00:00:08 Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely fog bitten in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything here. Here's something that came up there. They are machine. Yeah, we should introduce everyone. We kind of have alright, we've got into like okay, so Ronald f Ronnie Bam and Ronnie and Ronnie UM. Being in the trades and having employees, Ronnie's name is usually preceded by Evan only by my employees, not clients, by which you and your brothers are several of my ex employee And when I worked there, we would always say Ronnie, UM, Ronnie. But you never said to my face, no, have two. I was brought up, was not brought up that way. I was brought up to talk bad about people behind the back. That's my Midwest upbringing um your honest tell us. I got Yanni, A guy rode in to say that if you go into um some voice things, some voice recognition thing and say Janice Poodles, it'll say, did you mean j honest tell us? Yeah, he thinks you must be famous. Won how many times he tried that voice recognition? Yeah, Janice Poodles? Now yeah, because When I go to have my car call you, I have to say call Janice, poo tell us and then it pulls you up if I they call y honest, doesn't know what I'm talking about. Doug durn Here I am and Rufus Wolf. You got it, Russell Wolf? You got a brother rufus roof, rufus roof like the one on your house. Uh, the one over this hotel in Sue Falls, South Dakota. Uh, Doug, what we we were talking about this yard day and I made a mistake, And man, did we get a lot of dudes right? And in about um the correction, I said that the biggest white tail ever killed, and I gave the wrong place. Do you know the answer? You'd being a white tail feller? Um? You know? I don't. I do, but I don't. I can't. I can't think of it. Yeah. Dirkin drives around on Drkin's truck. Do you know that Dirkin has decales of the world's biggest white tails on his truck. It's like sticker cutouts, doesn't everybody in Wisconsin? He keeps the next his his packers sticker raid around the packers sticker are big giant white tail bucks. I never made the connection there. You don't know about the Milo Hanson about the Ohio Skatchew one. Right, it's a scatch one. I had said that it was shot now bird And this guy says, among several other fellas, says this is incorrect. The world's largest typical white dale white tailed deer was shot in Saskatchewan by Milo Hanson in and five eights inches. This guy also goes on to say, like we get, We get people annoyed all the time because like when we'll talk about various calibers, we don't talk about the three o eight. This guy goes on to say, it's interesting to note that two of the top three world record typical white dale deer were taken by three oh eight winchesters. And he goes on from there to say, this is why I call my three o eight the big giant deer a tractor. It's a long name for a caliber. That was the thing I want to bring up another Still, I'm gonna drop coincidence on that one. Un coincidence. I think coincidence too. Uh. We get because because we acknowledge corrections. Um, there's some podcasts if they acknowledged corrections, they wouldn't have time for the podcast because there's there's a lot of new shows too out there. We wouldn't have time for the new show if they had to sit around. Yeah, so we um because we acknowledge corrections. I think that it generates a lot more corrections. It's like a Yeah, it's like a snake eating its tail. Two. I had said, how Petty's American Girl. I'm looking at you, ducks. I know you like uh, you're like a music feller. Um. I had said, because I had always heard that American Girl was based on a suicide of a student that in Gainesville, Florida, the Gators. I'd always heard that. This guy wrote in and said, it's complete horseship. It's not about a girl. There was a suicide. It's not about that girl. U Um, it's urban legend. Petty talked about it. This guy says, I'm not trying to rag on you, but you ought to know. It's more of a composite or something. It's just not it's like he wrote a song. I had always heard us about this girl killing herself, and if you listen to it, you can kind of see she was a girl. Yeah, and she could hear the cars roll by and all four or forty one and for one desperate moment, Oh god, it's so painful, right one could see. Um. I think it was Sammy Hagar that once said that his lyrics are someone will crack me on this. I think I'm guessing. I think it was sam When he listens to a song and he thinks he knows what they're saying and later learns that they're saying something else, he just takes what he thought they were saying and makes that his song. That's how he writes songs. Maybe, Yeah, it's a great idea. I think there's a U two song where in it he said a few broken bones and some loose change, which I thought was like a great title for a book. That's not what he says that later looked it up and it was. And the Gota davida, you know what he's saying in the Garden of Eden. But that's where it became one and the same. Um, now just gonna blake. Look at his face. He's gonna his blank look is not going anywhere soon. Because there's a couple of other things like we got into, like we just happened to cover some stuff that wound up generating like a lot of clarifications. We had talked about the whole all right, Yanni explained, do this be honest. I want you to. I'm gonna test your abilities explain corner hopping. Oh, that's easy, okay, and then while doing it, I invite you to to just describe it. Um, you go into the aerial space discussion. That's where I'm leading with this because we got into like a legality issue, which we can't start. No. We talked about two things in one, you're still you're not off. The you're still gonna explain corner happening. We had a guy right in with a thing where he's saying, and this is something Yanni has done. You're standing on private land, you're standing on public land, and you're looking across an expanse of private land you do not have permission on. And on the other side of that private land is more public land upon which stands one's target being deer or whatever. And you shootouch and your bullet flies over the dude's land that you don't have permission on. Is that legal? Yanni's actually done this? No, I was almost almost did it. I probably maybe have I don't know. Um, no, I don't know. And uh that that led into a discussion of the problem with corner hopping, and you, honest will explain corner hopping. Yeah, one minute too. We put the airspace question like, can your bullet fly across land you don't have permission to be on? Can your bullet trespass? We put the airspace question to a game warden in Idaho and said he said, in idho that would be legal. But it prompted a lot of listener feedback. Now Yanni will step in and explain corner hopping and how it relates to what we're talking about. Yeah, corner hopping is is in a checkerboard and landscape of where you have different land management and owners. And the easiest way to look at that is imagine a checkerboard and all the black pieces are state, public or federal, all the red red squares are private, so every four corners you have two black and two red. Touch Corner opping would be that if you're on the public the black, you would just step over and through the airspace and onto the other black you get onto another section in the game of checkers. Yeah, okay, um, but I think in most states, Well, I don't know. We'll get into it here because because it's it's it's tricky. Yeah, and I only think we're gonna resolve it today. I think it's gonna be an ongoing thing. We're want to have some experts on to talk about it. There is no resolution. There's no resolution, and which which we'll discuss in the minute. So, um, you have to explain it well enough for you. Yeah. Yeah. So people are basically saying that, no, you can't corner hot because although you're not touching my land, you're going through the airspace above my land when you corner hot. Okay, Joel, go ahead, du question, let me let me I stop the Irish question of oh, already know what it is because I think it dude brought it up, or dude that road In brought it up, the idea that because I want to check something, all right, roof, did you follow that? Oh? Absolutely? Really? Oh yeah for sure. And I could argue I could go from red to red without infringing on any black space. It's white, isn't it. Well? He used black and red. Really on a checkerboard, it's black and red. Chess is normally black and white. All right, Yes, theoretically one could step from Okay, go ahead, dug a tree. So a tree is growing on your property line and the branches and it's on the neighbor's property. But those branches are hanging over your onto your land or onto your not your land, onto your space, into your over your driveway, onto your house. Can you cut those branches off? Oh? Yeah, I used to be an arbor's well, that's why I knew that. As I've been involved, I've been up in the tree as the neighbors argued that. I've looked down at the tops of head the tops of the heads of individuals engaged in such argument with the chainsaw idling. And yeah, oh, speaking of chainsaws idling, my um, I told my kids the story of one your dad chopped himself open with the chainsaw. Why would you tell your kids that story? Yeah, don't know why, But you know what part they like a lot is the part I like that You told me that that your old man, um, you know, like, drives himself to a bar, he gets met of act and later someone goes out to retrieve his stuff. It's like an ad for the chainsaw. What kind of saw? Was this a home? Later they go out to retrieve his dad's stuff out in the woods where he like fingers no no, yeah, and the saws laying there on the woods. What what? What? What? Still? That's the punt that they love that detail. But I thought you when you started to say that, I thought, well, he's gonna teach them the lesson. Of of course they're a little young for it. But I've always have your vehicle pointing out because you never know when you're gonna need to leave in a hurry. You know, I can't remember how I got into it, and they don't have They don't drive yet, the oldest being seven. Yeah, but you know what their bikes, they could start your scooter or leaving faith because that time Steve's checking everyone, did you back your bike in? Alright, go downstairs? Um. Yeah. They like the part that the saw was still all the woods running, and they bring it up all the time. Yeah, they like the story about a good saw, all right. Joel Webster from t RCP, We're still on this corner crossing correction. It's not a correction. Clarification, he writes in to say, in regards to your discussion about corner crossing, it's a legal gray area. The State of Montana's access guide says it is not recommended. It doesn't say that it is illegal. He's never heard of anyone being cited by it, cited for it, but they do not recommend it. I email some guys who worked for the state government of Wyoming and he goes on to say it is not there definitive either, and there's no specific statute on the book. However, the attorney general in the state's Attorney General in two thousand four reviewed it and said you might not be able to do it. It's as close as they've come. So some legislators because because he's saying that you the cornerlines are infinitely thin and there's no way to cross without entering private airspace. Some legislators have attempted to introduce bills directly authorizing corner crossing, or others have introduced legislation to specifically prohibit it. Neither gets much attraction with lawmakers. County attorneys rarely, if ever, try to prosecute for corner crossing unless it's adding to a list of additional offenses to use as a settlement chip. He can't, this guy can't, and this guy's an attorney, he can't remember the last time he saw someone actually convicted of corner crossing. That said, it's wildly understood as impermissible in Wyoming. Um. He goes not permissible, not permissible, and the check He goes on to say how the checkerboard areas have allowed to do with how the railroads were structured and funded, And he says that the inability to jump corners prohibits access to literally hundreds of thousands of acres of public land. So there's that another guy question. I mean this happens to bird hunters constantly. I mean you, I mean, it doesn't even happen to mountains too much. But we we've been doing it forever. Corner crossing, Yeah, because the corner What states have you corner hopped in South Dakota, North Dicote all the time. But is that private land to private land? Yeah, it's private in the private land. But I don't see that. What oh you mean corner hopping over another dude's private right right that you don't have permission on? Don't have permission? How do you know your boots in the right spot? We just do it well mathematically, You're you're gonna be stepping on somebody's land, right, if you don't unless if there has to be a corner post there and you've got a good you've got a GPS, you could do it right. But you know when we when the farmer gives us like hunt at eight and then the next one over is mine too, And you can tell they're butted only on the corner. They're made by the same fence. You you know, Yeah, they're butted on the corners. And we don't even go in the corner. We go to the nearest post words safe, and so we're just but our intention isn't a hunt on that person's land. Our intention is to get to that next piece of property. I put it to a guy in Idaho fishing game officer in Idaho um Idaho Code thirty six DASH thirte known as Recreational Trestpass. The keywords are no person shall enter the property of another and then there's criminal trustpass. And he says they would ultimately if one were to do this like you've done it, and and the the guy that owns the land would get piste um. He says, it's probably if this sort of happened in Idaho, it's probably gonna come down to the members of a jury, and they haven't had to. They haven't had to. No one's been got it that far. Where was interpreted? Do I say it's legal? He says, until it's challenged in the case you know it goes to court. It's uncharted territory. I'm surprised to hear all this because like the way you're told, you know, and it's spelled out, everybody thinks that you cannot do it. Not recommended, but it's not well, it sounds like I think that in in Wyoming. I think he's saying that I can see so so we had not one of our camera guys heard us talking about this, and he wrote into and he got into this thing where like how much air do you own above your property? And he said the Supreme Court acknowledged that the air above your property um extends at least up to eighty three ft because the Air Force was flying planes buzzing low over a guy's place and scared a bunch of his chickens to death and he won a lawsuit for them infringing on his thing. Rick thinks it's more likely to be to be, you know, about five feet the Supreme Court hasn't explicitly accepted that as the for a limit of property ownership, but it's a useful guideline and trespass cases, which your damn bullet isn't that high? Your bullets five five ft off the ground, or if you're leaning over, if you're leaning over the fence, can can you use that person spent post for a rifle rest? Yeah, So the military is found to be violating a guy's property rights by buzz and aircraft over it. So the fact that you can buzz bullet over it um in this case. So you need to be limiting someone's ability to enjoy their property. And I could see that someone would say bullets flying around on my property limits my ability to enjoy it. And the fact that they killed his chickens or whatever, to you know, it's a loss of property. So see, I could tie that into another scatter gun thing. You're allowed to hunt the ditches here in South Dakota because we're tying us into South Dakota. In South Dakota, so it's legal to hunt the ditches in South Dakota even if it's private property, because because the it's a right way, it's a right away. They don't mind you shooting that close to the road, is there. Yeah, there's rules about unimproved unimproved roads, unimproved roads not not blacked out. Yeah, you're common road. In South Dakota, you know, gravel road. So that's totally legal. I guarantee it. I'm not doubting. But now in North Dakota it's the opposite. North Dakota, you cannot hunt the ditch unless you have permission of the landowner that it butts the ditch. But my point is state to state difference. Stay state different. But my point is, so when we're ditch hunting pheasants, they come out and they fly. They don't usually fly right down the road. They fly out into private property and we will shoot them, and you have to get permission to retrieve. In some states you have to get permission to retrieve the pheasant. Let's just use pheasant free the analogy. Do you have to get permission or in some states you've gotta You can't have your gun without firearm. Without firearm, you can walk in and get get it without permission, but some places you have to have permission. But what I get in at is the propellant, the bullets the babies. They're damn sure going over that's my point, thank you. They're landing in his property, not even going over it. You are littering lead into his property. That think it's always legal because you're shot is always landing exactly especial as we have another question guy, that's throw it in about but I'm not going to get into that one right now. So it is interesting, but you're you're putting lead into somebody's dog. I just want to know what you what you're as a substantial landowner. What's your opinion on the corner? You don't I know because I know your property lines that you don't have that instance. But let's just say that you had locked up forty acres of Wisconsin state land in the middle, but there was a corner to get in there. It seems fine to me. You know, I'd prefer that somebody came and asked. But you know, hey, is this gonna be all right? Yeah? Well everyone would prefer that. Want to ask everybody everything right? But uh yeah, I don't think that's you know what I mean, if it's state land, it's state land. You know. Being the kind of guy I am, might probably put a little access corridor across my property to it. Nice little dove climbing. Because that see this issue going to write in and say bullshit, I know, Durham. Well, this issue really starts to make its own gravy because here's this. A guy writes in from Alaska and this gout, This subject got him thinking. He writes in from Alaska. He explains that he is moose hunting on the Kenai Peninsula and he's on just like let's just say, like a general public land and his back is to a state park in the state park. And like most states, you can't hunt state parks, but some states there are some state parks you can hunt. And this is a state park in Alaska where you can hunt. You cannot discharge a firearm on it. It just as in the state park. It's archery only same rags apply, same bag limits and seasons apply, just no firearm discharge, so you can bow hunt it. He's sitting on which is I don't know what it was. Let's say he's on state forest with his back to state park, looking out this way to kill a moose on state forest with his rifle. Turns around. Biggest blackberries has ever seen is twenty yards out of the state park. He doesn't shoot because he's like, you can't shoot a gun. You can't kill him in there with a gun. He comes home as oh Man is on his case because he's like, you didn't You would not have discharged a firearm in the state park. You would have discharged the firearm in the state forest. The bear died in the state park from a firearm wound, a firearm wound, but you didn't discharge your gun there. You you should have shot the bear. He says. I've never even bothered to all Alaska Fishing Game because there's no way they'll give me a straight answer. So I call Alaska Fishing Game and right away I make the mistake of saying, like what I do for a living. And so then I had to deal with the public affairs person and I get to explain it to him, the thing, and they refuse. They're like who, And I'm like, it's just a guy. What year? But he didn't do it? And I'm like, he didn't do it. He's just a guy. And then I got frustrated, and I grew frustrated and I'm like, hey, let's just say hypothetically we don't deal in hypothetical laws. I'm like, come on, man, that's how far I got with that. Well, that's a bummer because they really sometimes kind of pride themselves on having it spelled out in the REGs that you don't have hypotheticals and white. Well, they said, you gotta tell me the year in the exact location. That's pretty black and white. But I mean, I just feel like it's would be possible. You know, sure I could. I would have had to tell him the year in the exact location, which I didn't have from the guy. I could have wrote the guy, he's listening right now. You'd had to provide all that extra detail. But it just goes to show. But if you might recall this sign that's on my friend on the land next to my friend Tyson's property, it says, do not shoot into these woods. Of course, we've now made a sign on the opposite side that says do not shoot out of those woods. But I wonder about that too. You know, the same idea. It's a private land issue. Okay, one more of these things, one more of these things. We gotta take care of the whole thing we're talking about with, like, hey, a guy writes in and he says, I live in a state where you can't bait, no salt licks, no mineral licks, nothing but ranchers put him out for cattle. So can I sit over that I didn't put it there? Right? Lots of it depends, that depends. So lots of people wrote in about this. Um. Now this guy points out an interesting thing to just happened in Alabama. In Alabama, formally you could not hunt over bait. They clarified loosened this law recently and changed to say THEO this is what the law says. There is a rebuttal assumption that any bait or feed located beyond one yards from the hunter and not within the line of sight of the hunter is not a lure. So he says, now people have taken to putting a large hay bale one hundred yards from their blind and putting bait beyond the large hay bale. O God, because it's I'm hundred yards away from it, and it's out of my line of sight, and I'm a pretty good shot up to a hundred fifty yards. Yeah, and I know if the head's sticking out of that and I see its tail I know where those vitals are. This guy had gripe. Okay the whole That guy is great for a minute. This guy. That led to a conversation about if you're out hunting and you, um, if you're out hunting you kill a deer, say, and you're in a you're in a no baiting state. You're in a no bear baiting state. When you kill a deer and the bear starts eating the deer carcasses, that baiting. I said, no, This guy says, depends where you are. He was hunting and he's from British Columbia. They were out hunting moose in northern BC. They had jet boarded Upper River to their moose camp. Their bodies have been in there a week before and they had killed a moose across the river from camp. You could actually see the carcass and guppile from the camp. These guys had a grizzly tag. This is before the recent uh bann on grizz hunting in BC. And halfway through their hunt, a British Columbia game warden shows up in a helicopter to check them out. He's checking them out. They explained they had a grizzy tag. And this gentleman informs them that it would be illegal for them to shoot a bear on that kill, and that would be regarded as baiting a bear since it was a hunter killed carcass. If that moose had died of natural causes, it would not be baiting. That was the interpretation from the law or just these guys, apparently that's the interpretation the law. A hunter killed carcass is regarded as bait. A naturally killed carcass is not all right. We put that to bed kind of in Colorado here, Okay, Colorado, you can't bait bears, but you're a okay if you if you kill a bear off of your own gut pile this guy. This is the last thing on this issue. This guy had real gripe with how we were saying ranchers use them use the salt licks. He said, he'd like to point out that, um, you just oftentimes these salts and minerals are distributed by ranchers in order to keep cattle away from vital riparian areas to keep and you brought this up. You put a salt lick out in order to um congregate animals and your fences does all making sense, Doug, you run a couple of cattle, Yeah, I run a few cattle. You put salt out for him. I put white salt and trace mineral salt. Like the salt. I have it close to the building, so I don't really get too many deer right down to the buildings. But yeah, no, of course you're like salt. But um, yeah, the purpose for doing it is, I mean, it's a health thing one they like salt and the trace minerals. It's what do you play some strategically. It doesn't matter in your location. You're not dealing with vast acreages. And I put them close to a place that I can back the truck up to carry it very far. And they're heavy. Right. Does anybody here know Haywood Banks, the musician Haywood Banks. Don't. Do you have young children? You should look up Haywood Banks. I don't have young children. Yeah, such hits as Um, I'm looking at the world through flies eyes. Dead puppies aren't much fun. Do you think you know what I've been saying? I think maybe someone else saying dead puppies aren't much fun. I was gonna bring up because ny Ronnie, I want to talk about the dogs, the dogs, the dogs with you lost, I've not surprised breeding age. Yeah, dogs from my kettle brock it Italian animals. Yeah, two of them and one felt swoop and one. Is it best your pro Is it best to get into this into this tragedy? Is it best your approach through the lens of monetary value or through the lens of emotional value? Both? Let's start with what you want to start with? Emotional, Yeah, emotionally laid out from you emotional Emotionally, we'll talk about the strange circumstances under which these dogs perished. So emotionally, your dogs become part of your family, just like kids. At some days you like some of them better than others, but you'll love them all. So the loss of the dog is a loss, is a personal loss. So that's the emotional part of it. And the traumatic part of it then is the way in which they die. There's different. Like an example, I gave a German short hair puppy to Rusty all of years ago, how many years ago? Twenty? Hello, you guys been friends about four but late night and back up you gave him what I gave him a short hair puppy German short hair puppy one he couldn't sell because it had but you weren't a breeder then, not a breeder, recreational breeder, recreational breeder and and uh his dog died at age six. When the dog wasn't he brought it up to my place, no blind and we went to the vet. And even though I hadn't, I mean I saw the dog once a year, I had to go to the vet with him and we put the dog down. And that was an emotional So the emotional part of it six years old, dog years that that strikes, That strikes how old are you, Steve Home. I don't like that one. It is sad. Yeah, so I was crying for that dog. Even so, the emotional loss for that dog tears rolling down your cheek. My vet tech she's seen me in there a few times. And when I went in there and I was saying goodbye to her, they were they were just rolling down my face and she looked and she'd never seen me crying before bringing dogs in dead or alive. Ruth answered this as though around he's not in the room. Was the good bird dog? Um? It didn't get enough formal training early on but she was she had a will of unbelievable, but she was not a real graceful hunter. Yeah. So it's like a smart kid that never got to go to school. Yeah, alright, so okay, so they're six year old dog. I'm just trying to to that's the emotional part the what was you rather qu the financial part of it? Yeah, because these are high test dogs. Yeah. And nowadays, when when you go to feasant Fest and walk the floor, which you haven't today, when you when you're down there, you're gonna see a bunch of dog breeds there. Now, I would venture to say they're all within a few hundred dollars of what my dogs cost nowadays. But thing was ten years ago my dogs cost twice as much as them. So it's definitely because of rarity. The rarity because there's not many just like a rare coin. You know, you can't get much for nickel when they made fifty million nickels in your coin collection. But now there people are. The dogs have come up to a different price level. So it's just dogs in general, dogs and dogs in general. Janni, did you look into that long hair? I told you that German long hair. I went I looked into it. We went and looked at you looked at Yeah. Yeah, bird dogs in general are more expensive now like than ever before and way beyond like rates of inflation. Yes, what do you attribute that to? Uh, most people's emotions and what they want. Just like we're able to buy bigger houses than we used to be able to, were able to buy more truck with a longer payment. I think we just McMansion is kind of mentality. There's some exposure, better exposure nowadays though, Right, we didn't know anything about hunting dogs when we were hunting back in Illinois. And you're right, and people put way more weight on health testing, so people are investing more into their breeding stock than they used to. So like so the ceiling, the ceiling has gone up, but you can still go out and get all kinds of free dogs at the pound. Right. Yeah. In fact, I'm going to interview a guy who only hunts with dogs. He rescues from a pound, bird dogs, beagles to that word drives me crazy. I don't when you were a kid, you went down and to the pound and got a dog. Now you go down to the pound and rescue was like like she was in the middle of the lake and you had to give him a life preserved like its mouth. I don't know why. It's like such an old man. You think there's certain words that come out and be an old many. Yeah, well okay, like used to go over to your body's house. Now you have a play date. It's like, I don't used to be there, Like, oh, you know, you know that Stevie got a newer Bobby got a new dog. Where are you get it here? I don't even went down to the pound and got a dog. It's like, oh, I rescued this dog. It's like that you come in and they got a pistol of the dog's head. Throw yourself in front of it. Now, right now, you're taking a dog or not. The trap door is released and the news comes tight. Now, rescue would be a bunch of dogs that we're gonna be put down and you break in the night before. I'd be like that, don't joke. I rescued the dog. He was right outside the gas chamber. We're backing up to gurneys out there the crematorium fired up. What sant is? I just used that word rescue and I never used to use that word rescue. Because it's just like I used play date. Now I just gave in, and now I'm like, oh, so you know Rosemary is having to played it. Yeah, alright. So anyways, the ceiling, like like the limit that people are comfortable paying for a dog you have seen go up during your time as a dog, to even to even a breed that maybe have uh, let's say a particular breed that I judge. I see a lot of German short hairs. You could find one in almost every town in the United States over x amount of population. Breeder, even those dogs that you can find without traveling to Europe or all the way across the country, those dogs, those people have raised the bar and they're breeding, their health testing their selection of who they're gonna breed, and they're like, my dogs are worth that too. And once you can't find a five short are you're gonna pay fifteen dar for a short hair. So that's what a run of the middle decent, pedigreed short hair goes, I would say a good one. So you started the years ago we've talked about before, you started to traffic in uh battalion Broccos, Brocco Italianos, and uh, you breed them. Yeah, and the bitch we'll put off up to usually tend to twelve puppies. That was getting at. Yeah, and then you sell these puppies and you usually sell them before they're born. Is that not true? But for pre sold like people pay a deposits them, well, yeah, they had to pay a deposit or I keep an email from them, or but they're almost always sold before the time they're ten weeks. I'm certain it was not Hayward Banks who song Dead Puppies Go Much fun. I got it for you right here. I didn't get too deep into it. There's looks like there's two. There's like a band called Dr Demento that's saying it. But then also ogden Edzel. Yeah, I don't know what those guys a good song. Um, So people write in and say I want one, but you never know how many you're gonna have anyways, right, So that's why you can't close the deal. Yeah, you can't. You just gotta wait. And how many, uh in a dog and a dog that you've owned, how many puppies have you been able to sell off a single dog? Ah? Probably I'm gonna if I'd be accurate, I'm gonna say thirty eight or forty female, So one female can kick out fifty thousand dollars worth of puppies. Yes, yes, I'm just getting to the monetary back right, right right, And actually a little more than that, because if you take the number forty forty puppies thanks to two thousand, that's eighty thousand, so they're more valuable. I mean you can get too because of those. The fella could get two thousand dollars for a brock Italian. Hey, sorry, so we don't have to deal with a correction later. The band name, I left it open enough, but there's no room for connections. Man name is ogden Edzel though friends are it was a part of the band. Dr Demento is a show that was played on often. There's also Keith Johnson and Bill Carey were in the band. You're welcome. Um, yeah it goes dead. Puppies are much fun. Um and that's true. Your kids are gonna send it, so okay, So that's the monetary because it was like, so now I'll tell the story what happened. Well, I just want to establish the emotional and financial right, and it was you cannot help but think that like, oh my God, I would have bread that dog two more times. And if anybody's you'll hear breeders say this, and they can all send me the hate meal. You shouldn't be breeding for money, like you shouldn't be you shouldn't be breeding to lose money, you know what I mean? You know, why would you set yourself up unless you're like, as it called pro bonal lawyer. I'm not a pro bonal breeder. And the dog like, it's not that the dogs particularly that that it's not a like a foregone conclusion that that type of dog is any better at honing than any other type of There's like there's certain amount of aesthetics and it's it's a look and it's a demeanor that they happen to have. But I could find you that demeanor in almost every other breed. Just have to find the right So you kind of fall in love with sort of like just like the groove of the dog, Yeah, exactly, it's not use that term, no, the general prove of the dog, the general vibe of the how it kind of just relates to people and from the couch to the field, right, it's a tie it um. And so you fell in love with this kind of dog, right, And I've lost a lot of dogs over the years, you know, and back when I was in my thirties and forties, I don't know. I don't remember really crying over it. You know. It's as I got older and to become a father and it's gonna be a grandfather. I'm turning into a big blubbering baby when it comes to yeah, becoming tuned. I don't on Facebook when they die or anything. That's my you know a lot of people do that. No, never, because you mean you don't want to like solicit, want to solicit people find out lady, Yeah, I don't. I don't. But anyway, talking about what happened to the dogs, so I went down who was Oscar and Katie and tell what their background was. Oscar was a two year old male who one was just starting to get his wings in the field as far as being a good or a dog. And he had also his confirmation, his build, his his whole body was like, let's say, like a bodybuilding like if you had a bodybuilding contest. A confirmation contest is a bodybuilding contest for dogs. The judge walks up and says, nice muscles, nice back legs, nice straight, he's not bow legged like me. You know the dog gates across the so like a pug isn't gonna do well on this against other pugs, not against so he had on top of in his case being a male, he had a monetary value down to future of people would want to breed to him because you don't want to lose the breeding body type. He had a classic if he's gonna throw a dog that looks like a broco Tex exactly. Yeah. Question, so is his value similar to that of the of the female because of his No, because I probably could never get forty breedings out of him. Why not? I mean, because you don't want togistically logistically and you don't want in a small breed. You don't want the sire to be the same in fifteen different states, because now you're losing out on breeding ability. Then you're breathing, you're breeding daughters to fathers and so so can I ask you one other thing? So is that then why you were saying? I mean, if I did the math, they're having eight to ten, So you're really only breeding that female four time, four times, three, three or four times. But she's living to be fourteen or so. You stop out of sympathy to the dog. You stop out of like mostly by the time they're eight. Most people will never breed a dog because it's too hard on It's too hard just like a woman. Do you know you're gonna get higher instance of down syndrome and a mother over forty than you will a woman in her twenties. Same thing with puppies. Already's last letter, we thought we were gonna lose three and we had to do a cesarean. She couldn't deliver the last dog. She was seven and a half when she had a letter. Uh do they do AI on dogs or do you ship the dog? Sure? Oh yeah, yeah, this one, this one might take a minute. First time a lady wanted to breed to another dog I had, which was Oscar's relations client. A lady in California saw my dog, saw pictures of it, and then looked at the because I gotta breed to your dog. I want your dog's lines and my females loins and that's how. And she goes, have you ever been to a reproduction clinic? I'm like no, And so she's googling all this. I'm at Working Virginia in the valley, and she writes me back. She goes, there's a clinic two hours away from you. Blah blah blah. That's okay. I need you to be there Tuesday for a collection. Because she's monitoring the progester owns uh numbers on her female, so she knows that first overnight frozen or chilled seamen has got to leave on Tuesday. So and the female is gonna be righte it, She'll be right it, She'll be right for so many days. And we'll have to do this a couple of times, so you cover a span anyway. So I have never Doug, you might be able to speak to this. I didn't know how they collect those strange a little ai okay. I did not know how they extract the semen out of an animal. I've never seen it done, never asked your picture. Will needle a needle or some kind of a catheter, like you know, running up the sheath, and why not have a little fun. So so and you know me, I'm not short on flirtation or anything else, right, and I'm not a quiet guy. I walk in with my dog, she says, follow me, this very tall, good looking brunette. Um that with a Russian accent, which I happened to really love a Russian accent. She says, come, fits me, come fit me. You know you I handed the dog. She said, no, no, you come with that. Better with you with Yeah, that's the best I can do for female. Maybe if he said Soviet block and more he loves a little more wiggle, he was like like Colonel Click, like wernerd Kempler and Hogan's hero German. Yeah, well Eastern block, you know, so those areas got wrapped up in World War two. Somehow smart kid who didn't get to go to school or or acting school. So she comes and comes and come, come, come, come, and and honest to god, she was on a scale of ten. She was an easy eight, beautiful woman about forty years old, and she has me. She goes, you hold the dog's color. So I'm standing to the side of the dog, and she calls for the vet tech to come in with if this happened to be a Golden Retriever that was in heat, so they backed the Golden Retriever in tail, you know, butt two nose, And of course the male is like whoa you know, he starts sniffing, his tail, starts wagging, and he starts getting a little excited, which all male dogs will do. And and she proceeds to straddle over my dog and she's stroking his back. God, that's a good boy. That's a good boy. He actually proceeds to give him a reach around under under his groin. And for the life of me, I didn't really believe what she was doing. She was getting him, exciting him. And then she reaches over for this baggy, this long triangular bag about eighteen inches long, and she puts that in her other hand. And now she's doing she's she's milking the dog and she's silk. But her talking, she was, dad's a good book. Oh yeah, good boy, I'm tracking. I am standing. You found this, you found this to be No, I love you found me slightly erotic. No, it was only when she introduced herself did I get a little like, oh, he's cute. Okay, alright, So you walk in and initially I think I'm going a hand a dog, and then she's like, I'm you know, I'm a married man. But I can acknowledge that the beautiful woman, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you smart, beautiful woman the rest of it's just I'm aware of this, and you're saying that that didn't that that those feelings didn't escalate with the milking. No, no, they didn't escalated it for you. They killed it. Because I'm glad to hear this. I could not, you know, I've always gone getting look scited doing telling. Ruf made me tell the story last night again in the hotel room. Stay on that at all? Right before you went to bar, did you say any thing like, um, wow, how you know? How do you feel about that process? Tongue tied totally a camera on you during the I was like, I mean I wanted to be like the smart Alec like a comedian and go like next, you know, but that's called her, that's called sex. But I mean I couldn't even think of the funny things I wanted to think about it. I was totally embarrassed. It would be like it'd be like walking in on um Sue given the kids a sex talk when they were going I'd be like, this isn't comfortable. I was totally uncomfortable your own watching your dog. So that was your answer to Ai. Yes, I'm familiar with Ahi and Doug. Do you do that to a cow, not you personally, But the AI part hasn't happened yet, the AI part just folks, this is the collection process. Yeah, they didn't mail it off. And then she takes a turkey baster. It was a contrast several ways. Yeah, and you're putting the dog and breathe the dog. I'm surprised that it has to be so fresh, because with cattle, you know, frozen seemed a free seamen. You can use a bullet's been dead for years. Well, we do, I've I've actually I had him collected, dropped him off at a collection because he was such a good dog, good example of the breed in up in Cincinnati or uh Columbus. Uh. He's still frozen in some straws to this day. But I didn't have a hurry. She's in a hurry because she's right. And with dogs, see because I don't, because it's we're looking for multiple puppies. What do you get two calves or one? Only? Usually one? Sometimes too so with dogs, the more counts per million of live protozola, spermazoid or whatever the word is, So you want it frozen will work and you'll usually get a smaller litter. Typically it's not a rule, but typically, and so fresh yeah, fresh chilled is the next best into homemade homemade, yeah homegrown. M did how much did you get for that when you did that? Standard? Is the price of a puppy at that point? And and then the dog starts like and going to the vet too, literally you bring him into it. Just check us out about check this out about Ranny's dogs their day. I called Ronnie on the phone. We're talking on the phone, and the dogs are going ape ship his dogs barking and squealing. His dogs have figured out that when he's on the phone, like, he'll be on the phone and they'll make noise and he'll be like and let him all out because they're making noise. Now when he gets on the phone, they just make noise. They just because I know that he'll brew him out for making noise when he's on the phone. But I could be on my computer forever, listen to YouTube whatever. They don't say nothing. They lay there a minute. I'm on that phone, like I got a biscuit or a bone, or I get to go out. I'm I'm interested about the Golden Retriever and the collection. Uh, facility. Well, no, because obviously they must. They just have a rotating stock of females that yes, they are a good vet clinic that is specialized in um artificial AI or even people actually bring their two dogs to a vet to let them do it because they're afraid of the process. But they they are UM. But so those clinics are so big that there's almost always a dog coming in for a progester own test. And on one, on one occasion, I had cotton balls at a place they did not have a bitch in heat. They call her teaser bitch. There was no teaser bitch. So they had cotton balls that they continually dab on the females, uh back end, and then they keep them in a jar. Oh and it's like us do is bit still? Like? Is bitch still widely acceptable in the dog world? Like if I were to walk up to which I did yesterday, I would said, that's a nice looking bitch. And you definitely use the word bitch. Yeah, you don't say dog, you say bitch. Or let's look anyone, I don't know anybody would skip on saying. Imagine that there was the sire sire you can call them the boy, the guy. Imagine there was a nun, a nun dog breeder. Oh none, like a like a none dog breeder. Would she say, my bitch, I'm gonna did you go to any Catholic school? I got an aunt. It's a Catholic done dog breeder. Do you think she would have said, do you think she has time for a call? Do you have an aunt who's a nun? Yeah, a couple of uncles that were priests. Would she use bitch or a synonym? Synonym? So it's not totally so anyways, I want I won't go back to the to the backup plan. When you don't have a dog in heat. With those cotton balls, there might be whole opportunity for a line of Brittany magazines or something for Yeah, I was gonna point that out because guys, I've talked to you. Yeah, guys, I've talked to you. Who have to go in and do Guys I talked to you have to go in and do a sample. They're not bringing in a labador, No they're not. But then you know they're go into a room with magazines. Then you gotta Then you come out and you're like out back out in the clinic, and I had a number of friends say, it's just always so awkward because like everyone that works there, because you've been like in there thumbing through some magazine. It's like, yeah, it's like yeah, come and be like I got what you need right here. But I had to do that after getting a vast act of me. I had to bring in a number of samples. Believe, you go back home, then you came. Yeah, you come back in. When you come back in, you can sort of have the aura about you as though you had assistance with this collector. No one knows how you worked it up, right, so you can kind of like maintain like some self composure and be like, oh yeah, buddy, but don't you worry about how I worked up teem. I got to digress to back to duck because I want to know how they do I wonder how they do it with a bull. We never had bulls that we collected from when we had dairy cattle. We had a whole stein bull for a while, and then he just did it on his own right, and his being deadly a big thing. Right There's I've only been to facility once and that was when I was in high school. And which is the wrong place to take a bunch of high school boys. But uh so they actually had steers that they did the same thing with that they were rubbing. Yeah, they're in heat rubbing what well, they were rubbing estrogen or from a cow that's in heat on because I turned around to arouse him and and then there you said, steer, you no, the steer. They don't use a cow, So they rubbed the stuff on the back of a steer. Come on, that's what they do to that poor thing. Well, and it's don't want to cow maybe because then they don't have to have cows around, And so they want to take a steer and rub the smell of a ripe cow. And then it's a collection thing like that, except they're smelling be like, man, I'm seeing one thing and smelling another. Yeah, because remember the story we heard when we were in Wyomen trapping beavers. How that dude how the neighborhood lost a bunch of steers because they had like it was like an overdose or too much of that implant drug that they had given it in a bunch of those steers were getting like way too much testosterone and for the steers that were getting that first. The steers that weren't as like getting the testosterone. The stosterone jacked up ones were chasing all the other ones around and basically killing killing them, riding them so much that they were killing these steers that hadn't gotten in the equal amount of drugs. Wrestlers like just dry humping them to Yeah, like wrestlers, dude, that's yeah. I got some friends of the wrestlers, and man, they still like to wrestle. Yeah, wrestlers like to wrestle. So i didn't wrestle in high school. I'm ready to move on to something else. I wish we had more time to talk about throwing one thing real quick, and you, Ronnie, don't even don't even discuss it. I'm gonna tell us a thing about to date. This will help date Ronnie. When Ronny was a kid, I know where he was a kid. In Chicago public schools. When you took swim class, all the boys would have to stripped out and swim naked at school. That's true. Okay, So he never told you. The coach also did, right, Okay, so we thought that was odd um Oscar and Kate Oscar and Oscar is an up and coming stud and a one time bread female had literally eight pups, so she had a good sized litter. The two dogs whose future is ahead of them, future is ahead of them, financial future, emotional future, everything. Yeahney's look everything's looking at like when there you are you're driving to It was in Indiana in the state park. The state park was not open per se for vehicle traffic, but this particularly well, there was no guard. You didn't in the state park passed to get into. It was off season, was off season. But this part of the state for some reason has an old hotel on the property and they use it like a B and B so, and it happens to be in a state park. But it's not all set up for summer activities. It's set up year round for staying there. You know, people can walk the trails. So there's really nobody there basically, and it's gated or not gated, just a front stone gate. It's not gated anyway. I get there, I check in the motel. There's no dogs allowed. A room. Oh, you're actually staying in the stay in there Indiana, Indiana, And so I get traveling, I'm gonna be working, I'm gonna be working with dogs and doing some interviews. Uh, five miles away the next two days at a training clinic, and so there's nothing out in these woods. I check in the room. I already know that dogs aren't allowed in. And my dogs you know the box they traveling big three dogs, three door box. Uh, I asked, I said, where's the best spot for me to let my dogs air out? Feed him and air out? Air out is their term for make you know, no ship, take the crap. We just made a symbol that I it's from the Goldbergs. She goes, did you make this morning? She has two kids, like mom. So if you're using two fingers, so Rannie's making a cap Rani's making a cup with one hand and taking two fingers and moving them in and out of the cup, which I interpreted to what we were talking about a minute ago. If you're saying, if it's two fingers, it becomes it was. It was a way for like a mom to not ask you in public, if do you have to go to bathroom? Did you make? I would rather my mom, let's leave the gold would rather than someone going like that. Little boy's mom keeps making the universal the universally accepted symbol for for something else. So and she said, yeah, I would just take the trail right around the back of the building, go down to the reservoir and let the dogs do whatever they do. So I get there, a friend of mine joins me without dogs. I've got four dogs and just running them around and well, first to feed him and so my older dog, he rides Shotgun in the back seat. The other dogs each got their own compartment. Okay, back, I say, missed something. You're traveling with four or two? Four dogs? I got four dogs with you own? Did I own? Okay? Because I want to keep in this story, there's a part of still in understands. I want to know how the four dogs had very different outcomes. Yeah, so they're all together. It was really easy to explain in hindsight. Um, so they all feed and they feed in their boxes or you know, so they don't fight over food. Make sure they got a bull of dog food in their in their bounder box, and you make sure they finish eating put food away. My youngest dog, did I still have Miller? He is named after the beer. Yeah, OK, yeah, I didn't. I actually got the dog back from a lady who named it after the beer because she knew I drank Miller light. But um, so I got this dog. He is at the point where he doesn't know his name, like to call him off of something or if he starts running, he would literally ignore me. His obedience training wasn't there, and that no too young, and he wasn't worked with when this person had the dog, and that was one of the reasons he was going as an example dog. About training a dog with that age with almost no obedience, you know, just a little crazy dog. You were bringing him to show him as a bad example of a dog exactly exactly. We do that and dog things. You want to show the good performance, You want to show the bad and the things in between, and then people can relate to it like, yeah, my dog, my dog will stay that long. Yeah that's great, the world's greatest dog. Learn nothing. So then I had my senior dog, Bravo, who knows all of his commands. So every time he was out, I just let him outside the truck and I said, provoms, come back. Miller wanted to run with the other two dogs to three year olds, but I didn't want him to, so I kept him on a thirty foot check cord wrapped around my waist. You could run around, I could drink a beer, and I'm talking with my buddy Gary. We're having a good time. Four dogs on one super obedient and two are up and commerce who take off And I can see him the entire time, like they run down to the reservoir, that run deck up a hill. They're not out chasing deer or anything. There within a hundred yards of me at all times. I could because I can see them. There's no leaves on the trees. The topography was such that I'm looking down at the reservoir. There was an old abandoned camp building there that they used for storage. To my knowledge, the doors were all locked and everything and so, and I did see the dogs go down to reservoir and get a drink. They came back wet, so I knew that's what they did. Um, so fast forward, get the dogs back. You give them each water again to help the write digest their food their meal overnight, and you put them in their boxes. And so that was about nine ten o'clock at night. Nine thirty at night, I closed the tailgate, went to the parking area, sat and talked with Gary for a little bit. You could hear the dogs rustling around in your boxes. Um, so everything seemed normal, like every time I've ever had the dogs out. And it's six or five thirty in the morning. We got up, I went to go air the dogs out, and I opened the tailgate and I can hear Miller on the right scratching to get out. So you're immediately you've and you never go to your box like, oh boy, I hope it's you know, it's if you no more you walk in this room and don't expect to see one good bed and towels. You know, it's that same assumption. So he's scratching to get out because he's that little crazy guy that doesn't have any obedience. The other ones have been in boxes so long, they just wait, they don't scratch at the door. They're going to get out at the same time. And I opened the middle door and I see Katie her head pressed up against the wall, and immediately know she's dead. I mean, there's just I mean, you could just say her I was half open, you know, or you know you well, you know, like even when an animal dies, it never looks like it does when it's betted. When it's this kind of smashed it. And I was like, I was like, oh my god. And I touched her and she was already like rock hard with rigging mortis, and I'm like, oh sh and I can hear him scratching. I opened the other door and there's Oscar, same way. He's just curled up, just dead. And I reached in and and I mean, Rigor. I don't know how long you guys talked about that. How long does Rigor take a couple of hours through two or three hours to get really up, to set up really hard. So when I told my vet all this, she said that they probably died somewhere around one or two in the morning. They would not be that Rigor Morris would not be so hard that I could not bend their legs back out too. It would have been a feudal attempt to see what happened to him. But they were that stiff, you know. So then the whole thing went to where I had to bring him. I actually put bags of ice on one of them in case it got warm on the way home. And I was told to do that just because you know things, you know, like in the animal they get hot from dying. And you want to keep them, you want to keep you initially getting are you initially like emotional? Or they kind of shot it at me an hour to even close the tailgate. Me and Gary sit there and cried and kept saying, w TF, WTF, WTF, thinking someone killed them, Thinking someone pop something into each one of their holes. You know, they could have reached in and going through the sliding window just and then I kept thinking they suffocated. They suffer, kid, they can't suffocate. They sleep in these things all the time. I can't suffocate it. They're like they're full of holes and right exactly, but my brains as they suffocated. Yeah, they're two sliding windows happened to be closed and Miller's was slit open. So then I'm like they suffocated. They anyway, so call me that they did a autopsy on one of them. There's no point to do both. They obviously got into something. And um and I gave you that text earlier. It's they found three chemical compounds that ex that suggest exposure to alcohol. Whatever that alcohol would be wasn't Miller Lite. I know that for a fact, because they drink that. You know, when I drop a candy, I'll lick it all up. It was not anti freeze, because it takes days for a dog to die from anti freeze. They don't die like that. So it was something that got to their liver and they bled out internally. And it's never been determined what that substance was. I don't know if it's something that's naturally occurring, fermented, somebody left out a pail of something they cleaned from a campground. Just I'll never know. And don't you look around. No. I wish I would have, because the whole thing was like I had to get to this clinic, tell them what happened, tell him goodbye. I gotta get back to Michigan. And I was so like out of in shock. I just never could. The ground has been baiting for rodents. The state called me several times, the state biologist, state veterinarian, Michigan state veterinarians talked to them. I asked that there's a there's a product people used for killing raccoons and possums that would kill a dog that fast. Very few, but those things are always almost identifiable in their stomach contents. So yeah, we won't know, but word to everybody, you never know don't let your kids play and junk card. But you don't you don't feel that, like based on what you've seen dogs do, you don't feel that they would drink um bourbon? No? No, I've seen dogs around people drinking brown water. Never seen a dog lap it up. Although I have had friends say, oh yeah, my dog will lick my my glass of bourbon with you know, but not cue over dead from it. No, no, no, you you I would. You'd have to drink a lot, I would think. And the vet or the lab interpreted for you that this is an alcohol, And when you look it up, it's just everywhere it's like kind of alcoholics found and everything. Those three things that were identified in the liver biopsy or whatever it was. Uh, all it says is suggests exposure to alcohol. You know, there's isopropyl alcohol is Jack Daniels. There's and freeze in anything that doesn't freeze an alcohol, So couldn't have been an old can of windshield wiper fluid split out? True that anything that doesn't freeze in alcohol. Okay, that's not accurate. Is it in alcohol freezes? It's some temperature. Yeah. Also there we used to have Boone's firm. We take boone farm ice fishing, and the boons would freeze except the syrup and rise up to the top. The booze and the sugar would rise the top, and then you could have like a like a slushy ice fish. And so yeah, that's the that's that's how what happened. You never went back to go look around. No, no, it's it was a six hour drive, and it was like, I'm not going to change the outcome of the day, and You're not gonna run your dogs there again. I'm not gonna run my dogs there again. And if you know, in the conspiracy world, if the state was using some bait to take care of mice and squirrels, and I don't think they were gonna leave it lay around because they already knew what happened, that's a conspiracy part of me. You know, I don't take my walk round would have produced anything. On the other hand, it could have produced an old cook pot that had eggcorns fermenting in it. I don't you know, I don't know. Fruit yeah, turned into fruit apples, bushel apples in a steel bucket. Who knows. It could have been something like that. But there wasn't anything like and this is a common uh. They said it was common in a whole bunch of different things, but not in particular in some kind of bait or it was anything identifiable on the market. The interesting part is that the two dogs that stayed close lived and the two dogs that ran around kind of creepy almost a little bit makes you want to makes you want to just well, I think that's why. You know. It's like Houndsman, they're kind of used to losing their dogs. It's like that's you. You buy into that, but your bird hunter and your pet owner you don't buy into that. You barely buy into the fact that you're gonna outlive your dog. People can't even handle that. Houndsman is like they might they might cry when the dog dies, but they go into it, I mean losing them to bears and pigs and lions cliffs. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's that's what happened. That's all we know on that. And do you ensure your dogs? No? I never have. I'm sure that's something that's available, probably could. So how much of a setback was it, how much like like as a breeder, how much of a setback was it. Well, I need like hunting wise and breeding wise, honey wise, I I'd be a little low on dog power and breeding wise. I had another female that was a year old last year, so she could have been the next one. Um and she just died of kidney failure right before Christmas, so a year and five months old or something like that. Ten what ten sen dog years? Ten years old? Old? True tragedy. So yeah, so I'm set way back. I won't have a although I did drive all the way to way across Georgia to pick up a puppy that was seven months old, so you actually now have to go buy dogs. You can't make them out of boys, and already is too old to breed. She'd still be willing. But I would like dancing Duke Kennels is like out of business. It's it's it's just dancing dude, man. No ship. Yeah, I mean I've kind of like known this, but I like to the whole thing. Yeah, we don't. We don't get time to but ron when we're on hunting. Those dogs are hundreds of yards away from us at times, right, yeah, whatever, that that's the one thing I would love to know what that dog got into I would love to be able to write something up and let the rest of the world know, like, boy, don't think you're safe even with this. Yeah, but what is the Like it's one of those things and you're the last guy in the world to um submit to like irrational paranoria, right, parent, Yeah, um, because what's the there's no lesson. Don't let your dogs run around yards away from you. It's just like I asked Johnny last night about you guys in bears right, that would be like you guys never going into the woods again. So there's a lesson learned. But what's the lesson? You know, it's only a lesson on that property. It's not I'm gonna let my dogs go hunt and were But when we're coming to when we're corner hopping, you know you got you got. You have a farmer that will have a rock pile on his corner because he's getting everything out of his field old tractor and you know who knows what You start coming across corner up and can get your troumple out. Have you have you lost the dog your rattlesnake yet? No? In fact, I don't know anybody has. But I know I've heard of people who have. Yeah, I guess it's got to hit him in the hit all the time. I guess he's got to hit him in the throw in her mouth. I don't think it in a sebaceous tissue or something. I don't think it does much to him. A porcupine attack. One time, when one around these dogs, the dog attacked the porcupine. Yeah, man, it was gnarly. Yeah, you put that picture in your book. It was amazing that dog had porcupine quills from its nostrils to its testicles. Yeah, he just full full, continue to hunt. Well, you know what, we'll put these pictures. We'll put the pictures of your dog up on the show, the porcupine on the show, Zeno Zeno, and hoping Zino Zino got the brunt of it. I don't know if I mentioned this before, I think I have. But we were out hunting one time and Pooter, I think it was I came here. It was me or Poot, but one of us filled a dough tag and the deer had obviously run into had run over a porcupine. Really well, that's the one way I can explain it, because their whole underside was full of quills. Wow. So in my mind, she's hauling asked through the woods trip and there's a porcupine. He's like puts his tail up, right, I mean yeah, I mean how else would you can like fight it? Not? Just wasn't like attacking so man her it was so infected. Just it was just full of infections and post and stuff up and down her belly. We're hunting sheep one time, hunting doll sheep, my brother's old girlfriend. And it was like I was kind of I think he was walking point and she was right behind him or however, I can't remember how we were configured going up through these alders. And all of a sudden she comes rolling down the hills screaming bloody murder. And she had walked under a porcupine and he had smacked her right where her shoulder met her neck. Yeah, put maybe thirteen I think it was thirteen quills or something, right where her shoulder met her neck. You know when you said it, when you said attack, I didn't. But you're right. They will use their tail in defense. I forgot about what they don't do, which cartoons will lead you to believe, is that they can launch quills like an English army of arrows. Yeah, but it's like it's smart, that kind of myth. It's like, I guess, with kids and stuff, it's smart to allow them to believe that that's true. Not a bad thing, because all stoves are hot. Yeah, but I don't think that most people are never corrected about the porcupine. I would tell them when they were twelve or so, I would say, you know, to be honest with you, I think, can't shoot it. It's a rite of it's a rite of passage. You gotta set them down, say ay, just so you know, you know, and that porcupine does not launch quills. This means number two. This means number two. This means and porcupines cannot shoot quills. Man, where do we go from there? The pressing story, screwing the saga of Oscar. We're still waiting to still hoping to find out, but obviously we won't. Maybe somebody else will hear this, And I'm surprised you're not more obsessed with like learning the truth. I don't know what else I can do, you know. I mean, I think the tissue samples are probably destroyed. I don't think they save him you know, I mean forensically, maybe some Einstein guy, maybe one of your listeners. Here's the thing. On the show notes, any idea, we will put the yeah, because we you know, we actually just got a really mean letter from a vet. Who Um, he's real mad. He feels like um and then dark, Uh, he's really I think that a lot of people were like, he's he works in the egg industry, and he was real pissed about some stuff Rogan was saying about big egg. I don't have a problem big egg, nor ever said I had a problem big egg whatsoever. Um, But he feels that guys that like to hunt are somehow down on big egg. Like it's a like a big egg guy apparently gets mad if people start extolling the virtues of other types of meat. So he was mad about that. But that guy, he's a vet. So what you could do is on the show notes, will put up a picture of your dog with its mouthful of quills. We'll put up a picture of these dogs when they're happy in in the old days. We'll put a picture of cute uh broco Italiano puppies, and then we'll put up the toxicology report. There you go, and we will allow people to interpret the results what I'm getting at. It might come up. We might not get any event, but they have a very similar thing could have happened to Joe blow and in Colorado, and they might have got to the bottom of it, and that all might make more sense. See the other thing I forgot to say. The one thing that will kill a dog like that is called blue algae, and that occurs a lot. You know what, that'll kill elk too. It'll so uh if a dog drinks you literally, if he drinks enough and gets the blue algae, you don't have enough time to even get him to the vet. He's dead. Yeah, Like when it when it wipes out herds, the animals, they'll all be laying around the water hole. Yeah, they're not even just make that right, But that wouldn't come up as alcohol poisoning exactly exactly. But the mystery thickens. You have cowses die for no reason, Doug, uh boy, it's been along I mean, why did that cow die? You know a better questions like we found uh, you know, we found a cow dead in the pasture one time, and you never like look into It's not worth the money to look into it. Yeah, I mean you haven't and I haven't had one die for you know, usually if they're looking bad, you get rid of them. I mean, you know, so it's not I mean you check them out and then decide, you know what, what what you're gonna do with you? Do you have a cry when they die? I'm pretty kind of my animals. You know, you cry when they die because because you don't cry when you're sending them off to slaughter. No, but I'm no, I don't cry when they die. But when I'm putting the animal on the I mean, it's it's something that happens as you get older. I guess I put even steers and I'm butchering on the Reaganesque tendency to crying. Well, no, I'm not crying, but I'm I'm I have a different attitude about it. I put him on the trap. Some empathy, empathy, and I know what I'm you know, I know what I'm doing, what's happening there. I mean, it doesn't mean I don't like, do you know you're on the doorstep of death yourself? But you don't come in the house. Dog, You don't even think about that. I honestly don't know what you got. You guys a have like a weird conversation. I don't understand what you're saying right now, like, oh, you know, and then like you know what, well, I asked you flat out a question. No, I don't try when the cattle die? Do you cry when you send him off to slaughter? I don't cry when I send him off to slaughter. But I am I have a different feeling about it than I did when I was younger. Okay, please, if you don't mind, explain what that feeling is. And what I was referring to was when Ron was saying that earlier, when he was in his twenties and thirties, he didn't have the same emotions about the dogs. And of course you get more attached to a dog than you do a cow or a steer or whatever. But I spent a lot of time with him, and it's part of why my animals are so calm and everything. And and I mean, I put them on the trailer and I thank them, I know where they're going, and I'm like, you know, it's just you know, it's a somber thing for me. It's part of one I want him just to be cool and you know, say hey, thanks, looking forward to that steak. It's like, hey, thanks, you got well yeah, I mean so so so I'm not talking about that. Okay, no, no, I'm fine. I like the thing about it is you're saying that you have felt that you had that you were either you used to be more callous or you're just more sort of emotional, emotionally aware of the cycles of life and death. Now, yes, because I'm nearer to death myself, as you said that. That's why, that's why, That's where I'm going with this, is you feel it's that you feel that you're like, you know, you recently lost your father. I think that, um, one of the things that I've thought about and recently had a birthday. I recently had a birthday and you know, fifty nine years old, and you know, you have a lot more. Yeah, well I have a lot more. When I say, boy, thirty years ago when I was you know, twenty nine, well thirty years from now, you know, yeah, have eighty nine. Well, then I think about my mom and she's still you know, cruising along, but she cried when the Coles ago. My mom has no regard for cattle whatsoever. So we'll get worse, apparently, but she doesn't. She's not involved with the farm. The farm is not her. You think you'll get to a point where you can't send cattle off to slaughter? Is it that fast? It's just a really gradual thing that's happening to you. I can't imagine a time when cattle still wouldn't just be cattle to me. I mean that doesn't mean you treat them badly or anything like that. I mean, it's just a it's a process, you know, it's would you send puppies off to slaughter? Yeah? My father, my father tells a story that he like in the old days, he would no joke, he would be sent out to get rid of litters of kittens done that. Yeah, he did not like it. We use made to do it. We picked up a kitten, my wife and daughter and I would picked up a kitten from another farm, and we have a guy said, oh, hey, come by and get a kitten. And I'm like, oh man, because we had there was a cat at the farm that needed another that needed a you know something that my daughter and wife decided that that that the cat at the farm need you to play me. So when I say kitten, I don't mean a little fres I mean, you know, one that's a young cat. So we go up to this guy's place and and uh, I thought I'm just gonna be able to say no when I get there, but oh no, we're taking one of these cats with us, you know. So while we didn't bring anything along, uh to put it in that was sort of my you know, way out and John go the farmer, says, well, I got a gunny sack, so he grabs the cat. I grabbed the gunny sack. He drops the cat in. I closed the top of it, and that cat came up and we named the cat Biter later because it came up and bit me, bit me through the bag and held on. I had blood running down my arm, and I can only think that it would figure the next thing coming in there was a rock and it was gonna get It's like cats. That cat ended up being one of the coolest cats ever though, And I'm not a cat guy at all. I grew up around uh in dairy you know, dairy production areas, and the dairy farmers would like to have cats because they would need to control mice and rats, so they wanted cats, but then they're always into sort of delicate balance where you needed like enough cats, but then you get too many cats they would get I think that they don't know what the term they would use. The farmers would use as feline distemper and that would like sleep through the cat population and wipe them all out. So the farmers are often in a situation of trying to cool. They would have cats and they're not spaying and neutering these things, and it would get out to what there's a whole bunch and they would want to coll the heard cool the population of cats, and would on occasion, um, have the Ranella boys come over just they would on occasion seek assistance, seek paid help in reducing the cats for fear of a cat of a disease outbreak. And it did an occur to him. I don't know why that uh to Spain Newter, but I think it's just enough stray cats running around, they just find their way. They find their way there. Farm cats. Yeah, I mean, it's it's just a it's it's it's a type of cat. I mean, actually the cats we have in the house is a farm cat. I think Mark Kennyon was saying, was he Mark Kenyon saying that all of a sudden he has he has thirteen cats sitting outside of his house. They just because he's had one or something. One showed up and the next thing, you know, that thing made love. Oh yeah, I don't know I did. No, he's just got cats everywhere, not not are there anything he did? So, Doug, you've just been saying, um, all right, well well Steve, what about what about Veal? With a Oh, I'm dead set against l We don't even have to have that conversation. You're against Veal. I am against Vial. I had we had a neighbor who raised Veal. I dealt with it. It's not a pretty sight. Yeah, and he got any concluding thoughts veal just concluding thoughts in general. And we might have to edit this out or maybe we'll keep it in. But did you read the email that came in about us being wrong about bow hunting? Yeah, but that guy's just overly sensitive. Yeah, a bow hunter being overly sensitive. I'm shocked, Like you didn't want to talk about it. It doesn't warrant. It's like I just think that like now we can talk about it. When we're done, we talk about just like I just don't get like, like we have a thousand bows, like we have thousands of bow hunters. That's an exaggeration. We have loads of bow hunters on the show. I've no stranger to bow hunt. You bow hunt. I don't get it. What's the what was the that it doesn't even matter? You don't talk about hunting enough. Well, he has a anecdote and anecdote laden rebuttal to the idea that there's a higher wound loss, that that there's higher wound loss with archery than firearms, backed up by the fact of three things that happened to me. Well, yeah, do you have any concluding thoughts, Johnny? No? Really? All right, you don't like veal. I'd love to talk about it more about just feel like I've done talking about livestock fair enough. I'm done talking about livestock too. Um. It's just nice to be here in South Dakota, that's it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, We've covered so many different things here that I I mean, there's tons of stuff I talk about, but this I feel bad. I only don't want to talk about it because I don't want to I don't feel like, because you know what, I just I don't feel like with all the just the recreational outrage that will generate of some guy raises Veal and his cows are the nicest cows in the world. So I have a concluding thought. Then, Okay, one of the things I actually thought about before I came I Ny, you know, should I be prepared to talk about anything? I said, if I've ever been prepared to talk to anything when I've been in one of your podcasts? But yeah, but it's like that, it's like that Picasso quote, Picasso Pablo the whole like sketches the thing out on a napkin, right, and it's worth all this money. And something says that I only took you five minutes. That took a lifetime, all right, So you're just prepared from lifetime years now. Uh. I'm it's nice to take a break from talking about c w D, which I've been doing a lot of. That's your concluding thought, That is my concluding thought. Like I've known Ronny since nineteen sixty four. I remember how old are you? Guys? That year I was four, he was maybe five or six. Naked in the pool. Uh, problem were, but not in high school. I've met you, know, I've known about you for years. I remember when he hired you, when when your dad promised him a couple of good work currently guaranteed my labors. But I've I've met a lot of people here at pheasant Fest. So if you line them up one through a hundred, this in this whole hunting and sportsman and and it's all around you know obviously Pheasants Fest this week number one, Quail and quail. If you're line up these people a hunter, people one and a hundred may not be attached, but there's a bridge from one to two all the way down where these people are all linked together. And it's you find you're finding that out. Yeah, it's spread so horizontal, it's crazy. It was very cool. Good. That's a deep plug for I don't have. I can't even get nothing like that. I would like to encourage all your listeners to never let their dogs get out of sight and to listen to my podcast called the Hunting Dog Podcast, which we started on the same day three years ago. Shameless shameless plug for available on any format where a fellow find formats they can find The meat Eater they can find the Hunting Dog podcast. You want to do a deep dive into hunting dogs. That goes beyond us losing a couple of right, goes into we've had We've had conservations on, We've had trainers on, We've had breeders on, We've had pheasants forever on, Rough Growl Society come on, Loggers, come on. So I try to cover a lot of topics, but just the same shameless plug with the center of the bulls I being bird dogs. Yes, always a connection to the person is gonna be a logger. He's got to have a bird dog. It's like, you know, we've got something to yak about. So I thank you for starting your podcast in Texas, and we thank Joe Rogan for starting you on your podcast in Texas because that's how you got started first ever episode and that Ransom Canyon, Texas. And that's as soon as I hum up the headphones, I said, I'm gonna do this about dogs wife for me, So thank you, Stephen Um. I don't have any concluding thoughts. I do feel real guilty about cutting you off about that veal, Doug. I don't know why you would feel guilty about it. Table that up. Thank you for listening,

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