00:00:00 Speaker 1: All right, everybody, this is the Meat Eater Podcast. We're coming at you. I want to say we're coming at you live from Ketchum, but we're not. 00:00:08 Speaker 2: It's not live. We're coming at you. 00:00:09 Speaker 1: Dead from ketchum Idaho. And before I get into the main thing, Ketchum Idaho the way I always knew ketcham Iidaho. And this is my first time I've ever been in ketchum Iidaho. I'm here for a bad country hunters and anglers get together, and I always knew it, being like we're Hemingway, Ernest Hemingway, the writer who wrote perhaps the greatest fishing story of all time, The Old Man to see you guys read that. Yes, he shot himself to death here and right here in town, his graves here in town. And I always knew that it was funny. This book just came out called Hemingway's Guns, and it was always rumored that Hemingway shot himself with with a boss shotgun that he bought at Abercrombie and Fitch, which is totally funny because now Abercrombie and Fish sells shirt to say Abercrimey and Fitch on him. He used to be able to buy guns there, so he's full. He shot himself with the shotgun. And it turned out these guys to this book reads and they called it Hemingway's Guns. They did a bunch of research and they realized he shot himself with a twelve gage shotgun that was a W. C. 00:01:09 Speaker 2: Scott and Son. 00:01:11 Speaker 1: After he kills himself, apparently like someone in his family, brings his shotgun down to a welder here in town to have it destroyed. The guy smashes the stock up, cuts it in little pieces and goes to berries in the field. One of these writers goes to find and whoever this welder is. His kid still runs a welding shop as of a couple of years ago. The kid pulls out a match box showing him some parts they kept off this shotgun. 00:01:37 Speaker 2: The guy looks at it. 00:01:38 Speaker 1: He says, that's not a boss shotgun, you know, that's a Scott and Son shotgun. And he apparently this shotgun he like hundred ducks in Italy. Shot shooting competitions in Cuban went to a Safari and East Africa. 00:01:52 Speaker 2: Off the shotgun. Favorite shotgun got a weird deal right here and catch them. And Ryan Callahan, who's sitting right here. 00:01:58 Speaker 1: Told me that whenever he runs of alcohol and he doesn't have any money, he just goes and takes the offerings that are left having ways. 00:02:06 Speaker 3: It's right across the street. 00:02:09 Speaker 1: When I asked him about this, he said, I can walk over and get some alcohol for you right now. 00:02:12 Speaker 2: Doesn't anyways graves and yesterday is sure. 00:02:15 Speaker 1: Enough, we're standing there in town here. We're standing there and he tell me it's like, oh yeah, people always going to do his grave. We're standing there and two dudes come up. They're like, excuse me, sir, would you know what the cemetery is. I'm like, let me guess, you know, And sure enough, sure they're heading over to papa's Papa's tomb. 00:02:30 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? 00:02:31 Speaker 2: You just bad to steal? 00:02:33 Speaker 1: It is because when they put someone told me, like, normally you put plastic flowers at a grave. Someone told me that they just periodically come and take them on throwing the garbage. 00:02:42 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's only it's only okay if you're buying alcohol or guns. 00:02:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so, not plastic flowers. Now, something formal the media or podcast Rocky by First Light based right here and catch am Ida Home. It's an original hunting clothing brand. They make high performance hunting apparel. I wear it all the time. These guys pioneered Reno wool hunting clothing, like the first ones that take that fabric and technology and bring it into honting clothing. They make everything to get you covered for hunting, from your marino bass layers out to waterproof, breathable technical layers. Like I said, the good thing and you're gonna find us out in Minica is to these guys right here. 00:03:24 Speaker 2: The guys at first like. 00:03:25 Speaker 1: Actually hunting fish real hard all year round, and they test their stuff endlessly and it shows. And the weird thing is, if you ever want to calm and ask them a question, an actual dude will answer the phone, like a real live person will answer the phone and answer your questions. Or you can make it even more simple go to first light dot com check out their stuff. 00:03:42 Speaker 2: Fantastic materials. 00:03:46 Speaker 1: And The Mediator podcast is brought to you by the Media or TV show hosted by me Steve Vanella. I've got one of our producers sitting right here next to me, Jannis long Tong. 00:03:54 Speaker 2: But tell us we'll get to him in a minute. 00:03:56 Speaker 1: We hear new episodes on Sportsman Channel, which if you don't have it on your TA set, you really ought to get it. It's actual real reality TV, which is like the reality kind, the kind that they don't normally make. And the network Sportsman Channel is great because they trust us to make the show we want to make, and they give their talent. I don't know if it's okay to say talent when you're referring to yourself. They give your talent the freedom to do real things in a real way without having to dope it up into something that's embarrassing to watch. 00:04:23 Speaker 2: That's a note I made to myself, but it's totally true. 00:04:27 Speaker 1: If you don't get Sportsman Channel and you ought to, you can still find all the meat Eater. You can stand at Meeater dot VHX, dot TV. You can stream it, you can download it. You can use the code meat Eater podcast one word Me Eater podcast and get five bucks. 00:04:45 Speaker 2: Off on any volume. 00:04:46 Speaker 1: So we package these episodes what five per four or five episodes per package, so that gives you like two and a half hours of viewing pleasure. We got a ton of mond it. How many like how many packages that we have now. 00:05:05 Speaker 2: I want you to know it. 00:05:06 Speaker 1: For a hunting and fishing podcast, This one's really integrated because the person you're hearing talking right now is not only a woman, She's Korean, right American Korean American Helen Show the most integrated broadcast you're ever gonna hear about hunting. 00:05:23 Speaker 2: What else? What else do I want to cover? Yeah? 00:05:27 Speaker 1: Sports Fan Channel, First Light, Mediator podcast or I'm sorry Mediator dot VHX, dot TV hit Mediator podcast for your discount. What we're gonna be talking about? And like I said, I have two Ken Kruth and Ryan Callahan from First Light or here, Jannis but tell Us from the med Eater team is here, Helen Chow is here, and Helen Tell what you just did for the first time. 00:05:47 Speaker 5: Today fly fishing. For the first time. 00:05:49 Speaker 1: Helen Show went for fly fishing. It's as like today we watched an otherwise honest person get corrupted because Helen Show was up until today like a meat slayer. 00:06:01 Speaker 5: Yeah, pretty much. 00:06:02 Speaker 2: Helen fished in order like Helen went out to fish. 00:06:05 Speaker 1: She used to go out to fish in order to kill fish and eat them with a spinning round. You like to sur you like to serve fish. You like to fish, you want to you fish. She likes to party, she likes to party on boats. She likes to fish. She likes to fish on party boats. She used to go out and was a fish killer. And today she was corrupted right here and catch him and went on an outing that was meant to be to catch fish, to poke holes in fishes faces for fun and then let them go. So Helen became a fly fishing catch and release angler today. 00:06:45 Speaker 6: I don't know if you become one, if you go once, were you dabbled in it, it was the introduction was. 00:06:51 Speaker 1: She was lured to the dark side of catching release angling today right here and catch him. 00:06:55 Speaker 2: I was with her. I caught a fish and let him go. I caught he was. I caught him an accident, but I called him let him go. 00:07:02 Speaker 1: And that's one thing I want to talk about today is the thing that's for plex meal whole life. And I've said on both sides of defense is and I packed this room with fly fishermen, is what like I want to talk about why do something like what is it with fly fishing? Because we all the fly fishing is you know, technically right catch if I'm wrong. The real only different like to define fly fishing would be the fly the lure is delivered by the weight of the. 00:07:25 Speaker 2: Line, right, yep. 00:07:27 Speaker 1: And on spin fishing, the lure is delivered by its own weight when you cast. Yeah, but there's massive amounts of cultural bs. There's like massive, like massive amounts of like cultural and ethical stuff has been laid over. 00:07:42 Speaker 2: What's the difference between spin fishing and fly fishing. 00:07:44 Speaker 4: Yes, and that's something we covered today. Like I look at fly fishing as a means to catch fish. 00:07:50 Speaker 2: This is Ryan Callahan talking. 00:07:51 Speaker 4: That's it, right, And there is just like you said, there are massive amounts of opinion and chunks of like nostalgia heaped upon how you fly fish. But for me, it is a means to catch fish. 00:08:11 Speaker 2: The fish you ever caught on a fly rod? 00:08:13 Speaker 4: No, No, not at all. 00:08:15 Speaker 2: What was the first fish you caught? 00:08:16 Speaker 4: M I am. I would think it's a rainbow. 00:08:21 Speaker 2: Because you grew up Montanna. Yep, Yeah, you caught them on what a worm? 00:08:27 Speaker 3: Man? 00:08:27 Speaker 4: You know? We used to My mom used to have us round up grasshoppers out of the garden. We'd take a bobber a hook and float it down. Prior Creek on the Crow Indian Reservation outside of Billings Yep, and catch a lot of. 00:08:43 Speaker 1: That's Prior Creek, like the Prior Mountains. It has some wild horses in it. 00:08:45 Speaker 4: D Yep, exactly, yep. 00:08:47 Speaker 2: And you guys catch the would you thump them in the head or would you We would keep. 00:08:51 Speaker 4: Quite a few fish. 00:08:51 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:08:53 Speaker 1: So right, I'm gonna get real technical about fly fish. Remember Ryan was sharing me today. We're talking about all the dues and don'ts of fly fish, all the ethics of fly fish. And he was saying that around here, guys are guys like we'll fish a dry fly. They will not want to strip a wooly bugger, which is apparently not how one fly fishes, but they will run a nymph break, which is basically bobber fishing with a fly route. I call a what do you strike indicator? This is a fish. 00:09:24 Speaker 2: You say, what do you guys bobber fishing? Well, no, it's a strike indicator. 00:09:27 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what it is with my four year you know, my four year old uses it to indicate when he has a strike. 00:09:33 Speaker 2: Yes, but we'll say it's a bobber. 00:09:36 Speaker 3: You know, the funniest thing about that too, is that they had all these different kinds of Now you're here, you're here in Kent. Is it that all these different kinds of bobbers for years? Right, they had these you know, fuzzy things, this and that, and now guys just have thrown the towel in. They use bobbers, real spring loaded bobber. Well, it's a little bit lighter, so Castle, But it's. 00:09:56 Speaker 4: Like you're referring to a thing. 00:10:00 Speaker 3: Because it's the thing when it comes fishing. Yes, no, I didn't use one, but I will use one. Heck, I'm a fit. I like to catch fish. Man, I'm not. I use indicators all the time. But you just got back from doing today steelhead fishing. I was up on the Klimat and it was exceptionally good. 00:10:22 Speaker 1: Explain the whole thing like you're you had a seven year dry spell or something like that. 00:10:25 Speaker 3: Oh, I mean I have been. You know, we kind of go regardless. It's a family reunion kind of deal. So the fishing is a secondary program, so we just kind of show up and if the fish are in, the fish you're in. Traditionally, the fish are not in this year. 00:10:40 Speaker 1: Because the time of year, just because like the rivers have because those rivers have been so degraded, and the steelhead runs are not what they used to be. 00:10:46 Speaker 3: In all that, all of the above, but you know, with steelhead fishing, it's one of those things where you're either you know and you quickly find this out, is that you arrive and everybody there is like packing up, saying you should have been here last week. Yeah, it's the classic example. But this time, I was there last week and you know this was traditionally, You're there this week. It was the week and it was off the chart. It was like as good a fishing as even the old timers there fishing there for forty years said it was the best fishing they had for forty years. 00:11:17 Speaker 1: Now, I want to explain something real quick. So steelhead like, there's a term anagamous, right, So anagamous means that a fish lives in the ocean, or in the case of the Great Lakes, lives in a lake and runs up the river to spawn. And then the opposite of anagamous catadronists, where a fish like a American eels catagransts, lives in the river and goes out to the ocean to spawn. But steel had a river run or like sea run rainbows. It's a rainbow trout that you know he's hatched, he's born, goes through his larval stage or whatever is his his youth in the river, goes back out of the ocean, turns into a big fatty, comes back out the river. Guy like Kenton goes down there and catches one, and it's not too big. And sometimes it's hard to tell if you caught a rainbow or a steelhead. 00:12:03 Speaker 3: Certainly on the or on the younger fish. You know, a young steelhead will be you know, two pounds and eighteen inches, which you know for a rainbow, it's a great fish. 00:12:13 Speaker 1: A giant fish and steelhead. 00:12:15 Speaker 3: You know, they can get up to be huge. I mean, you know, it's not uncommon for god to catch a ten pound fish. 00:12:20 Speaker 2: Was the biggest one you guys got. 00:12:22 Speaker 4: Mmm. 00:12:22 Speaker 3: I caught a nine pound, probably eight and a half nine pounder on a drive fly, which was kinda. 00:12:27 Speaker 1: And there's no doubt that that fish had been out in the ocean for couple of years at that point. 00:12:33 Speaker 3: I mean, he's just a full on, balls out steelhead, full on and we were only fifteen miles off the coast. 00:12:39 Speaker 2: Was he clipped? Was he a hattery fish? 00:12:40 Speaker 3: No? 00:12:41 Speaker 1: Wild? 00:12:41 Speaker 2: Wild born fish? 00:12:42 Speaker 4: Wild? 00:12:42 Speaker 3: And in fact all the fish I caught pretty much were wild. 00:12:46 Speaker 1: You probably can't even thump those fish, right, you can't keep them. 00:12:50 Speaker 2: So that's legally enforced catching release exactly. 00:12:53 Speaker 3: And then if you have that's and so one guy on the trip caught a caught one with a clip out of post flint fin, and we smoked it and ate it and it was fantastic. 00:13:03 Speaker 2: What is it really? Yeah, so it's got a clip fin. 00:13:06 Speaker 1: If it's a hattery fish, you can keep it correct and then you got stumped it yep. 00:13:10 Speaker 3: Brought it in and it was probably a seven or eight pound fish, filate it and then smoked it all day the next day in the smoker. 00:13:16 Speaker 1: You know, like ad a pose fin means it just means extra fin, like a little fin on their back. It's not clear what function it serves. Probably sort of something they used to cut everybody's tonsils out. They didn't think to function, So ada post means extra. My brother Danny has an added post nipple. He's got a he's got a third nipple. 00:13:34 Speaker 8: Es they do. 00:13:38 Speaker 3: All men's nipples are out of post. 00:13:40 Speaker 1: Well, I know, but it's extra ada post. It's like it's like the extra you know. 00:13:44 Speaker 4: So oddly enough, he didn't show that you didn't bring. 00:13:48 Speaker 1: That fish with them with the Malaski. So he's got aniple snipples and fin like when you take a fish if you want to know that he's a hattery fish. They just snipped that little fin off. It's kind of like it sits between the dorsal fin and the caudal fin, which is the tailor's like this little thing. 00:14:05 Speaker 3: On there and it's I don't know, floppy it does. 00:14:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. 00:14:09 Speaker 2: It might be some kind of vestigial thing like it used to do. 00:14:12 Speaker 3: Something that doesn't do now, agreed. 00:14:14 Speaker 1: So if you want to mark a hashy fish, just snipped that thing. So what Canton here's saying is that a wild fish. It was like hashed and reared in the wild. His hands off and you know the way around. If you could have killed one of those fish, probably wouldn't killed it, though. 00:14:31 Speaker 3: I would have kept one or two. I was already had the smoker. I mean, I was kind of fired up, and you know, I might as well filled it was kind of small smoker. I was the goal was to fill the smoker up. You know, if you're going to run it, you might as well have the smoker. 00:14:45 Speaker 1: One thing, I kind of like today we fished this morning when Helen got corrupted, We're fishing for cutthroats. 00:14:52 Speaker 2: I have kind of honestly quit killing cutthroats. 00:14:55 Speaker 4: Yeah, I understand that in. 00:14:57 Speaker 1: Rivers like like wild cuffs, because cutthroats as species, there's certain species in this country that are just sort of you know, they have highs and lows, but the just the general atmosphere, they're generally going downhill, you know what I mean, mule deer. It's like, you know what, like like people are predicting in some ways, you can predict the end of Muldier like they're sensitive and sure you'd be like, oh, yeah, the golf course is always Muldery on the golf course. But in general, like Muldier are things will look great for Muldier right now. Number of things like drought, habitat loss or you know a lot of issues we could correct if we felt like it, If we had the energy and the money and we didn't care so much about being inconvenience, we. 00:15:37 Speaker 2: Could fix the situation. 00:15:38 Speaker 1: Cutthroats on Earth thing you're just like generally seem to be going as even talk of putting cut some strains and cuts on the danger species list. So I like to go out and get them. And this guy like fits hits the conundrum of what I'm talking about when I want to talk about this on a podcast. Is I like to go out and get them. Okay, I don't want to kill them because I'm like, yea, you know, I just feel the pain. 00:16:02 Speaker 2: Of the cut throats. 00:16:02 Speaker 1: So when I hold a cut through, I feel the pain of the species, right, and I know that the individual, like the essence of the species isn't wrapped up in that little individual fish in my hand, But he sort of stands for something that's in decline. So I see him and I want to let him go. But what is it that made me want to poke a hole in his face? And realment? You know, because the dirty secret about catching realist stuff? 00:16:24 Speaker 2: Is there some mortality? 00:16:26 Speaker 4: Yes, there absolutely is. 00:16:28 Speaker 1: They don't like it depends on water temp. It can be high as fifteen percent. What have you ever heard? 00:16:33 Speaker 4: Yeah about there fifteen to twenty. 00:16:35 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was tell me, so tell me the story you telling me the other day about as a guide how many fish you guys land today. 00:16:41 Speaker 8: Well, there came a point when well into my guiding career when I would start to. 00:16:46 Speaker 2: Tell where you like, tell where you were guiding. 00:16:48 Speaker 4: This is the weird deal. 00:16:49 Speaker 1: The guy is talking right now. The guy that's talking right now, Yiannis we tell Us works on Meat Eater and the show knew my Are you still sick of hearing this story? Jannis knew Joannis knew my wife in high school. Okay, so my wife when we met. My wife's like, the only person I ever knew who liked to hunt like you guys do. Is this guy Yannis Poutelus is just in when you're out together, like they're paying attention to what you're talking about, just like you know, no, Joe, but you saw this the one day I'm looking at this magazine, Western Hunter magazine, which is of my favorite hunting magazines, and I'm looking at Western Hunter and there's a picture of kind of that iconic image of a dude with a par of binoculars up in the mountains, and it says like Yiannis Boutellis glasses the Colorado high Country. And I right away call my wife at work. I'm like Who's that dude? You ways talking about Yannis something or another that likes to hunt. She's like, yannest Poutlus. I'm like, I'm looking at that dude. He's in the magazine right here in my lap. So we connect through I think, through my wife's Facebook, and it turns out that Jannis is living up Jannis's wife is a botanist and they're spending some time up in Fairbanks, and so we're going to up to do a dull sheep hunt for the show, and we hired Janis to carry a backpack. Everybody fell in love with them. And at the time, you were guiding. 00:18:02 Speaker 4: The easy thing to do. 00:18:04 Speaker 2: Tommy is like. 00:18:05 Speaker 1: Guide know from Colorado, guide Olk in Arizona, doing some coups your stuff down to Mexico. 00:18:10 Speaker 2: He started working with us in the bench. 00:18:12 Speaker 1: We weued him away from all that, but he was a trout guide for a long time and he's now going to relate like an observation he had about how catch re these fly fishermen can't quite have as bright as a halo. 00:18:26 Speaker 2: Hanging over their head as they might like spin it. 00:18:30 Speaker 8: Yes, yes, because I felt like with seasoned, good anglers that were competent and knew what they were doing when the timing was right, when the fishing was hot. 00:18:42 Speaker 9: You know. 00:18:42 Speaker 4: Mostly it was for us the month of July. 00:18:44 Speaker 8: This is central Colorado, the Eagle River, the Colorado River there winning Fork down outside of Aspen, we could catch forty to sixty fish sometimes per angler in an eight hour float. You know, when the fish is hot, you know your fish is hitting the dry every you know, a couple of minutes, so you can rack up the numbers. I never did it, but we definitely had guys that would run the clicker. Really they really wanted to. They were proud of their numbers, you know, so they would sit there and click fish anyways. 00:19:14 Speaker 2: Like a golf clicker or does orbs make a click just I don't know. 00:19:20 Speaker 1: Fish. 00:19:23 Speaker 8: But when you get into those kind of numbers and then you start talking about ten percent mortality rate, you know, that's a lot of fish that die every day. 00:19:29 Speaker 1: It's more than some dude down there with some snelled hooks and a box of crawlers. 00:19:33 Speaker 8: Well, as long as he is abiding by the rules. In most places, it's too trout a day, you know. So if he catches his two and leaves they only killed two, and he probably he probably didn't poke too many others, you know, where we would poke fifty and you know for losing you know, five to ten of those fish, a lot of dead fish. 00:19:52 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, whenever he goes by, that dude down the bank like something do at the bank, four or five kids up and down the bank and diapers and he's out there drowning crawlers. 00:19:59 Speaker 4: Like I did a walking back the stringer that guy. 00:20:05 Speaker 1: I helped one stringers with the clicker wire class. 00:20:10 Speaker 8: I helped the Division Widlife do a dead fish count once on the Eagle and we floated down. We didn't really float, we like kind of crept skidded down the Eagle River. Super low water, just going over rocks the whole way, warm water temperatures. I think we picked up twenty four dead fish. You can just see him on the bottom of the river, you know. 00:20:28 Speaker 1: White bellies up, red spots on their lip when you look at him just counting them. 00:20:33 Speaker 8: No, we were taking them, you know, I want to say it's seventeen out of those fish. You could see the handprint on them from where they were probably held up for a picture. And you know, like you were telling Jimmy today, well, your hands before you touch the trout, and so many people don't know how to probably handle a fish, and so then that metality ray goes even higher. 00:20:52 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking about my little boy. 00:20:54 Speaker 1: I wanted him to let a cot go, and so I was telling, you know, get your hands wept for you slipped on your belly. I know, like I tell you that, I remember the exact instant. The instance I ever in my life is an instance or instant. I think I I feel like I already screwed that up. I think I know the exact instance in my life when I heard the term catchule these fishing, like my old man, I'm not even going to get into why this was okay, but in my old man's eyes, like like bass season began on whatever. 00:21:25 Speaker 7: Day, okay in Michigan. 00:21:27 Speaker 1: Let's say it was June one, and his so we all thought it began on mid that midnight rather than look at it began on June one. We talked about like beginning like the thirty first at midnight, and he thought, well, as long as it's starting up at midnight, which was tending the next day. We were allowed to fish that day because we couldn't be up at midnight we had to go to bed. So we were allowed to fish and keep bass, but we wouldn't We couldn't cut him until the next day when it was well into season. So we had a live well. I grew up in a lake and we had doc and we had a live well that my dad made out of You know those you when you had a grocery store and they have those bread racks, like the big rolling racks, the plastic perforated shells, they have all the loads of bread on them. He just took a bunch of those and zip tied them together into a live well and put styrofoam around it. And we could fish bass all day and put bass into the live well, and then season would start, so the next day we'd gel o fish I live flame. 00:22:23 Speaker 2: I'm not telling you to do things. 00:22:25 Speaker 1: I was trying to get and I was so I was so little that I was still getting My parents are still giving me baths. Okay, I remember that because I caught a big, huge bass two docks down on Gary's dock and hauled that thing home and was trying to get it into the live well and dropped it, and I was devastated. And I was so young that my parents would give me baths. So remember that night I was getting a bath. My mom was giving me a bath, and I was still so distraught about the bass I lost that my old man came in and told me some people fish just to let him go as a way to try to make me feel better. And I later got into it. I got into like and steal it and like, I don't mean this is gonna bring down the steel that if you like to catch canon, because in the Great Lakes we have a steelhead, like the Great Eggs are like an aquarium where he turns, like all the fish that were in there are kind of like either not there or they're hurting. But then we have great it's a great fishery of imported fish. 00:23:24 Speaker 2: So we have great. 00:23:25 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have all like almost all the Pacific salmon. They tried to get Atlantics going. We have pinks, Coho, Shanook, we got lake run browns like that. 00:23:35 Speaker 2: There's tons of fish steelhead and we. 00:23:38 Speaker 1: Used to count them and like for us, I remember the best year I ever had my third year of college. I think I landed forty four steelhead and I probably thumped two of them. 00:23:47 Speaker 2: I thump one of them when I. 00:23:48 Speaker 1: Was dating this girl from Sarajevo because I wanted to cook one for and I thump another one has some other time. And we mostly just caught them just to count them, you know, And you were bad ass. If you could catch hundreds, you ahead and let them go. And I would get where I look down on the dudes doing it, and then I'm gonna quit talking mostly after this. But so we got so into fly fishing for steelhead, and then the steel that wasn't always good. So then we got way interested in going to Mexico and fish for bonefish. So then my brother and I went down to Mexico to catch and release bonefish for a month and we had fish bonefish all day and let them go, and then in the evening we'd catch other fish to eat. And I would, in my day look more forward to going and trying to catch little snappers and grunts and stuff out of the channels in order to eat, because we just had a bag of rice, a bag of dried rice, a bag of dried beans, water, and we ate fish or we ate comic. So here we are like, oh, we're not going to kill the bonefish because some reason I can't explain. But we'll kill all these other fish. We don't even know what the hell they are. They're just fish, like, no idea what this is? Like, Oh it looks like a edible fish. We eat them and I eventually I just got dizzy from all the like the. 00:25:00 Speaker 2: What you know? 00:25:00 Speaker 1: The why? 00:25:01 Speaker 4: Why is this better than yes? And then I know something, why is this we're saving? 00:25:05 Speaker 1: I know some of the guys fish catch release and they're like, well, I'm not going to kill these trow I don't want to damage fishery, you know. Damn Well, when they get done, they go to some restaurant order fish. I don't know where it came from. It's like, what about that fishery? Yeah, what's that fishery doing? 00:25:18 Speaker 4: And we talked about this on the hunting side of things all the time. 00:25:20 Speaker 1: You know. 00:25:21 Speaker 4: It's like I was hiking with the friend of mine's niece, uh, taking her mushroom hunting. The spring came across an elk calf and you ate it. 00:25:32 Speaker 3: I bought it. 00:25:33 Speaker 4: I landed it fairly, no, and she said, well, where's the mall? But well, she's probably up in this meadow feeding. We were kind of on the fringe of this big meadow and she's, well, what's she would like, stay here and help the calf. And I'm like, well, if the bear comes by. He came by it, honestly, and she's like, whoa, we should save it from the bear. It's like, well, what makes the very or less valuable than that health calf? You know, It's like and why is that up to us to decide that? 00:26:05 Speaker 7: Yeah? 00:26:05 Speaker 2: Exactly? 00:26:07 Speaker 4: The whole steelhead steelhead fly fishing is a great topic because that's like to our very first conversation that we made where it's like, this is how you fly fish. But you look across the river at the guy with the you know, single pin rod and he's running three hundred yards of mono down the river on a slip bobber and he's crushing fish. You're like, I bet I can make this fly rod do that, yeah, and catch more fish. And you know a lot of times I call it like playing with house money, right, Like I'll go out and I will nimp and run the bead, right. And that's very controversial in fly fishing. We've talked about that when we were up in BC. 00:26:51 Speaker 1: Honestly, iad nymph. 00:26:53 Speaker 4: No, you run a bead like you go to look like an egg. 00:26:58 Speaker 2: Yeah that's controversial. Yeah it's not honest. 00:27:01 Speaker 4: It looks like it doesn't have an egg, or it doesn't have a hook on it. Nobody tied it. It's artificial. You take a toothpick, you jam it so it sits above your hook. 00:27:11 Speaker 1: So it's basically running a flasher. I don't really know about it now. I remember you guys talk about this when we were hunting a BC. 00:27:17 Speaker 8: Yeah, it's no different than what the guys back in Michigan do with running like a sack of eggs with like a hook a couple of inches. 00:27:25 Speaker 2: Like a stinger hook. 00:27:25 Speaker 4: Yeah, same thing. 00:27:26 Speaker 1: So you're saying that it's controversial in in I don't want to say elite in like what's the best term for like extreme, like the pure like okay, from the purest fly fishing perspective. 00:27:39 Speaker 4: I don't know it's. 00:27:40 Speaker 1: Controversial to. 00:27:42 Speaker 3: A traditionalist traditionalist. 00:27:45 Speaker 2: Yeah, traditionalist won't run a beat. 00:27:47 Speaker 3: I mean a true A lot of these traditionalists don't won't even they're just all about dry fly, like even even if you're even nymphs. 00:27:55 Speaker 2: They don't want to catch a fish on the wet fly. 00:27:56 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just kind of it's it's you know, look down upon. 00:28:00 Speaker 4: But you can swing a wet flag. 00:28:02 Speaker 8: One of the best arguments I ever heard, and it's one of the oldest arguments out there was the late Great Lee. 00:28:08 Speaker 4: Wolf who famous fishing run exactly. 00:28:11 Speaker 8: And well, and he tied up the Royal Wolf, which is still a fish catching machine. 00:28:16 Speaker 1: But it doesn't it doesn't replicate anything. 00:28:19 Speaker 4: No, it's. 00:28:21 Speaker 2: A map spinner. 00:28:22 Speaker 4: Yes, let me finish my story. 00:28:25 Speaker 8: His deal was why he wasn't into fishing because I think during his fishing career five fishermen started to basically fish below the surface and then you started using sinking tip lines and adding weight and whatnot. 00:28:38 Speaker 2: And he was when this was like what. 00:28:42 Speaker 8: I'd have to guess, it'd be fifties, sixties substantiated moving on. But he felt like by by doing that, you weren't given like the fish just a day off, a time to reprieve. 00:28:58 Speaker 4: Like he felt like you should catch them when. 00:29:01 Speaker 1: They want to eat on the surface. It's like you give him a break. Here's the thing though, like I'm gonna try, I'm gonna try to make a parallel. 00:29:14 Speaker 2: I'n warn you, right, now it's not gonna work. 00:29:17 Speaker 1: Okay. People will say, oh I hunt wow, And I like, I like to hunt wild pigs. Okay, so I'm guilty this because I hate If I could wave a magic wand and make wild pigs be gone, I kind of I'd be very tempted to wave the magic wand because of the because of the damage that wild pigs do. I mean they heard ground nesting birds. They cause a lot of, you know, economic trouble for people, a lot of ecological trouble. So if I could, if somebody, if God came down from the skies and. 00:29:43 Speaker 2: Says like, here's a stick. If you wave this stick, I. 00:29:44 Speaker 1: Will eliminate the wild pick from North America, I would carry that stick around seriously consider waving it as a guy who likes the hut wild pigs. 00:29:52 Speaker 2: But people are. 00:29:53 Speaker 1: Like, oh, I we need to hunt wild pigs because they're over populated. Okay, So if that's the case, why they happy when they can't find a wild pick? But they get bummed. They're like, it was a terrible day we couldn't find a pick. But shouldn't you be glad because this isn't the goal that there aren't or not any around. So when I'm out wild picking on it, I'm always like hoping to run into a bunch, but it's supposed to be like, well, I kind of should be hoping to not to, right because I want them not be here. So if a guy really wants to have something be super difficult, so you're gonna you're gonna use something that you know it doesn't work well. You're only gonna use dry flies. But then you're happy when it works well. So you're happy if you get a forty fish day, So what is it? Is it then not challenging? And then doesn't it cease to be what you wanted it to be, which is a challenging form of fishing. 00:30:37 Speaker 2: It just worked really great. You caught forty fish. 00:30:39 Speaker 1: You outfished the dude throwing map spinners, You outfish the dude throwing worms. So now you should throw it away and start fishing worms because your dry fly works better than that, and you want it to be challenging. 00:30:50 Speaker 8: Answer that, well, there, but you know the time that you get that day, you fish all year for a couple of days like that. 00:31:00 Speaker 4: It's like the gimme, you know, the gimme hunting when you're like, oh, walk ten feet from the trailerhead and there he was. 00:31:07 Speaker 2: You're not gonna not shoot. 00:31:08 Speaker 3: You don't go, you gotta shoot. 00:31:10 Speaker 4: That was too easy. I didn't like that, you go. I just spent twelve years, you know, swinging a fly waiting for this day. Just spent twelve years hiking up those mountains, and I'm definitely gonna take this. Gimme. 00:31:24 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:31:24 Speaker 8: And I lived on a great drive fly fishing creek, gor Creek Inville, Colorado for a year and in our backyard door. 00:31:31 Speaker 2: Creek, Gore Creek. Never heard of that one. 00:31:34 Speaker 4: Exactly where is it? 00:31:35 Speaker 8: And how great great on good golden medal and after Lord Gore who just went through those mountains? 00:31:41 Speaker 1: And oh he hired Jim Bridger is a guy exactly. Jim Bridger got so sick of that guy shooting everything. Jim bridgerd quit him. 00:31:49 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:31:50 Speaker 1: He killed grizzlies in places they're on't grizzlies within five hundred miles there. Now, he killed grizzly out by Glen Dive, Montana. 00:31:56 Speaker 4: Yeah, you out of that country. 00:32:00 Speaker 1: This dude had blood on his hands. He killed like he's like he had a little tally talking about a golf clicker. He's like two thousand bison, twelve hundred day. Yeah, Bridger got sick of him anyways, Gore Creek, Gore, Krag, your buddy Gore. Yeah, so I overread after It's like an incandescent light bulb burning ex there. 00:32:20 Speaker 8: And we noticed he had a great fishing hole, right and every day we'd just be in there pounding them, you know, they'd be in there rising, and we'd been there just getting after as much as we could. And eventually it was like, you know what, let's just sit here and have it beer and watch these fish eat like it's just as enjoyable. We don't need to catch these fish again. It's you know, it's still your same cutthroat buddy sitting in the same hole. And so you don't always have to have those forty fish days, even though the opportunity is there. You can catch a couple, maybe a dozen, and then just sit on the bank and enjoy yourself. 00:32:51 Speaker 2: We let's talk to Ken. He just had a forty fish day. How many steelhead did you catch? 00:32:54 Speaker 4: A lot? 00:32:55 Speaker 2: One hundred? 00:32:56 Speaker 7: Yeah, probably how many? 00:32:57 Speaker 1: You think you're dead right now, you know, exhaustion and then take thousands of pictures of Jimmy Houston, the man. 00:33:05 Speaker 3: Flop him of no, pretty gentle. 00:33:08 Speaker 1: How many days he's trying to He's trying to stun them. 00:33:11 Speaker 3: The whole with a nine weight too, So I could definitely get pretty aggressive once they got close. Like it wasn't like you know, some guys will go steal head fishing with a five weight, you know, and then that's when you really. 00:33:22 Speaker 1: That fish is dog tired by the dog. 00:33:24 Speaker 3: Tired because you know, you flip fish with the you know, five weight would say five x or four x. You have no way even when it gets close, think and keep running on. 00:33:32 Speaker 1: You know. 00:33:33 Speaker 3: I was on a nine went with two x, so even a bigger fish, if it got to the shallow water, I'd kind of Jimmy Houston, it close, get it loose, and get it out. But I have no idea, you know. The whole time we were there, we saw one fish floating down river upside down. It was still breathing. We turned it over. It had the out of postcun We grabbed it and that was one of the ones that we smoked. How many did you catch all together as a team, Like, out of the four of us, we probably caught I don't know. One hundred, two hundred fish. 00:34:00 Speaker 4: And how many day days was that? 00:34:02 Speaker 10: Five? 00:34:02 Speaker 3: Five days of fish, five days of fishing. Probably more than that. You know some guys, some guys fish more than others. 00:34:09 Speaker 4: That's awesome. You uh, you got you. You kind of got the the white whale too, you got. 00:34:15 Speaker 7: The everywhere I'm at, Hey, Dan, I. 00:34:19 Speaker 1: Just called my brother who's a fishing He's like, he works with fish. Can you take a picture? Can you tell me right now? We're recording something right now. So you're you're you're not live, but you're close to it. Why when you why do fish die when you if you overplay a fish? Just real quick? Is it like something do with lactic acid build up? 00:34:49 Speaker 10: Yeah, I'm guessing lack the gas it build up and probably oxygen that in the in the muscles. 00:34:56 Speaker 1: What have you ever heard any ideas about how many what percentage of steal head die after people catch him and let him go? 00:35:04 Speaker 10: Direct distrust studied on it and it's but it varies by uh, water temperature and fish sty versus fly and you know a number of them. 00:35:17 Speaker 1: So if I'm sitting with a guy who just caught a hundred steelhead, what do you think, how many do you think he just killed? 00:35:23 Speaker 10: Off the top of my head, Yeah, i'd say if. 00:35:29 Speaker 1: Thirty, whoa blood on your hands, I'm gonna let you go. I'll talk to that. That's I want to check it out. This dude's a fish biologist. He's an ichthyo so he does like ichthyology, but he does aquatic invertebrates at a for a university. He's full on PhD. Great school of minds kind of guy. 00:35:51 Speaker 4: Right, So you're saying he knows what he's talking about. 00:35:55 Speaker 1: He knows a lot about fish, but he likes to catch steehead let him go. 00:35:59 Speaker 4: Mm hmmm. Who knows what? 00:36:06 Speaker 2: Can like? 00:36:06 Speaker 1: Sell smoke? Steal it on a bag truck next to the taco stage. 00:36:10 Speaker 3: I got plenty of bigger smoker. I could have got fired up. 00:36:15 Speaker 2: Now, Oh no, Helen, let me okay. As someone who's like, how many years you been. 00:36:21 Speaker 5: Fishing, maybe like seven eight seven night? 00:36:26 Speaker 1: What did you like? 00:36:27 Speaker 10: So? 00:36:28 Speaker 1: What was your feeling? Let's say you had cost some fish day and let them go. 00:36:31 Speaker 7: Would you have. 00:36:32 Speaker 2: Felt Yeah, let's say you caught a whole bunch and. 00:36:35 Speaker 7: Let him go. 00:36:35 Speaker 1: Would you felt bombed or would you felt like no, this was just its own experience. It really had nothing to do with It had nothing to do with catching fish to eat. It was just its own thing. We're enjoying a certain place, doing a certain thing that people have been doing it for a long time. I'm putting words of your mouth, but like, what was your like? How did you look? 00:36:51 Speaker 5: I don't know. 00:36:52 Speaker 6: I think if I had hooked it, if I had gotten it and it died, I would have probably felt a little bad. Yeah, I mean for my entertainment that I'm going to go and fish, I don't know. But if I had released it, I think I wouldn't. I feel like it's a separate experience. Like fly fishing is so far and different than fishing for meat. 00:37:13 Speaker 1: To me, it's like why is it? 00:37:15 Speaker 5: I don't know. 00:37:16 Speaker 6: Like when I go fishing in New York, it's like I'm on a mission, you know. I want to go out, I want to have a good time, but ultimately I want to come home to fill my freezer. 00:37:25 Speaker 7: Yeah. 00:37:26 Speaker 1: I went fishing with Helen and her boyfriend one time, and they come out there with one condiments for eating raw fish, And they come out there with a wire that when when they kill a fish, they cut the fish's tail off and run the wire through the fish's spine, which does the fish well, if you ever been to a slaughterhouse and watch them slaughter cattle, they hit the cattle the captive bolt gun, then they cut its throat and then they electrocute it to relax as flesh. 00:37:52 Speaker 2: And when you run that wire through that. 00:37:56 Speaker 1: Fish's spine, he relaxes in a way that all the rocks in the world banged against his head are not going to do. 00:38:02 Speaker 8: What and. 00:38:05 Speaker 6: Wow, it's a Japanese process called I Got. 00:38:11 Speaker 7: It's like. 00:38:13 Speaker 1: Through a fish's backbone, insert in his tail, and that fish just melts. He's like, I give up. 00:38:21 Speaker 5: You can really taste the difference though, I'll. 00:38:23 Speaker 1: Tell you when I used to ice trap snap turtles, that is amazing. 00:38:26 Speaker 2: Ice trapped stamp turtles and sell them, and you'd cut the head off the. 00:38:29 Speaker 4: Turn you're snapping turtles. 00:38:30 Speaker 1: This I'm bringing this full circle. I bringing his back around a joke because hurry up, I want to get back. I'm detracted. But anyways, this is gonna enhance what Helen's going to talk more about. Is you chop a turtle's head off. You grab grabbed the channel lock pried his head, pull the head out, cut off of the axe, hang them up by the tail, and you'd have to wait six seven hours sometime before you could clean that turtle because she was clenched up and clawn right. I was down in Guyana hunting with amer Indians, so it's like you know, here we'll say like Native American Indians, South America's Amorendians were hunted with Amerindians. They caught a big river turtle. First thing they did was run. They just whittled a big long stick, ran it through that thing's backbone, and that thing was ready to eat and the meat was super tender. It wasn't flexed, and they cooked that turtle right in his own shell. And they did the same thing. And that's kind of like I was like, wow, that's crazy. But then the next time I saw that have was when you guys were doing that to Poorgy's. 00:39:32 Speaker 6: They put him in like an ice like a saltwater ice bath. 00:39:34 Speaker 2: But they do after you, after you destroy their spinal. 00:39:38 Speaker 6: Column and spike their brains, spiked their head like you take like a like a gaff and you know, basically spike it in its head, which it stunts it. 00:39:48 Speaker 1: Then you then you wi. Yeah, what's what's the discipline called? 00:39:52 Speaker 4: And how many steps J I M. 00:39:56 Speaker 5: I think it's like a three step process. John would be better. 00:40:01 Speaker 6: Spiked the head first, and then you cut the like towards the tail, but not not the end. It's like you have a little meat left and you kind of just fold it over and then you stick a like a like a shark wire or something. 00:40:16 Speaker 1: It cashed. 00:40:18 Speaker 5: After you do that, you basically run all the way to its head. 00:40:21 Speaker 4: I will catch a schnook at some point off that and yes, I will. 00:40:25 Speaker 5: Do this, and then you put it in an ice bat. 00:40:27 Speaker 4: I have to find some things to practice on. 00:40:30 Speaker 6: They did a chef blind test blind taste tests for this, right, and I could taste it. So we went out once and we had zip ties and we it was like it was like a science experiment we had like this one was just like the Montalk way where they just you know, take a like a bat and just like hit it in its head ice So we did it that way, then we did it you know way, then we did it like you know, all these different ways, and then we actually it wasn't even the same day. It was like twenty four hours or forty eight hours afterwards, and then the chef's you know, we put it onto plates and and they actually picked the ekj Ma one, which was incredible. 00:41:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, that day we did that was funny. 00:41:05 Speaker 1: It's like a lot of times you'll see a bunch of sports, you know, on a guideboat, and you'll see where they're flaying the fish and you hear them all going like, oh no you go with Like the people are like, oh, you go ahead and take them. No, no, if you want them. 00:41:16 Speaker 2: You want to take them. 00:41:17 Speaker 1: You're like, dude, I guarantee you that in one year, all that fish is gonna be freezer burned and getting thrown in the garbage. 00:41:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, but we ate half our fish before we left. 00:41:29 Speaker 1: Man, that was fun. That was funk. Yeah. 00:41:33 Speaker 6: There's a YouTube video of a guy in like Japan doing it, but not your boyfriend. He there's a video somewhere. 00:41:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he wrote about it, right. 00:41:42 Speaker 6: Yeah, he wrote it a piece about it for the food magazine Lucky Peach. So and it has broken down, so it's more than he definitely more than three steps. 00:41:50 Speaker 1: He's a good cook. 00:41:51 Speaker 5: You know. 00:41:51 Speaker 2: New York City fish murder. 00:41:54 Speaker 4: Cool, Yeah, I mean you have thought the most fish blood on her hands? 00:41:59 Speaker 11: Yeah, well, what's the deal with Like with fly fishing, it seems like everyone's all about numbers instead of like because when we when we fish. 00:42:09 Speaker 6: In Long Island, it's like, oh, I got this like dormat you know, double digit fluke, you know, like the size and versus like I mean, like obviously you can all do a regulation so you can only keep a number of I'm not like I caught fifty porgies today. 00:42:27 Speaker 4: It's like one good fish. Like you'll go on like the Missouri or you know, the Yellowstone or something that has the potential to be like there's a big fish in there. People catch them all the time. Yeah, it hasn't been me, you know, And a lot of days like you're like, okay, I'm gonna throw like a big streamer or do something that I've told myself is the way to catch a big fish. And it's a one fish day or a zero fish day, you know. Yeah, yeah, you know. 00:43:03 Speaker 1: And one of my I once wrote something about how I was like imagining the world, like if we could go back to the beginning of human existence and have all the same conditions and let everything run forward, again, just see what would happen, right. I think a lot of the things that happened would happen all over again. 00:43:24 Speaker 7: Okay. 00:43:25 Speaker 1: I think that we would probably a lot of people would develop sort of monogamous relationships. Okay, Like there's all these things of human behavior that I feel like if you just backed it up and let it go again, the same thing could happen. 00:43:37 Speaker 2: We would hunt, we. 00:43:38 Speaker 1: Would fish, right, we'd probably form government language would have happened again. I think there's a couple of things. Wearing your pants down around, blow your ass. 00:43:49 Speaker 2: Would not happen again. And I don't think catch release fly fishing would happen. 00:43:52 Speaker 1: Again, because I feel that like when people and I do it too, so I'll talk about me too. I think it's it's like you're it's like some wiring got crossed in your head where you feel that as a human. And I'm saying this about myself as a human, like I'm supposed to be out extracting, Okay. 00:44:14 Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be out hunting and fishing. 00:44:16 Speaker 1: Because for however long you want to define human history, you want to go back seventy five thousand years, fifty thousand years, there's always you know, everybody basically says some last one hundred thousand years whatever, anatomically modern humans, we've been doing these things, hunting, fishing, and I think people are kind of like but I'm a little civilized, like I'm not cool with the death, but I have to do the act, like I have to do it. 00:44:41 Speaker 4: You're doing it for pleasure at that point. 00:44:43 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I just don't see where it came from. 00:44:46 Speaker 1: It's like golf with which. 00:44:47 Speaker 4: Where did cave art come from? 00:44:49 Speaker 3: Right? 00:44:50 Speaker 4: Like part of it was I want to express myself. The other part of it is it's pretty brutal out there. I'm probably gonna waste some time in here, makes me, makes me pay. It's like it's it's a form of entertainment. 00:45:05 Speaker 2: Right, It somehow could be superfluous to survive. 00:45:09 Speaker 4: And you couldn't tell me that. These guys were like, Okay, I know I can catch a bunch of these things. I'm gonna kill all of them, even though I know I can't eat them, right. I mean, those people at the time be like, boy, there's a lot of you know, this fish in this area. This you know, rabbit population is really good here. I'm gonna take a couple and come back later. Right, So in a fishing scenario, they're catching fish in this spot, be like, boy, it's fun catching fish, right, catch him right. 00:45:41 Speaker 3: I'm not going to your own question. I think that human beings are just hardwired to do exactly that, Like you know, they're like getting it on. That's like hardwired in and so fishing correct, But it's it's the same kind of deal, just hardwired in. Like this is fun. Why it's fun? I have no idea, it's just it's fun. 00:46:08 Speaker 2: It's just fun. 00:46:10 Speaker 1: Also in a friend of mine is an evolutionary biologist, and uh, we were talking about that, like the benefit, like the evolutionary benefit of of sex being enjoyable is that people will continue to procreate outside of intent. You know, my wife's pregnant right now with the kid. We weren't exactly planning on. 00:46:31 Speaker 3: So you're preaching to the choir. 00:46:36 Speaker 1: So she was saying, like, I wonder and she doesn't hunt. We took her out spearfishing in the Behinda was a good spearfishing and after she's like, why is that fun? You know, she's like, I wonder if it's not fun, because it was like advantageous for it to seem fun to us. Then it would mean like even beyond desperation, that we'd be out there hammering it, like out there fishing, out there, honting like that. 00:47:01 Speaker 2: If you draw some kind of pleasure from it. 00:47:03 Speaker 1: It's not an onerous task, but you'd have it be the Yeah, I'm just out there, and even though I'm not absolutely out of food, I'm out there doing it anyway because it's just my it's what I enjoy doing. Like, there's possibly there is some huge adaptive advantage to us thinking it's fun to catch fish. 00:47:19 Speaker 3: It is huge because, for instance, if you didn't enjoy it that much, you wouldn't do it that much, and when it got truly difficult, you probably might not be that good at it. Whereas the guys that really enjoyed it almost to the point of, you know, overdoing it when things got really difficult, they were the only guys that were actually catching fish and the only guys that you know, we're eating enough to go pro create. 00:47:43 Speaker 2: Dude, if you wrote that, you would get it published in like science or Nature. 00:47:48 Speaker 1: I'm sure I like it. 00:47:49 Speaker 3: That's evolution. 00:47:52 Speaker 1: I always want to end this right now. I'm sure it's you want it up. I want to back it up and end it earlier and then steal that idea. 00:48:01 Speaker 2: So cut that out. 00:48:03 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it. We'll be right back and I'm gonna say what Ken just said. 00:48:11 Speaker 3: You know, but that's that's how it works, right, the push comes to shove. If the guy is totally obsessed, he's going to be just a little better. 00:48:21 Speaker 6: So let's say one of he's obsessed and just like just completely horrible fishing. 00:48:27 Speaker 2: Already know that guy. 00:48:29 Speaker 1: There's no one I'm going to say his name, but I fish with him. I fish with them the most, Like the most obsessed fisherman I know is the worst fisherman. 00:48:36 Speaker 6: I know. 00:48:36 Speaker 1: That's it's like a curse. 00:48:38 Speaker 3: All we can hope says he makes god awful love to the woman who doesn't like fishing, but if she did, would be extraordinary at it, and then you. 00:48:47 Speaker 2: Create this dude is the worst angler. 00:48:50 Speaker 1: And I feel a lot of times when people are bad hunting fishing, I feel that what they lack is kill her instinct, like what my brother would say, they lack girl the girl. It's like they like her and they don't have like what it tastes like. 00:49:06 Speaker 2: I'm gonna kill it. 00:49:07 Speaker 1: People, You're not gonna kill it. Like today, when I'm fishing, I'm not like, if I see a fish come up to grab ive, comes up to Papa dry fly, I don't. In the moment when it's happening, the moment when my mind's registering his presence, i'm lifting the rod, I'm not thinking, oh you, sweet fish, I love you. I'm more inclined to say, oh you. You know what I mean. It's like I have an antagon even though I love the essence of the thing. In that moment, I feel this is gonna come off weird. I feel a very distinct sport like hatred for that fish. If he doesn't grab my fly right, if I hook him, then I like him again. If he comes off, I don't like him. 00:49:49 Speaker 3: But if you go to set the hook and there and your line goes in a pile, expletives follow, and I hate. 00:49:57 Speaker 2: I hate the fish. 00:49:57 Speaker 1: It's like I'm like, I hope something bad have you and you projected and someone and someone does what's that word. 00:50:04 Speaker 2: Again to your spine? 00:50:09 Speaker 3: Is that I was just. 00:50:10 Speaker 1: Gonna do like ekg like like like echo kilo hell. 00:50:15 Speaker 4: Unto her credit, did not mutter, I think any expletives on the river today while. 00:50:22 Speaker 5: No I was very upset with myself, but. 00:50:25 Speaker 4: We were watching the little trout eat bugs next to her fly and I was the one being like, ye written hurt. 00:50:33 Speaker 3: But now that being said, so you're you're you're. You take an example of somebody that is doesn't have the gur. But I think that the girl in general can possibly be learned when it comes to hunting. I mean it acquired ger perhaps when you first go out with it, can you bottle it? I know when you first go out hunting with a bow, though, and you know, you get your first couple close counters with like a big bull, it's kind of I don't know, you're kind of sometimes like is this guy? It's can I shoot? You know what I mean? And then after all you get rattle, I think, and it makes you freaks you out. But then after a while, you know you I wouldn't say you hopefully you never get comfortable. That situation is always exciting, but it goes from kind of like Wow, this is great to like, how am I going to get a narrow in that out? 00:51:23 Speaker 4: Yeah? 00:51:23 Speaker 1: You know that's the thing I've said a lot about, Uh, particularly bohunt. But when you pull back on an animal, you have to know that that thing's gonna die. Because if you're like I hope, I hope, I hope this doesn't you know what I mean, will happen. But the guy who could be like, I will now kill you. Yeah, well, more like it's more that's more of a successful attitude than sort of being like, we let's see what happens. 00:51:46 Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed, agreed, And that's probably why you know, hey, you know, there's probably some synergy here between rifle versus arch bow and and uh spinning or bait fishing versus. 00:52:00 Speaker 6: I thought, you know, I don't know, no, tell no, I mean I've never I've personally never gone hunting, but I imagine fly fishing is like bow hunting, you know, versus like bait fishing or jigging or something. 00:52:19 Speaker 2: It's like, I want to edit the podcast. 00:52:22 Speaker 3: Here's the similarity, here's the similarity. And that with archery, you have got to practice a lot. Yeah, you got to practice, you know, and and the practice becomes enjoyable, like you know, leading up to the season, your practice every day for a few months at least, and it becomes part of your daily ritual. You enjoy the shooting of the bow, right, Whereas fly fishing, I think a lot of times, even if it flysh fishing is not that great, you kind of enjoy the actual act of casting, whereas I'm not sure if it's the same with you know, chuck and bait. 00:52:54 Speaker 1: No, and I'll tell you what we just got back from our place in Alaska. Bounce and a pound lead and two hundred and fifty feet of water for halib it right, And you don't enjoy that, right, It's not like, oh I love lifting this pound let up and bouncing on the bottom. But I'll tell you what you do, like all that thing goes. Yes, he's on there and he's smoking line out and you have no idea he's two hundred pounds or that sounds awesome, you know what I'm telling you. 00:53:18 Speaker 2: But yeah, there's no finesse, there's no art. 00:53:20 Speaker 7: You know. 00:53:21 Speaker 3: And to the largest thing I think that fly fishing, you know, you got to practice without even fishing generally speaking, for at least you know, a week or two. 00:53:29 Speaker 7: I want to. 00:53:30 Speaker 1: Interject to say though, that Rihanna's had My my four year old was fishing with us this morning. My four year old. What I mean, he looked the fish on this like the first time he ever laid his hand on the fly rod. 00:53:39 Speaker 4: Yeah, four year old. 00:53:41 Speaker 1: It took him a long time to catch fish on his on his coat spinning reel, even though he smokes. You know, that's actually this one I wanted to bring up because my little boy, all my little boy knows about like at home when we eat, well, we just eat game, you know, wild fish, wild game at home. So he's always every dight when we eat, we're talking about where it just came from. You know, Daddy killed this thing and here's what happened. He's always talking about the moose that ran daddy over, which Ryan Callens knows that moose. 00:54:11 Speaker 4: Well, we're all still eating on that moon. 00:54:13 Speaker 1: He always knows these stories. He always knows these stories, and he's never heard anyone because he's young enough or I know, what is his influences are, you know, I mean, like he's not off with kids that I don't know, and you know, I know who he hangs out with. I take him fishing and he we're at my mom's the lake I grew up on, and we're on my mom's pond toon boat and he catches five bluegills. I mean, he's like making his own casts, reeling in like legit catches five blue gills. We go home and I scale the fish and when I'm flaying blue is I just cut their head off? Fir's just easier, you know, I get a cleaner flay. So I come in by their not packs, yeah, pectoral fins. No, no, no, that was to fin up by the right below the gill plate. 00:55:03 Speaker 7: I don't know. I can't remember. 00:55:06 Speaker 1: So it was a cut in there, cut the head off, and then I flam so as I go in and cut the heads off, and I got the heads of one pound the bodies in our pile, and he's up on a chair next to me helping. He was like legitimately honestly upset, and it came from an organic place, because this isn't something that's something like, No, I know that no one has said to him it's bad to kill fish. All he's ever heard is it is good to kill fish. As he was upset, and you could tell he thought he didn't he didn't articulate this way, but he looked at those fish. 00:55:37 Speaker 2: He told me, I don't like that you put their heads like that and their. 00:55:41 Speaker 1: Bodies like that. He didn't say it, but it was like it was disrespectful, and he said and he said this exactly. He expressed regret that we killed those fish and we should have put him back in the lake. 00:55:55 Speaker 4: So where did that come from? 00:55:57 Speaker 1: It came from somewhere. And I'm telling you what it's like. It's not he's not saying something that someone else. 00:56:02 Speaker 3: Well, I could have come from finding Nemo or something. 00:56:05 Speaker 1: He's never seen that movie. 00:56:06 Speaker 3: He didn't kill Nemo just then. 00:56:08 Speaker 1: No, it wasn't that, man. I'll tell you. I'm sensitive that because, well, you know, I always called killer whales killer whales. You're supposed to come now like a lot of like soft. He's called him Orcus, but Orcs just some like it's like a Greek word that means whale. They used to call him whale killers. Because now you can't call him killer whales. I feel think it is a bad reputation. I always called killer whales. When name my kid comes back, he's like, you know, you got it all wrong. I was down at the Seattle Aquarium. 00:56:29 Speaker 2: It's an Orca. 00:56:31 Speaker 1: So now he always calls him Orcus. So he's cited to me where he heard contrary information. No one, I'm telling you, no one has told that kid. 00:56:39 Speaker 4: Well they killed kid that you can't kill call it killer whale, killer whale, you know, and are re hurting the whales feelings? What do you mean give him a. 00:56:47 Speaker 1: Bad Apparently, I don't know. I have no idea what I think. 00:56:50 Speaker 4: They're like badasses? 00:56:51 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, Orca just means whale. It's the stupidest thing in the world. But like some of my nearest dearest friends are like, oh, it's an orca. One day I was with these guys speaking all am, I getting way too firefield. Can I tell a quick story? Okay, I was working on a book about Buffalo, and everybody knows buffalo's a bison. So the American bison, the American buffalo. It's not actually a buffalo. Blah blah blah. People been calling them buffalo. Hell, what long have they been calling them bison? 00:57:13 Speaker 2: I've never said to someone in my life buffalo and had them be confused about what I was talking about. 00:57:20 Speaker 1: Okay, on this content anyways, I was with these guys when I was working on my book. I spent some time with these guys. Buffalo Field Campaign. Okay, so they're like are they're pretty radical environmentalists who have a certain vision for American buffalo American bison, and their group's called the Buffalo Field Campaigns. So their group uses the name that's not the scientific proper name for the species, which is bison. I'm standing with this guy outside of Yelston Park and Gardner, Montana, and. 00:57:47 Speaker 4: I see. 00:57:49 Speaker 7: An anelope. 00:57:51 Speaker 1: Okay, I go, hey, check out those antelope over there. It's actually prong Horney says to me. I'm like, dude, you you work for a group that calls something the wrong name. Drove me nuts, man, I can tell that bother you say antelope or prong horn. 00:58:07 Speaker 4: Just like everything under this prairie go speed goes, speed go prairie go. Yeah, prong horn antelope. 00:58:15 Speaker 1: I combine him. 00:58:16 Speaker 2: Now. 00:58:16 Speaker 1: I found I found myself doing like the weirdest thing. 00:58:18 Speaker 4: Like it's anelo capra American. 00:58:21 Speaker 1: I always say prong horn anilo. 00:58:22 Speaker 2: I was like why, I just say, what were we talking about? 00:58:29 Speaker 1: Before I got off on that. 00:58:30 Speaker 4: Jimmy Oh that he had like a natural and I got to say, my experience with folks from Michigan who fish, this kid has like gone way off the reservation because all the Michiganers, I know, like they filled the freezer. 00:58:46 Speaker 7: Yeah, that's that's the program. 00:58:47 Speaker 2: Well, he told me. 00:58:48 Speaker 3: Now. 00:58:48 Speaker 1: I gave him a not a stern talking to, but he told me this morning, he goes, I get it now. It's like I get it now. You know, I don't know what that means. But he's like, now, it's okay. But when he let that go today, he said, I'm quoting him. He said, there you go back in the wild. 00:59:08 Speaker 3: Okay, I gotta visit something. So you guys eat bass out there. 00:59:13 Speaker 1: Large mouth. I eat him as a political statement. 00:59:15 Speaker 3: What does it taste like? I tried to cook his bass one time in a bund And let me tell you all. 00:59:20 Speaker 1: My fishing mentor, who grew up about six houses down with me, was a man named John Gary. He fished so much and cast so many fishing he sold like a black market fish sales. He's dead now, and right before he died, I was over his house and he offered to sell me. He's like, I'll make a deal. I'll sell you my house, everything in it, down to my shoes, lake front property. 00:59:44 Speaker 2: Said I'll save this house for seventy five thousand dollars. 00:59:46 Speaker 7: You give me the money now. 00:59:47 Speaker 2: The only deal is I live here till I die, and when I die, you have everything down to my shoes. 00:59:52 Speaker 3: Why why do you want to keep your shoes after he dies? 00:59:54 Speaker 1: He's saying what he's saying that I would be buying everything he's ever owned, and you agree with. 00:59:59 Speaker 2: The He could get the money now and continue to live in his house till he died. 01:00:03 Speaker 1: And I didn't take him up on that deal. I should have ran down. 01:00:05 Speaker 7: To a bank. 01:00:06 Speaker 1: Anyways, heat a lot of bass, and large mouth bass, and he soaked him in milk and grilled him whoa whoa skin on. 01:00:14 Speaker 2: Took large mouths, soaked him in milk, grilled him, skin. 01:00:18 Speaker 4: Down, scale them. 01:00:20 Speaker 1: No, no, because what you would do then he'd put the fish on the grill, skin down, scales on. He'd cook it till it was till it got you know, they get loose in their skin. He then take the fish and flip it back over onto its skin so din't get stuck to the grill. Finished it like that, and he would eat them all the time like that. 01:00:38 Speaker 3: What it tastes like? 01:00:40 Speaker 2: Muddy fish? 01:00:41 Speaker 3: Yeah? 01:00:41 Speaker 4: What is the milk thing? 01:00:42 Speaker 1: Because it helps the money. This I'm telling you it does. Man, how PEPSI challenge it any day of the week. I sell catfish and milk better than like salt water. 01:00:51 Speaker 7: I don't know. 01:00:52 Speaker 2: I can't answer that question. 01:00:53 Speaker 3: It's an interesting thing that you brought up because a lot of the people that live by the ocean and fish in the rivers don't even keep any fish unless they catch him in the within like five miles, because the ocean fish are ten times better fish. That's what they say. 01:01:06 Speaker 1: They say, I don't even like, no, it's like, that's not even debatable. 01:01:10 Speaker 3: They taste it. They're like, they catch big forty pounds salmon going back. It's like, I don't even And if it's like more than two miles or whatever, you know, they're off the away out of the ocean. Forget it. 01:01:22 Speaker 1: Well, with salmon, it makes sense because when the salmon goes to enter, he's in the best shape he's ever gonna be in it for his entire life. Right when he leaves the ocean, when he's at the mouth, right if he's still actively feeding near river mouth, he's never gonna be in a better shape. He's got a higher fat content, he's ever gonna have the rest of his life. And the minute he enters that river, he's degraded. He's going downhill and it tastes like mud. They just get worse and worse they get, you know, the priests, and they got like fungus and lesions all over them. But yeah, but now I eat large mouth just as a political statement. Every time I kill large mouth and flat, I like to put it on social media, you know, because I know I'm not damaged. I'm not damaging a fishery when I when I thump a large mouth, it's not. 01:02:09 Speaker 6: But how often do you guys eat like trout or like I mean, because people are eating. 01:02:13 Speaker 1: I just a trout. I had a trout the day after. I had a rainbow the day after me. And it's here contracted trick and osis. 01:02:22 Speaker 3: You guys both got trick from bear. 01:02:29 Speaker 1: So anyways, we ate some trout and grayling. One of them was called on a flypole. 01:02:35 Speaker 4: A fly rod called. 01:02:40 Speaker 1: As a political statement, I called a flypole. 01:02:43 Speaker 5: Do I think the. 01:02:44 Speaker 6: Ideal thing would be to like, I mean, just because of my like water access to learn how to fly fish, but salt water, so then you can target like blueish stripe bass and stuff on the fly, because to me, it's like a progression, like as a fisher, you know, in whatever, it's like, Okay, you can bait fish, you can jake, you can do it. But it's like, what's the next step, you know, like the next challenge. It's like fly fishing is to me like much more challenging, you know, obviously because I'm the beginner. 01:03:12 Speaker 2: But let's man, you cannot make a statement like that. You no, Okay, go up to it. 01:03:18 Speaker 1: Go up and show me how easy it is to go mooch like a big, thirty forty pound king. 01:03:24 Speaker 5: I guess it's because I was so simple. 01:03:27 Speaker 2: You just well, I don't even know what you do. It's like, it's not it depends on the situation. 01:03:31 Speaker 4: You just put your bait over the side. 01:03:33 Speaker 1: Okay, to my mom my mom's dock. Go stand at my mom's dock with a beadhead pheasant tail when the bluegills around the beds, and tell me how tough it is the hook him on a fire rod. 01:03:43 Speaker 4: You can't keep them. 01:03:44 Speaker 5: I guess it defends. 01:03:45 Speaker 1: It depends on the situations. 01:03:48 Speaker 4: But those situations where you cannot keep them off, I change things up because I'm like, okay, I know I can catch them this way. Really, yeah, I do all and when we fish steel ahead, yeah, you know, I'm like, okay, I know for a fact today I can catch a fish this way. Yeah, but if they're that hungry to eat everything I threw in this way, I bet I can tie this on and catch a deep you know, catch a few fish. 01:04:15 Speaker 1: So when you're when you're like hammering ducks on a great day, I like the hunt ducks, do you ever start shooting left handed? No? 01:04:21 Speaker 7: No, I do not. 01:04:22 Speaker 2: Do you ever start like pouring out half the shot out of your shot shell and putting back. 01:04:25 Speaker 7: To each other shooting that? 01:04:27 Speaker 1: No? I do not, cuh, just curiously. 01:04:29 Speaker 4: But the thing I'm eating those two. 01:04:31 Speaker 3: You know, typically you would if you were hammering and switch to a twelve gauge instead of twenty, I mean a twenty instead of twelve. 01:04:38 Speaker 2: You would. 01:04:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know anybody's ever done that in the history. 01:04:41 Speaker 7: Of my life. 01:04:42 Speaker 3: That's common out here. 01:04:44 Speaker 1: Perhaps you don't get out with the twelve and it's twenty. You'd be like if I start really knocking them. 01:04:48 Speaker 3: Down and the switching twenty, you're like, the hunting's been good. Its good. Last time I'm shooting with the twelve, I'm shooting with the twenty nine. There are some other reasons the twenty is significantly quieter. 01:04:56 Speaker 1: So probably because your head hurts from shooting your twelve. 01:05:01 Speaker 4: Hurts. 01:05:01 Speaker 8: So good? All right, Right, we watching a movie last night with a guy shooting ducks. 01:05:07 Speaker 1: With black power. 01:05:09 Speaker 2: That is respect Like, I respect that, right, but. 01:05:11 Speaker 8: Why is he doing that for the challenge? 01:05:13 Speaker 1: I respect that. 01:05:14 Speaker 4: It's fun. 01:05:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's just like fun, say with this dude hunts ducks with So this is like last night, right. The Hunting film tour sponsored by first Light sponsored by as a fundraiser for back country hunters and anglers. I spoke there briefly a couple minutes. I had five minutes to explain to people why public land is important, why back country is important. 01:05:37 Speaker 4: Which is typically like five minutes subject. 01:05:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I tried to cover as quickly as probably toold be six minutes to explain a little bit about why we need more of it around or not more. There's no way to get more. You don't get more of it. Why we need to hang on to what we have. And there was a film there about a dude who made a little wetland and we're shooting exposed hammer black powder at ducks. You're saying, if I could go out like a limit seven, if I can get two with this, it's better to me than getting seven with something else. I just thought, he don't like duck meat that much. Now I'll tell you the fly fisherman I'm going to respect. And again, I keep on it because there's two things. There's a guy out there's like a bunch of guys out there right now, super annoyed because they're probably the meat slains people on the planet who like fish fly rods, right, They probably fish strivers that fly rod thump every fish they get, eat them all day long. They don't think that there's this dichotomy where it's like, oh, you fish with spin reel, so you must be a meat guy, and you fish with a fly rod, so you must not. Because there's a hell of a lot of guys a fish lardmouth bass with spinning tackle and never kill a fish ever. Right, So it's not like it's not a dichotomy. But I'm talking about general trends, particularly in the Western US anyway. So there's that I should clear up. I want to meet the guy and yanis alluded to this today. I want to meet the guy who not just cuts the barb off his hook, but cuts the whole hook off before the bend, because he's so peer of heart, so pure of mind that he just wants to see that fish come up and lip the thing. 01:07:07 Speaker 8: But we can make a phone call where we would not get a hold of Ted himself, but I can get a hold of probably the guide who guides Ted. 01:07:16 Speaker 1: I guess you don't mean Ted Nugent, no. 01:07:19 Speaker 8: Way cooler than Ted Nugent, But this dude's he could darn be close to ninety years old, and he's five fish to the Eagle River for you know, thirty years. 01:07:29 Speaker 4: Yeah, and floats all the time. 01:07:32 Speaker 8: And yeah, on those good days when they're just like I was saying, every couple of minutes, you're getting a hit on the dry he catches a couple, kind of gets the tug out of the way, and then just starts clipping the hose. 01:07:42 Speaker 9: That right, because he just loves the He feels like it's getting in his way to fight net release and all that out of the fun he's getting out of casting and watching those fish eat that dry hell, and how. 01:07:54 Speaker 7: Long we've been going for. 01:07:57 Speaker 5: Our eight minutes? 01:07:59 Speaker 9: What them? 01:08:01 Speaker 1: Since I got you? Since I got the first light? 01:08:03 Speaker 7: Boys sitting right here? 01:08:04 Speaker 2: What's uh? 01:08:05 Speaker 1: What's cool on the horizon? Are you gonna make some Are you gonna make a coat that lures in bull out? 01:08:13 Speaker 4: We work on the sense in the office is you come in there and it just. 01:08:20 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's terrific in that office. 01:08:22 Speaker 1: Know what's going on? 01:08:23 Speaker 4: So you got I do, I do really appreciate you, uh, you know, mentioning that we do try to keep it live person in the office. 01:08:30 Speaker 3: When's this gonna go on? When's this going to be on the rd? 01:08:33 Speaker 10: Know? 01:08:33 Speaker 7: Whenever I feel like it? 01:08:34 Speaker 3: Like how long a week? 01:08:37 Speaker 1: I don't know, Why does that matter? Just tell us what's happening? 01:08:39 Speaker 7: Cool? 01:08:42 Speaker 1: Oh because you got because your word? Okay, yeah you're safe. I mean what you tell me? At what point? Yeah you can yeah, tell me at what point? 01:08:49 Speaker 3: Two weeks? 01:08:50 Speaker 2: Okay, you're fine? 01:08:51 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, you know, we don't if it's something that you don't want us to release, you know, you won't do it. 01:08:56 Speaker 3: That's fine. We're just talking about you guys. Swimwear coming out with new our new camouflage pattern really yep. 01:09:04 Speaker 4: Yep. 01:09:04 Speaker 3: It was designed by a guy that uh, an ex army guy who was just super super into Camo and we started development maybe I don't know, well over a year ago and we've were coming out with a new cameo pattern that we've just for First Light. 01:09:20 Speaker 7: I'm excited to see it. 01:09:21 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good idea though. 01:09:23 Speaker 4: Yeah it is. 01:09:24 Speaker 3: You know, we've really liked a lot of the existing cameo patterns and they certainly work great for certain environments, but we kind of wanted to take some of the technology of a few different patterns and kind of blend them into one and kind of make a cameo pattern that worked well in a bunch of different environments. 01:09:41 Speaker 2: Does it have a name? 01:09:42 Speaker 3: Fusion? 01:09:43 Speaker 7: Really? 01:09:43 Speaker 3: Yeah, First Light Fusion, And you're gonna make all of your stuff from that, yep. And it'll all be available here by the end of the year. Most of the basse layers and stuff shall be available in the next week or so. 01:09:55 Speaker 2: But no one's seen it. 01:09:57 Speaker 7: I have seen it. 01:09:58 Speaker 3: Nope, no one's seen it. No and seen it. We didn't have the shot show it was. It's just so difficult to get We have so many different fabrics now, we had no idea if we could even pull it off this year. So basically we just went forward with the program and said, if we can do it in time for hunting season, fine, if not, whatever. But you know, there's just all these different all the fabrics have to match. You know, you might buy one synthetic top from one one end of the country and another marino piece from another end of the country. You want to wear them together, so you gotta different Yeah, so you really got to struggle to get all those colors to match and everything. So it takes a long time. So once we got all our factories online, we told them, you know, let's go. When we were building it, so we're going to have stuff ready shortly. 01:10:44 Speaker 1: Now, Krav, if I'm wrong, you're the Was you the first person to ever put camouflage on renal wool? Yes, basically, which is not an easy thing to do. 01:10:54 Speaker 3: It's yeah, it was me. 01:10:56 Speaker 2: We started with a box, yeah, exactly, melted and put them in the oven. 01:11:01 Speaker 3: Damn you no, we started we were all totally into hunting, and then we started wearing you know, we live in a ski town, so then kind of in the early two thousands, you know, Marino stuff kind of came into the ski and snowboarding and snowmobiling seemed pretty heavy, you know, and we started switching over to that. 01:11:20 Speaker 2: People started wearing it because they realized it didn't reak, It wasn't. 01:11:24 Speaker 3: They started comfort. They started, yeah, it didn't smell, and it's just way more comfortable, even when you do sweat. And then, you know, we were all super into archery, hunting and hunting in general, and it didn't take long to figure out that this would be way better than existing products for hunting. But at the time, nobody printed on marino. You know, people are like T shirt style, maybe like you know, they finished T shirt and they'd print, you know, something like cutesy on it, but not like large rolls just rolls out. So it took us about eighteen months to find a factory that could actually do it. 01:11:57 Speaker 9: You know. 01:11:57 Speaker 3: We tried a couple of different things and it didn't feel or whatever. Then we found a guy that could do it and do it well, and that was the beginning of the company. The first year showed up with a shot show with literally like a Duffel bag and I had five pieces, you know, and that was it and just kind of hung them up and you know. 01:12:16 Speaker 2: Some weird dude. 01:12:17 Speaker 3: That was weird. 01:12:19 Speaker 4: It was it was I was wearing white with your like skater Levi. 01:12:26 Speaker 3: White boots, my hunting boots. You know, wore whites up until like eight years ago. There's just the most comfortable shoes. I'd used. 01:12:35 Speaker 7: Logging. 01:12:36 Speaker 3: That's what I used for logging, and that's what we used for you know, walking around. It wasn't until probably eight or seven or eight years ago that we kind of got into the more you know, technical stuff, but that's what we'd work in all day. So we figured out it's great for hunting. But the fact is it's kind of a different deal, you know. And once we switched over to you know, now use handbags, but you know, Solomon's or whatever, just having something lighter that. The thing with whites is that if you have to wear them every single day, you'd wear out a pair of Solomons and. 01:13:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, man, yeah, they're not they're not intending that you're actually just gonna wear them around on hard surfaces all the time. 01:13:14 Speaker 3: Yeah, or even you know in the woods you destroy them, or a pair of whites you wear for whatever, you know, two years you set them out to get them resold and they're good to go. 01:13:21 Speaker 1: I keep a pair of keep for hunting. Yeah, I for not hunting, but I don't want my hunting boots to get screwed up walking on sidewalks. 01:13:29 Speaker 2: And stuff like that. 01:13:30 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it makes sense. 01:13:31 Speaker 1: The toules the edges down and you can't cut in on hills, you. 01:13:34 Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, and going downhills. They still aren't as good as whites. But the fact is is that you know, our hunting season out here, it's only whatever ten weeks, So you'd rather have a pair of shoes that they don't have to glass that long. You just have to work really well and be really light and make it so you can carry a you know, eighty hundred pound pack down a hill, and all of a sudden, once you realize that it's it's nice, you know. 01:13:56 Speaker 8: I think for the listener, we should explain what whites are because I don't know what. 01:14:00 Speaker 4: Yeah, I just barely know the Spokane. 01:14:01 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're not a Spokane America. May they're just like they're you know what, you see all the foest service guys wearing the logging guys. 01:14:07 Speaker 2: It was like to the untrained eye, it look like a lady boot. 01:14:10 Speaker 1: Yeah. 01:14:11 Speaker 3: The heels got a big heel two inches, Yeah, pretty low pro Yeah, they're two inches. And then they've got just regular vibrum souls. But they can rebuild them for you. 01:14:19 Speaker 1: You know, you're sending like I used to have some whites pack boots, which just like real heavy. I used to use them climbing trees and the word times ice to do arborist work. Yeah, we get these winter contracts doing boulevard maples. I remember one year we did three hundred some boulevard maples and some days it's ten degrees below zero because this is cutting trees in Montana. And I would put tree spikes on over them because they're so rigid. But I always thought they're like kind of too rigid for hunting. 01:14:44 Speaker 3: You know, they were let's say break in, but that's you know, we that's before we'd spend all day in the woods. You know, we're in a logging business, to firewood and whatever. That was just what you'd wore. And then after a while, though, you know, you realize, wow, there's some way better off options there. 01:15:00 Speaker 7: Yeah. 01:15:01 Speaker 3: Especially it's because they don't have to last, like I said, you know, maybe a season or two seasons, Max, and you ready to buy a new pair, you know. 01:15:09 Speaker 1: You know, I want to talking man about you know, just talking about wool, because you guys do such a nice job with the Marino wool stuff. Wolves had a weird history because my old man, like my old man started hunting after World War Two, so he started hunting. He got back from World War two nineteen forty five, got into hunting, he said. But at the time, like there wasn't that he didn't have like sporting goods like you have now, you know. He said, they used to they just hunting their clothes. 01:15:31 Speaker 2: They hunted their. 01:15:32 Speaker 1: Military surplus stuff. He said, for ten years. It's still the best stuff you could have. 01:15:35 Speaker 2: And he just spent two and a half years crawling around essentially. 01:15:39 Speaker 1: Camping out, you know, from all through Italy up into Europe in wool clothes and living in a fox whole camps. He said, they just hunted that stuff. And he told he tells a funny story where he used to just hunt with other vets, you know, and they were out one time in a field hunting. Everybody had their army surplus stuff on. I guess it wasn't surplus back then. Their army stuff back on, and some took a shot. He said, A couple of those guys off the field all hit the deck like it was like still like in their head. But he always hunted them wool. I mean, all the time I was growing up, my old man wore you know, it was like green wool. They're not surplus, but I don't remember who makes them, but it's like a field pant and you'd die hiking into your tree stand. You'd be like so sweaty. 01:16:21 Speaker 10: You know. 01:16:22 Speaker 1: We used to like hiking and then put your pants on when you got there because they're so warm, this thick green wool. And my mom would buy bulk wool fabric and so close for me my brothers out of wool that we would hunt in. 01:16:35 Speaker 2: I wish I had saved him. 01:16:36 Speaker 1: We all had pants and a jacket that my mom made out of wool, and we stellup there hot in hell. And I remember, like when I was a little kid, they came out with that King of the Mountain wool clothes and getting that catalog and just dreaming over that trapper pull over. It was like a four hundred dollars washed the wool jackets. It seemed like it was like unfathom Moabe that you'd like have that kind of money to buy some sort of garment. And then Cabella's came mount with a washable wool. It was supposed to be like a knockoff a King of the Mountain, and they were half as much. 01:17:05 Speaker 2: I bought a pair of those pants and washed. 01:17:07 Speaker 1: Them and they were like spandex in my buddy, like they're be like, dude, what are those I'm like, listen, man, you're looking at a lot of money right now. I don't care what these things look like. I'm wearing them. And then now with like your guys stuff, like you honestly can put it in. It's like you washing the washing machine. Yeah, it's unbelievable, it is, but it's like still the best fabric and it grows on the back of sheet credit line for a bachelor. 01:17:32 Speaker 3: I didn't even know. I wasn't even aware of like whool. But you know, I mean, I've been wearing Polypro since I was ten years old. 01:17:41 Speaker 1: When I started hunting the mountains. We look like dudes out of the RII catalog. Yeah, we wore mountain clothes. Yeah, we didn't have anything. 01:17:48 Speaker 2: Actually, meant for a hundred one because it was all too big. 01:17:51 Speaker 1: If you're like a skinny guy who runs around the mountains a lot, it's too big for you right then. And so we just wore like mountaineering clothes. We hunted a mountaineering clobes, exact thing we have like blue and red you I mean, like we'd like I'd like get ritt dye and try like die stuff. 01:18:06 Speaker 4: So it was a little duller, some Patadonia stuff, some a lot of Sims fleeces. 01:18:11 Speaker 1: Totally, man, totally, I would get it. I would go to good Wills. I have a lot of Moneys in school. I'd go to good Wills in rich towns. Like if you could hit a good Will in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, you know, or hit a good Will here, catch minta home, you would walk out like tricked out and amazing mountain apparel, ski apparel and stuff. And we hunt because it was like so great, not just you know, not people make stuff for like skinny dudes that like they're running around the mountains. 01:18:36 Speaker 4: Flip side is senior citizen centers. Don't overlook those because. 01:18:40 Speaker 2: You get they flag them. 01:18:42 Speaker 4: You get, uh, you know, old guy dress sweaters, that are one hundred percent lambs wool, and you can haggle those ladies down at the brother He still does old man sweaters about it. 01:18:56 Speaker 3: Were so yeah, that was it. Then that's you know the once everything kind of switched over from synthetics to wool, so did we and then you. 01:19:08 Speaker 2: Know everything meaning the smart people. 01:19:10 Speaker 1: I just you know, like people who don't like smelly clothes. 01:19:12 Speaker 3: Yeah, people spend a lot of time outside, you know, like where to forge you to live at a place where everybody spends a lot of time outside, you know. 01:19:20 Speaker 7: So it's a fit town man. 01:19:22 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of what last night people fit most. 01:19:27 Speaker 1: So that's like a fit crowd, you know. 01:19:29 Speaker 7: Yeah, it would come out for something like that. 01:19:31 Speaker 1: I was kind of blown away, man. 01:19:32 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this place is unique too, and that I mean it's it's it's as steep as it gets like most places in the mountains. You know, you could still kind of enjoy yourself walking up and down stuff out here. Everything's like thirty degrees minimum, wouldn't you say? I mean it's just so steep that you're not pretty fit. It's really it's just wouldn't be fun. You'd just be like this sucks. 01:19:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, Ryan was showing his place he likes to hunt. You said, this is one place I can just tell people where I hunt because they're not. 01:19:59 Speaker 4: Going to walk that. It's the dream there right now. 01:20:04 Speaker 1: Yeah, you might be walking along. You might be walking along and kick something and realize that it's Hemingway's cut up shotgun. 01:20:11 Speaker 2: Oh he brought a full circle. 01:20:13 Speaker 1: He brought the podcast. 01:20:15 Speaker 3: I'll bet you that there there's the welder right there, right right, walk about. 01:20:19 Speaker 2: He's down in the pool. 01:20:20 Speaker 1: Yeah he is. 01:20:21 Speaker 3: He sold those piece one piece off every now and then. 01:20:24 Speaker 2: Helen showed me a note. 01:20:26 Speaker 7: Just tell me what it is. 01:20:27 Speaker 6: Hell no, We're going to post the show notes on the mediator dot com. We'll post links to the ak G videos and. 01:20:33 Speaker 1: All of them say what that means? 01:20:37 Speaker 4: We just did a show. Helen's been taking notes. 01:20:39 Speaker 6: Youah, like links to videos stuff that people I want to check out the video and stuff about our podcast. 01:20:47 Speaker 1: Hell post podcast show. 01:20:54 Speaker 4: Okay, correct, wrong, we should talk about not forgetting in the woods. 01:21:00 Speaker 7: Okay, crazy my mouth. 01:21:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, Helen, Helen used to be Helen used to be the most. I used to admire Helen's work ethic and I'm old enough to have sired Helen. 01:21:13 Speaker 2: If I at twelve, I could have sired you at twelve years ago. Yeah, actually I couldn't have to say it. 01:21:21 Speaker 1: So, Uh, Hell lost her phone day when she had to pee in the woods. It's so different for girls to have to go in the woods. I don't lose anything in the woods because I stay upright. My pockets stay oriented up right. 01:21:37 Speaker 2: For girls got an invert essentially invert and spill their pockets out. 01:21:40 Speaker 3: Did you find it? 01:21:41 Speaker 1: No, she's it's an hour away. She's got to go back and get the name. 01:21:45 Speaker 3: Why ay to call it? 01:21:46 Speaker 1: She's sitting here right now. 01:21:47 Speaker 7: How yeah? Mission? 01:21:54 Speaker 5: That one guy that was there? 01:21:56 Speaker 7: So what was talking about? Oh showed? 01:22:00 Speaker 1: Should you be listening to this podcast? And you're like, man, I wish I knew what they were talking about. You go to the media dot com and you will find show notes. You'll find like links the stuff that we're talking about. 01:22:14 Speaker 7: Is that what you mean? 01:22:15 Speaker 3: Yes? 01:22:16 Speaker 7: Why don't you say that? Hell? 01:22:19 Speaker 2: And mister flight yesterday, mister flight lost your phone? 01:22:28 Speaker 1: Didn't catch it? Squad a rough? 01:22:32 Speaker 7: All right, you're honest. 01:22:34 Speaker 1: You tell us anything you want to close on. 01:22:37 Speaker 2: He's shaking his head. 01:22:38 Speaker 7: No, if you can't. 01:22:43 Speaker 4: Deep in thought there but no. 01:22:47 Speaker 7: Ryan Callahan closing thoughts. 01:22:51 Speaker 1: After I brought it full circle with that Hemmingway deal. I mean, what are you gonna do? 01:22:55 Speaker 4: There's nothing. You wrapped it up tight tight. We got some cooking to do tonight and starting to think about it. 01:23:01 Speaker 9: You know what. 01:23:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about that real quick, real. 01:23:03 Speaker 4: Fast, amazing menu. 01:23:05 Speaker 1: So backcunchy hunt an Angler fundraiser night. I'm doing beaver con feet, which is where sor Yeah. 01:23:15 Speaker 2: I feel like I had some guy if be like, oh, no, you don't know what's been done. 01:23:19 Speaker 1: I just have a feeling that I'm the first guy in the face of the first guy to ever have made beaver confeet. He's like, you don't know everything's been done. I'm like, no, I don't know. That's why I said, I think I'm the first guy to ever make beaver confeet. 01:23:30 Speaker 4: Every tall peak around here has got a corzy yellow belly sitting on top of it, and you're never the first guy to make it up there. 01:23:36 Speaker 1: No, you know what, we were hunting, BC member, We're up on that crazy ridge and the wind was just howling. He looked down. Sure enough, thirty two caliber thirty two caliber Dominion. 01:23:46 Speaker 4: Did you look cartridge out? 01:23:48 Speaker 7: Yes, Canadian maker. 01:23:49 Speaker 9: Wow. 01:23:51 Speaker 1: I took a piece of I took a little bit of white out. I have a after on your per your suggestion. I made a medicine I didn't do a medicine bag. A did a medicine box. 01:23:59 Speaker 2: Cool, which is very centralized location to put all your weird stuff. So I took that cool. 01:24:04 Speaker 1: I took that thirty two Dominion casing and took white out and made just I did like artifacts in the museum. 01:24:10 Speaker 2: I did white out, and then I wrote the date location. 01:24:14 Speaker 7: I found it. 01:24:15 Speaker 1: And then I took my wife's uh nail, what do you call it? Lack nail lacker nail not polished, It wasn't colored turned if I know you don't talking about clear nail polish. And I went over So I did white out, then I wrote the date and location. Then I went over that with clear nail polish. Let it dry and throw my medicine box. 01:24:36 Speaker 4: Sweet, that's cool that you started. 01:24:38 Speaker 8: Did you start one. 01:24:40 Speaker 1: I've had on for a while, dude, I've got bores toss Indian arrowheads. Well, I have my shoe that fell out of. 01:24:46 Speaker 4: My head from that from that black bear. Do you sitting on my desk at home? 01:24:51 Speaker 1: I got packer bones in there. 01:24:52 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, aka swizzle sticks. 01:24:55 Speaker 1: Swizzle sticks aka faculums, vaculum vacuum wrap. My raccoon vaculum off a twenty pound raccoon is as big as a black beard vaculum off a two hundred pound black badger. 01:25:06 Speaker 4: Buddy, you start skinning out a badger and you're like, you. 01:25:08 Speaker 1: Just can't get through it because all the vaculum I had to give up. All right, Joe, you already closed your thoughts. You lost your phone, and Joe likes her phone. 01:25:20 Speaker 7: Kent no nothing to close with, all right, Thanks for listening. Tune in for more. Take care, have a good day,