00:00:00 Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater podcast. We're recording out of Ketchikan, Alaska, along the famed Inside Passage. We're actually specifically recording in what I considered to be my favorite hotel in the United States of America, the Super Eight of ketch Can, Alaska, in which Dan Doty, who's here, we'll get to him in a minute. 00:00:22 Speaker 2: It's actually the worst hotel ever. 00:00:24 Speaker 1: Yeah, I had no idea. I've been staying here for a decade and then Dan Doty and staying here with Dan Doty different rooms for a decade, and he just revealed me that it is least favorite hotel in the whole place. This, however you feel about the Super eight, Ketchcan is a rough, rough town. If you like feeling like you if you like going out and then coming home and feeling like you almost just got your ass kicked, ketch Caan' is a good place to go, I think because the town has walled in, Like if you back up, you're in the mountains. You go forward, you're in the ocean. The road here doesn't connect any hihighway system, and people feel like real uh like they get the feeling a little cooped up and catch a can and they all are like ambush hunters waiting for something new to roll into town to pounce on them. It goes fast. Like one of the guys who worked with MO one time got you know, a woman came up to him to criticize him about how much his rain jacket costs, you know, and that was like she was like nagging him. It was like her way of picking him up would be to go ridicule him. But usually you go to the bar and a guy will come up like he wants to hang out, but in fact he wants to beat you up. Brought to you today by SOG Knives and Tool the company SOD got to start this. This guy is this guy the designer, still the designer now, this guy, Spencer Frasier, was used to build these replica knives of the knives used by the Special Opera Rations Group in Vietnam, like their combat knife, And he started doing that and it slowly built this company out. So he has it's a huge array of tactical knives and tools that are super popular with military and law enforcement personnel. And now they've got like a great line of hunting knives and tools out. I mean, they got everything from hatchets to machetes. Brian Cowen, who's here? How do you say that? 00:02:24 Speaker 3: In Spanish? 00:02:27 Speaker 4: I have a souvenir Meat Eater hunting knife. You don't have. 00:02:34 Speaker 1: It's only there's only two or three of those in exist. 00:02:36 Speaker 3: I have a I was given on the first Yeah. 00:02:38 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have one of those too. I have one of those two, but I have one with the meat Eater logo. You don't have one of those. You know how I know because he gave it to me. You got really sad you were there? 00:02:47 Speaker 5: Okay, obviously you've been in my knife chest. That's interesting because I don't don't remember you ever being in my mind. 00:02:53 Speaker 1: Do something rude you. I should have saved it for ketch a can. Yeah, well I would have done something rude to you in a bar and catch game. 00:03:03 Speaker 5: You whether you don't know whether I went to the offices and the head brass at Meat Eater and they made one specially, you don't know that for sure. 00:03:12 Speaker 3: Excuse me? 00:03:13 Speaker 4: What's the name of the production company? Production company? Yeah, the name of the production Is this a court of law? 00:03:17 Speaker 1: Now? If the place that you would go to if you have machets, fixed blades, folding knives and in my opinion probably the not probably the best and most versatile line of multi tools out there. Definitely the best player ever mounted on a multi tool. And there's a lot of other great innovations they put on these things too mad for me to really get into. But just the one that's interesting is on a sock multi tool you can actually take like just regular household tools and disassemble the thing, you know, using a torque bit or an aland but you can pull it out and then customize the blade configurations to match up with what you want it for. I made mine. I call mine the Super Big Game Deluxe. I haven't pattened to that yet. This awesome also brought to you by the media or TV show. Catch us on Sportsman Channel when we're running new episodes around Thursday's a pm Eastern, but we're all over the network at other times as well, and whenever you want. You can download or stream episodes of meat Eater at Meeater dot VHX dot TV. Go on there, use the code one word me Eater podcast and get five bucks off any volume. 00:04:38 Speaker 2: It's a good deal. 00:04:39 Speaker 1: It is now our special guest here today we have the beautiful and Lovely Brian, the Kid Count, and the wonderful Joe Rogan. If Joe Rogan did not exist, you would not be listening to this podcast right now because Joe Rogan was my inspiration. 00:05:02 Speaker 3: He's a pioneer. 00:05:03 Speaker 1: He's a pioneer in podcasting. Were you doing podcasting before they called it podcasting? 00:05:08 Speaker 4: No, they've been. I think they started calling it podcasting when the iPod was invented. I believe the term was invented by Adam Curry, the guy who is the MTV VJ who has a show now called No Agenda that he does. I'm pretty sure he invented the term podcasting. He might have invented podcasting itself. 00:05:30 Speaker 1: Is he the guy that's now? Is there like a thing? I remember you were involved, like someone was trying to. 00:05:36 Speaker 4: Lawsuit? 00:05:36 Speaker 1: Yeah? 00:05:37 Speaker 4: Did that ever get resolved favorably? It's a podcaster, Yes it did. It's called their patent trolls. They essentially wanted to get a patent. This is the paraphrase version of it that they they had a patent on things put online in a serialized form, which is so ambiguous and vague. But they were patent trolls. They had done this before sued Apple for a lot of money. I think they won several million dollars from Apple. But a company like Apple just says, fuck it, I'll just give you the money to shut your whole. Like it's worth more to give them seven million dollars than it is to get Tim Cook and all these guys to go to court somewhere. 00:06:15 Speaker 1: But they must have I mean, I don't want to get into this. It's you grade detail as I mean, it's interesting to us. But they must have had some kind of argument. 00:06:22 Speaker 4: Doubt. 00:06:22 Speaker 1: Apple just hands out money to anyone who comes up. Like if I came up and said, hey man, my iPod kind of burnt my hand, They're not going to give me seven million dollars. 00:06:30 Speaker 4: I don't know what they had what they had with Apple. I don't know what the lawsuit was based on. But the lawsuit that they were suing Adam Carola and several other podcasters was unbelievably ridiculous. And the judges were you know, they have they go through some before they have the actual trial, They go through some sort of a meeting when they sit down with legal representatives. They explained their case, and you know, the judges reviewed it, so there's nothing here. Was that right? And yeah? 00:07:00 Speaker 1: And then they and then still still done it. 00:07:02 Speaker 4: They still well, I don't know about Apple, this is with Adam Corolla, and they still wanted to press forward. There. What they do essentially is they forced people to spend exhorbitant amounts of money in legal fees. Adam Carolla spent more than half a million dollars fighting this and there was almost no case. But that's the idea. It's like, do you want to spend this or do you want to just pay us twenty bucks a month? And then everybody has to pay twenty bucks a month, so every part, you know, whatever the number is, they choose. So that's how they do it. But they in part of the agreement that they signed when they abandoned the case, they agreed to settle with Adam Kroller and they agreed to not go after any other podcast. Specifically my podcast was listed. There's like a bunch that they listed they will not pursue legal action. So really, yeah, but I would have had to do the same thing. I would have had to spend fuck a loos of money. So I helped Adam Croll raise some money for it. 00:07:55 Speaker 1: That's what I remember seeing that. 00:07:56 Speaker 4: Yeah, the whole thing is ridiculous. 00:07:58 Speaker 1: Also joined by the labbyan lover. You guys know what Jannis used to go by, Janni's long tongue. 00:08:06 Speaker 4: Who tell us from from when he worked at a long tom. 00:08:13 Speaker 1: Do you wish you had told me that story? Because he worked at at what you work at. 00:08:18 Speaker 2: Long tongue Italian restaurant. 00:08:23 Speaker 1: Beaver Creek, Colorado, and then and then got fired from that and had a long illustrious career as a as an elk guide before getting swept up into show business. 00:08:33 Speaker 3: Got good length of bone and. 00:08:37 Speaker 1: Has a labban power ring. 00:08:40 Speaker 4: Mean, look at his power ring. 00:08:43 Speaker 1: His brother wears one too. If they touch him as sparks, it's a Jann just to prove. Just say say if you say we're going across the strait to hunt black tailed deer on that island over there in Laban's. 00:09:00 Speaker 6: Eat, Uh leaders and lead machine pot a wooden scubble, uh, mount steering us and mount i'm ustin black taired deal. Black tailed deer is a tough one. 00:09:16 Speaker 4: We don't have to let you said black tail deer. 00:09:21 Speaker 1: And and joined by. 00:09:24 Speaker 5: It was fake. 00:09:24 Speaker 3: It was a fake language. 00:09:27 Speaker 4: You can't do that. 00:09:29 Speaker 1: Super eight hate and Dan, who's also been on jokes. 00:09:36 Speaker 3: It's been negative about Dan. 00:09:37 Speaker 5: It's been like, uh, this place is terrible and by the way, where we're going, it's going to be really cold and wet and miserable. 00:09:43 Speaker 3: This whole thing. 00:09:43 Speaker 4: So well, judging by that, this is fine. This is fine. If I mean, if this is terrible, then and I put it on a scale and compelled this to the the mountain that we're going to. 00:09:57 Speaker 2: I'm aware I've been a little negative about this, and I'm I don't want to be that way. 00:10:01 Speaker 4: But there's something, there is something first class. You're sitting up there with all the kings and queens and royalty, and we're back there with the peasants code. 00:10:11 Speaker 3: You're a natural. 00:10:12 Speaker 4: Understand I understand where you're coming from. 00:10:15 Speaker 1: Now, there's something hard. 00:10:16 Speaker 2: There is something about this place that just has been here a bunch. We've been here a bunch. It's been four years now, we've been coming. 00:10:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's been kind of more more than suddenly trying to put the put the end to this trip. No, no, no, it's just like he's like, we kind of I think Dan, we've got something online and we've filmed the piss out of that place? 00:10:39 Speaker 4: Is it because it's your not you have your cabin up here? Not this? 00:10:42 Speaker 1: Also? I just love it. I love it because I honestly I feel like it feels really nice weather I wouldn't like as much as I like it. 00:10:49 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're a weirdo like that. 00:10:51 Speaker 1: I love it and not enjoy bad weather. I just love it because there's something about there's just there's something about just like a place that just is probably just gonna kick your ass. 00:11:02 Speaker 4: You like struggle, you know. And it was highlighted in that recent Elk episode that I watched. This is fucking giant beautiful? Am I allowed to swear on your podcast? Okay, we'll make an exception. Are you gonna beep beep it? 00:11:15 Speaker 1: Or this isn't like this isn't like the like a tube. 00:11:19 Speaker 4: Like a TV. You you had this beautiful Elk in your sights and you decided not to shoot it because you wanted to see what else was out there and you felt like it came too easy shoot. I would have shot that. 00:11:33 Speaker 1: I had opposite of you, I had just shot at Elk. What I didn't get into is I had just shot at elk not the Kentucky I had just shot out. 00:11:42 Speaker 4: Whatever, so fucking ended that thing. Right there, ladies and gentlemen, this show is four. I would have sack opposite. I never think like this is too easy. When things come along to eas I go, fucking great, let's wrap this up, get out of here. I love it when things come easy. I don't ever feel like I have to work extra hard. 00:12:05 Speaker 5: For I hope I nailed two deers in the first five minutes tomorrow. 00:12:08 Speaker 4: I hope they line up. I hope both my tags line up where they're both eating grass at the same time, and I get one headshot and take both of them. 00:12:16 Speaker 1: Out right from the tent. 00:12:18 Speaker 4: Just boom, get up in the morning. 00:12:20 Speaker 3: Sh let's go crabbing. 00:12:22 Speaker 4: Boom. Let's eat trimp. 00:12:24 Speaker 3: Let's eat some trimp and crab. 00:12:25 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:12:26 Speaker 4: I don't. 00:12:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you're saying, because I do like I want it to be. I never go somewhere to thinking like, oh I want it to be bad, Like I don't go honey, like like I hope it's really hard and it's bad. I always hope it's good. And there's tons of animals everywhere, but you like to earn it after the fact. 00:12:42 Speaker 2: You're a bit of a monsochist. 00:12:43 Speaker 4: You are a maist. Well, I think what you are is someone who appreciates hard work and effort, and you also appreciate going to places that are difficult to hunt. You like going in to high mountain areas that are difficult to hike. You know, there's there's a lot that you you have an ethic, and I think that ethic it's it's a good thing. It's a good thing that you have this. But you're you're very extreme with your ethics, your morals, your ideals and these things. It's a very romanticized version of it. 00:13:14 Speaker 1: Me. 00:13:15 Speaker 4: I'm looking to kill ship and need it. 00:13:17 Speaker 5: I will say, though, I will say that that that I got more. I had a really good time in Wisconsin, but I got I had a much more satisfying feeling at the end of the Montana trip because of the cold, the discomfort, the tent, the hiking, the pack in that meet. 00:13:37 Speaker 4: Out and you got that idea in the last day and I got. 00:13:41 Speaker 5: Everything felt like a struggle and I didn't really I wasn't too vocal about it. 00:13:44 Speaker 3: I froze my ass off because. 00:13:46 Speaker 5: I hadn't learned how to I couldn't. 00:13:51 Speaker 3: Layer up enough. 00:13:52 Speaker 1: And finally, Ryan Collins, you never brought this up YouTube video. 00:13:56 Speaker 2: You just complained about the cold. 00:13:58 Speaker 4: Oh is that right? 00:13:58 Speaker 5: Okay, well, maybe I'm just a whiner, but I remember being so cold and Ryan told me take a hot water bottle, put it in your botom and your sleeping bag. Changed everything. But for the first two nights I was not sleeping. 00:14:09 Speaker 1: Man. If you put his Mustang an extra warm, no question, he just shot it. Speaking to him, bless his heart, he just shot an elk with his uh, with his his old timing. I mistakenly called it like I always think of everything besides the compound, a stickball, A couple of guys. 00:14:28 Speaker 3: He's a great guy. Sorry he's not here. 00:14:32 Speaker 6: Quick note though, on enjoying hard hunts, I think it's a part of the progression of all hunters. And you might get there one day too. And I know a lot of old guys that would love to every season hunt every single day of the season because they enjoyed the hunt and to sit in there, stand to be cold, to watch birds and all that, and to kill their deer on the last day. That would be their perfect season. 00:14:56 Speaker 1: Yeah. I appreciate it. Tough hunt, and I appreciate you guys coming on again because I you know, I realized this the other day without even really trying to. We're sort of doing be honest. Is there a thing? Is there a Grand Slam version for deer? So people like people aren't familiar with the whole Grand Slam concept, which isn't a difficult concept to understand. All these different animals have like like a Grand Slam type thing. So with turkeys, you would do a grand A Grand Slam for turkeys would be you choot an Eastern turkey, a Ostiola turkey, a Rio grand, and a Miriam's. It's a Grand Slam. Now, then there's the soup. Do you know how these go? 00:15:44 Speaker 2: Super Slam then World. 00:15:46 Speaker 1: Slam Super Slam for turkeys, which I which I like almost accidentally completed up till the end is you add a Goulds turkey and you hunt Goulds in Arizona and in mac most people who do it going down to Mexico, and then you got the World Slam, which is when you step outside of turkeiness, outside of the like, here's the thing. All those turkeys, all those turkeys are the like North American turkey, you know, and geneticists don't even really acknowledge the differences between all these things. But then there's another one, the oscillated, which is a whole different species. It's like the second turkey species is the oscillated, which is down in Yucatan. So you go kill him and you got the turkey world slam. Having done this, when I explain this to some of my friends, they think it's the stupidest thing on the planet, you know. But for sheep, it's like it's doll sheep, stone sheep, rocky mountain, big horn, desert, binghorn is the sheep whatever slam is there a dear one? 00:16:53 Speaker 6: I think. 00:16:53 Speaker 1: So what I'm getting at is you boys, you're getting terribly close. If we have a successful hunt when we cross the strait and go out to the island, then we go for cous Yeah, because then you got like a white tail. So you got a white tail, muleer, white tail. Sick of black tail. I think you gotta do Columbia black tail and maybe a coups deer. 00:17:13 Speaker 4: Yeah, Columbia black tail in my yard. 00:17:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, you'll get that whenever you want. What they think had like again, geneticists kind of like rewrite all this stuff. But now they think that like that that all these things like the Columbia black tail, the sick of black tail, the mule deer all I mean, they're they're listed as one species. A lot of people don't recognize them as subspecies, which is totally bizarre because he's deer out here when you walk up to be stunned how small they are? 00:17:41 Speaker 3: Oh, you mean the ones in Alaska the. 00:17:42 Speaker 1: Sick of black tails are small? Why they so. 00:17:45 Speaker 3: Small they can serve heat better or what? 00:17:47 Speaker 4: No, it's weird. Yeah, the big deer, like the big deer from the north, like the ones in like Saskatchewan. 00:17:56 Speaker 1: Giants el bird. Yeah, that's your big white tails. Bergman's principle. But there's a couple of things about Bergman's rule or Bergman's principle. So, yeah, mammals tend to be larger at the northern extreme of their range in the northern hemisphere, then to be larger because it has the heat dissipation heat retention. But they find that mule deer tend to not adhere to that quite as strictly as white tails do. So you look at a key like a deer, A white tailed deer in the keys very very small, you know, one hundred pounds of these Lucky Florida keys. Yeah. White tail deer in Alberta two hundred and fifty pounds is giants. 00:18:33 Speaker 3: So so is that same. 00:18:35 Speaker 5: The bigger the person, the better they are conserving heat. 00:18:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why a bigger person, bigger person conservative. 00:18:44 Speaker 4: Why is it that those Mexican deer that you see on television all the time, blacktail or white tail, and those and mule deer, they're giant? Are they bringing America? 00:18:55 Speaker 1: Can the white tails from Mexico small? 00:18:57 Speaker 4: Okay, I'm just seeing ones on television shows. 00:19:00 Speaker 1: No, they're like but they're small bodied. And the mule deer down there get big antlers. And that's what I'm saying. Muleier. Some muleier don't conform to that rule quite as strictly as other things do. But what you do find is the mule deer, like what you say, the desert mule deer is gonna have bigger ears, and the ears are great for heat retention dissipation. Like you look at the wooly mammoth. Wooly mammoth like a big elephant, right, little shit in ears, like barely any ear on that thing. The Africa's he's a cold climate elephant. You look at the African elephant, I mean giant ears for that. Another place animals lose a lot of heat is inside of their legs, so you always know the hairs thin there. You can stand up to dissipate heat, lay down to collect to retain heat. 00:19:41 Speaker 4: Huh. 00:19:41 Speaker 1: But yet another principle plays in. It's like sick of black tails are a coastal and often predominantly the island critter, and for whatever reason, mammals on islands tend to tend toward dwarf ism, reptails on islands tend toward gargantuanism. 00:19:59 Speaker 4: Well then what what happens with those giant bears? 00:20:02 Speaker 1: The Kodiak bear, Yeah, that's an exception for sure, except. 00:20:06 Speaker 5: He just had so much access to to salmon, I would imagine, yeah, me, whereas a highland bear like brown bears, and you know, the mountainous regions are like six hundred pounds to live on barries and stuff. That's what I heard. 00:20:17 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the grizzlies that you get in the fire North are small. Yeah, there's exceptions all over place. Anyways, he's just some dinky ass deers. 00:20:25 Speaker 4: Like, what's a big one? What's a big sick of black tail? One hundred pounds. 00:20:30 Speaker 1: Bigger than that? 00:20:31 Speaker 2: You? 00:20:31 Speaker 1: I don't think you'll get it. I don't think a big box going one hundred fifty pounds. 00:20:35 Speaker 4: Wow. 00:20:35 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of them weigh Like I said, man, they're like sub one hundred pounds. You walk up and you're like, wow, that's not what I thought I was looking at. Oh right, right, But you know, but it's like in the antlers are you have to They're just not as big as white tails. It's like, imagine that like the only let's say, the only woman dudes knew about was like Pamela Anderson, like the white tails years to pant like the Pamela Anderson deer. You know, it's just like souped up and a lot of work been done on it. It's just like this thing, you know, and they get and you look at the cover magazines, you look at these giants on farms. So when you go out, if everyone knew that woman and only that woman, they're gonna have a harder time appreciating someone of a more subtle, refined beauty. 00:21:25 Speaker 5: Because the the the deer you're talking about, what you see on the cover of those hunting magazines are corn fed. 00:21:29 Speaker 1: Basically, they're more than that, man, they're injected even you know, like magazines like I've talked, I don't want a name in the magazine. I got friends, worked, and I right there now and then. But in the fall, they always put a big giant buck on the cover of the magazine. And the magazine has a has a editorial standpoint standpoint where they're not four fence hunting, so they don't like cover fence hunting in the magazine, don't write about fence hunting in the magazine. But all their bucks got names, man, you know, I mean they got bucks that just the bucks on the cover of the magazine are just farm bucks. It's like buck you're not going to see in the wild. It's like Larry the Buck. You know, it won't say that. It was like a Pennsylvania giant, you know. And the photographer took them an hour to try to get a shot where it wasn't like a. 00:22:11 Speaker 5: Why why are the wolves in Yellowstone? And I don't know if these are doctored photographs? 00:22:17 Speaker 4: Sorry? 00:22:18 Speaker 5: Why are they so welcome? 00:22:20 Speaker 1: To the podcast. 00:22:22 Speaker 3: Sorry, Brian, back back. 00:22:26 Speaker 5: Why are the wolves and Yellowstone so so giant, like these guys who've shot them and they're holding them up and they're literally bigger than by farther person. Is that because they have so much access to elk and they're just. 00:22:37 Speaker 1: Killing I think they're big, well fed. There's there's conspiracy theories that many, like the Forest Service somehow wanted to really stick it to really screw over Montans and whelming people, and so they're like, well, I know what I'll do to them. I'll go get super wools, which is what they call them. I'll go get super wolves from elsewhere Canada and bring them down and let them go. And these wolves are way bigger than the wolves that were here at the time of European contact, and that'll show them and they'll know not I don't really know what they're like if they're trying to stick it to them, I don't know what they're sticking it to them about. But that's one theory. Is that Another thing would be that they right now are expanding their range. They have in many areas low like low competition with other wolves because they're still in an expansion phase, like the energy moves outward, you know, to new territory, and there's a lot to eat and they're healthy. 00:23:44 Speaker 5: How much does weigh? How much is a big timber wolf? 00:23:47 Speaker 1: What they can weigh? A couple hundred pounds? But people say that that's like one of those numbers we've thought this was before. There's certain numbers that always get thrown around, like you know, you know, like mountain lion. Yeah, yeah, all that stuff, and so like the wolves are that big, but I mean they're giants. They're giants, they're huge. 00:24:03 Speaker 6: We did hear that story from a fairly credible source about the guy that knew the trapper that supposedly trapped live trapped some of these wolves from the first introduction. 00:24:12 Speaker 1: The ninety seven introduction or whatever, Yeah. 00:24:14 Speaker 6: Yeah, into Yellowstone, and that he had trapped like sixteen or seventeen wolves and he had them and he picked like hand picked the biggest, baddest, meanest wolves, like the wolves that all the rest of the wolves in the pens were like like scared of and coward. He's like those stupid bastards down the states, Let's send in these three. 00:24:34 Speaker 1: He's like, you want wolves? Do you hear wolves? I don't know what you're thinking. 00:24:39 Speaker 4: Here, you go. It seems like a crazy idea. It seems like a crazy idea that's kind of backfiring in a lot of places. 00:24:45 Speaker 1: I don't know, man. Yeah, the numbers are high, really high. Right, Well, they got they start. They feel like they maybe when the hunts were running, you know, they felt like they turned the corner in Montana a little bit. I know, my brother was just and you know, the one that just lost the significant portion of elk to bears. He was up and saw seven of them. You know, I mean nothing. I mean that's like totally anecdotal, but they're out. Like it's funny because the area, the area we hunt elk in me past as him. Still, we started hunting elk in this area, hunt there for ten years. We started hunting elk there in ninety six. So it's for the wolf thing hit that elk herd that we've hunted has been greatly reduced. You know, it's like the elk numbers have declined in that specific herd. They had declined by you know, fifty percent. 00:25:37 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:25:38 Speaker 1: But my brother kills an elk every year. His success rate has maintained, has gone the same and I think it's like elk go down, but his knowledge level of the area, you know, has kept pace. He's sort of made up for it now. I can only imagine because before wolves came in, this is like, this sounds totally just like one guy's experience. It's by other people say this too. When wolves came in hard, we're kind of like ladies and gentlemen. We're kind of talking about what they call the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, or the area around Yellowstone where the wolves are now wombing Idaho, Montana. But when those wolves came in and really start hammering those elk, the elk got paranoid in a way that they weren't before. You know. I think they just got like a mentality of just being like hunted all the time. 00:26:29 Speaker 4: You know. 00:26:30 Speaker 1: So it used to it felt for a while like when you went on an opening day and that they hadn't been harassed by hunters. They were just relaxed in the way, and they were in vulnerable locations. And I think that and many people agree with this, that that hurt has adjusted its behavior so much it'll eventually have to adjust its behavior a lot in order to learn how to cope with the new threat. But think of it in the reverse. If you think about taking a drive for the Yellstone National Park, you're going to Yellowstone now, and the elk and Yellowstone are scared shitless of wolves. They're scared shitless of grizzlies. What they don't care about are human beings. Okay, so you'll have elk feeding ten twenty thirty feet from your car, oblivious to your presence. Not oblivious. They know you're there, they just don't care. 00:27:17 Speaker 4: Right. 00:27:18 Speaker 1: Yellowstone has them been actively hunted for over one hundred years. Okay, so on that chunk of property, they have ruled out humans as being something to be worried about. So when they're out they can go feed in the area where maybe they're safe from wolves or safer from wolves, where they can see around or whatever. But also at the same time they don't have to worry all about their proximity to people. If all of a sudden tomorrow you start saying that, you know, I'm gonna let a handful of hunters every year come into Yellstone National Park and just start taking potshots at these elk, someone would come in and stay like these elk are stupid. They just stand there and let you shoot them. But it'll be yeah, because they haven't adjusted to the threat yet, you know, right, And so with wolves they will eventually, hopefully they will reach some kind of like technological stalemate with the wolves where they seem like a little bit better to withstand the kind of pressure. One hope is that's starting to happen at the same time. You know, I'm an advocate of continuing to whittle down the wolf numbers, just managing like you would anything else, you know. 00:28:28 Speaker 3: Just because they're still devastating, not so. 00:28:31 Speaker 1: Much because it's so devastating because they're renewable resource, you know, are they like they're renewable resource. There's hunter interest in them. It's been proven by most people who don't have a political as to grind believe that we can maintain a harvest on wolves without destroying the resource or damaging the resource, like you maintain a viable population of them, the same way we try to maintain a viable population of mountain lions. Viable population of black bears. 00:28:58 Speaker 5: We rebuilt on line are so incredibly plentiful in Utah, for example, that when you get your fishing license, it comes automatically with a mountain lion tag? 00:29:07 Speaker 1: Is that true? 00:29:08 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's so. I was amazed at that. When you apply for a fishing license, look. 00:29:12 Speaker 1: It up whether you have a hunt license or not. 00:29:14 Speaker 5: When you apply for a fishing license, you get an automatic tag for a for a mountain lion license. 00:29:19 Speaker 3: I was amazed. 00:29:20 Speaker 1: What do you think of that? 00:29:22 Speaker 6: California? 00:29:23 Speaker 1: No, no, Utah hunt lines of California, Utah thought? 00:29:26 Speaker 4: While one just attacked a kid in Silicon Valley? Do you hear about that? Cooper Tino. Six year old kid got attacked by a mountain lion. His father had a fucking scream and yelled the mountainline to get it off the kid. The cops did. Cops found the mountain line, killed it. They got the DNA from the kid's jacket. So when they shot the mountain line they did, they knew they had the right one. 00:29:47 Speaker 5: In Colorado, six year old was walking between her family or parents, and mountain liin just came down, took her. 00:29:53 Speaker 1: Took her off, not dead though, no kill her. 00:29:57 Speaker 4: Took her off. Yeah. I'm not a big fan of When was that four or five years old? Okay, I'm not a big fan of casts. 00:30:03 Speaker 3: That's a terrible tragedy. I mean, that's like, what in the world. 00:30:06 Speaker 4: I don't know. 00:30:07 Speaker 1: I mean, is it worse than a car? 00:30:08 Speaker 5: I mean well, I mean in all respect, no, I mean it's so rare, like how many how many people have really been killed by bound lines? 00:30:15 Speaker 1: One every twenty years? Man, Yeah, it's that's why I can't That's why. That's why it's No, it's like what there's like one mountain lion fatality every twenty years. 00:30:24 Speaker 4: So rare. 00:30:24 Speaker 3: Man, it's so rare. 00:30:27 Speaker 1: You know. What I heard recently was the number of years I was saying, did you see this the last time a bow hunter was killed by a grit? Like as much as both, Like, when you're hunting bow hunting for elk, you're cow calling, you're making you're mimicking the sound of a cow out hit it, you honest, hit a nice cow call. 00:30:45 Speaker 4: Yeah. 00:30:46 Speaker 1: Yeah. Grizzlies hear that. Yeah, they hear that, and they hunt the sound. So bow hunters are frequently, like just in my own extended circle, like friends of friends, every there's like guys that are calling in grizzlies while trying to call out Not I couldn't believe this. Not a bowl hunter's been killed in the Rocky Mountains at least twenty five years by grizzlies. 00:31:14 Speaker 6: Yeah, I forget what it was. Someone wrote a statement saying that it was happening Chuck Adams. 00:31:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, all due respect to Chuck Adams. I mean he's like a like a great hunter, has been writing a lot more about a lot more stuff than I ever have in my life. Uh, when it comes to hunting. Made the mistake of saying, like how sometimes bowl hunters do get killed or unfortunately they do get killed, and then someone did the research said no, in fact, they don't. There's no record of a ballner. 00:31:42 Speaker 6: I think it's been long from. 00:31:43 Speaker 1: Yeah, Ben long from back huntry hunters and anglers was the one that wound up saying that, no, it doesn't have but anyways, yeah, once every twenty years. I think it's once every twenty years. Kids are more vulnerable, the kids and ladies, joggers particularly. I think you look like something the lion wants to snack on. 00:31:58 Speaker 4: It looks like something's running away too, Probably something scared. 00:32:01 Speaker 3: Not the way I run. 00:32:02 Speaker 1: I've seen bought to. 00:32:06 Speaker 6: Fishing licenses and I didn't see that on my fishing license. 00:32:09 Speaker 3: Look it up. I was just told that by my father. 00:32:12 Speaker 1: Does I mean there's like a handful of reasons why that wouldn't be right. 00:32:15 Speaker 4: It doesn't seem to make sense. 00:32:17 Speaker 5: You don't, Now, I'm curious. My father told me that my father did. He just got he just gotta. He lives in Utah and he and he got a fishing license and he said that you get an automatic tag from you. 00:32:28 Speaker 1: I think I think he maybe got fishing line. Yeah, we're talking about something that we're not able to resolve, which is like one of the. 00:32:37 Speaker 4: Right. 00:32:37 Speaker 1: So what he probably got is they probably sent him because they had his name and everything, they probably maybe sent him a lion application of permit application. Regardless, I've seen three lions. He used to seem like a lot, and I feel like it's only three lions. Jay Scott, who Janice guided for it for a long time. Colbert and Scott Outfitters, they guide what they got. Elk Arizona, the guy. 00:33:01 Speaker 2: In Mexico, Colorado, Muleier, Colorado. 00:33:04 Speaker 1: Mulder. I said to Jaz said, hey, many how many lines you've seen? And he spends a lot of time behind his binoculars. He said, I'm looking for number thirty five, right, now whoa hunt. 00:33:17 Speaker 4: He's seen. 00:33:17 Speaker 1: He's glassed up thirty five lions hunt, but he. 00:33:21 Speaker 6: Does live behind his binoculars for a great of the year. 00:33:25 Speaker 5: The guy who was I think the head of the fishing game or Wildlife Service or whatever, I remember he had to step down. He was in California, yep. And he hunted him outain line very legally. 00:33:36 Speaker 1: In another state. 00:33:37 Speaker 5: Yeah, And and they flipped out on him. 00:33:39 Speaker 1: You can't hunt lines of coat. 00:33:40 Speaker 5: While people were like, listen, the the amount of money that the parks make on hunting licenses and stuff, that's what supports you know, the habitat and to maintain the maintenance of the habitat attata and all the other things. 00:33:54 Speaker 4: Well, that's a real problem with California, right. It's ideologically driven. It doesn't really have anything to do with matching wildlife. 00:33:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, they have like California actually have some like outsfolks anti hunting people who were on their you know, fishing Wildlife Commission. 00:34:09 Speaker 4: It's hilarious. 00:34:09 Speaker 1: Usually called fishing game, and there's a lot of states where it's not fishing game, but California was fishing game in California just became not fishing game. They became like fishing wildlife to sort of disassociate with the term game, which is sort of like objectification of animals. I feel bad for people in California. They get hammered all the time. Like it was first that you can't hunt lions with a dog, then you can't hunt lions at all. Now it is a big thing to have, like no dog hunting whatsoever, like no dog hunting mammals or something of anything. 00:34:38 Speaker 4: They still have bear hunting, but they don't have bear with dogs. And so I just got rid of that. When we were at the Hone ranch, they were saying, it's pointless to hunt bears without dogs. You can't bait, you can't use dogs. Then you can't find bears. 00:34:50 Speaker 1: Like in that area'd be tough, man, it'd be tough other states like Montana, you can't run bears with a dog, you can't bait for bears. But it's still but the topography warrants itself to spot and start bear hunting, which is really good, you know. And if it's like like Maine, is November very likely through the Humane Society, Maine will very likely November vote down bear baiting. Okay, pushed entirely funded entirely by Humane Society. But they put it to a referendum. They had it up before and it lost by a few points. It's coming back up now. A lot of people think that it'll pass and they'll like do a baiting ban on bears and Maine, but Maine's largely flat, heavily vegetated. To ban baiting for bears is essentially to ban bear hunting, and they know this, you know, And so that's how people like go after hunting stuff is they try to like isolate out little like what they consider fringe activities. Because I was reading his poll on time. They did this poll in Arizona saying to people, do you support a person's right to hunt? 00:35:50 Speaker 4: You know? 00:35:50 Speaker 1: And you wind up getting this whatever it is, I can't remember exactly what seventy six percent of the population is. Like, Yes, you do the same poll and ask people specific questions and it starts going down, down, down and out, like do you support someone's right to hunt? 00:36:05 Speaker 4: Blank? 00:36:06 Speaker 1: And it drops. So it's like they like the idea of it, but the specificity of. 00:36:11 Speaker 5: It, especially things like baiting. You know, whatever it is, it feels like it's trophy. It feels like you're not. Really there's no skill involved. That's what it feels like, right, So if you say we're going to bait the bear in and shoot it, it feels like target. 00:36:25 Speaker 4: Well, most people are against hunting bears at all. I would imagine if you just put an online poll on Facebook saying how many people are pro bear hunting, it would be a giant number would be against it. 00:36:37 Speaker 1: When I first proposed it to you, I remember you were really uneasy about the idea. Yeah, but you wanted something was gonna be good to eat. 00:36:43 Speaker 4: Yeah, I wanted to hunt deer. The first time I wanted a hunt, I was like, man, bear, I don't know about all that. But having shot a bear now and eating a bear, they're great to eat. Yeah, they taste good. They mean they taste good. It's not like you have to convince yourself. And I had to argue with people online that were giving me a hard time that were actually hunters, that were telling me you can't tell me bear is good to eat. It's ridiculous. You know, I've been hunting my whole life. You know, everyone I know says bear tastes off. I'm like, you're crazy, you know, I've eaten it. I'm telling you from the flesh in my mouth chewing it down. It tastes good, doesn't taste bad at all. That there's good depends upon. 00:37:26 Speaker 6: Just because someone is a great hunter does not make them a good cook of wild game. 00:37:31 Speaker 4: True too, right, But it's also people have attitudes about certain animals where they just discard the meat. You know, there's some people that have no part. When we were in camp, we were in Honty camp, there's this one guy that was with us who would not eat the bear meat. He just wouldn't eat the beer. He shot a big ass seven foot bear. 00:37:49 Speaker 5: That might also because like there's always been a history of you know, certain things you don't eat, right, So so mountain lion or a bear especially. 00:37:59 Speaker 4: Apparently tastes really good. 00:38:00 Speaker 2: It's really good. 00:38:01 Speaker 1: It is good. 00:38:02 Speaker 3: Mountain is good. 00:38:02 Speaker 1: It's really like pork, really white flesh, white flesh. 00:38:07 Speaker 2: I ate some mountain lion burgers once, and then that night I had a dream that a mountain lion was eating me. Is that true? 00:38:14 Speaker 5: Mountain lion bird? 00:38:15 Speaker 4: That's dark? 00:38:16 Speaker 1: It was laced with the aahwascar For. 00:38:18 Speaker 5: Some reason, I would imagine though animal. 00:38:24 Speaker 4: Roof. My wife said, I smelled different when I came home, I've been eaten bear. She actually saw that you smelled different. She said, I smelled like a killer. 00:38:35 Speaker 1: First time she ever smelled a man. 00:38:37 Speaker 4: She said it was weird because you smell like like threatening. Really yeah, because he was like, I wonder, I wonder if, like, if you need predators. 00:38:46 Speaker 3: Do it do a grizzly thing. 00:38:49 Speaker 4: Incredible. 00:38:52 Speaker 5: It's the greatest bear bear call I've ever heard. 00:38:55 Speaker 1: My man, I know you're making I just want to add real quick about that whole smell thing. 00:38:59 Speaker 4: My man. 00:39:00 Speaker 1: I was a kid, had a friend who during during deer season would only eat like leafy greens and carrots and stuff. 00:39:07 Speaker 4: Yeah, that makes sense. Your breath. 00:39:11 Speaker 1: He really felt that. 00:39:12 Speaker 4: You know, well, I've seen on hunting shows guys eat spruce tree needles. They chew the because your breath. Apparently that's that's the thing that the animals really smell. 00:39:23 Speaker 1: That was one of the big things about all the charcoal infused clothing and like sand control of clothing. Wow, you put it all on. But people say, but dude, your whole your whole like smell factory. Man, this is you exhaling. I think they probably. 00:39:39 Speaker 5: Something smell people's breath from like five hundred yards away. 00:39:44 Speaker 4: Tim Burnett said that he was hunting once and I think he said two hundred yards. He said he was down wind to two hundred yards and he saw an animal go like that. He knew the animal winded him and he ran off. 00:39:55 Speaker 1: Dude, absolutely, absolutely, that's nothing. 00:39:58 Speaker 4: Two hundred yards nothing, that's incredible. It is incredible to animals. Yes, the wind came from him to the animal two hundred yards away. He might have said three. I think you might have said yeah, but he was like, I can't believe that thing can. 00:40:14 Speaker 3: Smell that smell particles would travel that quickly. 00:40:18 Speaker 4: Well. Tim was also talking about some new product. It's like a nose blocker or nose jammer, scent jammer. It's called you've heard of that. It does something confuses the hell out of the deer. Like he used it on you, put it on you, and like that. You could see the deer like going like what is that? The deer was like putting its nose up in the air but stayed there, didn't run off, but it was like what is this? Like it was just confusing it. I think it's called bomb no no, no, So I think it's called scent Jammer. Yeah. 00:41:00 Speaker 5: Call me the buck Bomb. They call me the buck Bomb, they called me the fucker. The kid, game Kid yep, game id Killer, yep. 00:41:10 Speaker 4: The casual beer killer is the best. He was wearing casual beer. Yep. 00:41:16 Speaker 2: Did you bring some this time? 00:41:17 Speaker 4: Yeah? Brought. 00:41:18 Speaker 3: I got two pieces of cashmere. 00:41:20 Speaker 1: Would you bring your scarf? 00:41:21 Speaker 4: I brought a beautiful. 00:41:23 Speaker 5: Lightweight cashmere sweater James purse and uh and then a lovely V neck, a lovely hunter green V neck by James James. J Crew really brings out my bring brings out my James Crew. It's the higher level of j Crew. It brings out my autumn brown eyes. So you'll have a good time, all right. 00:41:44 Speaker 1: So I feel like we're like on a tangent. 00:41:47 Speaker 4: On the tangent we were what podcasts were all. Yeah, I don't know, but I was credit. I was interested in the main line eating bear the first bear firste Yeah. And the guy that did eat the bear yeah yeah. Well this guy he shot two of them, didn't need any of it. 00:42:05 Speaker 1: I wonder when people are uneasy with bear hunting. I think there's the charismatic MegaFon a thing at play where I mean, there's charas right, they're like they stand up on their back feet or the writer Jim Harrison wrote, I can't remember which one was books, but he saw a guy, a guy had skinned out a bear and he had a hanging and he commented that it just looked like a dude hanging there. It looked like a skinned out dude hanging there, and he didn't want anything to do with it, you know. So I think there's that, and then there's also probably just the legacy that the bear hunters have kind of created for themselves about all that the meat is no good or I don't want to eat the meat. That certainly doesn't help the case. 00:42:47 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's pretty prevalent. I was amazed at how much backlash I got online, not just from non hunters, which I expected, but from hunters who said, you know, hunters wouldn't hunt, predators didn't hunt, and said, you know, it's ridiculous that you hunt bear because you don't even eat it, And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm smoking at bear ham right now. 00:43:08 Speaker 1: There's a reasonbitz on opportunities, man. I think when people say that, oftentimes what they're really saying is because of my personal situation how I was brought up where I live. I don't hunt bears. I told this story one hundred times where I was sitting. I know this guy in South Carolina that has a deer blind. He calls the condo okay, And he built a heated structure with windows all the way around it, and he has office chairs in it and lead sleds set up in it. And this is his hunting blind, in a bunk bed, in a microwave. All this stuff is in his hunting blind, and radiating out from the condo are shooting lanes that he's got planted in clover and lfl for the runout like spokes of a wheel. Okay, so he can sit up there and rove around in a rolling off his chair. 00:43:58 Speaker 3: I mean that's like here is just farm. 00:44:00 Speaker 1: Well, he said, she does where you live, and you know you would have the best time over there hunting in this thing. But anyways, I'm up in this thing with him and we're waiting for deer to come out, and I'm telling him how I'm gonna go out to hunt dry ground lions, which means not gonna go out with a friend who runs lions with hounds in the desert, and it's much more difficult to run lions in the snow because one thing the dogs can't tell is what way the lion went. So when you have snow, you can at least deduce the direction of the lion's travel. If the dogs lose the track, you can pick the track back up again because it's there in the snow, and you can tell a lot about the antiquity of the track, the age of the track, just based on when the snow fell, what it looks like like. Snow holds tracks in different ways than our stuff. Hunt them in the desert. Your dogs might be running a line you're just never gonna see a track from, you know. And then part of the skill is just being able to read sign find the track, judge from the dog's behavior whether they think the track's hot or not hot, all these things playing to it's the most difficulty I've ever been involved with hunt, or one of the most difficult things I've ever been involved with hunting. It I'm telling him how I want to go do this, and he's up in his rolling office chair and the condo turns me. It's like, I just don't see the challenge and something like that. 00:45:26 Speaker 4: So it's like. 00:45:29 Speaker 1: People like when they're like, oh, I don't hunt bears, It's like, you know why you don't humt bearers, dude, because your dad probably didn't hunt bears. You probably don't live in a bear hunting. 00:45:35 Speaker 4: Area, right you. Or if you did get a hold of some bear meat, somebody cooked it poorly. 00:45:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like you build up. It's like you build up what you do and don't do based on a bunch of things, and after a while, a bunch of arbitrary things, and after a while, I think it starts to feel like a code of ethics to you, when in fact it's just like you just do what you were brought up doing. 00:45:57 Speaker 5: Then there is a difference, though, I mean, I think that when you when you see somebody and you walk in and you say, I'm a trophy hunter, and they have no one says that no, no. But I'm just saying that that in people's minds. I think when you hunt deer, I notice. I just notice that when you hunt deer, they go people go, well, dear, you're obviously hunting it for the meat. It's a little bit like a cow. It's like a forest cow, whereas I call them forest cows when you hunt. 00:46:26 Speaker 3: When you go kill an elephant. 00:46:27 Speaker 5: Let's just take the extreme, a noble animal like an elephant, or we we always put those kind of words on that kind of thing, a pachyderm. They got family structures and stuff viscerally for people like their kids. Yeah, man, so viscerally there's a very different field, you know, lions, those kinds of things. There's a very different reaction. And I think it's it's primarily a positive one in terms of the fact that I think people just go, you're doing that. You're killing this noble, beautiful animal for your own sort of either ego or because you want its head on your wall. And I think that that's where people kind of and I think that's a very human thing. 00:47:07 Speaker 4: You know what's really ironic. The same guy who wouldn't eat the bear told me the most delicious meat he ever had was elephant. 00:47:15 Speaker 1: Wow, he is the contrarian man. 00:47:18 Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, no, he's a very nice guy. It wasn't a contrary and at all. He just was saying, like he went elephant hunting and they knew the exact spot to cut out a steak and it was like from inside the arm, like inside the leg. And he said, I am telling you it was delicious. It's delicious meat. And I was like, wow. I would have never First of all, I knew that the villagers ate the meat, but I would never assume. 00:47:43 Speaker 1: That it was so good that like they cook it for the client. 00:47:47 Speaker 4: Yeah, especially a guy who won't even eat a bear. 00:47:50 Speaker 5: Or were elephants hunted by like in that area of Africa? I wonder, I don't know, difficult bring. 00:47:58 Speaker 1: The kill like you know they like historically they would kill drafts, those poisoned darts. Yeah, the fifties. Yeah, this old dude from the fifties where they hit a draft of the poison dart. 00:48:09 Speaker 4: I don't know. 00:48:10 Speaker 1: I can't remember how many. They followed for three or four days till finally starts vomiting and then dies and they chop it up. 00:48:15 Speaker 4: Have you ever seen that video? There's an old school bow hunter. It wasn't Fred Bear, but it was one of those guys like that. Who was some of you know, like Tom Moranda type adventure bowhunter from like the nineteen forties or whatever. It was. 00:48:27 Speaker 1: It's like black and white lahab, But who's that dude, you know who you know? The guy he uh it was his name, like shot the killed the elp phone with the long bow man. 00:48:38 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, he shot an elphie. I mean he's young. 00:48:42 Speaker 1: It was it was either Pope, it was sax and Pope or are young? Was it one of those guys? 00:48:46 Speaker 4: Do not remember that with a bow? Dude, not only did you kill an elphone in a bow, but he stuck that thing full of arrows. I mean he had to shoot it a bunch of times. He's pulling a boat. It's a bowbo like, not like a compound bow from a Yeah. Yeah, it was a regular bow and the guy just kept shooting it and the elephants like And it was a screwy video because it was very clear that the sound in the video was not the actual sound of the encounter. They had added it in in post like a movie shop would. 00:49:18 Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a there's a video of Massai warriors throwing like five or six of them just throwing these you know, I don't know if you know Massi the Bantu Massie from from Kenya tall yeah sixty six. We were, and they traditionally used to live essentially total carnivores. They live on about seven quarts of high fat milk a day, and they would tap the vein of their cattle and drink the blood and that was primarily their diet, and then they would eat meat when they could afford it. And you see these massi, five or six of them, with those long spears throwing them into a male lion. Really, oh dude, they're just coming up and going running woom. And that line just basically has five long. 00:50:02 Speaker 3: Spears in it. It starts to bucket, it just dies. And lion lion in that. 00:50:08 Speaker 5: Part of Africa are very aware of humans. They will run away from you. They do not they even when they hunt lion on horseback, lions give chase. 00:50:16 Speaker 4: They don't. We We've talked about this many times on other podcasts. It's the hunting in Africa controversy. And I really liked that piece that you wrote about about hunting in Africa, like this whole thing about what this controversy involving this young girl who's going there, and that you were, you know, essentially saying that a lot of the differences the way people were approaching her, it's sexist. If it was a man, that it was that was doing the same thing. There would be some blowback, but not as much he would there were. 00:50:51 Speaker 1: If some dude, you know, some guy like worked at the phone company his whole life and say something goes to Africa and shot a couple el elf and a leopard and put up on his Facebook page, you would have got zero visits or a lot. 00:51:07 Speaker 4: No one would have cared very little, very. 00:51:11 Speaker 6: Like you were saying, how they kind of attacked the little you know, pieces of oh yeah. 00:51:16 Speaker 4: History. It's a beautiful girl from Texas who's a cheerleader and she wants to be she wants to be Steve Renella. She wants to be a female version of Steve Renella. So she's trying to like be a part of the hunting you know, professional hunting community. 00:51:30 Speaker 3: So that is rare because women have traditionally never been hunters. 00:51:33 Speaker 1: Men have right, well, I point out, except for they think that there was very low sexual dimorphism in Neanderthals, and they think that maybe Neanderthal women hunt right along everybody starts. 00:51:43 Speaker 4: While they died off, nobody wants to. They had a way built like you, they had a way longer run than we'll have you think. 00:51:56 Speaker 1: They were in Europe five hundred thousand years before we were. 00:52:00 Speaker 4: Yeah, but we'll be here for millions of years. No, we won't, I predict you want to bet. Really, I'd rather be there to collect the world's only six thousand years olds. I don't know what the hell you're talking about. 00:52:12 Speaker 3: Correct. 00:52:13 Speaker 4: But one of the things that I find disturbing about the whole Africa thing is, uh, there's a lot of these, like these bow hunting shows. These people go over there to collect like I'm gonna get one of these and one of those, and they're doing it, and these high fence joints, and it's it's just it's weird. Man. 00:52:33 Speaker 1: In Africa, Yeah, South Africa. When someone goes to South Africa, they're hunting. Like say, like, if you go to South Africa, you're hunting fence property. It's just like if you go to New Zealand and shoot a large red deer, you shot it on fence ground, you know, like these three hundred inches red deer to come out on New Zealand, buddy. 00:52:52 Speaker 4: But here, but hold on, here's the important part. Those animals were literally on the verge of extinction before these high fence operations came into play. So it's such as twenty two. On one hand, you see, well, it's a renewable resource and now these animals are actually very plentiful and they're no longer worried about extinct being extinct. But on the other hand, during a yard, it's essentially a yard. It maybe it's ten thousand acres, but it's a ten thousand acre fenced in yard. 00:53:19 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, that was always the argument. 00:53:21 Speaker 5: If you want to save the animals, make it profitable to hunt them, you know, the best the argument for Texas, But the biggest uh, the biggest threat that was more habitat. 00:53:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's habitat. But it definitely pays to have hunt. It definitely pays to have hunter interest. I mean, if you look at like you look at all these things that have you know, you got these organizations National Wild Turkey Federation, Rocky Mountain out Foundation, Ducks Unlimited, Trot Unlimited. These are things that these are powerful political organizations or have political impact. They have a lot of money, and they're based around people's love of hunting for or fishing for these species. And it winds up being that like you can't really get away with messing with these animals because these people are gonna come after you and make your life help you know, if you're gonna destroy habitat or whatever. So it does not on the individual sense. Like on an individual sens it's like you just got shot. That sucks. But I don't think about animals and the individual sense. I think a mind like a population level kind of thing. And if you are concerned about the long term viability of a population of animals in this country and apparently in many countries in Africa and certainly in Canada, it pays if people want to kill you. It's like advantageous if people have If people are motivated through desires for trophies, meet whatever to hunt for you, you have you have more political clout as a species exact. 00:54:52 Speaker 4: People do worry about the populations of elephants, right, even rhinos. But if you want to shoot an elephant, you can pay. I think it's like thirty thousand dollars and you can shoot a fucking an elephant. I mean, I watched his show, and this is where it was really really bothered me because they were calling it a bow hunt. So this guy gets out there, he sticks this bow. I mean he sticks an arrow into this elephant. The elephant charges him, and then the guide blows one through the elephant's brain, and the elephants down. The arrow hit look fatal probably eventually, maybe it's hard to tell. 00:55:28 Speaker 1: You don't think it would have bled out, or it might have led out. 00:55:30 Speaker 4: I don't think the guy was pulling a hard enough bow. I mean, I think you know, if you're gonna kill an elephant, you got a lot of animal. 00:55:38 Speaker 3: How much they weighed ten thousand pounds something crazy? 00:55:41 Speaker 4: It was an enormous elephant though they weigh about ten thousand pounds, So the guy's only about thirty yards away. He hits the elephant with the arrow. The elephant recognizes immediately that this guy with the bow is the one who shot him, starts running towards him, and the guide boom blows the elephant through the brain, and then there's congratulating him on his kill, and I'm like, what what? What is this? This is weird. 00:56:07 Speaker 5: I think that the alternative if you don't make hunting profitable, then what happens with people are anti hunting. The alternative is what to enforce a bannon hunting with laws That doesn't work well? 00:56:22 Speaker 4: But you have massive poaching problems. Yeah, but look at it this way. How many people are going to donate thirty thousand dollars to keep an elephant populations healthy? Exactly? If it is it even one? I mean, how many people? Maybe you have to run some kind of drive good luck. Yeah, you're not going to have you too. 00:56:41 Speaker 1: What's his name? 00:56:42 Speaker 4: He will? But you're right. 00:56:44 Speaker 3: I mean that's a very good point. 00:56:46 Speaker 4: It's a very good point because there's no other way to generate that amount of money. I mean, think about how many people get hunting tags. I mean, how many people get whitel deer tags? 00:56:58 Speaker 5: Exactly what you were saying about California's ideological and I think any kind of ideology, you know, that's the enemy. That's where, that's where rationality and figuring out what's best for the animal. 00:57:09 Speaker 3: Actually, you know, it's interesting, but. 00:57:12 Speaker 4: It's even to someone like me who enjoys hunting, it's disturbing. I don't like it. I don't like seeing it. I don't like it. I don't like the idea behind it. I don't like seeing these sloppy, goofy fucks just hop on planes and go shoot these animals in someone's yard. It just seems weird to me. The whole thing seems off. It doesn't seem legit. You know, there's some like, WHI look, there's nothing wrong with farming. I enjoy a nice steak. I don't think there's anything wrong with farming. But when you take these wild animals and you're pretending that you're hunting, but really you're kind of doing some pseudo farming type thing, that's really what's going on. It's like you're shooting fish in a barrel, literally literally shooting fish in a barrel. That's really what you're doing. Who was it? 00:57:57 Speaker 1: I feel like you cracked me when I mentioned this before. But was it Jesse Helms or someone who's like, I know, I can't tell you what pornography is, but no, that was. 00:58:08 Speaker 3: A Supreme Justice that was That was when it came to the Supreme Court. 00:58:12 Speaker 4: What guy was? I can't. 00:58:17 Speaker 5: It was, oh, gosh, Parence Thomas. Nope, but he said Michael Jackson. Might have been Robert bork Uh might have said. 00:58:25 Speaker 1: It wasn't Elms. 00:58:27 Speaker 3: I can't remember. He said, I don't. 00:58:29 Speaker 4: I don't know. 00:58:32 Speaker 3: I know it when I see it. 00:58:33 Speaker 1: Yeah, So that is one like that's one thing I feel about as far as fair chase, it's difficult to define. It's difficult to define down fair chase because I'll say, like, I don't agree with fence honey. Like, to me, it just feels like farming, and you're bullshitting yourself and others when you act like it's hunting. People Like, what if I'm hunting a fence place that's like twelve thousand acres, you know, way bigger than an individual animals home. 00:59:03 Speaker 4: Range start under you know who that is? He was a Supreme Court I believe whatever, So fuck that guy. 00:59:12 Speaker 1: They'll put out something like that and you're like, okay, yeah, in that case, maybe that's whatever. So it's like it's like it's so hard for me to sit down and say, like fair chase hunting is blank. But some stuff's just not right, you know, it's just not We'll tell you what is fair chase hunting black tailed deer Prince Wales island in the rain and fog. 00:59:33 Speaker 4: Yeah, climb so fair. 00:59:35 Speaker 1: Chase in fact that I really have no idea. I feel like if we hunt hard and keep a good attitude and and and really get out there and pound it, even if the weather's bad. I think we'll do good. If we were going there and the weather was going to be good and it's not. If we're going to the weather would be good, I think that we would have just a fantastic hunt. I think we'd be coming back every night. 00:59:55 Speaker 4: With with deer. 00:59:57 Speaker 1: But it's just you know, you get the when the fog, the rain, things get hard, things get miserable. Yeah, fair, chase, Yeah, anything you want to add. 01:00:13 Speaker 4: You try to keep this to an hour. Yeah, yeah, not doing anything you want to sleep. 01:00:20 Speaker 1: Because our audience we don't have the amount of drug takers that your audience does. 01:00:26 Speaker 4: That's not what it is. You know what it is. It's commuters. It's like you by imposing a time, you know, like, look, if someone downloads a podcast, most people have enough room on their phone or on the whatever, the computer wherever they put it. They have enough room for three hours or five hours or whatever, and they delete the old ones when they run out of time. But when someone's on a plane or when someone's like driving, that's when I think they appreciate long podcasts. 01:00:53 Speaker 1: I'm sure. 01:00:54 Speaker 4: Yeah, but you don't have to listen to all of it. Everybody was telling me when I first started doing podcasts, you got to dedit this. That's one of the earliest complaints. 01:01:01 Speaker 1: The ear piece of advice they have was the even Ari was. 01:01:05 Speaker 4: One of my best friends. 01:01:07 Speaker 3: Three hours. 01:01:08 Speaker 4: What was the idea? Just because I wanted to do three hours? 01:01:12 Speaker 1: You wanted to feel as long as a really good movie? Man. 01:01:15 Speaker 4: No, My my personal instinct was I enjoy talking to people for long periods of time because I think the conversations they make, they take turns, and as long as my attention span is there while I'm having a conversation, why stop it, keep it rolling? Are you tired? You tired of talking? If you're not tired of talking, let's keep talking. That's always been my feeling because I think that the deeper you get into a conversation, a conversation is uh, it plays out not you know. I mean, it's not like a movie. Obviously a movie is far more difficult to make. But there's turns and twists, and you find out more about a person, and you get to understand a person's style of communicating, and while while you're talking to someone, when you're doing a podcast, especially when you're the host of a podcast, because you're kind of thinking about the entertainment value of it or how it should be. I'm constantly thinking at it, about it, not just as a person who's engaged in a conversation, but as a person who might be listening to this. I want to try to play Devil's advocate as much as possible. I want to try to cover as many points of view as possible. And I also I'm kind of understanding this person's style of communicating, and I'm trying to figure out a way to not talk over them or pause as much as possible, or give them as much of an opportunity to expound on their ideas. That takes time, you know, I think that you know some podcasts. I bailed on something the other day after two hours? Did this guy's bar? Really? Thanks a lot? Man? And I tell you say they can kind of tell remember that. 01:02:48 Speaker 1: Mitch Hedberg joke about taking attention deficit disorder drugs even though he's not afflicted. 01:02:53 Speaker 4: How did it go? He said? 01:02:54 Speaker 1: He runs around saying, man, there's gotta be more to that story. 01:03:00 Speaker 4: Kind of hilarious, That's hilarious. 01:03:03 Speaker 5: Some people are just like, you know what with Dimitri Martin was like he said he was doing a joke and he goes. One thing you never hear is somebody say, God, wish that guy had talked more about himself at that party, or Wow, I wish that. 01:03:19 Speaker 4: Guy would drop more names. 01:03:21 Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't really get a strong sense of his professional connections. 01:03:27 Speaker 4: Do you know that way? You know that way? 01:03:28 Speaker 5: And I think I can say it Nick Nolty, because he's been such a product of Hollywood for so long. He literally I spent a long time with him. I never yeah, I never. I spent enough time with him, like in the background the scenes in that movie Warrior. 01:03:43 Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time. 01:03:44 Speaker 5: I did a reading with him, went to his house, and one of the fascinating two things that I noticed One he had no story that didn't involve Hollywood and a star, and two ibbly spent I don't know how many hours he never asked me one question about myself, Like just not one thing. 01:04:00 Speaker 4: You see, when I talked to him, all he wanted to talk to about is me? Is that right? 01:04:05 Speaker 1: Is Joe talking about that? Because I was going to your mind when he killed that. 01:04:09 Speaker 5: Yeah, Well he was like, you're like a rich man's Joe Rogan Brian killing I want to spend time with you. 01:04:13 Speaker 4: I saw him in Fries once. He was buying a computer for his kid, and he was just totally normal, like, oh hey, Joe, you're buying a computer trying to figure out which one. My boy, that was good. 01:04:27 Speaker 3: He's a great guy, very good. 01:04:29 Speaker 1: And then Michael who's that guy Mo used to work for? Talk about name drop Michael Man and then Michael Man show they were doing or Nick Noldy was in it as the horse guy. 01:04:38 Speaker 4: What movies that? What shows? 01:04:39 Speaker 1: That was like a series? He got cancer because they kept killing horses. Oh, I don't know what the Southern One game was a horse game. It got canceled because they were killing all the horses kept all dying. Yeah luck. 01:04:50 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it's just also not veryck. 01:04:52 Speaker 1: Noldy was in it. No, man, I like that show. 01:04:55 Speaker 4: So it was the show about horse racing and the horses were dying during production. 01:04:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it was like one died, it was a big deal. Another one died and they just ended the show. 01:05:04 Speaker 4: Oh wow. 01:05:06 Speaker 3: Because people weren't watching it. 01:05:07 Speaker 4: On a related. 01:05:11 Speaker 1: Man, it was hard to follow. But Nick Nolty was cool in it, and he was the only cool thing about that recent uh, the Robert Red for one. It was kind of like based off The Weather Weather Underground. 01:05:22 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, he comes out and does a role. He's he's like good, he was great and warrior. He was fucking that's a lot of people didn't see that movie. That movie was not a well received movie, but Nick Nolty's role in it was fucking incredible and you were in it. He played this alcoholic dad who was a trainer who just missed as somebody. He has this one breakdown scene. It's fucking incredible. It's hard to believe the guy's not really breaking down while the scene's going. It's incredible. 01:05:50 Speaker 3: And he got sober for that movie. 01:05:52 Speaker 4: Man, I mean that was He's amazing. Yeah, that guy can act his ass off. He's a real artist, all right. 01:05:58 Speaker 1: So you can catch Brian callon the movie wore Yeah. 01:06:00 Speaker 4: That's right, good plays me. 01:06:02 Speaker 1: You can catch play Play Joe Roker. You can catch Brian Kallen on that true. 01:06:06 Speaker 4: I tried to get Joe to do it and he plays like he does my role that I do with the UFC. He did that in My Name is that movie. 01:06:13 Speaker 3: Brian Callen on the show. 01:06:14 Speaker 1: And you can catch Brian Callen is it really Yeah? 01:06:18 Speaker 5: You can see me in everything you guys, you ever heard of the movie you heard not to make it about me, The hangover of Matt TVs first two years of MA TV. Guys, go get those DVDs. Huh, I'll make I can feel I can finally get that operation. 01:06:31 Speaker 1: All right, Thank you, Joe, Thanks many to doing this. 01:06:34 Speaker 3: It's awesome. Steve Raellen

Save this episode