00:00:08 Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I grew up on an everybody Welcome to the episode A hundred and thirties six films. You ever think we'd make it this far film? Uh No, you thought they? I mean, I still I don't think we should. You should have made it this fire, I said. We I'm gonna say you, I don't think you should. It's when it yeah, because it's always like it's your show, your fans, your listeners, yes, your funk ups. Hey, listen, people are gonna find out a minute what we're up to today. But I just went to the liquor store. It was like nine in the morning. But I went to the liquor store and the guy ided me. He took out my I D and he was looking at me trying to like figure it out. But I had a mask on. How what this is a new You've done that to study the eyes? What if I had sunglasses on? It was it's sunny, this is a new I just wanted to mention that is this is you know, God bless you proprietors of liquor stores. It's tough. It's gotta be tough. Probably a lot of underage rascals getting away with a lot right now. They're looking in your eyes. The guy said, Oh, I thought you were in your twenties, thanks man. Yeah, no, mid thirties. Two kids. I want to go back to sleep, but here I am, So we're gonna I'm gonna tell you why I got that alcohol coming up real quick. Let me just go ahead and give this up. What time is it? Ben? I got a question? What are we doing right now? What does don't even worry about? We'll get to that in a minute. We got a lot of get we got a lot to get to. Um. Last week I was hungover. This week we're gonna be drinking. So maybe I have a problem. Yeah, I didn't. You get very ups didn't someone email you a concerned listener several months during quarantine? Yeah, during quarantine, a certain listener email and to say that I was drinking a lot and that they thought that by might be affecting my parenting. Um, I don't, I don't. I didn't. I responded and just said could be like, I like, how you have You have no problem responding to stuff like that aggressively. But that guy, you were like, maybe there's anything's possible anything. There's no way for me, no way for me. The well, today we have Pete Munich from he's the founder, really the guy behind the Rocky Mountain go to Alliance. Him and I hiked up a four and a half mile trail, gained two thousand feet and ended up at nine thousand five ft sackad we a peak here and near Bosman? Have you ever been there? In phil Sack? Do we a peak? I have not been up there? Now have you been to Ferry Lake? I have? Yep, it's right up there. Yeah, you like that the top of the bridgers, say is the highest highest point there? Yea. So Pete and I hiked up there, um and he kicked my ass like I was way behind um, which makes me think I should probably start, you know, hiking a little bit more Elk seasons coming up. You don't know anything about this because you're prepared for September, like it's true, like you will in the years to come. But I mean, after listening to every episode of Remy's show, I know that you yet you gotta get in shape. You gotta get in shape. So I felt like I was decent shape. But Pete, being the goat man that he is. He got up the hill pretty fast, so I gotta get my stuff together. So luckily we have something coming up that's gonna help me stay hydrated and then get in shape probably too, right, Yeah, like it all together and all together. Um, mountain goats. Today's episode is a lot about mountain goats. Phil, Have you ever seen You've ever been around a mountain goat close quarters? I almost hit one with my car and Bridger Nope, not Bridger Canyon. Canyon. That's the closest I've been. So you So you're gonna be the everyman for this conversation. Mountain goats have become If you don't think about him a lot. If you don't live in if you don't want in the Rocky Mountain region, if you don't live in the West, you probably don't think about mountain goats a lot. Not not a lot of folks and a lot of hunters in this uh in the States get to hunt them. They're over the available, over the counter in place like British Columbia up in Canada, but here not so much. You have to draw a tag in many places. Um, So we don't think about them a lot, but they have become kind of the symbol of an interesting dichotomy within wildlife management. So we're gonna talk with Pete Munich about that. Today we actually hiked up to the top top of sackage we and record a podcast. Phil. You know, I was thinking about, like, is this the the podcast recorded at the highest elevation? Is that a record? I'm gonna say probably not. Probably probably some mountaineering podcast they recorded on you know. You know, we're gonna time taking it called again his book a World. That's what we want. We recorded at nine thousand five feet and we add between two cliffs, that's what we called it. And when the people hiked by on the trail, we asked them certain questions and interviewed. So we had many many guests during the interview. I had a good time with Pete. Thanks to Pete. And that's coming up real soon. But before we get to that, you got a big announcement. Okay, it's a life changing announcement. I'm the show changing announced Now. People just think they probably think, well, advertising, you sell it, people buy it. It's a part of your show. But there's one special kind of advertising that's different than all the rest. Phil, you don't know what it is. It's a title sponsorship, a title sponsorship, and that means that every single episode from here forth you will hear the words presented by or some such thing presented by Element L M n T. Recharge a brand founded by our man, Rob Wolf, who was on the show weeks ago Sacred Cowshow with Diana Rodgers. He's a man. He's a former research biochemist and a a two time New York Times best selling author with Fur the Paleo Solution and Wire to Eat Um. Rob's in shape. Rob's transformed hundreds of thousands of lives through his diet, his workout, his approach to health. He came up with this company, Element, which essentially you're holding the box of it. Phil described to me what you're seeing. That's right. Well, um, I see the logo elemented very clean and simple. I like it. Uh. It's this is called Recharge. It is an electrolite drink mix. Yes, yes, No sugar, no gluten, no fillers, no artificial ingredients, no bullshit. You know. What we don't consume is just as important is what we do. Is what they say, and I believe them. And so we have a few things to celebrate today and I figured that we're gonna make an oxymoronic cocktail to celebrate. That's why I got my I just cracked my pure white claw. You heard a little bit of Okay, we're gonna make an oxymerundic cocktail out Phil. I gotta do a lot of stuff here to make this cocktail. So I'm gonna let you take over the show. During the time I got to open my Element drink mix, I got the raspberry salt. So one thing that I learned in the last couple of years is how beneficial salt is two staying hydrated. Yet now I'm putting my pure white claw in the shaker. Okay, so the number one ingredient in in this drink mix is salt, which I will say. I'm gonna be honest here at first glance, that first thought sounds kind of off putting right right now, But I don't want to drink saltwater. I'm putting the vodka in the little ounce of vodka. However, um I spoke with Maggie Smith of our production. Yes, she was featured on the season eight Season eight of Meat Eater, the one the episode talled Turkey Troubles. I believe I'm not really sure what seasons are. And she is a very seasoned long distance runner. Yeah, oh yeah she is. And she says that nothing is better after a long run then of incredibly than an incredibly salty pickle. She is she loves. She is a long stince runner who who speaks to the benefits of salt. And that is um, that is where this uh, this drink mix comes to put all the ingredients into the shaker. There it is. Oh that's some a smr stuff right there. Oh, no, feels bad. It was like it's thousands of dollars. Gotta you gotta keep your hand on them to the top there. Blew up, Phil, I'm just gonna go ahead. And well, also, you're shaking a carbonated beverage that you're not supposed to do. That's not how you're supposed to add the carbonated the carbonated part later. No, nope, nope, this is fine. So you're calling this so man, please describe why why you're saying this is oxymoronic. I think people can put it together there, Well, alcohol dehydrates, it does, and uh, we're adding a So what I've done here as I've added to fill now the things stuck on the top, Phil, you created some pressure there. Yeah, I don't really think this through. Uh you see, I have had comparable products after a night of drinking because I'm looking for those electrolytes. Ben is leaving the room. He has stood up. Uh he Ben just gave me permission to talk about Star Wars. Okay, Uh, this is sixty three reasons why the Last Jedi is the best Star Wars movie number one. I'm just kidding. I'm not gonna put you through this. Uh God, there we go, fill a nice Okay. Ben has returned and he has removed the lid from the cocktail shaker. Good jabes, you did it. Hey, this is we're doing? This? Is this live next to next year? You're gonna put your hand in a pickle jar and we're gonna see how long it takes you to get it out. Sor right here we go replacing the lid. So that I was saying that I've consumed comparable salt products after a night of drinking, because that makes sense, right, Well, why doesn't this make sense either either the night of or the morning after. But what you've decided to do is mix just put the alcohol right right into the elementary charge. We have reason to celebrate. There you go, Bud, We're celebrating. We're celebrating our the title sponsorship by um desecrating the product. No, we're not desecrating the product. This is we're creating a cocktail. Now. People are welcome to write in the cocktail that I just poured was a couple to fill a smelling it. He's not, he looks the plimpt. I've I've poured some pure white Claw hard Seltzer non flavored. White Claw is a flavor, uh, into a copper shaker, and then I put a packet of Element Raspberry Salt Recharge. And then I've also put an ounce of Kettle One vodka. Okay, I would like to say something on behalf of Element before I drink this. I have had this Element Recharge drink mix the way it We've been drinking a lot the way has it was intended to be consumed. And I think it's great because I've had similar products. I think this is this is just as good, if not better than those products. Okay, So, so I am afraid I'm going to drink this and it's gonna be terrible, Not because not because of the Element, because of your bartending skills. They didn't turn out well, the bartending skills, but we cheers. We have to celebrate the passion of the great American outdoors. Hey, that's right. The House voted last week three to one oh seven. We're gonna take a drink of our now. It's pretty good. D That's that's not bad. Yeah, face Phil, he was over there just making faces at me. That is legit good. That's not bad. So you do you think I'm not a scientist, But what's going on? Do you believe by mixing the products, just just cutting out the middleman, by like waiting until the next morning to get the hydrated, just by cutting up the middle and just putting it together, that you could drink this and maybe avoid a bad hangover. I think you could drink this. You would go further in your drinking night and wake up probably feeling amazing. Yeah, am I wrong? I couldn't. There's only one way to find it's never been wrong before. Let's keep drinking. M hmm, delicious. That is good. All right, here's what we're gonna do. Here's what we're gonna do. I'm just making this up on the fly. Hopefully the folks that Element are happy with me right now. If you let's name let's name the beverage. If if you write into thhc at the meat eatter docum the name for this beverage. So again it is Element Recharged drink mix Um full packet uh pure white claw Hard seltzer Ye vodka. Yes, and shaking shaken together. It is good. It's legit good. It's it's it's interesting because of the salty nature. I like it though. It's got like a kind of like it it's like a it's like I'm not gonna say it's like a martini, but it's not at all. But but I mean, hey, you got vodka and you've got kind of this like salty. It's not not a brine, but you're getting that similar kind of it's not a brine, but you're getting that salt that comes with a dirty martine. Well, thanks for everybody who who row along with us. I do. I do mean this when I say that having a sponsor like Element and somebody like Rob Wolf around it's important for us. And so as we go through this, um support them. They're supporting us, they're allowing us to do it. We do and then make a great product. And that's why we felt that it was something that we could do here and we were gonna just kind of like added to the show without addressing why we made that decision, what they mean to us, and then um, what we can do with their product, namely, make this wonderful, wonderful drink. It's it's I can't wait to see what you guys come up with. Skimpy mic cocktail. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm excited, but doctor yes, uh this this the Element rechart is. It is a good drink mixed though. I've had it on its own, I like it a lot. No, I've been I've been carrying it when we're hiking up the Sack of Jowiah, which you're hearing the podcast coming up. I had some uh in my analogy bottle and then checking trail cans run around the mountains. That's what comes with me when I do. So check it out and let us know what you think and look forward to a whole lot of more Element in the show going forward. Now, we did say congratulations to everybody about the great American outdoor Zacht did pass the House with a vote of three ten to one. Oh seven last week. So thanks to everybody who made phone calls, who made silly videos, who helped us push that thing through. It is not yet finished, but it's looking real good. Trump has said many times he's gonna sign it um, so we believe that he will and that you guys, guy's always been never changed his mind before, so he's always been a straight shooter, that Trump. So we're hoping that he's gonna once. Listen, Phil, I'll tell you this as inside, we're gonna talk about the election when it comes. There's no way that we're gonna be able to avoid it. We're gonna have to drink these cocktails, drink a lot of them. Probably the day of the two thousand sixteen election, I went to a liquor store because I needed to And there's a sign on the front that said it's like liquor store is closed on election Day. Because I gonna assume they were just they knew people like me would be flooding the liquor stares just getting drunk. Hey, Yeah, I was hunting. I was hunting white tails and Alberta, and so I took a break to watch the results and I went back to the tree stand didn't really mean much to me at the time. Um, all right, we have a couple planes. Get to last week during the Great American Outdoors Contest. Do you remember the video filled, the very uplifting video that came from the folks that Get Get Connected Outdoors? Yes, they do. Do you remember while we were listening to it there were audible bird noises in the background and water rushing, water rushing. Yeah, I would say, I mean this is just strictly from audio engineering standpoint. Could have been better, could have been better. Message was great though you couldn't hear them, but you hear the birds voice. But I made you sure. We had to let them know that. But a guy named Brian Collins, I'm taking a sip of my cocktail. People are either gonna love that or hate it. They're gonna hate it. It's like last week. I've tried to give him something to hate every episode. That's one of my goals. Um, Brian Collins wrote, and he said, I have been a birder since age three. He just turned fifty, so he's forty seven years of birdie, A bird surveyor since age since age twenty three. My main career is a high school biology teacher, but I do bird surveys each summer as a contractor for the Wisconsin DNR and other organizations. It made me grit eater here when Ben O'Brien said, somebody right in and tell me what kind of bird that is? I don't remember I said that, but now I do, he said. Here is the list of birds from the Great American Outdoors ACTIVI video. The audio you shared seems to be from the eastern half of the US, in a mixed for generation that very likely contains aspen and hazel, and it's situated very near a wetland that is at least in part a cattail marsh. The birds that painted that habitat picture for me are chestnut sided warbler, yellow warbler, common yellow throat, northern cardinal, Eastern wood peewee, American red start, red eyed vireo, east stern toey, black and white warbler, and a distant swamp sparrow. The bird that sings right when you say what kind of bird is that is a chest outsided warbler, though in some areas yellow warblers will sing a very similar song to that, so if both species are competing for the area, it could be a yellow warbler singing what I call the flat song, and he goes on and on and on about the yellow warbler. Thanks. I never thought we'd get that detailed and explanation about what you were listening to. Also, a lot of birds, A lot of birds there, a lot of bird He was right. It was on the east coast, he said, I hope that satisfies. Check out all about birds dot org as well as eBird dot org to learn more. He said, Phil, keep being awesome. Hey, I'll try a bit. Brian Collins, St. Falls, Wisconsin. Awesome, Thank you, Brian. I appreciate that, and thanks for everybody for for trying. We had a couple of the emails that tried. None of them were yearly as precise. It's Brian Collins. So thanks for burden with us. Bro. We'll do more burden segments here coming up, probably never all right, before we get to Pete Munich, we got episode three of season two of work Sharps not so sharp Moment's playing the Jacob Phil work Sharp not so sharp moment, so you don't have to al right, I'm back cocktail. Hope you guys are thinking about the name of this cocktail, because is it's it is good, it is legitimate. Guy would after working in the yard, or after hiking, or after a long day's hunt. I would drink this consistently all the time. I'm looking forward to putting the other flavors to work. Let's see what I can come up with. I'm looking at the box here. UH. I would just like to give a shout out to their phone number an element. Uh it's eight three three, seven to five, eight nine to three, and the letters of on a dial pad of those numbers is salty, A free salty, A three three salty. Give him a call, because we're so addicted to making you call people, call them and tell them we sent you, and then hang up because really nothing else to do. Hopefully none of you prank call them like last week. But we gotta get this nonster sharp moment. We already played the jingle we can't digrass too far, Episode three, season two. Um, this gentleman has a pretty good story. His name is Dave Daniels. Dave Daniels says this, so I'm excited for season two of not so Sharp Moments. I want to send this story last year, but just never got around to it. I have a story I think most people can relate to, although maybe not as dramatically or hilarious as what happened to me. I was involved in the outdoors growing up in South Jersey. I often accompanied my dad on his deer trips and started hunting myself as soon as it was legal. After a few seasons of ear tating my dad in his stand, he built me my own stand about thirty yards away from his. That it's just a parenting choice. It's like, I like hunting with you, but I don't want you to be in the same blind as me. Go thirty yards that way, close enough that he could keep an eye on me, but far enough that I couldn't bother him needlessly. Pretty pretty nice. Maybe we'll build like two separate little studios for podcasting where we're thirty yards apart. Yeah, that's what I'll say to you. Any thinking I think you should get your very own podcast. I built you a tiny little box in the middle of the highway. We were in these twin stands that were sitting one evening during muzzloor season when I was about fourteen years old. As the evening in the stand drug on, I experienced what I think many stand hunters have the incredible sleep you can effortlessly slip into while surrounded by the sounds of the woods and also freezing to death. Phil, You've never never experienced this. Nope, it is. It's true, like when you fall asleep while hunting. Turkey hunting is the best nap. You can fall asleep for fifteen minutes and you felt you felt like yourself for eight hours. It's It's absolutely fantastic. Now. According to my dad, as I sat there with visions of sugar plums dancing in my head, six of the biggest does he has ever seen, Mosy's out from the briars into the clearing in front of our twin stands. My dad claims that with the intention that I get a shot at one of the massive deer standing twenty yards from me, he tried everything he could for more than twenty minutes to rouse me. That included whistles, go ahead, and that sound effects here filled to him as a That includes whistles, bird noises, chirp, chirp, raspy whister, shouts my name, Dave, Dave all while the notoriously skitness South Jersey swamp deer grazed on acorns just below us, apparently oblivious to the racket he was making. None of his attempts were successful. Still sleeping, After twenty plus minutes, my dad gave up and decided to fill his tags. It's I couldn't be bothered to pay attention to the world around me. He lined up a shot and fired his fifty col Thompson's center muzzle order with a deafening crack. Or at least I assume it was you see. Not even his shot awoke me. He claims that I've looked over at my stand and saw me looking at him through heavy eyelids. He pointed down at the ground and mouth dear as he clearly as he could, trying to get me to notice the other five doughs that had jogged off, maybe ten yards away from their original position, before stopping to see what the sudden commotion had been. According to him, I simply waved at him before allowing my head to slump back onto my chest. I have zero recollection of any of that. The next thing I knew, he was standing under my stand throwing acorns at me. When I realized what was going on, I got down. He explained what happened including that those five other Doughs must have been the bravest five deer to ever walk the earth because they didn't take golf into the thickets until he started to get down from his stand. I was in disbelief. I knew I was a heavy sleeper, but to sleep through a gunshot breaking the peacefulness of the woods. I thought, there's no chance, and he must be messing with me. But sure enough they're in the clearing. Was one big dough shot right through the heart. Needless to say, to this day, every time I returned from the woods empty hand and my dad asked, how is your nap? And the story is retold several times a year at any hunting related gathering. I hope the stories makes you chuckle. I love you, Phil, I love you so much. I just put that at the end, respectfully, Dave Daniel Wait, what so all these people writing in aren't actually saying hi to me? That's just you, that's just me. I just I'm trying to build you up. I don't want you to go to Ronella's show permanently, Respectfully, Dave Daniels, playing the Jingo Phil shot not so sharp moment, so you don't have that's it. Thanks to work Sharp. Go to the work sharp YouTube page and see the work sharp workshop every week over there, And Dave, you're gonna get yourself a worksharp field sharpener for your trouble and you're napping in the woods. See I like that one. That was a very uh it was a very passive, not so share moment that he didn't do anything. He didn't go out of his way to do something stupid. He just took a nap, just took a missed out on a great opportunity. Yeah, I missed that on those yellow warblers that we're probably flying around tweeting away. Well, Dave, thanks, And I will tell you that I'm a heavy sleeper. I nap all the time, especially in the tree stand, especially while turkey hunting. Um not so much while elk cunning and other things. But the midday. You'll you'll realize this feel when you get to actually go hunting one day the hunting nap and the sun is just beaten down and you find some shade, you lean up against a tree. What would normally be uncomfortable is suddenly extremely comfortable, and it leads to some of the best sleep you've ever had. Whether it's fifteen minutes or thirty. So that's how that goes. Um, all right, well, and take another sip of my unnamed cocktail right in to go ahead, Phil, take a sip. I think that's got already. He'll just cross this if you see. If you hear any mistakes and this week's edit of The Hunting Collective, it's because Phil was drunk and hydrated. That's right, right, and that's what you want to be. Those are two things that you want to be in life. Is drunk and hydrated at least, I say, and listen to me. So turning from that silliness onto something a little bit more serious, mountain goats. Mountain goat conservation and management in many places across the country. It's probably, like I said earlier, it's probably something that you don't think about too much, but it is important. It is absolutely something that we should be thinking about because it has an analogous feeling about it. When when you're talking about invasive species strangely and also competition between two species, and so you're gonna hear about that. Think about this as hard as you can through Pete and I up there, what fet So when we're going up the hill. We had a bunch of winds, so you we we might. We're gonna kind of drop into not mid conversation, but early in the conversation and Pete is You're gonna learn a lot about Pete. But Pete it works as a sales manager for Stone Glacier. He lives here in Bozeman, and I think eight years ago he founded Rocky Mountain Go to lines UM as a mid twentiessothing individual. Not many people in their early twenties mid twenties are starting conservation groups, not many at all. In fact, I've never He's the only one I've ever met. I wasn't starting any kype of organization when I was that age UM, and so that's that's one of the really interesting parts of his story. Also his fight against UM goat calling in some of our national parks. UM. There's been two particular interesting cases that we talked about. One was an Olympic National Park, is ongoing an Olympic National Park, and one was in t Towns down in Wyoming. Both of those populations UM are looking to be extrapated, are looking to be taken off those ranges. And as a hunter, as you'll hear us talk about as a hunter and a conservationist. Somebody cares about wildlife. That's tough to see. It's tough to see somebody go up in a helicopter and gunned down any type of wildlife. So this is why to me, this is a very important conversation. We had a lot of fun while chatting. But again, mountain goats have more meaning to me after hearing from Pete than they did before. So enjoy halfway up a mountain, Pete Munich, Rocky Mountain, go to Lone. Alright, Pete, we were just talking about how you know, there's probably a thousand hunting podcasts. No Buddies ever podcast is from from right to spot or here, Probably not in this exact one. No, I feel pretty special. We'll get a couple of hikers coming up. So if they do, if they do come past us, we may have a guest interview. You never know who you gonna run into, you don't, You probably end up knowing them. In a sound like this, yeah, a place like this, talk about sacagew A Peak in this little just so people get a real good idea. I know we talked about a little bit, but get a real good idea of exactly what we're looking at here. Yeah. Um. Bridger Mountains are the kind of the North South mountain Range just north of Bozeman, and zack Jawa is the highest peak. UM. We circled around the east side of the mountain range this morning and accessed the trailhead by Fairy Lake. UM. If you live in Bozeman, you're probably very familiar with it. Um. But they introduced the mountain goats here in the early nineties, and they brought them from the tobacco roots, and there's been a combination of really good habitat, really good minerals, and good genetics and what we have here on the bridges or some of the largest mountain goats. Yeah, you're talking about if you get up up north in Canada, they have the genetics of the twelve inch eleven inch goats, big old, big old stout guys. Um. But in the States, a nine inch goat is is what you're looking after. Yeah, absolutely, If I mean, if you've got a mountain goat tag in your pocket, and any of the lower forty eight states that have goats, that nine tenants goat is certainly a trophy and it's raining and Windy. So if you guys here wind it's just just deal with it, because they're sitting on just deal with it. We're on the eze of the cliff. We're doing all the work. You're probably in your car, you're not doing anything. It's really probably worth the ship and the driving rain on the side of the cliff for you, and it's really for you guys. Um, we have to talk about before we move. I want to understand how a guy just like yourself who works for a pack company just decided to start a conservation organization, because I think every every conservation group has is an interesting origin story, but r g m A has a pretty pretty legit one. But before we get to that, there, I've I'm trying to drum up a conspiracy around Ronnella drawing this goat tag the rich getting richer. So what's your official your official statement on Ronella draw on the goat tag and Montana the coveted. I'm excited about it because I hope I can get to go hunt in with him. Yes, um, so you know it's a it's a hunt for me too, but yeah, you know it makes people scratch their head. Yeah, I don't have a lot of rooms to talk. I've had a lot of luck myself and Draws as have I have. I just I just feel like he sent out an all company email when he got it, and in the head I was just like Ronella draws goat tag and I'm like person and maybe I may be making that up, but he did send it all email out to to our entire company announcing that he got let's go hero lock layer of headline, local television personality and author. He will, yeah, and we'll talk a lot about it. And I think that it opens up what we're gonna talk about here. And as we've already kind of touched on in the in the Windy Basin, you know this, this goats themselves. They're native in some places, non native in others, um which which causes and you know, which ends up with an interesting dichotomy about how we see them, how we approach them. We kind of look at them um as a species within these ecosystems. And that's to me why it's one of the reasons why I want to chat with you for a while, But also I think why people should be more interested in them, because they do represent kind of a nagging conflict Yeah, mountain goats have been successfully captured and relocated all over in North America UM and with a lot of success success stories behind that kind of effort. Unfortunately, sometimes times that kind of proactive wildlife management in the moving or introducing of a mountain ungulate into a habitat where it didn't previously exist, can create some conflict, whether it's with a native ungulate that already calls that spot home, you know, be a maybe a big horn sheep or alpine plant life that perhaps takes a bit of a beating because of the goats being there. But yeah, it is interesting when animals get this uh the deaf kiss of of the being called non native because they're easy to get rid of when they get u labeled that way. Yeah, it's an interesting interesting I'll call it a ploy. Indeed, when you think about folks that are in favor of this um idea of and we should get to the specifics of it, this idea of calling coats and large numbers to eradicate them from a range or any really ecosystem, you think of that as I think if it is nefarious, but that's probably disingenuous on a lot of levels, Like can you break down what you think the like the approaches that we we both kind of disagree with, but there's got to be a legitimate approach here. Yeah. I don't think, uh, the National Park Services are bad people. I don't think that. I think they're actually they're really great people, and they're they're smart and educated, and I think they have good intentions. Um. But to them there, they have a job to preserve natural flora and fauna and that's what their agency does. And to them, they're doing their job and they're trying to preserve a landscape back to a previous time I suppose before the mountain goat was there. So I don't think it's a an evil or malicious thing. I think it's just different parties at the table with different objectives. And that's how I have to stop myself at some point because you because because when you and I'm sure you do this too, when you when you think about aerial gunning of any any animal for the for the nonconsumptive purpose, you just don't think of that. It's a well meaning initiative, but you can't you can't discount where it's coming from. Yeah, sometimes you have to emotion from from management and science. You see something up there that's big rock, big rock, and we're hopefully we got a hiker coming yea, hopefully. She looks like she hopefully she'll be willing to join us. And she looks like she's taking her very serious. She's rolling, she's getting makes me feel bad. Um well, Rocky mount go to alliance? What what brings a person like? How old were you when you started this? Uh, twenty two? You couldn't have been twenty two years old? So most when I was twenty two, let me tell you about story. I wasn't starting any conservation alliances. Well I wasn't. I wasn't making all good decisions of that chapter of life either, but um yeah, it was just kind of one of those things that happened out of it just kind of fell into place. Um. I don't really give myself too much credit because it just just sometimes that's just how the cookie crumbles. And I inquired looking into uh mountain goat conservation efforts and what that looked like and kind of came up empty handed, and then just very quickly teamed up with a local biologist and started orchestrating some ground based volunteer efforts to assist with their data collection, and uh, flash forward eight years later and we've got the continents one and only Mountain Goat Conservation Group. Yeah. I mean, you guys have seven board members. I know you just hired a couple of people. Yeah we did. You know, we brought on a sponsorship and membership coordinator. Really just in a short time poured a lot of gas on the fire. Yeah, it's nice to be paying somebody for real. Oh man, these guys are just crushing and it's just this workload that has has needed some attention for a long time, and these guys have dove right in and we've got a lot of great momentum right now. Yeah, I mean, how does it feel to be able to say that after you just come up with an idea? You see, you know, see an issue, You see a whole in the conservation world, see a species that you know it's not imperiled some places they're imperiled, but you know, just needs some more attention, something you're passionate about. And then down the road somebody's getting paid to support. Yeah, it's it's pretty interesting kind of step back and think about it that way. Um, I have a hard time delegating and hand handing things off, especially when I'm like passionate about it. Um. But the older I get them, the more I learned to delegate, and uh that has been a very productive thing for me. So uh yeah, I like moving in that direction, and it seems like the more people we get involved, the better it is for for the goats and for the organised station. Yeah, do you find what's you know? You guys are eight so years in. What do you find to be the most challenging thing about you know? Because you have to Every organization has like this, this un unspoken mandate to grow or spoken mandate to often. Yeah, you gotta grow, but you also got to do the right thing. Yeah, I think, you know, we started our organization at a cool time where there was a lot of digital platforms available to us. So I think like starting the Elk Foundation back in the sixties is for right, a lot more paperwork than what we do online today, a lot more copy work. But yeah, just you know, if we are just a group of volunteers until recently and finding those dedicated hours to grow the organization into build membership, build corporate sponsors, get more money in our conservation fund, that just requires dedicated people and dedicated hours that I don't always have personally. Well, it's cool because I you guys do the the less than one club there at the sheep show. You guys are part of that. Now we kind of uh adopted that concept and we've we've invented the Billy Goat Society, which is the less than one club version for Mountain Goat Hunters or r m g A members. So if you've never told a mountain goat, you can be in this drawing to when your first goat hunt. I could tell the hiker is confused. She locked eyes on us, and she was She stopped for a minute and she was like, I'm still contemplated when I want to tell her we're doing I think each other. We're trying to like communicate with oat and aircrafters. Yea, I should take my thing on. We're doing it's weather instrumentation. We're looking for a down to chopper. Um. Yeah, I mean I went into you guys booth at the wash sheep Show. It had to be a couple of years ago. Um. And I want to say that your brother, your brother was for sure in there. Your brother's name is Adam and your dad was in there. I think for sure, Jim and Adam and it's rock me at that moment, like this is, you know, as big as these organizations. Yet I'm of course, you know, involved in some organizations in the industry. It's like as big as they get. It's cool as ship to walk into a booze and have you running around crazy, then your dad and your brother signing people up. Yeah, it's a family affair. Um. My dad has been instrumental in our organization since the very beginning, from helping uh get our you know, nonprofit status to just he's been secretary treasurer of the organization since the day one. That's awesome. Yeah, he's helped quite a bit. Yeah, yeah, I feel is he get a stick with it? I mean, what is I guess of The better question is did he get you into all this? No? No, he didn't. My dad does not hunt. It's not fish. No, it's actually kind of interesting, uh super cool guy, badass pilot and the Air Force and stuff, but it was not super outdoorsy and I kind of got myself into it and I was in high school. Yeah, good morning, Hi, how are you? It's is it weird to see people with headphones on up here. We're conducting a survey. We're curious if you enjoy hiking up or down? More down, down? Checking? Pull us out. You headed to the m He's spending the whole day up here. You got some you got some miles ahead of you. Well, we won't stop you. It would be a good day. We're just crazy enough to record a podcast up here. Don't ask us why, because nobody else would do it. It's kind of cold. It's called The Hunting Collective. It's a podcast about while we're looking for mountain goats. If you see any, I'm sure you'll see several today. Yeah, let us know, let us know how it goes. We'll have fun, have a good one, enjoy your day. We'll have a lot of guts. Well, haven't have a lot of guests. It looks like we've at least three more guests in the show coming up. I think we should get set up a chair like a ten questions, ten question a spy. Yeah, take a seat. Yeah, that's it's it's uh tourist season. Although I don't I don't think any tourists are going all the way to the m in a single day. Maybe. Oh this gal here is doing something pretty bad as pretty bad as Yeah, if everybody's familiar with the Bridger Ridge Run, she is re enacting it all in her own right now. That is how far is it over? She's gonna go to Baldy and then drop down. Yeah. From here, she'll head south past nine Nuki, going to Ross Pass, go through Bridger Bowl, over Saddle to Baldy and down to the M. It's a nice little Friday It's pretty hardcore Friday afternoon. Yeah, that's the That's one of the cool things about living in this town as a East Coast kid, like drawls in hardcore folks in all shapes and sizes. People do cool stuff here. Yeah. First time my kid, first time my kid and I were at the M. You know, he loves he loves to opine that he can make it to the top, that I can make Like, buddy, you're three. He's like, I'm not getting on your back. I'm gonna walk. And proud man, he's a proud. He's proud. He's proud Irish man. And the uh first time he saw somebody gliding off the top, he uh that was I think he's probably gonna want to do that to my dismay. But the time or two up there, that's pretty crazy. Yeah, it's a little bit. Anyway, you're back to We got another guest coming. We'll take a break when he gets here. But that's the one thing about you and and knowing you in the industry and seeing how you kind of moved through it that that I think people would be that I am the most interested in, you know, kind of the your reflections on those eight years and and what it you know, what it means to you to get this far and knowing that you've got plenty plenty to travel. Yeah, is just quick to look forward to, Mick. We have so much work to do. There's so much to do. There's so much to do, and I think it is probably appropriate at time to look back at some of the things. We have a calm bushed and the organization that does exist today because of everybody's hard work. And yeah, I'm proud of it. It's my my little brain child. I guess I'm kind of proud of so very much. Yeah, you very you should be proud of it. And so you guys are, where's the money getting spent? Right now? I know we talked about collars, and there's there's there's relocation, there's translocation. There's a lot of things. You got it. Yeah, several things like that going on right now. Uh. We're funding quite a few of the callers being used in the Olympic capture and relocation happening later this month. Um. And then yeah, we've got some ongoing funding for some different research from that that go biome, the stomach study of what we've talked about, the the pellets to Uh. Yeah, there's a handful of other projects. If you get on the rmg IS conservation blog, there's a whole library of different projects. We were working off time to time. But right now we're in the pits of volunteer season, which is when we're traveling around and backpacking into the mountains in different states and kind of doing what we do best, and that's climbing mountains and finding goats. That's not a bad thing to be good at, especially in this country. Um, what are those volunteer to described to people? Those volunteer things and I'm sure a lot of people I want to get out on a weekend, get in shape, see some country, see some cool critters are interested in that's what's that look like when people jump in there. Yeah. So they're typically two to three day backpacking trips where we kind of divide and conquer and different mountain goat management areas. So we'll get a group of call it twenty to thirty people and we'll break up into search teams. We'll scatter out into different areas and then kind of post up for the weekend and we just document every goat sighting, uh with extreme detail, trying to conduct a census. Well, what's there? Good morning? How's it going, Sara? Oh? I think yeah, you kind of just wiggle, you'll make it. Good luck. It's a little steep, it's worth it. Um, yeah we should. We should definitely just put like a chair, like a bean bag chair between two ferns, between two cliffs. Take a seat. Uh, would you like a Seltzer water or a white two cliffs? This guy's got it. I thought for a minute this guy had a little kid. But it's a dog, thank god. Uh you thought that German short hair pointer was a human? Yeah, down there at the bottom, not here, pretty clearly a dog. It's a five yards away that that that wouldn't make me great? Hunter? Is that a child. But I I did tell you the story that a woman country like this the time I was hallucinating Paul. It feels like a flex. It feels like a like a really douchey flex to even talk about it at this moment, but it's real. What's really happened. I was telling you. I think that we brought that up was a mere coming up this steep switch back here that we decided to post up in that I told you that you can get vertigo kind of going up and down this stretch of trail, and you're like, where ago you wanna talk about vertigo? I'm telling you about telling you about vertigo? You know this one time. That's the joking around the office I always make I try to avoid that any of those fucking flexes or just like you know at one time when I was hacking in the interior of Alaska, you gotta avoid that that stuff. But you want to tell your stories, Um, well, I mean we'll get going here and get up this peak. I don't know. I highly doubt when we get up top. That's why I wanted to stop here. Yeah, I'm glad we got to meet some some intrepid individuals. But I highly doubt when we get up top that there will be much in the way of a podcasting going on, although it's pretty quiet right here at the moment. We'll go summit and then if we got to come back off, we will. Yeah. Well, so if you may hear from us at the summit, socker, do we a peak? You may not. Don't just keep waiting. If you don't just keep waiting, this podcast may never come out again. You never know. Somebody finds this tape here a couple of weeks from now, just in the rocks here from now, somebody sliding down this shoot on their butt exactly like is that? Is that a zoom recorder? You check out what's on that? No ship, All right, let's get up there. Alright, we're back between two cliffs, beating Ben. We really should do a show like that. We are right back where we started, right back as I promised you before we left you last the peak of a little windy. We successfully summoned it, though, Yeah, we did summit. Nice people from New York. Yeah, from New York. The whole family of people going up there. We got a couple coming older, couple coming up with there with her pup. It's a you know, there's a balance, right, as you said, coming up here on like a Saturday in July tomorrow, it'day Friday tomorrow be a lot of people. You want to see that at some level, But at another level, would you rather be in solitude? Yeah, Like I said, like coming up here like weeknights and early mornings and stuff when you can kind of have it all to yourself. Yeah, we did see one. We saw one billy up there. He was you know, he gave us a glimpse. He was what would you say, twards thousand yards over a thousand yards over there he was. He was a poke across there like a nice goat that was a big boy. Yeah. And that's one thing we were talking about too that we hadn't touched on that. You know, one of the things that over the years with goats that hadn't been as there are huntable populations and tags started to be more prevalent around the West judging goats is I got a lot of jokes about your nation technique. So that's like I've been writing them down on my journal. Um, but talk about you know, what you guys are doing to get the word out about how to how to sexa mountain goat? And then you know what it really what the tactics are. Yeah, we can definitely go over that. We'll say hide to our new friends here. We had a beagle. Oh, a beagle all the way up here. Looks like a rabbit dog. Yeah, I know a guy that has a few of else. How's going? How are you? How are you? Hi? Pup? I know it's weird we're podcasting up here? Is that weird? Do you prefer going uphill or downhill? Yeah? We should. We should put side hill in there. Yeah, that could be an option. That would one. It's awful, It's awful. How's gone? What are you guys from? Oh? Nice? Cool? Nice we had we've had New York, Colorado. We're getting good up here. Yeah, just down to Bozeman. Yeah, it's called the Hunting Collective. That's the podcast. So you guys are unwitting Yes on the show? Welcome to it? Welcome? Yeah, well thanks for being on. I wish I had like a parting gift or something to give you, like a sticker, but I just forgot a good one. Yeah. You're talking about gender identification mountain goats and why it's important and what we look for there. But yeah, kind of the curse of the mountain goat is that the boys and the girls look very similar. Both have short, black horns, white bodies, and have a lot more similarities than differences. Um, and that can be a detrimental thing come hunting season if nanny's are accidentally targeted and harvested and taken out of the population. Maybe accidentally. So we do focus a lot of our efforts and energy on the educating too, sportsman of those key identifiers, on how to tell billy's from nanny's and and not just that, but explain why it's important. And um, yeah, we gotta what I believe to be the greatest educational tool for the mountain goat hunter on our website. It's a it's an eight minute video we produced with Mr Stephen Ronella rating it. Mr Marks Cat, I remember did that? Cat and Adam Fosse put that together years ago. Now you're affiliated with Adam Fosse. Yeah, Adams a very good friend of mine. Unfortunately on the board of rm G A Sin's day one. Actually, like most Canadians, complete asshole can barely be around them. Real jokester, real jokester if you're listening to Adam, which you're probably not, uh moved back to Bozemann. Candida is not. Can't think we're going to be able to talk him into that one. No, I've tried. I tried one time, didn't didn't work out. Yeah, we made that that video, which, um, you know, that topic had been discussed and kind of produced before, but nothing in the last twenty five years. So it was time to kind of repurpose and re author all of that into a more digestible package. And now a lot of managing agencies have adopted that video and courage and even sometimes demand their tag holders to watch it. So I think that's a really valuable tool that we came out with. One of the one of the bigger winds for mountain goats kind of across the board is just helping people identify billies worst nannies. Yeah, you're looking at horn shape yep is one of them. Yeah, that's a big one, and probably horn mass or thickness, yes, is probably less of a less of a easy one. But then you have the urination posture. Yeah, and that's kind of the nail on the coffin, we say, But Yeah, you're kind of looking at a handful of different things, and starting with the horns, there is some slight differences between the billies and nannies. Where the billies are typically going to have thicker horns and a more gradual curvature um with some noticeable black glands behind the back side of the horn. Nanny's um have a skinnier horn on average that kind of goes up and then at the top has a pretty sharp kink in it, like a noticeable turn in the horn. Um, We're billies don't really have that, uh, that noticeable turning point. What do you compare them to like a candy cane and the Nike swoosh, Like, oh, I've been I used the Nike swoosh. Um, I've heard you say that, but I've heard that before. But I've thrown that around before. It's kind of the billy's got the Nike swoosh going just a clean curve and then uh, nanny's a kind of like this like lower case R or it's like straight up and then just a little bit of a short turn there. Yeah, but a lot of that is always uh up for debate, and there's a lot of variables and some some nanny's are really big and some these are really small, and so we like to have we encourage people to wait to watch the animals urinate, which they do very differently. Well, they often do that when they're getting out of their beds. Yeah, yeah, they do. Yeah, so if you if you view them for long enough, you'll often see them go to the bathroom and the nannies squat like a girl dog, like a female dog out in your yard, and the billies kind of stretch it all out like a big draft course like Clydesdale. Yeah, I'll think of some jokes here. I'm sure I can't take anything serious. But um, so, you know, goats being a fascination of yours, we were talking about this coming down the ridge here they they have and we we've already touched on the Olympic National Park situation and also the um I think the one that's more interesting to me just because of the way it went down, which is a Grand Teton situation. Um, there's an economy here that I want to explore that's kind of a broader context of kind of what the what the goat represents. But let's let's run through those two situations. Yeah, start with Grand Tea town. So in Grand Teton, you had a small herd of native bighorn sheep in the Tatons um that in recent years have not been doing great. And uh, now have some mountain goats out of Idaho came trickling in and have been doing very well in the Tetons and inhabiting some of this native sheep habitat and kind of pushing them out and competing for the best habitat there, which there isn't a ton of. It's a small area and we're talking smaller populations. Were got a hundred mountain goats in the Grand Teton situation. You have a thousand mountain goats in the Olympic situation. Um, but yeah, you have a struggling native ungulate and Grand Teton that was the mountain. The introduction of the mountain goat, even though it introduced itself, was a detriment to this animal, and people were quick to uh defend that native big horn sheep heard and uh get those goats out of there. What they did was they quickly moved towards lethal removal, and um, I think they successfully called like thirty five to forty animals and in a day before well here's the wind, deal with it out there, deal with it. We're not gonna We're not coming down. Our next guests are actually headed up the trail. Um. They looked like they might have a lab. I think it's a gold golden lab, golden retriever. It's a good looking dog. I'm not doing good at my dog identification. I thought the first at least that's a step up to to get the actual species right. Uh yeah, I don't know. I'm I need to get in better shape and just get my checked. That's a black lab. No, that's a Golden retriever. Dumbass, your dumbmass um. Yeah, so those are different situations in my mind. Um, I am in favor of protecting this the native sheep um, even if it's a bit of a uh a lost cause. Um, I fear. I fear that the sheeper and uh kind of a bad spot with or without the mountain goat being there. But I am in favor of protecting native ungulates in Grantee On National Park. I'd like to see those animals, those mountain goats live, captured and relocated. They're far more valuable alive than they are dead. Um. But yeah, that's the interesting thing about Olympic National Park. There is no competing native ungulate, just like New Zealand, there is no competing ungulate within It becomes like it becomes like an ideology at that point, or a philosophy of what is native, what is non native? This purest ideology of like we're gonna go back in time to when things were perfect. My question is like what point what day? Like day, pick a day on a real calendar and show me when we arrived it because there was something that we've never seen before before we got here. Yeah, that's a that's a tough one. And that's where I think it becomes interesting to me. When you're just talking about an idea, right, you're not talking about like tangible wildlife management to a point where you're saying, when you're weighing, which I think the complexity of all wildlife management should allow for this, but weighing one thing against another. But when one thing you're weighing is the eradication of a species within an ecosystem, that's that's a heavy weight. You know, that's something that we that we don't normally do here. We don't really partake in and and to to the point we were making earlier, it doesn't get a whole lot of pub a lot of press that these things. I hadn't heard the Grand Teaton thing until a couple of weeks ago, until the alarms went off. But we should, we should tell the story of like exactly what happened there because, um, the Park Service put a helicopter in yere, right they did. Yeah, they they basically got their plan past which approved them for all sorts of stuff from capture relocation, lethal removal by volunteer, lethal removal by UH federal helicopter gunmen. And what's the plan process there? The plan process like to submit the plan and then getting approval, right, Yeah, so there's an E I S and they have to they have to kind of write out a couple different options of what they they are wanting to do, and then when that gets approved, they can move forward with their approved options. They kind of circumvented the approved options that were probably had the most public support, the live capturing, relocation, the UH calling and harvesting and salvaging hopefully by volunteers. Those that were the options kind of written in that. I think maybe we're just put there for public support. And as soon as they got the public support and they got green light on this whole thing, they skipped all of that and they just put the chopper in there and they just started shooting. And that went on just for a couple of hours for the Secretary of the Interior called the Grand Teton National Park and told him to cut it out. Cheese man. Yeah, that's something. Well, I'm gonna look into that. I've I've been reading about it a little bit. Again, much like the Olympic situation, there's not a whole whole lot out there. Um, it's not like you can read it in the you know, like a major newspaper. Even even aside from that, in in wildlife and ecology papers and websites and folks that cover this. It's not I mean, it's there if you look for it for it though, And that's you know, some of the that's some of the news we try to broadcast, and that's what we try to use our soapbox to kinda tell the story and bring it to light. Um, yeah, we're definitely gonna I'm definitely gonna crack it open. We're gonna look at it on metator dot com and and try to present what's what's there, it's not there. I think it's compelling to to recount even that story of a copter being in the air and then having to call it down. Um, because, like like we said earlier, you don't like to think of these things is nefarious. I don't. That's not the approach that I'm gonna take to it. But it's a it's a it's an emotion or a feeling that I got to resist when I think about aerial gunning of a species that's not it's not a real attractive option. No. Um, so what's the update. There's there's not there's really not much of an update everything. When the brakes got thrown on uh. Shortly after that, COVID kind of shut down the park service and stuff. Every the time, it just came to a grinding halt. Um. We did strike up conversation with Grand Teton and with some other neighboring biologists in Wyoming about the possibility of capturing and relocating those animals, and unfortunately we're often discouraged to do that because, oh, the teaton are really hardcore terrain and capturing him is too too complicated and dangerous, which I respect that sure, but all mountain goat habitat is technical and dangerous. So just to dismiss it right away because you think it would be too hard, Um, I'm not a big fan of that. Yeah, I mean it's again, the threshold for aerial gunning of any total population should should be I talked about that a lot with gun control, Like dude, the threshold for an elective official to enact you know when we talked about this with the Trudeau in Canada and at the point I made the people that are that wanted to have a conversation, which I do respect, is that the threshold. All I'm saying is the threshold for with you know, in the a vacuum but no second Amendment. The threshold to do something like that to restrict someoney's rights or in this case eradicated species should be should be high. We should hold those officials to a very high and stringent standard, and we should go over with fine tooth comb. And that doesn't seem like that's been done here no. Um, you know, it's been an ongoing thing. Like when you look at Olympic National Park, they've been trying to get into their mountain goats for decades, decades and decades, and how long have you been there? Do we say that they were put in there in the twenties, so it's been a it's been a hundred years. Right, how's it going, guys? How are you? Did you make it to the top? He did a little windy? It's a little windy up there, right? Why we came back down there? Have a good one. That's our fourth guest between two clips. We didn't ask them, Hey, guys, do you like to go uphill or downhill? More? Well done? We got two uphills, two downhills. You guys from? Where are you guys from? We we're still trying to decide where are you guys from? Okay? Nice? Well, really it's like a tapest tramp here. We like it. This is a podcast where locals why not? Yeah, we're from Data Valley Bosman. We just got nothing else to do, so, you know, we're figured we'd come sit between two cliffs. We're calling this between two cliffs. It's an interview show. Have a good one? Is this really could become a thing? Man? Yeah? We might have to come back and do this again. Yeah, Um, we'll come back on a Saturday, serious, like that country polane. They'd be like, how did your podcast grow so fast? Like I came up with a bunch of stickers face to face and sack ag we a peak. But anyway, yeah, how long you know, I know kind of the facts around Olympic I don't know the t ton and I don't imagine it matters because it's gonna be decades and decades, well longer than we've been we've been there. Yeah, So the goats were put on the Olympic Peninsula in twenties by some sportsmen. The Park Service came in the thirties and set up shop, made it a national park, and from day on declared the mountain goat as exotic as a zebra. So, um, that is different in the sense of grandtiton, because we're talking about a native big horn population that calls that home, that's being a little bit stepped on by a population of goats that are moving in from an introduced population in Idaho. So a lot of a couple of moving parts there. But have you talked to biologists on the ground in either of these places? Park Service officials, I'm sure you've tried to have a dialogue here Um, is there indoctrination from decades of declaring these these exotic non native species? Um, how do you tell how how those dialogues go. Yeah, Um, it's pretty black and white. Two most wildlife managers, I would say, on the whether their native or not in certain areas, it's like, well, did did we put them there? Or were they already there? Um? But it Yeah, they've fought it for a long long time. They've wanted them gone for a long time and continually had their plans rejected. And then there was a chain of events starting in two thousand and ten with the fatal goring of that guy, and then uh, that kind of snowballed into a little bit momentum. And I mean it took it still took ten years, two thousand twenty, you know, and h they're kind of finally getting what they've wanted for a hundred years. I guess, Well, we we put in a bunch of us a meeting to put in I know, I think basically everybody on our content team put in and I know a lot of people probably calling you, some people called me actually when we was talking about doing it. And we're excited for the opportunity to get to hunt quote unquote a mountain goat in that country. Now I agree a concept of it actually being a hunt. I'm down, dude, let's go. That's a dream for most folks who like mountains, like the back country. But as you explain, it ain't a hunt. No. Um, Yeah, I think I crushed some dreams some of the phone calls I got. But yeah, a lot of people who were excited to go mountain goat hunting on the Olympic Podinsila, what a great opportunity. And that's just really not what's going on out there, that this is a col in which means you shoot every single animal you see from the males, females, kids in year lens, every one of them. And there's no uh responsibility to salvage any of these animals. So you're you're just a hired you're a hit man. Well, and I filled out the filled out the form. It was really an application resume basically, and the form, you know, it makes clear. And then in conversation with some folks at MPs, it made clear that yes, while it's it's okay, it's not it's not against the rules of the operation to take the meat. It is it is aunt reproductive to the activity you're not. So if you shoot one on a ridge over there, five yards away, and you want to take the half a day to go get the meat and pack the meat out, they're gonna tell you, well, look there's ten of them over here, go shoot those. And so it wasn't gonna be as pretty as anybody would have wanted it to. Yeah, and I think as this continues to unfold them, some more of that will kind of come to light. Yeah. Yeah, and we wanted none of us actually got picked. Um, no one. Do you know anyone they got picked? Uh? Not personally. I was contacted by a team or two. I'm super excited they got drawn and it's like not a draw. I just couldn't share their enthusiasm. But um, yeah, yeah, I think it's it's it's hard to imagine for me as somebody who's just curious, also as from a journalistic perspective, to be able to describe to somebody what it feels like, what it looks like, the on the ground elements of something like this isn't it was important to me. So, um, I'm bummed for that reason that we we didn't get drawn. We didn't get included. But it wasn't. It wasn't the excitement of pursuing. I would love to see that country, to see those animals in that country. That's kind of where it where it stopped. Yeah, for the last hundred years. You can just go walk in there and see that and now this woe. This will be the end of it. Look at this beautiful boy. Wow, look at that black lab. This is a golden retriever. Hey, very like textbook through a bread golden. That's not a black ladd. No, this is not a black lab. All right, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Anybody morning, Hi are you hey? We had a question for you. We're doing a podcast. You like uphill or downhill better? That's right, that's right, a lot of uphill, you agree? Uphill? Where are you guys from? We're a very good there is the first people, the first locals we've ran out to all day, have a good one. I feel like these two snowboarders, snowboarders of July. I love it. I love it. Yeah, they're going to shred a little snowy shoot around the corner over there. It's a great one and you'll see it as we drive out of here, but it's a big death cool are people hike all the way up and over sack and around nine Nuki to go hopping at the top and just down just not just this morning? Are you guys say we've started a great conversation Montin. It's interesting to see how people like some people want to like stop and wonder. Other people are just bombing. It's like it's a nice what's that? Yeah? Yeah, we're just a couple of yo, a couple of local weirdos podcasting between two clips. I really think we should. You need to plug the show, bring a foot on a couple of bean bag chairs. It's up, guys. Have you got a question for you? Uh? Upillow downhill? Well you like more? Yeah you d answer is definitely gonna be downhill there. You guys are messing up our our pole here with you. Everyone else seems to like going up pool. Where are you going to? Yeah? But a lot of people saying uphill, yeah, we enjoy. We guess that have fun in there? Have fun? He say, should have it all to yourself. You're the first boards going up. Yeah, he's a podcast. We're just weird on it right now. Yeah, you're on it. It's called it's called the Hunting Collective. Yeah. Yeah, I hope you get to punch. You get it. You're gonna get it. I hope you find what you're looking for out there. Oh good one. Uh so yeah, I mean, let's let's run through Olympic a little bit more. Um, you know the history of it. The goats were there before we said this sport. The goats are there before the Park services. Goats were there before we declared it off off limits for uh, you know, consumptive use, things of that nature. So where it's gonna happen, ye know, we know they're going to eradicate him. When did they postponed it because of COVID? They uninvited me because of COVID this summer, but uh they at the end of July. Just so starting here very soon, um, will be the fourth and final round of capture and relocation of goats getting caught in the Olympic National Park being handed over to the state of Washington and then trucked into the North Cascades and released into a couple of different sites there. Um, we should say that we should cover that and say this is the largest as you'll explain easy. You can explain there, it's easy for me to. Maybe you have a grim view of everything that's going on, but there is a lot of conservation winds two uh kind of to highlight as well, and the biggest of those being that this relocation project, this is the largest uh and most involved mountain goat relocation project in human history. So to date, over three mountain goats have been captured and relocated and that's never been done before, not on that scale. And so that's that's something where you know, like researchers and wildlife managers learned a lot from that. UM. There are benefits and kind of on all aspects of that capture from different uh, different researchers getting to partake in things and get their hands on a lot of animals. UM. And then just as far as reseeding the North Cascades and revitalizing a native heard in Washington. So that's a big win. UM, it's not all bad. It's just this final the final chapter, the cleansing you know peninsula that it's it's hard to swallow. But everything up to this point RMG has been involved in heavily and in the caption, relocation and the logistics of that and uh, the funding of that, and when it's come to the lethal removal removal of these animals, we are not not part of it at all. Yeah. Um, I don't want to be. I don't want to be. Yeah, I don't. I don't. I just I'm not I'm not the guy to do that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean when we thought about it, we definitely struggle with it. We knew. I knew even you know, for knowing what you're about, what you guys do that, I was like, it's not even worse approaching this conversation. But there's I hope someone. I hope we can find someone out there. If you got picked, if your team got picked to go and do this. I'm not interested in the politics of it or even really the management of it, but I am interested in the on the ground feeling of it, experience, the experience of it. You know what it's like to go and be part of that, and then you know, if you're a hunter or you love wildlife, what you come away with that as you know what that whether you still support it and you still understand it. And the folks that are there putting this operation on can articulate their points to you in a way to make you kind of, you know, at least sympathize with what they're trying to do more than I do currently. I'm sure you know, saying with you sure, yeah, um. I think it would be an interesting kind of perspective to see whence all this happens. What's interesting was when when all this was being drafted and proposed and adopted, we uh, you know, and every when the volunteer call in was discussed, it was very much discussed with the hopes of oh that that's great, that you know, it sounds like an opportunity for teams to go out and recover these animals and salvage hide and horns and meats and um. Forally that has not been prioritized that we are they are utilizing volunteers before lethal helicopter gun in. But it almost just seems to be just to like check that box and a piece a piece again. I can tell you from from going through that process, it was clear through the ap right and so you know how god hunt is. I don't I've never done it, but I've been in country word where it happens in this country. You shoot one and it slides down it goes down to shoot, and it slides down to the bottom of a drainage or ravine or some gnarly the whole that you want to go in, and it takes the rest of the day to get over there and get it field dressed. So it's clear, it's clear, even without them telling you this, that that kind of activity would be frowned upon because it's time and energy spent. Yeah, against not against the goal, right, because it's the time it takes to do it. Yeah, just different players at the table will here. Yeah, but at the end of the day, mountain goods are more valuable to me alive than they are dead. Yeah. Yeah, you should have to say. You shouldn't have to say that, dude. You should not have to say, in this fucking country, I'm gonna cuss down and do I'm from because the Irish will come out of me. You shouldn't have to say that. And I get to the point where they're pushing out other species. It's it's a choice you make between one dead thing possibly in another a dead thing. But even beyond that, you should you know, that's a position that I don't want anyone to be in that loves a species, whether it's a game species or you're just a predator species or anything. You know, because we've been through that in this country and that so that's a tough thing. Um, it's a tough thing to think about. And so hopefully you know everybody's listening to this. You can, you can. I'm not saying that you have to support what we're talking about or fully support the call, but look into it. Yeah, it's just I respect all the players at the table. There's a lot of a lot of interest groups here, and I think, like I said, there's a lot of conservation success to focus on through all of this, and there are a lot of triumphs that are coming out of this. UM. There are just some parts of it that are that are tough for me as a mountain goat advocate to uh kind of stomach. Well do you see this? Are there other hotspots where this potential in the future. Well, yeah, I mean anywhere that anywhere that sheep and goats co exists, you have the potential for conflict like this. Um. They co exist symbiotically often and then sometimes they don't. Sometimes mountain goats have reputation for kind of being bullies and pushing cheap out of spots. Um, every situation is different when it comes to that. But yeah, when you like talk about movie animals around and whether you get permission to do it or not. Like in Utah right now they're trying to introduce some goats into a wilderness area in the FEDS or trying to stop them from doing that, and um, it's just yeah, the never ending dilemma of native or non native. Yeah, and and the proximity to native and non native. In the case of the Mountain how many states are they native? Uh, the native and Montana the native. Yeah, there's and this is that's a tough one too because people there's people that argue their native in Colorado and then people to argue that they're not native in Colorado. And then same with Utah. People say they're they're native here, They're all they're not native here. And you imagine it's just a tool for an agenda, right in that case, when it's when when you can say I want them to be here so they're native. I don't want them to be here so they're non native. It's a tough situation to be in. Well, you know, they had back as far as the last ice age, there was mountain goat remains found in Mexico. So as the ice retreated north, the out and goat kind of went with it north. Uh, with the mountain goat like Sonora, There's no way to know. And if it was icy enough, I guess, I guess that could work. Yeah, yeah, that's why. Again, I'm glad that you're doing what you're doing. I'm glad that we can focus on this a little bit. I don't I hate to shy away from sticky situations. I like to dive into them and just think about them. And as as as you kind of pull the layers back of of the mountain goat itself, the idea of it being in the Rocky Mountain Ranges, the idea of it being its native habitat, the idea of it approaching into habitats non native, all of that kind of paints a broader picture. And we talked about this last week. We're in that in yellow Stone. It just paints a broader picture of the complexity of wildlife management. Oh my gosh, what a what a menagerie con using players at the table. All right, we're gonna wait here. We got a couple of our last guests on between two cliffs or come it up. Um that nolex wearing a rich red vest it is which I'm not familiar with that breed, but there's a rover rover red rover. So we got our last. It looks like a family, full family coming up, mom, whole gang. I'm seeing people get out. I love it man incitually going into goat country. Well in this country too, this is tough country. So the people that are here, you don't you don't see any people here that are having a bad time, even if they're sweating it out. What I like about this is people can come up here and have an encounter with a mountain goat, and that's a really unique thing for population. So I like to think that everybody that comes up and does this hike has an opportunity to have kind of a an intimate, uh encounter with a mountain goat, and then hopefully from that comes it's kind of interest in the passion. It's kind of an interesting comparison to to a national park because this is not unlike what you would see on a trail the trailhead in either one of the two places we've talked about you know, we gotter bells coming coming back here, some bear bells or air bells. Yeah, so this is you know, people on the trailhead enjoying this stuff. Nobody's out here for something reasons. They're out here to see it. Nobody's from here, just a couple of people from here. And so that feels like Yellowstone. It feels like a national park. The high traffic, beautiful, high trafficked, airy with wildlife about, you know, and so it's got that feeling um in many ways. And so it's nice to but everybody is here for that experience and they appreciate it the way we appreciate it. I'm sure special place. It is special views. We just need to we got rid of the wind. We just needed to see a goat which, yeah, we got the one. That's a that's a pretty slim morning of the goat side. And it's true. At least we got to see. That's true. That's true. They might be down, they might just be down in the parking lot. They're gonna be down. They are sometimes looking assault off the Yeah, man, I've seen it right down there at the lake scene cheap doing that too. I've seen him looking the soft road. Really. Oh yeah, that's another common issue with habituation of mountain goats. They'll look up urine human urine stains, so as people hike along the trail and stop and take a pee, goats will go home to get the salt out of the urine stain in the soil. So that's is actually a a topic of conflict between humans and mountain goats. These mountain goats and urine stories, they seem to have a lot of around the mountain. Well, before we let you go and we get our last guests on between two cliffs, um, I feel like they're gonna say downhill. Um, I think they're gonna be downhillers. But then we gotta make our our choice. Tell a story of your first mount and go hunt. Oh gosh, because of what you tell me eight years ago, nine years ago. Yeah, my first mountain was my own mountain goat hunt. I drew a tag in two thousand eleven and I hunted here in Montana and I ended up hunting super late season and harvesting a mountain goat on Thanksgiving morning, forty eight hours left in the three month season. That there's no way that wasn't there was a winter Wonderland. Um. But that's really what kind of like planted the seed of like my interests in mountain goats and then ultimately like passion for conserving them. Um. But that was really cool experience for me and evolution of like me hanging out in the mountains, because that was before I had any nice gear and uh maybe before I knew what I was doing mountain goat. But I harvested a great nine and a half inch billy with a full winter coat. He lives in the front room at Stone Glacier Showroom. You've probably seen him many times. I've dranking. I think I drank a beer right beside it. Many people have. Um. But from then I was telling you coming down, and I'm guilty of inviting myself on every mountain goat hunt I can invite myself on. So yeah, I think I've been on seventeen, really seventeen of them. Now, well, you're invited. If I ever draw, you're invited. I appreciate that. I would definitely be there. I intend to hang. People just want me to come so I can tell them which one. I don't think it really has anything to do with people enjoying my company. You've carved out an important niche and conservation, yes or no, and then we can blame it on the rocket. Yeah, I'll tell you what. I still every mountain goat hunt, I go on. I mean, I'm pretty confident most of the time when we make that decision to harvest an animal. Very confident and uh, but I still hold my breath until you walk up and made the legs. We were talking about bear hunting coming down. We just got out of bear season and the same thing there, especially in this country, is open country. And you know, catch a bear in a timbered meadow, you know, like just in the meadow right out of the timber, looks like a good one. You run up there and get a shot. Going to timber, buddy, do that this year. Yeah. It's just glad they taste all right, because that's gonna be an easy pack out. But yeah, I mean, that's that's something that you know, if you're out there, you can go to your to the website, right, that's right, go to lions dot org. Yeah, just take a look at it. Take a watch. It's got the the dulcet tones of one Stephen Ronnella. Yeah, there's a lot of cool content on there between the video we made was Steve and then our conservation blog is just kind of all the news and happenings of conservation across the continent. Yeah, get interested, man, because it's there's a lot that you've done. Here comes our last guests. Hi, can we ask you a question? Do you like? Go on uphillar down here? More on the mountain, don't fall off? Okay? Cool? Power through it? We like it. Hey, guys, good good? How are you guys? Where are you guys from? Perfect second group of locals. Everyone else has been from from other states. We have got New York, Colorado, from all around Indiana, or from from Randy looking just recording a podcast. I'm talking about goats, talking about guys. Yeah, perfect to do. I hope you guys see something. All right, we got it. Pill for the wind, pill for the wind. I'm gonna take up pill um. Yeah, even going up hill, um, I'm gonna stay downhill. Oh shit, because I can go. You're an innovator, I can go faster. Okay, yep, I'm with you. I don't get wind you probably like speed. Don't get winded, and it would the bad part is right like your quads get what I was gonna say many guys about the blisters. You gotta think about the blisters. You gotta think about your the burning of the legs, you know, I know, like I like Cam Haynes, I always think, if he's you know, just keep going. It's not what is it, It's not it's hard. If it's harder, it's better. I can't I can't remember sometime tune of that um every time I talk, can sometimes listens. Every time I talk, he always says, I'm talking. I'm not talking about him. I'm not. I love you man. Um. I just can't remember the slogans. That's all. That's all. But yeah, but going downhill, especially getting some loose screen, you feel good. You know, there's there's the when I was at YETI, we worked on a film called Arctica Red with with the with the fosses and the seacats of the world, and they're so good, so much good footage from the Kenzie Mountains up up north of those guys just beating up screen with their tracking polls. I'm like, I always thought, just running through it looks so cool. Man. That's that's one of the coolest. That's one of the coolest drone shots I've ever seen. It's pretty cool. So yeah, I'm gonna stick with uphill only because it only because it takes it takes a little bit of a little bit of doing. There's a little bit of effort. But I can see downhill. It's it's more fun. I'm gonna stick with downhill because that's the direction we are going right now. Yeah, we're gonna head downhill. Well, um man, I do I appreciate all you're doing, like it's it's it's absolutely unique thing that you've endeavored to do. And I know you didn't you know, set out the change the world. Just want to check out some goats, but you know, it's a it's they're an interesting animal that sit at kind of a nexus like many other animals like the mountain lion that we talked about last week. They it sits now at this this interesting point in time and also just and what it represents. And so you know, the more we know about them, the more we talk about them, the better my my opinion. Yeah, Yeah, we hope to get you out on a field project or come do some stuff like this here in the next year. Yeah, I've never been in the crazy I know you guys do some stuff crazy we have, Yeah, crazy. Just got a new biologist over there. We're looking at the craziest right now. They just got a new regional biologist over there, so I hopefully look forward to working with him in the years ahead. Get some boots in there, and I'm I'm gay man anytime. Also Stone Glacier. Yeah, man, come come see the goat collection. Feel like if you're in the mountains, you can't find any mountain goa, it's just stopped by the stone glaciers. Are you still guys within the COVID mindset? Are you still doing the growler? If people bring in you know, uh, that's a hunting season thing that they're like a fall hunting season thing primarily, or or don't bring anything for bucks and beers campaign, don't bring anything in there. Now, well, our show room is open. We're just doing our social distancing and offering masks at the door. But um, hopefully come fall we do have the doors open again. So that's one of the best parts of working there in the fall, seeing just the crazy amount of animal people bring by. And uh not missed that, man, I missed change for a photo for a growler of beer had that idea. It was a collective kind of idea between Lyle and Jeff and I thought we were just kind of spitballing one day. I think I said, cool, if we had a Polaroid camera here and we you know, somebody bring by their antlers or snap a photo of them and put on the wall. And then Jeff was very quick said it's a good idea. You know what to make it better, you got a beer, and then uh, Lyle ran with it, and we all just kind of made it happen. We been doing it for a couple of years and now so if you come to Stone Glacier you'll see a huge collection of photos on the wall of people who have brought their creators by. It's a you know, when I was a kid, there was checking stations. Yeah. Yeah, we joke that there was still checking there's check stations on the highway and stuff. During we joked that the FTBP would be smart to put one in our parking lot. That where's coming these dudes posted up with Bino was like checking out what's going on? Yeah, I mean that's when I was a kid. I'd love to go get like a cold cut sub and a coke and hang out and just look at look at bucks that were in Big Bucks where I came from. But that's that's something that you guys have kind of recreated in a way. So yeah, for sure there's a good culture in there. I hope everybody is able to make it through at some point. All right, Man Stone Glacier, Rocky Mountain, go to lines Um. I really appreciate you spending some time, and we'll come back for between two cliffs here later this year. We'll be back soon. We'll be back. Thanks for us, Jonas, thanks for having me, Thanks thanks for listening. Peace. That's it. That's all you've done, your cocktail film, Lode. I'm going slow, take a little drink, see I always because my my wife takes uh several years to finish one drink. It's a problem. Yeah, And I used to think that she was just a slow drinker. But the more time I spend around other people, I just to finish than everybody, So I just think I'm a fast. One of the reason why we like you here, don't collective because you drink, and you drink a lot. Um. Well, thank you to Pete, thank you to everyone out there. For listening, and thanks to our emailers for telling us what birds we heard and for giving us some not so sharp moments. Again, not to sharp moments will continue throughout the fall. So do you want to be considered for not so sharp moments? T HD at the mediator dot com. Tell us all the dumb things you did outside not too long, not too short, just right, just right, and you'll get chosen and you'll win a field sharpener. Same thing our element cocktail that we created that we're both riding pretty high on right now. I'm feeling I'm feeling good. You're feeling good. I was incredibly nervous walking into this room this morning. I thought this was going to be a terrible drink. You don't trust me. We're in We're in the next. Nope, don't trust you. It was. It was good. It's delicious. And also, you don't have to make a cocktail with this. In fact, uh, just don't make a cocktail. Just drink it. Just drink it. Put it in some water and drink it. That's fine and hydrated. You should do that. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that. I'm saying it's okay to be creative. It's okay to drink at t se am on a Monday, and that's that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. So that's how we want to introduce element to the show. You can see hear him, hear about him every week here from them quite often, so welcome, please support them win and if you can, it's important to the show. Keep us chugging along here at the Hunting Collective. Anything else, Phil, anythink us you're feeling anything other statements? You're you're feeling hydrated, you're feeling a little bit tipsy. Um, I cleaned up the mess I might here. Yeah. I just want to say thank you, um, because so sometimes people come in here, whether it's with a coffee or with a bunch of fake meat, and they make a huge mass would do that, and sometimes they don't clean it up. Uh, So I want to thank you for just being right on top of that. No problem, No problem. Well we'll see you guys next week on The Hunting Collective. We're moving through August. We're getting towards ELK season, more talk, more fun, hunting adventures right here on the show. Say bye, Phil, goodbye. You know, because I can't go a week without doing rung Oh without absolute run breaking, out right absolutely drinking

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