00:00:01 Speaker 1: Like Apollo thirteen, Thomas Jefferson's Red River expedition into the West was a failure. This is how their story should have gone. I'm Dan Flores, and this is the American West, the river that flowed from nowhere part one years ago, with dogwoods and red buds firing the first boats of color through the drab late winter woods of Virginia. I stood looking westward across the Blue Ridge Mountains on Thomas Jefferson's of Veranda, atop the small mountain where he built his experimental home, Monticello. I just spent an hour touring the home and domestic world of the American president, whose fascination with what lay towards the sunset brought the American West into the country's future. I'd looked with a kind of numb amazement at the bed Jefferson rolled out of as soon as the morning light was strong enough to see the hands on a clock near a writing table where so many graceful sentences tumbled from his mind. But the thing that had riveted me the most was to find, hanging on the west wall appropriately of Monticello's receiving room, a map of the continent, as cartography had understood it two centuries ago. The two rivers Jefferson regarded as the most intriguing rivers of Western destiny, the Missouri of the north and the Red River of the south, were there their confluences, with the Mississippi fixed on the map by mathematical coordinates. By the time he died in eighteen twenty six, Thomas Jefferson felt he knew the Missouri, its course and its marbles. Lewis and Clark had made the Missouri and the Columbia on the other side of the Rockies live in his mind, but the Red his receiving room map, showed the old French city of Nacotash on the Red true enough. Beyond that, this river, he thought of as next to the Missouri, the most interesting water of the West, angled off on this map into blankness, a runless unknown. That featurelessness hadn't been filled in wasn't from lack of trying. As I described an episode seven of The American West with a script called Jefferson's Southwestern Counterpart. To Lewis and Clark, the President's attempt to explore or the Red River was a fully engaged and valiant one, but like the Apollo thirteen mission's failure to reach the Moon through circumstances beyond its control. Equally valiant Spanish opposition to Jefferson's second major probe into the West brought the Red River Expedition to a halt after it journeyed only six hundred and fifteen miles into the Southwest, disappointingly for Western history, especially given the expedition's rather mysterious destination, plus the quality of an expedition leader like Thomas Freeman, who had the training and ability to have brought that world to life. Jefferson's probe ended short of where the real West began, and especially in doctor Peter Custis, Jefferson's twenty five year old naturalists whose medical degree under famous professors at the University of Pennsylvania made him the first America trained scientists ever appointed to a Western exploring party. The Red River Expedition had included a writer who could have given us an account on a par with Meriwether Lewis's Western Journals. Standing there in Jefferson's receiving room, looking up at that map, he must have experienced some regret about more than once I decided I couldn't resist, I knew well that despite at least two other government attempts to find the sources of the Red River, this was a geographic mystery that wasn't finally resolved until three quarters of a century after Jefferson's attempt. In the eighteen seventies, the same decade that Sir Richard Burton tracked the Nile to its sources in Lake Victoria and Darkest Africa, an Army Corps of topographically engineer's officer named Ernest Ruffner finally figured out the Red River long, one of the great geographical riddles of the West. 00:05:11 Speaker 2: But if the. 00:05:12 Speaker 1: Outcome of Jefferson's Red River expedition had been different, here is what I think is Naturalist doctor Peter Custis would have told the President an American history about a river and a Western setting, whose full exploration might well have. 00:05:31 Speaker 2: Made him famous. 00:05:39 Speaker 1: Peter Custis's Reports on the Upper Red River eighteen oh six eighteen oh seven, Pawnee Villages on the Red River ninety seven degrees thirty seven minutes thirty seconds west of Greenwich, September tenth, eighteen. Dear President Jefferson, obedient to your instructions, Sir, you will have from mister Freeman's hand another description of our ascent of the river to this point, including a fuller account of the diplomatic arrangement entered into by our party and Captain Vianna, who commanded the Spanish force sent out from Texas to arrest our exploration of the river. I will note only mister Freeman's and Captain Sparks's agreement with the Spanish representatives that in our further progress up river, we confine ourselves, sensible to the President's own orders, to an examination of the Red River only and no other major waters flowing from the Mexican Mountains, and per the agreement with Captain Vianna, that we locate our encampments and examine the country only on the north side of the main river until such time as a formal agreement delineating an accepted boundary between the possessions of the King of Spain and those of the United States can be made. Fortunately to this arrangement, thus far in our journey, the country lying to the south of the river has not presented a face materially different from that to the north. Indeed, the most interesting topographical variations we have seen in the extensive meadows that characterize the first thousand miles above the river's mouth have appeared on the north bank, while one division of the Indian village, where we have been encamped since the first instant of the present month, does lie south of the channel. The two larger divisions, including the lodge of Awahkai, the main chief of these peoples, are fixed on the north bank. Our tents, space for which was cleared by the women of these tribes. Contrary to assumption, there are four different, though related peoples in this village, now sit comfortably on a rise of ground well north of the river bed, in part to escape the sandstorms that frequent winds of this region stir up from the channel. Mister Freeman, Captain Sparks, and myself meanwhile were invited into the lodge of the Great Chief, where we want for nothing, agreeably to the orders of the President and mister Dunbar, our advisor in Natches. As with my four previous missives, I've attached a list of species observed, forty one additional botanical observations, and twenty eight new specimens properly dried and packed in a leather cartouche sealed with bear grease for delivery by messenger into mister Dunbar's hands. This accompanies a description of eleven additional trees not found below the place where we treated with the Spaniards. We have surely entered a new and very different country from that of the river below. My measurements, descriptions, and proposed scientific names for several species new to science are also enclosed, although I will take occasion here to mention a few of the more remarkable. From the point where we met the Spanish army to this a distance of three hundred and eighty river miles measured by line, and approximately half that distance in a straight tangent, according to Lieutenant Humphreys' calculations, required a full six weeks travel on the river. While in no wise a challenge approaching that presented by the mazes of the Great Swamp earlier in the summer. 00:09:51 Speaker 2: This part of the Red River affords its. 00:09:53 Speaker 1: Own obstacles to navigation, chiefly in the form of low water at this season of the year. On separate occasions, our party were obliged to encamp for multiple days awaiting thunderstorms, which occurred but infrequently in this country, but fortunately discharge astonishing quantities of precipitation when they do in order to raise the level of the river sufficiently to float our barges. Thus did we proceed to this spot, stopping waiting with appreciated opportunities to hunt and botanize, then hurrying upriver with the Freshess the Indian agent and Knakeolish doctor Sibley was undoubtedly correct when he represented the Pawnee villages as the upper limit of navigation on this river. As to the nature of the country, if the river between the head of the great Raft and the bluff where we encountered the Spaniards appeared to me as the paradise of the world, awaiting only our countrymen to claim its fertility, the country sense has presented equally a garden, but of a very different kind. It is not like anything I have seen before, and indeed unlike the descriptions we had received of it, causing me to wonder if it can properly be described by first hand observers to people who have never seen its analog. Its transformation begins almost immediately beyond the point. 00:11:28 Speaker 2: Where we met the Spanish force. 00:11:30 Speaker 1: The cause of the gradual change from tall woods to vast open meadows is not yet obvious to me, but direct observation seems to refute the notion expressed in the recent literature that the prairies of the interior of Louisiana are the dried beds of ancient lakes. Nor can the soil be faulted for its fertility, for it is so rich, black, and even greasy to the hand that we followed the hunter's custom of calling this region the black prairies. The first evidence for the alteration appeared two days upriver from our encounter with the Spaniards, when with our catto guide's cut finger and grand Oa sages, mister Freeman and I left the boats under command of Captain Sparks, and ascended out of the sandy margins of the river and the cotton tree bottoms to look over the uplands on the right bank. What immediately demanded attention was that the tree growth of the hills, although composed of many of the same species as those downriver, was here sensibly dwarfed in size. Species of oaks, of which there are several, which were sixty feet high in the vicinity of the raft, here at full maturity, possessed a height of no more than thirty five feet. Nor was this a local phenomenon of soil. For the same dwarfing exit extended to many other common species, and was observed across all the face of the country we traversed. Equally worthy of remark the copses of upland meadows we had seen here and there down river, almost exclusively occupied by an orange hued bunch grass growing to knee height here became much extended, so that woods and meadow began to occupy almost the same balance of ground. No doubt linked to these phenomena, the horizon had now become visible in many places at a distance of a mile or more. I thought this inexplicable transformation might correspond to the slowly rising elevation of the country, as measured by our barometer. A few reinforced when, during a delay incasion by low water, the Indians, our interpreter mister Tellpoone and I had the opportunity to ascend the Kyomichi, a north tributary of the Red River, famous among the hunters for its beaver. On that excursion, two days traveled by Piro, brought us to a piny, mountainous country and eventually to a fine, long Mountain valley that in aspect and elevation so closely resembled the Blue Ridge that my eyes filled for home. The mountains here, however, run east and west rather than north south, and under close examination the similarity is only partial, with much difficulty on account of heat and swarming ticks. We ascended the sandstone and slate Ridges, where the barometers showed an elevation of more than twenty four hundred. 00:14:54 Speaker 2: Feet above the sea. 00:14:56 Speaker 1: The view to the north was of immense meadows and set with picturesque peaks, through which flowed a south branch of the Arkansas River. The Keados used the same name for this river and the mountains, Kyo Mitchie. It means horned screamer, and it refers to the cries of the giant woodpeckers, the great ivory bills being particularly numerous here in these mountains, I observed that the vegetation often differed markedly from one side of the ridge to the other. Seeing the heights so thinly clothed with scrubby oaks and specimens of pinus twisted into fantastical shapes, gave me the notion that, as in the Blue Ridge, perhaps it was elevation that was producing the change we were witnessing. In the country above the mouth of the Kyo Michie, we entered a region the hunters called horse prairie, and while cotton trees still flank the margins of the river, we were now in a country where the uplands were composed of prairie almost entire, the only trees away from the river being those found in the declivities of the hills. 00:16:15 Speaker 2: The country also grew choppier, the crest. 00:16:18 Speaker 1: Of the hills from one to three miles apart. The tree the Indians used to make their bows full of large yellow fruit of a pebbly surface is plenty on the margins of these prairies. 00:16:32 Speaker 2: Here I first saw at. 00:16:33 Speaker 1: Great distance a small group of quadruped animals I thought goats escaped from a Spanish settlement, But then they turned from me and escaped across the prairie, where a rapidity only a winged. 00:16:48 Speaker 2: Pagos's goat could have reached. 00:16:50 Speaker 1: This may perhaps be the astonishing creature described by mister Laharp and to me by mister Hendry, with the unlikely ornamentation of a single horn. We sell these animals several more times, always at great distance, rendering me even more anxious to resolve their mystery. In these same prairies, at about west longitude ninety six degrees, we also met with the first of a peculiar species of burrowing squirrels. 00:17:21 Speaker 2: In size, they. 00:17:22 Speaker 1: Are a little different from the fox squirrel, but possess a yellowish coat and are equipped with a very short tail tipped in black, and reside in extensive underground colonies defended by centuries. I give a more precise description of the squirrel elsewhere, along with a proposal for a scientific name from a specimen I prepared of one mister Freeman, collected with an admirable rifle shot. The small owl in my collection is from one of these squirrel towns. For the two species appear to coexist in the squirrel colonies with a species of weasel, a fleet and cunning animal, and possessed of a masked face. I have not yet been able to collect one, but I am certain it is new, as it is not in Linnaeus. The appearance of these vast grassy meadows almost constantly dapple, with the shadows of clouds floating above them and grazing peacefully upon their surfaces. The first small droves of buffaloes and bands of wild horses we had seen produced a strange and unexpected reaction from almost the entire party. We were filled with a sense of euphoria, and had we possessed horses, I've no doubt we would have dashed madly away in pursuit of distant herds. The President may envision something of the appearance of this country from the view he commands to the southeast from his mountain home in Albemarle County, except that no eminence of any height is required for such views. In the country approaching the Pawnee villages on the Red River, such views surround one on every side. A great salvo of thunderstorms played across the arizon west of US as we followed the river through these extensive prairies, which affected a steady rise and muddying in the river's waters, the tents of which fully illustrate its name. Nonetheless, these welcome storms much eased our ascent. By ten August, the Black Prairies began to fall behind us, and we entered a sandier country, thickly overgrown as far as the eye could penetrate, both north and south. Perhaps twenty miles in each direction, with dwarfed oaks of several species, and in some cases so dense with smilax and other underbrush that the woods were impossible to penetrate. This the hunters called the first Crosschimbers, for the Red River is bisected by two such unruly tangles. I suspected that the sandy soil was the cause of this growth, but our French guides, mister Grappi and Talipoon, claimed that these oak corridors were the result of droppings from the wild pigeon flights that were endlessly passing over us at tremendous speeds bound for the south. 00:20:22 Speaker 2: Prairie. 00:20:22 Speaker 1: Openings continued to appear, however, and on several occasions Talipoon returned with the choice because of a buffalo he had killed barely seared over our campfires. This was certainly the most sumptuous meat I've ever tasted. By August nineteen we emerged from the sandy oak country into a prairie more extensive and vast than we have yet seen. The soil calcaous rather than loamy black as below, with white limestone full of shells exposed in the street beds. Indeed, rather than prairie, this country might properly be called, following General Wilkinson's map, the Great Plains, or the Grand Prairie. 00:21:11 Speaker 2: Open and elevated. 00:21:13 Speaker 1: It was exceedingly pleasant and more insect free than any country in my experience. Among numerous species. 00:21:21 Speaker 2: New to me is a gored I collected. 00:21:24 Speaker 1: I found it growing in all the buffalo wallows that indent this plane, so profusely that at the low angles of the sun their craters cast a pox of shadows. Across the smooth grasslands. We found buffaloes and wild horses, and such plenty in this grand prairie that the mind cannot grasp their abundance. So too were white wolves, which we saw in the hundreds every day, trotting along at the heels of the buffaloes, and so tame we began to feel we must have been invisible to them, so numerous in the vicinity of the great raft are no longer found on the Red River where it courses through these prairies. Four days before reaching the Pawnee villages, the vast plains gave way to another broken country, and once again oaks and common cedars overspread the land, but growing in more park black fashion here as if the country were regularly swept by fires, as indeed the hunters and Indian guides assured us. 00:22:29 Speaker 2: It was it was here. 00:22:31 Speaker 1: That I collected the spiny shrub the hunters called mosquite, which grows in the declivities, only never on the uplands, as it appears to be sensitive to the great prairie conflagrations which burn it up. According to Tallapoon, who has traveled extensively in the direction of the Spanish settlements to the south, it becomes more common and grows to a much larger. 00:22:57 Speaker 2: Size farther south eat the bean like seed pods. 00:23:08 Speaker 1: Due to mister Freeman's urgency to reach the Pawnee villages so we might continue on to the Mexican mountains in the vicinity of Santa Fe. Before winter, I did not have sufficient opportunity to study the habits of the buffalo and the wild horses, but knowing the President's keen interest in the latter particularly, I will seek occasion to do so. I do note that bears and lions remain common, that the Virginia deer not being hunted much by the Indians in Buffalo country are as common and tame as barnyard stock round about the Pawnee villages. In addition to the white wolves, which on intimate acquaintance are grizzled gray, and some even of a black color, there is another wolf midway in size between the fox and the white wolf. It is more sharply made than the white wolf, rather more blond and coloring, and very vocal like its ken, but replaces the large wolf's mournful howls with barks and yips of great variety. I am sending along a skin and skull. I have named it Canus Ludovisianus. One final observation about the country bee trees and the honey bee, which the Indians call white man's fly, do not now occur past about ninety seven degrees west, but our Catto guides say they find them farther up river every year. On account of emissaries sent in advance of us by de Heehuit, the great Catto chief, to apprize the Pawnees of our mission, our arrival here was expected and greeted warmly by the Pawnee chief Owaha Kai, whose name means great bear. Mister Freeman will offer the presidential eye a fulsome account of his speech to the assembled Pawnees, informing them they were now children of the U States, expressing our desire for trade relations, distributing gifts from our stores for this purpose, and presenting Owahakai a US flag, which he wrapped around his person then hoisted above his village. After some haggling, he agreed to trade US sufficient horses for twenty four of us to continue our journey up river, for which we embark tomorrow, September eleventh, accompanied by Tallapoon and three Pawnees. Captain Sparks has now appointed Corporals Reid and Osborne, with two more enlisted men to remain at the Pawnee villages to guard one of the flatboats and three p ros our party will use to descend the river when we return from its exploration. The rest of the party, twenty two in number and commanded by Lieutenant Humphreys, will set out downriver tomorrow in the other large flatboat and piros. 00:26:19 Speaker 2: Obedient to the President's instructions. 00:26:22 Speaker 1: In our short stay, I have attempted a Pawnee vocabulary, several words of which appear similar to those of the caddos. A young Pawnee woman she Dee, a remarkable for her address and intelligence, was my principal informant in this and other endeavors. 00:26:40 Speaker 2: Her name is that. 00:26:41 Speaker 1: Of one of the common shrubs in this vast country and means wild sage. The Pawnees, some of whom call themselves Iskanis, others Taioves, others Oahes, and still others Wishatas, are a guiling and handsome people, numbering about four hundred, now greatly reduced by the smallpox. They came to this fine spot on the river within the memories of some of those still living, and say they formerly lived on rivers to the north, including the Arkansas and new white men there many generations ago. Several Spaniards raised from childhood as Indians, reside among them, and on inquiry said they wished no other life. At a distance, their houses resemble those of the Caddos, but are constructed on a different plan and include space inside for their best horses, on account of frequent attacks on their villages by the Osages. Like the Caddoes, their women grow maize, squashes and beans of various sorts, also melons, which they raised in sufficient quantities to store and to trade with the nomadic ait are coumench as some call them, for products of the chase. The Pawnees themselves generally only hunt buffalo extensively in the winter, when they desert their villages for the purpose. They are a generous people in every respect. One example will suffice. The women of the villages were much taken with Samson, my black man. They said they were long familiar with the black white man, as they called him, some of whom had lived with them in the past. They exhorted him, and indeed not him alone, to sport with them and their green corn dance and their gaming, which goes on nearly every night. He did so with such enthusiasm that he caused mister Friedman a certain anxiety. Yet none of their husbands uttered a word of reproach. As I wrote the above, sitting outside my tent with a fine view across the yellow grasslands, which form overlapping horizontal plains into the distance, a Pawnee warrior named Tatasunk, a fair Spaniard captured as a child and raised to adulthood as a Pawnee, says he confirmed to mister Freeman that the Spanish force dispatched from Santa fe under command of a man named Melgaris, is still upon the prairies. He says also that the river we are exploring forks, but while the right fork will take us to rocky mountains, it will not take us near Santa Fe. He says that the left fork is longer, but reaches a place known to Indians and Spaniards as El Jano Estacado. 00:29:47 Speaker 2: He says, this last is a. 00:29:49 Speaker 1: Very dangerous place to the unwary or unlucky, a place, he says, that can confound and confuse your obedience. Servant Peter Custis, January fifteenth, eighteen oh seven, Nakatish doctor Sibley's home, my dear President Jefferson. 00:30:22 Speaker 2: While my letter of appointment instructed me. 00:30:24 Speaker 1: To convey specimens and scientific data to Secretary of Ward, dearborn Sir, and I attend no disrespect to him. I am aware that the contents of my accounts are intended ultimately for the presidential eye, so I will direct my remarks most specifically to your concerns, mister President, so you may understand fully the nature of the country we have explored, as well as the circumstances about the decision for the root mister Freeman concluded, we should follow to perform a correct mapping of the Red River and the bounds of Louisiana. I inquire of your health, sir, as always as well as that of my old friend mister Lewis. Doctor Sibley tells me that his voyage on the Missouri in Columbia has been an entire success, and that he. 00:31:18 Speaker 2: Is the toast of Washington. 00:31:21 Speaker 1: I beseech you, also, sir, to assure my family of my safety. Doctor Sibley has told me of the false accounts of our fate in the New Orleans papers, which I fear may have found their way to Charlottesville. You will learn from mister Freeman's report the chronology of our exploration to the source of the river, his success in delivering your message to the Indians respecting our wish for peace and trade, and the transfer of their allegiance to us. 00:31:54 Speaker 2: Mister Freeman has given me to. 00:31:55 Speaker 1: Understand in very confidential terms, your certain disappointed that the Red River does not access Santa Fe the Mexican Mountains, and the possibilities thereof my account of our journey from the Pawnee villages to the head sources of the Red River with a brief notice of our return to Nacotish follows. We left the Pawnee villages on September the eleventh, eighteen oh six, at daybreak. The parties selected to penetrate to the remotest sources of the river, consisting of twenty three citizens of the United States, my black Man, and three Indian guides. Our cavy, a word the hunters use to refer to a party's drove of horses, consisted of thirty seven riding horses and mules, which were employed to pack our scientific instruments, collections and presents and flags for the tribes of river. We left the scattered oak woods the first day and soon entered a country that for vastness and desolation. I took then to be the equal of any on Earth. Many days at a stretch passed with no precipitation of any sort, and the sky an immense inverted blue. 00:33:20 Speaker 2: Bowl over our heads. 00:33:22 Speaker 1: The sun was harsh, the light exceedingly bright to the eye, and the yellow grasses began to mimic the dwarfing we had early observed in tree growth. I attempted my first images with the camera obscura of this region. They will show the presidential eye a land rolling away like gentle ocean waves in every direction from our tiny party, consistently away from the river. The effect of such travel was to surmount the wave press before us, with the expectation of having achieved an overlook, only to find another higher crest directly ahead. Species new to science in this region included a wild chicken different from the grouse of the Eastern States, and the prairie goat I saw distantly in the prairie short of the Pawnee villages, but did not collect there. I now believed this animal to be an antelope or gazelle, similar to those of Africa, and found in great numbers in a part of Louisiana that resembles Africa south of the Sahara. It is an exceedingly actively made creature, remarkably light or frame, and with bulging eyes, made for seeing across these great distances. Both males and females possessed true horns, not antlers, which they shed. We saw no specimen with the single horn described by our informants, nor do we believe such variation exists. Herds of elk and troves of wild horses also inhabit this wild, desolate country. We saw regularly used Indian trails along the river, but far more common were the paths of the buffalo and wild horses, which so crisscrossed the river's embankments and the sparsely grassed uplands as to give it at first impression that of a thickly settled and inhabited region. On our outward track, however, we saw but few buffalo here, although their droppings and skeletal remains abounded. Four days after leaving the Pawnee villages, we began to see the blue profile of mountains some distance to the north, and on the morning of the sixth day we met with the great forking of the Upper Red In truth, there are three forks altogether, a considerable stream bed with but little water, entering from the southwest, followed ten miles up river by a division in the main stream, the smaller fork flowing a wholesome, clear water down from the mountains now closer in view, whilst the widest of the three beds presented the coiling swipe of a sandy stream disappearing into the plain directly westward. We name these rivers the Dearborn, the Jefferson and the Dunbar in honor of our expedition's sponsors. Mister Freeman's account will explain at length the reasons behind our decision to explore only two of these, the main or Jefferson Fork to its source, while attempting an examination of the Interesting Mountain or Dunbar Fork on our return journey. Mister Freeman had employed the Pawnee Tatasuck as our chief guide into this unknown region, for mister Tellipoon had only vague and second hand knowledge of it. With Tatasuck riding with mister Freeman on our point on the twentieth day of September eighteen oh six, we directed our horses up the Jefferson Fork and proceeded on. This followed one of the great storms we met with in this country, on a day that began entirely clear, but by noon had produced directly before us a columnar cloud climbing ever higher above our heads, which by four PM had spread into the dark shape of a smithy's anvil. Its tumult commenced with bolts of lightning that struck the prairie in plane view and threw geysers of mud and rock and grass. One hundred feet into the air. This was followed by rain and blinding sheets, and was so fury of wind that we were obliged to pull our horses to the ground and lie beside them. Yet this was but prelude to the pummeling we received from stones of hail the size of hen's eggs, which fell about us like artillery. Ultimately, the storm stampeded our cavey, which required most of the day following to gather. Yet within an hour of starting, the storm passed and the sun came out, showing a country glistening white with hailstones. The storms of this country appear fully the equal of the vastness of its scale. We travel for almost a week through this sandy desert, inhabited principally by the burrowing squirrel, and vegetated in place by grown oaks, now reaching only to the height of the knee, also inly by kinds of cactus. Here we encountered the large crested cuckoo, which the Indians call snake bird for its skill and killing rattlesnakes. It secures them behind the head with a rapid dart of the beak and smashes the head on rocks. Till the serpent lies senseless. On the autumnal equinox, a line of mountains rose pretentiously in our path to the west, appearing at first like a low stratum of blue clouds before us. I say line, because from the distance which we thought very near, but that required two long days to cross, a frequent miscalculation in all this upriver region. Owing to the extreme transparency of the atmosphere, these mountains appeared to constitute an almost uniformly horizontal summit, with but few peaks visible, and others of an o block shape. To our discomfort. As we neared this line of mountains, the water in the river, though clear, assumed a taste so salty and so liable to expand in the mouth, that it was with difficulty that we drank of it, and I was kept busy treating the men for the cramping. These indeed may be the salt mountains about which the President has been so curious. We now entered a country much gashed and torn, where the soil was red as blood like the red beds of Georgia, and crystallized spider webs of salt, most often laid in horizontal strata, were exposed in an array of striking patterns in the tributaries. 00:40:47 Speaker 2: Wild horses were here. 00:40:49 Speaker 1: Extremely abundant, and repeatedly we were forced to rout the stallions, which sought to toll away our remounts. Here too, a new kind of deer made its appearance, different from the common deer in several particulars, among them its black tipped tail and mew like ears, but most readily in its gait, hence our name for it hopping deer, as if it presented a kind of general template. There was also a large hair that differed from the familiar kind, not just in size, but in a black tail and remarkably long ears. Tatasuk said there were times when the hares swarmed the entire country, so many they rivaled the buffalo. All the while, the strange mountains loomed before us, assuming forms and shapes such as I have never seen in the art of Rosa or Turner or anyone else. Some agreed that these bizarre and unprecedented forms carved from rock layers of the mountains, the turrets, towers and porticos of castles on the rhine. Others with some familiarity with the Orient thought they must have been built by the same hands that constructed the towers of Constantinople. 00:42:24 Speaker 2: So, Dan, in this episode, you give us a. 00:42:28 Speaker 3: Counterfactual account of the Freeman and Custis Custis expedition, which we talked about in a earlier episode. And I want to begin by just asking you how much of this draws from your imagination and how much of this draws from the evidence? Right, what if you were to sort of go through line by line or page page how much there was there and how much there came from somewhere else. 00:43:07 Speaker 1: Well, you know, like probably I haven't written a lot of fiction. I've written a little bit. Probably like most people who write fiction, historical fiction particularly, you actually do a lot of research. And because I knew this expedition, well, because I wrote the only major book that exists on it, and I read a lot of the accounts that both Thomas Freeman and Peter Custis assembled for the Peace of the River that they actually did yet to explore. One thing I can say is that I think I'm probably pretty close to the tone and the writing style that Peter Custis brought to these submissions that he made to the government and on the expedition before it was stopped by Spain in the summer of eighteen oh six. He submitted four of these reports. And so what I had in mind for the counterfactual version, Okay, I'm going to invent an excuse to allow them to keep going, and so I'm going to let him continue to do exactly the same thing. Custis is going to submit two more major reports about what the river is like as they explore onto the sources of it. And then the other thing I would say, of course, is that many of the people mentioned here, the names of individual people are all directly out of history. In the second part of this, when we get farther west among the Comanches, I used the names of Comanche leaders who existed at the time. And the reason I know all this is because I've done enough research and written sort of all around this kind of story that I knew from the moment I sat down to write this, who the people were who were out there, who Freeman and Custis would be encountering that Pawnee. 00:45:21 Speaker 2: Leader a Waja Kai. He's a real guy. 00:45:24 Speaker 1: The young woman who is going to help him with the Pawnee vocabulary, she's a real person. The guy who the Spanish kid who's raised as an Indian, who guides them further west Tattasuck. He's a real person. These are all people that I know about from having done research about this part of the world. And then I'll add one other thing to this, and this is probably going to be more Germane when we get to the second half of the story of this adventure that I'm sending them on. I spent quite a number of years living in the part of the world where Freemont and Custious are going to end up going, and I wrote two books about that part of the world, one of them which was about all the canyon country that was out there, and almost every one of which I explored on foot and camped out in. And so it's also the story is also informed by the fact that where I have them going, and they are going to be going to the very logical places that they would have gone had they actually continued on. I've been there and hiked and camped and climbed in past years. So it's a pretty well informed counterfactory story. 00:46:45 Speaker 3: Yeah, you didn't take crazy liberties with what happened to them along the way. 00:46:50 Speaker 2: It's sort of a pretty straightforward. 00:46:54 Speaker 3: You know, I was curious because I don't know that we discussed this in the prior episode that covered their expedition. But you obviously wrote a book on Freeman and Custis, but in this episode you're writing from the perspective of Peter Custis, and I wonder how well you know him in that, And I guess to better explain myself. 00:47:24 Speaker 2: So much of what we. 00:47:27 Speaker 3: Think or hear about Lewis and Clark, so much is made of Meriwether Lewis's disposition, yeah, and his personality and how it shapes his writing of the story. And so this doesn't necessarily have much to do with what you wrote here, but I'm very curious to if you can add some texture to Custice, the person whom you're sort of inhabiting in this episode. 00:47:52 Speaker 1: Well, because I wrote the primary book on this expedition, I mean, and it was a story, worry that was almost completely unknown in American history really until I did the first version of it, which I call Jefferson in Southwestern Exploration. I felt a strong obligation to figure out who these people were, and so I did quite a bit of research to try to try to come up with some sense of who Peter Custis was. 00:48:26 Speaker 2: He was the. 00:48:29 Speaker 1: Cousin of George Washington's wife, Martha had married a Custis. Martha Washington had been married before she married George Washington, and she married into the Custis family in Virginia, which was like the Randolphs and the Lee's, and it was one of those big, well keeled, landed families in Virginia, very near Charlottesville, where where Jefferson lived in Albemarle County, the same county, which is why Jefferson knew him. And so he's related to a lot of heavyweight figures in. 00:49:13 Speaker 2: That part of the world. 00:49:15 Speaker 1: And he's a young man who says, and I found a letter in the research I did on him where he says that he wants to use his share of the family inheritance to pay for a liberal arts education at a top American university. And so he goes to the University of Pennsylvania, which at the time, I think you could probably argue that University of Pennsylvania may have been the top university in the country, and it particularly was in terms of natural history because it had a very famous early American natural historian named Benjamin Smith Barton, and that's who Custis went to study with. Now, when you studied natural history in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, what you got a degree in was medicine. You got an MD degree because medicine used botany, what was known as materia medica, in order to cure people. And so Custis went to the University of Pennsylvania studied under Benjamin Smith Barton. I actually am doing research on him. Was able to find another student's lecture notes about the lectures that Benjamin Smith Barton gave to the classes when Peter Custis was taking classes with him, and so I knew that Barton was. He was a promoter of Linnaeus and Linnaean natural history. I mean, he was very up to date on all of his scientific work, and so he prepared Custis, I think really well. Custis got disappointment. He hadn't yet graduated from the University of Pennsylvania with his MD degree. But Jefferson was casting about for a nationalist and he first tried William Bartram, the guy. 00:51:12 Speaker 2: Who had written travels. 00:51:15 Speaker 1: Why don't you take the posts of naturalists on my Red River? Expedition, and William Bartram was sixty six years old, so he said, well, I feel like maybe I shouldn't go, But he recommended a young man named Alexander Wilson, who was, of course Ottobn's predecessor as the first great bird ornithologist. Guy wrote the first big book on American birds. But the problem was Jefferson had already selected Thomas Freeman, who was an Irish immigrant. He was not a native born American, and Alexander Wilson was also an immigrant, he was a Scottish immigrant, and Jefferson didn't want to confront having people say potics of that, Yeah, you're appointing all these guys from some other part of the world to lead this expedition, So instead he picked Peter Custis to do it. And Custis after the expedition, I mean, the expedition actually has in his case a sort of a tragic conclusion because all of his materials are turned over to a guy named Nicholas King, who evidently couldn't read Peter Custis's handwriting. And whenever the publication of the Red River Expedition came out, this Nicholas King guy so mangled Custus's Latin binomials that anybody who would have read those reports would have thought, so, this guy is an idiot. He actually doesn't know Linney in science, and I think in a way that turned Custis away from natural history. 00:52:47 Speaker 2: He moved to New Bern, North Carolina. 00:52:50 Speaker 1: And became a doctor, a kind of a country doctor, and married the daughter of a fellow doctor, and was therefore I mean, he lived to nineteen or to eighteen forty two. He outlived everybody else that was on the expedition, and there are several kind of accounts of people who used him as their doctor, who referred to him as lovable but gruff. But so that's kind of about as much as you can put together about somebody who's alive in. 00:53:27 Speaker 2: The beginning of the eighteen hundreds. 00:53:30 Speaker 1: There's not even a photograph of him, for example, we don't have a photographic image or a painting as exists for Willim Clark and Mary with Lewis, of either one of these guys. 00:53:43 Speaker 3: As I was reading this episode, I thought that maybe one of the parts of this that was most fun for you was describing animals and landscapes in the the mind or in the words of someone who has never seen them before and drawing analogs to the old world or to you know, it's like the famous Prairie wolf of Lewis and Clark, and you got to do that for yourself. 00:54:15 Speaker 2: So I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about that what you did there. 00:54:21 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's one of the fun things about doing this, absolutely is that progression from east to west is something that I grew up doing. Yeah, because growing up in Louisiana and being fascinated with the west. I mean, as soon as I was able to get keys to a car, I was taking off and driving and through all this country and watching these same things, watching all the vegetation gradually dwarf and shrink away, and watching it become possible to. 00:54:55 Speaker 2: See the horizon. 00:54:56 Speaker 1: I mean, in Louisiana you can't see an horizon more than fifty feet away, the trees are so dense. But as you go west, of course, the country opens up more and more, until finally you can see horizons a mile away and eventually twenty miles away, and very rapidly. Not only is the landscape changing, but all the animals are beginning to change. And that has always been something that I've had a lot of fun sort of imagining how people would react to that. And I've known because of the research I've done, I've known pretty much where the first parade dog towns showed up, the first chance you had to see prong horns, where you were going to encounter mule deer for the first time. 00:55:42 Speaker 2: And it's going to be fun. 00:55:44 Speaker 1: I can tell you to carry this on where they're going to end up, because, as I said in the script, one of the fascinating things about this particular river, which Jefferson regarded as as he wrote, next to the Missouri, the most interesting water of the West, is the Red River. And he thought it came out of the so called Mexican Mountains, the southern Rockies, near Santa Fe. And I think the reason he's sending these guys there is because what he's anticipating is what becomes fifteen years later the Santa. 00:56:21 Speaker 2: Fe trade trade route. 00:56:23 Speaker 1: Yeah, the trade route, and so that's why he's so interested in having them go here. But what becomes the big mystery of all of this is that the Red River doesn't head in the mountains near Santa Fe, and nobody could find where the Red River headed for most of the nineteenth century. So what I'm going to have these guys do is they're going to discover a mystery that actually American geographic exploration doesn't find until the eighteen seventies. And it's going to require them to just stick to the course of the river and track it all the way to where it goes. But all of these other expeditions kept saying, well, it must head here, and they would just try to go to some spot and they would find a river, but it would be the Canadian or it would be the Pecos, and it would never be the Red River that Jefferson wanted to explore. So, as I said in the introduction to it, I mean it's the same decade that Sir Richard Burton discovers the sources of the Nile, that we finally figure out where the Red River comes from. 00:57:31 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Dan, looking forward to seeing where you take us next here. 00:57:35 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's gonna be fun, I think in episode two of this 00:57:39 Speaker 2: All right, see it nks Randel