00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host Mark Kenyan. This episode number one thirty one Taylor's show. We're joined by Donnie Vincent, an incredible hunter and filmmaker, and we're discussing everything from his recent whitetail hunts, to how to have conversations about hunting, dealing with opposing viewpoints, and so much more. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sitka Gear and today on the show, we're joined by Donnie Vincent. And way back in two thousand and fourteen had Donnie on the Show of Us. But if you miss that one or somehow don't know who Donnie is, you know he is a super serious hunter and a filmmaker, and that's probably what he's most known for right now. He's produced some of the most impressive hunting films in recent years, such as The Rivers Divide, Terra Nova, and a short film called Who We Are, which kind of spoke to kind of this answering that question of why we hunt, and that video kind of went massively viral across not just the hunting world, but the non hunting world too, and got a lot of non hunters to kind of look at what we do as hunters maybe a little bit differently. So Donnie has been doing some really cool things, and recently he's been doing a lot of white tail hunting too. So we're gonna have him on the show with us today to talk a little bit about how the white tail hunting has been going this year, what he's been doing, what's been working, what he's learned, and then you know, if we have time, we might even dive into some of these bigger picture topics related to some of the themes of some of his work and some of these films, maybe talk about what's next and some interesting stuff like that. So before all that, though, man, Dan, we probably have some updates that are worth sharing. Two. All right, Dan, um, maybe I do you you want you want to hear? Uh? You want to hear kind of a funny story. I'd love to hear a funny story. All right. So the other day, right, this has nothing to do with hunting at all. I'm not surprised. Okay, So the other day, Um, I had to take my wife or my wife. I had to take my daughter to gymnastics because her ride that she usually goes with, UM that lady and her kids were sick. So I had to take my daughter into gymnastics. And gymnastics at eleven o'clock is usually you know, there's a room full of soccer moms, not guys who look like they just gotta done, like chopping down a tree. So right before that they get to go in and play around in this big gymnastic gymnastics equipment, UM jump on trampolines and before they actually class starts. So I let my daughter go in first and I went to the restroom, and then I walked in like maybe five minutes after her, and I kind of walked into this corner where all of the kids were we're at and able was jumping on this trampoline and I wanted to send a picture to my mom and my dad, So I pull out my phone and I start like taking pictures of my daughter, and this lady comes up to me and it's like, uh, who are you? And order you because I I'm wearing like the seed corn had like a dirty hooded sweatshirt. Big old Red Beard looked like, I just just got done, uh, crawling out from under a bridge, so I gotta kick out of that. She's like, that's my daughter. She's like, Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Oh Dan, you you totally got all out for the creepy old man. Look right right. It's like, if I'm going to steal a kid, it's not gonna be my own daughter. Yeah, h man. It totally wasn't surprised me. Like if if I saw you, like taking pictures of a bunch of kids and my child was in that group, I'd be kind of weirded out too. Yeah, don't blame you. He's got he's got a really gross beard, and he's he's an amputee. So I think you better call the police. It looks like that guy dropped the hammer on his on his face. Maybe I still we still joke about that. Me and Corey still laugh about your dropping the hammer on your drop the hammer, and I haven't dropped the hammer in a long time. It's been like three years. I know you gotta bring that back. Should I drop the hammer for the A T A Show? You absolutely should, Although it might not be good for business, but probably not. But maybe people have respect for just the go NaNs. It takes to rock that. But when have I really made decisions in life? Now? Stay consistent, dude, stay existent. So so what's up with you? Man? I've got one big interesting thing to talk about. Okay, she's fine. You finally got your wife pregnant. No, okay, this is this is hunting related. Um yeah, no baby news yet. Uh. But I got Trailcaren pictures of holy Field day before yesterday. Nice, So he's alive. And for the last I got pictures of him on the twenty six November and then nothing for ten days and then boom, he's back. But I don't know something happened, um in between that period of time. I think it was probably after I didn't get pictures of him on November twenty six, after that period, you know, I said, a week past, eight days, nine days, ten days, and over the period of that time, I kind of came to like, for whatever reason, I just thought he was dead. I just thought I just thought the hunt was on. For whatever reason, I said this feeling that it just felt like it was done. Um. So I kind of like come to terms of that, and it kind of like in some way I don't know why I did this, because you know, there's no reason why he couldn't have disappeared for seven days and then the back of course, but I just had this feeling, so I kind of come in terms of all that blah blah blah. Well, when he shows back up and he's alive, I felt differently about hunting him, and I can't explain it. Um, but I've started asking the question of do I even want to try to kill him now? And I know this is like crazy, And I wrote an article about this yesterday on the website, and I think half of people kind of get where I'm coming from. Half people think I'm crazy and are rolling their eyes, um, and I and I don't know it. I'm like strangely conflicted. Um. But but I guess let me explain kind of my thought process on this, Dan, And I'm curious to hear what you think. So you know, I saw this deer last year, I passed him. Now this year, I've been like obsessively hunting him. He's been like the buck I wanted to kill. I've seen him twenty times, literally twenty times in my own eyes now and so many pictures. And we've talked about him so many times, and I've written so many articles and I have so much video of him. Um. And it's been this incredible hunt and experience and getting to know this deer and chasing this deer, and like I mean to be, my wife has been a little maybe um fed up with how obsessed I've been with hunting this there. And I guess for good reason, because I'm like I'm always talking about it, or I'm going to try to see him, you know, going to scout, because I can do that. Even when I can't hunt, I can get two spots where I can see that areas sometimes. Um. But he made it all the way through October, he made it through the rut, he made it through the firearms season, and now it's like December seventh or sixth or whatever it is now, and now I'm like looking at this and I'm saying, wow, like he really could make it through the end of the year, like now all of this and it seems like it's not guaranteed by any means, but more so than before, it seems possible that he could make it to the new year. Um. And for whatever reason, I just started thinking about like those possibilities, like how cool would it be to know he was still around here and to look for his sheds and to see what he might be as five years old, and to have a third year of this, you know, this journey that I've been on. And I don't know why why I like the switch all of a sudden flipped for me, but I did, And like now I've been thinking about that more, and I like, I don't like for all the weeks and months of September and October November, I had this like all consuming drive to hunt this deer and to try to kill him. Mhm, I just don't feel that way anymore. Like I don't know if I if I was sitting there and I saw him, I don't know what I would do. Like, I'm just I'm really conflicted because one part of me is saying all these things I've just been saying, and the other side of me says, this is your number one goal going into this season. You put so much time, so much energy into all of this, and of course you know I want to hunt and kill this deer um, So you know, why would you turn down the potential chance to do that when it finally if if it. This is no guarantee. But if it were to come, Um, and even if I decided to pass him, there's no guarantee at all that he'll make it to next year. I'd like to think you might, but that's no guarantee. There still could be someone could hunt him. Um, he could die over the winter. He could get hit by a car. I know that all these things are possible. I know there's no guarantees. Um, But I don't know. I just I'm having this weird, strange, conflicting set of feelings now. Um, And I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That's all I got. What do you think? What am I? Man? I can honestly say that I've been down that same path as far as thought is concerned. Um. You your story with holy Field sounds a little bit like my story with shipwreck in away Right, It's like, what what what am I gonna do if I actually get him in shooting range? Uh? This buck has been an obsession of mine. He's been He's you know, a particular buck that that has changed the way I actually hunt. Right? Who has influenced this animal influenced me as a bow hunter? And you know, it's like you owe that that buck something. But you've also you also mentioned the word journey, right, and you know this, you know, watching this buck grow is like a journey. But just so you know, journeys come to an end. Man, whether you finish the that journey or you turn around and go home, or you just stop, there's an ending point. And I feel that you need to be the person that finishes that journey and not somebody else. You know, you're you're talking about a whole bunch of what ifs at the end of the season, right, he's on your hit list this year and next year. I mean, he could he could get hit by a car, he could get killed yet by another hunter. He could move to another property, he could die at winter. You know, there's so many what if things that happened that you know, as a hunter, you also have to take into consideration what your best odds of harvesting that animal are. And now is better than tomorrow, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, no, And I hear you, and I mean all those same things are in my head too. Um. Something you said, though, I wonder if this maybe could be part of what has changed in my feelings, is is you mentioned the fact that all journeys have an end, and I think because I had, for whatever reason, thought the journey had come to an end, I like came to terms of that. I came to terms of the idea of this journey ending and me not being the one to end it, and I was okay with that. And I was like, you know what, this has been such an incredible hunt over the two years getting to know this dear, see this dear, learn from this dear, and I was like, okay with that. And maybe that's why now I'm okay with the idea of trying to extend that journey, still knowing I may not end it. Um, just with the hopes of maybe continuing it. UM. I don't know. I mean, I know I sound crazy. I know there's probably fifty or eight pc of people listening to me that I think I'm an idiot. Um. I can't explain to myself. UM, but I think there's a spiritual there's a spiritual side to things, man, And it's not it doesn't. There's a lot of there's a lot of hunters out there, even some that are listening to this podcast who right now are saying, man, you're FFing crazy if you think I would pass up that buck at you know, there, I'm not gonna You're an animal lover two mark Hunters are not just killers, you know, we could. There's there's for me, there's also a spiritual side. Like there's plenty of times even this season that I went out saying, Okay, well I'm gonna kill a doughe tonight and then sat in a tree and didn't feel like killing a dough you know, I just sat there and watched them, maybe waited for a buck to pop out, or you know, just whatever, or just sit in observe nature, observe the animals that you love. But you know, and the only person you have to answer to is yourself. So what I say and what everybody else say doesn't matter. And that's and in no disrespect to anyone who shared their opinion with me. But I you know, from the get go when I when I decided to kind of share these feelings, I know there'd be I knew there'd be lots of opinions on it, and I just you know, this is a decision and something that has to come down to how I feel about the situation. You know, So I'm This isn't anything. I'm not pulling the audience to see what they think I should do, and then I'm gonna do that. This is like a personal decision, um of course, and uh, you know, I'm gonna just kind of personally work through it. I mean, what a privilege it is to just even have the upper tunity to think about that too. And again, you know, I haven't had the chance to actually pass on him yet, so you know, I might never have that chance, and maybe I won't even you know, get close up to shoot him anyways. But um, but it's something I just started to think about. And can I ask you a question? You sure cant? Is this a subconscious accepting failure? Like subconsciously You're like, well, if I haven't killed him now, I'm not going to kill him. So I'm just gonna come up with some and and don't take this the wrong way, but come up with an excuse. So why not to kill him? You know what I mean? Yeah, so I I had someone else made a comment like that on Facebook two and you know, take this however once, but I I don't view it that way at all, because I think I have my very best chance to kill him right now, I think I can. I I would bet five dollars I put five dollars in the line that I could kill that buck before the end of the season, because he is still he's still using the same area. But I haven't hunted in three weeks. I've left this place completely untouched except for pictures, and the only really good late season food now is right on my property. And I know now the significant portion of other hunters are not hunting I have based on some other things I know. I know there's reduced pressure even more than there was before. Um So, yeah, I can't guarantee anything. Of course, he could still get killed by someone, So there's all these other things. I know that, But I think there's a very very high percentage chance I get a shot at him with a firearm, because I've got our muzzle or season right now, and I could go out there with my muzzleloader and I think I could get I have a very good chance of getting a shot him. I could have killed him with a muzzleloader twice last week or whenever it was November. Um So, So that said, I'm not, I don't, I'm not. That's not what this is at all. Um So, why don't you go out, Why don't you go out and hunt and make make the decision at at the time, Like, go out, do everything like you normally do, get him if he steps out, put him right in your scope, and then ask yourself the question, Man, is this what I want to do? And I think that's that that is what I'm gonna do. I've I've kind of said up, I'm still gonna hunt. I'm still gonna go out there. UM. I think what I am going to do though, and this is at least where I'm kind of that right now, is I think I'm just gonna take the bow out and that's gonna be kind of my little way of of letting fate be the determiner. Um. I'm gonna put myself in a good position, and I'm gonna hunt on the right days and the right spots, and I don't take that bow and if he comes with them bow warrings for the first time this year and I have a chance, I think that's you know, a greater power saying Okay, it's it's time. Um. If not, then you know I've had an incredible hunt for this guy and hopefully it continues next year. Um. But I don't know. I just feel like, if I'm already having these doubts about killing him, shooting him at a hundred and fifty yards and my muzzler seems like a little lackluster, um, if I'm already liked having this. So I don't know, man. I mean, I completely understand that most people probably would not understand why I'm saying these things because I don't want understand it. But that's just kind of where Matt, That's how I'm feeling, and it's my hunt. And when it comes right down to it, whether or not I kill him is okay. If that doesn't happen, that's okay. Um, it's been a heck of a journey, and I just kind of like the idea of thinking that journey might continue. Okay, Yeah, that's okay with me, man. And maybe I'll kill him tomorrow night. Maybe because I'm going back out tomorrow night for the first time to hunt this spot where I got pictures of him. I haven't hunted there in a month, and um, he's been there in daylight twice recently. So we've got a good cold weather. I've got a good chance. I think a decent chance at least, So who knows if he's there at twenty yards and the blood's boiling and and I'm pumped and it feels right, we might bring it into the story now or maybe two months from now, I'll be looking for sheds and we'll be talking about the same dear, and everyone will be rolling their eyes and sick of hearing of the holy field. So who knows, But I appreciate you hearing me out and uh and and not calling me crazy. Well I'm calling I'm calling you a little crazy. Okay, Okay, that's fair. That's fair because I I probably am a little crazy. But we all are. We all are. So I suppose with that we should wrap this up because we're a little bit late and calling Donnie. Um, so let's wrap this part up. Let's take a quick break to thank our partners at Sick of Gear, and then we will give Donny Vincent a call. So, as I mentioned, we need to thank our partners at s Gear for the support of this podcast. And our sickest story today comes from Brock Bolt of Wisconsin, and this year he did something that I've been personally trying to do. As we've just been discuss sing, which is hunting and finally killing a buck he had been after for several years, and after multiple past encounters and tons of pictures, finally this fall a shot presented itself and Brock closed the deal. M m hmm. These incredible memories were made by Brock while wearing his sick gear. And if you'd like to learn more about Sikas Technical Hunting, a pair for white tail hunters, you can visit Sitka gear dot com. And now let's get back to the show. All right with us. Now on the line is Donnie Vincent. Welcome back to the show. Donnie. Thanks man, I appreciate it. Appreciate you guys taking the time to talk with me. Oh, absolutely, same same to you. We we really enjoyed talking with you, man. I think it was almost two years ago now, so it's it's exciting to be able to circle back and catch up on stuff. And you've been pretty busy since then, haven't you. Yeah, yeah, really two years, it's been that long, I think so. I think that was two thousand fourteen. Oh okay, yeah, so yes, things have I think things have progressed quite a bit. Yeah, yeah, so so since that point, I mean, I think when we were talking last you know, the Rivers Divide had been out for a year. I think we talked about that a little bit. Um. But since then, you know, what have you been doing with your films or or otherwise as you know, what's what's new with Dunny vincent Um, there's a lot to be honest with you, and and you know what we're working on film wise, Um, you know, has has not really been done before, not really in the way that we're doing it. So the model of business, the model of how to make this work. There isn't a recipe to follow or somebody to to piggyback off of. So we we you know things, I swear our business plan or mindset probably evolves weekly, if not monthly, certainly annually. So a lot of a lot of things have been going on. And and uh, right now I've been fielding what seems like hundreds of death threats whether I better come out with a new film or else. That's funny. Yeah, oh yes, yes, yes, I'm of course being facetious. But I just had a guy write me a let or uh the other day, and it made me chuckle, and it he wrote in sincere fashion, but he said, hey, we so we can buy T shirts now, that's great, and we can buy um metal prints or poster prints of some of your artwork and photography, and that is great. However, when will there be another film? And I said, I said to my traducer Kyle, I said, it's really funny because I feel like in the in the tone that this gentleman is writing, I feel like he lent me a million dollars to produce five films or something like that, and he's saying, Hey, where's our next installment? But really, um, you know, the work is what I guess. I think people feel owed, you know, and and I don't feel like I owe anyone anything other than I really enjoy putting these films together, and I really enjoy that people have enjoyed them. So it's it's you know, it's all around. It fits. But um yeah, our our our model is indifferent. But we are working on a film right now that is about bear hunting, and we've been working on it now this last year and we're nearing the completion of it, so it's going to be coming out um late winter, early spring, probably late winter. So um yeah, man, it's just been so much going on. I can't even comment on the last two years. Yeah, that's incredible in it's even working on these films for you know, whatever this next installment might be. And then you were doing some stuff with Discovery Channel at one point right with there was it the Secret Network? Um, is that still happening or what's new on that front? Yep, I still do. I still do work with Seeker. Um it has kind of, um, it has kind of backed off a little bit. It's it's basically the balls in my court to produce as much or as little as I want. Originally, I don't think, ah, we draw the audience that Discovery was anticipating. Um, I'm trying to put this in a gentle fashion. Basically, you know, they worked with content teams and and content individuals that are going to deliver work that they can sell advertising around. Right. That's that that's their that's their main mode of operation. And so everyone loved our work. Everyone loved the quality of the work, everyone loved the storytelling. The companies they just have this impossible wall in front of them to get around the fact that we're hunters. It's amazing how quickly the human population has progressed beyond being being hunters in such a short time, and so these companies. That's not that the companies don't support it themselves. They've sat in the room with some of these uh you know people that are driving these companies, and there their directors that are their director of marketing, and and they love it. They love the idea. They're just so nervous about there uh customer that they just kind of stay a lane. So I still work for those guys. I still talk with those guys quite a bit, but it falls falls into however much or however little I want to work towards it. So so something similar to what happened with this whole spear hunting and under armor thing, right, Yeah, I mean, um, yeah, I guess hunters and I want to be careful here because I don't want to split my own throat. But hunters love to uh you know a lot of hunters love to go looking for a fight, and I don't. I don't. I don't want to propel that at all. I'd much rather than go looking for a fight. I'd much rather hunt ethically and hunt with conservation and popular and age dynamics and habitat reconstruction, in my mind, than I would to just go out and spear a bear or do something that is going to ride that line, attract a lot of attention and make people get their dander up, you know what I mean? Right? Definitely? How what kind of I mean when you mentioned the fact that you know, so many people have moved away from hunting, such a significant portion of our population is so very disconnected from nature that then hunting seems even farther beyond that. Um, it's so foreign for so many people. But at the same time, there does seem to be this resurgence in a certain segment of population of interest in kind of going back to our roots in a certain way. And I imagine with some of your work and your films, especially something like Who We Are, UM, which I think speaks to some of these reasons why we hunt that maybe don't seem as apparent to non hunt is when they look at their stereotypical hunter. Um. What kind of reaction did you get from that film and did that change your opinion at all about how the outside world sees hunting? Um? Well, first of all, kind of looking back a little bit at the transition of when most people were hunters and I'm not talking about original human societies where everyone literally all of us, everyone coming from these original thirty one societies UM, where where everyone was hunters and gathers. After that, as people kind of started to mitigate through time and UM, our world started to become recognized UM. People started to have the ability of going to the grocery store to get things for breakfast and lunch and dinner. People didn't have to be responsible with their lands and be responsible with their bowler with their rifle to provide for themselves. As as things started to get divided for us, this laziness, if you will, just kind of perpetuated into some of the modern day people today. They they people have this great disconnect with killing an animal. It's if you, if you take a step back as a hunter, it's not that difficult to see there disdain. Right, You're taking an amazing animals life. You are the executioner. You are taking this animal's life potentially for your saltish gains. You know. Especially some people get confused about quote unquote trophy hunting. They say, oh my god, you are killing that deer. Elecan just cutting that head off and going home with the head. People don't realize that that really doesn't happen anymore, or if it ever even really did happen beyond UM you know, the massacres of Buffalo, if you will. So UM as people, as as our lives became more and more mechanized, as our lives became easier and easier to UM maintain and to get our food and to have a shelter and to provide warmth for ourselves, it just kind of perpetuated. It just human being that now UM has this to stain towards killing because they have the ability to grow to our store and they may stop their foot and say that they're vegetarian or they're vegan. But still, these are very new ideas in the human diet. These are these are are very short lived, UM, I guess you know, dietary decisions or call a philosophy decisions whatever. UM, these things have not been along around very long. However, people stand on them hard and fast, and it's it's uh, it's there is a difficult group to talk to. However, I do think you know, when we came out with who we are UM, much of the population responded by, you know, we're very pro a little short if you like, I don't want to call it a film, but you know, hunters were of course all for it. People who understood factory farming and that there's a better way to get our food and that this is the more of a connected way to get our food, they understood it. People who are undecided, they while they maybe didn't pick a side, which I think is great, they definitely were encouraged to learn more about it or wanted to learn more about it. I received um lots of letters of people that had had questions to UM, ask me about you know, it's hunting sustainable for us? All? We're approaching nine billion people or eight billion people on the earth. Um, can we all go hunting? Is there enough wildlife for us all? And of course there isn't, and and there are issues that lying there with human population. But I do think that the majority of people have, if they're not hunters themselves, have an understanding that this is um who we are, this is where we've come from, and this is having a fantastic connection with your mother Earth. This is us with the greatest barrier of entry, the greatest investment in getting our food and participating. It's not just getting our food, but it's participating with the wilds. It's taking the time to watch small birds, taking the time to watch geese fly over your head. It's it's really enveloping yourself into the habitats that are around your home or that you travel to to be part of. And there's just a very small population that I received letters from that were absolutely against this, And I don't want to judge them at all, but I will say this. Their letters were borderline assinine. Their letters were borderline psychotic, saying very aggressive things, UM, wishing hate and disgust on my family, UM, saying things like, oh, well, I'm I'm I'm gonna just go by a mountain bike to arm and two chainsaws, and I'm gonna ride around the woods with my two chainsaws and I'm gonna cut all the trees down, and I'm gonna call it mountain bike chainsawing. And I'm gonna create a new sport, just like you created the sport of hunting. And if you actually look, it's obviously this. Obviously this gentleman was very passionate about this argument. But obviously if you sit back and look at his argument, it's almost complete nonsense. One has nothing to do with the other he is basically saying, he's equating hunting and fishing too. We go into wild places and just harvest, harvest, harvest, harvest, harvest. We literally, if you, if you if you've seen the if you've read the Dr. Seuss book about the Lower Acts, you know that this one flur is this creature that goes into the woods and creates this this item that he wants to sell to the population. There's so much connection in this story. We have this person who represents a population of people wants to go into the wild to chop everything down to harvest all the water, harvest, harvest all the trees, harvest everything that they can to create a product for the populations, and in doing so, you know, basically create a wasteland of the earth. And so that's what some of this very small population I think that's they're wrapping their heads around. Uh, they're confusing killing of animals with murder. Uh, they're confusing animals. They're they're adding anthropomorphism with animals. Through all of our connections to Walt Disney, um and and they just have went so far down the wrong path that their their argument is witless. And and like I said, borderline nonsense and psychotic, and so it's a very small group. So, again a long winded answer, I think the majority of people either support it or understand why we do it. They might they might not do it themselves, or they might not um you know, beyond the front lines if you will, but they definitely understand why we do it, why we do it. Yeah, it seems like they're like you said, there's that small minority of your extreme anti hunters who are not open to any other way of looking at things that you know, there's nothing we can say or do that's going to make them feel Differently, there's this much broader population of people who are kind of on the fence. They're kind of okay with it. But at the same time, I think they're very easily influenced by some of the things that might pop up in the media by way of the anti hunters or because of mistakes made by hunters that can be then easily used to to h to support some of these arguments by anti hunters about these different crazy theories that of course make no sense when you think about them logically. But when you put a picture of a deadline in front of a headline it seems appalling to people that grew up on the Lion King and Bambi and all this kind of stuff. I think so much though, to unders stand what we do and to understand hunting when you have none of that context, it's a really difficult thing to wrap your head around without thinking about it and without under without meeting people and talking about these types of things and understanding everything that goes into it. So I feel like it's increasingly and I don't know, I rant about this a lot, but I think it's increasingly important for us as hunters to you know, participate in that discussion and to be positive representative representatives of this hunting way of life or our community and what we do, because um more and more, if you if you mess up, or if we do something that you know obviously isn't what we want to be shown, is what hunters are all about. That stuff can now be spread across the internet so quickly or used in propaganda or whatever. I mean, it's it's that, that's that's exactly, That's exactly what I mean. Let's kill the rumors, Let's kill the negativity, Let's kill the hard line of black and white where you're either forward or against it. Let's kill that by hunting ethically, by um speaking clearly about our intentions with the habitat, our intentions with the wild places, our connections with the wild places. Let's if you show them the engagement that you have with in the wild, and you show them why you're there, and you show them what you're doing, and you're completely transparent, you're doing it with great ethics. The arguments just start to fall away. And like I said, then you reduce your population of naysayers down to people who are really never going to listen. And certainly I guess you should still take time to speak with them, but um, you might not wanna. You might not want to be your your head against the wall too bad. And like when people send me, if somebody sends me a letter and says, hey, I'm a vegetarian who I can't really get over that hump of killing an animal. I can't really get over that hump of eating flesh or watching you eat flesh. I just can you maybe explain it to me a little bit more. Absolutely, UM going to engage with him or her. We're going to have a conversation. This is a great opportunity for me to speak with them, not to persuade them, just to enlighten them into what I do. They can make up their own minds. They're an articulate individual. But if if if we're if we're engaging with the wrong audience, Um, you just might you just might FALLIFID on your face. So if somebody sends me a message saying I'm in a mountain like with two chainsaws, I uh, you know, I don't chuckle. It doesn't amuse me. I kind of roll my eyes and move on with my life. And I don't even think anything. You know, I don't. I don't even think twice about it. But in the same regard, um, you know, and I would be interested to hear how you guys feel. But about this gentleman that speared this bear. Uh and then under arm or all these people attacking under armoured because they you know, because they drop them. Um. Was it legal to spear to bear? I get it was. I haven't really listened to it. But let's assume that it was legal to spear the bear. Was it ethical? Well, that's an entirely another question. And um, is that is that the message that we want to send to the people that are kind of on the fence or the people that are looking for more information. Is that is that what we're trying to represent. We now have modern weapons, whether it be even traditional weapons of long bows, recurved bows, compound bows, crossbows, high part rifles, black powder shotguns. All these things are incredibly lethal. Um, why not choose something that is insanely lethal and it's going to make it quick and ethical? Right off to that, then challenging the I wonder if this spear is going to do it. I'm gonna sit on the ground and spear a bear over bait, and I wonder if this spear is gonna do it and and then create some controversy. I just that's that's the realm that I don't quite understand. Yeah, it's to play to play Devil's advocate. Just second, Donnie. If with maybe a thought process like that, then I guess why are we even bow hunting? If there is another weapon like a rifle or a shotgun that is maybe more accurate and more uh potentially deadly than all the things that could possibly go wrong with U with a bow? Well, I guess, um, I guess that is I guess the the bow is definitely uh uh more challenging weapon if you won't because you have to close the distance. But I don't know if I I don't know if you could make the argument on lotality with a bullet versus a broadhead. Um, I think that would be a tough argument too to make for in either case either way. And so, um, I see it is more of a distance thing. And um and uh and I'll hunting tactic things that I that I do, that I do anything again. You know, there are hundreds of animals killed all over the world like sphere every single year by Aboriginal tribes. And um, absolutely, I'm just saying in in I wonder if bringing it to the mainstream and airing it out and challenging people is the best message for us. That's that's, That's all I'm I'm curious about. Yeah, And I think there's I think there's a lot of a lot of things you mentioned there are right for us to be concerned about and thinking about. In my opinion. Um, though, I see what you're saying to Dan, and it's I think something kind of popped into my head kind of related to what you're mentioning earlier donning. With some people you can get engage with some people you just simply can't. I think it's good and necessary that we have conversations like this, both within the hunting community and outside of it. Um. You know, yes something is legal, but is it the right choice for us as a hunting community moving forward? And there's we often talk about this. There's this um, there's two different ways sometimes these touches of is go. There's where we get into a spat about our different opinions on how to hunt or something like that. More one guy says, you know, if you're using a crossbow, your your worst and you're not really a hunter. And then so and so says, well that's the only way to hunt. Blah blah. So there's some people that like to argue about the different semantics of hunting. And then there's the other side that gets that gets mad at you if you have a different opinion, because then they say you're tearing down the hunting community. You should never question anything of its legal support them um. And I think that either one of those two isn't very productive. I wish that more often, whether it be within the hunting type of conversation or just in the world, like when you're talking about politics or differences of opinion or anything. I think there's a serious um deficit of logical, reasonable, open minded conversation UM and being able to have an open mind two different ways of looking at the world. I've just become increasingly frustrated over the this past year, really, I mean, when it comes to all these things with politics lately, and then also when we talk about stuff like this in the hunting world, Um gosh, why can't we just talk about this stuff? And I think more and more so within the hunting world, we need to be willing to talk about these things and examine ourselves as hunters because if we don't, and if things like the under arm or thing happen more often, whether you think it's right or not what he did, If we have those bad pr type things when it comes to hunting, the more and more that happens, the greater chance I think there are for knee jerk reactions to happen by the general public that damage our long term privileges as hunters. UM. So I hope we can at least open ourselves up as a hunting community to talk about this stuff and to at least be open to thinking about these things. Is this the right thing for us moving forward and then being open to the different opinions on it? I agree? I agree. People UM, I think, more often than not love to enter an argument with their mind may up or you know, perception that they are correct. And uh, that's that's exactly what I'm referring to. I don't know. There are so many variables, um, that we don't even know about. Right. Let's like, let's say this gentleman with a with the spear and the bear. There are so many variables that we don't even know about. Yet we see UM one one whip lash. We see under armur making a business decision and reacting to the negativity. I'm guessing the negative comments on probably this gentleman or his wife's video. So you see under armor making a quick, uh decision, and then you see the whole rest of the world. Right, people are sending me videos of them burning their under arm or gear and and then you have that backlash over there. But really, no one is, like you said, no one is talking about you know, the ins and outs of of UM. I guess why he speared the bear or why bear hunt Batman or um. You know, if it's if it's legal and ethical, is it you know, do we do? We just support it regardless. And there's many many tactics of hunting that I have no interest in participating in myself. But um, I either I'm not going to denounce them if they're legal, but I'm probably not going to talk about them if I'm not in in support of them, because I'm certainly not the type that just blindly supports. If it's for hunting and it's pro hunting, then I'm going to support it no matter what. I'd much rather have the most information possible and make up my own mind. Yeah. Right, there was actually kind of interesting to bring this up. There's a kind of situation like this on Facebook right now which I think I should just shut down Facebook and not look at stuff on there anymore. Is it just endlessly frustrates me. Um. But somebody posted a picture of a deer they'd shot to some group message board or whatever, and they had shot this deer in the head and blew off blew off its mouth. Um, and this hunter killed it and killed it up, killed it. So he had the picture of him holding the deer with his face blown off, and he was a super happy hunter about it. And then you had, you know, you had the two sides of the argument, and then just go off in the thread here where you've got one side that says, congrats, you know it was a legal kill and nothing wrong with it, and then he had one side that said, how unethical or how you know this is you know, there's some serious concerns with this type of thing, thinking that's okay, and then you've got these people saying, well, and he shots a good shot, and just all the different things that might come up within that type of topic. I just read through this and it just it just saddened me. I think, just seeing the a, the vitriol, and then also then the unwillingness to think about the ethics of something like this or to think about the ramifications of that kind of thing. Um, I don't know, the whole thing just kind of put me in a bummer of a mood. Food and um, I worry about that stuff a lot, just the ram Yeah, it's going to be, yeah, it's going to be uh if if there is a downfall beyond the complete implosion of Earth through overpopulation and and just uh habitat destruction. If there's if if if it doesn't go that route. Um, and we have to make decisions on hunting in the in the future. I mean, it's it's things like social media and uh, it's going to be our our our downfall. You know, it's going to be are it's you know, it spreads, It spreads the negative message, and it gives anyone with a keyboard a voice. And anything can be toted as a fact. Anyone can give their anyone can spin it however they want. Uh, and and photos like that. You know, who knows you know that's uh. You know, I I myself guard my comments. I mean, listen to me even speaking, I myself guard my comments because I don't want to feel ten thousand emails tomorrow is saying it's my god given right to shoot a deer in the head when I I, you know, I may have my own opinions of it, you know, and and and we you know it it's everything is spun. Everything is spun, and and it's really tough to make h It's really tough to make a decision. And you know, back in the day, UM, let's call it nine if you will, and you and I are. Um, you know, you drive your car over to my farm and and we're gonna you and I are gonna still hunt my farm. And then we're gonna go over it's still hunt your farm. And you and I are still hunting along our field edge and uh, you know, a big door big buck jumps up and starts running, and you and I pull up. We take a running shot, and one of us is off and hits the animal on the head and drops in these tracks or uh, you know, something along that fashion. We you know, we go up there, we walk up to it. If it's not dead, we dispatch it as quickly as possible. If it is dead, um, you know, we we probably shake hands, grab the front leg, dragged it back to the barn and skin it out with not even thinking twice about it. And obviously that wasn't the intended bowl to shoot it in the head, but you know, it's it's what happened when we were hunting together, and we skin it out and split the meat, and you know, and and we go on our merry way. Well that that completely changes when you post a photo to the world of this deer. That is um, you know, that is that is destroyed in such a way or has been hit in such a way. It's just shocking for people. If anyone has any preparation about it, there there, their argument can really quickly be pushed the other direction when they see a deer that's been shot in the head, really really quickly. And uh, and so the times have changed, you know, and and it's we have to be I don't want to say we have to be careful because I don't want people to center their opinions and the things that they do. I just want to be honest with themselves and honestly, the way they go about thinks that this guy went hunting and he wanted dear me, and you know, I think needed dear me. It's probably a very select few people, but wanted dear me, and this dear presented a shot of its head. And this gentleman felt like he could make that shot, and that was a shot he want to take. I don't know. It's not a shot that I would take. I'll tell you that. And I'm not passing judgment on on what he did. It would because to your point, I would have done something different. But you know, you don't know the circumstances you don't know, and I don't know all the details either, but I think it just raised looking at all the various comments and opinions and there's just all there were all sorts of things mixed in there that make you kind of just I don't know, I don't know, just frustrates you a little bit. Sorry, Damn, what were you saying? I was just gonna say, Donnie, you know, throughout my entire life, I've been taught that. You know, communication is a two way street. You know, we have to do our best to try to communicate with them, and they have to try to do their best to try to communicate with us. How important is it, you know? And seeing what you do, you are doing your best to try to put hunting in a positive light and maybe showcase how it's supposed to be done. How you do it there, you know, the kind of the right way to explain to maybe people who are not pro hunting or maybe do or don't support it but are non hunters, um kind of that light. How important is it for us as hunters too then see things from their point of view if we're asking them to see things from our point of view. Yeah, and Dan just so you know, like when I put together my films are our films, I should say I'm obviously on the camera, but there's a lot of guys working on the things together. But when we put together our films, it's not to show I'm not showing hunters how it should be done. I'm not showing hunters the correct way that it should be done. I'm not showing hunters that I think I'm a better or more successful hunters than they are. I'm showing the way that I enjoy hunting. This is how I enjoy hunting. These are the things that I enjoy to see and talk about. And so I'm just putting forth, um, what what how I feel about hunting, and then people are open to interpret it themselves and and literally, uh, you know, the first time I wrote The Rivers Divide, I was writing, um, the script if you will the voiceovers, and I wrote it and handed at the Kyle and he's like, no, you're writing it for TV. And I said, well, you know, I'm kind of trying to tread lightly, Like don't let's not tread lightly. Just be honest. Let's just talk about let's talk about how you are sad, and will you can when you kill an animal. And so I thought, screw it, all right, whatever I'm doing it, I have nothing to lose from this. I'm putting it out there and just started hunting. I just started portraying hunting and hunting on film, the way that I hunt when I'm not on film, and the way I act and speak when when I'm not on film. And so I just try to do it honest to myself, and everything else can fall by the wayside. Like this. This new film that we're coming out with is about my journey as a bear hunter, because I have evolved as a bear hunter and and and we can talk more about that later, but I do think it's important that we sit down and listen to their viewpoints and um, try to look at things through through their lenses, if you will, and understand that's that's what I'm saying. Like it, if you actually take a step back, it is not that difficult to think about, um, how violent and how upsetting it can be to shoot a deer and maybe a little bit less of it's a doctor or something like that, because um, it just seems like the larger the animal, the bigger the brain. It seems like it has the more impact on us the more we relate to it. So I definitely, I definitely think it and I feel it myself when when I'm sitting in a tree and I see a big, mature dough headed my way and she's walking right down the past. You're gonna come within the distance of my bowl or my gun. Uh. One of the reasons my heart starts beating out of my chest. Um, is this, this decision that I'm about to make is a one way street. She if she walks past me and I make the decision, she dies today. Right now. She doesn't know she's going to die. She's just walking down this trail. I know she's going to die. And that is overwhelming. It's very very heavy for me. And it's a really big decision when I move forward with pulling the trigger or releasing my arrow, and so, um, I feel like I already I feel like I already understand the other side a little bit. The only thing that I don't understand is this big these There's many things that I don't understand with their argument. Um. If if we're describing them as side, but one of the biggest of some of the elements of their argument that I failed to see and when people are making what I believe to be really silly decisions with you know, um um, you know, having having birth control amongst deer, or or protecting deer from hunters, because people think, if we don't kill them, if we don't kill some of these animals, this population, then this population, this habitat, this wild area is going to perpetuate into a perfect balance. Right if we leave this forty acre woods alone, it is going to perpetuate into Walt Disney is going to perpetuate into the perfect forty acres. Nothing could be further from the truth. All of these animals, whether it be a gray squirrel, whether it be the non indigenous buckfiorn, whether it be the white tailed deer, all these animals are aggressively going to go after their habitat to go through their differential reproductive success. They want to reproduce. They want to be the biggest, strongest, most successful they can be so that they can have sex and produce offspring. Whether it's a plant, whether it's an animal, they are going to go after the resource with absolute Now, when we weren't here or we had limited numbers, these animals kind of kept each other in check and balances. Those days are long gone. Now we have to participate both in habitat reconstruction. We have to participate in selective hardness. We have to participate in bringing money into different economies so that animals have um a worth to them, to to ward off poachers, to employ people, to keep eyes on these populations, to try to to try to control this shrinking. Right, this is shrinking, no way, no other way to look at it, unless we have a catastrophic die off of the human population. There's one thing that's that's we cannot argue is that we are burning through our habitat. We are burning through our earth faster than any other species. That is the only thing that you can't argue. Yeah, and that's something that keeps me up a lot thinking about that kind of stuff. Yeah. Man, There's there's a lot of things here, kind of within this whole larger topic that keep me up at night. Um. And And to to interrupt you quick, Mark, that's why. And as silly as the sounds, that's why when I'm hunting, I'm talking into the camera or whatever it is. I just want to appreciate this moment right now. I have no idea what the next time is going to be like when I'm sitting in a tree, or sneaking up on a mule deer, or sitting in a ground blind or sneaking up on a water buffalo or whatever. I just want to be super present when I'm hunting, when I'm fishing, when I'm even just outdoors scouting or just taking a walk with a friend, I want to be super present and I wanna appreciate the blue jay, the connecticate warbler, the brook trout, the garter snake. I just I just really really really reduce my interactions. I really reduce my mind down to just really appreciating all these simple things that are right in front of my face and try not to get caught up in the you know, this fit that we have to be successful. Yeah, that's definitely one of my biggest um oh qualms of myself. I guess is I am definitely guilty of sometimes getting so caught up in the you know I don't want to. I don't know what it is that the hunt so consumed with trying to get that quote unquote success that sometimes I forget to pay attention to the simple things and everything in the in the greater why. Um, I constantly need to remind myself to kind of step away from myself for a moment or from the actual task at hand, and just remember why it is we're out here in the first place. UM. And I think when you if you can do that, a lot of things kind of fall into place naturally. But it's easy these days with and I think we're as guilty as anyone sometimes just being in the media. You know, it's so easy to get consumed with trying to kill the next big deer, or to do this or that and post a picture, and I mean all these things. Is easy to get worked up and caught up in that kind of stuff. But get this, get this ego food. I couldn't agree more. I was just talking to Tile today, Colin Nick, and I thought, imagine if next year in the United States, And not that I'm against them at all, I absolutely love them in fact, but what if in the United States next year for a year, we just said absolutely no trail cameras, none. You have to just go to the woods, climbing your tree, stand, climbing your groundline, or go sit behind your binoculars and glass the water hole. If you're in Arizona. You have to sit there and glass the water hole in morning and night to see if a giant muley is is coming to take a drink, or a desert big horns coming to take a drink. No trail cremors whatsoever. You just I would be astounded if sportsmen and women didn't go to the woods with uh, with a heart that was a lot more full of the experience than when they go there with looking for this dear to do this and get it on film and to get a picture of it, put it on Facebook, put it on Instagram, whatever. We're all guilty of it. I just wonder, um, if the enjoyment factor would go off the charts. Yeah, that's interesting question. I mean it's so true. I mean I'm I'm guilty of it too. I've become so all consumed of that kind of stuff. And I would be very interesting to see because part of what I personally love about hunting, or one piece of it is that journey, sometimes you know, tarding one specific buck like I am this year. Um, But then it's also like sometimes that it you lose something because of that, you lose all that. It's almost like I found myself, you know, over the course of October and November, every hunt that didn't you know, get me one step closer to killing this one buck. I it was I wasn't enjoying or I found myself like upset, and I'm like, why I shouldn't be upset about that, or frustrated by this, or not enjoying seeing a beautiful deer having that experience, or being out in nature and stuff. There definitely is that risk of um of losing some of those things that there's there's some great things about trail cameras and management and all that kind of stuff, but there's definitely risks that if you let that get out of hand, it can you can lose sight of some of the bigger things. So almost like having a certain expectation going into the woods is ruining the overall experience of hunting. Yeah, you're looking past the things that are just before you. You're looking past them. You're looking through the chain lying sense instead of looking at it. And and it's it's something that I'm challenging myself with because we all slip into it, and in creating films is my job now and uh, and so you know, I slipped into it too. But I I have come through this evolution like a lot of people are, you know, like we started our conversation out with a lot of people are saying, hey, man, when's the next film gonna come out? We need the next film, and and uh, you know, I I feel like I don't owe anything to anyone, and I just want to produce the next film when it's honestly done, and when it's honest to who I am and and what I am, and then I'll release it them. And and my point is, I'm just trying to pull myself real myself back in from the from the you know, slipping into the exact same rat race. And I've actually been contemplating lately, um doing quite a bit of hunting in the in the future here where I pull my trail cameras back um and still do the management. I still want to manage the land. I really enjoy adding the much needed betting cover and food to the properties that I hunt for the deer, squirrels, pheasants, turkeys, snakes, turtles, everything. I really enjoy improving the habitats. So I would still do that. But then when I go hunting, um, you know, take a recurve. Uh, and uh, pull on my woolends and go take a recurve and and and just take a step back and empty the backpack out and get rid of all the gadgets and this, that and the other thing, and and uh just try to clear my mind and enjoy the experience a little bit more. When when you kind of watch these surfing films you listen to these people talk about, uh, you know, find trying to find the perfect ride or you know, find the perfect wave and be caught in that quote unquote perfect moment. Are you kind of a purest when it comes to hunting and trying to find like the search for that perfect moment? Yes, yes, I I yes, I've um. Yes, it falls in lines with with like what what you said, Um, that gentleman shooting that deer in the head. I wouldn't do that. Why wouldn't I do that? And that doesn't that doesn't fit my bill of being a hunter that doesn't mind not not a person that that as soon as that took place, um, that that interaction would be tainted for me. And uh, and that's not what I'm looking for. I actually had a friend of mine and this is when I first started hunting. Um, I was calling in a turkey, a big tom turkey, and he was gobbling his head off, and he was full strout and he was coming and uh, something wasn't right. He didn't like something, and he wasn't really spooked. But he came out of full strout and just kind of skirted the edge of the field and went down in the timber. And I had a shotgun with me, and I jumped up when I ran down the ridge, and I stuck around this oak tree. And here he comes walking on this logging road, maybe like picken yards away from me, and I just let him walk on by. And later on I met up with my friend and said, yeah, how was your morning? I said, oh, man, I had this big tom coming to me. I'll never forget it. It was a picked corn field. He was gobbling every staff or every second step. I could see his big beard was just slapping against his chest. And Um, I was sitting with my back to the east, and so the sun was just firing up his feathers, and I can I can see this as though I'm still sitting against that I was sitting against a wood aisle. I can still see this as though. I was sitting against a wood pile, and he came down and then I told him the story as just as I had just told you. Uh And he said, why did you shoot him? And I said, he didn't do the deal. And he said, man, you you read too many books and you watched too much TV. That's what he said. He said, you read too many books, you watched you watched too much TV. I said, no, that's that's not at all. I just wanted him to do the deal. I wanted to trip him with my call to my decoy. I wanted the trout to build up and eat the fly. I just you know, if if if the trout goes up to eat the fly and it turns out the last second and I hooked hooked the trout and the caudle fin, and I real admit, it's not the same for me. It just isn't. And um, you know I don't live in a cabin in northern Alaska five miles from a grocery store. If I if I did, and I needed a moose to make it through the winter for me and my family, and a cow moose presented only her head to me. Uh on in a in a late October hunt. You bet your ass I would shoot her in the head. But that's not where I am right now. And so my my personal degree of hunting success and my enjoyment comes with a set of standards, both ethical and and heavy with conservation. It's just who I am. Yeah, I think it's interesting, and I think a lot of us go through an evolution. We each have our own individual evolution as a hunter. I think, um, and I think I'm I'm getting to the point where I feel more and more like you do in those types of moments, Donnie, where you know, for a long time as I just want to kill a deer, and then I finally was able to do that consistently, and then I was like, all right, I want to kill a mature deer or a bigger deer. And then I feel like I've proven I can do that. And now now I'm like in this weird place where all of a sudden getting to kill I don't know, I'm in a weird place where we were just talking before you joined us, Donny, about how I've been after one buck this year. Um, it's been for two years. I've been after him, and I've been hunting him and I've seen him twenty times and now I just found out he's still live and I could take a muzzleloader out there, and I actually just saw him recently in daylight, and I think I could probably kill him with a gun. And now I'm thinking, I don't know if I want to, Like, I don't know if I even if I even want that hunt to come to an end this way. Um. And it's yeah, yeah, and I it's just really interesting to have all these different feelings about the how and the why. Um. And if anything, I guess it just reminds me and brings home the fact that hunting is a very complicated, complex thing. Um. And see, maybe that gentleman Mark, maybe that gentleman with the spear, maybe that maybe that was the next step for him, Right, That's that's those are the elements that we don't know. That's that's what I'm talking about. Maybe that was the next step for him. Yeah, yeah, which which goes back to original point of the importance of of being open to talking about these things and open to other people's perspectives on these kinds of things. And hey, yeah, it's man, there there's so many different takes and I think The issue is when we get so hard line on this is the one right way to do it, and if you don't do it the way I do it, or look at it the way I look at it, then you're an idiot. And I you know, I'm gonna lambast you. That's I think where we're get into trouble. Um. But but man, we've been talking about all sorts of these these deeper parts of hunting. I'd be I'd have some angry listeners if I didn't at least ask you about the more surface level aspects of hunting too. Being your deer hunting this year, I know you've been doing a little more deer hunting um recently, and I want to know how that's been going for you. But real quick, before we get to that, we need to pause for word from our sponsors of this episode, Redneck Blinds and Redneck Blinds is offering a few special deals this month for Wired hunting listeners. But first, I recently spoke with Bill Winkie of Midwest Whitetail about how he's been having success with these blinds, in particular, how he used one of these to kill a this year he called Lefty, and I wanted to share that with you. One of the things that I've had the most success with over the years is hunting um corn fields right after the farmer combines those, and that can be really challenging because the deer come from all different directions, so it's pretty tough to hunt those spots from a tree stand. But they're so attractive that you want to find some way to hunt it um. You know, you get the weird wind directions that may not coincide with the day that you want to be in there, and and that sort of thing. So what I've started doing now is putting these rednecklines on trailers and pulling them into the fields while the farmer is pulling out with the combined So basically he's finishing up while I'm pulling in. And the deer have gotten so used to farm equipment over the years in the Midwest that it's no big deal to them. I mean, uh, a wagon sitting in a field or something like that is nothing to a deer, so they don't know that that blind is anything other than a piece of farm equipment. So that's the I it on this hunt for this buck that I had nicknamed Lefty. It was the same day that the farmer combined that I drove. I drove the wagon or the trailer in there with the blind on it and set it up. Two days later, I was finally able to get back there and hunt that spot, and uh, the buck came out at thirty yards fifteen minutes left in legal shooting time, never even looked at the blind. Um, he stepped out of the brush and really kind of caught us by surprise. I mean we were about ready to pack up and leave because we just felt like there was just one of those nights, you know, where nothing was going to show up, And the only day that came out was the buck that I was hunting. So it was kind of a kind of a cool little uh twist of that hunt. But the point is he paid absolutely no attention to that blind and it'd only been there for two days. Uh. To him, it was a piece of farm equipment. And having the flexibility to be able to do that, um, it's super important. And the redneck blinds, I mean are are overall their grape blinds and hunt out because you have so many shooting window options. So when you move into a field like that, uh, you know you've got so many different places where you can shoot, and the deer I always going to cooperate and you walk right past the front of the blind. So it's nice to have all the corner windows that you can swing open real quick and easy and get shots wherever you need them. M The other thing too, is, like I said, the wind direction can be pretty variable for you, and these blinds are really good because you can you can shut all the windows um and that bottles your sent up inside and then at the last second you can swing them on the corner windows open and make your shot. So that's kind of the quick summary of how that hunt was successful for that buck named Lefty, but we've done it on many other deer too, under almost identical situations. So if you are interested in trying something out from Redneck Blinds through the end of the year, you can use the promo code wired that's w I R E D to get one off one of their pay bail blinds, fifty off one of their soft side of blinds, twenty dollars off one of their very comfortable hunting chairs, or twenty dollars off one of their te post feeders. So again at checkout, use promo code wired to get a hundred dollars off the bail blind, fifty off the side side, or twenty bucks off their chair or te post feeder. You can go to Redneck Blinds dot com to see all of those. And now back to the show, and Donnie was just about to tell us about how his recent white tail hunts have been going. Uh, it's been going. I mean, uh that the conversation I just told you about that I had with Kyle where I said that would be fantastic to take a step back from show cameras, take a step back from all the gadgets with you either on the ground or in the tree, and and just you know, a good bowl, good parapin oculars, good set of wool, and just enjoy your time in the tree or on the ground, wherever it may be. Um. That stemmed from my dear hunting in North Dakota this year because I basically, quote unquote, I don't even like to say it this way, but I basically know of all the books that live on this ranch, right, I've gotten all of their pictures a thousand times and um, and through that process I know who was the oldest, not the biggest, the oldest um, And so I started fixating on this deer this year that I call Beefcake. And I call him Beefcake because uh, he's just has a massive body. He has you know, not not nothing to write home about frailers. So he would probably score if you're a score guy. He'd probably met in the upper one thirties as an eight pointer. Maybe if he's bigger than I think, he might met in the low and forties as an eight pointer. Um. But his body was just so huge and he's so tough. I've watched him chase a couple of other big box off of dose and and fight and win and saw it was like, you know, he just I just liked who he was and and knew he would be difficult to hunt. So I picked him, but in inadvertently I ended up passing every other box that lives on the ranch. I saw them all. There's only one other one that I didn't have a chance to shoot, and um, and I saw him twice, he just was too far away. And that was that was a deer who I know was five and a half years older night, and selfishly I wanted to see when he's six and a half years old, but to answer your question. Like, I went out to North Dakota early in September just to kind of scout, and I knew I was going to have access to this branch for the rut, so I didn't want to kill a deer early, even though it was deer season. I just want to watch him check everyone out, kind of learn their behaviors and really started to gain this connection with them just personally and uh. And I went out there and did that and it was incredible, and I went back during the rut two weeks to do it. The first was ten days of the two weeks where somewhere in between sixty and seventy degrees during daytime highs, so the mornings were non existent. But I never barely saw a deer in the morning. In fact, I was seeing all of my movement morchs throughout the rut the first two weeks. I was there November five and so November seven eleven, I was seeing almost all of my movement between ten am and noon, and then I wouldn't see anything essentially in the morning or in the evening. There was just a movement in the middle of the day. And I came very very close killing beefcake. Um. I set up. I set up, and this is this is kind of the cool part about doing your homework. And and I talked a lot with Mark Durry. I know you guys have interviewed Mark before talking market floor. Is that right? Yes? Mark a good friend of mine. UM, and he's the one I go to for advice because I think he is the greatest deer hunter in the world. And and you know him or him or Leelakoski or whatever, both friends of mine, both um a hundred times better deer hunters than I will ever be. And so I talked to more often when I'm stumped or when I need some reassurance, and and and so I I ended up kind of doing a Mark like set up. I set up a stand on the south side of this wood lot, and I thought, okay, if we have a northwest wind, Um, beefcake. I've watched him here before, from way up on the in the hills. I've watched him skirt this edge, and I think he you know, this is all in my head. I think he's sent checking this whole betting area for doze. And then he does this big loop, crosses the river and goes around this whole big other loop and then and I'm I'm judging this off of my actual visual sightings from the hill, using my my binos and spawning scipe and also my trail cameras, right because then I'm like, okay, I lost sight of him here, and then I got a picture of him here at noon, you know, so I'm starting to put this stuff together. Well, he came down the trail just like the doctor ordered. Perfect. William Altman, my photographer, saw him first, and he's like, hey, Donnie, Beefcake is coming right here, perfect, just like we want. And he was already at like thirty yards when we first saw him, because he kind of has to come through this little s curve. So he just turned to me and said, hey, Beefcake right here, just you know, exactly like we wanted. And I grabbed my ball. Isn't isn't that even funny? My sentence structure there exactly how he wanted. It's so repecurous. And so I spin around and I worked myself around and he's coming. I range everything, the wind is perfect, and um, there must just have been a little swirl right when it's just like hunters sometimes I think, aren't wrapping their heads around this. But air is just like water, so it's very fluid, and so there's little eddies and little currents here and there. And so as much as we like to think we have our wind right at the base of our tree or in a little ravine um, it might not be perfect. And so he just came and that he needed to take thirteen more steps to be in my shooting. And he just stopped, stayed very still for five seconds, turned around in his tracks, had his tail talk between his legs, and he walked out of there with absolute purpose. And I loved hated watching him walk away, loved watching how he walked away. He just walked away angry. He was upset that something had disrupted his path. I could see his muscles are all flexed and as he walked away, this was really cool for me. He kept his one ear, he kept his left ear um facing like quartering backle for his body to catch anything that might be off his left side. He kept his right ear talked straight back to see if something was directly on his tail. So he was protecting his left side quarter and his straight back. And then as he walked and as he started to go through that es curve. He pulled his left ear in um and and quartered his right ear out to do just the opposite because he was going to be turning to that blind side. And and of course I didn't notice on the need of this sinceil I watched it frame by frame from the camera afterwards. But I was just breath taking to see him and and when he walked away, and you know, there's I didn't curse it or curse the experience with all. I just thought, you know, that son of a gun gets to be a deer for another day, and excuse me, and he gets to enjoy you know, he gets to enjoy the stars tonight, and and you know, he just gets to enjoy being him a little bit more. And and uh, you know, he got me. He he just had my number that day. So beyond that, after that, it just went downhill. It just I started getting This is embarrassing to admit, but I just started getting frustrated. And um, I literally would sit in Spot A. He showed up and stopped Spot B. I'd show up and I should spot be. He showed up Spot A. UM, so then I'd show up. I'd sit Spot B, like three days in a row, because I was like, he's toggling back and forth. So I'm gonna fit Spot B three days in a row and he'll he'll make an appearance. And then um, and then he didn't show up at all anywhere, just completely disappeared. Obviously obviously got with a dough, right. So then I'm sitting over the only a couple of days left, and I'm like, oh, he's gone. He's he's hunkered up with a little SUSI que guess today I'm gonna hunt Spot A. So I hunt Spot A. Showed up at Spot B out of the blue. So then the last day I'm like, oh, I'm gonna hunt Spot BE. Showed up a spot when I came home. That's a mature buck, right, it's hard. He's seven, he's seven years old. Wow. They they they've got a way of avoiding the script. They definitely. And that's why we do it though, right, I mean that is why we do it. Yeah, I I could have shot everyone else other than this other deer that um William named Roger. Don't ask me why I named Roger. He just did one day and it's stuck and and uh and yeah, it's just is what it is you know, it just I could have shot every other deer there. And that's that's why I kind of thought like, if I didn't have a turtle camera, if I didn't spend so much time watching the deer, which I don't regret, I would always even if I got rid of all my turial cameras, um, I would still glass my face off because it's my absolute favorite thing to do it. But I'll be honest with you, I use I use Reconics cameras when I can afford them. I have some other branded cameras also, but I buy Recall X when I can afford them and when I can pick up that little card. And I watched the video because I've been putting them on a video a lot. I see the video, it's just like, not only do you get information, you just get to see how they move, how they interact with each other, and are they bullying each other? You know? Is there a fight? Are they dogging a dough? You know? How are they going under this fence over this spence? I just I'm just I love it. I love watching them fascinating animals. So okay, so what scenario do you think you enjoy more? Would it be the scenario where you go to a brand new property and un you know nothing and it's just pure surprise and happenstance and you shoot something. UM or the scenario where you do know everything, You've managed it, you've scouted, you know what's out there, you have one deer in your mind. I mean, it's interesting because there's a certain level of unique amount of satisfaction that you can get out of either or UM. I don't even know what I'm enjoy more because I've done both now and there's something really cool and special about both different scenarios. Yeah, and I don't know whether in fact I'm leaving UM. I leave on Tuesday to go to Illinois for a week, and I'm hunting a property that I know nothing about. I'm going there for a fundraiser to UH. Essentially, ten guys are going in to hunt this place, and a lot of the money, a lot of proceeds from us paying the hunt there go to this group of special needs children. UM. And And so I know, talking about the property, I don't want to know anything about the property. Like the guy that runs the property has messaged me a couple of times, say oh, let me send you some trail photos, and I said, don't don't send me any trail photos. I don't even care what's there. I'm just coming. There's I'm not hunting with a camera. I'm just coming to hunt. And the first mature boss that walks past me is getting an arrow. And until that happens, or if it does happen at all, I'll just shoot my dough or does. I don't know what's legal this year in Illinois, but I'll either shoot a mature dough or I'll shoot mature does until I get an opportunity at a five year old or plus older box. And if I don't, who cares? If I do super And the first one that comes by doing it, I don't care. If he's got pictures of a two double drop time kickers stickers, I don't care. I don't want to know. The first big boy to watch past me is getting a narrow. Yeah, yeah, there's something kind of I don't know what. I honestly don't know. I'm just like you. I could I've done both, I don't. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, there's there's something. Yeah, I don't know either. There's something cool about the idea of you just never knowing what might pop out, because I think a sense of mystery has been lost a little bit when we have these hypermanaged properties. Um, which is so cool. I mean, like we've been talking about, but there's a little bit of something that did you lose maybe a little bit. So I don't know. Um, Yes, yes, I was gonna, I was gonna kind of pivot a little bit. Um. I was just curious, what do you think you learned from that two weeks stint in North Dakota and having those close encounters. Um, is there anything you do? And I think for a lot of us every year, at least for me, I kind of sit back and look at the season and say, what what big new thing did I can I take away from this? What did you take away from your from your two weeks there? Um, well this is obvious, but there is nothing that fools they're sent sense of smell, nothing, period, end of story. Nothing. There isn't a product, there isn't a machine, There isn't a spray, there isn't a wash, There isn't anything that can I've done it all, I've attempted it all. It's I don't believe in any of it. So UM that that in and of itself was yet another learning experience um to to have happened to me. Um. I'm not a gadget guy at all, but I know, UM, I know, UM I've used Um have you guys ever used ozonics machines? Yep? And I've used osonics in the past, and UM, I know osonics does exactly what they say it does. And UM if you use osonics in a ground blind excuse me, UM, I think it is terribly effective. UM. But uh, you know, we used a couple of units in the tree stand there this year for the first time ever, and when the wind was bad, the wind was bad just the way, it was like nothing saved us. And so I think I seem to continue to learn that exact same um circumstances, that you just can't beat their nose when when the wind is in their favor. And UM. So that's one Number two is even though I've been on this property for four years, UM, I felt like I should have scouted This year. I poked around in new areas more than I ever have before, and I really wish I would have made it out to this property in the spring and scouted it just a little bit more in finding out different travel corridors and different bedrooms, because I think I could have been a better deer hunter in the fall had I done my homework in the early spring before green up. And uh, and I just felt like I was a tiny bit out of position on a few things that I really feel like now having spent two weeks there, I could have dialed things in a little bit more on out I looked around a little bit more. But um, you know, that's basically it. That's that's I still, I still and I relied too heavily. Um, this is the other thing that I learned in this. I don't just place every one or not, but I just learned again that I relied too heavily on cameras, you know what I mean, just just kind of like what we're talking about. I relied too much on that information and not just being present, and I ended up chasing my tail and then just rather than sitting back and looking at the conditions and looking at what might be going on this present day, oftentimes I used old information and and thus was always just a little bit behind, whereas if I would have if I didn't have the old information and I would have sat back and just analyzed things face value. I just wonder if, if um, if I would have been had another opportunity or would have had a different experience, If that makes sense. Yeah, you know, do you ever find yourself It sounds like maybe you do where you you find yourself in this internal battle between like a gut instinct and then like overthinking and like over analyzing the situation based on all the data. I find myself in a constant battle between like what all this a lot? Yeah? Yeah, it's a constant chess match. But sometimes they feel like we go too far. Yeah, and that's that's that's what I'm talking about. I wonder, I wonder if um, I wonder if we just if it's just too much information, Like for instance, Mark jury genius deer hunter. What has made Mark a genius? Isn't that he goes out in the yard and grabs a handful of dirt on a September twelfth morning and tossed it in the air and said, you know it has this connection where he says, yes, hunt the acorn stand. I really feel like, you know, no, that's not it at all. The reason Mark is a fantastic deer hunter. And some people say, oh, it's because he has these great properties. No, it's not the reason he's a fantastic deer hunter is because he has taken data that he knows. He has used trail cameras, not in the manner that we're talking, but he has then since went back and looked at variables that are changing to cause such behavior, whether it be a dope, a young buck, or a mature buck. And in doing that, in organizing these findings, he's been able to see trends to where now I know, some people think, like, you know, he's he's able to kind of, you know, make make guesses or decisions on where a deer is going to move that are kind of almost hauntingly accurate. But all he's doing is he has a really great set of clean data, either in his office or in his brain probably vote where he extrapulates, um, the best laid plan over a huge amount of area, a huge amount of data. Rather, I'm sorry, um. Whereas like, for instance, what I was doing in North Dakota, I was looking at a single data set. I was looking at Oh my god, Mark came down here this morning at nine am and got coffee I'm going to sit here and kill Mark tomorrow morning at nine am when he goes to get coffee. But but you only freaking get coffee on Wednesday, and it's day. It's not o'clock. Where's Mark, you know? And whereas where it's where's Mark? Jury has looked at these he he just has more data that he's extra extrapolated from. And that's you know, that's uh, that was the pitfall that I saw him to this year. That I just think that we second guess ourselves. We sit there and go stand a or stand or grown blind air b or or you know, even guys that, even guys that on stock Hunt, you know, I do a lot of spawn Stockholm, even those guys. You know, you get up in the morning you're looking for sheep. Oh do we go down drain and Jane already go down drainage B. Last year I saw a couple of good rams and drain and j But I've never even really looked down drain as B. Which one you want to go down tonight? Today? Uh? Uh? You know you start to you can talk to yourself into a circle. Yeah, that is the truth. The the analysis and the data and all that stuff. It's fascinating and I love it and I obsess over. But sometimes yeah, it can definitely get you chasing your tail too. I want, I wanna. I want to jump back to something you said a while ago, totally off topic here but didn't offend you. No, no, not at all. Um. You told you mentioned that your buddy says that you read too many books and watch too many movies that maybe influenced why you approach hunting the way you do or something on those lines. What what kind of stuff do you read? What kind of stuff do you watch? Um? Lots of different stuff. I don't watch much. Um. I don't even really have TV at my house. I actually have actually have rabbit ears at my house TV. Um. Yeah, so, UM, I do take some time to watch football a little bit here and there. I do like football, but yeah, like I I don't have the Outdoor Channel of Sportsmans Channel and any of that stuff. I don't watch any hunting. Mark Drury sends me his films and I sit down and watch those and and uh so I watched that stuff in regard to hunting, but it's in regards to reading. Like right now, I'm reading two books I'm reading actually right here in my office, I'm rereading for probably the fourth or fifth time. Uh, Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold. You guys, Yeah, I think. I I think literally all hunters should be required to read this book in hunter safety or do you know, I don't know. I don't know how you prove somebody read a book, take a test, write a book report. I don't know. But I think all hunters, fisherman, anyone that wants to spend their time outdoors and engage in in while there's a wildlife, I think need to read this book. Like I said, I read this thing constantly. It's I carry this book with me even on cheap hunts. That's that tells you how much I actually on that book. And I'm reading a book right now called wild Ones. Uh. And it says that sometimes this smaying weirdly reassuring story about looking at people looking at animals in America. More album. Maybe there's a poor bear on the cover. It's New York in New York Times one Notable Books, New York Times Book Review. Yea, So I'm reading this because, uh this I say so many things that I think hunters are going to take offense too but so I'm reading this. I had a conversation with a guy this year that wants me to go. He wants me he wants to book a polar bear hunt for me. He wants me to book a poor bear hunt through him. And I said, I, I don't know how I feel about or bear hunting. I said, I would love to go polver hunting. I would love to see a polar bear. I would love to see the wilderness that that polar bear calls home. I just don't know much about what's going on with the polar bear. And he said, well, what do you mean, I said, I I don't know. You'd hear from different news outlets that their habitat and their numbers could possibly threatened. He goes, oh, that's hogwashed. I said, well, very well, could be very well to be. And he said I went on a poorlar hunt last year and I saw eight bears. And I was like it made me chuckle because I was like, Okay, great, he saw eight bears. Devil's advocate, what if you saw the only eight bears in five hundred thousand square a mile. I have no idea if you did or didn't. I'm just saying what if for some reason there was a sal and heat and you saw all eight bears that live in the entire area. Whatever. So I just said, you know, all I said to him was, if you talk to hunters, there's tons of pollar bears. If you talk to biologists that are studying the polar bear, um, the data is inconclusive, I think probably right now. And if you talk to quote unquote environmentalists, the polar bear are incredibly threatened and we may see them extinct or extirpated, if you will, in our lifetime. And so I don't know if any of that is true. But I saw the pullar around the cover of this book. I was actually at Discovery Channel uh speaking to a group when I saw this uh in in Manhattan, New York, and I saw this book and I just thought, huh, that's quite interesting. So I thought that title that sometimes just being weirdly reassuring story about looking at people looking at animals in America taught my eye. So I just started reading it. So, um, those are the two things I'm reading right now, and and there's a host of other things. I also read a lot of older books too, from you know, like Jack O'Connor and and those boys, because they it inspires me, like Fred Barrett just inspires me that these guys went out and hunted. You know, they're big expeditions. They went out not knowing really where they were going or what they want to accomplished. But they went out to seek adventure and to find the story, and and and they came back to fantastic stories and memories, and it's really inspiring to me. I wish I was born in a different era. I wasn't, but I think if I can still if I think, if I can still find a story worth telling, I think hopefully we tell it in such a manner that people will still want us to keep bringing them films. Yeah, I feel the same way. I read a lot about the eighteen hundreds, and I'm just fascinated with that time period and just I'm always wondering what it would have been like to come over a hill and see a herd of a thousand buffalo, or to to be on the Great planes and to have Grizzly walking along a river bank, you know in Nebraska, um or all these different things like like you said, there's um I don't know, there's some fascinating things that have been running around and happening in this on this continent, and hopefully we as hunters can maybe contribute to to keeping some of these wild places and animals around longer for us to keep creating some of those stories. Yeah, and honestly, that's so that's kind of the appreciation, right Mark dance, Like what if this is? What if this is the wild West? Right now? What if? What if on your deathbed or your son's deathbed or daughter's death beds, what if you get to say, yeah, we used to get this. We used to pack our bags, a pack our bows on our guns, and we used to your grandpa and I. We used to hop on an airplane. We fly up to uh, you know, white Horse and the Yukon and from there we'd hop on a little float plane. We'd fly into a lake, we climb up in the mountains and we'd hunt all sheet. Can you believe that? Like, what if this is the wild West for your children? What if this is really silly to think about, but what if your children are eating you know, can group meal replacement stuff, because literally we have eaten ourselves out of house and home and everything is a tarmac or everything is covered in concrete or tar, and really the wild places have have gone away? What if? You know? So that's you know, trying even though we're not in the eighteen hundreds right now, I'm the same as you. I I look at those days longingly or read about those days longingly. But you know what if right now is our wild West? Yeah, I hope not. I hope we can hold onto some of these places. But I know what you're saying, that stuff keep cranking out population, Yeah, sure do. I've been in a weird and I don't want to take us in a weird direction, but I've been in a weird kind of funk the last few weeks where like I just haven't been interested in writing about how to kill deer or talking about like tactics or you know, all the stuff that I usually do on this podcast on my website usually it's usually strategy focus and all that kind of stuff. I can't stop thinking, and I don't know, my mind is completely consumed with the future of this country and continent, and like the wild life and wild places, like I'm just becoming So I don't know if this stuff I love so much, I feel like there's so many forces against it. There's so many different people and things and just forces of civilization stuff that are just chipping away at it, chipping away, and it chipping away, and it has been for a long time, and it's just getting so much stronger every day. And I'm just like more and more feeling like I need I want to do something. I want to I just somehow want to feel like I'm somehow keeping that from happening, contributing, and and uh, it's just it's all I can think about, all I can read about, It's all I can like. I don't know. I just I've just become more and more and I think I think many of us you just want to somehow give back to this thing that has given us so much. Um M, in the same way, I'm the exact way, and I don't I don't even get I don't even get consumed with the tactics and the strategies, and I try not to anyway. I mean, obviously I do my very best to be successful, but um I'm much more want to engage in the experience and I'm much more want to be present in in in the wild places than than anything else. Yeah, what were younna say Dan, I just said, it's it's levels. It's just for me, like I have goals in the white tail woods, but for for turkey. Man, I've killed a hunt, I've killed fifty times turkeys, it feels like, and I don't even care if I kill another tom turkey in my life. But I do want to take my buddies out who have never hunted before and introduced them into hunting through turkeys. I want to. I want to introduce my kids to turkey hunting and get them. Last year was one of the best hunting seasons hunting turkey hunting seasons I've ever had. Where uh, the first day we got skunked. The second day I called in a bird for my wife. She killed one. The next morning I called in a bird for my stepdad and he killed one. I didn't even fill a tag, but it was it was so awesome to be there and to enjoy that with other people, where you know, that's the level that I'm on right now, and that's to try to, you know, be there for others, if that makes sense. Definitely, Yeah, that's very rewarding. I do the exact same thing. I love it. In fact, like when I find a I have a hunting lease here in Wisconsin. I find a mature box. Um nine phront of the time. I started calling my buddies that have never arrowed a big mature box and trying my very best to put them on it because it's just I just absolutely love it. Love love seeing them shaking in their boots. Love, it's just incredible. I'm not quite there yet that I'm sending my buddies to shoot the mature bucks on my farm, but hopefully one day, one day I'll get Yeah, I know, I I hear you, but I I kind of keep this. I keep this property to myself. And actually I think I'm gonna start filming on it next year because it's it's a hundred and fifty three acres and it's just your average little farm or average little hunting least, and so I just kind of want to start filming on it to see what kind of crazy cool stuff we can capture and then just you know, release some small shorts to show people like this is look within your backyard? Is that is that the farm that that Ben Harshin from HUNTERA was over helping you with some stuff on m Yeah, Ben, and I have done quite a bit of work on it and and that's going to continue this year and and um, we haven't had a chance to film on it deer hunting this year, but um, but you know, everything's just becoming more mature, and from the plants and the cuts that we've done and the deer themselves, everything is just kind of uh maturing, and so you know it'll be it'll be, it'll be right for the for the experience. When we finally get some time to spend out there, can you give us a really quick and then we're running that time here, but can you use a quick rundown of what you guys did this year to try to improve the habitat there. Yeah, so it is. It was um a twenty seven acre field in the middle of the property and it kind of has a big U shaped chunk of woods that goes all the way around it. Um. All of the woods, aside from some pine trees, all of the woods are late stage secondary girl, so a lot of maples, a lot of poplars, a lot of things that are UM. Twelve of the eight inches around with this big field in the middle of that was that did go back into um rogue saw it if you will, But a farmer came in three years ago and turned it into road crops beans and corn, and so um I leased the hunting rights three years ago. This year I leased the full land rights and the hunting rights. So I took that twenty seven acre field, planted like fifteen acres of different species of warm season grasses, switch grasses, different um cultures and and varieties, and then planted uh some food uh for the dearest that they would have a late winter food source and um and something that could hopefully keep them from starving to death throughout January, recovery March. And then we actually went into the forest where some of these you know, just the trees were kind of competing against each other, just choking each other out and keeping everything just a really small diameter. And really, uh, we just did some small cuts knock the trees down. Um, not so much a hinge cutting, but we did some hinge cutting, but more we just dropped everything to the ground, broke it up, and dragged it away so the fun I could get in there to create little pockets of true um succession, right, get get things like raspberries growing in there, and get things um smaller, younger trees growing in there and create these little thickets throughout these kind of monoculture or kind of um, you know, lifeless woods if you will. And and so that's that. That was this year. That was basically like Phase one. Nice. Yes, I think, um, did you guys do like a short video or maybe Bend did a short video about some of the stuff you guys are doing? And I think with Eric longs with you guys too, is that right? Yep? Yep? Eric Long from Drumming Long Wildlife Management. It's a friend of a friend of Bends and of course a friend of mine now and and so he's been coming out from Ohio and we've been doing the work as a trio. And it was really funny because last year I had a bunch of bucks on the property, uh, two really nice six year old and several up and comers, and we did all this work this year and they are basically all gone. I don't know. It was just kind of funny because we're all giggling about it and I don't it doesn't consume me at all. I know, I surmise what's going on. You know, there's just a little lag or maybe a bunch of them got shot. I don't know, but um, I actually just went out there yesterday and did some scouting around and found some really fantastic big buck signs, So I know there's some there's a couple of boys that are hanging out there that I don't know of yet, but but yeah, it was just funny how we did all this work, most work we've ever done, and it is the least amount of box I've ever seen. But I know there's there's some lag there, and I know as we create it, you know, they'll really start to flourish there. Yeah, that that is a really cool thing, Like you mentioned um a little earlier, being able to improve the habitat and give back to a place like that and then see the impact it makes. See the deer using that cover and using that food and that that's pretty cool. It's very cool to see. And you know it's cool. I told Eric, I said, man, I've been on this property for three years now. I've never seen a snake ever. I've never seen a turtle cross in the field, seen very few frogs, never seen a snake. I said, I want to see these things when I'm coming out to spend time here at a hunt, and so I sent him several videos this year. I saw several snakes this year, um, and I would I would send him some videos of them in my hand or whatever. And then, um, I never really had seen any rough grouse out there before, And now when I go out there, almost every time I'm flushing four or five rough grouse in the woods or on the or on the field edge. And and yeah, it's just I'm just starting to see some different species of birds utilizing some of the grains that I planted for the deer. And so it's cool. It's gonna be really cool to see the thing kind of perpetuate away from a sterile farm field to actually having grasses um and and food being available in them. So yeah, that's awesome, very cool to see. Well, that's that's where it's got to start, one step at a time. Well, we've used up a lot of your time, Donnie, Um, so I guess we should probably wrap it up. But Dan, do you have any final thoughts or anything you want to wrap things up with on your end? No, man, Hey, thanks for coming on. I appreciate the conversation. It's always nice talking to someone who who loves adventure. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate you guys, I really do. I really appreciate taking the time to reach out to me and and UH and have the conversation and and U and I appreciate the openness. I know I have some different views or extreme views of how we're doing things, so I appreciate the openness and the candidness. Yeah. Yeah, of course we I think we see things very similarly. So it's nice to have someone to speak to about some of these things that kind of you know, gets gets some of the interesting things made from where we're coming from too. But I guess that said, Donny, is there anything that you want to end on any final thoughts on any of these things we've we've been chatting about that you want to leave with our with our listeners to kind of wrap things up. No, I just appreciate I'm taking the time to listen to it, and and if they have any questions, reach out to me, and and I'm very much looking forward to releasing our next film. It's going to be here shortly. And Uh, I think people really really dig it, so definitely keep an eye out for it. Yeah, So, where can people go right now to pick up a copy of your past films or learn more Donny Vincent dot com or search Donny Vincon on Facebook, Instagram, things like that perfect. We'll make sure to link to all that and um and I definitely recommend if anyone listening right now if you haven't seen any of his work, The Rivers Divide, Terra Nova, who we are, any of that kind of stuff, you really need to go check it out. Donnie, You're doing great work, and uh and keep it up. Appreciate it, guys, thank you so much, thank you, and that will do it for us today. But before we go, a couple of quick things. First, if you haven't yet left a rating or review of this podcast on iTunes, if you could just take a minute to do that, it would be hugely, hugely helpful. You just go over to iTunes, you choose how many stars you'd rate us, leave a couple honest thoughts on what you think, and I take a look at those and I really take that stuff to heart. So thank you in advance for letting us know what you think. Secondly, I want to throw back to something that Donnie mentioned earlier in our interview and encourage you all to pick up a copy of the Sand County Almanac. This is just a tremendous book. It's one of really the cornerstones of of what we do as hunters and conservationists, and I think it's one that all of us hunters should be reading. So check out the Sand County Almanac. And finally, we need to thank our partners who helped keep this show on the air. So thank you too, Sick Gear, Redneck Blinds, Hunter a Maps, Yetie Coolers, Ozonics, Carbon Express, Maven Optics, and the White Tailed Institute of North America. And of course thank you all for listening today. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Donnie, and I hope you'll stay wired to hunt

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