00:00:00 Speaker 1: M how many times have you been bit by a poisonous snake? I really didn't keep count. I don't know why I'm guessing. On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast, we've gone absolutely wild. As we discuss the original human fear serpents and their bikes. You'll meet a man who's been bit so many times by venomous snakes he's lost count. We'll have an enlightening conversation with the nationally recognized herpetologists about what he calls America's rattlesnake and what to do if you get bit, And we'll hear a story you wouldn't believe unless you heard it from the person it happened to, a story of tragic loss and overcoming fear. You're not gonna want to miss this one. What do you do if you get bit by a snake? The first thing I'll do is tell you that you should have planned to not get a fight and and I say, that doesn't can't you can't tell me that? My name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived their lives close to the land presented by f HF Gear, American made, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore. The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day, he asked the woman, did God really say you must not eat of the fruit from any of the trees in the garden. The Lord God asked the woman, what have you done? The serpent deceived me? She replied, that's why I ate it. Then the Lord God said to the serpent, because you have done this, you are cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild. You will crawl on your belly, groveling in the dust as long as you live, and I will cause hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will strike your head and you will strike his heel. This is from the Bible, in the Book of Genesis, chapter three. This ancient text is fascinating. It highlights the long standing relationship between mankind in a very particular wild beast, one that has become a defining feature of the human experience. I believe this story has significant meaning. It holds within it the foundations of a human world view, and it's ripe with unbendable biological reality. Humans flip out when they see a snake, well at least most of them. Well, you know, I didn't really get into woods heavy till I was like seven, and so I created a little bucket list of things that I wanted to accomplish, you know, turkey hunter, deer hunter, bow hunter, and I wanted to get involved with a big rattlesnake, you know, one way or the other. I just I've heard so much about him, and this is my dad, Gary Nucolm in a lifetime of searching for the mythical black panther inside joke from episode one, He's kept his eyes on the ground looking for acorns and big rattlesnakes. His fascination with nature and curious spirit tutored me into a lifelong fascination with snakes and acorns. He was ahead of his time by proclaiming a don't kill snakes policy long before it was. So I'm out in the National Forward actually wasn't, as it was warehousing land driving around and I was on a real straight road and I looked down the road. At a time I thought a quarter of a mile. It could have been two hundred yards. But I saw a log across the road, and I was already anticipating going over that log. I thought, man, I wish I could get around that thing. Well, I got up there, and it was a diamond back rattlesnake that somebody had killed and then cut the rattlers off. So this was a snake that I wanted to get involved with one way or the other, probably at the town. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And so you know, I'd love to have had the skin. I'll be honest with you. At that time, you know, you didn't hear much about that kind of stuff. So I drove up on it and kind of went around it and pulled my jeep over and open the door and looked at this sucker, and I mean cold chills went up my back. I could not get that snake, man, I mean I just had so you were gonna get out and take it? I was gonna get it. Yeah, I was gonna take it. And and since the guy had taken the head and rattlers, you know, I thought, well, I'll just take the hide. I couldn't touch that snake. But but I mean it was a big one. I mean it was huge. You know, it's hard to tell, but i'd say at least five feet and maybe bigger in a whole lot, bigger than the biggest timber rattler I've ever seen, and I've seen one or two really big timber rattlers. In fact, one of them was as big as you'll ever see. Well, you told us that story when we were kids, and I could have told that story word for word, just the way you told it, and so that that impacted me. That put a value system marker inside of my head that there's value on a big rattlesnake. And then how you responded to it, you know, just like it. The visual look at that snake just scared you. Well, you know, uh, it's it's almost biblical the impact it has on you. You just wonder how how I can see a bear in it? In it? You know, I respect it, but I don't scream and holler and jump back. But I see a snake, and I mean my first reaction is is automatic. It's a verbal outcry and a movement to the rear. Let's talk about getting bit by snakes in the next two interviews, we're gonna hear from some snake bite victims. I'm always very interested in the exact detail of every snake bite that I hear about. You'll recognize this first voice when you hear it, and you probably won't be surprised that this guy has been bit by a poisonous snake. I'll give you a hint of who it is. He's wearing overalls. Brent Reefs, Why does it not surprise me that you're the only friend I know that has been bit by a snake alongside having seen two legitimate mountain lions. Tell me, tell me about what year did you get bit by snake? We'll say I was nineteen years old, so it'd have been about nineteen. Where you tell me this story? Where are you at, what happened? And what kind of snake was it? Give me the whole spield. Me and a buddy of mine had been and we were going to look at a boat, an old illuminate boat that we were going to buy and get rich in the Duck Guide, Business Guide and duck Hunters. It turned out good, it did it? Actually did? Actually you were a successful duck guy. Carry on for about twenty six years. But I digress. We had gone to look at this boat, and we were going back and we were almost to the house. Out of nowhere, this big carpet head is crawling across the middle of the gravel road. I said, stop, man, that is a huge copper head. Let's catch him. He stops. We get out and I go back to the back of the truck. We run over him, you know, not we straddle him, I should say, and stop. So and when the truck goes over, he calls up in the in the road, and so I'll go up there and I put my foot. I even remember what I had on. I don't a pair overalls, a T shirt and a pair of high top converse. Yeah. I replaced the converse with crocs because they're easy to tie. But I would I put my foot on this on his head, you know, and I get his head. He's just barely sticking out from ut of the bottle of my foot, so I can reach down and grab him and have control of his head, and I don't get bit. Well, you know, there's a gravel road, and I was standing on top of a rock that was beside this snake's head. So I really was exerting no pressure on this snake's head. So when I stuck my hand down there in my left hand for some reason, he turned around and bit me. And it was like, how did that happen? And I stepped back and I told my buddy Wayne. I said, Wayne, he just bait me. He said no, he didn't, and I showed it to him and a little blood started to come out. He said, oh, my god, you're gonna die. Brent went to the hospital, received two vials of anti venom, and stayed overnight, but was no worse for the wear. He just learned a good lesson. Snake bites in the United States aren't all that common, at least if you believe statistics. Around five thousand people get bit each year, and relatively few die from snake bites in this country, but not so in other places. Worldwide, they're over five hundred venomous snakes, and to be accurate, you should say venomous, not poisonous. Estimates are hard to calculate, but it's believed that as many as a hundred thousand people die each year from snakes, many of them in Africa and India. They have some ridiculously deadly snakes in these places much more dangerous than America's snakes. The Russell's Viper is a bad boy that lives in India and Asia, and the puff Adder and black Mamba are the culprits in Africa. Everybody has a different answer for what is the most poisonous snake in the world. Some say it's the Eastern brown snake in Australia, some say the Belcher Sea snake living around the Indian Ocean. Others say the inland taipe han in Australia. It's almost impossible to nail down. However, the most venomous aren't the ones causing the most deaths. It's a complex equation based on numbers of humans and how their lives over lap with snake habitat, combined with access to modern ana venoms, and therein lies the real issue. Access to ana venom in many places is a real problem. You should research this. You're about to meet a very unique human who resides on the outskirts of human tolerance of the original fear. Mr. Fred Lally is an unusually vibrant and energetic man for his age. He looks fast and wired. He's a swift and accurate judge of character. After decades of living on the road, you'll have a pretty good beat on you after making eye contact and exchanging a few words. I found this out when I pulled off the road, walked through his yard and introduced myself to him. He was digging worms for a fishing trip. For the last fifty years, Mr Fred has made a living traveling around to America a fairs, carnivals, and festivals with an exhibit called Lally's Oddities. He's got a trailer full of head scratching and even disturbing biological rarities that at one time included two headed rattlesnakes and turtles, and eight legged pig and the skeleton of a two headed monkey. But he specializes in venomous snakes. But first I'd like to make a disclaimer. I'm extending some trust to you all and a favor by letting Mr Fred tell just a small part of his incredible life story. We talked for a couple of hours. The casual nature in which he handles getting bit by venomous snakes isn't normal, nor is it advised to take medical advice from this section. Later we'll swing the pendulum back the other direction. I want you to meet my friend, Mr Fred. Mr Fred, tell me about tell me about your relationship with snakes. It really started, I guess when I was ten years old. My daddy died and I was a lot freer than to do what I wanted. That means even venomous snakes. Well, the pigmy right where wasn't numerous? Copperheads were fairly numerous back and this is in the early forties. Well, actually this was after my dad. How old are you, Mr Fred? Eight years old? And you where did you grow up in Louisiana as specifically around Puncha Toola, Hammond, which is about fifty miles north of New Orleans. So you started catching snakes and you just liked snakes, just liked them. And now you got bit when you were young though, yeah, I think it was thirteen. Tell me what happened. Well, it was a pigmy righter. I shot a squirrel and I was butchering it down, force feeding the little pigment ratler. I didn't have anything that was that he would eat, but I do that a lot some achs. You wouldn't have to force speed him a couple of times and they realized what you put in their mouth is food, they'd just go and eat it. Now, the pigmy rattlesnakes like a lot of rattlesnakes. They're an ornerary type. Their broncos. The pigmy rattlers are yeah, now, the pigmy right. I never had any attempt, even as a youngster, to try and calm them down to where you could just freehandle them. And I read an article in a True magazine. The True magazine was nineteen forty seven, and it was about Grace Olive Wiley, the California snake Lady. Oh my god, that woman didn't matter what it was, and she called it teams. I'd use her techniques after I read that. I was probably eleven or twelve when you read that, when this pigmy rattler bitch, he bit you on the hand, yeah, I turned my head to get the second leg, the leg, yeah, and he had already sw at the first one. I put it in his mouth and partially shoved it into his throat. Then I'm back off, and I'm holding him a lot. You're holding him by the neck with one hand and feeding him a squirrel with your other hand, and uh, as I turned my head, and like I said, I loosened my grip on him a lot. Well the thing was gone now, first bite, and we didn't Is that what happened to your hand? Oh lord, No, no, no, it wasn't hardly anything. The first bite would prove to be the beginning of a lifetime of handling snakes. You heard him mention that that finger is gone. Well he's missing a ring finger in a fair chunk of his right hand. But the pigmy rattlesnake didn't have anything to do with that. Later he'll tell us what happened. Back to Fred, although I had anaplectic shock from that ceremon I wasn't Did they take you to the hospital? That would have been in the forties, did you Did you know I made a mistake? I did say the authorities. It was definitely fifty three when I was bitten by the snakes and they gave you some anivenum without testing. The doctor just panicked and he didn't test to see if I was allergic to it. It's made from a horse serum, you know that bit and all, and there's quite people are allergic to it. And I was highly allergic. I mean he gave me the shot. Within thirty seconds, I passed out. My poor mother saying there obviously thinks the rattle snakes doesn't kill me, you know, normally snakes. God, so well, you'll probably delete all this. I got bitten enough between the cotton mouths, just one copper head bite and different kind of rattle snakes, quite a few of them, and a few other exotics. It's not nearly as bad as even doctors, your general doctor. They think it's perhaps life threatening. When I say perhaps more than likely, it's almost because they they don't know how to treat them. Mostly, you're gonna tell me a snake that they panic. M hm, Well, yeah, how many times have you been bit by a poisonous snake? I really didn't keep counting, really, I mean, like like more than five. Oh, definitely, I tried to somewhat count up. I don't know. I'm guessing twenty, give or take one or two of that, right, twenty poisonous snakes. Okay, so you you started collecting and handling snakes when you're young, and you've done that your whole life pretty much, So tell me about the first time you got Have you been bit by a timber rattler, cane break, timber rattle, same thing. Yes, tell me about what happened there? How hard somebody new to help me. And as I was traveling setting up a shopping sounds at that particular time. This is in the early seventies and the cane break oh down in the Panhandle of Florida. Going along, You're in state ten, hitting towns about every miles, going into different shopping center, setting up. I got bit. I'm trying to think which hand it was. Then I got bit on my left hand, which is unusual, and it nailed me pretty good. It started swelling pretty good, got up to about here swell and started going back down and then it started retreating. Well, I mean, I'll continue work, and it doesn't seem to bother me that much, really, you know what I mean. I've had quite a few bites by that time, some of them bad. It started going back down, and you didn't go to the hospital. Oh, absolutely not h You just kept working. Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't want something put out that this is not bad, and I don't want to put this out that you become immune to it. But your body does build up and a body where you ever bitten, like just out in the It wasn't always when you were messing around with your pet snakes. No, because Alton the wild is my favorite thing is going out even catch them and turn loose. That's my golf, you know what I mean. It's just gonna be starting off somewhat of a fun day and I'm gonna go down to New Orleans to see this animal dealer. On the way there, he asked me if I pick he wanted some cotton mouse, And that was kind of the off season when but I'm going through a swamp of thirty something miles to go to New Orleans. And there's an old highway right next to the newer highway and that old bridges they hang out there, and I usually anytime I go there, the six of this bridge, but six of the next bridge, and it might be a seven or eight mile stretcher where it's real headed. Every every bridge, it just slews it going to the road. So I can take you cotton mouse. Probably that trip down it might take me two hours. But I had on good shoes and there was one spot he didn't want any water snakes. By saw this water snake. It slides into the water. And I'm going across this old log this land there in the mud and slop very little water about that deep. And I'm up on that walking slow, and I saw I'm going to the the water. I knew where he stopped. He stopped right there. So I walk pretty much that area, and I saw his back sticking up out of the I caught him. Didn't pay any attention is to He was just getting thorn away, biting out of me. I get by the water snakes ever really vicious about biting, biting, biting, And I look down, I see that broadhead of that cotton mouth, and it's done bit me three times on you thought you were picking up a banded water snake picked up a cotton mouth, Yeah, I saw it right there. So I just slung it. I mean, yeah, I just I used to. I just slung it. I kept it. You weren't worried about that water snake biting you, Oh no, just you just figured he'd hit you a couple of times. Yeah, I was getting ready of slinging. So so what did you do? You got bet three times in the arm, by in the hand, in the hand. Yeah, it was in between these two things on your right hand. So anyway, well it's on the way, maybe go to the hospital and maybe have something done, because I'm still young at this point, and I mean it was maybe a bad bite, really bad, So I'm thinking about going to the hospital. I'll go to the emergence room and sit there a while, if you know, I'll be at least yeah, I start feeling you. I wish I had time for you to hear the whole story, but it went like this. He goes to the e R and asked to just sit in the waiting room to see if it gets bad. The doctors said, no way, we're giving you the an event. Mr Fred denies the treatment for financial reasons, but also because of his allergic nous to an event him. He then takes a taxi to another hospital, where they allow him to wait it out in the are They offered to take him in an ambulance, but no, sir, not Mr Fred. The taxi was a more affordable way to travel. He never received an a venom and later just went home. Mr Fred, what does it feel like to get bit by a snake? Can you describe that to me? There's a similarity of the same thing to all of them. The actual physical aspect of their things going into your skin and all. It's it's all negligible, not much to it at all. It deals more like sometimes you catch yourself on a brawer. Even you feel a little bit, but it's not no big deal, you know what I mean, nothing big at all, and or wasp. When it stings, you have instantaneous hot, searing pain sometimes, especially the big old red wah. Well, they put a wall upon you. Only one time that I experienced something like that. I got bit on this thumb here. It's messed up a little bit thinking. They doesn't grow straight, it bends over and I've got different sensations to this day. That's messed up from nerve damage. It put a thing in onto there and gave me a pretty good wall. Oh it hurt. So typically, what does it feel like on a normal snake bite? Like you you feel the impact, but then it kind of just moves up your arm tensions swelling. The swelling starts producing a lot of uncomfortable pain, deep aches or setting in. I know, it's kind of gradual. It kind of just starts creeping up your yeah, yeah, a lot of swelling, yeah, and then discoloration some have more discoloration than the others. I'm not sure what causes that. Why don't why don't you tell me specifically what happened to your hand? Now? Which what kind of snake did that bite? A big Western diamond back a little of five maybe, and they had to cut off on your fingers. Yeah, and I told him going to cut this finger off too at the time. See this finger was ruined one from another bite. Can can you tell me all the different types of snakes you've been bit by? I mean, let's just walk through them. Well, like I said, cotton mouth, copper head, rattle snake, even the coral snake. It was a drawd bite. I don't think I got one bitter down on Karma. And then the Pope's tree vipers from Asia they called two step Charlie. During the Vietnam War, that was a very popular thing. They were talking about two steps Charlie. They've seen guys and get bit and money to fall over dead. It's about like a copper head bite. And so that's I think that's five snakes, five different snakes. And then a banded Egyptian cobra. Yeah, yep, I just said banded Egyptian cobra. Mr Fred went into an elaborate story on getting bit by this exotic serpent and not getting any medical treatment, but I simply couldn't fit it into the podcast. I'll tell you about at it. On the render. They were again, I got a dry b from a king cobra. Only one thing, but it opened my finger up, literally to the bone. Yeah, he just said he got dry bit from a king cobra. Okay, let let me let me go through them again. Then copper head watermarks and multiple types of rattlesnakes, pig me timber rattler, diamondback and u and then that pit viper, Pope's tree viper, then a coral snake, then a banded Egyptian cobra, and then a dry byte of a king cobra. So that's seven species of poisoned snakes you've been bit by. Yeah, but I didn't get any of thenom from the coral snake either. Okay, that's right. I'd say that's a pretty good resume there for snake bites. Well, hey, I mean, you're still alive at eighty years old and in good health, folks. I want to say a few things. Every state has different laws regarding captive snakes and taking them out of the wild. Much of Mr Fred's work was done decades ago. Secondly, I don't want to minimize or give anyone the idea that they shouldn't go to the hospital if they get bit. But I feel like Mr Fred has earned the right to share his story, of which he didn't ask to tell. I pride one more thing on Mr Fred. He has the utmost respect for snakes and cringes at their mistreatment or their senseless killing. Lastly, we're about to nerd out into some snake biology and it's fascinated. But if for some weird reason you don't like that, I will ask a favor of you, and that's to listen until the very end. The last story told on this podcast you will never forget. Dr Chris Jenkins is a herpetile just with a long list of accolades. Aside from being a North Georgia Turkey and deer hunting Jedi master, he's the executive officer of the Orient Society, which works to conserve critical habitat for imperiled reptiles and amphibians. He's also the host of Snake Talk podcast, which you should check out. I wanted to ask him about snake bites, timber, rattlesnake biology, and what to do if you get bit Meet Dr Chris Jenkins. Dr Chris Jenkins, I have always been fascinated with snakes, and specifically rattlesnakes. In EO. Wilson's book titled Biophilia, which is roughly translated into Love of Life, he suggests that humans have been so successful on planet Earth because of our fascination with living creatures and living animals, and that fascination has a pendulum, and that pendulum would go from like us loving puppies and quala bears all the way to a deep and almost irrational fear of snakes. Like we have this incredible relationship with snakes as humans and have for like a long time. Why do you think people are so afraid of snakes? Well, the first thing I'd say is that while we as humans maybe want to put snakes into another category of animals or another category of nature, I have spent my entire career and the one thread that I see that goes throughout everyone I encounter is a fascination. And I always like to say nobody's indifferent to a snake. Let's say you've been walking the same trail near your house every day. Uh, you see a gray squirrel. You might see thirty gray squirrels on that walk. You might get to the point where where you just kind of you don't you don't even notice that particular squirrel. But snakes are different. There are very few humans on this planet that would be moving and they pass a snake and they would do nothing. It just it just like just brings out these very intense emotions and they can range widely. As you mentioned, they can be excitement. Are there other animals that do the same thing. I would think so, and they can. They typically classify they have some similar aspects to them, like, for example, things like sharks, spiders, maybe some of the large mammalian carnivore animals. People notice those. And to get to your question about fear, I really do believe that it is a combination of genetic aspects that are in our DNA that have allowed us to survive so many years by avoiding predation, combine with a huge amount of education or learning, you know, so on that that genetic side. While there are very few snakes on the planet that could eat a human, now it does happen, but incredibly rare. You know, historically there would have been very very large snakes on the landscape that fed on primates. There's this snake called Titana boas and you'd be amazed to see how large this snake is. And so they're there, and there are studies that are confirming this, that there is a component of us where we understand that this could be a predator. But the more interesting part, and I do think that the bigger part is the learned part. I want to talk to you about the foundation of that fear ultimately, is that a human would be bit by a poisonous snake. Right, let's talk about the probabilities of being bit by a snake, and as we go further, I want to specifically talk about rattlesnakes. What are the chances in the probability these of being bit by a snake here in the United States? You know, so first I would say that it varies so much across the country, depending where you are, the density of people, the density of snakes, types of snakes. But in general, if you take a state like Georgia where I live, that is a um you know, we have fairly high snake diversity of six species of venomous snakes. We certainly have multiple venomous snake bites a year. Even in the county that I live in, where we only have timber rattle snakes and copper heads, we usually have at least one, if not multiple snake bites per year. However, I will say you don't First of all, you don't want to get a snake bite, a venomous snake bite. They're all different, the venoms different, but it can make you very sick and can kill you. But if you just look at the raw probabilities in the United States of your chances of dying from a venomous snake bite, they're much much low or than than so many other things you do. The truth is, if you're going to go to a nature preserve and you're going to go for a hike, the most dangerous thing that you did was drive there. You have a much higher probability driving there. And most people are not petrified to the point where they wouldn't go in the woods because they had to drive the I mean, there are other notable things. You know. Your chances of dying safe from a stinging insect is much greater than dying from a rattlesnake bite in the US, or if you want to go ride a horse. Notice he didn't say mule. Very interesting, and those things people are probably you know, have some fear around horses, or have some fear around stinging insects, but it's not the type of horrific fear that might keep people out of the woods that that snakes bring about. Dr Jenkins, can you tell me about, on average, how many people in the United States die of snake bites each year? Well, I'd answer that first by comparing the number of people who get snake bites to the number who die, and so thout there are thousands of venomous snake bites in the United States every year, which might sound like a big number. That's actually not very big if you compare that to some other types of injuries you might incur in a typical year. It's only a handful of people, but it's certainly less than twenty, and it might be much less than that. I would suspect less than ten your average die from a venomous a wild snake bite. So if you think about that, your chances are incredibly low. That number of people. More than that number of people die every day in vehicle accidents million people in the United States, and less than twenty die per year from snake bites. I mean, you have a higher probability of death by almost anything. What's so interesting about that is that our fear of snakes and our fear of dying from snake bite it is like very, very large. It feels like in broad society compared to the actual data of the possibility of you dying from a snake bite. That's some really good marketing from the from the snake bite people. I guess maybe the snakes themselves. They've marketed their bites pretty good to make us this fearful for this long man. Yeah, no, that's that strong marketing campaign for snake bites. And I don't want to minimize despite a low number of deaths. Still, you know you don't want to receive a venomous snake bite. I mean, it can have long lasting impacts on your life in a variety of ways. It can leave you maimed, you can lose you can survive but potentially lose certain limbs or have other long term problems. So, but your chances of dying are very low. I want to specifically talk about the timber rattler that is in the United States before we dive into that. How many species of rattlesnakes are there in the United States. Well, like all fields of biology, this is changing rapidly. But let's just say that there are about thirty two species of rattlesnakes, some of them going all the way down into South America. So what I'm calling a timber rattler, and I'm kind of just using that as just the naming convention that I've heard people around here use their whole lives, velvet tells, timber rattlers, cane brake rattlers. What what is the scientific name of that species? Yeah, I mean a common name, as you said, is just that it's a common name. The Latin name for a timber rattlesnake is Crotalus horridus. You're right when you mentioned cane brake. People think of cane brakes sometimes as a different species, but cane brakes and timber rattle snakes are actually the same species. But timber rattlesnakes can look very very different depending where in the country that you find them. Describe the geographic region that the timber rattlers. In timber rattle snakes are an amazing snake and that I like to call him a merry Ricca's snake, in that they are really one of the most wide ranging species. You can find them. Historically they're now gone from Maine, but historically you could find them in the northeast up to Maine, and then they come down all the way south into northern Florida, and they go west into Texas and then back up north into kind of the northern Midwestern states states like Minnesota and Wisconsin. So really wide ranging snake lay by far overlap with human populations, much more than than any other snake in the US um and then they've we've just used them as as such a symbol, the symbol of a rattlesnake on a don't tread on Me flag. Are there rattlesnakes on other continents. There are rattlesnakes on on South America, you know, through Central America and into South America. There are many vipers. So rattles snakes are a member of the family vipara day and there are vipers on most continents in the world. And it's actually thought that vipers came over the Burringian land bridge, you know up in where we think of Alaska. Like a lot of other animals shout out to Josh spilmmakers land bridge, mustache separ grease render inside joke, you're all invited. And then really diversified into the rattle snakes. And we think they did that somewhere kind of in the southwestern US and Mexico, so where they only North and South America are the only places that have rattle snakes. Yeah, they are a new world group of species. They do run some islands still within North America, you know, islands off of you know, say the West Coast and in the Gulf and the Caribbean. But in general, uh, you know, they are a new world species. Talk to me about the rattle Dr Jenkins, what biologic advantage does that attle rattlesnake? Well, it's thought, of course, we don't know exactly. If we could interview them this this biology thing would be a lot easier. But no, with the rattle. One of the theories is that these animals evolved from these some of these vipers that came over from Asia. They evolved in a landscape where there are a large of large ungulates, things that might step on you. But the idea is that the rattle is really a defensive mechanism. It's a warning if a bison's near you or humans coming around. There's some interesting kind of examples off of islands off of North America where rattlesnakes have moved to those islands many many, you know, thousands of years ago, and on those islands there are no large mammals, no predators, and over time, while those animals are still rattlesnakes, they no longer have a rattle, so they were just trying not to get stepped on. I'm no scientist, Dr Jenkins, but I'm like, in this theory makes sense to me. I mean, clearly they're using it as a as a warning, you know, yeah, I mean that's some other good evidence is is the things we haven't seen the rattle used for our So for example, they don't use the rattle in luring prey like a feeding type, or you know, the males don't rattle to attract females, and if that was the case, you would expect female rattlesnakes not to have them. Let's talk specifically about timber rattlesnakes. I grew up with timber rattlesnakes and just had a massive fascination with them. You've you've described this large geographic area where timber rattlers are. Are there places inside that jurisdiction where there are more than others? Can you tell me where most of them are? The timber rattlesnake First of all, one of the reasons it's been so successful is it's been able to get into very extreme environments. So you do find them at high elevation. I've seen them over five thousand feet here in the southern Appalachians, and they go all the way north, you know, I mentioned uh, you know Maine. Historically they used to be in Ontario. But there are certain places where they're doing relatively well. I'd say one of the hot spots for timber rattlesnakes were probably a good numbers still remain, good densities still remain would be kind of the central Appalachian region, so places like Pennsylvania, they're Virginia's um. The other place that they're probably doing really well would be kind of in that cane break part of the range down here in the southeast, down in the coastal plain. Um in many places in the coastal plain they're doing really well. But there are other places. I mean, I think in Arkansas, for example, in the Ozarks, and I think they're doing relatively well. They're probably comparable to this Southern Appalachian region. On the flip side of that, there are places where they're doing very poorly. And those are typically places at the fringes of the change. So if you go to the northern midwest Minnesota, Wisconsin, or you go to the northeast, they're gone from Maine, They're gone from Rhode Island. There's one population left in New Hampshire, too, left in Vermont, a handful in each of Massachusetts and Connecticut, so they're up there. They're one of the most endangered species. So if you were looking at a mountain in the Southern Appalachians, is there a place on that mountain where you would go to find a snake? And I'm not suggesting someone go try to find one, but just but are there places on the mountain like where I see rattlesnakes in arkansass and some of the roughest, rockiest, most remote country. I would assume that is because there are populations of snakes in that remote country that haven't been is harassed by humans, you know that hadn't for the last two fifty years been killed by humans that have seen them, and they've kind of you have these hubs and these like more remote areas, rough rocky is that is my anecdotal observation hold true? Yeah, I would think it kind of course scale you certainly would be correct, But at that micro scale that you mentioned in areas where they've disappeared from or in very remote areas, they're gonna need some of the same things. And the other important thing to know about rattlesnakes. I always like to tell people rattlesnakes have a biology. To people kind of minimize them to like an environment where they don't think much about what they do. But rattlesnakes do very particular things very certain times of the year. And so you're seeing them in very rough, rocky country. So there are certain times of the year that that timber rattlesnakes will often focus on those types of environments. Those are oftentimes but not always, where they will have their overwintering dens are in fissures and rocks where they can go underground and escape cold temperatures. These are areas where the females go to raise their body temperatures and preparation for giving birth. Those are often the areas that animals who are gonna do anything like physiologically challenging, meaning like if they're going to shed their skin, or if they've eaten and they need to digest, they'll oftentimes go to rocky areas um And that's to raise their body temperature because they don't maintain a constant body temperature like we do. But the other piece of that is an observer bias, meaning that you know when you go to these rocky areas. First of all, it's a type of environment that you might key in on more um than any particular little grove of oak trees. So I can guarantee you though over your years you've walked by so many rattlesnakes out in these hardwood forests and just never known them. They're they're much much harder to see. I've had snakes that have radio transmitters, so I'm following them. I know where they are, and I'm standing there in an open oak forest and I'm I'm I've circled this area and I know that there is a rattlesnake within like five yards in front of me, and I have a technician standing five yards away. We're looking at each other. We know the rattlesnakes in front of us, we cannot see it. And then all of a sudden, just like appeared, and I just realized that the snake was sprawled out full lengthwise in front of us. And I've seen tens of thousands of rattlesnakes in the wild. My point is is that there is an observer bias as well. Let's talk about rattlesnake camouflage. Your story is fascinating that you could be that close to rattlesnake and not see it, and I think many of us have experienced that. Tell me about rattlesnake camouflage, and this is really across many species. But timber rattlesnakes, I think of them as a hardwood associated rattlesnake. Those hardwoods dropped their leaves and and just produced this kind of canvas of a forest floor with just an incredible complexity of texture of color. And so a rott dottle snakes body looks like that color wise. And also interestingly, snakes have different types of scales, and rattlesnakes have what are called keeled scales, which means each of their scales has a little bit of a ridge on it, like a keel on a boat. That texture on their body is you know, one of the functions that is likely to help with the camouflage. It's like they're wearing a Gilli suit as opposed to you know, just a regular camo shirt. It's like it's like three D camo. I mean, you know, like light hitting it. If there's a ridge, it means that there's two different angles on a single scale, which I think would create a visual nuanced difference in the way. Yeah, three D Gilly sue. Wow, that's fascinating. I mean, rattlesnakes make their living not being discovered, whether they're hunting, you know, they're they're sitting weight predators. They don't want you know, say visual prey to see them. They don't want potential predators to see them. They don't want people to see them. You know, you might walk right by one and they would never make a noise. If you discover them, they're probably going to use that rattle that we have talked about, this warning system, and they're going to try to slowly move away. And the last thing they'll do is if you try to touch them in some form or get close enough, is they'll bite you because you have to almost touch or step on a rattlesnake. That's that's one of the big myths that that these animals are leaping through the air and chasing you down. Um. A rattlesnake typically bite and this is with the perfect perch, you know, great kinetic energy built up and something to push against. You know, they're they're striking half to a third of the length of their body, so you almost have to touch them to get a bite. You said a phrase there that they're sit and wait predators, and that's the perfect lead into my next question is how do they hunt and what and what do they eat? So how do they hunt? What do they eat? Well, most rattle snakes and timber rattlesnakes eat rodents. As they get larger, they'll typically eat larger rodents. So you think of things like your little paramiscus, your kind of forest mice, squirrels, chipmunks, um, rodents like that. Um, But they're not active predators in the sense they're not chasing these animals down. What they do is they travel through the forest and they use their tongue. You've probably seen snakes flicking their tongue. What they're doing is they're picking up chemicals in the environment and running them across an organ that they have in their mouth. And you could almost think of it like a really really intense sense of smell to the level where rattlesnake moving through the forest tongue flicking is probably like, oh, there was a chip monk here probably three or four days ago, but a mouse came through here an hour ago, and oh, a human stepped right there four days ago, like really fine tuned chemical reception type mechanism. And what they do is they go through the forest and they use those chemicals to decide where to hunt. So you have to think that they're looking for places that rodents travel frequently. So you might think of a rattlesnake at the base of a tree where squirrels are frequently going up and down a down log, that are rodents running a clock cross or just other trails, And then they set up on these trails and they get in kind of a hunting position where they're coiled up and kind of primed to strike, and then they use the pits. We haven't talked about it, but these are pit vipers um and and so they have kind of if you look at their face, they have a nostril, but they have an extra hole there which is the pit. And this pit essentially allows them to sense heat, which allows timber rattlesnakes to do a lot of foraging at night. But the venom, it is a fine tuned chemical cocktail that rattlesnakes have for feeding. First thing it does is it allows the snake to kill its prey without having to rest soil with it. It's the difference between you being able to shoot that elk from a hundred yards with your thirty six as opposed to you going in and trying to kill it with a tomahawk, and you have a much greater chance of getting injured by that elk. They just strike, inject the venom and they get away from that animal, and then the venom kills the prey. You know, Then the prey runs off and the venom kills it, and you know, the snake then has to find that in a maze of rodent chemicals all through the forest, and it uses the chemical signature of its own venom to track down prey that its venom is killed. And then finally, most rattlesnake venoms, and certainly timber rattlesnake venom is then also used in digestion and that helps them eat really large meals compared to their body. So while their stomach and their digestive system is digestive from the outside, the venom is breaking down and digesting this rodent from the inside. The positive side of that as well is that a three and a half a timber rattlesnake his venom is not designed to kill a hundred and eighty pound human. If if we're continuing to build these like rational ideas that make us not afraid of snakes. You know, you have this idea you get bit by a snake, you know you got an hour before you're dead, And not to minimize it in any way, but like that venom is designed to kill a squirrel, yes, I will say, and that timber rattlesnakes, of the venomous snakes in their range in the east are fairly toxic. Say you know, a timber rattlesnake bite on average would be a much more much much more significant bite than say, like a copper head or cotton mouth some other venomous species you'd find. What what about the age of snakes, Chris, It takes a it takes a snake a female, how long to become reproductively active? And how long can a snake live? So, first of all, rattlesnakes, timber rattlesnakes in particular, live much longer than most people might imagine. There are timber rattlesnakes alive today that we know are over fifty years old, and we don't know what that upper ceiling is. Like you mentioned female rattlesnakes, they can take and kind of extreme environments, meaning like really far north, like high latitude or high elevation. These snakes can take eight nine years, ten years maybe to reach sexual maturity. And then the females don't give birth every year. They can go to three four maybe in some cases five years in between a pregnancy. And so you can have some female rattlesnakes that you know, they might only have two or three opportunities to have a litter of young snakes, and they don't have many snakes. They're not some snakes have hundreds, but rattlesnakes. Timber rattlesnakes are not like that. You know, they'll have somewhere. You know, it could be five somewhere in that ballpark. They have evolved to have a very long life too. For a female rattlesnake to replace herself, she has evolved a life history strategy that requires her to live a long time. That's fascinating, fascinating. That's a great way for me to ask you. The question at hand, Dr Jenkins, is what do you do if you get bit by a snake? We we run on this default mechanism that we think we know what we would do. I mean, I live my whole life in snake country, So I mean anytime I leave my house and it's above sixty degrees sixty degrees, there's a chance and I get bit by a snake. And apparently I feel like I'm competent enough to handle that. I don't know if I ever not. I've never been bit by by poisonous snake. Tell me what you do. Clay Nucomb is out in the mountains by himself, coon hunting on a warm fall night, and I get just slam dunk bit on the calf by big four ft timber rattler. I'm three quarters of a mile from my truck, I'm alone. What do I do? I won't go into it in great depth, but the first thing I'll do is tell you that you should have planned to not get a bite. And and I say, then, can't you can't tell me that? I will? I will. I will get to what to do in that situation. But I will say that the most effective way to deal with a snake bite is to not get one. They're already very rare. And there's a few very simple things, um, that you can do. And you know, as a sportsman or somebody you know, say a wildlife biologist or a forest or somebody who spends a lot of time potentially coming in contact with snakes, I would invest in a pair of snake gators. Many sportsmen wear them anyways, Um, if you're in snake country, you should take that precaution. The other precaution you should take is have a plan. Most outdoor people have a plan for different things. So what to do if you are back in the others are and you get that bite. Perhaps the best way to start that is what don't you do? So there are so many things that people have been taught to do with snakes. You know, you could still go buy snake bite kits at Walmart that have like a razor blade in it, for example, to cut and suck. Don't want to do that. Myths about drinking alcohol, about using cold, about using electricity like a little shocking device on the bite, none of that is helpful, and in fact, much of that can actually have a negative impact. The other thing I would say is that about twenty five to fift of all venomous snake bites are dry, which means they don't put venom into you snakes. Snakes can control or meter whether they deliver and approximately how much venom they deliver, but you have to you have to treat it like it has because you don't know, and a timber rattlesnake could be life threatening. The two key components to to dealing with a snake by in almost any situation are very intuitive. Their transportation and communication. You know, you could back in the ozarks quite a ways, and if you get a rattlesnake by it could potentially kill you. You You need to have a way to call for help, and if you can, in most situations, have other people come to you. So in this planning I'm talking about, you don't don't walk out it if you could be if someone could drive to you, don't walk out. You have this venom in you. The venom is going to be pumping through your body and you know, so you're probably increasing the chances that that venom gets to things like your lungs and your heart, things that could kill you and there. But there's a trade off. You know, if you completely isolated, say put on a tourniquet, then you're gonna very likely lose that limb that you have tourniqueted off. So I would say I would rarely use a tourniquet, but I wouldn't completely write that off because you know in Australia, know they use tourniquets Oftentimes. You would have to be really remote a long ways from UH medical help and think that you have a really serious venom dose to to ever think about applying a tourniquet. Time is everything with a venomous snake. By the longer you wait, the more of those molecules are going to be attached to your blood cells, and the more damage you're gonna have. Basically, you need to get out of the woods as fast as possible, but with the least energy of the person that's bit being expelled. If I was in the Cranberry Wilderness in West Virginia, very large wilderness, and I'm in the middle of it, and I get a bite, and I know it's going to take me a couple of days to get out, I think I have a serious bite. I am going to get on the SAP phone or the in reach again. I am going to call for help and have them come get me. Um. If I am on a relatively small day hike and say I'm less than an hour from the truck, I'm still going to communicate. I'm going to start shooting people text messages, let them know what's happening. I'm here and I'm walking out, because I could pass out before I could go down before I get out. But I would probably try to walk out and uh, you know, I would do things like take off jewelry, take off rings. Um. So I don't have constriction points that are going to cause a lot more damage. I might if I had a bite on the hand, I might kind of hold that bite kind of not above my head to help the venom get towards my heart or not down low, so it kind of wells up in my hand kind of mid level and walk out. And you always communicate with a hospital that you're gonna go to, even if you're coming out, you want them to know you're coming, because the things that they need to treat you may not be at that hospital. The story you're about to hear is quite shocking, and we'll pull the pendulum back from the lighter side of snake bites that you've heard about from Mr Fred and even Brent. This one will put into perspective the seriousness of a snake bite. You're about to meet Lisa Damn Run from Northern Georgia. I think you'll agree after you hear her story that she's a pretty incredible lady. She's being interviewed by Dr Jenkins, and there are a few details you'll need to know. The snake in this story is an adult timber rattlesnake and Lisa is pregnant. Here is her story. My husband and I have actually gone on just an impromptu date night and we had just gotten home and I pulled into the driveway, stepped out of the car and on our date night we had gone gotten gotten groceries because you know, um, and I had stepped out of the car and stepped to the back seat just to grab a couple of bags of groceries and felt the only way I can describe it would be extremely forceful. I felt like somebody hit me with a hammer that had a point on it as hard as it could. And I was wearing sandals and the snake got just me, no strap, no shoe, nothing, so I felt at all. And it was so forceful that I remember looking up because I never thought that it had come from the ground. Um. I thought something had to have fallen on me or something like that. And my husband said that I jumped back. I don't really remember, because it's sort of I think I went into shock. UM. And he came around the car and he said, I just kept saying, what was that? It hurt? What was that? And it wasn't until he came around and he said, oh my gosh, it's a snake that I even knew what had happened. But I looked down at that point and I remember seeing it curled up in the driveway and its head was up looking at my husband and its tail up rattling at him. Just warning him like to stay back that point it went under the car, and my husband told me to jump in the car and let's go. So we took off at that point. So that's where we were. So you see the bite actually happened on your foot is where I was on my foot, on the top left side of my left foot, so you you get the snake bite. Your husband said, let's let's get into the car. How many months pregnant were you I was seventeen weeks pregnant, so almost halfway the pregnancy. So you guys get in the car, and then what happens? Uh? He dialed nine on one and took off, driving very quickly down the road straight toward our hospital because we just figured that's where we need to go UM. But he also called nine on one and as he was on the phone with them, they had called the hospital and found out they were actually out of anti venom because someone I think had been bitten the week before or something and they didn't have anymore. So they advised us to just go to UM where an ambulance was waiting for us just down the road. And when we got there, I was obviously very upset at this point because It was excruciating, but also I was worried about about my son, so I was upset and crying. And when we got to the paramedics, they actually then could tell it was pretty severe and had called a helicopter in. So you were up here in the mountains at you know, a small mountain hospital, and the helicopter picked you up up here. Yeah, they took me from here down to an hour away so to a different hospital. So what happened when when the helicopter landed and you got to the hospital in the larger city. Unfortunately, that's where my story gets um not great. The e er didn't really know what to do because I was pregnant. They just kept saying they weren't sure if anti venom was safe for someone who's pregnant. And it was a very busy night that night. I remember there being beds in the hallways, other patients and stuff. And so they left me laying there for a long time, many many hours, with nothing. And because I was pregnant, I wouldn't even take pain killers, and so I just laid there in a lot of pain, and every thirty minutes they would come in and take a sharpie and mark my leg and after a lot of time I had gone by, it's clear it wasn't stopping, and they were at least halfway up my thigh at that point, marking, and they decided to start the anti venom at that point, what was the pain level, like, would you say during that part of the process, The actual by itself and the you know, when the venom initially started to take over was excruciating. It was like I remember describing it like it was like lava was all over my foot while things were stabbing me and poking me and a lot of pressure. It was just it was really interesting. It never felt anything else like it. So they make the decision that well, to save your life, they need to start administering anti venom, but they're unsure about what might happen to the baby. So what happened next? So then when I got to IC you and nurse came in, the very first nurse I had, and she started asking me questions like, well, what did they say, since you're pregnant, you know they're going to be any side effects and he does will be birth effects anything like that? I said, They never did say. They never really seemed to find out and she said, I'm gonna call crow fab and that was the first time I'd even heard the name crow Feb. I didn't even know what that was. I was like, who's that? She said, as he makes the anti venom. Let's see if they know anything, and she came back in the room within twenty minutes with all kinds of information for me actually that it was perfectly safe. There's no side effects whatsoever, so maybe feel a lot better about the whole situation. Unfortunately, because they did wait too long, I did end up losing my son. Um I was written on the twenty one June, and on the twenty three June his heart stopped. So I was still an ic U spent until the twenty five, and I see wasn't until then I was released and then sent to labor and delivery. Unfortunately at that point, so it actually took a couple of days for your son's heart to stop beating. Said, yeah, it was the twenty one, but it was at nine fifteen at night, and then it in the morning, I found out, So it wasn't long. They were obviously monitoring him. Was it a sudden thing or was it something that you all realized he was battling for life as well. It seems sudden to me, Um, when I found out my brother, who's actually a doctor, was in the I see you with me, just visiting. And so when they came in that that morning to do the ultrasound, he knew, Um, he could see and he knows what he's looking at, and so he actually followed the doctor out and asked, could I please be the one to tell her? And he told me, and then they actually allowed him to look over the day before and his heart rate had been dropping. Well, it seems like a big part of your story actually has to do with what happened or didn't happen at the hospital. So do you have any advice for people on how they can be advocates for their own treatment in this type of situation? Yeah, definitely. I mean, if anyone here's my story, especially if they're pregnant in their bitten, just know you should get anti venom. For one. I didn't know, and I even had people texting me like, I've been googling it and it seems fine, Like just even a quick Google search could kind of tell you that it's perfectly safe, and the quicker you get it, obviously the better, so for for your recovery and for your unborn child if you were pregnant. I have learned to be more of an advocate for myself and my family in medical field, because you know, I think they're the doctors are great and everything, but they don't know everything they know. One actually, in the almost week I was in the hospital and I see you labor delivery, you are not a single person who cared for me had ever had a patient bit by a venomous snake that was pregnant. Not one person. So you know they're not going to know everything. Well, I want the I want the audience to know that Lisa and I are sitting at a table in my office and there is a cage between us with a rattlesnake in it. I could literally, if the case, if the snake was not in the glass, either Lisa or I right now could reach out and touch that rattlesnake. And given this environment that we're sitting in, I wanted the last question I wanted to ask is how has this experience impacted how you think about snakes? Yeah, before living up here, you know, I knew that they were around, and so we we thought we were being aware and watching out. Um. But I wasn't fearful or you know, afraid of them. Um. Right after the experience, I think, given the fact that it wasn't just trauma for me, it was trauma plus grief. Um, it took a pretty large impact on me for a while. I had a really unrealistic fear of snakes for a while there. Like I was afraid to get out of bed in the mornings, thinking there might be a snake on my floor. I mean, it was just and I knew it was silly. I knew it was unrealistic, but I couldn't help it. I was very afraid. Now, after some time has gone by, and you know, I've educated myself and our children and things like that, I'm actually not afraid at all. I just I've made myself get out. It took a little a while. I didn't even want to get out in the woods and go high I can and do things that I used to enjoy. Um, But I kind of made myself just go and do it and tell myself it's gonna be okay. And it has been okay. And now I actually find myself advocating for snakes a lot of times. I'll see people you know on Facebook make a post and they'll people will constantly talk about them and say things like, uh, only good snake is a dead snake and stuff like that. People love to say things like that, and I'll speak up and be like, no, that's not true. You know. I feel like if anybody has the right to feel that way, it would be me, and I don't. So people just I don't know. They're not bad, they're not. I don't just be watching out. I don't know. I don't I'm not afraid anymore, which I'm thankful for, because it really was hard there for a little while. But I've gotten past it. I was taken aback by Lisa's concluding statements of advocating for snakes and not living in fear. I would say that her response is powerful and inspiring. In conclusion, snakes are a cog in the wheel of the human experience. They're part of our lives. They live in the woods where we hike and hunt. They live in our yards, They live in our dreams and haunt our unconscious thoughts. The ancient mechanism at work and humans creating this innate fear and fascination with snakes is undeniable. My mother Juju, dedicated a fair part of her life to warning me about snakes. I now realized that my life would be incomplete without them and those warnings. It's almost like we needed a villain to learn the highways of human relationship. My mother's warning, combined with an instinct to not trust long slithery crew, has taught me to trust her to obey her, which ultimately ushered me into successful human life. Where would we be without snakes? And from my dad I learned that snakes inhabit the wild places of the earth, and what would a wilderness be without the possibility of coming on a big timber rattlesnake. I guarantee I will never not be excited when I see one. To me, they represent an uncontrollable wildness, which is something that I crave engagement with. It's my hope that we've presented a balanced view of snakes that will garner a deep respect for them in two ways. Number One, they can take your life or alter it in a significant way. Number Two, a wild place isn't wild at all without them. I encourage you to check out Dr Jenkins Snake Talk podcast to learn more about snake conservation. Long Live the beast and the ancient human mechanisms that make us who we are. Thanks a ton for listening to the Bear Grease Podcast. Please leave us a big slithery review on iTunes and share this podcast with your buddies. We'll see you next week on the Bear Grease Render

Save this episode