00:00:12 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an all day Everybody, welcome, It's another episode Hunting Collective. I am Benjamin Patrick O'Brien the first I'm joined by Philip t Engineers. Say hello, Philip, that was inappropriate and and I'll called for what was that horrifying yelp at the beginning of the episode. That was a barbaric yelp? I have you know, Okay, I'll have you know. I'm excited for episode one six three. We have spent the last couple of weeks, I would say, getting into some heavy topics phil gun rights, gun ownership, cultural division, all types of things that had is informed and entertained some folks and and and other folks not so much. But we trudge forward now this week. I think we are bringing a lot of that to ahead. I just got finished talking with Clay Nucom on our very first official guard the Gate segment of this show. We talked for over an hour about Senate Bill two fifty two in the California legislature to ban black bear hunting forever. I guess we'll just call it forever. Um. So I think this is really kind of the culmination a lot of things we've been talking about over the last couple of weeks and our really the last couple of years on this show. So I'm excited for you to hear what we uncovered and talked through with the Clay. We got a lot of other things happened in the thhd UH cult universe whatever world, however we want to talk about it. Um, So let's just get rolling, Phil. We have we've we've helped rebuild a marriage. So do you want to hear about the story about how th HC helped rebuild a marriage? I mean, I can't say no to that. Nobody gay. That's this was Jesse g Right wrote in and that was her subject line, th HC helping rebuild marriages. Wow, this is let's say, let's see how this competes with with the dumper story about how th HC is changing lives right? And you know me, this is just a little like it's like a little shine on my ego. I feel like I'm changing the world. And then I'll read your email in the air. That's how it works. Um. She says, thanks for putting out the show that we do. She's a model of a three year old, twin daughters and so she says, so any any alone time is usually valuable and she listens to th HC. So, so thanks for doing that, Jesse and and twin three year olds? Phil, how do you? How do you feel about twin three year olds? Oh? My gosh, I mean, I mean, yeah, that's that's a that's a load, that is a workload. That's like one of the that's one of the things that that always horrified me. And between our first and second kid, having another kid, the thought of it being twins or triplets, something completely unexpected that rocks your world for years. Uh yeah, So my, my, my, my thoughts, my thoughts are with you and and you're a hero, jesse G. Thank you. Um, I really feel like I'm gonna stop saying people's last names because we read so many, like so many emails that have personal implications. I just want to put that out there into the universe that I understand that now, and I am going to just give you the last initial of people's names. Protect the innocent, all right, She said, This is all good, though, She said she has a thank you for providing such a wonderful jumping off point for my husband and I to listen together. To the th HC and for essentially giving us something to find to do together, start going hunting and lessening our distance from where our food comes from. Now onto the indirect marriage counseling that you've offered. My husband is a Special Forces medic and due to the nature of his job, his personality is not exactly the most comfort ning and emotionally warm and fuzzy. That's just like phil. The nature of his job makes him just an emotionally void son of a bee. Uh. It keeps himself, it keeps him safe in the times he's overseas, but it makes it him very challenging to try to find common ground in a marriage as well as just find something to do as a couple and as a family. His family never hunted, but they often hiked and camped, and he continues to love things like that to this day. In contrast, my dad is military and he hunted to get alone time for the demands of job and family as it was his thing. And I was the typical teenage girl. I never got involved in the honey adventures. But he brought my husband and I each a bow for a wedding gift. That's a badass. Wedding gift. Okay, yeah, wow, Jesse, your dad is a badass. A couple of bows for your wedding gifts. We should do more of that in this culture. Anyway, he bought those wedding gifts with hopes that we would just use them together, meaning as husband and wife. I end up being fairly good good with it, and my husband is never wanted to let someone be better than him, so it encouraged us to practice. All Right, we're getting to we're delving deep into this marriage, Phil, deep into this marriage. Yeah, it's very We've we've hit some revealing blocks, so yeah, let's keep going. Then we got pregnant with twins right right before deployment, after years of trying and the trials of infertility. Then move twice, and I hadn't picked up a bow in years until I started listening to your podcast. The Special Forces divorce rate is somewhere between seventy five to that's worth repeating. The Special Forces divorce rate is somewhere around seventy depending on who you ask. With a very high deployment tempo and skyrocking tb I, PTSD and substance abuse rates, it's not very hard to see why, but the solutions are harder to figure out special forces couples need time together, but finding something that both parts of the marriage and joys a real challenge. I once asked my husband to attend a cooking class, and while he did great, it was definitely not something that we repeat it. Hunting, learning about hunting, and just the acts of target practice have been the perfect antidote to these challenges. As can be expected, he's much better with firearms than I am, and so we get the chance to teach each other and learn from each other. They're listening to your podcast and a lot of backyard archery practice during naptime. This is the most relatable story, a lot of it, not all of it, but the kid part is related listening to a lot of backyard archery practice during naptime after the twins go to sleep. I do that all the time. We've been actually been able to find some common ground and an activity that we both enjoy doing together while challenging one another to get better and better. We've even started getting our hunting licenses with the hope that we can eventually lessen our dependence on the grocery store and shorten the path from our food to our dining room table. It's it's almost a race to see who can do it first. But the this is a competitive couple film. Uh and I dig it. I dig that it's healthy for them. It's almost very so you can do it first with the understanding that the time spent together and learning something new is what is at the foundation. We now also have something to keep us connected during these frequent trips, listening to the media podcasts and learning more and more about how to become ethical hunters and passionate controvationists and hopefully top chefs of lab game. We even have plans to renew our vows this year, just to signify how much of a turning point this has been for our marriage and the new direction and more solid foundation this has created for our family. I'll wrap it up so so that this doesn't just ramble on and on, but I just want to say thank you for probably such a meaningful content that can span all ideologies, and for putting in the work that you do. She said, I'm sure that as of the last two episodes, you're dealing with a quagmire of stupidity, So I hope that this serves as some encouragement. Chess g fill the engineer take first crack at a reaction. I mean, that's that's great, that's fantastic. Uh, you know, that's It's funny because like the last few months, I've been trying, like, especially with COVID and spending more time in the house and everything, Like, my wife and I have been trying to find like things we can do together, and it's like always kind of just like, let's try this board game. Let's try to like because I mean we we we both already do a lot of cooking, so but like just something like an activity we can do together, just to like that that we're both enjoying equally. Uh. It's sometimes that can be that can be tough to find with especially with with two kids running around and finding a time for it, the patience for it. Uh So I mean, hey, more more power to you. Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming we're in the trust tree here, we're in the nest since there a lot of people hate me for being a dirty lib. Uh, but my wife and I go to marriage counseling. Do you guys go to marriage counseling? Yeah, we have not not yet. Okay, Well, if you never need you. I got a good guy's name is Doug. He's awesome. He wears the perfect type of sweaters. I don't know if he. I think he might be listening to the podcast at this point, so he might hear the shout out yeah maybe dougal sponsor maybe we'll start reading. As for Doug marriage, But like Doug and my wife and I were talking last Thursday about this exact thing, man that if you have kids, it's it's you know, working from home. Life is changing, it's unpredictable. What do you do together? Man? It's game night and and now I read this email from Jesse g and it all comes together for me. So I'm very happy for this wonderful couple. Maybe Phil and I can be there virtually when you renew your vows. Will you commit to that, Phil, uh? For for their sake? No, I will not commit to it. I say just to suggestion, Jesse, if you want to, like rent a big TV and Phil, Phil and I can be there split screen. I'll even like become ordained if I need to. I don't know if that if there's any official thing that needs to happen with wedding, with renewing of specific wedding veils. But Phil is even just volunteered just now to read some of your wedding veils for you. Um I, miss I missed that part of the podcastah know, as his ammitment to your relationship because now we're also invested in in your future together. Um So, I'm this makes me incredibly happy. And um boy's really a personal touch there, Jesse. When I read that, I thought, Oh, somebody's going through what I'm going through, trying to keep your marriage together in the time of crisis. Uh So, Phil, thanks for thanks for volunteering. I really appreciate you supporting the listeners like you always do. Oh you know me. Um. I got another email from Jonathan B. He said, fine. He said the in title of this thing was fine hunting fascinating, but don't want to hunt. I don't know. This is interesting to me, so I'm gonna read it to you, he said. Uh. I love the podcast. I'm passionate about conservation, wildlife, in our relationship with nature, and this show fuels all those interests of mine. However, while I find hunting fascinating, I honestly have no desire to go out in the field for myself. I'm an active angler and I keep some of my catch, but that's as far as I really care to go with personally harvesting life. For me, I probably donate. And I am a member of b h A. I eat venison and duck um that my family harvest. I'm saving to purchase some land where I can allow hunters to visit and fish if I can find the property with a body of water. I respect the hell out of hunters and enjoy living verycariously through you all. I know this is the year of the new hunter. Best to luck to fill, but I wanted to give a shout out to the other folks like myself. Um and he asked for permission. Phil, do you give Jonathan b permission to join the cult if he's solely an angler? Uh? Am, I have a person who has the power to do that. Yeah, you're the membership coordinator. Oh great? Uh does that come with a raise? No? Okay, then yes, yes, you can join the cult as a person who does as a person who doesn't hunt themselves. And I guess I'm a membership coordinator. I mean anyone can join it. I guess you're benevolent. You're benevolent in your hours. No, I mean I was reading this, I was thinking, is this fills alter ego? Is he is this feels way of telling me? I mean, is I this is very relatable? Yeah, so let's break this down. Feel is this where you're at? You're like, hey, listen, been you're forcing am I forcing you to hunt? Before we get into this Turkey hunting planning? Uh? In earnest because I've got to get some dates. I think early May is where we're looking at right now. But this isn't you? Is it? Like you don't want to just like hang out with us and not take part. Right No, I'm going to take part. I've told you I'm willing to try anything. But like I it's it's it's relatable because like I've been, I've been pretty much. I've been up front. I've been up front with aer call. My number is not high. Maybe it will be after I try it, but but yeah, I'm not like, like like, especially after being here for a while now, like I see the positive impacts that hunting, uh, you know has in in in multitudes, but what whether it's the environment or or otherwise. I I just like, I'm not I'm not compelled to go out there and do it myself. Yet Okay, well listen. Just like last week, we welcome hate listeners. We welcome not that this is directly comparable. We're welcome non hunters as well to listen and enjoy whatever it is you take from this little program. Please please do all are welcome here. Um. So it's good to it's good to know that guys like Jonathan b you're out there and and really Jesse g as well. So. Um, but we got we got a lot of stuff going on in our world. So, Phil, I've talked to Kayla Ray. If you don't remember Kayla, she his I would say, like relatively unknown or little known singer of great talent. She sang, um, what was poetry to my years? White claw wasted? Or can't judge a white claw man by the side of his can and really, uh took a space in my heart with that with that song, And so I was inspired to have her do a song for this show. Now, how long has it been, Phil? Did you have you been here? The entire time you've been here? We've had the same theme song, same introductory song since you've been here, right, Yep, that's true. So everybody's heard that enough, it's time to change. And I know when we switched to the current song, we got a lot of feedback from people who are both very upset and very happy. So this song means something to all you out there. And we also heard that our current song, Old number seven, went up in the charts a little bit after we first launched it. And also it's sales went up. We heard from uh some folks in the know and that it's sales and iTunes went up. So hopefully we can help Kayla ray Uh get what she deserves because she's talented as possibly could be. Um, So, Phil, we're gonna do it. Man, We're gonna do well you suggested last week. And so here's what I need everybody to do. T C. It's meeting our co as the email. And I'm not gonna We're not gonna give you any tangible prizes here, Okay, we don't. We were handing out all kinds of things all the time in terms of prizes. We're not gonna give you any tangible prizes. But here's what you're gonna get. You're gonna get on every episode, we're gonna shout out Kayla we're gonna shout out whoever turns in the best written version with the lyrics of this song. Don't don't send us audio. For God's sakes, do not send us audio of you singing it. That is banned right away. That's that's for Kayla only. Yeah, Kayla sings you do not. Don't you dare? I'm thinking about a few of you. Don't you dare send me some audio of you're trying to sing this. Just write it out, Okay, um t a C at media dot Com. We're gonna give you. We're gonna go a couple of weeks here, and you're gonna be immortalized in the history of this podcast. At the end of every episode, we're gonna thank you and thank Kayla for giving us the theme song. So that's your prize, really great standing within the cult um. This person will be forever immortalized on the Mount Rushmore of THHC. So, UM, I want you to write, this is gonna be a thirty to forty five second little song in the beginning, and then there's gonna be a thirty to forty five second bit at the end. So you just write whatever comes to your heart. It's gotta be poetic. It's got to be meaningful. It's got to define this show. Every new listener that listens for the first time is gonna hear this song and they're gonna have to understand what this show is all about via these words that you will write an email to me and Phil, So no pressure, Phil. Do you want to encourage everyone? Um born everyone? Is there anything that you want to say to everyone in regards to writing a song about this podcast? Not not at all. I've I've been I've been witnessed to too much talent, just honestly wasted talent. Find something better to do with your with with all this, all these skills you have, um, but I have no doubt that we're gonna get a lot of great entries, and it's gonna be hard to It's gonna be hard to choose. It's true, I have no doubt. Um. You know, feel free to suggest songs or melodies that go with your tune, but again, do not sing him. Don't send me voicemails if you singing, because I can't there's no way I can listen to this. Many, as you know, will come in ah in this way. So you feel free to suggest to kayla ay a musical accompaniment that might inspire her. But you don't need to do that. We just need your words and again we will immortalize you in THHD history as the writer of the new theme song. And who knows we make it this on iTunes that might vault to number one in the charts. If you guys don't know hunting celebrity legend in the game, my friend Jim Shocky, he's a songwriter. He writes songs. His his song was like number two or three on the on the iTunes charts at some point here recently. Um so, this could be Kaylory and your chance out there to be actually have written a song that's on iTunes that people actually listen to. Um So, I'm excited. Phil, Are you you excited? Do you have any handicaps? You think Eric All might win this? Well? All this talk about iTunes and charts and uh like writing credits, I feel like we need we need to talk to a lawyer. This this sounds this sounds too official for me. Quiet Phil, Quiet, Okay, sorry, it's not official at all. Nothing we do here is official. And if you're if you're out there and you're a lawyer listening in. Maybe don't write the song. Maybe write it's a legal document. We can have a person who writes a song sign uh. So, crowdsource the whole damn thing, every part about it. So that's that's what we're doing over the next couple of weeks. I hope to have dozens or hundreds of submissions for this. This is incredibly important to this show and to me, Um, and so I am counting on all of you two, I guess, I mean, so weos they make it rain on the th HD inbox with all your poetic and writing skills. Don't forget Barry Gilbert, don't forget fill the Engineer, don't forget teaching Game of Thrones to Stephen Ronella. Don't forget Yetie, don't forget I just don't forget anything. Make it detailed. Okay. Now we got a big thing to do here. Um, we gotta get into Senate Bill to fifty two. As you mentioned earlier, with our buddy Clay NUKEM Clay Nukes gonna help us guard the gate. We're gonna learn all about this bill, and then when we're done, we're gonna really get into what th HC intends to do to help hunters of California continue to be able to hunt, eat, and enjoy the hides of black bears, enjoy Clay newcom Hello sir, Hello Ben O'Brien. How goes it today in Arkansas? It's a beautiful day here in Arkansas. It's sunshining. Everything is everything's going pretty good. Well, you're we you know, last time we talked, we talked about having a segment and we're called Guard the Gate. And I was waiting to have something, you know, really with some teeth to talk about in terms of of guarding the Gate. And boy did we get it, man. I mean, this is what we're about to talk about. Is is probably the best example of of what you've come on this show particularly and talked about over the last year or two at least. Um California wants to bambar hunt. Yeah, yeah, this is we We built this segment for such a time as this, as they say, yeah, like having a button push this for emergencies, and we just bring Clay Nukem on and we saw it. There we go. I wish I wish it was that easy. I me too. Well, I mean, I know you have been thrown into as I I kind of researching a bill that's been introduced in the California legislator legislature, s B two five two, a particularly introduced by Senator Wiener, and the co author was I'm not even gonna say this right boring or hor bath m hm um. And this is this is the impetus for what we're talking about. And I will say, like California wants to ban That's how I just phrase that California wants to BAMBI Honey, that's not true, um, but Senator Wiener definitely does. Yeah. So that's what we're dealing with Senate Bill number two five two in the California Legislature right now. So this bill was introduced on January, and Ben, I don't know exactly what direction we and go because there's so many directions. But you know, this bill is so different than much of what we've seen seriously considered in states for several reasons. But the primary and simple reason that I think people can take home if they just hear one thing is that this bill has zero science, zero data backing it. There there's not you know, sometimes you get a bill that comes before the government agency and perhaps there is a hint of a hint of benefit to it per the science, or per the finances, or you know, there's there's this like small caveat that like, well, yeah, if we really value that over all this other stuff, we might lean towards this. Well, this appears to be well there there is just no data whatsoever by the California Game officials that that that speak to this being beneficial to bears in any way. And that clearly means that this is an emotional appeal to a base of people, that this is an easy sell to and it just sounds good. Like so that's the one you know, I heard our I've heard it said by Robbie it Blood Origins, who did a good job summarizing this bill. But he said, this is the silver lining for us as wildlife conservationists hunters, is that this thing's got no teeth other than it's an easy sell because it just sounds good. Banning trophy hunting bears in California. I mean, that's all that they're saying. And uh so, but there in lies the problem with with all this kind of stuff is for people to get on the same page as us. There's a lot of steps of in formation, knowledge, understanding of intent of the human behind this that has to be taken before somebody can come to a place and go, Okay, I get it. Now see what we need a bear season where for them it's just one thing. Hey, did you know you can trophy hunt bears in our beautiful state of California. I want to stop that because I want to protect bears. That cell is a one step sell. Our cell is like a five step cell, you know, at the very least maybe more. Yeah, and that's what makes it very difficult. Um. But Ben, that's the that's just kind of a it's just kind of entry point for us. Yeah. I think that it's good to talk about because I was talking to Sam Longer, who actually wrote a piece for for Meat Eater uh dot com. New legislation could band bear hunting in California forever. And we were talking about this and he said, are we doing you know? He said, stuff like this is going to continue to happen? You know, are we doing something wrong with our messaging? Like? What are we doing? What can we be doing better to help California? And I said, exactly, I said to him, exactly what you just said to me. Listen, man, we are fighting against and this is true with a lot of things. That's true with with specifically in my case, I believe with a R fifteen bands and things like that, that that you can make up names. You know, Bear Protection Act sp SP two fifty two is called the Bear Protection Act. That's the name of it. And as you as you read the press release from Senator Wiener, he's out of San Francisco. He says, over the past few years, black bears that face unprecedented habit habitat loss due to climate change and wildfires and continued sport hunting in California makes survival and even tougher climb. It's time we stop this inhumane practice once and for all. He has connected climate change in wildfires, which are political topics to Jore too, sport hunting of bears, like that's that's a smart political move to say, you know what threatens these bears. These two things we know are bad climate changing wildfires. Oh and by the bye, sport hunting as well. And we've seen that in other places in other states in the In the science behind that ben is that in the nineteen eighties, the bear population was said to be in California, State of California between ten and fifteen thousand animals. And we're talking about black bears to day in California, and bear numbers are hard to just pin down, you know that. It's it's it takes years to study population dynamics, and so these state agencies when animals are thriving, they don't spend a ton of money on studying. I'm necessarily because they're doing so good, you know, they're they're putting their research funds towards other stuff. But so I don't know exactly when the last statewide population study was on bears, but they say today in despite all the environmental chaos, habitat whatever, there are between thirty and forty thousand bears in the state of California. I mean bear it is. It is absolute falsehood to say that bears are are are under any kind of stress even I mean it's like there now, I'm not saying there's not lots of habitat loss in California. That's that's I mean, the human population is expanding so rapidly, for sure, but it doesn't seem to bother the old Ursus americanas man. I mean, they'll live in your backyard, and uh so they're in lies. Our position too, is that these animals are thriving and they've thrived underneath a regiment of managed hunting in the state. So it's it's a really hard if people had those facts, it would just be like, so tell me again, will you proved to me that bears are are struggling and are having a hard time surviving. I mean, it's just bizarre. Yeah, yeah, to to start a bill like this, especially the public push to get people on on board with this bill because this we're in a very key time in the month of February before as we're just talking to Brian Lynn from the Sports's Alliance before we jumped on. He was telling us that this bill right now has been introduced and it will be kicked around before he gets into committee sometime in March, early March, mid March. So there's some time here where this bill just kind of sits and waits to get heard and it wants this and this is the time to really oppose it and understand how to oppose it. But then you you think of what the hs US, the Humane Society the United States, is saying. I mean, they're they're probably the most prominent anti hunting organization in terms of introducing legislation or supporting legislations on a state by state basis, which again last time we talked, we talked about getting behind the Sports's Alliance for just this reason because they're the ones who were doing the only groundwork here. We can talk all we want um, but they're the ones doing the work and hs US claims and another part of this kind of press push for this bill that's seventy of Californian's opposed bear hunting and support banning it. And again, if you if you're gonna lie to people, you know, you're gonna create a false uh set of encouragements here and there are just a set of falsehoods. Then no wonder se of them opposed bear hunting because they've not been presented with anything near I'd like to see if that's a true statistic or is that you know, what's the yeah? What like, how many people did they ask that, you know, as yeah, assuming that's true, how did we get there? You know? And again that's a big part of this is how do we talk to everyone about hunting and particularly things like bear hunting, which which seemed to be on the chopping block for reasons. You know, we've already discussed the weed that we know, because bears are much easier to like, and they live a lot of times in our kids bedrooms. Um, so, so let's let's talk about the bill itself. I read it. I know you read it. Um, there's a couple of things in the beginning of the bill. It's strike. It's it wants to strike section three oh two of the Phishing Game Code, and and that I'll read that through three o two and we'll just talk about this part. When adopting regulations pursue into any authority otherwise vested in the Commission by this code, the Commission shall annually determine whether to continue, repeal, or amend regulations establishing hunting seasons for black bears. The determinations shall include a review of factors which impact the health and viability of the black bear population. So that's what's currently in section three or two of the Fishing Game Code in California, and this bill wants to repeal that. Literally just crossed it out and read. Yeah, you know, I think it's important to even to take a step back ben what they're trying to do. Like in the way that these these bills are written is they're they're trying to remove black bears from the Registrar of Game Animals in the state of California. And it's it's not it's just semantics, but but it's still might give some information to people about how these things work. So basically, there's a list of game animals in the state. Those game animals are then legal for the state Game Agency to make hunting season and regulations about hunting on and they're trying to remove that animal from as a game animal, which I thought is really ironic, Ben because like so in Michigan, we're I have a deep respect for the Michigan Bear Hunters Association. They're a group, statewide group in Michigan, very well ran good guys, and in the nineteen fifties. Prior to the nineteen fifties, bears in Michigan were not game animals, which means they were hunted, they could they could be they were simply they were basically unprotected, and the bear hunters came in and actually fought four of them to become, uh, you know, game animals, to protect them and under them becoming game mammals, game animals, their populations thrived, and now Michigan is absolutely full of bear and the bears are doing great. So point being, it's all a matter of perspective. He's saying, we got to take him off this list to protect him. But the science and the history means that actually when that animal is on there, it is protected and does better. So just you know, just kind of interesting angles, you know. Yeah, that's really the heart of what what this bill is when you get to read all the way through it, The heart of it is we're removing this animal from the list of game species. And again there's history here with California, but particularly in this case. I find it ironic as well that when I read the determination show include a review of factors which impact the health and viability of the black bear population is crossed out. It's taken out. Yeah, so they and then and I read the rest of this bill, there's nothing to replace it here. There's no I mean, what other agencies in the state government of California would be reviewing the black bear population at all? I mean, are there other public health agencies in this case that might be reviewing it based on problem bears? Possibly but in this case, the Game and Fish Agency is taking care of this game animal. They're looking at the health and viability of the population. And what this is saying is that that that that ride is going to be taken away from him. Is that what you're saying, then, Yes, exactly what I'm saying. You're you're decoupling these things, right, You're taking away the relationship between game animal and Game and Phish Department. Yeah. And that relationship, even in the language in this section three oh two is concrete, right, you know, it's basically what what section three or two is saying is that every year or you know, at at timing dictated by the Phishing game, they will annually determine whether to continue, repeal, or amend regulations establishing hunting seasons for black bears. The determination should include a review of factors which impact the health and viability of the black bear population. It doesn't say we're hunting black bears forever, does it. It says we're going to review this every year and determine the best course of action based on our North American model of of conservation. You know what's so wild about it, too, is that if we had this track record of bumbling black bears, and it's like, Okay, State agencies, you guys have been in charge for black bears for the last fifty years and you've about random into the dirt. You know what, we're taking it back. We're gonna give the regulation of these animals to someone else because of such a bad job you've done. And bears are almost gone. Like that's one story which is the exact opposite of what's happened pretty much everywhere. Game agencies, conservation based hunting, license sales, funding of all this stuff has worked. And Ben, you've heard me talk about it, You've talked about it. We all know that black bears are one of the shining stars of of big game animals in North America right now that are five in ways to adapt into new habitat and are expanding their range all over. I mean, there's not a ton of big game animals that you can just say, man, now there's you know, they're moving into North Texas, and they're moving to Oklahoma, and they're moving into you know, they're just there's all these all these populations are expanding and so like this isn't a thing of merit. It's not like you've done a bad job, so we're taking it away. And that's usually the way things work in life, if you're a normal human is do a good job at something you can you get to continue to do it. And and that's why I've been like we can be upset and and even angry, which it does elicit these things inside of me, but we realize that we're not fighting against logic. We're not fighting against uh or standing against you know, it's not like these people if you just sat down, if they just listen to this podcast, there to be like, oh we were long, we're we're fighting against something that's a lot deeper, and it's uh ideological clash, it's uh, it's a lot of different things and and there in lines of problems. So it's it's powerful for us as hunters and conservations to have this information. I think all this stuff that we're talking about ought to be on the tongue of of people that care and and maybe not everybody can you know, maybe all the details aren't as important, but like it's really powerful to have this information, this understanding, but still we're dealing with something bigger than this, you know. Yeah, it's it's so it's also connected to me. It strikes me as like it's one of the things I'm most that elicits the most passionate in me about. You know, in the realm of hunting, is that when you connect animal rights ideology two, a growing division in this country, fueled off and by misinformation and media spin and propaganda, and and that propaganda is often attached to ideologies. And that's what's happening here. You know that we we might say we had it. We did a episode with Miles Nulti a few weeks ago where we talked about media and division and how that affects US. And here we are a couple of weeks later, looking at a good example of it. And and hs US spokesperson Sabrina I'm gonna get this wrong too, I always do. As Sean Um. She's the California State director for the h S. She said, California's deeply value the environment and have shown time and time again that they don't want to see their iconic wildlife slaughtered for sport. By passing the Bare Protection Act, California can cement its position as a leader and protecting our natural resources and spare thousands of California's majestic and beloved black bears from a needless and unnecessary death. Wow. Wow that hurts me, man, Yeah, it really. It feels like it's not if it is a personal attack, because what it what it's doing here is using propaganda to paint hunters as a bunch of trophy hunting egotistical assholes who don't care about the virtue signaling is strong in there, setting it up as hunters who don't care about these iconic species. Virtue signaling. I like that word. I see where you're going with that. Yeah, it's signaled. It's signaled where value live. Yeah. I've got three things here, Ben, and I'm gonna say all three of them, and then I'd like to make a comment on them. Please this this, this legislation sets precedence, and that was in her uige. You know, to be a leader, California set to be a leader. Um. I also want to comment on the unneeded death of bears what she said? And then uh um, and then trophy hunting. Can I make a comment on all those I wanted to say so I wouldn't get them. The reason the reason this is so dangerous is because of what she said, what they see like this is not normal legislation. We normally don't just make legislation based upon ideology, especially with legislation that has formerly been instructed by science and history. And so the problem is is that if this passes in California, it gives a wide open door for other places to do the same thing. And we see it all over politics, is that one state does something and then all of a sudden, it opens the door for other states to do the same thing. That's number one. That's why comment on that too. We were just talking to Brian Lynn, like I said, from Sports Alliance, this is the thing that they battle. If you go back and list to the their appearance on this show or others, this is the thing that they battle, precedents setting on the judicial and legal side of this. I'm not an expert in that, so I won't go into it. But what happens all the h s US is trying to do here is set a legal precedent to argue against in other states. That's a big part of this, what what they're trying to do. And they can get it done near San Francisco, California exactly, And so that the power here is not only in what happens in California, but the precedence it'll set legally into the future. And that there's already a bunch of concrete examples. I don't have them lined up here right right now, but certainly we'll be talking to the Sports Alliance more about this as it unfolds in the months to come. But that's you're you're exactly right, both on the legal side and the public side. I mean, I think there's two kind of layers there, and that is exactly why this matters to all of us. I mean, I may never bear hunt in California, and I would bet that of the listeners of this podcast may never bear hunt in California, but this matters to all of us. It matters to a pheasant hunter in South Dakota, a squirrel hunter in Kentucky, a deer hunter in Arkansas. I mean because it you know, our our world is now so connected through technology, through media, We're just so massively connected. No longer can we divide ourselves and continue to stand like. That's why this is so important. And that's the whole essence of guard the gate, ben And and is that guarding the gate means it's not just bear hunters in California that have to stand up for this. It's not just bear hunters in the in this country that I have to stand up for it. But what we're trying to to build is a is or we're trying to elicit a responsive help from everybody. And I want to we can talk later about what that help is UM, because I want to try to get specific, and I want to hear your thoughts too, because I've even got some questions about UM. I mean, here's one thing that gets gets into this man, like how how crazy is it? And we we talked about this all the time. We talked about this with Colorado ballot Box biology in terms of reintroductional wolves. We've talked about that on this show. What we're talking about here is even a more extreme example, I feel, because there isn't a bear population in San Francisco County. Senator Wiener represents San Francisco County. This is a county that doesn't have a bear harvest. There's no bare depredation issues in San Francisco. This and and then take a few steps back from that for a minute, let that soak in, and then go back to the hs US comments about how this is leading a county in California with no bears in it is leading the legislative battle to ban bear hunting. Like you start to connect those dots, It gets back to this cultural divide. It gets back to these ideologies we've we always talked about on this show. Is is such a as you dig this, as you rip this thing open and kind of look at it, it lays bear so many very important issues in our world. It really does. Because this is it seems so ludicrous to us people that are really like PROPRIETI is of this of this information that that we traffic in it. We talked about it all the time. To us, this seems crazy um. But to to folks in San Francisco, this seems like common sense. And the divide is painted thus lee like that. There it is. Man, that's the divide um that we're that we're working with here. And and I don't know how to bridge that gap in this case. I've got some ideas, but that's what we have to do, because to your point, it isn't just about this case. This is going to continue as our cultural division continues, and the rural, rural and urban divide ye strikes deeper in our country. M hmm. Yeah, that is a great point about San Francisco County. Yeah, I mean there's bears breaking into cabins all over California, none of those are in San Francisco. They harassed livestock, they destroyed property, they do a lot of those things. Not to say that honey is there to stop that, but certainly this is just to say that, you know, how can you have a perspective on on what really needs to happen here? And that goes back to our our model of conservation of this country really this continent that says that we do not and should not enact wildlife policy in this way. Yeah, science is the way, been the So the two other things I wanted to comment on was she had language in her in her right up there about unneeded deaths of bears in California. And first of all, all bears die, they all die. Um, I think we know that unneeded is this is the weirdest word. It doesn't make any sense, doesn't compute in a natural sense. Yeah, bears, bears don't live forever. Um, so they're gonna die somehow. But that's not my point. My point is is that bears that get into trouble and State of California. I was told by a guy yesterday that lives in California that I spoke with that at least in his region, the California Game and Fish no longer relocates problem bears. They just euthanized. They kill him. I mean, I don't even want to say the word euthanized because that is such a tame word for they kill bears. So if you get a bear on your in that and that does inhibit some people, he said, from calling because he has a bear coming and bothering him and at his house and he is just doing everything you can to solve the problem on his own, which is a good thing, so that he didn't have to call a Game and Fish because he knows they'll trap it and they'll kill it. So and I don't I can't say that that happens everywhere in California. Maybe it does. But the point is that uh depredation permits which this this uh this bill lots for the Game and Fish to continue to manage bears as needed as I understand it, like, so it doesn't take away the California Game and fish is ability to catch problem bears and put them down. So this this bill, it's not it's not really saving bears. It's just other people killing bears. Yeah, it just says it will make it illegal to kill bears except for scientific research, the protection of human safety, public property, livestock, and endangered species. Um and So this isn't The Bear Protection Act doesn't necessarily protect bears all the way around. No, it doesn't protect bears. And so you get back into this um and and I'll tell you that when Senator Wiener has has made statements previously that most hunters only hunt bears for trophies, leaving the meat behind, we know that to be blatantly false. That's blatantly false. There's there is absolutely no data, no overarching statements that can be made to back that up. There just isn't. There just isn't most hunters. Is a generalization that we can't We probably can't even back up. Yeah, but we know that you and if even if that was the case, there's other things that can be done. I'm not advocating for want and waste laws because there's a lot of issues of one and waste laws UM and what they do for individual hunters. But there's other things that we can do here. Um if that was the case, it's not and we won't. But just just just saying the outright banning, and I go back to what we were saying last week with with Ian Harrison about banning air fifteens or assault weapons, which is a made up term. The burden of proof is on in this case the government. If you want to restrict somebody's activities in this way. This is this is not a constitutional right to go hunting. There's not a I wouldn't mind there being a constitutional amendment talking about how cool it was it go han, but there isn't one like the second amend But in this case, the burden of proof needs to lie on the state government here if they're going to ban this, and and particularly lies with Senator Wiener. He seems not to care about that burden of proof, but the burden of proof must lie on him and the other folks here that are backing this bill. And to match that burden of proof up with someone saying generalizing hunters in the way that he's done publicly and clearly is doing with this legislation, that's boarding borderline sickening. M hmm, it's really yeah, it's it's just it just doesn't seem like a kind of thing that we can attack with logic. But and I just don't know how to better put it. Yeah, you know, the trophy hunting aspect of it, that is such a that that's like, that's like, uh, you know, political hot button word. You know, there's so many other words that we hear. Yeah, exactly, And you know, this is the information that I feel like every hunter, every single hunter in North America has to have on their lips. Is that. You know, somebody says, well, what about trophy hunting? You know, the first thing you say is, well, ma'am. We have a strong ethic inside the hunting community, especially in the last twenty years, of utilizing every possible part of the animal that we're killing. Number one, Number two in the North American wile of wild life conservation, we have pillars the pillar of non frivolous use of wildlife, which means that wildlife is never killed for no reason. Now, there are some animals that we that we manage and kill that we don't eat, like, for instance, coyotes. Like there's a time when you need to manage coyotes. We don't kill a kyote for his meat necessarily, but we kill a kyote is a fur bearer, so his hide is harvested. Um. So this idea of shooting a deer and cutting off his horns and leaving everything is not that doesn't happen. There are laws that put people in jail for stuff like that. Uh. Secondly, and this is where I think hunters and and our world can give insight into people that actually kind of flips the light switch and goes, maybe these guys are smarter than they've marketed themselves as ben And that's when you say, and it's a pretty easy sell. I've taken people from zero to understanding the kind of the hip hypocritical twisting of trophy hunting pretty quickly, and been to say that trophy hunting, or what some would would say would be to target specific older male animals that either have big hides or big horns, that actually saved North American wildlife. It turned us from a bunch of market hunting people in the late eighteen hundreds. We then began to culturally shift to where we valued big antlers and big animals, which were the older age class males, older age class males. By targeting those animals and give them quantitative value to them, we took the pressure of females and young and actually allowed populations to greatly expand because as a culture we said, man, we want to kill the big one, and guess what, we ate the big one too, more meat, bigger horns, cultural value assigned to that animal. And it took the pressure of females and youngs and actually helped was a dramatic, influential part of saving North American big game. Man. Like, I've told that to people and they have I think it was like synergistic in a sense, Like it it them understanding that was actually a bigger piece of the puzzle than information I gave them, because they're like, ah, there is some insight behind this. These aren't just a bunch of rednecks wanting to shoot stuff. Um. So, you know, every time I hear the word trophy hunting, if we do the same, if we do a podcast next month, you'll probably hear me rant about trophy hunting. I'm gonna do it again. So much of this is is repetitive. I understand, like we're preaching to a certain choir here and we're saying the things we've said in the past about similar issues. But we have to, um, we have to if one person in San Francisco County listens to this and says, huh, I don't I don't agree with everything there, But I've taken this, this and this, and I go back to my community and tell my friends, Hey, you know how we used to demonize these people. Yeah, that that wasn't just quite right. And that's one of the said, one of the reasons why I try to talk to as many anti hunters as I can, as many vegans as I can, just understand where they're coming from. I don't want, I don't necessarily want to build that propaganda on my own head. But to get back to like, I think we should talk a little bit about kind of the we We touch on this all the time with Pittman, Robertson dollars and and yeah, we've repeated this number and I think it still stands true. It fluctuates state by state, But of Game Department funding comes from hunting, that's licensed sales, Pittman, Roberson, dillars, other things like that. That's a general number. It fluctuates, as I said, but in this case, the California Department with Fish and Wildlife, they allow each year for sevent bears and their harvest quota. A lot of agency biologists have suggested recently that it be higher than that, that it go beyond that because of the increases in population that you were mentioned in earlier play. H So who knows, but hunting bears with hounds has a moratorium. It's been banned. But and I'm sure since two thousand thirteen. I'm sure that's that's hurt that harvest quota number. So last year there were thirty thousand, three hundred ninety four bear tags issued, only nine only nine nineteen of them were filled. That's barely more than half the quota out there, Ben, I'm doing the math. Thirty thousand, nine hundred license sales, is that thirty thousand, three nine four thirty thousand, three hundred ninety four times they cost fifty dollars each for a resident. It's like or something, um so fifty dollars, so, Ben, that is one point over one point five million dollars raised the state. UM as far as I know, that's second only to deer tax in terms of revenue for the California Department Fishing Wildlife, second only to say that say that ship again, second only to deer tag sales. What this bill would intend intends to do is cut off the second biggest species related funding opportunity for the Department of Fishing Wildlife. Yeah, that's what it intends. Can you like, as a hunter who thinks this is such a grand experiment that that's working so well to be be talking about something like this, Um, it just seems to me. It seems patently insane. Um. But anyway you think of then you go to California. I was, I was putting that six number out there. Um, in California, it's a little bit different. I was just looking it up. Hunters and anglers contributed about a quarter of the department's entire budget through license sales and excise tax. So that's a fluctuation that I said, that's a pretty big one. But um, then you go to this idea that now we're going to start killing paying someone else, hiring someone to kill or dispatch problem bears as they do with problem lions mountain lions currently in the state. Now you have not only a loss of funding, but in an additional cost at the burden of the taxpayer. So it doesn't line up very well on an economic front. I don't think. Um, so, there's a lot there. There's there's a lot there. But I think it would be do you feel like you could You could talk to Senator Wiener and give him this, and and talk to h us and give him this. And he said, oh, oh no, we haven't seen that before. We didn't see that, We don't know about that. We weren't aware of those numbers. Let's go back and recalibrate this bill based on those numbers right there. Yeah, because part of them you do that. Part of my job is to make sure that I've taken care of my constituencs and my constituents or taxpayers. Yeah. So you know, so the last year there were less than a thousand bearers taking the state of California. You said that number. The quota was sevre. That's right. Which quotas are set by game agencies that have the day to have the research. Um been a number inside of bear management that would be used by pretty much all game managers that I've ever dealt with, is that if you want to stabilize the bear population, you need to at least take out ten of that bear population annually, because the bear population increases by about ten percent per year. Um. I've I've done the math before. I've walked the math out like twelve years, and I'm pretty sure that county natural a mortality and natural mortality and that growth rate of ten percent per year, I think a bear population will double in like twelve years, nine to twelve years. So if you had it's really interesting to do the math because um, because you just think, like, what if they just totally stopped hunting. You know what, what if there was no hunting and just natural mortality was the only way that very popular, you know, the population was managed. So I mean that would be uh. And there's constraints on that, you know, I mean that there are habitat constraints and stuff like that. But um, that being said, if California's goal was just to stabilize the bear population, which I guarantee they're not trying to the game and fit, there's not a biologist in California that will say our goal is to help bears and we want them to increase, Like I I really don't think they would say that in the back room that their goal is to make there be more bears in California. They're just trying to manage the bears they've got. And so you think of thirty to forty thousand bears in the state, would stabilize them, that would be a quote of three to four thousand bears per year. You could take out that many and not even affect the bear population. And we've seen those numbers come true as well, because you know, ten to fifteen thousand bears in nineteen eighty, there's thirty to forty thousand bears. But we've been killing a thousand a year been presumably and even more so, like hunting has been a part of that, and we're still you know, over you know, doubling the population in um and you know, like forty years. So point being that you stop all hunting in California, then you're gonna have massive bear populations quite quickly. And just you know, I mean, that's just science. You know, those I would I would put that statement up against. I means that that's just biology. That's just science. Yeah. Well, and and as far as I know, somebody listen, and this is not something that I have research, and I've talked a little bit like said, Sports Alliance guys and some other folks about this and locals on the ground. But I can't say this across the board. But what I've heard is that no one is eating the problem bears that are euthanized and killed in the state of California. So nobody's utilizing the hides. And I've heard that they're often or at least in some cases thrown into dumpsters, um And and this that that in and of itself, I mean, there's so many that I couldn't disagree with this particular thought process, ideology, legislation more on any other base just than that one that that the the value that someone else is going to tell me that they value this animal more and they want to stop unnecessary killing. Yet my value comes with the meat and the hide and the actual animal itself, not the idea of the animal on a landscape that doesn't exist, right, And so that for me is that's the most painful part of this. That hidden beneath the emotional pull of of trophy hunting of bears is a lack of understanding of what what a bears value really is and the lack of the value of the actual meat and hide itself like it is. There's some holes in the ethics, the paint like the just the veneer painted over, legislation like this. M hmm. And Ben, this is a great place to to say something that we've said for a long time. But I'm hearing more people say it, and so I feel like the message is getting out. But I believe that we utilize more of a black bear than potentially other any other big game animal that we hunt because we eat the meat of a black bear, which the world is now finding out how great black bear meat can be. Number Two, we can we can render the fat of a bear. So usually you know, if you had fat on an animal that that would be you know, it's not a commodity you take home and render down and use. You know, that would be waste in some ways, which isn't always about. There's always gonna be some waste on anything, even in commercial butchering of animals. But we render the fat of a bear, and we're learning how good bear grease and barrel oil is for just everyday use. I mean, I'm amazed how many people are doing this now, which is awesome. And then you know, I bet nine the this would be generous, probably closer of bears that are harvested, their their hides are tanned to be saved for future years, which you know, think about how many deer, what would what would the percentage of white tailed deer in this country be that people tanned the entire hide less than one. I mean, you know, you's know what I'm saying. And I'm not throwing white tailed deer hunting under the bus, but I'm just saying from a utilitarian standpoint of utilizing a game animal as a commodity, which is part of our responsibility as hunters man. Black bears are at the top of the chart, and so to say that all these bears are gonna be killed in California, nuisance bears killed and they're either buried with you know, they're buried with baccos, or they're or they're putting garbage bins, and that that's the truth. I mean, I've heard that, Ben, and I mean I can't take you to the documentation that says that, but I promise you there there could be the odd bear, that is the hides tanned or something for for science or to be given away or something. But certainly it's it's not like they have some system in place for every bear that's killed by government agents to be the meat to be distributed, the hide to be tanned. They don't have any bear grease renders out there working in the state of California, as I understand that, being paid by government dollars. They need. That's what they need. They need somebody full time rendering all that bear fat. That's what I think. There's a guy named Earthling Ed who's like a big animal rights vegan activists. I'm sure he's not listening, but if if he is, come on the show, let's talk um. And he's he's had a few debates with hunters and different things, but he always talks about the astroistic hunter. He's he's he pulled some clips from well known hunters talking about how, you know, if we don't kill him, nature is gonna get him. And a lot of this this idea that we're trying to say, like we are merciful by killing these animals, and I'm not making that argument at all. I'm looking at numbers, I'm looking at data. I'm gonna look like it's assess a wildlife management. But even if I throw all those things out, what you just said matters. You know, bear fat, bear fat, you know, white tail fat and bear fat don't have the same value within the hunting community. They just don't. UM. Bear hides and deer hides don't have the same value within the hunting community. They just don't. UM. Bear meat and dear meat don't either. I think we could do a lot to kind of level set that in the years going forward. And you have already done that, and meet Eator's done a lot of that work. UM. But when you know, in terms of altruistic hunters, I don't think of it that way. I don't. I don't consider myself altruistic for killing the bear. I consider myself utilitarian, you know, more than that. So I'm not. It just goes to kind of how an animal rights person seize this argument and how I see it. U. But and before we want to I do want to get to what people can do here and how they can help, because you know, both houses in the state legislature in California, in the state government have a super majority from the Democratic Party, and they have a Democratic governor, Gavin Newsom, who has signed some of these bills, UM has passed some of these bills to ban certain types of hunting in the past. And so here we are with if Gavin Newsom wants to make it happen, he'll probably sign it, just like he did bills banning bobcat hunting and fur trapping a couple of years ago. Now, um, certainly if we go through the history of bands of this nature, the state banded mountain lion hunting and they bought they filed up with you know, a couple of decades later, they will We'll just band bear hunting with hounds that was, and then those other two bands that we mentioned, um. In so, if there is anything that illustrated the creep that you talk about with Guard the Gate, those numbers right there, those years, I mean you're talking about, you know, at this point a thirty year creep, and we've made it, and we made it to all the way from banning mountain lions and hunting with hounds, all the way to banning the hunting of black bears highly populated and in a revenue the revenue black you know, revenue in the black species in the state. You know, we've made it that far and thirty years, So who knows what we gotta do but before we get to what people can do, and we've talked about this before, so we will some of this will be repeating ourselves. We have There is a illustrated divide between us and them, and I hate that. I hate it. Um. I want to just talk quickly, Clay, about what can be done to illustrate our points here directly to the people we want to talk to, because hunters, and whether you're a new hunter or a veteran hunter and you're listening to this podcast, I'm hoping that you agree with what what is Clay, and I is you know, passionate plea for understanding here. But I don't know if I can get center a weener on this podcast, but I'm gonna try. Um. But other than that, which seems unlikely, maybe we catch lightning in a bottle with that. But other than that, Clay, what do we do to bridge this gap? Because I am not willing to engage in and us versus them dialogue that gets us nowhere, but convincing us how right we are and how wrong they are, because the only way the only way that we fix this is to come over over to them and see what the hell they're thinking and why how we can really make a large scale impact on the thought process and ideology of ye of this anti hunting crowd, you know, being I just I just get jotted down four things right here, and it's I wish there was just a clear cut answer, man. I mean, some things in life, some problems we have in life, there is an answer. It's like, do this and you will succeed in what you're trying to do. This is not one of those things, but there's a there's like a suite of things that I think that we can do, and not one of them, not one of them is the is the Golden Key. But they're all really important and but I think they're all really attainable things that we as North American sportsmen and women can do. And then I'm just gonna run through these real quick. The first one is is is active activism, which means to me, part of that is joining groups, conservation groups that are in this fight at a real level. And man Sportsman's Alliance. I think when you buy a hunting license, there ought to be it included in that license should be an extra twenty five dollars a year to be a member of Sportsman's Alliance. Sportsman's Alliance ought to have eleven million members. Uh. Those guys are there there fighting the fight every day. They know legislation, they know government, they know politics. They this is an incredible group. And I mean, I don't get I got no affiliation with Sportsman's Alliance other than I'm a member, and I would be a life member if they sold a life membership just like so, so number one activism be be a member of you know, Safari Club International, Uh, you know Boone and Crockett Club, Rocky Mountain, Elk found it. You know, there's all these groups, all these groups, but specifically in this fight, Sportsman's Alliance is uh is leading the way. And I know I've left out others man and please, people are so petty like if you leave out one, they're like, oh, Clay must be against such and such National Wild Turkey. Nope, joined the National Wild Turkey Federation too. A hunter ought to be financially responsible, and we've got to be in this day and age, we just have to be like, be members of these groups and support them because that's big. Um. The other thing is just we as individuals have to be educated because every you know, all over your life there's points of overlap where you are a hunter, you have an identity as a hunter, people know you, and you have opportunity to portray hunting in an accurate way, which dramatically influences public perception. Asked roots activism of just the average guy, the average guy being educated. Being back in the nineteen eighties, hardly anybody knew a single thing about white tail deer. If you ask somebody what a snort we was snort weez was in, they didn't know because nobody ever said that before. Um. Today, my twelve year old son can knows more terminology and more of the basics of white tail deer biology than the experts did in the early nineteen eighties. You know, I'm exaggerating to make a point point being we can bring the baseline of data and information up so that the average guy that buys a hunting license, when he hears someone say, oh, bear hunting is just trophy hunting, he goes, what the heck are you talking about? We we we utilize bear meat, we we render bear fat, and trophy hunting actually saved North American wildlife. So targeting the big ones not about it. You see what I'm Sawing saying it's like we just have to like that just has to infiltrate us. We just have to be smarter, faster, wiser. And uh so that's number two. Number three is too um you know, I say this solid time, and Ben, I scrutinize my own self. But you know, I can talk a big game on a podcast about being ethical and and you lize and bear meat and all this stuff, but man Clay nucom has to look at his own life and find holes in his life where my declaration does not meet up with the life that I live. And so like, you know, so if if we talk about hunters being ethical and hunters being um, you know, the good guys, man, you got to make sure that that's who you are when nobody's looking. And I think that and I say this, and it's really a romantic idea. I mean it's just you know, but I like this idea of of hunters being like an elite pee. Well, you meet somebody that's a hunter and you're like, man, I bet that guy has character. Man I bet that guy's honest. I bet if that guy worked on your house, you wouldn't have to worry about him, you know, cheating you out of money. Like, like, I think our connection to wild places and our connection to just the realism of being a hunter should make us better people. It's not the only thing that should make us better people. There's a lot of stuff that should. But so like, I you know, clean the inside. You know, there's a biblical reference of cleaning the inside of the cup first, and uh, and worrying about the stick in your eye before you worry about the stick in your brother's eye. Man, that's so true. I mean, people, there's weight behind words that people have because of internal stuff that is unseen. When somebody says something, sometimes you're just like that guy knows what he's talking about, and it's because of the lifestyle that he lives, the place that he speaks from, people perceive that. I I think it's North American hunters. We can live a lie style that gives our ideas credibility simply because who we are. I deeply, deeply, deeply believe that. Um, you know. And then overall, ben like, what can we do? What can we do? Man? In a democratic society, We've got to make a splash, you know. Brian Lynn told us just earlier that that if these bills can be cut off before they actually reached the legislative floor, that they're much easier to handle. I mean, what I'm seeing on social media right now is that guys are tagging this senator, people are speaking out about it. We've just got to make our voice heard, and that is often done in uh. You know, there's petitions that you can sign that are going around right now. There's uh in in in that's where it's tough to know who to trust, Like where do I put my petition? Man? All I can say is that find a group that you trust and just do what they do. You know, um and uh, but we've got to just take the time to do it. You just gotta take the time sign that petition. You know, repost something on social social media is so powerful. Repost something. And what I always say to and I said it this week on my some of the stuff I was talking about is we gotta stay classy. I mean, if we're just perceived as a bunch of raven rednecks going wild on this senator, we will not be heard. If we are intelligent, smart, respectful, empathetic towards those who don't have understanding. There are people that are not bad people. They just don't know. And if you walked up to him and said bear hunting is bad, we need to stop it, they would go yes. And then if they sat down with me or been Ben, if they were at your house and that dinner with you and your family, and probably ten minutes, you could convince them, oh, it's it's actually really good like that. That's not a bad person. That's just a person that's not misinformed. We've got to have empathy towards people, and we've got to be careful about drawing these lines of us and them, which we have to because it is us and them. But at the same time, we gotta be able to make inroads for people to to change, you know. And uh no, man, the biggest thing is be financially responsible. Dedicate your money two good causes. Clean the inside of your own cup. First, be educated man, like you hear Ben talk, or you hear Brian Lynn talk like you ought to be able to talk like that too, and not everybody can, but you should. Well you have to be challenged right like you can't. I was one of the things that really got me going on. This was years ago, mostly four or five years ago. I was sitting with a representative from the company Patagonia at We're getting together to try to talk about some some stuff on a business level. But we also had this like shared idea that public lands and hunting we're a good thing. And it was kind of a you know, it was a tete a tete. It was kind of I was saying my things, they were saying, there's um And they asked me very simple questions like tell me about this excise tax. I don't understand this, I understand this. Tell me why this is good. I don't understand Tell me how the hunting funds all this stuff. Tell me why you're so confident that hunting is a good thing. And it was a point in my life where I could speak what I felt was in my own head was a cursory knowledge of these things. I could speak on the Pittman Robertson Act, I could speak on the American system of conservation funding. I could speak on the North American model of wildlife conservation. But I didn't know enough about it to be as passionate as we are here today. And and I was dancing around some of the things I didn't know, the gaps of my own knowledge were we're not we're we're roadblocks in my passionate appeal to these people who were just asking genuine questions. Um. They weren't trying to attack me, they weren't trying to call say I was wrong. They were asked me genuine questions so they could get educated about these very important topics to me and to them um. And it was those conversations and and many others like it that affected me so heavily that I wanted to start a podcast where we could talk about those things in depth and learn about them together. You know, We've since I've since had Dr Valarious Guys of Shane Mahoney on this show multiple times and read their new book on the North American Model of wild life Conservation. I think I know just about as much about it um as I possibly could, given those two guys came up with the idea to codify those tenants and put them out to the world. So now I feel like I've come along and I am a better voice for hunting. And I think that's what you're describing, right, That's what that's what you're describing. And also in my own life with one once I had children. I really is that I couldn't. My children are smart, perceptive little human beings, and they're gonna see me if I'm being disingenuous. They're gonna see the intimate moments of my life that would would relate to the disingenuous moments of my public life. And when I say public life, I just mean social media. Even if you don't have a podcast like I do or Clay does, they're going to connect the disingenuous statements I make in public with what they see in the garage after a deer hunt or what they see in the field after a deer hunt. So these are very personal things for me. I don't I didn't do them to prove anything to anybody. So I really do appreciate it on a personal level of the point you're making there, um, And that's that's the kind of reflection that I'd like to see when I look in the mirror, and I think all hunters probably should should when they look in the mirror. Um. And I want to just reiterate, and you said this, I said it earlier this this podcast and explaining these things and being passed about these things is not to elicit on us versus them mentality. If that's what you're picking up here, you're missing the point. The point is to get educated, is to do better, and then to communicate to these people firmly we disagree. And here is why. It's not to call them names. It's not to say San Francisco is this, or Senator Wiener is that. That's not the point. And again I'm just repeating a lot of what you said there, Clay, but I mean it truly is that, truly is the way forward in my view. And again, I'm gonna try to get Senator w Weener to come and talk to us. Um. I'm gonna call the H, S, U, S and and and see if I can't get those folks to talk to us. Um. I've got a lot of ideas about how to just just talk to these folks, including um getting really aggressive with that and go into where they are. And so that's part of it. But that's only that's only for this show and for me. But if if rewind the tape here and let's to what cladya said, and you'll have a good, a good road map on how to how to be a little bit better and how to understand these things. A little better. Let me just say this, Uh, if you want, you want to do something right now, go to Sports AND's Alliance and become a member. That's the first thing we've already said that. Write a letter and write that letter to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Write a letter to State Senator Wiener, write a letter to anyone really in the any representatives in the legislatures that are gonna here and see this bill, send it bill too. You can also join the California Chapter Backcut your hunters and anglers get involved. There a lot of good volunteer level folks that are doing good work. We're gonna talk to some representatives here pretty soon from Safari Club International about their stance on this. Probably next week or the week after. We're gonna get them on talk about this. UM, Western Bear found Ation, California Rifle and Pistol Association, all kinds of things you can do, UM, but the first thing you do if you haven't heard any of those groups, explore all of it, just like you listen to us and hopefully learned a few things and and gather some knowledge you didn't have prior. UM Again, we'll talk about it further on the show man. I feel like this is a cross section of all the things that we've talked about in two and a half three years of this program and all the things I've heard you say over the year's Clay, this is kind of a meeting point in nexus for all of of wildlife and habitat management in our North American model, and trophy hunting and animal rights, predator management, urbanization, the cultural divide in this country. All of that kind of is in this big poduct gumbo that is s B two fifty two in California. So, um, that's important. Any last any any final words on this, Clay, We're gonna we'll have you back from Regard the Gate. I can't imagine we won't be talking about this throughout the spring. But is there any anything you want to say from your end to kind of wrap it up? I think I've I've said it all. Just Guard the Gate Gate. Thanks for thanks for the conversation. Ben always appreciated Guard the Gate. That's it. That's all another episode in the books. Thank you to Clay Newcombe, thank you to all of you for writing in Jesse g Hey, listen, I'm recording this after something crazy happened last night. We're getting ready to post this episode, put it out there on Tuesday morning, leg normal and in about seven o'clock last night here we learned that California State Senator Scott Wiener in his office had dropped Senate Bill two fifth too in California to end bear hunting in the States. He's a bit of a shocker. It was something that we did not expect. We expected a battle of fight. We expected to have to educate, We expected to come up with a lot of opposition as this went forward. But now I'm sitting here us early in the morning last night we learned of this news. I called State Senator Oener's office and talked to one of his representatives, who did confirm with me that because of the COVID pandemic, they said an urgent need to address the code pandemic. Wiener believed this isn't the time to focus on this right now was his quote. Um, this is only comes one week after the bill was introduced and it didn't even make it to committee. We had met her. We talked to Roy Griffith, who's a retired assistant chief Warden for the California Department of fish and wildlife. He said that it's likely this negative attention brought on by by this podcast by Meat Eater, by other publications and concert with a changed out organ petition led the senator back office plans. Now, obviously we don't know that the official position is is COVID nineteen was to blame for the killing of this bill, but we know that that probably nothing changed from seven or eight days ago till now with the COVID nineteen challenges UM and Senator Wiener's county there in San Francisco County, so it's safe to say that he met some opposition that maybe he wasn't ready for. Talked to Brian Lynn, who, as we mentioned the podcast, the VP of Communications and Marketing for Sports and Alliance. He said the honey community and conservation community undoubtedly had an impact on the early death of this legislation. He said, quote, if there wasn't any pushback, SP two fifty two would likely still be going forward. It was great to see so many people in groups and a unified voice pushing back against a shortsighted and dangerous piece of legislation. This is great, This is this is not only what we wanted to see it's more than that. It sends a message to any state. It sends a message to anyone who thinks that they can introduce legislation to band hunting that maybe uh may feel right in their their district, their's county, that is not right for a country and not right for their state, that it is going to be a tough road to get those things past. Do not everyone out there who took part in this, everyone out there who wrote in, do not think this is a small thing. It is not a small thing. And Sports was Alliance shared something the last night, late last night after we recorded that, I wanted to read to you, and this is a quote from Wayne Poselli back in He made this quote in Full Cry magazine and he's the former CEO of pretty famous animal rights activist and former CEO of the Humane Society United States hs US Fund for Animals. He basically created a large anti hunting organizations in the world. And he said this quote, We are going to use the ballot box and the democratic process to stop all hunting in the United States. We will take it species by species until all hunting is stopped in California, then we take it state by state. That's a pretty sobering thing, you know, And as we talked about in the podcast that we recorded yesterday, this is something that we're not going to fall into the trap of us versus them. But that all that being said, it's important to stand up for what we believe in, and it's important to be clear how strongly we believe in it. Um Certainly there are folks like Wayne p Selli out there that stand against what we believe. So we'll continue to stand up and we'll continue to speak what we believe to be the truth and the facts of the situation respectfully, and we will continue to come across the table two anti hunters and ana rights activists and talk to them and expressed to them that we do have more similarities to them, we probably do differences and see where we get here on the Hunting Collective. A little bit of a different ending than we all thought, but the ending we all wanted. I'm excited. Congratulations to all of you that took part in this, and this is a different ending, but a better one. So we'll see you next week on the Hunting Collective. Say by Phil always not there, you know, because I can't go a week without doing right, can break it out of I'm to wing it wrong. Drink it in heaven.

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