07:26 Speaker 3: Good. 00:07:26 Speaker 2: That's it's it's so much fun, and it's it's the simplicity of it, Like how easy it is to keep the kids entertained when you're just like out of the campground or off in the nature backpacking. It's it's so nice compared to when you're home and you're you know, trying to keep them occupied to do go do this, go try this, do this thing. 00:07:44 Speaker 3: When you're out there, like you don't need to say a word. They just take off. 00:07:48 Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh and that's pretty cool. So uh so yeah, I'm I'm doing the Idaho Summer thing. Fishing camp and all that kind of stuff, which is good. 00:07:57 Speaker 3: But I want to do a couple of things with you. 00:08:00 Speaker 2: Damn yes, I do want to hear a little bit about your summer white tail prep so far, what things are looking, how things are looking for the summer, kind of catch up on all that I did draw tag this year for your home state. As you know, I saw that, I saw them, so so maybe we can talk a little about that, and then I have a I have a. 00:08:20 Speaker 3: Surprise topic after that. 00:08:22 Speaker 4: Oh boy. 00:08:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's something that's been on my mind recently, and and I just want to see if it resonates with you at all and if you have any thoughts on it, because I feel like had a bit of an epiphany you yes, okay, And frequently when I have epiphanies over the last ten plus years, You've been good at either h jumping onto that epiphany and and riffing on it with me, or bringing back down to earth and telling me I'm crazy. 00:08:52 Speaker 4: Okay, all right, I'm I'm excited about that. 00:08:55 Speaker 5: I'm I'm I'm I'm a I'm a very blunt person at my with the kids that I have, So it's just like my kids my kids aren't getting the dad that is like, oh, I don't know, the very like. 00:09:11 Speaker 4: Oh, you can do anything, you can do anything. 00:09:14 Speaker 5: And then I'm that dad's like, buddy, you're never gonna dunk a basketball because your mom is five foot one. 00:09:20 Speaker 4: Right, that's I'm not Yeah, let's be realistic. 00:09:23 Speaker 5: I like, I like to bring the truth followed by but if you work hard enough, anything good way to do it. 00:09:30 Speaker 4: Yeah, anything can happen. 00:09:33 Speaker 2: I feel like that's a great way to approach your hunting season, Dan. In most years, yeah, you're probably not going to kill that booner you've had your eyes on for the last four years, but you know, if. 00:09:43 Speaker 4: You show up, you might just get get an opportunity. 00:09:46 Speaker 3: Might just happen. 00:09:47 Speaker 2: So, so speaking of what you know, it's it's July, it's that time of year we're really starting to you know, think trail cameras or summer scoutings beginning all that kind of stuff. Do you are you at a stage yet where you've been to dive into that at home yet? 00:10:02 Speaker 5: No, you're already regretting having me on as a guest today because because you're like, hey, we're going to talk about summer prep. Dan what's your summer prep And I go, I have zero trail cameras out. I've done zero summer scouting. The last time I was in the woods was in March when I picked up a shed antler. 00:10:22 Speaker 4: And that's it. 00:10:24 Speaker 3: This is perfect for the surprise topic. 00:10:25 Speaker 2: By the way, You're segueing perfectly to what we're going to get to eventually. So this is because family, is that right? Just family life and all other obligations. 00:10:33 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I see wrestling two base kids in baseball, one of them I coach, and then I go to my daughter's wrestling practices as well, and then on top of that, running a business and trying to manage that while creating content, while managing the business, while working from home with kids in the summertime, and then doing all the extra fun stuff with them that I'm afforded the you know, the opportunity to do because I work from home, and then at the same time realizing that I don't have anything done. 00:11:08 Speaker 4: It's eight o'clock at night, and then I work for three more hours and and then it's like, holy shit, what did I do with my day? You know? 00:11:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's on that. 00:11:18 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's in life mode. Right now, But once baseball's over in two weeks, then it's go time. 00:11:25 Speaker 2: So do you have like anything you're particularly excited about this year? Is there like a buck that made it through last year? Sheds you found, or a. 00:11:33 Speaker 3: Room or you've heard of? 00:11:34 Speaker 5: Yeah, So there's just a couple, two really two. The first one is on this new farm that I have access to. I've been hunting it for this will be my fourth year now hunting it. 00:11:46 Speaker 4: It's in a really good neighborhood there. I had two deer last year that just disappeared, and I'm assuming the neighbors got them. That's what I'm assuming happened. 00:11:57 Speaker 5: The second thing on that property is there's you know, we talked about power vacuums sometimes and when a big mature buck is killed, what moves in to take its place? And so two big deer got killed, I'm assuming, and so what's going to move in? And so there was a really good three slash four year old that was about one point fifty last year and I he might have been one forty five ish and I decided to pass him. And so I'm excited to see what he kind of pops up into if he's still around or depending on what that power vacuum produces, what's what else could. 00:12:38 Speaker 4: Potentially move in. 00:12:40 Speaker 5: But the thing that I am thinking about the most right now in the world of white tails is a buck. 00:12:47 Speaker 4: That I have been following along with. 00:12:50 Speaker 5: For the past This will be year number four, I believe so year number one that I saw him. 00:12:58 Speaker 4: I'm assuming he was a three year old. 00:13:01 Speaker 5: He just popped out of nowhere and he was sitting at about this this one forty class ten pointer. The next year he explodes into like a booner ten with a like a kicker off of his uh on one of his G two's. I'm I'm almost positive I sent you pictures of him a full of years ago. And then last year he turned into a giant like three by two where I don't know if he was injured or what happened, but his one side was a brow and two like a mainbeam and a G a G two, and then the other side was the same thing but with a big crab claw at the front end. 00:13:47 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:13:47 Speaker 5: So I rattled him in this past year and he was coming dead eye to me. But I also rattled in a horse that came into and this is no joke. Dude, this horse, remember this horse came into investigate ate the rattle, and so the buck was coming in. 00:14:03 Speaker 4: He saw the horse, so he stayed. 00:14:05 Speaker 5: And flanked all the way around me and then came way way not even down win just way far away from me. 00:14:11 Speaker 4: He hit a scrape. 00:14:13 Speaker 5: I snort wheezed him back in, but he never came back in, and then he disappeared. 00:14:17 Speaker 4: And so he's run the same circuit now for the last three years. 00:14:24 Speaker 5: And then if the guy that I share the property with didn't kill him, then I'm assuming that no one killed him. 00:14:32 Speaker 4: Yeah, and my. 00:14:34 Speaker 5: Guess is now we're looking at three four, five six, potentially a seven year old this year, and he has the potential to do something really awesome if he grows out of what he was last year back to what he was like a previous year, plus maybe a couple of inches. I don't know, And so only trail camers will tell me that story. But I know where he's going to be if I as soon as I get some trail cameras out over top of like a mineral site, he's gonna be there. 00:15:07 Speaker 4: And so all I gotta do is wait. 00:15:09 Speaker 3: Well, even if he even if he just goes funky again. I've always thought like. 00:15:14 Speaker 2: A really big bodied, old funky buck like that would be such a cool deer to hunt. 00:15:19 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Actually I had a deer two seasons ago. That's kind of like that. 00:15:22 Speaker 2: I hadn't I was a news of new property, so I didn't know him for years and years, but he showed up kind of very similar, like three points on one side, big fork on. 00:15:30 Speaker 3: The other, huge like brahma bule body. 00:15:33 Speaker 2: You could tell like it was he was the guy just you know, funky, funky antler's going on. 00:15:39 Speaker 3: And that was a cool dear to see a few times. 00:15:41 Speaker 5: I'll tell you this, man, there's something about a no doubter mature buck, and I don't think a lot of people actually get the opportunity to see them, because yes, there's a big jumping body size between three and four, But when now you start talking about five six seven year old bucks that body size, I don't care where you're at in the country, whether you're down in the Texas heat or up in northern Wisconsin, Canada, the body size jumps so much that you just know by glancing at the body shooter automatically. 00:16:16 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that's awesome. To have encounters with those types of animals one. 00:16:21 Speaker 3: Hundred percent agree. 00:16:22 Speaker 2: That's the thing now that that gets me the most excited. And so you see that huge, formidable body moving to the timber. It just they act different, they look different, they move different. 00:16:34 Speaker 5: Patients are greater like they don't they don't make mistakes very often. So I'm excited to see with what this buck does where he's traveling. If he sticks to the same kind of path that I did. The only difference is a little bit of crop rotation strategy that you kind of got to think about where he's going to go. But outside of that, man, man, I think it's going to get I think it's gonna get good really quick this year. 00:17:00 Speaker 3: That's exciting. I've got, like I said, the Iowa tag myself. 00:17:05 Speaker 2: And my plan there is doing the opposite of what I did last time I was in Iowa, which we talked about, but this was year. 00:17:13 Speaker 3: I haven't got to tag there in like four years or something like that. 00:17:17 Speaker 2: It's been a while, but last time around I was there, I was just so focused on doing what everyone tries to do in Iowa. It's just like, get the really big deer. That the thing that everyone imagines with Iowa. And so I was like hunting my tail off NonStop hour, you know, hour before daylight till all the way to the end of the dark, and didn't do anything with like our buddies there that lived there, and didn't do all the social stuff that all my other pals from Michigan were doing with my local buddies. 00:17:41 Speaker 3: And yeah, this time I'm not doing that. 00:17:43 Speaker 2: This time I'm embracing the hunting, like the camaraderie side of things. 00:17:47 Speaker 3: I'm gonna come in sometimes and do lunch for the guys. 00:17:51 Speaker 2: I'm gonna stay out and go to dinner afterwards, have a good time. I'm gonna enjoy the whole experience and not be so worried about killing an Iowa giant, you know, yeah, yeah, And I just want to see the stuff, like I want to see the show that Iowa can sometimes show you. I want to see the you know, bucks being bucks, you know, hopefully see some mature bucks and you know rattling actually maybe working or decoying maybe actually working, or maybe see you know, some cool interactions between different deer and different bucks stuff. But you know, in Michigan's relatively rare to see that I know I could see there in your not killed the woods. So I'm going to be less worried about tagging a giant and more just like having fun experiencing it fully. And yeah, I if I could tag a mature buck, whatever size I would be, I'd be thrilled. 00:18:41 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's my plan. 00:18:42 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think Mark, once you learn that deer do not move in the rut between eleven and three or two or three in the after in the midday, just don't even hunt it, and then you can just kill in the morning and kill in the afternoon. 00:18:56 Speaker 4: That's just what I. 00:18:56 Speaker 3: Do, dude. 00:18:57 Speaker 2: You know, I I know there's a lot of like a lot of a lot of data and people would tell you the middle of the day is a pretty good time during the road, and I know I've seen it sometimes myself, but it's also a good time to have fun with your friends and recuperate a little bit. So I'm starting to see your way of looking at this a little bit. 00:19:17 Speaker 4: It just tells me you're getting old. That's all it tells me is you're gaining age in your body. 00:19:23 Speaker 2: So I think this is a perfect segue to what I want to ask you about, Dan, because I was thinking the other day that I started Wired to Hunt in two thousand and eight, yep, so that was like seventeen or eighteen years ago, almost two decades ago I started Wired to Hunt. And when I started Wired to Hunt, the catchphrase, like the tagline was deer hunting for the next generation, right, that was what wired Hunt was. And the other day I was thinking about that, and then I thought about the fact that that was almost twenty years ago. And then I realized that I'm knocking on the door of forty years old myself. And I realized I am not the next generation. 00:20:09 Speaker 4: Not anymore. 00:20:10 Speaker 3: I am a middle aged hunter yep. 00:20:15 Speaker 2: And that was a little bit of a slap in the face and an epiphany, and I realized, whoa I am, not who I used to be is, nor is what I make what I used to make. Yeah, And that has a whole lot of like ramifications on my hunting. How I do it, why I do it, when I do it, all that kind of stuff. And so it got me thinking about all this kind of stuff and this idea of like being a middle aged. 00:20:43 Speaker 3: Hunter or I think we've talked about back in the day. 00:20:46 Speaker 2: You know, there's these different stages of hunting, like there's like kind of a typical pathway that people kind of follow. 00:20:51 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I was kind of thinking about that and all of. 00:20:54 Speaker 2: It was making me feel really old. And so have you or did you ever have an epiphany where you realize that you are now like a middle aged hunter. You are not one of the kids anymore. You are not like the wild chide child on White Knuckle Productions saying silly things like you are an old man now in this hunting community that we resided. 00:21:17 Speaker 3: I ever have you thought about that? 00:21:19 Speaker 5: It's crazy because I still talk to the majority of the old timers. I guess you'd call them now. They like, I'm not quite old timer material. But I think about it, dude, it's I. I I can remember when I was first hunting hardcore. That would have been like when I was twenty six. Is that's when I two thousand and six is when I opened up my mobile hunting style and I went bananas. And I was at the time I was working in a like part of my time was in a factory in my late twenties. The other part was I'm always a landscaper and maybe a bounced around between a couple jobs at that point, and deer hunting was my priority. So I was hunting like forty days of the year, right, just I was in every afternoon. I was trying to be in every morning. Every weekend was morning and afternoon Sunday. 00:22:20 Speaker 4: Same thing. 00:22:21 Speaker 5: Like I was in the woods all the time. And now I just envisioned me doing that makes me tired, and so I'm just like, uh, nope, Like it's too hot, Okay, I'm not gonna hunt up, it's too windy, Okay, well I'm not gonna hunt. I just I I have way different priorities now than I did twenty years ago. Right, My, My my priority now is family is coaching? Is like I the thing that I realize going through on this middle aged journey that I'm in right now, there's positive thoughts and there's negative thoughts that come with like being going through your midlife crisis. 00:23:11 Speaker 4: Do you feel like you're in the midlife crisis mode right now? 00:23:14 Speaker 2: I'm not in midlife crisis, but I'm in the oh my gosh, Okay, it doesn't feel like a crisis, but it feels like, holy shit, how did I get here? Like this went so fast? Right, So this is like the realization phase. 00:23:25 Speaker 5: Exactly exactly, And I think I hit that a couple of years ago where I'm just like, like, I just don't care as much as I used to, and I'm talking about like, I still get fired up about deer hunting. Now it's less about me going out and trying to kill a big buck and more about who I'm actually with that I care about. And if my boy, let's say it's late October, temp drop comes through and I'm like, dude, this is the best day, and my son goes, hey, Dad, can we go fishing. I'm going fishing, dude, Like I just I love I love everything so much. And as someone in my this in our space, I think we're supposed to be really extremely fired up about it all the time. But that is for that younger generation to do now. For me, the focus is balance and expansion of what it means to be an outdoorsman and my job right now, and what I mean expanding is expanding my kids passion for the outdoors through hunting and fishing, and then also me doing things that I normally don't get to do here in Iowa, and that would be like additional species, like really focusing on mule deer and elk and antelope as of right now, and then hopefully in a handful of years I can expand into my dream hunts like moose and caribou and things like that. So it's just a different it's different ways of spending the time that I have, yeah, has changed. 00:25:15 Speaker 2: So I've wrestled with all those exact same things, and and you know, changing priorities and wanting to balance more with the family, and the growing obligations and desires that you have on that side too, So all of that might take you out of the field or have you doing less of like the extreme stuff, right, And so I've felt that desire sometimes. But then also on the flip side, I was talking with someone earlier this spring, and they brought up an interesting thing that they keep in mind a lot, and that I hadn't really thought about, but all of a sudden like hit me. They said, like, when it comes to some of these like extreme things, or like the big lifeless trips, or like the more physically challenging things like going up and doing a mountain, you know, black tail hunt in Alaska, or a caribou hunt, or el conn in Colorado or whatever. 00:26:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, they said that. 00:26:04 Speaker 2: You know, if you have the physical ability and and and the resources to do it right now, you should feel obligated to do it because that might not be available in ten years, that might not be possible in fifteen years. So if you if you've been given the grace of God to physically be able to do that right now, to have that opportunity right now, it would almost be a disservice to your kids if you didn't do those some of those things when you could and showcase that and have those experiences and bring those stories back and you know, again kind of getting to the Yeah, you never know what's going to come down the line, and you know, one day you're forty and the next day you're fifteen and you got a bad knee or whatever it is. 00:26:45 Speaker 3: So I thought about that too. Does that ever cross your mind? 00:26:50 Speaker 5: Man, I'll just I'll be completely honest with you about where I'm at. Yes, I think about those things. But if you're asking me as an average joe, right, and I consider myself an average joe from maybe the amount of money that I make in a given year, and so if you're asking me to go do a once in a lifetime trip where I am spending ten grand on like a big hunt, like I don't know, and some of these hunts are not even close to ten grand, but a big hunt like that, and I have to take money away from the family to do that because ultimately that's what I'm doing and maybe which would open up some different opportunities for them. Then I have to think, like what is more important At that point, I have to weigh some things. And I'm into the stage of my life where the teeter totter is always tilted towards my kids right now, Like literally, they are my favorite people to hang out with. I just I mean, they fight all the time, and they piss me off almost on a daily basis. But when we can have when we sit there and we go fishing or just hanging out doing like throwing rocks in a river like that is where I want to be right now. I don't want to miss I mean, because what happens is you get these little Facebook memories that pop up and it's you and your baby daughter and you're holding your and you're just like, holy shit, I have three kids now and she's twelve, Like I blinked, and I have grown up kids. Now and well, I mean seven is my youngest, but you know what I mean, They're not babies and toddlers anymore, and so I feel like I just want to stay with them and do this and then take care of my body so that long term, when they're out of the house or they don't want to be around dad anymore, then I can go and I can be like, yeah, I'm fifty five when I'm doing in ten years, Let's say I'm fifty five years old. Now I can focus on the checking the boxes, and yes, it might be more money then, but also I'm spending less money because I have three less kids. 00:29:07 Speaker 4: In the house. So you know, like I don't know, there's multiple ways to look at it. 00:29:12 Speaker 3: I guess, yeah, oh for sure. 00:29:14 Speaker 2: I camera if I had talked about this, this like little statistic I discovered with you when we did our last kind of like raising Outdoor Kids podcast a year or two ago. But when I heard this, and I'll just I'll stay it again just in case I didn't. The average American supposedly eighty percent of the time they get with their kids over the course of their entire life happens before their child is eighteen. So for most of us we have between now and when our kid turns eighteen to have experienced eighty percent of all the time we're going to get with them. Like when I heard that, it just blew my mind and realized, like, oh no, like so much of the life experience I'm going to have with this child is going to happen, you know, right now and over the next eight years or next ten years. That just, for some reason made it so much more concrete and so much more real the importance of what you just just said, Like soak in every moment of these short years, because they do go so fast. 00:30:15 Speaker 3: It it's so cliche. 00:30:16 Speaker 2: And if I'm like a twenty I don't think a twenty two year old is going to listen to this podcast today because of the title. 00:30:22 Speaker 3: I'm gonna put on it. 00:30:23 Speaker 2: But if for some reason the twenty two year old, it's very forward thinking, decided to listen to this podcast, they're probably rolling their eyes about how cliche this is, and YadA, YadA, YadA, because that's exactly what I. 00:30:34 Speaker 3: Thought when I was twenty two. 00:30:35 Speaker 2: Yep, but it's all true. All the stuff they told us back then is true. It goes by so quick it's a blink. I mean I remember coming on the podcast. I was sitting in my truck next to the Yellowstone River recording a podcast with you. I'm sitting in the front seat, computers on like the center console, and I was like, Dan, I gotta tell you something. 00:30:55 Speaker 3: We're having a kid. 00:30:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, and now my son is is you know, approaching eight years old? 00:31:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it seems like that was yesterday. 00:31:05 Speaker 4: Yeah, dude, yeah, yep, yep. 00:31:08 Speaker 5: Thank thank God for some of these memories, like the pictures and the Facebook memories that pop up and things like that. 00:31:15 Speaker 4: It does allow me to slow down and just be like, ah, lady man, it's like you don't get time only goes in one direction, and you have to I just want to be there. I want to be there with them all the time for everything. 00:31:31 Speaker 5: And I say that with an asterisk, because they got to go experience some stuff on their own at some point. But like for me selfishly, I want to be there with them because Dad is only cool right now and here in you know, five five years, for my youngest then dad's not as cool. Right my daughter, she's already branching out into this different life as a young Yair she's not even a woman yet, but I mean she acts like it, and so you see this, But she still wants to go turkey hunting with me, and she wants to go deer hunting with me. And so as long as I have that, I am going to hang on to that as long as I possibly can, and I will sacrifice any once in a lifetime. 00:32:19 Speaker 3: Trip for that. 00:32:20 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:32:21 Speaker 2: So so so where I want to kind of spend the rest of our time was exploring this kind of thing, all the different ways that this like stage of our lives, like becoming a middle aged hunter, how that impacts our hunting life, our choices, the way we look at things, the way we do things. And I think, you know, one of the things for me is exactly what you've been talking about and that I've been talking about, which is like the people you're around matter so much more than the other things used to be. Like you, you know, back in twenty fourteen when we started the podcast, you and I were just talking about this big buck and that big buck and this booner and all that, and and you know what do we talk about when we're talking about our upcoming season? 00:32:59 Speaker 3: It was much more this time. 00:33:00 Speaker 2: Around or you know who we're going to be around, and you know they're hunting buddies and you know, experience versus antlers and ninches, right right, I want to make sure I'm prioritizing more time, you know, hunting with my dad or getting my sons with my dad. Those kinds of things matter so much more now. Yeah, and I think, you know, again back to cliches, but you go with the standard stages that everyone talks about. Right there was like the stage when you're just getting start and you're trying to figure out, how do I get anything, how do I hunt at all? 00:33:32 Speaker 3: How do I kill anything? 00:33:34 Speaker 2: And then you figure it out and then you want to shoot a bunch of stuff, and then you then move to the next one. We're like, okay, now I want to get a big one maybe or a bigger one. And then you got I'm gonna be like a trophy on around only get like the big giant, the. 00:33:44 Speaker 3: One single whatever. 00:33:45 Speaker 2: And then you slowly start kind of coming down the bell curve, which is I guess where we are now, where it's much more about, Hey, I want to be around people I care about, have you know, experiences that matter for bigger reasons. Than just a tag of antlers on the wall. And then I think what also, I've been thinking a lot more about too, And this is maybe a slight transition, but and maybe I'm not old enough to be thinking about this, but I am. 00:34:08 Speaker 3: I'm an old soul maybe. 00:34:10 Speaker 2: But already thinking about like legacy, Like what am I passing out to the kids? What am I teaching the kids are what are my kids or people i'm around going to remember about how we did things or you know, stuff like that. Just thinking more about the future, Like my I think kids force this, force you to do this. 00:34:24 Speaker 3: Your Yeah, your. 00:34:26 Speaker 2: View changes, like the aperture you looked at the world that like when it was just me, it was just like, well what am I doing tomorrow or next week or next month? And now it's like I care about what's going to happen in forty years. Yeah, I'm not gonna be around, probably, but I know my kids will be. And so you're thinking about like the future of hunting or the future of deer or the future of public lands so much more now. Yeah, that's been a big thing for me lately. 00:34:50 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:34:51 Speaker 5: Yeah, let's table that public land talk for just a second. 00:34:55 Speaker 4: Well, I sort of explore this one. 00:34:58 Speaker 5: Like the outdoors to me, me is just a vessel really for the kids, like my legacy, I want to be like I want my kids to tell their kids, or my grandkids to tell their kids who will probably never meet, right and just be like, dude, my grandpa was an awesome son of a gun, right, or or I want my kids to tell their kids like the way that I talk about my grandparents, like dude, I loved them, they were awesome, Like my dad is a great guy. 00:35:33 Speaker 4: My mom is a big heart. She's very caring, Like I want my. 00:35:37 Speaker 5: Kids to talk about to other people about me, Like ultimately, that's really what it is. And it's like, never lose the memory of Dad, or never lose the memory of grandpa, right. 00:35:51 Speaker 4: Because that's true legacy. It's just that the outdoors is a delivery for people to be the best versions of themselves so that legacies can be made at that point. And so that's where I spend a lot of time with my kids, is the fishing and the hunting and the outdoors and stuff. And even if it's. 00:36:10 Speaker 5: Just outside, right, or just in the treehouse in the backyard or whatever, it's just it's a place where the true me gets to come out and the kids are able to see, Like, dude, the outdoors is where it's that. Man, my dad's so happy in outdoors. I'm so happy in the outdoors. And once you like find a true happiness in this state of nature whatever, that that's different for everybody. I really do think that that's that's where legacies are made, dude. 00:36:41 Speaker 4: And if you're able to accomplish. 00:36:43 Speaker 5: Some some extra things fighting for public land or teaching someone who's maybe less fortunate than you or doesn't have a dad or something like that to also hunt and fish, man, that's the cherry on top. 00:36:58 Speaker 2: Thank yeah, kind of expanding on something you brought up there. You know, the outdoors is a vessel for many different things, and it's also aus a tremendous u training ground for life. And so now now now as a father, you know, I'm seeing like so many opportunities for passing on really important life lessons in this like microcosm of the world which is the outdoors. So going back to where we started, we're backpacking this weekend, and I knew this was going to be a challenge. It was like their most challenging you know, outdoor expedition we've done with the two boys yet, they're five and seven. They've backpacked for a number of years now, but it's always relatively relatively you know, flat, not too long. We've carried most of the weight for him. This year, this weekend we did it was going to be a three day, fifteen mile, two thousand plus feet of elevation game trip, and both the boys got new backpacks. So my seven year old has like a legit backpacking backpack. 00:37:56 Speaker 3: That can carry some weight. 00:37:58 Speaker 2: My five year old has a big day path that he was going to carry some food and clothes and the camel back and stuff. So like they were going to be carrying more of the burdens. So coming into I was like, hey, just so you know, this is going to be challenging. This is going to be tough. And so I was like mentally preparing them for like this is going to be some type too fun and we're going to work through it together and it's gonna be amazing. But we're going to come into this knowing like we're gonna have to we're gona have to push through some hurdles and and what was so cool is like all that absolutely happened, and at one point on the last day that first off, they did amazing throughout all that. We get to the last day and you know, we've hiked fourteen miles so far, and everything's wearing on the kids and they're definitely exhausted. And I remember thinking to myself, like, you just got to keep like their mind on some other thing, right, So I brought this idea of the pain cave. 00:38:47 Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of the pain cave? 00:38:48 Speaker 4: I have not. 00:38:49 Speaker 2: It's it's like a thing in like the running world, or like the ultra marathon or long distance hiking, all that kind of stuff, like where you're you know, physically exerting yourself for hours, an hour and hours, you know, dozens and dozens of miles and eventually you can get to a point where you enter the pain cave and you are just like everything hurts, you know, It's like where you're at your lowest point and you think you want to quit. And the kind of one of the secrets to making it through the pain cave is not to like bemoan the pain cave. It's not to you know, feel sorry about yourself because you're in the pain cave. It's to embrace it and recognize, all right, man, like we're here. This is the moment when you like prove your metal. This is what you push through and you can kind of like embrace it, talk some smack to it, work through it, whatever. And so I explain all this to the boys as we're hiking, and so I kind of this is the idea of the pain cave. And so we might be in the pain cave right now, but you know what do we always talk about? Why do we do hard things that make you stronger? They help you in the longer and you're going to grow from it. Were in the pain cave right now, but let's start start talking smack to the pan cave. So my boys as we're hiking down the trail, they're carrying heavy packs. They've been hiking fifteen miles in the mountains, and my boys are, you know, going back. 00:39:57 Speaker 3: Hey, you know what, pain cave. 00:39:59 Speaker 2: You're not going to stop because we're the Kenyans and we don't give up and we're going to keep on working. And so like my five year old and seven year old are saying all this stuff like having fun with it, talking smack. You know, there's physically exhausted. 00:40:10 Speaker 3: Problem as they've ever been. 00:40:12 Speaker 2: But they learned a little something and then by the time they got we finished the hike, they're having fun. They're like, oh man, that really works dead And I just thought to it was what a great thing for a seven year old or yeah, great lesson, a great moment to realize how much stronger you are, how much more capable you are, how much more resilient you are. And I could never replicate that at home. I can never replicate that with a reading them a story or anything they would get in school. Yeah, and so many things like in hunting or fishing, you know, can do that kind of thing too. Yeah, creating, like fostering those kinds of moments now are what matters so much more to me now, whether it is with my kids or you know, as you mentioned, introducing other people to these pursuits that they can someday experience that. 00:41:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's the stuff that I'm really more and more interested in. 00:41:08 Speaker 5: How How far are you going to take the pain cave on your kids? Like are you gonna be like you're gonna let them go with Clay on a dog on a black bear hunt where they're chasing bears into caves and then have your son go in with a knife and try to kill a bear with a knife. 00:41:24 Speaker 2: There's definitely a fine there's a fine line you gotta walk for sure. 00:41:29 Speaker 4: Maybe maybe we'll ease into that. 00:41:31 Speaker 2: Yes, we will ease into the Yeah. But but yeah, man, I mean it's it's been. It's been such a wonderful thing, wonderful thing for our family to be able to kind of and when you see your kids grow like that, like you grow too, and your kids teach you so much about life in these moments, and so yeah, as a middle aged hunter now, I'm seeking out opportunities like that. Yeah, when I'm looking at my calendar for this coming year, it's much less about killing a target buck and much more about, Okay, how do I maximize time with the kids and the family. How do I if I'm doing something outside of that, how do I make sure it's like just a general experience that's really special or place that's really special. Because in the end, you know, like the moment, like if you're targeting some big giant buck, the moments that you actually have with that big giant buck are like fleeting, Yep, you kill this big giant buck. You feel great for a couple of minutes, and then he got to get this done, get this done, get this done, get this done. And then before you know what, the buck's cut up, and then the freezer and the antlers are at the taxi ermist and you're sitting there thinking, Man, this thing I obsessed about for twelve months or whatever happened, Like, now what? And I'm not saying that that's not still fun to pursue and cool to have tough goals, but I am realizing now like there's so much more than that. 00:42:54 Speaker 5: Well, I think the other way to look at that is the amount of work it takes for those types of moments. Right, those moments are special because they are rare. And I don't mean just moments with big bucks and killing a deer. I'm talking about moments with the family, the true moments where you've worked all year round. Now it's time to go do something special with them. And whether that's a vacation or maybe just a weekend fishing trip or whatever it is. 00:43:24 Speaker 4: Right, it's the moment. 00:43:26 Speaker 5: The moments like that are so special because they're rare, because if you lived your life like that, you'd be extremely lucky and probably wealthy to be able to afford to do those types of things. But it's all the hard work that goes into the kill or the moment where you're like the other day, I'm gonna try not to get emotional here, but this is something my oldest boy said to me. And he goes, we were fishing, we just got done fishing for the night, so it's getting dark, or drive through the countryside coming back from the pond of the house and he goes, Dad, do you. 00:44:06 Speaker 4: Wish you were older or do you wish you were younger? 00:44:10 Speaker 5: And I said, buddy, I just wish I'm just happy that I'm this age right now. 00:44:14 Speaker 4: I'm happy. 00:44:15 Speaker 5: And he goes, Dad, I wish you were younger so I could spend more time with you. And I'm just like, holy shit, right like it it's those types of things, and I'm just like blown away that my kid had the brain power to think of something like that first and foremost. But then that also tells me that he that he loves me and that he loves doing these things with me. So when I get that dopamine hit of my kid telling me that I don't want to do that shit, as much as I possibly can with him, you know what I mean? And so I don't know. Man, that's that's that's kind of where I'm at. 00:44:56 Speaker 3: That's the good stuff. That's the good, the good stuff. 00:44:58 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:44:59 Speaker 2: So being a middle aged hunter I think has changed our goals. I think it's changed the way we plan our year. I think it's changed how we spend our time. I'm curious though, kind of shifting gears a little bit here. Has it changed how you hunt more like tactically or philosophically. Has your approach to hunting changed if you were just if you were to look at you know, Dan Johnson at twenty six, twenty eight thirty, when you were balls to the wall versus Dan Johnson, middle aged old man hunter that we are today, how has that affect you strategically? 00:45:37 Speaker 5: The most thing, I'll say this, and I don't mean this to be arrogant, but because I've made you know, I make mistakes every year, just like everybody does. But if I find you and you're a big buck dude like I'm, I am taking all of my experience, I'm taking all of my knowledge and I'm pointing it in one and that's your vitals right, And so I would say that I am more dangerous now as a hunter than I was ten years ago, you know, when I was thirty five, and even more now than I was at twenty five, and I was able to have as much freedom because knowledge is power, experiences power, and I'm just doubling down on all of the things that have worked for me throughout the course of my life. And I'm telling you right now like I'm I don't want to say like I'm not the best, because I don't know how you quantify that, but I'm really good at getting in close to big deer and that has taken me several years to get to that point. But now with an attitude where Okay, I'm weighing being here in this tree stand against what all the things that we just talked about. So I have to be much more intentional in my drive, in my decision making on where I'm going to be, how I'm going to get that because I'm hunting less now than I ever have before. And so now I'm kit when I go into kill mode, it's kill mode, it's blinders on, it's I'm going in to the best stands. I'm not waiting around I'm using all of the knowledge I have on terrain features, access routes, wind direction, and I'm putting it to use immediately now as opposed to you know, all those years ago. 00:47:32 Speaker 2: What's like the most high impact lever you have to allow you to do that? Like, like you mentioned, a bunch of different things, a bunch of different types of knowledge or approaches that allow you to be more effective with less time. 00:47:45 Speaker 3: But like, what's that highest leverage point. 00:47:46 Speaker 2: What's the thing that because you now understand like more than you did fifteen twenty years ago, that allows you to do that? Could you put your finger on the the most important of those shifts? 00:47:57 Speaker 5: I think that we and you all the old like the older guys talk about it, we give them too much credit. 00:48:05 Speaker 4: Right, they are in there for a reason. 00:48:08 Speaker 5: And unless you jump out of a bush and scare the ship out of them and they run to the next county, they're not gonna go. They're not disappearing, right, They're gonna go somewhere else that's relatively close. And I will I will go back to a quote that Jim Shockey it might have even been on this podcast several years ago, where he talks about a body of water like a pond, as. 00:48:33 Speaker 3: Like did he did? 00:48:34 Speaker 4: He did not rake the pond. He did not rake the pond. 00:48:39 Speaker 3: Sorry to derail. 00:48:41 Speaker 4: You, oh man. That was a that was a good episode anybody. 00:48:46 Speaker 3: Speaking of a great wired un episodes. 00:48:50 Speaker 5: But Jim Shockey goes, hey, I got this pond, and when I throw a big rock into this pond, it creates ripples. And sometimes the ripples get big and they cry the shore and then over time those ripples go away and the pond comes back to calm again. Right, And so that has kind of stuck with me about pressure. If you are a small pebble going into a farm or a body of water, and you just have so like you have your access routes planned out, you have your exit routes planned out. You know what you're doing on the wind directions, the thermals, how do you behave in certain types of year, like how they traverse the landscape, all that stuff, and you know these things, then your impact on that farm is way less and you can hunt specific stand locations way more times than you can if you just walk straight line through a field, right through a bedding area to get to a stand that's in a good terrain feature like it has clicked for me so long ago now that I'm able to know, all right, well, it's cloudy outside, but I have a south wind. It's cloudy outside, so my thermals aren't gonna rise, They're gonna sink because of the clouds. 00:50:10 Speaker 4: So I don't want to be in this stand. I want to be in this stand. And so now all of these things that I've learned throughout the years from a strategic standpoint, it like I think, honestly, what it comes down to, mark is the decision making process is so much faster now than it was then. I just skip to the I do way less thinking about it, and I skip to the yes or no. Yes I'm gonna hunt this, No I'm not. 00:50:36 Speaker 5: Gonna hunt this. Yes I am gonna hunt today. No I'm not gonna hunt today. And when when it becomes. 00:50:40 Speaker 4: Binary, then it's so much easier to think and make decisions on on where you hunt and what strategies you should or should not implement. 00:51:00 Speaker 2: What comes to mind is you're saying that, and something I think is true for me too, is that old line when it comes to like carpentry or something, is you know, measure twice, cut once. Yep, there's something to be said about you know, a lot of this is hunting smarter, not necessarily harder. You know, I used to take the brute force approach, and now it's much more of this. You know, you've we have so much experience in data points and you know, past experiences to look back on that will allow you to be you know, sometimes you know, don't give the deer too much credit, punch right in there, be aggressive, but you're doing it in a smart way. And then other times, just knowing it's this isn't the time to do it. I could hunt seven days straight and just make things worse. Maybe I should just hunt four days or three days on the right moments or in the right places or in the right ways or whatever. It is, so much more of that is how I approach hunting now too. And then and then all of that then balancing back to what we talked about, because because we're focusing on other things than just this is not only making us more effective as hunters, but it's making us better husbands or fathers or people, which is a big part of all that too. Now, the flip set of all that, a lot of what you said resonates with me. But I've also had another kind of epiphany as I've gotten up there an age, which is I've also discovered. 00:52:23 Speaker 3: A new found humility. 00:52:25 Speaker 2: Maybe or I'm alleviating expectations I placed on myself a little bit, because I got to a point, maybe in my early thirties, where I thought, like, I know what I'm doing, Like I've got this shit figured out. I've got I know what I should be doing, I know the right move, I know what to do, when to do it, where to be, and then the deer don't cooperate, or something crazy happens, or you know, the neighbor does something, and then you you know, I would be beating myself up or upset about it or stressing about And what I've kind of gotten to now is realizing that you can do everything right all the time and it still doesn't happen right because there's so many outside so many outside variables. These are wild animals, we're in wild places or or not so wild places, with invariables like people and all. 00:53:10 Speaker 3: Sorts of crazy things. 00:53:10 Speaker 2: So I've also gotten to a point now where I hunt smarter, maybe not harder, I have more confidence, but at the same time, I'm also much more quick or much faster to forgive myself or to say ah, oh well than I used to be, because I've kind of gotten to the point now where I've I've i haven't seen it all, but I've seen a lot. 00:53:30 Speaker 3: I've seen things go sideways in so many. 00:53:32 Speaker 2: Different ways that I that I've had to learn to like this is you know, some of like the cheesy self help stuff these days they talk about self compassion. 00:53:41 Speaker 3: I don't. 00:53:42 Speaker 2: I don't this is I'm not talking about self compassion, but whatever. The hunting version of that would be just like a little bit of like cutting yourself a little bit of slack, because like stuff just goes wrong sometimes too. And and I've found that that sometimes mentally as a hunter, is really important is to is to get yourself like give yourself a get out of jail free card every once in a while, because like, stuff's not always going to go the way you write it up. Stuff's not always gonna they're not gonna follow the script most of the time. 00:54:09 Speaker 3: They don't follow the script ninety nine percent of the time. 00:54:11 Speaker 2: Even for the absolute single best hunter in the world, whoever, that is ninety nine percent of the time. It's not going right for them, right, yeah, so why should it be different for us? 00:54:20 Speaker 4: Yeah? Here's what I think. 00:54:28 Speaker 5: The stuff that I think about is, or a big realization that I've kind of had, is you're not in control. 00:54:34 Speaker 4: And when you're talking with mother nature, you're never in control. 00:54:36 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:54:37 Speaker 4: Right. 00:54:37 Speaker 5: You can do all of these things like our friends who manage thousands of acres and plant the food plots and do the hinge cutting, and they basically are growing deer on their property. Then you start getting closer to this this where you are in control, and sometimes it works. Most of the time it works, but there's still some times where it doesn't work. But for me, knowing that I'm not in control is part of the allure of what makes hunting so awesome because you go into an environment that you don't live in, right, that you haven't like. For me, I don't do any I did some hinge cutting this year for the first time ever. I don't have any food plots planted, and so when I go into an environment like that, it's me versus them. So there is a little bit of this challenge where I need to beat them. I need to get within thirty yards or so of them twenty yards would be awesome and get as close to them as humanly possible and play a game. It's like it's a game, but when after the game is over, whether you win or lose, you can't go home and pout about it. You just get back out there the next time and you learn from whatever it is you did. Like I'm not like, I'm way past Like why didn't this dear come in? 00:55:58 Speaker 4: What happened these probably with the dough dude, Like he's probably eating acorns and laying on his fat belly somewhere. There are so many things that we we are not in control of, and because we're greedy humans, we want to be in control of everything. 00:56:13 Speaker 5: Yeah, and like this is nature, dude, we're not. And so like it's the hardest, it's the hardest thing to give up. 00:56:21 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:56:22 Speaker 2: I think that's like a thing that I have always struggled with because of my like innate personality traits. But I think the more I lean into like embracing that very thing that you just mentioned, embracing the fact that most nights it's not going to go they want to go, Yeah, and most hunts aren't going to end the way you wanted to. But but it all goes back to something we've talked about for years and years, Dan, But I feel like every year we're relearning it in some way. It's it's embracing the process, embracing the journey and being less worried about the end outcome. Like I can never remind myself of that enough, and I feel like I'm slowly and slowly getting there. But that's like one of the most important things. And like, as I'm reaching this new stag, like that's becoming ever more clear that again, percent of the time you spent you spend as a hunter is in the process. It's not actually in that final amazing moment. And so that that kind of brings back to another thing that I have found has become more and more important for me at this middle aged stage, which is that the how or the way I do it or the how I do it is more important than having done it or like having filled the tag or killed. So I'm I'm much more interested now, and you know, not saying I wouldn't. You know, Sometimes you just get a gift, like day one, a big deer shows up on a trip and you get it and. 00:57:40 Speaker 4: It's awesome, it's cool. 00:57:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, But like I'm much more interested in going on a trip that is going to involve me, like doing something in a specific way that's really cool. Like I want to go to this place because I'm gonna have to float this river and hunt deer along the way, or I know I'm going to camp out on this grassy bluff for seven days and get to glass and get to wash deer from a long distance and get to spot and stalk or whatever the thing is. Or yeah, I'm more interested in getting dear close, like like my archery journey has been example of this. Like, yeah, I used to be like I want more opportunities. I want to be able to shoot farther. I want to just gives many chances of big buck as I possibly could. And that led to you know, bad outcomes or less than a deal outcomes, and YadA, YadA, YadA. It's led to me now where I'm like, man, I want to get close to animals. I want to have as few bad things happen as possible. So I've actually had my rain shrink. 00:58:27 Speaker 3: Every year because I would rather have a. 00:58:30 Speaker 2: Few great experiences, perfect shots at thirty yards and in and and have great views and see cool things happen that they don't get a shot at, yep, versus flinging arrows at a distance and on a wish in a prayer and then having. 00:58:46 Speaker 3: Horrible weeks or days because of it. 00:58:48 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:58:49 Speaker 2: Yeah, Or I want to you know, I want to bowl hunt more than I want to do like seven hundred yard long distance gun shots or yeah. 00:58:56 Speaker 3: Whatever. 00:58:56 Speaker 2: It is, like my my decisions around, like the gear I use and the ways I hunt or the wear I hunt, all of that is becoming more important than like how many deer I kill it here. 00:59:07 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm in a little bit different more of a different boat. Like I really do feel that the number of deer I kill is the what I am what I quantify success as now in a way, in a weird way though, because I was talking to this with another guy a while ago, and I think, I go, you know, what's badass is opening up your freezer door and having it be filled with animals that you shot with a bow and arrow that feed fame. So I'm not talking about antlers at all at this point. I'm talking about shooting a dough this fall for one reason only, and that's to turn her into breakfast sausage because my kids love breakfast sausage, right, and with it like. 00:59:58 Speaker 4: Yeah, and so I am. 01:00:01 Speaker 5: I am looking for a little bit of quantity at this point, because filling tags is awesome, right, But there's also the other side of me that wants to be that calculated guy who's like, all right, big buck time, right, big buck time. But I think it's how you handle the big buck approach and when things go wrong that. 01:00:22 Speaker 4: Tell you where you're at. 01:00:24 Speaker 5: Because for me, I had this deer show up, or the two deer that we talked about at the beginning of the episode that didn't show up, they just disappeared. 01:00:33 Speaker 4: Then I had this other deer show up. 01:00:35 Speaker 5: It was the biggest buck on the farm at the time, right, And because of the trail cameras, I got to everything moving around from the tree stand the last four days. Finally shows up and I pass him because at this point it's not about the antlers anymore. It's about something else, right, And I didn't necessarily pass him because he was young. 01:00:57 Speaker 4: I didn't pass him. I mean, he would have been maybe the top three or four deer that I've ever shot from a score standpoint. 01:01:05 Speaker 5: That didn't matter to me. It was just the fact that I didn't feel it was the right time for. 01:01:10 Speaker 4: That buck to die for me anyway, and I was looking for something different and I couldn't. I can't tell you what it is. 01:01:17 Speaker 5: It's just I wasn't ready, and that deer got a pass because of that, and so that deer walked. Who knows if he's alive today or someone else shot him, I don't know. But I wasn't in the mood for that particular buck at that particular time, and so I don't know. That's a very hard thing to describe passing deer, not because of age, not because of antler size, because he had a decent body and he did have a decent rack, and if it was an out of state hunt, I definitely would have shot him. 01:01:52 Speaker 4: But at that point in Iowa, it was a no go for me. 01:01:56 Speaker 3: Dude. It goes back. 01:01:57 Speaker 2: It all comes back to what a wise man wants and said a long time ago. Now he's an old man now, but once long ago he. 01:02:04 Speaker 4: Was exactly what you're gonna say, you son of a bitch. 01:02:08 Speaker 3: He said. That buck made me go. 01:02:12 Speaker 4: So you know, there's a state park where I live and it's got some fancy quote by uh was Aldo Leopold. Yeah, it's like this beautiful quote. 01:02:26 Speaker 5: And then there's this statue of me with this like mangled face and mangled hand. 01:02:32 Speaker 4: It's like past him because he did make me go. Uh you know, it's just like the most like behemoth thing, just. 01:02:40 Speaker 3: Like cave man man. 01:02:42 Speaker 4: Yeah, this cave man. So I'm glad you brought that up. 01:02:46 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we'll never forget. But but it's true, right, I mean it comes I feel the exact same way. 01:02:52 Speaker 3: Uh. Number one on the love and have meat in the freezer. 01:02:56 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, love hunting doze and making sure you get a full freezer. But then when it comes to like what you're gonna do with your buck tags, I feel much much less. I think there was a phase in my life where I felt a certain pressure, like outside pressure, like oh man, you shouldn't pass that buck. That's like all your buddies would be giving you a hard time like that you got to shoot that buck, or or you felt you should be passing other bucks because you should be trying to shoot a big buck because everybody else was or whatever was yep, And I just I've gotten to the point finally that I just don't care anymore, and that when it comes down to is it's got to be the right moment and decision and thing for you, and no one else is gonna understand that nobody else will be going through the same things as you or or want the same experience that you do. 01:03:37 Speaker 3: But but you know, removing. 01:03:40 Speaker 2: All outside expectations, removing all outside opinions from that decision has really helped me just enjoy those, you know, experiences and decisions more. Like I had a similar thing last year where, you know, on one of the places that I hunt, I was after two bucks, and like, those are the two oldest bucks, those are the bucks that I want to get after, and then they disappear. And then this new buck showed up in late October, I guess it was, and he was like a really nice buck. In most years, I probably would have targeted him. 01:04:09 Speaker 3: I was like kind of on the fence, is he fully mature? Is he not fully mature? 01:04:12 Speaker 2: But man, he was a nice deer and I just kind of felt like, I just people would probably think I'm crazy not to try to kill this deer in Michigan, but I just he's not. 01:04:21 Speaker 3: He's just not the one I'm after right now. And I just didn't. 01:04:24 Speaker 2: Have the drive to go chase that deer, even though like really nice buck, but I wanted to hold out to see if one of these other deer would show up eventually. And I knew i'd feel bad that if I if I did, if I shot this deer, because I knew I should, I should shoot that deer, I would feel guilty about that forever, Like I feel like that would like be doing like that deer a disservice, that'd be doing it myself a disservice. So so yeah, I think a lot of this comes down to just we're doing things for different reasons. 01:04:55 Speaker 4: Now. 01:04:56 Speaker 2: We're more comfortable in our own skin and our decisions and our values and the whys and hows of what we do and in a certain way that's not a certain way. In a lot of ways like that, that's pretty freeing. The more I think you remove other people from your hunting decisions and how you enjoy it, I think the better, because it's hard to do these days with like our internet world. I think that's one of the biggest things that it as an old man, as an old middle aged man speaking to the next generation, which is not me anymore. That's that's like one of the biggest things I gotta believe that these kids are growing up with now is like everything is media, Everything is broadcast to the world, everything is looking for likes and clicks and dms and whatevers. But the more you can remove yourself from that, I think the better. And I think we both probably learned that the hard way because we've both gone through that ourselves. Yeah, and now in this new phase, hopefully we're kind of finding a more sustainable middle ground. 01:05:56 Speaker 4: Yeah. 01:05:56 Speaker 5: Absolutely, Man, I hate social media. It's you got it, Like I just have to be on it every once in a while and and do it and I don't know. 01:06:06 Speaker 2: It's It's amazing though, Like how like when I was gone for the last six seven days and I wasn't able to check in, It's amazing, Like how much bandwidth that opens up in your mind when you just never are thinking about that and you never feel like the instinctual like you just pull up your phone and pull up Instagram just without even thinking about just happens, and then all of a sudden you're looking at some stupid thing you don't care about. 01:06:27 Speaker 3: It at all. 01:06:28 Speaker 2: When that when that is not a possibility at all, it is so like rejuvenating for your mind and body. Yeah, so that's another thing that I that I'm not good at. 01:06:38 Speaker 3: Still. I've been preaching it for years. 01:06:40 Speaker 2: I try to do it, but I'm never as good as it I should be. But man, keeping the phone tucked away when you're hunting. The more I can keep that thing away and not get sucked into the phone when you're hunting, the better to enjoy the whole fact, to the enjoying the experience, you know. 01:06:53 Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, I forgot I forgot my phone in the truck this past year. And the first like thirty minutes of the hunt, after I got set up and I was sitting and just kind of chilling, I was like, oh my god, this sucks. 01:07:10 Speaker 4: I need my phone. I gotta check emails. I gotta do this. 01:07:13 Speaker 5: But then like after the the addiction part of it wore off, it was awesome. 01:07:19 Speaker 4: I was relaxed, I was watching birds. I was just like just like kind of remembering what it was like to go back to a time before cell phones and just sitting in a tree for hours with nothing other than a bottle of water or some snacks or something like that, and that's it, dude. And it's like like, imagine a time where you don't know what time it is, Like remember going hunting. I can remember going hunting. 01:07:49 Speaker 5: When I first started hunting, there was no time unless I wore a watch, there's no time. And so you're sitting there, sons come up and you're like, oh my god, I've been here forever, and you get back to the truck it's like eight o'clock or you're like, god, you know, like I'm getting hungry, it can't be eight o'clock yet. And then you get back to the truck and it's eleven, right, And so when you lose track of time, that's when you really, in my opinion, you kind of like experience, like the experience is purified and you just I don't know, but you don't get that anymore because you're like I'm in, I'm in at this time and I'm out at this time, or I got to be here because you know when the wind is going to shift, and then you're not actually experiencing the wind shift. You're preparing for the wind shift, and it's just everything's different than what it used to be. 01:08:40 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the truth. 01:08:43 Speaker 2: I think so much of what we've talked about has has come back to like fully embracing the here, the now, the people, the place, and worrying less and less about all the stuff that's not in your control. 01:08:57 Speaker 3: Right. 01:08:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's you know, ultimately not that important. So I think that might be a good place to wrap it up, Dan. 01:09:05 Speaker 3: What's new? What's new in your world? With content? 01:09:08 Speaker 2: With podcasts, with projects, what some folks know about? Where can they listen? Where can they connect with you? 01:09:15 Speaker 4: Yeah? 01:09:16 Speaker 5: Same place as always, Man, I would say that the best place to look for content is the Sportsman's Empire. 01:09:24 Speaker 4: And that's just. 01:09:25 Speaker 5: Not my stuff, but that's the network that we've created over here with just I mean, like whether you live in the Northeast or you hunt the West, everything kind of in between, we have a podcast for you, you know, like whether it's hound hunting, whether it's fishing, whether it's turkey hunting, so forth and so on. I mean, we cover a little bit of everything, and we have some really good podcast hosts. And that's where I would I would send everybody is the Sportsman's Empire and you can have your pick of what you want to listen to. 01:10:00 Speaker 2: What is one episode of the Nine Finger Chronicles that you would send people to listen to if they haven't, if they haven't heard in recent weeks or months, what's the one favorite of years that they should go listen to right now? 01:10:12 Speaker 4: Okay, so this is a great talk talking point. 01:10:15 Speaker 5: Right So, I do have to tell you that every time I have Tony Peterson on the podcast. 01:10:21 Speaker 4: He cheap shots you, dude, I believe it. He throws some jabs at you. 01:10:25 Speaker 5: Okay, and so yeah, and so I feel like, on this podcast, or maybe you just come on my podcast and you talk shit on Tony Peterson for a whole hour, I would allow it just because he takes like, he takes advantage. 01:10:41 Speaker 4: Of your kindness. I feel like, and you might be right. 01:10:45 Speaker 5: So any any episode with Tony Peterson's a good one. But at the same time, you probably shouldn't listen to those because he takes a jab at you every once in a while. 01:10:55 Speaker 3: My feelings hurt. 01:10:56 Speaker 4: Yeah. 01:10:56 Speaker 2: I love your idea. We we talked about this over text. We just need to do it now. You need to have a podcast that's nothing but talking smack about Tony and uncovering all the skeletons in his closet for the rest of the world. Yep, So let's just make that happen, expose him for what exactly what he is. And I don't know what he is, but he likes heavy metal music. Like, have you talked to Tony about the kind of music that he likes? 01:11:21 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, he likes uh dark yeah dark that Oh the tea tool, Yes, loves tool, loves tool tool. 01:11:32 Speaker 4: Yeah. 01:11:32 Speaker 2: I mean he's got like a dark dark yeah, brooding mind. 01:11:37 Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll say this. Tony's a great guy. 01:11:40 Speaker 5: But I would not be surprised if I see him on an episode of Dateline where the FBI is like, hey, we found seventeen bodies under this dude's house. He's been collecting them for like ten years, and he takes it to that. But I just would be like, I can see that. 01:11:59 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, he's uh, there's a lot under the surface there, Dan, there's a lot out of the surface exactly. Well, hey man, this has been fun. Yeah, glad we could do it. I appreciate you and stood against him absolutely. 01:12:14 Speaker 4: Mark kill a big buck this year, you too. 01:12:20 Speaker 3: All right, And that's going to do it for us today. 01:12:22 Speaker 2: I appreciate you joining me and Dan as we kind of ramble and pontificate and self examine what this new stage of our hunting life is all about, what we've learned, and what it means for the future. So thank you for being here. I appreciate you being a part of this community. And if you've been with us since the beginning, if you have been here since two thousand and eight, God bless you. Thank you for being on this ride. If you've been tuning into the podcast since we started in thirteen or fourteen, thank you. 01:12:52 Speaker 3: We appreciate your support so much. I appreciate your. 01:12:55 Speaker 2: Attention, your time, and being a part of this community. So thank you, and until next time, stay wired to hunt. Mm hmm.

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