00:00:14 Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of the bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast presented by f h F Gear, American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the place as we explore. Welcome to the Bear Grease Render Podcast. Brent, what have we done to deserve such a such a noble, noble crowd here? 00:00:51 Speaker 2: I don't know, man, it's with good effort, you get good results. 00:00:56 Speaker 1: Good effort gets good results. Yeah, Okay, it's good to see you, Brent. 00:01:01 Speaker 2: Thank you. 00:01:01 Speaker 1: It's been a while. 00:01:02 Speaker 2: It has been anything. 00:01:03 Speaker 1: You'd like to dress the audience about, just like, uh, you know, just like where you've been, what you've been doing that could be more important than being on the render. 00:01:11 Speaker 2: Well, I've been catching catfish, yeah, commercial fishing with my brother, commercial in the Arkansas River and we've been doing pretty good. Yeah. In Arkansas, if you put your nets out, you got you gotta check them every forty eight hours during this time of year, Yeah, cause the water temperature and they get fish gets stressed and you don't want to lose the resource, so we put them out. You got to go get them. You know, in the winter time, you can leave them out five, six, seven days and it usually takes that long to catch a good mess of fish. But this time you got to go. So that's what happened. I've been missing, yeah, a couple and Cody's in my chair. So there's that. The audience needs to know that if I sound a little off, I'm. 00:01:53 Speaker 3: Out of you. 00:01:55 Speaker 1: You're out of the chair. 00:01:56 Speaker 2: It didn't off. He told me to stay away. 00:01:59 Speaker 1: Well, got to come back to the commercial fishing. But let's let's introduce our Let's introduce our guests. We have we have four employees of the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife with us. All happened to be game wardens. Uh, Austin, why don't you just introduce yourself? Tell me where you where you work, and how long you been with the departments stuff like that. 00:02:21 Speaker 4: My name's Austin Jackson. I'm the Craig Kenny game Orden. I've been employed with Oklahoma Department Whilelife since twenty fifteen. 00:02:29 Speaker 1: Okay, So Austin was the guy that contacted me that said, hey, you need to do a podcast. I was wondering how you Keith Green and uh and and just this paddlefish, the whole paddlefish story awesome and man, you don't know how many people do that and it and it just never plays out like there's a lot of great ideas. There's no there's no limit to the amount of good ideas that people talk to me about. But there's got to be like ten things that lie up for it to work. And it worked. So thanks a ton good for the tip, you know, but that's great. 00:03:07 Speaker 3: Hank, Yes, sir, I'm Hank Jinks. I'm the actually the captain over kind of the northeast corner of Oklahoma over to around the tuls Areas ten counties. I'll just throw it out. I've got kind of a weird history. I've spent ten years as a game warden back and started in ninety two and then left and went to the highway patrol and the flying helicopters for them for most of my career, and then came back in about a year and a half ago. 00:03:39 Speaker 1: So really, yeah, so you're a helicopter pilot, Yes, sir, you can catch them on foot in the car and a helicopter or whatever it takes. 00:03:46 Speaker 3: Yep. 00:03:47 Speaker 1: So you've now what kind of stuff would you be would you have been doing in a helicopter for the state police. 00:03:54 Speaker 3: So we we did a lot of weird stuff, the things you would probably think about, like, man, huh some search and rescues. Oklahoma had a really robust uh traffic. We would fly if you've ever seen the little white crosses on the side of the interstate their they're known distances. So we would take airplanes out, usually in airplanes and not helicopters on there. When we would we had chronographs in the cockpit and we would we would measure, we would time people whatever. You know, it's it's a given that radar detectors had no bearing on it, so they you know, we would time them from one point to the to. 00:04:29 Speaker 1: Them from the air. 00:04:30 Speaker 3: From the air traffic, you can write tickets just as fast as you can get. 00:04:34 Speaker 1: So then you have somebody on the ground that yeah, it. 00:04:36 Speaker 2: Was a setup. 00:04:37 Speaker 3: You know, it was a scheduled deal. We would have one, two, three troopers there and uh, and we would we would just have it. You know, it's kind of a scheduled deal. 00:04:45 Speaker 1: And always thought that was hype when I saw its signs, it's true and it works. Speeds monitored by air. 00:04:52 Speaker 3: We we would write on the interstates twenty thirty forty tickets you know an hour were just normal. 00:04:59 Speaker 2: Wo. 00:05:00 Speaker 3: We did we did that. We did a lot of uh like if the governor needed a ride somewhere, and we would, we would. We were the ones tasked with that, and I did. I stayed true to my roots and worked with these guys a lot, and UH did a lot of you know, night hunt activities. The highway troller. I didn't do that a lot of that until I coaxed him into to doing that. And so and I've actually worked some of these cases working we would fly rivers and stuff at night looking for all these croatures back when they were really hot and heaver kind of kind of when it was in its heyday. 00:05:32 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, wow, that's really neat, really neat. Lieutenant Joe. 00:05:38 Speaker 5: Yeah. So I'm Joe Alexander game Warden supervisor up in northeast Oklahoma. All the northern counties are kind of my counties, and I represent these these fellows here in the room and uh, you know, I've been doing that since two thousand and six and uh spent a little time in the police department before that, like my good friend Brent here, but we can't talk about that. 00:06:05 Speaker 1: There was a long secret information being traded between Joe and Brent earlier that that that I've not been able to. 00:06:12 Speaker 2: Man were like Mason's we got signs going over here than nobody. 00:06:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for being here. 00:06:20 Speaker 6: Yes, sir, I'm Cody Moore. I've been with the Wildlife Department since two thousand and eight. I was actually in fish Division for two years as the battlefish biologist for Oklahoma. And I've been in law enforcement since twenty ten. Okay, and I'm in Prior, which is forty five minutes north and east of Tulsa. 00:06:41 Speaker 1: Man, I gotta say I love Oklahoma. Oklahoma is like, is different than Arkansas. It's really it's it really is interesting. It's hard to articulate the differences in states. But if you go into Mississippi, like it's just different. You go into Oklahoma, it's just different. But I'm a big Oklahoma fan. Oklahoma feels like the West to me, Like when you cross into Oklahoma, you're actually kind of out of the South. You you guys would are you Southerners? 00:07:18 Speaker 2: Yes? 00:07:18 Speaker 5: Yeah, I would say so, sure. Yeah, Oklahoma's unique because it's so different the topography. You can you know, you've got mountains in one part of it, You've got deserts in another part. You've got the Ozarks. In one part of it, You've got the southeast, which is you know, rolling hills, beautiful country. Then you get into some swampy country once you get down in McCurtain County and stuff. So it's you know, we really got it all. 00:07:39 Speaker 1: You know, you're right on the the echo tone between the Eastern deciduous forests and the Great Plains, you know. I mean it's like you get like probably fifty miles like pure eastern deciduous forests or maybe more. Yes, yea, that is that about right? Yeah, and you kind of get like west of Tulsa and it really starts to flatten now and kind of naturally have less trees. I mean, is that about right? 00:08:03 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:08:04 Speaker 3: It's almost like it's kind of a hub with those ecosystems too, because I never had really thought about it, but like you were saying, like in the northeast corner, you know, you have oak hickory, and you get into cherry trees not like they have in Pennsylvania. But and you go northeast for ten states and it looks almost just like that. And then you get in the southeast corner and you have the delta that you know, you take off and it stays like that for several You get out west and you get into that that prairie and you take off west and go across ten states and they're not ten but you know, and it's just kind of it all starts right in Oklahoma. 00:08:36 Speaker 1: All of those yeffer, yeah, yeah, football teams aren't any good, but we're about to find out, as the guy from Arkansas, like, we hadn't won a game in like four years. Let's not talk about that now. It's so great to have you guys, truly is I got. I got to tell the story Brent that I told all these guys before we introduce everybody. I'm so sorry. 00:09:00 Speaker 5: I didn't think that he would let her talk. 00:09:02 Speaker 1: Yes, I should have. Hello. 00:09:09 Speaker 7: I walked in today and there was Brent, who I haven't seen in a while, and a room full of game wardens, and I thought the sting operation is up. I'm not sure what I didn't. I don't think you did it on purpose, but Brent's undercover work has finally got to f and them trading secrets isn't helping. 00:09:29 Speaker 5: It operation pour out the grease. 00:09:37 Speaker 1: It Actually, this is not a joke. I kind of thought Brent was undercover for a while. I truly did, because I was in a period of time. I was in a period of time when I was hype. I don't know why, because really I've just always been pretty straight laced. Now I'm not saying I have accidentally broken laws, because I have the the but it was in a period of time. And I'm also going to tell about what I did when I crossed into Oklahoma. But I was like hyper paranoid about all this stuff, and uh, Brent called me and he was just like, hey, I'd love to fill me. And I was like, this is this guy? Why does he have so much time? Why is he so willing to help? 00:10:22 Speaker 2: And uh, I'm too lazy to work. I like to be outside. 00:10:27 Speaker 1: No, but I gotta I gotta tell the story that that I already told you guys, so Misty wouldn't have heard it. When I first started baiting bears in Oklahoma, I was I was hunting in Arkansas as well, but crossing into Oklahoma and there were different season dates and uh and and actually this would have happened before season, so I didn't have my hunting stuff with me. But I remember one time coming from Arkansas, stopping at the state line, hiding a gun in the woods, and then driving into Oklahoma because I was so paranoid to be in a different state, you know, out of state tags, having a gun in my truck, going to a bear bait, and I just didn't want to deal with it. And so I hit a gun off in the woods, which sounds pretty suspicious, but I was just trying to be straight laced. And then I called one of these guys colleagues, and I told him. I was like, hey, I just want to be I just I just want you to know what's going on. I'm bait, I'm hunting in Arkansas and Oklahoma, and there's different season dates and when I go down there, I've got to go back and forth. And they were just like it's fine. They act like it was no big deal. I called the Arkansas guys too, and they were like, why are you telling me this? I Like, they were just like, there was like no big deal, you. 00:11:43 Speaker 8: Know, but a bigger deal to hide a gun in the woods. 00:11:47 Speaker 1: Yeah that was probably yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, who knows. But uh, well the man, So you guys are like paddlefish paddlefish experts in terms of law enforcement. You heard the you heard the podcast. I'd kind of like to just go around and just get your general impressions of of you know, obviously you know these stories, but just kind of I don't know if you have any background on Keith or or Jeff that which were those guys such great guys, just incredible guys. But what do you think about the podcast? Austin? 00:12:27 Speaker 4: I thought the episode was great. So a little bit of history. I moved into Craig County a couple of months after I got hired and transferred up there, and that was Keith Green's old county. That's where he worked his whole entire career, and he'd been retired at that time. So Day one, I get in the truck with Jeff Brown, who's he was the captain at that time, and the first thing out of his mouth is welcome to District one. Paddlefish is king. That's what people learn to work, and you did. That's that's what you had to do. That was primarily what we spent a lot of time on m M, so it's a I got to hear all the old war stories from from Keith and Jeff. Me and Keith have become really good friends. Super neat guy. Very interesting. You described me to a tee with him with his big smile after the sentence. Yep, yep, that's I'd heard all the stories about Keith before I had moved up there, and I had never seen him, so I didn't know what to expect. I thought he was going to be about six ' four, probably a big beer belly with a dip of snuff in. 00:13:39 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:13:39 Speaker 4: And when I knocked on his door that first time and he opened it up, I had to look down to him. He's a little bitty, scrawny guy. Yeah, But I mean he is wiry, and he's a very good wrestler. He's extremely tough. He's one of the toughest guys I've ever met. 00:13:55 Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe that. Now, why do you say that, like like tough and like is it from his hunting, Because that's what I picked up quick. Jeff gave us a little bit of a heads up. He said, Man, Keith is one of the best elk hunters that you know, he says, I know, but meeting Keith within ten minutes of talking to him, and it's not because he was telling me all his accolades. It's not like that. But you know, I just like read this guy is a is a master just outdoorsman. Yeah, nine year dogs. 00:14:28 Speaker 6: And so me and Austin have a joke that we really want to go l hunting with him one of these days. And keep in mind he's in his seventies and I'm thinking we still have another fifteen years before we can keep up with him. 00:14:38 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:14:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's he's sixty nine. Oh there, he actually corrected me, mister Keith, So sorry, Keith is sixty nine. I said he was in his early seventies. But yeah, he's he's he's longer. Yeah, sixteen years, Yeah, sixteen. 00:14:57 Speaker 4: He's one of the hardest working guys I've ever been around. You know, Jeff, Joe, Hank both can tell you that in every aspect of his life he was like that. He was all the way in, He's going to do everything one hundred and ten percent. He did his game warden job that way, he did the paddle for Center that way. And I don't think anybody else could have done that paddle for center and made it work the way. 00:15:23 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the thing that stands out about him, and I've told him this and that if you look at literally when he was working and even now, you could say the name Keith Green in eastern Oklahoma, everybody knew it. All the poachers knew him, all of you know, everybody, and he has that he and it was because of his work ethic, And it's one of those things that I've told younger guys. I'm like, if when you retire, if you can have name recognition like Keith Green, did you know? And I'm sure he told you he has a brother that still is a game warden okay with us and the Green Boys. You know, that's that's what everybody referred him to him as. But Keith was just he's just that kind of guy that that everybody knew him. And uh, and not always in a good way. I mean he caught lots of bad guys and and and you go work with him, you know. When I came on in ninety two, Uh, he was about two counties away, but I did every every day I could go work with him, I would and you would learn more in a day with him than you would with ten game warnings. Yes, that kind of guy. 00:16:30 Speaker 1: I appreciated a story that he told about his dad, you know, and it it it fits so well in with a lot of the stories that we've told here about you know, he just said, my dad, my dad was a poacher and and uh, and he he clarified more some things he kind of had to take out just for time. But you know, his dad wasn't wasn't a bad guy. It was just the time period. And and but but the fact that he he said that was such a important piece of his career, was understanding that just because somebody breaks the game law, they're not a terrible person. 00:17:07 Speaker 3: And uh. 00:17:08 Speaker 1: And that that theme, I mean, Keith, I never listened to Bargerags podcast, I'm sure, but that theme has been inside of so much stuff that we've done, and not even on purpose, like I've not set out to make that point to people. It just feels like it comes up and inside the climate of today, like with like extreme polarization, in every possible scenario, it's like either good or you are terrible. And it's like there's there's quite a bit of there's some gray area in there, not not gray with the law, not not not okay, you're not okay to break the law. That's not what I'm saying, but just in terms of you know, him saying you could be a decent person to make a mistake, but how how that informed the way that he dealt with people, which I think is good for us to hear about you guys, because I mean a lot of times game boardens have I mean, whether they earned it or not, the reputation is there that you know get you know, any law enforcement is just out to just tack people down to the ground, which is not true, right, I mean, I've not found that to be true in my life at all. 00:18:16 Speaker 2: You know. 00:18:16 Speaker 5: One of the unique phenomena that comes out sometimes in your podcast, like you were saying, is that when we start doing these investigations and they go for days on end, weeks on end, months on end, or maybe even a year, you know, you have a lot of time invested in these investigations and you really get into the weeds with these people as far as their you know, their habits, what they do, what they don't do. Sometimes you know, you're you're proven to a lot of information that's outside of the realm of wildlife, and you become you know, after a while, you get a glimpse into their lives and you realize that they're they're the same as you and I. You know, they they live their lives. It's just that they've made some choices along the way that has let them down this path that you know makes you, you know, have to come in contact with them. And it doesn't make them a bad person at all, if in fact, anything, you're you're more drawn into them as a as a you know, you I know, it sounds weird that you you care for that person after a while because you've spent so much time investigating and working on the case, and you know, in the end, after they've been adjudicated, it seems like, uh, you know, you want to keep And there's lots of folks that I've come in contact with the past that have investigations and things like that, and still to this day, I consider my friend just the same way that Keith, you know, saw Billy was the same way. Yeah, and uh, And it's just I think that's one phenomena as far, and I think it's in all in law enforcement. I don't think it's unique in game board work that you know, the more time you spend undercover or the more time you spend with someone or investigating someone, you know, you get a glimpse into that, into their line, and I just I think it's unique, you know. 00:20:00 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, So I hired on, I said, I hired On into Fish Division, right, and talking about Keith, when I met him, he was in game Ward and he was already moved over and he was running the Battlefish Center. So I started February first of two thousand and eight and the Paddlefish I knew nothing about. I'd seen Paddlefish before, but on February fifteenth of two thousand and eighties when the Paddlefish Center opened and they said go to Miama and you're going to be up there for three months, and I mean we were there from daylight to dark every day. Keith again, Austin said it, and you said it on the podcast last week that or I think Jeff Brown said that that program would not have made it without Keith. He was one hundred and ten percent. I mean I saw him wearing the same clothes day after day after day. Because like they said, nobody expected it to be like it was, right, but during this time, I always wanted to be a game wardening, being law enforcement. I'm hearing these rumors about Keith, And when you hear one or two rumors about a game warden or even any law enforcement, Okay, that probably didn't happen that way. But when you hear two hundred and you hear stories about Keith Green wearing a dress and a wig at the Miama Park because everybody knew him and he had to be undercover, and. 00:21:20 Speaker 8: That I wasn't there. 00:21:22 Speaker 6: I can't. I can't speak to being there. But I did see him at the Paddlefish Center one day. Some guys come in, and I believe the story about the dress and the wig because he was in an apron and came out and got his gun belt on in an apron because he was back there making caviar and he writes guys a ticket in the parking lot, and so I have to believe that there's some truth to the dress and the wig thing. For him to be under cover, is that. 00:21:43 Speaker 1: I mean, is that a true story? 00:21:47 Speaker 5: I know for a fact that he has worn wigs. No, I don't know about the dress part. 00:21:50 Speaker 3: I've seen. 00:21:53 Speaker 1: Anywhere. If he was dressed like a woman. Don't you smile at me? 00:21:59 Speaker 5: And he does have a smile. He smiles just like Apostle. 00:22:04 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, to digress a little bit, I can remember going over to his house the first time, and he was still a game warden, and his dad was there, and and he's one of the first guys I ever met that he like lived like this dream world that I wanted to be. And you know, I mean there over there'd be a pile of coner bear traps over here, and there'd be fourteen bird dogs running around, and and he'd talked about going fishing in his pond. But right that's literally right in his backyard. You know, that's just full of big fish and and he just he's he's lived that life and and not just normal size elk. He's not just I'm talking Boone and Crocodt elk all over his house. Yeah, and he was just I was just mesmerized by the I mean I can remember literally sitting there right now. I can remember walking into his house for the first time and thinking, that's kind of game warding I want to be. Yeah, when I grew up. 00:22:53 Speaker 9: Yeah, Yeah, he's hard to get ahold of it. 00:22:56 Speaker 4: I call him all the time, and uh like he doesn't answer and he'll call me back, Hey, Keith, what you doing all I'm in New Mexico turkey hunting. Or I called him after the podcast episode or the podcast aired. Yeah, I said, no, Hey, Keith, what did you think of the podcast? I thought you did a great job. He said, all, I'm doing pretty good. I'm down here to lose in. I just put a red fish in the cooler. He's all over all the time. He loves life. 00:23:19 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:23:20 Speaker 5: Yeah, Now those guys are probably he and his brother are some of the hardest working people you've ever seen. And it would be I know it sounds weird that, you know, it's hard to keep up with him, and we joke about that and all that, but it's it is the absolute truth. I mean, they will work circles around people. It's it's crazy how they're just I would hate to say infatuated, but they're just you know, they're they're hundred and ten percent, like Austin said, with whatever they're doing. And yeah, I fished with the with Larry and then before and it's and it just wears me out to be around them. But you have such a great time but those guys are just so intense and their their experts at their craft. Yeah it's amazing. Yeah, well it was. I just was with him for a couple of hours. 00:24:10 Speaker 1: But everything you're saying just it confirms what I what, I what I felt, what I was with him. But yeah, incredible guy. So our our well, Hank, Any anything stand out to you in the podcast. 00:24:26 Speaker 3: Like, uh yeah, so one one thing that really stood out that I had never heard I was with them when we caught wisherd that Oh you were there. Yeah, I was there. 00:24:36 Speaker 1: Oh man, I was gonna ask any. 00:24:38 Speaker 3: Crazy thing was though my wife and I we were we're driving, We're driving down to a ranch last night, listened and I kicked it on. We started listening. She was just mesmerized. She had never heard She knows all these players, but had never heard a lot of these stories. And I started listening to his story the first night. I didn't know about that, and I'm thinking that is nothing like what happened, because I it, I wasn't there for that night and I'm thinking this, there was like seven or eight of us, and so anyway, I realized when he said I let him go, I'm like, oh, this has been twenty five years ago or what. But yeah, you know, that was one of that night. I'll never forget it, and I'll it was one of those nights where I really felt like I was being a game warden. I mean we met, it was kind of I was called like at the last minute, not going to give you any details, meet us here, and we all drove down to you'd literally have to drive through about two counties to get to the backside of that area where those guys had put in. And I can remember walking through the woods there was I would say, trying to remember six or seven guys, maybe eight. We were walking through the woods, all camoed out the whole nine yards and thinking, like Keith said, that they weren't they would be taking out there later. And we heard that that that undeniable sound of metal chain hitting a metal boat. 00:26:08 Speaker 1: Now is it dark yet? Oh yeah, so you know they're going to pull out in the dark. 00:26:12 Speaker 3: Well, but the thought the thought was was that they were not. They would not be putting in there. You know, Keith was talking about they thought they were putting it in one place on the other side of the river, on the Wagner County side, and bringing out on the on what would be the east side of the river. It makes a big bend, but it's kind of north and south, but it's the east west part of the river. And we were on the east side and thinking that they would A truck was going to be coming in, so we were going to get all in position watch the truck come in and unload the fish. They're unloading the boat. When we got there, we can hear them unloading, and so Jeff and I were probably the youngest guys there. There was there was when when would this event? Ninety six fish and so we heard the boat take off to go run the nets, and so Jeff and I got tasked with basically hiking down the shore and trying to get a view of them. And we and I don't know if it's something that they mentioned, but we think kind of what happened was there's there's a long island that kind of obscures if you were on the other side of the river, you couldn't see, you know, it's a it's a long island that's really close to the to the east shore. We think they come up into that area to to process those fish. You know, they'd caught them wherever, and they'd come up into that area that protected you. You know, if you were on the other shore, if a game warden was on there looking over you, you couldn't have seen anything. You just saw a boat disappear. And then you know, thirty minutes later come out and we're watching them and I can't I was trying to remember last night, if what I could remember my mind eye on what if I can you know, I think Jeff may have had some We had binoculars and it was somewhat moon lit, and you could you could tell kind of what they have had lights. I don't remember seeing any like probably not these they just worked it in the. 00:27:59 Speaker 2: Dark and uh nets or were a snag they were nets Mitz gil ntz Yes, yeah. 00:28:06 Speaker 3: And uh and then it you know, this whole deal may have taken an hour, and we're on communication with Keith and we tell them and and they actually got back to the ramp before we could get back to before we could get there, you know, all the other guys were there and we were having to hike. 00:28:23 Speaker 1: Waiting and buy their truck. Yeah, so you had their truck. Yeah, they had them. 00:28:27 Speaker 3: They were caught, but that was kind of that was probably one of the first uh big captures. You know. There there were some other players and we could we probably get to that as the day goes on, but uh that that was one of my first experiences. I'd been out western Oklahoma and just gotten back into eastern Oklahoma and and and was getting re entered. It was like it was, I can remember it. 00:28:51 Speaker 1: So I was gonna ask if any of you guys knew Billy Wishard. 00:28:55 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so I don't know him. 00:28:58 Speaker 6: So I worked with him at thettle Fish Center. So, like I say, I started the first year there and uh me wanted to be a game board and I set lots of days for hours and he would explain why they picked when they went, the conditions that they would wait on, I mean the nights that they thought the game warden was going to be at home, curled up. 00:29:21 Speaker 8: Oh yeah. 00:29:21 Speaker 6: And as a matter of fact, it's kind of a funny deal. And I guess we can say this now. When he knew I went to be a game warden. The next time I saw him, he said, you know, I made two game wardens game warden the year in Oklahoma. He said, for a price, I may go back to Nett and make you game. 00:29:35 Speaker 2: So the stuff that he was telling you, Cody, I mean you used that absolutely absolutely. 00:29:44 Speaker 6: You know he talked about a real because there I don't know the boat. 00:29:47 Speaker 8: I wasn't there. 00:29:47 Speaker 6: That was heck, not to show Hank's age, but I think I was in the elementary school when that happened. 00:29:53 Speaker 8: But but they were. 00:29:58 Speaker 1: Thirty years old. I don't know what you're talking. 00:30:00 Speaker 6: They were using small boats a lot of the times. He said, they wouldn't even use a motor if they could help it, if they could just paddle out there. And he wanted a windy, cloudy night, sleep hail, you know the word nasty it was. And then the more time that they thought that a game warden was going to be at home by the fire was the day they would do that. And it's funny to hear him and Keith sit there because Billy talked about a lot of nights that Keith caught him but didn't know he caught him. Yeah, what do you mean, Well, like he talks about one night he had a guy that was a lookout and Keith drove up and there was a car backed into some weeds and Billy was in the back seat of I think it was a station wagon. But he was screening eggs in the back of that truck. Will He said, the headlights hit the car that he was in and he had that lookout and for whatever reason, he said, that lookout was wearing like nice clothes. And Keith got out and talked to him for a second and said, are you here to meet a woman? And he said yes I am. He said, well, I'll leave you to your business, and he got back in this truck and left, and Billy was screening eggs in the back of that car. 00:31:03 Speaker 8: Oh wow, it was funny to hear. 00:31:06 Speaker 6: You know, Keith never knew that he had caught him that night, but Billy's telling him those stories and. 00:31:11 Speaker 1: Wow, So what was what was Billy Wisher like? 00:31:15 Speaker 2: Then? 00:31:16 Speaker 1: Let me give it, let me frame the question a little bit better. Keith said, Billy had like sold caviare in New York. And then you hear that Billy was making a ton of money. It At first I just felt like, uh, I mean, he was just like a you know, for I mean, this is a term of endearment to me, so I can say it just like a like a dirt poor country boy. 00:31:39 Speaker 6: You know. 00:31:40 Speaker 1: But then it's like, well, shoot, if this guy had been doing this for years making half a million dollars, like maybe this guy's driving like nice cars and. 00:31:49 Speaker 6: No, I could take you to the house that he lived in and you would have never guessed it. 00:31:52 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:31:53 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, he just a just a good old boy. I mean, shut old, you know. 00:31:59 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:31:59 Speaker 5: He would remind me a little bit of Brea. Yeah, a little bit not you know, sure, no. 00:32:04 Speaker 1: Criminal looking at. 00:32:08 Speaker 5: No, he just a good old boy. 00:32:10 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 00:32:11 Speaker 6: He did talk about when him and his wife went and met some caviar buyer and I don't remember where it was at his big city, New York City or Los Ange, somewhere big, and they picked him up at the airport in the limousine and and all this stuff, and he was like country boy goes to the big city, as the lady described it, you know. 00:32:26 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, uh that that that part of the story surprised me. I didn't know anything about Billy. And uh, the fact that he he came back to work for the department, I mean, such a rare story. I wonder how many times something like that, I mean maybe never. 00:32:43 Speaker 2: It's like this crazy old movie you see where they the guy finally gets out of prison for being a safe cracker, and then the government sends a helicopter in there to the outreaches of Colorado when he's out there trying to fish, like we need you. 00:33:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, like in Rambo part two. Yeah, when they when Rambo's in prison and Colonel Troutman goes back to get to get Rambo and says, you're the only one who can do it. 00:33:11 Speaker 2: You're the only good John. 00:33:13 Speaker 5: We need you. 00:33:18 Speaker 2: But but Bill story. 00:33:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's wild. 00:33:23 Speaker 2: Because they did. They said they interviewed folks nationwide. Yeah, and they got the one guy that lit the fuse on the whole thing. Yeah, to work there. It's pretty it's pretty cool, Joe. 00:33:35 Speaker 1: What stood out to you any anything stand out to you in the podcast or just all stories you're pretty familiar. 00:33:41 Speaker 5: With, right, Yeah, No, it's it. I thought the podcast was great and and it you know, it it ended on kind of a cliff finger. I was like, man, I wish I could hear about ten minutes more. I think this is what did you want to do? What did you want to hear? Well, I wanted I wanted to hear you know, the rest of the story just like Russian snacks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because it it I know how it went, and I know you know, and it's there's a lot there. 00:34:07 Speaker 1: Well this this is a great place to tease the next episode. I've put a before you were here, I told these guys that we couldn't talk about Russians, and we happened to have a jersey here that says Russia. Yeah, so they've all been, they've all been. 00:34:23 Speaker 3: Uh, it's a reminder. 00:34:25 Speaker 1: Yeah, hey you guys, you guys are welcome to come back when Jeff comes in two weeks to do thender after Russian snack. But no, that's that's great. 00:34:37 Speaker 7: He talked about in the department there are a lot of skeptics. Were any of you one of the skeptics? 00:34:43 Speaker 3: And you know this, this is something I was thinking about last night. And that's kind of a remembrance. When we went to Wichard's house. You got to you gotta remember that this was unheard of us getting all of these process eggs. I mean, it's I'm sure it had happened, but it it never happened to me, and obviously I don't think it had happened to a lot of folks. And we had you know, we had lieutenants out of a couple of different districts, and we're all standing and I can remember being out in the yard at his house and looking at each other, like what are we going to do with these eggs? 00:35:18 Speaker 2: Now? 00:35:19 Speaker 3: You know, it's like, do we try to find a buyer for the state? Do we what do we do? And I truly listen to that podcast, I think there might have been that might have been a catalyst, you know, a segue for Keith, and Keith smarter than I am, he probably thought, you know, because we truly didn't know are we going to I mean, obviously we need to save them for evidence evidentiary reasons, but it was like we do we try to do something with them because. 00:35:47 Speaker 1: Like you're talking about on that first big. 00:35:48 Speaker 3: Guy, Yeah, the night we caught Richard, how many how much? Oh gosh, I don't remember, it was a boat load. I mean I would say three or four hundred pound, I don't it long as a bunch, and more at home and more at home. And and I had that thought after you said that, if I remember they were living in like a little mobile home at that time. Yeah, when we went to their house, that's I'm having to really reach back from that one. But it was, it wasn't you know, I don't remember it very well. 00:36:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, stand out in the yard. 00:36:23 Speaker 1: You know some of the commentary I got just in the last couple of days, and I maybe could have clarified a little bit more that this was the first program in the country to do this, and now a bunch of states have adopted this. And if just if you hadn't listened to the area, don't remember. You know, what we're talking about is the people donating eggs and then the state Game agency processes and sells the eggs basically on the global caviar market. And at the time, Oklahoma was the first one to do that, and today a lot of people are doing Is that right? 00:36:59 Speaker 6: No, Oklahoma wasn't the first to do it. They were the first to do it voluntarily. In Montana and North Dakota, they had a thousand fish limit and it was the law that you had to bring your fish to the table and cut the ox out of it. So there's a I don't know if I should have to cut this out. But there was a doctor Scarnekia from University of Idaho that was our consultant in Oklahoma to start that program, and he did it. He was up there in Montana and North Dakota working on there. But in the below Lake Sakakawea, I think, as how you've pronounced it some it's on the border of North Dakota and Montana, below the dam. That's the only place in the entire state that you can snag a battlefish the way I understand it. And when the thousandth fish hit the table, they sounded a siren, and even if you had a fish on you had to release that fish. The season was over. But every fish that was caught there had to go to that table, and that's what Keith Green and Brent Gordon, the other paddlefish guy, they use that as kind of a model. But we were the first state to do it voluntarily. You didn't have to bring your fish to the center, but up there you did. The law said I had to be checked in at that center. So yes, we were the first to do it the way we did it, but we weren't really the first to process eggs and sell them as a state agencies. 00:38:19 Speaker 1: I understood, So why aren't they still doing that today? And I didn't really get into it on this podcast. But so today that program is not is not going. It ended a few years. 00:38:32 Speaker 6: Ago COVID happened, and I know that that year they processed a lot fewer fish. And if you look at the amount of data they got over how many years was it fifteen years that they did that, there's enough data for the next one hundred years. It'll take them to analyze that. 00:38:52 Speaker 8: Truly. They don't need the as the day and there. 00:38:56 Speaker 1: Were the core mission of it was paddlefish research. 00:39:01 Speaker 2: It wasn't money, right, no, no, it wasn't. 00:39:04 Speaker 5: Now as a byproduct, it generated a lot of money. Sure, but the longer that program ran, the lower the the historical prices of caviar went. And so you know, it's a commodity just like corn or whatever. You know, if you think about it, and so you know the fluctuation and the price of beef for the price of corn, well, the price of caviar, you know, it fluctuates as well. And over time that has decreased. 00:39:30 Speaker 2: You know. 00:39:31 Speaker 5: When the program kicked off, caviar was it was like you know gold, I mean it really was. But nowadays, you know, you can buy caviar a lot cheaper than you could fifteen years ago. 00:39:43 Speaker 1: Do you guys like caviar? 00:39:45 Speaker 5: It's an acquired taste. 00:39:46 Speaker 8: Really, I haven't acquired. 00:39:48 Speaker 2: It acquired. 00:40:00 Speaker 1: You you like it? 00:40:01 Speaker 3: Hank, Yeah, it's not. I mean I don't crave it, but I don't mind Cracker. 00:40:06 Speaker 1: Can you understand why people go so crazy about it? No, you really don't know. Am I going to be unimpressed when I have? 00:40:13 Speaker 3: Probably? It's it's like if you think of the fishiest fish you've ever eaten, that's what it's going to taste like. 00:40:20 Speaker 2: You're out, misty out. 00:40:23 Speaker 3: If you're not into fishy fish, you're you're it's not you're not. 00:40:27 Speaker 1: Did you hear that guy from California describe Yeah? Oh yeah, I mean when he described it's just like, wow, that's. 00:40:33 Speaker 2: The way I describe what a baked coon tastes like. Somebody when they asked, I thought I could see myself in a little suit. 00:40:43 Speaker 1: Wah, little minerality. You taste the you can taste the ach earthiness. 00:40:50 Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, by the way, you soil. 00:40:56 Speaker 6: You talked to Keith Green and him and his brother They had to kick him out of the Problem System room a couple of times because they eat too much caviar and they say, well, it tastes like salty butter. Well, when I started, it was like eighty dollars an ounce country crock and some salt, whole lot. 00:41:13 Speaker 8: In caviar. 00:41:14 Speaker 5: Yeah, Keith said he loved it. Yeah, those guys they do. They enjoy it. And you know, it's like I said, it's acquired taste. And just like Cody said, it's you know, it would remind you of salty butter, maybe with a hint of fishiness to it. I know several times they'll have it at that when the processing center was up and going, you know, they'd have digg and taries and stuff come in and they would show off the paddlefish center and everything, and I just take a little, you know, piece of old square white bread and I'd take a big doll up and throw it on there and smear it on the white bread and eat that just like butter and bread. 00:41:46 Speaker 2: You know. 00:41:47 Speaker 5: Is that square square white wonder bread right there probably cost one hundred and fifty dollars, you know, but it yeah, you know, it's just a it's acquired taste. To me, it just tastes like butter, you know, butter. Yeah, it just has a real buttery, soft consistency. Have you had other Have you had sturgeon caviar? I've had an other caviar. I don't know if it was sturgeon, and it seemed to be a lot saltier than this type of caviar. 00:42:10 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So my brother and I eat it, eat it. What kind of caviar come out of a blue gill brim. 00:42:17 Speaker 1: Come out of Oklahoma? Brought over the state line. 00:42:19 Speaker 2: No, we was fishing down on the on the river, almost got him. We called them on my game. Bro. We caught a big mess of fish. 00:42:28 Speaker 1: And we tell that stuff in Arkansas, you know. 00:42:29 Speaker 2: Commercial story to tell Misty And this is recorded cleaning fish on the back of the river, fishing and fry them up, and it was springing of the year. And bought them the big old blue gills. They had a bunch of eggs in them. And my brother said, you know what caviar is and I said, yeah, fish eggs. He said, this stuff is expensive. He said, let's eat this. I said, all right, we're gonna eat it. So we pulled them out and throwed it on the side and we got was frying fish. We're gonna have that as a little appetite as before we got cooking the fish and potaters in there, so we but he said, how you fix them? I said, I don't know. I guess they put meal on them in fry. That's the only way I know to fix them. So we rolled them around in the fit in. 00:43:13 Speaker 1: The corner, still in the eggsact they were. 00:43:15 Speaker 2: They was fishing to come out though, Yeah, were tough. We dropped We dropped them in there for our or to start our or DIRV cooking, and them rascals got to popping like a string of fire fryers. It was hot grease coming out of there. We look like we've been attacked by yellow jackets when it was over with, really, but there was enough to survive that we took a bite of them and it was not pleasant. 00:43:37 Speaker 1: Well there's even fried. 00:43:38 Speaker 2: I mean it tastes like fried corn meal. But it was a little mush in there. 00:43:42 Speaker 3: The texture is not to be attacking person. 00:43:44 Speaker 5: You know, they weren't exactly processed. 00:43:46 Speaker 2: No, but you got to let me tell you y'all before y'all go to drop them in the hot grease, Because I know it sounds so appetizing, but I just thought, what you were safety glasses because there's some. 00:43:58 Speaker 3: Hot cooking bacon neked. 00:44:05 Speaker 2: I assume he. 00:44:07 Speaker 1: Cooking bacon neked. That's gonna be the next shirt. 00:44:13 Speaker 5: Shirts and cut that part. 00:44:19 Speaker 1: That's funny. That's well, I've never had it. It seems like, well, okay, this is my next question. Are there do you think there's people in Oklahoma that have Sometimes people see a trend and they just jump on it because it's a trend all of a sudden. I mean, like me, like if I went paddlefishing today and caught a big female like I would be wanting to process the eggs and I don't just try it. A lot of people in Oklahoma keeping their three pounds of muskegs. 00:44:48 Speaker 6: Most of the people and I can't speak for them that I see are using it for blue cat bait. 00:44:53 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:44:53 Speaker 1: Really, what are they doing put it in? 00:44:56 Speaker 2: Yeah? 00:44:56 Speaker 5: Exactly how they use it? 00:44:58 Speaker 3: Really? 00:44:59 Speaker 1: And they're not even even after yes, the state it's it's legal now you can use all of it for that up to. 00:45:07 Speaker 6: Ten pounds, and you can't have the eggs of more than one fish. 00:45:11 Speaker 1: Okay, on the podcast, did we say it correctly that you can only have three pounds of process. 00:45:18 Speaker 6: And that's if it's removed from the membrane. 00:45:21 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's processed, and that would be I mean you would have to have that in like your freezer. I mean that would be like nobody's processing eggs on the like in the field. 00:45:31 Speaker 5: You can process, you can screen them in the field like that. Yeah, but you got to do something with them pretty quick. 00:45:36 Speaker 2: Explain to me what when you're talking about screening, tell me how that was. 00:45:39 Speaker 5: So imagine a screen similar to a screen door, but it's you know, the mesh is different sizes. 00:45:45 Speaker 8: Tennis tennis racket. 00:45:46 Speaker 5: Now, if you sifted that sort of thing like that, yeah, it'd be like that. But that membrane you've got to and it takes a special gentle touch because you can smash those eggs, you know, and they screen that right through them, right through that screen and the eggs come through the bottom. And basically you're just removing that membrane that surrounds that sack of eggs. 00:46:06 Speaker 6: Okay, you know, and the membrane so there's a blood vessel that goes to every egg and that's basically what you're removing from it is pushing it through that screen and not hard. 00:46:18 Speaker 8: It's a gentleness. 00:46:21 Speaker 2: Austin is handing me a picture here, I guess from the field that he's taken and it's like about the size of like small rabbit wire, looks like like hardware cloth. But you would you roll, you take them out of the membrane and then put the eggs on that push them through and then you catch them in a bucket or something. 00:46:41 Speaker 5: Yeah, you've got a bowl with water underneath there that you're catching them in. And then you know, you have to use if you're processing them, you have to use special salt that cannot have any chlorine in. Some of the ones that use this stuff the most and process it that it's a lot of the best salt comes from Russia. 00:46:58 Speaker 1: Salt comes from Russia. 00:46:59 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, wow, I can show you some pictures of it. 00:47:02 Speaker 1: M interesting. 00:47:04 Speaker 2: Then you got it. I assume you keep it cool and you put it in the cool water. 00:47:08 Speaker 5: Right, so they basically they'll they'll drain them, you know, kind of like in a cheese cloth type deal. 00:47:14 Speaker 2: If you want to do, is it different like when and I'm sorry, what about you know you catch fish early in the year, blue gill and catfish, and you skin them and the eggs are real small, and they just turning yellow and they ain't got any blood or anything in them. Is it if you catch paddlefish that's got row in it? Is it good from if you got him? Or is it better a certain. 00:47:41 Speaker 8: November. 00:47:42 Speaker 6: I'd say November to the time they get ready to dump their eggs, it's good, okay once It's kind of a funny deal. And I don't know if Keith talked about the process or not. When they really start spawning good. The females that would come in, they've coated the eggs with like a membrane. And if they were to that point where they had coated the eggs in a membrane and started to broadcast their eggs, once you salted them they turned the milk. Something happens with that salt and whatever they were coating them with. If they were right at the point of spawning, they were not. You couldn't make them into kafarkhal prior to. 00:48:20 Speaker 1: That, so later you could you could have one that. 00:48:23 Speaker 6: And I couldn't tell you what that timeframe is, but a day maybe two days, when they were ready to do it. Something happened to those eggs. Where as soon as you put salt to them. It just turned to like a gray, milky mess. 00:48:36 Speaker 1: So, do you guys have any any good stories? 00:48:41 Speaker 3: Uh? 00:48:41 Speaker 1: You know, we just had this like kind of little highlight on Billy Wishart and and I know there's probably a bunch more any other unique stories of catching paddlefish? Guys? 00:48:53 Speaker 8: Sold you want me to tell the basketball story. 00:48:57 Speaker 5: It's probably one of the most reasons this is basketball. 00:49:01 Speaker 8: Basketball. 00:49:02 Speaker 6: Okay, Well, I think it was two paddlefish seasons ago, is that right? 00:49:06 Speaker 8: It wasn't last year was two years ago. 00:49:09 Speaker 6: I'm just out working and had some guides come in and I'm checking them as they walk off the boat ramp and this little I don't know how he was eight, nine, ten years old kid. As soon as I walk up to the family, there was nine of them. The kid immediately says, sir, we know, we know that we can't leave the state with eggs. Well that's that's a clue. 00:49:28 Speaker 2: I hate kids, Yeah, we love but. 00:49:34 Speaker 6: So you know me, I find out that they were from another state, obviously on the East coast, and uh, I've realized that the only reason that little nine year old kid knew what was going on is because mom and dad had been talking about that the whole way here. So we started checking into them, figuring out We ended up figuring out where they were staying, which is a place up on Grand Lake, a resort. Well that was probably an hour and a half from where I was at. So I called Riley Willman, one of our game wardens, up there, and I said, hey, do you mind driving up there? And I'm trying to corroborate whether or not they are staying there or not. I said, just run up there and if you see a white Dodge Duly pickup truck show up here in the next hour and a half, let me know and then we'll get the cavalry and we'll show up. 00:50:17 Speaker 1: So did they Were they suspicious to you other than that? 00:50:20 Speaker 2: No? 00:50:20 Speaker 8: I don't know, no, no, no, okay. 00:50:22 Speaker 6: So so Riley goes up there and he gets in the resort and he decides there's a little cafe at the resort. He just goes and gets him some French fries and he's eating. Well, he sees the Dodge pull in, and I told him hang out there until I get there, and we you know, we're going to watch him and see what they're doing and all that. Well, there's some kids playing basketball and the resort at the basketball little parking lot, and Riley goes out there and starts playing basketball with him. That's a good undercover deal. You know, he's in playing. 00:50:52 Speaker 1: Clothes, he's in plain clothes. 00:50:55 Speaker 6: He's playing basketball with him. And he said, within five minutes, this little kid, I'm guessing it was the same little nine year old. 00:51:02 Speaker 8: He didn't know that. 00:51:03 Speaker 6: He just saw some kids out there playing basketball. And he says, well, do you guys like to fish? Oh, we love to fish. That's why we're here. We've been paddle fishing. And me and my dad we love caviar and we have a bunch of it in our cabin. And so Riley has to go to the bathroom or whatever, leaves and calls me on the phone. He says, dude, you're not going to boa. 00:51:24 Speaker 2: What just happened. 00:51:25 Speaker 6: So we watched them all day. We watched them, you know, doing the process screen and eggs and all that. And then the next morning, we still watching them, waited on them. They loaded a brand new freezer they'd bought it lows in the back of that truck, plugged it in, and then they were leaving to leave the state. And I think seventy four pounds, and. 00:51:46 Speaker 8: They were all. 00:51:47 Speaker 6: We found out through the process of that that they had told some people that if they could get back home with it, they could sell. Then they packaged it in one pound containers. They could sell that for one hundred for four hundred dollars a pound. 00:52:00 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:52:01 Speaker 6: Wherever that where they were going back home? 00:52:04 Speaker 1: So you had to wait till they cross the state line. 00:52:07 Speaker 6: Though, well, you can't possess the eggs with the intent of leaving the state. Okay, so we didn't actually wait on them to cross the state, but a lot of time we wait on them to get they'll they'll pass the last exit and then on the highway. Well, there's no way they could say they were going to get off before they leave the state, and we stop them and do it that way. 00:52:25 Speaker 1: But wow, So that answer is part of my question. It feels like sometimes stuff comes like in and out of vogue of even being something that people try to get away with. And I wondered if all the publicity around caviar eggs and being illegal and all this, because you know, this has happened to a lot of other states too, you know, if people are still trying to get out of state with. 00:52:52 Speaker 6: It nothing like it was. I started up there in twenty eleven and that was the tail end of it. I'd say I got in three or four years, nothing like these guys did. But I know, uh, we've talked to some guys and obviously when I started to now, our regulations are a million times more strict than they were. And we I asked a guy one time that used to when I started, we'd se him ten times a year, every year, and I hadn't seen him in five years, and I asked him, why why aren't you here? And he was a Russian that you know, from Russia or one of the Russian speaking countries, and he said, you guys made it too tough on us. 00:53:31 Speaker 8: So whatever we did worked. 00:53:33 Speaker 6: You know, a lot of them have figured out that it's just not worth their time because the laws. 00:53:37 Speaker 8: Of yeah obviously changed. 00:53:39 Speaker 1: But yeah, interesting, that's a good story, and any other good Paddlevish bus stories. 00:53:46 Speaker 3: Yeah, we were in when you were talking about crossing the state line. You know, during that time, there were it seems like that I can remember there were about four or five names, most of them were family names that we would deal with that were that were in the paddlefish trade, the caviar trade. But one guy, actually he was kind of a solo and he we got on his track when he was coming up Highway fifty nine between the little town of Stillwell and Salasaw, there's a big hill they call it the Slide, and he had a camper load. The entire back of his truck was loaded with fresh water muscles. And I think, you know, looking back, even before my time, I don't know much about it, but I think that was kind of almost like a segue into muscle picking muscle keepers and we've we've gone you know, you know, the whole commercial end of it. You can't do it now. But they were so a trooper stopped him. He had actually broke down. Trooper comes in, talks to him and ends up getting a guy record to get him to the top of the hill and lets him go on. But he calls the game board and it's quoi, kind of like two o'clock in the morning. He said, hey, it's just kind of a weird deal. And so they end up they we ended up finding the truck and stopped him at when he crossed the state line at probably at Fort Smith and uh, and and and that was our that's the first meeting with this guy. He was kind of a bad element. He ended up, uh he was. There were several run ends with him, uh one, but it kind of all culminated with We knew he was paddle fishing and he lived over in the Wagner area, and one of our undercover guys had gotten word that he was going to be coming taking a big load of eggs out of state, and so we had then it was kind of the Feds were more involved than than they were on a lot of our stuff. 00:55:38 Speaker 2: But uh. 00:55:40 Speaker 3: Uh, our undercover guy was following him in this old Bronco and between Wagner and Salom Springs he turned off and would take a dirt road. Like fifteen times. We were on the phone and I was at sitting at Salem Springs like one of the first roads inside the state line in my game arden truck and waiting on him and this uh, this game board kept calling him. He's like, man, he's turned off again. I've lost him for a minute, and he would find him and and finally he got behind him about a mile out of Silom and he said he's coming, He's he's coming through and I stopped him about a mile into Arkansa and we got it. Finally got a pretty good prosecution on him that time. 00:56:21 Speaker 1: And he now what he had? 00:56:22 Speaker 2: Eggs? 00:56:23 Speaker 3: Oh, he had a hole truckload of processed eggs. Really. Yeah, we we ended up processing. That was the only time I've ever arrested him by an Arkansas So we we processed him at the Silent Springs Police department down there, Like what are you guys doing? So but uh, yeah, it was, it was. It was a memorable one interesting. 00:56:44 Speaker 6: So so the last part of that story, and I probably should have said this, when we stopped that truck, that little kid got out, the same little kid that had said we can't take eggs out of state, and the same kid that played basketball walked up because me and Riley were still in plain clothes driving unmarked vehicles, walked up to Riley and looked at his dad, said, hey, that's the guy we played basketball with yesterday. 00:57:03 Speaker 8: So we're not sure that kid made. 00:57:05 Speaker 2: It back to. 00:57:08 Speaker 8: Yes, we're looking for him. 00:57:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a long ride home for them. 00:57:16 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 00:57:17 Speaker 5: You got to love kids though, because they're you know, they're brutally on us. Yeah, you know, and sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. 00:57:23 Speaker 9: For dead kids and ex wives are a gold. 00:57:27 Speaker 1: I bet so, I bet so. That's wild. So where would this guy have been selling? Like, where are they selling eggs today? Do you think people just have little markets? It's like like they just like know people that you know. 00:57:47 Speaker 3: We that's some of the stuff we deal with. They're like fish markets too, and and some of the bigger towns that we were constantly getting tips on that guys are going out and and uh and and gathering up fish to take to these bigger cities, a bigger fish market. And I'm sure there's still a somewhat of them if I remember there. At the time he was going, they had an informant who actually had told us that he was bringing him to him in like Tennessee or Kentucky. So that's how we knew where that he was going to leave that day. And he left right on time, but it took three hours to drive. You know, fifty minds. 00:58:20 Speaker 1: You know he's being followed. 00:58:21 Speaker 3: You things I think this guy was. I'll tell you, I'll give you a little glimpse into him. He did his homework, he actually so, So we have two game wardens. I guess we two game wardens and one of them retired in Sequoia County of brothers, and one of them was was out of in another district at the time, but he went by. He somehow found out that their mother worked at loves at Weber's falls on I forty went in and said that he was an Arkansas game warden and that he I know these guys and started talking to their mother and getting information about how they do and you know, where are they at now? And and she we finally pieced again leak some information. Mama leaked some information. But he's just that kind of guy. He I mean, there was some criminal element, you know, and that's that's that's the thing I think that that that makes this so much different is that you know, I mean, you're always we're always dealing with the things you think of as a game board, and whether it's a guy taking a little you know, an extra deer or they're chasing a turkey. But these are guys that were exploiting the resource and uh, you know, and some of them were involved in a lot of other stuff outside of Yeah, if you knew, if we really knew, you know, if they're picking up eggs and selling them adleegally in four states over they're probably and telling what they're. 00:59:42 Speaker 5: Yeah, they're not selling these eggs to Walmart, you know they're there. There's with each little culture, you know, there's there's an Asian culture and there's an Eastern European culture, and these these cultures of people are embedded, you know, within these rural communities around the US, and there's these little mom and pop markets and things like that that you'll see that are very unique, you know, to that specific culture, and you would be amazed at what you could buy in some. 01:00:11 Speaker 3: Of those. 01:00:19 Speaker 1: You saying that reminds me of gallbladder stuff with bears. I used to get bear bait from from an Asian guy that had a donut shop, and I was buying the donuts from him, and I was real. I was never I never lied to him ever, but I never really told him exactly what I was doing, just bought donuts from him. And one day he was like, we kind of became buddies and he was like you what are you doing with this stuff? And I was like, man, actually bear hunting, and his eyes just lit up and he said he literally was like, can you get me some gallbladders, and man, I you I was telling all y'all how paranoid I was. 01:01:03 Speaker 3: I was just like, how much they were? 01:01:08 Speaker 1: How much money you got? I was just like stop. But he had no idea, Like this guy, I guarantee you he would have He probably would have bought anything. I would have sold it and never even dreamt that it was illegal. Like this guy probably didn't even know there were bears in America, you know, And and and in his culture was such something something that was sought after and valued absolutely. And but to us, it's like this criminal ring. That's that's interesting to me when you see how and not the foreshadow too much into the Operation Russian Snag, but some of that was going on there too. 01:01:47 Speaker 4: I think now that was something I didn't really realize when I became a game word, and is how much interaction you had with different cultures. You know, we interact with like the mong culture, the Russian culture, the Hispanic culture, and it's a it's a variety of people that we deal with on a day to day basis. And I have learned a ton about worldwide cultures just doing this job. And that was something I never even dreamt that I would learn doing this job as super interesting to me. 01:02:21 Speaker 1: Hey, go ahead and tell me your story about I told these guys, you know, we weren't going to talk about we weren't going to give away the give away, the punchline to all of this stuff. But tell me about this Russian jacket. Yeah. 01:02:32 Speaker 4: So me and Cody were down at Mazie Landing, which is a river access down there by Prior and we were watching paddlefishmen. It was paddlefish time and we had a guy come up on a boat and he had a It was a small violation. It wasn't what we were really after. It was something that we could give a verbal warning for and going down the road, and so we did. He was very very nice. We were nice to him. Interaction was done and we had left. Well, we were we were sitting over waiting on some other guys to come through, and he approached our vehicle and we stopped and talked to him. You know, hey, man, what's up? And he said, Man, I just want to tell you, like how thankful I am how you guys treated me. I said, well, you know, no, no big deal. You know, that's how we do it. And he said, no, you don't understand where I come from. They would have cut my hands off for a violation of the law. Like, well, we don't do that here in Oklahoma anymore. 01:03:35 Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, we wait until the second violator. 01:03:39 Speaker 3: We recently stopped. 01:03:42 Speaker 4: So, but he said, no, I want to I want to give you this. And it was a Russia jacket. 01:03:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. And what was this jacket? 01:03:51 Speaker 9: He was a coach for one of their national teams. 01:03:54 Speaker 1: Wow, So this was really meaningful to him. 01:03:57 Speaker 9: It was super cool. 01:03:58 Speaker 4: Cody's still mad at me about it because it was down in his county. 01:04:02 Speaker 1: Cody wanted it. 01:04:03 Speaker 8: I don't know why he picked him. 01:04:04 Speaker 1: You're not good in that jacket. Yeah, that's my size and everything. 01:04:10 Speaker 9: Yeah, it didn't even fit me. But it's great. 01:04:12 Speaker 3: Yeah, Austin has a knack for that. So our patch changed in four or five years ago from the one that that you have there. And and so there's this old game warden patch that's it's triangle shaped and it says ranger and I mean they're like hen's teeth. No one can get them. There's just a few. There's like one on the wall at headquarters and we've all seen them and just you know, always wanted one. He's setting at a restaurant and an old man walks in and Vanita che restaurant, a Chinese restaurant, and said, hey, an old game warden lived at my house and h left a bunch of you know, stuff up in the attic. He said, I was wondering if you want it. Austin's like, heck yeah. So he brings him an ike jacket, which is like our formal jacket. And Austin brings it to a to a district meeting, and it had had all kinds of old like policy manuals and all kinds of neat stuff in it. But we're looking at it. I stick my hand in the inside coat pocket and I feel something in it. I can tell it's a patch. And I pulled it out and it's a stack of those patches, Like how many were they're five? 01:05:16 Speaker 9: Four or five? 01:05:17 Speaker 3: Yeah, so very few people have that patch. Before I showed it to him. Before I showed him, I said, I get one. He goes, what's in there? I said, I get one. 01:05:30 Speaker 6: It's like he was kind of like where he's at right now. We were guarding the door. He wasn't gonna get out give it at least US three. 01:05:40 Speaker 2: Oh, that's what's evaluation times coming up. 01:05:45 Speaker 1: Oh that's cool, that's cool. So what are today's most common paddlefish violations? Because it's becoming more and more popular more, am I right? Or maybe not more and more. It's well, y'all tell me. Maybe I think it's stayed about the same for me. I'm starting to see a little uptick the last couple of years than what it has been My first year's up in District one. 01:06:10 Speaker 9: It was busy. 01:06:12 Speaker 4: We had a lot of paddlefish stuff going on, and it kind of slowly trickled down. 01:06:17 Speaker 1: Right now, I'm talking about just like general participation and snagging. Is that what you're talking about. Yeah, that's not necessarily illegal activity. 01:06:24 Speaker 4: And it was kind of tough because we had several years there where we had what one hundred and thousand year floods. Yeah, and that made access to paddlefish extremely tough. 01:06:36 Speaker 8: We need water for paddlefish, but not that much. 01:06:40 Speaker 6: When it floods out the parking lot, they can't even get there. 01:06:42 Speaker 4: Yeah, So that it kind of trickled down. Some of the most common violations we see is probably not tagging the fish after they catch it, not checking it in. So paddlefish in the state of Oklahoma, once you harvest one, you've got to check it in like you would a deer, turkey or berry anything like that. Yeah, and that's a common violation that we see. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's probably the most Yeah. 01:07:06 Speaker 1: Just not checking it. I mean, is it people that just don't know, or is it people just being lazy or just probably both? 01:07:11 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably So in the sport fishing realm, it's really one of the funnest things you can do in Oklahoma, you know, is to is to go paddle fishing. And like Cody said, you know, the water's got to be right, all the everything, all the moon has to align just right for it to be good. But when it's good, it's great. And like there's certain areas like up around the city of Miami, which happens to be the paddlefish capital of the world Oklahoma. They got a big banner there when you pull it in the town. Oh yeah, it's it's a big deal. There's a city park there and for years, traditionally, for years, i mean we're talking twenty five thirty years, that was the place to catch a paddlefish. And when when the flow is right, that's where they're lined up shoulder to shoulder, you know, just going out as far as the snap. 01:08:01 Speaker 6: The only place that I know of that has city ordinances based on paddlefish and it's what is it. If they're younger than twelve years old, they have to wear a helmet and a life jacket. So if somebody backlashes on one side of the river, a kid doesn't get knocked out on the other side with the four ounce away you know, yeah it's. 01:08:20 Speaker 2: From the east coast and put him out. 01:08:23 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, his dad's encouraging. 01:08:26 Speaker 1: It's hard for me to imagine what it would look like underwater if there's that many fish. I mean you because it's like if you can line up I don't know, fifty people, thirty people along a shore and they're just just yep, yeah, I mean it's a lot of fish. 01:08:46 Speaker 3: So another aspect of this not to get off course, but is uh that's becoming super popular. Is life scoping for them? Yes, they'll chase one fish, you know, and you know, you can tell a big if it's a big south and they'll they'll they'll go after. 01:09:01 Speaker 1: They call them souths. 01:09:02 Speaker 2: Yeah, really, what's a male called a male, a male, here's your son. 01:09:14 Speaker 3: Into my life. 01:09:16 Speaker 1: How do you how do you feel about live scoping. 01:09:20 Speaker 3: So on on a on a on a on a standpoint of most fishing, I don't. I mean, obviously, it's it has changed the game. On a personal level. I don't have any issues with I think it's I have one. I'll be honest with you. But for paddlefish, watching them, for paddlefish, you it's it's like, it's unbelievable. These guys will go changes the game, changes the game because like in the winter time, when they disperse and there's there's just one here and one there, you know, they'll come up into different areas and we're not chasing them on you know, we're out in the lake and they I've done it. You can go out, you can get on one fish and and the only thing that you and you can watch that weight. You can watch it drop down when it gets to the to the depth of fishes that you're stopping, you're reeling in maintaining that that depth. And then all you're having to worry about is if you're left or right, and if you got a guy good enough guy that most of them are not using them on the troller motor because they're wanting to make little tiny changes and see if okay, yeah we lost the lost the weight and and if you know, and they can tell okay, pull right, pull right, and it's it's like taking him. 01:10:26 Speaker 5: That's why you're seeing so many world records walking is because they're targeting those big fish in the lakes. 01:10:31 Speaker 6: Well, we had one guy caught three world records and like all those. 01:10:36 Speaker 5: Those fish that you mean, yeah, yeah, those guys in Keystone. Yeah, but you know, those those guys broke records. You know, it was almost like every month they were breaking the record. 01:10:47 Speaker 1: No. 01:10:47 Speaker 2: Our friends up in Missouri where we turkey hunt, they do this snagging Jason Martin's and yeah, well we were going to go with them. 01:10:54 Speaker 1: Yeah that one day. Yeah, yeah, man. You know it's we had a big discussion, uh several weeks ago on on the Meteor podcast about live scoping, and it's it feels to me like an argument when when it comes to technology and increasing the catch, increasing the ability to harvest an animal, catch a fish, you kind of start chasing your tail when you talk about the ethics of it, because where do you stop. I mean, because you can talk about I mean just technology. Any level of technology increases increases your ability to take wildlife. And so it's like where does that line stop? Because you know today it's live scopes. Well what if what if we said you couldn't use a pickup truck to hunt or fish I mean. 01:11:45 Speaker 3: Foot? 01:11:45 Speaker 1: Like that that's ethical is that you leave from your house on foot. I actually heard a guy make that argument one time, and I was like, that's a pretty good argument. I mean, you know, you know, basically he was proving a point that like where where is? 01:11:58 Speaker 8: And then you know you're. 01:11:59 Speaker 3: Really hunting with the aid of a motor vehicle every time, not by law, but you are using it to ax. 01:12:06 Speaker 1: I had a guy, a good friend of mine, t L. Jones and East Tennessee. He's a big bear houndsman. They used hounds to hunt bears in East Tennessee and he he he and I talk a lot about ethics of bear hunting with hounds and all this stuff, and he's like Clay, he said, well, he would say it way better than me. But basically he's like a guy tells me that I can't go out of my house and and that I'm lazy for raising bear hounds three and sixty five days a year. My family for the last three generations has done this. We dedicate our lives to it. And then he jumps in a pickup truck and drives two thousand miles to go elk hunting, you know. Yeah, And he's like, and you're telling me that I'm using using some artificial means. 01:12:47 Speaker 2: To anything above him and something up and choking it to death with your bare hands is exactly is using technology. 01:12:54 Speaker 1: But live scope of paddlefish. That's pretty close to the line. 01:13:01 Speaker 3: Even on crappie. You know. We we've got probably everybody in this room would argue that our best guide on Grand Lake, and he's he's unbelievable. And he will tell you that if I could take twenty guys and could show him to God to life scope as good as I can, we could catch every big crappy on this leak, every single one of them. But the problem is he doesn't, and most guys don't. You know, most probably are idiots like me and just have it and kind of know how to use it, kind of don't and go once in a while. But it's definitely changed the game. Yeah, I don't think we've seen whether and on paddlefish. I think it's it's a different level. It may be something we have to look at as as really. I mean I just on on a personal level, I just not immediately, but it's not been talked about, but it's it is definitely on a different level of of the technic of using that technology. 01:13:51 Speaker 1: And what about them harvest and being able to target these big ones. Is that is that good or bad? Because a lot of times in like big game management, like if you're able if you take out these older age males, you know, that's a that's an animal that can be taken out without hurting the rest of this system. 01:14:09 Speaker 6: I don't know with with a so paddlefish or broadcast spawners, Right, we're gonna have the female come lay her eggs and we call. 01:14:19 Speaker 8: Souths. 01:14:20 Speaker 1: It's the bores that make a little little baby spoon bills. 01:14:23 Speaker 6: But then you have you know, twenty males come bye and and broadcast over the top of them. If you're doing away with that female because they're obviously bigger, there's no doubt when you look at a south, Yeah, there no doubt. 01:14:37 Speaker 1: There's no way to differentiate on a live Scantwin. 01:14:39 Speaker 6: And the guy that he's talking about, he can tell you that even in the depth of the winter, the coldest of the winter, you can go in some of these deeper holes on the upper ending Grand Lake and uh, you can see the female. She's you know, twice as big as the males that are all surrounding her. They're waiting on her to go up up river and they're going. 01:14:59 Speaker 8: To target that bigger fish. 01:15:00 Speaker 6: Obviously, that's what everybody wants, a big fish, big buck, big big bear or whatever. 01:15:06 Speaker 8: I don't know. 01:15:07 Speaker 5: Where we go, we are seeing some of those being caught, captured, pictures, taken, and released. 01:15:15 Speaker 1: So there catching the release culture at all. 01:15:19 Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah. 01:15:21 Speaker 1: Is most of the snagging are the fish able to be released? 01:15:24 Speaker 8: They said. 01:15:25 Speaker 6: So they did a study in Oklahoma back a decade ago where they I think they caught like thirty fish, put tags in them, snagged them, recorded the time that they had took them to get them in and the stress level and the temperature and all that stuff. I think they caught thirty and then they went back like a month later to see how many of those made it. And I think, now, don't quote me on this, I think twenty nine of those had made it a month later. 01:15:46 Speaker 1: So pretty high percent. 01:15:49 Speaker 2: Never thought that. 01:15:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well the way they the way they described like the leathery skin and cartilaginous, it feels like they're pretty durable. 01:15:59 Speaker 5: Yeah, have you ever? 01:16:00 Speaker 8: Never have? 01:16:01 Speaker 2: Really, I never. 01:16:03 Speaker 5: Can fix. 01:16:04 Speaker 1: That's where I was about to go. 01:16:06 Speaker 8: You cut me off. 01:16:07 Speaker 1: No, I would, for real, I would. I would love to go at some point. 01:16:11 Speaker 6: And that that that catch and release culture back whenever you were working, you caught your first three, And they did that to keep people from targeting the females, right, because you will have to wait through a bunch of males to get a female. You had to catch the keep the first three, and a bunch of those guys didn't want to keep them. They just wanted to go and catch them. And I wasn't around them. But they say that those guys would drive a mile down the road and dump all the fish in the bar ditch because they had to keep them. 01:16:34 Speaker 8: They couldn't throw them back. 01:16:36 Speaker 6: So they changed that where catch and release and barbloss hooks so that you're not tearing them up as bad to get barbleous. Yea, And that way guys weren't gonna dump them down the road in a mile. They could at least throw them back in the river and they had a chance of making it so brand. 01:16:53 Speaker 1: Have you ever caught a paddle fish? 01:16:55 Speaker 2: Yeah? 01:16:56 Speaker 1: If you soald some eggs across state lines too, Yeah, no, had. 01:17:00 Speaker 5: We've been in there. 01:17:03 Speaker 3: What did you think of the dining experience? I didn't like it. 01:17:07 Speaker 1: It's you very chewy Yoh you ate a paddlefish? Yeah, this is only after you took that. 01:17:13 Speaker 2: No. This, I was actually in college Goods and I run the radio on the weekends at the police department. Warned at the dispatcher and we had a trustee there who was his parents. They come from a family commercial fisherman and every Sunday they come over and have a visitation where they bring fish. And I was working on Sunday and we ate. We had a fish fry to jail every every Sunday. And while this fellow was in jail, and they brought over some Oh. 01:17:41 Speaker 1: This guy's in jail. He was family. 01:17:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they'd have visitation on Sunday. But they want ask me one day because I was running the show man. I'm nineteen years old, I'm the boss, Like, can we fry fish out here in the parking lot. I said, you know what you show can if you got enough for me. 01:17:58 Speaker 5: Isn't it? 01:17:59 Speaker 2: So they bring it, they bring it over them. They fry fish, and they brought some, brought some of that over there. I didn't like it. And it was just fried up, just like you fry catfish. It was just a real rubbery. It's chewy. 01:18:11 Speaker 1: That have you all had it? 01:18:12 Speaker 8: When it's pretty, when it's. 01:18:15 Speaker 5: Edible, you know, you can slice it up and fry it, just like catfish and everything like that. It's not bad, hot out of the grease. You do not want to eat it the next day, that's it for sure. 01:18:26 Speaker 3: Super good. 01:18:27 Speaker 1: What fish do you want to eat the next day? 01:18:28 Speaker 5: Well, you know, I'm eaten crappy the next day. 01:18:31 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it's all right. 01:18:32 Speaker 5: It's good, it's all right. 01:18:33 Speaker 6: But they're like a swordfish, is what I've had. I've only had swordfish one time. But you can cut them up and eat them like a steak. They're not flaky like a crappie or something like that. And a lot of guys will smoke them or cook them like a steak. 01:18:45 Speaker 2: You get it lit. 01:18:51 Speaker 5: Once you get the skin off of them. You can. You can, actually, they're really easy to skin. And then you've got this big chunk of fish in the middle, you know the car legends. There's no bones and you can just slice it like steaks. And I've seen guys smoke that used it on smoker and stuff like that, and they say it's yeah, and they say it's pretty big, that sort of stuff. 01:19:13 Speaker 2: That was pretty cool pulling that. Pulling that, Yeah, it made a ring around the tail. They had his head cut off and a ring around the tail, and they twisted that tail and right out. Yeah, it's pretty cool. 01:19:29 Speaker 5: You might have a four foot fish, but that thing might be eight foot long when you pull it out. 01:19:33 Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, stretches out. 01:19:36 Speaker 1: Interesting. Well, guys, thank you so much for coming. Really appreciate it. Austin, thanks for tapping me into this story with all these with with all the connections and pleasure to have you guys. Thank you for thanks for what you're doing. Thank you for your service to our wildlife resources and the people of Oklahoma. Misty, do you have anything you'd like to say? 01:19:59 Speaker 2: Nothing. 01:20:00 Speaker 5: He's giving her a chance to talk. 01:20:02 Speaker 8: Like you said, he didn't let her talk around. 01:20:04 Speaker 2: He's the end of the show. Oh got it, he's got he's got to live here once. 01:20:08 Speaker 5: He's got to make amends. 01:20:09 Speaker 7: Now thinks I'm being forced to speak. Oh thanks for coming out to the to the house. It's good to see y all. Good to Thanks for sharing the story. It was a good one. 01:20:22 Speaker 5: We appreciate the hospitality. We appreciate what you guys do for the outdoors. You do you shine a light on the country way life and uh we appreciate that. 01:20:30 Speaker 3: Yeah. 01:20:31 Speaker 1: Well, stick around next week for uh bump bum Operation Russian Snag. Thank you guys, Thank you so much. 01:20:40 Speaker 2: Thank you. 01:20:40 Speaker 5: Let you click

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