00:00:12 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an all day. Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I'm Ben O'Brien. I'm talking to you from the past, well in the past. This is the best of part two. I'm talking to you before the Christmas break. You're listening to this in the New Year. Hopefully nothing is frozen over. Hell especially it's not frozen over, and we're still moving forward in time. Phil and I are are still hungover from conceptually hungover from New Year's Eve, and so this is gonna be a slower show and that's why it's best. Up. Phil, Are you feeling okay over there? But yeah, I'm doing okay. Well, Like like you said, this is we're recording this in the past. Um, but I I'm just gonna imagine my elf his future fill right now. Um. I'm sure I just took several tums after drinking way too much eggnog the night the night before, leftover eggnog from Christmas because I'm the only one in the family who drinks the eggnog. But I make a large batch anyway. Um, and I'm happy with that decision. Good. I'm glad I will have I'll still have that chapain headache about three days later. It's probably where I'll be at and the kids will still be screaming and running around, and I'll still be laying on the floor, face down, put my putting my face in the cool, cool rug, hoping no one jumps on my back and starts to try to wrestle me, especially a little little people. So anyway, that's where we are right now, in the future, but where we're gonna be in the present, which is also in the future. Does that make sense, Hill? Yeah? Perfect, in the future, but in the present also in the future. Is we're gonna I'm sorry, I was gonna say it's a Christopher Nolan movie. Yeah, this is an inception. You're about to get incepted cult You're going back in time to go forward in time. Uh, in the future. So what we're gonna do and this beautiful episode is we're gonna go through some of our favorite moments in the field and we're gonna listen to some moments we love and we're gonna talk about them, examine them, and um, we're gonna get you through a nice, easy going post holiday podcast. Is gonna be a year of change for us, isn't it. You're gonna be a hunter? Uh? Not so sharp moments are probably gonna be gone. We've heard enough of those. We might even I think we might even pick some new music, h new segments. We got Clay Newcomb coming on for a segment. We've got asked the Eagle with the honest tell us, we're gonna be sprucing up your thh C this beautiful new year. In an effort to to keep you excited and keep you in the Cult're gonna give you some fresh, cool aid, ice down, refreshing, fill anything you're looking forward to this year. But a vaccine in both going hunting, going hunt thing is the answer. Yeah, yeah, going hunting specifically. Yes, we want to announce in this episode that Phil is gonna go hunting next this year, and we're gonna go turkey hunting. Okay, Phil ready for that? Yes I am. It's like the sixth time on air we've made a plan. At this time, we're sticking to it. I mean, if it doesn't happen now, people, no one's going to believe the thing you say. I don't know why they do at this point anyway. But what we're gonna do is we're gonna reintroduce you to some of the characters we love so much from last year. We're gonna take you in the field for some moments that I enjoyed and hope you enjoyed listening to, and we did last year. You know, Phil it fills a sound engineer, he's the master of the audio arts, and I gave him, you know, a lot of a lot of water colors to paint with. You know, he's Bob Ross and that ship last year. And so the first thing we're gonna do is run you through some of the moments in the field where we captured some of the audio of me hunting in the field or going out in the field someone. And we got a good lineup. We got rabbit hunting with Charles, Roddy and Maryland from last February. We got gator hunting with the Landry crew from last September, and then from August we have Yellowstone tracking around Yellowstone hunting for predators. Dr Dan Staylor over there east of Bowsman, not too far. So we went out in the field for these three big episodes of the show, and it was a it was a chance for Phil, a man of the audio Master of the universe to flex his muscle fields. Did you feel like you did a good job on these episodes? You're feeling really good about the audio mastery that you've you've turned in here. I don't know why you're turning this into the Phil Show. And it was you who traveled to all these places and did the work. But you know, I appreciate it. I just I did my job, and you you did all the You did all the stuff that matters. Yeah, but I got some good victuals out of it. I got some good adventures, some good memories, and all you had to do was your up. So next year we're gonna get you out in the field with us to experience some of this cool stuff. So first off, we're gonna return to chester Town, Maryland with my buddy Charles the rabbit Man Rodney. One of the most pleasing hunts to the years. You're ever gonna go on barking dogs, Charles Rodney, yelling at his dogs, me yelling at Charles Rodney, him saying dead rabbit, and all the other beautiful things that come out of that man's mouth. You're gonna hear him because we're gonna join our hunt on the Eastern Shore of Maryland with Charles the Rabbit Man Rodney relive some rabbit hunt a book shot rabbit up, Bozo this blue. This is Hank the beat so and it's just Sam. Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Hunting Collective. I've been O'Brien and I'm out hunting in the field right now with Charles Roddy and walking through an open field and the eastern shore of Maryland behind some six beagles looking for rabbits. You hear Charles in the background imploring his dogs to find him. We might have one right here. That's a pretty looking thicket right there. How many We got three rabbits, Charles. We've been hunting for about an hour and a half. We got three, so that ain't bad. So you're gonna hear the sounds of sights and sounds of rabbit hunting from the field. It's so stay tuned. We're going after him. We got one up, We got one up. What you got him? I got dead rabbit, dead rabbit. Yeah, it's shooting right here. Dead rabbit. Come on, boys, come only get him. I saw a leaf, Loue, and I look and I saw him move again, but he went back in. It wasn't the dog because I did that. And then all of a sudden the third time he come on all of day. You shot him right here, didn't you, Sir? They give me a dead rabbit. You want to picture of him, Jeffrey, bring him up has so we can get a picture. Yeah, he was sitting right on the edge. So I was just interviewing Charles a little bit filming on my phone, and a rabbit jump pretty much right from out under Charles's feet. Didn't he about two feet away while we were talking? You just never know he was sitting here. I was just telling being what kind of cover we need in this one sitting in the open. Once you start making some noise with the shots and the dogs running, these rabbits gets spooked up. So they could be sitting anywhere. This must be the motel for rabbits. Yeah, we can just we could have somebody to stand here and block Charles, what kind of uh bark are you listening for? These dogs? A certain type of bark, certain type of expression. I'm kind of looking for a continuous bark, kind of a little bit more exciting when the scent get real hot, they get more excited. All of them are not barking now, So that means that that rabbit could have gotten up earlier. It could have been an older scent that still can They can still smell. So I'm looking for an intense clothes barking. When you get up and they get hot on him, they get really excited. Cold trail now a little bit cool. Yeah, it's they're on cold trail. But that rabbit got up earlier. I'm gonna call him back this way so we can go on that side of the creek brush. Yeah yeah, come on there, Yeah, come on there, Yeah, come on, Hank, come on, blue rattler. Let's Sam, come on, balls out buck shot. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, come on there, come on there. Yeah yeah yeah, it's r out here hunting. Phil. This is your grandfather's place, your family's place. But as you were a kid, this is where your grandfather lived, and you spent a lot of time kicking rabbits out of the brush out here, didn't You did not like this, but we did. We killed a few rabbits. We were saying earlier and four we were talking last night over some bud lights that uh there's rabbit hunting, then there's rabbit hunt with Charles Rodney. Wholly different, wholly different experience, different experience. When we were running with him. And how many dogs we have, Charles, how many we have out here? Dogs? Six dogs? Yeah, this is a completely different program. He's right in here. You out the top bend, Come boys there, see him. I took two shots out him. I was behind and though he's in here, got him, dad rabbit. He must have been wounded, thank god. Yeah, where was he here? Boys? Hey? Boys, come out here, boys, you missed it? See you miss you? Who slam right? Give me your boys here, boys, come to your boys. Stop. He just stopped. He could jump right out from under my feet and ran right through some brush. Come here. Let him know that my shot was only for a warning. Good rabbit, Good boys, good boys, good shooting. Grabbing number four on the ground. Yeah, that guy, he jumped right from under my feet. Come on, I chased him. He came. He came pretty fast. He ran here, stopped and then took off again. He jumped right under here, and I smoked him. My shot was only for appearances, Charles. I basically shot a I shot a bush. I don't know. It was a good bush. It's one of the better looking bush I've ever shot. Boone and Crockett bush. All right, Charles, do you give us a hunt update? How are we doing? How do you feel like we're doing? I think we're doing pretty good. We got three right quick. It slowed down a little bit and we had our best run of the day. A long circlar eggshall rout and he was about thirty yards from where he got up. And all the time rabbits make that circle and they go back to where they get up. This one was heading back that way. But brother phield won made one shot and in the death they call him one shot. Whon, Yeah, for a good reason. Now we're getting it, Charles. Why is there something like the deep like the deep sound the dogs respond to? Or is it loud and assertive? What's is there a type of tone they like better than another? No, they know which dog gets the true bar. They know each other's bar. Dog rattling, They got that deep voice. But they know when each when each voice is true, and that rabbit is rolling. And because as you know, a couple of times and one dog might give one or two little barks they don't go to it, but when they give a certain bark, they know the sin is hotting it up and it's time to join in. Well, what about you when you're commanding him, do you use the deep voice? I just whatever voice I feel it's necessary. Now, when I'm just telling to get in, I'll just tell him find them, get in there. But if I see the rabbit like that and calling them where Jeffrey, just call him. Yeah, I need to call him with yeah, yeah, yeah, I got fast like that fast. And sometimes I run a little bit. They see me running, they run, and when I get close to where the sin is, I point down and they put their nose down and they pick it up. See Blue picked it up first. Yeah. When I went down to hill, Lew was on the on the rabbit. Well, here's Charles Rodney, who how he's hunted this far many times? Right? He couldn't count that he's hunted this far many times. And if you're active, right, and you're seeing the landscape every couple of times a year, at the same time of year, right, the same seasonality, he could probably call out every little corner of this and what's changed. He's like this used to be a lot of but you know some of other worries. I've gotten the thick where it's got enough. But yeah, I mean, who else would notice that a little intricate detail like that used to be a lot thicker now, Charles Rodney, tell me you tell everybody out there about that shot. I just made like, what kind of sporting man am I? Well, folks, I'm gonna give it to the man from Montana. He was standing there. The dogs was pushing. They pushed him in the bars in the bottom. Jeffer and I were standing. He turned, he went back in some weeds, some brown weeds which makes it hard to see, and I could see Ben and he moved over about oh about maybe ten ft. He said, I'm gonna cover this area. And the dogs was pushing him straight and he peeled off one shot head shot, cut, cut the head right in half. Good, good, safe shot. So we ended that long. It was a long chase. They jumped him on the other side of a of what we call a sloop way. It kind of the land, kind of slopes with some water running in it, a deep ravine with water, and they ran him around and around, and he went in the weeds and that's where we killed. Dogs stayed on him, and about three deer got up in front of the dogs. These dogs do not chase the deer. They will not. They stayed right on that rabbit. They went back. They live. That rabbit must across this road three or four times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, come on, yeah, yeah, come on. She going out here, you go, here, you go here. Couple of them grabbing number six, grabbing number six, Charles. That's it. Tell us a story. You got he got us, We escaped, kicked him up, he ran, we shot, We thought we had him. He got up, ran in some high brown grass and made a turn to come back, and I was waiting on him, and the dog pushed him hard and fast and put him on a nice size, big rab That's a good rather when we go number six, Charles, Well, wrap up the morning hunt. What do you think? I think this was an excellent hunt. We got eight eight rabbits. Uh. We had some real nice long runs through thick briars, up and downhill, in a gully and uh, in a little bit of water and marsh. The dogs come back all the money, but they still they still gave that extra and uh, it's warm and they'll hunt some more. So I think eight is excellent. I do. I'm a little tired after that last run there. Yeah, that last run worked us. We had to make some long shots, but he wouldn't quit. He ran with two back broke legs. He ran under some cut timbers on the ground and the dog pulled him up. That was good. Well, we're done in the field for this morning. So next time we're gonna hear from us, probably we're gonna be in the kitchen, maybe cooking, drinking, podcasting. So uh, we'll see you right in a minute, Phil, Maybe that could that be your first time? If do you want to go on a rabbit hunt with Charles Rodney for your first ever adventure outside? Not particularly. I don't think that would be a good first time, do you? I think it would? I think it would. What what what turns you off about it? I don't know. I mean, I guess there's no reason for it to turn me off. It just seems kind of out of left field for a first time at least, I don't know. Maybe maybe I'm way off base here. I think you might be delicious, table fair, wonderful company, you know, a casual, but but you know, athletic hunt, you still gotta get up and down a little bit, but it's not like you only have one tag. The dogs are fun to watch do their job. You get to bust some brush, you get to wear a cool vest with a pouch in the back, all the things. It's a wheeled, a shotgun, all the things you'd ever want to do. So I do want to our friend Charles rodney Man. He is one of the best. One of the things about this show that I have loved the most is highlighting guys like Charles Um. He really is one of my favorite people on the on the planet Earth. I probably said that a bunch of times on the show, and so I thank Charles, his wife Judy and their family for letting me come rab a Hunton and up next little gator hunting Phil. This is definitely not the first time you're gonna want to go on this gator hunt with the Landry crew is gnarly to them. It's normal to to Jacob Landry, Troy Landry and their family, this is very normal and it's kind of like a family affair, you know, you like you take your family out to do things. You know, maybe you go to the store. Maybe you go to church, maybe you go on a hike, maybe you go whatever, a kind of normal fanfare family things that you do. If that's what the Landrys do. But they pulled giant twelve foot gators out of the water on a hook with rotten chicken and then throw the shoot those gators between the eyes and throw them in the boat. And I've been out multiple times where it's father, sons and not in these these kids are like three and six maybe oh husband, wife and two sons in a boat traveling around to buy you shooting gators between the eyes. And that's like the nice Sunday day as a family. So um so, Phil, that's it's a little bit different than what your Sunday family traditions probably are. You'd ship you got some you got some secrets over there. Anyway, let's travel. You know, this is the best of when me and Phil are just like packing it in. Man, We're just trying to get this done for you, doing our best. We're just doing our best. So now enjoy a little time with the Landry crew and the gators. Jacob war and what Lake Verrette we said outside of Pier Park, Louisiana with the Swamp People themselves, Jacob Ridge, Moose, Lindsay, Troy Landry, and we're after gators. I don't have much say other than it's exciting, so you're gonna have to stay tuned. But Jacob, here what twelfth season of the History Channels Swamp People twelve. That's gotta be the longest running show on that channel or maybe any cable channel, millions of people watching you guys on gators for over a decade. So we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna try to get some gators in the boat everything and then some here to buy. We're not gonna try, We're gonna no trying. We're gonna get a wet at all. Right, Jacob tell us where we are right now. Right now, we're fishing on Lake Barette, just close to our hometown. It's a pretty big lake, a lot of big alligators and you can't ask for a better scenery it in This is nothing but big cypress trees for the Spanish moss all along the edges of it, and it's been known to produce the big alligators. But as you can hear, there's a lot of stumps, so you gotta be careful as you're passing on the edge. I don't know if we got one here. Now take the next ones up. You remember, do you remember the first time you got your son Rich here? He's nine, Rich, say hi, Hi? Remember the first time you went out of your dad's Troy. I probably don't remember exactly the first time I would look at that nice one swimming straight acro away from our beat. Yeah, that's a good one. I really don't remember, because I was probably too young to remember. My dad used to put me on his shoulders and take me in the woods and take me in the boat and out a little bitty But uh, I do remember being little and going out there, that's for sure. I had a lot of good times. We used to rabbit hunt a lot. He just to always take me rabbit hunting and carry me on the shoulders and sitting there on a stump, coming up on a bait that we hung yesterday. I do not see the line. Why I see lines straight in the water. Yeah, it looks like slack. There's plenty of gators around, but not on our hooks. Got one, Troy? Oh God, get him? What I'm talking a bud? Good night? Good right there? Oh yeah, I think you Gator number two of the day. Gator number two, number two. We want to look all were sure about it? Line put the end of the women when we got back down, but now were on the line moose, You got any comments? Right? Do you have any commentary? No? Okay, we'll come back to you later. What color is an alligator? Wow? Oh I don't know. There girl, you got there? A band of may in. He felt big when he's dropped them. He's a vegetarian. Movie salt, Yeah, a little slack it a little shack, yeahs hard, body goes pretty. Yeah. Shoot like this, Troy, it feels like old times. I'm just waiting. I might jump in right. That's the hardest part where Troy makes funny. If you can't get the gator in the right over, it's the big gator boat. We got all the big gators in this boat. No wonder you're bob, because every road has all the weight by alliator. It's gonna fight us a recorder. Yeah, yeah, why don't you hold this? Lindsey's gonna hold the microphone while I try to kill But I got just pointed towards us foot Atnjamin. Hey, are you gonna be all right, my rich from fighting him. You want to go and fight him, bron come home from Mr bend down on that day the whole rich old him, bro hold him, let me go, Bubba you got Bubba on, let me go right at me A good shock, that's a doz got him. I'm all wet. Take that, buddies on save Oh yeah, what they don't tell you about gator hunting? As the gators come into boat with you when you're done with them, they don't there's nowhere else to put them. What do you think, rich? How big is this one? About? Seven? What do you think most? Five? Five f So now, Jacob, we're gonna tag him, tagging and make him legal beagle Bubba cutter read and do you all right? What do we got got one? He's tangled up in six footer's tangled up. You gotta grab this rope. You're gonna help me, Ridge Redge gonna shoot him. Jacob's gonna fight him. You're all wrapped up in a stick. I mean the number. That's what's bad about the little ones over the right safety busting Gussin got him, bust them a little gustin watch us on? Fine, but I don't safe. I'm safe. Keep the barrel pointed up. We'll done straight up. Not at Mr Bere He's good. Just go at them all right, Dy John, I'm gonna put another hook and another bait. Ridge. You don't like the bait, you don't like the rotten chicken. I don't blame you. I don't blame you. It's not great. How many gators do you think, like you had to count in Lake for ret, why do you think gator numbers would be hundreds? Hundreds? I really don't know what the thing is like right now. You see, the water just came up close to two ft, so now all the little slips that go back into the swamp, the gators go back in there. Now, right before the hurricane, the water was super low, so everything that all the swamps was all drained out dry, so everything was in the lake feeding that people were seeing big alligators left and right now, if they're still out here, I don't know, you know, they might they might be, but a lot of them will go back in that swamping how get away from the boat traffic. I imagine, i'mlike, you know, elk dear, it's impossible to know how many gators are in them that little simple vibration of the boat. They'll going and how you do nothing like to stick around? All right, Jacob, how many gators we got so far? We gotta count them up. It looks like we got about six decent ones in the boat, all around six seven eight foot good average. But we're looking for that granddaddy. You're gonna make it all worthwhile. Yeah, you think if you feel like you're doing, we're doing better than your dad. Are we losing out? Ah, we're doing pretty decent for the few lines we ran so far. This line looks kind of tight going towards the bank. So those the lines we said yesterday, and all our lines have either had a gate or at some point. Yeah, nothing's left left hanging. So that's a good challenge. And it takes a couple of days. You know, you catch a couple of small ones and get them out the way before you catch them big ones. So not too bad. Let's check it out. What happened, Jacob, the table about half the lines we said yesterday and we got a little Yeah, unfortunately, this is a really good area of alligators. It's a little nub right off the lake and he's big alligators love to come hot in here, get away from the boat traffic and all. And we've been here in reports of a good gate in here, and so we put one to four lines right here in one little bit of circle, hoping that we'd get them. And sure enough we got here, our branches broke. The rope is burned into the tree, and the into the line is popped. He got off and then he was on a tree that gills that flexus. So that just goes to show you how big and powerful he actually hugged that rope into the branch and it is currently imbedded into into that branch. You can tell he was fighting hard, ready to go kill the motor, and then he just popped up in the middle of the boy. Let's see how if he comes back up. I don't know. Can you get shots at him just an open water like that? Yeah, if we got a big gun, we'll bring like a only three or I'm seventy or something like that too to shoot them on open water. I don't I don't typically like to try to shoot him with just a twenty two mag or seventeen, because you've got to hit them, I mean pretty much dead in Ida. Put him to stop put with that type of gun. There's such a difference once you see these things up close. There's such a difference between a six ft or eight ft or ten ft or twelve foot or I mean there. Once they get to be eleven feet ten ft, they're just a completely different animal. Yeah, And unfortunately the big ones be smart. They just like gear and everything else. Once you get them once, they kind of get smart to it, and the chances of catching them again, it's it's always possible. We've called them again, but they just know now, they know what chicken tastes like. It just goes to show you it might be fishing, but it's not always catching, that's for sure. We're pushing through last couple of lines a check and you just briefly stop and take in a lot of this. Man. There's osprays and egrets and pelicans, Spanish moss and cypress trees, gators everywhere. It is a wild place. And to buy here what we got on here, that's the biggest one of the days, A big one, big daddy do right here, buddy, Yeah, boy, yeah, that's a big h Yeah. You don't want to come up and knows he's in troubles. He's in trouble. Read John him. Watch your fingers through big boy him. Whenever you read budding, I'm ready perfect. I don't get a note one, you know, hold on, what's a big one? I'm telling it. He's beenna. Get ready the job, I shoot job buddy. All right, now, we gotta get him in the boat. We're gonna pull that off. Fig that out. We'll fig that out of b biggest gator of the day. Ridge, alright, Ridge and Jacob, we how big alligat do you think that is? Ah, he's gonna be coached. Eleven foot he's long, but he's skinny, but he's a big one. Look his teeth, how big and blunt. You can test the old alligator. We're talking about this before he said they can get up to hundred years old. I mean it's hard to say. It's hard to know, but Asian by their teeth, I'm sure. But you figure that one's been around quite some time. Oh, that one's been around a good fifty sixty years for sure. I mean you can just look at him. He's old. He's by looking at the slime on his back. He's been in the swamp for quite a while he just came out because the water got so low, and he's a good one. I didn't think we had anything here either, so that was a that was a nice little surprise when he pulled back. Well, we're gonna call it for the morning and we're gonna go back. What are we having for for lunch over there? We got a little crawfish do fried alligator, fried frogs. Ridge is gonna bake us some brownies and cookies when we get back. It's gonna be good. Thanks for joining us in the field. We're gonna go have some food and then we're gonna sit down with Jacob and Mr Troy Landry. Keep this podcast going. We'll see you then. Now we're back at Duffy's Gas Station. Here Pierre part the famous Duffies where each time Troy Landry Jacob Landry return from gator trip, especially on Sundays, people gather locals, people all the way from Canada, people from around this country gather at a tiny, little rusty gas station in the middle of nowhere to Louisiana. Right now, those about thirty five forty people, babies, infants, eighty year olds, mom's, dad's, little kids, all lined up to shake Troy Landrew's hand and to see the gators they brought in. So we got about sixteen gators and Troy's boat, ten gators in our boat, in all of the six hundred some tags they'll fill this year. And it's a bit of a party here right now. Six ft six one good rich one to six to six two zero three six five. He was, how long you've been bringing gators back to Duffy's. No, then I want to remember I'm getting Conna get go boys that I agreed right there when we would first started. Brain do you ever think that this many people would come and see this everything? And Jane, I think we're that virus this year. You really have got weird, more people than dish. But I think people are character come around with that Corona bolish. How many gas you guys go through? I don't know it. I really don't do it, but I guess fifteen you're pointing, you poundered him, cap your camp with your calm, pointing five, we're gone. And then we had about a dozen more long, but I was scared, just still in your league. It was getting rough, getting rough out there. There are people here from all over the country. There's even a mother that wants to get her newborn babies picture taken with a gator. They're setting up a photo right now that says when the baby was born, and the baby's maybe three or four weeks old. As everybody gets. Everybody gathering at Duffy's. It's crazy. An our inside a giant, probably eight hundred square foot freezer with bins full of gators. Jacob Landry, you're driving a skit, st your palette, jack Onto into the freezer, gets a big scoop and then scoops ice into the bins of gators to keep them for sales later on. Giant giant pile of ice that will keep these gators cool until a buyer comes or a distributor combs to get them. It is a operation. It's not a hunting operation. It's not a guiding operation. It is an industrial operation. It looks like a fish market, smells like a fish market. This is definitely not North American model of wildlife conservation. This is definitely not hunting. This is market selling of gators by some people I really respect, and it is a full fledged operation. All right here we are. We're like a couple of substitute teachers playing old movies for you guys. We hungover, we went out to the club last night, and then this is what we're doing. This is what the Best Of is, and we are self aware here in the cult and we're willing to tell you the truth, unlike other podcasts that are controlled by the leftist media and Donald Trump. Right. Phil, Yes, sir, WHOA, We're really I love this show. Best of love it. Now we know where're gonna go next. You probably won't even believe where we're gonna go next, because we've already been in Louisiana, We've already been to Maryland. You're like, where could we go next? What could we do? How could this be more exciting? I know you're asking yourself that. Well, I'm gonna tell you. We're gonna go to Yellowstone National Park, the Jewel of the West, and we're going to go inside the belly of the Beast with Dr Dan Staylor. And you know what we're gonna do, Phil, We're gonna track down a marauding, murderous cougar that has killed seventeen uncults in the past two months. We're gonna figure out what the hell he's doing over there. And why with Dr Dan is that better? Feels that more exciting? Am I give him more intrigue for the listeners shaking in my boots, boom, go to Yellowstone. So Dan, we're overlooking gardener right, garden gardener montin. I always wonder if I'm in Wyoming. We are right now actually at straight down to our right, so we're hard to say if we're in right. Um Yea quickly describes it's like what we're looking at here, so we're looking at what we do is the gardener basin, Uh, the northern range of of yellow Stone, and uh it is one of the premier wintering areas for uh A large a lot of Yellowstone ungulates, um elk, you know, the hoofed animals, yelk, the prong horn, big corn, sheet mule deer, some white tailed deer, bison, of course. UH. And you're looking at it right here. We're in the heart and soul of it. And UH it's incredibly important part of this system. UH sustains a lot of the migratory herds that use this area and depend upon it on winter because of its lower elevation, less snowpack forage availability. UM. Of course, We're here in July, so we're looking at summer range starting to dry out. We've had some wet you know, pretty wet spring, but in early summer, but starting to get brown as it does. You know, got this little band of prong horn here, and this is you know where you see a lot of the prong horn summering in the wintertime, they'll also settle into these lowlands right here in front of us. But um, Yellowstone River of course cuts out of the park right there. Um, and that's the court of that migratory funnel for a lot of those uh les, particularly elk herd, the Northern elk herd kind of one of the most uh controversial, culturally significant elk herds in the region. Really always has been. It's always been a big source of debate. We'll talk about that later. But um, but yeah, it's quite a quite an area, is you know. I always think of this area sort of our you know, our American Serengetti. I live just across the way there. You can kind of see my house on the other side the valley above the town of Gardener there and uh, you know, it's not uncommon to look down and see you know, everything bison, prong horn, big horn, sheet deer, alcohol within your have you shed packs of wolves? Use these uh cougars? It's all cougar country. Do you ever feel like you're in a time machine? Absolutely? I mean childhood dream living in a place like this where you could go back in time and see what the landscape looked across our great country. Um, we've got a vignette of it right here. Yeah, this river just kind of can acts everything and brings everything together to stand here. And no, we're headed to a possible kill site for a mountain lion and see a fawn antelope and a couple of a couple of doughs by the looks of it. Um, this is you know, you never know what you're gonna see in Yellowstone, and you've kind of got back door pass I imagine. Absolutely feel very lucky to live here. Let's go see what we can find. We've got a coyote about what seventy yards He didn't even seem like he cares much about us. What's he doing? It looks like a younger coy out, maybe a yearling or something. He's a could be in this area because there's a carcass here we're not. We've got sixty yards from that cluster of that cougars kill site, and so he might be um lingering around. It could be just a good spot for him. But I just do them do a little scrape scent mark there not that far away, So he probably sees us, and maybe he's just curious. Of course, these guys in the park are and getting bullets lobbed at him, so a little bit more curious and a little more curious that he's get a little bit of a scrappy tail. There's summer coat and he goes trotting off. It looks like a young one. I mean, I know that there's an adversary relationship between wolves and yeah, if there's a mountain and kill site today, they will they will kill coyotes and they'll eat them. Unlike wolves, wolves just kill him to kind of get him out of the picture. Cougars will actually feed on him and it's typically is a round to kill site. They're not actively hunting him, but they're opportunistic. Of course, you can hear ground squirrels right now around us, so he's probably hunting ground squirrels. Yeah, he does. It's so interesting to be in a place like this and to see a cayer that normally if he was living on a ranch down in the valley be gone, gone, be gone, or he'd be gone it is yeah, yeah, exactly, you know site that is so what we're doing here, Ben is we've got um oh maybe ten or so GPS points that were logged by the caller that this male lion wears his number M two twenty. We collared him this winner. Um. We actually called him out by tower falls. So it's a good twenty someone miles um to the south of us here, and uh, that was probably the core of his winter range. It was about I think we aged him about three and a half four years of age. It's been a hundred and forty pounds um. And you know that's a younger Tom here. He's stuck around this summer. So we've seen too in our population have right now, um, a bunch of younger males coming into this area. We did catch just the other day over on that cliff band and back of us a big, old, gnarly scarred up um mature Tom and one of our remote cameras. So he's probably the king around here. But these younger males are coming in and sorting out where they might slip in and establish a territory. And this male cougar we've been following the last sixty some odd days for predation work. Um, he's ranged everywhere from here out to about fifteen twenty miles that way down into the Yellowstone River quarter and the Black Canyon of the Yellowstone which is up and over that right behind us. UM, and he's just been looping around here for summer, making his kills, making his living, and established maybe his territory. Um. And this is the last cluster of our predation sequence. So uh, Ultimately the objective of this work has been to understand cougar food habits and predation patterns and kill rate. You know, how often are they killing? What are they feeding on? Uh? And that feeds into our long term monitoring. That then we can more accurately understand what role do cougars play here and Nilo Stone Well, I mean too, you know how many cluster sites like this will you visit on a single line in that time? Yeah? And over that sixty days? This is a guess without looking at the numbers, I think a couple of hundred clusters we've searched some clusters. You know, we run the data that Basically the way these GPS callers work is they um last about two years based on how we have a programmed that's dictated by the battery life of the caller. It is getting a fix every hour UM, around the clock UM and it uploads the data via a satellite that we can access on the computer so we can check in. It's not real time, but it's usually lags by twelve to twenty four hours. What we do is we wait for a better week's worth of data to to accumulate. Then we run it through a uh what we call a cluster model that basically identifies any cluster where you have two points GPS points within two of one another and within six days. So what's beautiful about this technology to study predation cougars is when a cougar makes a kill, you know that you tend to cash it and if they're not displaced by a bear pack of wolves, they will tend to stay on it for several days until it's used up. Of course, that depends on the size. If it's a small newborn faun, they might only be there for half a day before it's gone. If it's a you know, an adult cow out, they might be there for four or five days. And but cougar clusters are usually really or kills are easy to identify with cougars because once they make a cluster, they really kind of hone in on it once in a while, and particularly with males, they tend to be a little bit more exploratory and travel during kill events where they'll make a kill. For example, this male killed a couple of weeks ago an adult cow elk down below us here um, and he would go all the way during the day, travel all the way up oh a mile and a half that way to bed up in the cliffs, I mean just and for cougar there, they're all about concealing and being secretive, and that's a big part of their success, particularly in a lansk like a landscape like Yellowstone whe you get grizzly bears, black bears and wolves that are always trying to find food and they're easily easily can display cougars, and so he is, you know, his m has to get somewhere safe and secure out of sight um and males tend to do that. Sometimes males will also feed for a day and then do a big you know, travel for a day and then come back to a kill site. Females that make kills, female cougars tend to stick right there. Um. They also can get displaced of course too, and they have the whole risk if they've got kittens where there's a risk of mortality there if a pack of wolves or another cougar even or a black bear grizzly beer comes in. But um. But yeah, so a couple hundred clusters over the last sixty days. Uh, you know, I don't know how many kills. Again, I'd have to look and see how many of that is. But this male has been killing primarily elk um. Of course, this study was set up designed during the peak having period June first and Yelson. It's thought to be sort of our our major you know, pulse of of elk calves average um caving date. Some are born late May, some are you know, born the last couple of weeks even um, but usually around June one, and so we kind of set this up to understand what, you know, how many elk calves are getting. Um. So his diet has been i would say, primarily elk calves. But he's killed a couple of spike bowls, yearlings um bull elk he uh killed the mule deer phone last week newborn muleer phon um. You know, cougar diets pretty pretty varied. He really kind of depends what's available to them. But this time of the year, young of the year. Uh, fawns and calves are they're just easy, they're safer pray package for them to take down and handle and um and uh so yeah, that's kind of what we tend to find. It's not a bad place for cougar to live, No, not at all. It's gorgeous right here, and they have access to good hunting grounds, but also you know, good escape train very much part of it. So we're so you think that it's possible from here, and we're in this patch of juniper and this looks like probably a bedsite up in here, and what we'll do and usually we can find hair where they bed. Um, there's enough points here and I don't just look at the map because they're kind of scattered. You get little bit of error from the GPS caller, but it looks like bulk of the points are just through here. But well, I think that's the beach light there will come to something that out. Yea. So here we have elk calf. Yeah, um, imagine that newborn. You know, that's just what you would predict here. And this is pretty classic. I mean there's not much left right. You got what we're looking at here is the lower mandible and of course you can easily identify it's a calf because you don't have the teeth eruption. Um. Of course it's small too. It's only about four and a half inches long from the tip down through the mandible. And you can see where they they don't um, you know, they won't crunch up the teeth. That's just an indigestible, hard to chew and crunch up. Um. But and then we see the skull cap here, So that crunched right into the skull cap. Of course, the brain would be a you know, nutrient rich source of food for any meat eater. Um. And so they were quick to coot. Lion was quick to feed on that. And then we've got a front leg, the huff, the lower leg. But you can see, um, you know they've crunched through it. You know, cougar's jaw. I mean, they have a really powerful bite. Force. Uh. They have a short rosstrum, short jaw, big powerful muscles, master muscles that wrap around the outside of their fet heads and attached to the top of their skull and their teeth of course, their carnassial teeth or mowlers premolars top and bottom make that really powerful bite force. So they're pretty big bone crunchers and eaters. And they do get a lot of nutrients from that, both from the bone itself and from the marrow inside um. And this is pretty classic. You mean, you know, a cougar that kills an elk calf will leave typically about this behind, which is just a bunch of bone shards, the teeth, top, the skull, lower leg, everything. And what we'll do here is we'll look around and see if we see uh bear scott um my guesses, you know, with a smaller prey package like this. You know, this is an elk calf, probably born in the first couple of weeks of June or early June. And this was kill was made on June July six, so maybe it was about a month old. It was probably you know, bet it could have been at that stage where it was hiding and mom was off grazing and coming back to nurse. Or it could have just been taken down right here with this lion watching as a group of cows maybe filtered through in the evening or at night feeding through here. I'll look at the data. I think this cluster started in the middle of the night, which is more typical when cougars are out in the landscape hunting. They're active at night hunting, so you imagine that the calving grounds are here. It's like, maybe this helk was born in this little in this general area. Yeah, I mean a month old. It could have been born, you know, within a mile here, I would say, in this at this area. But um you know, at that first month of life, they're pretty they're pretty staying pretty close to where they were born unless mom wants to get up and move to summer range with it. Um uh. This gardener basin area is important cabin grounds for cow for sure. But what we'll do here is take a look and see if we see any saw. What I always trying to do is we try to determine is this cougar displaced by a larger carnivore and that would either be a black bear, grizzly or a Brett pack of wolves. Based on how long he was here in the size of this, I would say he probably got most of this. You'll get ravens and magpies, eagles sometimes that come in. But you know the specialty of cougars of of what they're known for his cashing and concealing their prey. And that's a real uh. It's an adaptation to really protect the food harder and food resources. You can see here on the edge of this thick patch of conifer. My guess is usually see a pile of grass where it was buried, and right here behind us um in the shaded area. Probably it was doubt it was back in here, I would guess maybe fed in right here. Plenty of shape concealment bone shards in here, so this is probably where he dragged it to feed on. And you can see where it perfectly concealed. You know, ravens and magpies will have a hard time finding this um. A little bit of tufts of hair there. This is the end of the scapula he chewed up. Um, so he would pull that cat back to here cash, Yeah, he might bury it. You know what we find with with calves is they it's a small enough a newborn calf is small enough that they might not necessarily cash it. They'll just start feeding on it. Certainly, with anything larger than an elk calf, they almost automatically begin cashing even before they feed, at least dragging to cover. So that's what that's what he did here. I don't see any Scott you know, this area could have a black guy there. I'm guessing he got most of the bottle math on this calf, which would be I don't know, a newborn elk calf is gonna you know, be twenty some off meat. Um so, good meal, good meal. Well how long would that satiate him for? Is he going to go, like you said, go off a couple of miles? Typically we fine, And this is again long term. I'm kind of giving you averages here, but just give you an idea an adult male cougar. Of course, with cougar life history, they don't play any role in feeding young. They're off on their own and they only associate with females to breed. Females are the caretaker, they're the hard working single mom. The males breathe the female. Usually in late and yellowstone in late winter, although female cougars could get bread any time of the year. They they cycle extracycle once every twenty eight days or so. UM. But we see a birthing pulse in May, June, and July in a place like Yellowstone because that's when a lot of foods out for moms. But a male like this typically will make a kill on average every seven to ten days. Of course, at all is dictated by the size of the prey package, as small el cap will sustain him for less time than a large animal. UM. I forget exactly when his last kill was. Oh, I do remembers. Yesterday we searched it. It was about four miles that way. It was a syealing bull elk and there was a lot of black bear scout around it. And he was only at that site for about fifteen hours. So my guess is what happened is he killed that was kicked off by a bear, came down here, made this kill a little more time here. So you're like c S. I most very much, very much. I mean, it's really the fun to come to these sites, look for the clues, look for the evidence, try to piece the story together. Of course, we have the old school field biology. I mean, biologists have been doing this with carnival research for uh, you know, fifty sixty seventy years. I mean you can go back to you know, our ancestors, you know, out there using the same techniques to try to piece together where prey was or where competitors like carnivores were. So we emplay those same tactics today, but we also benefit from the technology. I mean you see me I locked in here with the GPS in it, I had as GPS data loaded in here, we can come right to the site. Uh. It's a really powerful tool to get accurate data on what these animals are doing. And as you said it, to imagine it's from some people not as not as exciting as hunting, but incredibly important to our our general knowledge base on how predation happens, right absolutely. I mean there's so uh so many opinions and thoughts about what carnivores are doing and how they hunt and how they feed and what inpics they have, and we all have those opinions, um and I think what we as scientists really cherish is having you know, data right to to really critically evaluate it and truly understand what's going on, um, you know, without without you know, cougars are a great example in Yellowstone. You know, in the last twenty five years wolves have come back, right, and that was a huge UH conservation success story. It was very controversial it is to this day. Um. And and but I think what we've really learned is having really good information about what role and animal like a wolf or cougar has helps us better understand how to either whether we want to manage them, whether we don't want to manage them, like in a place like Yellowstone, where we just step back and let nature take its course. We don't have the luxury of having protective preserves around our country like Yellowstone. So those of us that live in this area and hunt and fish and enjoy the landscape and our public lands and and um, we to coexist with all these animals, whether they're elk or cougars, and and you know, the more understanding we have of them, the better we are at living with them and protecting them, and um, understanding what impacts we have on them and what our activities as humans have. So it's saft feeds into that. It's really incredibly important. And you're definitely kind of at the you know kind of the nexus of we as Americans are drawn to these charismatic predators. We can explore that all day long, but we're definitely drawn to them. Some people are drawn to them in a more sympathetic way, some people in a more logical way, and more pragmatic way. Some people um based on you know, a lot of hunters. As we were talking about walking up here, a lot of hunters are drawn to them from the propaganda of you know, the last century where we needed to kill them all and displace them so we could ranch and live in relative without you know, bears and cougars killing our killing our calves and killing our holes and killing our profits. So it's you kind of sit at this strange you know nexus of all those things happening together and they all have influence. Hey, we're back from Yellowstone. What a lovely trip, Phil. It's nice this time of the year. Dead, the dead cold, you can't even breathe. Um. We got a lot of other things to do. So that's that wraps up our in the field segment. But we really look forward to doing more in the field stuff next year, specifically Turkey season. I got a lot of plans for Turkey season. Wanted to take he has in the field with us and shoots them some Godlers in the face and hopefully we can coax fill the engineer and other friends along the way for that. In one. Now, there's some important moments in our lives that we will never forget. Some things that we did in one that will move us along into the future. And one of those things was Phil ready for this. And this was a controversy between Phil and I. We had a big argument about this. We almost came to fisticuffs, camels, came to lows over this, and it was burying the hatchet with Dr Barry Gilbert, burying the hatchet with our buddy Dr Barry Gilbert and Phil, can you just tell people, just recap that you really didn't want this to happen. You're pushing it kind of far, I think, Uh. I mean, Barry sent us a book afterwards. He's he's been he's been very generous. Um. I At the time, I just said that I didn't think we would be making we would make any headway, any progress. Um. But I think I think I was mostly wrong. Do you mostly wrong? Mostly wrong? I mean, we we knew the the ultimate argument to kill bears or not kill bears with Barry was never going to be solved, but we could we could inch closer to just being friends with the guy now. And if people don't remember, Barry came on in twenty nineteen and it was the most contentious interview we've ever done. He yelled at me, he got mad because I didn't give him a hat uh. He wanted to storm out of the studio and we had an argument of sorts about whether or not the North American model of conservation was appropriate in terms of enacting it and killing and hunting bears of all of all shapes of size. So he it was. It was probably the most talked about episode of the show ever, and this year we felt the need to follow it up by giving Barry a call and talking it through with him. And so here is us baring the hatchet with Dr bear Berry. How are you, sir, doing okay? Enjoying summer or isolated on an island which is kind of nice. I'm doing a lot of swimming and sailing. So you tell me, people, tell us how the pandemic has been, How how the last few months has been for you and your family? Up there. Oh, pretty good. Actually we're at the low and the of the pandemic. Everybody's going around with masks on and h including going on our ferry or island. But I don't know anybody that's been positive how things. I noticed Montana's in pretty good shape. And going down to Yeah, it's been good. Were We were in the office for a while and then got shuffled out because things are on the rise. But now it seems like things are leveling out. So um, yeah we feel good in Montana, Phil, you feel pretty good. We got fill our engineer here. Say hi, say hi to Barry Hey Berry. How's it going? Yeah, I m hi. I Yeah, it's definitely. It's good to see a lot of people out out in masks around here. And um, it's a little less anxious than it used to be, which I think is good. People are just just moving moving on with their lives like they have to. So yeah, the border dan closed to stopped all chances of me going in Montana. I like to get down the Yellowstone and you know, I got a lot of friends sound that way. But well we can fly and if I want to go to Ottawa and fly to Bozeman, I can do that, but I'm I'm not sure I'll get back into Canada. We've had a few people come down from Canada, but it's a sketchy experience, one that you really want to have to come to Montana for. So we all, we definitely understand that. Well, are we glad we got you? Man um? As as I was saying over email, we there. There's there's not been a conversation that we've had on this show, and we've had hundreds, I mean hundreds of conversations over time that got as much commentary, as much conversation going as what we called a contentious interview with you back last year, and we talked about you all the time, you know, we it's it's such a the thing that we talked about, predation and bears is such an important thing. We've been talking to a lot of individuals about it. Um But also I think just how you know, what was said, how it was said, how everything ended up, everybody had a reaction to it, and so time has passed. Time has passed, and I all I wanted to do is have you on and chat about you know, what had happened. And yeah, I guess my first question is what was after you came in and we did the interview. What happened in your world? Um after we aired that thing? Uh not, not a whole lot. I had a couple of trolls that went on Amazon and dump shit on my book without you know, having seen it at all. They clearly were offended by me. One of the guys said, you know, I was old man that I didn't get enough attention and I wanted more attention. And he said, you can believe this, he said, so we get it. You had a bad day. Well, shift, I had a bad life after that there nailed me and I had two months in the hospital on my back, so it was little more in the bad day. But you know, I can see why people get cranked up. My My knowledge is limited to, you know, observing bears. I've had thousands of hours of doing it, and I challenge anybody that wants to take me on, say they've done more watching of theirs. But I'm kind of like an anthropologist watching a culture do its thing, so when it comes to you know, their attacks, and not an expert when it comes to population biology and modeling and how many bears there are. Uh, I only know what I read and and what's in the press. You know, I try to follow the Grizzly Bear Advisory Committee that your governor put up, but apparently it hasn't come out with any recommendationship. But they've got eighteen people on there. I imagine they got twenty two opinions. That's well. That's the beautiful thing about what we talked about is that it it does bring in so many different opinions. We went recently and visited Yellowstone Park National Park and we tracked some mountain lions with a predator biologist by the name of Dr Daniel Staylor. His perspective was was a beautiful one, a very tangible one. We just had a Dr Various skyst on last episode talked to him about his perspective. So we've been just trying to mind as many of these perspectives as we can, and they're it just I think it all shows that this is a complex issue. There's a lot going on, and it really gets people's tackles up. And we've also I'll tell you, Barry had a neurologist on neuroscientist on and talked about kind of you know, our brains are the psychology of why some people really loved predators or love grizzly bearris particularly, and why some people have of such a negative reaction to them. And so it's been interesting to learn over time how these things come about. So it's it's good to do that. Do you do you feel like the sociology of people's values and whether they're going to change? You know? I try pretty much. I've read enough to stay away from that because I don't have any illusions about or delusions about changing people's minds. I just had my experience, and that's what my book was about my thirty five or forty years experience with theirs. And at the end I try to take on some of politics and management because I'm offended that the conservation of theirs gets a dollar sign on it and the bears generally lose. But that's uh, that's just something that I've learned from experience in a national park. We all think that national parks are total protection for bears, but they're not protected from fast vehicles or trains, and nor than Montana and a whole bunch of things. In fact, if you look at national parks, I looked at them, and Jasper in Canada at one time and and Yellowstone and the death of bears from humans is equivalent to a hunting season. I mean, it's not like they're totally protected. And the same goes for wolves in UH in Denali Park. And then swered this in my book that one of the research biol is just there back in the guess was in the seventies told me every wolf pack in Denali Park UH is subjected to trapping because they reigned so widely, you know, and when they go outside the park, of course they get nailed. So so much for conservational wolves. Yeah, we were talking to Dr Geys last week. We talked a little. He his his ideas, Like the two competing ideas he presented were this idea of protectionism and you know that was connected to environmentalism, and then this idea of intelligent intervention on the wildlife management side, which which meant hunting other tools for managing predator populations. Be interested to hear you, you know what you think about that as we because like I said, we've do four or five shows or I've tried to present as many varying opinions. We have Chris derreman on later who also who tends to be on your side of things when it comes to bears. But can you do you have any thoughts about this protectionism versus intelligent intervention? Oh? Yeah. One of the one of the conundrums I think about is why we went some endangered status to desire to have a hunting season in the three three states around Yellowstone. It just seems to me a transition. Once you've got to the number small as it is, say seven hundred, eight hundred, six hundred bears, all of a sudden you have a hunting season on them. I mean, my impression from the media was that people couldn't wait to kill them, whether it's by hunting or let the ranchers nail them or shoot them from helicopters. So I I don't have much truck with trophy hunting. It isn't there isn't something to eat, although British Columbia tried to have a season in which you could kill a grizzly bear if you took the meat home, and to me, that's a backdoor approach to conservation. I just think there's so much interest. You know, Yellowstone isn't the only place that people go to observed. There's photographs and all those sort of things, you know, Teetohn Park, and then you go up the coast of British Columbia. There are thirty businesses on the coast alone that emphasize they're viewing as part of their trips, whether whale watching or you know, learning mammals in general. So I could see uh going to uh they're viewing. Now it's trickier and rockies. You have to find a you know, a burn with a big berry patch where there's are concentrating. If you're trying to run a business taking people to see grizzly there's Uh, it's tough to go and say South un we're gonna go and look at grizzly bears even in Yellowstone. That doesn't work. Yeah, that's the that's the problem with animal wild viewing in general. They don't they necessarily know they're being viewed or that somebody wants to view them. Can I ask you, um. Another thing that happened from the last show is people want to jump to the conclusion that you're fully anti hunting, that all hunting in your mind doesn't work. Can you kind of describe your your thoughts on maybe unglet hunting, hunting of deer and elk, and then hunting of a grizzly bear. Like what you just kind of throw that out there for everybody. Oh, I'm not anti hunting at all. Uh. I taught like management. I wouldn't have a job if I was andy hunting. I think half my students had rifles in their half tons. And one guy asked me we were going to Yellowstone in the winter. He says, it's okay if I bring my thirty thirty and my half tongue, I might see a deer on the way. I said, I don't think that's gonna work. But uh no, I think hunting is important to help. Dear you name the caraboo moose. That that gets a lot of people, uh interested in wildlife management. It's what how our country started. You know. Lewis and Clark shot just just under over a thousand antelope crossing crossing the country, so they couldn't have made it without granted that isn't permitted hunting, but they lived off the land, and there's still people Alaska that basically they're only protein is what they shoot or trapped or whatever. So I'm not I think hunting um pray Ungulus m is absolutely traditional, and I have nothing against it. When it comes to carnivores, I sometimes wonder um people with high powered rifles that sit in trees over sand and streams and shoot their twelve hundred yards. My daughter read something in my book and she says that it sounds like a search and destroying mission because the hunter isn't risking anything by sitting in a tree with a guide and some of them if the hunters jumping, the guide will shoot the there. So I I just don't see shooting grizzly. There go either the tel or a skull if you can keep the skull um. And my impression is both people don't have much use for learning about the bears, that is following and photographing them and spending time observing them. They want to and the coast of DC, you know, they fly in an aircraft. The guide out that takes them up for the half time on the logging road, takes them up to the stand and if they're lucky, they can shoot it there and he can be back watching potball and drinking there in the afternoon. Now that's hardly a wilderness trip. Hunting there is just to be a matter of going out for two weeks and doing a lot of trumping up and down mountains or up and down streams. Whatever it is. So here where I'm going, it's the technology that it takes it a bit out of the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's what we and we talk about that those ethics a lot here, fair chase, fair kill, different ideas I think, you know, especially in that last narvie too, people take umbrage to this idea that you know, we would generalize hunters or use a straw man of Yeah, maybe there there are plenty of asshole hunters out there. I'm sure plenty of people that do it. Um And you know, I've run into some people that in hunting camp where I I wasn't necessarily didn't necessarily feel like they had the same value system as I do. And you know, so there's no one here that's gonna say that it's a completely pure thing. But at the same time, those examples I feel are you know, rare and extreme, but they do happen, and so that's that's the balance. I think people that listen to the podcast would like to hear like, hey, look, conservation is complicated. Um, let's talk about what what are the examples of of this where this hunt works from a conservation element and then you can boil down kind of like the personal motivation because that's so varied and so impossible to nail down. Yeah, well, the gold standard is fair chase. You put out some effort, you take some risk yourself what you're hunting. Uh. Now, there isn't too much risk to a person at your hunting antelope on the prairies prong horn, but there's still you have to know a lot about the animal to get up on a prong horn, and even if you shoot it in the distance, it takes a whole lot of stocking to get within range. And you know, the nonfair chase. So they are the jerks that go out and see a herd of elk and start, uh you know, flock hunting or herd hunting. They just fire lead into the middle of a bunch of alc and hope that something clicks. To me, that's uh, you know, that's a matter of ethics and morality. Yeah, I mean, that's not something we except to promote here and and again I always people say those things to me. I've had other out a vegan, my friend of vegan philosopher by the name of Robert C. Jones, and he said, well, you're pretty thoughtful hunter. You feel like that's a rarity or the exception. I said, there's no way for for me to know. But I assume if I was a hardcore camper and somebody said, well, campers litter, I'd be like, yeah, those are not my campers. Those are you know, if there's somebody who's doing something illegal or extremely unethical, um, you know, no hunter or no hunting organization would would promote or accept that. So it's a that's a tough thing. I think that's a tough thing for listeners of this show to here, because we all know that that's that's just not a great thing reaction to received. Was that on your blog or was that just people calling you and you didn't record it. I had luck at the number of your blog sites and went on meat Eater, and I couldn't find any commentary about Oh, well, the post interview. I want to go over that a little bit. But the post on the instagram has hundred three or four hundred comments. Um, not that we need to revisit that right now. The post had a bunch of comments, and we get emails all the time, um about you know, emails of the place where I like to get most of my commentary because it seems to be the most rational, the most less free thumbing it as it would be a commentary online. But it was one of like that conversation. I think it was because of the contentious nature of it, because you know, there was upset moments in it. I think that's what drew people in. But they, like I said, the reason number one you said in this show. I don't know if you remember this. You said that you didn't get a hat. Remember that you didn't get it. You didn't get a hat for me. So I'm gonna send you. Me and Phil are gonna Me and Phil are going to sign a hat and send you a hat because we're burying the damn hatchet Burry Gilbert and send me the recipe for the salty Gilbert. Yes, and we're gonna send you that. But I should have called my jets earlier on. I think what happened with me is I I liked your set up there. I talked to the gals going in the front door, and I thought, doesn't be really neat to talk about my book on some of the issues in my book, and somehow we got off the rail in fact, hit the third rail, it seems, and uh, I just got pissed, and I apologize for that. But so there the hatchet is buried, No need to apologize it. I think it in the end, like in the end for me as I thought about that, and I said, we we talked about you a lot on this show. We we talked about you know, those moments, and it's it's essential to learn from them, and it's essential to say, Okay, what happened there? Was it? Was it? The conversation? Was it kind of just did it happen randomly? How can we make sure that when we have a disagreement, a conversation where we we know we're going to disagree, that we can work through and maybe we don't even find common ground, but maybe we still can can work through those you know, the feelings and emotions and try to get people to a point where some objective reasoning happened and people can walk away now. And there there can be a disagreement where people say we're just never going to agree on this, and we can move on from it and still learn something or other. Um, Well, and and the other point that I try to make with people is that your conversation has to be as complex as the issue is. A lot of people want to simplify it. And uh, you know, speaking of all guys, he has a a straightforward, uh wildlife management model that he likes to work everything. And to me, that's a little too simple. Now. It works for vow because he's always been a a goat and sheep and belk under. He knows a lot about them. He's written books on pronghorn and help and new Lease. But I just think I have a problem with that model being applied to all the carn bores. We if this isn't too hartial statement, we have the war going on against carnivores and some people anyway you kill them, Like look at Alaska. Now there they've just decided that they want to get rid of more carnivores with the wrong notion that they're going to get more caribou and moose hunting out of that. And that has both scientific basis whatsoever. I think um that kind of thinking by the board of game. And these aren't trolls, you know, these are people that clearly they're political, but they're responding, I think to the majority of hunters who believe that if you have every day you killed, you saved all of game that they're going to eat. And we tried that with salmon at one time. The first Clonedia government in the fifties have people with high powered guns on government boats out shooting sea lions because they believed the sea lions were reducing the salmon. And of course it was over fishing and too many canaries and all that, and they decimated the salmon for a long time, but they decided to take it out on the carnivore. Yeah, I think I think that's like that's a key sea lines. I can remember the paper that I read decades ago, and they didn't have salmon and there gouts at all. They or how that are a whole bunch of fish that had no commercial value. So that was almost hate the carnival or the flavor. Yeah, we definitely we talked. I talked about that with val guys and some other things. And when just this thing came up, and I like what you said about like the conversation has to be as complex as the topic, and that that just goes to show I mean something that I've learned through talking to people on all sides of this issue is and you articulated, well, there there's some people that there's a protectionist idea, and then there's this idea that, um, every for every wolf you kill, every bear you kill, you're saving x number of unglits or x number of deer and elk. And it's just not that simple on either side. Um. You know, there's there's cohabitation, there's population dynamics, there's so many things, and so you know, luckily we can have these these conversations that people can hear you know what essentially I think is your view on one side maybe vows on another, although both of your views I think have nuance to them. So that's what I wanted to make sure that people could hear from you again and we can laugh. Have a salty Gilbert. Salty Yilbert. By the way, Phil, you can detest Phil can a test is delicious. I was skeptical, and I was I was proven wrong. It is a very tell berry. What what it's what's all about? Well, it's it's it's got a it's got a packet of of element hydration electrolyte drink mix to keep it to keep you hydrated. Um, it's got some some hard seltzer water uh and and and vodka and it's uh, it's it's surprisingly balanced and smooth it is. But it is smooth and salty, salty like you were last year. Delight. So yes, we we hopefully we'll send you. We're gonna send you some packets of Element, which title sponsors this program, and uh, some white and stuff to celebrate and a hat. So we're gonna all you gotta do, Barry, We're gonna send all that stuff to you. All you have to do is send me a picture of you wearing the hat and drinking your salty Yielbert if you don't mind, Okay, I'll do that for sure, so we can consider. I don't have a copy here. No, you brought one, but I think you took it with you. You're mad at me. That was my day of niveness. I guess I'll that's beautiful. I will will trade you. I will. I'll get your address and we will mail you a THHD care package. And you mailed me some books. Okay. Getting back to Grizzly Bears. Uh. In the last couple of days, I go on my thinking captain. I thought, you know, what do you want to talk about? Do you want to talk about their behavior with with you? Then? And felt, are, let's ignore the trolls and their values. But what I came to think about was our relationship with theirs and relationship of theirs to their foods. Like the behavior theirs on salmon streams is totally related to the surplus of food. And the bears they're like black bears. I mean, they're real pussycats. Uh. I almost stepped on a seven pounder one day. I was moving too fast through books camp and the bear jumps out and he looks at me and said, like as to say, I thought we had an agreement. You'd stay in your damn trails and you leave the woods to us. And the thing could have a luck charge for me. It could have swatted at me. It just jumped away, and it was a dominant nail. And I thought, you know, there's gotta be a story there. H when grizzly bears are super hungry or their jaws are damaged in the real old like the one that killed Treadwell. Tim Treadwell, Um, that's a real exception in that country because all of those bears and Tim spent thirteen years almost close enough the pet those coastal brown there. So getting back the relationship, our relationship to salmon bears um is a function of the bears, uh, surplus of food that's available, and they don't even challenge each other. That's like you and I with a room full of steaks. I'm not gonna fight you for a steak when all I have to do is gobble the rest of them around the room. So that there's in the same way and um our relationship to them. In Yellowstone, of course, it's very different. They're North food stressed. There likely to be food conditioned if we habituate them too much. But food conditioning is never a problem on salmon streams. I've had watch situations where a person illegally had food and attack and they're got to it on the stream. It didn't bother with the food at all. Uh, they're not interested in our food if they've got a natural food. But that isn't true of you know, send me starved there and Glacier Park or Yellowstone or Teton or anything like that there. If they're super hungry, you better watch out because they're going to come as close as they can to dellyball. You know, it's it's either you steal food or you die. It's a cohabitation thing. To write garbage cans and rural areas where bears don't have a lot of food. You know, there's lots of examples even here in Montana of those type of things. Um. Well, and it's the same with raccoons. If you want a problem in some cities, just leave some good old fashioned garbage around. Perfect. He let me ask you, let a say this question is popped in my mind. Um, and we gotta run here. Some make us our last last question because I try to narrow narrow down where you know, where in the spectrum we are in terms of of grizzly bears and and if how the win they're killed. If if we ate grizzly bears, would that change I'm not saying this is a fully hypothetical, but if we ate grizzly bears after we hunted them, would that change your feelings at all? Well? Uh, you might convince me if the person needed the meat to feed his family or whatever. It gets back to basic motivations. Why do you why do you want to shoot an animal like that and if somebody says to me, well, there's nothing else in my area, and if I'm going to put something in the freezer from my family, I'll take it bear. And I'm sure a lot of Native Americans, Native Canadians have done this in the past, but by and large, Mum, I would say it's unlikely that that's that's going to occur. Um, I guess I'm saying I don't. I don't agree with that because I don't think it's very likely. I'm not objecting because people don't eat that they're That's what I was asking. I was asking the backwards way. But yeah, I think that's what If we can understand again understand each other's a objections to the activity, then we can start to suss out ways where maybe we can find common ground. And I imagine you would agree that conservation and wildlife management is finding this common ground because there are these divergent views that aren't going to go away, and finding some way to come in the middle is you know, is one of the liar. You know, I look up there and know theirs and I think of them as a big dog. They're closely related to dogs, and we don't Um, yet shoot dogs to eat them. Now they do in Asian countries. Dog is a delicacy, and God knows Lewis and Clark ate a few dogs on their way to and horses. Uh but uh, I just I know so much about theirs and their culture that I don't think of them as a target. I just think there's so much that we haven't learned. Now. I'm not trying to say that, you know, I'm the advanced uh thought process on this, but there we come to realize that that killer whales are variable and have cultures around the world, that they've tracked their vocalizations, and there are numbers a species. Of course, chimpanzee's with Jane Goodall is a good example too. We used to shoot mountain grillas as a sport, and so once we uh, you know, George Shaller studied mountain girls and found out a lot about them, and all of a sudden, nobody wants to kill him anymore, except you know, starving vocals. Well, Barry, we're gonna leave. We're gonna leave it right there. We can talk about this for hours and hours, as I know we could, but I'm over Moreover, I'm glad that we have buried the hatchet. You're gonna get a hat a salty Gilbert recipe mix from us, and we hope, we hope you guys stay well up there. I'm very impressed that you've contacted me again and I'm glad we did this. So let's do it again in a couple of months. Hell yeah, let's do it again. And um, hey, you stay well and best your family and your wife up there, and and we'll talk real soon. Look for that package in the mail. Alright, thank you, alright, Phil, that was Barry Gilbert. That was cool man. Yeah it was you feel better now, yes, yeah, I think it was worth it, Catharsis. Yeah, okay, So next up as we wind down here on the best of and we look forward to next year. Um, we certainly thank Barry Gilbert. He did send us a book, as Phil said, signed a book for Phil and I I think that was literally the hatchet getting buried under twenty feet of dirt. And now Barry is a friend of ours and we love him. He loves us. Just goes to show you you can come together around th HC. Let us be the glue that holds us all together in the new year. Here's another time where I was. I was really proud of the show and proud of what we put together, and happy to have told a story. We told a story of Mark Carter, professional snowboarder, complete badass. I kind of have a man crush on him. I'm not gonna lie. He's a wonderful human. I spent time with him and Joe Ferronado bear hunting in Montana, and then we sat down in the studio to tell his story and to interview him like we would anyone else. But what we got at the end was was expected. But the way that we got it, I think in the detail we got was unexpected on my end. So Mark was involved in a felony poaching incident in his hometown, intensely Wyoming. He does have felonies on his record. He is a poacher. Ah he cannot own firearms or be in possession of firearms the rest of his life unless the conviction is overturned and he's been punished as a poacher. And normally we wouldn't have poachers on this program. But Mark is an exceptional story, an exceptional human, and it's it's the story of learning, it's a story of loss, it's a story of depression. It's a story of redemption. It's a story of somebody that you need to listen to. Um, whether you like what he did or not, he has something to impart to you. So listen a little bit to Mark Carter. We've swept through like all the badass ship but we got to talk about the one. Like it's not prominent that the one thing in your life that completely sucked, but it's a thing that I think, Ah, I'm glad we can talk about it because not a lot of people can talk about it. Yeah, I mean it was a defining moment, man, Like, it was a defining moment, you know, like, yeah, a lot of people I don't know. You know, I have I have three felonies, you know, hanging out with a felon. I'm a felon, man, I'm a felon. I got we got cross ways, you know, it was it was a it was a crazy, crazy time of my life. You know, got crossways with the federal government and they spanked us pretty hard. You know. It was a Yeah, I mean a little backstory was you know, growing up hunting my whole life, you know, Um, that was that was my passion, Like my whole family's passion, my grandpa, like everybody this was, you know, and really like growing up respecting the animals and understanding how the whole system works and being being a poor rancher, you know. And then so when I was about twenty years old, and we were great elk hunters, you know, I shot my my first elk when I was twelve years old and it was a proud moment and just hunted all the way through high school. Loved hunting, guns, everything that was my That was my passion, man, that was my life. And then I started pursuing the snow burning thing, still ranching, doing some other things. And my brother he graduated college, so he came back to the ranch and I mean the ranch, Like, dude, you don't make any money, like he was poor, and so we're an opportunities, like hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna be an outfitter, Like we're good at hunting, like, let's do some outfitting on the ranch. And like the elk that we had amazing elk hunting, like let's do this. And so obviously I was like, wow, that sounds like a pretty good idea, Like I can make a little cash in the in the in the fall, and so we started out, you know, he was the outfitter and I got my guide license and and the first couple of years, you know, it's pretty tough, like because it's a draw, you know, and so we'd have a couple hunters and like it was like it just wasn't what you know, it needed to be more. Well then you know, obviously he met this these guys from Oregon and they were like, hey, guys, like, who can we buy your landowner tacks? Like we'll pay you and then we'll just come out and we'll do the hunt. And like they're gonna pay him. It wasn't crazy. I don't even know how much money it was, but I was getting like a cup of grand fall cash to go work for like you know, a month guiding. And then they'd have a few guys come out and and so the deal was if they didn't draw, they could use one of her landowner tacks because since we had all that land, and if nobody knows about landing, it's like in Wyoming that you cannot sell your land under tags, and we knew that, you know, but like growing up in a small community, like we grew up and it wasn't like I'm not gonna say it wasn't done. It wasn't done. You know, like people subsidize their ranch and certain things like during those times too, maybe southern land under tags. So but we had become an outfitter and we're like, well, let's try to do it almost by the book. So we'll we'll do these hunts and website and we'll do a few land under tags. So that's what we did. We were you know, I think you know over because it was your brother, it was my brother and myself. Well my dad wasn't even involved. My dad was like it was his ranch. But so my dad, you know, he'd come up to hunting camp the ground. He he didn't know what was going on. My brother was like the outfitter. He dealt with it. I was the guide. I did a lot of cooking, ARC did mostly guiding as well. So we had this kind of like this idea that like the land owner tags, it was like kind of a misdemeanor and like, I'm not gonna say I never broke the law. We weren't super concerned about just in the environment we were in. You had a comparison to it like having a couple of beers on the way home from work. Is that how you thought. Yeah, it wasn't like it wasn't like a huge deal. Like it wasn't something that was really on my mind. But I knew I was breaking the law. But like in that environment, like that's it. We were. We kind of I wouldn't say lived in a lawless land, but I mean my growing up, my deputy, the deputy sheriff was our football coach, So we were we got had a lot of reins. Man Like, it wasn't like this super regulated area where they're like, you're breaking the law, you're going to jail. And there was like, man, I you know, I did my share of drinking and getting in trouble as a kid, but there was a lot of just like understanding that these ranch kids are kind of wild and like, well just let him go, you know, like kind of good old boy, let him do his thing. Not that that's any excuse for what we did, but that's how we got in there. I was gonna make it clear that nobody's asking for excuses, just like what's your mindset? Well that was it wasn't a big deal. So this wasn't a big deal in my mind, but I did know it was against the law. How much against the law that was, I did not know. So we go through. You know, we were probably a guide. You know, we guided these dudes for like four or five years, and then they had some friends come out and you know, if they couldn't make the hunt. And granted some of these guys were drawing tags, it wasn't just all landowner stuff. I think over the course of eight years, maybe I don't know how the numbers, but it was it was less than eight tags got used, I think. Um. And so in like two thousand and ten, you know, I'm at the top of my my career. I'm traveling the world, I'm I'm riding. I'm like, I'm like, but there was this weird thing in my life. I was like, I wasn't I was happy, but I was like a little unfulfilled, and I was really burnt out on like guiding hunters. I was really burnt out on, Like that wasn't mine anymore, that wasn't for me. That was like hunting seasons coming and now it was it was like I gotta go guide these guys like okay, whatever, because they can be kind of you know difficult, you know, and then the client servicing. I'm not, like, I'm not a client service guy. So in about two I'll never forget. It was like in in June. June. I mean, yeah, I woke up one morning and there's like six or four federal agents in my my front door, and I was like, whoa, Like what do we do? And my brother he was out in any inkling and all that. I'm like, but I saw a game of fish. I was like, oh, like what do we do? Like we did something like something, something's really bad. I just had this Like its six and six am. So my brother said, he's out on the tractor at six am out like in the field and he sees like four suburbans, maybe four or five suburbans coming down the road bumper to bumper, black come in and he has like this ditch in his driveway and he said, these things hit this thing so hard, like they're bouncing like they jumped. And then all these dude jump out with you know, like federal agents, guns drawn, boom all over his property. And he's way out in the field and he's just starts cruising over in his tractor. He's like what is going on here. It was like a full on raid. Like it was they had sixty They had sixty agents across the nation, Like they rated every hunter we had ever hunted with. So it was a coordinated Yeah, I was a coordinated effort. They had their you know, they had it dialed. So they came in hot Um and they sat down with me and they're like, what do you know about these you know, start talking to me. I can't remember exactly what the conversation was, but the guys that came in were nice to me. Like these dudes were pretty nice, you know. And they started to ask me questions and and I was like, yeah, man, like we have this hunting outfitting. He's like showing me pictures. So basically had a website and these animals that were legal they were on our website. So that's how much we knew. Yeah, so we had the website, we had the animal the legal animals some of them were on there. And they're like, you know what about about those guys? And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, I was so freaked out. I didn't know what to say, you know, like I kind of admitted to some stuff, but I knew that I just kind of played dumb a little bit too. I was like, I don't know, because I didn't. I knew we were fucked, Like it's some capacity here. So they do their thing and they take my cell phone and they take some stuff from me. And then I was like, whoa, that was crazy. I call my brother, I'm like, dude, what is going on? He's like, and he tells me his story. These guys come in. They dude like he just had two babies in his house, and they walk all over and they take all the and they could do anything they want, right, And they walked over his carpet with muddy boots and took his laptop, took everything, cameras, everything, And I was like, man, I don't know what's going on. Like they told us what's going on. It was illegal hunting, and but I didn't know how much of what the capacity was. And then and then they mentioned felony, and I was like, what do you mean felony? Man? Like, what's like a felon? Like you're talking about me being a felon? Okay, that's crazy. And uh So it went on for like a year, and I didn't even know whether to get a lawyer or not house, Like am I in trouble? Did they just continue to contact? You know? It was kind of silence, but I knew something was like going bad, And like r C lawyered up. I didn't lawyer up. I didn't really know, Like if I was in trouble, I didn't know, but they're building a case and then and I was like I had these sponsors, dude, and like I didn't tell anybody because nobody knew. But I had this in the back of my head, you know, I was I was I knew something was coming down the pipe. Like I wasn't dumb, Like I'm pretty wise. Like do you remember the days during that where you're like getting up in the morning. Man, I didn't sleep and didn't sleep. There was two years, right, I didn't sleep, you know, but I I it was it was an amazing experience in the way that I just, man, I had no control, Like I had lost all control of my life. But all I could control was my emotion how I racted, and so I just kind of like went on living man Like it took me a long time to settle into that. So we go for like a year, you know, I'm killing it at life. I think and then were you like, would you was there a guilt there? Do you think? Do you think like you? Because you know, like I said, you know you did something wrong. There's nobody out there that hasn't done something. There was there was never an animal that was shot without a tag. That's all I can say. Everything at a tag. And there was less animals shot because the way we were hunting was like, dude, if you had an opportunity at a mature animal, and if you didn't, you know, if you blew that chance. Like there was a lot of guys went home empty handed. But we did, you know, I think we did get some beautiful animals. Um. But so that went on and I just like it was trying to live my life and trying to be normal. I was dating a really amazing person, and you know it was like there was a lot of stress, you know, but on our relationship or whatever. And but well then it was like August the next year, we get indicted. I get a letter like they're like indictment, You've got to be at the federal court and this is this is the deal, all right. I was like, okay, so we did this landowner. I know there's some tags. This is just a bad deal. Like I don't, I have no idea what's going to happen. We go into court and they and they indicted my dad too, which was really it was that really hurt because he he wasn't involved in the hunting operation, you know, but like one one day he had come down like we've gotten this beautiful bull, and he was there and he would helped his pack pack it out, so I guess he was involved, you know, and he got a photo with the animal, like you know, he's like, oh, take a photo of you know. So anyways, he's involved, he's an accessory. We go to federal court and they're like they they just start reading, like we stand up and they just start reading these charges off man. And so what it was all said and done are my brother and myself were indicted on eleven felonies a piece. My dad was indicted on three. I was facing fifty five years in prison arc and each we're facing fifty five years in prison and four point five million dollars and finds a piece And I was like it wasn't even real, man, Like I remember cutting a check that was one. I was like, I should probably get a lawyer before this indictment. So I kind of check for twenty this like my whole savings. To this lawyer, I was like, here you go, man like, I don't know what's going to happen. He's like, you're this is not good. You guys are looking you guys are gonna go to prison. I was like, man like, I'm going to prison for this, like this is crazy. Not like I had no idea that this was a felony. So they indict us on to be clear, the felony comes in Lacey Act violation. Yeah, yeah, so it was all you guys taken these illegals. So a couple of the hunters, a couple of hunters had taken animals back across state lines, violating the Lacy Act. And that's where that's where the fans became involved, because if they had never crossed in the state lines, it wouldn't have been a felony. So that's where it got really cloudy. And I was like, well like yeah, man, like we are in trouble. I'm facing fifty five years in prison, and so like that was that was the game, man Like. I lived with that and then but the thing was like, once that came out then and then it was public knowledge. Then the media got ahold of it, and then they started writing things about it. You know, it's a huge poaching ring like all these things. And I don't know how you define poaching, like maybe I did. Maybe that's what it was. Maybe that's the definition in legal animal take and um, I I didn't feel like it was, but yeah I did that, and the media butchered us, man, Like it was like this Casper Star Tribune. They were relentless, Joe. I mean it was. It was relentless. And I had a bit of a name in snowboarding, so I mean they were like, look at this guy. And then some asshole in snowboarding like Leasa in the snowboarding media, and then it just blew up. And so I get a call from like one of my huge sponsors. They're like, yo, dude, what is going on? Like I don't know, man, Like, you know, I did some things and I'm in a lot of trouble. Like that's all I can tell you, Like I'm I'm going to continue to do this snowboarding thing, like with or without you guys, Like I understand that, um this does not look good in it on paper, it is horrible, horrible, um. And so that was something I had to navigate and that was a very humbling. I mean I was so vulnerable. I mean I just had my hands out. And then so throughout the next year, you know, I did everything I could. Man like if if they asked me for something like the prosecutors that, I was like, man, what do you guys need for me? Like, I will tell you everything, Like there's I have nothing to hide, am open book here. And my whole family was that way. So we sat down and we went through this whole process for a year of what they were going to do with us. And I'm still trying to like juggle my my professional career where it's like I can see it falling apart. My relationship at home is falling apart. Everything is falling apart around me, and I'm and I just kept thinking to myself. I was like mad, I was like, it may be really prioritize and live in the present because I didn't know if I had a future, because I really thought like I was going to do some prisons. Yeah, did you talk your lawyer And he was basically like, You're like, I would be really surprised if you don't do time, and I just like it was really hard for me to get comprehend that because I had never I had I didn't have a record, like I've never done anything to be in jail. I'd never gotten thrown to jail. I had some minor and fractions as a kid is drinking, but um, it's like, so to go from nothing to like the worst I was, I was it was like my mind did not compute what was happening. Like I was kind of not in denial, but I was like I was just really optimistic. Man, I'm like, I'm not gonna get felonies, dude, I'm just gonna like keep doing this like life's good. But it made me really prioritize my family because during this whole process, they were really trying to turn us against each other, like they're like your brother said. I was like, no, he didn't like that, you know, But I get it. I get why they do that in too, like some bad guys they turn them against each other. But I mean, maybe it's just me and it's my introspect. But like I didn't feel like I was a bad guy. I didn't feel like we were bad guys. You know, I didn't like we you know, it was what it was. Um, that was the most interesting point you said to me. You're like I felt they were doing they were using the tactics that you would want them to use, You want them to use you, And you felt like I'm a good guy, but maybe the bad guys feel that the problem, you know. I mean it's just I mean, poor Mia, It's just just a selfish outlook on it. But um, it was. It was crazy, dude. Like I didn't sleep, but it really got me to this place of of of of calm and patience and just like letting things go and things are gonna happen and there's nothing I can do to control this, and I just let it go. Man. I was like, here we go, Like I'm along for the ride on this one. Man. I was like getting on a plane in turbulent weather flying to South America is like, dude, you have no control, just like sit back and just like take it. And so that's what I did, and I took it, took it. And I think the hardest part was watching the local the local media, the Whirland News, like these guys that that I had all these accomplishments in my career that was like pretty um exceptable, exceptional for that area, Like a snowboarder coming out and they would never do anything in the in the paper about me, like I'd reached out and like kind man, it would be cool to do local things. Never reached out. But the minute I am in trouble and this negative news man, they were all up on that and they just just hammered it weakly about my dad and my That was hard to seeing my dad, like I had a thick skin, but like he's like sixty three years old and like grewing up in this community. And they're like, you're a felon, you're a poacher, you're like doing all this stuff, and like yeah, we're charged with that, and I understand, like that's what it looks like. But that was really hard to watch. And then you know, just navigating that, watching him, watching it hurt him, watching it hurt my mother. And that's just the people around me. But like there's one thing, man, like I learned who my friends were. Like people distanced themselves. Man, Like I had contracts coming down the pipe, like I was about to sign with the snowboard company and they were like, yeah that budgets tapped. I understand, I understand, But there were the companies that stook by, like stood behind me. They knew my integrity. People are gonna make mistakes, man Like, people are gonna make mistakes, and as long as you are are accountable for yourself and you admit and you'd move on like everybody else should too. It's like, forgiveness is a beautiful thing in the human nature, and I think we're losing that. But so we went through this year of just hell. Man, Like I'm traveling the world and like trying to produce video parts. I have this dangerous job where my mind is not in it. My girlfriend's leaving me, Like I have these opportunities that I can't even like I can't even go after because I'm like so mentally like scrambled and and and then I'm in Japan. I'm like on this amazing trip in Japan with like my best friend and my one of my best friends from Norway, where we're snowboarding and doing this project that winner. Everybody's backing me. I know this thing is coming down the pipe, and so we're like going back and forth with the with the Feds, and like I would sit down with these guys, like I was driving from tents or from Jackson to Casper to go meet with these guys because trials were coming up for all the other uh, the other hunters and all this crazy ship was going on. It wasn't just my life, man, They turned like a lot of people's lives upside down. And and I mean maybe, I mean we deserved it, like we I broke the law man, like it was what it was. And I'm in Japan and I still think that there's a chance. And I'm not getting any felonies because felonies to me are like, man, i I'm like thinking all these like things in my head. I'm like, I'm not gonna ever be able to have a gun again, something that I loved so dearly. It's something I grew up with. It's a tool for a rancher. And I'm in Japan doing this project and I just never forget. I was writing then Elevator one morning and I get the email from my lawyer and he's like, here's the poleae bargain, dude, And it was like three felonies, Like all the I got, I was getting three felonies. Um, uh, seventy five thousand dollar donation to the why i'man gaming fish and um, yeah. Then I had to go to court. Then I had to go get sentenced, and I was like, wow, I guess this is this is this is what's happening. Man, there's no like you don't once a police bargain the like here you go. What was the felonies? Uh, conspiracy to traffic in illegal wildlife, trafficking in illegal wildlife, and falsifying government documents because I signed my name to a landowner tag one time, and so I didn't understand the falsifying, but I get it, like it's on the tag and it says if you sign this illegally, that's a felony. I committed that felony. Dude, I signed that ship. You know I didn't. Who reads a fine print? I tell you what I read fine print? Now, So then you know my brother is sentting he plead the same thing. My dad got like a plea with one felony, and like I don't remember exactly his his donation finds. So then and I'm like, okay, well at least we got that over. Okay, We're gonna move on. Like but now we go to court our next step, and that was the thing. It is like I found out I got felonies and my girlfriend left me like within like two weeks. And and I don't blame her for leaving me. Dude, I was a dick. I was so stressed out, like I was trying to like juggle all these things. Sponsors were leaving like it was what it was. I was just I was just like way in the storm. I came back from Japan. I had like some crazy sickness that I was an apartment with no TV. Like every shoot I showed up, she was gone. Everything was turned off and I got sick and laid in my bed for three days with like almost died. There was a quote that Joe has just showed me that I said, it's like this ruined my life up to this point because I have obviously felt that way at that point. I did at that point, man, And that was when I we went to the dude I and when when they rated us, I just earned thirty. That was my thirtieth birthday. It was right before my thirties. Like hey, man, like dude, it's something like they say thirty, like something changes in your life, like either way. I was like thirty suck. But it changed, man, Like it changed me and I wouldn't take it back, you know, like I wouldn't like that experience and that those hardships, like they molded everything that I am right now. And so we go to court and that's the scariest thing, Like we got a chyenne man. Like here we are in court getting sentenced. I'm still facing fifteen years maximum, fifteen years and seven fifty thousand dollars and finals. I'm like, dude, like, I hope the judge is cool. And so I go up there and you're going into that and you don't you have now I still like they got me by the balls. I got nothing, dude, I have no control of the lawyers. Like, dude, like you, I hope we can get you out. And I've just given it all up, you know. I'm like, man, like my life, I've lived an amazing life. If this is what's happening, Like this is what it is, dude, But I can't, like I understand when people get backed into a corner, you know, I understand like that feeling of helplessness and you maybe want to just like act out a little bit. Towards like whatever is pushing you want to push back, dude, you want to push back. But I didn't push back. You know, I went and I stood in front of the judge and and uh, you know I I think one of the quotes was, you know, it's ruined all my life and that was like a quote from the court. And my whole family's already like my whole family and my friends that showed up, Louis and Justin and Dowell and Johnny, they showed up like you do. They didn't have to show up. They showed up in my behalf and my family's behalf. And you know, she she looked at this. I was like, you know, she told me, She's like, I've never I've never seeing anyone facing what you're facing with the record you have in the life you've lived. But at that point you have a plea bargain, you know, like it's done. But she's just like, this is what your sentences and she just like, dude, she didn't give me ship. You know, she was like she understood a little bit, I think, and she had empathy for the situation, not that she was like, you didn't break the law. And she's like you broke you broke the law. Mr Carter, like this is this is the consequences. And I was like, oh, I accepted anything you give me. This is it. And I got three years unsupervised probation because she was empathetic towards my my job and traveling in all his career and so that was like a huge relief. I was like, oh my god, I'm not going to prison, dude, but I'm like, it wasn't. And then I realized, like, my my anxiety wasn't about me going to prison. It was about my brother, Like what are they going to do to him? And dude, he they got up there and uh do they sentenced him to like a year and a half of in prison and like his wife's there and like crying. I was like this this heavy moment, and I was like alright, like okay, a year and a half, Like what's my solution here? Like hopefully that doesn't happen. And walking out of that court room is very sobering. It was in this way of like, Okay, I think you're going to jail. I'm not going to jail, which I'd rather be going to jail. You have the family, but we're done. Now we're moving forward. We're like we know what's going to happen. I have to some control. I'm like okay, man, like let's like we'll figure us out. Like you know, I was eveything. I quit the snowboarding, like I'll come back to the ranch like whatever I gotta do to like hell my family and like make us work. Thank god he didn't have to do a year and a half. They want to do some ship and he did end up having to do like two months in federal which was crazy, but he was like, man, that was a great that was that was that was an experience, man, Like that was something that I needed, you know. And I don't know the reasoning behind everything that went down. I always felt like you know, I when you're always in a situation like yeah, you feel like poor me, poor me, and like they're going at me so hard and like I just but I I just it was what it was, and I just like to take your licking here you go, man, first wreck like wreck, get up, Like are you going to let this define you as a person? Are you gonna like hold resentment against the the people? And it was my choice. It was our choice, man, Like I accepted the choice that we had made to get us in this position. That was us, man, it wasn't them. They didn't have we put them in that position to hammer us. You know, they did go by the law. We did break the law. It was what it was. But I think you're always in that position. You're like, poor me. But I got over that, and I like, you know, Arcy did his prison time. But after that, I really it prioritized my life in a way of like, am I snowboarding for money? Because I lost everything? Man? Like I didn't have ship, I had like one sponsor left. And I was like, am I doing this for money? Or am I doing it because I love o boarding? I love being in the mountains. This is my life, this is this is what I do. And Goose gave me some amazing advice. He's like, man, don't worry about what everybody else is doing. He's like, just focus on your own program. And man, I I quit traveling the world. I focused on being home. I focused on being in Jackson and not leaving Jackson and just like making that my home and saving money because I didn't have the budget to travel anymore. Man. I have like, dude, I go to Alaska twenty g s to like burn on helicopters, which is so like it's crazy, check me out. I'm rich, rich checking out. But I didn't appreciate it, man, until I lost all that stuff, And it was the best thing that ever happened in my career was losing all that and then really appreciating everything I've curated up back to this point, like getting the sponsors. People that signed me understood my past, and I was always been transparent about like yo, like I gotta check her past, Like this is the deal. Understanding being in a position of being of judgment, like people like they see your record, man, Like you see three fell things on somebody's record and you're like, what did this? Dude? Dude, Like you can't have guns, you can't vote, Like I'm not even a citizen, you know, but I think the gun thing hurts me more than anything. You know that, Like that hurts my soul, just not being able to like do something I love. You know, Well, let let me just say this, like you're the first person I've ever met, and I have to think about this and make sure I'm not being hyperbolic. I'm at this moment, You're the first person I've ever met that had their their second a moment rights stripped away and I earned it. I earned it, you know I did that. That was me. But it hurts. And more than it hurting me, it's like watching how it affects our ranch, you know, like like watching like if you ever have been around a big ranch and a lot of livestock, like things need put down and and and shot. And to not have that tool as a ranchers like a doctor not having a scalpel, and the things I see my brother have to do. Um it, man, it kills me. That hurts my heart because like those he cares about his animals more than anybody I know and like to look something in the eye and cut its throat with a knife. Dude, that's personal. Man, Like that hurts. And for one instance, like he had this pig he loved, man, he loved this pig, Peaches. It was Peach's mom. We have Peaches two or three now, but Peach's mom. She was she was just like a family pet. Lived under the little shelter out there under the by the house. And he had a bunch of little piglets, cute little piglets. A bunch of straw is in the winter, and uh, all then little piglets were under there is cold. Well, get a heat lamp in there, and somehow a bunch of some straw got pushed up against that lamp started on fire, and that fire started and he's like he didn't you know, he had to go out there. He saved a couple of the piglets, but he had to like sit there and watch that pig burn and hear it burns. Something that he loved burned because he couldn't put a bullet in it, you know, and like, man, that was tough. Yeah, I mean I don't have all that to say, yeah, but I mean it's just like I just I one. Here's one thing I will say is that this story, you can't find a lot of people that are willing to talk like you're talking right now, man, Like, so you've got a lot of courage, even in this moment in front of a microphone with headphones on, to talk about it. So like it's it's so folks that are listening to this, you take what you want from it. Marx lived it, so it doesn't matter. But like, at some level, there's I don't think I could find another person that's willing to sit here say I got a felony and this is what the story was, and this is how I feel, and this is how I got up off the mat. Yeah, it's it's been something that I've been ashamed of. You know. It's like it's like the elephant in the room, right, Like people are like, what about Carter? Like, but it is what it is, man Like, that's look at where your life is, man, I mean I look at where you are. And that's the thing about this experience is I wouldn't take it back. As as hard as messed up as it was, Like, I would not take that back because I wouldn't be where I am. I don't even think i'd be a pro snowboarder. Dude. This experience lit a fire in me like I've never I never felt. I was like, oh, prioritize my life and got my ship together and like went after it because I was like, dude, it can be over. Like boom, I have my freedom. Like I had all these problems before this, and then there was one problem I was worried about, and that was my freedom. Man Like, when you have your freedom stripped, when you're like I don't. I'm not free to roam anymore. Like, man, I was like, this is crazy, and I was like, yet busy living and dude, I chased it, but I did it on my terms. I was like, I'm not listening to anybody. I have thicker skin now from digging a beating from those newspapers constantly, can only constantly seeing that back and forth. And I just look at these I mean they painted you in like a bad light, and a lot of them man like, well, this's the media. But we talked about the media and the names largest poaching case and like they even used a quote in this one. Um you get down here from one of the uh investigators and he's like he says, I don't worry, but statistically it's a pretty dangerous job. Everybody we deal with has a gun. And it's like it's just they're trying to paint you in a way. That's this man, they painted it. And uh, yeah, I appreciate you know, being on this on this this platform, be able to talk about because I honestly I've never talked about it. Yeah you know, well listen, like I said, I think when when there's there's a symptom which a lot of times is very justified. Like the way you're poaching it to me is is understandable anything. You know your family, you know the people that you are, and when you're telling me the story, I know that you know in your heart like, these are good people and they did a thing they shouldn't have done. And to be constantly forced to rationalize good people being punished in the way that they were is. I know that's a tough thing. And I know you have you want to, you have to say we deserved it because you broke the law I did. But it's not that simple. There's layers. There's layers too, and I think that's something that I've seen through other folks I've known that have had issues UM and the public's fear. People want to they want to knock you down, they want to take you down, and and and again, I would say, look, if I do something wrong, I'll I hope I approach it the way you did and say, hey, I knew this was wrong and I did it anyway, and now I have to face the consequences and learn from it. You know, hopefully the consequences are leveled. Actually need to be held accountable. You know, I think it's important, but I think we need to hold our peers accountable, like our friends accountable, and I think nothing ever changes when somebody you don't respect or care about is like attacking you, but when your friends are like speaking to you with honestly, like yo, dude, that was kind of messed up, Like you shouldn't do that, ship like calling you out, like whether it be in your work environment or your personal environment, Like I really respect somebody that comes up to me. It's like, dude, you like that's how to that's out of line. Man, Like I'm just gonna call you out on that, and then you're gonna be like think about that because you respect that personally. I think there needs to be more of that and not afraid to like cross that line, because I think that's a line that needs to be crossed. If somebody's out of line, man, like put the core tenet of of my lifestyle, like respecting wildlife, respecting the land, and anybody crosses that line, and they're gonna hear it, right and they need to. But as long as they like acknowledge and are accountable, I mean, man, there's room for forgiveness too. That's a beautiful thing about humans. Well you've earned it, Like you're sponsored by the north Face, sponsored by Yeddie, You're sponsored by these companies that have everything to lose by bringing a fellon onto their team. And listen, I was there, I worked there. I understand those relationships. Those relationships. It's it's either it's a zero some game. It's very much either it's all good for the company, or it's not going to happen, it doesn't continue. I mean, man, it was like it was crazy, the hate, Like you couldn't read the comments, like people just like, oh, they should all be killed, Like I mean crazy, I don't read the comments because it's just this this no consequence for your actions, like if you say that online, this cowardly platform where there's no consequences. And I think that's the problem today is people can just say things Like where I grew up, man, like if you said something to somebody like there was consequences, there was no running from it, like you had to stand toe to toe and you're like did you say that? And that just doesn't happen anymore. Like, man, I had, you know, a couple of projects come out and I had people calling my sponsors, government agencies calling my sponsors telling them after I had paid my dues done everything that they wanted me to do. I got these guys calling my sponsors and tell own them how bad of a guy I am, and getting cut from sponsors because these guys that I just bowed down to and did any everything they wanted me to do, I still had the power and control over my career and that that pissed me off. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, We're not done here, Like we're still We're gonna still gonna do this, like I have no leverage and there was nothing I could do, but I just took it. Man. I just watched these sponsors fall off. There's like there, oh, there go some more revenue. Awesome, thank you, thank you? What more do you want for me? You know? Did you feel at any moment that that maybe this wasn't redeemable, like maybe you couldn't get it back? Was there everybody like a low moment where you're like, dude, that I may never I got I guess if I didn't. It got to where I didn't care if I got all that back. I just wanted to continue to live the life that I believed in and that was where I found freedom. And then it all came kind of back around. You know. I just I gave up the paychecks. I gave up like carrying chase, whatever the industry told me I needed to do. Because I was a controversial subject within the snowboard industry. Everybody's kind of like Carter over, Carter over here, you is some poaching redneck from from Wyoming, And of course they would like generalize me into that, into that box. They didn't know that, you know, my past, you know, and I think that's a dangerous thing. So when all these things are going down in our society and all these things, like I can really like I can kind of relate to some things. You know. I know what it's like to be stripped of your freedoms. I know what it's like to be just no control, just zero control. But it's like how you respond to this, Like are you are am I gonna make this my identity gonna Am I gonna be a victim here? Or am I just be like I'm gonna use that ship as fuel. Man, I'm gonna like stand up, I'm gonna work my ass off, I'm gonna like my my mentality was like I want to anybody that hated and like called me and tried to like hold me down, I'm gonna show them in like five years that like they were all wrong here. I am like everybody's like Carde Cardridge, temporary man, like snowboard industry. I was already like an underdog with like my background. Nobody has a rancher in snowboarding. Like it wasn't cool, dude, Like it was not cool. They're like this, dude, let's this cook over here. And I was like, listen, I grew up in the mountains. I grew up in the nature, Like this is this is my this is my ship, and I'm gonna show you guys, this is my ship and I live it every day. I live in the dirt, I live in the mounds, I live in the winter, and um yeah, man, I just trying to like keep that, keep that going. Look Like, in a lot of ways, our society functions on stories, right, and and as somebody who writes stories and thinks about stories and how to tell stories, you don't tell a story that doesn't have it doesn't have a triumph, and it doesn't have an ultimate challenge doesn't have a protagonist and an antagonist. You don't tell a good story. You don't tell a flat, happy story to people to compel them. You don't turn on Netflix and watch somebody's happy life. You watch people go through ship and being perfect and come out of it. And that's what makes life compelling, right, I mean, man, like that that that's suffering and just that hurt and like that's so it sucks at the time, but man, that's the best thing for you. That builds character. I got a lot of character. I was gonna say, yeah, you're not You're not gonna beating, like, but my dad, like, you know, I think it comes back to the ranch. Man. Like, it wasn't my first beating. Maybe it was like that and it was like traumatic, but it was not my first beating. I was like, okay, so what we do. But I mean it prioritizes my family and made me appreciate everything I have. I was like, listen, I could lose all this ship tomorrow. As long as I do lose my freedom and as long as I have my family, it's gonna be all good. You know. So everything passed that's been a bonus. So it's like it's a good dude. Well, it's like after taking all that time trying to battle just to understand, like am I going to have freedom? And then like maybe achieving the ultimate freedom towards knowing that, like here's the real priority, Like I had to I had to face certain prison. That's a weird thought, dude. I would just say, like, I know, I've been hanging out with you, dude, You're normal, dude, you're good dude, Like, and you were facing prison time from the federal government. Man, you know, and they're passed. Man, they're pissed. And look again, I know how it is in our commutey and the hunting community. People people are rightly stripped of things when they do things wrong. They're right at least. So if I, you know, if I did if I did what you did, I'd be stripped of a lot of things right and rightly rightfully so and as well as you were. Um, but there's there's there's always a butt to People don't deserve to get a race from the plan. No, we can move on. Like if people are like I say, accountable and and understand, like they admit their guilt, they stand up and they stand there like that's what I did. Man, Like, well, why not forgive like I want to here you are right now, sit here in this one how many years? How many years are going by? Not that? Man's like I think I had sentenced in two thousand and twelve, eight years, eight years. Man sucks not having guns bullshit, And that's you have to get a presidential pardon, correct too, I think so. I mean, I just you know, I just I don't know, man, Like I can't even vote, dude, I can talk to the president. You just feel like that's it. Man, that's well. I I've accepted it, you know, and if like something changed, that would be amazing. I would love to see my my my old man as my brother get our guns back. But dude, like honestly archery, like being able to hunt like that was the first time when Dudley took me out last spring with that new bow he built me and took me to Oklahoma and I hunted hogs with him, and I shot a bore Like I didn't realize how much I missed that and how much that meant to me. And and he never judged me, he didn't look at me like I was just like this, like tarnished human being. He's just like, oh yeah, man, I think you're cool. Like it's just you know, it was like to go and get back into hunting and be out there. It was like such kind of like a rejuvenating thing for me. Was that something you were kind of worried about, dude, I was so worried about that, Like even after your your rights came back and you could go hunting again. Where was it something you just avoided because judgment? Man, Like, who wants to be judged? Let's be especially in the hunting community. I mean, this is like a controversial topic, and I'm sure there's a lot of people are like that guy sucks. There's a lot of people get mad at me. But I get and I get that, and I like I've had like I've had experiences and when we were talking about this, we were hunting. Man, It's just like people, I hate to generalize like this, but like there is this there is a portion of people that want to knock folks down and keep them down and and listen, I get the anger. I get that I'm doing it the right way and this guy didn't. How we just should never celebrate him again. I get that feeling. But I met you, and I know you what I'm talking to you, and I'm seeing you sit across from me like bearing everything for for what you know. There's nothing for you to game from sitting here talking to me. There's nothing and so but yet you're doing it right And so that show's character. Yeah, I mean I got lots of it. I can look at it like no matter what you've done, or what I've done, or definitely what Joe has done for guard holding us this week, like we're not going to judge him kicking rocks, kicking rocks. But but I think like when you can look at somebody and they can say to you, listen, man, this is my story, this is my life, this is what I did. I fucked up. It's it's it's awful. But then you can laugh with them and learn about their life and their successes and the other things in their life that balance out the ship. What's more, what's more like human? What's more man? It's it's relatable and in some sense I agree, I agree. I mean, everybody's faced their hardships whatever degree that maybe, but it's like stand up man, like, don't let them keep you down. They want to keep down. It's the easiest thing to do. Like, but people I understand, man, Like people are pissed. People are pissed, like what's going on? People want to like they want to they don't know what to do. It's like lost, man, It's like, you know, what you could do is just like be kind, put yourself in other people's shoes, think about what they're thinking, why they think that way, Respect one another, you know, like help your neighbor. Like if somebody doesn't you know, if there's a complete opposite so diverse in this world, like help them if you don't think they'd like you, that's more of the reason to go up and be like, hey, man, how you donna smile? How are you doing day? Man? Like, yeah, it doesn't cost a penny to be nice, dude, I don't know. Well for you to go through all that, you know, and again it's like going through it as a turn. You went through it, happen, you did something wrong, you got pinched, took it, you took it. Here you go and then come out on the other edge of page. You do. Come out on the other end like hey, positivities the way and not like funk the government. You know, like, hey, man, I don't hear you're saying that. What are you gonna do? Man? It's positivity, you know, And like I generalizing things like is dangerous, Like there's bad there's bad eggs and every carton. But to say one carton is bad just because of what they are, like, that's that's not right. And I think there's great people in the government. You know, there's people that care in the government. Are there people that don't care? And are all there some duds? Yeah, lots of them. But like, man, we're all human, dude, Like whatever pistons you are, it's just like seeing each other as humans, you know. I'm just like acknowledging that we're all on the same team. Dude. Yeah, I mean, listen, no matter what it's it, no matter what else it is, no wonder what else your like life and story is what you just told is powerful, Like, no matter what it is other than that, powerful people if you really listen to it and take it in. Mark sitting here just bearing all this and laying all this out there, man, But which Peaches I had a better end? Yeah? Yeah, she has a bad deal. A bad deal. But I mean that's one thing to back about to the ranch. It's like, man, like nothing new about death. My death is that's the only guarantee. Like we're all gonna die, like animals die, like being on the branch, like understanding that, and that's really like what made me. I don't want to die, man, but I ain't afraid of it. I do not fear that, you know, I will like do things. I don't ever make any decisions based upon is it dangerous. I was like, yeah, it's dangerous. It kind of makes it fun. But I don't have a death wish and I don't want to die. But I mean, I'm not gonna like go around scared of dying because dude, hopefully happens quick like lights out that I mean, it is what it is, you know. Yeah, man, I don't know. Like I said this, this is one of those times where you know, it's not that I can say other than thanks for sharing that stuff. Hey, man, pleasure, thanks for choosing this, thanks for choosing this place, and thanks for taking me bear hunting. Any time, dude you come about. You still have a bear tag for this one too. We know that I'd love to come back, man, gets some meat. You're welcome anytime, man, because it is U don't have to be bears either, could be anything, do something, something will happen, Something will happened. But yeah, we had fucking blast. That was blast. That was fun, like when you can. We just hiked and sat around. We met a little older couple that were so nice to us. They were asked us all kinds of crazy questions. Hey, there was an older guy who was a hunter, like quote unquote hunter had hunted before with guys and things. And then his wife it was completely and utterly clueless too what was going on? And she's like, how do you get a bear out? If you how do you shoot it with a bow more than one? I love when people are interested in something they know nothing about, and I think that's how that's how we should be. Man. We just like, you know, answer them with a smile. Don't look at him like this pretentious look like you're dumb, Like, hey, oh yeah you're interested. Here you go. That's the first step, like understanding. She wants to understand man, and appreciate it. Great. And I'll tell you what, man, flat out totally honest looking the eye you appreciate for lices is infectious. Joe would agree. Tell you when you look at when you've seen death a lot like you appreciate that life and especially like the existential, like your social life and the way you're seeing in your industry and how hard you work to gain a standing and having that you know just wrecked for for you know, for reasons that you cause. It's it's a appreciate life is good. Life is good. Okay, Phil, What did you think about Mark Carter? There was a little bit of controversy around us running Man. There's some people around that didn't think we should have had him on or be friends with him, or know him or talk to him. Did you have any such feelings around this? Do you want me to give you the honest answer the answer that you want to err I want to get. I want to give you the honest answer, honest answer. I didn't think because I feel like you framed it around the whole cancel culture thing that that is. I think that is something that happens. I don't think his story should have been filed under that um because I don't think he got quote unquote canceled in any way. I think um he admittedly committed a felony and and is paying for it in a way, but he's still able to like make a living and it didn't destroy his reputation in any like i'd say significant way. Um So those are my honest feelings about it. Yeah. I mean it's complicated because he had a lot of his His career was destroyed in a lot of ways, his life was destroyed in a lot of ways, and he he was punished in many tangible and intangible ways for what he did. And and I don't want to be I don't and and this isn't me saying that like someone can't be redeemed or or can't make or can't attempt to make up for past wrong doings. I I absolutely think that that is something that we should that people should strive for and we should support. Um. I I guess I just don't feel I don't feel bad for the guy. I guess that's like the best way to sum it up. Yeah. Now, I don't think he would want you to feel bad for him. I think he is. He knows that he has to own it and live it, and that's that's his story. And he doesn't shy away from it. He doesn't try to hide it, he wears it. On its sleeve, that's for sure. Um. And so yeah, I mean since we've ran that podcast, I've I've pretty regularly got an emails from people questioning why I would even you know, talk to him, would call him a friend, or I want to relate to him in any way, And I just tell people, you know, in a time of cancel culture, I'm not saying he's part of cancel culture, but I'm saying, in a time of cancer culture, you know, hearing people's stories and being able to explore redemption is an important thing. You know, not redemption isn't always there for people, and they're not always deserving of it, but certainly, um, it's it's it's it's interesting to consider. And in Marks case, man, I I've found him to be nothing but honest. So to to you know, to wrap it up, Mark Carter, we love you and we're glad you shared your story. You know, everybody can have their opinion, but least it's out there, at least you shared it. I think it was a big moment for us for this podcast in but to wrap this all up and to get into next year, we have to absolutely have to talk about one shining moment in all of our lives, and that is the Sizzler promotional commercial from It was our favorite thing this year, was it not the Scisslor commercial. It's just uplifted us so much. Yeah, yeah, I mean it was the best thing that happened on the podcast this year. Uh, you know, I don't I don't mean to be rude to you. I think you're very you know, like smart and talented and YadA, YadA YadA, but you just you couldn't bring what Sizzler could. And it's freedom, it's choices, it's everything we ever needed. So as we look forward into one here at the th HC, we're gonna be guided by the gentle hand of the Sizzler and the buffet and the choices and the freedom. So we're gonna leave you to ponder that and we'll see you next week for a brand new year, brand new season of THC. Phil Play The Sizzler. Now, I have obsession right now, and it is something that both of you. I sent for both of you to watch. I've watched it maybe a thousand times in the last week. It is sublime. It has gotten me through some tough day. It is everything that I needed in my life. Now, Phil, you have watched this video? Have you not? Oh? Yes I have. Would you just describe not the contents, but how it made you feel this video We're gonna play a little bit of it here in a second, But this video make you feel I I absolutely I love it. I mean it's it really does transport you to not even just a different time and place, but like a different like plane of existence. It's like taking it's like taking d M T. See. God, you just Danielle, you've watched it. Do you have any like emotional feelings? Do you? A part of me is like very annoyed and impatient because it's probably the longest video I've ever seen of nothing. It's it's it's not long enough in my opinion. I just gotta get you gotta get in the right head. It definitely takes you back in time to like just I don't know what, I don't know what it reminds me of exactly, Like it's like I've been there, but I'm not there. Yes, so it really at some level it Uh, it's changed me in a way that I really can't describe. And and what is it? You might ask? Well, Uh, my buddy Bill roadin listener podcast. Uh works for Modern Huntsman now Exceptional Human. He's been on the show with Andy Anderson last year. He just posted this. He's and he's a marketing guy. He's in the marketing world. Um. He posted this and with more of like a kind of dystopian like, look, look how screwed up America is. But when I watched it, I thought, look how beautiful America is and look how you know, how how united we are? And it's a commercial for Is it a commercial film or is it just a what would you call it? I mean, yeah, it really is just like a marketing video for They describe it as like for it was like not a training video, but like an introductory welcome to working here video for employees and also for investors of this company. Now, before we get started, this is a it's a it's it's entitled to YouTube video entitled Sizzler promotional commercial. So we'll if you want to google that or go to YouTube and search it out, we'll let you in and we'll pause for a moment so you can watch it and we're back. Um, Danielle, have you ever been to a Sizzler? No? In fact, I thought that was either a very old Las Vegas casino or Golden So, Phil, you're you've been to a sizzle or before? Man I was telling you, yes, I have, but not since the mid nineties. And that's what that helps this video exactly. So this is so like because it had been that long. The way the restaurant looks in this video is exactly what I remember. So they actually just filed for bankruptcy because of COVID I think like a couple of months ago. So they are still around, but but barely barely. And this this might bring them back, maybe if they sponsor the Hunting Collective, this could bring them back the listeners of this show. But I wouldn't do that to the listeners of this show because you're like, at the very least, you're gonna get an upset stomach. At the worst, you're gonna get bostil is um if you go to the system. And that's how just how it is. It's not I'm not making any fun a sizzler. I'm just stating facts. Um. So, Phil, do you want to describe in some detail to to Daniel what a sizzler is and what you're like, it's it's it's a buffet restaurant. And that's what I mean. It's just boiling it down to to the the essential idea of what it is. The food is not good. I mean it sits under hot lamps for hours. Uh. I think it used to be kind of an all encompassing kind of buffet, like just everything. I mean, if you watch that video, they're touting like salad and seafood and sneaks and yeah exactly and like and it looks like a yeah, I mean you got the idea of a Sizzler. It's like a very cheap, like like five blocks off the strip, like Las Vegas buffet like um, like yeah, if if you can't afford to go to the you know, Flamingo or whatever. Uh so yeah, And but I think they started leaning towards pizza at some point. But I might be making that up, but I don't know. It's hard to know. Yeah, they've leaned. I think Sizzler lean. They probably lean with the wind whatever was happening socially. They would just throw it in a bucket and put it out. I just remember there being seafood and I remember avoiding that um. And also remember like the the the bright is hell Neon Sizzler sign that I would drive past often in my hometown of Haggerstown, Maryland. So if you're if you're listening from Haggerstown, Maryland and the Sizzler and you like know about the Sizzler and it's still open, please let me know because when I come home from Thanksgiving, I'm going there. Then I'm gonna play this commercial for everybody. But like the first minute and a half of this video, you would have no idea that it's a promotional video for Sizzler. It's just like it's like nineties families just like hanging out. Like there's a there's a girl, there's a girl, there's a girl playing baseball. There's like a there's like an old Gordon's fisherman looking mf like like on a boat. There's like a sailor, like I guess there's a man in a sailor costume that looks like the sailor looks like it looks like the sailor from the village. People like, not actually a sailor, like just hanging out on a dot. And then all of a sudden, it's like says, Lari is the way, and they went to like a theater and took all the costumes and they went to the prop closet of San Diego State University. Yet, just say we were going to do a fundraiser, be a cameo for like a for like a charity or something like that. I think maybe if we do the cameo and raise money, we should recreate this video with that money. I would love that. I would so I think we might. I gotta again get permission from the people that pulled the strings here, but if they would allow me to raise about ten grand to put this to do this, it could change lives. I'm reading the YouTube comments right now. It has to two plus million views on YouTube, because why not. The best comment is directed by Michael Scott from the office I Have I have. I'm not even from America, but damn I do feel proud to be American. I don't know whether to eat it sizzler or to enlist in the military. Better do both. Yeah, yeah, and there's there. Yeah, there's about a four minute long song that it's just singing that's singing about about the sizzler and then like and then at some point a narrator breaks in is like America, Americans decided. They love to, they love choice, and they love freedom. Sizzler play that, somebody says, plays at my funeral. It'll cheer up my family as they remember my love. And then at some point they bust out their slogan, which is Sizzler a restaurant within a restaurant, a Russian nesting doll of restaurants, somebody writes. And sometimes when we touch the salad bars too much, I want to hold you until they bring us our fries. It's yeah, all right, Well let me play. Should I play all four minutes of it? Phil and just have like, No matter how much I personally would love that, I'm trying to think about your audience. I'm gonna I'm gonna play like the first little bit and then we'll record till the end. Uh and just and I'm not even I don't know what to say, so I'm just gonna be laughing, um, and maybe I'll giggle like a schoolgirl here. So let let's go. Oh, this guy starting a frisbee to a dog and that dog catches it with such beauty. There's a guy to construction had looking at you creepily, half smiling. There's a little girl on a tree with a baseball back. You don't play baseball and trees, little girl. There's the Gordon's fisherman man seagulls in the background. Oh oh man, a little girl on a sailor at riding a bike on the dock. Yeah. Oh, that little girl got out of the tree and hit a baseball. Oh it must be a good one. She's excited. She jumped in the air slow motion. Half of this video is in very bad looking slow motion too, which is another great part. Sissler. Oh, this guy puts his cowboy hat on another lady. Oh, all right, I'm gonna play the end. I can't, I can't. There's nothing I can do. Sizzler is the one that brings us choices. Is is probably the new slogan of this podcast. Um fill any commentary before we continue. I just know, I know. I mean I said something before we start recording, which was this is this is the last thing you see before you die? And I honestly hope it is because that would be incredible. All right, Well, let's close it out here. We're gonna start with the two sailors kissing and then looking weirdly at the camera, and then continuing on. They are kissing, make it as they're not kidding, are like smooching, lanking the high they're making out and then they look and they see the camera and then continue making out as if they know where this video is gonna gonna be. There goes to kiss. Oh, the little girl is dancing. She hit that ball so far, sizzler.

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