00:00:08 Speaker 1: If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless. 00:00:12 Speaker 2: Severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening past, you can't predict anything brought to you by first Light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds, no compromise, gear that keeps me in the field longer, no shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at first light dot com. 00:00:35 Speaker 1: That's f I R S T L I T E dot com. 00:00:43 Speaker 2: All right, everybody, we're if you ever wanted to know everything you'd ever wanted to know about hot dogs and sausages, not your chance, joined today by your mechanical engineer. Mechanical engineer, mechanical engineer and hot dog expert. John Carter from Alabama came on the show because we were talking Randall. It is a big explain how the. 00:01:04 Speaker 1: Whole thing happened. Rand This is your this is your deal. 00:01:06 Speaker 3: Well, we were talking about uh making hot dogs with Jesse Griffiths and I received an email. 00:01:15 Speaker 4: Roman passed it along. 00:01:16 Speaker 3: There was an email sent to the podcast the mediator at the medater whatever dot com, and it's it was rather bold in its tone. He said, I don't know what sort of quack hack you've got lined up here. We hadn't mentioned Jesse by name, so it was not a personal side against Jesse, but I said, we're working with someone. He said, I know all about hot dogs, the science of hot dogs. Uh, And he said I could guarantee you that I can give you. It caught my I'm glad that you worded it that way because it caught my attention. And I called you up and I talked to you for thirty or forty minutes about hot dogs. You cleared up some misconceptions that I had in my own mind about a subjec near and dear to my heart. And I said to Steve, this should just be a podcast, because I think I came into you with maybe the two things that really had my head spinning about caseless technology. 00:02:13 Speaker 4: And I learned about lunch meat on that call. 00:02:15 Speaker 3: And I sort of paced around my house for a few few minutes afterwards, just thinking how little I knew about something you thought you knew I thought I knew all about. And so here we find ourselves. 00:02:27 Speaker 2: Yeah, because initially what was going on is I was talking about wanting to make a video about making roller dogs, right, meaning making hot dogs and in our world, in the in our world of sort of wild game and fancy food things, people hear hot dogs making hot dogs of deer meat, and they always are in their mind they're trying to elevate the hot dog or add a spin on a hot dog. And so I started saying, Okay, never mind hot dog, I'm talking about roller dogs, meaning when you go into a gas station and you find hot dogs at a shockingly low price. Right, Okay, there was a if you're in siouxs like in Michigan, there's Sue, Ontario and Sue, Michigan, sister cities separated by the Saint Mary's River. The Canadians always want to pull into our gas station because they can get smokes and stuff cheaper than can get them over in their own country. So this is a big gas station full of Canucks going in there to do to get gas. They fill up, right, because America just has some things are cheaper in America. This place used to have four roller dogs. This is I'm going back to early nineties. Four roller dogs for a dollar. 00:03:59 Speaker 1: Sometimes insane hot dog prices. 00:04:01 Speaker 5: It's impressive. 00:04:02 Speaker 2: So if I'm like, how do you make a hot dog? We wanted to make a video about it. So that's why we were like trying to find hot dog experts. 00:04:13 Speaker 1: And then you wrote in saying that the hot dog experts were using aren't up to the job. 00:04:18 Speaker 2: Well, we're sitting here again, and I don't want a hack on. This is a great This is a sausage. If you can see in the camera, Philly, they can see this. Yes, there's a couple of little scraps. Someone sent these in. They sent it under a package called roller Dogs. It's a Venison roller dogs. It's an elevated it's delicious. 00:04:37 Speaker 1: It's delicious. If I made that, I'd be proud of myself. Ain't a hot dog? 00:04:41 Speaker 5: Right? 00:04:42 Speaker 1: In a hot dog? 00:04:43 Speaker 3: It's like if someone said, oh, I make an oreo, but it's better than oreos, and it's they have like a little chocolate cookie and there's some cream filler and another chocolate cookie. It might be a great cookie, but it's not gonna tickle all the Oreo notes. 00:05:00 Speaker 2: Because when someone yeah, you're right, they would make it, they'd be like, oh, no, it's an oreo, but it's better. 00:05:05 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:05:06 Speaker 5: And when a consumer goes into a store, they make a purchase on two points. My wallet what's the thing look like? Okay, visually because you haven't tasted it yet, right, so you can't make a decision on taste. So it's gonna be how much does it cost and what's it visually look like? 00:05:22 Speaker 1: Okay? 00:05:22 Speaker 5: And those are key points for the whole processed meat industry is visual appeal price point. And I think what you're saying is I want that hot dog price point. I want it to look and feel and taste like a traditional store bought hot dog. 00:05:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the goal. Tell me, Well, first off, give me like, how'd your career go? 00:05:45 Speaker 2: Like, how'd you wind up in the how'd you wind up in the case like sausage casing hot dog biz. 00:05:51 Speaker 5: It's a bizarre path. So, yeah, my senior year in high school. So I'm gonna go all the way back to nineteen ninety two. 00:05:59 Speaker 1: That's the year you graduate. 00:06:00 Speaker 5: I did me too, really, Hell yeah, seventy three. 00:06:03 Speaker 1: I was back with hot dogs, roll the dogs. That was like the kind of I do that. It's like the Heyday roll. That's that's what we ate for breakfast in high school. 00:06:10 Speaker 5: Yeah, we probably put on there the night before and you're getting getting the roller dog from. 00:06:15 Speaker 2: Pull into Yeah, you'd pull into the station, buy five dollars worth of gas one dollar worth of hot dogs, So. 00:06:23 Speaker 5: That's in twenty seven to twenty eight to twenty nine millimeter. 00:06:26 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is what got me when we're talking about when we're talking about the boar diameter of a hot dog, this is what really got me going. But yeah, we had a Marathon gas station that was like two miles from the high school and it was like ninety nine cents for two dogs and a small fountain drink, and then you could spend the other dollar. Yeah, and you could spend the other dollar on a scratch off ticket. So it was like the best of both worlds. You knew what you were getting and you also dig. 00:06:58 Speaker 1: Fountain for a dollar. Yeah. 00:07:00 Speaker 2: Yo, this is nothing to do with any man. That's why I throw this in. From nineteen ninety two whatever we used to have. You ever hear a Hearty's the restaurant Hardy's. We had a Hearty's near our high school. Harty's was running this thing. I can't remember if it was Tuesdays or Thursdays. Early in the morning. 00:07:20 Speaker 1: It was all you could eat b and g biscuits and gravy, all you could eat for a dollar ninety nine and it would be a foam You'd go up to the counter and you'd give you a foam square and they'd just mount it with B and G and you'd go back to your seat and you could barely finish it. But if you did, you'd go up and it'd held true to their word. They would hand you another one of them foam trades, just mounted with that like fake. There's some it was like milk and flour. 00:07:50 Speaker 4: There's some gen zers listening to this right now, wondering what's sort of. 00:07:53 Speaker 1: A horrible world they're in herited. 00:07:55 Speaker 5: My first job, at sixteen years old, I was a chef. Had a little restaurant called. 00:08:02 Speaker 1: Yeah not a cook ship, that's right. 00:08:05 Speaker 5: I was in charge of the breakfast bar, and we had all you can eat fried trump at Shoney. We'd roll out your your reorder would come out, there'd be two on the plate. We just keep sending you to, keep sending you to until you got second. 00:08:19 Speaker 1: You'd wear them out. You'd wear them out. Yeah, they become physically exhausted before they became full through having the refreshenir play. 00:08:26 Speaker 5: Yeah. 00:08:27 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So your career nineteen ninety two. You graduated ninety two. 00:08:31 Speaker 5: I went to a physics class. My physics teacher in high school was Robin Williams half brother. Really, it was McLaurin Smith Williams Christian Brothers High School in Memphis, Tennessee. 00:08:44 Speaker 1: Robin Williams half brother looked just. 00:08:46 Speaker 5: Like him, had the same sense of humor and. 00:08:50 Speaker 1: Writing poetry on the chalkboard. 00:08:51 Speaker 5: It was awesome. So like I became this guy that said I want to be an engineer because that one guy. So I went in. 00:09:00 Speaker 2: Because he was robbing William's half brother, because he was inspiring in. 00:09:03 Speaker 5: Him, inspiring in and of himself. Yeah. 00:09:07 Speaker 1: Yeah, he didn't have a lot of jingle like his brother. Wasn't passing a lot of jingle off to No. 00:09:11 Speaker 5: He was a high school teacher and that you know that, that's who he was. I got a picture of him. I'll say, I'll show you look just like him. 00:09:18 Speaker 1: That's great. 00:09:19 Speaker 5: He uh So he wanted me to go to the University of Tennessee to be a nuclear engineer. I wanted to be a mechanical engineer. And I visited the University of Alabama. And once you visit the University of Alabama. You go to the University of Alabama. Just a beautiful campus. That's just an amazing opportunity. Not not not throwing anything out for day school or anything. I'm not a paid endorser. 00:09:47 Speaker 1: But my boy, he's getting to the point where his mom's starting to harass him about his college plans. Out to throw that one out to him. 00:09:52 Speaker 5: Visit Alabama. My daughter went there as well. 00:09:55 Speaker 1: You know'll be a good you know what company you he should start? Man, we'd kill it. Maybe we'll let Randall in on it. If we started a company called nuclear hot Dogs, it's a good idea. We might have nuclear hot Dogs. We'd kill it on that. 00:10:08 Speaker 5: It's good brand. 00:10:09 Speaker 4: We might have missed the boat. I don't know. I feel like there's. 00:10:12 Speaker 1: Already one call. 00:10:12 Speaker 4: There's got to be some guy out there clear hot dogs. 00:10:14 Speaker 1: No, there's not. 00:10:17 Speaker 4: I know atomic Burger. 00:10:19 Speaker 1: Oh would they sue you? No, I don't know not they would. They might try to cease and desist. You just ignore it. 00:10:27 Speaker 5: Atomic. Atomic and nuclear are pretty nuclear dogs. Those are two totally different areas. 00:10:32 Speaker 4: Let's look into that. 00:10:33 Speaker 1: Go on, well, I will hash out the details on this. 00:10:36 Speaker 5: Later went to went to Alabama, graduated mechanical engineering. Uh, the whole plan was to be a process engineer. That was the plan. And upon graduation means yeah, so every plant, whether they make steel, they make hot dogs, they make paper, they make cars, process engineers in them and their response. They're responsible for optimized in the process, managing quality, improving the efficiency of the plant, things of that nature. So I did a co op so I would go to school for a semester and then work for a semester, then go to school, then work. So it's called a co op program. So yeah, it took me six and a half years to graduate college. But it's because I worked aver smiths, I promise, Yeah, at a steel mill, a cast iron pipe manufacturing facility in Birmingham, and I was convinced that's what I was going to do and interviewed. The job market was hot in ninety two or ninety seven when I graduated, and. 00:11:38 Speaker 1: I didn't dip in on that it was good. 00:11:43 Speaker 5: I think I ended up getting like fish hot. I got nine job offers coming out of college, and two of them were sales jobs. Seriously, yeah, so two were in sales, one was in the paper industry. 00:11:55 Speaker 1: People come and looking for you, Yeah. 00:11:57 Speaker 5: Me, who doesn't like this guy? 00:11:59 Speaker 1: I know, but that's just funny. 00:12:01 Speaker 5: I had a lot more. 00:12:02 Speaker 2: Hey, if I'd gotten out of college and just waited for someone to come looking for me, they weren't coming. 00:12:06 Speaker 5: Right right the co op heal because that's what people look for. They look for that experience. So I had it by working every other semester. The sales jobs came with a little bit more money, and the job I eventually took came with a sweet nineteen ninety seven Chevy astro Van as a car. And that's what kicked it over the end. 00:12:26 Speaker 1: Look a take home car, I was it got it. 00:12:29 Speaker 5: So that took me into paper. So I worked in paper, mostly in tissue and towel for a while, some timing, leather and the source obviously for paper cellulose. The source for hot dog casings the cellulose. So I knew of the company I worked for now this case that from that experience and wanted to try something new. So that's what brought me into the hot dog. So I went from Ron Williams half brother kind of down this weird. 00:13:01 Speaker 2: Path to being a hot dog in the in the process engineer at Atom of hot Dogs, can we touch on leather thing because we're right before we started, just very quickly touch on before we started. We visited just as we were kind of gearing up, and you were sharing with me that you've seen a lot of changes in the the leather industry since the time you were in it, and that a big driver, this is a pun, No, it's like a pun neighbor. A big driver of the leather industry is the automotive industry. 00:13:39 Speaker 5: You touch on it so that, yeah, the leather industry is run out of Italy because of the fashion roots, So that's where everything's run. What drives a lot of the volume and leather is automobile car seats, and it's just just because of pure volume. You know, it takes a lot more leather to make a car seat that it does a boot. 00:14:03 Speaker 2: And when we discussed that, I was sharing that a friend of mine from high school, her her a friend of mine from high school. Her mom was Bolivion and I don't know how it all happened, but. 00:14:17 Speaker 1: She wound up marrying a dude from South Africa who was a leather byer and he bought leather for luxury auto And again this is going back to this is going back to that like this. The time that I met him and that he was doing this would have been early two thousands, and he was buying all this leather down in South America. 00:14:41 Speaker 2: I think maybe maybe we talked about Patagonia bit and he he's buying leather in South America. 00:14:46 Speaker 1: Barber wire is not as prevalent down there. And he was talking about how it's hard to find large pieces of perfect leather that you would use to do a car seat, like unblemished leather for like premium auto, right, and you were telling them about how that is that that industry isn't decline. 00:15:05 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean social pressure is a is a big piece of it. You know, social media drives a lot of the younger generation. The terms vegan leather is out there. What I think is it's it's kind of a weird term to me, but basically it's it's making it out of plastics and things of that nature. Because the concept is is I don't want to kill cow for the seats in my car, but that cow is not being killed for the seats in your car. Cow's being killed for the burger that you ate for lunch. Leather is a byproduct of that whole industry. So it's what's a shame is a lot of the leather that's produced from the meat industry is going in landfills. It's being burned in boilers to produce energy and steam and never making it into a leather good, which is a shame. That's not proper use of the animal. In opinion, it is. 00:16:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's surprising that people want it out of that. People want that material. 00:16:09 Speaker 1: Out of out of an oil or a plastic product, and then to put the really durable, renewable stuff into the ground. That's right, Yeah, a right back to hot dogs. 00:16:24 Speaker 2: So the cellul little steel you're dealing paper? Tell people, tell what is that? When you say that? Did you say cellulars or something different? Okay, explain that? 00:16:33 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean so, so I came from paper. I live in Mobile, Alabama. We're in the southern yellow pine forest, lob lolly pines, long leaf pines, all of those types of trees, and that's where I hunt to. I'm a huge I've got a buddy who owns two hundred and forty acres. I'm his work labor, okay, and he owns land. So we we we hunt together. I cut a pine tree off the roof of the single white trailer last weekend. 00:17:06 Speaker 1: You're like, you're like maintenance and habitat. 00:17:08 Speaker 5: That's right, that's right. So yeah, we we do all tractor lists. Anyway, we got a whole thing going on. But it's all farmed pine trees. 00:17:19 Speaker 1: Okay. 00:17:20 Speaker 5: I mean my truck is sitting in the airport parking lot right now, covered in yellow pollen right now from the from the pine pollen. It's so down in that area of the world used to be owned by a lot of paper companies. A lot of the paper companies got out of owning land. They buy trees. Now, there are a few Warehouser Ran Air Forest Products. There's a few out there that that still own the land. 00:17:46 Speaker 2: I wasn't aware, like I know that those places used to own these huge tracks one and what was the outfit in western Montana. 00:17:54 Speaker 1: There is Wirehouser, plum Creek and all that oh. 00:17:58 Speaker 5: So plump plumb Creek, you. 00:18:00 Speaker 1: Know what I'm talking about. 00:18:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, like all that stuff above the Clark Fork when you're going down nine to nine, you looking, Yeah, but it's. 00:18:05 Speaker 5: Not the international paper. I think plum Creek bought international papers and I think that's right, huh, But I don't want somebody to get a new pair of boots on my mistake. 00:18:16 Speaker 1: Either way, I didn't know that that was a trend. I guess. 00:18:19 Speaker 2: I can think of all kinds of places and people that have bought land that used to be timber company land, but I didn't recognize it as part of the general thing where they were like holding fewer asset land. 00:18:28 Speaker 5: Assets, definitely holding fewer land assets. International Paper, the largest packaging company in the world. I don't think owns any land assets other than when the plants are, you know, up in Canada, not so much like that. So the Irving family, I don't know if you know about the Irving family out in Canada, Robert and JD. Irving, they're the most vertically integrated. They're like a poster story on vertical integration. They on the land. They said, well, what else can we do with this land? We can plant trees, we can make paper, we can mine oil, we can well, we're building all these plants, so we're going to start a construction company. Like they just keep bolting on stuff out of that company. And they're one of the biggest landowners in Canada. 00:19:15 Speaker 1: Yeah. When when we were working on. 00:19:20 Speaker 2: Our hide Hunter's audio book about the history of the Buffalo hide hunters, we towards the end of that we get into the tannery the tanneries, like where are these high where all these hides were going and what they were making out of them? 00:19:36 Speaker 1: And that was kind of a detail about those tanneries is that the tanneries were basically places that owned enormous tracks of hemlock, right, and that was like you centered your tannery around that in these places owned I can't remember what. 00:19:54 Speaker 2: It was, absurd amounts of hemlock, not buying the trees from other people. 00:19:58 Speaker 1: They own the ground, you know. 00:19:59 Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's that's where all the paper metals end up popping up, is where's the wood basket. So there's a lot of paper industry in the southeast US is big because that's where the wood basket is, ok, and it's sustainable forestry yep. And that sustainable forestry in the Southeast US goes to make toilet paper, packaging and hot dog casings. 00:20:21 Speaker 1: And they're like they're moving, there's enough hot dog packet, there's enough hot dog casings getting made out of celluloas that you were aware of it when you were in the wood business. But if you pie charged out, who's using this the hot dog chunks gotta be like not even you can't even see, you know. 00:20:38 Speaker 2: When you look at a pie chart and know only that you can see about one of the wedges, is there's lines. Yeah, but you can't tell what's in the line. 00:20:45 Speaker 3: I bet there's a very specific term for that, and I'd love to know what it is. 00:20:49 Speaker 1: Like the line is. 00:20:50 Speaker 2: Bigger than the share, Like the line is thicker than the share of hot dogs, is what I'm trying to say. 00:20:57 Speaker 5: Correct, You're not wrong. So there's a specific type of wood pulp that's used for making cellulis casings, and it's it's what's called dissolving pulp, so you dissolve it and regenerate it. High value chain dissolving pulp is used to make hot dog casings. It's also used to make dude wipes. It's also used to make diapers and feminine care products. It's also used to make athletic sportswear, rayons and things of that nature. Tin Cell is a brand name in that space, really, So that's the That's one of the main things that I want to do. Coming on here is just to talk about we work in the woods, cutting trees and hunting and doing all that kind of stuff. What happens when the trees leave our property, and that's what happens toilet paper, wet wipes, feminine care diapers, all that kind of stuff comes out of those those forests. 00:22:02 Speaker 2: Before we go deeper into that, and I want to go deeper into that, can you explain Remember we started up talking about roller dogs cheap gas station hot dogs. Can you explain where a hot dog ends and begins? 00:22:13 Speaker 5: Like? 00:22:13 Speaker 1: What is not globally? 00:22:16 Speaker 2: I don't care about dudes in Germany or something, but like when I go into a gas station and I see a roller dog. 00:22:22 Speaker 1: Like what am I looking at right? 00:22:24 Speaker 5: Good question? 00:22:25 Speaker 2: Or another putting other way, just to include a high more people with awareness. If you're in New York City and you go to a corner and there's a dude with a stainless steel he's got a cart and in it is a stainless steel tub. 00:22:37 Speaker 4: And you can feel the mists of the steam. 00:22:39 Speaker 2: And you order a dog and he takes the lid off and it's a steamy. 00:22:43 Speaker 1: We call him water, not roller dogs. 00:22:44 Speaker 2: We call those water dogs and he dicks the hot dips a hot dog out of a bucket of hot water that hot dog. 00:22:50 Speaker 5: Yeah, what is it? Well, there are those hot dogs, Okay, And then you go to the supermarket and it's a whole. You can get a pack of hot dogs for two bucks. You can get a pack of hot dogs for eight bucks. Yeah, And so the difference in that range is all about what is it made out of? Does it have fillers, does it have you know, those types of things. So in its core form, a hot dog is made of salt, ice, lean, protein, and fat. 00:23:28 Speaker 1: But what's it stuffed into? 00:23:30 Speaker 5: And it's stuffed into a ninety percent of the hot dogs in the US are stuffed into a cellular space casing. So it's an inedible casing that that that is stuffed into. This case actually invented that space. 00:23:49 Speaker 1: So we see one there back. 00:23:50 Speaker 5: In nineteen thirty we invented this guy. And that's that's on a sheared stick. 00:23:58 Speaker 2: If I started walking, if random had one, and I've read one, and how far apart would he be when. 00:24:02 Speaker 5: This was that one is two hundred feet? Wow? Yeah, probably that's two hot dogs. That's that's probably one hundred one hundred hot dogs in there, going, yeah, because there's waste that you know that they twist and takes up some space. Yeah, So we sell in links from eighty four feet up to two hundred. 00:24:26 Speaker 1: Foot and that's a wood product. 00:24:29 Speaker 5: That's a cellulose product. That's product which one one source of solos is wood. Another source of cellulose is cotton winters. Who cotton winters? Do you know what a cotton winterest? So it's used in uh money. 00:24:46 Speaker 1: That's a product. 00:24:47 Speaker 5: Of cotton, right, It's it's fiber that's inside the seed. Yes, So you can make that same product out of cotton liners, out of dissolving pulp from trees. Some some interest sting research going into using bamboo as a salo source and things of that nature. The two predominant sources are cotton letters and woodbull He's. 00:25:10 Speaker 1: Trying to get me going on eli winter and the cotton. 00:25:13 Speaker 4: Don't take the baby, don't take the baby. 00:25:16 Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into that. 00:25:17 Speaker 5: I think it's Whitney. It's winter. 00:25:23 Speaker 3: So when we talked, one of the things that I was asking you about is when you buy a hot dog, because the case, the casing that the hot dog is being stuffed into is inedible. 00:25:38 Speaker 5: Just there in the manufacturer right process. 00:25:40 Speaker 3: And so you so, so what happens like when you stuff the case and we. 00:25:44 Speaker 4: Can get into emotions and all that and a little bit. 00:25:46 Speaker 1: But like. 00:25:48 Speaker 3: You just mentioned that this is an edible, So describe how we go from an inedible casing to me eating a hot dog. 00:25:54 Speaker 2: But bahd, I got a call. I gotta crack to you on something that's the flavor profile of a hot dog is salt. 00:26:02 Speaker 5: That salt is the most important ingredient in hot dog. 00:26:07 Speaker 1: There's a little more in there. 00:26:08 Speaker 5: When we get to emulsion science, we'll talk about the importance of salt. 00:26:13 Speaker 1: Okay, so pick up his deal. 00:26:15 Speaker 5: Yeah, so hot dogs originally came from Germany called docks and docks and sausages. That's why we turned that into hot dogs in the US. Really, what was the word docks and sausages? 00:26:29 Speaker 1: See, I would think someone's making sausages out of those little dogs. Yeah. 00:26:35 Speaker 5: I think it was a shape, skinny long, and they were made in natural casings. They would hang them in the in the butcher stores. I'm sure in Phil's Christmas play he had some sausages hanging hanging in the background. 00:26:51 Speaker 1: I think that was a huge oversight on Phil's part. 00:26:57 Speaker 5: I didn't harass the prop department to get some. 00:27:01 Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't remember there being sausages. I don't. 00:27:04 Speaker 5: I don't believe they were. 00:27:05 Speaker 1: There was just a big fake goose. 00:27:07 Speaker 5: You get no more small fake dickens. There's nothing more dickens than hanging sausages. 00:27:12 Speaker 2: I would expect next next year, around Christmas time, I would expect a call from film. 00:27:16 Speaker 1: That's all make some calls. 00:27:18 Speaker 5: Uh. So they were made natural casing. So what what our founder did is he said, I've seen this new process in Europe called the Viscos process, and we can create a permeable, low cost casing for manufacturing hot dogs. And so that's what we did. And the key thing to a hot dog casing is before that, hot dogs were all different lengths, all different diameters. Because you were you were using a natural product. They're all different diameters, right, they don't have rules. When you can manufacture a casing product. You get a very uniform hot dog. Got it, and then you can package it. You don't have to hang it on the in the store and cut links off. You can package it in a one pound package. So why this material was chosen is primary because of its annular rigidity. So it doesn't it holds its shape, it doesn't expand it does have some give so that they can stuff it to a certain pressure. 00:28:22 Speaker 1: Would you call that word again. 00:28:23 Speaker 5: Annular strength? So it's strength are a round a circle. 00:28:28 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the old days we would have called this episode annular rigidity. 00:28:33 Speaker 1: We switched to bad titles, all right, yeah. 00:28:36 Speaker 5: Perfect, And it's permeable and that's the critical factor. It has to be permeable to smoke because the majority of the skinless hot dogs, so that's what we sell in the US right now, they're all skinless hot dogs. What happens is in the cooking process, smoke penetrates, it cross links proteins at the surface of that hot dog and forms its own skin out of cross link proteins. And that's what gives you a snap. So there is no skin on that hot dog that's managed through smoking and cooking. 00:29:10 Speaker 1: Okay, I got a backs up from it again. 00:29:15 Speaker 2: You go, well, let's do this. You're going to a gas station because you're going to a Fourth of July party and you're binding you buy the cheapest sack of how many comes in a typical. 00:29:27 Speaker 1: We got one freezer. You see that block of hot dogs in the worst. 00:29:32 Speaker 4: There's an open one. 00:29:37 Speaker 1: Like like an Oscar. What I don't want to know, Yeah, Oscar the worst, not the worst, the least expensive hot dog. No, not the worst, meaning best, the least expensive hot dog you can find. 00:29:47 Speaker 5: It wouldn't be the one you just mentioned. 00:29:49 Speaker 2: Okay, but the lead, the store brand, least expensive hot dog you can find. There is no case on that hot dog now, but that hot dog has been smoked. 00:30:02 Speaker 5: Yes, some of them. 00:30:05 Speaker 1: Because when you look at you know, when you look at the end, you see the little casing dimples. 00:30:11 Speaker 5: Yep, that's from that being twisted. 00:30:12 Speaker 4: This is what This is what convinced me that this is a podcast. 00:30:17 Speaker 3: Like when you bite, when you bite into a hot dog and there's like a little skin hanging off. 00:30:23 Speaker 5: That's cross link protein on the surface of the hot dog. 00:30:25 Speaker 4: But it's no different materially than the rest of the filling. 00:30:28 Speaker 5: Correct would you call it cross link protein at the surface of the hot dog? Just on the surface. 00:30:35 Speaker 1: How do you get him out of his casing? 00:30:37 Speaker 5: So these are treated with easy pel So it's got plant based glesserin and things like that to make him peel easy. So the first time I went into a plant, it was the coolest thing I've ever seen. Hey, it was unbelievably clean. The ingredients that went into that emulse fire were not what I was expecting. 00:31:01 Speaker 1: You were expecting some Upton Sinclair stuff I was. 00:31:04 Speaker 5: I was, yeah, and it's not that at all. You know, I watched these butcher guys and when they're squaring up a rabbi, I'm just gonna square this up. That goes in the trim pile, and that goes that's bought by the hot dog manufacturers and things of that nature. So so yeah, the casing forms the hot dog, it hangs on a chain, it goes into the smokehouse. Huh, it's smoked. It's cooked to its final temperature. They control humidity, temperature all through that to get the characteristics they want. Then they cook hot smoke. So yeah, they're cooking somewhere around one hundred and one hundred and thirty degrees something like that. 00:31:50 Speaker 1: So they're cooking that son of a bitch in the smoker. 00:31:53 Speaker 5: You could take it out of the pack and eat a hot dog. It's fully cooking. 00:31:57 Speaker 1: Just walking in that big old room man to line that up here. 00:32:02 Speaker 5: The best hot dog I've ever had right out of the oven, right out of the manufacturing. 00:32:06 Speaker 1: I can. 00:32:07 Speaker 2: I can tell, man, because like my buddy, they milk cows and you drink them. You know, they put in that super chiller and you drink that milk right out of that chiller. I could picture getting a hot dog right out of that hot superpower man. 00:32:20 Speaker 5: Very good. And they killed the cook at the end of cold water. Then it goes into packaging, I mean, and and so in these plants, it comes in as lean and fat, two primary ingredients that are in there. Yeah, it goes through the process and it's coming out as packages ready to go to the store. 00:32:37 Speaker 2: How can there's still bent hot dogs in the because if it's draped over something like you know, you make a bra anything breakfast links, Like when I cook breakfast links in my lamb cased breakfast links and a cast iron skillet, I spoon them like you know, like you and your lady laying in bed at night. Right, they're all like because they all got a bow to them, right. Put a hot dog in a hot dog pack is straight as narrow. 00:33:02 Speaker 5: So when they're cooked, Yes, they're hanging it over our chain, but it's two hundred feet of those suckers twisted together. Got it, And so they're hanging vertically. 00:33:11 Speaker 1: And that weight is pulling them straight. 00:33:13 Speaker 5: That's right, that's right, got it. And then so in packaging, the casings stripped off. It's either a water jet or or a blade or whatever. You'll see most a lot of these cases have a black stripe on them. 00:33:25 Speaker 1: What do you mean the water jet? 00:33:27 Speaker 5: So it's thirty thousand psi water that you can't even see it. 00:33:34 Speaker 1: But how's it that obliterate the hot dog? 00:33:36 Speaker 5: Because it's controlled. Most of these are are slit and peeled. 00:33:42 Speaker 1: Okay, so you know you'll see I can visualize when when you. 00:33:45 Speaker 5: Cook a when you cook a hot dog, like get a skillet, sometimes you'll see a perfect straight line open up on it. 00:33:52 Speaker 1: He's telling me about that line. 00:33:53 Speaker 2: But I was lying and act like I knew about it. But when you're talking about the line, I don't know the line. 00:33:58 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you'll see it. I always thought it was like an indentation from it being vacuum sealed with other hot dogs. 00:34:05 Speaker 4: So this is what I'm talking This is great. 00:34:07 Speaker 1: So you're telling me you're. 00:34:08 Speaker 2: Cooking up a hot dog at home or on a stick over the fourth July party, and you're seeing a line sometimes sometimes, and that's from cutting that thing off. 00:34:18 Speaker 5: And and it's cut and peeled. The photo eyes and the plant will look for that blue or this black stripe to make sure it was peeled during the manufacturing process. And so the peeler is the coolest piece of Equiman in there. It looks like a machine gun with hot dogs coming out instead of ball. It's just, oh, if you. 00:34:40 Speaker 1: Could like have a gun like that, Yeah, come into a room. Everybody would be so happy in there. 00:34:46 Speaker 5: It's very cool. And then it goes in they get sorted and uh and packaged, yeah, vacuum sealed, and then off to your grocery store. 00:34:56 Speaker 1: You know, the the thing we were talking We were joking earlier about Upton and Claire and how clean it is in there. But like you know, like people say of hot dogs, right, the old classic like lips and a holes, Right, how much truth is there to that? Like what's going into a hot dog? Give me the worst case scenario? I mean, like like the worst case I mean, come on, that's an incredible, incredible Yeah, you like the pun. Oh you know that was a double whammie, the worst case with the accident. Sorry, go ahead, give me the like. And you know, I know you're in the industry man, you got it, you're a company man. But like, give me the. 00:35:39 Speaker 2: Worst like uh, like, give me an example, Like would people be pleasantly surprised if they saw what's in their hot dogs? 00:35:46 Speaker 1: Or would they be like, oh, it's worse than I imagined. 00:35:49 Speaker 5: No, that'd be pleasantly surprised. I mean, so the lean the lien is all from butcher trim. You know, if they're wanting to get the cost pointing down mm hmm for that two dollars pack of hot dogs, there'll be different protein sources. So they may put away protein or some some other oh is that right, Yeah, some other protein source to get to get the cost profile down. And and you know, and I had no idea. 00:36:21 Speaker 2: People will say stuff you drink when you drink like a or not the same. But like, if you're drinking like a protein replacement or like a replacement meal or a protein powder. 00:36:30 Speaker 5: Milk, protein plant protein. 00:36:31 Speaker 1: Soy pro, you can jam that and do a hot dog. 00:36:34 Speaker 5: You could in order to get a protein filler to get the price point down. And then and the key point is, you know, originally I said the consumer votes like they get the ultimate vote with their purchase. And so the consumer knows how much money I have my wallet and what's the thing look like on the shelf, and so if they have a certain amount of money in their wallet, they're gonna want a lower price point. And so you've you still have to make a profit, right, So there are ways to do that, protein with protein additions. Yeah, but I haven't seen lips and a holes on on any any shelf. 00:37:17 Speaker 1: Let me, let's do this. I believe you like answer this one totally honestly if you had, would you be able to tell me? 00:37:28 Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe them. 00:37:35 Speaker 1: It doesn't bother me. 00:37:36 Speaker 5: It doesn't bother me either, because if I. 00:37:38 Speaker 2: Went to a buddy's house and he made something and he's like, you'll never guess what I made that out of, you know, I'd be like, I'll ry it. 00:37:45 Speaker 5: Well, I mean, so there's a market for that stuff. Right. If I'm in Alabama and I'm going and we don't have the Canadian versus Michigan kind of competition you're talking about, if I roll into an Alabama gas station. 00:37:57 Speaker 1: Not even on the border, not on the board. 00:38:00 Speaker 5: I'm rolling through there, I'm gonna see the hot dog rollers, but right next to it, I'm gonna see a jar pickle picks feet, I'm gonna see a jar pickle pick snouts. I'm gonna like that. There's a market for that stuff in. 00:38:15 Speaker 2: It, And you think those snouts and those feet are not likely to be in those dogs. 00:38:23 Speaker 4: I think he knows that. 00:38:26 Speaker 5: Of the places I've been to, I haven't seen it. 00:38:29 Speaker 1: And if you did, you'd tell me. 00:38:30 Speaker 5: If I did, I tell you so I've been to you know, I've been to a lot of them. 00:38:39 Speaker 1: Ran, I know you're bursting with questions. I got in I one walk me through. It seems like they call out a beef hot dog, like it seems like if it's a beef hot dog, they want to tell you that it's a beef hot dog, right, And so they're sort of trying. They're like they're they're providing like it's juxtaposed to. 00:39:00 Speaker 5: What, Yeah, that so hot dogs are made out of beef, pork or chicken or combinations of the above. 00:39:09 Speaker 1: I didn't know there was a chicken hot dog. Yeah, really, But the guys making those aren't like chicken hot dogs, the chicken and dark like it seems like they're proud. 00:39:21 Speaker 4: Of a beef. Oh yeah, all beef. I mean that's like a branding thing. I think it's like. 00:39:27 Speaker 5: That it elicits I think incorrectly your quality or whatever. 00:39:33 Speaker 1: I mean. 00:39:33 Speaker 5: They are also religious pieces to it, where you've got to understand kosher. 00:39:39 Speaker 1: That's good, yeah, cosh root or what. So it's a whole is the whole wal Yeah, okay, all right. 00:39:47 Speaker 2: So you'd be like if you were going into an area where you had you had Muslims, yeah, yeah, Jews, you might see that there's a higher prevalence of just like labeled beef with. 00:40:01 Speaker 5: And it would have the stamp on there. So that's what they're all looking for, is the triangle k or the halal or. 00:40:05 Speaker 1: What God is God? So that that drives that. 00:40:08 Speaker 5: But it does it. 00:40:09 Speaker 1: Doesn't mean that if it doesn't say it, like if they're not touting what it is, it's likely because it's what. 00:40:19 Speaker 5: You know, it's a standard pork hot dog is what I would expect. I mean, pork is pork is the easiest uh protein source to make a make a hot dog. Emulsion out of very forgiving, very easy to make. So in the industry that there's a saying that says pork makes sausage and chicken makes money. That'd be another that'd be a good name for the podcast Problems for Deer makes for a big weekend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. So chicken has a really high water holding capacity, so you can you can put more water on the protein and sell more water. 00:41:00 Speaker 3: So we've thrown around the word emulsion, and I pretend like I know what we're talking about, but scientifically speaking, what are we like? Yeah, I know, I sort of know when I see it, But what's going on there? And then how does different proteins? How do the different proteins factor into that? Yea, because then you're talking about water content. 00:41:19 Speaker 5: So people hear the word emulsion and they think, oh, this is lab grown food. You know, it has this scientific key feel to it. You know, milk's and emulsion. There's all kinds of natural emulsions out there. 00:41:37 Speaker 1: How is milk and emulsion? 00:41:38 Speaker 5: What an emulsion is is a fat particle that's stabilized with a mulse fire around it. So there are stabilized fats inside of milk. 00:41:50 Speaker 1: That's an emulsion means. 00:41:53 Speaker 5: You know, so if I make salad dressing, you know, an emulsion is I'm taking two things that won't mix. I'm mixing them and stabilizing it. So salad dressing, oil and water, oil and vinegar, whatever it is, if I shake that up in thirty minutes, it's gonna be separated again. 00:42:09 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. 00:42:11 Speaker 5: An emulsion puts an emulsifier around those oil particles to stabilize it. 00:42:17 Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's we make our own dressing and we buy addressing like most American households. 00:42:24 Speaker 2: So when we make it, I have a little shaker, you can, right, yeah, shake it up. You're right, it's like perfect. 00:42:31 Speaker 1: But then you you know, when you go get it the next time, it's separated out right. 00:42:35 Speaker 2: But then when you buy whatever, who's the guy that the actor Paul? Yeah, you buy some Paul Newman, it doesn't separate. So what would I need to be doing at home to make mine like his? 00:42:50 Speaker 5: That'll be similar to what we're going to talk about. For a hot dog and massins, you got to pull it in a mulsifier around that oil particle to keep those oil particles from getting together in a glomerate. Okay, that's that's what happens. So I emulsions are again, they're natural. I've I've worked with emotion emulsions my entire career because I used to be in the chemical space. So we made lots of defoemers and things of that nature that are stable emulsions, and that's the key. And in a hot dog, the oil particle is a fat, and the emulsifier that we're gonna protect that fat from getting getting together is protein. 00:43:33 Speaker 1: Huh. So is it salad dressing. 00:43:36 Speaker 5: And salad dressing? 00:43:37 Speaker 1: You know? 00:43:37 Speaker 5: It may be. Uh, there are all kinds of emulsions, starches and things like that. Good that can they can stabilize them. 00:43:45 Speaker 1: But you could make one from the things you could buy at a grocery store. 00:43:48 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the key is that you've got to put tons of energy into it, So you gotta shake the Jesus out of that thing. And when they make it, most likely obviously they're not shaking individual jars at the Paul New Manufactory assoom. 00:44:05 Speaker 2: So what yeah, three guys, Yeah, they got like an industrial age. 00:44:10 Speaker 5: They've got a full on a mult fire pump. 00:44:12 Speaker 3: I was imagining guys on lunch break all going out for a smoke in their forms are. 00:44:16 Speaker 5: Just that's right. So there there's back pressure on that pump. They're gonna cycle it through that pump, you know, probably six seven, eight, nine times, get the particle size, the oil down, stabilize it, you know, the same deal and a hot dog, same process. 00:44:34 Speaker 1: So what do you grind at? 00:44:35 Speaker 2: Walk me through making a dog like you got your your lean meat yep, and you're grinding it to to. 00:44:42 Speaker 1: Like a liquid? 00:44:44 Speaker 5: Not really? Well, I mean I'm gonna grind it a help a lot more than I'm gonna grind ground beef. I'm gonna ground a paste, let's say, not a liquid. So I'm gonna grind it to probably a three to five millimeter plate something like that. Fine grind. But step one is protein extraction. So I have to extract the proteins out of that meat. 00:45:11 Speaker 1: Well, it is protein. What's left when you get the protein. 00:45:15 Speaker 5: So, but I've got to extract the individual pieces of protein. So protein is a polymer, right, It's a you know, it's a bunch of amino acids that are stacked out into a polymer chain. And so I need to unwind and extract those proteins so that it's ready to make an emulsion because it's yeah, it's a protein, but it's in the form of a muscle. So I've got to get it out of that form of a muscle, and I do that with salt. So that's that's why I argued that salt was the most important ingredient. There's salt flavor, salt drives protein extraction. So you know, again key components salt, lean, protein, fat, and water in the form of ice are traditionally it Because what I want to do is extract that protein, but I have to be very careful that I don't start to denature it because I wanted to denature in the oven. That's when I wanted to form into a gel and cook and solidify and have that texture that you want. You can't have it denature in the processing spot. So I'm going to add ice to keep the temperature down. 00:46:31 Speaker 1: Got got it? I see. 00:46:33 Speaker 5: So there's there's a what is it? I got to look at my notes. So there's a differential scanning calorimetry, colorimetry, calorimetry. That's a tough say that word five times DS. That's what I know it's it's a graph, if you will, of the denaturing process of a protein. So pork has this really wide denaturing curve kind of a low peak and comes off the other end really forgiving venison extremely narrow and extremely high peak. So what that means is if I let temperature get away from me and in the manufacturing process, it's going to be nature quick really. 00:47:21 Speaker 1: So that's why where's beef sit on that little scale. 00:47:25 Speaker 5: Harder than pork. So pork is the easiest. Beef is harder both because of the DC curve and then also just because the extract ability of the proteins. 00:47:38 Speaker 3: For for like someone just who knows these meats from cooking in a kitchen. Is that why like does that curve have to do with people saying like, don't over cook your venison. It's really easy to overcook your venison. Like that's is there is there, there's a piece of a relationship there. 00:47:55 Speaker 5: And you guys, we all know right it's it's there's very little or muscular lipids are fat. It's a highly active muscle that proteins are packed really tight. So that's what makes them hard to extract. 00:48:08 Speaker 4: Mm hm. 00:48:11 Speaker 5: So you know over cooking venison has more to do with you just lose any little bit of fat that was in there, and you're gonna make it really tough too. 00:48:22 Speaker 2: So do you I want to continue out with you multifying, but just on this subject, would you be able to make would you be able to take deer. 00:48:32 Speaker 1: Meat wild deer meat? 00:48:37 Speaker 2: Would you be able to take deer meat and make a dog that if I came in the gas station and grabbed it off the roller, I would just think I was having a roller dog? 00:48:45 Speaker 1: Or would I be like something's different. 00:48:48 Speaker 5: You know, it's gonna have venison flavor. Obviously it's gonna have a wild flavor. But outside of that, the texture, I think that I think we could get the texture and all of that stuff right. It'd be really. 00:49:01 Speaker 3: Hard, really. Yeah, there's there's science to this. 00:49:05 Speaker 5: This that the d s C is the biggest driver. There's also p h of the muscle itself. So Karen mentioned that I should listen to the The Red Cutter episode, and did. 00:49:20 Speaker 1: You ever hear that guy before? 00:49:21 Speaker 5: No, you did not talk about we would. Yeah, I mean, I it's intimidating. I feel like I'm the least intellectual of all the of all the guests you've had, but. 00:49:32 Speaker 1: No you no, okay, don't worry about that. 00:49:38 Speaker 5: All right. Yeah, it was interesting. So everything he was focusing on was about the tooth and chew of the meat making hot dogs. It's it's different. It's all about protein extraction. So he was talking about the DFD meat you know you got. You called it red cutter. He called it dark cutter. That stuff, it's really easy to extract proteins from it. So he may not like it, but I kind of do because it's a it's a it's easy to extract protein from a dark cutter. That being said, the flavor is different and all that kind of stuff. So and I'm just talking pure protein extraction. But you talk in that episode, you talk a little about pre and post rigor. It's easier to extract proteins to make a hot dog in pre rigor meat then it would be in a post rigor protein. You would never do that. And it has most of what it has to do with pH. So as a as a muscle riggers, the pH is going to drop. If that animal was in stress when it was killed, that's gonna have lactic acid building up. That's gonna make the pH drop and I can extract proteins better at a higher pH. So there are things you can chemically do, add phosphates, add some other stuff to get the proteins to extract. But that's all the stuff that you got against you. When you're trying to make a venison hot dog, it's gonna be low pH. It's got that real narrow band of the DSc curve film it can be done. 00:51:30 Speaker 1: Deer meat has a different pH. 00:51:34 Speaker 5: A wild killed deer would have a different pH. I think, so, I mean, unless, I mean, I think if I was picking the perfect animal, I would pick a young dough. I would shoot it in the head, and I would contemplate field dressing and making hot dogs out of it. 00:51:58 Speaker 1: That day right then in there, just get right to it. 00:52:04 Speaker 5: But but I mean, it's I mean, that's a lot of hot talks. 00:52:10 Speaker 1: You know, you just mentioned Rigorman. This has nothing to do what we're talking about. 00:52:15 Speaker 2: But I saw a new buddy mine yesterday and he was telling me that he he's a fireman, and he's telling me, weird, it's kind of hot, weird how this whole thing came up. But he's telling me they went to a nursing home one time and there was a guy and they had called about a guy that he was on a pacemaker and on some kind of other respirator or something. And they're like they're called about it that they couldn't tell what was going on with them. 00:52:51 Speaker 1: But he had a pulse hmm. 00:52:56 Speaker 2: But when he went he grabbed his arm went lifted up, and the guy was already in rigor with a pulse. Because because if I can't remember what he's explains people like some they had him on some sort of life support deal or something that was still registering mm hmm. And he's like, no, he's not with us anymore. Crazy That well, that is well, I wish I remember the story better. 00:53:21 Speaker 1: Back to hot but back to hot dogs. 00:53:27 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wish I remember what he told me better. I was driving, my kid was trying to get a hold of me. 00:53:32 Speaker 3: Where does the where does the water content come into play of these different meats as far as like their ability to emulsify. 00:53:43 Speaker 5: Uh, I'd say it's less about water holding capacity. I mean they've all got I'll have to look at look it up, but you know, sixty percent water or something something in that muscle chicken can hold more water right. Oftentimes a manufacturer likes that because they can sell more water and both in a chicken breast or or in a chicken hot dog. The more water that you put into the emulsion, you're stuffing a watery substance into cellul is casing, and that gets difficult to handle. You know. The more viscous the emulsion is. When you when you stuff it through the stuffing horn, I think the casing will take it. It'll twist more, you'll get good link sizes and all that good stuff. Yeah, so I would say that water holding and water content is less of a concern. It's more about you. Remember what I said. When you're making an emulsion, it's an oil particle surrounded by protein. You want you gotta know how much fats coming in with your trim, So how much fats already in your lean? How much fat am I adding that thirty percent fat that's in a hot dog, And that ratio needs to be right because you got too little protein. You're not going to completely cover that oild particle. You got too much protein and there's extra protein kind of swimming around. 00:55:16 Speaker 4: And yeah, this is what I remember from describing the. 00:55:19 Speaker 5: Challenges important process I mean, yeah, the the key steps and that I don't want to. I've seen some of the homemade hot dog recipes and stuff like that on there, and I think what's missing out there is that it's two distinct processes. Step one is I want to extract my proteins. So in my kitchen, I would do that in a different piece of equipment. I'm not going to do that in a food processor because that's going to heat it up and I'm going to start denaturing and that'll be a problem. 00:55:55 Speaker 1: Okay, what are you gonna do it in? 00:55:56 Speaker 5: I'd actually probably do it in a stand mixer with a paddle mm a two to three you know, plate grind, add my salt, add probably half my ice to keep the temperature down, and slowly extract the proteins and you'll know you're done when it stops being grainy and start it'll be extremely sticky mm hmm, so it'll stick to your hand. You can pull individual fibers, like if you pull it out like this, you'll see fibers. Kind of break man. 00:56:26 Speaker 1: I could picture what you're talking about, having made some dogs in my day. 00:56:30 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's that's what you're looking for. You're good to go. Your proteins are extracted. 00:56:36 Speaker 1: So you know what's done by that, you know. So it's a look thing, a looking. 00:56:41 Speaker 5: Look and feel thing. And I mean in the in the industrial world, it's a it's a recipe, like they know, I'm gonna put this much ice in at this time. They've got specialized equipment that's both there. They're chopper they call it. That's where you do the protein extraction and chopper and a multifier. It's all in the kind of the same piece of equipment. And then they're gonna ship that to the stuffing plant to stuff. 00:57:07 Speaker 1: When you when you go to put that, when you get that hot dog already and he's ready to go in one of these here, would you be able to pack it into a snowball? Or is it? Or is it a little runnier than that. 00:57:16 Speaker 5: It's a little runnier than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, but it's pasty. It's it, you know it Once you add the fat, it gets that white kind of creamy appearance. 00:57:32 Speaker 4: Right. 00:57:34 Speaker 5: My, I don't know when you want to get into it, but kind of my concept for a venison hot dog is uh, I think it's Hey, I'm using in my concept I was towing random before this. I'm using bear fat and the key thing is to understand what is that protein to fat content and and when I'm emulsifying it in the kitchen. Dude, I'm not running it through that food processor for more than two minutes. Kay, because of the temperature, because if I go too hot at the temperature's gonna get away from me. 00:58:18 Speaker 2: I got a question on the heat thing. I'm trying if this is related or not. You ever you ever smoked fish, smoke salmon, try out whatever you ever? Notice it really doesn't matter what kind of fish you're smoking. If you get it, if you get it too hot too fast during the smoking process, it puts off that white mm hmm. 00:58:39 Speaker 1: I don't know, foamy goo. You're melting fat and it's like, oh you you you overdid it, like too much heat too quick, right that that's what that is is melted fat. Okay? 00:58:51 Speaker 2: Is that the same as what you're talking about, So it's that's a different problem problem. 00:58:56 Speaker 5: This has more to do with taking off the dnateaturing process to form that protein gel that is a hot dog before it's in the oven. I needed to happen in the oven run the smoker god. 00:59:12 Speaker 3: So the the problem then if you if you get that heat going there, it's is it that it's not going to bind to the fat. 00:59:22 Speaker 1: Like like you said, there's two separate steps. 00:59:24 Speaker 3: There's one denaturing the protein and then distracting the protein, sorry, extracting the protein, and you do want to avoid denaturing it. And then two is the actual emulsifying process. 00:59:36 Speaker 5: Yeah. So I mean think of it as as that protein is gonna gel and firm up before you've made it into emulsion. So it's not individual pieces of protein to wrap around that fat. It's not available anymore because it's gelled up and solidified if you will. Yeah, And that's the multifying process is four eyes, lots of time to pre emulsified fat. So I want to beat up the fat so I get the size of fat particle that I want. I want one to ten microns or something like that, and then I'm gonna wrap that protein emulsion around it, or that protein sorry, extracted protein around it to make an emulsion. 01:00:23 Speaker 3: And that is from the food processor. That's where you're applying the energy to it. 01:00:28 Speaker 5: Serious serious energy. 01:00:30 Speaker 2: When someone gets blowney, that's multified. Brat is not a multified when you go and get lunch meat at a at a deli counter Albertson's Safe Way or whatever, and you get like a like a turkey lunch meat. Some of that's emulsified, but some of it's just turkey breast. Yeah, So like where else do people see a multifications? 01:00:56 Speaker 5: Hot dogs, blowney, mortidella, all those types of products go through in a multification step. I'd say deli meats are approaching it, but not necessarily. They're not necessarily all the way there. So to make a deli meat you wanna, you're gonna take pieces of you know, whatever meat you're wanting to make, we'll say turkey. I want to break down the surface of each one of those individual chunks using enzymes, salt things. So it's kind of like in a multifying step, but you're not a multifying it. Once you get the edges of that surface surface sticky, you're gonna press it and make and and it's gonna basically glue it all together. So it makes you know, you either do that in a round casing, which those over there that's blowny casing the red ones. 01:02:00 Speaker 1: How long is this? If me and Randall started walking apart a lot longer. 01:02:04 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a lot of blooney. 01:02:06 Speaker 5: It's a lot of boney. That's kind of a standard you know round deli meat casing. It's made out of plastic. It's got you know, some blooney's that plastic stays on. Some of it. They they leave it on for the consumer to peel off. So you got something to run in between your teeth, clean them up, and then and then some of them peel them off in the manufacturing process. But I'd say. 01:02:32 Speaker 1: Keep asking questions. I got. 01:02:33 Speaker 2: I got to see if I can get this. This relates. See if I get my wife to send me something. Yeah, I'm gonna show you something. 01:02:40 Speaker 5: It So, you know, a sandwich meat, a deli meat is not quite an emulsion. It's more of individually separated meat that's pressed and formed, and so we either leave it round and what they call it chubb. So you know, a deli chubb would just be a perfectly round clipped with like hog rings basically on. 01:03:02 Speaker 4: Is that a technical term? 01:03:04 Speaker 5: Yep. 01:03:04 Speaker 3: I always just call them loafs who described as loaf, but chub's much better. 01:03:10 Speaker 5: Chub. You can you can put them in a mold to make them square and you're seeing the square hams. 01:03:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, when you buy a little pack, when you when you buy a little pack for to take home to make sandwiches. 01:03:23 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's square. 01:03:24 Speaker 1: It's a very square piece of ham. 01:03:25 Speaker 5: So that starts off in a round form, and it's putting a mold when it's broken, when it's when it's uh cooked. And then some hams. Back in the nineties there were more of us. There's the D shaped ham. Oh yeah, it's flat on one side and kind of arc on the. 01:03:42 Speaker 1: You know what. 01:03:42 Speaker 2: You know what I wonder if the industry is still into because I still use it, that stretchy net Yep, you guys still use that stuff. 01:03:48 Speaker 5: We actually saw the so yeah, I didn't bring any but and and most of that. So it's a it's elastic netting. 01:03:56 Speaker 1: You buy a roll that last whole lifetime. 01:03:57 Speaker 5: And it's used to put just service characters on the whatever you want to do. 01:04:01 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you think that's how you guys think of it. 01:04:04 Speaker 5: That's what I think I would ask. 01:04:05 Speaker 2: But you know, I got one of those big stuffers that bought like a big giant cylinder and you you load that netting on the end of that tube. 01:04:14 Speaker 1: And you can take a. 01:04:15 Speaker 2: Duck or a pheasant or anything like that and cram it through there and it comes out wrapped up trust in that little net. 01:04:23 Speaker 5: It's like a Christmas Christmas tree. 01:04:25 Speaker 2: And then when you when but when you brine and smoke it or whatever, you know, I mean, if you smoke a duck or something, he goes like this, Yeah, well if you if you mesh him, he stays all like a little ball. 01:04:38 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the marks look cool. 01:04:41 Speaker 5: That does make some cool marks. Y. 01:04:42 Speaker 3: You were telling me when we talked on the phone about using cellulus products to impart flavor and color two. I think specifically like lunch meats and stuff. But in theory you could do that with a duck. 01:04:57 Speaker 5: Right good. 01:04:59 Speaker 4: Hey, yeah, kind of prints like explain that. 01:05:02 Speaker 5: So yeah, the the guy over here, that's that's smoke treated. So we have transfer case. So yeah. Actually, the guys they said, uh, I was getting the printed stuff. They we made that in our printer down to Mexico at our at our plant and he was sending those. I said, can you put some smoke stuff in there? And he goes, sure, you want me to do that? So I brought it and it sat and sat in my kitchen for a while. My wife looks the first time, what have you been cooking it here? It's like, yeah, it's my hot dog casing. 01:05:38 Speaker 1: So what's the electric blue one you got there? 01:05:41 Speaker 5: So that size is probably for a for like a cocktail weenie or yeah, it's eighteen nineteen milimeter they've got Why is it electric blue? It's electric blue because this customer has a visualization system that looks for that blue color. 01:06:00 Speaker 4: To make sure they got to make sure they got off interesting. 01:06:04 Speaker 5: Or most hot dog manufacturers have that looks for the black stripe. So they're looking for that black stripe. 01:06:12 Speaker 4: Is that that's automated like they're they're sorting. 01:06:15 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, just making sure that it's all it's all gone. 01:06:20 Speaker 1: God, yep. 01:06:22 Speaker 5: So you were asking about transfers, So we've got smoke transfer. Is if if I'm going to make a product, but I'm not going to run it through a smokehouse, but I wanted to have a smoke flavor, you'd buy a casing with smoke transfer. There are also color transfers. The biggest in the hot dog world is uh Is Dark Cherry for making the red hot dog. So they're big up in Massachusetts. 01:06:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, but what does that come from with call them like then, they used to call them red hots and stuff. 01:06:54 Speaker 5: There's a brand, but. 01:06:57 Speaker 1: That was just a branding thing. 01:06:59 Speaker 5: Yeah, I said, I mean, you're gonna add these dogs have probably a little bit of sodium nitrate in to give it that pink color. That's what does. That sodium nitrate also kills botulism and all the bad stuff. It's probably got some phosphate in it to help get the pH up pH discussion. I'll talk about that in my venison recipe. Yeah, it's a cultural thing. I can I can say that in the US, the majority of our dark cherry red casings, and and that that color does transfer from the casing to the hot dog. We also have caramel colors, mostly in plastic and fibrous that transfers a caramel color on the outside of the lunch meat. For example. You know you see that rind, some of that, You know a lot of that smoke, right, because it's a smoked ham and that color comes from smoke. But you know, I've said it a couple of times. The consumer votes, you know votes, and their vote is with their wallet in their eyes until they're hooked until they're hooked till they have a flavor of flavor hook And I want to see that kind of as a human being. I want to see a nice ring on the outside of my deli meat as it looks well put together. 01:08:21 Speaker 1: Right do you do you happen to know? In barbecue mm hmm. So they go like Texas barbecue whatever. 01:08:29 Speaker 2: People want to see that smoke ring, and then there's talk about how deeply penetrated that smoke ring is. 01:08:36 Speaker 1: What is happening? Like, what is that ring? That's why does it make that color? 01:08:41 Speaker 5: So it's it's quite very similar to how we make hot dog. Right we said it goes into the smokehouse and those surfaces it's myosin. So the protein, once you've extracted the protein out, it's in form of myosin. Heat will make miosin migrate to the surface and the smoke makes it crossing. So that's what makes the skin on a hot dog. That's what makes a smoke ring. My my argument is I want the biggest smoke ring I can I can get when I'm smoking a butt. 01:09:21 Speaker 1: Not a cigarette, but but like correct. 01:09:23 Speaker 5: Boston, but I'm from Alabama, that's what we call. Yeah, just a butt. 01:09:29 Speaker 1: No, you said it word, but you just said should we call it? 01:09:33 Speaker 5: Where in Alabama? 01:09:36 Speaker 1: Smoking a butt? 01:09:37 Speaker 5: My wife's gonna get onto me. She's gonna say I've been mumbling. So she's she's she's in she's in the bud. 01:09:43 Speaker 1: I'm trying to my wife. 01:09:45 Speaker 5: She's in your bed. So she's. 01:09:48 Speaker 1: Good. 01:09:49 Speaker 3: God. 01:09:49 Speaker 5: The the comments that I got prepared for this from her is don't mumble, don't use the word awesome, don't do this, don't do that. She gave me all kinds of good advoice. 01:09:58 Speaker 4: I've been listening for us and you haven't said it once until now. 01:10:02 Speaker 5: That's awesome. Thanks. 01:10:05 Speaker 2: So so that okay? That that ring? Tell me against I want to memorize this. Yeah, the ring from smoking is something is being drawn towards the. 01:10:16 Speaker 5: Being drawn drawn to the surface, okay, and then the smoke cross links it to make that that ring. 01:10:26 Speaker 1: Okay. So theoretically you could theoretically do it to the point where that was through and through it'll always diminish towards the center. 01:10:36 Speaker 5: I don't think he could because smoke penetration on a piece of meat. If you put a Boston butt on a smoker, yeah, you only need to leave it on there for the first hour. After that it's done. 01:10:50 Speaker 1: The smoke. 01:10:51 Speaker 5: It's not gonna absorb anymore smoke, it's not gonna get anymore. 01:10:56 Speaker 1: That's what It's just heat from there on. 01:10:57 Speaker 5: After that, you might as well throw it in the oven. Is that right? Hour two? Depending on your temperature? Right? No kidding, you know, And that's me as a Alabama barbecue god, not as a casing expert. 01:11:14 Speaker 1: You guys got that good white sauce though. 01:11:16 Speaker 5: Alabama white sauce pretty good. I ate at a place here in town last night and they had Alabama. 01:11:21 Speaker 1: White sauce right where you were. Did you get it on the chicken? 01:11:23 Speaker 5: I did? I got. I ended up getting the pulled port because I wanted to see if you guys got to figure it out. 01:11:28 Speaker 1: Does it start with a A. 01:11:29 Speaker 5: Started with a B. 01:11:33 Speaker 1: You weren't a works. 01:11:35 Speaker 5: It's a restaurant that family man I go to his al works. Dude, Okay, just I didn't know the town. It was close to the. 01:11:42 Speaker 1: Hotel booth family. I got a big booth going there. You're kind of in your own little zone, like in your own little private area. 01:11:53 Speaker 5: Yeah, I've got to be both My wife's four nine. So she's a little bitty and and it was fine. So I've got to be she's small. Yeah, she's small, and so we we have to be careful about where we eat because reach up to the counter. 01:12:13 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:12:15 Speaker 5: So when we go there, I said, do you want to see do you want to sit at a high high one of the hot tables or one of the regular table regular tables? Yeah, it's just because their feet dangle. 01:12:26 Speaker 4: I have the opposite problem. 01:12:28 Speaker 3: I want to find a place where the table isn't too close to the back of the booths. 01:12:32 Speaker 5: Why is that so. 01:12:32 Speaker 4: That I can fit in without my shirt hands? 01:12:35 Speaker 1: Oh, you don't like getting all in there and you're getting trying to climb in there? 01:12:40 Speaker 5: If you if you wouldn't eat eight hot dogs, Darren, we need to dog like so do I need to get you in like the big contest up in New York? 01:12:52 Speaker 1: Could you? 01:12:54 Speaker 5: Could you have that? 01:12:54 Speaker 1: Mean? The competitive hot dog contest? Are we really gonna. 01:12:57 Speaker 5: Joey Chestnut one? It was seventy point five high dogs? 01:13:00 Speaker 1: Last listen, man, that is you're not into that, are you? That is? That is just that is grotesque? 01:13:08 Speaker 5: Soaking them in water and just no, no, I would do it. 01:13:13 Speaker 3: I would do a contest where you're just eating normal hot dogs, like you like if you're. 01:13:18 Speaker 4: Eating them to enjoy them. 01:13:19 Speaker 1: If it's a hot dog enjoyment contest, and they could like hook dudes up to like a pleasure meter. Yeah yeah, and then who can score the highest pleasure? Yeah you like, yeah exactly, something like that, the pleasure measurer. Just try some way, Like. 01:13:37 Speaker 2: What what do you get when you go for a hike? You get a bunch of endorphins? I mean, are you getting endorphins? Are you getting like it's like because there's gotta be like a guilt. There's like get hit by guilt and doorphins, So like those the guilt and the endorphins are. 01:13:51 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's probably it's probably like the butt at some point, like the two meet and they just can't go any further. 01:13:59 Speaker 5: He'd measures all very flow and all. 01:14:01 Speaker 1: Like yeah exactly. But I don't know how do you measure guilt? 01:14:05 Speaker 4: You know? 01:14:05 Speaker 1: Because I want to see that in. 01:14:06 Speaker 5: The yeah, like the darting of the eyes you read my face? 01:14:10 Speaker 4: I think, how about do we? I mean, could you talk about. 01:14:15 Speaker 3: Baloney for just a second, because I've always like if you'd ask me when I was five years old, I could have told you, like, baloney and hot dogs are cousins. 01:14:26 Speaker 5: They're closer than cousins. 01:14:27 Speaker 3: Then that's what I want to Yeah, that's that's sort of what I'm here. Yeah, so so tell me like. 01:14:32 Speaker 5: I mean, maloney is an emulsion that's that's cooked in a in a casing. 01:14:37 Speaker 1: Right. Is it smoked? 01:14:39 Speaker 5: No? I don't know if there's smoking. I mean, I know I like frying bloneye yeah, and I like smoking. Have you seen the video of the guys getting a chob of baloney and smoking on a smoker? 01:14:51 Speaker 1: Give in the what? So what are you saying? 01:14:55 Speaker 4: Job? 01:14:56 Speaker 3: You missed this when you're when you're texting. That's the technical term for those loafs of meat you see in the deli counter as a job. 01:15:05 Speaker 5: But really yeah, so this. 01:15:08 Speaker 1: Is for loading chobs, right, is that what it is? 01:15:12 Speaker 5: Yeah? 01:15:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that, man. 01:15:16 Speaker 5: But yeah, I've seen some some cool videos of guys that buy the whole thing from the deli its smoke bolooney and smoke it and that looks outstanding. I've never done it. 01:15:26 Speaker 4: That's a great yeah. 01:15:29 Speaker 5: Yeah, but I mean it's the exact same process. Can extract proteins, control temperature, add fat, add your flavor profile. So that's the one pieces. There's very specific spices and things you use to get a Frank Furter. 01:15:45 Speaker 4: Profile, right, And you were mentioning some of those earlier. 01:15:49 Speaker 5: I think there's nutbag, coriander, there's some there's some things in a roller dog in a classic more New York style, Chicago style, Like when you think Frankfurter, that's what that's what's in there. Yeah, So if you took there's also garlic and onion and all the kind of standard. 01:16:10 Speaker 1: Spices in a normal dog. 01:16:13 Speaker 5: But every Yeah, and I would say that every single manufacturer, that's the secret sauce, right, that's their own. 01:16:24 Speaker 1: And this blowney question, could you mix like if you mix up a batch of like you mix up a hot dog emulsion, could you just decide I'm gonna throw it into a blowny casing and then be like it's blowny. 01:16:39 Speaker 5: Now different formulas? 01:16:41 Speaker 1: Yeah, got it. This is not the same, right. 01:16:44 Speaker 5: I would say the manufacturing process is the same, obviously, the stuffing equipment is much much larger than on a on a hot dog and a slower process. 01:16:57 Speaker 1: I want I want to touch on process chicken for a minute. Is that are you're familiar with? 01:17:01 Speaker 5: Mildly asking all I answer if I can. 01:17:04 Speaker 1: So people will point out. 01:17:07 Speaker 2: They'll they'll be like like, uh did certain major fast food chains will have their chicken products okay, chicken finger items, nuggets, whatever, okay, And. 01:17:24 Speaker 1: People will say, well, but that that was made from a. 01:17:28 Speaker 5: Slurry mechanically separated chicken. 01:17:31 Speaker 1: Is that? Yeah? What what is that? Like? Like, how do you do that? But then get it to be that it's like you can hold on to it and it's got a breading on it because it's not like a chunk of a chicken cut out and fried. 01:17:46 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I I'd say it's it's probably closer to the deli meat processing that we that we were talking about, where you free up proteins on the edge of that chicken with enzymes and other things, and then you press it into a mold and it basically glues it all together. You know, you can you can look at a sandwich mean and see does it have fat veining in it? And does it not? And if it's got fat and fat maanning, it's a whole muscle cut right just cut right off, or if it doesn't, it was it went through some level of processing. But again, I think the thing I'm trying to convey is that the processing it's not scary, it's not you know, it's not this conglomerate of stuff we're sweeping off the floor, you know. I mean, I saw you see in front of every one of these places FDA parking, And I asked one of the guys, I said, how how often these guys in? Said once or twice a day? Like every day? Yeah, yeah, every shift. So they're coming in to do their checks and all that kind of stuff, and it's it's a clean process. 01:18:54 Speaker 1: And falls under FDA. It's not us DA, right, got it, because like butchering is USDA, but or like you know, like a USDA and spectator. 01:19:05 Speaker 5: I'm not. I don't know a whole lot about the certifications and all that. That was just a question. I asked, how from these guys in they're basically checking temperatures and conditions and all that kind of stuff. Yep, yeah, I mean. And so to call that those fast food chain chicken processing a slurry, I don't know that I would call it that. 01:19:25 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's meant to dog on it. That's meant to make it look bad. 01:19:28 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think it's it's potentially there's a range, right, there's a whole muscle cut that I'm just slicing off the bird. M Then there's I'm I'm making sure I'm using whole use of the animal. So I'm gonna combine the trimmings to deli meat, or if you start migrating into the emulsion space, I'm going to make an emulsion and cook it. 01:19:55 Speaker 4: Yeah. 01:19:56 Speaker 3: It's the same as like if you had a when you grind your deer, when you grind all your you know, off cuts, whatever, the grind pile. 01:20:05 Speaker 4: Some people like that. You know that burger eating came. 01:20:08 Speaker 3: From the deer's all different parts of the deer that was never on the deer in that form, right, It's just a difference. 01:20:14 Speaker 5: Complete use of the animal. 01:20:16 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:20:18 Speaker 5: Yeah. My father in law constantly says, well, you know what the most valuable weight of a chicken is, what's the most valuable thing on a chicken? 01:20:25 Speaker 1: By weight? 01:20:27 Speaker 5: Because he says this, I've heard it three hundred thousand times from him. 01:20:31 Speaker 1: By weight by weight? Liver feathers, Is that right? 01:20:38 Speaker 5: Yeah? Because they're extremely light, you know, and they're they're highly valuable. They make feedstock, proteins and all kinds of Yeah, man, you know they stuff them in pillows and whatnot. 01:20:52 Speaker 2: You know what's crazy is on that subject, I can't remember if I sent this to you, is these archaeologists have developed this technique now where they can go look at h ancient grave sites okay where you just now you you dig it up and you think it was just bones. They've developed these techniques where they can identify down to genus and family generally what feathers we're in that grave totally. 01:21:27 Speaker 1: You'd never discern it. 01:21:28 Speaker 2: The human eye would never be able to discern it, like you digging ye within the within the soil, and they can there there's this whole thing, these these five thousand year old burial sites in Sweden and then amount just the thing we would never known about these people is that that just that must have been like elaborate headdresses, capes and things out of feathers. Where there's these burials that they got a half dozen different they're finding that they're buried with a half dozen different kinds. 01:21:59 Speaker 1: Of space hawk, oh, will grouse, water fowl, wow, all in these like feathers in these in these sights the previous people thought of as just bones. 01:22:14 Speaker 2: So like when you look at the when you look at archaeology, you often see that they'll like, let's say this whole room is an archaeological site. Some dude might come in and do one square meter, but then he's like you leave the rest, Like that's why. 01:22:29 Speaker 5: Hmm. So you've got something because sometimes. 01:22:32 Speaker 2: Some dude's like, no, man, I could take that dirt and tell you what he was buried, like what he was wearing when he was buried, you know. So you like that that level of restraint like lead you know, like leave it because dudes in the future will be able to do amazing, you know, in ways you can't imagine, you know what I mean. But just thinking about that what made me think of that? As you're saying that they that that that those feathers are utilized. 01:22:55 Speaker 5: That's the goal. Everything's utilized. But yeah, that's that's absolutely And using the technology that you have to do to figure out the DNA, I guess. 01:23:04 Speaker 1: And they and they look at a lot of these people are laid on their side and they can look at where so like you know, they'll find that there's a lot of stuff around the shoulder area, there's stuff around the head area, there's stuff on the elbow area, you know where they had adornment, feather adornment on them. 01:23:22 Speaker 5: And I think it's like they died and this was the burial. 01:23:25 Speaker 1: Yeah, ceremonial berriers, ceremonial burials. Yeah. How much how much have you dealt with normal casings, natural. 01:23:34 Speaker 5: Case natural casings? You know, a decent amount. I mean, so we don't we don't supply them. So the natural casings are in the form of hog, sheep or collagen. 01:23:43 Speaker 2: Yep, we'll talk about hog hog casinges. One time we took a wild hog. We're hunting down in Florida. I took a wild hog and I got out. I don't know, man like, you could have stretched it from me to that wall over there, I. 01:23:56 Speaker 1: Guess from one from one of these walls. The other wall wasn't that long. Probably now I'm lying, it was half that distance, Okay. 01:24:07 Speaker 2: Inverted, soaked it in vinegar, soaked it in a mild vinegar solution, water and vinegar, just loosen it up. 01:24:13 Speaker 1: Inverted the whole thing because it's all fatty on the inside. And then we just very gently scraped it and scraped it and scraped it until we had like what you would buy when you bought natural casings and then made Brits out of it. It was funny about it. It was the toughest, like, I don't know where we went wrong. 01:24:36 Speaker 5: Did you salt it? So that's part of the process. 01:24:40 Speaker 1: It was you bit that broad dude. You were fighting that brot, trying to get your bite off. 01:24:45 Speaker 2: And I was like, man, there's something we didn't do, you know, I mean, there's something we did, like oversight we made you know. 01:24:49 Speaker 5: Sure. Yeah. The guy that founded our company, his uncle ran a natural casing company, okay, and it was called Oppenheimer Casings, I think, and they he went. 01:25:02 Speaker 1: Like a whole nuclear deal here. 01:25:03 Speaker 5: So that's what I originally thought, because he originally sold some of his land to the U to the U. S. Government some sort of nuclear you know. It was all around that same time. I said, I said, is this the Oppenheimer Like Oppenheimer? No, no different, open man, So I'll take it. So he he went to Europe saw this this viscus process. Hey, I think we can make inedible hot dog casings and his uncle said, no, we're we're in the natural casing business, not going to diverse fy And he said, okay, I will, And so he left start his own company. I mean that the guts that it would have to take to leave the family business good. 01:25:50 Speaker 1: I don't think I'll call it filled and catch it. 01:25:52 Speaker 5: It was good that. And so then he starts a company called it vis King, Vis King K I n G the vis for visc, the vis Coast process. This thing regenerated cellulos King. I'm not sure why that the first brand name, these these casings are. We still carry the same brand called No Jacks, So you got Kings and Jacks, so that there's rumors going around. Here's a big card guy, you know. And and so then he decided to different you know, he was all about expanding the business, going in new, different areas. So he took us to plastics and the original brand, so you got Kings. Jack's was Vis Queen. 01:26:42 Speaker 1: Oh huh. 01:26:43 Speaker 5: And I still call plastic sheets vis Queen, sure like I still call it that. Yeah, I had no idea why he worked for this company. So it is vis King and this queen, which event we sold off the Vis Queen. 01:26:57 Speaker 1: Yeah, like it's an entry level ground cloth when you're camping ground club. 01:27:04 Speaker 5: I still call it that. So that's where it came from. It was that plastic films, you know, And so he kind of came in at the right time. So it was the twenties. He's coming with a new technology to make making sausages lower cost for the consumer. 01:27:21 Speaker 1: Got it because the casing, the natural casing was expensive. 01:27:24 Speaker 5: Was more expensive then the Great Depression hits and every single family's got beans and franks on their dinner table, you know, during the depression. And it was just starting a business. I've tried it, You've you've done it. It's hard and it's all about timing. Like this guy had the right idea at the right time to revolutionize the hot dog industry because there was no skinless hot dog. 01:27:51 Speaker 1: Untelli intentedies and that was around what year. 01:27:53 Speaker 5: Nineteen twenty eight I think, and then when he they come but he invented the shearing process, which is actually a term that we stole from from this seeming industry. There's a shearing stitch bunches fabric together. And that's what he saw is when he go to a butcher, they were waddening the casing up on the horn yep, to to make sausages, Like why don't we do that for him? And so he invented And there's a lot of science that goes into how you make that, like how it's twisted so when you share it, it's not just wadden it up on itself, right, it's twisted and shoved and twisted and shoved to get the folds and the right so that you can get the maximum mount stuff on that. 01:28:42 Speaker 1: Huh. 01:28:42 Speaker 5: So there's a lot of a lot of science to it. So it's pretty cool. 01:28:46 Speaker 2: Now where do you see it going, Like with people kind of starting to trip out about were people starting to trip out about plastic and ingesting plastic and plastic and food and stuff. 01:28:56 Speaker 1: Do you picture there'd be people moving away from that. 01:28:58 Speaker 5: I you know it's possible. So this to cell us it's not. But but we do sell plastic casing the ones I got. I think that when you go to. 01:29:06 Speaker 2: Any deli and go to any deli in the world, not in the world, go to any deli in this country, man, and you go to the deli counters wrap meat. 01:29:13 Speaker 5: It's a shrink wrap. I mean. So the one piece on why you would use a plastic casing is it's a it's non permeable, and so it adds perfect protection to whatever's inside it. So so what are the You got to weigh the pros and cons? Do I want I want to watch a bacteria make it its way into my food product? Or do I want plastic? 01:29:39 Speaker 1: Is that kind of that's kind of the selling point on that. 01:29:42 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's a non it's a non permeable barrier. And I mean those things are used to package pet food. You know, you see the new fresh fresh versions of pet pet products that are in the. 01:29:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting, man, I never thought of it, like the trade off on it that it is that it's like protect acting stuff getting in it. I mean it's obvious, but I just hadn't really putting. 01:30:04 Speaker 5: I think that. I think the big the big piece is you just got to make sure that how does it peel? Do you get it all off? What is that? I mean? I I believe me, I get it. I'm microwave. I used to microwave stuff in those plastic containers and tell my wife started yelling at me, Right, I get it. When he store spaghetti sauce and a plastic container, it's stayed red for the rest of its life. 01:30:28 Speaker 1: See this is the deal, Like I don't really know, Like I don't know, and we'll get We'll get all kinds of emails from people in the plastics industry when I say this, but I don't really know, but I might telling My kids would laughing about like when my dad was in the army, they'd give you your c rash and came with three cigarettes. Okay, So I'm always telling them, like. 01:30:46 Speaker 2: They'll come home and they'll be like, can you believe people used to do X, Y or Z? 01:30:51 Speaker 1: You know? Do they used to bleed? 01:30:53 Speaker 2: Like the doctors would bleed you with leeches to try to cure you of whatever. They will always have a laugh, and I'm saying, but I said, you know, I don't know what they are. 01:31:03 Speaker 1: We're doing all kinds of things right now, Like this doesn't end. We're doing all kinds of things right now. 01:31:09 Speaker 2: That in fifty years seventy five years, people will say, can you believe they. 01:31:16 Speaker 5: Were using radiation to treat cancer? 01:31:19 Speaker 1: Yeah? 01:31:19 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it'd be like, I don't know, I don't know, And I'm saying I don't know that it'll be this or not. But they might say, can you believe those people were putting leftover food and tupperware containers of X, Y and Z model and putting it in a microwave and then eating the hot contents. 01:31:41 Speaker 1: I don't know that that's it, but there's some thing. 01:31:44 Speaker 2: And so I'm like, so a good if I was to give them a suggestion, I was like, if you can afford to not do things that feel to you like, maybe it's gonna be one of those kind of things, you know, I know, but I'm like, it won't be in the future that they're saying. 01:32:00 Speaker 1: Can you believe they were eating deer, meating garden vegetables. It's just like, not gonna be that won't be it, right, It'll be some different things. 01:32:10 Speaker 5: Yeah, And I I the way I look at it is, you know, I know how I behave at home, but I also know how lots of other people behave. Like if I look at a river and see all the plastic junk floating in a river, and that eventually gets the water plant, eventually makes it through a pump, eventually gets ground up. You know. So if I get microplastics in my blood, is it is it because of the way I mark away from my leftovers or is it because some guy kept throwing plastic water bottles under the. 01:32:46 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. I had thereon Nils had a conversation with someone there asked me if, like, Great Lakes fish are like really safe to eat because of the heavy metals, right, And I'm like, man, when you die, it won't because you're eating Great Lakes fish. It's something different. It gets you, you know. 01:33:05 Speaker 5: It's it's mercury down and where I live. 01:33:07 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's it's a super fair point. You can't head it off. 01:33:14 Speaker 5: Yeah. 01:33:14 Speaker 3: One one question I had earlier you mentioned the cost thing and the great depression. You'd send me an email and I showed this to Steve with some early ads for hot dogs. 01:33:26 Speaker 4: And one of them was some kid. 01:33:29 Speaker 3: These two kids eating lunch together and one guy, one kid's got two hot dogs and the other guy's got one. And he says, he says, your mom gives you two, and the kid goes, yeah, they're caseless. And we sat there and were puzzling Overlook, what do you think that allows him to eat too? 01:33:49 Speaker 4: Remember this? 01:33:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the other being a tight ass or something. 01:33:52 Speaker 3: Yeah, So we were like, maybe they're suspicious of the casing or you know, like what he means it's cheap so he can get two hot dogs. 01:34:01 Speaker 5: That's the key. Yeah, consumer votes with those wallet and with his eyeballs. 01:34:06 Speaker 3: Yeah, i'd been I'd been meaning to ask you about that, and it clicked for me when you're talking about the Great Depression. 01:34:10 Speaker 5: One of those ads or just so hilarious. Oh yeah, like you know, it's it's a similar thing. We look back at our advertising back then. 01:34:19 Speaker 1: It was there's an ammal ad we used to pass around. There's an ammal ad where it's a dude doing a grip and grin with a mountain gorilla. 01:34:29 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, here's there. It is your mom, let's eat. 01:34:34 Speaker 1: How come your mom let's eat two wieners, no skins. 01:34:41 Speaker 5: Bill's a lucky guy. 01:34:42 Speaker 1: Yeah, like mom, I'm smart, you know, like Randall has like positive thoughts about dogs. I have very positive thoughts about dogs. 01:34:51 Speaker 5: You know, about the hot dog? 01:34:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, like yeah, like like I look, I see a hot dog and it get I get happy. When I tell a hot dog story. It's a positive story. You know. 01:35:02 Speaker 2: Now my wife she's got bad hot dog stories because you know, like you know, when you're a kid at a certain age, and it's kind of like fifth grade, sixth grade, you become It's also you get introduced to the idea of like that there's kids that get everything they want, and there's kids that don't get everything they want. So it'd be that, like there's kids like Randall's got nikes, So in my school, he would have been a snob, right right, and he would bully kids. 01:35:29 Speaker 1: Whose mom wouldn't get him nikes, right right. This is like a thing. 01:35:35 Speaker 2: So I thought I was poor, but my mom and dad just wouldn't waste money. They were actually quite well off relative like we were like middle class people, and a lot of a lot of our community was not middle class. But I thought we were poor because I couldn't get anything cool. Now, my wife would have to get sent to school. You remember those like thermost containers. Sure, her mom would drop oil water. Her mom would put boiling water in one of those thermost containers and jam a couple of dogs down in there and send her to. 01:36:06 Speaker 1: School with that for her lunch. 01:36:08 Speaker 2: So at lunchtime, all these other kids are eating like Grido's or whatever they're like, Remember those crackers came out and you get the cheese and it comes with a little knife and all that. Yeah, they'd have all that garbage and she'd have to crack open that thermis and pull out those lukewarm dogs and eat everywhere. 01:36:21 Speaker 4: Watch the steam just go. 01:36:24 Speaker 1: And her My dogs are a bummer. 01:36:27 Speaker 2: It reminds her of like being at the lunch room eating those lukewarm dogs when everybody else is eating cool stuff. 01:36:34 Speaker 5: She's right, She's not the only one that got sent to the cafeteria with a thermist with hot dogs in it. 01:36:40 Speaker 1: So that was the thing. 01:36:46 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's pre microwave, right, you gotta have something to keep it warm. I got sent to school with a thermos flat dogs. 01:36:53 Speaker 1: She sees a dog, when she sees a roller dog, she's bummed. 01:36:59 Speaker 2: Okay, she needs to go to therapy about it. Yeah, because the other day we were at my daughter's volleyball tournament. They had a concession stand up there. I went up there. She got like a diet pepsy or something dumb like that, and I got two dogs. 01:37:11 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, she even asked me for biteing my dogs. 01:37:15 Speaker 5: I don't think I've ever been unhappy eating a hot dog, Like it's always a good thing. Like you're over a campfire, you're at a ball game, you're doing normally doing something fun. 01:37:25 Speaker 4: No, that's how I feel about it. 01:37:27 Speaker 1: Fueling up the truck. 01:37:28 Speaker 3: Yeah, like a sunshine a hot dog, a beer and a hot dog, like camp fire hot dog. It's just something in my brain where it's this positive association and I'm like, life is good. 01:37:43 Speaker 1: Yeah, no one's ever kicking the shit out of you when you're having a hot dog. 01:37:46 Speaker 5: Yeah. 01:37:49 Speaker 4: It takes me back to the trenches. 01:37:54 Speaker 1: All right, So tell us a little here. We've been teasing it. Tell us tell us the ultimate like like walk listeners through. 01:38:04 Speaker 2: You know what we should do. Maybe we should launch it right now if people are interested. If anyone out there wants to try to send in. 01:38:13 Speaker 1: A deer meat roller dog, please please them. You know I'm gonna do it. 01:38:19 Speaker 2: I don't think that people that have poison and stuff, I don't think they use it like that. Yeah, I don't think they're gonna send us the poison like dudes with poison deliberately. 01:38:29 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I could be like a. 01:38:33 Speaker 2: Bacon a roller dog and then I'm gonna put my my poison into it and send it. 01:38:37 Speaker 3: He's got all his charts on the wall of how he's finally gonna get Steve Ranella. 01:38:41 Speaker 4: And then he hears this on the. 01:38:42 Speaker 3: Podcast, he goes, ah, I'm just poison the dogs. 01:38:45 Speaker 2: All I got to now is figure out how to make a great hot dog, and then I just put my poison in there and I'll kill him. 01:38:50 Speaker 1: So I just don't see that being a risk. 01:38:52 Speaker 2: So if people want to listen and make a great roller dog out of deer meat, but then you can't trick us and send us one made out of poison. 01:39:02 Speaker 3: Yeah, talk about when you when you describe the hot dog, this theory of a venison hot dog, can you go back over just briefly, like the challenges and how you and the steps that you're taking here to address those challenges. 01:39:19 Speaker 5: So the steps are like that I can't see anything. I can't see anything without them. Steps are a protein extraction that e multification, temperature control than smoking. Right, That's how every hot dogs made you know, So there is there's a hot dog recipe on on your website for for for a red snapper venison hot dog. Thanks for ving that, Mike Randall, so I live. 01:39:52 Speaker 1: Would you think that recipe? 01:39:54 Speaker 5: I thought it was good. I think it's got. 01:39:56 Speaker 1: Don't choose your words carefully here. 01:39:58 Speaker 5: It's got problems. 01:40:00 Speaker 1: Okay, that's what I'm trying to get to. 01:40:01 Speaker 5: He uh, I wear it eight and a half in my takova, so I'll point out all the mistakes eight and a half. Uh. So, basically he's shoving together all the ingredients for emulsion. He rightfully points out, I got a control temperature, so he like prefridge the meat and all this kind of stuff. But he made the emulsion and then put it in in a freezer. So he's like making an emulsion and then put it in the refrigerator for a day, hoping that the proteins extract, hoping and praying it did not. So in my mind, let's let's extract the proteins right, Let's use salt, let's use ice, Let's do it in a stand mixer, extract the protein's right until it's super tacky, and then make a hot dog. And I live on the Gulf Coast of Alabama and calling it a red snapper of venison hot dog. I said that to my son, He's like, that sounds disgusting. It's a fish shoved. It doesn't sound very good. So yeah, I mean, if I was so what I wanted to do was investigate and and the one thing he does in that recipe as he supplements pork trim and pork pork fat as his fat source. And I'm I'm saying, that's cheating. That's not what we're wanting to do. 01:41:35 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so he's trying to make a hot dog. 01:41:41 Speaker 5: I looked through all the fat options out there. Deer fat, Hey, there's not enough of it. It's waxy, it's got a super high melting point. It's out the door wild pig fat. Mm hmm. Maybe, I mean it's pork right, you want to it off the back, not off some of the more active areas. The more I looked at it, I think bear fat is the preferred fat for making a pure wild hot dog really because of its melting point and it behaves more like pork, and I think it'd be a cool flavor. 01:42:20 Speaker 1: And not rendered cube like cube fat. 01:42:23 Speaker 5: Yeh yeh. 01:42:24 Speaker 1: We had a couple of jars rendered right there, but yeah, not rendered. 01:42:28 Speaker 5: So I mean, ultimately, when you're making a hot dog, you're trying to get that fat particle to one to ten microns, so it could just spin. I don't think you'd want to spin up rendered fat. I think you're going to want to take cube cue cube fat. I want to pre blend the fat, extract the protein separately, then put them together A couple other work. 01:42:56 Speaker 1: What would be the ratio there? 01:42:59 Speaker 5: So I would use sixty five to seventy percent venison lean venison eighteen to twenty two percent bear fat, very specific number. I think that's where that's the range you're gon gonna be like twenty percent. The biggest balance of the formula would be ice. So you're talking ten twelve, fifteen percent ice. That's the other thing. 01:43:27 Speaker 1: What form shaved. 01:43:29 Speaker 5: I it's gonna get shaved in the emulsifying process, you know, A you it's it's all got to be gone before you start stuffing. It all needs to be water before you start stuff ice crystals. There's there's it's too dangerous. There's there's things like listeria and things that can that can happen when you've got crystallized ice in a in a processed meat. 01:43:52 Speaker 1: Is that right? 01:43:53 Speaker 5: Yeah, So that's that's one thing you've gotta got your make sure it's all melted out. But you know he mentioned using cold water. Okay, let's take it one step further and use ice. It's the coldest water you can get, right. I think there's some other cool stuff we could add, mushroom powder, citrus fiber, mushroom powder. So mushroom powder will, according my sophisticated research, we'll give a better gail network because what happens with venison is it's a real crumbly gail network. It's gonna want to crumble. If I overcooked my smoke sausage, it gets crumbly, and mushroom powder will help that, and it adds kind of a cool flavor. Citrus fiber is gonna help with emulsion, stability, viscosity, water binding. There's some some all kinds of cool things that that would do. I was trying to maintain, like cure to the roots of what we're trying to accomplish here. Yeah, you know, we could add and I think with Finnis and we may have to add some phosphates to help get the pH down. We talked about that when the deers, especially if it was had lots of lactic acid during death. So you know, if you're my buddy Joe and every deer you shoot runs for three hundred yards, you know they normally drop the style Joe style like. 01:45:33 Speaker 1: The Neighbors Place. Yeah, long dramatic blood trail. 01:45:37 Speaker 5: That's right. 01:45:38 Speaker 1: He likes those emotional Yes. 01:45:41 Speaker 5: I'm going to use one hundred and thirty grand bullets so it'll run even further. I stick with the one eighty. 01:45:47 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:45:48 Speaker 5: Anyway, he's gonna give me a grief for that. Yeah, I wanted to die quick. So but but I can use phosphates to get that pH up to help with the extraction process. And I mean you're when you're getting smoked sausage from a butcher, if you're not doing it yourself, there's probably some phosphate in there. There's probably some sodium nitrate in there to get that cool pink color. 01:46:10 Speaker 1: What form does that phosphate come in when you buy it? 01:46:12 Speaker 5: Uh? I had it written down, I can't remember off the top of my head. 01:46:16 Speaker 1: And what what is it? What are they drawing it from? 01:46:17 Speaker 5: I think it's pyrophosphate. I think it's hexa meta phosphate. You mean, what's the feedstock for it? 01:46:26 Speaker 1: What is it? What is it at? What is it as the form that like the Earth produces it or whatever? 01:46:32 Speaker 5: Uh so the the earth produces you know, it's it's mineral form. Right, there's all kinds of I know a little bit about phosphate manufacturer that it's it's it's very energy heavy. Most of it's done outside the US and phosphate furnaces for taking yellow phosphate and making it into products that we use like t sp and all. 01:47:02 Speaker 1: So it's the same phosphate that would be uh like in fireworks or whatever. 01:47:07 Speaker 5: Sure, Okay, it's the phosphates phosphate, Yeah, I think I think. 01:47:12 Speaker 1: Uh, gun powders phosphate. 01:47:16 Speaker 5: Yep, and or yeah, nitrocellulose and you know stuff and gunpowder. The first company I worked for into the paper industry, it was a company called Hercules. It was known as Hercules Powder Company. You've probably seen the old ads for Hercules Powder Company had a guy with a club and but they made gunpowder out of nitrocellulose they'd get out of tree stumps and eventually that turned into paper chemicals. They were a DuPont child. There's a bunch of them out there, companies that spun off from DuPont. 01:47:52 Speaker 3: Ye would you you mentioned when we were talking on the phone at it like having as you talked about it earlier, having to supplement with like a wave protein potentially, Is that something that you thought more about that? 01:48:08 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think we just got to do the math. Yeah, I mean it's all about that's simple, it's I mean, and that's what all these folks do, is they do the math, like how much lean protein do I have? How much of that is extractable protein? You know, it'll be trial and error, Like you guys come to our food lab and we can trial and error it, right, because I got to know how much of that specific there's there's not venison hot dogs flying off the shelves, right not, They're not everywhere. So we're gonna have to learn about how much of the protein can I extract? And therefore, what's my protein to fat ratio? Because that's the secret sauce, right right, I want to have again. An emulsion is an oil particle that's surrounded with some sort of stabilizer, and the stabilizer in a hot dog emulsion is meat protein m H, and basically that keeps the oil particles repelling each other. There's some other cool stuff we can do, like partially denaturing. It allows the protein to unfold. It gets a hydrophilic and a hydrophobic tail. So hydrophilic loves water, so it points away from the fat. Hydrophobic loves oil, so it's gonna point in towards the fat, and it makes a more stable emulsion. Really. Yeah, there's you can go deep and hot. 01:49:33 Speaker 4: When people say hot dogs are low brow, it's high brow. 01:49:36 Speaker 5: Man. There's a lot of science. I mean that. Yeah, I mean so, like one of our one of our sales people has a meat science degree. So it's it's uh some serious stuff. 01:49:52 Speaker 2: Okay, on that on that dog there that you're working up the venison dog. Tell me the part where we start flavoring it, like the seasoning. 01:50:02 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I so, the the traditional frankfurter flavors we talked about them. It's nutmeg, coriander, some of those. The other ones are kind of your standard seasonings that as wild game cooks, we put in a lot of stuff like onion salt, onion powder, garlic, those those types of flavors. You know, it all depends on what you want. There's there's black pepper. Yeah, it's what are you shooting for? You? 01:50:35 Speaker 2: So like those boys at Oscar Meyer, they have their own seasoning blend m and no one knows. 01:50:41 Speaker 5: I don't know it. I wouldn't want to know it. Then they'd have to kill me. That's right. 01:50:52 Speaker 1: I want so bad. She's not writing me bad. Yeah, wife made these cookies that it's like it looks like a giant sausage, but it's a cookie. When you slice it, it's like you're slice and more to Deella. 01:51:05 Speaker 5: And it's got the white well, it's probably the white chucolate. 01:51:08 Speaker 1: White everything in there. Dude, you would think like from across the room, you'd swear you're looking at it sliced up more to Della sausage. But those cookies. 01:51:16 Speaker 2: Kids didn't like them. But I was trying to get her to send me a picture of it. 01:51:20 Speaker 5: But they didn't like the flavor. They didn't like the presentation. 01:51:24 Speaker 2: No, they didn't care for the cookie. They didn't get the joke. They didn't get the joke. Joke was lost on them. They were just rating it as a cookie, and as a cookie, they thought it scored low. 01:51:35 Speaker 5: Did you used to have olive loaf you're banging around. That's another one of those. Probably fits in the emulsion category. 01:51:43 Speaker 1: You know what my old man was big into is uh And this is definitely an emulsion. Is My old man was big and liver Worst. Yeah, he'd buy I believe he'd buy oscar Meyer Liverworst that had the yellow wrap on it, right. 01:51:58 Speaker 5: Had the plastics on it. 01:52:00 Speaker 1: Gaming plastic yellow rap. You get mad if you got into it. That was his sand O man, that onion on Rye bread. 01:52:09 Speaker 5: And there's one company that I'll mention. I said, I wasn't going to come in and mention any brands, but I'm gonna mention it because it intrigues me and I want to try it really bad. And I wonder what took so long? But my social media has been covered up with spam hot dogs. So so Spam's coming in a hormlles coming out with a spam hot dog. Interesting and I gotta try that. That sounds pretty cool, real curious. Yeah right? 01:52:42 Speaker 1: That it? 01:52:43 Speaker 5: What else? 01:52:44 Speaker 2: Well, you're gonna when someone tries to walk someone through the smoking process. 01:52:49 Speaker 5: Yeah, so I think with Venison, we're gonna have to take the smoking process very slow because that DSc card that I talk about, we want to baby it through that gel network formation. 01:53:06 Speaker 1: By slow, you mean lower temp, low to or longer. 01:53:10 Speaker 5: I probably want to get the humidity up, so you know how you put an oil right, sorry, an oil, a water pan and your smoker. I'd probably do that for this, and i'd hang them in like a vertical you know whatever, electric smoker or charcoal. 01:53:23 Speaker 2: Smoke ballpark it like what temp and how long? Because you're taking a raw hot This hot dog has not been cooked. You're hanging a raw hot dog. It's in a smoker. How long and how hot? 01:53:33 Speaker 5: I'd start at one twenty okay, I'd probably increase it ten degrees over a period of time. And you know I'm talking hours potentially. I mean, when a hot dog's made in a hot dog plant, it's not hours. It's a shorter period of time. But you've got to get to that one fifty five one sixty. With chicken, it's one sixty five. There obviously the safety points that you don't cook too, but I would baby it through those early stages until that gel starts to set up. And you know, I think we've been talking about the science and using words like emulsions, protein, gel network, and it feels like again that I'm making food in a petrie jar. But this is all natural stuff. We learned from the natural world on how to how to make this make the materials. Yea, and yeah, I mean I'm convinced that the primary reason of venison hot dog. I think everything that's on the market as a venison dog would be pretty close to sausage and not close to a Frankfurter. And that's because that protein extraction is so hard. We just have to to baby it, keep it cool, and then the smoking start at one twenty. Work your way up until you got a dog. You know, I probably have one wiener that would be sacrificial. He'd be the one i'd be checking temperature on. 01:54:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting, you said that's why venison dogs. What you're just telling me about venison dogs on the market. Have you ever seen the movie French Dispatch. 01:55:08 Speaker 5: No, Okay, there's a. 01:55:09 Speaker 1: Dude in this movie. 01:55:10 Speaker 2: He's like, he's an art dealer. Yeah, this ties into Hodd dogs. He's an art dealer and he's dealing in an abstract art. He says, the only way you can tell if abstracts art is good is you got to ask the artist to do you a regular painting. 01:55:27 Speaker 1: So I'll ask him to do me a bird. If he can do a great bird, then you know he's doing abstract because he chooses to if he can't do a great bird, he's doing abstract because he's not talented. 01:55:39 Speaker 2: Enough to do regular art. So with the venison dog thing, when people are going it's just interesting. When people are getting clever with these venison dogs, they might be abstract artists who can't. 01:55:54 Speaker 1: Do a bird. 01:55:57 Speaker 5: Right, good point. 01:55:58 Speaker 1: So they're like they're acting like they're trying to elevate the game, but it's like, no, you're not elevating the game. You can't do a roller dog. That's why you're doing right. We need to do a bird, I know. 01:56:14 Speaker 2: So I would go to a fancy dog guy, a fancy roller dog or a fancy hot dog guy and do the same test, like, okay, okay, if your hot dogs so great, make me. 01:56:23 Speaker 5: A roller dog, make me a roller dog out of venice. 01:56:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, And if you can do that, then I'll believe you that your dog is great. But if you can't do it, you can't do a bird. That's why you're doing abstract. 01:56:35 Speaker 5: Yeah, And that was that was one of the questions that that Karen asked me during the prethink. She said, well, when you make when you make hot dogs at home, and yeah, it's much easier to go to the store and buy a hot dog for five bucks a pack than to make hot dogs at home, Like you're kind. 01:56:54 Speaker 1: Of yeah, that's a weird deal, right, It's. 01:56:57 Speaker 5: A really weird deal. Like, am I gonna take a whole animal? I mean, granted, in Alabama, I think I did the math on it. I can kill two hundred and three deer a year, so the state. So we've got they're more deer in Alabama than there are alligators in Florida. There's tons of them. They're just not the gigantic ones that y'all have here. But am I gonna take a deer and just kind of commit to making some dang hot dogs out of this animal? 01:57:35 Speaker 1: And he pointed that out, Yeah, Cal made them, And he pointed out He's like, Okay, let's say you do get real good and you make a whole bunch of gas station hot dogs out of deer meat. Then what do you got A very valid point because I want to I don't need thou If there was ever you're gonna do this to make too hot dogs, if there was. 01:58:03 Speaker 4: Ever a year to do it. It's the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of this fine nation. 01:58:07 Speaker 1: That's a good point, man. How better to commemorate, How better to commemorate. 01:58:11 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm fully expecting this year to be a bang up year for the dog general. 01:58:18 Speaker 1: Could be a big dog here in general. 01:58:20 Speaker 5: I think it's gonna be a big dog. 01:58:21 Speaker 4: Conditions are right now. 01:58:23 Speaker 1: I just had a couple of I had a couple on Saturday. Man, they were delicious. 01:58:28 Speaker 5: That's my Yeah, that's my go to deer camp, like like lunches is hot dogs. 01:58:35 Speaker 1: I was telling my kids. I was like, man, I don't think you're supposed to put ketchup behind those technically, you know, they don't put ketch up on them. 01:58:41 Speaker 5: I got a problem with that. 01:58:42 Speaker 1: You put ketch up on them? Yeah, they didn't want to hear about that. 01:58:47 Speaker 5: Yeah. My wife puts mayonnaise on hers and I got a major problem with that. 01:58:50 Speaker 2: I was observing their day to my buddy when I was eating those dogs. You know when you get those like, let's say you're at a event. You're at like a concession stand, right, give you a dog and it's on that. 01:59:01 Speaker 4: Little coffee filter type tray thing. 01:59:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a little pay like a waxed kind of tray. So you get you get your dog at the counter and you settle up, and then they somewhere nearby they got like the condiment station and maybe the dog's in a foil rap or two could be okay, So you. 01:59:22 Speaker 1: Get it out of there. You go over to the condiment deal and you start applying everything. There is no chance, like you cannot do it. That that that those condiments, that that when you're sitting there on your bed on the the bleacher, Yeah, you're sitting there on the bleacher. There is no chance that you're not gonna have ketch up mustard on your hands and on your clothes. It like it can't happen. 01:59:50 Speaker 2: I was just observing this on Saturday to somebody in your car. You get out of the gas station, you get in your car, there is gonna be Yeah, even if you skip the condiment table and just took the dog and the raw dogged it. 02:00:06 Speaker 1: I swear you're gonna walk out your car and there's gonna be ketchup on you. Yeah, and you don't go near the ketchup. 02:00:10 Speaker 4: That's how you know you had a good time. 02:00:12 Speaker 5: That's right. 02:00:13 Speaker 3: Half of Sydney's phone camera roll is just images of me with mustard. Somewhere it shouldn't have been. 02:00:19 Speaker 5: Well, I've been known to to your ribs in the car and that's a similar yeah, a similar problem. Real messy driving food. 02:00:30 Speaker 1: Ribs on the road. You know what boot Ann is. Yeah, what I had an idea with boot Ann would be, I'll say about you'd get a receptacle of hot sauce up on the top of your car, like where the roll buyer would be or whatever, and you know, hose down through the car. 02:00:49 Speaker 5: Yeah. 02:00:50 Speaker 1: So the picture that you're driving, right here's your steering wheel and everything, and right here is a little valve, a squeeze valve. So when you're eating boot Ann, you can you can a little you can you can right out of that reservoir. You just dribble. 02:01:07 Speaker 4: It's perfect because you only need two hands to do it. 02:01:10 Speaker 2: Well, that's because you're driving with you. 02:01:14 Speaker 1: Well, maybe you'd get it such that you could like a foot pedal. Yeah, there's a foot pedal, you know that in Europe. 02:01:21 Speaker 3: In Europe, at the outside of the hot dog stand they have mustard with a foot pedal. Brilliant, So you can hold a drink and a dog and dress your dog with your foot pedal. At least we're the last, the last hot dogs. Well I noticed it. It was not every Yeah, And I'm standing there looking at it, wondering where I should slap it, like trying to balance my beer on my hand with the dog in my hand. And this woman came up and she's pointing at the ground, and I had no idea what she was. And then and then I saw the pedal, and I thought, my god, they are better than us. 02:02:00 Speaker 5: Well they stole that from the border potty industry, right, you know, they recycling where they're smart. 02:02:07 Speaker 4: It's smart. 02:02:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you. 02:02:08 Speaker 2: People might not be willing to help us out in our current conflict, however, you have a great way of getting. 02:02:15 Speaker 1: You found a great way to get mustard under my dogs. 02:02:19 Speaker 2: So if we ever want to do this, So if we want to do our hot dog get, we got to come find you guys all the way in France. 02:02:26 Speaker 1: That's where the big bad lab. 02:02:27 Speaker 5: That's where the lab is. Yeah, obviously there are tons of boutique customers here in the US that had the same equipment, but you don't have to get you don't have the the free reign of a lab to experiment and all they've got. 02:02:44 Speaker 1: To let you in there with us, because you've got to be there with us when we do these dogs. 02:02:47 Speaker 5: That's right. Who knows you're probably gonna get a bunch of requests. 02:02:54 Speaker 2: Well, it'd be tough far for them because they'd have to be able to now write in and be like that guy. 02:03:00 Speaker 5: Was a hat. 02:03:01 Speaker 1: That guy's a hat. 02:03:02 Speaker 2: So if a dude, if a big hot dog guy out there can come in and look at your resume pressure and be like, he's no. 02:03:12 Speaker 1: Hot dog man. I'm a hot dog man. 02:03:15 Speaker 5: I'm a casing man. I'll say that I'm more of a casing man than a hot dog man. But but you kind of have to you gotta know the process understand. 02:03:27 Speaker 1: Like, let's say you're an electrical view electric vehicle guy. Someone's like, I'm more of a battery man, yeah than electrical. But I'm like, but that's that's what's so being a casing man, I don't think detracts from you being a hot dog man. It's like the battery guy at an EV place. 02:03:44 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're safe until I get an email from the podcast email forwarding thing and it says Oscar at Oscar meyer dot com. That's the only that's the only guy who's going to trump your credentials here. 02:03:56 Speaker 5: So for the rest of you guys are the one that keep bringing up that brand, that's fine. 02:04:02 Speaker 1: Well it'll get problem. You know why we keep bringing that band up is to be honest with you, I can't think of another hot dog outfit. Ballpark Nathan Yeah, okay, Nathan's Phil, can you scratch every time we said that? 02:04:14 Speaker 3: It may or if Nathan himself emails me Nathan and Nathan's, we'll stop. 02:04:21 Speaker 4: We'll stop mentioning. 02:04:24 Speaker 5: Yeah, you haven't mentioned one that's not a customer. 02:04:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, ballpark? Yeah, so ball at Ballpark take that call. 02:04:35 Speaker 5: Nathan's famous as her sponsors then yeah. 02:04:38 Speaker 1: I don't get that, man. I don't think that they should do that. 02:04:44 Speaker 4: It's probably it's probably their best marketing. 02:04:47 Speaker 1: I don't think that that's good. You know what, you know he's got another bad idea. 02:04:51 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's Wintles. You're not a paint man, are you? 02:04:57 Speaker 1: Okay? Who's that paint outfit there? Sit? Their Their logo is the Earth getting covered up with paint? Sherman Williams. I think it says cover the Earth. I'm not kidding you. Phil, pull that up it says like cover the Earth. Their logo is the planet paint dumping on top of the planet, and the paint is dripping off down around like forty fifth parallel south. 02:05:27 Speaker 4: I guess I can I can envision it, but I never really put that together. 02:05:34 Speaker 2: And then Nathan's doing that hot dog eating contest. I think it's bad business. 02:05:39 Speaker 1: I think people would sell a lot more paint if they got rid of that paint logo. 02:05:43 Speaker 5: I thought you were going to go into other eating contests. 02:05:45 Speaker 1: Yeah, this did these guys miss the whole earth Day create like the whole earth Day era? Like, dude, I don't look at that and get all hot for some paint, do you know what I'm saying. Imagine if that was like Xon's logo, not a sponsor. Yeah, and that Nathan's hot dog eating contest. I think they should back out of that that. It grosses me out. Man. 02:06:13 Speaker 5: There's an oyster eating raw oyster eating contest and uh and mobile where where it's volume. So you gotta get your name on the board. And I'm gonna go I'm gonna go dark for a minute. There is the guy that's at the top of the board got sick halfway through us, you'll say, in one of those Lexan deals. 02:06:39 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well that's kind of sick. 02:06:41 Speaker 5: They said, all right, you're out. He goes, no, I want to get on the board if I go ahead and eat that, can I can I fire it back up? They said sure, So he re ingested. Oh no, for the soul point of getting his name at the top of the top of the worst some people have there. 02:07:05 Speaker 4: It's good to have some of your passionate about something they're passionate for. 02:07:09 Speaker 5: That's tough. 02:07:10 Speaker 1: You want me to pull the video of that. This is not Phil's phone, man. I appreciate you coming on the show. It I do see. 02:07:23 Speaker 2: We were we're definitely interested in doing that trip. But like kind of word got. 02:07:29 Speaker 1: Around the office a little bit and it's generated a handful of eye rolls. Just to be frank, I get it frank, because people were like, oh no, why why And then someone brought up like, would you be doing other things there too? Like, no, just making the hot dogs. I'll look for domestic, little worky things you'd be doing while you're there, and we we're like, no, getting. 02:07:57 Speaker 4: Seems pretty straightforward. 02:07:59 Speaker 5: Some bread they do bread? Well, yeah, yeah, I mean getting so bove Is. It was like a short cab ride from Paris. Getting from here to Paris, it's pretty easy. 02:08:15 Speaker 1: I do have a little easy for another I just realized for another for there's a writing project where I do have to do a little site visit. Yeah, I do have a sprance like, yeah, that's a great point. Who's that? We're good? 02:08:28 Speaker 5: All right, I just thought of it. 02:08:29 Speaker 1: It just hit me, Okay, coming on the show. 02:08:35 Speaker 5: I've enjoyed it. 02:08:36 Speaker 1: No, that's good man, this I learned. 02:08:37 Speaker 2: You know what, you know what's going to happen now though, people I hang out with are going to have to endure me when they're eating dogs for me to be like, man, you. 02:08:46 Speaker 5: Know protein extraction. 02:08:47 Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're curious. 02:08:48 Speaker 1: About what you're eating there, I'll be happy. 02:08:50 Speaker 3: I don't remember what day we spoke, but Sydney had like a bad first forty five minutes when she got home from work. It's just like you know this part of the Hot Talk where the line is no I don't have. 02:09:04 Speaker 5: That was the key, just to make it one pound packs easy for the consumer. 02:09:10 Speaker 1: Love it. Thank you, John, thank you. 02:09:12 Speaker 5: Man enjoyed it. Thank you.

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