00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. This episode number one fifteen taying the show. I'm joined by Joe Miles, hardcore white to hunter from South Carolina who's consistently found a way to kill big mature bucks from the Southeast all the way up to the Midwest, and we're exploring exactly how he's been able to do that. All right, Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by Sick of Gear. And I just mentioned we've got Joe Miles on the show with me to day, and we're going to be discussing exactly how he's had such great success across the country, whether that be in South Carolina, Illinois, or Kansas or anywhere else. And you might be familiar with Joe as he's been featured on the Matthews Dominant Box TV show in the past and is currently a member of the Team two hundred show along with past podcast guest Adam Hayes. And I'll let Joe share a little more about himself in a minute, but In short, he's just someone who has had incredible success in a lot of different areas chasing big, mature bucks, and my goal today is to figure out exactly how he's managed to do it. You know, what are the keys to success for a guy who's killed well over a hundred deer, four of them grossing over a hundred seventy You know, That's what we're going to try and figure out today over the next hour or two. But briefly, before we get to that, before we get Joe on the line, we need to thank our partners at sick Gear who make this podcast possible and take a minute to share with you our sikest story of the day, and today's story comes from Sick Gears Corey Piersall. Corey kin white tails late in life and at first he thought, compared to chasing big game on the ground on Montana, white till hunting from a tree stand would be pretty boring. That is until he tried it, and so one on a hunt in Illinois, Hartley lodge Um and Matt their head guide there. You know, we had a blast, put me in some great locations and just opened my eyes to the environment, the world of sitting in a tree stand. Every movement makes your heart beat faster. Every sound that you hear, whether it's a squirrel, whether it's a turkey kyote coming in, whatever it is, it just makes you excited. Whereas on the ground spotting stalk you don't have that very I mean you have it, you run into it, but not nearly as often as you do when you're sitting in a tree stand and you see everything. I mean, you have three sixty degrees at your fingertips, and so it goes from dead static to just like heartbeat racing, just like that. Uh, and that that absolutely hooked me. Well, Corey, you are not the only one the electric excitement of watching a hunt unfultimate stand. That's something pretty special. And I gotta say I'm pretty darn excited for the first opportunity this fault to experience that it's coming fast and I can't wait. But with all that said, if you'd like to learn more about Sick of Gear or want to create your own sick of story someday, you can visit sitka gear dot com. And now let's get back to the show and welcome Joe Miles to the podcast. All Right with Us Now on the show is Joe Miles. Welcome to show. Joe. Hey, Mark, how you doing today. I'm doing pretty good, although I just kind of realized that we are in a super muggy environment here in Michigan, and I did not set my a c up, so I'm cooking right now. I don't know you, but it's it's warm and muggy over here. Well, South Carolina right now is ninety seven degrees and about nine percent humidity. So I will trade places with you whenever you were ready, all right, I guess I can't complain. That's brutal. It is terrible. When I wanted to shoot my bow this afternoon, and I'm gonna have to wait until about eight o'clock. I think I'm gon shoot in the dark tonight. Yeah, that's that's the worst We've We've had horrible humidity to um. So I've been I've been trying to exercise leading up to my elk hunt in this September, so I woke up a little early when I went running early in the rain so I didn't have to be too uncomfortable, and shot my bow in the rain early this morning, just so I didn't have to deal with humidity. But it's tough to avoid that this kind of this time of year, man it is. I'm glad there's only about three months of it, especially in South Carolina. I am, I'm ready to get out of here. I just got back from a stone sheep on a British Columbia and that was a really good break. Man. We we had fifty five sixty degree one and it's got up to in the seventies during the day. And man, that was that was a breath of fresh air. Oh I bet I love that kind of weather. That sounds perfect. So how did how did that hung go? It went great? Man, I got a good ram. Um. It took us four days to get into where we were going. And um, we actually spotted the ram the day before. He was about three and a half miles away roughly. Um, so we actually had to pack our camp up, brought back up on horses, go a full day over to get to where he was, and set up camp. Next morning, we hiked up to where he was. It took us a while, but we ended up finding that exact band of rams and shot the biggest one out of him out of that band on opening day, so could not be happier. Wow, that's exactly how you want to happen, and that never happens for me, Mark, I'm always the absolute last day, last second of the hunt. But it was it was my turn to get one on opening day. Every once in a while, it happens. That's I lived for those every once in a while moments. I guess that's for sure. So yeah, so can you can you share with us exactly what it is that you do that allows you to go on these kinds of hunts and chase white tails as much as I know you do, and maybe sharees a little bit more of your background too about how you got to this point. Yeah. Absolutely, I um obviously grew up in South Carolina. UM played a lot of baseball, and I actually went to college on a baseball scholarship and tore my shoulder up UM and wasn't able to keep playing. But my baseball was a real passion. But but probably my my biggest passion, like a lot of young guys, was hunting. You know. I grew up hunting with my dad in the swamps of South Carolina, and uh that that really was was my true passion. I started bow hunting when I was about fourteen, and and you know, we've got a lot of wild hogs down here in a ton of white tail, no real big ones, but but but but lots of them. So UM got a lot of interaction with deer when I was really young. My dad, you know, he kind of showed me the roads when when when I was little, and then just kind of turned me loose and said, go make your own mistakes and see if you can figure out these uh, these awesome creatures. And you know, I worked hard at it for years, and then you know, went off to college and and let the baseball thing kind of fizzle out, and and then I actually started guiding. I started guiding um waterfowl hunting in Mississippi and Arkansas, and I started, believe it or not, guiding some elk and mule deer hunts in in eastern Oregon. I went out there on a hunt um out of college, and the outfitter asked me if I would stay and and learn how to call elk and and help with some of his customers. So I started doing that, and then he yeah, and then he he introduced me to um Safari Club International, you know, an organization being from South Carolina, and from a pretty rural area, I didn't know, you know, much about Safari Club and anything you know of of that nature. And and he ended up that that guy that owned that ranch took me to a Safari Club convention and I was introduced to that world, you know it. You know, knew obviously all about Africa and dreamed about going over there. And m So I started a hunt brokerage business. I saw you know, several companies out there that were basically travel agents for four hunters. You know, they would take a client that was interested in going to Argentina on a dove hunt or Africa on a safari and and match them up, you know, with a really good, proven outfitter. So I spent a lot of time you know, traveling in the beginning and um lining up to different outfits and and that sort of thing. And and that's kind of how I got started in the business. And you know, it's it's it's grown quite quite a bit since since we started in in literally in in two thousand, so we've been doing it for sixteen years. Wow. And so that that seems to allow you a lot of flexibility to go on some of these hunts and and kind of see some of these pretty neat places. Huh, it does you know. I worked in Africa when I when I really got going. I worked in there during the hunting season for about six years and ended up getting a professional hunters license, and that, you know, again was was the plan. I was going to book these hunts and then actually be the guide. And then you know, Mark, you have I don't know if you have kids or not, but we had a you know, I got married and had a son come along and and I kind of just got out of the guiding all together Africa and domestically and just really focused on the brokerage of these hunts, and um, it just grew and grew. And I think you know when when you when you work at something for a long long time, you know, it gets a little better and a little better and and and our business has definitely definitely done that. We still got a long way to go, but it is, you know, becoming more and more successful and it is able to you know, afford me the opportunity to go on some hunts. And I really thought I'd never we'll be able to do Yeah, that's awesome. Now with all the work you're doing with that sounds like you're I mean, you're still really involved with the white tail game too. Can you tell us a little bit about you know, like the kind of success you're having on on Big white Tails. It seems like you you're still putting a lot of time and energy into that too. Yeah. You know, I'm on the Team two hundred show. Adam Hayes and I have that show together. And you know, I started out a real good buddy of mine, Mark Bank, that owns the real estate company in Illinois. He got me hooked up with Matthews SMA Bucks when they first started, and so I started working with that show and then started working um when when Tom Brandon started the white Tail Slam. Uh, you know, went in and did did a couple of seasons with that, and then did the the show with Adam the Team two hundred, and you know, growing up in the South, whitetail has truly always been my personal passion and especially bow hunting. And and as I alluded to earlier, we've got a ton of deer, but um, you know, we don't get the bone structure, the aunt where growth that they do in the Midwest, and and and so that you know, obviously, that's just kind of where I gravitated to and where a lot of people gravitate to to really chase these giant deer around. Yeah, it's it's hard not to to be tempted to go chase those Midwest bucks because there's there's something special about that part of the country. I can't deny that, um. But it's interesting, you know, with you being from South Carolina hunting the southeast. We get so many of our listeners and readers and everything they come from the areas like that parts of the country. But so much of the hunting media today is all focused on the Midwest. And we talked about you know, Iowa and Illinois and Ohio and all that, but really do we get guys on here who have experienced hunting down in the southeast part of the country. So I want to talk a little bit about that. I mean, what makes that part of the country uniquely challenging or different than maybe what people are used to up in Illinois or Michigan or Iowa or whatever it might be. Yeah, and that's a really good question. A lot of people aren't aware, you know, especially of South Carolina. Like for example, yesterday our rifle season came in. UM. You can rifle hunt, you can there is no limit on bucks. You can shoot as many, but you can shoot twenty a day. UM. And our season goes from August fifteen to January one. There's no limit on bucks. They do limit the number of those you can take. UM. You have to actually get those tags. Um. Also, UM, kind of a Southern tradition is the dog hunting and they actually down into parts of the low country in South Carolina, they still actually run deer with dogs, which is a pretty controversial thing, but they've done it for a long long time. And and that's still part of our culture and and and part of of you know, some of the hunting tradition in South Carolina. So as you can imagine the pressure that our deer under, especially bucks and and older bucks, it's it's insane. And I would argue there's more pressure on deer in the state of South Carolina than any other state out there. Again, we have a rifle season that comes in August fifteen, that runs to January one, and you can hunt deer with dogs. UM. You can obviously bait in the state of South Carolina. And there are a ton of people here that hunt. So it's the pressure is unbelievable. And to kill a four and a half of five and a half year old buck with archery equipment in South Carolina is quite a feat that that is a tough thing to do and and truly, um, you know, you get maybe one two opportunities a year because we have so many deer that do make it to that age class that are just a hundred percent nocturnal, and and you may get one crack out of the year. And if you don't, if you don't make it happen, then you know it's just not gonna happen. So tell me this, Joe, what if what if you couldn't travel to the Midwest this year, you only were allowed to hunt your home state? What would be how would you kill them mature buck in South Carolina this year? Right? So, how I would do it is I would use a lot of the same tactics that I use in the Midwest. I'm obviously a big trail camera guy. To do an inventory on a piece of property. UM, I personally don't go now into the swamps into these big plantations that are hunting a lot. I will go around the county, suburb areas and get a acre acre fifty acre wood lot. It was maybe a development that fell through. And I'll seek out those places that gets zero hunting pressure because there may be an ordinance where you can't shoot a rifle in there. Um, nobody has ever thought about it. It's overlooked. And then I'll set my trail cameras up in there. And and every now and again you'll find a pretty smoke or buck for South Carolina in a place like that, or at least a buck you can get a crack at. Yeah. Pressure, right, yeah, that's it man, especially in South Carolina, that no pressure. And and really the overlooked areas and and you know developments that that are kind of on rivers or or right outside the city limits, you know, those things are are gold mines because you know, you find out who the developer is. You know, they may want a little bit for a lease, or they may just give you permission to go in there and look after the place. So that those are those are a gold mine when you can find them. So that that's what I will be doing some this year and and and that is what I have have have done in the past. And and so once I you know, get that place locked in. Um, I'll get my el cameras in there and kind of do an inventory of what we got and then then start playing the game. Now, you know what I've seen in Michigan and Michigan we've got a lot more hunting pressure than say Iowa. You know, these deer here in Michigan are They're very different than those deer in Iowa. There, much more spooky, they're much less apt to fall for something like calls or decoys or aggressive tactics like that. Are you finding similar things with those deer down in South Carolina or is there anything else that actually makes their behavior different than some of these other well known states. Well, again, our book ratio is so screwed up. We have in some areas every one buck, so calling does not work really well in South Carolina. It hadn't for me. Um, you know it can you know, you can get a bucks at pension with a grunt. But like you say, the big addressive stuff, there's just there's no competition for those, you know, so they're not that they're just not really gonna come to horns. Um. You know, if you see a buck out cruising and you run at him, Yeah, he'll he'll come over to you. But but I'm with you. The big aggressive calling, Um, that's not a tactic I use in South Carolina. Um. I am all about the ambush and figuring out what that deer is doing. And then you know, strategically going in on certain days with certain winds that I know he's comfortable moving on and and and killing him that way, as opposed to going into somewhere like that and and doing a whole bunch of aggressive, rattling calling. You know, stuff that I may use in the Midwest, I'm definitely not gonna use in South Carolina. Yeah. It's funny. You know, one of the things we hear a lot from people from that part of the country is that they can't relate to the types of terrain and habitat that we're talking about when we're hunting in Ohio or Illinois, Ohiowa. You know, we're talking. Okay, we got a bunch of big agg fields and fingers of timber coming out into it, and it's very clear we're betting areas and we're feeding areas are And last time to hear from folks down in the southern part of the country who say Hey, we hunt these great big pine plantations are big swamps. Like, I can't relate to what you guys are talking about at all. I mean, what kind of habitat are you seeing down that part of the country, Joe, And how do you find deer in that? Because I imagine it's pretty different than the typical agg land that we hunt up here in the Midwest. Yeah it is. You know, South Colina used to be a big farming uh state, and it gets really started farming timber. So you get tons of these big, like you said, pine plantations. Um that that are just acres and acres and acres of of of of pine woods. And and you know, if that's all you've got to hunt, um, you you hunt the opposites of of what you've got. So if you you or that's where you're gonna find a deer. If you've got endless rows of pine trees and then you've got a clear cut, your deer gonna be in that clear cut because that's where the food is. Or if you've got a little you know, you've got a little a little spottle order, you know that that's where you can find them. You know where the where the smallest train feature is the difference is where I tend to find the deer here in South Carolina, you know. And again even even with with like I was talking about earlier, these these abandoned developments or whatever there may be inside there. You know, if it leads out, that's some to a little bit of crops. There are still some some props around Colombia. If you guys still grow some soy beans and some corn. And if you can find those areas, man, those are those are money interesting. Now you talked a little bit earlier about you know, if you were setting up on a property like this, you get your get your trail cameras out and let those start to work too. And imagine you use that in conjunction with finding these habitat areas. But how do you look at trail cameras and how do you use them? Lots of guys have different ways of using them. Some people are super aggressive, some people just take inventory with them. Whether it be in South Carolina or in the Midwest. What's your usual trail camera strategy. My first thing is to do an inventory. Um and and here in South Carolina, I'll speak to that. To begin with UM or really any any state where you can put out mineral or food sites or you know, bait sites, whatever you want to call him. Um, I like to do an inventory there, and even if it's a nighttime picture and I find a big buck. I mean, the first thing is doing inventory on the property because if you if you don't have a big one in there, especially after they shed their velvet, um, you know, the only chance you got to kill one, and a big one is in the rut when you get a trustpassor that comes over, you know, looking for you know, looking for a hot dog. Um. So the first thing is is to do an inventory. And you know, if I've got a real good bed and cover and I get an earlier picture of that deer, um, then I'll start position in my trail cameras a little bit differently because I want to figure out exactly where he's betting. I think that is before the rutt gets going. The number one key to killing a big deer, we will actually be the second key. The first key is having a big deer to hunt. The second key is knowing where he bids. So if you can if you can figure out why where he bid, n of it's done because obviously he's gonna get up out of there and move, and you can figure that out with trail cameras. You know, you you you put those any the likely transition areas that he's gonna use, and you can figure out, based on when he gets up out of that vedin area and where he's going, how you can devise a plan to kill him. You know another thing, that trail camera will tell you that a lot of guys don't look at his wind direction. You know, a lot of times you put the trail camera out, you get a picture of him. Okay, I got a picture of him. That's grade he was moving in daylight, wonderful. But what they what they don't keep tracked of, is what wind direction was that day. You know who he's bedding, You've got a daylight picture of him. You need to have a land log so you can look at that trail camera and say, okay, it was Tuesday thirty on August sixteen. Well you need to know what that wind was doing because that deer was comfortable moving out of that bedding area in that direction with that wind. And when you can put that together, then you know the next time you're gonna have a southeast wind. Um, that he's more than likely gonna be moving that way again because he was comfortable, and you can you can figure out, you know, a week length and where he's traveling that you can maximize that wind and and and you know, stack the deck in your favor. I mean, it's certainly not a guarantee, but that's that's a pretty good way to do it. So when you're when you're trying to figure out that betting area with your cameras, how do you I feel like one of the greatest challenges of that is using set getting those cameras out and being able to check them without spooking that deer and making him not use that betting area anymore or making him, you know, move less during daylight. How do you manage to balance that? Yep? Absolutely. I like to do it in the middle of the day when it's raining, um, you know, and go in that way um or you know, depending on where you have them set up. If it's on an active farm and there's a tractor moving around or trucks in and out of there every day, you know, then I just copy what the farmers are doing and I go in when they go in. I go out when they go out, because they're you know, they're used to that. In South Carolina, it's pretty easy for us to find a bedding area because it is the thickest, nastiest, unpenetrable place that you can find and guarantee that's the bedding area that the deer are gonna be living in there. And you've got trails coming out of there. You can see the big tracks and you don't have to actually have to penetrate the beding area. We just want to know that there's a big one living in there. Um And and you know, I think even in the Midwest, you know, like you said, it's you know, a lot of big agg area and then some timber drawls. Well, you mean you can look at a map and see, all right, this is a thick timber drawl, you know, and then there's agg laying all around here. This has got to be a betting area. And you can set your camera cameras up on the fringe and and then determine that he's betting in there. And then I think, you know, as you get a better moon, as you get closer to the pre rut, the rut, the deer more likely to get up, you know, once they've got the velvet off their head and move a little bit more in daylight. Yeah, So what does that mean then that you hold off on hunting some of those spots until a little bit later than the year, or are you going in early season hunting in some of these areas. As soon as I get a picture of a deer now if I can hunt him in velvet obviously, or when they're still pattern on beans and and and all that sort of stuff, you know, you gotta crack then. But I'm really not touching on that. What once they're out of velvet. If I get a daylight picture of a deer, once he's out of velvet, and and he's gonna win, that I can hunt, I'm hunting. I won't wait. Um, if if I have the right moon, I'm a big proponent of the moon. And if I've got a deer that I've got a daylight picture of, he's out of it, all of it, He's moved in daylight, and I get that same win. And I've got a red moon, I don't care if it's in in the second week of September or you know, in in the October. Law I'm gonna hunt him then, because he's he's shown that he's killable. So that kind of situation, if you've got a deer like that, are you the and let's say hypothetically, this is mid October or earlier. You know, we're not getting to the rut yet. Are you typically gonna try to hunt as close as you can to the betting area or do you like to stay off hunt the food sources and play it safe at that time of year. It all depends on the deer numbers, um. You know, if you've got a lot of deer that are coming out of this bedding area, you've got to be cheerful there. So that's not a simple question to answer because every situation, every deer will be different. You know, is he coming out somewhere on loan? Um? If he is, then boy, I've got a I got a real good chance. You know. If I'm set up on the field in October hoping he's gonna get there before dark, um, you know, and I've got twenty other deer in the field, and i gotta climb down if he doesn't show up and I blow the plot up or whatever it may be. So every every deer, every situation is different. And man, I think that's one of the reasons they're so fun to hunt, is that you know, every one of them seen seems to be different, and you you really, man, you gotta lood and learn, You gotta try stuff and and and and just remember and and try and use common sense and and look at every deer differently. I don't think there's one set way to do it, because again, every deer is different, and and uh, every every situation, every farm has got different features that will allow you to new different things. Yeah, agree to your point. That's probably one of the things that makes this so so addicting, so much fun is that it's it's always different. You always have to be learning. Every year is unique. It's a It's one of the greatest challenges in the world as far as I'm concerned, trying to figure out these different deer. Every year. It's new and you you start from zero and figure it out. Yeah, that's that's right. I mean the beauty is when you have figured it out on a farm and another big deer shows up in that same area, you're so far ahead of the game. And a lot of times that happens. You know, you find an area that you can you can get trail camers in to find a big deer. He likes it. He feels comfortable there. There's something about that spot he liked. You kill that deer a lot of times, another big one the next year, we'll move in there because it's the same stuff that that butt light, and it's set up for him. Um, you know, like like the we you know, the little twenty nine acre track in Illinois. Three years in a row I killed great big bucks off of it, and it was it's just twenty nine acres, but it was something that was very very little pressure in there. It was a big place that fed out to a CRP I mean, excuse me, fed out to a big um agg area. And those big deer felt real safe in there. And I would only go in there at the absolute perfect time. And three years in a row, I'll killed the one sixty four and three back to back to back, and and and it just that area was set up perfect to hold a big deer. Now, you know places in Kansas or or Ohio than I may hunt. You know, I may not be able to keep the property um and may change every year. The farmer may cut timber on it. He may the crops may be rotated again. There's a million things that that can happen. When when it's the same and you have the the you know, a big deer that you killed in there, and the same thing happens the next year, you already know you're you're so far ahead of the curve that that you ought to be slapped if you don't kill him, right and definitely it's definitely a better place is and then starting brand new, that's for sure. So tell us a little more about this, this small property, because there's so many people that hunt small properties. You know, most people aren't lucky to have hundreds and hundreds of acres and prime states. A lot of guys have got twenty acres or forty acres or ten acres behind their parents house or whatever it might be. I guess, I guess first, I'm curious, what do you think makes a good small property, because I think that's at least if you're in the process of trying to find a new spot and you only have small properties to pick from, finding the right small property can make a big difference. So I think, I think without a doubt, and they're not all created equals um. There's no question that there are two things that, in my opinion, make, or really really three things that make a small property uh deadly dynamite, whatever you want to call it. The first thing is thick, thick, thick cover. Um. You know, especially if you're after a big deer, that's the first thing to you have to go in there and hinge cut or it can get permission to do that, or it just happens to be CRP or whatever it is. Thick cover is the number one thing I look for on a small property to hunt. The second thing is I stay out of there, no pressure. I don't want anybody to know about it, don't want my friends to know about it, don't want anybody to go in there ever, unless it's me and it's for a real specific person. See, I think a lot of a lot of guys. Yeah, they get a small farm, and you know it's in their nature. They want to go hunt, They want to go out there, they want to go walk around on it. They want to walk in there and scout and see if there are any new rubs. Man four and a a half five and a half year old buck is found this little thirty acre sanctuary and thinks nobody's gonna be in there bothering him. If you go in there, it's over. He is long gone. But but but it's it's it's almost like a little trap, you know, that that little thing. If you can convince him to get in there and that or that's a place that he likes to go and feels comfortable, then he's really really, really killable. You just have to wait until the conditions are perfect and and you know, that's the only time that you can kill him, like like on the twenty night Acre track in Illinois, those three years that I killed those deer. The first one I killed on the second day I was in there. The second year, I killed on the first day, and the third year I killed on the second day. And I had to wait. I had to wait, you know, I hunted a day and then stayed out of there, and you know, I'm away from my family and everything else. I had to wait four days before I could get back in there for a certain win. Um, so it takes big time discipline. But the flip side of that coin is that most everybody can afford to get a small place. You know, you don't have to have thousands and thousands of dollars to to to get these huge, huge releases. You can if you work hard, you stay will cost you much and you may may get just permission to hunt in there. Um. So that that's the given the take. It can be a deadly trap and make it really easy to kill a big deer, but you gotta be real smart about it, and you gotta work really hard to find it. Yeah. Is this twenty nine acres? Do you own that, Joe? Or is that lease? I can't remember, I do not. Um, that guy was talking about earlier. Mark Beck is the one that found that lease and he let me hunt it for for three years, and now he is actually gonna take a turn and hunt it some um, which I think is absolutely fair. Um. You know, I leased it. I want to say I could be wrong here, but I think it was seven and fifty bucks a year is what it calls to lease it. Um. And that was the that was the insurance and the and the payment for it. So I mean, you know, that's you know, it is a good bit of money, but it's not near what some of these big tracks calls, right. I mean, if you pass on buying the new TV or don't go out to eat so much. You can say about that money in a year and put it towards something like that. For I think most people can can do something like that. But takes, like you said, hard work and choices, right, Yeah, that that's it. And and in in seven fift year, that's If that's too much, you're just gonna have to work even harder and find one that's a hundred dollars or two hundred dollars or that you can just get permission, you know, to get into. Those are few and far, but between what you can find them, I mean, they are out there. You've got a network, and you've gotta get with these people and and um, you know, make it happen. You just can't say, Man, I just don't have anywhere to hunt. If you really are passionate about killing a big deer, if you man, it's just like anything else. The harder you work at it, the more successful you're gonna be. Yeah. I read somewhere that you're pretty serious, or maybe at least you were in the past. Um, and this article I've read pretty serious about how you go about trying to get permission on the properties that you that you really want to hunt. Can you talk to us a little bit about how you have gone about, you know, finding places to hunt and getting that permission or you know, access via lease or whatever might be. Yeah, you know, I think the whole the whole thing is to be genuine, um, you know, and and really friend these people. UM. I think that's the that that's been the key to my success in finding properties. Is you know, like Mark, for instance, you know back in Illinois. UM. You know, I met him through a mutual guy. He happens to be in the real estate business. UM. He had access to a lot of farms. He and I literally became buddies because we lived how many states apart. I'm in South Carolina, he's in Illinois, UM. And and you know, our relationship grew as buddies even though it was far away. He would come down and our families would go to the beach together. He'd stay with me during the summer. I would go out and hunt with him, and you know, our wives became friends. And it's a genuine relationship. The worst thing you can do is go in and try and use somebody to get a get a spot just to hunt. You know, you you don't talk with him in the in the off season, you don't stay in touch. Um, you know that that's not gonna you know, they're they're gonna turn over to somebody else or they're gonna see right through that. So I think being being genuine is the is the main thing. I mean, let them know what you're after. But then you know, if they're in in in the Nascar, man, get them some NASCAR tickets. If they're you know, if you live in the South and they like seafood, send them some shrump. You know, really make an effort to be friends with them, and that's gonna go a long way, um getting in acquiring you know, the different type properties. And then you know, also real estate agents. Man. You know, if if I'm in South Carolina and I wanted somewhere to start, I'd do some research on where where big deer were killed in Illinois, which counties. I'd call some relators that maybe have some farms and stuff for sale and ask them, you know, if if there are any small farms or rural areas that allow hunting or or dilapidated developments. You know, and I keep going back to that over and over again, but man, that that's a that's a great spot, you know, abandoned golf courses. Man, you find something like that, that that that that's still got some grass growing there, Man, that that can be something too. Um, you just gotta think outside the box from what every other guy is doing. Yeah, that's one of the one of the topics that we get so many questions about. Is. I think access is is definitely just one of those issues that so many people deal with. It's tough to find somewhere hunt if you're not you know, boring into a family that has a bunch of land. Um, that's it's a big challenge. Do you have any typical way you go about actually going through the process of actually asking I get this question a lot, you know, what do you actually say? And I've got kind of you know, I do a lot of door knocking here in Michigan and other Midwest states, and I kind of have a I don't know, just a general routine. Now. I go through in each place to kind of, you know, introduce myself and chit chat and you know, explain what I'm trying to do. But I'm always curious to hear how other people go about it. How do you do that? Yeah? For for me. You know, funny um being in South Carolina. If let's let's say that I'm going to um, Illinois for the first time to try and find a spot to hunt. You know, that's what I want to do. Man, being in South Carolina, the Illinois folks looking at us as a whole, as being backwoods and you know, rednecks or whatever you want to say, um, And I would get him. I would get in my truck and drive out there in the summer and go to different little diners where the farmers hang out, and I would start talking to him. I say, hey, man, I have from South Carolina, um, looking for a place to hunt out here. You guys got any leaves they find that? In my case, they have found it really funny that I've come all the way from South Carolina to find a place to shoot a stupid deer and they are so apt, so apt to help me. I'm not a local guy that you know. The families may have had huge or this person doesn't like this person. Hey, this guy from South Carolina. You know he's he's serious. He's come all the way out of here. I want to help the guy out, So I don't say I played a pull fruitiful redneck. But but but I sure let it be known that I'm in South Carolina and I've come a long way and I sure could use some help. Um and and that that tact it really works. I believe it. It is amazing how just one of the things that I found helps the most is, you know, even if you know I go up to a door and I knock on that door and this person says no for whatever reason, to your point, just continuing a conversation and asking for their help. You know, you happen to know anyone else I should talk to you. It's amazing how many times that ends up being the way you find something that actually gets you access. It's just talking to people and asking for help and what it may not be on their property, but lots of times they can point you in the right direction, share with you a friend of a friend of a friend, and who knows what they'll take you? Absolutely, I mean you just you, you just can't take no. You gotta keep keep pursuing it and and and come up with was something that work. So if it works with a couple of guys, you know, keep trying the same thing. I mean that that you. I mean, the bottom line is you gotta find somewhere to hunt, so you gotta keep working at it. That's the truth. That's the truth. Now back to the small property thing you talked about. A big key to how you hunt those and how you have success on a small property like that is waiting for the right conditions. Can you elaborate in more detail on exactly what you're paying attention to? I know you mentioned moon. Would love to hear more about specifically what you're paying attention to the Moon and than any other conditions, whether time of year when I'd love to hear about the details and all that. Yep, I'll go through, um, you know, some some actual kills. Um. You know there there are a lot of theories and and ideas, but but I guess it's it's sorry with you. I'll just related to those three bucks on that little small property that person goes through exactly exactly how I killed them. Yeah. First of all, um, the first here we called big lefty. Um it's a non tipical on his left side, and he was a uh you know, mainframe five point on his right side. But anyway, UM got trail camera pictures in him early after he was out of velvet and a couple of them in daylight. And this was in September October because it was the beginning of football season, because Mark texts me the pictures and I was at a football game, so I know it was the beginning of September October when he um when he sent me the pictures, so we knew there was a big deer in there. He was out of velvet, and he was not afraid to show himself in daylight, so I knew. I knew all that stuff. Then he started, you know, becoming a little more nocturnal. The pictures we got were a little more nocturnal, a little more nocturnal, and then all of a sudden, he shows up again mid October. He shows up again daylight, and it's on a red moon, one of our overhead moons that the moon Guide shows. And I saw the wind that he was on because I had a win log for that property. Every day I would log the win for for that part of Illinois around that around that farm. UM. So here I know two things. I know that he is cooperating with the moon Guide, and I know that he's not afraid to move on this wind. It just so happened that I already had a stand hung perfect before that win. I needed a north east wind. He was really comfortable moving on that, and I needed a red moon. So I waited until the next red moon cycle was coming around, and I got into my truck and I drove Illinois. Now, granted, nobody has been into this property at all other than to prove these camera cards, and that was done during rain. Or it happens to be a hiking trail that comes through this property that some people use, and the deer are a little more customed accustomed to people going in and out of there, so that's even an added bonus of this property. So pulled the card that that was the only time anybody had been in there. There's been no shooting, lanes cut, nothing, The stands had been hung the year before, so there had been nothing in there. So I went in there as soon as we got a northeast wind and a red moon, and I went in and I took actual replacement straps with me for that afternoon and replaced the straps on the climbing uh sticks and the stands as I climbed up, and I had plenty of shooting lanes. And the day I killed him was the exact day that he had shown that he likes to move, and nobody had been I hadn't hunted in there, nobody had hunted in there, And it just worked out absolutely perfect, going with what he the cards that he was showing. He showed that he'd moved in daylight on the north east wind, and he showed that he moved on a red moon, and I just once I learned that when that cycle repeated itself, I moved back in there. It also helped that it was towards the end of October, which they're a little more anty than to get on their feet anyway. UM, So that that's what I look for. I mean, you can I don't know a tremendous amount about the barometer and the barometric pressure and all that stuff. I know, Mark Durry is a big proponent of that. I do know that they tend to move, or my experience, and this is completely antecidotal, My experience has been on a high pressure afternoon. Um, the bigger deer tend to get on their feet. I don't I don't think I've ever killed a really big mature buck, you know, in an afternoon on a low pressure day. It's always been on a high pressure day. And it seems like I see more deer on high pressure days and I do on really low pressure days. Yeah, it seems to be a consistent thing that we hear from so many people to those high pressure days rising and high high high barometer. That's that's pretty money. Can you can you elaborate on the red moon? We talked with Adam Hayes about this last fall a little bit, um. But you know, we get so many questions still to this day, what exactly whether you've got the moon guide or you're looking at this and you just know when the moon rise or said or overhead underfoot is. Can you just explain again what this is, how it works, and why you pay attention to it. Yeah, I mean I know, man, I I listened to your podcast and I'll hop up on a sup box for just just a second. And I've heard the the q q d M A biologists um talk about their study showing the moon doesn't have an effect on deer and weather. It doesn't have an effect on deer. I'm gonna I'm gonna argue that, man Auburn. You know, I've read studies from Auburn done by UM Louisiana State University, Auburn, University of South Carolina d n R. They radio collar dear, and this is recent, this just happened. And and um, there is roots in their study that the moon absolutely has an effect on on deer movement. Um. You know the radio colors, some of them last three months, some of them last six months. UM, some of them last lot less than that. Um. And and you know, I don't hear there's any effect. I mean, it's just it's natural. The moon is a natural phenomenon that that that happens, That affects tides, you know, it affects a lot of things. And in all of my experience, even when I worked in Africa, I had and an old tracker that would come get us early when that moon was overhead. During the afternoons, he come get us. In those days we killed more than we ever and we saw more on those afternoons. And that that was absolutely He was an old guy that had hunted his whole life in Africa, and and and he figured that out. So I don't you know, I would I would argue that the that the moon definitely has an effect on the white tailed deer movement from a sun scientific point of view, where there are studies that show that it does have an effect, and from an experience in the field. Um, and then you know, I'm going to skip over the weather for a second because I heard that biologists from q d m A say that weather didn't have any effect on deer. Now, Mart, was he talking about any effect on deer throughout the year or only during the root. I'm a little fuzzy there, you know, I honestly don't remember the specifics of the study that he mentioned. But to to his point, one of the things he did say is anecdotally, he and so many other huns have seen the same thing as you and me, and that whether mooning, these things definitely do seem to But there's gonna be something with these studies that for some reason, maybe it is the time of year like you just mentioned, or how they're measuring increased or decreased movement, that just because I think almost all of us have seen some of these things, you know, noticeably correlated with increased day daylight movement, it's hard not to me that some of those things have some type of effect. But uh, it's got to come down to the particulars of how these studies are done and what specifically they're looking to prove or disprove. Maybe that's kind of what I think. Yeah, it could be. I mean I was laughing with Adam the other day. What we all to do is say, all right, we'll take We'll pick two um G M A biologists and Adam and I and we'll get a thousand acres and we'll hunt it with the moon and the right weather, and let them hunt it when the moon is wrong and the weather is horrible, and see who's more successful. We ought to pool, we ought to sit, we ought to suit that challenge up. I don't think anyone. I don't think anyone would want to take those odds. No, I wouldn't either, so um but yeah, anyway, I'm not beating up on on on anybody too much. I'm just I've just seen too much, spent too much time in the woods and just seeing the moon affect dear um. And it really is. It hasn't been my experience at the phase of the man moon or or you know, the fullness or the half moon or whatever that in my experience that has not had a tremendous effect. It is the position of the moon. Um. You know, when you get that moon overhead the right time of year, the right time of day, that that that's the red moon, and and those are the days that that typically a a bigger mature deer and and dear in general are gonna get up on their feet and want to feed. Um. You know that it's a timing thing, but it's the position and the gravitational pool that with that overhead moon and that underfoot moon that that makes them want to get up more often then than other times during the day. Ima, sweet dear creatures of the gray they're they're they're moving in the mornings, they're moving in the evenings. But when you throw in their good weather and you're throw in there and overhead moon, man, it just and that's all you need is one little small bump in your favor and you get it done right. Because because we're talking can about in most cases right you you're looking for when that moontime correlates with the last hour of daylight or so, or the first hour of daylight in the morning, like you said, you know, combining gray light with this increased influence of the moon. That's what might just get them out five minutes early, right that, that's exactly right. And the and the Deer Hunter's Moons Guide has done that. You know, they put that thing together in the nineties and it maps that out. And not only that, if you if you can't hunt that day, you know you you can't absolutely can't hunt that red moon day. You've got to go another day. That Moon Guide will tell you, you know, whether you need to hunt, betting, transition or feed based on the moon's positions. Pull that particular day you can hunt. And again, you're you're gonna stack the deck a little bit in your favor by by looking at that um, you know, because it times the deer when they're gonna be where. And uh, that's a that's an inexpensive tool man, the ninth twenty bucks whatever they are, but my goodness, the amount of money to spend on other trail cameras and leases and roads and everything else. I mean, this can actually that that tool can actually help you determine when that deer is gonna move and you can have the best stuff in the world if if if your timing is all it's going to be for not you know, I mean, it's just not it's yeah, yeah. If there's been anything that I've learned, um, you know, in my kind of evolution as a hunter over the last you know, fifteen twenty years, and especially the last few years now that I've been running the podcast and getting to talk to so many successful hunters, there's nothing more important, almost nothing more important than proper timing, because that's that's directly connected to keeping pressure low, which is maybe the most important thing if you're trying to kill a big, mature deer. So getting that timing right is so crucial, and so I pay, just like it sounds like you too, pay obsessive attention to all these different conditions that might just give me that one percent greater chance of the big boy walking through today being out there during daylight. And if you line up a couple of those along with doing all of your other homework, all of a sudden, you've got a timber cent chance better that you might be able to get a shot on that day. And that those little things make all the difference in the world as far as I'm concerned. No, No, you couldn't have said it any better there, and especially for a guy, you know, like myself and other guys from from the southeast to travel to the Midwest. Man, we are limited on time. If we know that the moon is going to be great the last week in October, you know we we need to plan our vacation for that last week in October. If this is gonna be the first week in November, you know, we needed to consult that moon and help it plan when we're gonna be there. The weather can change and all that. It's hard to predict that that for an advance. But yeah, every little teeny thing you can do to stack gods in your favor, you owe it to yourself for all the work you're doing to do that. Yeah, Now, would you agree that weather still trumps the moon. So if you have a huge warm front pushed through and its seventy degrees on November one, even if it's a red moon day, that's gonna hurt you versus you know, without it, Yes, without a doubt, I would go in this order. I would say pressure is your number one thing. If you've got a highly pressured hunting area. Um, I'd rather have five acres to myself than two thousand acres with twenty other hunters. I mean pressure is number one. Number two is weather without a doubt. Um, you know, like we touched on high pressure cold fronts, you know, it being cold in general. Um, and and then and then the moon would be third. Those are the three, you know, in that order of in my opinion, the importance of, you know of of deer hunting a particular place. All right, So real quick, before we move on to our next question for Joe, we need to pause briefly for work from our sponsors of this podcast episode, deer lab dot com and deer Labs, of trail camera photo management and analysis tool that allows you to upload your trail camera photos online to deer Lab and then use it to better analyze and pattern your local deer. And this year I've been using deer Lab myself already to pattern the number one Michigan buck I'm after deer I call holy Field. So with deer Lab, once I've uploaded my photos, the tool looks at the date and time for each photo and then automatically pulls in, you know, all the weather factors that were present at that time. Things we've just been talking about, like bare better pressure, moon, temperature, all that kind of stuff. So then when I go back and look at these individual pictures, especially those daylight pictures, I can try and see what conditions were present at that time the might have influenced that movement. Even better, though, deer Lab aggregates this data and helps me see those larger, larger patterns through you know, the reporting and profiling tools. For example, once I got all these photos upload, I took a look at which camera that this buck showed the most of them, and I found that that was my front food plot camera. Next, I looked at the wind report for that camera, and when I did this, I had a really eye opening experience. The report showed me that almost every time holy Field showed up on this plot, including eight different times during daylight, it was with a south or southwest wind, like almost that was the only win direction he was showing up on. And this is a massive realization for me because up to that point, up to this point, really I would never hunt this area with those winds if I hadn't seen this report this information kind of visualize this way, that's what I would have continue to do. I keep hunting the north and northeast winds, and I would have never seen him during daylight. So now that I've seen this trend, I've realized I need to figure out a way how to hunt there on the southerly winds. So now I've got a plan in place for how to do that. I'm gonna move a ground blind him and I think it's gonna work out. But this really massive major lesson learned. It would have never happened without using deer Lab. So if you're interested in trying out deer Lab yourself to better manage and analyze your trail camera photos, We've got a cool deal available for wire to Hunt listeners. If you've is it deer lab dot com slash W two H, you can get an extended thirty day free trial period and the ability to upload a larger number of photos for free photos. In fact, so head over to deer lab dot com slash W to h to get this extended free trial and learn a few new things from your trail camera photos. It's free, it's easy, and honestly it's very eye opening. So with that said, check it out, and now let's get back to our next question for Joe. Very much related to this topic you mentioned earlier. When you're when you're looking at trail camera pictures to pay attention to things like the wind direction. And I think you know, this is something I've been talking about a lot of the past few episodes. It's just the importance of of always asking why. So, like if you get a trail camera picture during daylight or you see Mr Big during daylight, ask why look at all these specific things. Was the barometer high, was at the right moon time? Was it because of a cold front? Was it the wind direction? And figure out what correlated with this sighting so that you can do exactly what you did with that buck. You looked at what the two factors where he did last time he was in daylight, waited for it to happen again. Boom, you went in there. He acted the same way. I think that's that is such a key thing when you're trying to target these older deer. Yeah. Well, and another thing, I mean, that's exactly right, look at the picture and asked why. But but even more something that did. Did the farmer just cut the corn? Did the farmer just um artist is sewing? You know? Did they just cut some timber next door? You know, look at everything that could effect the deer. Um you know, bam, he just showed up. Maybe he just got kicked from somewhere else? Did did did you hear about a buddy going in and walk in his place or something? Every every little thing, did anything? Any intel you can gather is gonna make you more successful? Yeah? So true. Can you tell us about that next buck? You you told us about the first year? What about the second year? What was the specific situation there that you were able to capitalize on the same type stuff um that year. I do not think that we got any um trail camp intel um of that deer other than nocturnal pictures. We didn't get any daylight pictures of him. And I waited until the very end of October to go to Illinois, and I think I killed him on the fourth of November, you know, before the rut got going. And I waited again until I had a northeast wind because I knew it had worked for that other buck, and I waited for that red moon and that deer. I've got all three of these deer on video, by the way. Um that deer was actually betted in the CRP, and I actually saw him stand up at four thirty out of his bed and can I ended up actually snort wheezing him in Um. But uh I I saw him stand up out of his bed at four thirty in the afternoon in six and five and a half year old deer in early November. Um and and it was only a red moon afternoon with a high pressure. It was high pressure that day. Um. It was cool and it was getting colder, a little cold front was coming in and we had a redden moon that afternoon and he got up and a snort. Ways can ride over to me and shot him? Wow. So so these these are both examples. Were you traveling South Carolina Illinois? And for what I've seen, you know you do a little bit more hunting around the Midwest in addition to that spot in Illinois. Two. And there's a lot of people I think that have this type of situation where they they've got their rut vacation week or whatever it might be that they've blocked off, and they're gonna travel across the country or whatever it might be to their spot for the rut and they've got seven days or five days or ten days. Can you share this a little bit about what you've found to be the keys to pulling off that kind of traveling hunt. You know, you've got a short amount of time, relatively new place from home. Yeah, I you know, as a as a bow hunter, and the experience that that that I've gotten. Um, you know, the the rut can be tough for a bow hunter. When they're running and and and you know, you know, they're they're under you one second, they're running past you another They're all over the place. You see a lot of deer and it's exciting. But I haven't killed a lot of big deer in the prime of the rut, I think, big deer wise, the latest I've ever killed a really big deer was like the tenth of November, maybe the eleventh, you know, before the real break loose face start. Most of my success has come from the end of October to the first week in November, that pre rut time. So I look at that as the time to be there. And then if I want to tweak it a little more, then I consult you know, a moon guide and see when that red moon is gonna fall during that time, and then bam, that's what I'll set my schedule to go and and I can do that, you know, I can do that. Get in April, you know, I can look at a at a moon guy Shart in April and and determine when that red moon is gonna be in October, first of November, and I can set my travel time for for them. How do you how do you plan? How do you plan a hunt? You know, I don't know this this this obviously is variable depending on the situation every year. But let's say you've got seven days to go hunt this place, and maybe it's new. Let's say, you know, like we're talking about earlier. Yeah, you showed up, you met some farmer in the middle of summer. They end up giving you permission. You get to walk it really fast, maybe when you're there in July. But now you're back in late October, early November. You got your seven days. If that was you, do you dive right into the core or do you hang on the outside and hang trail cameras and work your way in? Or how do you approach that with you know that five seven day time frame. Well, you know, everybody hunts a little different. Um now, we can cheat a whole lot because we have those text cameras. So if you put those you know, you put those cameras, those Cobert or you know, Reconnix. A lot of people make the the the cameras that will text or email you the pictures, so we we can cheat. If we're out there in July, we meet the farmer, he let's justus hang some cameras. We don't know what's going on and what we need to do. But let's say you didn't have let's say you you know you didn't have that, you didn't have a text camera. Um, the farmer did let you hang some cameras. So you're gonna have to plan your seven days. You look at the moon guide. You're going out there in in into October, first week in November. Those are gonna be your seven days. Obviously I get there, Um, I will pull those cards. I mean, even if I have to go into the area, I've got to know, you know, I've got to know what's in there, and I will I will get those cards. You know, if the farmer and I've really hit them off, and I can get him to go in there on rainy day and pull the cards out, or I got a buddy that can do it, pull the cards and mail them to me, or or you know, just email me the pictures of a good deer um. You know you will again. You want as much intel as you can get. But let's say you can't do that. You can't do any of that. You don't even have trail camp. So a lesson I learned from an old hunter, Miles Keller. As you hunt from the outside in, you know you've got seven days to hunt. Man, don't don't bust right in there. If you don't know exactly where that deer's bedding, you don't know exactly what trails he's using. Man started out on the edges and hunt into him. I made a huge mistake in Canada one year. Um there were two stands hung um between this bed area and food and and and food source. One was kind of an observation stand and one was, you know, kind of the kill stand. And I was debating back and forth what to do, what to do because I didn't have trail cameras, I didn't know where, when, where, how the deer were coming. And I said, you know, you know what, I'm gonna go into the to the kill tree. And I went in there and darned if the deer didn't come through down window me. And it was a big hundred and sixty ins chocolate rack Buck, and I blew it. And I had I set up in that observation stand, I would have seen him do that, and there were This was early so they were still doing the same things every day, and then I could have adjusted that that observation standing, brought it in six yards and I have killed him the next afternoon. Um. But I blew it, um because I didn't hunt the outside in so in simplifying that hunting somewhere where you you don't expect you're gonna kill and you don't expect you're gonna disturb anything, but you can see what's going on and tweak your set up from there. Do you do any actual on the ground scouting, like I mean, other than just observing like you just mentioned. Do you actually go and look for sign or is that something you're not as focused on? I will do that. Um. Again, Every property is different, Every property can take different levels of stress. Um. It depends on the property. You know, if I like to hunt the outside in as much as I can where I can see, um, But then if it's dead, you know, and I've got limited the amount of time, eventually you got to blow that property up. You know, you you you've got to get down into the nitty gritty. Um. But I want to do that delayed as much as I can. And if I don't have that trail cam information, you know, that's obviously key. But again I'm I'm I'm talking from a point that we don't We're saying we don't have trail capra intel um. Then what I would do. I would hunt the outside in. If I see something that that I can move on, then I would obviously move on it. And if that's not working, then yeah, you're gonna have to get down and you're gonna have to do some walking. And in that case, I would do the old hanging hunt technique, you know. I I would get along the wolf and some sticks, and I would get down and I dive into the meat of it. But by golly, I wouldn't be as soon as I found it. I'd set my stand up and hunt right then, and I'd be right back there the next morning. Um. I'd hunt morning afternoon. And if you don't get it done, break it down, move to your next spot, you know, on that hot precious sign, set everything back up and and and get after again. But I think it's important that that people understand that when you do that, when you want to do the hanging hunt, you need to set it out, hunt that afternoon, and then ho a lot of times will leave all my stuff in the tree and go back and hunt it the next morning, because what you don't want to have happened is you go there and hunt, hang it. You don't hunt that afternoon. That deer comes by there smells where you've been, and it's over and you never even knew he was there. So hunted, hunt that afternoon, hunt it the next morning, and then if if it's dead and and and you've got another area you can go and look and hang and hunt again, then move out and do it again, because you're you know, like you said, it's a limited time and you've got to you've gotta you gotta get it done. And if it's not happening that way, you you've got to kind of force it and eventually you're gonna blow it up. You're either gonna kill him or you're gonna blow him out of there, and you know, hopefully you'll learn something right and at least you can see you try. Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's exactly your right. What a specific sign do you look at as like hot that Yes, this is something I would hang, you know, hanging hunt over you know. Are you a guy that really like scrapes or's rubs or what matters? What is the sign that matters to you? Again, I'm ord of a terrain guy. Um, obviously I looked for all that. I think a ton of that sign is done at night. Um. But but if if if, if I'm creeping down the property I don't know anything about, and and all of a sudden, I'm I'm getting to the edge of a big thicket and there's some rubs and scrapes coming out of there that are you know, extremely fresh. Yeah, man, I'll I'll throw up right there and set up the staying hunt that afternoon hunt in the next morning. Um. And I'm more of a train guy. I feel like the in that situation, the closer you can get to the to the thicket where they're coming out of the bedding area, but the better off you're gonna be. Um. And and so I look, I love big scrapes, I love a big robs all that's wonderful. But but I still want to have the terrain right, and I want to have that thicket to be able to hunt, because if those scrapes and rubs are there and there's a giant bedding area, more than likely he's gonna be in there. And a lot of the scraps, you know, they're done at night and without Again, people call it cheating or whatever they want to call it. I call it using the tools that we've got. Trail cameras can eliminate so much of that. So I can't put enough stress on using trail cameras to do your scouting for you or a lot of it for you. Yeah, So let's say you did have cameras in this kind of situation while you're there, how would you you know, late October early November, are you putting these on scrapes? You put them on funnels? Are you moving them every couple of days? How would you go about actually using cameras in that deal? I have I have screwed up there too, moving cameras and and and trying to position them in season when I'm hunting, and and having deer come by and smell them and and run the The Team two hundred show that aired last night was um I think it will air again later this week was of my Kansas kill in this this past November. And you watch this buck come up out of this bottom of the dough and I've been in and checked that covert camera that earlier that day, and he smells it and cranes his neck around and looks at that camera and he about blows out of there, but he's with a hot dough, um, and and and he ended up staying with her and I was able to kill him. But that that's man. I want those cameras in areas I think the deer are gonna be traveling, um. And you know if you if you show up that that's every again. Everything is so different. To to put that into a cookie cutter equation is difficult because I can't say there aren't times that I moved to camera from from a trail or a funnel area on top of a big fresh scrape, because I want to know what deer that was. Maybe you do it at night, but I know there's a booner in there now, and you know, hopefully the camera didn't booger him up, and I'm gonna concentrate on that area a little more so you know I've I've done that. But but theoretically or or practically, Um, you know, if you can put the cameras in there earlier and leave them and not move them around, the deal will get used to them. Um. You know, I try and hide my camera some or hang them a little higher than normal. Um because you know, bigger deer like you well know man when you mess with their bedroom and they can pick it out and they can find those cameras. Um. So yeah, again, every situation is different. But hopefully when you were there in July getting things set up, you put the cameras out and if you can't get the farmer to go in and pull the cards for you on rainy day and you gotta wait till you get there, or you just gotta go in and check them. You gotta know what's there. So you go in as sent free as you possibly can, pull the cards, replace the card with another card, get out of there, do your inventory and then see what you got and then you can you can adjust from there. How often would you check those cameras during the season, Is that like just once the beginning or would you every several days? You know? Again, and I hate to not answer things and emphatically, but but if it just depends on what's going on, if it's if it's if it's dead, and I will check my cameras more often. You know, again, I've got limited time. I can be there. If I've got a giant bood and Crockett boom and Crockett in there that showed up in in one time in daylight in the last two weeks, Buddy, I ain't gonna wait until time is perfect. I'm getting my butt out of there, and I'm gonna go back in there when when, when the time is it's perfect to kill him. Um. And now if I don't kill him, you know it, within a couple of days, then I might check the cameras again, and you know what, I might move them around again, because I've got limited amount of time. You know. With these guys that own these giant farms and Iowa and Illinois and live on them, you know that they can be a little more patient. But for a traveling huner, um, you're gonna have to be a little more aggressive, and you're gonna have to do things a little more untraditional. And so yeah, I mean to say, and that does break the rules, you know, to get in there and and tromp up the place. And move a camera to another area. Um, you know that that that does. But if but if it's dead for you and you're not getting you're not seeing anything, nothing's happening you, you can't just sit there and and and hope. You gotta sometimes make it at Yeah, that's tough. You gotta know when to swing for the fences and when to hold back and wait and and making that decision is definitely one of the toughest in that type of situation, no no question about it. And and and again that that's why I'm so done fun. And you're gonna make a mistake, you know, I mean you can't. You can't beat yourself up. I mean I did that there in in in Canada like that, and you know, I wan't picked off about it for a little bit, but man, I learned. I won't ever do that again. And if I'm never put in that situation again, I know exactly what to do. I learned. I learned the hard way. Um. And so yeah, you get in there and you're propping up and you don't feel anything, and and you blow a big one out of there, Well, you know what you learned, and and you just gotta move on. What do you typically now, on average, let's say you're, you know, walking through property or heading to your tree stand or whatever. You spook a big shooter buck, you see him run off. What's going through your mind at that point? How do you? How do you adjust? Do you? Are you the type that goes and hunts right there, you know, bumping dump, or do you back out night without a doubt. I'm hunting right there the next day. I'm not there right then, I'm gonna if i'm if I'm walking in the hanging standard, I'm walking in and check Cameron, I jump a great big deer out of his bed. Um, I'm going to stop everything I'm doing. I'm going to set up a stand where i can shoot into that bed, and I'm gonna make sure I've got the wind right on the direction i think he's going to enter back into that bed. I'm gonna hope that he didn't smell on me. Um, but I'm going to hunt right there that um that afternoon, and I will be right back in there real early the next morning. Um. So yeah, the old Andre the Quisto bumping dump. Yeah. Um, I have not fortunately ever done that. I've never had a situation where I've done that. But if I did do that, that that that is what I would do. Yeah, it's uh, the old Andrew the Quisto move is legendary and um it's it's pretty interesting to think about, and it's a great way to take advantage of what a lot of people think is a really bad thing to have happened when you bump a big deer. But um, you know, in this kind of way you can take advantage of because you just even though you spooked that deer, you just uncovered one of the most valuable pieces of the puzzle. You know exactly where he was better. So if you're willing to take advantage of that, it's kind of hell, Mary, right, I mean, either it's going to work or you're gonna you know, Booker into his bedroom. But yeah, well you you you messed him up so sim because that you go around and finding another spot to kill him. He just got Trump three more stuff and everything else. You've already done the damage. You've either done a great thing and he didn't know what you are and he's gonna be right back in there because his bed worked and he got out of there safely, or you blown him out of the country. One of the two, so might as well might as well given the given a shot. But back to Andre, he and I'll leave the moon alone after this. But Andre and he wasn't paid by anybody to say anything. He was a big, big proponent of Jeff Murray's Moon Guide and using that overhead in that Red Moon. I mean he was. He was really old big on that. If you look at some some old vintage footage of white telendictions and listen to him talk about talk about the moon, um, you know, it's he was a big, big proponent of the moon. Yeah. That that was one of the things I noticed too, and one of the reasons why i've you know, begun to pay more attention to it. And you know, for me, I'm still trying to test the theory. You know, I've heard a lot of people talk about how this can work. Some people will say, well, I don't know. I'm at this point, you know, trying to start correlating the data, you know, okay, matching up what I've seen versus what the moon was. Paying attention to this is either way, it's pretty fascinating stuff to try and pay attention to. But when you hear people like like you, or Adam or Andre or Dan Infault or whoever it is who consistently are seeing this help them. It's hard to argue that there that there's not something there. Um. So I'm I'm intrigued with it, and uh, I need to get myself the guide for this year because I'm definitely gonna be watching it. Um. I'm curious when it comes to that time of year in general. You know, on average, are you what's your your favorite type of rut set up? I guess you know, there's some guys that love betting years, there's some guys that want to be in your traditional pinch point. Do you have like a favorite like if you could pick the ideal rut set up, what would that look like? I like, I like the flickets, man. I like thick areas, CRP fields, um, thick areas. I just it seems like but most all the big deer that I have killed have come out of come out of CRP or out of thickets and and and that's just from a personal standpoint. You know, a lot of guys, you know the ruts going on hunt where the those are? Yeah? But I think of you know, the deer whereafter the great big ones. A lot of times they'll go into those bough areas, pick those dose up at night and then bring them into a thicket you know, heard them in there, and keep them into there, you know, in their their domain. So so for me, um, you know, I'm a big thicket guy. When the ruts were you know, about to get going or on the edges of the thicket. Again, i haven't had a tremendous amount of success during the heat of the rut. Um. You know I've I've normally had my success pretty rut. But um, you know obviously I've hunted my butt off during the rut. So tickets, um, all day sits followed by you know, uh, real good fun rules um and can bottle neck areas uh, because you know, when those bucks are really out traveling, you know, if you get them in between the dough, you know, those all day sits and those funnels and bottlenecks can be be be really good. And you know, I've seen a lot of guys kill them on on food plots where they come all the way out in the food plot and they're running the doors around the food plots. I mean, I see that on sports and the Channel and and outdoor channel every night, so you know they kill them. They kill him the right on those food plots too, but from yep, so from a personal standpoint, and and not having the luxury of a five thousand maker um plantation in Iowa with pristine food plots, I like a big normally thicket and sit there all day. When it comes to those think it's usually do you like to be right in the middle of them, or usually hunting down wind of them, you know, waiting for something to cruise down whin and try to smell them out. Yeah, that, and and I don't like to get right in the middle of them, because I gotta get you know, get out of there at some point. I like to hunt on the edges of him where I can see over into him, you know, being to call it something if there's a bunk coming through there alone. Um, I don't like to get right in the middle. And yeah, I will look at it from a math standpoint and figure out where I think the deer is gonna be coming from and get to get the wind right and especially if he's coming by there, you know that he's gonna enter that where the winds in his favor. You know he's gonna send check it, want to check for hunters, want to check for predators in general, and wanting to find a hot though. So he's going to use that wind to get into that thicket. And of course you've got to pay attention to that. But yeah, I don't like to get in the absolute the middle of it. Um, that's not my that's not my speed. Yeah. Yeah, like you said, that's an interesting thing you brought up to, Like full access issue, access and exit, that's such an important thing that h Sometimes when we start talking about the rut, I think people kind of throw that out the window and stop worrying about access and exit and making sure you've got a stealthy to get in and out. But do you do you still pay attention to that? Is that something that's important to you even during that period time when deer a little bit crazy, not not super I mean again, I want to not not like early season when inner and eggs in a pre rut is so so important when the when the ruts going just haywire crazy. Um, you know, you gotta get in the right spot. And if that means giving up a little bit on your entry and exit that you know, by all means. Um, you know, you gotta get in there. And if you're gonna be sitting all day, you're you're only coming in you know, and out one time. Um. And so I still think you need to pay attention to it, but that doesn't need to be the number one factor. Yeah, that's kind of what I've seen too. It seems like when you're ranking those things in order of importance, it shifts during the rut a little bit. And uh, like you said, you've got to be in the right place in a lot of cases, right, you might spook some deer in the morning walking in let's say, if you've got a subpar access route, but the buck that's gonna roll through their noon, maybe he might have been a mile away. So exactly right, exactly right. Yeah, if it looks good, man, don't don't don't don't don't not hunt it because you can't get into it during the run, you know, get into it, take your lamps and then and then get ready for the mid morning, middle day, early afternoon. E've been hunt and you're you're already where you need to be. Yeah, so what do you have? Where are you hunting this coming fall? Joe I am leaving Yep, I am leaving UH thet of August, and I'm flying up to Edmonds and Alberta. UM. I've got a buddy up there that uh has some really good property that's north of the bozone and close to the Saskatchewan Boarder. Um. He does do some outfitting. UM. So I'm going to hunt with him for seven or eight days and we're gonna hunt. You're here in the morning in white tail over alfalfa and um canola in the evenings, so that that's my my my first hunt, and then um, depending on I've got cameras in Illinois, got cameras in Kansas that are already going and showing some pretty good deer um, you know, waiting for Velvet to get off to see what's what's gonna happen there. So I'll be hunting in Illinois, in Kansas during the pre rut um, you know rut time frame, and even before then if if if something big hard horned is daylighting, um, and then I always finish out the year UM in Texas. I take my son down to Texas and he rifle hunts and I bow hunt. We we've got a little least down there this this free range, and it's a lot of fun. There aren't a bunch of giants on there, but there are a bunch of a bunch of nice deer and and I love hunting with my son. He's twelve now and and so that's a real special time for us. And and so that's where I'll finish out the year. Sounds like a good, great, a great set of plans. There somefin here. Man. I'm excited. I can't wait, can't get here soon enough. And it's gonna be here soon August thirty. We are not far from that at all. I know. I leave just after that from my own early season white Tail trip, and I'm I'm just beginning to panic a little bit because I'm not sure I've got everything ready. So I get Yeah, I know the feeling. It's uh, it'll be here before we know it. And the broad edge need to be sharp, and the boat needs to be tuned. There's no doubt about it. Yeah, I gotta be prepared. So a final question for it, Joe, you know, being a member of team two hundred and hanging out with people like Adam and all those guys and all the other you know, successful hunters, I'm sure you've been able to be around. Is there anything that you've found that all these most successful hunters you know have in common or that they do differently than the average hunter. If there's anything in addition what we've already talked about, yep, yep, it is it is really really simple. I think a lot of guys get to the same level of of hunting prowess or hunting skill. I don't think that there's some super human hunting ninja um that's so much better that than somebody helps. I think a lot of guys have the same same level of hunting skills, and it is a skill you developed, but I think a lot of people can can get there. Um. The difference I have seen to the guys that consistently kill really big deer is they work extremely hard at it. They are They run, and they and and financially to many they sacrifice, and they've got the trail cameras, they've got the leases. Um. You know, they're not necessarily rich men by any stretch. You know. I hear that. It makes me so mad, But he's just rich. He you know, he's hunting in the best areas. That's not true. Some of the best white tail hunters I know are are are very very blue collar, humble means eyes, but they sacrifice financially and they work their butts off to kill these big deer. They're constantly looking for new places. They're constantly out scouting in the summer's glass and bean fields. They're they're spending you know, all they can spend on trail cameras and getting into the best properties they can get. But but they're working their butts off. So if there's one common denominator between all the good deer hunters that I know and have associated with, they work really hard at it. I'd have to say I've seen the same thing. There's some there's some things that there's not any kind of secret tactic. It's just simply putting your putting your time in energy where your mouth is, and putting in the work. That's it, man, common sense, common sense, really studying what's going on and working hard, and and you'd be as absolutely as good as any other hunter on the planet. Yeah. So, Joe, if people want to learn more about what you're doing with the with the hunts, the broker the brokering there, or you know, watch your episodes on Team two. Where can they go find that stuff online? Yeah, my my company is Sporting Adventures International, and the website is sporting a d V dot com like Alpha David Victor short for Adventures, So Sporting a DV dot com is is my website for for my company. And then UM two dot com is the Team two hundred website dot com UM and a lot of the episodes post up on there. And then obviously the show is running now at seven thirty on Monday nights on the Sports for channel right for Monday night football. UM once that gets started, and um did it runs a couple of times later in the week as well, So if people just keep over the show or record it, you know they'll be able to see it. But it's a it's a pretty cool show. We've got a lot of big buck killers on there, and then there's there's a lot a lot of big deer hit the ground with with archery equipment on that show. And I'm just proud to be part of that team. Yeah, a lot of good guys, seems like. And I've enjoyed I've enjoyed all the episodes I've seen myself. And to your point, I think two of your seasons are mostly episodes from two of the seasons are online to watch, you know, for anyone, whether you've got cable or not, or whether you've got you know, the time to watch the scheduled airing, So definitely check that out, guys. I'll make sure to put links to all that stuff in the blog the blog post for this podcast too. So, Joe, this has been This has been great. Really appreciate you spend some time here chatting. No, Mark, I appreciate it too, man. Good luck to you on that hunt. And uh yeah, let's keep in touch. I want to see some some great pictures this year. Sounds good. Hopefully, hopefully I'll have some good stories and you'll have some good stories and we can bring it back on to talk about how everything we talked about here today lead to a couple of big deer on the ground. Man, I've got my fingers calls you buddy, all right, Joe, have a good one. Alright. So there you have it, a lot to digest, but really helpful perspective, I think. So a couple of quick reminders before we go. First, be sure to check out what we're doing over on the One Wild podcast. That's my shorter form podcast with the Druries in which we answer listeners submitted deer hunting questions, and that show is really coming into form. We're trying to make some tweaks to make it even more fun and educational to listen to, so be sure check that out throughout the season in the coming weeks and submit your own question too. We would love to listen to it and try to answer to so. Also, we need to thank our partners who helped make this podcast possible. So thank you to sit Good Gear, Trophy, Ridge, Bear Archery, Redneck Blinds, on Terra Maps, Ozonics, Carbon Express, Maven Optics, and the White Tail Institute of North America. And speaking of also be sure to check out that free trial with deer Lab over at deer lab dot com slash w t H. That's deer lab dot com slash w t H. So, but all that said, thank you all for joining us today. I hope this one was helpful and I hope you will stay wired to hunt or can be co

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