00:00:00 Speaker 1: Oh hey, everybody, I should stop briefly Phil and explain something, or you can you give me a minute to explain something important, please. Um you're gonna be hearing advertisements on the show. Here're coming up, and I feel like I should explain them. We were working with the new company, and the way this works for advertising is they drop in, we record as, and they drop them in parts of the show. And I just want you to know that we're doing our best to make all that work and make it a seamless process. But we gotta make money, right Phil, Yeah, we gotta keep the keep the lights on in your nursery, Ben, Somebody's got to pay Phil's exorbitant salary. I mean, he makes tens of thousands of dollars a show worth every penny where there. And you know, every time I say right, Phil, he says right in a way that not no one else could. So, so just say, you know, new things happening, very good things for our show. I might finally get the cash app to to advertise. I might finally get Express VPN to advertise all these great advertisers that if they're on your show, you've made it. I feel I don't know if you agree with that, Phil, But this is that's where my that's my goal. Um. The other goal is to get White Claws a title sponsor the show. And if we've done those things, I may just end it right there. I'm not sure, but I'm excited about our new advertising partners coming up. So enjoy that. That was a little public service announced. But to the to today's episode, it's a fantastic one. You're gonna love it your you agree, Phil, Yes, I mean, honestly, I don't like to play favorites, but this is a good one, one of my favorites. We answer a few emails. Phil has never took a ship in the woods. We meet Dolly Broadway, the crazy TikTok Lady, and UM learn about Joshua's perspective of his COVID nineteen experience th HC listener. But all that is only a foot note to Robert C. Jones. The return of Robert C. Jones, our friend, the vegan, the philosophy professor out of California. He's currently in Hollywood. He's got a lot of cool stories for us. We talk about bargaining and consumption, what death really means, what's suffering really means and start to define how we think about veganism versus hunting and consuming of meat. I think it's a very important conversation. Um. Yeah, when the preamble we talk about ship in white Claw. So that's a THHC for you. Enjoy. Hey, everybody, welcome to episode hundred and twenty two. Is that right, Phil? One? That is correct of a hunting collective? I of course, I've been o Brian. I'm joined by Philip T. Engineers say hello, Philip, Hello, and we're along into April. Um, we're gonna take a break from turkeys this week for a very important public service announcement. We have the return of Dr Robert C. Jones. Are you excited, Phil, Yeah, I've I've heard a lot of the interview, and I should say that the listeners should be excited as well. I said in at the very tail end of the interview, And I do feel like this is true, Um, that Robert just being I mean, he's incredibly intelligent also just incredibly nice person, and so I think he brings out the best of me, and maybe maybe vice versa. I don't know, but he definitely brings out the best of me in terms of like how I think about and articulate some of the things that we've covered over to the couple hundred and twenty two episodes of this show. So you're really gonna like it. We're not gonna we're not gonna do too many things. Um, we're just gonna kind of let that interview be what it is for this episode. But we got some listener emails, some things to get to before we get to Robert. Now, Phil, in true t C fashion, we're gonna do some silly shit. We're gonna talk about crapping in the woods, We're gonna talk about white claw, and then we're gonna get into a very serious intellectual discussion. Are you ready? It sounds like standard th HC standard standard, just complete ridiculousness that makes no sense, and white claw and when and then serious discussion, serious discussion. That is how I built my life. Um. The first thing I got an email from the guy's name is Robert sent I believe I have to pull up my email to make sure I got all your names right, because I clearly do. Now I'm just going to be stalling for a moment to like get this up, Um, Robert, since S E N T S said, and a lot of you sent me this. There's a something called TikTok. Are you familiar with TikTok film? Yes? Yes, I am. Our our very own Maggie Smith did one this past week. I don't know if if you've seen it. It's ti You're King themed. I've seen it. It is fantastic. I don't know where do I send people to watch that? The Lone Loom Yeah, her Instagram, I don't it might I think her stories might have disappeared by now. I think it's gone. It's lost to the sands of time. Um. But yes, TikTok short they're kind of like short short Instagram short videos that are usually involved dancing or lip syncing. That's usually the theme, but there are other things as well. Um, are you on TikTok? Phil? I am not. No, I'm not that hip. You're a gamer. I thought all gamers like, we're into the you know what's cool on the internet. Appreciate it, man, But no, I'm not. I haven't caught up that far. I was trying to take out. I was trying to imbobe some good qualities of gamers. Um. But a lot of people, I would say, like a dozen people send me the same link to this white claw video, uh from in it is very explicit, but it's an old lady. So I mean, I feel like old lady cursing is not as impactful as if say you or I, or to say foul foul thing. Um. This lady's name is Dolly Broadway and Phil. She's got a one point two million followers on TikTok. I don't know what to say about that. Well, I mean, she's she's a personality, that's for sure. I'm when I joined TikTok, I will be one of her followers for sure. Uh. Robert said, my wife sent this video to me a few weeks back, and I thought of you guys instantly. I'm I'm catching up on the back logal podcast and I had to send you this link. Enjoy all right, So here we go. This looks like an older lady. How would you describe or Phil, I'll let you go ahead and do that in case I offend anybody. Uh short, short, bright red hair, um glasses. It's the funniest thing about this video to me is that she's just like behind like a picnic table of a really cheap like tablecloth over it. In a beige wall behind her. It's she could have spent gone more on production design, but for sure, it's just called white clontine and says, try my new drink, a white claw team. Hi, I'm dolly to Jetty. I'm going to teach you back to make a white cord and team. You put two white cors, mangu white cloths, mangaro port like shape, splash arrange juice. She has a giant jug of orange juice, sticking it up and pouring it all over the table. She puts like nothing in there, and it's mother, you use your haner top shape. You don't have that toilet paper and put it to good juice, put ice in it, and then you plant it. It's the ice in it, that's it. She doesn't put ice in it. It looks like water at the end. It's not even Yeah. Well, one of my favorite things besides white claws mango, which is just which is just yeah. When you're referring to a plural plural attorney general, it's attorneys general. That's what it reminded me of. Also, she says, a splash of orange juice. She puts like no orange juice, and she's like oh, I put in too much. She's like, oh my gosh. Yeah. At the end she says, put some ice in it. There's clearly no ice in there, and uh, it looks like just water and white maybe and it's a mirror lax because all she says, all you have the toilet paper, you might as well use it. Uh. God bless you Dolly Broadway, God bless you from us here tc. So if you want to find Dolly Broadway, you gotta know what. You first have to know what TikTok is, and then you have to find her on there. And she has Here's the one where she's dressed up like snow white holding I'm not even gonna she's holding a white claw and she's on the other hand, she's holding a buzz Lightyear doll. Uh. There's another one where she's dressed like a princess. And there's one which she has two giant Easter eggs. So I don't even know. I'll probably spend a good hour watching all these phil after this, she's quite popular, quite popular, so shout out to let me have her on the podcast and give her own segment, Dolly Dolly Broadway. Oh, she doesn't need our publicity. She's she's way more namous than you, like, I'm probably gonna have to pay for that. Yeah, I would think, all right, well, we've got a lot to get to. I just you know, I generally would apologize to um everyone who uh is here for the intellectual conversation. Uh, because now we're going to move on to pooping. Are you ready for that? Phil? Oh? Yeah, this is a this is a horrifying story. Go ahead and give go ahead and read that out. Read that for us, buddy, Sure, Okay, so this comes from k Camp. Let's see Keith hello, bit and fill the engineer. So here, I am sitting alone with my back against a pine turkey hunting in Colorado shooting. It is now gleaming, and I am hoping that the turkey I hear gobbling wants to come my way. Out of the corner of my eye, a figure appears to the right. It is a camo dressed person and two dogs. He walks in front of me at a hurried pace and stops at twenty yards away. I waved my hand to catch his attention and let off a deep hey. He does not hear or see me. Instead, he whips his pants down and proceeds to take a nice steamer right in front of me. What would you do? Uh? When when do I let him know my presence? Of course I didn't watch. After I figured out what was going on, I went the I'll stay hidden route and he will never know I was here. However, when he got up to walk away, his dog came over to the fully camouflaged me and began growling. I was caught. We both had a good laugh and he apologized coffee had finally kicked in for his bowels. I have not found another hunter that has had this happened to him or her. And I did not bag a turkey that day, but did find a little mule. Dear shed congratulations uh from Keith. Congratulates it's Keith. Now Keith, I had this happened to me, And we talked about it in the quarantine cast with Miles and all day uh he and and he was a co worker of mine, and so this this happened. We told the story where we were elk cunning together and I split off with Joe, Fernando, Jamie and uh Sam Longer and Miles Nulty went another direction and we were going to kind of wrap around these two ridges and then meet up at some point if we hadn't seen any elk. Well, we were coming back down this ridge to where towards where they were, and we came upon this man in first light taking a ship and we were twenty yards maybe behind him. He didn't see us, and I thought for sure at some point he would turn around, but he never did, so we just had to stand there, uncomfortably, uh, about twenty yards while he finished up. And it took a long time. Um, as you would hear if you go back to that episode, because we had eaten some hobanierro wild turkey the night before, and so this has happened to me, and it is very uncomfortable and you have to look away, but then you have to keep checking back to see what's going on. You can't just look away forever. You got to check back to see if he's done, and then check back again. So that's a delicate dance. Um. But you're not alone, Keith, You're not alone. And I don't think Phil you don't have any similar stories. I'm trying to think no, I mean, no pooping into I'm trying to think no, uh no, I I'm trying to think if I've ever even done that. Nope, what nope? I mean I've never been. I've been camping, like I agree and like a lot, but it's never been. I mean maybe I just my body naturally shuts down my bows because I don't want to poop in the woods for a few days. Whoa, whoa, I like where this is going. Oh I don't. We're gonna peel the onions back. That is the onion layers. That is Phil. Now, Phil, you don't are you have a nervous battels in the woods. I'm not. It's not nervous. I think it's just a si not just thing. I don't know. I'm trying to think. I've never pooped in the woods. I never have. Alight this weekend. Your assignment is to just go poop in the woods? Man? Just okay, you've never experienced it. It's so free, I would find. You gotta find like a log to sit on or a tree to lean up against. Um, make sure it's comfortable, make sure you don't you have your whatever you're gonna wipe with in your hand that way, and there's no kind of like movement afterwards. It's a very efficient. That's that's a good tip. There's actually our buddy Mark Kenyon wrote how to Crap in the Woods, an article that's on the media dot com right now. So we'll leave that at that, but Phil will look forward to next episodes. Your report on your first time Okay, uh, you know I'm looking forward to it too. You know, I got a lot of crap for saying two point five um for my Turkey excitement the other week, but crapping in the woods, I think I'm at a solid eight. Oh man, So wait, hold on. It was a two point five level disappointment, but I'm in an eight for excitement for pooping in the woods. Yet makes sense even though it doesn't make sense. Um, alright, we're gonna we got a couple of sheltered perspectives here. Um, even though that's not the official title of the segment. Um. A lot of you sent these in, so thank you so much for sending those in. Next week we're gonna have I know we promised Eric Hall, but Phil and I want to prepare the proper tribute to our friend Eric Hall. We chatted with him last week and from his home and got to know him a little bit better. But we want to prepare a proper tribute for our friend Eric, so we're gonna get him next week. But this week we have Joshua Butler. Is that how you'd say that? Phil b E U T L E R. Butler? You know, I think it might just be Butler. What the hell is the E in there, Joshua? You know it's that Europeans christ Man or Boiler Maybe Boiler. I can't Why is there any Smiths out there listening? Then have emails, Lord Heaven, Joshua says. Being an essential worker, a Navy veteran with friends on the quarantine aircraft carrier, and someone who routinely deals with handling hazardous materials, I have unique perspective on the current pandemic and proper use of PPE. I'm a radiation safety technician. Our power plant located on the edge of the New England COVID nineteen quote unquote bubble. We have been deemed essential in order to keep power flowing to the region. Some of my job responsibilities is to ensure the radiological safety of public workers and environment. Working presents many challenges. We have had to fundamentally change the way we perform our jobs. Evolutions that were simple a month ago have become incredibly difficult. We've had to incorporate social distancing and physical barriers such as plexiglass into as many applications as possible to limit the spread of the disease. Even with all the protective measures, there are still a risk of transmission. We are strictly enforcing a quarantine of all personnel who becomes sick or we have been potentially exposed. This leaves the rest of UH, the rest of our staff working extra to ensure minimum staffing too safe, to make sure the safe operation is met. And here's where you know you learn a little bit about Joshua and and where it would get scary for me um As he says, as the father of three young daughters, the threat of bringing home the virus is always at the back of my mind. I spent ten years in the military. My only fear then was the potential of myself not returning from deployment. This is a new perspective for me because I have not had to fear for my loved one's safety. My family is healthy and not in the risk group. But but the thought is always there. UH as someone who regularly deals with has some materials is painful to watch people and properly using PPE. A message I would really like to get out there would be to research their protective equipment to make sure you're not causing more harm than good with it. And then he goes on say, hope this email finds us well, and thank you for the great content to take all our minds off the current date of the world. Josh So, josh um, thanks for that. I don't feel Have you been wearing PPE when you go outside? Uh? Well, I had to do a couple of store runs, try to get stuff delivered when we can, but um, you know, with produce and groceries, it's a little tough. But when I do. Uh, here's the thing. When I read this, it kind of jumped out of me because when he says improperly using PPE, what I've been doing is I after I get out of the car, like between my car and whatever story I'm gonna get into, I put on gloves and I pull like a bandana mask type thing over my mouth. Um, It's not like an in n mask or anything like that, just something just some sort of barrier, mostly for other people's protection rather than mine. Just so I'm getting less moisture into the into the air when I'm breathing. But that's that's pretty much it. And then I you know, I heavily sanitizing wash after all my trips and and stuff like that. But I've never actually like looked up, am I doing this right? Like? Am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing with these gloves? Or how how efficient does this mask actually or anything like that right me either? And I think you know, from a Josh's example, obviously he knows things that that they're regular folks don't know. I mean, I've watched some videos and I kind of understand these things, but I'm also the type of person who's very skeptical that it matters at all. But I want to be responsible to the people around me, so I certainly would wear a mask. And I got um if you go back to January, when we're recording podcasts about the birth of my son, I got a little preview of this in January. So basically I've been quarantined for the entire year. When my wife got influenced b um right as she was full term with our son, and so we I had to wear a mask for a week straight in the hospital. Um, so I could be in the room with her, and then we had to sit and kind of be quarantined until she was better and we could have the baby. So UM, I had boxes of masks and got some training from the doctors during that time as toll it to do. And and they're very much explaining what what what. We've all heard that it's not necessarily going to protect you from getting sick, but it's certainly if you're coughing or sick yourself, it can protect the others around you. So that's the way I approach it. But certainly, Josh right and let us know, give us a step by step but what you would do, that's not not a bad thing for all of us. But thanks Josh for doing what you do out there. Stay safe and healthy, take care of your family. Because I said, I know Phil, you probably feel the same. If you get out there in this world and um, you know you might get sick. That's fine, that's something you can deal with. But not knowing whether you're going to bring that home to the family, which is all that matters is um is a fear that I don't know that I could handle. Oh, I mean I I just even if it isn't doing a whole lot, I feel like it's not doing any harm. And how hard is it for me to put on some gloves and cover my mouth before I go out to a store. It's it couldn't be easier. And if there's even a chance that one maybe I'm there's one less person that gets you know, it's just like you know, and we're just putting barriers up, and if one less person gets sick, then then it was worth it. So I I it's not a big deal. So I'm just going to continue doing it. Yep. And if if the best quote I've heard about all this, and again I'm not, don't you're not coming to th HC for your for the pandemic response expertise? I hope, I hope you're going elsewhere for that. But all the best quote I've heard thus far is that if if all of it, if we do this right, it's gonna look like an overreaction. If we do all this right, at the end of all of this COVID nineteen, we're gonna look like we overreacted. Um. And I think that's that's telling to to to what Phil says and what everybody feels, you know, feel silly wearing a mask. But if you can help one person, UM, hopefully that person lives in your home with you, or yelped someone else out in your community that saw you ought to do it. So we will continue reading your emails. We got I got a bunch of other emails that I want to get to later in the weeks to come. We got a bunch of great guests coming up. But for now, UM, one of my favorite people and one of my favorite UM conversations is that of Robert C. Jones. If you don't remember Robert, you would go back and listen to our last episode. It was over the summer last year. And actually I remember that being one of the first episodes where we got to know Phil a little bit better. And so here we are, UM, now Phil the Engineers fully bloomed as a part of our team and just a part of our hunting community. He's there, he's he's getting ready to take his first ship in the woods. And now we're going to get to our friend Robert Jones and in a great conversation about you know, what is our what are the bargains of consumption that we make? And what really is death and suffering in the context of of human versus animal interaction. So here he is my friend, Dr Robert C. Jones, Mr Robert C. Jones. How are you, sir Ben. Good to hear from you again and good to be back. Yes, it's great to have you back there. This is much anticipated, I must say from a lot of the emails I've gotten since we announced it last week that you were coming back, a lot of people are excited for for our conversation. Well, I'm excited to and I wanted to say I was looking through my emails in preparation for this. I received six, exactly sixteen emails from your listeners. I wrote all their names down. I don't know if you want to give shoutouts, but what I can say is I was every single email I got was supportive. I didn't I didn't get any hate mail, So I mean not that your listeners would send me hate mail, but you know, having a vegan on a hunting podcast, I was really pleasantly surprised at how much support and how much encouragement I got from the listeners. So thanks to the emails, Well, yeah, I would thank thank everybody for doing that and reaching out certainly, you know, for me, Um, it's it's nice to just reflect on on those moments where you kind of take a little bit of a risk. I don't know if it's I mean talk to use an not a risk. You're a very reasonable person and and there's nothing, nothing you know, that gets me, that scares me or thinks there's any traps involved. But it's nice to do something outside the norm. And almost everybody appreciated your approach and and appreciated the conversation, and I think that bodes well for for what we're trying to do. Yeah, nice work work on your part. Yeah. So before we get into any of the conversation here, what's what's going on over there? You it's certainly you were telling me you had to to adapt to teaching from home, and you're kind of in We're not really in a hotspot here in Montana, but I'm sure you've got a lot to deal with over there. And Um, California, So update us on what's what's happening in the quarantine. Well since the last time we spoke. The last time we spoke, I was actually UM working at cal State Chico, which is about a hundred and seventy miles north of San Francisco. And then this year I took a job down in l a. Um and so I'm actually I'm speaking to you from Hollywood, California. I teach here at California State University to Ming's Hills this year and um and so I moved from Chico, a kind of bucolic little college town. I picked the wrong time to move back into the you know, the the layer of of you know, the virus here. So the good thing is is that California was a little bit ahead of things, and it's not you know, it's not like it was it is over in New York. Um so, but you know, it's still it's still not super safe. But I do have to say, ben I I do try to acknowledge a few things, Like one is I'm really blessed to be able to have I mean, my gig. I'm teaching online. I took all of my courses that were taught in the classroom move them online. And so I have the kind of job where I'm at least as far as I can see, I don't have a threat to my income. So there's a lot of people who are losing their jobs so I feel really fortunate. I feel fortunate that, you know, I'm not on the front lines delivering food or in the emergency room, So I feel pretty privileged. I mean, I'm sitting here in my little apartment and I'm teaching my classes online, and you know, so I feel like I want to acknowledge that there's a lot of people who have it really much worse than I do. So it's not too bad. I can't complain. Yeah, that's the same here for us. I mean, we've had a lot of so, like I told you Florida record, we've been doing. We did a daily show for three weeks and this is I think this is our eighteenth podcast during the quarantine, and it I am reaching out and trying to find as many perspectives as I can because this is such it's such a different thing for everyone. Everybody has a different way of experiencing this, and there's lots of hardship out there, and we always try to acknowledge that. But hey, I'm glad that you're doing okay and you're still you're still teaching, still doing my thing. I'm still I'm still corrupting the youth here from California. You bat stirred. Uh do you do you have any moments during this quarantine that you feel that you feel you remember, um looking back on this years from now, something weird that happened, or something prophetic that you you feel that is worth bringing up. Um, I feel like, uh what basically, Okay, So here's here's the moment I've been thinking about. Is I used to think that naively that you know there are there were um uh, the government, the government had things set in place, like I think about, like, okay, here's my gig. I'm I'm a philosophy professor. I prep all my stuff, I read, and I make lecture notes like going like I do my gig. My gig is not pandemic prevention. And I and I foolishly assumed that there are people in this country who that's their gig to make sure that this stuff is in place. And so I had a moment when you know, a few weeks ago, where I thought, holy hell, like I'm I'm not a survivalist, but I have a whole new respect for people who saw ahead and felt like I gotta I gotta have supplies and provisions because you know, like a lot of people, I was left, you know, thinking I gotta go to the store and stand in line and stuff. So I did have this moment where I, I guess I felt like like things are things are much more rickety than I imagine. I thought, like I said, naively, I thought that there's people who do this for a living, and and now I realized, wow, I really have to be much more self sufficient than I than I thought. So of course I started looking at like survivalist websites and I'm like, damn, I'm ready for the next one. I don't if I make it through this one. So that was my learning experience. I like the term rickety. I really that does describe it so well, uh exactly how I feel. Yeah, And I think for me to just realizing that the structure in which we kind of move on our everyday lives is fragile, and we're we're fragile as well. Obviously, I think we don't we don't sit up in the morning and realize either of those things, nor would we want to on a daily basis. But now you have to, um and it takes it takes form in a lot of weird ways. I've had some just really weird personal exchanges with people, where some people really want to acknowledge you. They want to reach out from six ft away at least and say, hey, I see you. I'm happy. I hope you're happy. And there's other people that just do not want to be that do not want to look anyone in the eye, I don't want to be close to anyone. Are just reeling from from human human contact. I imagine you see a lot of that in Hollywood. Yeah. In fact, yesterday, you know today, I had a little emergency in the morning with my washing machine. Yesterday, I went to start the car and the battery was dead, of course, and so I I've got my backpack and I walked. I hadn't I hadn't really left my house and like ten days, and I walked down to Hollywood and Vine to the pet boys there to get a battery for the car. And it was definitely surreal. Um, Hollywood and Vine is usually packed, and it was empty. But I did see a bunch of people along the way, and uh, I noticed exactly what you're talking about. There were some people as I was walking, we you know, everyone had masks and stuff, but there was this kind of like for some people, there was this kind of acknowledgement, Like we looked at each other and sort of either waved or you know, made made whatever a little connection like hey, you know, we're in this together. And then there and then there was and I count myself among those people. And then there were the people who man, they were just walking down the street, didn't acknowledge, no acknowledgement whatsoever. And I thought, wow, it's it's kind of a weird. Uh. It's like a sociological phenomenon when you're un there's this kind of pressure. How do you respond to you feel like you want to reach out or do you want to you know, hide? And so it was a weird thing. But fortunately I got home, put the battery in the car started, so I had you know, that's part of my like self self sufficiency. I was like, I can't be left without a car. What if there's an earthquake I'm in l A or what if there's an I gotta you know, I gotta be able to get out of here. So anyway, there you got more self sufficiency on my pod. I like it. I like it. Yeah, And for me, I've been been really focused on just how people around me react and and examining my own reaction to this whole thing, and even in the conversations we've been having in the last three or four weeks, trying to to make sure, you know, I personally document for everybody listening kind of what I'm going through. Like you said, my my experience has been just kind of like, well, I gotta stay home more than I would otherwise, and it's you know, and take care of two little kids. But it's not so at um. So I'm glad to hear that, so we can put that part to bed and get onto what I think everybody wants to hear because us talk about veganism, animal rights, hunting, and the like. Um, have you thought much? You know, our last conversation. We won't rehash you know, exactly how it went or or you know, I know, we both think it was productive. And in almost every listener that I interacted with back then and to this point, because it's still available for folks to download and they do, UM has has reacted with with positivity and supportive, supportive nature. Why do you think that is? Do you think there's something in their approach or you know, how does that make you feel? Well? Okay? So I did try yesterday. I thought, let me listen to that. I guess I hadn't listened to the podcast, and I thought, let me like kind of familiarize myself with what we talked about, just to get get it in my head. So I did listen. It's it's really difficult for me to listen to myself. So I made like about half an hour in. I was like, I'm not I'm sounding kind of foolish. So um, but first of all, I do think that uh, and I'm not just you know, this is not just false compliments. I do think that UM your ability as as an interviewer, but also your ability to um to see to be pretty open minded and see different points of view because you know, when we first started today, you said something, you mentioned something like trapped and trapped mentor traps. But that was my original reluctance was like, Okay, is this gonna be like a hatchet job, Like I'm gonna go onto this podcast and I'm gonna get you know, minced, and then they're gonna edit it and make it sound like I'm a lunatic. So but so that so I think, I think, first of all, a lot of the success if they're you know, for whatever success there was in our first dialogue has to do with your intelligence and your experience and your understand being an open mindedn So that was that was that had a lot to do with it, I think. And and secondly, UM, I think that you know, a lot of animal rights people or vegans, um, rightly or wrongly, have a reputation for uh maybe intolerance or self righteousness or holier than now kinds of things. And that's that's a position that I actively try to um counter in my own life as an animal rights person. So hopefully, I mean partially. Part of what I hope was successful about our discussion last time was that I explicitly wanted to come onto your podcast and make the point that, UM, there are actually a lot of issues on which people like you and I agree, and our positions, although in some ways it might be opposed, in other ways, are actually congruent and and there's there's room for like reasonable disagreement as opposed to you know, a hunter and a vegan yelling at each other or something like that. UM, and I have heard some other podcast with other gets. I won't mention them, but I have watched you know, vegans and hunters, and they it's it's it's just I can't even last a minute. I can't either. I do think that, you know, that's part of what I think the success was. Yeah, you know, I said we won't dwell on this too much. But I really do think that there is there's a version of this where both of these things are made on on each side, right on each pole. If you were to say an animal rights activists or a die hard hunter who doesn't really accept the point of view, they're made to seem like they're not an approachable it's not an approachable subject um. People are. People are scared of those social land mines that they might step on. They may be you know, I've experienced more criticism from within the hunting world, not specifically on our conversation, but just just in general as my activities as someone who produces media that I have from the outside world, whether it's you know, whether you put an anti hunters or vegans or animalrights activists. So I think there's a lot of fear baked in on both sides. I don't know if do you feel that on on your side as you try to push for a more reasonable way to talk about veganism and animal rights is is do you feel more heat from within that community than from without? Well, I certainly feel when I do things like this, I do. I do feel a little nervous sometimes thinking, um, is this going to be perceived as as me uh being like a turncoat or abandoning the cause in some way? And um and I and you know there are there are uh sections or sectors of the animal rights movement that wouldn't condone me even having this conversation. But I think, um, so I do feel some pressure. I don't know how much of it is real. It could be imaginary on my part, but you know I do. When I have told people about our podcast and sent it out to folks and you know, animal rights people, and I was pleasantly surprised I didn't get any uh discouraging commentary. Everyone thought, wow, that was really great, and people thought, like I said, Ben about you. People are like because, like, like we've talked about before, there's this caricature of hunters and there's a caricature of vegans. And I think people who I shared the podcast with, we're pleasantly surprised at encountering someone like you who you know, you're not, like you said, even from some hardcore hunters, you might get pushed back. So I think that was that was um. That was a positive side to this, was exposing not only me as someone who's engaging with a hunter to animal rights people who I've sent it to, but also your thoughtfulness and intelligence was people like, oh, okay, so it's not like, you know, it's not a bunch of wackos who like to kill things. Right. So just like people may have heard, oh, not all vegans are lunatic, right, So hopefully that that that kind of um, yeah, that disseminated among those people who listen to Go There's something to be said on both of these ends. I see, I really do see this lately as I think about it, I see like this is an active struggle for me personally. You know, I've heard this from a lot of people too, And a lot of people that listen to this show are are new to hunting, and they're in their thirties or forties, and they're wrestling with some of these you know, more ethical questions, morality, um, some of the entanglements of just kind of what is an essence of like a tragedy that you've inflicted on something like that is um. That's a big part of it. So I see this as an active struggle for me. But I get so much from hunting that I feel like I would I would be remiss if I if I got, you know, remove that from my life, because there is this active struggle within me. UM. And so it's a balance you get you feel that about about your own consumption and your own feeling about animals. It's like there is there is some active struggle with you trying to figure out a very complex interaction. Oh yeah, it's and this is something that I've come to over years UM of first starting out like many vegans, I imagine thinking that I sort of found the solution to ending suffering, and thinking that my own personal consumer behavior is in some way going to have this impact or it's it separates me, it it sort of purifies me in some way. And and then you know that that view I quickly got reality crashed in that view. And then the more I looked into it, realizing this is a constant struggle and it's a very complicated UM situation. It's a very complicated dynamic of consumption impact suffering and and and the way it all plays out. So yeah, I do feel um, I do feel like as I mentioned the last time we were together, the last time we talked, um, I do see veganism and and this kind of lifestyle as an aspiration. And there's no everyone has blood on their hands. So it's for me, it's a question of how can I, within reason, you know, within a reasonable amount, how can I decrease suffering? Here? I am in you know, the most affluent culture probably in the world, and I live in a metropolitan area. I have a you know, a decent income, and I have um the ability to make choices with my purchases and and my lifestyle and my being an exemplar perhaps two people who are struggling with how to be a vegan, and so all of this is very complex, And these questions of decreasing suffering, you have to look at them in the light of day. You can't think, well, I went to the store and I bought tofu and everything's cool. In every purchase, every interaction I have as a consumer or as a professor, these things have effects. And so too to think that I'm in some way outside the circle of suffering, or I've removed myself from that. That's just that that's see, that's that's a case if you if you, I think, if you believe that, it's a kind of a bad faith. You know, this is it's a bad faith. It's like you have to accept that you're a cause, you know, we're we're entangled in this web of suffering and and and and killing and and that includes human beings, that includes you know, people from non affluent nations, that includes animals, that includes the environment, the water, so all that stuff is affected by each one of us, and and and so it is. It's complicated. And how you know, the way that I choose to address that or the way you choose to address that, um, those might take different paths. I think the important thing, though, is to have that that kind of epiphany to say this is really complicated and to think, you know, for me to think, well, I'm just gonna buy tofu and and and be fine, or for a hunter to think, well, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna I'm not gonna buy any agriculture, big agg products, and I'm just gonna live off the you know, each one of those or choices that comes it comes with um kind of welfare or suffering a footprint, and the first step is to realize it. And then I think, and I think, you know, Ben, you're like this too. It's like being cognizant of the fact and that that. But this way you you said something last time. I remember you said, it's like you and I we sort of started with the same worldview and we sort of walked into different directions, but we both had the kind of philosophy of lowering our impact on the environment and the planet and the animals and and so um acknowledging that is really important. And my fear is that and I don't know if this is this is just armchair empirical, you know, speculating, but my fear is that a lot of people who are vegans and a lot of people are hunters don't don't get to that moment where they're like, wait a second, this is a lot more complex. I wish life were as simple as I'll just be a vegan or I'll just hunt for my food myself, but when in fact, it's very complicated, especially when you follow those you know, when you follow your your trail to the ultimate mode or the ultimate point of suffering, from your consumption. It's it's pretty complicated. Yeah, it is. And that's that's the one thing that I think about always, is it could be a solution. You know, it's a solution to a myriad of problems with kind of the constructs of who we are and how we move through the world. And it's something that starts out as personal, but then if you care enough, you kind of want to share it with other people because it's important to you. My I think the biggest issue right now with me, other than just kind of discussing some of the finer details of of the act of killing versus you know, the act of like the suffering and and something that we'll get to is simply the when when you think you have the solution. Right, if I'm a hunter and I say I have the solution, just kill wild animals and everything will be fine. Um. And if if a vegan or animal rights persons said, just just adopted this certain diet, this certain way of moving, and you have, you're absolved. You stopped, you stopped thinking critically about a very important thing. You stop being adaptive in your reasoning, and you and you stop being flexible and being able to change and grow as your understanding of these interactions changes and grows, and that's frustrating to me. And I think, um, if there's one thing that we could kind of examine here is how to kind of bring out of the shadows the bulk of the people who are just like you and I, who have very passionate about some idea, but at the same time are willing to accept that it's not prescriptive for everyone or at the same time necessarily only right way to do it. Um. I've just maybe I'm maybe I am suffering from reading too many social media posts from one or the other, but it just it just doesn't seem like that group is represented anywhere, especially within animal rights. You see, I see a lot of boy, there's a lot of bombastic, like over the top imagery and and a lot of things that are that are meant to shock people into into into paying attention. I imagine. Yeah. I mean, if you look at an organization like Peter People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, they are I mean, they're they're really brilliant at manipulating the media. Um, and you know, being being provocative works. I mean, whether or not that's I mean, whether or not we like it. So, UM, I don't really keep up much on the vegan social media as much as I probably should. I, but I see, I see you know, provocative kind of UM imagery, and you know, it does work. It does work to have people to to to to UM kind of like get people's emotions riled up and stuff like that. So yeah, I don't I don't follow it as much as I used to, but I but I do think that, um, I do think that the well, let me put it this way, there's a power there's a power imbalance and this is not and I'm not justifying any kind of UM misrepresentation, like if there are photographs or if there are ways that things are presented imagery that's misrepresentative. You know, I don't endorse that. I do think though, that there is an extreme power imbalance. Right, So we live in a culture that is you know, some people call it car no no normativity. Right, It's like it's like eating meat is just the norm right. And so I don't have what percentage of people in the world of vegetarian four or something. In the United States, it's like two. So it's it's pretty small, right. So, I mean, when you have a small group, a relatively small group of people who have this position that you know, oh well, animals are moral, there's moral subjects, and the overwhelming majority of people don't agree with that, or at least in practice, they don't agree with it. And you have a country with you know, thirty million people and four million guns. I think I'm not I'm when I'm trying to, I can understand where the um, the kind of like the anger and the moral outrage comes from. It's sort of like you're you're you're like a lone wolf saying and you know, saying, hey, pay attention to this issue. No one's really giving a crap about this issue. Yeah, And I always hear this is the one thing it comes up. And I said, I've said this in the past, and her repeated this over many shows that I do. If if I felt, you know, just removing on my own personal feelings for a moment, if I felt that this, you know, there was mass murder being committed and there was this whole the relationship between these two things was domineering, and humans were abusing on mass um animals as it were, I probably, you know, you would become an activist because that's one hell of a world view to take that that that's got to be associated with a lot of anger and a lot of um, you know, the need to be louder and louder to be to be heard. And that also the thing, you know, and talking to um Matt ivileiaves Matt Johnson from direct action everywhere. I think about that guy way too often, more than more than I probably should, because it was just like I did that interview before what you and I chatted, and I'm so thankful that I got to talk to him then talk to you. Um. I didn't necessarily think it was going to be as impactful having these conversations in that way, But I think about him often because one of the most disturbing parts of my conversation with him from my perspective was that he kept bringing in slavery and other you know, atrocities, you know, the holycaust all these other things that we're comparatively uncomfortable for me. But maybe that's the point. So I would love to hear from you like I've I've heard these comparisons a lot, not just from Matt but from others. Is that something that you're comfortable with using those comparisons to kind of to to help people understand the worldview. That's a really uh touchy topic and I and I think so so on the one hand, and just to echo what you're saying, I understand that there is um a comparison. So so let me let me back up a little bit. So, first of all, in globally speaking, about seventy to a hundred billion animals are slaughtered a year annually for food and products. Right, so, so the entire in the entire history of the of the planet Earth, there have only existed a hundred and ten billion Homo sapiens in the past two fifty thousand years. So every year a hundred hundred billions, say seventy to a hundred billion sentient beings are slaughtered, mostly mostly vastly and unnecessarily because well, whether or not it's required to have meat in your diet or to the degree that people have it, you know, those are those are different questions. So so first of all, the numbers are staggering, and I don't think that I don't think that most people hunter or non hunter, and most people think, yeah, like pigs and cows and chickens, and now with a lot of scientific data, fish and a lot of foul there other they feel pain, right, So so it's not a question, it's not a question of a question about the physiology of these beings. So you have seventy to a hundred billion sentient beings are slaughtered every year, So that's massive. It's you can't even wrap your mind around the number of animals that are killed for food. So if you have seventy to a hundred billion sentient beings that are for the most part, for a vast majority of their unnecessarily suffering and unnecessarily killed, that's a moral atrocity. It's a moral atrocity. So so it's something to say, Holy Toledo, what the hell are we doing? How have we gotten to this point where where we have this this industrial the system systemic um uh suffering. That's you know, such a high level. So so that putting that in in in in that in those terms, it's real. It really is start it's startling, and it should be it should cause people to stop and and think. Now, on the other hand, um there there has been a long history of people, for example, African Americans or Africans all over the world and and with regard to the Holocaust, Jews and Gypsies and other subaltern populations who have been uh compared dec you know, in a derogatory way with animals. Right, So there's this ugly history of African Americans, of Asians, of of of of Jews, right and so and so to compare to say, oh, yeah, what we do to pigs is similar just like what people slave owners did two slaves. There there's a there's a there's a sensitivity. You can't ignore the history. And for people, you know, they're African Americans and and and uh, other minority groups who look at things like that, Peter does and says like, how can you do this kind of comparison. It's it's it's really uh, it's it's totally insensitive to the to the history. And for that I agree, and I feel like that is something that's important and and but what I want to say is it's it's a it's a it's a fine line. I don't think that no comparisons can be made. I think it's important to do it in a particular context. It's important for historically oppressed people's to recognize that there are similarities between the ways that non human animals have been treated are are being treated, and and and oppressed groups, but also on the on the part of animal rights folk to just just sort of like really nilly go like this is just like the Holocaust or this is just like slavery. That to me is that's really being insensitive. And the last thing if I can can say is that um the reason why and going back to our conversation earlier about the issue of species is um and and and saying, look, humans are supreme, we reign supreme, and we're just better for all these reasons. That's part of the reason. The the way that species is m and human supremacy are just embedded in human culture. That can account for the reason why when someone calls you a dog or a pig, like the fact that that's even a derogatory term speaks to the way the way these ideas of species um and human supremacy are just embedded in like human culture. So so so even going back to the question of like why do people compare oppressed groups to animals in a way to lower their moral value, and that is why do we do that to animals in the first place. So it's a very complicated it's a very complicated relationship, but I do agree with you when and I don't know Matt and you know personally, but whenever I see um animal rights people sort of just nonchalantly saying this is like the Holocaust. I my response, I feel like, you know what, I don't think we're help you know, that's not helping the movement. That that's the average person is going to go, what the hell? You know, why why are you? So it's very problematic. But again, I just want to go on record as saying I do think that there it's legitimate to make certain comparisons, but the way that it's done has to be done thoughtfully and sensitively. Yeah, I appreciate that, because that's the one thing that I wish I had said to Matt and would say to other animal rights folks. It's like you, I understand, I understand. I think I understand. The point you're trying to make is that that we as as a human species, have have inflicted lots of unnecessary pain on each other and on the world and on the environment, on the world around us. Just as the very nature of our existence we are an imperfect, you know, an imperfect organism. We just kind of consume and consume and consume. Um, We've we've inflicted a lot of death for for reasons that now don't seem justified. I So I get it in making that point that you know, history, if if history is our guide, we know that we've we've made some some really terrible decisions as as just us. And so I get that. But then it just seems like a logical parachute and and really also a way of intimidation, a way to make people uncomfortable and kind of scare them a little bit into into kind of adopting this belief or at least semantically adopting this belief, which you know, if you really going to create a movement, having a bunch of people that are kind of intimidated and coerced into stepping into it, under like, well maybe this is slavery and maybe I don't understand it. Um, it just felt to me like every time we would kind of get into a point where we could we got into a sticky piece of the conversation. Matt and then other folks in the animal rights movement that I've talked to kind of used this as a way to just let's pull the parachute, and let's push this into a corner and and kind of keep it, uh in the frame that I need to keep it in. And so I like I just like you. I think I'm kind of I understand it in the way that it's trying to frame the conversation. I get it, and I do. And I always said, I think I may have said in your in our conversation or in the conversation Matt, I'm not one that's gonna say we've been doing it for millions of years, so we gotta keep doing it. Um, that's not in my playbook. I don't think that's ever that you know, we can learn from history, but we're not going to could just continue to justify all these things. So it's that's one that just bothered me personally. And I've been trying to work through it and understand it, and I just keep seeing it pop up. So I appreciate the way that you certainly take it on and and and moved to it. But one thing you said a little bit ago that that I had written down that I kind of wanted to discuss and at least get your point of view. When I've read a couple of different studies and surveys that UM sixty upwards of six or more of vegans, specifically vegans are in our our eating that diet or practicing that lifestyle based on an ideology rather than the nutrition of it. UM. My good friend Joe Rogan had a bunch of UM uproar around James Wilkes documentary on Netflix called Game Changers, and then he had Brian Chris Krasher on he was a nutritionist that was kind of refuting some of the nutrition elements of this. And I just sent Joe a text and said, hey man that that's fine. The nutritional part of this is fine, and I think we will continue to debate that, but let's not forget about just the ideological drawl here of veganism. Is that is that something you found in your and your teachings and and in your own community, that it's it's that sixty forty split of I'm here to inflict less suffering and I'm here to be healthier. Yeah, I know what, I don't know. This is all anecdotal. I think that veganism recently UM has UH has increased mostly due to questions of health and sort of like plant based you know, having a plant based diet as opposed to having a moral or ethical diet. So it seems in recent years, just as I said, just my observations, it seems like a lot of people who identify as vegan are doing so for health reason ends or maybe just because it's a trend trendy kind of thing. Um. When you say, when you say ideology, I do want to um. I mean, ideology can be a loaded term, and I've heard ideology used as and I'm not saying you're doing this, the term ideology can be like a signal to I think a better way to put for me to think about it is having like a moral or ethical stance relative to your your diet and things like that with with regard to veganism. So, so are there a bunch of people I think. Here's what I found is the whole connection between the connection between the environmental impact and this is something you and I talked that before, and we agree, right, the environmental impact of of agribusiness, of massive animal food production is I mean it's it's it's one of the largest um producers of greenhouse gas. So so there's a lot of people who are like, hey, as an environmentalist, I'm gonna adopt this plant based lifestyle, and then there are people who are, yeah, like I want to be healthier. I think the number of people who do it as as a for like a political or an ethical reasons for as a stand stand standpoint, I think that's probably that's that's probably the lowest person. Maybe it's forty percent. Maybe it's um. You know, so I do notice that that there is this. I mean, look, veganism, at least for now in the in the culture, relative to how it was ten years ago, it's it's exploding. I know that. I remember when I first became vegan years ago, I would if I went into a restaurant and say, like, is this thing vegan? People would say what is? What are you talking about? Now it's like, at least in California, right, And you know, I've been around the country in New York and Philadelphia, like I can go to a restaurant and say is this vegan? People actually know what the hell I'm talking about? So there is a movement. But I think it I think it does have to do mostly with environmental concerns or or health concerns. But um, and you know, please don't get me started on your buddy Joe Rogan. I think you know Joe, he obviously has an act to grind, and I mean we all have certain acts to grind, but um regard, I mean, I'm not I'm not a nutritionist, but I do think that there are plenty of people in on the planet who are physical living manifestations of of who have physical health, who do not consume animal products. So and I can't get into like, you know, this person said this and that nutrition as you can imagine, you can find a nutritionist too who will say you should only eat celery and you should find people at sake. So amen, because that's exactly what brings it up. But yeah, hey, to this point, the point of that podcast I mentioned Joe was like, yeah, I mean James Wilkes. He had Chris Krasher on to crush James Wilkes's Game Changers documentary, and then James Wilkes came on and just completely flipped the script and dominated the conversation and changed Joe's mind. Um, well, that's good to hear, because I didn't hear about the I didn't hear about what the Wilkes appearance, but I saw the other pressure appear. So wil Wilkes just basically walked in the door and kicked the ship out of Crasher and made him look like a fool. Um. And so for me, that's even more I I just don't you know, I feel like even in this conversation, I would like you said, I think, and I'm glad you said it. I think there you can find a nutritionist to say just about anything, because it's such an exploratory world, um for And so when I'm listening to that, I'm like, yes, I get all this, and you know he my iron and beat twelve. I under like I want to understand those I don't want to make sure our audience understands them. But I thought, you know, really, at the heart of a lot of this is, you know, the point that I think you and I can discuss it is just the death and suffering part and the morality part, because I think whether it's four or twenty or ten, it's certainly I think underlies many many vegans thought processes. And also it should underlie and I has to underlie many hundreds thought processes. Um. And so I think that's I'd like to lay I wanted to just lay that out to say that, like, we could certainly both go get twenty different papers, whether it's epidemiology or you know, data driven other data driven studies and present our cases to each other and try to, you know, try to back up what we believe the best diet is. But it's so it's cultural societal. I mean, there's so many impacts on health and then what we intake that I that in that way, I think I'm not sure if you would agree with this point. I think that if you were to look at you know, big agg in its whole, large scale agriculture, whether it's animals or plants, all of it has imperfections, um whether when you're when you're looking at And this is not my intention to kind of go down either of these roads too deeply, because I want to get to kind of the death and suffering part. But there certainly is large sky agriculture is degrading our soil and causing runoff. And then we've we've already documented large scale animal agriculture is bad for the environment for a numerous reasons. It's also bad for the animals if you care at all about their welfare. So I just I think maybe if if we could pause there for a moment to kind of get your comment on you know, feeding people out on a large scale almost by its nature, degrades. Certainly degrades are our Earth, no question. I mean, we have seven and a half billion people. By the end of the century, we're gonna have nine billion people. Um, if we were too, if everyone on the planet Earth were to have the kind of lifestyle that we have for the most part in the United States, it would require I don't know how many earths, four or five earths to produce those kinds of resources. So having this the carrying capacity of this little blue ball is just not up to in the you know, nine billion people that were going to have. And so we have this kind of dilemma and and and there's an intersection of many things like the animal suffering aspect, the environmental impact, the feeding of of humans, keeping humans healthy and viable. So um, yeah, these are really gigantic, big problems with regard to producing food for people. I mean, um, one of the arguments that vegans have at the ready is to say, look the amount of and every every anytime I give a talk on veganism, I usually get the question well, if we did away with animal agriculture, Um, then uh, you know, we can't. How are we gonna feed people? Like, how's it? How's it gonna How are we gonna have all these people being fed? But the fact of the matter is that most of the grains that are produced and soy and things like that, the go go to feed animals anyway, to produce meat. So so as far as lowering the impact on a massive scale of of the environmental degradation of the planet is a quote. Plant based diet definitely has on its side that that aspect that it is. It's less harmful to the environment. But the point you're raising is, as I mentioned before, in the United States, I mean the number is about forty billion chickens. It's about forty billion. Uh, well in the United States, it's not nine billion chickens. It's about a few billion pigs and cows. So there's massive suffering going on just on at the animal concerned just fully with or solely with animal suffering. So how can we have a diet putting aside for the moment, the environment, How can we have a diet that has a low suffering or a lower suffering impact and This is where I think for me veganism is is it contributes to decreasing the suffering. And and there's interesting there's some studies recently done. There's a really great paper that came out last year looking at the supply chains of like supermarkets. Because for a long time people said if people go vegan, that doesn't really make a difference, there's no causal efficacy from the consumer to the production of animals. But actually, it turns out the supply chains they have this stuff so dialed in that when you go to your supermarket, it doesn't take a hell of a lot of people to change their diets to actually impact the product animal production side. So I think I think that's it really does. As a vegan, you really can make a difference in decreasing animal suffering. And I know you've been and people like you who are hunters. I mean, part of your my understanding isn't correct me if I'm wrong, is you're not a big fan of like going to the supermarket and buying a steak and wrapped in plastic and taking it home, right, I mean, oh no, I would never. I would never do it, Like I'm if I just went a year without killing an animal. I would begrudgingly borrow wild meat from my friends that I would just My wife and I have arguments about this all the time. I say, like, you do not for any reason, you know, and she always pushes me like, well, I'd love to have some lunch meat. What are you gonna do about that? So we have this a little bit of an adversarial relationship around like, hey, we can't just eat all elk all year, idiot, Like we have to have some varied some varied meats like white meats and in different things. It's just not palatable for our family. So we do have of that. But yeah, yeah, that that that point really I think goes to like where do we where we agree? Like it just every I've had it since we you know, our conversation actually yours and mine last time really inspired me to go down and we've done this. I mean, we've talked about regenative agriculture on this show. I visited I've visit a ranch in Texas and got to see regenerative agriculture firsthand and learned about soil health and soil biology. Um, we've had you know, other folks on the on the program that I've sure started like local butchery co ops where people are um able to butcher their own animals and share the meat and kind of everybody knows where the meat comes from. So all of this is kind of inspired meating to to understand more of the tangible, let less the intangible, the the idea that there is some diet, whether it's you know, because because the question I always ask is veganism is better, Well, what form of veganism. Veganism comes in so many different forms. I'm sure, um, I don't practice it, but I know and I know wild people that are hunters take part in the practice in many different forms. Some people kill one deer a year and just eat that deer, and also by steaks. Um. Some people like me really abhorre um that factory farming and not knowing wrong meat comes from. Because as I, as we'll discussed here in a little bit, like I kind of know what that death feels like, and I know what it is to look that in the eye, and I would never um want to be a proxy for that um anywhere else. So it's like those understandings lead me to kind of maybe a little bit of an animal rights perspective maybe a little bit of more over the vegan perspective of like, this is not sustainable on a large scale um And at the same you know, I said, at the same time, large scale plan out your culture is is in and of itself, even that practice is is harmful as well, given the many variable variables in that as well. So it's I I kind of just stop and say, I want to understand the tangible better. Who's starting a local farm, who is backyard gardening and keeping bees in her backyard and having chickens, who is doing what we said, what you said at the beginning is becoming more self sufficient in a in a more holistic fashion. And for me personally, and this is just me personally, hunting has brought me to that idea because it taught me what I could do in my own self sufficiency and it's kind of given me this aspiration to have a life that's that's holistic in that way. So I mean, you know, that's only my personal experience, and it's it's driven me to to to just say, like, what's the tangible rather than the intangible. But because I think all mass production and all the feeding of our eventually seven to nine billion people is going to be imperfect and just by it, by the nature of of what we're trying to accomplish. Well, yeah, Ben, I mean here's what I wonder about when you raise that the self sufficiency UM. When I think about the popular going back to our question the population um and I respect. I mean when you say something like, well, there's someone who could maybe shoot a deer and and make that meet last for you know, a year or how however long when you have, like I said, seven and a half billion people. Um, maybe you know, in nin ah the population was like one point six one point seven billion people, right, so now we've exploded. So what I what I wonder when I when I think about the choices that folks like you, thoughtful hunters have made and and think about self sufficiency, I also think about the problems of scale, like like, can you have the lifestyle that and each of us, like myself included, right, Like I'm a vegan, I'm living in a cosmic, cosmopolitan, metropolitan area. You're a hunter and you you you live in you know, Montana, So it's it's a pretty you know, it's not it's not a non affluent area. But for someone who who takes the position that you take, can seven and a half billion people live like you can center and a half billion people go out and get all their hunting gear and do the entire thing, and the hundreds of you know how much thousands of dollars to get the equipment and do all that and have freezers, and I mean so so so that can't happen, right, So you can't. Yeah, yeah, Well, I would just say that I have flatly part of the reason why I want to talk on this show and just publicly about regenerative agriculture and all the other things that kind of lead to self sufficiency is because that's not the case. At the same time, we've talked about lab grown meats and we've talked about large scale animal agriculture on the show because I know that I'm not It's a personal prescription on a relatively tiny scale. I mean, it's the number of huts like a nine to eleven million hunters in the US. I mean that's such a tiny number, um, And so I just just for a point of the conversation, I kind of see it at this moment as a personal prescription that makes my life better. It is not a prescription for for the health and well being our society. You know, on a scale, it just isn't can't be um, it's it would lead to ruin of our wildlife resources and our land resources. So um, it sits in a weird vacuum. I would say, well, I think it's important, and I appreciate you acknowledging that. Of course you would, because you're you know, you're very thoughtful and you thought about all this stuff. I do hear people. Um. Again this is anecdotal, but just reading social media and reading the internet, people who are what you might call local wars and UM, sometimes I think, wow, these people haven't thought through Uh. You know, seven and a half billion people can't survive on heritage pork from northern California, right, So I love it. I love the point. So this whole thing about this is like good for the planet. I mean, it's good for the planet for a small percentage of humans who have that that privilege. So so I when you when you acknowledge the way that you just did right to say like, hey, this is a this is this is not scalable. I don't think that needs to be um. Those kinds of um, those kinds of realities need to I think sinking and and when I and when I talk about people who are who are local wars and talking about heritage pork and stuff, I'd be willing to bet I'm just guessing, Ben, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people like that probably are not into hunting and they're not into like guns and like that. You probably find those people more on the hippie side. And yet and they're more planet you know, at least publicly quote planet friendly, maybe their priest whatever. But that's what's interesting is like they're they're sort of I don't know if it's a will for willful ignorance of Wait a second, the kind of lifestyle that you're that you're promoting, it's not scalable. So so at least let's least let's do what you just did bed and and say like, yeah, this is a preference for my own personal life, rather than act like this is a panacea and everyone. If everyone did this, the planet would be okay. It's just it's impossible. So you know, as we talked about this, you know, I think my major point to you and I'd love to hear what you think about this idea, um, Robert is is shrinking just kind of shrinking the commentary. I feel like at least we can get our arms around that a little bit. And that's kind of what I've moved to after being so confounded by, you know, how we feed all these people, UM, A smaller, a smaller, more prescriptive approach, that's like, hey, where do you live, what do you do, what do you value? Let's try to make you more self sufficient, improve your diet, improve your health based on the environment in which you've chosen to live, which you find yourself in. I think it's just I would just acknowledge that this is such, you know, the large scale conversation is such a hard thing to maneuver. UM. I've tried to kind of shrink it down just a little bit on my end, and I think that's I mean, that's I think that's an important component. Excuse me, but I do think so that's an important component for anyone on the food consumption spectrum and lifestyle spectrum. UM Hunter to vegan, I am a big egg producer. UM, that's certainly a part of it for me. But I do think for me, and for probably a lot of ethical vegans. Part of the issue is, as I mentioned last time we talked, this is a ethical or political um uh issue. And so as much as I do want to I want to do these things simultaneously. I would like to promote and and come and come to understand with others the best ways that we can individually carve out a little um lifestyle or way of being that decreases, you know, the impact on the planet and and and on animal suffering. Meanwhile, as I mentioned earlier, if we have seventy two hundred billion Sindi and beings in this massive systemic um industry that are that are that are being that are so ferring and being killed, that that requires more than me siloing myself into my little vegan world right, that that requires a political action or some kind of social justice action. So I do want to say I don't want to, I don't want to to find fully the solution in we all just need to take care of ourselves. Meanwhile, there's this system that is that has really gone off the rails. It's it's it's just it's basically an unsustainable system of producing animal meats. So I want to want to say, is while we're doing this figuring out our own personal and our own little ways of doing things here in our lives. I need to remain engaged with the larger political aspects of animal rights and veganism that involve ending the suffering of tens of billions of animals, mostly just so that people can satisfy their palettes or or you know, get these fulfill these preferences. Yeah. No, and there's a lot of that I agree with. I think the way the hunt a lot of hunting communities are set up UM really exactly does that as well. I mean it it says, you know, conservation is kind of the tenant in which we live by, and that that's health of ecosystems, that's health of wild populations, that's you know, we we live with like a larger ethos in mind. UM. And one thing I would say, one thing in in discussing kind of our food production system, the system of um animal agriculture and and kind of how we change that, I've I've discussed with several folks. There's one company called Force and Nature Meat. They sell captive servant meat, which I don't agree with, but they also look at you know, sourcing uh animal protein in a way that uses a virginitive agriculture and it's friendly to the land, and so as I look to those types of companies as possible solutions here UM across the board, you know, kind of divorcing the dow, we kill animals or not for a moment, UM. As I look to that, the answer they often give me people in that situation is the consumer. The consumer's lifestyle overall dictates what these industries do. So if people stop buying um, you know, factory farm chicken. If if the demand drives up, then everything else drives up with it. So I I do think there is some connective tissue. While I understand kind of the proclivity to be more of an activist for the message UM, I certainly m in a lot of ways for hunting UM, there is this connective tissue between what you do and the lifestyle you promote in your own community, and then how that's married with you know, changing how these food systems work that we all you know that you and I agree are not palatable for for many reasons. And then when you there's something you said that triggered a thought in my memories, you know, from the many years I taught at cal State Chico up in northern California, which Chico is in Butte County, which is pretty much an AGG community. Right, there's a lot of ranchers my students in my so I I started a class of an animal rights class in the philosophy department when I got to Chico, because there wasn't an animal rights class, And ironically, the class was chosen to be a part of a certain what they call these pathways, like different themes that students can take, and one of the pathways is the food pathway. And so I envisioned my class as being like a social justice or philosophy of justice class, and it got put into the food pathway. And one of the upshots of that is that in my classes, say of forty five students, I'd have twenty to thirty students who were no AGG students who were, um, you know, they were ranchers, their fifth generation ranchers, right, and and so as you might imagine a lot of interesting conversations ensued in that in that class. But this is a long, long about way of saying that oftentimes when these issues of consumer demand would come up, and in the industry, you know, big AGG because a lot of my students, they when they graduated, they went right into big AGG. Right. And so what they would say to me as well, look, we're we're we're merely meeting consumer demand. Right that if if if consumers didn't demand this, if there wasn't a market demand for it, we would be out of business. And and I think that that's a wonderful thing for us student to say, who may be in an AGG program and that you know, but I think you and I hopefully you would agree that it's a little bit naive. Right. It's a little more complicated than simply that consumers demand something and it's produced. Right. We we both know that demand can be generated through marketing and advertising and lifestyle and so it's not a simple equation that And I'm not saying you or you know you're saying this. I'm just saying it's it's a it's accomplished, complex dynamic that says, um, the meat industry, you know, milk does a body good gotten milk? I mean all these you know, pork, the other white meat, you know, beef, it's what's for dinner. All the West wasn't one on salad, all these the beef counts all these agg lobbies. They and I'm not I'm not saying people are you know sheep, but I'm saying there's a certain aspect of generating demand through advertising and through marketing that is effective. Right, So so that has to be acknowledged to that that when we look going back to our original point of thinking, like what can I do personally in my own life to alter the way that I behave and maybe act as as an exemplar for a way of life that I think is more sustainable, and then looking at the bigger sort of political aspects and saying, yeah, but there's billions and billions of animals in this system that are being that are suffering and dying unnecessarily. Um, it's important. I'm I don't I don't want to fully like villainize the the the AGG industry, but the AGG industry is partially responsible for, um that the meat culture. It's not merely that, oh, people want to eat meat. And so when you're talking about these companies that say, you know, when people's demand for meat decreases, one of the ways it will decrease is if activists who are who are shedding a light and not just vegans just people who are from different walks of life, who are shedding a light on the atrocity of what the agg industry, like you said, it's doing to the water tables, it's doing to the environment. Um So that that's what I'm getting at, is the activism for me has to be built into the lifestyle choice. And that's where I see veganism, not so much as a lifestyle or as an identity, but as a stance, like as a political stance to say, I want to decrease suffering in the world when I leave the when my day comes and I leave the planet. If there's something I could have done, even incrementally to open people's eyes and say this is an unstainable system, and along the way, billions of animals are being being are suffering and being killed unnecessarily, then I feel like, Okay, well, maybe, you know, maybe that's what we can that's the best we can do. Not all of us can be Gandhi or you know, so we we have to do what we can in our lives, but we can ignore the system, and and and and and and I don't even want to open this door, Ben, but I'll just use a word. Oh no, don't don't trigger me corporate capitalism. We we've never even talked about corporate capitalism, and that's a whole other discussion. But you know, we do live in a system where I mean going back to our original discussion about the rickety system and not being prepared and our our our government not being prepared. Um. A lot of this, or at least a large part of it, has to do with things like profit. Right. So so when when someone in the age industry looks at the bottom line and says, I need every quarter to produce profit, um, I'm not sure that person is thinking twenty years down the road, fifty years down the road, how are we going to have a planet to sustainable when you're always pushed to think about quarterly profits. That's not a you know, I think you would agree that's not a way to produce a sustainable planet. But just looking at the bottom line, right, you know, the nuances of this are are so many and so orton. Um. I try to think of a way how I'd like to kind of articulate what I'm what I want to get a cross here, because it's it's got a lot of these things have so many layers which is why I appreciate, you know, kind of working through this stuff with you, because you start on one thing and then it just kind of unleashes all these other layers of logic. I I guess in terms of the systems, I find that I haven't. I have a particular immunity to these systems, um. And that immunity comes from this idea of self sufficiency. Right, so in terms of the marketing of meat or milk or or whatever, um, if I'm able to build my own structure of health and well being and fitness of both mental and physical fitness and kind of like a life of my own that's sufficient, and I know kind of the cause and effect on a very local level, I'm I'm then find my and I do this personally, I find myself a little bit immune to the bullshit, uh in the mainstream media kind of I can tell when a lobbyist group puts something together because normally it's just a piece of pandering media. And so yeah, I think maybe that the worldview that it's crystallizing for me and hearing you talk is is there's an idea for me that you know, while we have this this time to examine these larger issues, and a bit of of that involves our own privilege as being affluent and in a certain part of our society. If you're able to build your life in such a way and whatever elements you bring in is up for for your own you know, decisions and structure is to say, hey, I'm immune to the marketing. I'm because I know where my meat comes from, so I don't care what you tell me. Or I'm immune to having to go to the store and buy as because I got a chicken out back that lays them and I know when they're good and when they're not good. UM that that kind of has a waterfall effect and it has in my life to kind of go further and further and further to to to create those value systems in my my own life. So if if we could, I guess maybe where I disagree with you is like activism on a personal level as long as we're promoting that activism by saying build your own structures, share those structures with other people you think would would benefit from them. Get yourself away from these systems, whether it's food systems, are all kind of our cultural structures that we know now that UM are weak and flawed and built on like what you said, some some of them are building corporate greeds of them are built um two emotionally and they don't have enough just just hard facts build into them. UM. But you can kind of build up an immunity to to that stuff. And I have, and I feel I feel really good about that. UM. So, I don't know where that fits and all that we've covered, but but that's I think that's that's where I where I land on kind of the activism, and I think it's important then too to take that stance and to take that um to take that position where you can build immunity, and that requires critical thinking. That requires critical thought, That requires understanding the systems and the kind of worldview that you are are advocating, which which builds this kind of immunity I people need, especially in let's just let's keep let's keep it to the you know, the the United States. You know that that's a difficult, Uh, that's a tall order to to to get an entire nation of people to start thinking critically about these issues. And it's it's I mean, it's deadly important. Our survival depends on it. But um and so like one of the my you know, I teach it to I teach it to state college at California State College, and I teach critical thinking. And I tell my students, um that you know, um, this might be you know, a general education class and you're taking this class critical thinking. What the hell is critical thinking? But what I tell them, and all sincerity, is that critical thinking is the key in in many ways, it's the key to liberating yourself. It's it's a key to liberation to be able to build what you're been what you're calling this immunity because and and and and there is a certain luxury to it. Right, there's people who are like a lot of people there there's half a million people who are homeless in the United States. Well, I gotta go up to a homeless guy and say, what the hell are you eating? And what you know? Why? So so there's there are a lot of people who aren't in the position that you and I are to have the luxury or the privilege to like to understand and build this kind of critical thought and and and uh and and and build this immunity. But that said, right, it's a worthwhile goal. It's a worthy goal to say the one of the things that's gonna save us, if anything's gonna save us, is having this kind of critical thought that you're talking about. And you know, when I look at and and the thing, I don't know if this happens to you, Ben, but you're it's like, I'm so immersed in the way that I see advertising or the way that I see um, food promotion or lifestyle promotion, or clothing from promotion, or a car from or whatever, and and I have this view and I forget. I sometimes forget, like this isn't the way most people think, right, And and these ads and these kinds of lifestyle presentations in these television programs, they actually have a lot of impact when on on. So it's like a wake up call. Sometimes I'm like, wait a second, I'm sitting are teaching critical thinking. I'm thinking critically about food production, about animal suffering, about capitalism and corporate greed, and and I kind of get lost and I have to check myself and go away a second. Um, this is not how everyone think, This is not how the masses think. And so part of the solution. It's it's funny because we've talked about this before the last time It's like there's a certain sense in which you and I our world used or our life choices, they're in opposition. But I think, and we've talked about it before, like if you pan out and get a global picture, people like you and I actually much we're much more in accordance. Um, we make make different choices, like we've talked about, but talking about critical thinking and immunity to these kinds of pressures, I think, Um, I think we need to acknowledge that hunters like you and vegan like me actually share a lot. Yeah, I I Like I said, I always go back to that analogy because I feel like we share so much and we've been we've been trained kind of within our communities and even without outside of our communities that were not the same, that we do have these worldviews that can't coincide with each other, and that there is this adversarial relationship, and I just don't believe that. And and to your point about kind of like what what is the masses? Um, that's one of those things just kind of like the nutrition of on all vegan diet or or all even all meat diet or whatever you might say, you you can find a lot of examples. Either way. I've heard a lot of you know, guys like Sam Harris and Eric Weinstein and a lot of really impactful intellectuals talk about this kind of like is there a mainstream are are we just being fooled in in in that there is one? You know, Um, there's a lot of kind of the democracy of podcast is a good example of millions of people listening to something that is outside of the structure of and this, this podcast is a good example of that, outside of the structure of what mainstream quote unquote media is. You know, it's it's it's not the Tonight Show, it's not the local news. It's not you and I aren't talking heads on a TV screen arguing for thirty second clips. Um. This isn't a presidential debate where we just we just hit soundbites and whoever wins it has the best sound bite. And it's not social media where people are playing an arcade game to score points, um, in some strange social experiment. You know, this is this is kind of a divergent from those mainstream examples. And and podcasts are huge, Um, you know, Joe Rogan's being like the biggest podcast in the world, he talks about all kinds of crazy shit. UM, whether you agree with some of it or not. It's so I wonder this is an open wondering of mine. I don't I'm not saying the mainstream is, let's give it more credit, But I just wonder how we define those things and how much credit we should give ourselves, because I do think that lots lots of people, UM, are in kind of the the unaddressed majority, well the unaddressed portion that want to think critically, UM, but just don't know where to go because mainstream media has told them that they don't want to think critically and they'd much rather just be pandered too. So at least we can open up the door and say, like walk through or don't. UM. But this isn't mainstream, It's not going to be structured like UM all these other things. Great point, Ben, I don't disagree at all. I think it's it's that provides like a check on my cynicism to think, wait a second, there is a democratization of information that can have a positive effect and UM. And that's part of part of what I do in my my critical thinking classes is I have forty five students sitting there for fifteen weeks. And you know, I'm not saying I'm not. I don't. My students don't know that I'm a vegan. They don't really know much about me. I don't. I don't use that as a platform from my polity of goal views. What I tell my students is when you walk in the door in in you know, in in August, and you walk out in December, if you have the same beliefs you had when you walked in the door, that's not a failure to me. What's a failure to me is if you haven't examined why you have those beliefs. That the purpose of the critical thinking is to examine your beliefs and and why you hold them, not to change them necessarily. I mean, of course they will change, but so I do I I mean, you give me hope to say, well, there is this, there is this, this this non um mainstream democratization through these kinds of media that can spread these ideas and okay, good, thanks man. I feel I feel I feel like it's like virtual hug. I know I couldn't hug you in real life, but virtual hug. But I'm like, we're okay, Uh, yeah, I do. I do think that. I think it's it's strange that, um, you know, this conversation comes to the points, but it's true, it really does. It really does to note that we can we can you and I in this conversation and we as is as the the the plural, like the plurality of everyone that cares about what they're eating that doesn't fall into these trapped sidal traps, you know, like we can be together on this um even if even if we're being told we we're not, you know, we can't UM. And there's hope in that. And there's like a lot of us thrive on this, you know, adversarial conversation. I I do not. I couldn't even sometimes even if I disagree with something you might say or someone else, I just moved past that because I want to get to a conversation where we can kind of examine not the not the positive motions, but these the kind of more constructive things that that that'll move us in one direction. UM. So that's that's just always how I approach it. But I do want to before we we go or um. And this I've been really drawn to over the last say three or four months reading about um and thinking about death and suffering. And that's it's really dark to say now I say it out loud, So that's real dark. You spend your free time doing that, do you? UM? But I do in some way, UM, I believe, and we talked about this last time. I believe that my proximity to the death helps me to understand and appreciate what death is. And I wouldn't I guess I'll say it this way. I wouldn't want to remove myself from the death knowing that it's being caused by my consumption at some level. No matter what, UM, I want to find a way to understand it. Like, for for example, if I would remove kind of the hunting piece for a moment. I want to plan a garden in my backyard. We have an infestation of voles back in my backyard and that these things are are destructive UM, And so my I have a choice now, like do I let them have a piece of my garden or do I kill them? Because I'm not gonna you know, I'm not going to transplant them or translocate them somewhere else. So you kind of I kind of have this this real life like life and death thing to work out. Most people, people I I that I know, would just kill of oles. They don't like They're not a beautiful animal, they don't have much value their rodents. They live underground. We never see them dead, see you without But I I thought about it, and and still I'm thinking about I haven't killed a single one of them. Um. And I think my my train of thought around that is due to my hunting Um, because I see death, I know death. I appreciate death in a way that's very constructive and also very dark. And and I have what some philosophers call kind of like tragic wisdom, the wisdom of the moral ambiguity of death and life and how there just is no certainty. So I've been thinking a lot about that. I'm interested just to kind of here because animal writes it so much about reducing suffering. Here your thoughts on on both my backyard conundrum and how you approach death. Yeah, And I think, Um, and Ben, my hat's off to you that you that you haven't your your knee jerk reaction wasn't to just decimate the vole population in your backyard. I think, like you said, most people would just figure that's the solution, right, get it rid of them. Um, I do want to disagree. I don't think les. I think falls are actually kind of cute, but that's just my own aesthetic. Um. But uh, I think when it comes to there's separate issues of death and suffering, right, so to to like disentangle those those concepts, um. Uh, the the the experience of these sentient beings like a vole or like a pig or something, or like a deer, So while they're alive, their lives can be there there there can be a point of suffering reached where um, just the life just isn't worth living. Right, if you've ever euthanized a beloved companion animal or something, right, it's like it's just not the suffering is too great. And so I think there's the question of the suffering and then there's the question of the death and and so um that the issue for me with regard to veganism and animal rights is this notion of unnecessary suffering. And the reason I talked about unnecessary or mentioned unnecessary suffering is because some suffering is necessary, right, like if you if you have you know you have kids, if you if you get then you know, you take them with the doctor and they have to get an injection or some vaccine or whatever, and and you know you think, well, there's gonna be transient suffering for a moment, but then it's gonna have a greater good. So that would be an example, of course, of like a necessary suffering to to achieve a greater good. The question of unnecessary suffering is like it doesn't really serve a purpose that warrants the suffering that's that's occurring. Like, for example, I don't think that my desire for a bacon donut warrants the suffering of a pig and a factory farm. Right, So so the suffering aspect of the sentient being for me is something that I want to seek to reduce because, um, I I think I think it's uncontroversial, right, It's like, unnecessary unnecessary suffering is a bad thing, and as a caring human being, as a person who cares about other beings, I want to reduce that. So to your vole question, I've had issues When I lived in a house a few years ago, I had rats in my attic and I was like, okay, so I don't want rats in the attic. I don't know what I mean. I don't have anything against rats personally, I know that they're sort of they're they're vermin. They're seen as vermin in a vermin it's a relative term, right, like in some parts of of Africa, chimpanzees were seen as vermin, right whereas we would say, oh, chimpanzees are beautiful being So my point is, I was like, Okay, what am I gonna do with these rats? You know, I don't know if they have disease, And so I did some investigation and I could have just thrown the you know, the the glue trap up there. But instead I I found these little cages and I read all about it, and I stuck their cage traps up there, and then I, uh quickly caught the rats in the trap and I drove them out to some mountain region that was it was like a half hour from my now. Now. I did all this not thinking that, um now the rats are free. Like as far as I know, I could have opened the cage and a and a you know, a coyote could have eaten the rat like a minute later. So I wasn't like I didn't have this this idea that like I'm I'm liberating the rat to be free and happy. But I just didn't want to kill them. And I thought, I'm gonna give the rat a running chance. And I called three rats actually in my attic and I let them go up in the mountains and that was it. So um so I felt like as a as an individual, I didn't want to contribute to that particular case of suffering. But now we've talked about this before, it's like, I have to have my eyes open, and we are all caught in this cycle and this system of suffering and the system of killing and the system of death and and so as a vegan, I want to say on your podcast, as a hunter's podcast, yeah, yeah, it's important to recognize that all of my choices, yeah, are are attached in some way to some suffering and some death. Um uh, you know, whether or not it's choosing to eat vegetables that caused the deaths of insects and they're harvested, or small field animals or in some way. So I I really appreciate the fact that you you feel compelled to address up close and personal the issue of death, because my fear is that most people but I'm going to focus just on vegans that vegans might vegans might um remove themselves or think that they're removing themselves in the same way that the person who goes to the supermarket and buys the plastic covered piece of steak and that's removed and it's it's sort of sanitized. There's there might be a tendency for vegans to think, well, now I'm you know, like I said, I'm a little bit more pure. But in fact, there's death all the way to you know, when you when you when you take the trail far enough, you're going to find some kind of death. So I really respect the fact that you and people who think like you see death. I see coming to grips with death and the death of the animal for your sustenance as an important component in who you are as you know, your character as a person. That's that's really important. So I I think I don't ignore the death aspect um, and I do think it's important to think about our consumption um with regard to the you know, the death death that it causes. And as a vegan, I want to say I cause death too. In my purchase. I drive a car when I get home from a long trip and there's hundreds of insects on the front of mine. I mean, what am I doing? Is a vegan? Should I? I mean, how far do I take this? Right? And so I think, um, veganism. And if you look at the original notion of veganism as as as when it was coined back in the forties, the the idea of veganism is to, to the best of our abilities within reason, to reduce suffering and reduce death. And so I think it's important for vegans to not delute. We shouldn't delude ourselves and and have more experiences like you're you're doing with your own life in confronting death. Now whether or not I want to go And again we haven't really talked about this um with regard to our our our life's choices. But um, then there's something about and let me there's something about like the person who goes into the supermarket and buys the stake and they can be divorced from the suffering and the death. And there's something really inauthentic about that that someone like you who gets an animal in his sight and pulls the trigger and ends the animals life and and interacts with the body and the viscera and all that. That's that's an important that's an important thing. And by that said, what I want to say, and and this is a topic for another discussion, is how how can I say this? I m my as a as a as a person, as a as a striving to be a thoughtful person who doesn't want to inflict pain and suffering. Um, I don't know if I could pull the trigger, like I like the act of there's one thing, if I buy a piece, if I buy some tofu and that caused the death of a field animal, and and maybe and maybe then like maybe some I've heard some hunters say, like people like you, you're just more horror like because you you're like the Nietzschean superman. Like I face death and I look at in the face and I'm not hiding behind any kind of facade. This is what it takes to survives, to kill. And and what I want to say is there's a certain sense in which I say my hats off to you because you have bridge that existential moment of an embraced killing. However, I want to say, I don't know if I want to be that kind of person. Not that I don't want to. I don't want to be inauthentic, but I don't know if I can do what you do. I don't know as as a vegan, as someone who values has my value, you know, possess the values I do. Man, there's something about pulling the trigger. And it's not to say like I'm weak, because, as we talked about in the last podcast, I actually as a as a teenager, I did. I have killed animals with it with a gun. So it's not about weakness or it's not about authenticity for me, And it's not about like Machie Mo, It's just about man like like it might be necessary to do it, I just don't know if I can do it, just like there are some things that might be necessary to like some people are like, look, I had to euthanize this human being because of this, you know it was it was a choice. It was like a Sophie's choice, and I had to choose. And I guess I want to say, is man, I don't know if I if I want to do that, So I guess what I'm what I'm doing is I'm both praising your decision, but I'm also calling into question. Um, what it's like, I'm not I'm not passing it. I don't want to pass a judgment. What I want to say is, Um, that's a certain decision to be a kind of person that I just feel so like atavistically un Um, I feel so uncomfortable with that. So I don't know what I mean. You've thought a lot about this man. It's so like I said, I have to like take a step back and think how I want to structure what I'm about to say, because it does have so many layers and impacts in such a different ways. Um. I guess I'll start by saying that act of killing and I've I've said and Michael Poland wrote this in his book An Omnimbers Dilemma, like hunting looks so different from an outside perspective than it does from an inside perspective. Um, and for good reason. I mean, just like you said, we're we are being raised and and we're coming up in a society. Now it's not our fault, it's just when we were born that is full of all these proxy activities. Where you go, I I buy clothes. I don't make those clothes. I don't know how they get here. I don't know what. I know. They look nice and my wife thinks I look cute, uh, but I don't know much about it. So I'm choosing like, hey, look that's I know. I know intellectually that it's not a perfect process how these clothes came onto onto my back that I'm wearing right now, And I know at some point, I'm just this being that doesn't understand that I'm just collecting things inside of a home. And I'm just collecting all these things and I don't understand why I'm doing it. I'm progressing a certain direction. I don't understand why, Um, I want more things and and and what why that's supposed to make me happy? So there's just a lot of like the the being built into that. So I I want to within you know, addressing what you're saying is just to say, like I from, I wouldn't continue to do it if it didn't provide immense value to my life. And what I would say to not you personally, because your approach is so even handed to other people that don't like what I do. I wouldn't keep doing it if I didn't feel like it had immense value to my life. Because I don't like death. I'm not a sadist. I I I'm doing it because of the the overwhelming value that it brings. And also that value has baggage that comes along with it, and I address that baggage, and I am choosing to explore pathways to make that not baggage, to really make it an additive to my life and this activity. So I address That's how I would kind of address that part of it, you know, to your to your point of, Hey, I just don't think I can do this. Um, I think that's okay. I think that is that is a reflection of all of of the conditioning of of where you've lived, how you've grown up, the values that you have seen that we share and don't share. So I think there's certain of us that that can do it. The point I'll makeover and above that is, I've had a lot of people that were in your position that when we do this, a lot of meat eater overall, we take new hunters out, we show them our value systems, we show them the way we approach it. I have never not once, and I can tell you it's it's only my anecdote of like twelve or fifteen people I've taken out as new hunters. I have never once had somebody do the thing they were so scared of that they thought they couldn't do and come out of it with the same level of kind of abhorrence that they went into it with. UM. I'm not saying that proves my point. I'm just saying that's my experience. UM. And I'm sure if I just took them out and then like, shoot that deer, and they shot that deer and it fell over, I'm like, all right, let's move on to the next one, they would maintain that abhorrence. So it's a killing is a practice that like requires an insulation of ethics and morality and discussion. UM. That does make it different if you approach it with a single minded like I'm gonna kill this thing and eat it, or I'm gonna I'm I love the game theory of matching wits with an animal. UM, So I think it requires all those layers. And then I guess the third part of this, which goes back to my vole analogy. I think I'm just aware of the series of bargains I have to make to move um to move through this, and particularly to that bargain. And I thought about this the other night. I was a couple of whiskies deep, but I thought about, you know, if I let the moles live, I probably can't because that these things are gonna propagate and there's going to be just destroying my yard. I'm not going to be evil to have the garden that I want to have if I let these things live, and if I kill them, i'll have a garden. Well, if I let them live, I have to go buy my vegetables elsewhere and enact of proxy. I wouldn't have had to do if I had a garden in my backyard. And so I might let these things live and there might be no suffering on their part, but then I have to Then I have to go and kind of enact some mysterious suffering UM through buying vegetables from a local farmer or going to the grocery store or whatever. So I would much rather kill the number of holes as necessary to to UM to grow my garden and have control over over that part of it. So I think that the constant bargaining is something that I hope if vegans listen to this. I don't know why I don't know why they would, but if if somebody is a vegan, listen to this, like don't and hunters too, don't act like you're not bargaining everything that you do. Like and I like that your approach is to just think about the suffering. Is it necessary? Is it unnecessary? I think about it that way too. Um. It's never perfect on any end of it, so UM, I think, I yeah, that's something I would love for people to to take away from this. It is like we always are making bargains and I'm choosing. I know, we talked about this last time. I'm choosing the suffering I can see and control versus the suffering I can't see and can't control. Um, both through my hunting, and then that kind of gets reflected through the rest of my life. And you know, I greatly respect that, and we I think, UM yeah, the issue of confronting the suffering, I think that's important in all aspects of our lives. With regard to what you what you mentioned earlier, I mean, there's the suffering component with regard to food production. There's a suffering component with regard to um dry goods and clothing, there's a suffering production. UM, suffering footprint with you know, where we choose to build homes and where we choose to live. And like I said, there's a half a million homeless people. Um, I do homeless work. When I was in Chico, I worked with a homeless organization. And I think there's an analogy here is you know, I spent um every Sunday in when I was in Chico, every Sunday in the plaza where the homeless population often gathered, and we would are our little group. We would talk to them and you know, hand out some some some clothe and stuff. But the main focus of our interactions were too to get up close and personal with the lives of these human beings and find out like, well, how did you get here? And what what is your what's going on here? You know, tell me about your life. And of course in the town, the majority of people, there's a big movement you know to remove the homeless and criminalize right. And what I would say in my and my um presentations before the city Council or in my letters to the editor would be like, look, come out of the plaza, come out and talk to the people and and and humanize them. They're they're here and the notion that you have that this is a scourge that needs to be removed. I bet you once you spend an afternoon talking to someone and and humanizing them, you'll feel differently. And so what I'm getting at is is that you know, you and I like, you've chosen, like we've both chosen this pain ath of like to to be aware of the suffering engaged in our food consumption. But as you mentioned as well, there's suffering all over the many chains of our interactions in our culture, in our lives and our society. And I think it's really important then this this point you bring up, it's really important for us too to confront the suffering, to to to look closely at the suffering. And and as my good buddy in Homeless Work and Chico Patrick Newman always says, he says, he says, in that suffering, in that death, there is invaluable information to gain to tell us about ourselves, to tell us about who we are as a people, who we are as a culture. So so when you and and for you and people who hunt like who we are as interacting with animals, and what does it tell us about you know, animals and their sentient live. So I think this is a a massive important point that you raise. Is is and again, we can't we can't spend we we can't spend every minute our of our lives looking at all the different sufferings. It would just it would take up all of our time. But but by the same token, we don't want to bury our heads in the sand and shield ourselves from these realities. Right, So I think, I really do. I think you make a such a such an important and profound point. Is that is that confronting the suffering and confronting the death, as difficult as it is, it tells us about ourselves. It gives us information about who we are individually, who we are in our families, who we are in our communities. And I I'm with you, man, I like advocate more confronting and the suffering. It's what it's gonna do, as difficult as it is. And I know you agree, it's gonna make us better. We're gonna be better on the other side of that examination. Yeah, exactly. And if if you you know, that's why I come back to. We had a Cornell ethicist on Dr James Tantillo in January UM and we talked about this, this idea of tragic wisdom, and I it is, you know, and whether or not you know, hunting is it's some sort of serious art. Um. And it is and it it starts to bring to to bear and it has brought to bear in me and hopefully people that listen to this show, um what you just said, you know, are we can we take this baggage. It's I mean, death is never going to be a positive. Suffering is never going to be a positive. It's always it's the baggage of life. I mean it is if to live is to to to suffer from you know, suffer from death. And at some level, um, and so if we can just acknowledge that and say, like what, that's where hunting becomes kind of a ritual experience to me in a way that and I would tell you that one of the one of the main rituals I've come to appreciate. I'm I mean, I'm thirty four, so I can't say in my later years like in my in my thirties. Um, what I've come to appreciate in this time of my life is kind of the transformation of this animal that has that lives in breathes and suffers, and has relationships, and has a natural knowledge and and has been created out of you know, thin air. And this is like just a ball of um. It is in itself just kind of morality. I take its life. I feel what I feel. Sometimes I feel more than I do other times. It's it's just kind of It's just a a very ambiguous thing to explain. But once once I get through that part and I start to take I take its hide off, UM, I start to examine the parts of its body that I want to eat. I take those parts, I deconstruct those parts, and then by the time it gets to where I'm getting ready to cook it, the transformation in my mind is so complete that it goes from this thing I struggled with, this ultimately beneficial thing, and to ride along with that from from the struggle to the benefit is where the value sits for me ultimately. And so I would say to all vegans, like, I don't want to I don't want you to go shoot a bunch of animals, um, but like find something that gets you there, that gets you from like the struggle. Two. It could and it could be your clothes. You could go you know make your own clothes and understand the struggle to get the textiles and get the like, get the knowledge and understand the abilities you need to have and then finally make a shirt that's comfortable and doesn't feel like shit like that, the struggle, the suffering, all of it. Um, if you can find something in your life that tracks that journey, you'll you'd be You don't have to be completely impervious to to not find some perspective from it. Amen, Amen ben um. So yeah, that's where that's where I where I sit, and I think, Um, that's where I think you're doing the same thing. Man. I I think you wouldn't be a vegan or animal rights person if it didn't provide value to your life. Uh, you're not doing it to make a point. I know you're not. Um, you're doing it because it's you feel it's making your your existence better and holy beneficial. Yeah, And like I said, I if it's even if it's just a little incremental difference, when you know, when my day comes and I'm like, well, I was on the planet for X amount of years and I left the place maybe just a little bit better than how it was when I got here. Just because something I did. You know that that's really what you know I'm looking to do is to is to really just reduce the suffering. As you said, you know it's never a good thing, but um I just I just I mean, it's it's m I try to fight feeling powerless as an individual, and a lot of things we talked about today, I think are in the realm of of like what can we do as individuals? And you know, in my in my darker moments, I do think can I make any difference in this entire system? You know? And but you know, on the days when I feel good, like we were talking about before, I feel like, let me put it to you this way, even if I can't make a difference, I still have to try. Like there's no there's it's almost like there's no choice. Um As as the philosopher Jean Paul Sart said back in the forties, he's like, uh, you know, the French were not fighting fascism, fascism because we think we're gonna win. We're fighting fascism because it's fast. Just it's fascism. And I feel like it's like I have to do what I have to do, and it's really maybe it's not really for the results anyway, it's just because I have no alternative. I have to try to live a life where I where I, you know, to the best of my ability, live as authentically as possible, confront the death and suffering, and maybe I don't know, if I'm lucky, maybe make a place a little bit better for you know, my kid. Yeah, yeah, I mean you're you know. The point you made earlier on was is an important one, Like we can do both. We can shape our own personal you know, impact, but then also worry about how are we going to solve this problem overall because we gotta impact our We can impact our governments in the way that they're constructed, and um our global society and the way that we treat each other and what we value. We can't impact that by speaking out and talking about it too. So I appreciate it, man, And you really do. Like just just talking with you, I don't know if this case be like, you bring out a lot in me that I wouldn't have this covered otherwise. Um, So I appreciate it, man. I think it's yeah, yeah, no, I thank you for that, man. It's uh. I love doing podcasts for this reason, because you come off like, hey, who knows what we figured out, but we at least are able to talk through some things that that I probably wouldn't have without your presence. So I really really do appreciate that. Thank you, man, I appreciate it a lot. All right, Well, you're gonna come back, aren't you. We'll probably have to. This will probably spin into many other conversations here down the road. As long as I'm breathing, I'm ready to go on with you, man, I love man. Well, we'll be safe, be happy and healthy over there, and um, we'll check in soon. Thank you, okay, Ben, take care many that's it. That's all another episode of the books. Thank you very much to Robert C. Jones for joining us once again. I can't wait to have him back the next time. As I said there at the end of the show and even in the opening, he I think brings out the best of me. He makes me think critically about very important ideas, and I'm happy to have him around for that reason and others. He's just a really nice guy, really thoughtful guy. Um, when this is all over, I hopefully we can share a whiskey and talk about these topics and even more depth, So hang on for that, all right, Well, we'll see you next week. We had a great one for you next week, that is with Donnie Vincent, the Great and Powerful. Donnie Vincent had a good conversation with him about his views on the pandemic and his views on UH nature and viruses, So stick around for that. It's an entertaining one. We'll see you next Tuesday on The Hunting Collective. Say bye Phil H two

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