00:00:00 Speaker 1: All right, everybody, this is the Meat Eater Podcast coming to recorded from the Yano Esticado or Staked Planes of Texas. We're in a canyon called Ransom Canyon, which is a sweet name, in a rental house that has a lot of personal flourishes of the owner around it. We're down here. I don't I'm not. We're gonna We're not gonna talk about why we're down here too much yet, because we're gonna talk about that at another point. Um has to do the big tall bird. It tastes real good. Um. Instead, we're talking about right now. It's something that that I've been troubled by and puzzled over and anguished over my entire life. And that is the purpose and functionality. And also some practical business happened to do with hunting dogs. And I've always maintained that dudes who hunt with dogs like dogs more than hunting. And I have a couple of dog a couple of dog experts sitting here today. And also, uh, you're honestly tell us your own a dog? Us? Nope. And also a man who has never even owned a dog, how have you never owned a dog? We had one growing up, so the family dogs. I didn't really I'm counting that. And then when I got married, I got a two for one package. But she was just like a house dog. She was a family dog. What's the mean to get two for one package? I got a dog with the marriage? Where is it? Dog? Now? She passed away from what old age? Alright? So ye, honest lie, he's actually had several dogs. Um, they're all dead now. And we're also joined right now by Ronnie Bam Um, who's the main dog guy that I know, Like, like, most of what I know about dogs, besides just dogs I've owned, has come from Ronnie and Ronnie Tell, I'm gonna have you talked about Ronnie like you Ronnie judges dogs and breeds dogs. Yeah, used to breed these really violent dogs, at least not call them violent, but anyway, mean spirited. I started out like not pit bowls. But when I first moved to Michigan twenty six seven years ago, I got a German short hair and it was a nice dog and you know, a little hyper strong, little little goofy. And I didn't know objection about training. I I couldn't get the dog to sit, but I but you wanted at four hunting. Yeah, And this dog was a good grouse dog and a good woodcock dog, and I took it to South Dakota. But other than that, I was just I got lucky. Just this dog just like oh, out of the box. It just did everything you mean sigon No, No, this is queeny long time. Yeah, the white and brown. So that wasn't the violent kind. No. And then when I was a pointer, yeah, it's a point. All my dogs have been pointing. You've always been into points, Like I want a real quick hunt dogs occurring what three creditories? Let's say you got just just like like laid us out. Basically you got pointers, retrievers, and trackers. Is that how you can do what we call them pointers flushers? And then there'd be tracking dogs, which would be lion dogs or coon dogs, dogs bare dogs. So pointers, flushers and trackers it's fair to say, yeah, yeah, it's fair all right. And you've always been into the pointers and that's good because I know it adds into the flushing break retrievers, retrievers. But as as far as the field work, it's a flushing dog, yeah, yeah. He mainly uses it for it to go pick up dead stuff. That's which and and we'll get to this. In my opinion that the dog can do is I would leave it in its kennel so I couldn't find something, and I would go home and get it and have it find it. Yeah, yeah, all right. But anyways, so your dog, you're don you're doing like your your life through dogs. I made one of those mistakes like I got like I jumped in with both feet and I started reading too many articles and I got a German wire haired pointer. That dog hated me. It was a good hunter, but it had no cop No, no, this is zon This is the way before you met Zagon. His name was Hasko is a black wire hair which is a little rare. At that time, he had all the talent in the world and I had no skill level to train the obedience. Some dogs when a really high desire and really there's a top shelf dog. It needed to be It needed to be told who was alpha. It needed a boss, and that I can't keep my wife listened too bad dog listen to me. This dog. I took this dog to Canada when he was like four or five years old to hunt sharp tailed grouse and I only shot grouse over my buddies. Griffin, my dog hunted like over there and over there and shot retreat birds for other people. The dog hated me. That's when my that's funny because my hate of hunting dogs, my my kind of hate of hunting dogs comes from people telling me throughout my life. This is going back to high school. People be like, oh, I got this great hunting dog. We're gonna take my great hunting dog out and go hunt. And you open the door or open the back of the truck, and that's some of a bitch takes off and he's like, yeah, sure, I can't contest that he's not a great honting dog who knows what he's doing wherever he is. He might be hunting up a storm, but it's not happening around me, right right. And then you spend your whole time trying to get the dog back in the truck and hollering at it and blowing a whistle, and it's it's aggravating you. You were with me with some of the dogs I have remember something. Yeah, your dogs now are different, right right? But then you got into the mean ones. That was the German wire hair and and those dogs are meant for killing. They're very good at it. They would kill a raccoon. See in Germany, when they started the versatile breeds, the wire hair was put together. It was a poodle Pointer, which is a poodle, but it's a another wire haired dog, Stickle her short hair, and um, I can't remember the other breed. But anyway, there was like four basic breeds put in there. And they wanted a dog that would not only you know, point a bird. They wanted to track blood. And because everything was privately owned all the biggest states in Europe, only the wealthy hunted back in the eighty and they wanted the dog to kill a poor guy if they caught him hunting on their land. No, no, the dogs like people, they do but what they were expected to do, and they still do. And I don't want to say a secret society dog club and I won't mention it, but they this breed a dog. If you have one that still registered in Berlin, it has to kill before it's allowed to breed a full grown raccoon. Where do they get the raccoons by itself? No help for the owner, No no, no, no, I mean no no. The dogs they trap a raccoon and I have a hard trap. This raccoon's in Europe. No, No, but there's there's uh, there's a there's a similar The point is here we talk here. Yeah, it's like I think it's a guinea pig. They have to killing guinea pig. No. No, what they've done is they've used a raccoon here because that's what we have here. They but the point was that dog was expected to get rid of vermin out on these estates. Tunny if they come across the skunk, a polecat, whatever they call me, anything that's gonna eat birds exactly, anything that they basically made this like sterile environment where game birds and game animals, rabbits and game animals would flourish. By that dog, it might have done it. I mean they've been doubly running down the woods, going through looking for grouse and stuff, and all of a sudden, wham, there's a raccoon that was like nested up by a log or a skunk. One bite on the back of the neck, and that was desirable. That's what the Germans wanted. Doesn't work so good. When you come to America, you go to a farmer, knock on his door and it takes two of his house or his yard cats out of his bar and it was his best mousing cat. So but anyway, so I had to desire to him headstrong question about the raccoons. That's some hardcore ship because Florida pig hunting, we saw a peg of dogs fighting raccoon. Well, that that was a pussy dog. These were one of those dogs get gouged bad by a pig. But still I'm saying, that's amazing that they killed. But what I'm saying is to remember there's a lot of German wire hares in this country. There's different registrates with him. If you stay to this one format, it's called vd D G n A, And if you stay that format, your dog has to pass certain performance tests before you're allowed to breed the dog, and the dog has to be in front of a breed warden to make sure it's the write height, the right size of teeth. If the coat's not right, they'll only let you bring it to a coat that's gonna compliment it. It's it's how do I say, It's like a lot of whiskey whiskey tube mentality, and that's the way there. And those dogs that I thought I wanted and I stuck with for fifteen eighteen years. Um, it wasn't more than I could handle, but it was like a penis extension dog. No, it wasn't my Corvette. It wasn't a Corvette dog or nothing like that, but it was I thought it would be cool to have a dog that could do all that. But you didn't realize how nasty Dick could get sometimes. Yeah, like that's what it really meant. Yeah, like my buddies dog come off the tailgate. I'm putting a collar on my dog. He did the most dogs sniff aster or at least tiptoe and look at each other before they fight. This dog just jumped off the tailgate. When I was like, you're so embarrassed, You're like so anyway, So that that's yeah, that's where I That was my predominant breed for the center of my dog year. And at that time, you were involved with the same organization, right, the same organization. It's called NAVDA North American Versal Hunting Dog Association. And what we have we haven't really even introduced at our net yet, but just real quick, what's the organization you're involved in? American Counnel Club a k C as a judge. As a judge is what I'm associated with it. But that's what you I mean, you sort of measure dogs by that standard, by the hot test standard. Yes, that there's also field trials have you heard of? I mean, are you aware of North American Dog Association with a lot of guys that have pointers too, So so NAVDA. You're involved in NAVDA now, but you were involved in NAVIT when you had wire hairs, right even before I became a judge form I was involved with them and you know, try to learn and clean everything I could from the other trainers and the other breeders and everything. But um and that, like all the dogs that you're talking that you've talked about Queen, Yeah, was what queens? A short hair then a German wire hair hasko in Sigon and and now the new kind of dogs you're tangled up with have all fallen under. Versatile hunting dog versatil hunting dog is a dog that, if you look it up in a dictionary, it's a dog that's gonna hunt and point and do work before and after the shot on landing on water. That's basically the description of it. So what we what we want is a dog that will basically performing any terrain. And if water is the terrain, water is a terrain. What's that? All trained dog? I didn't get that so real quick, rattle off a handful of species, it would be a T D S and then, um, what kind of dog you're messing around with? Now? Well? The most common ones everybody knows of German short hairs, English pointers, Brittany's English setters, uh, Poodle pointers, vislas, a lot of fiashless getting real popular. Monster Landers, which is a like a setter looking dog from Germany. There's I think twenty two of them now in our registry. And naptists I can't think of every is a wimber whiner in there, wine writers in there. Also. This gal used to live down the road. Do you remember the Johnson family sort of lived across Middle Lake from my sister. Yeah, they had a dog that they named Nipper, a winmer whiner named Nipper, but it would always bite people, and they got to think that the reason that bit people because his dog's name was Nipper and he was just fulfilling his name. And then they changed his name to Bowser. Did it help. I can't remember, but I was a personal hunting dog or not. No, it's there. There they are in the they are in the Basically all the European breeds that point are considered versatile hunting dogs. They're not. Over the years, a lot of them become specialist dogs. So they like, like an English center is going to pretty much be your predominant Grousewood's dog up in the north. A pointer we're in Texas, right, and a pointer is you going to be a predominant bird down here in Texas for quail? And because it's a shorter coded dog is not gonna get hot you know, it's uh, that would be pronounced. They are still in di versatile category, but for generations they've been bred as a specialist. So to take one and transition it into a water dog is a little more difficult than it is. But to transition any versatile dog into a water dog, you just take their field desire and push it into the water. They find that the water has the animals in it, just like the field has the animals, and they're just excited as hell to go out into a Martian look for a duck. But they're probably not equipped to stay warm. No, that's a fault with them because very few of them have a really good dual coat that will protect them in cold, cold seal. Yeah, yeah, they'll come out of the water. Look, I don't need at all. Yeah, well we're gonna tell no. But I got one last thing for you though, the dogs you're into now, which is a reasonable dog, right, it's kind of dog. Does faith Hill still have one? Yes, they have like three or four of them. Yeah. I don't lust after women besides my wife, but that is don't. But um, I go. I go to Las Vegas every year for this thing, and for the last like two years in a row, and all the elevators there's an ad for a faith Hill concert m and it's just such a it's like such an intoxicating ad campaign. I have no no desire. What's over to go senior in concert. But when I'm standing in the elevator, which is all you do in Las Vegas, right up down the elevator, Um, she's always advertising there and I'm always looking at her, thinking about your dog, because he told me that she has one. Yeah, she has several of her. I think it's Tim's more than hers. But something is that why you sell your dogs so fast, like before they even hit the ground out of the hardly anybody knows they have them. Yeah, I mean the Brocco people have them. But no, but so Ronnie's now'll tangled up with a dog called a Italian brocco, Brocco Italiana, Brocco Italiano depends on how you want to say it. And it's a very hondy looking dog. It's a very when people see it. When I'm in Virginia, there's a lot of bear hunters in Virginia, like more bear hunter there's more bar in Virginia than any place I've ever been. And people because I was at Prince Wales Island, your and people will come up to my external dog box and they'll be standing by my tailgate. What kind of bear dog is that? God, I've never seen one orange before. And I just say Italian pointer because they're like rocco what I leave that out. But it's just a it's a versatile dog, but it was really never bred for the versatility in Italy. It was pretty much an upland bird. But then again, so we're most English pointers and that's a dog you could actually bring into your house without killing your kids. It yeah, and it won't. It doesn't kill animals, it doesn't. You know, it doesn't have that fur drive because the Italians over all these centuries just wanted to hit birds with them, so they use these dogs. I understand. I've never seen it, never been in Italy, but there's supposed to be frescoes from the fourteenth century with very very close pictures that resemble the Broco, which was either the I can't remember the other Spanish pointer, but all the same thing, very very long years, a nose like Jimmy Duranny on it, and and so there's like they've been pretty much breeding true to type for what's fourteens from six years. And the dog is very docile. It's like Ed's Labs. I mean, I told that, you know, let watch my dogs. Well, what are they gonna do? He says, you're right, He says, well, if you're out there having a smoke, just keep it up. Yeah, they just come up. And I finally have this dog that's a pointing dog that acts like that Labs. They're like, you know, they just come up and now they'll but they would run out of the driveway, like right now if I let my dogs out, they be not gone fire, but they just be gone at this hundred or two hundred yard range and I'd have to be screaming and panicking and everything. Yeah, yeah, there met the last the last lab. You know. Danny had that dog for a while, like my brother Danny had a duck hunt dog. Recently he went down to an adoption like a dog. I don't know when all this like bringing human terms came. The dogs used to go to the pound and get a dog. Now you're like, I rescued the dog. It's like, I don't know what about, but people have been rescuing dogs all as long as people are going to the pound and picking up a dog. So he went to a rescue place, you know, and the dog he picked out his cry. His criteria for picking out a dog is it's just a building. It's a it specializes in labs. It's a pound for labs. And he went in there and every lab and every lab rescue, yea lab rescue. He went in there and except one stood up when he walked in, and he's like, I'll take the one that laid that didn't get up. It was a great dog. It was a great dog he died justly. Yeah, he was cool about when it died. But a buddy of his was saying how he was real depressed man when his dog died. Tig like tick Welder. Yeah, Um, they're like your kids, Yeah, he thought so. All right, we'll be right back to talk a lot more about labs and other hunting dogs. Speaking of labs, I wanna tell one other lab story before we talked to that about labs for it, just to get the break down. And last, because well, two things. The only dog I ever really liked. We had many, many dogs, many would just vanish. Had that one Lab that was there. Friend. Man. We had dogs. We had Mike, Kayla, Snoopy, and we had all dogs. I didn't even know what all dogs. But they would never laugh. My dad would just get rid of him. One time we were this is awful to a man. He's dead, so no one's continued. Probably have him rescued. Yeah, he had him rescued like from life. But we're going down the road one day and we were going rabbit hunting. I was a kid. We're going rabbit hunting, and lo and behold, there's a beagle on the side of the road that dog became our dog. I mean it was like what timing was like. He took that dog and that dog was Bobo was his name, and that dog became our dog just as simple as opening the door of the truck and the dog called the dog in the truck probably stole someone's dog, and the Bobo lived with this for a long time because my dad had a good beagle, no no collar, no tag. I don't even remember someone. He's like, we're going to rabbit hunt. Apparently here's you know, here's this dog. So we had that dog. We had that dog for a while, Bobo, because it reminded my add of a good He used to have a lot of cocktails in Illinois, Illinois. But the one lapster I want to tell us is funny telling. I want to tell just because Ronnie's here is me and Ronnie went. I don't know how it happened. We went on a guided That was the first guy that ever went in my entire life. When I go hunt for a couple of days in which I got one snow goose, I think, and I got none. And at a point the guide, if you call him that, you know we're out there at two in the morning, because you have set out like thousands of decoys. At one point the guide goes to take he goes to relieve himself. He goes to take a growler, and he goes just like right behind us, you know what I mean, like you'd smell it behind us the trees. The trees were only another right behind us. And we're in layout blinds. Okay, and so you just stuck in a layout blind and as their comments, here's his lab back there. I know where this is going, right, there's this laugh back there to oilet paper hanging out of his mouth, you know, cleaning up, and and you already stuck in these bloods and in the lab all morning is going up and down the line of guys trying to kiss and lick everyone's face because he's just friendly. And he's been doing that all morning. But now we know what he was doing. He's like if a human being eight dogshit. And it came up to you and said, give me give me a kiss. No, no no, no, no no, just give me kiss, just give me kiss. Well I just it was, there's nothing I ate it, Just give me kiss all morning. And it didn't. So I he loved labradors. Yeah, And I do like I do too. I like him too, but uh ed Arnett, I don't add from t RCP Theater Roosevelt Conservation Partnership. We met like at at things events, formally formal. Informal events, you go to a lot of hunting bets and meet a lot of guys don't do a lot of hunting. It's possible, you know, But um it ed and I hit it off. This the first time we actually gotten there to hunt. But I know that you just judged by your trailer alone, your dog man. You got like a polished dog trailer. Have you always been into like retrievers labs? Or do you? Did you do the whole point your thing too? Um? I got an interesting story on how it happened because I really got into duck hunting when I moved to Oregon, and I've shot birds since I was I started hunting I was ten years old, but I never hunted with Illinois. Yeah, right out of high school Texas, I was cliche and went west as a young man right out of high school Colorado and then moved to Montana, Wyoming, Oregon. S been a good chunk of time are in Texas and then uh now I'm back in Colorado. So um, I never hunted with a dog though, or even anybody with a dog. And when I was going we were talking today about uh, you know, hunting in the East Gallatin, hunting spring creeks and jump shooting or hitting pheasants, but also jump shooting mallards and just go pick up everything myself and at least at least tried to eat. Here comes the funny part of the story. So so we'd go out you know, the like the septic ponds that were out there in Belgrade, and we'd go out there. You're talking about jump shooting some of those. We'd go out there and jump shoot those. I take a fishing pole and throw a big gas, you know, snagging hook all the ducks and if you didn't kill them on land. So you do that for a while and you think, boy, this seems silly. And then I got to Oregon and I had I went hunting with a guy and he had chesapeaks, and I really was impressed with with how well behaved the dog was and and how great it was to have a dog going out and getting the birds and everything. So we had an non opening weekend of this was back in the or something. And so I go hunting after that opening weekend and I put a stock and some mallards and a reservoir in Oregon, and I doubled on green heads and it was great, and they all fall out in the lake and I'm like, all right now, how the hell am I gonna go get them there out in the lake? So I stripped down naked, and I swam out and got those two mallards, and I said, I'm buying a freaking dog after this. That's a true story, And I started looking at I went and got a lab that winner. I totally understand it, man, because the times I've hunted, like, we used to jump shoot a lot of ponds in Michigan, And in Michigan you have a lot of cat tails around duck ponds, you know, and they probably jump shooting ducks is like over decoys are coming toward you, and they usually land closer than where they were when you hit them. There're any goals, right, jump shooting going away? Yeah, they're already far away, and then they're gonna be far other way by the time they land, and you've got these seas of cat tails and you're like, bamn, that thing starts going down and it goes down and you just get like a sink and feeling like I will never ever find it. You can you look and look and look. Then you go out there with the dog, and that's something that just runs over and like six his head underwater and pulls it out. That made me a believer. It is not like if if they made a dog, you can put in a thing in your pocket, just get it out when you needed it and like put water on it, it turns into a dog. Is a good retrievers, No, they're not. Well. I don't know how Ronnie feels about this, but with it, I can remember a handful of retrieves, maybe not a handful of maybe two or three handfuls, but you remember the special one. And to that, to that point, I dropped a duck way back and in a mars and I sent one of my females. She's gone now, but I sent her and she went and she came back. She hunted short and I gave her back and she went. And you can't handle a dog on a blind retrieve in that stuff. I mean, it was really thick and nasty. So I got her over the river because she didn't mark this bird. I just gave her a hard back and I let her go, and about ten minutes later she came back with that damn duly So so that's why I got it. That's how I got into it. And I didn't want to check speak for no particular reason. I just liked labs a German wire hair. Personality issues, So you mainly expect you mainly expect your dog to find down the critters. No, I expect my dog to mark and go get it and then find cripples as needed, and if I need to handle them to a blind on a blind retrieve, but mostly after the shot has been taken. That's correct. In a perfect world. You know, you want a dog that's in your blind like Sage was today when we were hunting cranes. I took the dog today because we had good enough cover to hide it. And he sat there nice and calm while those birds came in and and he didn't see a couple of them, but you know, so we just lined him up and you know, and send him out. But he he marked a few of them, and and then we walked over and picked up a couple. So but you know, you want a dog for a retriever. You want to dog that sits there, you know, nice and quiet, obedient, doesn't doesn't you know, break and run out when the geese are coming in or when you pull up the shotgun. What I'm sitting there? So they actually mark the bird when it falls. Have you always been into retrievers? Yeah, that's the only one, more kind of retrievers than than a lap Yeah. So um, if you go the you know, if you go by if a k C rules, if you will, the retriever breeds are Labradors, Golden Retrievers, chess Peak, Bay retrievers. And then for the retriever hunting tests, which I judge for and you judge after my judge a k C ron you judge for Navada, And I have a question for you about that there is an a k C equivalent for pointing dogs. Correct. Yeah, a k C has uh several tests, Yeah that we we transition right into. Yeah, you just don't blend the water in with the test day, right, Yeah, but they also have an a k C water tests like a little just to show that your dog can go do water retrieves. So a case covers a real lot of a big gamut. So the hunting test program started with um NARA, the North American Hunting Retriever Association, and then NAPPED as the equivalent. So you know, this was you know, some old field trailer guys and duck hunters that kind of got together and said, you know, we just want to go out and test these hunting skills of these dogs. So they created this North American Hunting Retriever Association. And how did you become a judge doing that? Well, I just got into dogs exactly. My first I got my first dog, after I did my famous swim, after my two mallards. UM got this dog, and I started reading books, started with Richard Richard Walters Water Dogs. That book is everywhere Man. We had that dog because of absolutely and I'll say we had We wound up with a great lab because we lived by a Coast Guard station and a woman who was in the Coast Guard was getting restationed somewhere. She couldn't bring her dog. She put her yeah, put an add the paper interviewed. A bunch of people came out to our house. We had kids, We like the hunt. We lived in a lake. She gave us the dog, and that dog we had that dog long long time, turned into I mean just as far as obedience. The only problem she was white, so it's hard to hide her in the duck with you're always putting. We guys had those army wool army blankets, always trying to lay around there, you know. But she would spot birds in the air that you didn't see and had a noise you'd make in the back of her throat. And when she made that noise, there was a burden. She was like, yeah, it was just like there's a duck. And she would find ducks that you'd find ducks you didn't shoot. You'd go out the second morning season waiting for to get light out, and you look and she'd be staying there with a duck in her mouth and duck be looking around like she went and found some duck that wasn't even dead light out. She's standing there with it. She was a great dog. She wound up just the one you hunted like the most with. That's the old we ever had legitim hunt with. Two things happened at one time. We're on one of those floating land lakes, you know how it has a false bot, and we knocked some geese down in the early season in Michigan, and there's a wounded goose very much alive it on some floating land, and she swam out and climbed up on the floating land. But her four legs and that goose beat the ship out of her. Man and she would never touch another goose again after that. The second bad thing to have there, she got hit by a van. We're out working on our BMX bikes and I don't want to say who did it, but a guy down the road hit her in a blue van carpet van and um busted her all up. We got a lot more years out of her. Eventually she got where she couldn't even stand up. And then a friend of ours been Uh, took her out in Chippewa National Forest in the up and we had to dig a hole and shoot the dog down in the hole and bury the hole. Is just terrible and I've never had another dogs since then. You know. Back to how I got into kc UM judging, So I ran the hunt tests after when my dog became of age and and I wanted to do the hunt test. Hand trials are very as a handler. Hunt tests are very different than the field trawlers, and the reason they put those programs together was to test dog hunting abilities and like like keep I want at the end of this, I want to explay like in you too. I don't want to forget to ask you this. Do you think that a test can you test the dog in a way that actually demonstrates how that dog will perform in the field. Just keep in the back of your head. Sure you don't need to do it now. Remember well, I was really into this new this new dog I got, and I trained her almost every day. Didn't and you need to when they're really young, traded with it towards the test exact Well, yeah, I kind of got into the test. But you know everybody starts off saying I just want to get hunting dog and go and test sometime. And you see a dog before me, like, I gotta have that, exactly, I gotta have it. I have a I have a Nova, But I really want to cast you know, yeah, no, no, no, I'd pick your favorite Beater car. But you want you want the Maserati when you see him run and then so the field trials is different than the hunting tests. The hunting test you you were judged against a standard. You set up a test and if the dogs pass that, the field h hunting tests again under different field scenarios. In a field trial, they it's a winner take all, so first, second, first, second, third placement. And some of these field trial dogs, now, I mean they'll they'll mark readily out to four hundred yards. That's not a realistic hunting situation. Dogs, and look at where it is if you can see it. But if you see it, but he can be handled to four yards, probably couldn't he right. But you know, if you were in a situation where you were high enough and the dog actually could see it, there are there are many dogs that could could actually run out market if they have been trained to deal with the train, the wind, all these factors that play in mental memory. And that's what labs have. Labs have that marking memory. Like most pointing dogs do not have that marking memory. A lab will like you can and you guys train it pull these different retreats. Well, your average dog are gonna go get that last thing you threw, and you go, no, you're gonna go get the second thing I threw. You remember that they can all I can talk to I mean I can get define mark because mark retree is when the dog actually sees the bird or is supposed to see it, and a blind retrieve is when they don't see the fall and you give them hands that you send them on a I send it on you. He has no idea exactly, so it's a teamwork, so lost birth. But he might go out and find it. That's well that somebody's got still roughly guided. Yeah, well, you know, an ethical hunter will watch those birds until they're completely out of sight. You've seen many an approximation of where it is, and he'll look around exactly. And if I don't think I could handle him to a bird, I don't send my dogs on very many blinds quite frankly, and hunting situations yourself to go over there and get the dog on the bird and make sure make sure you find it in the area fall. If it's practical to send him, I've I've sent him on several, but you know, more often than not, you're walking him out there to to find a cripple, going out to the cranze the day the dog is new though, yeah he saw him and also he saw him or let me just fit it real quick the one that the one that Ronnie you shot today and landed on the bank. He didn't see it, but I lined him up and I just lined him and he and he could see it right there. So then when he saw it, I locked him and I said, but even if he couldn't have saw it, Ed lined him up, and he learns from that key of Ed's hand, that's right. You put your hand over the head dog his head, and that dog's gonna finds he's supposed to look in that direction and pay attention. He saw the bird land there. Now, had he not seen it, I would have said back, and then when he veers off course you hit him with a sinistle. We give him to handle back. So this is this quick question, and I got some more, but just try to answer as quickly as possible, because this is something I think a lot of people come up with. Then you guys probably encounter all the time. Is like people, there are so many dudes out there who got a dog. There was gonna be like the big hunting dog, and it winds up not it winds up not being you know, and when that happens, I typically think, you know, maybe the dog didn't have talent but I typically think like that they didn't have the time due to due to obligations or laziness, they didn't take the time to train the dog. How Let's say you a fella goes out and gets a puppy. What is the bare minimum days put it by in terms of days and week days and month whatever, What is the bare minimum you better be prepared to put into that dog when you bring it home to ever expect to have a dog that isn't gonna embarrass you in front of your bodies or there isn't just gonna be a detriment to your hunting. I think probably more like hours a week exactly. Well, yeah, and it's to me, it's more repetition, um than it is length of time. It's more short duration training sessions than a few long ones old a little every day exactly. That's that's much better than like one Saturday a week. So, and it's particularly important in my opinion, the first year is critical. I mean, you know, little baby's brains are like a sponge. So's a dog, um, you know, and they want to work, they want to they want to please you. How many hours a week? I know it's hard to answer that way, but what would you say, you know, um, you know, I probably spent more than I more than I showed up, but it's probably ten fifteen hours a week, right, And then there's considerable investment though it's a it's a considerable if you want to train, if you want to basically not back to your question, which was just yeah, that's a half hour a day. So and it's for half an hour a day, you're gonna have a dog better than the guy who doesn't spend at half hour a day, you know. But one of the other biggest things that this is my biggest gripe with all dogs, and I'm sure Ed knows it too, is there's there's seven inherited traits to a pointing dog, and I guess there'd be six to a a flushing dog. You know, there's desire, pointing, cooperation, tracking. Um, well, that's embarrassing. I can't remember investing. But anyway, there's my books together road. There's inherited traits that this dog comes with in a in a package and inherited me like out of the box the box, and all you gotta do is like expose a little bit and and it's just like holy come my dog's holding point. He bring out stuff that's just there. It's just they're already and enhancing the instinct. And so then that training, you could get one of those dogs out of a litter. It's just what we call it natural, like you know you natural athletes in high school. The guy that could play all the sports and I couldn't run, you know. Yeah, it's like the dog. It's like the dog we're talking about. We cycled through as a family, many dogs and also here comes this dog. No one new anything about it. It It was just like this dog car what you thought about it to like to find dogs? So that was all we were looking for you. That's where my that's my hallmark for a dog is. I can have a lower desired dog, but it's got to have a high cooperation. And my wire hairs didn't have well, one of them did, but most of them didn't. My short hair had. Yeah, she was okay. But natural cooperation in a in a hunting dog, it's like an unspoken teamwork. You get stuff from them. Then the training is easy because they're like, oh this is this isn't there's dogs. I don't care who that trainer is. And you've seen people have made a lab get a title that don't deserve a title, you know. I mean, I'm sure you've probably Yeah, I've given a prize one dog and I'm going I wouldn't put that dog in my truck. But this guy has overwhelmed all the faults and this dog with obedience. This dog is just like on pins and needles, but he's he's mastered with obedience. Train. But if you can get a dog that's cooperative, that means he wants to work with you, Like like a little dog that first bird and you get that puppy grabs a bird or whatever you throw, he just brings it back to you. You're like, we might have something here, but the one that runs around the backyard and like you're going, even as you're going, I gotta work with this dog and you have to work. A guy can take the pep out of a dog by pushing obedience too much. Oh yeah, you can definitely an act. Their behavior can be different. They can turn into little assholes, but some of them need to need more. And then there's other dogs are like that, like that kid that went to that he did better at Catholic school than he would have done in public school because the nuns just got him every and that's what dog training is, right, And I mean it's like timing the Catholic nuns. I had all my friends Catholic school. You know, Ronnie, this is this is, this is the digression. Did I want to get some fast questions? I want to answer, Ronnie, you're just not that old. But in his public school and swimming class, the boys all swim. That's the next episode on his podcast. It just sounds so long ago we had that. We had that happened in Alaska. We had that whole big conversation. Nobody believed it. But yeah, you're right, I've never heard that they all swimming class public high school boys had no suits. You swim naked. And when I went to when I was being born the last day of October, second, the last day of October, I was not as mature as the other boys. Yeah, there was no hair down there and it was really like kind of pain. That a digression. Anyway, real quick back to this and then when I want to ask the rapid fire dog. So anyway, my that's this is what I look for more than a dog. Is that natural cooperation? Then you it's just makes the whole training thing easier. You can screw it up, but it makes the whole thing easier, and it's easy to see in a puppy. You can see cooperation issues all the time. In a puppy, you can usually pick out the wallflower and the bowl and then the what you want one in between. Exactly, you don't want, you don't want to work dependent on. Yeah, you don't want the one that thinks I'm the boss. Yeah, so yeah, exactly. I think it's kind of like that finding a mate to man. You might have something might yet I should write a relationship book. Now, be honest, I want you to do something. I want you to role play. What are you doing on your phone? There? I'm trying to get a picture of who's who's messing with their cord? Bad? Someone fiddling with their cord? Everbody hold dead still except be honest, I'll do what you were doing. Yeah, it's you drive me nuts? Sorry, not bad a little bit. What do you do on your phone? We're wasting time. I want I want you, I want you, I want I want you to role play as a dude who likes to hunt a little bit of everything, asking a question about what kind of dog he needs. I can do that because I was actually doing that you earlier today. No, no, no, yeah, you're a fellow like your honest lizen. Bows in Montana, a lot of hunting opportunities, upland waterfowl, mountain lions. I have two young kids, two young kids, and he can't be having get killed by dogs. His wife could be really mad about that. Please don't like it either, Please don't like him. What dog does he honest want? So I'm saying I put us to a pointer guy and a retriever guy. But you guys find consensus. You got to find consensus. I think I'm ask the question, will interject one more thing a pointer guy has to. I think a pointer guy and a retriever guy are both chasing an ideal. Right, A pointer guy dreams of that moment, right, and there's the dog locked down, point right, shotgun at the ready. The tail is just slightly like a super staff, not giving you a little, just not like flash and just ready to rock. So that's his image. Yeah, I think the retriever guy's image is is his dog in flight out of the blind into the icy cold water, and he swims out and brings you the dog. Yeah, that's a good vision. My brother in law's chocolate lab stage who's also named Sage. Interesting female. This dog. These guys are shooting just Drake's this dog sits on the bow and when he calls that dog's name, that dog, with no running start hits the water fifteen feet out. I mean it's prettier time. Ye see that. That's the picture right there, man, I mean it's like, yeah, Yanny's showing a picture this to your brother in law down Tennessee. Yeah, he's got a black lab, chocolate chocolate lab. He's got a bunch of mallards hanging there and springs kennel. Kennel's is where it's. That's where he bought it from. As G Gordon Liddy says, we're not going to take a break for crass commercial messages, all right. So there's your honest just moved, you know, young Strap and lad, two young kids just moved to Bowlsman. He's got upland waterfowl. He goes. He says to you guys, he he says at first, and what kind of dog do I want? Man? I just want a dog that's ready to roll. I don't even know what I'm gonna be doing. Give him your pitch. I'm willing to put some time in training. He's willing to put a little money down, not a lot. You don't want to spend more than a thousand dollars dollars he let's just also add this, I excuse him, I excuse him of his debt of a thousand dollars. Then I'll get him a dog. And he doesn't want to spend any more than that. He doesn't want to spend any more than that on a dog, and that's absolute top limit. He'd be a lot happier to spend three. You can't do that, okay, Okay. First, I'm smart enough to know that what I'm getting into is gonna cost a little bit of money, just like bing cheap range finders. You guys spend a little money. Okay. So that that first questioned, what's his budget? If he's smart, his budget should be a thousand minimum. Okay. So that's what i'd sell my puppies to you for. All right, So your honest again, I already know his credentials, says, do you ask them? Just say it right now as your role play, ed, can you do it? Laughing? See see yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm looking for a dog that can really do everything as well as come inside at the end of the day, hang out with my girls. Be a family dog. I can put in ten hours a week with it. That's great. Train it. You're gonna take that. That's a lot of time. But that time comes away from your dogs a lot of time. But we're gonna do it together. He's doing it with his children. So you're not like messing here. We can't do You could if you're home enough, you could do an hour day. But you know what not to stop the question. But you also remember a young dog, you don't do an hour day. You do it little little five minutes here, tens three or five, fifteen minutes. She comes longer and longer. You know what I said, I want to get I want to I want to I want to get I want to get here. Of course my bias, here's your it's it's biased answer. But the Labrador Retriever is without exception, one of the best dogs for all around hunting conditions, and they're really great family dogs. But it can't find bird, they can't find pre shot birds, they can't find a live birds. Again, he's not. I'm not following that. Yeah, they will go out and find before you shot him. Yeah, yeah, because you got what you got on the retriever side of it. So you feel like they're pretty reliable to find the dog that you hunted, that I hunted with today. Sage, my sage. That is one of the better pheasant labs I've ever had. Pavil No no, I keep that the dogs are divided into Flush's advocate. No, no, no. These are good up on dog. You have to train them on all of this stuff. But they're good in the duck blind, they're good on upland, and they're great with the family. But what yeah, let me let me put what he will not do. He won't point, but there are pointing labs. But you know what will in some way, once you get in tune with their body language, will, in their own inadvertent way, alert you to the presence of a bird. Sure, who did I tell the story? He's trying to find it, but you know by his body language that something's it's getting close, it's getting close. I told you last night on the way back about stage and the last two roosters. He was telling me the right here. Yeah, he was out hunt. He got real sick of walking. It kind of stopped, looked back from here from the top of the hill, kind of being like, you have to be kidding me, you have to this is so exciting. And he goes out there and there's two peasants. But this is the problem with the flushing breeds versus the pointers. I ran my ass off chasing that dog because he's really good on runners, and he was chasing a running blackbird. And so you want to put your tennis shoes on and chase a flush here after birds. Otherwise you do a gentleman lay and go to the point. So I gotta say, I almost don't want to lab just because everybody not everybody. Now I know somebody that doesn't have a You don't want a common dog. Everybody's got where do they run in Laba? I have no idea. I pake that curse hunts alright, something it runs pigs. You already gold the questions. So there's honest He's gonna give you an abbreviated verse the question in lvin tell me why I am sure? Come out, miss MIDI m sand hill cranes. I would say that what you need no if I was going to sell my breed of dog too. I would say the shortcomings, and my dogs would be, oh, that's a that's tactful. Start with the short because he lives with a big cell. You live in Bozeman, Montana, And if you are going to do a fair amount of winter of foul waterfall hunting, then you don't want one of my dogs because you're gonna have to put a vest on. It's gonna it has a very short coat. I do have one male that goes through Cedar you know Cedar Creek all the time, walks that creak and but that creek runs through my veins man that yeah, he walks right up to January one when we have to quit. He walks that creek doesn't get cold. But most of them they're gonna be chacken like a and that's a cold ass place too. Yeah, I mean you're like, ducks show up, they're really good to say of My thing would be like, if you think you're gonna do more duck hunting, then you want to get something with a really good coat, and you can't get a better coat than a lab well, maybe a chessie. I don't know. I think it's if you really get a good lab coat Jesse's. But I mean they got they're warmer than a lab. Yeah, they're denser, I think probably. But I think I'm kind of digressing here. But what ed faces in a lot of pointing breeds face is so many people have bred these dogs without the concern for coat and confirmation. You're getting labs that don't have a good coat, you know what I mean. So because they've been breeding as house dogs, house dogs and and show dogs and everything else, and so that that makes a difference. But the breed I have now, the Brocco Taliano, that is, it's a couch potato. It is a Yeah, I absolutely you'd find upland birds with it. You you could jump shoot ducks, you could you could go out break some skim ice, shoot a few birds, put a vest on it. But if you're gonna really be out in the cold a lot, I would I would go with a dog with a better coat, either another versatile dog if you wanted a pointer or a lab. And we kind of both kind of laughed about the pointing labs is that's been around him for years, I'm sure, and a navda are our kind of joke is when somebody says, well, our pointing labs ever gonna come into NAVDA and one of the leaders of our group goes, a pointing lab is a fault. It's a flushing dog. Why why why would you want a pointing dog that didn't hold point? Why would you want a flushing dog? It stops in the middle of what he's doing. You know, It's like it'd be like if you've meant an exotic dancer is a good cook. Wrong. My very first lab, actually I wouldn't say she was a pointer by any means, but you know, she's she got up on the bird and she she knew it was there, so I smelled it, so I just told her to stay. I would walk up and just say get him, and she those I would love to have one of those, you know, but she was a flusher whatever. People have started to try to just make this new breed of pointing labs, and I don't I'm sure they're not. I don't know how I like to know, how do you feel about it? Like? When what was how long we been going for? And I got a bonus question, you got bose questions, and you gotta give me the pitch, and he wrote down a question that he hasn't answered yet. Okay, anyway that my pitch would be, if you wanted a pointing dog, that would be a great family dog. I'd have to agree with my breed of Brocateliano's or possibly be some uh Griffin, wire haired pointing Griffon, maybe a Visila. Back to the short haired. Those breeds are not they're the other two are kind of popular, but they're a little bit more on a docile side. A German wire hair is a little crazy. German short hairs wine Riners And again, everyone's gonna if people hear this thing, go oh you son of a bitch. I'm saying, just people's rifle caliber. There's gonna be You're not websites where people defend pit bulls. Now, I'm sorry, I don't want one next to me. I know there's some sweetheart pit bulls out there. I just don't want one next to me. So when I say general statement, um, you'd want one of the more docile pointing breeds that are known for being a little more laid back, you know, with the family. Yeah, and if you want to, you're not giving a good cell. You've devoted, like you've devoted a huge portion of your life to these dogs, and you're basically telling a guy, i'd go get a lab but if you want one, to get a docile one. No, I know there's more in you because if it wasn't, you wouldn't have. This is all you've ever been, like, like since you know, when you're besides your work and your family, this is what you loved and you're not you're not telling the boy. Yeah, but see, I don't I don't like hard sell a dog. I just can't do it. You know, you got too much, yes, too much morals and stuff. Yeah, it's just like it just depends on what you want, right, I I would just that's it's just not the right question to ask me because I want more information about what you want. And I'm gonna say, hey, I'll tell people. I don't think you said all around when you say all around, and here's not a bonus, and will make it all around. My bonus question is you all know a much more of a big game hunter than I am, small game waterfowl, birds, whatever. So I don't even know if it's legal in Montana, you can't do in Colorado, but if I had a trail of wounded animal dog you know in Montana, I don't know, Michigan, you can, can. I think you used to not be able to also became able to recently someone I think, I I totally if you've I know, it's hard to figure out if you've hitting wounded a dog or hitting mood today and not a dog hitting moonded a big game man, Well, I don't. I think that anything you can throw at it to find it, you should be able to throw at it to find it. And I haven't heard both sides of the story. Maybe it's a great army. Why not. I just don't see, like, how would the retrieval of the game ever be a negative? I just can't picture, well, illegals, right, But the reason it's legals because people would run them. Yeah, I know, you're you're heading people, you're heading off abuse. Yeah you know. I mean it's like it's so hard to discuss laws and legal stuff. Like my brother has a rule when he discusses the stuff, he's talking about what's the goal or the legislation rather than how people are going to get around it? And so I support the goal personal ethics here, Yeah, support the goal we want to find. We want to find that. Yeah, first and foremost, that dear was going to help him retrieve that. Look, that dog is not gonna be with you on that bow hunt. You know, let's say you're not using a dog to help you on the bow. No, let's say you make a you know, your shots not quite right on. You're not gonna spend a day twenty four hours looking for it, exhausted and go, Okay, it's time to go home and get the dog, because all we gotta drops for, you know, half a mile. Well, if I was going to speak to what you're looking for then, and and I know labs are used for tracking. I mean they can do a great job of tracking. They'll find when you can train them. If you really want to do they can certainly do it. Um but the versatile breeds again, this would not be maybe my breed, although mine have. I have one guy that works for bear archery that tracks a bunch of yeer with his dog all the time, with with a brocko and uh, but some of the virstail breeds tracking recovery of crippled game, was there their biggest, biggest least that was the barometer there's an old saying when it comes to pointing breeds. The Germans want a tracking dog that will point, and the Americans want a pointing dog that will track. So can I kind of cut it real quick? Montana, it's legal to track with a leash dog. Pretty good. That's a great compromise. A compromise, yeah, most dogs, most states. I think it's leash most states. That's reasonable. He's not gonna be killing other stuff? Now? Is that Is that reasonable to ask out of the dog? Absolutely? God As, That's where it comes into the demeanor of not being crazy. It's like, okay, and you train them that way, you train them un the leash. You you do blood, so they just know, like that leash is not a big deal. I know I'm pulling my dad along, but he's not going crazy. And yeah, I've seen dogs do that. One wire hair black one and he asked what we talked about. He he tracks several day. He killed it, killed a couple dear to the point of being able to got him. We are in a small house, Texas and one of the less right now earlier buttocks hurt, so um, just to wrap I want to wrap all your your bonus questions taken care of edge should answer it briefly. What was the question? Yeah, I love big game and I'd be great if my dog, if I could train my dog to do that. You just said, if you know, you can train him to do anything. Just a quick side note. The dog we hunted with the day's stage. I actually trained him to find dead bats and birds under wind turbans. I used to do research on windmill and faytal windmills and Faytali. Where were you doing network? Mostly back east in Pennsylvania, going to if they really are if they killed bats and mostly bats, but the birds as well. But I actually trained him and I got him trained in five days and he'd go out and in our trials he found over the trial bats. So we were pretty But exactly, it's the desire to you just you just turned it. You've channeled. I'll tell you how we did it. Channeled it. Yeah, exactly. I just took the bats, some frozen bats, and I'd set him out there somewhere who doesn't have him when he actually found them, well so, and when he found it, i'd give him a food treat and I threw but more importantly i'd throw him a bumper. The retreat as the ultimate, so then you reward him and then you just phase And this is with any kind of training. You just phase out of that after a while. Then the game or the or the command or whatever it is becomes the reward. My buddy Brandt, who I mentioned Offen train you didn't same thing. He's a researcher like himself, train his dog um to find nests. I had got very good at fun very first, which he said are if you don't have a dog out there, and you don't if you don't have a dog out there and you don't have a hen who's wearing a tracker, it is extremely difficult to find darkness in high grass. And he would just he just knocked it out of the park finding with that dog. I did the same thing with my first, my first lab. She would get there and destroy the eggs. She'd get there and be like, right right here is the same note. That's why they do all the banning of woodcock and what um crowse with pointing dogs because when they come into the scent, he won't get in the crush it right, So it's it's like can't and you're right there it's a dog. Tell the dog to wall. It's got to be trained dog that you can do all the work with the eggs or the Yeah, so your bonus question, you can you can train these dogs, but one dog more out of the box is gonna want to do it? Probably some kind of well, it's probably be a bloodhound, right, it would do that would be there, and that would be I would say, yeah, if if all you wanted to do was track. The problem is with a with the hound group. Do you want to say bloodhound? Very few bloodhounds ever getting any competition and are trained for tracking anymore. It's a great old dog, but they're not real active. Um, then if you were family dogs, just quickly bloodhound. I've never had one in the house. I don't know. I think bloodhounds yeah, but I know the other dogs that would track better and faster would be your blue ticks in your uh all the coon dogs the bearer but but they's sales pitch. They don't they don't listen good. They're very independent. Who's this now? Bare dogs and coon dogs that you were looking at them? Dogs Floyd Lion dogs would kill you. Really, they're like the old lions and they gotta fight lions. Yeah, those dogs are ready to fight. One dog will go fight a line. Wow, that's it's like, hell, he would rather die than pull out of the fight. Yeah, I've never seen those dogs do not snuggle. I see my dogs probably don't want that one. Really, and it sounds like I'm being like Floyd to die if he knew out staying. The dogs to kill you, I don't know. I don't mean they kill you. Understand, Like those dogs think about one thing. They think about their group dynamic, which is very complex because there's a bunch of them. You know, you're running like you've got a dozen dogs or whatever. They think about going on and then they think about how does that relate to catching lines? You know, and that's not a dog you on for the house. So really, I think it's if you want to concentrate on blood tracking, I would say pick one of the versatile breeds because it's probably more in the gene pool. But I also know that my new son in law his family in Pensacola, Florida, they have a hunting camp in Alabama and there are two blood tracking dogs are their labs. So I mean, are they good to find a deer, Yeah they are. And then I don't think they've ever done it. But that's the guy, the son in law, and so he ran his broco with the labs, and I was broccolis tracking blood. So but I've never trained one to track big game, but I'm sure he can do it because the way I trained for trailing for pheasants is you buy a pin raise pheasant and you kill it and you drag it, and you drag it through a field and you plan it somewhere where you know where you know it is, and you get the dog out and put him on the sand and work him until he finds it. You know What's what's kind of a I don't mean to offer this as a wrap up, but what's interesting is the first time I ever went hunting pigs of dogs, they had classic trackers like hounds. Then they had where pitbulls in Hawaii and they had pit bulls they look like a pit bull that they had a dog that would track the pig. They didn't have a dog that would catch the pig and anchor it. And these dogs knew to grab that pig by the ears and they would hold that thing to the ground. So the dogs worked, come hell or high water, and these guys like, that's just how you do it. That later did that in New Zealand, and they had a dog that looked like a tone down greyhound and they even had whip it in them. They bred whip it in them for speed. And these dogs were great pig hunters. But they wouldn't actually fight the pick. They're just harassed man handle the pig. They would They would not anchor a pig. They would harass it and corner it and keep it busy while he went and caught up with it. And result the results. You gotta get in there and fight the dog. You gotta fight the pig a little bit more, but that little thing would dip. The third time I ever went did this was in Florida. You'n't stop moled earlier. Whole other deal, whole different kind of dog, no pit bulls, no whippets. Well what was it, some kind of smaller hound dog. But they had one big I can't remember her name. There was that one big cur that it looked like, Remember that big Remember the dogs all got the huge fight with the raccoon. Remember the dogs in there that board charge that dog and laid it open good. Yeah, And they had small Those dogs are small, most of them like the day pound or no, I'll probably that made. But there was one that was like a seventy seventy five pounds, big chested by the pick. No, I think it was funny about this guy what he said, big chest of this Oh this guy his dog gets you know, he's got dogs. They're getting fights the pigs all the time. And I said to him, I said, man, I said, what's your vet think you guys bringing in these cut up dogs? Does your vet think that it's like? Does he get Maddie like it's abusive to put these dogs the situations? He goes, No, I went and found a vet legs and hunt pigs like that. That was certainly help. That would help. All right. Where are we at with time? We should? Probably we're there, all right. So the logical conclusion of this, you need to go buy a broco Italian on a lab. Do you need a budget of what what do you need for a Budget's got a dog. It's a fat like you're not you're not gonna take offense. But you got a dog that's a fashionable dog. Not fashionable, it's unknown. People want it for guaranty. And he has even sold dogs a handful of him more to handful of them to people who have no intention to hunting net dog. How can you do that? Well, it's easy. It's called for a eight week puppet. It just says did the same thing. No one knows not three You've got to realize went to pets and the family. Answer me this, how many labs? How many labs you think are in this country? Lots? How millions? How many people? For family? Just divide that by Okay, so let's just say probably I'm gonna say there's five million labs in in his country, or let's just say a million. That's a that's a safe numbers three million people. Let's say say five thousand. I'll bet you butt you only two to three percent of ever put a duck in her mouth. So it's the same way if if if that so same thing. This is a very esoteric dog. It costs lots of important, It costs a lot of the price is gonna come down and they're all gonna they're all gonna come down to the price. But right now, um, there's somebody who don't know shipp from putting I sell him for so you don't feel any kind of world thing where you gotta make sure they're gonna hunt that dog. No, I pushed them in in my in my registry, in my breeding contract. If they ever want to breathe this dog, then they have to do all the things I do. They have to do a nap to test, they have to have health test, hips, eyes, X rays, everything, And I'm like, okay, then you're just as new as I was twenty five years ago. But you're gonna do what I do. And if they do that, and the dogs gotta pass a hunting test, this dog got the ability to do it. And I'm fine with that. And here about what happened Matt. Recently, he bought a guy gave him a cow that for some reason was assumed to be infertile. Oh yes, yes, I did hear that. And then I don't know how it happened. Someone brought a bull over. And but this is my brother. Someone brought that could be mutilating this story with The basic gist is the guy gives him the cow that's supposed to be not viable, infertile. Somehow bull climes over. Turns out the cow is not in fact infertile has a calf. Matt decides to get out of the live stock business and takes his cow calf pair down to sell him at an auction. Gets in a little trouble with the brand inspector who wants to brandon papers but has no idea what he's talking about because the guy just gave it to him because he never had cows before. Why is up? He has to go to the guy that gave him the cow. The guy that gave him the cow is not happy because he has like a protected bloodline, right, like a name. He's got to defend, right, He's got a reputation, And here he gives one of his cows to someone who just guy goes and breathes it with some bull down the road. But he was told it was not viable. Well I know, but anyways, he had to go talk to He had to get himself getting messy. So I can see that getting messy. The long short of stories, he was impressed by beef prices. He's out of the stock business now, but he was in it pretty thick for a couple of days there. So at budget dog budget, uh, if you get really high powered field trial bread dogs they're gonna push field those the sire or the damn or both field trial champions. So you know it's a good smart and the mom and dad went to Harvard exactly cadillact the maserati. But you know, a good average hutting dog is gonna be a thousand bucks usually minimum thousand, fifteen hundred. I think the key thing to look for um when I was breeding readily through brown dog retrievers, when I had my kennel. My my advice to people if they couldn't afford it's like, that's fine, but if you buy one out of the paper for three or four hundred bucks, make sure it's got the health guarantees. A good act, a good breeder is gonna give you, you know, is gonna have all the certificates you need. They're they're free of all known good elbows, good eyes, all that stuff, and they will give you now it's right, and they will give you a certain figure that if there's any of those problems that show up congenitally, if over a certain time. I mean, you don't wait for hips to you know, show up with a twelve year old dog with bad hips and say I want a puppy exactly. But that's what you're really looking for. And to get a good, well bred dog with the traits you want, good health certificate, you're looking at a thousand bucks. I'm gonna ask you that a really tough question. Let's say you go down, like I said, my brother went to a lab rescue place right basically randomly selects a dog. If you had to put it in percentage points, what are the what are the odds he's gonna walk out of here? He just goes and there's ten dogs in there, he randomly selects a dog. Don't don't factor in health. Okay, we'll just make an assumption about what are the chance he's gonna come home with it with a hunting dog that will make him proud, versus he gets one whose mind, dad, are all the stuff you're top about. I think he's gotta good chance. I'm gonna say probably maybe seventy five that the dog wants to do the work, but he's gonna have to put the work into it to train it to do it so he doesn't embarrass embarrassing. That's the best. That's the pound puppy. They've got the instincts if it's a pure bred lab. They're all I mean, it's not a gradient, right, you know, they're not all good, and some of them are great. And to your point, you know, you you pull one out of the lab or the rescue and you get a really good one. That's because he was he has the drive in. The instincts may have been pretty well. So he's got a seventy five with the pound puppy what he got with a with a dog, he's got a got something I'm saying, with instinct that would actually exactly, he's got to train that in. Maybe maybe that drops to depending on if you're buying one from a lab rescue, it might drop. When said that saying, the guy told me years and years ago we talked about dogs, well, the best dog, best to the best, don't best to the best. You gotta you gotta say this dog's gotta fault. That dog's gotta fault. Yeah, but they're both great. Now they both got a serious fault and the same fault can repeat itself. There's an old saying. The best boxer, heavyweight, lightweight, middleweight backs are never stepped off a porch. His life, never stepped into the ring. He just didn't bother, So you get that dog like you guys got that That dog wasn't trained by any handlers, that wasn't trained any nothing, and that could have been one of the best dogs in the world. And through great dogs, you just never know, so you never know who's just right. I think, Yeah, but you gotta answer the second part. What are this dude's odds if he goes through the whole, jumps through the hoops, buys like a dog with all the paperwork, diplomas or the mom and dad better than the average? Yeah, but you're already better than average. You said that was instincts Okay, this is the last thing we're top I wanted to re ask the question. You got a guy, he's a he's has everything it takes as a beginner trainer. He's gonna going to the pound and get a dog, and he's got the time. He's got the time that is necessary to put into it. What are the odds he's gonna pull a good dog versus what I'm trying to get you to answer. You know what I'm trying to get the answer? Does it actually pay? Is it actually worth your time to look and be like? Who were the mom and dad all that garbage. Is it just like is it just random? Or do you really get something when you get that? Now I'm gonna maybe drop it to But you know the reality is, I think most of the labs have good instincts, but not all of them are gonna be hunters right out of the box. And you know, if you're it depends on their age. You know, the old dog new trick thing. I mean, you can train old dogs, but the best your best bet is to start with a young dog and training and put it in that puppy. Right, so one of it was old, one of the puppy. Don'tys go with the puppy? Yeah? I would, I would if I was going to train one. Yeah, if you got down to rescue a six year, six or eight year old lab because they're yeah probably because yeah, let me qualify those percentages. You're not really comfortable to answering that question. Was too much unknown such a classic scientist. It just depends, you know. I give you a little annote. My brother in law who owned stage, we just saw pictures of who was a or is a two thousand plus dollar puppy. I don't know exactly what he pays. I know that he's she just got read at six years old for the very first time, and he's expecting, you know, to make some dividends. His first lab that he trained very hard was a rescue pound dog, Bonnie. Amazing dog. I love that dog. He had no idea, They just grabbed her. He put the time in and it was an amazing lab. So there you go. He got both of them all right. But you could spend that kind of money and you know, for enough high power to lab and come out with nothing just oh it's late. But um there's also if you want to buy a dog. I think one of the best ways to do if you can do it, since your budget, your spend a thousand or two thousand dollars on a dog, go meet the parents of those dogs, spend some time with the d and then because if there's something you don't like about either of them dogs, you might get that in your puppy. So that but it's hard to do these days. These dogs get sold on it, you know, through the Internet. I have sold dogs from coast to coast, north to south. You deliver your dogs. Most of I shipped one to Grease. Yeah goal from uh from meeking Os Island and Greece. But I say the same thing about spouses for a long time. People ask me you advice, and my dude, go hang out with the parents, you know really, Oh yeah, you people say that, but you don't like your mother in law. You're I just can't picture. I can't picture if someone had went and said, like like like what I said to my wife, Oh, go hang out with Frank and Rosy and you'll find out what it's like to be married to Steve. I just don't see how you'd never get them. I gotta give you that. I think you gotta just find like be the idiosyncrasies. It's not the real person. But it's a good point. You and Frank not the same. We both like stuff real organized, not a lot of garbage like spent shotgun shells all over the floor and stuff like that. Ronnie thinks cup holders are little things that hold empty shots. No one is for non spent mixed, the con the consoles for un shot, the little door. There's our first spent shock on the shelves. All right, we gotta go. This is actually like a two part podcast, because we're gonna do part two later. Some other times. No, we're gonna do it real soon, and we're talking about why we're here, which is the real tall bird with the real good meat. We're gon we're gonna pick that up, and hopefully we're gonna bring in a another guy who shot him mounting of these tall good eat birds. Hopefully this is all gonna happen. I think it's gonna happen. By the meantime. Thanks for joining us. Uh tune in more. Also, this is media the podcast. You can always always always watch me eaither the TV show by getting yourself access to the Sportsman channel or go to meat eat We can never remember how that goes the vh X TV or TV dot vh X lawa minte, don't go anywhere. It's um, I really need to commit this to memory. One minute, my buddy set this thing up. It's not I'm sure it's just stay tuned here a minute. Me eater dot dot goes dot go. I'm not connecting. Something happened. I think, come on help me out man someone. Okay, if you guys aren't being helpful, I don't have a phone with We're not busting your balls about Okay, Nope, go to I'm gonna commit to some memory right now, think of this, TV comes last in life. Okay, with that thought, meat eater dot vh X dot TV. Meat eater dot vh X dot TV. You go there to streaming download episodes watched your hearts content. Um, there's a code you put in for a discount. Try and meet your podcast that might not be it. Um, all right, everybody, stay tuned. Ron loves you.