00:00:00 Speaker 1: We all learned a new Lavian word. It's blouch. If the lavine is telling the hunting story and they get to the part where you'd go like, let's say I'm telling the hunt the story, I'm like and he ran out across the field, and now I was going blam blam bam. Lavia would say, I went blouch blouch blouch. Right, honey, with a little bit of k in there. Yanni Van's Walls brother Martin who tell us, is with us, another Lavian speaker, joined by Doug Dern. We'll be Doug. We're in Doug's Hall of trophies right now. Doug, will I go around the room and introducing everybody else. Can you count how many deer are in here? Uh? Brittany Brothers just got her third, second and third White Tales of the season, Helen Chow first white tailed buck ever for her. And then there's a couple of people are just sitting here, Kevin Biermeyer and Jared faint Um. Back to Blouch, say, I met Janice and Martin's father over a year ago, but I visited with him yesterday and he shared a story with me where he was talking about why deer camp is important, and he said that it was helpful, uh to show it was a health of way to to um demonstrate different kind of social relationships and and social interactions to your son, like you bring your son to deer camp and he see e's how people relate and how people have traditions. And as you tell me the story is talking about bringing uh young Yanni to a deer camp where someone had a lot of girly magazines stapled up on the walls alight eight or nine. He said, well, I think he was just trying to clean the story up. So his dad, so you were, you were you can hunt it twelve years at fourteen, So that was my first year with a rifle. And I definitely came a few years prior to you that. So so you were twelve No, I'm saying, I don't know. I don't know. He was between nine and twelve. And his father's telling me this story and he says, of of young Yanni walking into this room. He says, yeah, and let me I think it was a it was a trailer at that time, because it wasn't at the camp that we stay at. We would go and visit the neighbors, you know, see whatever it was up to and the guy but he had a he had a lab in American. What do you call it helen? When it's half Korean half English, can you speak oh conglish. There's there's a lot of like languish language taught going on. But anyway, so this guy had this nickname like they speaking a half lav and half English. Yeah, it's probably more like a were doing that earlier today. It was he yesterday, Harry. Anyways, his nickname was two meals, two meals. Well that's what it was spawned from because he was a big guy and he always eight two meals, and so that was combined and his nickname was two meals. For the longest time, I just thought it was that was his last name. I thought his name was Yannest two meals. I thought that was his last name too, right, But actually no, his last name. That is just a nickname because the dude always eight two meals. Because two meals is a very Latvian sounding name, right, But yeah, what's his last name? Put like the flare on it um in base that want to get back? Sorry, no, go ahead, okay, so nickname, No, it is a cool nickname. But now you guys are arguing over what his real name was. No, I was just just telling me anyway. So Yanni's dad's nostalgic, and he says, it's talking about Yanni deer Camp and he's explaining Yanni walking into this house with all the girly magazines on the wall, and he goes, I can't remember exactly. He says, uh, this was the first time in Yanni's life when he had so much pussy laid out before him, and there's a picture of him right over his head. I love your dad, and your dad's great. I was just slightly disappointed he didn't have an accent, but that's my only I didn't think he had an accent. I thought he would have an accent, an accent. He doesn't have an accent, but he loves to do Like at Yanni's wedding, he comes out and gives his speech as if he's shows up, and he goes, I can't really do it real well, but he's like, hello, how everybody doing tonight? My English not very good. He had a bunch of southerns going because they really thought he maybe didn't he was just off the boat. YEA, yeah, Well, I think we talked about the last time, last time, do you count off the buck racks in here? Uh, he's too busy taking his selfies over there. Good many Helen, can you count the buck racks? So last time we were in, last time we recorded and here we were talking about the buck racks in here. Um, last time we here, we're talking about the proximity the Lavian area, the Lavian hunting camp area, two dugs place, and we're just here for to to participate in and and and celebrate the opening day of Wisconsin's Firearm to Your season. And Yanni's dad was at with some Latvians eating Lavian rye bread with liver worst on it and eating um pet dogs pete doggins say that ducks ducks And uh, he dropped by to see us. But we did three days of full balls with scanny white tail hunting opening day. You guys had Helen in Britain. You had never participated in this sort of thing. The two when people when it comes to the opening day traditions, people bring up people say two things. They say that it feels like Christmas and it feels like a war zone. Yes, it feels like Christmas. Sounds like a war zone. What was your guys, like, what was your impression? I mean, can you gotta get like what the whole opening day deals about? Oh, without a doubt. I mean there was a big hullabaloo about it the night before. You know, everybody comes into deer camp, everyone's got their bots and then yeah, I mean we got there and even before shooting light we heard doesn't stop him, right. Some of them they anticipation. There's some you know, the Christmas analogy. There's some guys that always peak, always like to get on the middle of night and peak. There was a guy. There was a guy, well one he was What was unique about the guy that shot very early? He was a one shot guy. Most Wisconsin nights like to clear their magazine before they register about whether any of the hits might have hit, because there's no way that you could be shooting in red and mentally registering the results of the shot as fast as what you hear some shooting around here. I wish you could see I think it would you possibly know if any of those shots. I think what you're failing to recognize is it's possibly two or three guys standing together that could be I had yeah, because I had a conversation with a with a I'm not gonna name his name, um, but a man I've come to love over the years who just stopped by because people stopped by a lot during the opening days of deer season. He stopped by, and he was saying that the one good, uh, the one nice buck they saw it wasn't big enough to quote get us out of the truck, which would imply if they jumped out, there could have been some bou without anyone register what was going on. I'm joking, of course, but it's a it's an enormous amount of shooting. I think Dirk and did. Didn't Dirkin once calculate or he at least publish this it on open day? Right? A deer second deer second Wisconsin? That article, Yeah, a second deer per second in Wisconsin is the title of that article. There's hundreds of thousands of deer. How many seconds are in? How many seconds are in a day? Because you always on your your eyes doing a little chores on your phone. I guess somebody doing that for me over here? Now? No, and didn't who was it you that brought it up? That's the third standing army that is such a bullshit. It's been going on every year. This is the third large largest army in the world. A lot of Wisconsin. There's a deer second. Yeah, no, I'm no, because here's the thing, the whole thing like that Wisconsin has the largest standing it's like, define a standing army. This is not a standing army. It's the third largest. That particularly on that particular day's third largest army of people seated on buckets and I could possibly rise up in arms and then it's always and nobody got hurt. Well, somebody always gets hurt. I'm guessing that guy that early shot. I always wonder how does that happen. It's got to be somebody loading a rifle. That's well, that's what we thought to accident discharge in the morning. You thought it was accidental discharge. Yeah, because it was dark. It was twenty minutes before shooting light. I mean, but I think the statute, I hope the Statute of Limitations is a run out on this because I'm gonna tell, like in like in Michigan opening Day. So you guys, Wisconsin does a wacky words. You know, you can't tell what it's gonna happen. Third Saturday, in November. Yeah, they confuse it. In Michigan. It's just like the same date every year, which is ridiculous. Third Saturday means third Saturday, which is always the Saturday before Thanksgiving. You always know when dear season is, I mean the real dear season. I mean that bow hunting thing. Yeah, so in Michigan it's not like that. So so out of every seven opening days, five of them requires you to get out of something. You know. And when I was in college, I went briefly to Lake Speare State and in university and this guy had Did I ever tell the story? I think I was talking about this this guy, this professor had this thing you can if you miss certain number of days, you could never get higher than that. Did I tell you this story? I've pretty much heard all your stories, I think, But tell it anyway. It's just killing me that I can't think if I told us or not. Does this ring a bell? The class I'm talking about, you haven't told it on the podcast. I've heard it before in the thousand times in a blind but not. Okay, So I'll tell So it's a great story. This guy, this professor had this rule that once you miss a certain number classes. You couldn't get anything better than to see, no matter how good you did. And it was a speak it was a class. It was like a speaking class. And um, and I missed all my days and then opening day comes up, and like if I go deer hunting an opening day, I can't get any better to see. And I was like, I'm not gonna let this man steal this from me, this opening day situation. So we drove I it was a morning classes at eight am. Class drove down to hunt and we're hunting on a guy, UM name Herb Scales place and he'd gotten in some trouble with some messing up of wetlands at the time, so we called him her Beside Scales. But he we went up to hunt his place and it was kind of getting light out, not really by the time. I didn't really know about really the what time. I just knew this opening day and you didn't. You're not looking at your watch, you're looking at that whether you can see that. A deer runs out in front of me and stops like aware of me in the darkness, and it was so dark. I remember that I got down with my cheeks like the ground in order to skylight the deer's head, and I could skylight the deer and see that it was that it had antlers. Then I found its white throat patch and my scope, but it was so dark I couldn't see the crosshairs, and I just imagined centering the throat patch in the center of my scope and blouch. Yeah. I was early for class that day. Huh. I didn't even gut it. I drug it out of the trail where I knew my brother would hit it on his way out of his blind and boogie it off and made it the class into date that class. I'll say this, this will date me and date the class. We we had to do. One of our speeches we had to give to the class was, uh speech we try to convince someone of something, And there was a dude doing a thing. He was arguing that you should not be buying tapes anymore. You should start buying c D s. Yeah, he was like, man, tapes are done, dude. C D S is where it's at. The lasts longer, bouch. So opening day, you get up and it's gonna be the day if you like, If you don't get a deer on every day your chances of getting a deer go down. I remember in mission needs to say if he didn't kill deer an open day, your odds of getting a deer that deer season were reduced by we saw an open day three deer. You know what I mean. That was sitting. Dawn told us, so you're sitting in the woods from legal hour, but we were there our four legal shooting light. Right, So we're there at five thirty UM and we sat till legal last legal shooting light ended it like five oh four. Yep, we're there all day, did all day the next day, did the whole thing all over again. So twelve hours in the blind, not quite eleven hours, eleven and a half hours in the blind, back again, eleven and a half hours in the blind. The second day of the season, we saw two. We're hunting a spot called First Ravine. I thought of a great book would be from twenty two to two, the untold story of First Ravine. And then the third day I think we didn't see shit. Oh we saw that button buck that four key ran through work, he ran through and came over to me, then through and then day I saw you push those two but that was doing it that was doing a drive, doing a mooch drive. So open day really like it, just if you haven't ever experienced anything like And just imagine that the woods is quiet sixty essentially three sixty four days out of the ear. And then there's this day when all of a sudden, you got what's half a million people in this stay have a hunting license. Over half a million people in this stay have a hunting license. And then on that opening day around the stay over like a deer second get shot. It has a profound impact on dear behavior. They just run. Every dug's over here, looked like he's in pain hearing that. But before we get dogs your bottle, let's take a quick moment to get a word from our sponsors. Our sponsor today is UH Smart Home Security Leaders Scout Alarm. It's this sleek little contraption self installed home security system for the modern renter homeowner. And the way it set up like it's it's not that you have to have some technicians come in for three days and why are the house um, there's no long term contract, there's no credit check this month a month, it's hassle free. Install it yourself takes minutes and you can control it anytime, anywhere. So if you got an Apple phone, Android phone, a smart watch, you use Scouts apps, you can monitor who's coming and going from your house. Um, you can see it in real time. I could see the man. You can really keep an eye on people in your home. I shouldn't even bring that up because it's just downright dirty, but you could. Um. 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So e A T M E A T one five eat meat fifteen. You get off a purchase when you make a minimum purchase of three bucks for the devices on scout alarm dot com. It's sleek, it's smart, it's secure. Scout alarm dot com and the promo code eat meat fifteen. Rig your house up so you know what's up, all right? So, Doug, when I when I was like, like, I feel that I I feel dog that you that that you don't like how um explaining open day, and but but I love opening Day. I grew up doing Opening Day. I've come to you twice to participate in your opening Day. Yet what I'm saying somehow seems to contradict some of your impressions. Well, he talked about well, obviously I can't disagree with a deer a second. I was thinking about your comments about um ther their dear behavior changes and all that, and the shooting begins, So you go from this calmness to the shooting. But there's a lot of shooting around here for two weeks before opening day. I mean every weekend you hear people, Yeah, a lot of bouch bouch. You know, it's not going on out there. And uh so it's probably the combination of people in the woods, the shooting and then the gut piles that freaks the deer out, which is kind of what you were getting at. Everything changed. It's it's so dramatic how it changes from opening day. The deer activity or the deer sightings changed from opening day to the second day. And m there have been plenty of times where I saw as many many deer on the second day as I did on the first day. But those are doing their dear thing on this farm. Yeah, like out feeding in the morning. You're in don't feed nine ten the well, talking in the woods, they don't. Oh well, okay, I'm sorry. Monday, Well, it wasn't nine ten in the morning, it was eight nine in the morning. Those deer were feeding through everything that rich pounder and I saw up there on the pale stand was just going through doing its dear thing. And that was Monday. So are you you feel that it doesn't the open day does not have a profound impact on the way the dear act. No, I was just challenged about apparently having a look on my face that was um painful, though clearly it does. Clearly it does. I guess what I was going to say was it made it? You know, feels like Christmas sounds like a war zone, and it's just doesn't. It's not as war zone, you know. It's it's there isn't as much shooting as there used to be. There's not as much of that. Do your activity, you know, deer running in as there used to be. Um, the hunting pressure isn't the same, feel, it's less hunting pressure these parts. Yeah, I really do. What do you attribute that too? I think that uh uh gun hunting used to be a lot more moving deer pretty much right away. Now it's very much a challenge of sitting. Uh. People are afraid to push dear off their property, and I'm guilty of it too, you know, fraids the wrong word, but are reluctant to get up and move around and push dear off their property. Um, because the neighbor is gonna shoot it. And you know that sort of thing. Yeah, I want to let me just interject on that thought from it. In this area, it's all hunnible ground. I mean, it's just like this is like dear country. Yeah, houses are very scattered apart. The ones that are there are the houses. I mean, there's a small community near here, but the houses are very scattered apart. The ones that are are not like those overly manicured places people kind of have. It's like a country setting. Agricultural wood lots butt up against everything. All the houses around here. You could pretty much have probably a great hunt by just opening the window and looking out your window. I mean, it's like deer country, right. And the plate the plots are people probably own anywhere from forty acres two acres. There are people more than that, and most of the ground is probably in some way or another getting hunted. I don't know about that. I guess that's a part of what I'm saying. And I don't we're talking about earlier. You and I were talking about trying to speak to the neighbors and get a group together, and and um and that sort of thing. I really should take. I have a map of the township and every forty or every eighty or every you know, ownership is on that and just start really looking, Okay, well, who's hunting there? Is there someone hunting there? Um? Is there not something to they allow hunting there because they're one of the complaints you hear often about um private land and things like managed forest law and the other programs as well. People don't the public isn't allowed access to that land, and so nobody's in there moving the deer. And I think that's probably true because deer aren't going to come out of a place. They may go into a place where they're not bothered, and they're not gonna come out of there if they're not bothered for a day or two, and then there behavior has changed. And back when I was a kid um and started hunting, as we talked about over forty years ago, Um, we hunted kind of wherever we wanted to, and I mean with no thought to who owned what. Yeah, I remember seeing the first no trespassing signs in the response was a sign that said, if you're land is posted, stay the hell off of mine. Yeah, when I was a kid in my day, he's just going tear no trespassing signs now. He learned it from a guy named Eugene Grotors. Yeah, and you thought it was ugly someone who put one up and they just go and take them all down. I thought it was just like it spoiled everything to see all those signs everywhere. That's what they thought, well, and I don't disagree with that, but visually they didn't like it. I thought it was tacky. Right. Laws and Wisconsin are now that if you don't have permission, you're trespassing. It used to be if it's not posted, you can go on it. So a lot of Western states you still like that landor's obligation to post his land, which I think is uh. I think that the way the law is now, at least in Wisconsin, is the correct way to do it. If you don't have permission beyond or, you're trespassing. So what was the point of that um In there's places you think the deer get piled up on where they're not getting bumped off, and people are reluctant to push deer around because they think you're going to go onto their property and they don't want to push them out. Yeah, so someone else shooting at them and the idea of the mooch is a little has a little bit of that in it, that we're not trying to run deer out, we're just trying to bump them. Or you're as a still hunter as the moocher. You're, um, hopefully, if you're good at it, you're as apt to be able to get a shot at a deer as someone who's sitting in one of the places that were you know where we're trying to ambush the deer, but we're really not trying to just run them out, you know, like surrounding forty and run them all out of there. Um. So, yeah, what ducks tap about? When you go to hunt deer in the Midwest, you it typically happens two ways. You ambush them, so you sit somewhere away for the year to come to you, or you drive them. And the way you do drives generally is get a handful of dudes that go to a spot where the most likely route of travel to be taken by a fleeing deer. Then you get a handful of other dudes to go in there and line up and push them out. So it's like when you imagine the Revolutionary War, like everybody lined up, you know, like the red coats are coming all lined up. You line up like that and march into a chunk of deer cover and bust them out. And they go heading out that way, and the interceptors try to get him. So you got pushers and standards, dog and his crew out here. They have a thing called which they have come to call mooching. What mooching means if both sportsmen, if you ask them what the mooch was. It's a way to catch salmon where you run your mainline down to a bananimate then off that bannily. Wait, you got a leader in a couple of octopus hooks and you cut a harring's head off in such a way that you can put it on there in a herring spins and your mooch and salmon. But explain what you guys say a mooches. Well, so everybody goes out in the morning to their pre chosen or pre exciting stands. Ambush spots, ambush spots. Can you name a bunch of ambush spots? Uh? Sure, New Power? Uh? Uh? Two man stand that's there's a boring one. Dad's woods. Uh. We were we were on Brittany and I were at uh matt stand. Um, there's the Ranella ravine shot on a stick, ship on a stick. Did you hear that Ranella ravine he got renee aimed on the podcast? It's the first Well the dump uh fool on the hill. Isn't there a standard? New standard standard? New standard? That the thing is is that the standard stand. It wasn't really a stand. It was just something that I put up in a elm tree near a betting area where I had seen this deer and uh, I just strapped a ladder to it, or I'm sorry, it's the ladder stick to that elm tree and then kind of got a hangar stuck up in there. And it was about I don't know, fourteen inch diameter elm tree that two hundred seventy pound dude probably shouldn't have been crawling up into, but I was gonna kill that deer, and uh, I crawled up in there and I sat it in the stand long enough to kill that deer and never used it again. So new standards just a better place to sit that spot. Yeah, well, and a better stand, you know on the tree that I uh shot hit that deer out of. Uh. It was an elm, a white elm tree that has since died and actually found real mushroom sounder a couple of for a couple of years in a row. Congratulations. Yeah, well it's you know, it's a tree that keeps on giving. And uh so yeah, standard news Standard the rock, the rock, and that one's name because there's a big rock there. I just know you wouldn't get that connection otherwise, so all right, so yeah, that's what it's a jump in there. So the mooch. Everybody goes out to their stand. So picture, we're on a We're on a chunk of ground, a sizeable chunk of ground. Hunters acre is a ground mixed woodland farmland. These stands are all over the place, covering areas and it depends on how many people you have UM. But the idea is that one person is designated to start the mooch at the assigned time in the morning, and especially with the people who hunted here before, and you know, our our core group, there's you know, four or five of us that I know it really well and they so the moocher starts moving, still hunting very slowly through UM gets to a designated spot. Another stand gets in that stand and the next guy starts to move. If it nothing's happened. But the idea is that you'll bump a deer and it may go past everybody else or or someone else, and if it doesn't, it may do something as simple as turn around and go back and lie down. Um. My, my brother's here, Uh was in uh the bent oak stand one time, and I went mooching up near him near the ravine and and he watched, Dear, I didn't see a little forky buck get up, move away from me, turn around like a rabbit, swing all the way back around me. I was going slow enough that it wasn't excited. Its circled back around and laid back down pretty much in the same spot after I had passed. So that idea that you know, you're not getting the deer all excited, and it's more or less natural movement. Um. And we really like that part of it. And then there is the element you're not running it out, you know, somewhere else, and when you're trying to do some buck management, and you know, maybe some folks around you aren't. Uh, you know, I feel like that's a way of keeping deer on your place. Um. But it's also way of moving them and kind of seeing what you you have and getting some good hunting opportunities, because you know, I'm not a big fan of shooting at a running deer, a walking deer, or you know, quickly moving deer, but you know, where's a deer drive. When you push them out, they come up carrying the mail we like to call it. Yeah, on a mooch, you do get a chance like the bump deer off and when you're in the standing spot, the bump deer. By the time they get to you are pretty chilled out. Yeah, they're kind of like watching their back trail a little bit, but they're down to a normal that's exactly right, normal plug yep, you know, as opposed to a drive where there haul and asked to the next big patch of woods or or you know, they'll blow across the field and keep right on going. Although today, um, I went out to try to move a few deer for folks, and uh, Helen and John were in a blind and I knew they were deer around there to chow and and uh and Cho's boyfriend John's here. Yeah, and uh, they needed another deer because they didn't have enough to Butcher. Apparently they thought they had a lot of time on their hands. It's something for butcher. And uh so I went out and took a walk, and uh I moved pretty quickly, and the deer moved really quickly. When they came out, I mean they stopped. They were standing in the woods looking at me, and then I moved to try to get them to go past Helen and they carried the mail across that field. There was no stop in them. You never you couldn't get a crack out of him. They were running like hell, just like what happened up there? You try to stop. Yeah, we're like, oh you're classic y not having it? What's your like? Getting hell? And give me your just give me your whole. Like let's say you went home and do you have a grandma. Let's see your grandma said, what were you doing in Wisconsin? What's up with that? What would you say? Like, how would you explain? Like what are your impressions about opening day? Deer hunting and all that? Like everything you've seen here, seen and done here Christmas or war? The morning sounds like a war zone, I mean just NonStop gun shots. Then the second day was just completely quiet. You know, many gun shots I heard this morning from I heard one prior to eight am. Then I heard some cracking because my thing was cracking away twice. Yeah, but I think by eight am I heard a shot. Yeah, but there was the guy I thought you shot, because there was the guys that shot by you. That was the dude that was sitting by me on the other side of the fence. Well, the first day I was like, Wow, this is intense or everywhere, and then the second day I was like, oh, this is what deer hunting was. Actually, like the cold you found did did plenty of opportunities in an opening day. I just couldn't pull together but not but but not relaxed deer. The Bucky got was feeding the Bucky got was not like he was feeding deer. No, he had no idea. But we had dear five the through and you're trying to just talk about that, like what the challenges I don't know. It was just there's so many deer. But it was frustrating because you couldn't get you couldn't get set up quick enough, or at least I couldn't get set up quick enough to find a window. I mean, it was Trino that it was pretty thick with brush and so you'd have to you know, literally be moving in your blind um and then you know, quickly finding your scope the one window between trees that you might be able to get a shot, and then by that point they're already moving. So it was just frustrating. Yeah, exciting because you're constantly seeing deer so even though you're cold, you know, but it was, yeah, very frustrating. Is this something you'd go do more of? Yeah, for sure, because you guys experienced, I mean your experience is from big game hunting. You went on elk hunt like full balls, But yeah, it was just they're both challenging in very different ways. Like el elk hunting is very challenging, but I mean in the way that it's very physically demanding and you're constantly searching and walking and I mean there's some sitting too, but I feel like there's a lot more moving, whereas this kind of hunting you're sitting in a blind for ten eleven hours, being cold as hell, and then you know having quickly holdings together. So I don't know, there are parts of like after having got on the elk hunt, parts of this where you would see deer runoff out of your shooting range and the like you just wanted to go after them, Yeah, thinking that you could. Yeah. Yeah, Like well as soon as we left are blind deer came out everywhere, and that felt like a little bit like the elk hunt. Yeah, so Helen like talk about get talking about getting your like, tell what happened there? I don't know, I blocked out. I'm kidding. I'm like actually really like grateful that we have this on camera because sometimes I'm like, what happened that day? It all blends together. Um. I was sitting on the right side, you were sitting on the left side, and your stump, and we kept seeing deer on the left side. Right. So every time you see a deer and be like, okay, quickly switch spaces with me. And the concept of having to move quickly but having to do it slowly so the deer can see you, it was like very frustrating. Yeah, it's a certain kind of quicktion. Um, And yeah, I just I don't know that. Well, there are two other was there two doughs behind it and the dougs oak trees killing killing dogs, red oaks? No, I mean it was it was like the perfect shot, and I didn't want to take a shot that wasn't for me as someone who doesn't have much experience hunting. I felt like I needed a shot that was broadside. Yeah, I want to point out that need you guys gave a ship if you got a buck or dough hell have been trying like hell to shoot the does that were rolling through, but they were all kind of in a hurry and just had you gotta buck just because that had to be the first. Yeah. I mean that thing was nice shot, just feet and chilled out. It was perfect. So there were two bucks. This is the first time I've heard this part of the Yeah, what was the other buck? Like the same looked just like his buddy. The other bucket I had in the camera lens. And when Joe shoots hurt buck, the other one goes huh and then it keeps right on eating, right, he goes right on eating those He kind of hopped a little bit, said they just apparely. He lifted his head and was like h And I was like, yeah, okay, okay, I'm good. They had it was a button. It was three bucks. It was in two bucks that were twins. No, not twins just so I don't want to get out of the blind right away. No, I was like, he's not going anywhere. Um, he just ran aways and got woozy and tipped over in a ve thought I missed him. Remember, I looked over, like did I miss I was? She said? I think I missed him. I was like, if you missed him, he's gonna have to visit a cardio because there's blood streaming out of him. Um, he um piled up. And I don't want to go down the right wicks. I wanted it because there's so much happening that's just like just dear every which way, and I don't want to go down there and blow it. So we sat a long while and eventually, I mean's just like it was just horribly cold and finally got calm, and we start picking our way down to that damn deer and just freaking deer everywhere. We shouldn't left the blind man. We shouldn't left the blund You WoT this deer like across the field, biggest buck I saw, the old trip comes down across the thing. I don't want dog to get mad at me, So I mean, I could have taken a hail Mary out of that best. But we saw five deer when we moved. But wait, you said to me that you just passed on a passed the shooting opportunity on the top roebuck. No, I said, an almost top rollbuck, almost top roebuck. I'll pull down, Okay, I had passed made song like, hey there he was, Well he's not quite he was there. The deer was probably about a hundred and seventy yards away. I had arrest. He was in my crosshairs. He was between two trees with a big gap exposing his rib cage, his head sticking out the other side of the tree. I'm not gonna tell you that. Like absolutely he was standing there for an hour feeding twenty yards away on public land. I would have touched off a shot at that bar. Uh. Well, and you had a better shot. We saw that same deer. That's that was an accurate And well, how can you not say anything? What do this? What do you what do you want me to say about it? That's what happened. Yeah, he was there not I mean, just like the whole general subject. But you give me an the impression that it was really fast, Like so now I get I get it now, I get it now. Okay, you had a better shot at that deer than I did. I saw him. I had a legitimate shot at the day, and I asked you. I asked you afterwards. I was like, did you have a shot? Did you have a shot? And you said yeah, But you thought Doug would be mad at you, so you didn't take it. You didn't think it was quite really tired of him playing that car that Doug will be mad at the first time I ever came to this farm. No, I've been in this farm seventies. Good. Okay, I've been in this farm seven times. Yeah, it's good. He didn't take that shot the first time farm. Okay. In this room where the buck racks are hanging, these bucks are all off this property, is that right? Yeah? Okay, these bucks are off anymore during the same time period. But yeah, and it's some guys buddies will come and shoot a buck, but then they want to take the thing home with him. So then dog just has a put a little photograph on the wall. Which, really, if I kill a buck here, m worthy of the room. It's gonna live in the room. I'm not gonna take it home with me. But some guys will take it home and then you're here. Now you've got some pictures of bucks that aren't they belong here, that aren't even in here. Those two nailed to that tree there. I gather they're from here. They took him home with him. Yeah, so, yeah, I came here. I couldn't blame him for that. No, no no, I'm not blaming hi. I'm just saying the one of the one of the walls here has uh like thirteen buck racks on it, and there's what's called top rollbucks. So the not the bigger bucks are along the top row and he's got them all done. Were you in the old way? We used to cut a board a plaque out kind of half acidly shaped like an Indian arrowhead. Maybe is that was supposed to resemble. I just think those are different shapes. They're all the different, but they're kind of supposed to resemble an Indian narrowhead. Like the old way. You think it's a shield whatever the hell plaque, but but it's not a random shape. The amount of plaques and you do velvet or a skull cap. And I came here many many years ago, and Doug said, if you shoot a buck here, it should knock one of the bucks on the top row out, up shelf baby, top shelf buck. Yeah, and it just seems like the well, I don't want to get into my disappointment the last time that's happened that somebody's knocked one off the top last year. Last year I shot that, dear. So it's just it's just a way where um, it's a way to encourage it's it's a friendly way to encourage people to harvest dose and to encourage people to allow younger bucks to ask and let him grow bigger, having some kind of guideline. And because you're responding to the way you used to be in the old days right right that you. Yeah, as I was telling Helen and Brittany, I couldn't have been prouder in the first buck that I shot, and it had one horn or one antler, you know. And uh, we had one of our guys this weekend shooting with one antler. I'm not going to say his name. We found a dead one with one an We found a dead one with one antler up in the up in the up in the big woods by one of the stands. It's called the wet spot, and if Steve ever opens a bar, that's what I'm gonna name it. But that's a whole interesting story about the dead deer. But go on with what you're gonna say, uh and uh. What What this requ wres is to take enough time to look at a buck and these and say yeah, or that it was a good hunt or you know whatever. But you need to take that time and be willing that I didn't. I didn't have enough time, so he got a pass opening day. I didn't. We saw that same buck, and I didn't get a real good look at him. I think it was the same buck by the way we described him, the one that you saw. And I didn't get a real good look at him. But I could have thrown a shot at him. I mean I had a shot at him. I didn't have as good a shot as it sounds like that you did. Um. But I think I've said before that I'm never not taking a shot that I regretted. If I you know that sounds well, I've taken shots that I've regretted but I wish I wouldn't have taken. But I've never said no, I'm not going to take that shot. And then regretted it later. Really, yeah, I have that problem. Why didn't I take that shot? You never looked bad and go I should just taking the damn shot. No, I should have maybe taken a better shot. But speak to the to just try to quickly speak to what you're saying about the management, because because because you were saying a minute ago that that I keep saying that I didn't do X, Y or Z, because I've been trying to do some of the some of that. I've been trying to play along with some of the guidelines that you have on your property to try to encourage you. And I've been just really uh impressed this too strong word, but really happy with the fact that you have done that. Like not shooting the button bucks, Well, that's even even more impressive. I mean that is impressive. That's and the time to be able to look at him and go, okay, I mean you see a small deer you're looking at uh, you know, a small deer. A small buck looks different. Another button buck looks different than a doe fawn. Um Martin did the same thing today. He said, can I you know, should I shoot a fawn? And I said, is it a doll? And he goes yes, I said, yes, I should have said both of them and we would have. We still hurt. But the first of all, just as it was just a miss. But uh to take that time and go, okay, that's a small deer. I'm gonna make sure it's not a button buck um and I'm not convinced that. Uh well, anyway, I'm impressed by that, and the fact that, uh, you know, you you have the patients, you're you're taking the time, and you have the patients to do that. It probably helps to be hunt, you know, getting the opportunity to um hunting as many places that you do. Uh. So sometimes I try to cut some of my guys a little slack when I think about this is this is their hunt, this is it, you know. But now the other day I was commenting, we're kind of laughing about Dougs, the way that Doug wants to manage deer on his place and the things that prevent him from carrying that out and all the ways he'd like to. And I was saying, how some people have you know that like cartoon image of a person with a devil and an angel on their shoulders and like in their whispering these contradictory things and now saying that dog like essentially has two angels on his shoulders because one of the angels wants him to manage deer for like a good buck, to do ratio and allowing some bucks to get to you know, maturity and to grow big, healthy deer, and the other angels saying you should just let your friends have a good time. Man, just let him get it here. Yeah, and Doug granted that two. I've taken four friends here um for hunts, and each one of them they were all beginning beginner hunters, and each one of them got like any deer you are happy with, go ahead. And and they're not the only ones who have been other you know, first time hunters. Uh my nephew Jack here, you know, first time hunter happened to kill a very nice uh buck with it for his first year, My nephew, uh Sam, his first year here was a little spike. His second year was that big old hog in the corner over there. But I mean, so it's pretty big jump up. But uh so, yeah, I mean it's not I shouldn't make it just about the horns. And I've had some discussions really recently with my neighbor. I don't think you make it just about the horns well, because like I think, the longer you're here, the longer I know you, or the longer you're involved with the program, the more it becomes about it and and and maybe it should or that I think that you ought to have a little more discretion the longer that you you know that you longer you've been here. But you know, everybody makes a mistake, but you know you kind of go, really, you made that mistake. Um, you know there was a mistake made on Saturday that I'm still not buying, you know. So he knows who he is. Um, uh no, he's not here, but he'll be listening to this. He sent me a picture of himself with the sombrero. Today we're in the sombrero because nobody put it on him and made him take pictures. So you think he was, you know, wanting to So you know, I did wear the sombrero and here's the picture. And my response to him in the text message was that should be your screen saver for the next year. Do you think about all this? I don't understand. How could you be like all the sun struck dumb. I'm not at all. There's just a lot of people here talking, and you know, I like to let everybody else get there words out. What's your thought on all? That's all. I'm a part of it, the Big Buck management. I wish more people did more of it. I tell you what's interesting to me is my dad and I were sitting around, well, first he came up and met the gals, and we were skinning in their box and we're looking at the antlers and he's like, oh, yeah, you know, like you know nice basketbacks, you know, two and a half year olds. I'm like, no, those bucks here are one and a half year olds, and they're probably one and a half year olds everywhere, but everybody thinks that they're two and a half year old. And I just think that, like across the board, everybody is shooting the here they think. I guess what I've learned is that bucks just don't even get a chance to make it to be two and a half. They just don't can just pass on like one year all of a sudden. You're just gonna see, like, so Steve had an interesting thought about that new management plans. I'm gonna copyright d Well, the way I understand it is you get everybody together, all the neighbors and everybody in the in the region that that you know you can reach out to and get to agree with, you know, some kind of management and have how many meetings. Well you go, I'm gonna invite them all to a luncheon. First, um luncheon. Luncheon, he said to not you know, for drinks or anything. We're gonna have a luncheon. And I just so anyway, and and you get everyone to agree that all we're shooting our nubs and year and a half holds. Yeah, any but any any any buck that has made it to two and a half years of age gets a pass. Yeah, because you know what you're doing. You're making a plan to have a great two thousand eighteen. Right. You're saying, any buck that is two and a half year old buck, we're gonna just have a moratorium killing those bucks, and in three years we're gonna have a bunch of five year old bucks running round. But instead people think that a management plan is to cease killing year and a half old bucks. And the problem with that plan. And I wonder if if you guys from Elroy, would agree with this that the problem with that plan is a year and a half old buck is gonna stay on your farm. He's gonna get moved out. He's gonna be then you're gonna get someone else's because where they're all going, it's not like an there's not like a new land being created. Well but yeah, yeah, but um that they're the ones that get. If you've got it, If you've got a two and a half year old buck, he's you know, you could get him to stay. Uh that buck over there that I shot last year, two and a half year old buck, d of you know, a hundred nine pointer big deer, two and a half year old buck. I shot him because he had a lake shot off. Well, i'd probably shot that deer anyway. I'm not gonna say, well, I just shot him. That's you know, that's um. But we hunted him all day. He got was wounded, and we hunted him all day and then and I finally killed him and we took him down to him tested for c w D and the guy did the aging and he said, two and a half year old, I can't believe it. He couldn't. The guy who was doing the aging couldn't believe it. He sawt three and a half year old, and we had so when I started looking at even some of those top row bucks over there, well all those bottom row bucks are probably two and a half year olds. Um, but that group of four over there, those were were there was three year old, dear, I don't know. So the standard was aged at four and that was a hundred nine two inches a horn, you know, um and it was a huge deer. I mean, you look at that picture and how you know how big that deer is? You know, it sounds ridiculous on our podcast, but we talked about the standard before, so um so the whole aging of things and so then what about the rack and you know and what all that and you get all kind of tied up and all that. So yeah, that idea that well, let's shoot the smaller ones. A guy um our our friend who was here to ony pal skill his cousin who I've had the occasion to meet and hang out with a little bit uh down by the Mineral Point area where they have some really big bucks down there. He said, I'd rather have a guy in our area shoot a year and a half old than a two and a half or three and a half year old, because us you're getting that you're gonna have that bigger buck. And they're all about big buck management, whereas I think you all have learned that what my management is about is trying to have a balance out there of what's the best thing for the for the ecosystem and the habitat for everything, and my oak trees, you know, and growing the oak trees, trying to regenerate those oak trees. So uh, buck management isn't necessarily in some areas, isn't about deer numbers. And what I could think our management is more more about deer numbers, and that's something we we took a big step forward in the last couple of days with a number of of dozes. But you made an interesting point. We were talking their day. We're kind of talk with this whole thing like me, you know, hunting for me, hunting for antlers, and how this all fits in and what it all means for everybody. And we're talking about a body of mine who came out a couple of years ago, and why don't shoot a buck? And shot a buck, shotty young buck, and then we uh roasted the buck's head antlers and everything just to get the head meat off it and then putting in the oven, ruin the antlers. Dug and I had I never thought about it, but Doug had a great point was if you can put the head in the oven, put a damn does head in the oven. But there's a thing about that, people want to shoot bucks. I think that it's two things. People want to shoot Bucks because culturally we're still responding to whim. We didn't have that many deer. It's been I don't know. We've had good numbers of deer, increasing numbers a deer for over fifty years now, Like I'm just talking in a national sense, a lot of deer um. I guess you know. The deer years were in the nineties and that was too many. Dear from from the way from many definitions. Definition not if all you want is dear, no, but forth from the looking at it from a perspective of highway safety, UM, agriculture, landscaping, forest regeneration, disease transmission. There's a lot of damn deer in the nineties. But people I still like, you don't shoot, And I've been trying to incourage you say something, But I'm just trying to fish the point. Trying to fish my point. People are still in this mindset that you don't shoot those because those make dear. You know a friend of mine Alaska, old guy, he feels like if you shoot a door, you should have your fingernails pulled out or worse. Yeah, So there's that, And there's also the thing that like it's it's it's it's it's manly to kill a buck, right, you just want to see, like whose dick is bigger. Basically, well, so that's what I want to know about because we've had talks about antlers with you two before. You know, I talked about it in my garage while you're following some mule the antlers off my wall there. So you guys, like what your thoughts on antlers are, and then like, do you guys feel any of that this weekend? Like you at all? Where you like, I kind of want to shoot a buck. My opinion was like I want to shoot the first thing that I see that I can get a good shot on, and then I want to shoot the next thing that I can that's whatever is the opposite of what I shot already. Because both not just out of like appreciation for opposites. Oh no, I mean I I guess I'm still you know, a new hunter. So I'm in the in the place where like I'll take whatever I can get, and to me like that buck is gonna taste much better than like a bagel, you know, older. But one thing about but here, I got a question. But there's nothing to keep in mind when you shoot a year and a half old buck. You can look at a buck hand like you see a buck run by. He's a spike, he's a forky like you just know he's a year and a half old. Let's he's got some kind of problem or broke his antlers off or something. But typically it's a safe assumption that that's what you're looking at. That's gonna be a great eating deer. To say that, like a dough is better eating you don't know, you might be shooting some eight year old dough. That's very true. But with a year and a half old buck, it's like you see that little spike rack coming through you like that's gonna be you know, it's a safe assumption that's a young deer. Those you don't know, right, But my point was, like I'm going to shoot it the first thing, the first opportunity that I get, and it's for in it that I got that smaller buck for me, because I think the meat is going to taste better. So how did it play out? Because you got two deer in one day? Yeah, um, I don't know. So we saw a fair amount I mean fairly sporadically coming through. You couldn't have asked the deer to be spread out any better. We only saw sixteen or eighteen deer over the course of opening day. And I say only because in the Wisconsin guys, you see sixteen or eighteen deer, especially like in the early two thousand's, you'd see them in fifteen minutes, but in like bigger groups and people got used to that and so that was part of the problem. But anyway, but so the deer were kind of spaced out. I can't even replay it in my head. It would be interesting to see, but they were like one or two and we're like okay, you know, I'm like okay, Well, then what happened was we saw them go into this betting area and then all of us were staring in this one spot and then for whatever reason, out of the corner of my eye. I spotted something to my right and I look over and there's a buck that's like thirty yards away from us, just walking right in us. If like, you know, we weren't even there, and it was just it was like too much. I don't know, I like, I wasn't Yeah, you were not going to be able to pick up the tripod move it over, and that was not going to shoot it off hand, because it's just not there yet. You could at that distance, you probably could have John wayned it, but I don't think that would be very good. But no, but then he took off and then but yeah, that's how we sat there for a little while. And then, uh, I'll give Adam the credit for spotting the dope behind us that you know, we weren't really looking behind us. Every once in a while I look back there, but um, he spotted it and set up, and I remember like, you're like, come here, can here take the shot. I was like, I want to wait for it to like walk into my window. I'm going, oh my god, Okay, And then I look and I look at the deer in the binoculars and well, well it is just feed along in there. It was us yeah, And I would say about the guys who are with us, the camera operators, it's weird for someone who doesn't do it all the time to have people like that with you, and you get used to it pretty quick. I mean, we build a big ground blind so all four of us could be in there, and you think, God, I want to be sitting out here in the woods of four people for people, you know, twitching and making and are we gonna see anything? And first of all, those guys are really good at sitting still, and and Brittany was super good at sitting still. That was probably the twitchiest one in the blind. And so for there is that downside of having those people in there, but the upside of it is you do have more than just your eyes. And my eyes are getting worse all the time, so it is really nice to have the extra sets of eyes. Um and Adam saw it anyway. Yeah, so no, I was able to you know, wait, like get set up really well and wait for her to walk into my perfect window I had and then shot, and I mean she pretty much just just piled right up. So you got the dope before the buck. I knew that, Yeah, because the buck is the buck that ran that buck that just looked up and said, I'm gonna go back to browsing. That's the same Yeah, that's the same buck that ran away from us and ran over to you guys. Different buck, different buck. This buck came in from the north. Didn't come from you guys from the south. He looked very different. Oh we didn't. So yeah, buck comes in. Well that was so that was Sam drove him to us. That was a little bit. That was actually the only two hours. Yeah, so Sam Sam mooched moved him to us because he had already killed a buck. Uh yeah, so we what we were, you know, I guess the way it went down was we knew that there were two bucks up there and maybe that dough and her fon potentially, and uh Sam said he was going to come and and mooch them to us, and kind of like you know, took a while, and so we were kind of like comming in home and we were all hungry and that maybe we'll go my dough and uh you know, yeah, maybe you went to the bathroom or like then go to the bathroom. I went over up next to a tree, so um, but yeah, I got up so right, No, that was Sam had uh been in contact with me, and he goes, well, I'll mooch that side hill and I said, well, you know, take your take your time. And I've lectured him so many times about doing it. And you say too fast, that you moved too fast. Well, we're waiting for quite a while, and then finally I know that he's he's through. He lets me know that he's through doing what he's doing, and at least I understood that to be the case. And I'm like, okay, well another ten minutes. You know, we can have we're going to take care of the dough, or we'll have a sandwich and then we'll go and take care of the dough. And uh ten minutes goes by, and I'm like, well, I'm gonna go peek. So I get up and walk down over the over to the designated pe area by our stand. How far were you guys? You're going pretty far away to pete. Well, I mean, you know, it's a mixed blind. So I wanted to, you know, if we were here, because I was peeking pretty much out the back door. Where were you going? I didn't want to get overrun by deer, so you know, I wanted to pee for like how many yards were going? Well, she was going behind because I was in the tree stand behind guys all you guys were right down. She was the only you were going out. Even more, Martin couldn't see it from his little perch up there at the Yeah, shee deer back there. We did well, we and we had those doughs that ran through that valley. The first batch of dolls came up there that you couldn't You didn't see them. They were right on the trail behind this. So that's where you're pem back there. I want to go back to Brittany's, you know, because I was there and I could relive it now. Uh yeah, So I don't know. It was like sort of a commotion because we saw it. Ridiculous. Yeah, ran out of the woods and that was like, I mean, they were gone. And then he ran out ran down into that little I guess ravine if there's a little ravine, and uh, Sam had come around the side hill and they've just been sunning themselves in that betting area on the other side. You guys may have you can see that betting, or he wouldn't. They'll see the deer and they came over, came down in the ravine and there because of where we set up the ground blind to have a better vantage point three sixty degrees, and we couldn't see that good over that side hill. And I'm done my business over there, and I turned around and came back, and I'm they're all going like this, and so I get over and what's going on. There's a buck in a dough and they're down on the hill over here. So well, okay, gets set up and you know she's and she had done most of that by the time I got there, but and boom, this deer just watched No no, no, but not about yet, but surprised. Here's this buck right in front of us. I mean he was really close to thirty or forty yards a little bit. No, not when you shot, not when you shot, but when he when he came up, and it's like, holy moly, he's just right there. And you know, she's taking her time getting set and that's kind of hard to do when all of a sudden, you know, they just up. So she's trying to get set and he drots away. So I had my brother, my brother's old uh grunt, calling it bart and and he stops and turns around and see I'm doing the call there and he's coming back. I was really proud of that. And she's getting set again and taking a little time. Come on, the little the one angel on my shoulder was getting horns and the trigger and doesn't and then he starts trotting away again, and he turns around and looks, boy, am I good at I am so good at this? And he turns around. He's between these two trees, and she pulls the trigger and down he goes, and then the dough comes up. I'm like, oh, you know, he didn't want to leave the dough. I had nothing to do with my little calls. I suppose he thought maybe it was another buck coming for that though, but he wasn't going to go very far because she was still standing down just over the edge of the hill. So it kind of deflated my call her ego. Um, but we did have a little bit of a different experience with that deer than the first. And the first one just buckled up and I was dead. That one hit in the spine. So what did it do? I didn't die right away, um, but he, I guess kind of crawled and we went after him to go put him down again, and I was going to shoot it. I went over to you know, because it was one of those things, and she goes stuck, duck stop, I want to finish it. And so because I kind of just you know, my reaction was to run over to the deer and kill it. And so I stopped, and so she came over and was kind of getting real set to do it. The dear expired. I mean it was and it wasn't a minute. It was a few seconds really. That all happened very quickly. Yeah, but you felt terrible about it though, you know that you didn't make the perfect shot. When you guys get when you got your when you get your dear, do you feel like jumping up and down, hooting and hollering or do you like it? How like we're generally look kind of not a lot a whole lot of jumping around. It's still like a I don't know, for me, it's still like a feeling of like this like weird physical reaction that's not like wanting to jump up and down. But it's I don't know, it's like this weird like rib it regret. No, it's not like an emotional reaction. It's like a physical reaction. It's just like, h like just like this wave of energy that I like, I can't describe and I don't know how to like put into words, and I don't like definitely emotional in in a sense, but I don't know. It's still I'm still not able to It's I don't know, what would you say. When I walked up to that book, I think I still had a similar feeling of when I killed that elk. Was just kind of a loss for words. But it was weird this time because back to the Antwin thing, I think I looked at and I was like, wow, those are really cool, you know. Um, but yeah, there, you know, there's a sense of loss. So you're it's not you feel bad because you know that you know that you're you're going to do this animal right, and you know, but you know, you just took this animal's life that you just saw walking these like beautiful creatures you just saw, you know, through your scope very close up, and then you see it dead on the ground, so it's very you know, and then after that you're like pulling its guts out, so it's just very It's it's hard to explain experience coming out to me like honestly, maybe more shocked because like I think I was telling you honest the next day, like I it wasn't until I was like in bed along with my own thoughts that I really kind of processed like how kind of I guess, yeah, sad that I felt for the deer and and like and I was just even taking too deer in one day. There was like part of me that was like, man, like was that gratuitous to take to kill two animals in one day? Like you know, I don't know. It was just like it's still sort of new where I'm still sort of trying to define, like you know what my hunting experience is going to be, Like you know, yeah, I feel that that kind of regret for something, but I have a hard time of feeling it for deer because I feel that dear. I think of deer almost more in the in the vegetable world. I think of there they're there's they're not that old. Um in large measure, they are they they live as a result of people. Um it's our habits are practices of clearing the land, industrial agriculture. Um it allows some many deer to exist. You know, we have far more deer now than than during Columbus's time. So when you when you when you take it dear his life, I feel like it's some way like it's not take You're not like takeing on this like you gave it to him anyways, do you know what I mean? Some of like like from a people's perspective, a truly wild thing that gets old, like when like when you kill a doll, like a doll ram, a doll sheep ram. He's probably a minimum of eight. He's not gonna be in the older than twelve, but he's going to be at least eight. And he's never seen a person before, you know, So that feels different to me. That feels like you've stepped in and undone something. You know. But then and then and the other side of it is that you know, yeah, these do you have seen people? So then you almost start thinking like, oh, did this this year knew I was gonna kill? You know, like it felt that pressure. I mean the buck that I shot in particular, I don't think did, but no, that's what I like, That buck had no idea. I wait that like that's the thing that's the whole other thing you can do. Like people go like if you just categorize just antlers, antlers is all that matters. Big buck equals good, no matter how you got it. You know, I don't know many people that actually subscribe to that, but there's plenty to do, I'm sure. But to me, I think you be. I think you should add in some other factors. The deer had no idea, completely unaware of your presence feeding away. That's worth something. You know, if it's a giant buck staring at you as you get out of your truck and and roll down the window so you can rest your rifle over the edge of the window frame, is that more valuable because it's a bigger buck. No way. But the size also, I think has something to do with it, because we want squirrel hunting. A couple of days ago, and I did definitely didn't have I mean I definitely felt a little bad and kind of again the sense of loss of it. You know, I just took this animal's life. But I did not have the same feeling as when I came up to the deer or came up to the elk, which is weird because it shouldn't, you know, you're still taking animal's life. But for some reason, the size, I mean a size size plays I agree, size plays into it. The all thing is the thing I think when I hunt squirrels is they're so fecund. A female, like a mature female man, you can put off I don't know, sixteen of them in the year, a two year old squirrels ancient? Yeah, can I ask you a question on this subject, just like in hunting for how many years now? Do you have a ritual of when you take in dear's life? Of what you do in the next five minutes, ten minutes? Oh, I can't wait to hear that answer. But prior to that, all right, football seasons rolling on, and if you got a season long fantasy football team, you probably know by now that it might not be going anywhere. Um. The thing is if you can you can do this on a weekly deal at DraftKings dot com where you get a new shot for glory every single week. And DraftKings is the destination for one week fantasy football where you can relive the fantasy draft and play for huge prizes each and every week. It's it's constantly renews, Okay, so you can challenge your friends in the custom league, or join an existing league and play for your share of a billion dollars. It's up for grabs this year at DraftKings. Just pick your contest, draft your players, collect your winnings, and net's it going to renew some old rivalries create new ones by going head to head with your friends, dudes at work, fantasy players from around the country that you don't even know like you can match up and play with them. Draft Kings is crowning a new millionaire every week this season. You could be next, but only if you get out there and play. This isn't fantasy football as usual. This is DraftKings. Welcome to the big time and go over to DraftKings dot com. When you go there, use the promo code Meet and you play for free with your first deposit and Sunday's million dollar fantasy football contest. So first place it's gonna take home a hundred grand in a whole lifetime of bragging about it now, So enter Meet for free entry now at DraftKings dot com. That's Draft Kings dot com promo code Meat Now, Doug, your ritual do you have one? Don't bullshit us. I used to more than I do now. Uh. The feeling that Helen and Brittany were both describing is probably more. Uh, I probably feel it more now than I used to, where I kind of, I don't want to say, forced myself, but felt like I should have a ritual. UM. So now when I shoot an animal, UM, it tends to be you know, I'm usually alone, so it just tends to be uh, more of a longer, quiet moment of like feeling at all. Yeah, and so if that's the ritual, that's the ritual. I mean I used to. I mean I just sit there and look at the animal. I pad it. I you know that, but there's nothing you know specific. It's more of a UM the feeling that I have that um, it's hard to describe. I think a lot of it. You have to UM, if there is a ritual or or a set of things you go through, I think you have steps you need to take that remind you to do it. Like the same way as if someone you've never met walks into the door, you might in the back of your head it might be like, oh man, I better stand up and shake the guy's hand. You know, you become you remind yourself of your obligation. It might not always happen. Actually, like you sometimes are being like, oh, I better do X right right. You see someone drop their driver's license in the airport, you know he'd be like, I better picked that up and go run into the person. Not that you just instinctively automatically do everything you're supposed to do. I find myself now and then saying, you know what, you better just take a minute to recognize what's going on. You know it does. It doesn't always happen without me going like, you know what, like the moment deserves some the moment deserves acknowledgement. Do you find that it happens with certain animals and not others? Bears? It's real hard for me with bears, dear, like whitetail dear. Um. I have to remind myself, did you did you ever cry taking a life? No? Never, I've seen it happen so many times. Never. But I started hunting I was so young. It's like I I missed all these you know, I missed all these things. I think so oftentimes when I've taken people out and have them get their first animal and they have their you know that they're overwhelmed with some motion. I just see that's something that I probably would have been the same way. But I just I was young, you know, and it was an accomplishment. I mean, that's what I remember about shooting my first dear. I was fourteen, and I accomplished. I did that, and I was really proud of it and excited and all of that. But this is maybe a weird comparison. But I still the cow on Monday, and I felt bad putting her on the trailer. I mean, you know, I speak about acknowledging it. I mean I talked to her the whole time as we were putting her on, and you know, I knew where she's gonna, know where she's going, and you know, through no fault of her own, you know. I mean, she had a medical problem that wasn't gonna get fixed, and so this is what happens. Um. So maybe I'm just getting a little more reflective in my old age or something, but um, I used to be, Uh. I used to have a real ritual where i'd actually, you know, talked to the animal and all that, and I don't, Uh, there's a lot of things that go through my head even while this hall went on, uh with Brittany. Uh, I'm thinking to myself, Okay, well I'm excited for um, I'm thinking about my management program. And she took a you know, the dough first and and that's helping that and this place produced that, and you know, here's another person who's doing this now and all that's going on at the same time. And um. Then when we got over there, I just kind of stood back and you know, sort of watched or let her have her time with the with the whole thing. And UM, I thought about that too, you know, like, okay, well you know what, as you said, you think about it, what did I you know, what do I do when when I do this? Um? When you asked me that question, I looked up at that deer and that was just a whole Uh. When I killed that deer last year, that deer had to be killed. I mean that was that was sort of the thing. So I was finishing a job, you know, and that was so that was a whole different you know, emotion and and there's a bunch of other people around, because a bunch of other people there are three other people around, and um, you know, we talked about it, but I mean it wasn't like give it. It's a little moment or something. But anyway, yeah, well I had the same experience today where with those doughs, right, because I looked back and I saw those doughs and they were little, and they're how old was the dough? What do you think? Like six months? Yeah? It was little. And I looked at it and I looked, there's two of them, and I saw him and I was like, wow, that's a small animal. Compared to the elk I shot, you know about ago. It was tiny. And my first reaction was those things are gonna go. I'm gonna let him walk. And then I texted you and I said should I shoot these little doughs? Should shoot a fun And I do? And I said yeah because I had already looked because I was I was really focused on, you know, having my binoculars, making sure that they didn't have little buttons on them. And you said yeah. I didn't say yeah, I didn't. Yes, I said kill it. You said kill it. That was your response. And from then I was like, oh, well, I had this reaction to this little dough, but I'm part of this management plan for Doug's farm, and at that point I was like all right, I'm gonna take that thing, and so I shot it. But then when I got there, then it turned back to not Dougs management plan, and my own experience was taking that life and it became an entirely different thing again. So it's a very interesting like back and forth of no, I'm gonna let it walk, No I'm gonna kill it. I'm having this experience with it, you know, and all that. What is it that makes people want to let that makes people want to let a fawn walk? Other than that you don't want to that, you want to get the maximum yield of meat off your tag? Is it like preserving innocence somehow? Like the older dear guilty of something? And yeah, that's a really interesting question. Yeah, there was something like that today. Was like I looked at those things, was like that is so small, Like it seems like they were so close at the first shot that I had at him was like forty ft because they crept up behind the deer behind the stand, and it was like wow, I like that's like too easy. I was like, what is mom gonna walk around the corner? Like I should take a bigger dough, you know, have more meat. Yeah, that I can understand. The first elk I killed the boat. I killed a calf with my boat, and the whole time out elk countin for took a few years before I got one, and I finally get one, and I thought, like, when you get to elk, you're eating big. Oh year, it's like here's this thing, you know, you know? Get Yeah, you almost two pounds, and I will say once Doug was like kill it. My next thought was when we talked about this a lot during elk camp, right, is when you see that animal on day one and you ask yourself the question of do I want meat in the freezer at the end of this hunt? Yeah? And if the question if the answer is yes, then you shoot that animal on day one and your hunt is done. Right, and don't pass up. How's it going? Yeah, No, it wasn't. Was it your thing or not your thing? Yeah, it's not my original thing. Don't pass up on the first day. What you'd be happy to have on the whatever? Ten So and I thought to myself, I'd love to have that. I'd love to have that meet in the freezer. I wasking about it completely from the standpoint, well not completely, but much from the standpoint of if you kill a dope font you just took a huge step in the management of you know, reducing the herd right here. Oh absolutely, and that's why that's why I said kill it, and had you said kill it. And by the way, I need one too, and we can party hunt kill the other one that was with it. And as soon as I saw you and you were like, yeah, the mom probably got hild there was two fonds left. You were doing that animal of favor because like they may not have made the winner. You know, who knows there are two little fonds is like we could have just taken both. And that went out there all by itself. Yeah, lonely, I know, right, a little lonesome animal. Anyway, it was an interesting back and forth, you know that whole thing. Yeah, yeah, and and and so I mean you all did, uh, you know, did good work in the management plan. I need to well, Helen, just not me like it just fine work in the management plan. Uh. But you know, we took a number of what did we take We took twelve deer eight does uh? And uh that's a big deal. But that doesn't diminish you know, the life of the animal or anything like that. But there's a certain matter of factness about it that you have to have or you're not gonna You're not gonna do it. I mean, if you're sitting there getting all emotional about it. So it reminds me of the thing that you said to Uh, that Steve said to the to the vegan when you had the Uh confronted, but when you had that discussion with him, that that book signing that's on on YouTube and stuff, you said, Um, I know more about dear or I care more about dear than you ever will. And it may not have to do I may not care as much about an individual dear but about deer in general. And I'm totally hacking it up. But the idea of dearness, yeah, there are and there's lots of them, and so, uh, I don't know that I could go out and kill a doll sheep. I couldn't go cut a redwood tree. And I know guys, you know, I know other guys who do it every day. I can go and kind a hundred fifty year old oak tree because it's time for it to go. Yeah, I wouldn't be able to saw a redwood. Yeah, And you know, so it says that, but if I lived around him and knew about him, I might and that. Yeah, so I feel like an interloper. So all of that is a part of the thought process, that and the emotions and everything that go with it. For me, that was another big thing today. The best past couple of days was more than anything, I felt like I learned a lot about deer, you know, just watching them and seeing how they behave, the stop and go miss of them, how they interest, they can run silently, they can through the woods and you don't hear. Yeah. I thought about that quote to actually when I was sitting they're just learning more about deer. I was like, Okay, if you want to hunt them, you have to know how they move, how they you know, how they behave with you know. That's got it. That's the that That's a thing that baffles me about people who um are perplexed by hunting is that they think that you have animal that they think hunters have animosity towards animals. People who have animosity towards animals are horrible hunters you never will get you never get good at it, or are serial killers. Yeah, it's like the asp that oh you like to hunt and kill animals because you somehow like violence on animals. But be like the people I know who are really good at hunting really become students of animals. They love to be around them. That's such a weird statement to me. Well, it's sucking it's out there, um, but here, let's do this. Helm was your concluding thoughts. No, you know what, Let's go clockwise like we're dealing poker, like we're dealing ker Johnny, Can I ask the question for my clinica? Yeah? Man, you want to want Helen to uh span on the hurt the antlers or just the answer whether or not you're thinking about it at all. Were you right there with Brittany just just thinking I just need to kill the first animal I get a shot at, you asked? Steve asked that question earlier, and instinctively I said, yeah, it doesn't matter. But I think once we started looking at them, I was like, I think it'd be cool to have because I already, you know, I had shot a cow elk before, and I was like, I think it would be cool to to maybe shoot a book or just seeing them more. I think the first time I kind of looked at the scope, and I was like, Okay, I get it. Was when we were glassing for elk in Montana and we were spotting mule deer and you'd be like, oh, wow, that's a huge mule deer and I didn't really it just didn't click for me. There was nothing about it that was that was that made me want to shoot that animal more than another animal, or maybe you want to have that animal, you know, on my wall or anything like that. And then Jane when we're at Janes's house butchering the elk, and he was showing me, you know, some of his animers that he had in his garage, you know, and I think once you hold them in your hand, you're just kind of there's something about them that that are definitely magical. And you know, even sitting in this room, you're like, it makes you want to one day, you know, to bug that could potentially be on the top shelf. Um. But yeah, I really didn't get it before. It was not something that was interesting to me because it was like yeah, yeah, in Yi's garage and then you had affirmation here in Wisconsin. Yeah, because the way we got into hunting was because you know, through the meat aspect, through the eating aspect of it. You know. That's why for me, broadside, it is the only shot I'm comfortable with right now because I know that if I shoot it through the lungs or shoot it through the heart or something like that, then it's you know, the least amount of waste meat wise, like I'd rather not if the animals facing me and there's potential that it it could you know, the whole damn thing to go off the back ham. Yeah, and like that's what's the point, you know, And you did land just the perfect heart shot. Yeah, I was very happy about that. But excellent, Mark Smith, until I clean missed the Yeah, and you could have another if you don't want to have your complute question. I was very interested. You're some far atnight? Hell was your concluding thought? Blocks? Blocks, He's looking really tired. Nothing. I just, um, I'm excited to finally be here. It feels kind of surreal being here after working on the show for a while, and you know, seeing the famed doctor where it's famed. But yeah, I guess on the show and now huh oh, I thought she said shamed, thank you for having us on, you know, on your farm, And it was a really cool experience to get a different kind of hunting. Um, you know, is there. I feel like it's so different from the first hunt that we've done, and um, equally as fun and equally as challenging, you know, in a different way. So Brittany, yeah, No, I mean I was again like echoing when Helen just said, stoked to finally meet Doug durn and was the first time. Yeah, go hunting together. Um, but I was also excited to even though we really didn't see a damn thing. I was super excited to hunt with Helen for the first time. We didn't talk about that because we don't talk about squirrels either. Man, girls were so much fun. Actually that skinning squirrels is the worst part. But no, I was excited to hunt with Helen. We although we we had a very um an unsuccessful rabbit hunt in Montana where he basically threw rocks at trees and kicked up bushes and stuff. But that but this is our first time and we like didn't kill each other. Just sitting in the blind all day and not not seeing anything. We had a great time. It was a lot of fun because you guys logged the whole day just together, yeah, and didn't see anything till the last minute, and we were like, we're a pretty good team for like beginners, I thought, you know, I mean a little slow on like trying to figure out if it was a buck or dough. And in the end she didn't take the shot because we were in a hundred percent sure and we were losing light and you thought it had spots. It was sparker then then the ones that we had seen the day before. Probably I had hoped that, Hm, you know, I've done this before with you guys, not with you two, but uh, you know, so this is my third time hosting or whatever it is, said hey do here, and uh, you know, I've always tried to have the atitude of we're just gonna do what we do. And uh, I guess now I understand it's kind of how it's done. And I want to make sure that you guys get what it is that you want. And one of the things that I was reminded of during this the last few days was what we want is to come and experience what it is that you guys do here and um and you know, and let that story tell itself. And the other part was taking uh, Brittany and to a lesser degree, Helen hunting. Um, not knowing Brittany other than some email exchanges and stuff that we worked on and you know together and you know, contact through the other shows and whatnot. But okay, So Eleanor's my daughter has gone hunting with me a couple of times, but she's not shot. She just you know, goes along and and creeps through the woods with me and stuff. And so I wondered how I was gonna, you know, handle I wonder what was gonna be like with you know, having a woman in the in the blind and and guy, she's gonna get all emotional if she shoots something and that. Um. And so it was a really interesting experience for me too. And uh, you know, on the front end, you wonder about, well, what are you hoping to get out of this and what are you or what's this gonna be like for you? And UM. Once again, it's just a great experience to have you all here. Those of you have been here before, and really wonderful to have those of you who are here for the first time. And I just feel really lucky that uh one that um, for whatever reason, we've all got to meet and do this together, and that I feel really uh, it's been really wonderful to be able to share this piece of property and everything that goes with it with you all too. So that's my concluding thought. It's a good one. Thank you, Mating. I'm gonna teach I'm not teaching our Latvian trick because we learned blouch. If I'm talking to mating, I say mating. If I'm talking about matting, I say, my teach seven different conjugations of the really, so I put in use right now, I'll say, Mating, would you like to do your concluding thoughts? Then that turned slightly to Doug, and I say, Doug, my teach, it's gonna do his concluding thoughts indeed. And I turned a Dug and say, Doug, thank you for having us and allowing me to shoot my first supply tail. Yeah, I'll be part of part of that. So I appreciate that that was cool too. To be able to take out Chris, um, it was with me all, you know, the whole time. And the ridge pounder pounder, ridge pound a k A ridge pounder a K A cameraman for me, yeah, um. And and to be able to go in hunt also, and I just you know, it just sort of expanded the experience sort of in a way that, um, oh, yeah, we can do that too, can't we. These guys are like down there and getting a license yesterday when I said something about yeah and off they went, So yeah, that was cool. Is that your entire concluding thought? That wasn't no, I was gonna say that, Um, I'm still only six. I didn't start hunting as young as my brother did, and so I'm only six kills in to my hunting career and I still cried be elk five of them being yeah, two cows, three bulls, and now one little dough in Wisconsin, and I still cry every time. And it's like it is such a experience of being close to God for me that it's really really powerful, and so I'm thankful that I got to do it here. Um it's cool to do coming out here is nice to I wander around a lot and go to a lot of places, but it's nice to have like a spot like this where you kind of come in and and uh gain sort of like a more intimate familiarity with something. And I've been here a bunch now, Um in somebody that reminds me a lot of growing up. I grew up where we hunted a couple of farms about the size of this farm. Um, and did all of our squirrel hunting there, did all our deer hunting there, not all, but a ton of it on these two places. And in those places kind of dissolved away. Um, the patriarchs that you know there was in that area, like the the just the generational change, like you have these farmers and then they raised their families there, but then they're dead. There wasn't enough farming to support all the kids farming, and so the kids went on to do other things, you know, and then when the dad died, the farms has changed. It became like more like recreational areas and not working farms, and uh, that kind of went away, you know, Like you're on one hand, the old man farmer guy, I didn't really care. You're more than welcome to come out front of the family, and other people got where why would I have you out here? You know, I'm always joking with you by he shouldn't let anybody else hunt. You're not joking. So um, it is nice to have like a farm to come to and and and see that you know that chunk of ground evolve over time. Yeah, I completely understand that. And the idea that you get that, Yeah, that you've been here enough now that when I say something about an area or we're talking, you know, you're wherever you are and I'm here or somewhere else, and we can talk about the farm and I can say, well, you know that spot by the or you'll say you know that spot by the And that's pretty cool, all right, Thanks Tuna, dude,

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