00:00:00 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, and welcome to the brand new format of The Hunting Collective. I'm Ben O'Brien, new music, new guests, and just new stuff for you to listen to here the Hunting Collective. And this week I am joined by Ryan Callahan and we're talking about topics like feral cats and all the birds they're killing and and we also talk about Cow's love life and then he may be single forever. And then in the interview saving to the podcast, I'm joined by Cameron Haynes. We talked about the Adam Green treet poaching case. We do a little pack dump, we find that he too is as unorganized as the rest of us, and we get into his love of the show The Bachelor, So you're gonna love it. But before we do that, I want to get to another new portion of the show. We talk about our partners. In the first partner we want to introduce you to, which you'll already know who they are, I'm sure, but it is first Light clothing gear, every thing you're ever gonna want to put on your body when you're out hunting. It's first Light. And I've known you know, Uh Callaghan, and I've known Kent Caruth over there for many years, and I love those guys and I love their brand, I love working with their team over there. Um, and it's it's exciting for me to to one be able to say that that brands like first Light are willing to come on and say that their partners and support what we do here. But at the same time, um, it's it's gonna be good to wear their gear. Lets you know how it feels. Let's know my thoughts on it and be a little bit more involved in that side of things as well, so you know, it's not it's nothing new to podcast to have partners and advertisers, but it is new to this one. So welcome to first Light. I can't wait to have you on board for our new format in the new ride that is the Hunting Collective. So let's get started. I guess I grew up on an older road, a pedal to the medals. I always did what I told until I found out that my brand new close the game second hand from the rich kids next door. And I grew up baths. I guess, like mean, there are a thousand things inside of my head I wish I ain't seen, and now I just wanted through a real bad dream of being in like I'm coming apart of the scenes. But thank you Jack Daniels. No, listen, all right, the brand new format for The Hunting Collective today is four to nineteen and I'm here with Ryan Callahan. What up? Cal? I was just thinking you should have done this on because, uh, it's not to say that we're not we haven't had some THHD gummy bears. That's right at th HC the Hunting Collective. You maybe have popularized now the acronym for the Hunting Collective. I know you've noticed because I'm really trying. You really want this to be th HC. I want people to be as uncomfortable as possible. Well, I mean I think as far as products, we might be able to create th HC gummy bears, TC cookies, THHC rolled uh cigarettes and have it as like a grab bag. Yeah, like you don't know, you don't know what you're gonna get. No, it's gonna be th HC either way, which means the Hunting Collective And that's really on brand, right download the podcast. You don't know what you're gonna get. How does it feel to be the first guest in this new groundbreaking format that I've created. I feel great. Man. You don't even know what you're really doing here right now, do you? Not at all? But that's kind of been my life ever since I moved over here to meat Eater. You're just in a room with a microphone. I don't know what you're saying or what you're even talking about, um, but somehow you make it work. Yeah, there's no rhythm, there's no cadence. Um. I have come to terms with the fact that I do need to somehow find some structure for that, because I feel like I'm growing like a road weary, kind of traveling Saleman type of beer gut And yeah, um that all that old barber shave your mustache in a weird way. Yes, yep, that guy. Shout out to that guy. But there's there's no there's no time to deal with such things. So you just like keeping uh talk about I'll give me a feral cat. Give me like we've been talking. You and I have had a this is the year the Cat. The Year the Cat. Okay, hashtag Year the Cat. Everybody start using that his Year of the Cat. Give me a feral cat. Rundown, the Chinese will tell you it's the year of the pig, which, interestingly enough, is what cats taste like is pigs. So it's really just a it's a pig that's in much better shape and it happens to eat dear. Um. So uh, outdoor cats, not just feral cats, but outdoor cats. So the little old lady that kicks your cat out into the alley every night, like kitty cats, kitty cats yep um two point six bill um with the b birds a year. That's not counting small mammals. It's not counting reptiles. I have to bring up reptiles because your outdoor cats are directly linked to the eradication of several lizard species. Um. They're just doing what they do, but they're not. We're not saying they're evil, but they are reeking havoc. Yeah. And and just like the big kiddies, man, they have an incredible drive to eat or to capture and kill. Um. Just like when you're playing with that cat with a ball of string, like that's what is being triggered, Like you dangle in front of its face. It kind of gets the board, but if you make it run away from the cat, it aggressively pursues, UM. And that's what these critters designed to do. And you put them in certain situations like a big mountain lion jumping in with a pen full of goats, it just gets that response triggered over and over and over again. Songbirds are the cat nip of the wild. They are so yes, two point six billion birds per year. And and as I've pointed out numerous times already, if you think cross wise of that neighbor on your street who's got a bird dog and you see him loading up his shotgun or decoys or um, and he's going out even if it's every weekend of the hunting season, that man has less of an impact than you if you are letting a cout cat out at night every night of the year. That um. Also, we're gonna cover a few things here, but there's two things like that this new format we're having, uh this opening segment and then we'll have an interview segment in each podcast. This week's interview is Cameron Haines, who you know as well, UM, And in that interview we talked about a couple of things I want to get your take on really quickly. And the first one is a real sticky one. But we'll talk about it very briefly anyway, is Adam green Tree poaching case? Right? Even I have UM had several beers at several bars and talked about this and tried to figure it out and try to figure out what to say, UM, and both agree that it's this. It's about a confusing situation that I've seen in the public form, especially in the hunting space, for quite some time. UM. We attempted to contact the d p I one of our guys internally and they said no comment that which is the Australian government. Uh, folks that prosecuted Adam UM and charged him with with crimes. He's made a statement UM, saying that he's innocent. So you're gonna hear more about this when when I talk with Cam. But I just wanted to get your because we're gonna address that. I wanted to get your opinion knowing what you think of that whole mess. Well, it is a mess, and and I am torn because you know, to be flat out honest, UM, Adam green Tree is one of those folks that UM. You know. Actually, April Ookey introduced me to Adam on email. UM, two years ago now, and UM chatted back and forth with him, UM, and then UM tracked him down on the Instagram. Turns out he's got quite a following. UM. And I was like, Man, I like the guy I was emailing with more than I like the dude that I'm seeing on Instagram. UM. Which you know that I'm not swaying people. I'm just saying that's yeah, I follow a lot more food stuff than anything. Well, and I say that too about it him, Like if he was in a room this room right now, we'd be having a great time. Right. But to me and even to you from that that interaction, he's not just a collection of images and words on the Internet. He's just as a person. So it makes a little more complicated. And uh, and you know you see like this buff, macho dude with a mohawk. Um, they're a little mohawk. I don't know what the care is for that, and um short mohawk. And uh, you know, I guess I'm biased. Um, But man met him and his wife at a trigger event and fantastic people Like I would invite them into my home if I had one. Yeah, I would invite them into my fictitious my fictitious home and we would have a great time. I'm sure. So I really really like the guy. And then, um, as this saga has kind of come to light, um, I am just dying to hear the story and I and the story has not been given. Yeah, we were just reading. We were just reading some of the comments from the d P. I there they like, I said, that's that for those are in the know. This the governmental agency that attempted to charge well a charge and attempt to prosecute Adam for poaching red deer in the National Park. Those folks gave us no comment, but then their public comments were like you know, know where you're hunting right what? And Adams comments were they framed me. I didn't do this, they planted evidence. And so here we are trying to make sense of all that. But I think we can say I can say that the guy's my friend. I like him. You'll hear in our conversation with Cam that. But we don't agree with poaching. We don't agree with we We soundly reject the idea that you were hunting, even in a gray area where you're not sure where you are, be sure where you are always. Yeah, it's just general responsibility. Yeah, I mean we should even have to say that don't know where your feet are on the planet, But yeah, I do want to say, like, the thing that I find quite irks him is I feel like both of the characters of Adam green Tree that I'm aware of, like the macho, uh, super killer bow hunter dude, would make a clear statement, and I feel like the sweetheart, super nice dude that I want to hang out with an ab of beer would make a statement. And there there just hasn't been a clear Yeah, I mean to be clear, he didn't make a statement, but in his statement it just bounced all over the place. It was hard to understand what he was even saying. You know, if you or I did that, it would be like I'm innocent and that's it. I didn't do it. I'm not. I didn't. I wasn't there, and this is how I should have known where I was. I didn't, and I'm sorry. You know, one of those two things is the truth, Like, there isn't any gray area, like I thought I was somewhere they marked. I don't know. But we haven't really heard from Adam, so we won't belabor the point or go over every mindy detail of this potion casefice to say you'll hear more about in this podcast, but um, it's just important to talk about. Yes, um the other thing that we talked about here and I want you to come in on. Have you ever seen a show called The Bachelor? It's on ABC. I have not seen the show. I am aware aware of it. Did they pull some dude who probably should have been married off long ago and U but he is a bachelor? And the Yeah, they have some ladies desperate women, Yeah, who are probably in the same situation of like, well, why can't I find the so's It's not my fault, right, No, no way, it likes me, so at least they have that as you have that. I mean, yeah, so you're there. Would you be willing to because it certain about campaigns. Is a big fan of The Bachelor. He probably would be mad at me for we're feeling this, but he watched it. We watched it together, and I enjoyed it. I thought it was very innertaining. Would you be willing to go on The Bachelor? The fine love? No? No, I mean I find that there there's no way that that is the way you find love. Are you sure, because it's very entertaining. They got there was crying. This fellow that was on there, Coulton was his name. And by the way, hashtag Colton and Cassie forever because I hope they get together. But I mean, I'm pulling for these kids. They're really there. Really is true love uh three weeks true love uh. And she and these ladies that I and though we were watching it, these ladies seeing like, uh, they seem like they're surprised that this guy's breaking up with them. But the show is he breaks up with like twelve people and the one person gets to marry him or whatever or whatever the thing is, and all the women that he breaks up like, I didn't see it coming. I'm like, how did you not see it coming? The math is against you. There's no you're gonna get broken up with likely, So that's another fact. But you wouldn't be willing too. You wouldn't be willing to go on. It seems like a horrific situation. Um No. I would rather be the um fun uncle who gets to jump in for you know, uh good times with the niece's nephews cousins and then depart before any real responsibility has to happen. You feel like you're gonna be single forever. At this point, I'm kind of like making the switch over to like I've gotten this far alright, I'm here now, all right, I feel I feel well, let's make peace with that together here on the on the show cal Ladies, listen, it's not gonna it's I mean, probably ain't gonna work out. Please try. You might close the distance and it's probably not gonna work. Like Ben said, the math is against you. Get you, yeah, yeah, everything is against you. The man's thirty six. He's living his best life right now, other than the fact he doesn't have a home and that he is uh spread thin here at the old need to incorporated. But I do have a massive pile of debt, so that is it sounds like a lady might need to But do you have a nice truck? Yep? Right, yep? Two thousand nine. You've appeared on Netflix several times. What more do you? I mean, I feel like we're turning this whole thing around. Keep it, keep it sample all right? Well right in if you want califined love, and there's like the Hunting Bachelor, I hope he would the world never turns to the Hunting Bachelor. I mean, it could just be the Bachelor. I wish we could announce it now, but it's it's the one day after April Fools, so nobody's believing anything we're saying right now if we were to make any type of announcements. UM to clean up a few things from listeners and then we're gonna get onto the interview segment. Um, there's a fellow that wrote in his name is Eric Knox, and he said that, uh, he is using his YETI bottle as some sort of pressure cooker. Were you aware of this, cow, I was not aware of this, Um, But man, yeah it does. It makes sense to a certain degree. I think all you're doing is slow cooking your meat. You're not pressure cooking your meat. Um, that's true. There's some some you know, you got some gas that turned into or he had some liquid that turned to a gas that pressure has that canister. But so yes, there's a little bit of pressure in there. But um, I love the concept. He says, Uh, I'll just read what he's what he did. He's like, I grabbed a piece of deer tender loaned had in the fridge. It was from an older buck, and honestly, wasn't that tender. I blew some water and put the piece of tender in a six ounce yetti bottle. I grounded some fresh pepper and salt. Nice. An hour later, it came out tasty and tender, little morsel of meat that was utterly infused with the spices. I'm I'm a still hunter myself. I've never packed out an animal in my life. I don't know what that means. I figured Joe were probably hungry enough to eat your own arm by the time you go back to camp after tracking down, killing and packing out a critter. I thought this maybe an easy way to have a good meal. Maybe while you're cleaning the animal, build a little fire and blow some water, keep some money onion, salt and pepper in your yetti bottle, toss in a fresh piece of venison or what have you. Yeah. I love it. Yeah, it's great man inventive. Um, you're using stuff that you already have, doesn't require special equipment. UM. I love it. That's great. I like what he's saying there, all right. I like what you're saying. And that's all I got. Now we're gonna get onto the interview portion of the show. Thank you Cal for coming coming in and being part of the new format here. Hopefully it's uh useful you people listening. Th h T Cole's a big THC fan. We're gonna have something after the show, which means shirts. We're gonna put TC shirts on. Um. Yeah. So now we're gonna transport in time all the way over to Eugene, Oregon. We're gonna be joined by a bow hunting athlete and a very popular Instagram person, Cameron Haynes. We're gonna talk about all kinds of cool ship. So enjoy alright, Hey Cam Haynes, how's it going man? Good? We're in the uh, we're in the keep hammering layers. That what you call this, like keep hammering cave. That's pretty much. Yeah, that's what it says on the front door out there. Welcome, Thanks for having your home. Man, It's yeah, it's awesome. No problems because Eugene, Oregon, I know, Yeah, home with the ducks born bread, right, that's right, that's right. Yeah. So when I heard meat Eater was coming to town, so so to speak, I guess Portal, but Portland the same same thing that you could come and hang out. Yeah, man, it's sleep here. Just sleep over, getting her Jamie's stay up all night, getting her on your army Jamie's. Yeah, you jump around on the couch. You guys, go to bed, Go to bed. No, no, we're not going to bed. Shut up, mom. Yeah, we're definitely gonna have a sleepover. Um. I do like a nice more so if you if you maybe camp out in the backyard and for sure sleeping, read each other books. You can read me passages from your books. We'll eat peanut butter and bacon sandwiches. We'll be good. Life pastic what's um, what's it likely? You know you've lived in this town your whole life, right, I mean, what's it like? Uh? Because I moved around the last couple of years, and I always, like, I always think back to living in my hometown. I always wanted to leave, and now that I left, I always kind of want to go back. You know, you've been here for and you've traveled the world and done amazing things, but you've been in Eugene, Oregon for from all your days. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. I mean it's home, so it's uh, I like living here. It's a I like Oregon. I like the people. Um, I'm kind of a creature habit based, you know, other than traveling all over. Once I get home, I get in my routine. I know where I like to run, I like to lift weights, shoot my bow. It's just kind of what I do. So it's nice always to come back to routine. Yeah. Yeah, uh, and people don't you know you you have a certain way of talking. It's it's speaking, and that makes that routine uh, something people aspired to, right, it's run every day, lift every day, shoot every day, and you've and you've what I'm assuming you've tried to do, and doing that is make the routine, you know, something an aspirational event. Yeah, because a lot of people are struggling with how to get healthy and how to have a routine that's productive for themselves. I haven't really tried, but it's just it's been easy because this is what I do. And then I know when I share it it helps people because I've always done it for decades, but I haven't always shared it like every single day. Like now, social media is about, you know, people want to know every day what you're doing. What do you do this morning, this afternoon, it's like you can't if your content is good and the people that follow you are engaged, they can't get enough of it, you know. I mean, if I'm doing cool stuff, I could post ten times a day. So it just has made sharing what I do. You know, it's what I do is no different, but sharing it is. And yeah, as you said, some people, I don't know if they needed it or we all maybe need inspiration at some time, one time or another. But it's been good. But I wanted to get to that later on, and I feel like that's just a good thing to dive right into. Is is how do you feel like people want to get inspiration? Right? I mean, I feel like people more now than ever one inspiration. Maybe they're searching for it, you know, because there's so many voices out there for them to listen to, maybe more than ever. I I'm sure when you were coming up, certainly when I was coming up, there was some hunting videos out there, some magazines, and that was kind of it. There wasn't a whole lot of else out there. So what do you feel like, you know, is the is your major connection with people? Because there's a lot of people that connect with you and are inspired by you, like I'd be interested here. You break that relationship down as you see it, because it's important. Yeah. Yeah, I think one thing about my following is it's varied. Some people they are runners, or they want to be runners, or they want to be more active. Some people are archers, and you know, they just know they. I mean, if I put up a I haven't done in a while. But YouTube videos of just me just shooting a bow and talking about shooting a bow hugely popular. So some people just the the shooting a bow is, um, it's swatching an arrow fly. It's just something people enjoying. It's that there's a beauty in the ark of an arrow. Um. And then some people might come for even the lifting videos because they don't know what to do, so they're like, oh, let's see what he's doing to I'm gonna mimic this on my next workout. And then and then just in general, I try to uh maximize each day. And you know, people are always very concerned with how much sleep. I get far more concerned than yeah, I feel after our sleep over them. I'm staying up late in it, right, But people are you know, I'm not worried about how much sleep I get. I just know what I want to get done and got to get done that day to to make me feel like I put in a full effort. And uh, I just know that. You know, people come for different reasons and they and they might just need just a little shot of energy that day or inspiration to get up and get out of bed and get going and finking offer that and and oh, as I started to say, I got distracted to sleepover talk but it is exciting. What are we gonna do? Yeah, it's just like the greatest day for me is one where I feel like I gave a full effort like that, Like we ran, me and my friend Corney ran the Grand Canyon on Saturday, and I felt like that day that was just the best day ever because I couldn't have done anymore. It's like we ran from one of the Grand Canyon to the other and back, and it's just like that's all I want to do every day is just give that kind of effort. So people like to see that come to life. Yeah, I mean running the Grand Canyon. I mean, you're It's just that's an amazing feed for someone's life. To to put it in terms of like I just went over there and ran around. Yeah, is I think that's what part of what people are drawn to. Um, that's always interesting for me. Like this is new for you. I mean when I first heard about you, was reading your reading your book, and then you get into this day and age where we're just talking about in the kitchen there there's there's like there's a lot of hate, there's a lot of love, and there's a lot of feedback. The feedback loop is keeps on going and going and going, and um, you kind of have to live in that feedback loop. There's nothing else you can do because there's so much good there. You can't throw that all the way for a few people that don't like what's happening, you know, So on days you'd like to just delete the whole thing. But when you look at really look at the numbers, it's like I might get ten, maybe on a bad day, ten negative comments and how many thousands of positive So it's just like I'd be being a little overly sensitive to the baby out with the bathwater, and it's just like it's not but it's just like those negative ones and it's our culture nowadays. They love lifting people up to this higher than, you know, a higher pedestal than anybody ever deserves, only because they enjoy tearing them down. Not the same people. I'm not saying that, but I mean people love to see they're there. I'm not gonna say idols, because I don't want to act like I'm an idol to anybody. But they just love knocking people down. That's it. I don't know why, it's just it's a it's just a weird time and social media has given people a chance to knock people down often. Yeah. I think if a lot of if if those like a lot of folks could sit in the trailing ups and I think what they would want to ask you. I think part of that would be how do you know you talk about social media so much and so much of your identities there, at least the people that don't know you. I know you, Yeah, I know who you are. You know, we founded together, we spend some time together. To that extent, I know you. Um, do you feel like someone could really get to know you through social media through what your post? No? No, no, no, not at all. I mean, and and you can't really that's a That's the thing, is you feel like you know that person because you're checking on them every day, But you don't really know somebody. You know, Um, you get a glimpse into their life and you're it's usually the highlights I try to share, you know. I struggle just like anybody, or have bad days, or there's stuff that goes on in my life and I try to share that too, because I wanted to be authentic. And it's one reason why my social media has been I think popular, is because it's I try to keep it as real as possible. And uh, but yeah, you can't. Still, there's nothing like being a hunting camp or running around or shooting a bow with somebody and and b s sing. You know, that's how you get to know somebody. So um, what happens, it's like it's this weird relationship though. And what I don't like is if I make a mistake or if I screw up, or if I if I you know, I've had people say that. Um, I don't know. I can't think of an example right now, but I don't want to feel like I let somebody down because they feel like they know me. Um. And if whatever happens, the interaction wasn't it they envisioned, or if there's a lot going on and it's not you know, as as intimate as they wanted, like more as much time or whatever, and then I've they somehow it comes out that I may have let them down. I hate that. I don't like that. But uh, it's just part of the deal, you know. You you build this daily interaction with somebody they really feel close to you. I mean I had a guy, for example, made a I still haven't even responded because I guess so. So this one was a little different though, but he wanted me. The wanted me to be the best man in his wedding. Okay, I don't know him. Yeah, pay for me to come to his wedding, all expense paid, being his wedding and be his best man. So just think about that. Yeah, And it's like, so that person if because I have an assert and it's been a day now, he probably feels like I let him down, Like I wanted this got to be the best man of my wedding. He has hasn't even responded. I mean that weighs on me. Yeah, that's that's a rough one. That weighs on me. It does. Yeah, because you like I said, you live in this kind of bubble of judgment and positive you know, positive interaction, negative interaction like bouncing around, and there's all this all this stuff coming in and I'm sure it's hard to you know, for you, hard to you know, try to get your arms around at all and understand what it really is, you know, because I think just by our nature, man, if it's a hundred positive comments and one negative one, he would read the one negative one. I do. Yeah, And that's what that's you know, I'm I care, I care about people. I care. You know, you can say I don't care what people think. We all care people think. That's just the way it goes. Um can you let it affect you? Now, that's maybe that's different. And that's what I try not to let it impact my regular life with my families right here. They're the ones who love me, you know, regardless of whether I kill a bull elk or do good in a race, or if I made somebody happy there, they get they got my back, and that's what families are for. So I can't lose sight of I can't let outside interactions on social media or comments affect what really matters. So um, yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I don't want to just belabor the social media things. So I think that's, you know, that's all we're gonna say about it, because people know you're Like everybody understands everybody listening to this has a view of you, likely from from that platform. They see you. They judge it positive, negative, whatever. I find it to be in my own personal experience, a very confusing place to to live because there's data, there's numbers that say you're doing good, you're doing bad. All this reinforcement of these activities, and so I think we're all just trying to figure it out. Um, and some people do better than others. Yeah, it's a struggle some days. So we'll leave that behind, social media being behind. But I don't know that i've ever I've read some things about your your growing up and like you you've spoken fairly openly about your childhood and kind of how you came up and it came to be a hunter. So, you know, we talked about you being a Eugene, a native and haven't been here for so long, Like describe your first you know, like where you grew up, how you grew up, and just give us a quick rundown of brief you know, the years prior to becoming like coming of age and becoming a hunter led you there. Um yeah, I mean it's it's like a lot of childhood, you know. Ah, divorce, home and you know my dad. Uh, I lived with my mom. I wanted to miss my dad, and my dad was like a superhero to me. You know how a lot of kids are with their dads. And he was amazing athlete. So I hear these stories about him, but didn't get to spend much time with them. Um. So then uh, I went to live with him because I didn't like my stepdad. Uh. I missed my brother when I lived with my dad, and that was up in poor and I didn't really like living in a big, big city. So I came back here, um with my mom and uh small town outside of Oregon here and a small little high school twenty eight my graduating class, and uh, I like that. I liked the small town life. And it started. My stepdad started us rifle hunting, and uh and the first deer I killed, I was fifteen, killed a spike buck over running the edge of the Eagle Cap Wilderness as a meal deer buck, and they had a big deer camp, like like a lot of families had canvas waltens and poker and everything that makes it great. And uh so I was fifteen, my brother was twelve, and I remember I shot that. I saw these deer coming out on this little spine ridge right about a hundred and fifty yards away, and I had a three D magnum and uh put the wall on. Plenty of guys kills the one in cripples at the other yea yeah, And so I shot, and uh my brother we I don't think we had binoculars, Like I didn't know if you you know, wanted to look at something and usually use your scope, but we didn't even know what we were doing, right, And uh so I shot. He said you shot a dough And then I was like, I did I shot a dough. It's like that I didn't know. I'm like, you could shoot a spike over there, and so we went up to it and thank god it was a spike. But uh so that was my first deer, like a panic situation, happy, not sure, didn't really even know what the hell I was doing. And you ever, like when you when you figured out you killed the animal, did you ever take a moment and be like, oh my god, actually did that. Or when I was a kid, I never really did. It was more about like what my dad was thinking or what the next move was. It was never like, oh I had to sit down and think about that's nowadays. Nowadays, Now days you're gonna sit down. I collect my thoughts and I think. Nowadays, I think about you know that, you know I took the animals life. It's you know, an important process. Um. But back then, I thought I was lost. At the time, I was wondering where the hell we were, how to which way the truck was. Um, I had missed a huge buck earlier that day. It just came. We did drives back then, like so you can't understand. And then you worked this timber and here comes this big buck bounding like communjor boom boom boom, bounding through the rocks towards me. And I'm like, I don't even know where I shot. It was just giant. And so I was rattled from that. I thought we were lost. Um, turns out we were only about four yards from the truck. Yeah, that's kind of lost. Yeah. So that was That's how my hunting career started. It's just like you know, came our boots, uh oversized gun basically for a fifteen year old and not knowing if I or wondering if I had shot a dough or a buck when I when I only a buck was legal, and because my brother put that down in my head, and it's like that's how it started. So not really uh not you not a story book, not not the glamorous life of You're saying that your stepdad got you started and you guys had a contentious relationship. How was that? You know, obviously most guys you know, prefer their dad to be out there with them. How was that for you? Trying to get through that? I mean it was that was kind of like, you know, I wanted to share something in common with you know, because I would. I don't think I ever talked to him. I mean we we lived in the same house. But it's like he you know, he had uh you know, now he's a great guy, he's he's a he's laughs and everything else, but back then, he you know, had some issues and smoked and didn't have had a hard job. So it's just like you know, building roads and asphalt and on a role and that's it's just hard work. So it's like no wonder. And then you've got some kid, teenager who doesn't like you because you're not his dad, so I can I get to give him a break too, and um so he got to start a hunting just to you know, kinda have something in common. And it didn't really didn't really work. I didn't want to hang out with him, but I liked hunting, and so that's that got me started on that path. Did you you know? I know I can think back to my first time hunting and I could remember like the senses, smells, sounds, I can remember that stuff. You know. Whether I'm a manufacturing who knows, but I feel like I can. Did you know it right away? Like oh this is me, Like I found the thing I'm gonna do or did it did it take a while? Um no? But what I liked about it I didn't know. I didn't feel like a natural hunter and if like, hey, this is what I'm a predator? Finally figured it out. But I like that when I killed a buck that I got positive reinforcement from men I look up to. And so that, you know, there's a lot of kids, a lot of young men want that that positive affirmation and so that you know, if I had kill an animal it I would get that. I would not get that for any end, any other thing for the whole year. So it's like I would maximize hunting season. And then turns out I was. I was a pretty good hunter. I mean whatever that means, I don't know what that means. Um, I killed bucks and then my buddy really got me started bow hunting when we were nineteen. I think I think a bow hunter or ref hunter for three years. In the fourth year sort of bow hunting, and uh, then it really took off. The same thing as like I killed a spike bowl my first year bow hunting, and at that time, hardly anybody killed bulls in my little town with a bow. So it's like that was a you know, the whole thing is like people said, oh, you got lucky. Maybe I did get like you. I don't know, it's seventy yard shot, but um, I shot like for hours every day, so I put the arrow in there and the same thing, it gave me something positive to build off of. Yeah, that's huge when uh and you finally discover that, like and you know, that's what you're gonna do you. I think everybody that knows you knows about Roy Roth, right. I mean I think people they're such a connection between the two of you. Um, but you know, describe his interests into your life and kind of you know what that did for you at the time. Yeah, you know, I've done a lot of podcasts, and I always say that, I said I retired from podcasts and I wasn't gonna do anymore. Um, I said, we could do a very short podcast. You're like, listen, this is my retirement announcement. Tired of doing this now? Yeah, then I can always say, hey, last podcast is mine. I could always have the retirement announcement. Yeah. Well, so I just because I've I've said my story, you know, but like I said, yeah, people have likely heard the full the full story for good reason. Yeah. And so what I'll say about um, Roy and how he came up is in high school and I haven't I haven't shared this, but Roy was he was pretty athletic. He was year older than me, but he was always a big guy and and he um he would really get at baseball. The third base had an arm could hit um. But we didn't really hang out much. In high school, he had a trapping line. He would go out set traps in the morning, always like doing his thing. I always more. All I cared about was his football, mostly football, and so we didn't really hang out. But when a rifle hunted. He bow hunted the year before I did, so it was like the first day of rifles season opening day. Um. Here in western Oregon, it's like this place where we lived is Warehouser Land, and there'd be car after car after carter. We lived right on the road that goes to the to Warehouser and so we'd be up early and I'd I'd ask Roy. I was like, I go, I'd call him the Guru because he just was out there all the time trapping bow hunting. And uh, I'm like, I'm told my buddy Jeff, I'm like, hey, I'm gonna call the guru and see if he's knows got a landing we should go check or you know, we should go check. So I'd call him and he'd say, yeah, you know, go up to three thousand, you go to the one fifteen, you go out to the second landing, get there before light and you know there probably some bucks out there. And so to beat every every rig, you'd have to get up like it. They'd say you couldn't go in for an hour before for daylight, but everybody at the gate would be open, like at three in the morning, because otherwise you'd have a line of cars ten miles long. So we'd go up there and sure as anything, we'd see box and you know, so the guru. But then the next year that was my last year rifle hunt. Then the next year Roy he said, hey, you need you should hunt because there's way less people and a lot more animals. You see a lot more. I'm like, okay, cool, So we we started to hang out then and I ordered a bow from bow Hunter's discount warehouse, and I think my mom. It was a Golden Eagle super Hawk Turbo camp for like a hundred nineteen bucks and uh I I put it up at uh ninety pounds and shotten aluminum arrows which were way underspy and ways I can't I don't even know how they flew. And uh that bow is sounded like a twenty two going off and uh probably only shot still about two or thirty ft second. But that's what I killed that first bowl with. So since that time. I mean Roy, the point of that story was we came from different directions. I was more worried about sports. He was more loves the outdoors, and then hunting brought us together, and then bow hunting really solidified that. And then we would start planning hunts and trips and we never had money, but we would sell anything we could. So he had a thirty thirties Grandpa gave him that we sold for gas money to get over to the wilderness. And so that was that's where that bond built because we would just be like we would we would do anything whatever it took to to to hunt, to to live. I mean, we always want to get over the next ridge. I always wanted to go further, go to the Promised Land, and we've shared that. So that's where that relationship started. Was that your you know, was that your best time hunting. Do you feel like it was that the purest that you've ever um he had or it is just you don't compare to the things. Yeah, I don't think it was pure. It was more at that time, I was more I just wanted to kill. I just wanted I didn't really value of the animal's life like I do now. I just I didn't care. I was just like, I didn't even think about it. I didn't even think about how we all fit in this big puzzle and what uh just what you know how special procuring your own meat is and killing your an animal yourself and doing all that. I didn't. I just wanted to get your buck. Yeah, I got my body, get your bully. I killed bull. It's I always felt like, And I think about it all the times you think about we call it nowadays, and people probably think I repeat myself, and I do. Uh like the adult onset hunter, somebody that comes into hunting like thirty five or forty just out of curiosity. IM you know, I'm sure you run into a lot of those folks you have that that personally kind of comes in with that intellectual hurdle already build in. Yeah, they've they know that they have to step into hunting and rationalize things that when you're a kid, you don't even think about. You don't think about your place in the natural world when you're a fifteen year old dude out shooting a buck. Never did so. I always think, is it that it's necessary for you to have that period of life where you're just hunting and you're not thinking overthinking it to get to the point in your life where you you can then say I've done all that. I could sit back now and try to find this better relationship with animals. And you feel like that or it's something different for you, Yeah, I do. I feel like that. I feel like it's part of the journey, you know. I mean, because I know regards. So when you start, it feels like you just want success at first, you just want to know you can do it. You're you're you are a predator, you are a killer, you are whatever. And then you mature into a more seasoned hunter. So before you early, I think you started as a killer and then, like I said, you you evolve into a hunter with true appreciative appreciation for the land of the animals. Um. When we started off, me and Roy were just super competitive. I mean I remember being at full draw and him bumping me out of the way so he could shoot it a bull. So it's like there's no the old hip check. Yeah, it's just like you know, I mean, actually we were just young guys. Yeah, we we both wanted to kill a bull. It was no like now you're up you know, I'm just as happy for your success is mine. It's like, what that would be impossible. I remember seeing at in a certain bear camp where you at Joe Rogan we're shooting the freaking little archery tournament that I was like, yeah, yeah, a little part of so you still have that competitive streak, I know, yeah for that, but for for the animals. Yeah, the animal's life now taken it different, but yeah I'm still competitive. You know. That's my kids about that. So you know, I when do you break it too? Because we could, you know, I could ask you the questions everybody always asked you, But when do you break it to wanting to like take this stake that you learned, you know, in the stages that you learned it and tell other people about it. Because you broke you started to write, he started to communicate, you know, and you started to build a career around talking about what you were doing. I would say, earlier on in your books and your writings for East Visit and and different things, it was more like here's how to hunt, here's why the hunt. It was a more drilled down approach. Yeah, it's it's broader now, but but at some when you had to decide, like, I think I could communicate to folks on here. Yeah, um, you know that was That's why I loved hunting. The very first that deer I killed, that spike buck, I wrote a story about it for a rush and uh, I was so I've always had. I loved telling the story. I loved sharing my experiences. So I did that, and I remember my English teacher's name was Mr Howard. He said, you know what you're you're pretty good at this. You should refer the school newspaper. So that was my first ever I wrote about a spike buck my first book, and ever. I mean, I always just enjoyed the written aspect of sharing my hunt, and so that evolved from there too. You know, I sent any magazine, Oregon Hunter magazine or uh. Doug Walker used to have a big paper magazine called Western bow Hunter, and then he had one called National bow Hunter. And they didn't pay, but they put put your stuff in there, and you'd always right, and you say, you know, I pulled my Easton double X seventy five over my flipper rest and my thunderhead. You know, that's how people wrote. They would just say it's like, oh that your writers, which is how we know time had passed because you're shooting a thunderhead. Oh yeah, I know, thunderhead. That was it. That was like, yeah and and so, but that's how people wrote, and so that's I came up like that. And then it evolved into why I wanted to self publish a book. Nobody had written a book on blacktail, but hunting blacktail. They had on on rifle hunting blacktail, and uh so I I self published that and made a bunch of poor decisions, made the book all glossy and full color and cost fifty six thousand dollars and I didn't even have any money, so I borrowed all that. But that launched me into Eastman's. That was the next step. And so it's just kind of it always started sharing the communication with the written word. That's how That's how it started. I was like a lot of people probably know that about you. I think that you know, I think your your book has kind of stood the test as your back country the back country the Blacktail one. I had five thousand printed and uh I still have maybe a two cases. I mean, so they weren't like, whereas in what year did that come in? That was Yeah, So that was that twenty years years ago, twenty years and then so then Back Country came out in two thousand six and that sold fifty copies. So it's just like that's been on the good one And I got to give Eastman's credit for that. They gave me that platform and helped build that following and and you know with that book came came to be through them, and so um, yeah, I'll always be grateful for the Eastman's for that chance. Was there amo where You're like, man, I got a career now I still have a full time job still Yeah wait, wait, we gotta were gonna talk about that ship. Yeah, because I know that's another thing. I don't think people know you haven't nine to five job. In fact, when I landed, you're like getting off the five yeah meets, you know all Um, I think I know a lot of people just think that this guy must just run. He's runs, must be nice, must be nice camp. Yeah, um talk about you, like, talk about what your job is, because people want to know what your damn job is. Yeah, Like why you still have it? Because I know Joe and I have in the past, Rogan and I in the past, I went on campaigns try to get you to give it up. The biggest I think the biggest thing for me is I don't think I'm special. I don't think I do. I don't know if I deserve I don't know what I think, but I just don't I think that. Um. All I'm really good at is working, being a hard worker. That's why I've had success. And that's just my job. That's what I do. So I've had that that job for twenty four years. And uh, it's just, you know, the hunting thing is pretty volatile industry. I mean, fall of a sudden, I can't hit something with an arrow and things aren't dying. And I'm not sharing. I'm not you know, I don't know who knows what if something crazy happens and all of a sudden, I'm not of value to the industry. I can't feed my family if that's all I did. I don't think I'm not special. I think I could easily screw something up. So I'm like, yeah, I'm not that really that big a deal. I'm just gonna keep my nine to five and and make it work. And um and another part is hunting has always been what I love, you know. Um, And that's kind of got me into trouble a little bit sometimes with sponsors or potential sponsors where they'd say, well, we want you to do this or use a rifle on this hunt, and I'm like, I don't rifle on no. I know, yeah, you don't rifle hunt, but just for this hunt, I'm like, no, I'm not gonna do it. So it's I never really wanted to feel pressure to do something I really didn't want to do because it's feeding My family relies on it. Like you said, if you make hunting a job and hunting the job, yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, I mean I still understand. I still feel pressured to produce. But it's different because I'm like, you know what if somebody, like if a sponsor says, yeah, you know what, you we didn't like this, I'll be like, Okay, screw you, I'm gone that. I like having that. And I because I have a good job and my job over at the utilities, I'm a the superintendent of water and uh I like the people in charge of engineering and construction. I like the guys are hard workers. Uh. I like going into work every day. It's always a challenge and uh, you to wear a student time. No, this is what I wore. Okay, good, Yeah, keep hammering shirt. I'm just that's what I give people a no, Yeah, I wear a student time. Yeah. So, I I mean I like work. It's one of the few talents I have is being a hard worker. And then I like not not having my passion solid by money. Yeah, it makes sense, and it's hard to It's hard when you when you make the thing you love your job. You like you your job is to hunt your job. Holy ship, that must be the greatest thing in the world. You're passionate your job. They intersect. That doesn't mean it's easy. Yeah, it means still a job, and those things are tough. So being able to have that autonomy to to do things you want to do, I certainly worked out well for you. So yeah, I mean I don't. I'm grateful for for what I have and success and the opportunities I've had, but I don't. I don't feel like I quote made it. Ever, I don't. I never feel like I would never even think about anything. I always just think about the next thing I want to do. So it's I mean, I'm still hungry's still working hard. Uh. I still feel a lot of pressure hunting. I mean I've always felt pressure that I put on myself, but now I know that, you know, for filming an out cunt and there's you know, a wide camera guy there, tight camera guy there, a photographer there. It's like and then somebody's gonna edit the film. You know it's gonna be I don't know writing on if I can make a shot, that's pressure. That's pressure. And the animal doesn't care. The animal could care less about what you can play. And so it's like bo and bow hunting is like it's easy to screw up. It is really easy to screw up. I shoot my boat every single day hoping I don't but there's no guarantee. So that's you know, you know, there's there's times. Uh, I mean you can't let the pressure get to you, but it's I know it's there. And how do you remain I go through this a little bit too, But how do you remain ethical in that situation? Like what do you what do you do to ground your ethics? Because you know you had all these like influences coming from like camera, God, you gotta shoot this, gotta get a good shot. You gotta kill the big bull. How do you how do you balance that all that stuff and try to remain true you know, to the to the ethics of them, you know, of the pursuit. Yeah. Um again, I think it goes back to I can walk away anytime I want. Um. But you know, I don't like letting people down. Even we talked about the social media people. I don't like letting them down. The guy who asked me to be his best man, I don't like letting him down. I don't want to let a cameraman down either, you know, because that guy is doing a job. He's usually he doesn't get any glory. If I make a good shot and people see it, it's like, oh great shot, cam. The guy who got it seldom gets any So I mean he wants me to kill He's trying to do his job, So I don't want to let him down. So yeah, the the ethics saying are staying true to the to the hunters true journey, not producing something. Yeah, it's like it's a tight rope there. Um. But I I mean, I always my goal is to always do the right thing. Um. Never four shots. Always I want a merciful death on the animal. I wanted to make a perfect shot. I wanted to die quickly. And I don't still people don't understand this. I still don't feel good about killing an animal. Um, it's I know, it's dying. You know. Before when I was a kid and I did, I just was a killer. Now I do have a more a deeper um connection to the animal, and so the death is you know, it's not something I'm hooping a hollering about, which just part of what I do. Yeah, I mean here's something, uh that I have. I hope you're okay talking about? Like when a winner in bear camp? Uh? Was it some like three years ago now that that was Yeah, probably up there with John and jen Um. You kill the bear and then as it's in its death mold, you run over and you put your hands on the bear. Right. Yeah. I remember thinking a lot of things, but thinking this dude's crazy. Yeah, his dude's awesome. Yeah, And this is something that you can misunderstand if you look at it wrong. But haven't been there and talk to you about it. We skinned the bear out in the middle of the night, didn't sleep, Yeah, and we had some conversations about it. I remember thinking like This is one of those things that people would misunderstand if they saw it. But being there and seeing you do it, I knew why you were doing it. So to explain people that kind of that what you were going through and why you would do something like that, as we talked about just the evolution of a hunter. So now killing a bear is it's it's very important to me, are not important. It's just a powerful moment. And if I can be there and this is like a Native American thing, county coups. If you can, if you can be there and touched the animal while it is still alive and as a spirit leaves, you're there, and uh, that's kind of how that started. And um, you know, I don't know, I know, and I do I have I have it on film, but I remember we talked about that. He showed that it's just like people wouldn't get it. It's Hardy's going to understand. You can't, But to me, it's to me, it means you know, I'm there when I don't. And on that one, and I've done it a few times, but I'm there and the animals still alive, and I'm saying, you know, it's okay. Go and I'm telling the animal you know, it's, um, I'm just basically taking responsibility for killing it and and just there as a as a life leaves and it's uh, I don't know John Rivett too, he's he's you know, he's the same type of person that really values the animal's life. And you know you said you moved, but you know we've had tears on our eyes and we're supposedly big tough hunters. But that's that's that moment. I mean, it's it's a big deal. It's a big deal to kill an animal now, and uh so I don't take it lightly. I know, you know, it's I know, it's what I do. And it's part of how why we're here. We eat animals are uh you know, there are a resource for us and if we manage them right. But you know, the killing is still uh still not I mean, it's a it's a big deal. So that's that's basically the counting coup and and being there with the bar and that's that's a hard one to get it. Like, like I said that, do you do you just feel like it's hard to explain to people. And if you put the video on social media. I remember, like, I think you put it up and then it took it down, and I was maybe trying to convince you to put it up because I was like, this is I kind of was. I saw this and talking to you at the moment, like this is cool. You have to share this. But then you put it up. It's like you just open it up to so much criticism, and it's something that people just can't get a perspective on. You know, they would have to have done it themselves. Or no, they'd have to they'd have to have probably walked in my shoes. My journey is a hunter and done exactly to know exactly how I feel, and I can't expect to anybody else to feel that way. And if you do understand like you do, then I'm thankful. But I can't expect people to understand, um, only me. So that's just for me. So that's why you know it's probably not smart. I mean, the bear. Maybe I'll run up on a bear and it all, yeah, do you want to get a tack? And then then yeah, don't just say I'm stupid. They'll say, um whatever, But that doesn't I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. I do it for me and I do it. Um. I don't know, I don't know why, but yeah, yeah, that just came to me, and I didn't planned to bring that up. I was like, man, I just I just remember that and that camp was interesting for a lot of reasons, but it's I think it's the first time we've met, or one of the first times we had met. Um, And I tell people the story all the time. But I shot a bear at the very last minute. Yeah, like the last thing evening, sitting with John, like, bear comes in. It was quartering two shot. It was a pretty easy ran, you know, not too far. We got him up and got him back and it was, oh, I don't know what two in the morning, three in the morning by time we got it back because it's dark, it's light until eleven d there, it's a long drive back to camp, and we had to get to the airport like five in the morning, so we had a brief time and a couple of hours drive and so Um, everybody else scampered off to bed, as you know, as they probably should have. You were nice enough to stay up with me so we could skin this bear and get the meat all taken care of it a dual cooler. And I tell that story all the time just because it's that's the kind of stuff that we go through. His hunters like you can't when people say, like, what's that campaigns like like, looks, you know, I've never had a sleepover, although now I'll tell him about tonight's sleepover. It was like, you know, we're not best friends, but I had this this this happened right, and he fucking manned up, got the knife and we stood there and that it was raining two wasn't and we stood there in the fucking rain, and it was getting to bear together. Yeah it was two in the morning. You're half a loopie, yeah, and you're ripping the guts out of a bear. Yeah. That's just unique. It's us unique thing that not a lot of people go through together. Yea. And for me, it's I enjoy that part as much as anything. I enjoy the work party. I go back to the to the working deal, but I enjoy that as as much as anything. So standing there in the rain, that's a story, that's an experience, that's something that yeah, you know, the whole business part of this, we do this and it's you know, a meat eater and before that Yetty and I do what I do and I'm I'm uh, I guess a hunting athlete. But at the end of the day, those are the moments you said, You've told her a few times, so that's just what we shared. We shared that, and it's just like to me, those are the experiences, right is it? And I you kind of go back to like when you started writing and you're telling people your story and you're putting yourself out there. What is an expert or somebody with experience right then you want to share? But then too, when we get to the live semi live sharing of that, like you gotta determine whether I don't think we might have made a post or something when we skin the bear, but we didn't. We just skin the bear. Yeah, we're probably drinking beer, I would imagine. No, we didn't belabor that. It wasn't like we were trying to get a bunch of attention or what you know, late night bear skin and probably would have got some attention probably. Yeah, maybe it's kind of fun. It's it's just for us. Yeah, I said I wouldn't go back to social media. That fucking always gets me better. It gets me every time. Um, but you get like, where in where in your career do you feel like you know, you went from a dedicated hunter who did a lot of sharing of your story to be like said, like a hunting a folie, like a dude they got sponsored by people, Like where'd that shift for you? Because it was I'm sure it didn't shift on a time and it took time. But it's been a grind. It's been a grind, um, you know. I you know, and since you brought up social media before Damner again, uh, it always gets Yeah, it's I was like, I can kind of sympathize and not sympathize, but understand where those the hater troll dip ships come from because I was kind of like that myself, you know, when I was hunting my ass off on not. I mean, Oregon hasn't known for great hunting. Nobody's planning a big trip to Oregon from Utah, you know what I mean, or Colorado, and so it's not that great of hunting is the best that I have. So I made the most of it. But all I wanted to do is right and I wanted to be a writer and I wanted to share my stories, and I couldn't get a chance. And I thought to myself, God, look at these guys. If if I had those same opportunities, I would kill just like them. I would, I could do that, I could write just as good. And so I was a hater. I didn't have the I don't know if I would have made a post about it, like idiots do. Write a letter to somebody, I don't like what you're doing, put a stamp on him, yeah sincerely. Um yeah, So it's but I so the mindset I get about wanting the same opportunities and thinking that you could do the same. So I get it. I understand it. I know what that feels like. So you know, I think they're idiots about some of the stuff they go on about. Um And I don't see myself making a post or a meme taking a shot of somebody, But I get the I get what they're going through kind of a little bit. So it's good to hear because I think like people develop their opinions, right, they just develop them based on what they can see. And all I can see is is what's online. I want to talk about a couple of things in the news. One of them is if you were run and say you were running in Colorado and say that, uh, a mountain lion jumped out and attacked you, a full grown mountain lion. Well, maybe it's a kiddie. Maybe it's like a little baby. Yeah. Uh do you think you could choke it out? I don't know, man, You know, I know that has been in the news and you know comes out it was not not just a juvenile, but I think a kitten. Yeah, I don't. I don't pretend to know, Like we're talking earlier, I don't pretend to though if it was a little baby or what. But like it was a mountain lion. But have you ever tried to hold down a house cat? Yeah, it'll rip the ship at fuck you up? Yeah? So that what is that? Like eight pounds? Yeah, we're talking about earlier. Has anybody ever been attacked by a squirrels that would suck? They have large tails that are distracting. It's all misdirection with a squirrel. You don't want to funk with that squirrel. Uh. I feel as if, like I keep hearing and I READICALI was like twenty six pounds. Yeah, I don't give you that's a big cat still a pretty big cat. If it was walking around your house, you wouldn't steal its milk. Yeah, I'm telling you that right now. So I mean in killing anything, I mean killing the animals. I mean, everything has a will to live, will to survive. So you're trying to try to kill it. I don't care how big it is. It's not gonna be easy. It's safe to say that most of us haven't choked down any animals ever. Uh no matter what they were. I've never choked any animals now. Yeah, so it's really easy to sit back. Oh it's just a kitten. It's like, okay, what's your move though? Like if you're just just running, yeah, and you and then next thing you know, you've got to you know, you've got a kid, mountain lion, Yeah, on your back? What's the move? God, I don't even like a dany t like you can grab it by its neck, slam it. There's no there's no turn buckle to go off of. You go low. You try to get I don't man, I don't know, because you try to hold like a neck and then all he got he's gonna rip your four ft just tearing you up up. So I don't really, I don't know. It's a tough one. I don't know what I do to there. I got nothing. I would probably scream and cry. It doesn't have Yeah, I mean they got a tail you could swing around by. Maybe I can't. I don't know the details, but I can't imagine the guy just held it down and it choked. Didn't even if it was a kid. I don't know how it's gotten. It's got. I think he took a rock, didn't he. I don't know, a rock and hit it maybe and then't choked it. That's what you would do though, Yeah, yeah, I mean you gotta knock it, you know, unconscious. Probably get a big stick, That's what I do. Hit it with a big stick something and then uheah. You need a weapon and then give it a good choking. Our skins pretty soft. You need a weapon. But you never had any bear like serious bear running it's heavy, like real serious where you felt that there was you know, intimate danger something that yeah. I mean, you know, me and Roy hunt in Prince of Wales Island for a number of years and we had we had another time a bear we were on a blood trail is at night and uh, here comes this bear down the trail and we scramble. We're all we have his bow is we never had rifles but uh. And we got out of there and we got back down the trail and I'm like the bear turned out to be another bear. So it wasn't the bear we were trailing. It was another bear, but we thought it was the bear we were trailing. So he was like, oh, ship, here he comes. But we got down the trail and I remember stopping. I go. I told Roy, I go, did you push me to that bear? Towards that bear? He's like, well, you had the bow, he goes, I didn't have anything, so he pushed me and it took off running. He seems to do that a lot. So it's just like that's like kind of survival of the fittest. For for some survival of the strongest maybe or most or quicker. But um, so we've had that. Then one time I was with Rivets and you know, I would like sitting on the ground there having those bears coming close. Well, what time this bear came in and it's like, you know, we the bear just we might back up like you're you know, it's abated hunt. Right, you're how far away from the bait? Like I've sat there with you, it's not very far, a few a few feet away. And at one time you had just a knife. I remember you had your knife out. Yeah. So it's it's an intense and it's not just a bear. I mean, it's it's I remember herds of bears. That's the thing. My plan is. Uh, my plan is I have John. I tell John this too, and I'm like, don't stop, keep recording if this happens. But so I have my knife in my right hand. My plan is left hand, put four arm in his mouth my left hand, and then then stab under his armpit into his heart with a knife. What do you think? I think that's a that's that's nice. Uh did your wife know this? So in my head it works perfect. I mean, like if you punctual worings on the floor, you should start wearing like a kevilar sleeve. Yeah, Because if you're gonna have this plan, I want to help you out by saying you should maybe wear like you know, like chainmail like the Nights of the or like get some shin guards like for soccer. Yeah, so that would be I can't wait for that underarm video where you just pull up your jacket and there's chainmail and you're like, well, if something happens, yeah, here's the here's the deal. This is heavy and comb or something. I'm sweating, but yeah, so here the one time the bear came in and he just looked not good. You can look just like you see a dog and you look at a dog and you're like, I don't like sideways. I don't like the looks of that dog. Well, this is how that bear was. And and John said, you know, we need to keep an eye on this bear will end up coming around about four yards from me. And I was sitting on the ground, so to get up, I had to like lean back against the tree to get leveraged to push my legs up. I think I was on my knees. So I leaned back and there's that leaning back six inches the bear. I think I felt like I was retreat eating. That's what they want. So if they feel dominant, they're reading body language. Of course they can't talk, so they're always about how big are you, what are you doing? What's your body language? My body language was passive and so it got aggressive. So it came and then I stood up and it like close the distance fast, and I stood up and I was like, no, like that and stopped and it stopped, thank god. But uh so that was a little bit. And then other times me and Roy had grizzlies, you know, because that's what you say when you're sitting on a bait like that and you're in in Alberta there's grizzlies around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I haven't had any issues with grizzlies up there, but just in Alaska, we we hunted grizzlies and so we'd have, you know, just stuff going with them. But yeah, back to he did your wife know about this? Do you guys talk about it? No? No, really, that's okay, Sracy, don't listen to this. It off right now. She knows he's gonna have some makeing of like what you're you know, well, I mean, hey, you know, my best friend died on the mountain, So I mean, she knows there's risks with what we do. Uh. I don't know if she knows that I increase those risks intentionally, but uh, you know, you know, as I got as I said earlier, Uh and it goes to the hunt too. We've always just wanted to live life to the fullest. We want to. I like to be close to bears. I like to be on the highest mountain. I like to Uh, you know, people have seen the video where on the mountain that Roy fell from. We're up there and I killed I shot a sheep and it was right on the edge of a cliff, and you know how to go down there and pull it, um, stop it from falling over the cliff when it was dying, and it wasn't dead yet and I'm holding it. So it's just we just we're just trying to live in and just experience every moment, every hunt to its fullest. And that does come with risks sometimes, so she understands. So, Um, speaking of news, Um, you and I were talking about before this. Wee get there's a big thing happening right now, a big complicated thing happening in our world right now, something you're involved in. I'm involved in relatively indirectly, but uh, something that I want to address. And it's not it's about the definition of uncomfortable for me and I'm sure for you. It's not something either one of us even really I think I understand, but so we should talk about. And that's Adam green Tree and his poaching case down in Australia. Um. You know, what we know right now is that he was there was some evidence that he was in a national park and shot a red deer. Uh. The the wildlife officials down there say they have evidence and they charged him with with entering a national park and just discharging his bow. He Um. He delayed the case camp here, had about what six six to nine, you know, six or eight months trip with his family, and then went back um and pleaded guilty to the charge and then went to court and the judge throughout the conviction or gave no conviction. So he had no fine, no no conviction, and he continued hunting um. And so that's kind of where we are now. And he released a statement uh today or early um yesterday evening saying that one that there was there was some some corruption in the prosecution of this case. There was some planted evidence on the part of of the d p I in Australia. So it made some some pretty uh substantial and scandal his claims against the folks that went to charging um. So there's where we are. I mean, I think we both said were confused a little bit by it, and we both talked to Adam and expressed our feelings that he should come out and speak a little bit more of his truth. Like where's your head out on it right now? What do you what do you want people to know about? Yeah? About what where you are? Yeah? As of now, I mean, he hasn't said anything publicly that I've seen. There hasn't been a post, which I understand it's uncomfortable. Um, just for me, it's just the basics. Uh, I can't support hunting in a national park, can't obviously can't support killing an animal there. Um that said, Um, he told me he didn't do it, he said he Uh, it wasn't true. Um. He said that they were trumped up charges in my words. Um, and you know people have been trying to bring him down there. Uh. You know, I know I've seen evidence of haters and just normal stuff. I can't say this anything out of the ordinary from even what I get. Um. You know, when you're successful, you're gonna have some haters. That's just the way it goes. Um. So he told he told me that it wasn't true. And in my experience with Adam, UM, he I mean, he's been nothing but a h percent truththroll with me. He's a hard hunter. He's been shown honor to the animals, respect to the hunt, respect to the people in camp. So I can only judge that. I can only judge what I know about him, and what I know about him is, you know, he's one of the best hunters I've ever been around. Um stuff, you know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to say. I I told him, I texted him. I didn't I haven't talked to him, but I texted him, and I just said, you know, I know it's expensive to fight these things, because I do. I mean, and I can't. I don't know where he's at financially. I don't know what it would be like to be in that situation. But I told him if it was me and I didn't do something, I would never say I did. I'd never plead guilty for something I didn't do. I don't care how much it costs, but I'm not. I don't know what his bills are, I don't know where he is. I don't know. I can't it. It'd be silly of me to say you should do this when I don't know what's going on in his personal life. So, uh, it's hard because we we both you can say, like he I think, now where we are, you know, and and again it's what's a martial Levens just so people know we're recording this now, and it's well, Amy, whatever the day today is to lose, it's well, so you know, we are where we are. There'll be more that comes out. I always think that we tend to jump to conclusions, and we tend to the court of public opinion is rabid and has has There's a lot of folks that have tried at him prior to his People are asking about a month ago, and he was trying to convicted in the court of public opinion for a long time. Yeah, And so I think people have kind of settled into their side, right, they've settled into not much is going to change. Yeah. I support Adam. I always support Adham. He's great or uh, he's a terrible poacher and he's a liar and he's a he's evil all right, So it seems like people have kind of either settled into one of those camps. Currently with what we know, it's a very confusing situation. You know, here's the guy that pleaded guilty to something but did get convicted. Has to you and I said that he didn't do it. The charges were and he told me that the quote that that the judge saw through the bullshit and that's why there was no conviction hand down. And so there's evidence that to support adams claims of of their beings trumped up charges. Um. And they're being like you said, haters or people that are out to get him for his success in fame. So there is there is that um, but there's you know, there's other sides to it too. So it's like I say, it's a confusing thing. I'll reiterate what you said. I believe this is a good person. Yeah, this is I would go as far as it's it's an outstanding person. This is a person that I admire, um. And I'll say he's an exceptional human and his family is awesome. And the times I've spent with him in the field and some of them you were there for. He's like studious, he's like caring. He uh is safe and and hunts with respect. And it does it means what he says, It says what he means very much in my experience with Adam so and and I think we both call him a friend, so this one incident won't affect my friendship with with Adam. I would I'll tell him, honestly as I'll tell everybody listens to this, if if he did poach from a national park that I soundly reject that idea. And if any of my friends are close family members go poach, they're gonna hear it from me. Hunting is it means? And I told him this too in attack, It's just like it. It feels like this sabotages all the we've done for for me for thirty years. I mean, because it kind of taints it a little bit. Not a little bit, I mean it's I mean, you can just try to justify it all you want and say, well it's it's dear they kill a bunch of them. They haven't even been regulated down there, but it just the optics of it aren't good. And so we've done so much good for hunting, and including him and I hunting together, and it's people have really enjoyed it. And I just you know, it's if it's not true like he says, then um, it just soundens me that a sabotages the good work we've done and just and it makes me really thankful I still have a regal job because I can just be like, you know what, fuck this, I just I love hunting. I just love hunting. I love being in the mounds. This is who I am a bow hunter. I don't need this stuff because it's it's exhausting to me. It is um Yeah, and we said that. We both said that, I think, and I don't want to put words of rumail so correct be if I'm wrong, but I think we both are thinking. You know, the statement that Adam put out there, I think you did post it on Facebook as of today. But the statement he put out there makes a charge that the officials there that were prosecuting him framed him. That's why. Boy, that's heavy. And if it's true, holy like ship, that is a that's a big deal. And I can't imagine being in that situation. And I also can't imagine having to, you know, to put that out there and say, hey, in my case, the Montana Fish and Wildlife Police, the f WP framed me. If it was true, you know, And so I can't imagine being in that situation. And it is that's a salacious thing to put out in the public forum. And so it's gonna you know, people are gonna talk about it because it is interesting and it has a compelling storyline it. So you know, I think morel will probably come out. I hope more will come out. I hope Adam will speak. He has my support as a friend, and he knows that. I hope he knows that. Um. But we just have to see how it plays out. Again. Poaching is wrong. Yeah, it's just wrong, you know. Yeah. I mean there's no there's no argument there. Um. You know, this whole time, when people would ask him about it, I would just be like, he would say, there's a good chance they to be dismissed because it's not true. And so that's all I would say. Anybody would ask, I said, I just hope it gets dismissed. And this is all in the past, and uh, you know that's sort of what happened. That's why I don't know. The timeline is so weird because apparently I haven't really done all the reasons. I just know that like to fall out from it. But apparently he played guilty. But then once once it went there then the judge says, um, I saw through the bullshit and there was nothing to charge him with. So it's just like, I don't know how that works. I don't know how you can be guilty and there's nothing to be charged with. So it's just I mean it. It does it hurt. I mean, it's I mean it hurts me. It does me too, me too. You know, you wish it was cut and dry, you wish it was. I'm innocent and that's it, and it's always gonna be that way, and I'll fight it and I'll fight it to the end, or if it's I am messed up and I'm guilty, Yeah, and I put ow it up to it and we'll move on. As as many people have done in all forms of life. You know, you do that, and every I do that, every damn day. Almost it seems um oh sorry, honey, I just should have said that or shouldn't that or whatever? At work? You do it. You just do it. So you wish it was black and white, but this just doesn't seem like it's black and white. You know, it seems it seems gray. It's it does, and it's just like I can't as you mentioned, it's really easy to judge other people. You know, we've all had failings. Uh, but you know there's people out there on social media who love this. They love this. This really motivates them. Gets some energized to see somebody, whether they screwed up or not, to to be in the news negatively, and it validates what they have been saying if they've been talking shit. And it's, uh, that makes me sick as well. I mean, I'm all about accountability. If I funk up, yeah, that's what I said. Not everybody, anybody that somebody gets convicted of poaching. Again, removing Adam for a second. If if you or I get convicted of poaching, people hate us for that, Yeah, then they're not haters. But if somebody is is pre judging, yeah, that's you're yes, you are sorry and this and now is this those people who were pre judging and haters, now this gives them credibility. I see, I knew this guy was a piece of right. And it's just like that that hurts because that sets us all back. Yeah, it's it's it's hard to know the right path as a community, Like what do you do in this situation where somebody that we've all celebrated and somebody that we think highly of you and I both on a personal and professional level. Uh. It's it's hard to know what you do with that you like, especially when it's a confusing situation. So we'll do what we can do with it and go forward, like you say, Uh, but to continue to openly discuss it because I think that's what we owed our our community and are people that that care what we have to say? Yeah, I mean it's just like I saw somebody put up yesterday and like they tagged me and Joel or whatever, and it's like your silence speaks volumes about Adam. It's like, shut the funk up? Can we just I get it. I get they want people to weigh in, and they really want me or whoever to condemn who's been somebody who's been like a brother. Yeah, and so I'm not excited about that. I'm not. I'm not. That doesn't feel good to me. That doesn't So yeah, if I'm going and dragging my feet a little bit because I don't want to do it, I don't want to. I want to celebrate people. I want people to succeed. I want people to win and I don't this. This hurts me, This hurts me for him, and it just hurts because this, this is what I love. So I'm not gonna go and make jump on and make some big post about slamming. Well. And if I think people just like to watch a squirm, I think so, Yeah, they like, what would they do? Yeah? What would they do? That's what I said to some the other day. I said this this friend of mine, that this is a cool person. Yeah, like if you were in the room with him, he be like, I love that dude, and he's going through a tough thing. Yeah. Like, so I'm not gonna just judge, judge, judge. I don't enjoy that. Now that's something I want to do, you know. Um. And so for somebody to judge me for not jumping in the fray, yeah before it's even settled, get out of here. Likely just leave the conversation. You're not doing anything. They like to say that it's my responsibility as whatever. I mean, like the whole with with the beau Mars, everybody was just like me and shock ease and whatever, when are you gonna address whatever? And you know, finally I did. I. I you know, I said what I thought about the situation with under Armo and the bau Mars. I didn't like it. It sucked. I don't like this. I don't. Yeah, I'm in the industry and whatever that means, but it's hard. I don't like casting negativity on on anyone. I mean, all we could say is we do you know? For me, I hope, you know, we continue to find out more truth, it gained more perspective and find ways to examine what happened and it looks forward because I think Adam remains an important figure for all of us, for me, for you. Um So I hope he sticks around, and I hope he can find a way to get above this and explain it better and get us all in a point where we can move forward. I don't think we're I don't think we're there right now. I don't think we're there, not yet. No, this this is could be a little uh, it's gonna be rough waters for a little while. I think, yeah, yeah, well, I appreciate you being willing to talk about it. I've you know, we both struggled with it. I would struggle with us since the day I heard about it. Um and I actually recorded some things that I deleted them, and I just don't know what to do. You just don't know what to do now, I've been saying to my stomach. When I first heard it was dismissed or whatever it was, I was really I said, I said, I'm relieved. I mean, this was I think I told you, And it was texting like, oh my god, thank god. I'm like, I'm I'm relieved there was nothing to this and because it did and made me sick. Um, and then we find out it's not so cut and dry. So I don't know where we're at with this. Yeah, me either, which we did. Whish we could say that we both know something. You don't know I don't. I think if you've been following the case, we know what you know you know and I could. I probably know less. And I haven't read everything. I haven't read everything on it just because, like I said, I don't want to. I don't. It's hard. It's just like I don't want to read more more of this right now. Yeah. Well, like I said, it's it's we can stumble through trying to explain it, but it's just this is what this is what we can say for now. And uh, we'll continue to follow it because me personally, I care about our community. I want there to be positive messaging at all times. Like you said, I don't want to have to battle this out that the mud like I don't want to, but we will because we have to. We want to know the truth. We want you know, people in our midst that are you know, truthful, and you know we know Adam to be that guy, which is why this is even more frustrating that we don't really know. All science point to that. And I think part of it too, is because you know, this isn't the NBA or the NFL, where you know, people get arrested and do all sorts of crazy things. This is hunting. This is hunting where we're known to be honorable and and so when something like this happens UH or allegedly happens that, you know, that flies in the face of honor. So that's why hunters I get why hunters are so up in arms about it and so dogmatic about it. I get it because honor and respects that's what it's all about. So, UM yeah, we're on a little more a short leash as far as being UH in the industry. Um, that represents that, So I get it. Doesn't mean it doesn't make it easy. No, it's not, dude, we're in your layer. We're in like the is it We've transported from the inside of the house into like your upper hunting layer room. At some point down here below us is going to be a trophy room. Oh, because I'm a trophy hunter. But right now this is just kind of where I want to pick up. We're filming this too, so I'm gonna pick up the cameras so everybody could see what's going down. Yeah, so we could see all the you're troph room on the floor. Yeah. Yeah, we got the wall space cleared out and it's all I'm taking up floor space. All right, We're gonna do it quick, Like this is a segment I'm trying out, trying at all these new segments where trying to make things interesting. So this is called what's in your Pack. It's generally where you just pulls it out of your pack and then you tell me what's what's really going on in there? So this is what it looks like here, right, So this is what I would take on a hunt if I'm traveling out of state and there's just random stuff in here, like if I if I just pull something out, Well, here's some This used to be a full. Oh, now there's one because they're probably in the bottom of this bag. That's we all have that Alan rent set. Hot hands. Hot hands. Yeah, everyone needs those broadheads. There's muzzy cars. That's what's up. Let's see what else we got here, underpants underwhere. I'm assuming clean, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna judge. You know, I don't want to quiver extra quiver. It's like a half of a quiver. Yeah, I always worry about breaking, Like if you break your quiver on a hunt, Yeah, that's you gotta have there. You can't just put arrows in your pocket. So I got I always taking extra quiver parts. Um oh oh what's this mine bullet? Are these vitamins pre workout? Yeah, some kind of a little here's the other part of the quiver, okay, half the quiver? Oh a bear knife. So when I go bear hunting, this is what this would be sticking in the tree that got some fat on it, like a little tallow. This Usually my knives are usually like this until I go hunting again. So yeah, see everybody. You're normal too. I guarantee you still have guts when your knife from the last hunt. Yeah, let's see here, Cam does the same thing. See what else we got? Um chapstick? Yep, yep? Is that lip zips? What kind of chapstick is that? We get a shout out? The shout out to see if we can't get a sponsor, says under arm, under arm chapstick. Yeah, you've gone too far, under armur gone too far. Of course everybody knows that these are wet wipes. The Biday of the Woods, I call it, Yeah, the Bidday of the woods. That's important, that's important. We got These are from John Dudley. These are from Lena I John Dudley dpads. Yeah. And I was crawling around so much, and he had killed like twenty deer already, so I said, hey, car Borrow's nee pads crawled around, killed a couple of bucks. And the thing about one I you'll find is that every damn thing you have from a lot as red from red dirt, right, not like you remember that always it's nothing you can do. I gotta arrange finding yep, Yeah, I gotta know how far things are. And in here we've got some Swarovski's. They've been through a little bit. Yeah, they've seen this are some nice buyos um is the camel back, Oh drinking apparatus? I like it. What else we got? Oh, we got a quivalizer part right here? I guess we've got another spare quiver. You never know. Is this something you can just zip this bag up and be gone if you two quivers and you're really screwed. Um, I feel like something really good is going to come out of eventually. I feel like we got some good stuff. Let's see what this is exactly how I pictured it. It really is working well. Oh, Hostully, I didn't know I had this sponsor alert spot hog keep hammering, keep keep paying with trigger release, probably end up giving that away to somebody. And and oh, this is what we're gonna end with this. We're gonna hemp with this. What is this? This is a whole One of my friends in the Marines gave me this keep hammering k bar. We gonna get a little zoomy that right there with my name on the side, and that's for that's from street fights or bear attacks whatever. This is gonna be my bear hunting knife. I'm gonna look at that. So you got the explain how you do this on the podcast. But this the left arm in the bear's mouth, this under the pit into the heart to do it on you? No, no, no, I'm good, I'm good. Bear attack. Yeah. So we've all seen anchor man bear fight. You know what's up coming? D Yeah. I think that's a good one to end somebody hopefully. Yeah. That thanks James. He gave me this night. That's the first time we've done What's in Your Pack? And that ship was fantastic. Well done. Okay to end this out, like we gotta finish this up. We've talked about some serious stuff. But now your wife was showing me that you guys watch a television program called The Bachelor. Is that true? Okay, hear what you're saying. It's okay? Is this working? Yeah? Yeah it is. This is real. You have to come clean. Bachelor. It's a show that I saw that your wife was watching. She admitted to me, Now, would you watch it every Monday? And then that's just every Monday season finale, which has been like the last three nights. Who you who you're rooting for? I always tell her I'm going to put an application in because I always feel like those guys are kind of like big pussies, and I'm like, they should have a hunter on there. Yeah, they should. I am married, So I don't know if that's gonna screw up the concept of the show. It might throw a wrench in there, but it's TV. They'll fig your something. You a nice twist. Your wife would come in halfway through what the fund camps like, honey, we're making a show. Yeah, what are you doing? I'm gonna be famous? Yeah, so you don't have any like uh the Bachelor's where a dude has lots of ladies. You don't have any like a lady you're rooting for, and this this go around, Um, I don't know. I kind of like this one because the Bachelor at the end he had to switch around on him because normally he picks the ladies. They're all crying because the ones don't get picked. Well the one he wanted to pick. Uh, so he that how it showed in she he's supposed to ask one of them to marry him, like they get married right right, they're like a fantasy serious stuff. Well, he was gonna ask her to marry him. And she I was gonna say she wanted to go home. She wasn't sold on him anymore by and so then he was like, tables are turned. And so then he was like pulling out all the stops trying to he was shaking. He was so upset, and he's like, are you shaking? So I feel like he's sort of lost his man card there on that one. If a dude so upset he's shaking on a show where he could pick from Bassal Bassal of beauties. As I say, yeah, I don't know, it's uh, it sounds like it sounds like a very stressful show. But anyway, that wasn't the season Fallely that he was shaking on. That's what's on right now. T we go. We gotta get our foot jamas. Yeah, makes hot cocoa. Yeah yeah, so that's the next stop. All right, bro, Well, thanks for having me and I can't wait for our slumber party. Try to get you give you gout some social media updates on how it goes down. Yeah, there you go. All right, thanks man, that's it. That's all new format, new episode in the books. Hopefully you guys all enjoyed this new episode. In this new format, new music that was Old Number seven by the Devil Mix three that kicked off the podcast. Um So, thanks to Cameron Haynes for for being a part of it. Thanks to Ryan Callahan for helping us kick it all off and giving us a little insight to his love life. We're gonna keep this format going forward. We're gonna have a bunch of new guests. I'm looking at the list right here and it is impressive. It's inside and outside of the hunting industry. A lot of them it seems like it wasn't intentional, but a lot of them have doctor in front of their names. Um So we're gonna be talking about uh, human animal interaction, We're talking about um veganism, We're going to be talking about ethics around a bunch of things. We have just a huge, huge list of guests and an impressive work that has been done here by internal team to help us line these out and get them all going for our new format of the Hunting Collective. So I hope you keep listening. We're gonna still be around every Tuesday, little new format and some new music, and we're gonna let you and go out with Old Number seven. Jack Daniels, Oh number seven, Tennessee, who whiskey got me drinking in heaven and uh and just stopped to look good to me. They're gonna have to department to the fire. Redeed to the fire, redeed drinking in the fire. Dy Finry d drinking in heaven.

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