00:00:02 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I am Ben O'Brien, and this week I am in the offices of the Meat Eater here in Boseman, Montana, and I am joined by the great and powerful Mark Kenyon of Wired Hunt. Now you're gonna know Mark as a personality in our little Meat Eater family, which are also going to know him from all of his wonderful Wired Hunt media products. He's a white tailed dude, you know, self described white tail guy, and uh, I like him for that because I grew up as a white tail guy really on the eastern East Coast over there in Maryland, and I can relate to a lot of things that he loves to do. I love to do him too. Um. And so it's a great conversation around um our meat Eater Christmas party, but it broke into some more serious conversation around the imperfect because a bow hunting around some of the imperfections around finding deer once you've hit them, and then should you tag a deer or not if you wounded it. A bunch of heavy topics, a bunch of laughs, a bunch of fun stuff. That's Mark Kenyon right now. Hey Mark Kenyon, Hey Ben O'Brien. We're just talking about the amount of podcasts, Like how many podcasts you feel like you've done both you've been involved in but then also hosted. It's gotta be a lot of them, a whole lot to under sixty years so Wired Hunt sixty five or so of another series I did and guests on a lot. You were like the you were like the pioneer of one of the pioneers podcast. You had to be one of the pioneers. Yeah, there's a few others before me, but definitely I launched it, launched the wire un podcast back in the spring of two thousand and fourteen. Wow, Okay, who's around then? Was there any other podcast around then? Because I certainly wouldn't listen to podcast. You know, the first hunting podcast I ever listened to was called bow Cast, I think, and I listened that way back in two thousand nine. I don't think that podcast lasted. I think it was around for a little bit and then it was off the rator by the time I started podcasting. Um, but I listened to that one. Peterson's Bow Hunting had a podcast way back in two thousand nine for a little bit too that I listened to, but then that kind of faded away. Um, so there's a couple that started early, and maybe it was almost a situation where it was a little bit too early for critical mass. Yeah, that that might that might have been it, because I think Christian Burgh had one that was that was the Peterson's. Yeah, way back when I was was at Peterson and he is the only person I knew that it had a podcast, and I thought that's kind of a weird underground radio show. Yeah, I mean it's a it's a great medium, and I kind of got lucky in that when I dove into his was kind of a perfect meeting of the right time and the right kind of content. Yeah. Just uh, you know, uh, something or everybody should know is that we were coming off the meat Eater Christmas party. So if we sound signed a little sluggish to begin, you know that we I mean there's a little bit of booze there. It was a little bit of booze. So I got a full cup of coffee in from of me that I haven't got to dive into yet. Yeah, I feel free to just to I mean, people enjoy. I'm all, I don't drink coffee, So I'm drinking hot chocolate. That was really interesting me. But he told me a few minutes ago that you never even tasted a sip of coffee, not that I can remember. Now. I don't know, you know, saying it, don't recording like that. I don't know. Maybe one time I did, but I don't remember. I don't remember doing it. I've certainly never took an intentional drink of coffee. Are you susceptible to peer pressure? No? So if I were to tell your podcast audience that we needed to all comment and message you and tweet you enough, if that was, if there's a landslide of of protests that been needed to try coffee, would you give in for your listeners, for your beloved, for my people. I probably, I mean, like I said, I'm not I don't necessarily I'm not a staunch, you know, anti coffee person. Yeah, pro pro yes, I think that. Um, I would probably try it, and then I would probably just you know, listen, people, it taste tastes terrible. You probably wouldn't like it. It doesn't. It doesn't taste good. It's not that tastes like a sock. I heard, you know. That's not a bad way to describe it. But socks are inquired taste. Yeah, and listen, it's got it's got drugs bill into it that gets you all addicted and next thing you know. So I I um not against it. I have very many, many friends and colleagues and family members who I think I'm foolish for not for not doing it. But it more power to you if you don't need be given to the caffeine drug and you can still be productive and effective. And I happy, dude, go for it. Yeah, I mean I think I'm doing all right. He's like, I'm tired a lot, like I probably get these little energy like if I drank if I drank a five hour energy, I would die, like if I immediately if I just drank a fool one of those things like chugged one. I had a boss one time who would drink like three or four of those things in a day, which really covers all the day about four hours if you drink four of them. And she would like three during the workday, have three of those things. And uh, I did try to sip of that one time and I had almost had to go home, Like, yeah, that sounds dangerous. Drinking that many, and so that that was part of it. Like yeah, but I still you know, now we're getting really deep, deep into my like what's going down in my life? Which is all we want to know. That's all it is. I eat a lot of sugar, So I'm not I got I got. No. We had Janna tell us his wife made this, like they call him adult cookies. I don't know why not because they're calling them, yeah, because I think it takes so long to make them that they don't want to have the children eat him because they want to appreciate it. I would have thought it was something else. That's what I was thinking. I'm like, let's go, let's get it done for these adults cookies. I've had some in Colorado exactly. But I wonder why you're lingering that corner all night. You wonder why it has a bit the chippies in the cookies. Um, I must eating like a leven and these cookies that can't be I mean, that's not good for you, probably not great. Um, but I'll yeah, I don't. I don't drink a whole town. I don't. I don't smoke, I don't dip. I don't drink coffee. But boy, like I'll rock a cake man, like half a cake. I don't even care. So listen, I'm not without like I can't make fun of the coffee drinkers for having advice, like because most people drink coffee, Like I can't get my morning started with a coffee man, And that's how you are with talcol cake. Yeah, like I'll have I need my jool cake. Well, yeah, I see you saw my truck this morning. It's full of cake wrappers and yeah yeah, yeah yeah, like a nice sparkling water, yeah they say that, right, yeah, well no, those were Pellegrinos greenos, like giant bottles are huge. I thought you had giant bottles of open wine bottles, like sparkling white wine. This guy's about it's Christmas season. No, I do like I do like a nice sparkling water. That's good. I required that taste when I worked at Yett and they had free Lacroix. That's one thing I never got into. But I know a lot of people like it. But that's like that, it's nice. This is the plan for the whole podcast, right, it's just talking about beverages consumption habits. Yes, that's actually got I have a special announcement. That's we're changing the subject matter. Hunting is getting a little bit old. Um, we feel like we've done it all and we're just gonna yeah caffeine and caffeine related beverages. But yeah, that the meat eater Christmas parties every good time. Had a very good time. It was fantastic. It's cool, like we was telling me a little a little earlier. Just cool to see this whole group of people that to this point has largely been scattered all across the country, everyone kind of doing their own thing. Um. It was it was just an idea six months ago in a lot of ways, um, and now all of a sudden, we're here with a whole group of people all together, working towards a common cause and seeing that physically manifested that was. That was exciting. Yeah, we've talked about it before. I know, Like, but companies are these imperfect you know, entities that that have all these imperfections. And then a lot of times, um, we focus on those imperfections because we're trying to fix them, right, and that's for good reason. But it's nights like last night where you just in your people everybody's having fun, everybody's having a drink, and everybody's eating good food. We had like fresh oysters and Dungeoness crabs and seeking Dear Him and all kind of stuff, and um, it's fantastic. And and you kind of forget about those imperfections for a while because you don't have to, like there's no problems to solve any more. Um, not that you know this. It's not a bad thing. It's just how it is. But I needed its needed. Every once in a while you need to just kind of like sit back and and and the holiday seasons are good for that, but like take stock and like what's really going on here? Um, and we get overstated for marketing purposes. But it's a pretty pretty cool thing to be a part of. I would say I would. I would say so too. Um yeah, I don't know if I haven't even know. There wasn't anybody who was like that guy at the Christmas party I left pretty early. Yeah, but nobody, nobody. Uh, I didn't see anyone who's going to be getting like a terse email this morning or anything like dear sir. Yeah, none of that appropriate behavior in the subject. That's good. Yeah, No, we we had a white Christmas party, Christmas gift party. I think it's called a white elephant. Was that? What is white? What I say white Christmas Christmas? Like white white elephant is the white elephant Christmas? Yeah, white elephant. Whereas you get a gift and then you steal other people a gift and steal them all that it's it's very very ruthless. You got kind of yeah, you were a frequent victim. Yeah. We had a deal, like at the very start of the party, before the booze started flowing, we had a deal where you would shoot the There was a squirrel target on the back fence at our CEO's house, and if you could hit it with the twenty two, you got squirrel. And that squirrel we gave you like special powers at the White Christmas Elephant gift exchange that we helped and like I had a squirrel because I hit this hit the thing with the two and I was very confused about how to use the squirrel, but it gave you like a power to like steal at any time or whatever. I ended up with a suite like a lever action NERF gun and had a sheriff's badge with the sheriffs badge. I feel like was the part that you liked the most. And I stole this from a coworker and I put on the sheriff's likely and I thought, well, I've got this, and like I've got the squirrel, nobody can take this from me. I'm going to go ahead and like unpack the gift and put on the sheriff's badge like like I was. Yeah, I think everybody noticed that I was. And there was there apparently was an access of evil, like three people in the corner that we're conspiring to take the person's gift who seemed the most excited about what they had. Annie was very, very excited about ruining you. And we need to call her. Annie Razor is our VP of production. She's really the magician behind me either TV and all these fancy commercials you're seeing. But she at this moment and Josh Prestin as well, and Brodie Henderson. I think I can't remember the three, but they conspired to take away my joy. Yeah, when they walked over and pulled that sheriff's badge off you, you could see it in your eyes, could like crestfallen. Several of us knows that, like, did you see Ben's a little sparkle? Do you see that just a little bit of soul? Dead? Have that little sparkle just just disappeared and you'll never You'll never get it back. I'm sorry. Yeah, but I end up with M and m's I don't know, with like a yard long Eminem's good for the sugar guy, that's good for me. Maybe that's probably better because I would definitely shoot everyone around the office. You laid in bed undneath the covers last night, slowly weeping and eating so many of it. But yes, I mean those things devolved into like you know, fun time, fun times, but they did steal my joy. Um, so I'd like to call those people out for there. I think it's good. And they told me later. They came over and they said, well, you definitely conspired against you, only because I seem to have the most joy man some people. But the world is a tough place, smart Kenyon, I've noticed, Yeah, which is why we need podcasts like this. Yeah, talk it through, Yes, otherwise I wouldn't you know? That just feels pretty cathartic. I feel a little better about my life. That's all this podcast ever was for right, just to stroke your ego and make you feel better. It's that's all it is. I think I said that at the beginning, like this is for me. I don't know, think I'm sorry about if you don't like me talking about the Christmas party. I don't have ever done. That's all I ever done. Word too. But yeah, yeah, you're the vet. I mean, there's no way to pivot from the Christmas party to deer hunting, so we might as well just yeah, I want how how do you make that transition? Just do it? I don't know, I'm not sure, but I like, you know, I would say I said this when I had Ryan Callahan on the podcast, that I felt like a good segment might be like the ship that's bothering me? Not say, we don't have segments here on this program, but we do have things that I like to talk about pretty much every episode to annoy folks. But also so can we call that a segment? Should I like to talk about on pretty much every episode? Pretty much every episode? Yeah? Sponsored by Mark Kenyon's, sponsored by Coming for That, Sponsored by Black Rifle Coffee, which is it looks like it's a nice company. I haven't friends, We have like a big pile of it here in the for that last track, UM, I have a lot a lot of nice people work there. I just don't you know, I've never had their product. Did they pay you for this promotion? They did? Chit chen. Um. There's some things in the white tail world that bothered me now. But you know, for for point of fact, I am you know, I grew up a white tail hunter. I once wrote a white tail column for Peterson Sunny Magazine and and um a white tail blog for an RaSE American hunter. So growing you know, coming up in the industry and growing up, I think the at some level I was like, I'm gonna be a white tail guy, you know, like a white tail expert guy, um, or at least somebody that wrote a lot about white tails. M And you realized early on that was a path for despots and the low i Q types like me. Yeah, it's a path for the caveman like you. No. I just I think I just um ah hunted other things that I could hunt everything. But I still think white tails man. I would say that the best thing in the world is sitting in a tree and in like knowing every corner of an area where you're set of stand and then finally hearing that like, yes, and it's not a squirrel this time, because before it was. And I have to try to explain it to my wife a bunch of times around, like I can tell you what a squirrel sounds like and what a deer sounds like in a raccoon, and I can tell you abou an armadillo sounds like from living in Texas. Um, but there's I still feel like I've heard help bugle, I've hunted, go through all the things I've hunted, I've heard moose doing their thing. Um. But man, that like is um the pinnacle I believe, And it's the pinnacle enough in a very different way from those other experiences you mentioned, because those other experiences like an elk bugling or seeing a gown a mountaintop, those things are are are quite intense, while the moments as a white tail hunter are are punctual or there they are what they are because of the lack of intensity. For so much of the time, it's it's long stretches of monotony where hopefully you can fall into an almost zend state where you're just taking in the world around you and it's opportunity to to kind of yeah, I do that every time in the treesta and literally make that noise. Maybe that's why I'm not seeing doing it too loud. They can hear the vibrations, but but you do kind of slip into like the stream of consciousness of the woods. When you sit there long enough and it quiets down, you're just kind of part of it. And then though that is occasionally punctuated by these moments of this adrenaline burst of something happening. And it's those those contrasts that make it really exciting, and in a very different way than an elkhin is exciting. They're both really great, um in their own way. But what hunting is, I just grew up spending so much time and and you know like tall timber country that um, that's just that you know, that feeling you know, East Coast, big tall oaks and you know like pretty you know where we were, mountainous country, and so I just just being in that setting, watching leaves falling out of the tree, the heightens, like said, the heightened sense of awareness of you know, animals move birds. When the birds first start, you know, they're usually the first to sound off, but also things like when a squirrels chattering at you and you're like, okay, well that's that's an announcement to everything else around that what I've been up to. So yeah, I mean I think there is I have an appreciation that because like signifies everything that, like the foundational elements of my hunting life, you know, it signifies all these like none of this other stuff would have happened if it wasn't four before that. And so I'm um living here though, I mean living in Montana, there's there's some white tails around, but I'll never get the feeling of like being in a tree stand in a large set of timber, you know, leaves falling around me with with you know, listening for that, it's more yeah, it squirrels, Like there's a certain cadence with you've got the front step or the front leg in the back like coming up and there's like bum bum bum bum. Yeah, that's the rhythm that you here that you realize, yeah, yeah, and that's in you know, there's a lot of stuff that comes to mind, but that that ends up for me being it's the pinnacle. It really just from it kind of and I think about it I think, like, let's let's rewind the calendar a couple of months. I can go do it right now. So I worry that because you you prelided all this by saying that we are entering the at the bother's bend segment, and so I feel like you're really setting me up, like all this stuff is so good. But no, no, I think that I got a lot of ship that bothers me. I mean, I'm from the East Coast and I'm Irish, Like this is pretty much that. This is all. That's all. That's all we have speaking of Christmas parties. Yeah, I mean, drink and be bothered by things is just about all that we do. Um, I'd love to be one of those family unions. I feel like, yeah, it's just I mean, it's I got something I got. This is what grinds my gears. She grinds my gears. Um, so sorry, I didn't mean derail you know, no I did. I was kind of setting you up a little bit there, Like that's one of those compliments sandwiches. Well one with another compliment, I say, all this is a like part of my um, it's the self Estations podcast is because there are there are some things. Loving deer hunting so much and having worked around at some point in my career the North American White Hole Crew, getting to note those folks and working on their website a little bit, and getting to know a Winkie over the years, getting to know John Dudley over the years, getting to know some of the best you know, Lee and Tiffany, getting to know some of the best that do it, and seeing um the way they expressed their deer hunting, and seeing some of the changes really in the the deer hunting culture that you have driven. A lot of which you have driven, UM, there's still some things that like, there's still some wise that I think um or worth talking about. Let's do it, okay. Uh. The first of them is around um, how like how long do you leave a deer lay? I think in the prevailing I came up watching like The Hunter Specialties DVDs and Real Tree, Monster Bucks. I came up doing that, and I feel as though there's some things in the culture like we're seeded there and it just remained um just because that's that was the media that was available at the time, and then that kind of got seated into out their TV and just became like Paul Art of the thing that you do right, You shoot a deer and you leave it leg Now these are very general statements, but in general, I feel like, no matter if it's a big mature buck or it's I'm just shot a dough or whatever the case is, I've still regardless, I'm still thinking meat first. And you know, once I've got got a hole in the deer them, you know I was targeting or or wanting to kill, and so I'm still thinking meat first. So it comes down to for me, like i've shot a deer, either have an idea where the hit is. You know, we're talking archery here probably, but rifle as well, rifle less. So, but I have an idea where the hit is. I feel like it was a good shot. Um, A lot of folks don't film, you know, don't have film of every deer they've shot, so you can't go back and look at the video tape. A lot of times, like you know, your mind is moving so fast and you're you know a lot of this is reflex and instinct and in arch read in these close quarter situations, you think you hit him, well, you're not sure the blood you know, here. Another point of this is like what kind of how to read blood and how to understand how to track an animal that guys culturally are pushed to leave a deer lay overnight or for eight hours or the the Would you agree that the the prevailing thought is the longer you leave it lay, the better the chance of recovering the deer. I would say not entirely, But there are certainly situations where a common belief is better safe and sorry a lot of times, and I think sometimes that's warranted, sometimes not. And I can expand on it if you want, please, So I get what you're saying. Your issue is that too many people are letting these deer lay because they just want to make sure they get that buck or whatever, not taking two count the fact that they're letting something away for eight hours and it's hot out and when they get that the meat soured and they don't recover that meat. Yeah, and or um cootes come into play. So that is certainly a risk in waiting to track a deer in certain situations. I would argue that there are some situations where if you feel very confident with where you saw that shot placement, if you saw you were were able to check the shot site of impact and saw this type of blood at the at the site, there's certain indicators that will tell you, you know what this is a this is a dead deer, Like this is this is a deer that was hit double lunged. Um, we've got great lung blood. That's kind of thing where there's just there's simply no need to wait that long, wait an hour, two hours max. Something like that. Um, your your meat is not gonna go bad in that shorter time frame, assuming it's not a twenty degrees or something. Um, in that kind of situation, give it just a little bit of time. Because there are situations where like a single a single long hit deer, Um, that might look like a great shot if it just if if the angles a little bit off and you just get one long, that deer can can go a little bit longer than you'd want it to. So the situations where you don't I would never say, go out there five minutes later, go bouncing right now, yeah, nor would I mean, I think you have to understand a lot of things, right. You have to understand how far can a deer go with a double up right? In generally a hundred yards is what. Yeah, I would say if I had ballpark it most of the time. Yeah. So I think this comes down to though. That takes a level of understanding of where you saw that arrow or bullet hit, what the sign looks like, what the situation was, and knowing, um, what the right next step is based off of that. And I think there might be a lot of people who see people on TV I'm gonna let it lay, gonna let it lay. You see that ton on TV and wait overnight and waitever night and whatever night, and a lot of people I think maybe just start assuming or do that no matter what. And so I would say in the situation, I just outlined where it's that kind of hey, this buck is here within a hundred yards, barring some kind of crazy, um shocking surprise. In that kind of situation, it does not make sense to to risk anything with that meat, especially if it's a warm days. Need you need to take temperature into account. So if it's a hot day, I'm moving all my time frames up because yes, there would be nothing more devastating to me than walking up on a deer that I killed and not being able to recover that meat. Except for having the hind end gun that is accept the one alternative. There's one thing that is more devastating to me than that, which is knowing that it hit a deer and knowing that deer is probably going to die because of where that shot was, but not recovering it at all, Which is why I still believe that there are some situations where it is right to wait, because it is better to recover a deer that's missing behind quarter or maybe a little bit of his his salard. It's better to make that recovery. It's not ideal, it's not what you want, but it's better to get that recovery than no recovery at all. Yeah, you're understand right, I mean, and I don't UM when I say this bothers me. I think it bothers me for the reasons you outlined around UM just depth of thought around these types of things. And let's not fall back on some prevailing the idea that leaving it lay is the right thing to do because you're being cautious and you're trying to recover that deer in um in the first place, that's the goal. You hit a deer, you need to recover it. And so you know, having a having a bigger conversation around the balancing act that occurs there. And I think you said a lot of what I think about what you have to as a deer hunter have to understand, right. You have to understand shot placement, shot angle, You have to understand the effectiveness of different types of shots. You have to understand. Then once you determine that, then the next step is determined. Okay, what's the temperature, right? What's the variabilities here? What's the temperature? What the levels of predation? Predation in this air? Where? Did what direction did this dear run? Did he run downhill? Did he run uphill? Is there a dry creek bed here? Is there a ravine he might is there a thick spot where he I know he might go. There's a ton of variables here. So but I think understanding that right, and so then you have you set that stage, paint that picture like, Okay, I hit him hard. I know I hit him hard. Hit him in a good spot, likely one long but probably too he ran downhill? You're like, what you know? His his front end was, you know, looking wobbly as he went downhill? Probably better way to say that, but that's that's what you're looking for. Yeah, go get that buck. Yeah, he ran downhill right, Well, he ran uphill, stood for a while and chased a dough off. Then I'm thinking, I don't know, um, but it's pretty warm, and we've seen a lot of coyotes today, and he ran into a place where he's probably just gonna stay right, So I'm thinking, okay out. I don't want to leave him lay over night in this scenario, but man, I've seen on TV like guys just leave lay over night and and I gotta recover him. I'll get get the antlers and maybe get the backstraps. But at this stage, I'm sure I'm not going to get I think I hit him good, but I'm sure I'm not gonna get the meat. At this point where I'm not gonna get all the meat. My philosophy there is just like I'm gonna find a way to determine where this tears at um. And then you have the other scenario where he runs close to a neighboring property, or he runs to a place where you're not if you push him, you push him on the public land, or push him into a place where he's gonna get whacked. Um, so I have for sure been I've been in a lot of these situations. You surely have as well. So um comes back to nuance. You gotta you gotta in in. There's some folks that are just getting to this that just haven't had the opportunity to have those experiences and learn yet. And that scenario, I would just caution people to not just see something on TV and say that's what's supposed to do. How to dive into it. There's a lot of great resources out there that that can walk you through what different colors of blood indicate. As far as shot impact, there's different resources that you can look at that will talk you through. Okay, if you see the arrow hit here, this is likely with the vitals that hit, this is likely. How much time you we would recommend you wait. Well, the Deer and Deer Hunting used to do like three D renderings of a app Yeah that show like show you exactly what vitals it probably went through. I don't know if it's still around, but it was a handy toolback on the day. Well, and then you also had a you know, different types of blood you can look you know, there's plenty of resources around what that looks like. If it's got it's bright red and has got bubbles in it, that's pretty surely long blood. If it's a the darker the blood, I mean you have dark like liver type blood, then you have if you're finding any bile or any types and chunks of greenys of green stuff, that's that's guts, Like, yeah, there's there's that's that's the kind of scenario. If you get a gut shot, pawn shot, that is the one scenario where you're probably not gonna over that deer unless you wait, because you're not gonna get a blood good blood trail at all. But that deer, if you do, let it lay down. And this is the the imperfect part of deer hunting. Yeah, right, And we talked about this sometimes that there's there are some scenarios where things even if you did everything you possibly could have done right, there are so many variables when it comes to any kind of hunting, well it's deer hunting, elk hunting, cabra hunting, there are variables outside of our control. Sometimes sometimes the shot does not go just perfect and you get a you get a gut shot for whatever reason. Something that happens. That what happened then is water under the bridge. But any time like this, this is what happened. It is not what I want to happen, is that it is a bad situation, but that is what happens. So how do I make the very best out of this less than ideal scenario? And in that case, let me let me stop you there, because this is something that I've wrestled with and I think I've come to this conclusion recently. Just over UM. I had there was a scenario last year or two years ago I had where somebody I was hunting with shot of deer and we argued about I said, go get at damn deer. Man. We've seen six coyotes in this five days we've been hunting. This is it was a big giant buck I mean it was the buckets shot. I'm arguing that was it was like a one lung through the liver, quartering two angle shot that wasn't the best shot in the world, right without the worst shot, not the worst shot in the world, a lethal shot. Because I filmed it, so we had filming went able to watch it. Um watched what the deer did. The deer ran down into a dry creek bed that kind of fingered off into two areas, and the guy was hunting with who on the property knew that this deer was likely going to get down in that and run that dry creek bed until it ended. And somebody somewhere in there like we kind of know where this deer went to lay. And I'm and he's like, well, we'll just leave it laver night. I'm like, if you leave later night, you're you're losing the meat, Like you're not getting it. It was cold enough for the meat to be But those guys are gonna find it. They're there. I mean, we saw three kids within the hundred yards where the deer is gonna end up, Like they're going to find it and they're going to get chew on it. Um. And it's also you know, partly shot in the guts, shot in the vitals, but also in the guts, so you know that thing is gonna be sour by the time you get to it. I was like, I know it's gonna die. I think it's gonna die in four hours or five hours, it would be my guess, um. And they shot at about eleven am. I'm so just wait till three or four. Um, then you have a hunter that's like not it wasn't necessarily in this case, but some hunters like it's a hundred a inch buck, I gotta get those anilers like like, well, I'd much rather have that deer run to tim Buck two and die over there and me never find him than me find him and not be able to eat the meat. See, that's where I would disagree with you, because you don't know, you won't be eating any to meat if you wait. Now. I would argue that in that situation, the US outline where you think that that book is gonna die in three or four hours or something like that, it's like a very safe than Yeah, I'm all for I go. I would go and get him. Then I would not. I would not let a buck lay overnight unless I absolutely thought that it was necessary. So the question come becomes how safe is safe? Yeah, And that's that's a that's a judgment called each person gotta make. But I there as I like I told you, like, there's nothing that would make me more sick. I'm very fortunate I've not yet lost the meat from a deer here, because that would just devastate me. I would feel I I personally cannot justify killing an animal unless I'm eating it from That's where I draw my line for myself. Um. But at the same time, if I shoot a deer and I think it's a gut shot, and I know, man, if I go in there right now, I'm bumping that deer and I'm never going to find it, um, then you have, in my opinion, that you have the way, because, like I said, it's better to recover, better, recover some portion of that animal then to completely go to waste. But it is, it is. It's a shitty situation and to be and you don't want to be in that situation. You you're doing your best to make the right judgment call yeah right or wrong? Right? I mean you're again it comes back to the responsibility of a hunter. Um. The last podcast I did with you know du Sean's Motana. I saw him on the website. I'm not familiar with otherwise. He's just a wonderful human. Um. But he grew up in Czechoslovakia and they had this thing called I'll butcher the pronunciation of it. But Micklovic and their culture means like hunter. What it also means thinker. That means like the way he describes that is like the hunter has to be um, has to be the well, has to be well studied, has to be well studied in the flora, like they take classes before they can go hunting on the flora and the faun on have to learn these things, and like the respect for the hunter comes from the depth of thought and knowledge of the outside world. And the way he describes that as like, that's your responsibility because you're selecting an animal. You have to know the animal because you're I take it from the herd to be taken and you're eating it, and then you're you have to be efficient to find it and kill it and then once you know, in this case, once you've killed it, recover it. So I always think about that. So at this you know, there's like a if this was you know, teetering on, how do you all do you push forward and find the deer or do you let it lay? I don't think there's a clean answer. I think what bothers me is that some hunters think there's a clean answer there that's like always leave it lay or fall back on any lay. So that's what bothers me, there's a lot of hunters out there that do it the right way. I think most people will do their best job at it. But I think some of the cultural, the just relevance of leave it lay needs to be explored. And I think that's a good I think it's a good point, and I do think that it probably stems from media where there's not I can't I can't claim to know the thought process for the folks on TV saying this, but I would guess that a lot of people at a out a lot of the thought process and just say, well, we're gonna let it lay, be safe, And maybe there was some serious thought in there and trying to find what their right judgment was, um, and then the viewer just misses out on that. So then it's just like thinking, well, this is just what you do. You just always let it lay. Or or maybe there is UM. Maybe there are people who are knowingly saying, well, I don't really care about the meat and I just want to get those antlers. I hope that's not the case. I pray that's not the case, but you know, there might be some folks out there like that. Yeah, And I'm sure you know it's hard. These conversations hard because you want to generalize in any way, right, you just can't. It's not fair to people to generalize anyway. UM. I'm sure there are people out there that are like, I'd rather like I either get the meat or the deer runs off. I don't care. And there's people out there that say, I don't care about the meat very much. If I get something, great, If not, I'm not really worried about it. As long as I get those antlers. That's what I'm That's what I'm here to do. Um. So you know, I think these complex issues always goes back to like it'll be a you know, be a thinker and make and you know, be the Mick lvic And I really like that. Yeah, man, it's the hunter and thinkers should be synonymous. Yeah. And so these are things that require thought. And I think, UM, in the white tailed world, like there has there's so much media out there, there's so much noise out there about um, this big buck or that big buck or that experience like this is one of those things that just it requires lots of knowledge. You know, you have it. I have some of it, Like I've tried to you know, as a function of my hunting. Learned these things, but it's worth three writing. These aren't with it? You can't really do it without these things. And I think it's there's nothing we do in our entire lives. I think that. And it's interesting because sometimes we grow up hunting and you just do it because it's what you do and just because it's what your dad or grandpa or whatever family member friend did and as a kid, it was fun and you used to it. And you know, myself, growing up, I didn't really put a whole lot of thought into it. I just knew I loved it. But as an adult now and having had the tune to think on these things a little bit more, I don't think there's anything more deserving of thoughtfulness and critical thinking in our lives and then hunting, because that's there's nothing more serious. There's nothing we are taking a life. Can you name one thing more serious than taking a life? So without a doubt that action should be something that serious thoughtfulness should be required. Yeah, yeah, that's how I like that, like the cultural significance of that, and that's and that's again it gets you know, we get real deep in this conversation, but it gets back into like what is a hunter traditionally in our society and our culture. I mean the hunter, a hunter was a provider. A hunter was you know, to be you know, really at you know, lack for lack of a better term. And there's a pun that I don't like, but like at the top of the food chain within a tribe, within a group of people, the hunter was seen, um was was seen with great significance. And I think, UM, I find our culture to be a little bit loose when it comes to that. Deer hunting cultures is the prevailing culture within the hunting world. More people go deer hunting than do anything else, by far, UM, and there's more dear than any other you know, game animal. America's big game animal by far. So there's a lot of influence that goes into that. So that's one that's one that UM, I think spends into another thing that we've been talking about lately here in the office, and you and I've talked about song is it just um the wound rates and you know, the way you put is like the imperfections of bow hunting right and some of the difficulties around how we treat archery as as a group and then the results UM and how and how open we are about the results for fear of for fear of UM, I would imagine for fear of attack, UM. You know, what's your take me through? Like as as somebody who hunts, you know, mainly with a bow, Like your thought processes when you're talking about archery on your podcast or when you're trying to get people into two hunting and lead them into hunting and say pick up a bow first, you know that's what you ought to do, Like, what are you what are you thinking about that? Well? I don't know if I wouldn't necessarily recommend that, Yeah, that probably wouldn't be what I was. If there's someone new to hunting, that might not be my first option I would, uh, I think rifle hunting or crossbow hunting if that's the thing. UM is easier to perfect as far as the effectiveness of the UM be able to kill an animal like that, that process is simply easier to to become competent at, I guess than shooting a vertical ball, shooting compound ball or traditional ball. UM. So for someone getting started, that's probably great way to start, because there's a whole heck of a lot of things you've got to figure out when you're figuring out how to deer hunt. Um, it's nice to at least know that your methodology for take is going to be as relatively of assure things you can possibly get it. Um. So that being said, I am right, it is. It's clear then by way of me saying that using a vertical compound bow is more difficult, it is less is more difficult to become competent, it's more difficult to be consistent. There's more room for error. Um, there's more room for for things go bad, for imperfections. And this is where this weird like dichotomy comes into play, because on one hand, I would tell you that as a deer hunter, my number one goal is to make as quick and clean and ethical of a kill as I possibly can. If I'm going to take the life of an animal, I'm gonna do so, um the best way I possibly can to limit any kind of suffering to make sure I recover that animal. I mean that that's I would say, that's first and foremost. At the same time, though it it might seem very hypocritical then to tell you that I actively choose to use a compound bow for my hunting. How do I how do I justify that? Yeah? And I don't know if I have a perfect answer to that, but I can tell you that there is an experience, um and and maybe this is inherently selfish. Maybe this is something that we as as as bow hunter. Maybe maybe I'm a flawed, selfish human because I love to bow hunt or I'd like to engage in hunting in that way. But but but the experience I have as a bow hunter is a very different experience than I have as a gun hunter. And that experience, that way of engaging with an animal, with the habitat, the skill and time and effort and practice, the amount of work that has to go into that to be successful, um makes it um incredibly compelling, addicting interesting, forces me to to become a more well rounded outdoorsman. But yes, it does opening things up to the possibility of things not going right. Um. And So so with that said, what I find is that I simply have a greater obligation if I If you're choosing to be a bow hunter and you're choosing to engage with animals and wildlife and stuff in this way, you just have a greater obligation to work your tail off, to do as much as you possibly can to become more perfect. You're never gonna become perfect. A bow hunter can't be perfect. There will always be perfect, yes, um So, mistakes will happen sometimes. I mean it is tough. There are a lot of things that can go wrong. Animals can move. Um So, no one, even the very best archers out there, even like John Dudley or someone, stuff is gonna go wrong sometimes for these guys or girls. So I think the obligation just becomes then for us as hunters bow owners to do everything we possibly can to every day become more perfect, get closer and closer and closer to minimizing any kind of air and hopefully, um hopefully because of how because of how uniquely engaging bow hunting is. This is a hypothesis, I guess, but because of how deep that interaction is that I think I think is unique with bow hunting. I think I think you could dive deeper. Not saying that you can't achieve some of these things as a rife hunter, but if I were to generalize, I'm over generalizing here, but I think via bow hunting, it forces you to get deeper into this thing, deeper into how you interact with these animals, understand these animals, all those things. I hope and I think it fosters a different level or a deeper level of care and in a desire to give back and to to find ways to make sure that we just don't take from this resource, but we also we also give. UM And I think maybe, I hope, maybe that is how bow hunting um provides a net benefit. Let me just say that, I don't know if that makes sense. No, it does. Um. And here's what happens. And my this is my and my estimation, and I've done it in my life. Um. And I will start by saying, I feel like I've sometimes been peer pressured into bow hunting because that's it was like a trendy thing to do. You got it's like we got a dog fight in the office. Um. I've been peer pressured into bow hunting because that's the trendier thing to do, right, the cool kids seem to be doing it. Um And nobody, I actually, no one's thinking that because they're looking at me bo hunting. I don't know. I mean, yeah, people know what we gotta get into. What the guy said, I know, and also the text that I sent you. Those are two things with UM. But I think when it comes to this relatively serious subject, I always fall back on. Hunting is a very personal endeavor and in it in its nature and it's modern sense, right, because we could go to the store and get meat. Because there's other ways for us to to UM take on take on the act of conservation. Right, I could go help for the translocation help UM go help pick up trash on public lands, and be doing just as much for conservation air quotes as UM I would if I will go out and buy a license and shoot a deer. Right, So all the things that we use as reasoning, like what you were just doing there was a very like noble attempt to talk around. Hey, look, this ship is selfish. It is personal, UM. But it's selfish and personal because the end result is this thing that it enriches you to such an extent that it's appropriate. At the end of the day. It fosters caring for animals, and it fosters caring for the natural world. Like but at the end of the day, it's a very selfish and personal endeavor. UM. And I guess we do need to own that and just own that. If you start from that owning, then you can then the rest of it just becomes simple. Right. Um. We talked about that with Kesh and Releaves fly fishing, like just own that ship, just own that. It's a very part it's a very selfish endeavor. But like this opportunity could side railist right now, going we're not going there, Mark and I had one time, like a two hour it was like seven o'clock at night, We're trying to work, and then we're not gonna do that here, we promise you. Um. But I think that that bow hunting is is selfish a lot of times. And it's like this, I admit it, like it's a selfish thing. I I enjoy the experience more with a bow in my hand than with a rifle. You know. Um, it does that complicate the ethical endeavor? Fuck? Yes it does, boy, it does a lot. Um. But I also just realized that I'm not out there just for meat. I'm not out there just for conservation. It's not at its core an altruistic thing that I'm doing. It is very much for me, but it's for me for a good reason, you know, because it enriches my life and it gives me something and the by products of which meat conservation I dearly love, and I think I like there. I think those byproducts are the some of the most important things that I've given to your fucking world around me, or whatever however you say it, so, you know, addressing what you said, I just think my opinion would be, after all that is that that this is just like what you said, is it's a very sometimes a selfish endeavor. I think when a fella puts on an orange vest and picks up a bow and goes out, like I would have to like, here a really good reason for that choosing to bow hunt during gun season when he could be with a gun. Yes, and there's you know, obviously we know that in the in wildlife management, in biology, like there's a reason why you can bow hunt from September to January, but only rifle hunt from you know, November one, November eleventh or whatever, you know, just making those numbers up, obviously, But um, there's reasons for that, right, There's wildlife management reasons and wildlife managers and state game agencies are taken in wound loss numbers as they look at how many year can be killing from a certain state or a certain unit. So we know that too as we go into it. Um, a lot of people are tree hunt deer doing just fine, and so the system we have in place is working. Yeah, so it's it's selfish this thing. Maybe it's a working system and it's got a lot of good that goes into it. So um yeah. I mean the end, I think the imperfection of bow hunting are clear and present, but but not so damning that we should never do it. Yeah. I think it's as long as we own it and as long as the only thing that does bother me is the guy or girl who who has experienced the imperfections of bow hunting and doesn't try to do anything about it. Like I'm just gonna grab a boat for the season. Yeah, I wound a couple of deer every year, but I got my buck, uh, put it up at the end of the season. And then next year, September three, I grabbed the ball out that I feel that shows up a disregard for the his nature of what we're doing and for life. And I would caution I would I would just want anyone. Yeah, I would go back to du Shaun and his his Mechlovic. But like in that area of the world and much of Europe, bow hunting is thought to be unspeakable. Like I've hunted in Bulgaria, hunting in Germany. It's starting to change the Scandinavia two. I mean, bo hunting is catching on in some of these areas. But traditionally they believe we have a rifle. This is ethical. Um, it's more ethical and and more responsible to use a rifle some and some of these areas and countries in Europe, b hunting is illegal for that reason, because we have a more powerful and more lethal weapon to choose not to use it as foolish. Um. There's arguments against that, like for us longer hunting seasons and things of that nature that that certainly we would argue for. But even that's very selfish. Um. But at the same time, you go over to Germany and they do driven months and they shoot rifles at running animals as a tradition, as part of their tradition. So all of this is oxymen roonic at some level, But there is if you think about the reverence and the culture and the European tradition for hunting there's more reverence, there's a little bit more thought, and they don't use bows. Um. But so that's just another another way to go about it. You know. So I think for us, we think hard about why we choose our tree. You know, I'm friends with a lot of folks that only pick up a bow and say that out say that out right, I only pick up a bow, I only hunt with a bow hashtag whatever, hashtag bow hunting only, um, and use that as a bow and use a bow to shoot geese, and use a bow to shoot turkeys, and use a bow to shoot all types of things. They could just as well a shot with a shotgun or a rifle. And you have a problem with that? Is that what you're saying? I mean, it'd be hard to explain. See I I don't have a problem with that for the same reasons that I just said in general, because I, as you mentioned, it's personal and it's a different wave. It's it's a very different wave of hunting, right, the interaction, the experience you have with a rifle hunting a deer versus being forced to get that deer within thirty yards. It's just it's a totally different thing. It's you could set it up ethically where you're like, I'm only going to take these shots. I'm only gonna do But who in the world has never done right? That's right? So I think do I have a problem with it? I don't think that's one of the things I would go after as a hunter. Like if some other hunters said, like I just huntled about it all right, well you better be pretty good, then they're pretty good. But there's something there's there's there's something I think now I understand your point of view and the other but I do think there's also something admirable about self limiting and increasing the level of challenge because it's not just the actual execution the shop, but it's everything else that happens around that everything. You must be a whole lot more just be in the right position, being at the right time, understanding they're so um. There's so much more that goes into getting within dirty yards of an animal than um. And that that's why bow hang is so compelling to me. Yeah, no, bohun is much more compelling than rifle. I mean, it's not even close. Um. And I do most of my hunting with a bow, and so I'm not certainly not challenging that as much as I am just saying, hey, look like we all know it, and let's just be more open about it, and let's just be let's let's look at win loss rates, and let's look at these things and try to um talk it through. Yeah, own it and get better. Yeah, for sure. And I think, um looking at these other examples in the world of where these things, how these things are being treated, is it provides some perspective. I haven't spent a ton of time in Europe hunting and around those cultures, but the time I have is has given me a lot of like, Okay, there's a different way to think about it. Here's a different way, you know, um And and Sweden in a lot of parts of Scandinavia, Um, you have to take a competency test with your weapon before you have to shoot a running steel plate, shoot a running moose to to be able to get a license to go hunt. It was much that way for Ducheon and keep going back to him, but much that way for him and the Chechoslovaki growing up. Um And So there's there's probably some things we can implement around bow hunting to just ensure that as a group. You know, we're holding ourselves to a standard because there should be a standard, right, I mean yeah, I mean I think so. The counterpoint to that would be, well, we are already struggling to recruit hirings. You want to put more barriers in the way of that. I'm with you. I'm not like a barrier do. I'm not like a like let the government figure that ship. I'm never that guy. I'm always like less of that is always is always good. Hopefully we can self regulate. Yeah, that's why. Yeah, self regulation, I would, I would agree with that. I think that ends up being the best way to do it. Yeah, and we and when we're on nobody's arguing against hunter safety classes. Nobody's like that sucks. And that's a great opportunity to incorporate more of this education. I think there's an opportunity to prove what we're doing. They're probably it's a long time since I've done that, so I don't know exactly what they're doing today, but I don't. I never shot a boat during I shot a shotgun. I remember during mine and a rifle shoot anything during ours, it was all classroom and well, when I grew and in my growing up, we didn't really hunt with archery tackle until I was like maybe eighteen sixteen, seventeen eighteen, and I think it was like thirteen or fourteen. Yeah, we it was two weeks out of the year and get a rifle out and you know, poke holes and animals. Thanks for me. It was poke holes and trees for a while for a while. But also, you know, you know, if if, and we'll look at this on the mediator dot com and hopefully in some articles to come by you and others, but look at is this really true? Is is is the wound loss rate on average for rifles you know, and and our tree? Where is that? Where is that level? Because there's a lot of over confidence with fire firearms, there's a lot of UM. I think we may find that we're completely off base. I've wondered about that because I do think shot selection with certain people with a firearm is much looser than much much looser. So that and and the number of hunters using that weapon significantly higher, So you've got a way higher number of hunters out there. And now again over generalizing, but a much higher number of hunters, a much higher percentage of those taking low UM quality shots probably. Um. Now, yeah, the weapon itself might be more effective, but only when when used to use the right way, And there might I would be very interesting to see to what I because I think I don't know what the answer is. But you know, the imperfecional about hunting being what they are, there's not that doesn't mean picking up a rifle is a perfect thing to do. I mean it goes back to an example you up earlier, like shooting a moving animal. That's something that people do with firearms quite a lot. Uh deer drives in Iowa. I think it's still illegal. It's a big thing of Michigan. Big things in Michigan. It's a big thing down south, you know. I Um, but I think there's there's it's it's a traditional used thing. It's something that a lot of people do. I'm not gonna sit here and tell anyone what to do, but I will just tell you that growing up for me, um, my grandfather, who was kind of the the patriarch of our family and our hunting camp and who everyone kind of he'd he'd set the laws. If you were to shoot it a moving animal, you were out. You're out. We had a an uncle of mine brought a friend up to her deer camp one year and they saw a buck chasing a dough across the field with inside a deer camp, and that guy ran outside the camp, grabbed his rifle off the side of the cabin, start pole pole, shooting that buck. He was gone. That wasn't acceptable because that in my grandfather's eyes, that is not you can't guarantee you're not gonna win an animal. Talk about self freak relation. That's um. So that was that was the world and the tradition I grew up, and so that's where my perspective comes from. Um. But I understand that there's different views. Yeah, there certainly is, and that's that's something we're here to explore. Man. Like, I think that's the beautiful thing about what we've got going with this company is that we're all willing to engage in these conversations and poke holes on our own assumptions. Like I got some assumptions about what bothers me, and I know that some of it's wrong, but what like they can't be all right right, um, But identifying these things, like, you know, you've been pretty forward and talking about writing a piece on on on this subject, and I think that's what it's the beauty of what we're gonna try to do is take these issues that we all have. We all know they're there. Um, I think I don't know if you would agree with this, but I think, um, maybe our father's generation and then some parts of our generation, UM would have rather pushed it on the rug for year of you know, persecution, then um, then talk it through. I think having those conversations is important. It's always something I've I've thought so too, like where we may not agree on everything, but I think it is a positive step to at least put it out there. Talk about it. Yeah, think about I think through these things. This is something I know you'll um you're right about soon. But talk about if you have a tag, right, Every state is different for how they doll out their tags and licenses and things of that nature. But let's just build a scenario where I've got one tag for a deer every year with the bow. Let's just use a bow as an example. Um, the big buck that you we're chasing comes by, something happens and you plunk one into his high quarters, plunking arrow in his high quarters. He runs off your relatively positive that he's not he's not deceased. You try and try and try, you try to make it happy, and um, even in this you know, even we'll just make up in this hypothetical that you hunt around the area where he was last seeing there is blood but not a lot, there's hair. You know, you know that you put a arrow into an animal and then he's likely not dead. Um, do you not your tag or not? Yeah? So I've been in this situation myself, and um, it's almost twice a two situations kind of similar to this, and I had two different perspectives on it. One was like six years ago. One was this year, and I thought differently about it this year than I did six years ago. And it's again, it's another one of these issues that it's, uh, there's a weird line somewhere in here. It's hard to know where to draw that line, I think. Um, but that first scenario, hit a deer and saw where the arrow hit and it was it was back and low, and my first gut was that, you know that that should be a dead deer. But we tracked and tracked and tracked. I looked for him for three days, never found him. Very little blood. Um. I was devastated. It was this buck I've been watching for two years, the biggest deer at that point I ever got a shot at it. Just it was like a in my mind and head, it was like it was really it was a really Um, I just really didn't want to have end that way. Um. So it's pretty devastated. Drove home that night. I'm not hunting anymore. Um, I got pulled over speeding on the way home. Um. It wasn't a bad place for a week, but then after a week, I was like, you know what, you know, I'm hoping that bucks still out there. I thought when we should have found him, he was dead. We should have found him. Um, the shot was low, might have been just like low brisket. Um. Just you know. I eventually convinced myself that I should keep hunting. And I got a picture, and I'm like, that's I got a picture of him. So he made it. I thought I thought he made it. I got a picture of a buck to look like him, So all right, I'm gonna keep hunting. And uh so this is two weeks after having that first shot and not being able to cover that buck. I'm hunting I see this buck come walking and and oh my god, that's the job breaker. It was real fast, how was happening? So I got in this picture of him alive. The night before I checked the camera scene it alive, and the next morning I made a move to go into that buck's core are again to try to get him set up like a hanging hunting type. The deal within like and I don't know what it was an hour of day later or something to hear that buck comes big, tall frame deer um and I got shot him. Oh my gosh, I just got this buck. It was amazing that all came together. Had been like the lowest of lows and then the highest highest. Now fast forward a few hours and I recovered the deer. Walk up with the deer. I look at him like, oh, that's not him. It's a different buck, And I was like, whoall he looked a lot like him. He was like a slightly smaller version of that deer. But then I realized I'd kill a different buck. And then as the season progressed, I kept checking trail cameras and stuff because my buddy was still hunting there, and no pictures of the original buck. No pictures of the original buck. No pictures of original buck, so maybe he didn't make it. Maybe was this buck all along that spring I go shed hunting right there in the area where this buck where I shot this buck, not far from that the original buck, and it was also close where I shot that other one. I find the original buck dead, and so that I'm thinking, man, you had killed that dear he holed up in this little bottom of a ditch and you just missed him. And me we grid searched, type I brought two different dogs in to try to find him. So either we just somehow, by some horrible struggle of fate missed him, or it had been like a several day thing he came back. So that was like, that was really shitty. Um, that was really shitty, And that was like, that was that first example of my life as a bow hunter where that happened and where it really made me like think about this whole top of the imperfection of ball hunting and the when that happens, what do you do? How do you process that? What does that mean if you're moving forward as a hunter, how do you how do you do everything you possibly can to make sure something like that doesn't happen again, etcetera, etcetera. UM, So that was that situation. That's how I dealt with that situation at that point. Now fast forward to this past season. I get a shot at a deer um in Montana on a hunt, and the shot seem pretty darn good from what I re meant from the shot, like I had video was consumed out, But I was like, yeah, that's a pretty good shot, Like that's a dead deer. There's no way that deer is not gonna die. But I couldn't find blood. I couldn't find blood, not that part of it, because I've got some red green color blindness. It doesn't pop to me and I'm by myself in the middle of nowhere. So it wasn't like maybe I missed some blood that I should have, but I was having a hard time finding blood. Eventually, that grid search wasn't find anything that night. The next morning came back in daylight because I couldn't see anything anymore because how dark was that night. Came back in the next morning, search and search and search, find a little blood. Grid search, grid search, grid search, and I was devastating, like, oh my god, you are You're not gonna find this buck in here. I mean, it's just so thick, and I was unbelievably upset about it, so frustrated. Um And and that's all right, you're done hunting, like that deer is dead and you have to find that deer or you're going home with a punch tag like you're you're You're gonna. I'm gonna. I've got five more days here until I have to go home, and I'm gonna walk every single hour of daylight and five days and if I don't find that deer, then I'm done. UM. So, I don't know what the right thing for someone to do. I think that if if I can understand, if you know that you hit a deer in a way that is clearly not fatal, like if you shoulder blood shot deer and it gets two inches of penetration, or if you just graze a deer there's a little bit of pair. But if there's some way you feel very very clear that that is a non lethal hit, and then you but you still did everything you possibly could do to make sure of that, um in that situation, or especially if you can see him again, I get a picture again in that situation, I totally. I can understand continued hunting that kind of situation. And again, this is just me. This is the way I think. I know, there's different perspectives on I would say if that if you shoot a buck and it's a clearly lethal hit, I personally would have a really hard time now not punching that tag like um. But that took a while for me to get to that point. Like that first year, I thought, well, because there's something that people the thing you hear is you gotta get back in the saddle, like the only way to get over this is to start hunting again. And I understand that from like a how to make you feel better standpoint? Like maybe, but is that the right thing? I don't know. I mean, I don't there's not necessarily I don't know if there's a clear cut answer from like from a how I don't know, but I think we're my heads at now. For me to feel okay with what I'm doing, I would have punched that montante um. Yeah, And it becomes that right like we we could have a wildlife manager come in here and tell us like, oh, where you know, as far as woon loss rates got an we take into account when we're doing the equation of population studies, we're taking into account the population of deer plus the population of hunters, and then we're putting wound loss rate in there somewhere in that equation. I'm sure. I'm sure that happens um and we'll endeavor to find someone that can give us some more information on that future articles and podcasts and things that we do. But but for sure that's happening. So given that it becomes a personal thing when managed from a larger macro management perspective, it's not the end of the world. It's like, that's so we're we're not saying like, wow, man, you know, as a as a hunter, who's responsible for these things, like don't do this? No, No, that's not it. It's more like, and I think as a kid, you don't really have the caring for like the animal. You just don't have the capacity to have the caring and empathy empathy for the animal as you do um when you've developed this really these relationships with these dear and you've tracked them and hunted them, you know. So I think I would also argue that white tail hunters have the most empathy for the animals. People always talk ship and I have in the past about naming dear but yeah, we we'll continue to. But one of the good things is that you develop empathy for that animal. It's based on your relationship with it. It's a very unique, weird kind of relationship. And then again the like one of the more complex relationships, and it's um, the hunter's paradox is what I would have very much so. And then there's a lot of folks I've written and been philosophized, if that's the word about about these things, but you know, they'd like to put a point on it. I think it's a personal thing, but I think um, as a hunter, it's something to consider, like, it's something to have in your like, don't don't discount that scenario. Don't say I always unless I get like, I only tag it if I have the actually animal. Leave yourself some room to make that. Just make that choice when it's necessary, you know, And don't don't write it off in any way. Keep it because it's it's useful. Yeah, I definitely agree, and for me, it's it comes a lot of people. You don't have to do this. A lot of people don't do this, but I think more and more, and and definitely myself. The more time I the deeper I getting hunting just from just the activity participating in it. The more I think about it, and the more I think about what I'm doing, the more I think about why am I doing it? Or how is this okay? Or how is what I'm doing? How do I justify this to my stuff? How do I Those things are just in my mind a whole lot more. And it's those kinds of questions that lead me to the debates that we just had had that own debate my own head and the decision I made this year versus what I made that one year. I think the more and more you think about these things, the more it will influence some of these decisions around all these tricky, hairy, complex times. And I've been we were talking last night, I've been I'm not like a staunch opponent of the grip and grand but I'm just like kind of over it. And there's a million reasons why not to do it, I think, um, but I get why people do. If you look at my Instagram account, you'll see plenty of grip and grins on there from years past. I haven't done one in a while, but it's I've done them recent enough that you could call me a hypocrite or a flip flopper. Um, and I'd have to defend that. But that's just it's keep evolving, keep thinking about the thing that we're doing. Um. And like I said, I mean, white del hunting is is it? Man? It is the core of what we do. It is the most prevalent type of hunting, and it's the most the relationship with the animal we have the most as a society and a culture, I think. I mean, we can talk about charismatic mega faun in our relationship there, but it's not as tense on a daily basis. I mean, I've lived in Texas, deer lived in my backyard. I'm here in Montana. There's deer in my backyard. Last night. Um, we went to the media Christmas party and they were deer walking around all over the place. So our relationship with these animals are is much more tangible than our relationship with others. I think is the point that you're getting to with this that we can clearly point to where to hunt being the most important cut podcast. This is it. This is the white tail podcast. You better listen to that or your a loser. And to close this all out of tell I gotta tell a quick story. Here's um. We were in a meeting the other day and my wife texted me, but I've been it's very intense, right, a couple of days worth of UM meetings. My wife's texted me something around the like missing you. Of course I missed her too, and so I texted her back, what do you have it there? Did you pull it up? Ben texted his quote unquote wife, busy meeting day, but can't wait for a weekend with my lovees. Are you okay? And I responded, I can't wait. You text your buddy, sweet nothings that are meant for your lady. Yeah, we we got a good laugh out of that one. We're going to have a good weekend, you and I this weekend. I can't wait for it because what we are love. I'm glad we established that early on. Yeah, it's good. That's where we're gonna end it right there, Thanks buddy, Thank you, Ben. That's it. That's all. Another episode of the Hunting Collective in the books. Thanks Mark Kenyan A great conversation as a white tail hunter. White Tail lover. It's good to hear his perspective on some of those different, more difficult topics. But it's just good to hang out with that guy. He's a good, good, good man. UM. It's very caring and the way he approaches hunting, and really enjoy enjoy talking to him as always. What else is on the docket to talk about? Hey, UM, there's a little thing online. It's a big controversy, big, big controversy online this last week about UM stickers. I got what like three negative comments. Basically the whole internet was talking about the sticker gate. I called sticker gate. Yeah, that's a good name for it. UM posted about, Hey, go go to the uh the meat eater dot com store you know there and buy some stickers. Well, apparently the sticker was four bucks, but the shipping was six pot, making it a ten dollar sticker. That better be a damn good sticker for that much money. So that was something I didn't know. I didn't know about the shipping. So now that I know that, UM, we'll try to get that changed. But in the meantime, UH, there's more stuff there, so you could order, for example, a pro nuance anti bullshit T shirt. You can also order a kick ass hoodie with the Hunting Collective podcast logo on there, and then you can also um order a sticker right those three things are there right now. So if you go to store dot the meat Eator dot com or just go to the metator dot com click on shop, you'll find those items there. You can buy them now and buy them in any quantity that you want. But I think we'll get over sticker Gate all three folks that can claimed. Hopefully you will also get there and buy a shirt or a hoodie or something cool like that. Um It's it's fun to have put that stuff out there, so I hope that you like it. And while you're there, if you have a little more time, click on the newsletter button up there. It's a subscribe Click on there. You put your email in and then every Wednesday, the Mediator Crew, which I'm a part of, send you an email with all this awesome content in it. It's got Pat Durkin, it's got Brodie Henderson, Steve Ronella me, it's got Mark Kenyon, it's got a pril fokey, it's got all kinds of stuff they're in So you're gonna want to go and do that. It's been to be very important, uh for everyone. So we thank you, thank you for listening, thank you for commenting, and really appreciate um all the support we've had recently. UM, all the downloads and the listens that that we've been getting been that that's been growing precipitously and I'm thrilled about that and never thought um we'd be in a position where are today, but I'm happy about it. So thank you again for listening and we'll see you next time on the Hunting Collective. Bye m

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