00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bog bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything. You're honest, zapp him with your far away out bugles sound. I feel like you've gotten worse at it over to yours. Hit it again because sometimes sometimes they're like they're like they stir my soul. You have got worse over you. I just wanted to set the mood because you got you guys. Both two of our three guests both got out. Three of our three? Who else go? I shot one last weeks hunt with the Out Foundation, and that's cheating. Yeah, it was a good time. Were pretty Yeah, it was. I mean there was a day and a half we didn't see or hear elk, and then there was a morning where we saw him, heard a lot of elk. What was going on? What state we're in, Montana? Eastern Montana, so hunting just you know, they were coming up river bottom and some farmland and catching them up coming into the hills, picked him off, and I mean it was it was wild and crazy for about an hour and a half, calling them, were getting out in front of them, got out in front of him, and cow called him in. So there was twelve bulls buglin. So that just really got him to talk. It didn't actually get him to come over, but then I just kind of snuck in and was able to caw call him over the ridge to us. Okay, twelve bulls, Yeah, it was. There was a big herd going through and they were kind of navigating through. You know, we're kind of big herd. I mean there was a hundred elk easy really yeah, And I mean, you know, there's a bunch of there's a bunch of different bulls with the harems, you know, of six or seven. And then my bowl was kind of following up the rear and I could hear him bugling off, and so we just waited till he got over out of sight, and then a cow called a couple of times. He responded right away, and then I could tell he was coming our way and I had found a pinch point that they all funneled through, and so we just waited there. Cow called one more time, he responded and crested the hill and came into forty yards. How far did you run after you hit him? He went a little way, so no excuses, didn't put the perfect shot on him, so hit him and ended up watching him go over the ridge a little bit, and then decided to back out for a couple hours and went back and he was dead there. So we made it a couple hundred yards. Yeah, I kept it real and Western Montana public land. We're using on X, sharing way points, checking out where the water is. I gotta look at intermittent streams to see where the water is going to be when I'm up in the mountain. Did my little now union there, I use a starry pin and get water. I don't like to carry water around, so check out those intermittent streams. Get down there a little drink that probably had to use on actually, just to figure out make sure he wasn't going from one private to the wrong private. Yeah, we're definitely navigating boundaries, making sure I was on the right places there, and then also just being able to mark, you know, we're sharing way points where to be at certain times. What do you guys call that? This is kind of not off topic but a little tangent here, But what do you get? Because I was talking to a friend of mine, I was telling me about don't talk about a definitely still on elkhn. But he was telling me about how his guiding season was in Colorado, and he was saying, man, I had just the last week multiple like a half dozen magic circles. Now does that mean anything to you? When someone someone said they're out depend on the context, mane and they got into like the magic circle. No, I would be like I would say in that situation, I would say, um, would you happen to be referring to a honey hoole? Mm hm, which you wouldn't ask them if there were any wizards involved. Yeah, well yeah, if he was hunting mushrooms, I would think you found a bunch of ferry rings. Well, I've forgotten that we used that term back when I used to guide there. The magic circle. Yeah, it means like a honey hole. No fest, Yeah, that's what I was thinking, rot fest. Some people call it like I've heard it call a meatball. I've heard it called a god What did the guy from primos Um Jim Horn from those early Premos videos used to call it ud place where there was a lot of bugling elk activity. Sure, but it's so rare and it's so special that when you find yourself all a sudden there. Yeah, and it's just like, holy sh it, there are three d and sixty degrees. They're screaming, I don't have to talk, I don't have to do anything. I under stand here most likely wanting to come walk and buy me. And you feel like you're heavily use it heavily and use it for turks and unused it for out But that it just reminded me because it kind of sounds like you got yourself. Yeah, we did into that. We found them. They were migrating up and you know, what do you mean migrating. They're displaced by pressure. They're doing their daily like going to get water and food and sleeping. So they were down at night. They would come out to the fields and then you could hear them all night, you know, down in the hay fields, and then they would migrate up top into the hills and they'd go bed up on the north facing slopes and some on that property, some on the neighboring. But really what it was is we could hear them and there was two predominant ridges and a big creek in the middle, and so we kind of slowly went up at dark at first light, listened and we could till they were crossed, and when we got to that kind of cliff we could just see them all moving up. So we had to dive down in the creek and go get in there, try to get ahead of them summing past us at that point, and then I didn't call until I knew that last one was there. We just kept trying to sneak in get on him. Ended up having a rag goring at like fifty. It's two really nice bulls fighting at about ten. Couldn't get around them. The wind was bad. Luckily it was all coming down the drainage. And then the biggest bowl I saw. We had him at a hundred fifty and we're pinned down just some in some timber and big flat. Couldn't get across. So I just told the cameraman. I was like, Hey, we can't do anything, just film him. Yep. They're filming that one for one of their videos. Yep, we're gonna be in it. Yep. So I don't know if that one's going TV or online, but yeah, they were filming for that one. So we got a couple of really nice bowls on camera. Just unfortunately, I'm I'm an opportunist and that. You know, I knew that bowl coming. He was fired up and ready to go, and I found the pinch point that he was going to go. So we just waited and we were ready for him. Nice. Yeah, it was a good hunt. It was fun. But I mean before that we had one bowl, no two bowls within a hundred fifty one within a hundred you know, it's not you know, it was tough hunting. They were kind of their normal patterns. They weren't really following the script there. So it was a lot of glassing, a lot of silent days, a couple of days where we didn't see elk, and then we ended up finding where they were. Do you have in your head? Uh, do you have in your head like the distance beyond which I will not shoot? Absolutely? I kind of do like a hard stop, and I think it. I think with elk, I think it moves that distance should be shorter or closer. They're tough animals and yeah, like oh over, yeah, yeah, I mean it it varies from everyone else, but everything's got to be perfect regardless. But fifty yards on milks a poke, I mean that's a good shot, you know. Yeah. I wound up having um. Yeah, in my head, like the like the non debatable distance beyond which you will not have been like, well wait and see, yeah, because they look big. Man, we're looking there. They we're looking at a spike standing there and I'm like, man, you could you know an arrow over there? I don't be ranged, frien. It's like seventy two and I'm like, well, a lot of people do. But that's a long distance for something that's aware of you and already looking over, especially when you're aware of you. Man, we'd learned, you know, we talked about this on the podcast on Monday, but you know, we and we got to review it because we filmed it, you know. But the Steve the bullet stea shot really jumped the string. And it was because he was aware, right, he was tense stop because something was amiss. He was standing around long enough because he was still listening to a cat supposed cow over the hill, right, But like when he heard that arrow bow go off, man, he launched and we gotta yeah, there's a frame. There's a frame where you there's a tree that there's a The arrows passed in front of a ponderosa and the frame happened to catch the blur of the arrow, so you know where the arrow isn't a flight path, nothing is already on its way. Yeah, did you guys, cal call him? Stop him? Well, he's coming into coming then was hiding and I was, I mean after the shot, no before, so Eric and I were talking about this. My bowl was moving parallel to me, and I cal called him, and he turned and looked, and you know, we were wondering if that played into why I didn't hit exactly where I wanted to. I'm not using that as an excuse, but preferably as an equivalent of saying like, hey, yeah, exactly, which works really well too. Yeah yep, But but then they're looking at you and yeah, then they're like, he had no idea I was there. He was looking forward, and then when I caw called, you can see he looks right over on film. And then when I shot, obviously you can hear the string. Regardless how quite a bow is, they can hear something. And so do you feel like he jumped too? He he whirled a little bit. Absolutely, I mean he turned, but I think I think what it was. I think he knew I was there when I cal called, and I think he wouldn't of And if he would have stopped, I would have had you know that, I had no idea if he would have stopped. Yeah, if he would have stopped. And at that point, he's moving, you know, he's not moving fast, but he's moving to go up and follow these other elk and I shot last year at one that was just very slowly walking, thinking like, oh, there's no way if I'm just tracking him, I touched off. It was like yards, there's no way that I won't just smoke him right where I'm aiming. And I didn't do it. I mean I hit him way back, you know, straight, like just above the guts, no vitals, and I know you know, Eric and I were talking about that and not take his story, but he didn't calcoled stop. He was patient and it paid off. Well, I want to talk about that. Then then I got a head. You guys, tell who you are first, but no, if you can tell who you are or you just tell us about this, then tell you who you are. I'll just tell the story to start and then you'll tell us who you are. So here's a story coming from a from a just from a voice from the darkness, lone voice from the blackness. Yeah, last weekend I was out elk hunting with my brother in law. Yeah, I used to guide. Yes, I did full that in there because I used to guide over by where that was out rocking Mount An Elk Foundation Eastern Montana mostly elk, u mule deer, and elk. But yeah, I guided for a couple of seasons for elk hunting and in September, all of September that was a good time. Tiring though, seven days seven days when you got the long days where you're getting back to camp at tin eating, going to bed at eleven, get up at five am, and they're trying to serve you a big breakfast. After you ate it, I'm like, no, I cannot eat. I just ate it stuffed myself at eleven o'clock. I cannot eat. But yeah, it tires you. You guys would do seven day hunts, seven day hunts over this type of country eastern Montana, the breaks type stuff, Yellowstone River breaks, and you had hunters that could no problem make it through that or you have feel like the waning after halfway. Yeah, they could do it. When you're doing just one hunt is doable. But then you do one day arrest, and then another hunt seven days and one day arrest, seven more days, another day, arrest, seven days and you're like, okay, I want to get behind the computer again. That was fun, but longing when you started longing for your computer, if only the answer something, Yeah, those were the early days. But yeah, so there I get in the circle. The circle of life wasn't magic circle of magic, magic circle. So we you're just n Joe blow public Land. Anytime Bick and the Harry, tons of people go up this trailhead tons of people. So yeah, everybody, That's why I went Thursday morning. I found him and then we kind of bumped a little bit. We figured they went into this other base and kind of worked around the other way, and sure enough we figured they were in that base, and so we went and made the trek up there about five miles and did a locate Friday afternoon, they responded, um, so we're like, okay, well, let's set up our camp. We actually went a little further and went over the ridge, set up camp, came back and by that time we bugled from the road. You guys on horseback or walking walking, Yeah, by that time we were on the road. It is a road though, but um it's a gated road. And there was one above a bugle, and there's response above response below in this big basin, like, oh sweet, well, why don't you. I wanted my brother in law to get one. So I'm like, go up after that when he's above the road, and we don't really want to go down there. That would not be fun. So he starts working in. I'm just so I start bugling. They wouldn't answer to a cow call, but they're answering your bugle something. Wow. Stick with what's working, thinking that you're gonna keep it talking. He's gonna slip in there, and so I'll keep him talking from four yards and you just slip in and see what you can get. We know he's probably got cows. He's chuckling, so he's got cows up there, But just slip in and get close. That's kind of our strategy. So I kept him bugling, although the one below me was more responsive to all my bugles, so I just sat there and bugled. Well, sure enough he's working in. Here comes a bugle coming up out of the base, and I'm like, jeez, this one's gonna come right in. It must be a satellite bowl. But he bugles, and I think I'm about a hundred yards from him, and he must he somehow got by me without me seeing him, And anyway, he ended up coming around and he probably heard me and got close enough to be watching where the sound was coming from and got nervous. Um. But I kept bugling. My brother and I finally got close to that one. He said he got a thirty yard opportunity, but the bull came in and the wind shifted a little bit and kind of walked off the other way. So he's so close to that one. But I've been bugling for like every you know, every ten minutes at bugle do just do locate bugle, And this one just keeps responding. So I've been bugling for like an hour and a half now, and this one just you can tell he's like leaving his cows and like coming up halfway up the base and just I'm like, jeez, he's like moving. I think he's leaving his cows and coming up. So I knew, well I went up to the head of the drainage and seeing these wallows down there, so I went down to the wall. I was like, maybe he'll come up and get upset about this if I go into his bedroom and start bugle, and so I bugle there you can hear him responding. But then that's about the time I met up with my brother in Lawn. We were talking about He told me about his whole scoop getting close and everything. And while we're talking, I hear the bull buglin right in the wall is where I was. I'm like, he's like leaving his cows. He's he's pretty fired up. So anyway, we keep walking and we get a little bit around the base and I'm bugling again. He's responding. Now the other one. Ryan thought he spooked the other one, but he was still up there buglin right from the exact same spot. So my geez, go back there that I'm gonna go around here. We're in the circle. We're in the magic circle. Let's do this. So I just keep going around the basin on this road and I'm bugle and buglin. He's responding, and I get a little further he stops responding. I'm like, I'm and what's going on? He hasn't responded like three bugles. At that point, I'm thinking, man, do I need to go down here? I'm just kind of slowly moving along this road. What time is it now? Now it's about seven o'clock. We had started at like four thirty. Now it's about seven o'clock. I've been buggling at this guy for two and a half hours. And turns out he is about fed up and he's going to see who the hell is in his winds not blowing down to him. Um, it did when I was on that road. So anyway, yeah, it it's kind of swirled down in there. The wind was still. It was actually kind of coming up still. You know, six o'clock, it's still coming up seven it starts to want to Yeah, oh sorry, I was mixed up, so yeah, pm to seven pm then, so I'm just thinking what do I need to do that better? And so I can't believe that I can't leave, But you have expecting other guys to show because all this racket potentially, yeah, I mean I was, I potentially expected some guys to come up the road. Yeah, there's a lot of guys that going there. Um, so I'm thinking, well, he must have just went back to his cows whatever. And I'm just sitting down the road thinking about what I should do and all of a sudden, I see Tan coming through. I'm like, what, Oh my gosh, he's like sixty yards away, coming up the mountain just like this. And I and my range finder out earlier because I had that one bowl come in. Well, I put my belt strap around when I had my range finder from in my pocket. So I'm like doing one of those like, oh I did that again. I gotta get my range finder out from underneath my belts trap. Oh my gosh, she's coming in. So I'm getting nervous at this point, and I'm ranging. Okay, I get twenty thirty for you. Okay, this is close, Like wow, I love hunting the timber. This is actually doable. He could come into thirty. So he's coming up getting aero knocked. And by the time I get that aero knocked, he's at like thirty and he stops and I think he hears a little bit, and he's just sits there about twenty seconds. He's sitting there, and I'm just like I had I Usually i'm pretty calm, being a guide and everything, I'm pretty pretty calm and did but I was nervous at that point, and I started like because I had seen his rack. I'm like, this is a monster. I was just like, oh no, he's gonna win me. And I felt the wind go fright on the back of my neck. I'm like, oh no, just like hyperventilating. No, but just this is one of those situations. Usually it goes all wrong downhill. You know, something happens and they blow out. Everything went right here. It's so thankful that everything went right. So he turns and starts coming up hill. He kind of does a little number. Felt the wind on your neck and which it wasn't him, but it was it was he was. This is a steep slope, so I think it was just floating over him and to the side. So he turns and he starts going through these gaps and I have a chance to draw. I'm like, okay, there's three gaps there. Please stop there, no, hope. He doesn't stop. He's moving up stopping that one. Please no. He's like, oh my goshould I calcols, colcol No, don't do it, don't do it. He doesn't doesn't know anything. He's pissed. And there's the third gap and he stops and I'm like, okay, that's thirty I like put it on his shoulder. Then my gosh, no, I gotta do further back. I gotta do further back. Get where that long is really big, like mid body where that long? Because I always shoot high, it seems like so sure enough, shoot boom. He starts trotting off. I looked at my vine. I was like, oh, yes, it's good. Like blood starts forming right mid body, Like okay, that's a good shot. I've gotta get his lungs. He trots about forty yards, It goes over this little rise and I hear a crash, crash, crash, crash. He made it like forty yards and just like six seconds he bloom, tumbled and was done. I'm like, yeah, I hadn't, like yes, yelled out loud. You know, I couldn't do because it was like just a monster. I hadn't even come close to getting anything like that. And in public land archery so turned out to be a huge, mature, fully mature bowl. And I'm just stoked. Two pounds of meat came off of him. We get a meat processor. Yeah, just enormous, to the point where we got all three quarters off and we still couldn't like him flipped over because he's on a step hillside. We got him tied off and we couldn't like jeez, we just like one am. We've been cutting on him for four hours, couldn't quite get him over even with one all the other quarters off. Guts out, big old, big old massive bowl. All right, man, it's so awesome and I just can't believe how it happened. Bugling this guy and he comes in like that. I I haven't had an experience like that in a long time. It's probably gonna change your hunting tactics a little bit yext here. It's like, man, if you just sit back and getting the magic circle and start bugling, getting his bedroom and bugle some more. Getting fired up. Take a couple of hours, so you don't know what can happen while you're bugling. So you never call called once. We did try it in the beginning and they just wouldn't respond to it. So I go, I'm gonna stick with the bugle. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's just ladies. He had ladies down there. I'm pretty sure he's chuckling. So but yeah, we would probably tell who you are, now, Okay, I can do that. My name is Eric stake. Fred, I'm the founder of on X. Okay, I'm Zack sand Out, So I'm the marketing coordinate project coordinator at on X and you've got mat Sital product owner for on X. I do a little bit everything, so, um, I guess I kind of like think of like the customer voice, but day to day operations is a lot of marketing strategy, go to market strategy, kind of product development. So product owner, it's kind of like a term that software companies use, so overarching vision for the product. Got goah, got you? I would imply I would think that means that you see things through from beginning to end. Is that not true? Like who's the owner of this some things? Yeah? How long have all you guys been with on X starting I've been here, I've only been Yes, I'm coming up on three years, coming up on three years. I started right out of college as an intern and then just kind of way up through. Yep, that's cool, man, I'll be hinting eight years in January, which is stretching back, Yeah, the old days. What do we at like nine years now? The first launch of the product. How many years did you Well, we'll talk about that in a minute. No, tell me, no, how many years had you mess with it before it became a thing. I had been messing with that GPS product for about a year, kind of figured it out late two thousand eight. And uh, it took me about a year to come up with figuring out how to get the data onto the chip. And that was the original garment product for a garmen. So what um, okay, marshby through this, because let let me let let's step back in the time when I was When I was a boy and when I would look for I would like scour for trapping permissions, ye, muskrat spots whatever. I would go down. Um, I'd go to the township the various townships around where I lived in western Michigan, so all the townships and all the counties, and I would go down there and get their tax record books and they would let you photo copy pages for fifty cents a piece or whatever, or you could just go and you could also go and buy a township plat book. I would hand that to my father and my father would um work the phones. I would mark for him where I wanted to be, and he would get on the phone. He would look up the name and he would work the phone until he found an in right, like, oh you know, it's a guy. It turns out that's a guy from Church's cousin and he had a really good success rate. So and that was something that Yeah, that was like a like a how eye level that was like high level land information at the time. That was like the most granular sort of piece of information. It was not easy to go get, yeah, I mean you had to really go like passive people well, like like someone who's like flipping and passive and half pass about shif they're not doing that. So enter when like when did people first started having GPS as to walk around with? And that was I mean the mapping GPS has come out in the early two thousands, thousand to two thousand three where they actually could put a map on them, but mid nineties for like just remember the garments where you could just like see your location and see your little The first one we touched was mid nineties and it was my brother. He was working he was doing a federal research project and had one, but it was before they fine tune them. They were still within twenty five ft or something like that. I remember one of them is this whole thing gonna catch on? We would mess around, you know, he had like check it out and check it back in because it was federal property. But it didn't have any kind of mapping stuff over. Yeah, I remember using the ones where with the black and white screen, black and gray screen whatever, and you just like you can mark your vehicle and then you can see where you walked, and then you just walk back on. That's all you can see. There's no other data except this like gray background. Yeah, exactly, give you the arrow to point to a way point. It doesn't matter if it's through five valleys, it will point you as a crow flies directly to it. So what was like, what's the basic um my like plat book thing was just like a precursor to like that's at a time if you want to find out land ownership stuff at a detailed level, particularly want to apply to private land, that was like the way to do it. And then like but give me him me with like a rough sort of like GPS timeline, Like when based on on your guys memory, when was it the the GPSS became like you know, early adopters were using them, and how did it come to be that the what are the sort of year markers where all of a sudden you could get you know, basic map, like basic geographical features on it, and then all the other overlays. Do you remember that at all? Not so much, but I could, I kind of guess. I mean your early two thousand. I bet it's starting to catch on with early adopters with like, oh cool, at least I can mark where my truck is and I can easily go out for I can figure out my way back as long as I like mark my truck. So lots of people probably have those early gps is and like two thousand, hunters are starting to use them for that purpose. Then you get like the mapping gps is where they actually can have like a topo map on it, coming in two thousand three, two four, I'm not sure. I think Garman released a lot of their maps in two thousand and eight, yeah, but they had the hundred K topo and like two maybe, but some early adopters probably had it. But then like two thousand six, two thousand seven, I remember getting my first like d K you got a new GPS with the color screen, hundred K topo came with it nationwide and then it's like, oh cool, that's pretty sweet. I can at least use the topography to figure out where I'm at, and so I'd use it for that. And then uh, there's and then they're now they have these mapping GPS is, so then there's people making maps for them and kind of third parties making maps for the garments. And that's where I actually looked up online how to make a map for a garment GPS unit. Like why, Like what was going on? What were you wondering about? I had the man, there's so many things that so many times I've been out there where I'm using a Ford Service map or at BLM map and I don't quite know exactly where I'm at. Usually pretty good about figuring out I'm on this road or this road, but sometimes I take the wrong road and I'd waste two hours in my day, Like gosh, I just made a mistake and I went down that ridge and I should have gone down state on this ridge, and I waste two hours of my day or whatever, and it's valuable time. So I had many experiences like that, So I was I was thinking of I don't know why. I let's see late two, I had a certain experience where I was using Google Earth. There was one time I remember I was using I had like studied it all from home, Like, okay, I looked at all the air imagery using Google Earth. I'm gonna go try to hunt these elk where they're coming off private going onto public. And I went out there, had studied it all, and I went out there and I still couldn't. There's like the fans and another fans, and my gosh, I still don't know where the boundary is. Even though I've done all this research at home. I need this with me out here. I've got this garment with these maps, why don't they have like boundary information on them? So that was probably an experience in two thousand seven. So then I started googling learning a little bit more about it. And you went and typed up how to make a garment topo map? Yeah, I mean, and then there's this website that shows here's how we make these touple maps. And all they didn't do was put the public land information underneath. All I had to do is figure out how to put the public land data underneath it. So I go to work, and what were you doing for a living at that time. I graduated from mechanical engineering at Montana State in late two thousand six, and I was doing in Missoula. I had moved to Missoula, Montana, and UM was doing h v A C design heating, ventilation and plumbing design for supermarkets. There you go. So that was more inspiring for me to try to start my own company. I left you some brain space to start messing around with evenings. I was just messing around. I started a few websites and was really passionate about helping people get outdoors and saw I had a vision for just like recreation information like on Google Earth, like more widespread rather than having to get like one map here and there, just nationwide recreation information. It's messing around. There's a website called rec plan dot com that I had a long time ago, and m Miller's dot com and I started a few websites. Learned a lot about SCO. What was on the websites you started rec plan dot com like recreation Plan. Not too many people know about these but massive failures. But then were you just using your own money for this stuff? Yeah? I mean it didn't take much to ten bucks to get a website domain name and ten bucks a month. The host. What were you hoping rec plan was going to be? It was the I was like putting trailhead data and recreation site data on like Google Earth. So you were in there, you were heading in the direction you went, yeah, you weren't like, yeah, it was all about I was passionate about organizing recreation information. So then I figure out, wow, I should make maps for these Garment GPS units. You can do it. Here's the showing you how to do that right there. Okay, when when you do this in part ship with it doesn't need to be in partnership with Garment, or you're just saying like, here's a platform and you can produce a product that's usable on the platform, or does it need to be that you need to be in bed with them in some way? I hope it didn't need to be. There's making an ap to run on Android. Yea. They allowed third party mapping up for their hardware, so there was instructions on how to do that online and went in figured out how to get all the topo data from the government. They showed you how to do that, and then they just didn't have all Like I had to figure out all the where to get all the public lands data from the BLM and for a service. So I went and did that, and those were the first maps. They only had the color coded public land data underneath all that topo and roads and rivers and lakes and streams. That was the first map. Then right after I long, so what did you start with though? Just start with the whole damn state? Started with? Yeah, creating a whole state Montana, I'm in Colorado were the first products I launched. Once I figured it all out, that was like mid two thousand and then I was able to crank out how many hours did you have to do by that point that was evenings. Um, I probably had six hundred hours into it. I mean I did a lot with those other websites and messing around I made. I had a website km lers dot com and I would what was that one k m L e r s dot com. Km L files the file you create for So I create these files for people for their hunting areas. I just do small pieces of like boutique specific. Hey I want I want to load this onto my GPS. I go get this one specific hunting area for people and get the public land boundaries and send it to them to load onto their GPS and load into Google as one off. You're doing this as one off. What do you charge people for that? Pretty much nothing? I mean like twenty bucks for that type of filets. Yeah, and I'd make I just was doing some prairie dog guiding at the time. That was the two thousand nine Praye Dog Got by Day. I'd make make visi prairie dog maps on Google Earth and send them prairie dog locations. So yeah, really, so you're mapping out So that's so so mapping just random things and helping people get out to ours. So people would go onto your website in place in order. Yeah, I'd sell various things on the website, had little products through by through PayPal type things. What are the kind of products all digital products products. I would basically say custom, you'd make a product for their custom GPX file for GPS for your boundaries. And are you getting any government people or anything? Is that mostly recreate like mostly hunters? Yeah, that's mostly recreation. Then that was very few sales. I mean we're talking just like m v P type style stuff where you're proven out that you can actually sell this thing to customers, and at this time, how many other people are out messing around with putting property ownership information into GPS things. This is like a crowded field. It's not a crowded field. There's a ton of guys. I later learned that people are like in two thousand five, I was making these maps for my buddies and they told me to make a business out of it, and I never did. So I've heard those stories, but yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there. Actually, government workers were making these maps probably two thousand five to two thousand nine. There. They were making these maps and you were, but nobody else was commercializing it. There's one other guy in North Dakota who was probably doing the was like so close in the exact same timeline. It's really funny. He was doing the exact same thing I was. And were you compiling all the layers? Are just putting the ownership layer on top of something. I was getting all the topo data from the government and using like us GS geographical features, roads had the water courses, and you're just laying the ownership layer a on it, ye underneath it, and where you were finding that all of that stuff was at that time, was all of that ownership information online or you needed to going and digitized like like paper files. And so that was Remember that's just the public lands at the time. So there's it's just gonna say private and this is BLM, this is for service, this is private. It was white and you know white color. You hadn't got into like the tax record materials yet, right, you were just into like go or no, go yep. That's like late two thousand nine, this binary public private, Oh no, But what you were doing, uh BLM. It was basically the concept was here's a BLM map, but it's digital, so you could see your location on your BLM map or your for service map. That was kind of the vision. If I could just see my location on this BLM map, I'd haven't made. Yeah. I'll tell the story. Their day with me and one of my old girlfriends. One time we're hiking. We thought we were hiking in Montana because we're on there, you know, like crazy, the bitter Root borders between the Idaho Panhandle. You know, it's even a famous story with a sense of people in there to map out the range divide. They got all screwed up and it's supposed that border is supposed to follow the range divide, but the years wild wildly ye, So for you know, we're up there for a few days, backpacking around. At one point we hit a lake and there's a sign hanging on the lake, like you hit the trail as a lake signs saying what lake it was? Came up? What lake it was now? And I'm like, looking at my map, I'm like, if I got I don't know, this lake must be a brand new lake and eventually find it over in Idaho. We must take it a wildly wrong turn at something because we're not even in the state. But lake, yeah, we found it. We had veered off into the wrong state, you know. So yeah, I got the going to different There's a lot of different sources. There's a nationwide public lands data set that you could get at the time, but then you can go to the end of it the state bl M offices. I found that the state BLM offices were a little more accurate than this nationwide um public lands data set, So I'd go get Montana's BLM statewide public Lands set, and that's what I used to put underneath that topo map and create the Montana product Colorado, Wyoming with the first three I launched with. So is that okay? So? So when did when did you come up with the Because when did you come up with like a company name and stuff? Does that already happen or not happened yet? Uh? Man, that probably hadn't happened. It's right as the time I'm creating this, I'm thinking, Okay, how am I going to market this? And I had learned a lot over the failed websites. I learned a lot about search engine optimization. So I'm gonna use Google to I don't have to pay anything. I'm just gonna make sure I show up when people search for hunting maps as sure as hell. Want to be the first one that shows up. If it's like Montana hunting maps or Wyoming hunting maps, I want to be there. So that's when I came up with hunting GPS maps dot com stupid simple just say what is get fancy? Like these guys like to do. Were you married at that point? I got married in two thousand seven. So was she buying into this whole thing? Oh? Man? I didn't make money for a whole year there in her well, only a year. Yeah, I was. That was two thousand eight. I guided that that year and for dogs came back to THEB. A C. Firm and they're like, yeah, you can't know. It was it was like fall guiding for Elkins. They're like, yeah, you can't really take a month off anymore like that. And then I was like, Okay, I'm gonna start my thing. I'm gonna try to figure out a way to make some money online. And that's really what it was, like. I just want to make like year online not having to do much and now here still working some went wrong, build a big old company and not still somehow word and so then yeah, so hunting, hunting, GPS, maps dot com and you come up with three products and then every more year. We know this is right at September two thousand nine and still no employees, still no employees, and you've got three states, three states, and right away in Colorado Wyoming. Why did you pick those states? I knew the opportunity there was the most and it was the most fitting product. Is it the most what you mean? You know Wyoming there's so much opportunity for people to come into Wyoming and get tags. Well, I guess compared to I guess white tail in the East, but this was I knew this was more Western type focus where you got the feeling maps in force. Here. Yeah, because at the time you're doing you're you're thinking public, you're thinking about publicly. I can see where when I'm at relative to public land boundaries nice and easier. All I gotta do is stay on this color coded piece of land and stay off the white the private. It's easy. It makes it really easy. And when you put it up for sale, you put it up for sale. Originally was it just micro SD cards or you're selling Mike Rusty cards? And then a download version where you could download it that same year. That same year, ye, it was originally. Originally I created the download version. There's instructions on how to do that. Then I had to figure out how you could actually put it on an SD card and like lock it down to that device. So that was the big when I realized, oh wow, it's stupid simple. You just get this chip. I can sell them at retail and you plug it into a garment and it works. It's like, oh wow, that can be a business. That makes it easy. So I had the Micrusty cards and then you can do the download version where you loaded into garments map source at the time or base camp base camp, and then you can download different areas. What are you used to be called for those base Camp map source. Yeah, and there wasn't such things as smartphones, so there wasn't such a thing as an ap yet, so you didn't need to think about that. Thousand nine they had iPhones first. I didn't. I didn't have but it wasn't really in the It wasn't at that time. You weren't thinking about putting it out a phone. I'm not at all had my flip phone and I didn't even think about that. I didn't even know about it, and it wasn't something that could be was the lorm in the business back then? Who else is making jeep handheld GPS garming. Lorentz was a big Magellan I remember them. They always wanted us to make products for them, but we we could see the writing on the walls as far as like, no, you guys don't have a lot of markets, so we're not going to spend much time build an app for Magellan and Magellan Lorentz. So you still like when you go and throw the product up and you're selling the three states. No employees. You put it out there, and what happened? You started selling them, start selling them a hunter Bucks. I'm taking phone calls and I'm working sixteen hours a day, Like, oh taking a phone call. Yeah, we'll make it, make a sale hunter Bucks. Like the ching this is awesome on the website. People are buying through papal on the website, it's like, oh sweet, was it wild this season? Ha? Yeah, oh yeah, I just launched it in the season and I think that first season made about sixty dollars. Well, there you go, your ten over gold. This is gonna be big. I told my wife this is this is like an idea that's going to be big. This is a million dollar idea. Did you have a lot of money into it at that point, No, like, no loans and stuff. Invest really much in marketing except free for free ways of marketing, search engine marketing. Um, she did a little with Google AdWords, but not much at the time. And your wife was like, at this point, she's like believing it. So it was it tense or not tense? No, she's supportive, but it's a little tense with I guess other family members like, when you're gonna get a real job, what are you gonna do? Like Jens supporting you basically been about a year I was gonna be a firefighter. I was don't work. I'm going to fight a prep thing, just trying to figure out what I wanted to do because it wasn't gonna be h back. It wasn't going to be h back. No. So I always feel like our families let us down. Like where the fen You never heard the story. We're like, yeah, my whole families are just going, yeah, go you got this. You know what? I I gotta counter that because I'll tell you what. Um My old man was a firm believerman was a very firm believer. He said. He used to pound it into our heads and were kids. He says, you're gonna spend one third year life work, and he's off by a fair bit, but he said, you're gonna spill one. You're just spill one third year life work, and you have to find something that you want to do. Zero pressure ever about any benchmarks of any traditional benchmarks of what success might look like in terms of fiscal or financial reward. Ever pounded that in about you have to do something you want to do. And then even when I picked something that was like seemingly impossible from where I was, because then it had never met a writer super supportive. I published like one thing in Field and Stream, and I'd walk into a bait shop, mam out man and be like, you guys know what you're talking to Yeah, early on, man, so I know that I can't say that I ever like you know, and definitely never got any heat for my wife, right, you need to be nice. Yeah, I'm glad you're proving me wrong. Have you had people? Have you had people beating you down when you were out guiding, when people calling you up, being like that's not a real job. Yeah, you're hearing it from your pop um. But now I was pretty supportive. But think we can go down rabbit hole here. But I think it's because guiding was better than where I had been, And so he was like, all right, in the right direction, you know. But no, I remember stopping My brother and I had a very similar experience where we were driving from Michigan. We always stopped at my aunt uncles in Iowa, and uh, just stop overnight, you know, have dinner and keep driving the next day and both of us had like the talk from our uncle. It was just like from an uncle, what the hell is he care? Sounds like that's fun, But where are you gonna start, like, you know, being a member of your community and you know from an uncle. Yeah, that's a meddling. That's a meddling. Own pretty old school conservative, you know. Yeah, is that is that partisan? Being a meddler? About having a real job, that's not partisan. It doesn't matter. Um, you're bringing that up because we're having a conversation the other day about what was it that we were just starting, Like how some things become part of the Yeah, like why, Like dietary restrictions are restrictions that right? Like yeah, gluten intolerance tends to strike people on the left side of the spectrum. It's like a weird it's like a partisan disease. Um, we've talked about that in the past. So no pressure. No, one's like when you're gonna put your life together and you're like, oh, I have a feeling that there's a business to be made and doing this. No, he is getting pressure from that, but not from your from your family, your immediate fam It's coming from your in laws. Wife was a little. That'd be hard. That'd be hard to deal with. The in laws are hitting you through your wife, are hitting your direct? That's direct. Yeah. Was it like it was barbed No? No, but it was present. What are you thinking about? What are you gonna do when you get it? I don't know if it's when you get Right now, I'm taking a call because I got a feeling this is a hundred bucks before that. But yeah, thankfully, No, my wife was really supportive and she always has been. So that's part of part of the success. I'll stick with her now. So for season you're blown away. You sell sixty bucks for those awesome take it down the wholesale sports shields and Billings Montana. Personally, yeah, like, hey check this out, man. You know Attle Package. Hey, you should have these brochures here and you could sell some more garments if you just sell it with this chip. Hunters love it and the guys like the hunting. Those guys got it, like oh yeah, and you're doing this personally, travel around, I like all this American elbow Greek ship. Let go to the retail stores and talk to those guys and just walk in, go to the counter. What do you guys think of this had it in like some really just all it was a little clamshell case and I printed out on my printer and cut out the logo hunting GPS maps like stick. It was scotch tape. We still have some of the original I would sell. I'd sell them the guys like that. It would be this little cutout. So how many would a sporting good store take? UM? So they did say they'd take you know, six to start, take six, like sweet, and you're doing like traditional I don't even what what is traditional, like retail, wholesale whatever, Marco. Yeah, yeah, I did, like thirty points, just kind of follow what's normal at the time. I was selling them for a hundred and twenty when when I started it was chip. So you start out by just going to UM, but you're not getting national accounts. You're going to sell to a specific zoo Montana, Like, hey, what do you guys think. They're like, oh, this is awesome, I'll take six. Yeah, take six and see how it works and they pay you out of the cash register, right Yeah. But then they have some of the stores have the ability to get local goods, so they could just like, oh yeah, I read a little invoice and and pay you it's more of a check but not other cash register. But then went to shields and billings and the guys like didn't you just stop by two weeks ago? Like what are you talking about? The guy from North Dakota had come over and just two weeks before I went over there like September two nine. Have you ever gonna have a cup of coffee with that guy? I've talked to him on the phone. What's his tape? Nature of the conversation? Um, that was a couple of years in. It's finally like, hey, just hey, what do you think about working together a little bit more? And he's like, oh, this is just a cash cash cow for me. I'm loving it. He was saying it was a cash He's got a cash cow. He's in his house, working from his house, and his families helping him out. So yeah, he was having a good time and you were thinking of collaborating and he said no interest. Did he stay in the bis? Yeah, he's still in the BISS. I haven't heard much about him for a while, but yeah, he called him to say, hey, man, let's yeah, see if we get like Wilburn Nor right point where We're thinking, well, should we just he's doing some cool stuff, let's just join up or see if we can buy him out. I have him joined our team, see if he was interested in actually joining like legit coming over to his will and being part of our team. And was he he was fine, Yeah, he was getting North Dakota is happy with He wasn't gonna move, So I was like, I don't know if we can do it like long distance anyway. That was just an interesting anecdote and exact same time. So I mean, no, I wasn't here, but here checked this out and the shields guy ended up buying some from Mellen got it in there, and that's a great way to That's how a lot of the sales started. It's just word of mouth. People come into retail him handed out a brochure. So what was the first time he had to go get a what was the first employee went hard Um. That was probably two thousand. That was July, right before the other season, right before the next fall season. Had a friend named Rob Hart who what's uh kind of in and out of like his PhD I believe at the crist School. What was he doing a PhD in chemistry, chemistry. That was you were buddies. Then Rob Hyres Matt just a couple of months later. That was the beginning of you hired Rob to do what just operations and help with phone calls, customer service, basic business development, sales operations, and he bailed. I was going to focus on the product. He bailed on his PhD plans he did. He was a little bit there's something going on there and decided yeah, I'll join you, and he hired you, and then Eric did yeah for what So you're employee three. Yeah, So at that time everything just described. We were pretty much all doing full time. So we were on the phone. I spent the first year on the phone probably like ten to twelve customer service and traveling trade shows. I mean we started expanding, driving around the country, stopping at every sporting good store, just called walking in, giving him a product demo, building tutorials, building the website. So you're employee number three, yep, employee number three. Yeah, and you came in. It wasn't like you guys were all like, your job is this, and my job's at you're all doing all hands on deck. Yeah, at that time, it was pretty much all hands on deck, and I spent a lot of time in the first year on the phone, just a lot of customer support. So people being like, I bought this thing and it doesn't work. Yeah, I mean I can't get it download. The download product was a chore um getting people's anti virus software to accept download. Uh. People didn't know how to download a file to their computer in two thousand eleven. Uh. They didn't know when they saved it, what folder it went to. They didn't know how to do every step. I remember, you think we've been doing this since we were kids, But it wasn't. It was only it wasn't that I remember pulling. I remember being so angry. Yeah, and just down the old just messing around on whatever the the pre base camp. Yeah, and how do I unlock it? Because you know, we wanted to capacity of your device, get something and spend all this time and then fill your unit up. Well, I want to do another thing, man, but I don't want to have to go through that all again. So we were on the phone all day. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna take screenshots of each step right out written instructions. Then we had those like written tutorials you could like follow step by step, and then we'd be like with the purchase, you know, they would get sent the email with those instructions, they'd call it. We'd be like, did you read the instructions? They're like no, walcome through it. And then we got to like I was like, okay, written's okay, but I'm gonna make a video, so they like, do a video. Some people want to watch a video version, but it's just we were trying to do what we thought was best and help the customers really was our focus. Everybody the feedback was so great. We were just trying to find ways to make it easier for them to get the maps on their phone, and they were just spreading the word. He just kind of ads so yeah, right, I mean right away people are like, hey, what about Utah? What about Oregon? You guys in Idaho. Early by early two thousand ten, I had like pretty much all the western states done. I was just cranking them out. But we didn't hit Alaska for quite a while, right big file. Yeah, people weren't really asking too much about Alaska. Steward just kind of follow the demand, just kind of listen to what they're asking for, and you knew the eleven Western states we're going to be the big ones with they all the public land, so crank those out. At what point did you start getting like what point where national chains starting to buy this stuff? Um? Right in two thousand ten, we found I met a guy at a trade show early to the two thousand ten who had a connection with wholesale sports or now sportsmen to sports and warehouse and kind of went Sportsman's wholesale back to Sportsman's you know, so it was wholesale at the time, and um, he got me connected up there and we got him in retail and mid two thousand ten and the wholesale sports, Yeah, it's pretty quick. They had good feedback from their store and Missoula and some of the other stores that were able to get them locally, and um, so yeah, they were all about it. We got pamphlets and Cabela's all over the West and they're recommending it and we're just trying to keep up and are at this point are other people I know your body in North Dakota. What is it like, Like, what is the story of becoming sort of the dominant, Like, like, how did it come to be that you had like the dominant brand associated with the product, because I mean I had is it getting more crowded? Less crowded as in these ye know, it's just like surrounding yourself with really smart people like no, no, no, I'm not saying like like like how did how did you wind up? I don't know if you want to use the word wind but but what is going on at the time? Are there like competitors popping up and dropping off NonStop? We're dominating the search results for one hunting maps. So it wasn't liked, wasn't becoming crowded. No, it wasn't at all. And we're the ones getting into these retail stores nationwide with two thousand twelve, I think we got calls. So we made the retail play and then we did the search engine marketing, which those are the two plays that helped us dominate getting into retail and dominate the search engine marketing. So no one's going to catch you there. Yeah. We really attacked the the digital marketing side of it too, you know, building our email list and building up the website for SEO and you know, having the customer newsletter, map, updates, emails, um, all of that stuff to tutorials. So we kind of attacked the brand side too and really reinvested, reinvested, I would say, most of the money back into the company. Two thousand twelve. That marketing really starts. Matt and Rob leading the marketing side, and I'm more on product, working with the g I S team to get all the data. So we had Holly at that point, right after hiring Matt, we had Holly who's still with us. UM. She's the g I S Manager, So she's leading the Jazz team getting all this data and compiling it and making landownership accurate. So expanding into other states, yeah, those next question is what, um, what were the paths towards expanding the product all around the country, And what was the path towards getting out of just public private but getting into like who owns what? Yeah, right away in two thousand late two thousand nine, right after I launched the product, then I see this Montana cadastral, Like, holy go, just holy cow, this is awesome. They got Montana had the whole statewide data set digitally and you just download it all the landownership data. So I go, oh, dude, just add that underneath. November November two thousand nine, I had downloaded the Montana and figured out way to shove that under as a layer as well, so you got private lands and public lands. But there you get into the thing where you're dealing with something that's change is constantly. Because at first, like your initial products like it's twenty years from now that ship is gonna be like basically right forrest there was land tends to State Forests land. I was thinking, hey, this is cool. We can with this type of product instead of like a paper map, we can actually update this like every year everybody's gonna want to update the hunting district. We had hunting district boundaries, and there we started having all the walk ins, like we need to update this every year. So we were in that mentality of like, this is cool because you you saw it as something that was gonna need gonna be updated every year, especially the land ownership data. As soon as I saw that and it's like, oh sweet, I'll download it once a year and right before hunting season, well update it. What was the first point in time that someone came in, like one of the big players, one of the big you know, g I s or GPS players or whatever. I mean you had to started getting people coming and trying to buy the company. Yeah. Man, that was even late two thousand and leve Oven Trimble Outdoors came by and made an offer, so they had the Cabella. They were napps app space back then. Yeah, yeah, Trimble Outdoors, like two thousand eleven that was t r E M b l E t r R I M. Trimble was that they had a great app there a little before the times. Like it's almost like Hunters hadn't adopted smartphones at the time. They did a great, great app out there and just wrong timing. I don't know, yeah, a little too early. Yeah, So when someone wanted like what was your when someone wanted to come by, like they come and make an offer on the company, were they saying like and you're going to come to or were they just want Yeah it was and it wasn't you sign a two year employment agreement type thing and you were you considering it? Uh? Yeah? But then it was like wait, all that for that money. I'm seeing how much we're growing, Like we'll be making that in two years, We'll be making that money, So why would I do that right now? What was the what was like the early growth like in percentages. It was crazy. It has like doubling and tripling. It's like quadrupling tripling. Then it just goes down to like doubling every year after about three years. I'd say, but yeah, we're talking quadrupling doubling in the first three years, and then it gets to doubling as you sign those national accounts Cabellas and Sportsmen, so you get that big jump the next year, and then then you just keep getting more growth, but not that big four x growth. So there's like so many sporting and stores. I was just thinking of the land ownership datas talk about Montana. Montana has the state wide cadastral data sets actually made it easy, sweet down a little, the whole stated standardized. Then I'm like, okay, this is awesome. Got the PLAT data. You're basically putting your PLAT books statewide into the product. Super sweet. Let's go do that elsewhere. And I started looking around and other states you can only go county by county, and sometimes they're charging like ten thousand dollars to get their PLAT data to get that county. So it's like, okay, who's charging that county? County is charging thousands and thousands, five thousand, ten thousands to get the data for what purpose? How's it not public data? It's it's public, but for commercial Don't they knew it was valuable? I think oil and gas companies at the time, we're trying it to go knock on doors. But there's other insurance companies that buy it, so there's already a marketable price set. Yeah, they knew it was valuable, and they figured they'd make some money on it. I guess, I don't know, somewhere free somewhere a thousand bucks on or ten thousand bucks? Were you going and paying the ones that were ten grand? Because you had to do it? We wouldn't do ten grand, but do we do a thousand? We do? Go to Washington. Is this it's got what eighty three counties or something? Fifty six counties? Yeah, a lot of them. Yeah, that's pretty typical. So five or six years ago, you know, we get a lot of feedback. Why don't you have my county? A lot of it was well, at that time, we couldn't afford it. Um. We had to prove out, you know, could we sell enough memberships in that state to reinvest the money to buy that last county or two that costs or some of the counties just don't even have it available. And that's still still the case right now. If they're more rural counties, they just still have Here, we got these plat books, but we don't have it digitized. So did you have to get into the process of digitizing some of this stuff. We never did. We just we saw the we would just expand other states rather than spend time digitizing a county that wasn't digitized already. So what's so, so let's say them in Colorado there's might be holes in it. Yeah, there's I don't know. Colorado probably still has one or two counties that maybe in eastern Colorado, southeast core owner. There's a couple of counties there, and I go to look and I might not find a landowner, the landowner names. You might have parcel boundaries or you might not have You just have public private, just as private in public camp And when people see that, are they pissed they didn't get what they paid for? Well, we try to make it clear, like here's our coverage map. You should know what you're getting before you buy it. I got you. But yeah, some people say, hey, you don't have my county, Like, oh, well, we'll work on it a time. I don't really care who owns it if like the personal no, you know, right, I just want to know like the same things, but like what you want to know. Back in the day, it's like am I cool or am I not? Yeah? I was on Yanni's property there day looking at his property. His name's up there. Get your name all updated. My wife's passed for some reason, her name didn't come there. We all this together. Oh yeah, they have these primary owners, second airy owner and all these fields that we got to try to standardize. And the GIS team does all that and makes it all look good, which is you wouldn't think about it. But county to county it's different, and you've got to like standardize the attributes and it's pretty cool stuff that they really should overres. So so how full Now you've you've got all the states? Have you hit one for? Like Hawaii is a hot seller? Not a hot seller, But what's the hottest selling state and what's the shittiest selling state? Matt knows all that Rhode Island they're not buying a lot because roll down, they don't care who owns it, not buying a lot um, who's hot? Colorado gonna be hot or not hot? Top five? Yeah, Montana, really Colorado, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania. Well there, you're just talking hunter numbers. Minnesota, Yeah, Minnesota, Pennsylvania. There, it's just there. You just got this. New York is really strong, Washington is pretty good. It's like top ten, it's five and five to the kind of Midwest East Versts Western hunting. Yeah. Yeah. And then uh so you filled out the whole fill out the whole country, yep, private, public, and then at this okay, like let's talk about right now. Mhm, right now you can you can use this the feed in the chronology. But okay, where are where are we in the chronology right now? We're still EARLI eleven twelve, Okay, so buying this thing? No, okay, So that's okay. So what other market group is starting to bet? Get curious? I mean even early on we're talking to a rural real estate agents there, like this has just changed the game for me. We're talking and I mean shopping for home my real he runs, he runs on their home everywhere he goes. He's walking around the thing I was like, oh, that's so, and so here's your property line. You go talk to that guy. People are using it for work everywhere. Utility companies were calling like, hey, we need this. Firefighting companies, the firefighters, the urban and BLM firefighters, the Force Service firefighters. They're needing to contact landowners sometimes to get permission to go be able to firefight on their their land. So like this is a godsend. We can look them right up and get permission and get out there and get ahead of the fire. So all kinds of game wardens. They simplified life that So yeah, that is like division, like nobody's done like a complete picture of landownership for the United States. Like keep it current, keep it accurate, keep it complete. And we're gonna go do that. And that's gonna be valuable to a lot of different people. And it is. Although we have it branded to a hunt this whole time, we would love we have. We have a ton of people using it for other things. But what are the percentages? I mean, yeah, definitely, and is the fish market anything. People are using it for fishing, but they likely they like behind it, find it through hunting their other passion, and then they use it for fishing, and then they use it for their work or whatever. But they're maybe finding it through their hunting passion or referral. Some people might just be a firefighter and they hear from other firefighters and they they're not a hunter, and they buy it. What year wasn't when you got your first office? That was two thousand and eleven. Matt was Matt was working from his house in Boeman and Bozeman. Holly was working from my house. Rob was working from his house. So but then late mid two thousand and eleven we got an office in Missoula, same office. We we expanded it, but we're in the same location. Yeah, that boy now in Missoula. So then big milestone. So ten eleven, people are even saying, hey, can can you get this on my iPhone? So like, oh jeez, people are calling saying that, like, let's start looking into that. So I start looking into that, and by we'd figured out I was really passionate about like the Googlers layering system, and I wanted that type of system in an app where you could turn on and off layers and be able to customize your map and be able to make smart decisions based on turning on and off different data sets. A geek out on that stuff. I probably shouldn't, but it worked out for people people like that. I know hunters who are serious about getting out there and being successful. They they're all about the layering. So figured out how to make that happen. And in two thousand July two thirteen, we launched the io s app I believe you called it on X Hunt. At that time we had rebranded our umbrella company to on X and had the Asian for like, hey, this is going to be useful for all these different markets. We got fishermen using it. We need an umbrella company that then you can have hunt and all these other activities for apps underneath it. And so who came up with on X. We actually all sat down at a table. The whole company at the time was like ten people like late and we sat down and we're like, okay, so what do we want what? We had all these ideas listed out and still have the dat of brainstorming. Out of brainstorming, it's like what's a what's the thing on a map that man? What's the spot? Like we're helping people get to what they get to their target? What is it will x X marks of spot right, and what are we doing. We're helping people get there and put you on. We helped put you on your target on X on x map x. And then there goes hunting GPS, Maps dot com and we kept that up with two more three, but keep the searching. It's so funny, man. It's like such a clumsy name. I remember so many times. It's like talking to people it's called honey dot com, you know, And we struggled to day with the naming over the years. I'll admit that, you know, it was probably like it was probably a good thing, but it's probably like the right thing, right, Maps dot com. Yeah, well, it's just the right thing at the right time. The search engine not that wave. When you put those words in your in your U r L, you get a lot of bonus from you know, search engines. That's why I put them in there, right, Hunting, maps, GPS. Well, as soon as the companies figure out the dang battery, there won't be any more GPS users. I feel like I used I used the microsds a lot of situations because um I can put lithiums, I can put three lithiums lithium batteries in a garment GPS and get days of use out of it. It's submersible. It can be outing around the build water in the back of my boat. I can save pluck that thing out of there, put it in airplane mode and use it wherever for four days. But the thing is in some conditions, phones are just kind of vulnerable. Man, They're not like that. Four or five days. He runs airplane. That's what I did last week, and I was getting to two days. Yeah, okay, that's how often you're using the screen. And but you're if you're out on like an eight or nine day trip. There are thing is you got to carry external batteries When I can just put six lithium batteries my backpack. It's like, I've been through this and I've thought through it a great deal. It's listen, the user experience of the product is insurpassable on a smartphone. Yeah, but there are situations you look at it's like so nice, right, it's way ahead of the air imagery. You got the big screen. Everything about it just looks everything about it, everything about what's nice about the big screens. You're finally like almost feeling like you're looking at an actual map. Like we still for every shoot we do, we have a giant paper map because we like to lay it out and be able to look at it and and be like, Okay, this is everything at once. And that's one thing that especially, I mean, I'm still rocking like a sixty two s garment right teeny tiny screen compared to Steve's Oregon or so that was better, but now this is even better. You're like, I'm like finally feeling comfortable enough and I'm like I'm getting enough um context around right where I'm at that I'm like, because the zoom function is not incremental. If you're doing it on a garment, you can like click up right and you pass by the scale that you're after, and it's hard. Yeah, you kind of like can get where you sort of like, have you contextualize yourself? Detail fades away? Yes, but you can on a smartphone, you can contextualize yourself in a broader contextual area than you can when you're using GPS. But I'm telling you in terms of not quite knowing where you're going, having a big breadth of space available to you when you didn't plan ahead to like get all your downloads right in destructibility and then just being able to run batteries for a long time. There's still something to be said for for a very small subset of individuals who are like people who are knocking, run on very long trips, and very hanging on. There's like it still has a home. You guys must know, right, I mean, the technology is coming right there where our phone last a week? No, because they won't do it. There's been expose s on this, that's the week. The battery, this is some this is something the cold. I'm not a I'm not a conspiracy dude. You know what I mean? You know, I mean for years I run the other direction from conspiracy theory. I don't believe in bigfoot nothing. But but people go get a new phone because they're bad. We went to shift on them. That's valuable to phone companies, right. I feel this is beyond. This is beyond like conspiracy. It's like it's like it is a conspiracy because the conspiracy is more than two people agreeing to do something. But you can still there's engineered obsolescence. There's engineered obsolescence and phone batteries. But if you make them last like seven days. They'll still probably after two years. That's true. Well then you're like, I still got three days on there. My wife phone, she can't get through lunch. Yeah, but you know it's dialed. And the other thing about it is the layering system is really nice, really nice you know to go tagle, but you wind up seeing how your brain works. Because I spent so many years looking at USGS quadrangles, I can like like that was always the map of choice for paper ma apps. You're when you're younger, starting out doing like expedition type stuff, it's like USG s quads and you get to where there's something that happens when when when you get to where you've started a landscape on a map and you go to the actual landscape, and there's always a moment when you sit, when you hit the ground and you have this moment of like, oh so that's what this looks like, right and you I don't know that you can get good enough at maps. I don't think you can ever get good enough at maps to look at those and then get to the place and not have oh so that's what this is like feeling. I don't think that that skill level exists. But what does happen over time is you get to where you can look at it. You can look at the ground in a general sense, and then they they meld in your mind to become sort of one and the same. And once you get a sense of the visual scale and what you're looking at, you can look at a quad, and a quad really makes ends point being. Now for me, if I'm looking at if I'm on on X on the smartphone and I look like I can, I get more out of looking at the top old lines. I get more out of looking at that than I do the aerial imagery. The aerial imagery ones up being more confusing to me than the very detailed fort you had to have near day all time. We we I think we shared on X whether we actually shared waypoints or not, but we had multiple phones out with other hunters that we were running into because we were in a hard to draw unit, right, Which is the weird thing about hard to draw units is that nobody's secretive. Everybody's like, yeah, I will ever be back here again. Here's everything I know. You look at all my waypoints. The first guy your owner hasn't even tagged out yet, and he looks at He's like, you want to know what's going on. But it was interesting that everybody else that we ran into was they would pull up and they were looking at imagery and they weren't looking at maps. And I had to request from different times to be like, do you mind you know? Hit a couple of times, I want to see what it looks like on the map, you know, and see because it doesn't make a lot of sense. It doesn't make a lot of sense unless you had that old yellow, yellow and green. My brother like years ago, he had that ship where you had the two maps and then that glass piece you slid around and it gave it a three dimensional quality. Don't you should look into that? You should make a little music. I think something you don't need to have the on X Museum. It's gonna be like the history of how hunters have used it. But you never seen those. There's two maps and an eye piece, a magnifying eye piece on a stand and put your head down looking at everything pops up into three D. It gives you a three dimensional few. But when you're running this aerial imagery, you can drop thousand feet and that there could be a thousand foot incline, you definitely have the need unless the sun was in the right position. I use the topo when I'm new to an area. Yeah you gotta see the contours and yeah, see what you're dealing with. This is propt way off what you want to talk about. This important. I was just thinking of, like in early years, how how I realized, like, man, if I get my way points from my garment and put them on Google Earth, I can learn an area so much faster, Like oh wow, it's that one spot seems like it's so far, but all I gotta do. I could come from this angle and like wow, it's just like right there. But you think if you really learn all the intricacies from like this road comes over here and this trail comes in here, like oh wow, studying that, I can get there easily if I just go around and then I come up this trail here, and then I can get to that spot where that bully ran or whatever. I think it's a much more sophisticated understanding. Here's the art. Thing you look at like a like a steep slope. Now you can look at all the aerial imagery in the world. You're not gonna see little benches where elk are gonna like to lay up. But you can see parks. Yeah, well yeah, that's okay, you gotta have the both. Okay, here, Yeah, there's the park, there's the beach, the park on blacktailed Deer. When you're trying to find musk eggs, you will not find a muskeg on the top of the map, even if it's got the vegetation colored in, You'll never find muskegs. You find muskegs all day long, just little open patches. Well they're actually uh dead lakes. Muskeg patches are like extinct lakes. But um, you can find those all days long with aerial imagery. So it really depends. If I'm hunting up in like coastal rainforest and I had to switch, I'd be like, Okay, I don't give a sh about the elevation. I just want to know where the patches are open patches. So yeah, one doesn't replace the other. But do you get what I'm saying. That's want to make sure the point is clear on something. Do you get what I'm saying about that? No matter how much you do, do you remember when we flew into that prop lake hunt moose up on the north shope of the Brooks Change. I had it in my head exactly what that looked like, Like I could in my mind walk around and then I landed on that lake. I'm like, that's what I've been looking at. Do you know what I'm saying? This is resonate with you at all. Yeah, but I'm guessing because you like your experiences, put of of of picture into your head that that you know, you just overlaid onto the map right Like You're like, oh, we're going hunting moose. So you who would think that we would land in a place where you're like, like the nearest moose habitat seems like it's miles and miles away. We're like up, yet we were dropped there to hunt moose, right, So you had a picture painted and it just didn't match up. Where's all the lily pads? Totally? Um? But yeah, the ah ha moments man of early GPS USE and then of early on x Use, It's just so many mind blowing moments of being in the woods and just being like, oh no, ship, Like these two parks are that close to each other where I could just like hop through the timber like fifty yards and I'd be and all of a sudden, I'm connecting you know, one park, and you like you realize that it's like, oh, it's probably actually like a very subtle old drainage, you know that's just connected in parks. You know, you can actually work it all the way up, you know. Yeah, that kind of stuff, and the way like yeah, like muskeg patches that linked together, just exploring country, just like I U see the same thing on Google Earth. I'd be like, park, never been there, get that pin into my GPS and walk in a straight line there, and then I'd figure out like the easy way to get there, right. But all of a sudden, it was just like new Country every time I went into the woods, New Country, New Country. We're down in This is a little off topic, Yeah, it's it's only kind of off topic. Actually, we're down South America in the jungle, and these guys fish a lot of ox Bowl lakes and they kind of know, I mean they've been you know, hundreds of years, thousands of years there. Family has been subsistence hunting and fishing in these areas and they fish these ox Bowl lakes. But when guys started going down with drones with cameras on them. Americans coming down drones and cameras, and they take those drones up both the jungle canopy. They started finding ox Bowl Lakes. They didn't know we're there off because they were never they're not on Google Earth. They're sitting there looking at the monitor being like, oh my god. Yeah, yeah, we just gotta watch a quarter mile in that direction and yet to go on an extra hundred yards. We know about some other leg that no one's ever fished before, full of fish. Yeah, so it's a funny realization. Yeah. We have stories of landowners who are now you know, they're the third generation or whatever, and they're like, well, Grandpa always told me that was our land right there, actually land, I better go take those nodress passing signs after. We have guys that are landowners that are really great like that, I gotta go take those signs off they had posted. They didn't know. They didn't know. I thought it was sometimes like they weren't paying taxes on it. I guess because you're getting a big tax bill for a bunch of land. Just thought that's what it did. Someone were like, I didn't know we had that forty straight over there. I thought that was so and so's or they found land they did, they didn't think No thought it was a neighbors and it was actually there. Well, I that's what I'd like. I'd like to some like some bit up to see I didn't know I owned. I don't know I own that whole mountain. Um, So where are we in chronology? Go ahead? Because fences, you know, in eastern Montana and everywhere around the west, fences were built a hundred years ago, and they weren't built necessarily on the property lines, and so they just kind of became the communal property boundary. You can ring your cattle up to here, I get the other side, and and this is where it was. But do you feel that you got Do you feel that your stuff is good enough? Um? The other day we had a thing where the fence was lying to us. Okay, is this is your stuff good enough? Where if you if something doesn't seem to make sense, would you personally I'm not saying you're advising people to do this, but if you personally like, here's the fence, which I normally would have acted like, well, that's obviously the border, but in fact it's seventy yards off? Is the technology such you would you be like instinctively like the fence is wrong, this is right. There's a lot of cases, most cases that data is going to be more accurate than like a fence line, But there's enough cases where that data is a little bit shifted to thirty ft two hundred feet that I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that soft feet is could be just off. But the angle of the property line, like if the fence, if you know, the property line is going and I need you that way perpendicular, but the fence line is crooked, like, well, you know, the fence lines off, But as far as where that property line could be, it could you know the straight line? You know, it could be within ten feet either way, you know, So I don't I wouldn't shoot an animal ten feet across the property line, but it's probably going this way and you're at a thirty degree angle, and you're like, oh, I can park and access this land, you know, but because seventy yards I definitely do that. Ye. But we have a ton of stories of people like I never knew where my pens were. I went out and went to the corner and started moving some dirt around and boom, it was right there. Yeah. I mean sometimes it's like right on. Most of the time it's right on. I found a lot of enough times it's can be thirty yards off, so I would say, no, you can walk right up on the panem and you're gonna get within five or ten ft. You know, it's it's spot on for my four pins to check on. Uh. Okay, back to the chronology a little bit. But I want to get to two things. I want to get to the future, because like, you're done now the whole damn country. So there's that Ye does it? Do you go global? What is it? And to like what happened where? And I know this because I read a press release, So it wasn't like I heard secret information. You guys took on like a like a partner in order to do something. So you're kicking ass just making it all go on your own. What happened? We got big visions to dominate the hunting market. We've got big visions to do a lot more in outdoor recreation and help more and more people get outdoors and have a great experience. Can give me, for instance, because I know that company guys always get like company guys always get where they won't want to tell you what you're talking about. A matter of fact, I pressured a company guy this morning and I got some info out of them. He was talking about testing new products, and eventually squeezed out of him what it was. So what would be a give me for instance? I mean, is it sort of like in the same vein or is it like you're gonna come out with a bootline. Definitely in the same vein of creating an awesome location experience and revolutionizing how mapping is done. So kind of going off yesterday, I wouldn't be surprised if we were able to finally show like this is definitely a public road and this is private road. But that's that's that winds up being like complicated because it's history right like us, Like, yeah, yeah, I'd like to. I mean, we need to make that easier for hunters. That's one thing I don't like about the product. Like I can scout everything else, but if I'm going to a new area, sometimes you can't quite determine if you can actually get to that piece, if that road goes to that public land, if it's actually not gated off or not but some people have been working on that because I was amazed when I called, I think it's Montana d n r C right the controls the state lands, and they had like in each office, they had a person that I could talk to and I could we I had my uh, guys, it's here open and we literally just went one after another, and the guy was like no, no, no, no, no, no no. Unfortunately it was all knows that day, but like he knew whether or not there was a he thought he knew. Because what we're finding now is people think they know, but you don't know because it's just passed down. He's not actually looked up from the legal records. So that's that's that. That's that fight that we were talking about with the High Loans some ranch fight is he would say, oh, yeah, that's private road, but other people are like, no, man, it might have been gated since nineteen seventy six, but it was illegitimately gated in nineteen seventy six or what have you. You know, but this guy's work on behalf of the state. And I was talking, Oh, I got you, but even then even it could have bad info. Will work with those agencies and we can actually say here's our landlocked public lands. You have regional field offices where you do have those experts, now tell us is it or isn't it landlocked? And can you and we talked about yesterday like the Eastmans go to look in looking to those eastments and so you might even be done like a research function, because is it fair to say that like at a point, what you've done is you've taken. You haven't gone out and created information. You've taken information, compiled it, made it usable, searchable, approachable, purchasable. I have created GPS accurate, complete picture of landing or ship. That's one of the big things that we did was take this public lands data, look at the private when we talked about that yesterday, look at the private parcel data, mess them together and is there a conflict? And usually those boundaries don't match up. The public lands data is like a little shifted off out of parcel data. So we because the PARCELTA has done by a county, we assume the parcel data is more accurate, and then we'll match those boundaries up to that parcel data and then we'll actually look through and look for these like timber companies that allow access to g S. Team will do all this research on nature conservancy, all these organizations that potentially might allow access. And now so they've we've created this data set where it's like it highlights these places where you should potentially have access, anything that's a government agency, county. So you've gotten into like interpretation. So we actually have this algorithm that goes through and pulls out all these owner names that we think likely give people access, including city government's count anything, anything going by a government. Because you're a taxpayer, you may have a right to be on that. They might have regulation, but we're gonna highlight that as here's city government, here's county government, here's BLM, here's forest service. They you might have a right to be on that property. Yeah. I remember one time going to a uh small government agency at the township level and pointing out a piece of land on the platte book, And remember the township commissioner telling me, I can't tell you you can go there, but I can't tell you you can't go there. We just talked about earlier. We went. We took that as a green light. Just like it's illegal decorn across, it's not illegal and it's not legal, yes, exactly. Uh, anything else? Any other future things people don't know about. Oh man, no one's on your No one's on your heels. Right, there's other apps out there, really scary ones. Are there's something really good that I should know about? Nope? Nope. Honestly, we're looking no matter what you're hunting, we want to have a product that will do something to help you improve your time in the field and make it more efficient. You know a lot of folks are hunting two days. We don't want you wasting time, whether it's finding access, finding where your trails or where your true stand is, your game cams, asking permission, or getting into these future endeavors and being able to pattern animals and organize your data or your experiences. So we're just looking to constantly improve people's days in the field. You're not looking to get into a social app? Are you no social app? Social media type? Because you know these new things, I like, I feel like it's not not gonna work. These new things like you go and you catch a fish and you make drop pins that I caught a fish here for public consumption. Yeah, dude, those people got it all wrong. Yeah, don't want to they're not giving away what you're telling I keep looking at it. There's a guy work with the keys sending me things about these things. But I'm like, man, is like the guys I know about are gonna be like, well, I'm sure I'll look at everybody else that's I'm not putting my stuff, but sure if he wants to tell me that. But you do have your group, so there's a community aspect as far as you have your group. So well, that's what one thing we want to do is you can create your groups for certain things, certain activities. And imagine you have this hundred sixty acre piece and Wisconsin or whatever, and you've got all your tree stand locations, You've got all your trail, You've got all your trails that go in the way you want them to go into the tree stands, and you can say this is my group. I got a new guy coming in. He just came in at midnight, but I need him to get to that tree stand in the dark. I'm gonna share this data and then I'm gonna let him take his app like this augmented reality style and just make sure he stays on that trail when he's walking in to that tree stand. He doesn't even have to do this. Bob's gonna be here, Dog's gonna be there, coming this way, look that direction. Coordinate all that augmented reality. Yeah reality, So that would be that there would be like, uh, it would look like a fake. Like you see the lion. Yeah, he's holding it up and he's seeing this line. That's all he has to do is like he doesn't He's looking at a photo before he's taking the photo through his lens and there's a line. Yeah, there's a line, and he just has to like if he goes off, it's not going to show the line anymore. And he goes back there and you can see the line. So he doesn't have to know how to navigate even a map. This makes navigation totally stupid simple when you can do that, and it's like okay, it's you're gonna have to go out and four aim in the dark. I know you've never been there, but all you gotta do just make sure I'm staying on that line. You're not gonna answer this, honestly, I'm gonna ask anyway. Um, and you guys can ance this. Do you ever lay in bed at night and think, what have I done? Because what have I done? Because I'm slowly destroying woodsmanship. When I think about those future visions of like Matt, when I think of maps, I think, yeah. I mean when our kids when they think of maps, they're not going to think of like this paper map and they're not going to have that. But we're gonna make navigation simple. It's gonna be stupid simple. And yeah, I guess it's gonna it's gonna destroy woodsmanship, but I don't know. I think we can still pass that on to our kids, Like, Okay, now I'm gonna take your phone away from you. You make sure you can get back to the truck, because in case there's an apocalyptic scenario, you might need to know how to do this. The other day, I was out when I was out on Yanni's property looking around. We're just looking around for red squirrels and I have my boy with me, and I'm trying to figure out you know, Yanni's like, uh, his you know, his vast acreage, right, and my kids get annoyed. They're old enough not to know when you're paying attention to him or not paying attention to him. And he was registering some confusion because here we are, we're out looking for pine squirrels. But Dad's dicking with his phone and I keep him like he's like looking at me, and I'm keeping it listen. I just trying to figure out. I don't want to stray over around the neighbor's place, you know, And I've never been up there before. And he was kind of having like are we doing this or not doing it? Like what are you doing work? What is it? You know? And maybe like I had this like funny feeling that I wouldn't have had in another situation. But again, there I am choosing to do it, and and like, you know, you're gonna go in that direction, but I do. I am. I am aware of there's a lot being gained, there's a lot of being gained, but there's always something being lost. But then here's the other part, the flip side when I look at it, the flip side is I like to have more information because it increases my understanding of the natural world. We use fish finders. There's a point in time I've even hear people say, oh my god, you guys and your fish finders. Okay, when I first when we first bought a place, in Southeast Alaska fish shack. We were using old nautical charts, which gave you really it had just basically like soundings, okay, and my understanding of the contours of the of the surrounding ocean, what worked and didn't work fishing, was based on just these really shitty little sounding marks. So later when technology came in and we started getting basically there, we used of the sudden, you guys are ever get into um like good marine art, marine charts, there's no ownership issue, but like great marine charts on a GPS unit to have like all the bath metric data, all of a sudden, you're like, oh, that's why there's hell of it here, or here would be a great place to go and try to catch a yellow eye. Or I bet you salmon come pension through here when they're moving here to there. So the old timer will be like, oh, you whatever, can't you know this and that? And you're cheating it's a big crutch. But you'd also be like, but listen, I now have this like much more nuanced understanding of like what's going on and things that used to see mysterious and strange and and and like ship luck now kind of makes sense to me, and I understand what the ocean does now better. So is it that I lost something or did I gain something through technology? Right? I don't know the answer. I do you gained something? And I think the argument against because I heard it too as soon as I got my GPS, and I think I was the first one in hunting camp to have one. None of the other guys did. And yeah, I just got shit about, you know, cheating this, that and the other. But what I realized quickly is that like once you located that new park and you went to that new park two or three times using your GPS, the next time you don't bring it out again, and so then you're you know, learning it all, you know, and taking in the trail and the surrounding topography, and you know, maybe the tree you didn't notice earlier when you were looking downt your GPS, that is a tree that you can sort of remember your trail by. But like, eventually you still come to the same understanding of that landscape. It's just a little bit faster. And I don't know if that necessarily takes away from woodmanship skills, and it kind of makes you expand, it helps you jump outside of your immediate comfort zone and gives you the confidence to go check out new places, which adds your understanding and appreciation for fort en. What it doesn't do for people, and this is gonna probably stay the same for a long time, is it doesn't increase the stamina of your legs and make you want to walk any farther. And so you know, like that's the big thing that gets more people into the woods deeper. So no matter how much you can know and how much is supposedly opens up like you gotta walk. They're working on a product, but a lot of people, a lot of people probably used to just be like, this is my spot and this is that's all I do. Because I know this, people, you expand your horizon and be like, oh, I'm confident now to actually go drip up a lot of access and probably dispersed some hunters out to other properties or pieces they weren't access Definitely dispersed everybody just went to the same trailhead because it was marked. Here's the trailhead. It now like actually park a mile down the road where the fourth service touches the road and hiking up this ridge on an unmarked trail unmarked trailhead and cut everybody off an hour, you know, get in there an hour earlier, and then people walking up the trailer or whatever. But other ways to to use it. So more and more people parked alongside the highway during hunting season, like, oh yeah, there's one on the interstage going over the bat pass. There's a guy and we'll I mean we'll hear it from you know, our customers. There's folks who you know, they have all this equity, all this time spent where they found these honey holes or access sites, and then where everything that's wrong with hunting. You know, we open this up to everyone else. But as you said, you still have to hike up the mountain. You still have to a good shot on me, you have to find the animal. I mean, you still have to get it done. But what's funny is we get these guys saying we're the worst thing for hunting, and we're opening up all this opportunity for everyone else, and then we look and most likely not always, they have our products when they're using it. The other guy. Yeah, absolutely, But I occupied this, like I occupy that, or in every aspect of life, I like see both sides of stuff crippling degree. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean they spent time they learned it. You know, I would be frustrated as well, but it is satisfied. You know. Animal hunting, I went and hunted a place I had never been found a couple of pieces of state section that my cousin actually found because of our product. But I would have drove by it. I would have never looked at it and ended up having a couple of goats on there and hunted for a morning and shot one. Never been there, you know, might not ever go back, but that's experience, you guys. Silicing wedding ring, Yeah, good man, I'm not gonna get de gloved. No, you know that's what it's called when you bring off your hand your skin gloves A great word, isn't it. That's not why you wear it during hunting season. Yeah, to prevent just you don't want to get de gloved or you don't want to have a clicking noise when you grab something metallic. Uh, it's not for you. A little bit of both shooting the gun. I do a lot of bird hunting. So yeah, what's your ring made out of? Nor? I'm married? I'm married? Really? Yeah? What's going on there? Any prospects early. We'll put a plug in for you right now, man, we we'll we'll, we'll put it a plug in. I've got a lot of plugs. I don't know if man, they ever comes of it. You want to put a plug in for yourself? I don't know. I have a girlfriend at the moment. Okay, well let us know zax on Instagram. Z Yeah, there's a plug because we just give your phone on it where you tend to hang out. Let's see what rolls. Love to hear that it worked. No one that hasn't worked for they can find me there and fall maybe not. I't traveling a lot there, so, um, what's your wedding man of it's a deep glover. It's got gold and platinum. Okay, it's all right. Uh it's a good idea though. When you grab your bow click, I've got a tungsten one because for a regular season, don't wear that. When you burn your hand or get deep glove. They got to use the uh they got vice gript to snap it off. You have to crush it off, yeah, because it doesn't can't cut it with a drum telling you what, maybe I won't put it back on. This is like my my mission life. Two missions in life. One get people to switch to these, to get people to have kids, to keep their guns locked up and keep tuggar locks on them, save your finger skin. You got young kids six and two and one coming in the next two weeks, and you got to kids five, five and three, five and three, and I'm guessing you've got none. Yeah, um, anything anyone wants to add. This has been a great conversation. Man. It's funny because I've been I've been watching it all, like watching all but not you know, I mean, just like catching little like if you're someone's watching the movie and you pass through the room now and then you start getting kind of like a basic layout of what's going on in the movie, but there's a lot you missed. It's filling in all those holes. So we took on those investors, which we found great partners in growing the company and for the World Domination World Domination, it's it's we're gonna try to go big. We see a huge opportunity in the outdoor recreation space and a lot of potential there. So if you're doing something in a city, you know you're used Google restaurant streets directions. But if you're going in the outdoors like camping, hunting, fishing, yep, it'll be all X checking your properties anything there where Google maps ins on X begins like that. Yeah, I like that, but then I don't know if you want to have their name in there. Yeah, it's just because someday you might be buying those guys. That's true. Um yeah, any uh, final thoughts, oh man, just thanks to all our customers, and thanks to you guys for your support and really appreciate what you guys do. Excited for our partnership coming up. Yeah, man, going forward. I mean yeah, we were talking about this earlier with the final thoughts and they're like, oh man, we gotta think something. But honestly, for me, it's like you knew that a conclud but for me this is this is surreal because you know, I grew up watching your show and everything to be sitting here talking about it. I grew up using on X and it's great and just seeing where we've come. Really not to play off erics, but it is our customers. You know, we get their feedback positive and negative, but we have what ten customer service folks working in there, taking parcel ayres answering questions all that, you know, different ideas for features, whatever. But we listened to them all. We appreciate them all, even the bad ones, and it just helps us make it. You know, they're the boots on the ground for us. Has a customer ever had an idea? You're like, wow, that's a great idea. Oh, I'm sure I don't. I haven't had my specifically, I want to use this on my smartphone and make it. Yeah. Yeah, But I mean it's been great and looking forward to the years to come. What employee number were you? I was forty six, so we got one two and forty six? Yeah three? Oh sorry, one one, three, forty six and now we're what a hundred right now? You any concluders in the brand speaking to new CEO? That's information? Yeah, awesome, new CEO excited? Any concluders concluders? Yeah, you guys kind of nailed the customer that was mine. But we've just been super customer focused since the beginning. But I think the one thing I've learned is just, um, how kind of precious our time is outdoor? So back to like, are we taking away from the Woodsman ships. But you know everybody has such a busy life now with kids and families, and you go through different stages of your life. When I was in grad school, I could go hunting every day, every night, just check out of town and have a lot of time. But now as you have a family, times more precious. So just using our using a tool or something like this just to to really maximize your time in the field. We've just um I had a lot of success and helping people. You only have so many vacation days a year. You got to balance on between family vacations and going hunting and just helping people get out there. Have that kind of twenty years of knowledge and twenty minutes kind of like our internal slogan like I can go anywhere new gives people a knowledge to go to a new states, apply for new states, go explore, and U feel confident, have fun in the field, not feel that pressure that they're gonna be trespassing or have a landowner confront them or get in trouble from a game warden. You know, people are going out hunting to enjoy, spend time with their family and friends. So just super proud to have a product that helps people really enjoy their time in the field. So yeah, it would be fun to work at a place like that. Man. Yeah, yeah, we love hearing the stories. Keep them coming, I mean what keeps us going. Our team goes really hard to make these products for people and and we we get stories where you guys are like, h I would never had this experience if I hadn't had that product, and it just keeps us going hard and we love it, so keep them coming. Yeah. Yeah. We actually have like every two weeks, we have a company get together and we read positive and negative every two weeks from a customer that we'll get in what's gonna do. Yeah. Yeah, We've enjoyed just reading the ones since we started working with you guys that we've got and then we just send them through our Slack channel where all our employees can see them and they read them. So you guys send them to us, and we just sent them straight to everyone working on the product. I've got an idea because this is your concluder. Yeah, because I'm at home and I'm on on X, I'm like, Damn, that spot looks sweet. Should like to go check out that spot? Look at that? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so what I need from you guys is like an app that sort of replaces me at work for a few hours and then at home so that I have that time work. Yeah uh no, thank you guys for coming by. Yeah, thank you guys. We appreciate it. That was fun, man. You guys have to come back more off in all the word like neighbors. Yeah. Absolutely, definitely, we can talk about maps. That was fun. Yeah, and I want to I gotta. We gotta interview nineties seven more employees. Yeah. I gotta talk to our GS team and learn about all the stuff they do. It's really cool. I got a ton more questions, so parts it out all right, Thanks Stevie.