00:00:01 Speaker 1: What was that top order? John? Mike, he was throwing over at FDR Park for them largemouth. John asked to see his dad's old musky gun. How else would you dispatch of musky before bringing it in the boat? If you could fish with any muppet, which one would it be? The guy that was in the trash can? Example? Where's Puck? Remember Puck from the real world? Whatever happened to Puck? Good morning, degenerate Anglers, and welcome to Ben, the fishing podcast that once got booted off an episode of MTVS lip Service for not knowing the words to how do You Talk to an Angel? I'm Joe Surmellie. I'm Miles Nulty. And wasn't that like the theme song to Dawson's Creek? No, No, it was not. And you know what did you know it Wasn't you know that? You know? That asked rhetorical question? There is. It's actually more on point than you realize, though, because the guy who's sang how do you Talk to an Angel? Actually did play Tory Spelling's boyfriend on Beverly Hills One. Oh really? How about yeah? How about that? You're dude, You're like a nineties media Savante. I hate that. I know that, but I do we ever get to play bar trivia again. I'm on your team. I'm calling Dibbs. We're on the same team. And you're right. That was a snide comment. That was being a jerk. But to get back to where I think you were trying to lead us in this conversation, Yes, I do remember MTVS Lip Service and and if memory serves, it was a cringeworthy lip syncing competition judged by B list celebrities exactly exactly, And I watched that show religiously back in the day. And I feel like in that era in the early to mid nineties, you'd come home from school and that was always what was on, Like like if you just put on MTV in the afternoon, that's what was on. And I watched it like crazy, Um, What's Spinderella was the DJ Salt Pepper, So yeah, from Salton Pepper. It was the bomb because she'd throw Jane's addiction at some sorority girl like and it was glorious because the same girl she'd be all over that ASA bass track, you know, like really feeling herself and proven. But then like Perry Farrell comes in and it's instant train wreck. Just it just falls apart. And then these poor these poor people would have to have their their performance judged by like Gilbert Godfrey on bottom Mchanneth Kilbert. How did they move for you? They moved, well, good movement. What do you give him? Man? How deep the lip service rabbit hole did you did you fall to do this bit? It was large, it was large and deep. It was large, and to be honest, I'm gonna tell you what, man, it wasn't even the lip service footage that that like took me back and tickled me most. But the commercials in the episodes I watched, like some of them had the old commercials still in there, like you know what I mean, Like listen to this, you do you remember cinemburst gum. These dots indicated explosive personality play a crystical suitable flavor crystal. Yes, I had completely block those from my memory, I think, or I don't know. Maybe maybe whatever toxic chemicals those were made out were actually responsible for my lack of short term memory. I don't know, I don't know, but they definitely couldn't have been good for probably be bad. Uh. This might also be a rhetorical question, what happened to that dude who hosted lip Service? Oh, I don't even know his name? Who knows? I don't who knows John something? I think I don't know John j. It was definitely a j word. Uh. And I mean there's that guy. I feel like what there? I feel like there's a whole host of twentysomethings who thought that getting on MTV was gonna like jump start their careers. And now I have no idea what happened to them? Uh, where's example, where's Puck? Remember Puck from the real World? Whatever happened to Puck? Holyesh? Yet Puck, Puck was man, Puck was the best. Thank you for Oh my god, I forgot about though. I will say, Puck, if you're listening, like, we'd love to have you on Puck And normally, like we say stuff like that, and it's a joke because these people it's not gonna happen. These people aren't going to come on our show. But it's not outside the Roman possibility. We may actually hear from Puck because I'm assuming at this point his career as a bike messenger has dried up. He's probably Puck's probably not doing a whole lot these days. I really hope we don't hear from him. I'll just say, come on, yeah, no, I get it. You you think it would be funny. I'm I would vote in a on Puck, and I'm not really worried about it. If I'm being honest, I'm pretty sure Puck didn't take up fishing all right. Now, moving on, That's that's probably enough nineties pop culture for one intro. Let's get into uh, let's get into our real world. Here, this this real world. We're kicking things off this week with a badass, salty East Coast fly fishing guide who's probably too young to have caught any of those references, but all right, we like her anyway. Uh. In this week's covering Water segment, we're making like the pilots and wings a little more for you. But instead of trying to fly to Nantucket, we're landing on Martha's vineyard to rapid fire, idiotic questions at Captain Abbey Schuster, I'm going can hold it? Joining us today we have Massachusetts based guide, outfitter and shop owner, Captain Abbey Schuster. What's going on? Abbey? Hey? How are you? Thanks? For having me. Great to have you here, even if you're on on the wrong side of the country, I still still appreciate she's on my side of the country, Okay, the right coast. So so as I was, as I was trying to prepare for this, like I was, I was, I was working on figuring out how to somehow quickly sum up the trajectory of your career. And I'm not sure if I got it right. You're born out east, and then you came to Montana for college and started guiding around Missoula. Then then you went over and started guiding in Washington and Alaska, and then you went back east to start up your your outfitting operations. Is that all correct? Yep, that's right? And is that is that because you finally couldn't stand not having a good piece of pizza anymore? Actually it was part of it. You're probably picking up on something that you may or may not know, and which is that Joe and I are perpetually locked in this East versus West feud and uh, and that's fact that you went back there kind of tells me that you're on his side. So I'm I'm holding that against you a little bit. But I'll get over it tries and finally I said, I could be East Coaster again. Party, I'm not. I'm not arguing that. I just you know, I'm partial to Montana myself. Part of my heart there fair enough. I'm gonna leave that alone because we don't need to. We don't need to dive into that whole East West. I think that's been covered more than enough. Another thing I found out about you. You are the only charter captain that I know who's also a yoga instructor. Alright, so just real quick, real quick, Like, I'm very familiar with the process of getting licensed as a captain because because I've done it. But is there is there like a formal process for for getting oneself recognized as a yoga instructor? Is it just like being a professional fly persian gut on Instagram? Okay, so what does that mean? Like, what does it mean to be You can't just like I can't just tomorrow call myself a yoga instructor I hope not offense. No, you have to do like two hours of school or five hours of school, and then you're two our teacher, five teacher and so it's usually like mine was nine months for of like twice a month for the whole weekend. So it's harder than becoming a captain, is what you're saying. It's longer, but the test way easier. Tests are hard. They're really hard. I know, I was surprised how hard they were. I can spend too much time on this, but I feel like I feel like I'm gonna save my stupid questions for the actual reason you're here. Uh. We asked you onto the show today to take part in covering Water, which is the rapid fire interview segment we do instead of bothering to conduct proper interviews. And here's how it works. Joe is gonna put two minutes on the clock and then he and I are gonna rapid fire questions at you. Your goal is to get through as many as possible in those two minutes, which means you can't think about your answers. You just gotta blurt out whatever comes to that. But in the spirit of fairness, after those two minutes are up, we will give you one minute to expand and elaborate on whichever answer you think was most interesting or potentially damaging to your career. Pick the career ender and you can. You have one minute to people love this. All our guests are like, what a great segment? All right? You ready to go? All right? Two minutes starts now we're doing more yoga. Make me a less shitty spay caster. Yes, what's the most painful spot you've ever been? Hooked? My stomach? Your least least favorite fish to target? Um? Sea robin ah? Interesting one? Which beer is honestly truly better Bad Martha or Cisco? Cisco? Whoa, that's the Nantucket beer gunheads? I should explain that Rocky Mountain oysters or whole belly clams? Whole belly clams? What gets you more excited? The worm hatch or the squid run? Which fish are stupider stripers busting a bait pile or cutthroats chewing on katas cut the cape cod canal? I love it? Or screw that ship show? Screwed up? Sh chew? Nice? Thank you? Who's the greatest angler of all time? Oh? My grandmother is pretty good. That's a great, excellent, great beat. The best fish to sitecast two in the entire world is iron gar or vinyasa? I don't even know, I don't have anything there. The movie you quote most often? Is I'm really bad at quoting movies. Okay, so not really. The species you've never caught, the highest on your list peacock, bass, okay, clouser, minnows, chartruss over white or pink over white if you could only use one for the rest of your life, pink favorite excellent poppers or stick baits. If you could fish with any muppet, which one would it be? Oh, that's a good one. Maybe the guy that lives in the trash can that. No, that's Oscar, but it's a perfect color for it. We'll have to get clarification whether Oscar is a muppet. I don't think so. I don't think that was a fun one, all right, so I will. I am now putting one minute on the clock, and you can you can elaborate, Abbey on any one of those answers that you would like. Your time starts now. Okay, the beer question, I feel like I have to go back to that because we have this little rival between you know, Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard. I like Martha's. I like that Martha's you know my people, but I just like the taste of Let's go better. I have to say I really do, man, you pick the one that is like saving your local street credit. I appreciate you. Know, I would be the shop and not run another year. And we're right down the road, so I have a protection that here. Oh man, I wish I had anything to say about this, because I don't know either of those beers or anything about this present ever, look full disclosure. When I was coming up with questions, I wanted to come up with some fun ones, so I reached out to a buddy of mine who's up there it works for on the water, and I was like, dude, what's a good beer question for Abby? And he's like, she's on the vineyard right, and he's like, yeah, so bad Martha or Cisco. That's the two rival that's the two rival beers. Yeah, they do the island's rival. You should see it. It's crazy. I've never been to Nantucket, only Martha's Vineyard, but that was for a Jaws tour, sadly not to fish. And that that's dorky and I'm sorry I said it, but that's what I've been there for. I've only been to Nantucket one to fish around there all the time, like actually stepped foot on the Island twice, yet they have the better local brew. Yeah, I stopped, got a beer hang out. I feel like I feel like we've thrown a regional gauntlet here on Bent and this will only be settled with the with the fishing throwdown. Hopefully Joe can get up there and do that and help you out with that. Abby, thanks for coming. We really appreciate having you. Thank you so much. I'll tell you why, man. I got such a kick out of Abby using her one minute of clarification time to explain why the rival Islands microbrew is better than her Islands micros. Like that was gutsy if you think about it, like to to just just you know, she just went for it and was honest. But I admire her honesty so much. And I hope nobody's you know, like burning cases of Cisco on the steps at the shop right now. Terrible. I hope that's not the case either. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think better of humanity and guess everyone took it and stride uh. And you know, I think that that's part of why I and other people like Abby. She's she's straight up, man. She calls it like she sees it. Yeah, yeah, And I don't know anything about that fishery out there, so I don't know what you guys were talking about with the Cape Cod Canal, but after you outed it as a ship show, I want to know more interesting. Yeah. Yeah, we could spend hours picking that apart. And for the record, I've never actually fished there, but I want to because I enjoy a good ship show, you know, sometimes like it's just part of the Northeast scene, but basically it's shoulder to shoulder dudes in season, and like many places in the Northeast, you know, it gets crowded, and some people consider catching a big straper there kind of half a victory, you know, because it's really easy access and the fish are kind of corralled and and somebody with relatively little knowledge can can stick a forty pounder there, just like walk up and sweat pants and do it. But then it's that argument of does that fish count as much as the forty You know, a guy caught by putting on a wet suit and swimming to a rock in the middle of the night after months of noting the tides and following the migration, So it's kind of you it as like the easy place to get your big bass. But I still want to fish there, so yeah, I mean, I don't think I can. I can weigh on that. If we're talking about, you know, big trout in the Spring Creek versus land of the giants out here, I could, I could talk about that, but I'm I'm I don't know if if we're if you're asking me the question, does that count? I don't know. I think the guy doing the crazy stuff in the middle of the night counts more. I would I would pick that one has more valid, you know, I definitely. I mean, in my youth around here, I almost killed myself a couple of times just trying to catch twenty and shrout. I have no idea what I would have done if I had access to forty pounds stripers, Like, I don't know, I would have done something like I did for the time when I discovered stripers. Yeah, and like in the past, when we've been swapping fishing stories, you've told me about folks you know who get like fully suited up in heavywet suits and swim rough seas at night to deep water rocks, and they like they tow all their gear behind them right, just to get a shutterproof stuff like you know, that's what all those vans stalls are for their waterproof lash it to themselves and kick backwards. Man, None for me, thanks, But I know the guys who do this, I'm intrigued by that, Like, yeah, that is one of them. And we can added to a whole list of things in the Northeast that I just don't know much about, but I want to know more about it, like I'm I'm, I'm interested in that. And as we do so often, we get on these topics about Western stuff and Northeastern stuff and and by my request, this week, Joe is gonna teach us a lot more about a very niche Northeast word with hip hop roots in the weekly word. Webster's Dictionary defines fish as this week's word is John. That's j A w N. And it's a word that really has nothing to do with fishing, but at the same time could technically have everything to do with fishing. And the only reason I'm even doing this John is because I said the word John in another episode, and Miles, being the word smith that he is, was so intrigued by my John he had to know more about the John. John is a slang term that originated in Philadelphia, at least mostly and we'll get to that, and is used so much even in Philly's surrounding PA and New Jersey suburbs, that it often appears in advertising. McDonald's even got down on that John, with billboards featuring nothing but a sausage McMuffin and the words that's my John. Visit Philly dot COM's billboards read there's no John like Home and vitamin water plaster the area with billboards that said Vitamins electrolytes, get that John. So what is this John? Well? According to that Oxford Dictionary, john john refers to a thing, place, person, or event that one need not or cannot give a specific name to. So basically, John can be used to replace absolutely any now anyone at all in its singular or plural form. As an example, I might say, what was that top order John, Mike, he was thrown over at FDR Park for them largemouth John. Or upon seeing a giant flathead catfish swimming along the bank of the School River, I might say, Yo, that's the biggest John I ever seen in here, followed by yo, I'm retiring my John with fifty pound, because that thirty pound John ain't gonna be strong enough of a hook that John. Interestingly, John can be pluralized with or without an S. Saying let me get one of them John's when asking a buddy for a fresh mintow out of the bucket is acceptable, but more commonly, John is used to refer to multiple things minus the S. As an example, when asking a friend where he acquired multiple new striper plugs, you'd say, where'd you get them? John? You might also say I want to get into fly fishing, but there's so much John to buy. Theories abound about John and where it came from. In fact, John is such an intriguing word because it can be used in so many ways that linguists have spent years studying this John and tracing its origins. All signs point to John being a derivative of joint. Joint as a slang term rosen popularity in the American South around the time of emancipation, bars and clubs that served as safe havens for black Americans were called juke joints. This eventually expanded into the labeling of somewhat sketchy places as joints, which even further down the line translated to any place you considered kind of underground, such as that little pizza joint or burger joint you think only you and your boys know about. Even though that John is all over yelp, but some smart John believed John was born in Philly. In one specifically, that year, hip hop group Funky four plus one had a popular song called That's the Joint, and it was one of the earliest recorded hip hop tracks where the word joint was used as a positive term to refer to something good or something that you like. Linguist say, because the singers slightly drew out the vows in the word joint and didn't accentuate the t, Philadelphians either heard it as John or sang it as John, ultimately solidifying the future of that John. Take a listen what we just care miss? Just can't miss? What we just miss? Beat like this? Did you hear it? Let's listen one more time here. Whether you heard joint or John, the mere mention of this song being the origin of John infuriates many Philadelphians. Why because Funky four plus one was from the Bronx, and even though most linguists agreed. John technically came from Joint, which got popularized as a catch all in New York hip hop culture. Philly people just don't want to hear that John. That John means too much to them. Now, if you're one of them John that gets all mad about John coming from them New York John, here's what I suggest. Head out to the garage and grab your John and head down to that John where you called all them John last season. Cast out alive John under a bobber. Maybe throw one of them Panther and Martin John's and just relax. You got other John to worry about. No matter where that John came from, it's a Philly John. Now, quick follow up. Do you think that funky four plus one, that that particular track was ever on lip service? Oh? Absolutely not. Yeah, that would have been a death sentence. It would have been these those those nineties kids would have no idea, no idea. And also I think it's funny because that song is from that era in hip hop, you know, like when one track was was twenty five minutes long and like chron an entire week in somebody's life. You know, my alarm went off at eight am. It was Tuesday, I was tired, so I hit the snooze button. Eight minutes later, my alarm went off again. When they just get on the thing, that's like, we're gonna rock this beat, gonna rock this peap, We're gonna rock this and it would go on for five minutes. But I am, yeah, sugar Hill, It's it's their style, no doubt. But I am curious though, Like, listening to that, did you hear Joint or John? Okay, so the first clip I heard Joint, but the second clip I heard John. Yeah, So I think I think with you like you can. I think you can take that one either way, to be honest with you, because because there are different parts of the song that you sampled there and and in the first one to me is clearly Joint and the second one I hear the John. But before we get too far away from it, I really did love everything about that Weekly Word. I felt like you completely crushed that one and took it, took it in a direction I didn't think was gonna go. And I very deeply enjoyed it as a fun one for sure, and it hit on a lot of levels for me personally, and you got me thinking like As I was listening to that, you got me thinking about how how influential that particular Funky four plus one track was, I mean, and then I started thinking about all of its different references in hip hop. Right, you got this one from eighty nine, Yeah Man, Beasts for the Win on that fantastic track, fantastic album. If you don't know Paul's boutique, you gotta. And then there's this other one almost ten years later, this one from Playing again. Now, who's that? I don't know that? Okay? That was That was Black Eyed Peas back when Black Eyed Peas did hip hop instead of pop, back before Fergie was in it, and they were like they were an actual legitimate hip hop I could go, I could go on and on with us for a very long time. Uh, and we won't. I'll leave it at those two because I think they're good ones. But we've got our own little linguistics rap battle to deal with. Here. It's time for that fish news, John fish news. That escalated quickly, all right, for we're getting the news here. I I got a shout out this week. Have to shout out listener Dustin doug Stad or Dogstad again again with the names don't know. I'm not really sure. But he sent us a video clip, right, and I know you've seen it. I have, but before you get into it, the first time he sent it to us, there was no information, no context. It was just this really weird clip that I looked at it and I went, I don't know what's happening here, but I want to know, please tell me the story. Well now, so now, yeah, so he came. He came through with the follow up, and now we know, and I've never seen anything like it, right, And it almost makes me question how badly I actually want to fish in New Zealand. Now I've always sort of dreamed of it, And now I'm not so short. So we'll do the short version because we got a lot to get through today. But in the in this clip, Dustin's fishing this this trout river in New Zealand and he had caught himself like a really nice big rainbow that he apparently decided he was going to take home for dinner, so he bonked the fish. But then what he does is he props his cell phone up on a rock so he can get a little selfie video of his big rainbow. And then he says, while he was shooting that video, he realized that trout still had a little life left in it, so he moved off camera. He bonked it again, and then he reaches down to wash the slime and blood off his hands. Now remember his camera is still rolling propped on the rocks, so it's like getting him in the corner of the frame, and all of a sudden, this giant, like three four ft eel latches onto his middle finger and he rips it out of the water, still still holding onto his hand, and just flings this giant eel just flings it. And his reaction is priceless. Okay, but he had said an email after the fact. You don't see this. But while he's examining his bloody, chewed up finger, he looks down he notices they're there are four more of these giant eels at his feet, just poised and staring at him, ready to grab either a piece of trout meat or or or his hand. I guess, and I posted this on my Instagram earlier this week, but I'll drop it in my story again today. But it's creepy and it leaves me like clutching the hand bit because while I'm fascinated by eels. I don't love the like they creep me out when I catch them, big congress, I don't like it. I don't like creep They're creepy. And uh, I have fished that river the Dustin was on, actually, and I will I can attest to the fact that there are a lot of those freshwater eels swimming around in New Zealand waters, like they're everywhere, But you tell me you don't. You don't catch them on flies, but like he and he dropped a blood any chunk of meat. Like. I never fished bait, so I would imagine that if you fish bait, you get you get a lot of eels. But on artificials. I never had any any eel action other than just seeing them around. They're everywhere and they're definitely creepy. Yeah, oh yeah, super creepy video. But Dustin, thank you for that man, Like I gotta I got a I don't know if i'd say pleasure out of it, but it was. It was fascinating to watch and and thank you for giving us the story so that we knew what the hell is going on, because that's one of those amazing moments you catch on camera that you can never recreate. All right, So, as a as you all know, Fish News is a competition and normally we have no idea what stories the other ones bringing. But it's a little different this week because Joe knows what I'm gonna talk about. I'm gonna talk about something that that that we all know about here, um, but I don't know what Joe is going to talk about. So there's at least some mystery still involved. And at the end of it, are are phenomenal and amazing Audio engineer Phil is going to choose a winner and crown the champion of the week. And Joe, you're leading us off. So what do you got man? I am, I am, I'm leading us off. And I'm sure some of you recall the news story I did just last week, I believe about a woman in Malaysia eating her pet carp got a little little traction on the interwebs and she turned them into a nice soup. And in that report, we we touched on how it's understood that many people in many cultures love eating carp but by and large, we Americans don't. We don't eat the carp. In fact, like in the culinary world. People would go as far as calling carpet four letter word, which has been a really massive problem when it comes to getting people to eat invasive Asian carp right and um, even though they're not they're not the same species as common carp. They're not grubbing the bottom in the mud in the park pond. You know, they feed differently, they taste differently, and you and I can vouch for that, and we don't need to harp on it. But a piece of deep fried Asian carp is delicious and mild and not fishy at all. I eat at your house. We talked about it before. Still still they're called carp, which sours a lot of people from having any interest in eating them. Well. Uh. Per a recent story in USA Today, a full on media blitz is coming later this year, okay, to change the consumers perception of the fish and also more importantly, change its name. Okay, So now from this is from the article. The proposed new name for the fish is being kept tightly under wraps for a big rollout in June prior to the Boston Seafood Show in mid July. But other aspects of the what they're calling the Perfect Catch campaign will point out that invasive Asian carp species being Silver's big heads, grass carp and black carp are flaky, tasty, organic, sustainable, low and mercury and rich in protein and Omega three fatty acids. So what's happening here is the foodies are are kind of pulling another fast one. Right. And in case you didn't know, this has been done before, I'm you know, I'm sure many of you have heard of orange ruffy, right. They're a deep dwelling saltwater fish. But orange ruffy is not their real name. Their their their technical name is slime head. They're called slime heads um, and nobody wants to eat a slime head. But in the late seventies a decision was made to rebrand those fish so people would buy and eat them, and they did, and the world ate so much orange roffy that in green Peace added them to their red list of unsustainable fisheries. Um, I mean, the biggest ruse of them all is Chilean sea bass. Their real name is Patagonian toothfish. But nobody's paying eighty bucks for a play to Patagonian toothfish at the country club. Right, And but that name point blank was dreamed up by a seafood wholesaler in in seven looking to increase his profits and Boy Diddy and we don't have time to go into all the history and drama of commercial tooth fishing, but if you're interested, grab a copy of a book called Hooked, Pirates, Poaching and the Perfect Fish by G. Bruce Neckt. I don't know if you've ever read that. It's an it's several people. Several people. After we talked about the tooth fish last week and their blood being used to melt, several people melt melt snow. Several people wrote me and said I should read that book. I haven't read it, but it's one one we might have to cover. It's been a lot of years. I should reread it, but I remember it's very very good book, very detailed. Anyway, there's not much more to say about the carp story, right because it's all a big secret, like they're unveiling the new name, like it's like a New Year's eve ball drop. Yet I fear that when it does finally light up, like there will just be the deflated sound of one party blower, you know, like the eat yeah, like the effect Phil uses in Fish News, Phil, you remind us, Thank you, Phil. But I hope it works, I really do. I'm just skeptical because people have tried this with dog fish, see robins, skates, all kinds of things, like all these different efforts to get people really excited about eating them and buying them, and it really hasn't worked on a grand scale. But it does leave me speculating, how can you not about those names? Oh that's the fun part about this. I I do you have a couple in mind? Because I have a couple in mind. Of course I do. All right, do you want to go first or second? I mean, I only have one that I think is valid, and it's not really funny. I just think it would work. I think you just need to call it silver Cod, So okay, interesting if people are gonna buy it and they're gonna get the hell out of it, I had a little bit more fun with it. And the way I look at it is it all depends on the branding, right If if you want it to be mostly consumed at state fairs as like fish and chips, deep fried crispy brown, if that's sort of the motif, we're gonna get people excited about I was, I was. I would say Kentucky cod was one of them. That's a good one. But now if you want to if you want to glitz it up and make it fancy and have it in a raspberry reduction, I came up with Priori and Hake or my favorite, Davenport's soul. Oh, davenports soul is pretty clever. That's clever, I like, you know, So we'll see what they what they rename the the Asian carp up there in in Boston this summer. But kidding aside, this is a fun little story. If you have the chance to consume some, whether you catch it or somebody offers you some, you'll be shocked. Don't say no, don't really good. We've really done a good job. I gotta give you credit for most this, but keeping this. It's been a fun, lighthearted episode so far. Everything's been been kind of cheaking and I'm going to completely ruin this vibe right now. It's gotta be done, though. There's an elephant in the room that has to be discussed. Um and I'm only gonna I'm only gonna do one story today because because it's kind of long. Yeah, So last week, the State of Wisconsin's head sturgeon biologist, Ryan Kanig, was charged with obstruction in a case the alleges he and his staff illegally transferred lake sturgeon eggs to local caviaar processors and then tried to cover it up. Yep, if you if you watch the sturgeon spearing episodes of the fur hat Ice Tour, you might remember the interview that Yannie did with with Mr kaneg When we were putting that episode together. I talked with him a lot, like I'm not gonna say we're buddies, but I definitely got to know him, and he really helped kind of shape that story and help me understand, helped all of us understand the sturgeon fishery. So so Kennig is or I should say, was responsible for overseeing one of the largest, healthiest and best managed sturgeon populations in North America, the Lake Winnebago system. The story of this fishery and the community tied to the lake sturgeon around there, it just it captivated everybody involved, right, and that that's why we two of our episodes there, we just we had to cover that. It was so good and I don't want to get too repetitive for folks who already know, but I feel like this needs some backstory. Lake sturgeon, like all sturgeon, were pretty well wiped out by the turn of the twentieth century, and in most places they just haven't come back. In nineteen of the twenty states where lake sturgeon once had viable populations, they remain either threatened or endangered. Lake Winnebago and Wisconsin is an outlier. It is the epicenter for sturgeon recovery. This is the success story that the rest of the country in other parts of the world are hoping they can emulate. And some of that can be attributed to the culture of sturgeon spearing, which would seem weird to some people, with those of us who work here and Honey and amily understand the relationship between sport and conservation. People around Winnebago really love spearing sturgeon. They really enjoy sitting over these giant holes cutting the ice, holding six ft long tridents and waiting for match of fish to swim past them. Back in the late nineteen seventies, a sturgeon spearit named Bill Casper noticed that there just weren't very many fish around, and he figured that other spears might be seeing the same thing. So he drove to all the bars around Lake Winnebago and tacked up these hand made flyers, asking people to come to a meeting and talk about it. To his shock, over three people showed up and the conservation group Sturgeon for Tomorrow was born. And that group, like, to me, that represents exactly what we mean when we talk about degenerate anglers. Like going to a bar, attacking up flyers and starting a conservation organization is exactly what I mean. Because that group has now grown into the largest citizen advocacy group for sturgeon in the world. They have partnered with management agencies and biologists from all over the US and all the way to Europe. They were instrumental in jump starting and helping to fund sturgeon hatchery programs. They pioneered the Sturgeon Guard, which is like a bunch of volunteers who lined the banks of the Wolf River every year to protect spawning sturgeon from poachers or people who just want to mess with them. Like they literally stand guard over this fish and so often fish and wildlife covery efforts result in conflict between management agencies and local residents, but in this case, spears and anglers have been able to work in concert with the Wisconsin DNR and the results have been phenomenal. Here's Kanek. This population has had a chance with the protections that have been in place for the last few decades that we're starting to see what these fish can actually do. We've got more fish than we probably had in recent decades, maybe even dating back to the late eight hundreds, and we've got more big fish than we maybe ever have had. All that has to say, Lake Winnebago sturgeon are a rare and unequivocal success story in modern fisheries conservation. They're in such good shape that the Wisconsin DNR can confidently open up a spearing season every year and tens of thousands of people by tags yeah sturgeon biologists at annual quota, and the DNR operates registration stations at all the major lake access points so that they can closely monitor fish harvest. As soon as that quota is met, which doesn't happen every year, the season closes immediately right there on it, so tex and biologists collect samples and data from each fish harvested like length, weight, sex, stomach contents, and sexual maturity, which provide critical information for continuing to monitor and manage the fish. So this is a very complex and really well organized event that gets tens of thousands of people fired up about Lake sturgeon and also helps the DNR collect all kinds of useful data. But spearing season, which opened last Saturday, began with a kind of a dark cloud over it. Kaneg, the biologist who has successfully overseen the Winnebago surgeon season since two thousand twelve, has been placed on administrative leave. He's also facing up to ten thousand dollars in fines and up to nine months in jail if convicted. He's not alone. Several other pillars of the sturgeon culture around Lake Winnebago are also facing possible charges. So what happened? Wisconsin? Dina has compiled evidence suggesting the Knag and other staff have been supplying row to local caveat processors for years. When a successful spear brought a sexually mature female to a registration station, the biologists and texts would sometimes collect the eggs as part of an ongoing fertility study. Knig told investigators that he delivered eggs to specific caviar processors at the Spears request after completing his analysis. Kani also told investigators he handed out sheets at surge and registration stations that listed certain processors names in contact info, so Spears knew where to deliver eggs if they wanted them processed into caviar. Now, if that were just the complete truth, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But Knag and others have been under investigation since, and the criminal complaint alleges more nefarious goings on, shall we say, and astigators claim that dn R staff stored sturgeon eggs at registration stations with the sole intent of giving them the processors. They even found one cooler containing eggs marked with the name of a local processor. The complaint does not, however, cite any known sales of caviare or make any claims that anyone from dn R or elsewhere received payments for eggs. The problem is that there are numerous reports indicating the Knag and other DINA employees received jars of caviare as thanks as soon as Canagan. Others accepted gifts those sturgeon eggs were no longer given away. They were bartered, and bartering with wildlife products is unequivocally against the law and and to be honest. For really good reason, Canaan is being charged with obstruction because it appears he tried to cover up his involvement. The statements he made two investigators did not match some of the evidence they collect that Additionally, he performed a factory reset on his DNR issued cell phone after he became aware of the investigation. Yeah. Three other residents were charged with unlawful sale of game in connection to this case, including Victor and Mary Schneider. Again, if you watch the fur Head ice tour, you're probably gonna recognize Mary Schneider's name. She's the eighties seven year old decoy carver and and just matriarch of surgeon culture around Fondilac. I like the paint, I like that, I like that carve. Would do you know? I've been doing it for years. Mary told investigators that she and her husband process eggs dropped off by successful spears in exchange for half the finished product. There's no evidence that the Schneider has sold any of the caviard. They either ate it or gave it away to friends and family. But under the law, that's still a form of barter. I do not condone bartering or selling wildlife in any form. Doing so cance towards a slippery slope that can lead to the commodification of wild fish and animals. But man, I got to admit this story, the story really leaves me conflicted. You have several retired state employees said on the record that it wasn't unusual for DNR staff to share the prepared caveat they got from the processors at meetings or local taverns as a way of encouraging people to maximize the use of the fish they harvested. They considered the samples educational. And I can I can imagine that the folks work in those those sturgeon spearing season. Yeah, Like they see a lot of fish and a lot of fish eggs go to waste every year, and I'm I can imagine how frustrating that's gotta be. And so I can understand why they would want to encourage more spirits to eat eggs by showing them like, hey, this stuff can be made into a delicacy, It can be really good. Don't waste it. I also know how in a small town people often operate on a barter system, right like that they help each other out and they return favors in whatever ways they can. But I just, man, I think this case is a very sad and very high profile reminder to all of us that we just we can't use wildlife or fish meat or wild game as currency. Even a situation where it seems completely innocent and innocuous, like if somebody's helped me, I don't know, sand and repaint my deck, the law says I can't thank them with wally filets and deer steaks from my fraser. And I'm sure that there are some people out there they're saying that it's crazy and this is a total overreach of enforcement. But the commodification of wildlife has had disastrous outcomes in the past. We've seen what happens. So we have these really strict laws for a reason. And and for all those of you out here want to know more about this, h head on over to the mediator dot com and check out Pat Darkin's article titled Wisconsin's sturgeon biologists charging caveat probe. I totally agree with the slippery Slope here, but just to maybe try and have a better understanding, just or to clarify here. So like what you're talking about with somebody standing your deck and you're thanking them with walleye filets or dear meat from your freezer, that you're not supposed to do because now technically that has become a form of payment. Basically, now that's barter. If those same two dudes came over and helped you with nothing, and as a gift, you were like, hey man, you want to take some walleye home or some venisone home. That's okay. It is. Yes, you can gift. It's different state by state, but sometimes you have to have paperwork associated with it to say like this has been gifted, but often after its process you don't have to do that. If it were a whole animal that I had harvested under my tag and I wanted to give it to somebody, there would be a bunch of paperwork you have to do to make it legal. But you can gift things, they just cannot become a form of currency. That's where things become a problem. You cannot begin to use any wildlife products as currency of any sort by law. And again look I get why it's it seems potentially crazy. How could you be upset at at this eighty seven year old woman who is making caviare for somebody, and you know she gets half of it that she gives to her friends and family. That is That is something I I very much can identify with and understand that sense of frustration. But I also think it's important to recognize that we have these game laws for a reason, and they're really strict for a reason. Of course, I genuinely hope and I expect that the Schneider's get let off, Like I will be pretty upset if they actually get prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I really I it's not my call, it's not my place. But if anyone were to ask me, I'd say, I mean, come ons that you made your point. Everybody understands, like, let's let's not actually prosecute these old people. Knig is a different story. Yeah, Like I think he probably did have good intentions, I really do, But it's the lying and the cover up instead of just coming clean, and that for me, that's where he crossed. That's what bites a lot of people on a lot of things. Man if you had just been open about it, you might not be in the in the same in the same pickle. And and you know to to that end. So both of us, I mean, we we got lit up since this dropped, Like, you know, I wasn't that the guy in fair hat wasn't you know you guys work with him and sort of unrelated to the central story too. Um, you know, this happens from time to time. It is, it has happened to me there There have been several times over the years where you shoot a video or write an article or or quote somebody. Um, you know, and you do the best you can to to vet people and you certainly don't know everything about it. But then it comes out later like a dude got you know, hit for poaching crop ease and like you croppy fished with him three years ago. It happens on occasion, you know, like it's it's it's terrible, But um, I've had it happened with dudes who you know, had these incredible careers on the up and up, and then you know, something happens and then it comes back on you like oh, you were fishing with that ship head. It's like yeah, man, but you know, you don't know that, you know what I mean? Like this, this stuff just unfortunately happens time to time. And you know, there's also the you can't throw out or discount the excellent work that this person has done previously in his career. That doesn't mean that you condone the aspects that were illegal or or unethical, but you can't just discount and throw away the great work that he has done to help manage the sturgeon population and maintain the relationships of the community with a surgeon like the dude deserves the credit for what he did and and he's getting he's certainly getting the punishment for the things he did wrong as well. Yeah, you're right. I mean, as shady as this is, he made some wrong choices in this, but you're right, you can't let this wipe away and and define every single thing that this guy has done in his career. No, I don't. I don't think so. And I think ultimately the real loser and all of this isn't going to end up being the sturgeon population, right I think. I think, yes, that you've lost the person who was heading that up. You've lost some of the infrastructure that's worked to to to do this really well for the past nine years. And I'm sure that Wisconsin Dina was gonna get it back together and get things up and running. It's all gonna be fine. But you know, losing the folks who have been intimately involved in this program and done well with it for almost a decade is certainly going to be a hiccup. I don't think. I don't think this. I don't think this has a happy ending, and I just hope that, you know, I think. I think if there's a takeaway for me, it's it's to remember, like that how easy it is to run a foul when it comes to gifting or bartering with with fish and wildlife, and that we just we all have to be careful with that. There's a reason why those laws exist. There's no reason to be piste off about it. Just just be careful what you do. It's yeah, and it's the simplest things that can get you in a lot of trouble, all right. So that one, we had to get that one out of the way. I got one more short one here. Although it all, it all does kind of tie together. We've eaten Asian carpet and caviare now two very controversial dishes apparently, So well, let's let's we'll try and move away to something a little more safe and familiar. Um we because we all love a nice, golden, crispy fried piece of walleye, right especially it is the American fish. It's the American fish which is what makes this interesting. Um we especially love that out of a frigid lake in the middle of winter, it's good eats. Anyway, Minnesota based Blue Water Farms, which is an aquaculture company, believes they're going to be the first to successfully raise mass quantities of eater sized walleyes indoors. Walleye farming now indoors indoors. So now here's the thing, right I. We could spend another hour digging into the backstory of walleye farming and commercial walleye fishing, but there's just a couple of key bullet points here that will help paint a better picture of why this is a big deal. Uh. There is no commercial walleye fishing in the US anymore right there, But there is in Canada. So while you don't see walleye for sale in the States as as frequently as you did, you know many many years ago. Uh, if you do see it at a fish fry joint and restaurant in the Great Lakes whatever, it was probably harvested in Canada. And then with a couple exceptions, I gotta, I gotta, because otherwise you're gonna get hammered. There are a couple of tribal there are a couple of tribal nations who still do commercial fish for walleye in the US, but mostly it's it's gone. But I know I can see with our listeners that you were gonna appreciate that. I appreciate it. There's a lot of research in this, okay, and I was not great in school. It's the other bullet point here. We know walleyes can successfully be raised in h hatcheries. Many states do this for stock and purposes. However, they're they're typically released into the wild around twenty centimeters because once they reached that length, they're sort of off of plankton and micro in vertebrates and they're eating each other. So basically walleyes can't really be raised to market size or one of the difficulties, Uh you know the size you get nice filets off of, because they're just too damn mean and cannibalistic. That's one of been that's been one of the biggest hangups in walleye farming. Uh And that's just one of many problems have been encountered over the years now and doing some research, there have been some advances right there. There was one dude who figured it out in um floating pens. But you know, he was he was supplying local establishments, but his walleye was so much more expensive than the ones being imported from Canada that it just didn't make any sense. He kind of got knocked out of the market anyway. According to this story in the Duluth News Tribune, Bluewater Farms thinks they've got it figured out. And to be clear, this walleye rearing facility doesn't exist yet. They're still in the funding phase and grants phase, planning phase, but it is chugging along and the company has actually hired a gent named Gregory Fisher, who was was kind of the top dog at the aquaculture facility at the University of Wisconsin Stevens Point, and according to this story, he has essentially figured out how to rear market size walleyes in an indoor recirculating aquaculture system. His team has has proven that it could be done with broodstock, and I get the impression that there's some trade secret here, like there's a lot of details about the specifics of how he's figured that out left out of the story. However, the thing to keep in mind is proving it's feasible is not the same as scaling it up to a point where it's economical. Right, So to make it economical, you've got to produce loads and loads of walleye so that you make the cost of goods to restaurants and markets comparable to buying uh, you know, imported wild colt walleye or wherever else you get it. Uh And Bluewater is confident that that they'll get there, but it's really yet to be seen. And I think one of the interesting things about this is, you know, you called it America's fish. It's easy to forget how many people have never had delicious walleye because in a lot of cases, if you're not an angler catching your own, it's not something that you that you get your hands on very easily. Um. But but so many anglers target them, and you and I tend to run with fishy people were fishy people listening. Now that you sort of forget that. And it's very similar to stripe bess on the East coast. It's not easy to find legally harvested, you know, saltwater pure strange striper on a menure in a fish market. So many people have never tasted that. But because I fish for in my whole life, this it's it's it's not weird, and I'd be curious to see if wall anglers think, if this happens, if blue Water can achieve this um, if the fishes is good, because it's it's it's you know, common, the common non angling consumer won't really know the difference. But even here, you can buy what's labeled as stripe bass in a fish market, but it's it's sneaky wordplay because it's hybrid farm raised striper guarantee side by side with the real deal. It's not as good but same, it just doesn't exactly. And this whole operation, if you're unfamiliar with aquaculture, it's it's a circulating system. So they'll be growing wall eyes to market size, but also a year round growing lettuce and strawberries and all kinds of other things with with the wastewater that filters through and grows vegetables. Um, it could, it could be pretty revolutionary if they can get it done. Well. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm i'd say cautiously optimistic with the limited information I have. UM, I don't this is not a useful comment. But you're in Minnesota. Why would you name yourselves blue water? Like that just doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know. I don't know of any blue water in Minnesota. But anyway, maybe it just it sounds good if you're in the fish farming game blue wall. Yeah, and we'll we'll, time will, time will tell if it works. But you know, if you think about it, while there's still commercial fishing on the Canadian side of like the Great Lakes and things like that, I mean, the fact that it's not really happening to on a grand scale on on our side anymore really speaks to why we have such incredible walleye fisheries in the Great Lakes. So there's plenty out there to be caught for you to take home and cook up. But if we were commercially fishing for him to get the amount that we needed to supply restaurants and things. You know, Walleye fishing wouldn't be nearly as good on this side, So this does have value in terms of sustainable fisheries. And uh, maybe there'll be a lot more Walleyes down the road in fish markets. We shall see. You are definitely still eligible for a win for your reporting. Phil still has to pick somebody, and I think after this this round of news, I could certainly use a stiff drink to wash all this info down. So we'll hear from Phil and then we'll do a little that's my bar, Miles. You fell on the Caviare grenade this week so that Joe Sirmellie could be crowned the winner, and I'm sure he appreciates it. This whole Asian carp rebranding thing is all very amusing to me. Like it's Ali Shedy and the Breakfast Club or Olivia Newton John in Greece. The car will take off its glasses and let its hair down and we'll realize that it was hot the whole time. But as far as a rebranding goes, this feels less like Ziggy Stardust and more like Chris Gaines. People say you stink you, Garth Brooks fish you. But I see you, and you know what, I love you just the way you are best. God damn bar tender from tim buck to to Portland, Maine, the Portland argument for that matter. Okay, we've got a dandy. That's my bar submission for you guys, courtesy of Brad shoots you. I hope I said that right. And Brad, let me tell you what, man, I love when a part of what makes a bar great is a character at that bar, like I love the cheersy aspect of this entry. And today we are going to Leona was Anson. The Wisconsin people probably gonna tell me I said that wrong too, but it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. We're going We're going there to Johnny's Resort on the shore of Wabbican Lake. I'm sure I said that wrong too. Just send me a note. It's fine anyway, Brad Rites open in ninety seven by John sr and still run today by his son Johnny Muskie Ashton Brenner. Johnny's Resort stands in a category all by itself when it comes to fishing bars. You can pop into the resort in the morning, rent a boat with a full tank of gas for only fifty dollars, and head out for a full day of muskie fishing on some of the best water Northeast Wisconsin has to offer. When your day is done, you're gonna want to stop in for what is easily the best and only frozen pizza on the lake, and be sure to get your name up on the wall of honor if you were successful in catching a muskie. Johnny keeps a record of all muskies over thirty two inches caught in a year. That is rad But I do I just need to stop for one second. I just gotta just to comment and say, in my East Side world, the words best and frozen do not belong in the same sentence when discussing pizza. Like even the dives here, they make their own. Sometimes it sucks, but they make their own. Um. But I look, I do understand the frozen bar pie is such a Midwest thing, and even me like the pizza snot that I am will admit that if I had to classify the finest frozen pizzas have ever had the finest on the market, they would be Hedges, which is from Minnesota, and Jack's which is in fact from Wisconsin. I I appreciate that clarification and that you were willing to go there, But I gotta say, the whole Northeast pizza thing is is overrated. It is maybe so. I all right, thirty years ago, right, maybe maybe thirty years ago, when the rest of the country just had Pizza Huton Dominoes, there was a legitimate argument that, you know, oh, only get good pizza the Northeast, but now you can't get good pizza pretty much anywhere. And I say this having eaten at both Grimaldi's and Juliana's in Brooklyn. They're both very good, But are they the end all be all of pizza. I No, I do not think so. Mhm. I mean, that's fine, you're trying to get me to engage here, but I find it sometimes it's just easier to let people that don't know what they're talking about just have their moment, like we don't have the time. If I wanted to take a shot, though, I'd say, oh, Grimaldi's and Juliana's. Someone watches a lot of that Food Paradise show and is a tourist. The real Brooklyn people are not at either of those places. There at the real joint anyway, enough about that, fair enough, fair enough, I'm I'm wading into water that's deeper than my waiters. Right now, Back to Brad, who really is the focus of this. Yeah, we're being jerks, Brad says in his email, be sure to visit with Johnny, ask him to tell you some tales of his youth growing up on the lake. Asked to see his dad's old muskie gun. How else would you dispatch a muskie before bringing it in the boat, Or maybe asked to see the bucktails Johnny tied with his own beard hair, and certainly spend some time looking out of the collection of lures and mounts from a different era of musky fishing. Above all else, you must must sell a rust a successful day muskie fishing, or drown a shitty one with the bars signature. Drink the crowd bomb, the crowd bomb. Yeah, that's that's not racist. That's not racist. Till you're no, no, no, we are talking sour kraut um. So ready for this, because here's how you make it right, Brad says. In a bomb cup, you know the plastic cups with a shot glass in the middle, surrounded by a second larger cup, fill the shot glass with yeager, then fill the outside with And this next part is very important, he says. Warm Frank's sour kraut juice opened with a rusty can opener, he says. He says, Johnny himself poured me one to celebrate my first fly Rod musky, and I can say from the experience they are just as delicious as they sound. And I guess, Brad if I stuck my first fly Rod muskie there, and it was a good one, like like over forty, not a little tweezer, I I slam that, but uh, it really sounds awful, like it really said, it sounds terrible. Plus, I'm gonna just go ahead and say my yeager days are kind of over, and my Soco days are even further behind me, I think than my my yeager days. Smart smart choices, I don't know, I don't know, Like the crowd juice itself, that doesn't turn me off, like I could see adding maybe a spritz of that to a bloody or a Caesar, but croud juice and yeager in my head, that's like fish sauce on Starburst or something like that. Yeah, that that that sounds pretty terrible, and I'm gonna I'm gonna agree. It's it's not the Crouch juice, It's it's the Yeager. But though the drink sounds awful, the bar does not. If I gotta drink, if I if I am absolutely forced to drink around of crowd bombs to get Johnny started telling musky stories that that is one bumb I'll fall on. I'll throw myself on that one. And you know, beard, bucktails, musky guns, vintage mounts. Come on, I'm in, I'm I'm freaking in on all that. I I checked out Johnny's website and uh, it's uh, it's spartan at best, and it doesn't appear to have been updated since two thousand eleven. But it does seem to confirm the legitimacy of this this magical place. So Brad is not just putting us on with some elaborate fantasy. Mm hmm. That's good to hear. Do not play with our emotions like that. But if you have a magical place that serves liquor you'd like to hear called out on the show, much like Brad, please write down a compelling story and send it to us at bent at the Mediator dot com. I I loved that one. It left me wanting on some details because I want to know more about the muskie gun. Oh, I mean, was this was it twenty two? I have questions? There are lingering questions, so do I man? I I know, yeah, exactly was it a pistol? A shotgun? But I don't know? Man? In the in the old school shark fishing scene, at least out here, most guys did not rely on a pistol, you know, because you had to be too accurate and too much could go wrong, like shooting a hole in the boat. So the old heads around here they often went with the with a single shot for ten. The hell was that? That was my fault that I did not authorize this sticking in of that? What was that? That was my friends? I hope you noticed. That was Robert L. Keene and I had to get one more song reference in this episode. I just was we were on a roll anyway. It sounds like it sounds like back to the Bar Johnny Us is as much a museum as it is actually a bar or resort, and they might even have one particular classic lure hanging on the wall there that's been on my mind lately. In this week's end of the line, I'm taking a deep dive into a lure that somehow escaped both Joe and me for most of our lives, despite it being influential, groundbreaking and catching lots of big baths. So so right along with me as I give props to the devil. Well, that's not loud enough. I know Joe covered a classic propeller bait just a few weeks ago when he talked about getting all puky in the Amazon pulling wood shoppers for peacocks. But but I feel like I need to revisit this genre. The main reason comes from listener Ryan Bromberger, who runs the website Access the Wild and recently sent us a care package that included a couple of vintage lures from his great grandfather's tackle box. Now, I don't actually know what compelled Ryan to send such family riches to a couple of degenerates like us, but I am deeply grateful and humbled. One of the lures that Ryan sent along is a long cylindrical wooden heart bait with propellers in the four and the aft, superficially similar to the wood shopper, Joe described, as well as a whole bunch of other prop baits that have been sold over the years. But as I have come to learn, this one's different. This lure has captivated me ever since it arrived at my house, and I've spent way too much time digging into the backstory. To be totally honest, I'd never heard of this lure, and neither had Joe. At first glance, I just thought it was one of many short lived baits from the late twentieth century, something produced for a couple of years that never took off. But I was wrong. It's called a Devil's Horse spelled d E v e L for reasons I'll explain in a minute, and it was manufactured by the Smithwick Lure Company. Smithwick is probably best known for their road jerk baits, which Joe covered in an early episode of the show, but though the Rogue maybe the bait that is best known, it wasn't the lure that launched the company, or even their most groundbreaking design. That was the Devil's Horse. Jack K. Smithwick was an office supplies salesman in post World War Two Shrie of Port Louisiana, which might sound like a bland, dead end job, but it gave Smithwick access to the heads of some of the largest companies in the South. In the early nineteen forties, he started carving lures out of broom handles, much to the irritation of his wife's supposedly who started hiding her brooms. In ninety six, Smithwick designed and fished the first prototypes of what would later become the Devil's Horse. A couple of years later, once he knew it was onto something, he started giving out sample lures to his biggest clients. At that time, just about every serious businessman in the South fished for bass. Pretty soon those clients were calling him for more than just office supplies. They wanted lures, and we're willing to pay for them. In nine he quit the office supplies business, bought a lathe from Sears, hired some help, and started making lures full time from his home. Even after going in full time and producing thirty thousand devils Horses in the first year, demand vastly outstripped his production capacity, which gave the lures an even greater appeal. For the first decade, the bates were something of a regional secret, popular in Louisiana, Texas, Arkansas, and Florida, and at that time they were branded with the word devil like I said, misspelled with two ease. Most sources claim that misspelling to have been intentional, a marketing decision made due to concern that buyers wouldn't purchase a lure with the word devil on it during those more pious times. But in an interview with the writer Michael Bacon, Smithwick's son Jack Jr. Claimed Hell, Dad just couldn't spell either way. In nineteen sixty three, the bait was officially renamed the Devil's Horse with an Eye, just as the Smithwick brand began to gain national traction. By then, they had a whole line of Devil's Horse style stick bait offshoots in different sizes, weights, and body shapes. Throughout the sixties, outdoor writers pen tails of riding the Devil's Horse and catching bass all over the country. In nineteen sixty nine, Smithwick released the Robe Jerk bait, and that seems to have been the turning point when the Devil's Horse began to fade in the background. A couple of years later, Smithwick started making rubber worms, spinners, weights, and crank baits, and somewhere in this period the company seems to have stopped riding the horse that brown them. Though the Devil's Horse never went out of production, it faded into the background, at least in certain parts of the country, which is probably why Joe and I, a couple of lifelong anglers who came of age in the eighties and nineties in the Northeast and West, had never heard of this bait. But that's not the end of the story. Just because Joe and I weren't hipped to the horse doesn't mean that other people stopped fishing them, or that they stopped catching fish. Solid chance that any Southern bass heads listen to this are hollering at their phones or radios right now and calling me a complete moron, because across those same states where the horse first gained popularity, it never really fell out of fashion. It has quietly remained a staple top water lure for big bass in shallow water, even among some of the top pros. Unlike the wood shopper and other prop baits, the horse supposedly shines brightest when fished slowly in close proximity to weedy cover instead of retrieving it with aggressive rips and jerks like Joe described with the wood shopper, or burning it on the top like a buzz bait. Folks in the No fish the horse as a finesse lure, casting it tight to cover, letting it sit for several seconds, and working it painfully slow short twitches followed by long pauses. And here's where I feel like the story of the Horse really comes full circle. If you're deep in the bass fishing scene, you've probably heard about spy baiting or spin baiting, a technical finesse presentation for highly pressured finicky bass. Developed in Japan in the mid two thousands, it became the hot new thing in the hardcore bass world about a decade ago. Spy Baits are long, cylindrical bait fish shaped lures propellers in the front and the aft. Sound familiar, Yeah, just like the Devil's Horse, But hold up, spy baits sink, and the Devil's Horse is known as the top water. Except the original horse was actually a subsurface lure, and smith Wick continued to produce various sinking models for many years after. Unfortunately, spy baiting wasn't a thing back then, and because the top water models outsold the sub service versions, the original design eventually fell out of production. The only horses made today are floaters, and that's kind of a shame. Smithwick was actually designing and fishing the hottest new lure for the smartest, most technical bass. He just did it about sixty years too early. So that's all the time we have this week. And what you've just experienced was the true story, the true story of two complete fish bumps picked to live in a podcast and have their bullshit taped to find out what happens when a salty girl from the vineyard, a washed up bike messenger, and a guy who's dead used to throw lead a musky heads. Stop being polite and start getting real serious about reminding you do please keep those comments, questions, concerns, bar nominations, sale bin items, awkward photos and all that John coming to Bent at the meat Eater dot com. We love, love hearing from all of you, and don't forget we've always got eyes on those degenerate Angler and Bent podcast hashtags. Make us laugh, cry or barf with your posts and we might set the sticker pack at you. Yeah, and if you're struggling to figure out what to say to us when you email our post. Just ask yourself to exa kind of got your phone stop

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