00:00:08 Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I grew up on hy Everybody, Welcome to episode one thirty eight. I'm Ben O'Brien. I'm here with Philly engineer Phil. I hated that. Thank you, Thanks man. I just like to yell at people to get them make sure they're listening. Worked on me, worked on you. Yeah. If you saw the face that film made when I yelled into the microphone was one of discussed, one of ang of deep deep anguish um and despair. Well, we got a lot of things to do today, but we have now I'm gonna let Phil pronounce Ivan's last name, but we have a wonderful neurosurgeon on the podcast today because I've been thinking about since we went to Yellow National Park with Dr Daniel Staylor some weeks ago and talked about mountain lions, wolves, predation, all things that surround those very important topics. What is the mind of a predator look like, what are their motivations, what are their biological like, what are the things that are like biologically tend to do or what are the things that are driven to do by conditioning. I've been thinking a lot about that. As I said, I make quit podcasting and try to become a wildlife biologist. But until then doing things like this. So I looked around. I searched, I searched, I searched. I finally found a neurologist who had studied what actually goes on in the brain when it comes to predation. And so you'll hear all about the study from Ivan Araujo. Perfect, we're gonna go with that, Ivan d Araujo, We'll go with that. And I even if we pronounce your name wrong, Phil, pronounce your name wrong, I apologize on his behalf. Thanks Patty, always looking out for me, Yeah, always always trying to protect you. I haven't. Um. It was one of the more interesting conversations, Phil. You listen to a little bit of it. It was one of the more interesting conversations that I've had. And sometime, just because of Ivan's delivery of the information. He is, I'm sure that no one listening to this has ever heard of him. He's the study he did on predation specifically in mice UH and how neurons fire in the central amygdala. I said that, right, I've been practicing that. Good job. Um. That study I think just sheds light on a lot of different things about how we think about predators, how predators interact with the world around them. And then he's he's studied a lot of philosophy, so the way that he kind of presents this very technical information seemed at least to me and hopefully to you to be incredibly, incredibly helpful. So I look forward to you guys get into that. We'll get to that as quickly as we possibly can. And again probably the to ivan for the name mess up. Well, Phil, what did you think last week? Like, did you get a lot of feedback from the David Hasselhoff exchange? Did you did you feel more motivated? Your number was at a five last week? Checked with you, Well, people were inspired by David Hasselhoff in hiring me that I got even more Instagram commons and messages, people offering their own words of encouragement. Yeah, no, thank you to everybody out everyone out there on Instagram. And then the emails that have been encouraging Phil keeping his his and it's it's were like in the dog days of August, we were just talking about with producer kran before we came in here. We're all kind of just feeling a little bit of worn down, feeling dull um. I don't think my synapses. It's a good thing we're talking to a neurologist, because I don't think my synapses are quite firing just right. I've been doing some things that I wouldn't normally do. I've been missing some beats that I would normally hit. And I think it's just been a long drawn out I think seven years has it been since the pandemic begun? Yep? Yep, almost eight almostly, So we're all just kind of feeling worn down. But I have someone here too to keep you going, Phil, to push you somebody else forward, someone else, a good friend of the show. Hassle off, wasn't enough, a good friend of the good friend of the show. Okay, so now I'm not aware if this person has had a music career, but we'll dig that up. If there's any songs by this person, we'll dig that up. But without further ado, play the music, philm and now a reading. Hi Phil, I hear you are learning how to hunt Chuck. Norris Leopold once said, we abused land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. That's right. When we see Land as a community to which we belong to. Thanks, may begin to use it with love and respect. Chuck Norris. Then, and I wish you the best, stay safe and all the best your friend, Chuck Norris. Whoa Chuck Norris. Oh my goodness, Chuck Norris. What do you think, Phil? Wow? Yeah, so I ended at a five and a half from last week. Yeah, Chuck Norris was a little more like he was a little more subdued than David Hasselhoff. That's true, but I think his words carried weight. And I'm I'm gonna go up a full number, Chuck six and a half. Thank you, Chuck Norris. I wish I had, you know, Chuck Norris, Uh looks great. Bye the bye. Uh not as many gold records on the wall compared to hassle Off. No, he's like, you know, he's been a nice place because al Leopold once we abused Land. That's right, we do abuse Land. It's crazy that he just pulled that up quote off the top of his head. Yeah, no, you know. I called Chuck was like, hey Chuck, Charles, Charles, I've been I got this problem, you know. And then and the kind of guy that Chuck Norris is he's a problem solver and he's not gonna We've seen it. Yeah, yeah, he's not gonna let anything go go unsolved. And so thank you to Chuck. What's you know what's Chuck? What's his most famous movie? I have no idea but his show. And I've got a history with this show. Uh, Walker Texas Ranger. I'll say that that's the that's the highlight of the Norris career. There it is, there is Oh, I keep the guy ready in the face, the unsuspecteds Drange chair had better know that he's a singer too. From right, m Ranger you see it's not good, that's great behind you because that's where the Rangers gonna be boom. Thank you, Chuck Norris, thank you so much. In the early two thousand's, Conan O'Brien had a bit on this show called the Walker Texas Ranger Lever, or he would just pull it out and pull his lever and it would play a random clip from Walker Texas Ranger without any context whatsoever. And it was always completely absurd, and I think it's what got me like completely shaped my comedic sensibilities that that one segment. Yes, I apparently there's a Walker Texas Stranger reboot last year, and so we'll we'll hang on Chuck. Chuck is busy, but I mean in the interest song. If you guys go and watch the video, he roundhouse kicks the ship out of a guy like harder than I've ever And so that's what I feel like in your heart right now you're doing to your hunting, to the to the challenges that will be presented to you here. I mean that house's house he's sitting in was was purchased by his roundhouse kicks. That's what he's known fees of. Thanks well, thanks, Chuck, friend of the show. I'll text you later, buddy. Um, I know you're listening, so thanks, thanks so much. It just just as in a side before we move on. I don't know any of these people. Uh. The best part about the and now reading, which may or may not continue, I have no idea if if it's going to continue not. And here's the reason why. Because there's an app called cameo. I don't know if any of you've heard of it, where I can pay celebrities to say pretty much anything I want them to say. This is disappointing. Yeah, you thought, another peak behind the curtain, another show is just behind the scenes, behind the scenes. Um, I've been paying you know, I paid hefty, hefty price tag get Chuck to to do that. But it's worth it to me. But then people were saying inside media, they were saying, like, how do you can approval for these funds? This is completely frivolous, And I said, yeah, but it's awesome. It's content, baby content. So anyway, who knows who knows? If right into meat eater at the meat eater dot com and let them know that to continue, these moneys are being spent in the best way possible and also have an idea that's This has been the most entertaining part of the quarantine for me, watching people go like and close friends of mine go, how the hell did you get David hass All, in fact, one of my cousins brow It's like, you know David has All, haven't heard of him in six years. It's your friends with David hassel Off, Like yeah, man, yeah, good good bros. Yeah. Goes back to day Baywatch days. Anyhow, Cameo and I'm gonna get on Cameo and Phil doesn't think we can do it. Now this isn't again, isn't approved by the bosses at meat Eat or anything. They don't want me talking about very large asterisk in the corner of this next upcoming sentence here. Yes, but I got this idea where I'm gonna be on Me and Phil together will be on cameo, and then you can pay us. We're gonna go. I think fifty bucks a pop. Now that's I know that's a lot. We're in a pandemic. I think we can do it if we can get two hundred people listening to my voice right now, listening to this voice right now, two hundred people to give fifty dollars. Me and Phil will do whatever you want. I think it's clear that I'll do anything. I dressed up like a fucking turkey one time and let Stevenella hunt me. So I'll do whatever you want. I'll dress up like every whatever you want. It doesn't really matter. Fifty bucks two people. That's ten grand. I think I'm good at math. I think it's ten grand. It could be a million dollars, but I think it's ten grand. Take that tang grand. We're gonna give it to a charitable organization of of our choosing. That's my idea. Now that's not approved by anybody. Nobody. A meat eator HQ has approved that. I have to still like write an email and asked to do it. I got to see see a couple of the whatever suits or whatever. But I think we can. I think we can pull it off. And I think Phil else said to me before he record, he said that we couldn't do it. He said, we can't get two people. He said something like even my favorite podcast, I wouldn't give fifty bucks for a video. But I think he's wrong. Okay, I would love to I would love to meet that goal. Okay, anything else, you wanna walk back your negative attitude? Nope, no, Okay, I would love to meet that goal period period. Okay, we're not really doing that yet. Hopefully I'll get the approval quote on the quote and we'll do it next week or whatever. But I've already signed up for the cameo app. I'm on there and I and let me just reiterate one thing that's very important. Phil and I will do anything. Ben will do anything. Phil and I will do anything, will do anything. Anything you want us to do. I want him to do on the cameo, Yeah, thirty seconds. But anyway, thanks Chuck Norris. We'll see who pops up next time on I'm looking at I'm looking hard at Carol asking Phil bye the Bye. I mean, if we can get her, do you really want a reward of It's a reward is mine? The reward a murderer, murder alleged. It's alleged she now owns a zoo by the bye and a sanctuary. Anyhow, moving on, moving on, um, we have to read a good email from our good friend Luke Reef. Do you remember Luke Reeves. Yes, yeah, Luke Reeves, him and his betrothed Lisa came on the podcast. You know. He was the guy who I said, here's how you get engaged, and then he got engaged and came on. We gave a big my jacket. He also wrote in when we were doing Dr Phil Medicine woman when he had the rather short I believe it was his uncle who was messing with him on their local property. And this is directly just to you, Phil, So listen up. Okay, dearest Phillium. It's been a long time since we corresponded over electronic mail about my clash with the halfling to say things are a little different in our country would be an understate. So just to revisit Luke again, you can go back and listen to episode fill in the blank. I can't remember what it was, but there was a quarrel but to a family member, quarrel between Luke and his uncle, who apparently is not he's a slight of stature. It's kind of a short fellow. And there was a continual clash, and that he wrote in and asked Phil for the advice, and I think Phil's advice. Do you remember what the advice was? Phil? Of course I do. I have something like do your best treat others like you want to be treated. And as Luke Skywalker would say, I want. I went on to go to Toshi station to pick up some power converters. Perfect uh he and he said, he goes on, Luke goes on. I had been waiting to write in again until you guys got your invitations to the wedding. But recently Ben wrote an article about Hollywood's most ridiculous hunters, and he chose Joe Pesci. I couldn't help but wonder if perhaps my emailed dismounting little dildo Saggins may have planted that seat as hard as that. This is for me to admit for reasons that Ben knows. I believe Cal was right in his views that having you read my email with all the jokes included on air was the best thing to do about said problem again the conflict between family members, and there have been no issue since. So thanks to you, Phil. You give me a lot of undeserved credit on this show, and that's why I stick around. I don't know about you, but I think that's a celebration worthy of fireworks, much like bilbos a hundred and eleventh birthday. Of course, I am joking, but as you learned from my previous email, I can't let the opportunity to mock the vertically inferior passed me by. Anyhow. In previous shows, you've had other listeners right in to share their experiences in handling the various quarantine guidelines and how it has affected their day to day. Since March, when lockdowns and changes have started in Nebraska, Lisa and I have closed on our house, moved in together, listed and sold my old house, and continue to plan a wedding that we have no idea if it will be legal to have no Normally, I would scoff at these safety ordinances. I'm an industrial electrician. Every day I go to work would be my last. And honestly, after you shared a porta potty with a hundred strangers on the job site, there's not many germs left that scare you. That's true. That's true. There was just a There was just a construction site and big sky where there were one hundred and sixteen positive because they were all short. He goes on to say, I've seen things, man, horrible things. Once once we had job sites and other cities be locked down for outbreaks. I scoffed no more. I've gone from anxious and afraid to annoyed and angry and back again. It doesn't help that everywhere is burning and there's no source outside of th HC that I can trust. My younger brother, I'm so sorry, Luke no used the force. My younger brother's fiance and her office was destroyed in downtown Lincoln during the riots. My father, who was a college football coach, was recently just allowed to resume his coaching duties after twelve weeks of wondering if there will ever be sports again, needles to say has been an absolute ship show for this long time listener. On the bright side, Lisa and I drew mule Deer tags out West, and I drew an Analop tag as well. So instead of asking a question, what I would literally like to do is thank you all for your continuing to give people like me a break from the chaos that is our day to day lives. I've enjoyed every single episode you've put out, and I'm sure I'll need to do so. You guys at Mediator, especially you Phil, may not be the hero as we deserve, but you're the ones we need. Hopefully, come December, I'll be able to write back about how great the wedding was and how many people complimented the first light jacket I wore instead of a suit. Who knows. Now I'm off to enjoy a salty Gilbert. You stay classy, Phil. That was a great email. Love forever and always, Luke ps posted script and a completely unrelated note. I wanted to tell you Phil that your cat's names are awesome. I can tell you are a kindred spirit as my cat's names are Penguin, Clyde, Frog and Baxter. Although he goes by Tuna because he is an excess of thirty pounds. Those are those are good cat names? Ben, What do you think of those pet names? Horse? I thought you'd say that it should be should be like Bridger culture. It's all mountain men names. Yeah, exactly what I'd be looking for out of my cats. What were your cat's names again, meet Loaf and Kevin? I mean that said together like that. I'm into it. Okay, I'm into it. All right, Well, thank you, Luke, good luck on the wedding. Thanks for checking back in all right, Episode five, work sharps not to sharp moments, play the jingle fill sharp, not to sharp moment so you don't have to All right, this is a good one. We're gonna run through this quick because we gotta get to Ivan. Um Mike pu pe u h anybody wrote this? The fanatic spelling out for me? B W Mike Pugh. He says, I just returned from a much needed vacation with my wife my two boys. Let me quick aside before we get the Mike story. Do you should we give out people's full name? I think if they provide them, yeah, that means their their fault. I would provide they knew they You're part of this. You're trying to get read on this podcast. Sorry. We went down to the Florida Keys with our boat and stayed in our favorite hotel for about a week. The hotel sits on a very narrow channel that gets extremely shallow at low tide. My sons aren't quite old enough to drive the boat, and my wife has no desire to ever learn. The majority of the boating responsibilities fall on my shoulders. So like any good Keys vacation, there was some heavy drinking involved in the evenings, which would cause me to get up in the middle of the night and drink about a gallon of tap water. I'm sure most of you can relate. However, if you've ever been to the Keys, you know there is a unique smell to the tap water. Yes, I've been to the Keys many times. When I filate the day's catch, I have a habit of eating some raw as a snack hold me over until I cook dinner, which is generally completely safe given the right considerations. I believe it was a combination of tap water and the poorly handled raw fish and heavy drinking that led to the following events. I mean it sounds totally on the line to me, I don't think anything could go wrong. No, it sounds it sounds like everything is great in your stomach at this point. One day, we wanted to anchor up at the sand bar after fishing. It's a short distance away from our hotel, maybe a quarter mile. I got to the sandbar, cracked a beer, took a sip, then I jumped off to go set the anchor out. As soon as I've been over to put the anchor in the sand, I felt my stomach grumble and my butt cheeks immediately clinch. I knew something was wrong, like really wrong. I needed to ship, and they needed to ship. Now. This was not normal. Bubble guts or b gs I called them. My first instinct was to wade out deep into the water and take care of business, but the current was not in favor of the other sandbar attendees. Smart I quickly had my wife and kids look back into the boat for a speedy run back to the hotel. As I meant and before, the channel is narrow and shallow, especially at low tide. As I was navigating the channel making the last turn, another boat approached, which was generally no biggie, but my buttole muscle gave out, and I again to ship. This seems like the climax of the story. I looked at my wife and she instantly knew I was starting to ship. I threw. I threw the boat in neutral and hurled myself off the boat and held on while the initial blast took place inside my shorts. The water at this point was about waist high and littered with you guessed it, jellyfish that like calmly at the bottom until disturbed. Well, I disturbed them. The oncoming boat had just seen this and adjusted according into deeper water. I'm now shipping my brains out, trying to keep the boat from getting stuck in the shallow water, and devising a plan for getting back on the boat without getting ship everywhere. Then back to the hotel room without everyone noticing my ship filled shorts or ship running down my legs. Meanwhile, the jellyfish are now in full sting mode. I mean, I don't know how, I don't know how this ends, but this has got to be in the top three, not so. I told my wife to grab a towel. I stripped my shorts and began to jump back into the boat, shitty ass flapping in the wind just as I'm getting my butt up into the air. Lady some might call her Karen, made it a point to come out of her third story balcony and struck me where the channel was. I politely said, I was aware as I stood up, butt naked with a shitty jellyfish stung ass. Oh, Karen, Oh mind you. I probably could have tossed a beer to someone on the dock from where we were. We were very close to the hotel dock. I just couldn't hold it. It's not like I gave up my butt hole just failed to stay closed. I successfully docked the boat and walked up to the room only only wearing a towel, showered, and headed back to the sandbar to finish my beer. That's the most triumphant part of this, the fact that he wasn't so ashamed and so in pain by the jellyfish sting on his ass that he didn't just like, watch a golf match or something and stead I'd say it's I'd say it's a it's noble. I'm not sure if there's just another ship in your pants story or not so sharp moment you'd be the judge. Thanks for great podcasting. Keep up the work all from Mr pu Mr Mike Pugh. Play the jingle Phil sharp not so sharp moment so you don't have to man, Uh, that's up there, that's up there. And this one has a lot of visual elements where you can picture yep, him just trying to climb back in the boat. Just welts. That was a rough one. That was a rough one. And I I grew up going to the Keys. My family in a house down there, vacation house growing up, and then I stayed down there a while after I graduated. And the Keys is a forgiving place though there's there's you know, there's a lot of drunk people doing a lot of drunk things down the Keys. So this is probably you know, three on the on the one to ten scale. Appreciate you seeing the yes. Okay, Well, remind me to stay away from the Florida Keys anyway. Mike, you for all this, uh should be ashamed of yourself and and um apologize to your family. But also you're gonna get a work sharp field sharpener for your efforts. As always, go to work Sharps YouTube channel. Check out their weekly hot tips on how to sharpen your knife over there at work sharp. Now we have to get to the most important thing of the day, Phil, Um, what you're about to hear from Ivan. You're about to hear Um the opportunity for you and I to be part of a brain study. Yes, you you asked me something about this? Yeah, so what you'll hear it in the interview. I don't want to. I don't want to break any news here. But there's a chance that they could study my brain and Phil's brain and compare the two. Meaning I'm hoping this one. I'm hoping that, as I described, even this one I would hope for is that they would hook me up to some you know, brain monitoring device, hook you up to a similar, if not identical, brain monitorvice, and show us pictures of different animals to see how my predatory brain would react and how you're non hunting, soft, mushy brain would Yeah, yeah, um, what do you think that sounds? That sounds fascinating. I'd love to do it. But what if this steady takes place after you take me hunting and my brain just what if we're rewired? Yeah, what if we do before and after study Okay, because you've already been motivated by the Chuck Norris, that's true, and the David Hassel enough yeah, the um and so maybe your brain already is starting to shift. But I imagine, I do imagine, like, and I think about this legitimately, if they showed me like a running bowl elk bugling across the meadow, I would be immediately thinking of shot placement or where I had to get to cut him off. And you would probably well, one, look at wonderful, look at the flowers. Beautiful, Yeah, beautiful meadow. Look at the yeah, peaks in the back, snow covered peaks, glacial peaks in the back, exactly. Um, so maybe we'll get there. Yeah, And I'd say vice versa. You know, if they showed me a picture of like a PlayStation Platinum trophy and they showed it to you, like, I'd tell me started sweating, and I'd be like, I don't know what You're like, I don't know what that is. Looks nice? You should yeah, clean that up a little bit. Um, all right, Well, here we're gonna go. We're gonna get to Ivan. And well, I I said a little bit earlier, I do think all the silliness, all the things, all the ship stories aside. This is the the This is the quintessential THHD episode where we talk about all kinds of random stuff, Chuck Norris and ship stories. And then we move on to a neuro scientist. Here's our friend, Ivan d Arajo. I have an hour, you, sir, I am great, Thank you, well, thanks for coming on. I think we have a lot to learn. I know I have a lot to learn, so excuse some of my questions that sound that are coming from a layman's perspective. But before we get into neurology and predatory behavior and trying to understand the brains of ourselves as predators and predatory animals that we know aren't so interested in um, tell us how you got started in neurology and and the study of predation moreover, Yes, so I started out to buy analyzing um brain images of humans during feeding behavior. So my actual background, more than biology, is in computer science, and I I did work on AI and and I started out on my PhD by analyzing magnetic resonance imaging brains of humans during feeding behavior. So that's how I got into the field of feeding behavior. So I got really interested in it because feeding is basically the most important behavior of all classes of behaviors. Without food, you can to do anything else. You cannot um fight your enemies, you cannot made to procreate, and everything else is secondary if you don't have enough energy. So I got fascinated by how much of the brain is taken by this very basic behavior. So I got into this field by by analyzing humans. I studied how the human brain codes for tastes, aromas, and flavors and things like that. And then I moved into more experimental models later on, where we studied with more detail or the secretary of the brain that controls this type of behavior. But that's basically how I got into it. I headed this more quantitative background that led me to a laboratory that was specialized in feeding but needed someone to look at these um images, and that's how I started. Yeah, I mean, I'd love to to kind of go through what you learned studying the human brain and feeding. I mean, I know there's so much that that we don't know, and there's so much activity that we do that's just inherent that we don't understand the function of. And so what you know, what are the top line things that you found out as you as you look at those brains and looked at m R s and kind of study what feeding means for neurology. Yeah, I think one one thing that makes some not very exciting, but in some way it is is that the human brain is extremely similar to the primate brain in terms of which areas in code or respond for food is stimuli. So we have a very direct homology between the human brain and the primate brain. And then because the primate brain is also related to other, let us say, lower species, then we can clearly see that the human brain preserved um a lot of the let us say, the the old secuitary associated with feeding. So clearly we are a product of millions of years of evolution and a lot of the secret is conserved, right. So this is one aspect that is very clear. Another one I think is the fact that or is the importance that thing like memory and the and the subjective evaluations play in our appreciation of food. So the way memories, even childhood memories, and the influences by cognitive queues like what people tell you and especially like the time of the day, these are very important factors that influence a lot the way the brain responds to food. So um. So I think these two properties, the the the the conservation of I mean with regards to other species, and also the influence of other factors like the memory and the time of the day. These are very marked and the very clear um um modulators of how the brain respond to food. Yeah, is there as you as you start to think about that, because explain the circuitry that remains from our ancestors and through our evolution. Modern eating is so different, and it's you know, we're so wired to eat for comfort. We eat for a lot of different reasons. How does how does the brain handle that? The change in motivation, I guess maybe a good way to describe it from from the evolutionary eating eating for hunger and eating for survival to eating for the reasons we do in the more modern sense. Yeah, exactly. So this is a very complicated question, and and that's a very interesting one, and a lot of people believe that this isn't at the heart of the reasons for why we develop obesity and diabetes at epidemiological levels, right, So I think one idea that cleared out over the years and and it's very consistent is that we still use our primitive brain, the brain that was in port and for survival in early evolution, in our modern society. Right. So the brains that evolved to take the opportunity to get food whenever available is still operating in this modern environment where we have an surplus of food. Right. So if we look at feeding behavior um in the in nature and when we get into the hunting story, this is going to become more clear. Eating behavior is a very opportunistic behavior, right, And the reason is that rather than letting hunger or your physiological need to control your behavior, the best strategy for survival is to take food whenever it is available. Right. So, because what you want to survive is to start energy in your body in in in mammals, it's mainly by accumulating fat tissue. Right. So the chances of survival in times of scarcity increase a lot if you are able to store energy inside your own body so that you can use it when you cannot have uh food external food available. So the the this property of the brain that to let animals surviving nature is there still pretty much alive in our h in our modern lives. So whenever we have the opportunity to eat even if your our bodies do not demand energy, we are going to eat right. So you may be crossing, like you may be walking down a street and you are thinking about something else, about your next podcast or something, and then suddenly you see a sign that appeals to you, like a bakery or a certain restaurant, and suddenly you feel this urge to eat right. Or you see something sweet in front of you, even without you having any feelings of hunger or nutritional deficiency. You you are going to think it is a good idea, or you're going to find it irresistible. So this property of taking the opportunity to restore energy whenever available is um is very important for survival and is what is leading us to this overweight or and obesity epidemic because basically, we take the opportunity to eat even when we don't need to. And now, because it's so easy to have food, we can have food at any time, we can order, we can go to the supermarket, um, the the the, Then we we just go for this surplus of food basically because the old brain secretary is still there operating as if we were in a in a more difficult situation in a time of scarcity. Yeah, is there is there a different satisfaction you know, in the in the evolutionary sense, because obviously, if you're you know, if you were an early hunter, you're the satisfaction you got from eating was one survival you knew you could get to the next meal. But now the satisfaction we get is seems more pleasure based. Um as I try to just like work through you know what you're saying in the modern the modern way we eat as opposed to how we evolve. Yeah, this is Yeah, this is another complicated question, and it comes back to the notion that I mentioned about memories. Right, So one property that animals developed and that includes humans that is very clear, very conserved, and very rough, but is to learn about nutrients. So when we eat something that has calories or is very nutritive, we are going to remember it and the and that the the advantage we get out of the energy somehow transforms in our brain in the ability to find something pleasant. Right. So, for example, there are classical experiments showing that if you give an animal a borring flavor, say some weak grape juice with no calories, right, and then you let the animal drink this, but you pare this drinking with the infusion of nutrients directly into the stomach, then the animal will develop a very strong pleasure or motivation to eat this. This borring drinking the future. Right, So when we associate energy with something that we eat, we attribute reward to this component that is paired with with calories. Right. So a lot of what we call pleasure based eating is actually derives from the fact that in the past we ate these foods, we acquire the energy, The brain reward system detected this energy, and the formed this association between that food and the physiological advantage, the survival advantage, and we developed these preferences that we think are innate. We think that things taste good in natally, but there is a lot of learning going on throughout our lives that built up this feeling of pleasure over time. Yeah, this is this question I can't help but ask it now. This is kind of the ultimate question I was thinking of, along among a few ultimate questions. Actually, but when when I kill, When I go out and kill an elk, for example, if I just take my own experience, I go kill an elk, I have this challenge where the gamelike quality of of a basically a predator and prey interaction. Or I kill this elk, I cut it up, I bring it home, I butcher it at my house, I freeze it, I get it out, I fall it, I cook it, I eat it. I always explain, and many hunters will will relate the same experience where it's so there's so much more pleasure in eating it. The taste is magnified or amplified. You feel something way different than if you just went to the store and purchased that the same a similar chunk of meat. It certainly elk meat certainly looks more robust, more nutrient based. It's certainly, and it gives you a different energy. And so I wonder if if part of that is this nutrient reward you're talking about or something else. This Yeah, yeah, this is very interesting. I don't think there is a lot of research exactly on that. But but to the but the as I was mentioned in the beginning, the the ability of the brain to sense a taste and now our ability to derive pleasure from it is highly dependent on the associations that we form, right, So all the cycle of behaviors you described from capturing a prey and eating it and absorbing the nutrients. This, all all these elements um involved the brain reward circuitry, right, so they reinforce each other into a pattern of sequential behaviors that that become a unit. Right. So the ability to this this greater pleasure that you made rise by eating this food that was, let us say, obtained through capture, is associated with the pleasure that is linked to all the other parts of the behavior that the capture itself, the obtaining of the nutrients, the gut sensing of the nutrients, and so on. So I think that, as I mentioned this, this conscious perception of a better taste is actually modulated by a number of unconscious processes, some of them coming from the gut, that increase the reward value of a taste in such a way that we consciously attribute to this greater pleasure, to the taste itself, to the chemical that we have in the mouth. But this is pretty much a central process that is influenced by other events that took part uh that took place in at different moments. I don't know if that makes it better, ruins it, but at least more Yeah, exactly, Well, yeah, I mean I think yeah, And and then there are all the type of cognitive influences that you may that may influence that that impression you have. Yes, I think that's that is the core question that we talked about on the show a lot. Why do we why it in the modern sense to be hunt where we don't need to um? Why? Why do we feel so satisfied by it? Why is it so fulfilling? Essentially, why is there so much value place in this? Why are we so why? Why are we we so fueled by this act, both the activity and the end result. Yeah, I think that it is very similar to the question of why we have we feel pleasure out of eating something when we don't need to eat, right. So that's basically because all feeding behaviors are intrinsically linked to the parts of the brain that control reward and pleasure. So every aspect of eating produces this pleasure even when we do not have the physiological need. So the question of why someone would hunt and kill and and feel this appeal, I believe it's very similar to the question of why someone would have desert even after a large meal. It's because the circuits that operate feeding are is still very much alive in our brains and uh, and and that they haven't not been selected out. That's many people that are opposed to hunting in the modern sense or say that, you know, the this ego, killing and pleasure are all connected, and that's that becomes like there's some sadistic elements to it, and there's an unhealthy connection between this pleasure and this death, and that's something that is so extremely complicated. Um. But it's it's, you know, from a neurological perspective or even from as you're mentioning now, an evolution perspective, it starts to make a little more sense when we think about it from your framing, Yeah, exactly. So clearly this behavior is something that exists in nature and is important for survival and certainly survived or was conserved in the primate brain and uh. And the question, of course that becomes a more society related question is how much of it is justifiable these days? But I think that to the that to the behavior itself is just part of a a very old pattern of behaviors that essential for survival, and without hunting we probably wouldn't be here, right. So, without this ability to obtain energy that moves around that that was a very part of this step in in um in evolution. Of course, there are theories in psychiatry, for example, that associate predatory aggression to to to premeditated aggression or aggression against the target that is not attacking you. So there are a number of situations where people can make links to uh, let us say, psychopathology. But clearly the hunting behavior was there for a reason and emerged an evolution to propel the survival of a very large number of species. Is there a point where you believe that evolutionary link could be broken, like those those circuits that you mentioned earlier on could be you kind of erased or deadened enough in our in our neurology that we're no longer you know, thinking in this way, rewarded in this way. Yeah, this is yeah, this is also interesting. So there are a number of theoretical discussions about whether there's certain aspects of our feeding behavior may be selected out, either because they are no longer needed, right so we don't need to use brain areas anymore for things that we don't use, and also the health impact of our modern feeding habits may actually impact on our ability to survive in the long term. So people have ideas about obesity and diabetes influencing the selection of organisms in terms of their dietary preferences. Right. But so far, um these these traits have not disappeared, or we we we we haven't been around long enough for this traits to be selected out. Some modifications uh in in in our head clearly seemed to indicate that the mode of hunting changed and our and our food preferences changed, and that affected the the genetic background of humans, like, for example, the the size and the shape of the jaws right, and the facial muscles. They are less um uh specialized in in in tearing apart objects like other animals like say cats or or dogs. But we have very strong molar and premolar teeth that are are are very optimal for say, mastication and the trituration of the plants and so on. So there are some slow modification that happens over thousands of years, and it may be that this tray to this pleasure that we derive out of foods without physiological need may eventually disappear. But so far it does seem that our brains um are very much like the ones of humans when they were surviving in the savannas and making the most out of it. Yeah, it's incredibly interesting. We've talked about this on the show before where my I have a three year old son and he when he picks up a rocky throws it, and that I never told him throw it or don't throw it. I never told him what the consequences of throwing it would be. And we've had other folks on that say, well, that's that's coming from that. How we evolve to you know, survive and to eat and to affect the world around us was to throw things, Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's very important that these behaviors are not let us say, do not require excessive planning. Is something almost automatic or instinctive, right, and that obviously increases the efficiency. Yeah. Yeah, And it seems to me that our instincts in that way, especially when killing animals and eating them or you know, those predatory behaviors are they're pretty robust, like the over millions of years they've remained in our circuitry, um, you know. And so that balance between like from the Industrial Revolution, when we starting to soften that those desires and make them obsolete in some way. It's it's it seems it's it's good to hear from you that they're they're robust enough within our evolution that that you think they'll remain Yeah, exactly. I mean that that that it's a very um, almost universal behavior. There are some species that adopted out UM, but the the the evolution of the jaw right, it's very intrinsically linked to the ability to hunt other animals. And that conferred, for reasons that are not totally clear, an incredible evolutionary at advantage if two animals that developed this this new articulation in the head that we call it job Yeah, yeah, and I think um. And one of the reasons the reason why I first read your original paper that we talked about, and we'll get into that here momentarily, was that I went a couple of weeks ago at a Yelsta National Park here in Montana, and we tracked a mountain lion with a park biologist, and we went and looked at some kill sites and we talked about, you know, how these predators move across the landscape, their territories, their habits, you know, their biology, the ecology of the situation and it started to click to me, like, how did their brains work? What is happening here to propel them um in a in a predatory sense. In this case, this mountain lion had killed seventeen ungulates within a two month period um, And so you know, it really propelled me to think more, is there some study of the of the brains of predators to tell us what's happening and then explain to us maybe along the way, why we feel about them the way we do, and if those feelings are correct, because just um, if you allow me an explanation of how I think it plays out in our community. One side of the fence often thinks of predators as a competition for the modern hunter. Right, you're killing that all the elk, That mountain lion is killing all the elk, or the wolves are killing all the elk um, so we need to eliminate them or not to have them around. And there's another side that seems to celebrate a more um top down approach, a more full ecosystem approach, like welcoming those predators. And then you also have the habitation elements of living around places where mountain lions live. That's not you know, if your poodle gets eaten, that's not very pleasant. And so we end up having that that dichotomy in our in our world, where you either meet someone that completely of whores and hates predation and predators, and somebody who seems to be more a little bit more accepting of them or celebrating of them because they are charismatic and they are interesting to us. So that's kind of where I came from. I don't know where you want to start with all where you think the best place to start with understanding what it is. But you sent me a book called The Authology of Predation, and it starts in the introduction by just talking about what is predation and how do we how would we describe it? And I think maybe that's a that's a good place to kind of get your you know, your initial thoughts on. Yeah, I think that this is a a very interesting topic and we we um don't know much about it, right, so why do we um? What seems to be clear is that predation, as being part of a limentary class of behaviors, they have some intrinsic or innate patterns associated with it that are ingrained in the brains of many animals. So if we look at studies performed in the past on species that are, let us say, simpler in terms of their brains or how their brain operates, especially reptiles that sometimes are fierce hunters, we're going to see that there are some aspects of the sensory world that are very important triggers for the display of the hunting behavior. So in some species, just the detection of something moving is sufficient to trigger hunting behaviors, and in many cases an evaluation of the size of this moving object. So when animals see a certain pattern of biological movement and the UH they assess that the size of this object is relatively small, then there is almost as if there is an automatic trigger for the display of predation. Right. So um, as I said before, the they stimulus to hunter does not seem to come from the physiological need of the body, but from an appeal that comes from outside and UH and that this this display of the behavior engages the brain reward secretary through a number of connections. So this automatic motor behavior that is triggered by the detection of a moving prey is um reinforced or enhanced by the activation of neurons that are responsible for the feelings of pleasure, let us say so. So that's basically I think that would be the simplest way to understand how the behavior is generated and why it produces the subjective feelings that it does, because evolution somehow selected circuits that whenever a prey like is stimulus is present, the whole pattern of neuronal activations is initiated, and that involves both the display of a very well defined series of motor behaviors, but also the engagement of this um neurotransmitters in the brain that are very important for the sensing of pleasure and and reinforcement. Yeah, this this As I was reading about this, it's something struck me. You know. It was explained that, like, if you're thinking about predation, if you're thinking one animal feeding on animal feeding on something, or essentially one animal feeding or one another, what you're saying, I think is that, you know, it's the consequence of the action of predation that kind of sets it apart, because there's mutilation or destruction of an animal that is offering resistance um agans being discovered or being harmed, and and then the comparison made to like a parasite is also looking to harm or eventually kill what it's feeding on, but it's not looking for that resistance. It's not it's actually looking to keep its host alive long enough to complete the life cycle. So that's that's something that struck me about understanding predation. It does have this element of hunting and resistance baked in. Yes, exactly that that's the Yeah, that's exactly that and the and uh, this resistance element is probably, let us say, automatically detected by the brain by the moving pattern. Right, so the praise they escape and you want to overcome there the escaping skills of the prey by performing an even more optimal motor sequence that we will lead you to capture the prey. And uh, and that that trait, that link between detecting biological movement that you can interpret as a type of resistance and the production of motor behavior seems to be an element that is basically the core of hunting behaviors that we find from insects to to higher vertebrates. Yeah. And it was also interesting to read a little bit and learned a little bit about the the difference between types of predation or types of predators specialists and generalists, and how those specials and generalist kind of manifest and as a type of like well maybe there's more food, maybe there's less food, as a response maybe to their environment. Is that right? Yes, exactly, So then you have the whole layer of of possibilities, right that are basically determined by the environment and the physiological need of the animal. Right. So, for example, rodents, they they they are hunters, unlike what people think, even the small rodents, they are very fierce hunters. But they will they will go for things like an insects and uh and larvae and the other objects. So they tend to be more omni for compared to other species because they have a higher range of choices. Right. Airs let us say, if you think of a big cat, what would be a advantages for them to hunt is more restrict right, because they need more energy. And also they will develop skills and body features that fit to the prey that living their environment. So this basically construct of the brain coordinating different parts of the body, the jaw and the limbs um will is conserved. And then you have variations on how this is executed and when the behavior is triggered depending on the environment of the animal. Yeah, and there's a lot of a lot of this too. You know, we're also looking at different types of hunting within the predatory world, like communal hunting. Um, I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing wolves would fall into that communal hunting ructure where they hunt together. Yes, they coordinate, And maybe a mountain lion like the one that we saw on a yellowstone is solitary hunters, and maybe things are happening differently there in that circuitry. Can you talk a little bit about the behavioral aspects of success and what and and kind of how that all lines up. Yeah, exactly, So, I mean we don't exactly know how these different strategies play in terms of how the brains are constructed, right, So, so different animals will develop different strategies. For example, some animals they have the ability when they detect a prey to kind of freeze and become immobile so that they are not detected by the prey. So some species clearly have these brain function that others do not to display the the ability to hunting groups is also very important. It seems to be a same show for prey for hunters. That is specialized in larger prey. Right, so you need several of your own to um to be able to overcome a large prey. So in some species, like wolves, they seem to have developed the brain circuits that understand what the other members of your group are doing, so that some sort of basic strategy is on display whenever there is a hunting behavior. And this seems to be particularly important for humans. Right. So when humans is started to live in large communities and developed communication skills, their the ability to overcome larger prey by cooperating developed, right and that probably uh some authors believe that this is related to the relatively small size of the human jaw, right, because when you're hunting groups, you may be able to kill a large prey without having yourself to go and bite the neck of the prey for example, and and and asphyxiated or or something like that. So so this ability to communicate, this development of a communicating brain changed hunting strategies, facilitated the development of new bones and new muscles in the head of of humans and uh and uh. We are still to understand exactly how the brain encodes this ability in an efficient way, especially in early hominids. And in including primates, right, So many primates they have been shown by athologists to be able to hunt in groups and uh, and that they are very efficient. Right. So so this group as opposed to individual prey hunting, UH, to covert primates are certain groups of primates and and we still don't know exactly how the brain is able to operate to this type of behavior. H. And you think of as well, like the variety of hunting tactics out there with with predators, UM and thinking about how those things developed. There is this back and forth right about the prey species UM, many of which I hunt, that are developing unique ways to avoid certain predators. Right, because we already kind of established that different predators summer general, summer opportunistic. We talked about that UM with Dr Dan Stayler a couple episodes ago for those listening that remember that conversation that wolves hunt so differently than and they're not as good of hunters as mountain lions, things of that nature. And so they're developing both the prey and the predator are kind of trying to outinvent each other. Yeah, exactly, like an arms race, Yeah exactly. There is a Yeah, I mean people who study um hunting behavior and in the very specific ecological natures, they show you have some incredible back and forth between the predator and the prey overcoming each other and in such a way that, yeah, there is a continuous arms race and that the so if you are if you are not able to capture your prey, then you're going to die of hunger. Then there is there must be some mutation that confers an an advantage. Joy is slightly different animal. So certainly the development of for example, group hunting is certainly one of those situations where animals had to develop a new strategy right to to overcome prey today individually would not be able to. So yeah, it's a very interesting back and forth. And even to study the specialization of sensory modalities in the nervous system, how audition or vision developed, A lot of it, if not most of it is propelled by the ability to aid their hunt or escape a hunter. We see that in in in the modern sense, I see that quite a lot where you see animals that are conditioned to do things, and conditioning being a lot of what we end up experiencing its hunters. You put pressure on an animal in one way and moves and adapts to do something different. You put. You know, I've seen I have. I've had a recent elk heret. I've been tracking that. Last year they were up in the mountains this time of year. This year they're out in a field laying under a pivot in the summertime, having water spread on them from the agriculture O pivot. And so you see how that conditioning must be impacting everything that both of these things, you know, both predator and prey do. So we see it, I mean, yes, exactly, like yeah, Like, for example, there are species of rodents and the lower animals that are very good in detecting the smell of the urine of certain classes of predators and that scares them out and they learn to avoid these niches in the future just because they detected the smell. So they are parts of the brain. Yeah that let us say, upon detection of a danger queue will condition the animal to change their behavior in the future. And uh. And the better you are at it, the better your nervous system is in terms of um uh detecting these skills, the more advantage you have against the europe bought it. Yeah, I think it gets to eventually gets to I'm probably skipping ahead of your wise, but it's another one of the core questions that I had for you to see how you would would tackle this. We have often we call it here charismatic megafauna, where we're attracted to bears, grizzly bears and mountain lions and wolves and these these apex predators in these landscapes were more we seem to be more attracted than them. Many of folks that are against hunting are most prominently against these types of of hunts. You know, there's a huge battle for wolves and for grizzly bears and different things of that nature here in the States. So have you thought about why it is? You know, what is is it everything we've already discussed that that we're seeing ourselves in them? Or is there just the how charismatic they are, how we can see them having come of humanistic activities? Um, you know what, what is it? From your perspective? Yeah, I mean, I am not sure. This is a good question, and uh, it's a great it's a great question that involves quite a bit of human psychology, right because when we think about charisma and other uh properties, we we we certainly have some reflection about it that maybe other animals don't. I mean, I think one way to think about it is, um the realization of how wonderful these animals are when they are accomplished hunters. Right, So, the an animal that is an accomplished hunter has such a number of extraordinary skills and uh and the personality traits let us say that we at least attribute to them that certainly influences the way we see them. Right So, even say domain stick cats, the the if you look at an animal like that playing or trying to capture a bird or so, the precision of the movements, the the the the ability that they have to perform extraordinary movements, there, fierce character I think just basic basically um produces on us a a feeling of amazement that we over time uh transform into some sort of protective feeling. Right. So, I think it's basically this rough fact that the the accomplished hunters in nature are in many ways the most amazing or extraordinary special species out there, and that we can't help but detecting this these amazing properties. So that's how how I think about it, is just that they are extraordinarily incredible animals from a biological perspective, how much refinement and evolution is intrinsic to the behavior of these animals. Yeah, that's quite interesting point. And I love the way that you articulated that, because there is this idea that we live, you know, in many comedians friends of mine that you know, Joe Rogan, a friend of mine, has as a comedy bit about this little demon that lives in your house that's a kitty cat. And every time, yeah, every time a potential prey bounces by the window, it's like I remember and it and it is I can never do it as funny as he does it, but it's he's just saying that, you know, trying to make the overall point that you're making. I think that just is, Hey, we have little predators running around our house that they ships in our little boxes that we've made for them, and we and we think of those things differently than we think of a mountain lion or some other thing that that it has the same baked in predatory instincts. And so it's a you know that appreciation is just different. Yes, exactly, it is very different. And the and from say a biology biologist perspective, like to be the the the amount of of precision that is intrinsic to an animal like that, it's just amazing. And and I think the most amazing animals are became this way because they had to become very efficient hunters in their environment. So so there is this link between how incredible and animal is and how much of a fierce hunter it is. So yeah, yeah, And then again, as I was saying about predators earlier, I wonder if there is like a similar I don't know if you would say, like disengagement or a similar unhealthy idea, Because there's one side that says, I love these predators. We should never kill them. They belong in the landscape. And there's one side that says, I love you know, I hate these predators. They're competing with me, um, they're killing my livestock. There, they're the cohabitation just isn't working. And and and each of those two perspectives there seems like there's kind of an unhealthy connection present and even in our evolution. Yeah, this is a very interesting question because in principle, we would imagine that our brains should develop some sort of a version to big predators because they are in principle a threat to us. Right, So, very often h scary images are related the two things that, in some way or another become associated with hunting. Like so if you watch a terror movies, very often you're going to see that the scariest images are related to the display of jaws and teeth and especially a very focused look at you. Right. So, things that look very threatening usually they have their eyes focusing on you, and in many cases they have jaws, so they can this movie producers, they can make a little go girl look very scary when they look at you, and they have big jaws and big teeth. So somehow the fear and the aversion to hunting animals is um encoded in our brains, right and uh. But at the same time, um, we developed this appreciation. This may be a sense of any tation or or our innate interesting learning new skills that is that is highly developing in larger animals like us. So yeah, there is this dicotomy there, and I think this dividing the community may actually UM, let us say, reflect these two uh opposing uh properties that hunters may evolk in the brain. On one hand, fear because we shouldn't be close to them, But on the other hand, the need to use them as examples for learning uh uh skills right that that and this is very human. Humans like to learn new skills almost innatally. Kids are always doing this, and many animals do. Like if you see cats playing, they basically play like they were hunting. You're on Instagram and all ivan, you ever been on Instagram? No? No, I know, not really. I mean I didn't expect that you were. But yeah, you're too busy working on things that are important. My kids are. I mean, they keep telling me about things and I don't know. I think I I probably lost the past tword five minutes after I tried it to something like that. Yeah. Yeah, Well there's something on there called Nature is Metal, and it's an account that's fairly famous where it's just an account that shows the most gruesome aspects of of nature. You know, it's a it's a seal getting getting chomped on by a killer whale. It's a wolf eating uh deer while still alive. It's it's just kind of painting the picture for folks that nature isn't all cartoons. It isn't all you know, if there's so much gruesome parts of nature and then you know, so that's one side that kind of illustrates the point you're making. And then the other one that I would choose is there I follow several prominent wildlife photographers who show this beautiful animal, say a bear playing with cubs or a bear um palling at the water for to capture salmon, and they're kind of like displaying the beauty of these animals. And then you have as the dichonomy we're trying to explain. I think here nature is metal, which is there to say, like, yeah, they're beautiful, but look at how awful this actual act of survival and predation is, you know, for the prey. And so I think I think what you're saying plays out in our society, you know, we and we see it every day. We see people kind of setting up both of those straw men to say like, you know, look how look how gruesome, Look how beautiful? Yeah exactly, I think these two, these two things survived in our breath, and if you think about it, they are both important for survival. Right, So you want to escape, you want to be scared um of something that may eat you, of course, But on the other hand, if if if you want to compete in an environment for the same prey, you would rather learn from those who do it better than you. And I think like, in somewhat subconscious way, these two influences like a play out when we evaluate how much we like certain animals. Yeah, that's it's one of the core questions. I was wondering if you could help me suss out a little bit. And it's it's absolutely makes total sense what you're saying. And I think hopefully for everybody listening as we continue to go through these examinations of predator prey interactions and the importance of these predators and ecosystems that that we that we just think back to this because I think this is a huge, huge important point that you know, examines who we are and what we value and kind of is an is a weird psychological experiment. See how you approach predators and what you think about predators out there in the world. Um, you know, I think that tells a lot about the person that's talking or the person that's examining that that predator. Sure, and yeah, this is my my opinion, but that's how I think about it now. It's I think it's really valuable. So I appreciate that, Um, but we have to actually get to the part of the brain that you really works this feeding behavior you talked about, you know, talking about how our jaws work. Um, forgive me if I butcher this, But it's the center of central amygdala. Is that right? Yes? Exactly, Yeah, tell us a little bit about the the amigdala and what it does. Yes, So the amygdala is part of a um what used it to be called the lim big brain sometimes the rep bio brain, meaning that it's an area that is found in almost every specious and any vertebrate species. Right. Unlike, for example, the more developed parts of the frontal cortex that are very human or at least primate specific, we have some parts of the brain that have been there forever, let us say, since the beginning of the vertebrate lineage. So the amygdala has this name because it has an almond shaped, almond like shape, if you look at the brain, you can find it deep in the brain. It's very characteristic and it has different subparts. Right. So one of the the way anatomists like make they're living is by subdividing these things and giving them complicated names. Right, so um. So one subpart of this almond shaped part of the brain is the central amygdala because of its location, aation and so on. So this central amiguela is a very interesting area. So, as I said, this evolutionarily very old and it's traditionally linked to fear behavior. People believe that this area is very important for the display of fear like freezing or escape behaviors. However, when we were looking more carefully at the anatomy of this area, we noticed that it's a very important area for the control of the jaw. So it I'm not going to get into borrowing details, but basically, the the the arms of this the cells in this part of the brain go down into the brain stem and somehow they control the motor neurons that open and close the jaw and allow the muscles of the jaw to imprint force on objects. Right. So essentially, what we noticed is that by looking at the anatomy and looking at some oder UH studies looking at the activity in this area, we found that these neurons this part of the brain is essential for predatory behavior. So when we selectively destructed the neurons in this area in MINCE, they were completely incompetent in their ability to hunt an insect. They could not kill the insect, they could not capture and uh so they they they became completely unable to hunt. So that was very obvious that these neurons, this small group of neurons, is very important for the efficiency with which the animals hunt. On the other hand, when we did the opposite, when we over activated these neurons, then we were able to produce the display of hunting behaviors even in inappropriate situations. Right. So, for example, we got a little toy, one of these toys like that looks like a bug. We put it moving in front of the mice. The mice were scared initially of it, but as soon as we used some techniques to specifically turned on these neurons, the animals went and run after the toy, and uh we're biting the toy in an attempt that looked like they were trying to kill it, right, so they Basically this is small group of neurons. It's very important for the ability of the body to coordinate two different muscles that display these very stereotypical behaviors. Right. And what is more incredible is that even if you take an animal that is not a hunter, that never hunted a laboratory mouse, for example, that never hunted an insect or anything like it. The activation of these neurons will will be sufficient to make the animal display the hunting behavior, meaning that this behavior is somehow innally encoded in the brain of these animals. Yeah. Like, so you're telling me that you could like give me you could activate my neurons and make me a better hunter. Well, yeah, that's the that's a great Now, this is a great question because we don't really know the extent to lead. These brain areas changed over evolution. Right, So for example, as we were saying the beginning, uh, humans, they developed this ability to say too to hunting larger groups. Right, we have a central amygdala. It's very well conserved. It responds to a number of emotional stimuli. But the extent to each let us say, the joys controlled by the amigdla versus say vocalization that is very important for hunting. Right, may be different between animals like the amygdala, because these areas that control the jaw in addition to biting and killing, they are of course very important for communicating because we need to move the job, the tongue, etcetera. So it may be that this area took is slightly different functions as the type of hunting behavior changes in different species. Yeah, that's it's incredibly interesting, I say that kind of adjustment. Then again, I'm interested in the functionality of how within those mice that you're testing in a lot, how do you activate and then deactivate those neurons. What's the process? Yeah, so this is a process that developed over the last ten fifteen years, and when I was starting out many years ago, I participated in some of the early experiments involving this technique. So basically there is a way now to stimulate neurons with very high precision, known as optogenetics. So it means that we use light to activate neurons. So the idea is basically the following. We uh take a gene from algae that is sensitive to to light at certain frequencies, more commonly a blue light. So this gene is protein that live in algae is sensitive to light. So we can take that gene, put it in a virus, and by injecting the virus in the brain, we can make neurons express that proteins. Okay, so the neurons that usually don't care about, say, blue light, they become sensitive to They become sensitive to light because they now have this protein in their outer coat. And this protein basically allows for changes in the electrical activity of cells. So basically what we do is we express this gene in neurons and we place an optical fiber over the neurons, so we can control laser poses with high temporal precision, and we can activate and deactivate within milites seconds as a given a pre selected group of neurons, and uh and and that's how we do it. So it's a big step forward compared to the old method for a stimulation, which was basically to place a wire in the brain and deliver currents to it. That is much less precise because the currency is spread over large areas. So so this is the technique that now many groups used to to manipulate exogenously. Let us say, the activity of certain groups of neurons that you want to control, is there this is something I'm thinking of. This may be too sci fi for me, and you may just tell me that's that's never gonna happen. But as I was thinking about this originally, I was I'm wondering if there was a way to examine my my brain saying like stasis or my brain just in a normal walking down the street, and then what's happening in my brain particularly probably the center of magdala of when when I release an arrow and I know it hit it's target, or when I you know, finally come up because I've experienced wild emotions, um, when it comes to killing an animal for food, um, wild wild emotions, tears, uncontrollable laughter, just celebration like nothing else. Um. I felt the feelings of community and connection with other human beings I feel are a little bit more concrete in these activities. And I always wondered, is there a way to like what's happening in my brain during those moments and then what's happening as I'm just hanging out podcasting with you? Yeah exactly, I think that, I mean you you could perform like a UM, I don't know, I don't think this has been done, but you could perform, say imaging studies where you somehow simulate in a scanner a situation where you would be in the in the hunting mode, right, And uh, it seems to be that to me. That the this UH joy that you derive out of it is the product of previous associations, right where the act itself becomes UH more and more strongly associated with the feeling of pleasure, and there must be the involvement of UH neurotransmitter systems that are related to pleasure and reward and so on. So I guess that like people have made these studies, like say, for example, people who have I don't want to mean to compare the situation, but like, for example, suppose someone who there are many studies on people who developed addiction to drugs for amputure, cocaine or fetamine. So when they are in their scanner and they are shown images of say syringes, or of the drug itself, or even of people associated with the provision of drug, then all these systems in the brain linked to reward and pleasure are activated, right. So and it's very clear compared to pictures that I would say are more neutral, so um and and this is because this primary stimulus that is very pleasurable becomes associated with other cues, and the brain anticipates the pleasurable outcome and activated the networks in sequence. So I would say that certainly your brain would look very different. Uh, when you were shown images of hunting, for example, or of prey compared to whether you are shown something that is not moving, even food that is not moving. That would be a very interesting study showing say, moving target prey and comparing it to bring responses to just a food on a plate for example. Yeah, like if you if you showed me an elk and a kitty cat, and then you showed a non hunter an elk and a kidy cat, well exactly, Yeah, what would be the difference as well. Listen, I'm all in for that study. If you ever get it going, I will be I will tell you study my brain. I am happy, happy to do that. That is super interesting. Yeah, it's super interesting. What what do we know is that the brains of animals that eight after hunting versus eight when after versus when they eat just regular food that was just sitting there, they look different, right, because you engage very different systems for the obitani of food. Eventually the nutrient sensing in the brain is going to look similar. But certainly there are major differences there that I would bet would look very obvious. Because there's been some other report that you know, some more surveys and things where people are trying to determine the why of hunting, and a couple of a couple that I've read and well, I'm attempting to get some of these folks have done these studies on have landed on this term achievement as one of the main factors of why people hunt, or at least kind of the reward system for doing it, the motivation for doing And I think, after hearing a lot of what you're saying, achievement is a very um nebulous term in a way that we might say, I'm this achievement. I feel, I feel rewarded by the antlers on the wall, but I'm also feeling this very innate achievement of you know, predatory selection and of being a competent predator and all these things that are so connected to our neurology and also just to to who we are on an evolutionary scale. So would you if someone came to you and said, well, we we interviewed, you know, ten thousand hunters in and they and overwhelmingly achievement was the thing that they selected out is the reason they hunt the most. How would you kind of think about that term. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that that requires some yeah specification. Right, So we certainly humans have few achievements, um for things that are not obviously i'd advantages for from our evolutionary perspectives. Say, when we save a puzzle or a mathematical problem, right, we feel very good. We have this feeling of achievement, and the purpose of it is not clear, especially to people around you. Right. But the so so there, because hunting has such a biological importance, it certainly has something more intrinsic to it than just achievement itself. Right. What um maybe true is that the ability to hunt and the feeling of achievement uh generalized in more complex species like us in two other things. Right. So if we think, say sports, for example, right, our ability to chase a ball and get it and then hit it on us in a very specific location, um, and and other activities that bring us uh the feeling of achievement. They maybe, let us say, situations that our culture created that some how are related to to hunting, right, very much like say, um uh, like cats like a small cats, for example, when they play, they play like hunting, They are not hunting. They certainly have this feeling of achievement when overcoming their siblings or something like that. But but the the reason why this behavior is there is probably like the development of a greater hunting skills. So I think that it may be some sort of byproduct of a more primary achievement feeling that we derive from hunting and from other activities essential for survival like finding a mate for for sex and other things like that. Yeah, that's really interesting too that, you know, because we have this semantics game and in the hunting world today where we're talking about it as a sport, how do we describe it? Is it a sport? Is it a pursuit? Um? Are we harvest? Are we harvesting the animal? Are we killing the animal? We have this game of certainly elements of a public relations game how do how do people best take in this activity? But there's also I think a struggle within our own minds to say, like is it a sport? If we call a sport, does that give the right reverence to the death involved? Um? And we've talked recently on the show about this game like quality within within the hunting pursuit, where there is achievement, there is this developing of of immense skills. Um, and there is this risk reward system that we're involved in. So um. You know, it sounds like the words sport is a little more interesting than I thought before. Yeah, they may be like a cultural activities that somehow emulate um hunting and or or or hunting like activities that are evolutionarily older and uh and yeah, and they maybe even used as au as a way to say, for those who oppose hunting itself, it may be proposed as a way to overcome this primitive behavior and uh and display it in a in an in another setting in another way or something like that. But I think of that too. Yeah, this basic biological behavior survivors and other activities that somehow simulate hunting and somehow sparts. Could you could think of it as as one possible situation. Well that's interesting. Well I have and I really I think we could probably talk about this all day. I know I could. This has been there's been so many you know what I would just in terms revelations for me and how you're describing some of these essential questions that I've been asking myself and everyone I listen to the show. I think it's probably either ask themselves openly or maybe wondered about, you know, intrinsically. So if if I would would end by saying, if you want study my brain, please give me a call. I I'm really genuinely interested by this idea, and that that that I could understand a little bit more of what's going on, because the core of worth this is an episode one thirty seven or eight of of the show and we'll be doing it for two years. And I think the core ideas why do we do this? And then trying to explain that to other people, you know, to explain these very intricate, complicated activity. Yeah. No, I think woul would be a very interesting and uh we will come up with some good design and certainly will be fun to do that. I would love to do it. So if you keep in touch, and I'll keep bothering you about it until you start studying my brain. Okay, you never know what you're gonna find in there. Yeah, it's good to look very interesting, I'm sure. All right, Ivan, thank you so much for your time and we'll talk soon. Alright, best, that's it. That's all. Thanks to Ivan for that great conversation. Apologies to him for all the silliness and for trying our best to pronounce his name. But a lot to think about there. We're going to continue to kind of dive into the predator conversation, what predators mean on the landscape, what they mean for wildlife biology, what they kind of mean for our understanding of of wildlife management, and also ecosystems in general. I think it's an important conversation. In fact, Phil, in fact, next week we're going to have the return of Doctor Valarious Geist. Oh great, Yeah, I thought you're gonna say Dr Phil medicine moment. I was about to say, this is a terrible idea. We will never bring that dr back this one. Um. Much like since we've we've talked to Dan Flores, Dr Daniel Staylor, many others about getting really getting our minds right on predators, where they've been, whether they're going, cohabitation, and those types of principles, I would say that Dr Geist's opinion is level set completely against um what you hear from those folks and many others thin the conservation community. So we'll touch on that with him. We're also going to touch on his book with Shane Mahoney on the North American model of wildlife conservation. So hopefully you've been reading. This has been you know, at least a month over a month now since we've asked you to purchase that book and read it. Hopefully you've done so. We are going to be asking questions about that book next week on our first edition of the TC book Club with Dr Geist So we're gonna go through that book, um in detail. And if you'd like to ask him a question about that book, if you've read it, if you've kind of taken in its information, you'd like to ask him a question, please do so. Thh C at the mediata dot com, th HC at the media dot com. Um, if your comments and questions are good, insightful, even funny, we'll choose you and if we use you, we'll have a little something for you. So t HC at the media dot com. Th h C at the mediator dot com. If you want to ask Dr vlarious guys a question for episode Numero UNO of the th HC Book Club next week, thanks for another great episode. We will see you next week. Dr vlarious guys, bring your questions. It's gonna be a good time. Say bye film by bye, you know, because I can't go a week without doing roun

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