00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome Episode number twenty five The Hunting Collective. I'm Ben O'Brien and today continuing our tour of Texas as my family leaves to head north to Montana, and this tour stop is close to my home in Tripping Springs, Texas. And Russell Cunningham is is our man today, and he's gonna tell us about archaeology, about amateur archaeology, but about a passion for the history of his state of Texas, his home place of Dripping Springs, and his lineage, which is hunting. Here's a man who has found thousands, maybe one of the largest amateur collections of arrowheads in the United States. He has collected artifacts from around the West. He has collected paintings, and he has collecting art that all point back to one place. That point back. They point back to his appreciation history and of the cultures that led us to where we are now, most specifically the cultures that lived the place he's lived his entire life. Uh, He's as much a part of this land as anyone else. His family has cultivated this land over many generations. He has lived there for most of his entire life, and now he's raising his kids there and it just so happens to be you can go pretty close to their backyard and fine air heads that are three thousand years old and speak to us about a culture of people that live in Texas. So enjoy my friend Russell his amateur archaeology career and the collection that he has a mass that is impressive. Episode number come in at all, right, Russell, this is your first podcast ever, first one virgin version. Well we'll get you through it. We've got a lot of interesting stuff to cover, of course. Um, but first, I always like to have people describe where we are because we're having a video here, So give us a quick description of the room or sitting in. So be as detail as you please, because there's a lot of stuff in here. Well, we're in uh, my dream home on the ranch I grew up on. Um. The room is uh was planning to be the Indian Room, and so growing up, all the artifacts that I had been finding, I had a dream of putting them in a room which would be someone's similar to a study. But I've done all the study and I need to do so it's uh, all the walls have either have you know either great big mule deer or pre reservation, bow and arrow quivers, UM, arrows with trade points, lots of arrowheads that we found on the ranch. UM, lots of stones, grinding stones, UM, a couple of old bison heads that that predate the bison, bison, and uh, mainly just artifacts that my family and I have collected over the years. Yeah. Would you label yourself an artifact collector? How would you label yourself as a in general in that space? Yeah, I guess of amateur archaeologists of sorts, but yeah, a collector definitely. I just can't get enough of the prehistoric hunter? Is that what drove you to collecting? I mean, would you call it a collection or more just an exploration of one the place you live, this ranch, which is beautiful, but to just kind of that connection, like you say to our ancestors. Yeah, both, I mean it's I love to collect, um. I like to to show people what we find, what we're looking for out here, what we're seeing. There's so few people that actually get to experience what we get to experience. And my kids, Um, my kids are six and nine, two girls, and they found more airheads than most men will ever find. And uh, we're just in it so deep, it's just part of it's just a passion that I have and it's and it's the same passion that I have for hunting. It's it's hard to describe and less you know you're a you're a true hunter yourself. Well, I think when you see what's in front of us on this table or hopefully all let folks get a good look at the way that you dig, what you dig for, but then at the same time, how you display it in the reverence with which I mean in this room you're just playing things you've found. And we were talking before this. I grew up my dad and I uh relicanted my entire childhood and he had the same kind of way of displaying his fines. It was mostly Civil War era artifacts things, but the same reverence that you could see. And sitting in this room, you can tell by the way you've displayed things you found, the reverence you have for it, how important it is to you that it's appreciated. Um, it's evident in these displays. Well, thank you. It's a lot of time has gone into two finding the points and then like you said, just the way they're displayed. It's it's uh I almost want people to think when they come in here, to be able to put themselves back five, six, eight thousand years ago and did look at each point and wonder where that point has been, who made it, the weather that was going on at the time, in the struggles that those people's that were we're having at the time that uh or or not struggling. I mean, the people probably had a lot better than we did. And anyway, yeah, each piece, I mean, as you take them, we'll go through kind of how you came to to to be an amateur archaeologist and how you came to be on this piece of land. But we we went for a little ride to look at one of your uh sites where you're you're currently finding heads, arrowheads, and it's clear to me that all those things are relevant to you when you find a piece. The first thing you said to me when I picked up my first arrowhead over there was the last time somebody had their hands on that was probably three thousand years ago. And that's um something I hope it's not lost on me. And I even looking around here, I'm geeking out and want to ask question about every little piece of stone that you got here, and so I hope everybody listening to this can can realize the amount of history that is built into hunting, the amount of history that is built into what we're doing. Uh, it's built in our genetic code, for lack of a better way to describe it. And so yeah, this being even for your little girls to grow up in a place where they're so connected to three thousand years prior is really unbelievable to me. So that's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you, just to to find out why or how you got here. Maybe you don't even know why, but how you got to this point in your life. Well, I think if if anyone had the opportunity, um, I think we all of the hunters would would be in this room seeking out over and they probably have a room just like it if they had that that opportunity. And and uh, you and I are talking about um earlier that my philosophy in life is to get off the couch. You cannot you can't do all this if you're sitting on the couch. And but the d n A that we share with these ancient hunters is what drives us, and everyone shares it, whether you know it comes out more so, and others is evident, it certainly does. But I can't imagine just you know, seeing where these people lived and seeing and picking up an era head, not just being completely intrigued with what went on five thousand years ago in this area and what was each specific style of point made for. You know, some of these points are seven inches long and some of them are seven millimeters long. Yeah, it's it's unbelievable, the variances and in all the heads that you have here, in all the artifacts, but just the variances in the people, in the way they lived, by by generation hunter, you know, by type of people a boy, where they lived. It's it's unbelievable. I mean, there's you've got arrowheads here that are the size of quarters, and then you've got points here that are as long as you know, for lack of a better term, like the snickers bar, as long as one of those six inches long. And so every one of these pieces I think is an answer to a question, or at least some evidence that will help you answer a question that we all should have was just how does this? How did this happen? You know, it's I think maybe fool hardy or it's some fool's errand to try to compare our modern hunting to this in a direct way. It's so far removed. Uh, these ancient hunters are so far removed from us, but they have so much to teach us that, um, yeah, we could. We could talk about this all day. But take me through how you came to be on this land, your family's history, and then we'll start talking about specific some of these really interesting pieces. So when we when I was about ten, we moved out because our our little farm out and uh brown Drock, Texas, which is north of Austin, uh town, kind of got a little close. So we decided to move further out. And we found this area out southwest of Austin in the hill country, dripping springs area. Um, we're able to it was so far out back then it just big, you know, a bunch of cedar. And so we're able to get this ranch and and if over the last thirty years have been improving it, removing cedar, developing the springs, and and as we've been doing so. Um, it wasn't long after I was about eleven years old when we found our first true mound, is what we call it it's an Indian camp and started finding points and have been just completely uh taken by the thought and the the chase and the what's next, what's behind the next rock? And um, what am I going to find next? And what were these in the is doing and the whole deal and so um. The ranch is about seven hundred acres and we have almost a mile of Barton Creek running through. We have both sides of Barton and then um every several hundred yards there's a feeder creek that's spring fed. So it's just the perfect environment to camp nowaday too and back then for these Indians to survive. The great water um, and that's the key, is the water source. And you know we're we're on the near the Edwards Plateau and in the the bison were roaming through here, probably not as much as a little south of us because it's a little more hilly, but they had lots of deer, They had plenty to eat. And uh, you know, every site that we find is just a beautiful camp site that we'd want to hang out in. No great cover and just beautiful, big old trees and um. So the lys Um had this place for you know, thirty years or so. And and that's what we do. We hunt, we fish, and we look for airheads. And we found a lot of thousands. I would saying how many totally you think you found your lifetime. I upwards of five thousand. I would imagine on this property UM between here and and uh within five miles of here. I get people that will call mean and have sites that you know, we'll look at. But have you ever took stock at your entire collection of the family's collection is to how big it is or or where it ranks, and the you know, list of biggest airhead collections are most established. There's there's a huge subcultures. Now that we've gotten into it, I've gotten to know some of some of the people that have the biggest collections of perishables, cave finds, um in the nation, and we've been we've we've my family and I've been able to see their private collections, which the Smithsonian wants lots of the pieces that they have, and frankly most of the private collections have the best stuff. UM. But you know, as far as an amateur, you know, I've I've probably certainly you have one of the biggest collections in this area. But just because there's it's hard work finding these and uh, there's not many people that will get off the couch get it done off the couch. Yeah, I mean you started hunting and finding air heads around the same time when you were a kid. I mean, it was all just what you did. Yeah, that's what we're We my brothers two years old or nine, and we would be um, you know, like most kids. Then nowadays it's a different story. But we would be gone, son up would either be riding horses or we'd be digging airheads, and Dad would pretty much know where to find us. He'd either we'd be down there digging or if the horses were gone, he'd see us at dark, you know. But yeah, so that's lots of time spent. And it's great, great family stuff. I mean, my brother and I have great memories digging and and and now my my little girls and my wife love it. The girls are making mudpies and and my wife is is coming through the dirt with me. And yeah, it's a it's a neat deal. Yeah. No, it's amazing, um to see the work you put into it. I mean, it's easy to come into a room like this and and kind of feel the artistry of it, your own artistry and creating the presentation of the stuff, but the artistry of the folks that made this so many generations to go. It's easy to see that. But then we go out to your dig site, to your mound, and you see all the work you put in in the Texas summertime. That's amazing. Yeah that's hot, man, it is hot. And we come back just drenched. But each each point is just you ever sat down and had a whiskey in this room thought why? Why? Really? Why? You know, you know why? It's fun, it's you know, we can talk about why, but why why? The passion is it gets pretty deep in here, uh, us coming and sitting here with with those that are as passionate as you are about honey. And that's when it gets neat is when uh, you know, we we start thinking about, um, yeah, why why we're why are we here? Um? You know, in a sense, we're here to serve the Lord, that's one reason. But how but why did he? Why do we have cars? And these guys we're banging out flint, I mean, um, they were hard workers and and um, I can't imagine living like they did, but I think that they probably had it easier and we do. But why why were they here? And why so many points? Why did they lay this perfect point down that has not a scratch on it? Yeah? Yeah, I mean each one of these. We're both holding point arrowheads now, and I wanted to because you could just look at this and each little piece of it, each detail tells something about someone now somewhere, and if you let it speak to you, I'm sure it does. And so I imagine I knew the answer to that question. But for for folks listening to think about um while you're out there on a Sunday afternoon sweating your balls off, thinking what does it mean at the end of the day? Yeah? What? What? What gives me the drive to go the I mean it's not gold these things. Someone may come in and offer me of, you know, hefty chunk of change, but it wouldn't It would be essentially getting paid fifty cents an hour for all the hours I put into it. I mean, it's they're priceless to me, but they're not really worth all that much about your Your dad does he still? Does? He get after it? Pretty good? Dad? Loves, loves to see it and talk about it and sit in here and and uh and have a t or something, um, and and look at it. And he feels that the gravity of it, and he can feel the the culture, but he's he rather not go dig and the heat. He never has really cared much too. I don't think he's ever found a narrow head. But it's cool because he gets to live that through us. So essentially he didn't have to. He can he can have a cold beer and not sweat and still get the same enjoyment out of it. That's smart. Yeah, that's smart. Um, So we kind of you know, we know what you're doing here, and then can we'll just talk more about why. Um? But how I mean, when you're leving you find an arrowhead, Yeah, it's cool, right, pick it up. That's a cool arrowhead. Take me through how you have gotten to the point where you're out there with a giant sifter and a cat and you're digging. You know, how big was the sight we were just at that was probably a hundred yards by sixty yards? And how deeply you dig when you dig, well, we'll get through about five ft average, I'd say, so that's a lot. Take me through how you get you know, obviously your passion will lead you to that this extreme way that you do it. But so when I was a kid finding them and digging the excitement of really I would I was like, you know, I really would like to know who made this and and all, But really it's like how many can I get? I'm gonna come home with ten and see what kind of different shapes. I knew nothing about the cultures. The shape of the base kind of tells you what culture it is, how old the point is, like the Clovis has the flute and it we don't have any Clovis on the ranch, but I'm sure they're here, but we hadn't found him. But then, you know, as I got older, started reading more about it, going to the shows, and learning about how they cooked and uh what they ate, how they actually hafted or put the point onto the to the stick and the the shaft and the ladle versus the bow and arrow, and really getting into big and deep and reading and and getting with the big wigs in the in the the culture of this artifact, hunting and learning so much more about it, and and the more I know now the more I want to get out in the field and see the evidence of this. And so we're talking about how they cooked. And in this country, they they would cook a lot like like the Mexicans cook caprito. They do a big hole, build a big fire, coals on it, put uh, put in big stones, and then cover it with grass acorns than grass, and then cover that with dirt and let it cook for up to seventy two hours. And they'd come out and the rocks would be broken up and what's called midden and over the over the different cook cycles that would just build a big mound of broken rock. And so the sites are a lot easier to find in this country than there are North Texas or than they are and in Arizona or Colorado or east and so it's not it's hard to find the sites. And so um once for once we find the site, then we can kind of we know where most of the points are and and uh we can kind of go to them and see what they've been eating. Lots of bison bones, lots of tune, fox, kyote, jaws, rabbits, all kinds of neat stuff. It's unbelievable, is there, you know? As you go through your collections, and as you started to gather more things and wanted to travel, was there I want to just continue to stay here and find out more about these people or go out into other parts of the country and you know, connect the dots to the ancient hunters that were here, or the ancient hunters that might have been into Mexico or Arizona or wherever. I'm always looking to expand, uh my knowledge based on the different cultures we you know, we we can call them tribes in the in the historic sense, uh, and then the cultures go back beyond the prehistoric. UM. But every time I go hunting, I take one of these airheads with me, UH and I go. I give a lot of places hunting, and I talked to the guides and all of them were It seems there's some sort of connection that they're artifact hunters and the culture out in New Mexico, UM, the pottery makers, the members culture is is very intriguing to me. And for these guys to be making these beautiful pots of thousand years ago, it's just amazing. And UM, the little ear rings that we've the shell ear rings that that I've found, UM, and some of their ruins while we're ill counting in the big huge pottery shards that just tell a story of its own. These guys were trading shells and all from from the the West coast, um and some caves that I've been in and in West Texas finding some amazing stuff braided rope and yeah, sandals, sandals, thousand year old sandals that we're we're finding in pack rat nsts and um. These they're all tied. I mean, these these cultures, that's the Castile culture. They're out of the caves in West Texas there about eleven years old. These guys are communicating and trading and with the Indians in our country, I would certainly imagine, and we do see proof of that. But they're trading um shell conch shells from the Texas coast all the way up here. But the shells that we see traded from California coast all the way here to central Texas. It's just amazing how that makes it the network. So they're all tied. Yeah, I tell you so much. I mean, I'm sure it all comes back to this piece of ground for you though, just because you spent so much time digging in here um. And then in the sight that we went to today, it was interesting me how you identified where the airheads might be or where though artifacts might be. So take people through how you walk on a barren piece of ground and the creek and on your ranch in Texas, and how you come to know that there's relics or artifacts there, and then once you've determined that in your mind, how you find them and then continue to find them and um, how you sift through to find the ones you want, and what that process looks like. So that I get this question a lot is well, I don't even know, can you. I've got this place on my land and I just want to know if there's an air head out there. And really what it comes down to is to find a spring, a healthy spring. That the best time to find a really healthy spring is in the during a drought, and if that's still running, then you can almost picture of the Indians being there. And so we'll find a spring first in from the spring, we'll just we'll just make a big walk, you know, We'll just walk around and we'll look for those pieces of broken midden rock and that's the evidence of them having cook sites there and broken flint, and if you can find a little piece of that, then we'll dig some test holes. And if the test holes bring up more mid and rock and more pieces of flint, then at that point we know that we're on a site. And then we'll clear it and get all the seater off, because the seater in this country is everywhere. And then once we uh, once we know that that's where we're gonna dig, then we have come a long way. I used to just hand dig everything, and now we have a table that has a motor on it and it's offset drive shaft that um we engineered to help Jimmy Love join my my digging buddy, UM, and we'll take we'll go around the midden where the where where they would probably be been living that the midden is more where they're cooking. There's gonna be a lot of points in there, but the good stuff that's not broken is gonna be out where they're actually living and and working. Generally, it will be on the on the southeast side because the prevailing winds or southwest, so they're gonna be out of the smoke. And we'll start there and we'll just trench. We'll dig a big trench and then we'll find the habitation layer and and uh, when we're looking at it earlier, the snails would come in and get the organic matter after the Indians had left. And so there's generally a line of occupation, is what we call it. And once once we find that, we'll go below that and another six inches so we're not missing anything, and we'll dig that whole area one bucket at a time with a bobcat. Put it on the table. It sifts well, sift all the midden rock and in all out, and then uh, we'll find the points from there, and then we'll put them in a bucket and at the end of the day we'll put them out on the back of the tailgate of the chuck and have a cold beer and and talk about every time we'll talk about what what were these Indians doing? And Wow, we're actually getting to do this, the first people that have touched this in five thousand years, and and we'll have that discussion over a cold beer. And yeah, we'll sort the points out. The broken ones will go in a box, and the the whole pretty ones will be displayed for everyone to see. Do you imagine that one thing that struck me. Yeah, you've got a nice ranch here. Did you imagine that your place is much different than every other ranch in this part of the country with open ground that you've just over the time knowing what to look for and become passionate, and that's why you found the amount of heads you have or is you know, you said there's there's water that runs through your place, for sure, but uh, you imagine that there's so many of these sites, so much of this information that we could clean and and probably should clean in some way that just goes, uh goes unfound because there's no one to see it. Absolutely well. Even there's so many of these sites about every six hundred yards in this country down Onion Creek or Barton Creek, and these are some of the bigger creeks in the region. The Barton Creek runs all the way down into Austin. But there's so many of these sites, uh that if you have a property with a spring on it, you have a you do have a campsite on it. But a lot of these camps that I'm digging, I've known about for thirty years and I'm just coming up. I'm talking to the land owners and I'm showing them my Indian room. I bring him out to the ranch and they they see what's there, and then they still won't dog it. And then and I'll ask maybe both I'll dig it with them, and then I'll give them fifty the points. So lots of people have the middens or the camps on their place, but it's a matter of want to and drive. They get out there and dig for an hour and they're and it's hot, and it's a ton of work, and there over it and I can't get over it. Um, it's like Steve Ronnella or Ben O'Brien climbing him. It's like the big one. The big animal is not killed right off the road. The big ones killed back in there where no one else wants to go. And then when when when you get further back there, and it's the last day, and if if you just have enough energy to get over one more mountain range or one more mountain, that's where the big one is. And it's the last day, in the last hour and the last light. And I guarantee you that Ben O'Brien and Steve ronell are up there with their glasses until last light and that's what it's like for me. Yeah, yeah, I know. That's what strikes me about all people that you know, you don't sit in a room like this without having so ridiculous passion for the thing, right, Um, you just don't, and you don't come to the point you've come to as an amateur archaeologist. I love that term. Um. Yeah, I'm I think I'm like an amateur whiskey taster. I got a certificate one time. Um. But you don't get to that point without having that drive, without wanting to know that And you were talking about correct me if I'm wrong. There's in in some circles there's thought that digging this could be controversial because you may disturb some kind of evidence that could be found, or talk about that a little bit. You know. I know that's probably sense of subject for it, but I think it's important for people to hear you know, your passion is coming through this stuff and the respect for these artifacts and the fact that they're seen by many people that come in your home. Um. I think that's important for people to know because I know there are probably something that would ask why don't you just leave him in the ground? Right, And it's so it's a non renewable resource essentially, and the archae bologists are amazing. That's what I wanted to do as a kid, you know, when I was ten or eleven, but um, you know, my path went a different direction. But it is extremely important to to know what went on and and how it went on. But they, the archaeologist in this region have studied it so extensively that these camps are very common and they they don't want, you know, they don't have any more used to come find out what they already know. Lots of their stuff gets displayed appropriately, which is awesome and um, but there's tons of it that they're still studying in that the general public will never see ever and a lot of these folks won't even make it to a museum to see it. So the amount of people that have been in this room or been to the ranch and and if looked and talked about this stuff would never have done it without this stuff coming up out of the ground and by me getting it out. And um, it's I feel it's so important for us to dig this stuff up and to share with the world, um, like we're doing now. I've never heard a podcast on air heads either. I'm sure they're out there, maybe not. Maybe we're breaking ground. I'm glad if that's the case. But you know, but you know they're getting displayed, we're talking about it. We're sharing this part of our history, um with with the world. Whereas uh, you know, they may again the archaeologists do it tremendously great job about you know, I'm putting the word out and showing what's going on in museums and all. But but it's hard to get to Yeah, you couldn't get to this. I mean the amount of things that you have here and some of the great funds you have, UM. And that brings that's a good segue. It brings us to you know, what you have and what you've learned, because there's a lot that you've learned. Um. We got a dog visitor here bringing us a ball through. UM, what you have and what you've learned, because you've learned a lot about these ancient cultures you love, learned a lot about these periods and time that are important for us all to know about. So the biggest part of me wanting to sit out with you was to to harvest and get out of you all the things that you've learned about not only how to find these things and why you might do it, but the people. You know, you're sitting and having that beer. That's a good visual for everybody looking at these heads and in in your own mind, with your own knowledge, trying to understand what this connects to, because we all have that connection. So take me through the types of people that lived here, um how far back you know, let's probably start with the the oldest civilizations that lived here that you're a are of, and then take me back through kind of how how that all steps up and what you've learned that could be. So there's there's evidence of certainly evidence in this area of the Clovis culture, which was thought to be the oldest culture in North America. Um, so whether they came across the land bridge or they came from from Europe bouncing down through across the ice cap too to the east coast. There is a huge area on the east coast with tons of of Clovis camps, and so some archaeologists I think that they came across in in boats to the east coast, and then that's why there's so many camps over there. And then from there they followed the waterways to west and the other the other ones say that they came across the baring Land Bridge, came down and followed the rivers and then they ended up on the east coast and they and go anywhere else, and that's why there's so many camps there. But from there um the Clovis culture died out. Okay, that the Paleo Indians died out, the Fulsome and all that group, and then they repopulated. And there's evidence in in this area that after the repopulation in the transitional Paleo and all about eight thousand years, they lived here all the way up until the Comanches. So the culture that we're finding the most of the prehistoric about six thousand years until um, all the way up through the Comanche points true eraheads. So they were using what we call dart points. They were hafted to a long shaft and uh hurled with an at ladle and described that lattle for those are not aware, So it's like the chuck it deal that you throw to your dog. So that these Indians made that, they didn't make the billions of dollars that this chuck it guy is right? Why did not think of that, But so it's a long shaft. There at the end, the flint point is on a stick about six inches long that goes into the shaft. And then the stick that laddel is about a foot long, and it has a little hook on the end and and it's and that you use it to hurl to get more kinetic energy. When the shaft hits the animal, this the point stays in the animal. The big shaft comes out, and they run grab their shaft, pick up another tip and put it in and and just follow and track and um. They can be accurate that the guys that do it now for fun, can they can hit targets at a hundred yards with these things. So they figured these hunters that did it every day growing up their whole lives, they needed to be good at it could be accurate to hunters. You know, how they would fashion the shaft or what. Yeah, they would there, you know, they'd use a lot of the cane along the rivers and creeks, and to straighten them, they'd heat him in the fire and then they just bend it and then as it cooled they would stay in that shape. And then from there they would use asphaltum two connect the the flint tip and asphalt them is it's either they could use tree sap or um. You can what I think of as faltim is when you're on the beach and there's those big tar balls that come up, and that's natural. I'm sure there's more of it since we've been digging or drilling, but they'll use that heat it up and then fasten that and there's that cools that becomes hard and so that there's no getting it off at that point. So if they broke the tip of their ahead, they could re sharpen the the arrowhead while it's still on that stick, and we we see evidence of that and all of these points resharpening UM. But oftentimes if that stick broke, then that that points useless at that point because they couldn't. They couldn't they can repair it. So lots of these points is laying around. I'm sure a lot of that had to do with it. Why would they just leave these perfect points in camp? Yeah, that's what we were talking about it earlier. It's probably another rabbit hole. Why why are so many of them left behind? Um in the way that they are And I'm sure there's lots of reasons. Yeah, and they're perfect. Yeah. Weight. I think we talked about one of them. The Fulsome people's were some of the most nomadic Paleo folks and and because of that there their points were super thin. And and they think it's just because of weight. But back to where we were going with that is so it started of the Paleo Indians. Right here, there's Paleo sites all through North America. Paleo, the Clovis, the Fulsome, angast Era, they were those all intermingled civilizations or did they predate each other? They were, they came. I don't think that they were overlapped very much. They were they you know, there would be a culture here and and then there'd be some overlap and there would be someone with a better technique, and they transitioned into that technique of of napping, of flint napping um. Which gets us to the from the at laddle to the bow and arrow. Yeah, when did that describe that transition as you know it in this country at least, so they're thinking roughly thirtred years ago. It is all with the Yes, So the majority of the history of of our world is at Laddle is guys throwing uh big long um shafts with an out ladle. Yeah, if you google at laddle, you can get many, many videos of modern guys. Like you said, it's pretty impressive to watch. I mean, they're they're killing mammoths with these things, which is just amazing to see. Um. But then once the bow and arrow took over, there was an overlap I'm sure, um of when to use an out lad and when to use a bone arrow. But um, and some of the arrows I have in the Indian room here are really short. They have trade points on them. This is the horse culture. So then we we start we transition from the at laddle to the bow and arrow about thirteen dred years ago, and then we get into the horse culture, which didn't The horse culture is very young. It's only a couple hundred not even that long. When the when the Spanish came in, there were horses and mustangs here well before the Indians figured out how to use them. So some of the tribes didn't have horses more longer than eighty years before we before we came in and you know, wrecked their their world. But and I'm very sympathetic to that, uh, you know that it just is what it is. Progress is progress and and uh the Indians did it to themselves, and uh, we don't want to rabbit hold down that. But from the bow and arrows pre horse culture, which was a big long thing, you know, to the horse culture, these arrows aren't but about two and a half feet long. Yeah, and we're looking at it a set of eight or so arrows from that that time frame, and described you know how that sets up. Because this, of all things you have hanging here, I believe it. It was the most interesting to me how not only the feathers they used, how they attached to fix the feathers to the shaft, how they fixed the shaft to the point, what the point looks like, and why it looks like it does. So the French we're making trade points. The arrows that we're looking at now have trade metal trade points. And there the style. Um, I have a couple of arros there from the Sioux culture that are the style of a little big horn. Doesn't mean that these were used a little big horn, but they were certainly obtained from the Indians that fought in and around a little big horn right at the same time. But that's you know, eighteen seventies back in the sun. The French trappers, they the French would make these trade points before they'd even come over here, and they'd send them with their trappers and their their fur companies and they'd trade these point the Indians, which were you know, that a lot lighter. They were more accurate there as deadly, and they wouldn't have to put the time in to make these. Every time you throw one of these a break if if it hit a rocket break, and that's a tremendous amount of time that they put into that. Well, these points they might bend or they just banging out and straighten it out and go on. So um, the points here we see are about three inches long and very sharp, uh and wicked looking. I mean you walk in the room and it you can see these on a on the Indians back. Oh yeah, the tip I mean the very tip of a knife almost. Yeah, you know, that's probably about what four inches long, would you say? And so the shaft, the shafts of these arrows all have different designs in them, and and they think that that they belonged to the guy who made the shaft ay or is it to let the blood out when it when it hits sticks in then and while it's hard to say, but they have grooves in the shaft. Every one of these authentic arrows do. UM. If you guys are at the museums and you see these authentic arrows, you look for that. But then the feather part is about eight inches. Um. Different cultures use three feathers. Um. Some cultures just used to um. Most of them have three feathers. But the Navajo. I've got three arrows up there from the Navajo culture and they're used buzzard m feathers. They use buzzard feather there. So UM, they're pretty easy to distinguish which tribe by the style. The two would you use turkey and eagle, we don't have it. It's illegal to have it, any type of eagle feathers. So there's no eagle feathers. Um. All the museums and and have the eagle stuff. You can't even trade them. Yeah. Now it's it's that's one of the more interesting When you look at these arrows, you think of our modern days in the length and you look at these errors. You must think on horseback. You know, once these horse cultures became prevalent. They had what do you say, sixty pound draw weights up to they're shooting a foot and a half long arrow tip to tip um as. I'm just guessing at that obviously, but you know, talk about that the you know much about the physics of that, of how they designed these bows and arrows and what they became at this in these early stages. Well that they evolved um from the utility of of being on the horse shooting under the neck. These guys were warriors. The the arraheads that were finding on the ranch they were they weren't and there's evidence, I mean, when the archaeologists find the skeleton, skeletal remains, there's no evidence of warfare. They're just weren't enough of them. They needed each other. The Indians that were talking about the horse culture were major warriors. There were so many of them at this point in history. And to shoot under a horse's neck, to hide and to carry a shield and shoot while you're running that the bows and the there has had to be super short, and you know, they could get right up next to bison. They just they just did. They'd run in. They think that it average took it about four arrows for every bison, they'd come in and shoot behind. They'd run in behind and shoot them from the flank up through deliver and maybe catch along. And then they had the luxury of tracking. They just pull up and and uh, you know, track them, and so they didn't have to be accurate up to eighty plush hard. But if we go back to you know, the archaic period and some of these back to away from times when when bows became prevalent, what game were they hunting, What were there main sources of food, and what were the options maybe animals that were here that they were unable to hunt um or on you know, on more unsuccessful, because I'm sure there were you know, deer and other species that were important. Yeah, lots, So we find lots of of bones of turkeys, lots of turkey legs. We're looking down at a pot from the Okay, yeah, palladeric can and that came out of there back in the sixties. But lots of turkeys, um armor delos, find a lot of armor dealer shells on the bones in them, Um coons, fox, coyoats, um, lots of deer and uh, a lot of buffalo. We find lots of buffalo teeth and big huge buffalo femers. That's some of the more amazing stuff you're showing me too, and not this I geek out about it. Almost everything you've shown me thus far with buffalo teeth for whatever, ancient buffalo teeth. It's so awesome when when that rolls out, it's so cool. It's you know, because we think the deer and stuff around here, and we just can't picture bison here. And you know, if you can imagine this country is right now, there's so it's so wooded. Back then it was there were very few trees and mainly around the springs and the creeks and all because the natural fires and the bison herds which come through here. And so to to to here that yeah, there used to be bison here in the Indians, we'll actually digging them and finding the evidence that, yeah, they were cutting up bison right here. We'll find parts of the camp that that they would probably do be the butchery that bison. We find lots of big knives and that's where the big bison bones are. The knives I say big, anywhere from five to seven inches long. Do you find an evidence of how they might have butchered a bison with these tools. Yeah, we we see in some of these big bones there's chopped marks on them. And then uh, like we're there's some of these big chopper rocks. I mean, imagine just a big, huge piece of flint that's that's napped on one edge so it's very finely worked, and then the back end is that explain what napped is just kind of so for napping is when they've actually take a blank piece of flint and using the hammerstone, they chip off the flint and on each side they'll turn it back over and chip it make it towards sharp and then once it once it has a pretty good shape to it, then they that's called percussion flaking. Then they'd come back in and do what's called pressure flaking, where they're take an antler tip generally and just hold a lot of pressure to certain angling that pops off little pieces of flint where you can get a piece that's as sharp as any knife. So there's evidence of them of them, uh you know, butchering bison right there, dear and bison. It's amazing teeth, big old bison jaws coming out in this country. I mean we are sitting here, what half an hour from downtown Austin, and you found evidence of thousands and thousands of year olds hunters that are butchering bison. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah, so every every everything about that. When I have a chance to go down to to dig with my family or by myself or whatever, it's like, what are we gonna find today? Yeah? A piece of al Right. It would be hard to describe what you're really finding, because you could say the prevailing term might be like, hey man, you find in pieces of history. I don't know if it's that it's more or less you're finding evidence of who we are or evidence. Every little pieces is just another puzzle piece of the puzzle. It's you know, I mean, you've killed deer on this ranch, and you've butchered deer yet hundreds of yards from where ancient hunter, and ancient is the term when we're talking. We're looking at a book where one of your blaze was featured as the archaic period, archaic blade from two thousand BC found here, correct, right here on the ranch. Uh. That's that's some gravity to me, it's huge gravity. And it's most people are like, oh, that's cool. I like to shape of that. That's an arrowhead and it does not go beyond that. Yeah, and they walk in this room and and I don't always talked about this earlier, for that was our discussion. But they would rather know about the furniture. It is nice furniture, that it's old stuff. It's yeah, it's really nice. But if there's no unless it's belonging to King Arthur, I would be looking at these heads. And that's a that's an interesting distinction. And more moreover, I mean, we could talk about these cultures forever and will continue to do so. But what what's that say about our culture? You know? What's that say about what we value? And I think you and I are both hunters, um, And that's probably I. I self identify as like a family man, a lover of the natural world, hunter like those are. That That's what I would try to describe myself as if if anyone asked, yeah, well, I'm sure you would say similar things. Well, it's what culture do we have here? Frankly? You know, we go hunt in Spain, or we go hunting Russia, or or we go hunting Nepal. Um, that's culture. Yeah, I mean we're staying in a five hundred year old bed and breakfast while we're hunting Greater Cybex or we're we're in a village and getting you know, of history from these villagers that in in Nepal and the m l a s Um that have been there. When wasn't that village you all went to. Um, it's like four generations or five generations. Yeah, many more than that, even I think um. And Yeah, another rabbital to go down was how the weight of that that I felt there trying to learn. I felt like almost I could have stayed there my entire life and not learned everything I need to learn from those people, not only about the history of their place, but who they were and how they live their lives. I'm sure do you feel the same way about holding one of these airheads? Yeah, it's it's awesome, But and what what's cool about it is there is culture. This is culture now our society has I feel uh ashamed to the fact that we're losing it. We don't care about it all. We care about what's on the next iPad video game deal and and you know me, I don't. I don't even have a Facebook page or Instagram so I don't even know how I'm gonna listen to this. I have this, I'll send you, I'll drop box you five dropbox. That's another thing I don't know. Well, you'd be the first person that on this podcast that didn't have one of So that's really nice. That's nice for me. But yeah, I mean it just goes to show, like he said, what is our current hunting culture? And we didn't come here to talk about that. But I love doing that anyway, because culture just aired ideas. That's what culture is. It's the definition of the damn thing. It is a collection of shared ideas that that reverberate through people. And this the cultures that we may be because they're so far removed from My respect for for what you've amassed here is immense, just because of what it means to our own culture, but just to to what it means our humanity. It's crazy. Thank you. It's a it's so awesome to put put this deal together and too and to have people that are passionate enough about it to come and actually want to talk about it. Um. And it's amazing to get to raise my family on the ranch and for them to to have some semblance of culture instead of being stuck and yeah, I mean, you know it doesn't matter. You can live in town and have an amazing culture and be more country than than someone living out on the ranch. But whatever, it's just a neat way to do it. And all there's like I said, it's it's there's perspective in these artifacts that are that's invaluable that I think every hunter should have. So, I mean, there are there places. I'm not gonna have everybody come to your house, but are there the places around where people can um that you feel like our key Yeah? Yeah, you can say Smithsonian do all that, but there are they're key places where, Man, if you're road tripping through Texas, if you're coming through this country, if you want to understand the ancient hunting culture, which is which is key to our own you know, hunting lives just in this area in Texas and West Texas even well, there's one of the biggest paleo um campsites ever known in North America, is called the Gault Site. And uh it's north of Georgetown, Texas, and U t um Can gives tours of the Gult Site and there that's where they found lots of club and stuff, and that's where they're talking about this. You know fifteen the seventeen thousand year old culture that was here before the Clovis Clovis was thought to be here to twelve five thirteen. But they're this Galt site is somewhere you can take the kids um or if you don't have kids, if you're passionate about it, go, I mean, just go learn about it. It's amazing. It's a it's a one of the places you can go. There's also guys that have paid digs is what they call them, where you can you can go online and find a private leone ranch that you know, it caused twenty bucks to go out there with a pick, and you can dig around and find a point of your own, which if you don't own, if you if you don't own a place or have friends that own a place, that it's it's the it's awesome, it's the next you know, there's people who have huge collections that have done this. How would you if if say I got a property and I find a beautiful point like the one on beautiful flint point like the way when I'm holding is this flint? Yeah, yes, sir, Yeah, getting good stone out how I find this point and I want to know more about how how it came to be here and a lot of the information you're saying, what what are ways that I could find? There's that book? Oh yeah, there's there's several books. Um yeah, out take it off. We're gonna start reading passages from arrowhead books. Now get get really deep, go real deal. So this Overstreet book is this weighs about it's the best one. It weighs about as much as three thousand arrowheads might wig. And then there's there's areas of the book south central or wherever part of the United States you live. And it's gonna show you what's your point is you you've compare the base of it you find it will tell you how old it is probably how much it's worth. Um. So this is the over the Overstreet Identification and Price Guy to Indian Arrowheads, twelfth edition, Robert M. Over Street. And it is sixty four pages long. So there's a few ads in there, so we'll give it tweages long. And it is man, it's detailed. Yeah, that's the dictionary of what we do and it's it's a lot of how that's the first one that I went to, yeah, find So if we if I found this head that's in my hand, how would I go about looking through here? So we live in the south central area right there. Let me see what type of point that is. That's a bulloverdy just from so if you go to look at Bulverdi and then it'll you compare it and uh, it's gonna tell you. So it has a thumbnail guide of the forms. So you're you're looking at the base of the arrowhead hunt. The base is gonna tell you what culture it is. Yeah, and then once you find the culture, you flip over to it and find a deal. But that cool, not that we need to go through all this. At this point there it is bolvardy right, and so this is described as a G eight hundred dollars. That's amazing. So the one you're holding there is it G three or four and it's you know, it's worth fifty cents. But to me, it's priceless to what what's the g's that's gonna tell you the grade of the point. So this point that's in the book, and the book we're talking about is the finest artifacts of prehistoric Texas. And a couple of friends of mine wrote the book, Winston Ellison and Dwayne Rodgers. Um. What they did is they had a panel of judges, um about ten judges that looked at the best points that they could find, and then they voted on them to make the book or not. And so that's another book you guys ought to look for is The Finest Artifact of Prehistoric Texas by Winston Ellison and Dwayne Rogers. So a lot of these points. Dwayne Rodgers is the authenticator. There's people that we'll fake these and try to sell them, and so I know these are real because I found them. Yeah, And if I were to sell them, someone would probably want a paper on it, and that would be the guy Dwayne Rodgers. But of course I wouldn't sell these things. Well, I mean that's the specifics. That's it's it's fun for me just to to give people an outlet to what do you do if you find one? I'm sure that would be a question. But back to to what they mean, because you know, I'm generally ideological, philosophical type of guy, and as even as a hunter, I've described this podcast a lot. I think more about the philosophies of why we do the things we do than I do the actual doing of them. You know, So how to find one of these is relevant to me. But but what they you know, what they end up meaning to you, is just as as relevant, if not more so. And so you have do you have a piece in here that you found, like your first arrowhead or your most what you think the most prolific one you found that means a lot to you, that that will point out the folks. This this point down there that my wife found when we're looking at the so most of the ranch we live and I grew up on, but there's another part of it that we bought it. We added too, and when we were looking to buy it, before we had any money, we're just walking down through the pasture. They're near Barton, near the creek, and right in the tirade was a perfect point. And to my wife found it and she said, yes, we're it's meant to be. This is us. I mean, we're gonna live here. This is our deal. I thought you're about to say that. I dropped down on one knee, dropped down. I was still real scared. H I don't think we're married quite yet. I thought you had an air head, uh an engagement error had Yeah, so but that one and then that that point that's seven and a half inches. I was by myself hand digging. That was before the machinery. And it's paper thin. Beautiful and that's the one that's in this in the book here, but beautiful. That's a beautiful piece right there. Just the tip was coming sticking out and I was like, oh, it's just one of these dart points and you know, six inches of it hanging out and I almost fell over when I pulled it out. Unbelievable. And so your best recollection, there's so many rabbit holes, so much stuff. I'm interested to know. Describe kind of the different points you found and how you go about identifying what it is and what it's used for. I mean, are there does each culture? Does each people have a different type of signifier? I mean, so they do? You explain some of it to me, but try to try to take people through everything that's here and how it's identified. Well, there's there points that we call drills that are long that that would essentially look like a drill. Yeah, so you have three I'll have some photos of this up but you have three displays here. Let's just take you through the far left displays. So the drill points, all of their base or a lot of the bases, tell you what type of point it is, what culture, what it what culture it was? How old was that culture? Um, that's that's what the base signifies. So it's really easy to tell. I know most of them in the area. Whenever they come off the table, I grab it. I said, there's a part analysis. We talked my digging buddy and or family, and I'd say, that's cool. There's a Bolvardi, or there's a Castorville or or Lang or lane Tree. And so the cultures that were here were the pardon Alys culture and the Lane Tree culture. And they really they're just giving them names because they were prehistoric. Um, so they're they're from tiniest little things called um gravers. You know. It's just that have little tiny points on them, maybe too to make jewelry with two big knives. That were most of these knives. And this is good that we're gonna talk about this because someone sees the seven a half inch knife and the first thing they say is spear, and they think of some Indian carrying a big spear and stabbing a guy. Well back then these there, these cultures weren't at war with each other, so they're cutting grass with them in the Archaeologists have studied the wear patterns on the edges and found that the majority is fiber cutting fiber. So they used a massive amount of grass in there to cook and to steam these acorns. And that's mainly what they ate is acorns and some meat. But then so there's big knives and then the dart points that would be used on the at lattle um. Some of them are are small because they've been resharpened multiple times, and some of them would say small, how about how long an inch and a half or an inch even? Yeah, you'd be surprised how some of these, when you're showing dark points or even arrowheads, how small they actually are. You know, yeah, there's some of the some of these arrowheads. If you have a dime, you can fit three of them without any overlap. And they're killing buffalo with him. A lot of people mistake it is quote bird points, but these are bison killers. You know, Like I said, you've put a few in and you have the luxury of tracking them. But so from knives to drills, two big choppers, um too, you know, to do some major bone breaking, because they would use that marrow um two um you know, real serrated edge just so they could cut bone with. Or I imagine they've cut a lot of stuff. And there's also what we found lots of jewelry what we call gorgetts, where they make them from slate and they have all kinds of awesome designs in them. Then the holes are in set. They'd wear them around their neck or um, you know, pieces of jewelry that were sewn into to close um, all all sorts of things that the little round balls game pieces were calm there and all the mounds around here. They're like marble, but they're made from limestone, perfectly round little balls just the size of a marble. That uh, I'm sure that you know we're used for game pieces. What does that tell you about how they live their lives? I mean, how do you how do you imagine they gathered in a place, what that they're what did these ancient hunters? What do they prioritize? What do they look for and gathering? And then you know you said there are small bands of people seven eight blessed and ten people. That's what they think. And I can imagine tons of of time for the men to tow to being hanging out in camp and or on the hill making these pieces, making their artifacts, making them. It took a lot of effort to make these shafts. On the at laddles Um. They'd kill a deer and they'd dry the meat and that would get them through for quite a while. You know. The ladies I'm sure would be out gathering firewood and and uh acorns and so lots of community time, but no probably no sense of time. And so they had a lot of time on their hands. And my I'm sure they did. And so if you could see, I used to think of these archaic folkses um, you know, just looking kind of drab and um. But some of the pieces that we found in these caves that have been per erved, the colors of their clothing, the jewelry they wore, I'm sure we'd be stunned at what we would say if we walked into the village of these guys. Yeah, it's pretty some pretty ornate stuff. You know, some of the jewelery you have here, You think, what, well, there's all kinds of even the knives and the cutlery and things that they is what we call it. It's they'd get they'd get limestone and they they die and pack it together and then um, you know they can be you know, yellows and reds and we find it all the time. And so they had a lot of color too. Yeah, that was interesting how you talked about, you know, how they eight and how they you know, gather around these places and what really have through finding their artifacts of artifacts from their way of life, how you can really map out how they lived, you know in the micro sense and the macro sense, the sense then yeah, you know how they traveled and how thematic they really were. Well, if he hadn't seen the when um, when shock, he's over there and with the mass I yeah, sitting around that campfire and and they're just talking about the ancient stories and they're hey, they're talking to each other and they're not texting each other or they're not you know, they don't have a TV tray sitting there staring at some senseless show. I mean, they're actually learning their culture. And I can see him just gathering around talking about laughing and talking about the day's hunt and when so and so was about to shoot the deer and tripped, and you know, and they were laughing and and uh, in a sense, uh, the biggest worry was eating. But it was plentiful around there, and you can always you can survive on grasshoppers, I mean, and they did. Yeah, that's funny. You said acorns. That was not something that I would have guessed. Yeah, lots of lots of acorn ash. I mean they find they've studied, of course, the archaeologists have studied the the hearth and it's just acorns, lots of grass seed. So they take the seeds and they they grind him. Another deal that we hadn't talked about, as they used grinding stones, these limestone grinding stones, and the grit that comes off of them and the teeth that we find in these Wow that you know, these uh, skeletal remains that archaeologists have come acrost. Their teeth are worn down to the bone and so lots of of abscess, lots of death by their teethings. It's funny. That's my that's my professional oral and maxil face of surgery. So it's it's intriguing to me. The culture that now that we're on teeth real quick, the culture, the castel culture out there that in West Texas they would to let you guia, they cook it and then chew the pulp out of it and spit those quids out. And that's what I was. Yeah, you're showing me that we have a lot of that here. But that had a lot of carbohydrate in it, and they skeletal remains, lots of decay, big evidence of big abscesses. Oh wow. And so I imagine it was a terrible what you're saying. There's a lot of you know, a lot of bowel problems, gut problems, a lot of teeth problems, just unhealthy living. Yeah, I mean that we can't imagine. There's no way we I don't think there's any way that we can't imagine that. And in the previous podcast, I can't remember which conversation it was, I talked about wanting to find in the modern sense of the word, you and I both traveled to Nepal, and there's some similarities there, but in the modern sense of the world, someone that has to kill to live. You know, the Discovery Channel loves to put on there, you know, the killed your family lives in Alaska and lives off the land and they choose to live that way. Well, the rub theres they choose to live that way. If they wanted to get into plane, fly into town and have a Hamburger, they could. They just choose to live off the land, which is admirable, but they still have a choice. And I know there, I know in this world there are many indigital the Chimane people that Steve Ronella has traveled and been around in South America. Um, there's that are still living life with thinking about food as the necessity. They have to find that, they have to forge for it. They have to find it. They have to live off what's there. They have to They don't choose to. There's no there's no other way to do it. They have to harvest and kill everything that's to sustain their cultures. Saying their people stay in their own lives, and that mindset to me is one I would love to sit and explore as long as I could know It's that is something that's I can't imagine. Um. When I was in the Arctic hunting, uh muscos My one of my guys was born in an Igloo. So we're not far removed from some of the people to actually get to talk about how it how that really is, I mean, the gravity that they feel that they have to kill. Um. Yeah, But then again, what was it a huge deal to them? Or or would they be like, well, we're just not gonna eat meat for a month, but we're gonna be fine on acorns. Yeah? Yeah, how how that sets up? You know? I was you know, you can read about this and study about this. Um. I hope to do more, of course, but how Yeah, the spiritual nature of hunting, worshiping the animal, worshipping the ground, worshiping the place you lived, and how that man if itself is an interesting concept in and of that. Why was that happening? Was it happening because they felt that if they did that that the natural world would then present them the opportunity to eat meat. Or did did they do that because their world's revolved around that animal so much so that it became a deity or he spoke to them in such a way. So it's interesting to think about someone who's never known anything other than waking up and looking at the world around them and thinking about how they were going to sustain themselves. And we don't. We have no idea how that things are feelings. As much as you and I have traveled at the end of the world to try to at some to find that feeling, will never know what the guy that made that air point in your hand felt like when he killed an animal. Whether he felt pure joy because he knew that his people would be fed, or well, he felt some sort of sadness, or well, what connection he has the animal. Well, it's in your hunt in Nepal, you guys are telling about if you if you can kill an animal and not have any sense of remorse at all, then you might you want to sit it, sit in the trade a little bit longer and do a little bit of reflecting of some sort. But you know, and again, is it killing or harvesting? You know, we kill the animals and I have a great time doing that. I love to to kill. It is and it but it's the DNA that we share with these guys. And I respect the animals too. Sense that you can see how I respect these animals out here. What I've provided these animals on this ranch. And we kill one, we hardly kill one buck year and three does. And it's just an amazing place for these animals to live respect some level of just understanding this, this kind of tapestry of human life that we'll never know how they felt. Yeah, like it is impossible to understand how they felt. And you have a this is a buffalo hide on your wall behind you. That's a buffalo calf, a buffalo calf high that is it's just a tanned you know, poorly tanned hide or an ancient it's from pre reservation. You made it. Talk about it, please do, because I was I'm now I'm looking at him, like, let's talk about this thing. So this, this hide was found an upstate New York seven home built back in the seventeen hundreds that they were remodeling. And in the attic there's an old military home and in the attic bawled up in the corner they found this. They rolled it out and it's a war trophy from the Indian Wars right before a little Big Horn when they'd ran, you know, the government would come in and they'd uh essentially destroy these villages trying to wipe the Indians out. I mean, there's no other way you know about it. That's what they're doing. They take the loot. They take all this stuff that's cool to them. It's just as cool of those guys as just us. They send it back east and they would uh use you know, they call war trophies. So anyway, this and survived and it has about fifteen different scenes of it's one battle depicted here of the Sioux fighting the Pawnee, and the brilliant colors and the the artistry. It's these Indians riding in the horses, most of the Pawneer on foot, and the Sioux warriors with their brilliant head dresses. Some of them were had more feathers than others, and that depicted their social class there and in the tribe. But they're they're having a fallen battle, no guns, all own arrow and lances and uh, it's just a piece of art that is extremely rare. That uh by getting to know the people in the subculture world of artifacts that I was fortunate enough to come across and uh now it's displayed in the Indian room. Yeah, that's just amazing. I was looking at the deal. I guess you call an illustrations pictions of what those look like, and that's such a striking Yeah, it gives color to to there. It's hard to look back in time and see it in color. Um. It's like that country song Jamie Johnson sings. But anyway, it's hard to see that in color. You go back that was a couple of hundred years ago, you go back eight six, eight thousand, you or you go back to the clubs culture. And it's not just buckskin, just one other. I mean, these guys had these brilliant shells from that they were trading from the West coast with inset uh stone, different types of turquoise and all inset um. Just some amazingly ornate um dresses and with elk teeth, with a hundred sets of bugle and teeth on one elk skirt the ladies wore. Well, well, I've got a couple of see how I pull them up here the first time I've ever kind of asked for some questions from past listeners about the topic. There's a few good ones here. We'll go. We'll just do two of them. Chase Rutherford, it asked, h Well, you already kind of covered this, but to be interesting to get back over, do you have any Clovis points and what were they used for? Specifically? Do you you know, let's talk about it. You said you not found clothes here, and I hadn't found clothes here, but but I believe they're to be. Absolutely there's I've have some of my uh digging buddies um have found Clovis and uh the last one buddy have found one in Johnson City, which from the back road here is about fifteen minutes. So absolutely there's Clovis sites. But the Clovis sites are so much harder to find because they didn't they didn't cook in this midden style camp um, and then they were just so nomadic. They may have been there for three nights and maybe left two piece to Clovis points are none and so a lot of the Clovis pickups are missed shots or they shoot at something they can't find their their shaft and then we find them. It may not necessary, that's just a random fine. And so the closes there they hunted, uh mammoth um. That's what the clothes you know, Clovis in New Mexico where they found that carcass. That mammoth carcass were five closed points in it um. But I'm sure they're their clubs cultures hunting armadals with them and deer and and whatever else that they can throw at. Yeah, what's the importance of that? I mean, I've I've heard and read a little about the clubs culture. It seems like a of those that know a little bit about Asian hunters an important culture to know. Could you like place that of the sense of time? There there thought to be the first peoples of North America to inhabit North America and that's why they're so, that's why they're so important. And and um, so they date back to twelve five twelve thousand five years ago and they went extinct about ten thousand years ago. They went extinct with the bison. And take us here and um which is a skull on pointing out of um, Buddy Mine has a big bison jump on his ranch in Wyoming. Yeah, Frank Neville. Ridiculous, ridiculous artifacts there. But yeah, Okay, that's so that's what they're hunting. They're hunting whatever they can eat. They're shooting them at turkeys, they're they're they're just surviving, I mean big time surviving. And uh, that's good. Look up the clothes culture. If you don't know much about it, there's a lot of interesting books and things out there, all to try to throw some links to some of my flute in the club in the point is what's yeah that specific about about that? It has a big flute that runs up the middle of it where they would have to where the the stick would go. It's like a almost like an indentation. Yeah, they're being a big channel of flint out of the middle of it, you know, and then make it thinner so they could put it down the shaft easier and then they could use their sin you to tie it on in the asphaltum or the book. Here we're looking at the paleo the paleo period of the Clovis ten thousand BC two nine thousand BC. Some of these points that are channeled out in the center interesting looking. But that's why he's asking about. That's the fine. I mean, you find the Clovis, whether it's broken or just the base or whatever, and you're that's been on this continent. Yeah, that's the oldest, oldest people that were. I think we're all collectively rooting for you to get the ball close. We just got a big deeper Uh well, we got tools to do it, yes, sir, Chris I don't know how to say your last name. Sorry, Chris Gleam g l e I g l E I am. So I'm really interested in the skills of our ancient hunting ancestors that they acquired and how those are passed on us today and how the use or misuse of them effects are everyday lives, specifically the skills. Yeah, so I can just picture these guys and a friend of mine, um who has this amazing collection of cave stuff, has a whole collection of little kids toys and doll bow and arrows made for little dolls that are like this that are about three inches tied perfectly with all the to scale everything. And so while our kids are playing, you know, playing video games or jumping rope or whatever they're they're playing shooting games with their at lattles to learn. Yeah, and there, you know, I'm sure I can We're picture in them sitting up over a great water source or or a big of the few trees, the oak tree that's dropping the acorns and the deer they're they're up in the top and there waiting on that deer to come in. And the um, you know, they're a lot more silent and they had to be. Their stocking abilities and their tracking abilities were if you've if you've been to Africa and seeing the trackers there, it's just mind blowing. What they can look out across a hundred yards and see one blade of grass it's been over and know what direction where and see these are things that they read, like the oxidation in the stand how many hours? And so these are things that we um with our awesome bows don't need to learn, and so we don't. Most of us don't learn that. Even the most skilled hunters um bow hunters and the guys that are doing long bows and all that are amazing, But but we're missing such a big piece of the Yeah, I think about even your passion, like if your passion was a river. The bigger this river gets, the more tributaries it has, you know, so as you find more heads and get more passion and dig deeper, you you have to almost by proxy, learn about the natural world. Here, the trees, the rock, what type of rocks are in the ground, what type of soil um what to look for you know in that soil. So you, like you said, become an amateur archaeologist just by your own the passion where it leads you. As that you know, the river of your passion gets bigger, it's gonna branch off into other knowledge bases you might not have if you didn't love hiding arrowheads, right, I totally agree. And and you know, and back to his point on on the skills and all it's it takes it just a few moved ten percent of of the knowledge that if the hunter has to kill a big elk, you just you if you were willing to get off the couch and go find one and look at shoot through your scope and he's dead, but you missed where was that elk last night? And what path was he on? And what was he eating? And where do I need to set up? And where do I need to set my next camp for my family to live three more months? Knowing the the way that the elk travel this certain time of year, and there's so much stuff that we're missing that that we don't need but but would be awesome to know. And that's an awesome question. It's just that really that question right there is you could sit around here and have a have a drink and talk for hours about Yeah, I mean, there's so many When I was an editor of Petersons Hunting Magazine or one of the editors. Um, we always every year did like an old school issue where we would celebrate some sort of old school things. But our old school was like, oh the eighties, in the seventies, what did they do? We never thought too or I haven't seen anybody think too. Really look hard at how these ancient hunters lived their lives, and why they lived the way they did, and how they you know, we're talking thousands of thousands of years here where you've got from the Clovis people to the Falsome people. Such an evolution in the human body, the human brain, the human the human ability that we can't conceive of that. Yeah, so just now a thousand years later, we're looking at in the Paleo period Falsome points, which are much more diminut if still still ornate almost in the way that they were incredible they were made. So even the older the you know, you've there're so old times around here that you find a crude air and they're like, oh, that's old, that's all. No. Really old stuff is the stuff that is truly a work of art and and and it seems like you're looking at the fulsome people here in nine thousand BC, or even back over to the Clovis people then they're the first few people in seven thousand. These are if somebody handed that to you today, you would say you would want to put it in a case. Know what it was? That's such a beautiful piece of stone. I did find a plane view which is eight thousand BC, when I was hunting up an lope with with Phil out in the Mexican But yeah, and it's in it. I left it on the ranch. You know. It's beautiful. It's beautiful pieces. Yeah, and that it's it doesn't as rudimentary as it is. It just it doesn't seem that way to look at that. These photos, the beautiful photos in this book. You can't hardly machine these, no, no any better. I mean, it's just amazing. And so the credit that that I give these ancient people now as to where you know, seeing them in black and white. Back when I was growing up, these people were amazing people and I'd love to hang out with them. I love them, I do. I mean, I love their culture. I just that that's what's the driving force in all this. Yeah. Well, and it's I've come to depreciate perspectives of all kinds, and the reason why we record these conversations to try to let have introduce your perspective to other people, right, and then maybe it's something you've said during this conversation can help change the way that they think about our history as hunters or why hunting might be important to them, and they're not even really sure about how to break that down their own minds, Like your love for these ancient people, UM goes way beyond just possessing the things that they made one time. You know what's what's crazy about it is the schools don't don't even teach this thing at all. They're like, yeah, some of the more interesting being in discussion now. When we were talking about earlier, I'm getting ready to leave Texas probably for good and move to Montana set up home up there. And then part of thinking about my leaving here because my son was born here, you know, so it's an important place for me, and uh, part of my leaving here was trying to have trying to figure out how to have conversation with people like yourself that born race, grew up and have this intense appreciation for the natural world here. UM, because as as different as Montan and Texas are, they both have their own stories. If you live in a place, uh and don't know the story of the history of the place that you live, start reading because that's I mean having like connection, family connection you have to this ground. But then also the connection to the ancient humans. That's pretty unique. Yeah, it's interesome and something that you can't nobody can duplicate that. You know, you can't duplicate that by going to the Smithsonian and looking around the connection you have to these heads in this place. Yeah, it's great, it's great. Well, we love it, man, we love it. And it's comes across. Your kids are awesome. So your daughter, your oldest daughter, is going with you to the Brooks Range? Are you telling me going to the northern part of the Brooks Trains just recently apart that just recently opened um to hunting. Our guide has that big new concession up there and lots of sheep. She'll be ten next uh August. And my dad took me, took my brother and me when we were when I was ten and here he was twelve, to the Brooks Rains and we broaly got caribou and doll sheep and it's uh so my daughters. She's like, all right, well when I'm ten, we're going on And I was like, you bet you your daughters ago. Yeah, he's raised them to be brave, brave young ladies. Um, and that's awesome. Going as I started hunt when I was eleven. I think maybe I was just shooting spikes on the in Maryland. But um, yeah, you've traveled the world. Yeah, made it to Nepal. You know, I don't know how many of us the Paul hunters there there are. I guess the Paul well they only have what twenty tags a year and it was closed for how a decade? Not longer? With their silver war you got. Really that Nepaul deal is pretty special. I mean you have to really want to challenge yourself and to to get out and yeah, yeah, I mean you you went last year, well not last year, just got back, just got back from April April, um, a year after I went. Well, if you not heard the podcast that it David Cole Cramer on the subject, you should listen to it. Um. So I won't tell retail my story anymore. But how do you find going to Nepal? I mean, it's like I said that there's a rare group until now that have gone on that can tell stories. But I'm sure more people will go in there. So it was amazing to get to be in the Himalayas, to be it eighteen thousand feet. So we when we went, we thought that the snowpack was gonna be heavy and we'd be hunting sheep at twelve to fourteen thousand. And we show up and and I could tell the guide was dodging the question off that when we got off the airplane, and finally he's like, look, guys, no snow, not much snow this year. You're gonna be hunting at eighteen thousand feet every day. And uh, the worst part about it was cat mean do flu Yeah, I got it to ben at it pretty bad. Yeah, at least we can we can sit and have a whisky talk about catman do flu man? This means like that, but that we were talking about that that place. Um, I'll stop inter up in your story. But the place, it's just a a and the Western sense of the feeling an assault on all on your body, the air quality, the food quality, just everything is assaulted. Then when you get the eighteen towns of feet, your entire you know, your circadian rhythms that are being assaulted by the way you wait you sleep. Well, we were, you know, we get up to sixteen thousand and the guys are like, here, some sheep just's and I'm like, well, where's the rock. I gotta you know, diarrhea bad and so man, it was. It was three days eating rice and uh, thank god, I brought some heater meals. I've read an article and said bring something I brought so we could have some spaghetti or something or whatever, just enough to survive. But we were going along there. At one point my hunting buddy looked at him and he looked like hell, And I said, Kurt, you all right man? He goes l So I'm just trying to survive, and and I could see that he was not joking, and He's like, we made it to that day. And then in camp that night he goes, I swear to god, I thought we were I have to call in dang helicopter or something to save me. It's good to hear that a huge sheep, I know, it like the biggest sheep I've ever seen. Although you know, we went there, we didn't see that many because we were struggling to get close to him. But yeah, that's that's a probably a whole another podcast about a journey like that, but it's it's cool to see somebody like yourself that is able to do this at home and still travel and do those things that bring your kids along. I mean, well in the you know, I was bringing their head with me when I go um that when I was at the Hickoria. Yeah that the grind inch down there, you know that. The cool deal about that was talking to and a true apache my good buddy now Bernard I nz uh Man, just getting to hear that side of things. But anyway we can go, you know, all kinds of different deals. But talking to to our guide in Nepal around camp about his culture and what artifacts are they finding in on I brought home a sixty year fifty year old knife that was used in their camp. That's just archaic and just total badass. Chopped up Shocky Sheep chopped up a fifty year old knife that chocked the Jim Shocky's Yeah, Blue Sheep, I got it. I asked him for it, and he said, you know you you're gonna respect it and and your passion for it, dude, to take it home and display it and tell people about Nepal. Yeah, well that's it too. I mean people, we get caught up in this idea that you know, going over to Nepal might be some truffy hunt where you're just looking to bring back the handlers or the anilers to the horns in this case, and tell everybody how great you are if by doing it. But it means so much more as a person to venture over there and do that, and to know in the going that the animal will be consumed and it's totality. Um, that's a huge part of it, of course, but but to see the artifacts you brought back, and we were comparing stories about what I'm up brought back, what you brought back, and the respect we have for those people and the culture and the and the chance to go and do that. I mean there, you know, any pushback someone might give you, especially the way that you've displayed your hunting life and artifact life here in this room, it is preposterous. Um. Not that they're there's anybody that ever has challenged my going to Nepal or yours, but just to say, like for proof, positive of respect for culture, respect for animals, respect people. Um, it's here, man, it's it's it's in the walls. Yeah it is. It's cool. We love it. We do. Well. That's a that's a good, good hour and a half. It's good to end on the fact that you take these arrowheads to the places you go and give them to the people that you meet. I think that's a damn good way to bring Texas to Yeah, it'll be fun for me because you gave me a nice display of arrowheads from from your ranch here, So I'm gonna take those Montana display the office. Real cool, real cool. Well, thank you, Russell. All right, So yeah, that's it. That's all episode number in the books. Russell Cunningham, thank you for letting us into your home and letting us into your life to hear about you in your family and what you do. Russell did ask me after the fact to explain to everybody that, uh, in Texas, on your own private property you can dig and keep is artifacts that we spoke up in the podcast. So a lot of other states that is not the case, um, but here in Texas that is. So I just want to make Scheck make that clear that Russell is respectful of the land and of the history of the place and understands what he's doing here in Texas finding artifacts, and so hopefully you learned a little bit about the history of this place and some of the hunting cultures that called this place home. So that's it for number. Number is coming up next twenty is going to be with a with a fairly special man. That man is Eddie Reese. Coach. Eddie Reese. Eddie Reese is the winning ist n C double A coach of all time. He is the head swimming coach for the last oh Man since nine at least that's why I remember years. That is the head swimming coach of the University of Texas. And he's a hunter. Eddie is used hunting in his past to help train Olympic athletes who gold medals. And there's somebody who values his time outside. So he's another extraordinary man, seventy seven years old. We're gonna hear from him next time. I'm hunting Collective. Until then, go to the website, hit us up and tell us how we did, and keep listening, keep enjoying the conversation, keep praising, keep telling us how we get back see you M in a m

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