00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. 00:00:19 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on the show, I'm joined by Matthew Schultz and Peter Costantakus to discuss logistics and tactics for planning a whitetail adventure in canoe country like the Boundary Waters or other similar lake filled wilderness areas. All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their Camera for Conservation initiative. And today we're continuing the Whitetail Adventure series that we kicked off last week. The idea here being to look at different unique ways that you can experience a whitetail hunt and an adventure one and the same. You know, your white tail hunts don't always have to be going on the back for you, sitting in the same old, same old tree and shooting that buck you've had on camera for three straight years. Right, that can be fun. I like that just as much as the next guy. But I think there's also a time and a place for getting outside of your comfort zone, expanding your boundaries, trying new things, trying a new adventure, something that's outside of the norm. And so this month that is what we're exploring. Some wilder ways to whitetail hunt. Last week we talked about floating rivers for bucks. This week we're talking about canoe country. Now this is kind of adjacent that was river flows. This is going to be more lake country. So planning a whitetail adventure an expedition in these wild areas full of lakes, like the Boundary Waters of northern Minnesota or northern Wisconsin, maybe the Adirondecks of New York. There's a whole bunch of regions like this across the entire United States. I could see you doing this in reservoir systems down south too. There's a lot of great, big wild places with incredible water access through lakes and reservoirs. How do you plan that kind of hunt? What kind of gear do you need, what kind of tactics work, what kind of approach, what kind of plan do you want to have in place? That is what we're going to talk about here today, and my two guests are folks who have a lot of experience with this kind of thing. There are two diehard hunters and residents of a region just outside of the Boundary Waters Elia, Minnesota. They live and breathe this stuff and have a ton of experience pulling off incredible trips into these places to hunt, fish, canoe and just have a darn good time. So my guests today number one are Matthew Schultz, the program manager for Sportsmen for the Boundary Waters, and Peter Costantikus, the owner and operator of Boundary Waters Outfitters. So that's the game plan as I discussed to talk about, you know, how to plan this kind of trip, so logistics, gear, all that kind of stuff, and then actual tactics for hunting, so how to use water access to hunt, how to find deer in these kinds of big woods areas, specifically kind of the Northern Lake country. We talk about habitat types, topography, the types of setups that might work, calling tactics and regions such as this. So you're gonn get some hunting ideas, You're gonna get some planning and camping and expedition ideas. And I think maybe more than anything, You're gonna get some inspiration to pack a canoe, throw a canoe up on top of the truck, and get out there. Try something new today. So, without any further ado, let's get to my chat with Matt and Peter. Hey, guys, I got to interrupt you. Before we get to my chat with Peter and Matt, I have an emergency update for you. The region that you are about to hear about from Matt and Peter, the Boundary Waters Canoe area of wilderness, is being threatened once again. Just as of today, the day before this podcast drops, we have gotten word that a serious threat is back on the table for this region. Now you're gonna hear soon from Peter and Matt about how special the Boundary Waters are, about what an incredible place this is for hunting and fishing and camping and canoeing. And at the end of the chat, Matt's going to explain to you what types of threats have faced this region, in particular a mind that has been proposed right on the edge of the wilderness. And you're gonna hear about how hunters and anglers and other recreators over the last handful of years have been able to make a big enough of a stink to get folks to put an end to it. Within the last couple of years, a moratorium was placed on mining within this area, so the Boundary Waters were safe as of I think it was twenty twenty three now as of today, so this is updated. Since we recorded this podcast, a new bill has been introduced that would call for the removal of those protections and allow for the fast tracking of these minds to happen once again. This new law is the Superior National Forest Restoration Act. This would remove those protections, like I said, and with Republican control the Senate and the House and the Presidency, this thing is very likely to pass if we don't do something about it. So I hope that after you listen to this chat, you will go and visit. Let me see the website. Here is Sportsman BWCA dot org. That's the Sportsman for the Bounder Waters website where you can learn more about this region and how we can take action. Let our voices be heard to once again fight the good fight for the Bounder Waters to make sure we can keep this place healthy, clean, accessible and thriving with wildlife and fish. So we can go out there and enjoy them. All that said, now we can get to my chat with Peter and Matt and please visit Sportsman bw c A dot org afterwards and let your voice be heard. All right with me on the line now is Matthew Schultz and Peter co Stanikus. Did I get it to Costantikus? I got it all right? Thank you, Thank you guys for joining me here today. 00:06:31 Speaker 3: Thanks Mark. 00:06:32 Speaker 2: I'm I'm excited about this one because we're in the middle of a series right now on the podcast exploring ways to add adventure to your whitetail hunts. There's there's kind of been a little bit of a narrowing of what most people think about when they think about whitetail hunting. There's, I don't know, there's a rut that allow of us are falling into, and so I wanted to start chatting with folks about ways that there are white tail adventures possible. You know, a lot of people I think, imagine going to Alaska if they want an adventure, or chase an elk out west or something like that. But but really there's ways to do that in whitetail country too. And it seems like you guys have been able to experience kind of one of those pinnacle experiences of which I've been able to dabble. I've gotten had up there a couple times. But give me, give me your pitch, and I guess I'll start with you, Matt on the appeal of a canoe country white tail adventure in a place like the Boundary Waters or similar. What's what's the appeal to this kind of thing? 00:07:40 Speaker 4: I think one thing I tell a lot of people is that the canoe is one of the most efficient modes of transportation for a hunter or an angler, purely because you can fit all your stuff in it and you can carry it literally anywhere. And so when you look at a map, take Superior National Forest for instance, we're talking about millions and millions of acres and it's so intimate and dating. When you look at that, you're like, how am I going to get in there? Where I'm looking at white tail spots that are five miles in the back country. Well, that canue can literally take you anywhere in that spot. And you know, if you're willing to accept the adventure aspect of it and carry that canoe on your back, it's pretty limitless, and so I'm approaching a hunt from that. 00:08:20 Speaker 3: Aspect knowing that it's just so limitless. 00:08:23 Speaker 4: It's a lot like mountain hunting, where if you can go wherever you have the strength of courage to go to. 00:08:29 Speaker 3: And that's what's so appealing to me, at least what the canoe is. It's just endless. 00:08:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, and what about the particular region that you live and spend so much time right there around the Bounder Waters. I mean, I have a hard time finding the right words to describe how special the Boundary Waters are without feeling an entire book. I mean, I've had some really profound experiences out there, and just a couple times i've been, You've spent, you know, exponentially more time than I have. The appeal to that region. 00:09:02 Speaker 4: Well, first off, I think just geographically it's really unique. It was carved by the glaciers billions of years ago, and so one thing that I like to note when I'm on it, whether it's a fishing trip in the Boundary Waters or hiking orhunting or whatever, is that the topography changes so much, so you'll be paddling along cliff sides and then all of a sudden you're in a fast moving river and now you're in a muskeg and it's constantly changing, which is something like really exciting for me. I find that to be a huge driver for that particular region. 00:09:36 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's beautiful, that's for sure. What about you, Peter, what's your pitch to focus on why this kind of trip and why this area in particular is so special. 00:09:46 Speaker 5: Well, the boundary waters in particular, kind of spinning off what Matt said, the canoe gives you the ability to access areas that ninety percent of people aren't going to be able to touch because you have the boundary waters. As a you have people traveling these river ways. Rarely do you have people putting their feet on the ground in that timber. So it's kind of a unique experience in the fact that you're hunting a place that, you know, if someone might have not been on foot there for quite some time, and you're hunting animals that really are wild. 00:10:20 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I can see that being a feature, but also a bug a little bit. I mean, that's got to make it pretty tough to hunt. Well, I can't, I shouldn't. I shouldn't say it could make it I know it makes it hard to hunt, given my given my whitetail hunt there, so I have to ask you this then. So the on the plus side, the place is amazing canoe country, and the canoe is a tool or incredible tools. I would probably add to the mix, which you guys didn't bring up, but I'm sure we will discuss. You know, the fact that it's such a well rounded experience you can have in a wild place like this, where you can do so much more than just whitetail hunt while you're there, Right, But what's the worst thing about trying to pull off a white tail adventure somewhere like this, Peters? What's on the cons side of the list? 00:11:12 Speaker 5: Man, It's kind of a double edged sword because it is access. You know, you know from your experience how choked up stuff is up here, so you're just making so much noise trying to get back to you that spot you saw on satellite that looked real good, and you know there's ways to work around it. But especially if you're coming up here for the first time and you haven't had the chance to shed hunter or go to an area multiple times, you have no idea what you're walking into. Satellite it's only going to tell you so much. So that's always been a challenge for me because I'll see something on satellite and be like, oh, it's only a one hundred and twenty yard walk. Well that one hundred and twenty yards, you know you're hurdling dead ball, some boulders and everything else in between. 00:11:54 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can get a little a little rough I imagined along the way. Yeah, what about you, man, what's what's the possible reality of the situation that's less desirable? 00:12:07 Speaker 3: Well, definitely what Peter said. 00:12:09 Speaker 4: I mean case in point, the last white tail hunt I was on this fall in the boundary waters. We did the exact same thing, where like we paddled it here, we use this trail. It's only one hundred and fifty yards, but every single yard that we had to make was crawling over and under things, and your backpack is catching on every single branch. So it's it's willderness with a capital W. Right, So it's not maintained. 00:12:30 Speaker 3: It's wild. It's a tough country to get into. 00:12:32 Speaker 4: The other part that's daunting that I spoke about before, is that just the sheer size, right, I mean, if you go just as a paddler. It's on inspiring how big the Boundy Waters is. You can't even imagine how much space you're looking at. Then add the hundreds of thousands of acres like Peter's talking about when you step out of your canoe. Trying to pattern an individual or even just any deer in a place like that is truly challenging rewarding, and I think Peter will probably tell you that harvesting a day in the Boundary Waters is a massive, awesome achievement, but it certainly comes with a lot of homework, research, blood, sweat and tears. 00:13:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned you know, it's wilderness with a capital W. I know what you mean by that, but there's probably some people that don't. Can you just explain what you know official wilderness means in this context and why that makes, you know, the Boundary Waters even more unique than many other wild places that folks might be used to. 00:13:36 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. 00:13:36 Speaker 4: So the Boundary Waters Canoe Area of Wilderness is a designated wilderness area. It is federally designated as a wilderness and has certain protections, One of which I think the impacts people the most is there's no motor use. But the exception of a couple border lakes, no chain saws, you can't bring a hand drill, so like if you're ice fishing, right, we have to handscrew the steaks into the ice and stuff like that really insists upon kind of like the primal aspect of hunting and fishing and paddling, which is obviously why you have to paddle to get around in the aunty waters or height, I should say, but. 00:14:12 Speaker 2: No, no roads, no outboard motors, no four wheelers, no, just your feet in the canoe. 00:14:18 Speaker 4: And that's one point one million acres of that. So you can imagine it's a bit daunting when you're looking at on X and trying to decide what your game plan is. 00:14:28 Speaker 2: Yeah. So so given that, given this massive scale, given this rough, thick terrain in many places, given you know, we haven't even got to this, but I'm sure we will. Given you know, what can be pretty tough conditions at times, how possible is a deer hunt, Peter. I I know from my experience that at least what I saw was was not a super high deer population. I've talked to other people who have lamented a low deer population when it comes to I guess expectations for a hunt like this, What should we be imagining possible, what kind of goals are realistic, and what's just outside the realmal possibility. 00:15:13 Speaker 5: I feel like you have to be chasing the experience more than the animal. Most definitely possibility was our overall unit in one eighteen. I don't know about last year, but the prior year, I think the total success rate even outside the boundary waters was I think eleven percent. So a lot of people eating tag soup, that's for sure. But the possibility is definitely there, but it's going to take a lot of time to figure out what you're doing. You know, there's out of that wilderness. You know that one point one million acres. It's not like there's deer everywhere. They're confined to very specific areas that have the habitat that's conducive for them. You know, if you see something that looks good, it might be moose country, and that's not necessarily gonna work out. Sometimes you get an overlap where you have moose and deer in the same location, but for the most part, they like to stay away from each other. So I'd say the possibility of having a harvest is definitely there. I've harvested. I know other people that have harvested, But it's nothing that you shouldn't show up hoping to fill your tag. You know, have your expectations low so you're not disappointed at the end. 00:16:27 Speaker 6: Of the day. 00:16:27 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now that said though, from what I hear, if you do get a shot at a deer up there, they're pretty impressive specimens, aren't they. 00:16:37 Speaker 5: In our northern region, we definitely have you know, that big bodied, tight chocolate rack, and these deer can get to you know, that five to seven year mark. 00:16:47 Speaker 6: And above. 00:16:49 Speaker 5: Not saying that's what you're always going to see. With the mild winters we've had the past couple of years, I've noticed a lot of young bucks around, which is good, you know what it means. But there's a gift take with those light winners as well, So you do have the opportunity to harvest, you know, a true north Woods giant. 00:17:08 Speaker 6: But I don't know. 00:17:10 Speaker 5: I'm personally like, if I see something with anwers out there, it's it's in the fourth. 00:17:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that. What about what about you, Matt, what's your take on kind of proper expectations for this kind of this kind of adventure. 00:17:23 Speaker 4: I think you should get excited if you get a shot opportunity, and uh yeah, I mean Peter Peter said it perfectly right. There are there are a lot of deer in there, but it's just spread out a lot, and so kind of managing those expectations have fun. Learn as much as humanly possible while you're in there. You know one thing that I always catch you saying, Mark is you only get so many Septembers, you only get so many October, so many ruts. Use every single minute that you have in the boundary waters to learn a little bit more, and even just finding sign and then approaching it the next week or the next year with Okay, well they're using this corridor and this and that, just building off of that. I think that that, like long term progression as a deer hunter in a region like this is the most exciting part. Then obviously you hope that it culminates in shooting deer. 00:18:16 Speaker 2: Yeah. You know what was so funny to me on my trip up there, My biggest trip, like the full week immersion that I had the first time, was how despite the fact that we as a group only saw two whitetail, it felt like an incredibly action packed week, Like despite not seeing our target, there were so many other things to do. There were so many other activities, just like the pursuit itself was so fun and different than the usual hunt that I never felt like this was boring and disappointing. And I think it comes back to kind of what you guys are talking about, having expectations of enjoying the experience, not just seeing a big deer and shooting it. It was you know, the camping itself was fun. The paddling itself was fun. The you know, cooking out on the rocky shoreline was fun. The catching fish was fun. The hunting for grouse was fun. Like all of these things added up to making it one of my favorite deer hunts ever when I individually didn't even see a deer. So so add on tap. If you eventually do figure it out and you are seeing a deer get a chance, I mean, what an unbelievable outcome. That would be just a hell of a cherry on top. So that's that's I think a big part of the appeal to me is going into this with like an incredibly well rounded set of possibilities, which is which is something you could apply to a lot more hunts, probably if you were willing to diversify. But I think in an area like this, the boundary waters or canoe country or wherever, just by virtual of being by water and kind of what that brings to the table, It gives you a lot of alternatives. I guess which is appealing. What do you what are your thoughts on I guess what I'm pitching here though, this like kind of multi species approach when you guys usually go at it. Do you do you think are you best served to go out there just focusing on deer or what I just described what I did, is that the better way to go Where I was kind of doing a little bit of everything. We fished in the middle of the day. We grouse hunt in the middle of the day, we hunted in the evenings, in the mornings. You know, we slept in one morning and fished, and that might have hurt my chances to kill a deer, but I was really happy with the experience in general. Is that is that what you would recommend or do you think that if you want to kill one or if you want to do this right, you gotta just barrel full speed ahead. Focus on deer. 00:20:39 Speaker 5: What do you think, Peter, I think you got to wrap everything into it, you know, grouse hunting, hanging out with friends on the shoreline, and fishing. There's so much to do from your campsite. 00:20:51 Speaker 6: You know, you can have. 00:20:52 Speaker 5: Grouse two hundred yards back there. You could have fish right off the shore line. I feel like you're kind of limiting yourself if you're only chasing deer while you're out there. Granted, I guess that depends how much time you have. If you only have three days, two nights, and you really want to get after it, then maybe spend most of your time in the timber trying to figure things out. But after having a tough day and you know all these other possibilities are out there to be having some fun, it can be kind of hard. So I recommend to everyone, you know, bring a fishing round, bring a break action for. 00:21:26 Speaker 6: Ten or a twenty two, something like that, just so you have that option. 00:21:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, would you add anything, Matt. 00:21:33 Speaker 4: I'll just play Devil's Advocate and say it's kind of like muskie fishing. Like as soon as you put down the muskie rod and switch to something else, that was probably your opportunity. So I would say, you know, if you have limited time, like Peter was saying, totally focus on on deer hunting. I would say, obviously, like if you have a long time or if you live nearby, go up there, soak it all in and enjoy everything. But I think that you're exponentially increasing your likelihood of harvesting a deer you're treating it like a deer hunt. 00:22:02 Speaker 3: And case in point, Peter is. 00:22:04 Speaker 4: Talking about how loud you can be and moving through the timber, and deer hunting is probably the only reason you're going to have to be quiet in there, And so I would argue that you probably want to focus as much as possible on that if you want to successful as far as harvesting goes. 00:22:19 Speaker 2: And maybe would it be fair to say that if you're going to take this diverse approach, that maybe there should be certain places that are just where you're gonna do the deer hunting, and then there's other places that you'll allow yourself to do the grouse hunting or other stuff. But obviously walking around trying to kick up a grouse is not going to help your deer hunting efforts. In a particular region, So probably should have some separation between those two. 00:22:38 Speaker 4: Right, You'm probably going to put yourself in a position too where your grouse hunting and you're going to bump a deer with a four ten in your hand. 00:22:45 Speaker 2: So yeah, yes, okay, So if I were to want to plan a kind of hunt like this, what's the best time frame? What time of year is most conducive to have a great experience and a chance of a deer? What would you say, Peter. 00:23:03 Speaker 5: Well, I guess first you have to decide if you want to go bow or rifle. If you're going bo, i'd say the last two weeks of October, first week of November, you know, just like anywhere else. But you really got to watch what the temperatures are doing because you don't want to get caught in an ice up out there. And you got to look into water levels too, because a lot of the places that I like to hunt require river travel, so back then, those water levels can fluctuate quite a bit throughout the fall. If you can swing a rifle trip, it really opens up your possibilities. You know, you can hunt those beaver ponds and stuff like that that are a little more open. 00:23:43 Speaker 6: Uh Yeah, So I'd say, yep. 00:23:48 Speaker 2: I was just gonna ask if you could elaborate on the ice up thing, because I'm not sure people will understand exactly what you mean or why that's so important. 00:23:55 Speaker 6: Why are we worried about ice out there? 00:23:57 Speaker 5: So lakes typically start freezing up, it varies year to year, but first two weeks in November, and you know, paddling through even a really thin layer of ice, especially in a kevlar canoe, is just a daunting task. It's kind of fun if you're just breaking some ice cruising through a bay, but if you're just eating paddle strokes and doing that over and over again, it's. 00:24:22 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's tough. 00:24:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet so. Okay, So if we're talking, you know, either late October or early November, that's our window. It sounds like you mentioned that ice could be something to watch out for. What are other conditions that we should be prepared for. Should I expect the same kind of thing that I'm gonna be hunting in in southern Michigan in early November? Or is it significant more arctic, more rough, more dramatic up there? What's your experience meant with conditions? 00:25:09 Speaker 6: Well? 00:25:09 Speaker 4: I think yes, it is colder generally speaking, the further north yougo. And but I think if we just set aside the boundary waters and talk about just like canoe country or like paddle hunting in general, you're putting yourself in scenarios that are so different than hunting like a farm field in Iowa or whatever. Right when you're in a canoe, there's no cover. So even if it's just rain, well, that becomes a serious issue if you don't have the right gear or if you can't get out of the rain. And you know, it's okay to be in a sturdy tree stand when you have forty nine hour winds, but you know that can severely impact when you can go and leave and the safety of a paddling trip. And so I would say wind, rain, ice conditions are probably going to be your biggest concerns when it comes to a canoe deer hunting trip. 00:25:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, great point. What about gear? And so given that, given that there's a diverse set of potentially you know, inclement elements we're dealing with here for that kind of hunt, is it you know, typically a wall tent and a stove kind of deal that you guys like to have or do you sometimes just go out of a backpacking tent. I guess let's start with like the camping gear situation, like living out there in this these kinds of elements. What's your recommended setup? And I'll let you continue, man, then I'll bounce over to you, Peter. 00:26:28 Speaker 4: So I, in my opinion, if you have a sturdy tent, that is all you need for a like a four season boundary waters trip. That being said, if you have the extra scratch, I can't recommend like seek outside enough. Right, having that warm, hot tent to go back to after a long, crappy day out in the woods is I mean, it's definitely a game changer. You have to kind of weigh though, how much time are you actually spending a camp, Like what's your mission? Are you going to go relax and enjoy the sunrise or do you just need to. 00:26:57 Speaker 3: Get to sleep? 00:26:58 Speaker 4: And if that's the case, I would say the weight, even though those tents aren't even that heavy these days, save the weight and just have a sturdy, well staked or season tent. And then beyond that some of the things I would just say, without a doubt, you got to bring a zero degree bag. 00:27:16 Speaker 3: I mean, unless you have unseasonably warm weather. 00:27:18 Speaker 4: I think hunting season at the Boundary waters requires that, and then really really sturdy clothes. I know a lot of people put way too much focus into their attire, you know, and it's like I gotta get this pant the first light and coou whatever. But you kind of do need to get really good clothes, you know, wool obviously no cotton. But then you have to think about with canoe hunting, there's so many different terrains in a given day that you're going to encounter, and there's not really a one size fits all other than probably the best kind of like pants, for instance, that you can buy. You're paddling, you're stepping out of your paddle, you're going through brush, then you have to sit in a stand or sit on the ground and get on your knees and stuff like that. So I encourage people that don't spare expenses when it comes to really quality attire and then obviously a solid four season tent. 00:28:08 Speaker 2: Yeah. What about you, Peter, what's your take on camp situation gear in general? 00:28:15 Speaker 5: I think if you're going to be out there a while having an Eyelon style hot tent, I try to stay away from canvas just because it gets too heavy. But exactly what I was saying, like a teepee style seek outside tent. I usually just do a typical four season tent and a zero or a twenty degree bag and bring hand warmers, keep them in my armpits near my arteries to keep me warm at night, or you know, fill up an analgen with hot water by my feet. Another piece your footwear is so important because there when it's that cold out, there's. 00:28:49 Speaker 6: No way to drag your feet. 00:28:51 Speaker 5: So a shinnhai muck boot and then a hunting boot as well, and then usually I'll bring a pair of cracks or something if I'm just kicking it around. Ye, but yeah, you do not want what seed out there, and it can happen really easily, you know, just just flipping off a rock when you're getting into the canoe. It's I got great. I got a wet foot for four days and now you're dealing with that. 00:29:13 Speaker 6: Yeah. 00:29:15 Speaker 5: Another piece of equipment that I've found super helpful. Multiple headlamps for sure, because I just you know, have one in the tent, have one that's out there with you. Because I've had a headlamp die on me in the woods personally on a camping trip and it, Uh, definitely it's a buyer unto you. 00:29:37 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a problem. Yeah, so you bring up water. Obviously, water is all around when you're out there in the Boundary waters or similar region, so that can cause some problems other than rubber boots and you mentioned but yeah, you mentioned. I guess rubber boots. What other things do we need to be planning for and bringing along with this to deal with water? I'm wondering about ways to keep your gear wet or dry when you're canoeing, Ways to keep stuff dry when you're out there going from spot to spot, rain gear, anything else over the course of a hunt that helps you keep stuff from getting soaked and staying soaked. Matt, does anything come to mind? 00:30:22 Speaker 6: Yeah? 00:30:22 Speaker 4: So I would say the gold standard of any canoe travel is going to be a voyager style pack, which rather than having like a framed mountain pack, it's basically just like a huge sack that straps on it. But the key to that is using a liner. And I'm sure Peter, being an outfitter, is probably packed a thousand of these things, probably ten thousand, But basically a plastic liner that goes inside you put all your gear in and flip the plastic over it, and it almost ensures that you're going to have dry gear. Even if you flip, I think you've got probably a minute before it starts seeping in. And so yeah, pack liner, pack liner, that's probably the most important thing for keeping your gear dry while you're out and. 00:31:03 Speaker 5: About Yeah, what would you say, Peter, I'd go with Matt on the pack liner. The big thing is you need to make sure you have like a four to six mil thick bag because you don't want holes getting punched in that. 00:31:15 Speaker 6: And it's amazing how one little hole in that. 00:31:18 Speaker 5: Pack liner can just allow so much moisture to get in there, because once that gets in there and it starts to compensate, then everything's kind of damp. They do a really good job though, you know you just like I was saying, you just roll top since your pack super tight, and yeah, most of it is you're gonna get so much water in the canoe just from getting in and out and your paddle splashing on your jay strokes and whatnot. So yeah, just having everything in their water tight. Sometimes I'll even put my clothes in a separate dry bag inside that pack just as an extra layer of protection, but usually the portage pack does just fine with the liner. 00:31:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna ask you. When I do backcountry trips where I'm worried about stuffetting wet, I'll usually put my sleeping bag in like a waterproof stuff sack as well. And then also I was curious, do you guys ever wear rain gear even when it's not raining, or at least like in your pants, because for the same thing you just mentioned there, peer like when you're stroking with a paddle, things splashing in and around, does it ever make sense to keep rain gear on just to keep you dry in those types of situations too? 00:32:29 Speaker 5: I wear my rain gear lowers typically when I'm paddling. The main benefit I found I use some pretty heavy duty Alaska hard gear for intolt trading, and when my rain pant is over my boot, if I do go over, the pressure almost makes them into like a later, which is nice. 00:32:49 Speaker 2: That's handy. Okay, continuing down the gear list, A big one here picking the right canoe for the job. What are your recommendations as far as the kind of canoe we need to pull off? A big expedition like this. This is different than just canoe and down the river on a sunny summer day where we're taking a lot of stuff out there with us, and like you said, it could be tough conditions. What is the correct tool for this application? And I'll let I'll let Matt lead. You looked eager. 00:33:20 Speaker 3: Yeah. 00:33:21 Speaker 4: I actually wrote some notes on this because I think it's like it really is a huge difference, and a lot of people start canoe hunting without any background information in this, and it can be a make or break for the success or torture of your hunt. 00:33:35 Speaker 3: So this September, when I was bow. 00:33:37 Speaker 4: Hunting, I had to paddle on a really sketchy, shallow river to get into my tree stand. Every day I have a one hundred pound old town made out of plastic that I can just absolutely beat off of waterfalls. Cannot portage it. I mean I can, but it's it's horrible, miserable, but it's super durable. 00:33:58 Speaker 3: It can. 00:33:58 Speaker 4: I mean, I could probably own elephant in there right, pack out anything, and that makes sense for that I don't have to portage it in that particular spot. 00:34:07 Speaker 3: Every other application. 00:34:09 Speaker 4: I use a kevlar and I'm guessing Peter's probably gonna back me up on that. But kevlar, I mean, we're talking forty five pounds for your average Kevy and. 00:34:18 Speaker 3: They can still hold several several. 00:34:19 Speaker 4: Hundred pounds in addition to yourself. They're easy to navigate, and they're pretty durable. The only other I guess possibility would be in the luminum, which is tried and true. They're affordable, they're pretty lightweight, and same thing, you can beat them up like crazy and still float. So that's kind of my take on that I would recommend. If you're only getting one, probably get a kevlar. They're a little bit more expensive, but it can take you almost anywhere. 00:34:46 Speaker 5: Okay, what about you, Peter, I'd say for almost every use case, kevlar for sure, just because I'm portaging one of those old town Compositive or Royal X canoes. It just which is your shoulders and you already have enough weight with you when you're doing an adventure like this. The only application I really see for aluminum is if you think you might be breaking some ice coming out of there, because the kevlar boats just don't have enough keel to get through it easily. But the aluminums go through it pretty quick. Another thing I do like about aluminums is that they are heavier, so if you're dealing with wind, you know, it kind of helps you track a little bit straighter. But that can be mitigated in a kevlar canoe if you're just adding some weight to it. I've had times where, you know, even for summer boundary waters trips, it's real windy and we're just going on a day trip, like, all right, let's put a life jacket in the front of the canoe and throw a boulder in there to protect the kevlar, just to help you track, especially if there's a weight differential between two paddlers. 00:35:55 Speaker 2: See, you guys both brought up the weight thing and portaging, which maybe some people aren't you experienced doing, But basically we're talking about getting from one lake to another, from one water source to another by literally picking up your your canoe up over your head and walking it to the next spot. That's a big part of canoe country adventures of any kind, definitely up there in the boundary waters. Are there any best practices or little tips and tricks you guys have picked up over the years to make that a less daunting or painful process because it yeah, I mean, it could be a pain in the butt sometimes, but I'm sure there's ways to make it a little bit less. So what are your expert pieces of advice on that little part of the experience, Matt. 00:36:42 Speaker 4: It's like one of the great debates in canee travel is how did best portage? I think it's based on really how much stuff you actually have. The debate is to do a through portage or to parse it out if you have more than one person with you. So the first person, as soon as the canoe lands, take all the gear halfway, come back and get the rest, and then the person paddling continues through with the canoe all the way. And I have found that to be a little bit more tedious. I don't prefer that method. I like, it's just before we land the canoe, you're taking this, I'm taking that, and we're going straight through. I'm actually curious to see what you have to say, Peter as which one works best. 00:37:24 Speaker 3: But that is a hot topic, is how the best portage. 00:37:27 Speaker 4: I personally just like, get it done, embrace the suck, and get it over. 00:37:31 Speaker 5: With, would you see, Peter, I'm definitely a fan of single trip portages unless it's really short, you know, I'd say thirty rods or less, which a road is sixteen and a half feet. The big thing is make sure you have everything in your canoe just packed up. Having a whole bunch of loose stuff that you have to carry in your hands is tedious. So when I'm in travel mode, I have my nuts, canoe, chairs, rods, everything's strapped into the canoe. So when we get to a portage, we're pulling two packs out and the canoe is going on someone's shoulders. There's not a whole bunch of organizing to do, because that's the time that you spend getting in and out of the canoe at the start and end of the portages is really what eats up a lot of time. 00:38:20 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what about actually carrying the canoe? Is there any little tips there to make that less you know, stressful on the body more comfortable any Is there a right way to pop that sucker over your head and do it or is it however feels comfortable. 00:38:37 Speaker 5: There's a There's two methods that we show our guests here. The most common is kind of the buddy system, where two people are lifting the canoe over your head and then one person is sliding their hand down the gunwales to get to the yolk and put it on their shoulders. If you have a little bit more experience, you can kind of do almost like a power clean and throw the can you over your shoulders. 00:39:01 Speaker 6: But it's really not a weight thing. It's more balance for sure. 00:39:07 Speaker 2: Okay, anything you'd ad Matt yoke pads, gotta have yoke pads or it's just gonna eat your shoulders up, especially if you have a long trip. 00:39:16 Speaker 4: So some people make them themselves. They throw just like foam pads and lash them on there. I recommend getting like the correct size and they make like there's a kit you can use for your canoe and kind of fit your shoulder size. 00:39:29 Speaker 3: But I can't recommend it enough. 00:39:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, So one thing to point out. In a lot of places around quote unquote canoe country, I know, definitely there by the boundary waters, you can rent canoes and a lot of the skiar too. Right. You don't have to buy this stuff for the trip, you can you can use it for the week and just pay for that time. Right. 00:39:50 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's something we do here. Pretty much. Everyone's renting kevlar. Nowadays, we rarely send out aluminums anymore unless there's a use case. But I think you need to figure out how often you're going to be doing this. I've had a lot of clients that come up year after year than after doing it three years in a row, they say, Oh, this is something we're going to do yearly or twice a year for the rest of our life. It makes more sense to buy a used kevlar canoe than just around. And I guess it also depends where you're coming from. When we have people flying them, they don't really want to deal with the hassle of owning a kevlar canoe, whereas most of the people that buy or use an inventory or from Minneapolis and the surrounding areas. 00:40:35 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. Uh okay. One last kind of I guess sort of gear question that being eating when you're on these kinds of trips. Do you guys like to go super minimalist and just bring standard like backpacking meals or do you elevate the eating experience a little bit more because of the fact that you have more space and a canoe and do something you know different, You know, Peter we have a take on that. 00:41:02 Speaker 5: Yeah, So usually for first breakfast, lunch, and dinner, I'm doing fresh food, you know, like steaks, surf and turf, So we send people out with individually cryovac steaks. First morning, we'll do breakfast burritos, so we have hardshell egg carriers. See, you don't worry about those getting crushed. From there, I switched over to a mixture of dehydrated and fresh food that's kind of non perishable. So for lunches, I'm doing pbnj's salami, sandwiches, cheese, and crackers, stuff like that. 00:41:37 Speaker 6: Them. 00:41:39 Speaker 5: Personally, I like to do a lot of oatmeal for breakfast, just because I'm trying to get on the water to fish. But all our dinners are dehydrated after that, unless you're doing a fish ray. 00:41:53 Speaker 2: What about you, met, what's your what's your food game look like on one of these trips. 00:41:59 Speaker 3: I used to be kind of a minimalist. I don't like dealing with cooking and stuff like that. 00:42:04 Speaker 4: But ever since I started going with the people have gone with the last year, I'm definitely sold on fresh food. There are ways to pack it down and make it really simple. Now we have a dehydrator two, which we can kind of like make some of. 00:42:17 Speaker 3: Our own stuff. 00:42:20 Speaker 4: My favorite Boundary Water's meal that's super lightweight, easy to make is a Japanese curry with prepackaged kind of like Chicken of the Sea, Chicken whatever that brand is. And then minute rice all done in one pot. Takes twenty minutes, easy to clean, super delicious. But meals like that are just super light weight, easy to make. There's no reason to spend sixteen bucks a pop on a dehydrated meal if you can avoid it. 00:42:47 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can agree that. Also. The other thing to mention probably is if you are going to have this diverse experience out there doing some grouse hunting, doing some fishing, want to eat some that too, right, Like bring the proper gear to be able to enjoy a shore lunch. That was probably my favorite thing of my whole trip was eating fresh fish right on the rocky shoreline next to the lake, or eating you know, grouse right you know the day of I mean it was, it was fantastic and made for such a I don't know, such a great a great meal and day and made the whole thing better. So one of them live it up. 00:43:27 Speaker 4: One of the most satisfying feelings on the planet is to walk over the rock that your friends are setting up camp on with the stringer of walleye and you're like, I got it tonight. 00:43:36 Speaker 3: I took care of it. 00:43:38 Speaker 2: That is very primal, deep in our DNA kind of thing right there. Providing. Yeah, so let's let's shift. Let's shift how to provide, which is how we can actually kill a deer on one of these trips. First step in that, I think is probably just choosing a productive area. This is one of the biggest challenges I had when I was learning We're trying to plan my first trip, because I didn't know the area at all, and so I was depending on little tips and ideas from other people. But when you're looking at a map or when you're starting to think through like where do I want to start in this vast Superior National Forest or wherever you are, Peter, what's your recommendation for someone when trying to drill down to like, hey, this looks like it could be a good place to deer hunt, when, like you mentioned, it's a vast area and many of these other places with lakes are big wild country. How do you pick a spot to start. 00:44:34 Speaker 5: The first thing I do is look for terrain features that are different. You know, in the big woods, you just need to You're not going to find walking through straight lines of timber. Okay, there's a deer sign here, so you can always call them outfitter or if you call one of the CEOs around here. They're always willing to talk to people about the deer population here and kind of what's going on. They're not going to give away, you know, any huge secrets or anything like that. But I look for personally, I'm a big fan of beater ponds, just a diverse you know, you'll have moose, bear pretty much everything cruising through those, and it provides you with kind of an open area and an access point. 00:45:14 Speaker 6: Goal. 00:45:17 Speaker 5: Yeah, just trying to dissect this terrain and find something unique instead of just tranking through the woods. 00:45:25 Speaker 2: What about you met anythings, any features or topography, anything else that's helped you kind of isolate productive areas. 00:45:34 Speaker 4: The only two kind of like standout land features that have at least helped me consistently locate deer are pinch points that connect wintering habitat to water escape routes, food and stuff like that. Wintering habitat is definitely a big part of staying alive for a long. 00:45:53 Speaker 3: Time up here as deer. 00:45:55 Speaker 4: And then the other one is muskeggs, partially for what Peter said is you can actually see pretty far. And the other part is that a muskeg is like its own mini ecosystem. So a lot of times they'll have all their patches kind of throughout, you know, like a half ache or alder patch, which is good winter and habitat. But then the muskeg will be surrounded by thick timber and so there's good escape routes. And that's just kind of what I've seen them relate to the most in the boundary waters and areas like that. 00:46:23 Speaker 2: What does a pinch point look like in a place like this, Because I think when your typical hunter here's about a pinch point, they're thinking of like a narrow strip of timber in between two big open crop fields. You're not finding that in the boundary waters. What's what's the pinch point of by you look like? What are you talking about. 00:46:41 Speaker 4: Like a like a dry creek bed or even then active creek bed that is interconnecting. So let's let's just say for the sake of argument that you're hunting muskekes today, right, Well, there's chances are there's probably five or six of them within the general area that you're hunting, and they're all going to be interconnected, and every single one them is going to have a pinch point that feeds water from the highest elevation one to the next one. Those pinch points are like highways for all wildlife, not just deer, and so on my most recent hunt this last November, we seriously just piked a long connection of muskegs, and every single time we could find that really defined pinch point, there's a deer sign. That's not to say that every single connection like network of muskegs is going to have deer, because there's hundreds of thousands of them in the Boundary Waters and Superior National Forest. But I think it's just a good starting point and the likelihood of shooting one in an open area like that is exponentially higher than blast and one in the timber. 00:47:43 Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, that makes sense. And just to clarify, like a muskeg is is basically kind of an open wet landy type patch, right yep. For someone's trying to look for it out there on their own. 00:47:53 Speaker 3: They're actually much easier to hike too. 00:47:55 Speaker 4: When you get a little bit of a frost or a freeze, they can be kind of dangerous to hike in there's sinkholes and stuff like that when it's when it's warm outside, but getting a good first freeze, they're actually extremely navigable. 00:48:08 Speaker 2: Peter, you mentioned earlier the fact that you got to watch out because sometimes you'll find something that looks good and it turns out to be moose country versus whitetail country. Is there any way to discern ahead of time what would be likely moose versus likely whitetail so that you don't make that mistake or is it kind of a crap shoot? 00:48:28 Speaker 6: For me, it's been kind of a crap shoot for the most part. 00:48:31 Speaker 5: Once you get there and you can look at the height of the brows, that's kind of the first deciding factor. I mean, if you're in a moose country and you're you know, a moose rub and a white tail or are pretty distinguishable. You do in the ely area at least get an overlap in certain areas, But when you're looking at our range in the boundary waters, you know, the eastern portion of the wilderness is going to be primarily moose, and when you get to the western portion, you're kind of getting into more white tail country, is what I've noticed. 00:49:04 Speaker 6: Another thing, you can find some open ridges that. 00:49:08 Speaker 5: Have oaks on them, and you always know there's going to be deer there if you can find that, but you can't it's hard to discern that on satellite. 00:49:26 Speaker 2: That is I think a helpful starting point when picking a region. Now, I'm curious about the how we've picked a spot. We've paddled in, we've set up camp somewhere in this region where we've seen a concentration of these features that you mentioned are pretty good. I'm curious about an actual hunt day. You know, when we did it, we would head out early in the morning, go to a spot, find an ambush location, sit it out, like I found an oakridge like you just mentioned. Peter and I sat oak ridges a bunch. Is that what you guys are usually doing. I mean, it kind of sounds that you mentioned hunting pinch points, Matt, But are you usually doing that kind of thing or is there ever a world in which you are actually hunting from the canoe, like just floating lakes and rivers looking for deer on the shoreline. A. I don't know if that's legal or not to do it, but is that a thing that is ever worth considering? Because we talked to someone last week who was floating rivers and could actually, you know, have a rifle floating the river and if they saw a deer while they're floating the river, you know you could make a move on it or anchor and go after the deer. Is that a part of a part of the toolkit and possibility set? 00:50:33 Speaker 3: Matt, Yeah, it's it's legal. 00:50:38 Speaker 4: I in my experience, I haven't seen them relate to lake edges very much, but I have seen deer very actively using crossings on rivers that connect lakes. Really similar to kind of like my pinch point thing with muske exist. You'll have swampy low areas that are connecting to giant lakes, and the deer seem to relate to that. So theoretically, I guess if you're on a rifle hunt, or if you're a crackshot with a bow, you know you could get that opportunity from the canoe. I just it would be very, very very difficult to glass one up, you know, across a lake and get to that deer via canoe, but it is legal. Yeah. 00:51:19 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:51:20 Speaker 1: Uh. 00:51:20 Speaker 2: Do you have any thoughts on that, Peter? 00:51:22 Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd say that I don't really paddle the shoreline to look for white tail necessarily. I'm mostly looking for access, you know, where can I get to that area? I want to hunt as effectively as possible. A lot of the shorelines are really steep here, so looking for an area that's not just you know, thick dead balsam all over the place, that's actually going to be reasonable for you to get up. 00:51:47 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. Is there is there ever a world in which if you were floating somewhere and you saw a deer you can make a move on it successfully. Has that ever happened to you guys? Where? Yeah? I saw a deer when I was heading to a spot and I was able to make a move in some kind of white Peter, or is that just a crap? 00:52:06 Speaker 6: I've never had that experience. Personally. 00:52:08 Speaker 5: If I were to see a nice white tail on the shore line, I would give it a try and a heartbeat, But I've never had that opportunity up here. 00:52:18 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:52:19 Speaker 4: Last September I was going out on a scouting mission technically during the season, but it was unseasonably warm, so I wasn't really worried about hunting. And I saw two bachelor bucks across the river that I was on, and so I docked the canoe, well docked whatever, put it on shore, and pushed through the woods in the general direction that I thought they were heading, and managed to set up probably one hundred and fifty yards from where they were crossing. So had that had been rifle season, you know, that's a little bit more in the conversation, but I think it's doable. But the other part too, is like canoeing takes a little bit of focus, and so the idea of like maintaining your course and not hitting any rocks and spotting a deer and then setting up. 00:53:06 Speaker 3: On it, I think it's pretty challenging. 00:53:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, So what about other hunt techniques or parts to your hunt program? Is there anything else you're doing that has led to success or that you think folks need to do other than get to a good area with some of this terrain and putting a bunch of time in these terrain features. Is there anything else, Matt, that you would recommend folks consider whether it be something like a call or or something else entirely. 00:53:37 Speaker 4: The two bucks that I had possible shots on this year in the boundary waters, we're both called in off brunts, and that was a third week of November, which, you know, I think that I think the rut is a little bit different in big woods and especially Northeast Minnesota is different than farm country in southeast Minnesota. But I think that's a huge thing, especially, you know, like the theme that we keep talking about is you're trying to cover so much land. Calling is one thing that you can do to try and you know, bring them to you. So definitely grunt calling. I rattled a lot during my archery hunts. 00:54:18 Speaker 3: That didn't pay off. The grunt really was the only thing. 00:54:21 Speaker 2: So are you are you blind grunting, Like are you just grunting at a certain time period and hoping something comes in or are you using that grunt only when you see something off from the distance and then you try to bring them. 00:54:31 Speaker 3: In blind grunting every hour? 00:54:36 Speaker 4: Well, to be fair though, really only in areas where I have at least confidence of the existence of deer. 00:54:43 Speaker 3: I don't just like walk through the woods. 00:54:44 Speaker 4: And kind of like elk calling, you know, sure if they're a signed and I'm hunting that spot, I'm blind grunting about every hour. 00:54:51 Speaker 2: Okay, what about you, Peter, I guess number one? Have you had success calling or rattling in areas like this? And then number two? Are there the other hunt technique things or other elements of hunt strategy worth covering? 00:55:05 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's the grunt has been effective for me as far as when I actually see a deer bringing it in. As far as blind calling goes, I like to rattle, but only when I'm hunting on ground level, and you know, I'll just be very aggressive with then, you know, banging branches, try to make it sound as realistic as possible. Still hunting is probably one of my favorite things to do up here, so that's kind of conducive to moving through, you know, especially the ridges up here, moving from point to point. If you have the opportunity to rifle hunt up here and do that still hunting technique, you just really need to be ready to shoot. So I had an experience where I had a chance at a decent buck, but I couldn't find it in my scope fast enough, and ever since then, I switched to a ghost ring site just because you got to be ready to go when you hop onto that ridge, something could be right over the top. Overall, callings seems to be pretty effective. I just try never to overdo it. 00:56:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, what if you shoot one? What if you actually do end up killing a deer deep in a wilderness like this, do you guys skin it, break it down, quarter it, or do you pull that whole sucker down and lay him across the canoe and boat them out? Is one big hole package? What's best practice on that? If we actually get the gold medal? 00:56:45 Speaker 6: Peter, I think that depends on where you killed. 00:56:54 Speaker 5: The one I shot a deer three years ago and I brought that off hole. But one I shot last I just ended up quartering and throwing into game bags and packing it out. So I think you should be ready for either scenario. The amount of portaging you have to do is really what's going to be the deciding on factor what route you should go, because dragging a deer across some of these portages would be an absolutely daunting task. It's hard enough to get your packs and canoe across there, and then you throw in one hundred and eighty pounds crested animal. 00:57:27 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine. Would do you have anything to add on that matt or any other kind of best practices when it comes to, you know, dealing with meat or the deer itself after a successful tagging of tagging of that critter. 00:57:42 Speaker 4: If you do a bear hunt in the Boundary Waters, they send you a bear hunting best practices thing, and I think it applies well to deer. If you don't have the portage a lot, you can buy dry ice outside the Bounty Waters and like small Boundy Waters communities that purpose. And so yeah, if you're not portaging bringing YETI I would say, but only if that hunt is during the warm season, so like a September early October hunt. 00:58:10 Speaker 3: That might be necessary. 00:58:11 Speaker 4: Anytime that I've hunted in the Boundy Waters though it's been sufficiently cold for a I would argue it like a twenty four hour backout, especially if you had like good game bags, keeping them dry, keeping them cool, and actually knowing how to break down an animal to get that heat off of some of those ball joints and stuff like that is imperative. So yeah, that'd be the only other input I have. 00:58:36 Speaker 2: We've picked an area we've executed a hunt plane, We've killed a deer. We had all the proper gear to do it. We had some damn good meals along the way, saw some beautiful stars, maybe the northern lights. We kicked it back, you know, alongside a beautiful lake. We slept in a nice warm tent. It's been an amazing experience. What what have we missed though? What is the element, the idea, the strategy, the thing to prepare that we have not covered that someone needs to know before going. Is there anything that you feel like we haven't touched on that that folks really should be aware of map Maybe since we're still with you. 00:59:19 Speaker 4: Well, I think if you never have spent time in wilderness with the capital W, it can be daunting. So I think people need to do their research as far as first saidan, people need to do their research as far as bear safety and staying bear aware also just like general little hazards and stuff like that. I mean, we haven't really touched much on safety, but when you're in a truly truly remote area in paddling yourself out is your only way getting back to civilization, you really have to think twice about how am I cutting the wood today. How am I staying this deer? And if I make a mistake, what's my route for getting out of here? Do I know my way around? My first aid kit? I think that people get so excited about the hunt that they forget Oh yeah, I'm going into the wilderness and I need to be careful and I need to do it right. Yeah, and probably go with someone for more fun and also just for safety reasons. 01:00:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, very very good point, Peter. What would you add? 01:00:17 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean mad hit the nail right on the head. If you can bring a satellite phone. I always encourage people to do, especially if they plan on doing this by themselves. I steer people away from hatchets. If you have a woodstove, you're definitely gonna need one. But that's the number one cause of injury up here at least. So yeah, just all your footsteps, you know, when you're taking portages and stuff. It doesn't take much to roll an ankle or hurt a knee, So we tell everyone calculated steps, you know, especially when you have all that weight on your shoulders. Those a fall that would be pretty insignificant can be a little bit worse, especially on the rocky range. 01:00:56 Speaker 6: Features we have up here. 01:00:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, I gotta say, Peter, you just made my day because the last time, well not the last time, the first time I was in the boundary waters for my big trip that I've been talking about, I was documented by my buddies on their cell phone apparently being too careful and too dainty with the hatchet, trying to make sure that I didn't trying to make sure I didn't hurt myself because I was aware of what you're discussing, that it can be dangerous since I was being properly careful, and they videoed me looking like, you know, looking a little less manly than I'd like to be. And still to this day they send me this video to shame me. So thank you for validating my concern and care and proper safety protocol. I will be pointing them to this podcast forever from this point on. 01:01:44 Speaker 5: Yeah, Nope, Like I've seen it personally what a hatchet can do to a hand. So yeah, I'm the same way. Man, I just put I put my hatchet on top of what I'm cutting, and then I'll actually hit that hatchet with another log typically just to be super careful. 01:01:58 Speaker 6: You know. 01:01:58 Speaker 5: It's we've We've seen people put them in their shins and all sorts of stuff. 01:02:02 Speaker 2: It's yeah, no good, no good, I think all right. Well, speaking of no good and speaking of that first trip, when I made my first trip to the Bounder Waters, it was originally inspired because I kept hearing about the region from folks like the organization that you're part of, Matt, Sportsman for the Boundary Waters and backcountry hunters and anglers and all these folks talking about how special the Boundary Waters were, and then also how potentially threatened they were by a proposed mind right on the border. Since then, you know, it's been I don't know how many years, maybe seven years or five years or something like that. Since that first trip of mine, A lot's changed. There's been some updates, and then I think there's also some possible updates coming down the line. Can you give us just a quick update, Matt on where things stand with the Twin Metals mind proposal there alongside the Boundary Waters. You know, what's happened and what do we need to keep an EyeT in the future. 01:03:05 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. 01:03:06 Speaker 4: So, Like you said, I work with an organization called Sportsman for the Boundary Waters, and our whole thing has just been protecting the boundary waters for future generations of hunters, anglers and paddlers. It really is such a magnificent and unique place, right It's unlike any other place in the Lower forty eight and so we want to do everything we can to protect that. And like you said, the company Twin Metals, which is a subsidiary of a Chilean mining company called Antifagasta, has had a proposal for a copper nickel mine on the shores or near the shores of Birch. 01:03:38 Speaker 3: Lake, which is just outside the boundary waters. 01:03:42 Speaker 4: Birch Lake is connected to the Boundary Waters by the South Wishwy River, which through i think two More Lakes, is directly in the boundary waters. And so that type of mining has a pretty long track record of environmental degradation and issue acid mind drainage. 01:04:01 Speaker 6: What have you. 01:04:02 Speaker 3: And so. 01:04:04 Speaker 4: In the last few years that the project isn't going anywhere at least right now it's Twin Metals is alive and well. 01:04:11 Speaker 3: They are still set up shop. 01:04:13 Speaker 4: In Ely, Minnesota, still trying to get their their permits through. During the Biden administration, Interior Secretary deb Holland created a twenty year moratorium on that type of mining in the Rainy River Watershed, and that is where it's at biggest tributary to the Boundary waters region. That currently, as we're talking, that moratorium is still in place, so you cannot do nonfers mining in the Rainy River Watershed. That being said, there are some very specific intentions to remove that moratorium as soon as possible. Some of the ways that we're kind of looking at right now would be through legisl We're expecting a repeat bill to come from Representative Pete Staubert, who's my representative up in northeast Minnesota. It's called the Superior National Force Restoration Act, which sounds great, but it would yeah, sounds lovely. It would undo the moratorium, it would give the leases back to Twin Metals, it would expedite the environmental review process, and it would take away judicial ability for people to argue that it was unlawfully given to these companies. So we're definitely encouraging people to keep an eye out for that bill. It hasn't been introduced yet in the one hundred and nineteenth Congress, but surely it will. A kind of piece of good news is that HR five eight eight was introduced this session, and that is a bill that would actually create permanent protections for the Rainy River watershed. That was introduced by Congresswoman deb excuse me, Betty McCollum. And so once that is jacketed and making its way through Congress, we'd really love to see people support that bill as much as possible. 01:06:15 Speaker 3: Again, that's Hr five eight eight. 01:06:19 Speaker 4: That will be obviously a huge step in the right direction as far as permanently protecting the boundary waters from nonferrist mining. And then the last thing that we're really trying to tell people to keep an eye out for is executive orders or just any kind of like federal power to try and push this thing forward. 01:06:37 Speaker 3: And you know, if I can encourage people to just pay attention. 01:06:41 Speaker 4: Right there's so much chaos right now with new administration, and we're concerned about this or this is going great and this and that, but things get lost in that chaos, and so take the time. 01:06:53 Speaker 3: You know, if there's an executive order and you. 01:06:54 Speaker 4: Don't understand what it is, take some time out of your day read it. Because there have been some relatively align things with significant conservation implications as of late that we're looking at. 01:07:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you bring up a great point, which is there's a lot going on right now. It's hard to keep track of it all. It's hard to understand how it's going to impact hunters and anglers and wildlife and wild places. I know, one of the best ways to filter all this is to join an organization or sign up for a newsletter from an organization that can help get you the right information at the right times and help you understand it. Obviously, Sportsman for the Boundary Waters is the organization if you care about this place or this kind of adventure in that region, can you plug the organization just a little bit more tell folks how they can learn more and get involved. 01:07:44 Speaker 6: Yeah. 01:07:44 Speaker 4: So, Sportsman for the Boundary Waters founded in twenty fifteen. Our website is sportsman BWCA dot org. On there you're going to find everything from legislation's breakdown to more information about mining, and then also like avenues for you to go do more research, you know, which I encourage everyone to do. But then also like we can talk about all the scary stuff that is going on around the Boundary Waters, but we also celebrate the Boundary Waters and how incredible of the place it is, and it's hard to get people to care about a cause without first recognizing the value of that place. And so I mean, yeah, we've got everything from like fishing and hunting blogs and stories from the back country and stuff like that. And so it's been a great honor to work with sports for the Boundary Waters where we ride that balance of celebrating how incredible the Boundary Waters is, but then also this is what you need to know, this is what's coming down a pipe, keeping people abreast to those things. 01:08:43 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like you said, it's so it's so much I don't want to say easier, but maybe I'm going about this then the wrong way. When you experience something yourself, when you have seen it with your own eyes, felt it with your own hands, breathed in that area, had that place impact you, it becomes so much more likely that you're going to take action to take care of it and do something about it. So if someone hears this conversation, they're inspired to check it out. They're intrigued about why there's so many people who care about it. Peter, Boundary Waters Outfitters might be someone they can reach out to possibly plan a trip. 01:09:24 Speaker 5: Right Yeah, we're a full service outfitter operate summer, fall, winter, whether you want to do fishing, grouse hunting, deer hunting, ice fishing, pretty much whatever you want. Our website is Boundary Watersoutfitters dot com and yeah, check us out. 01:09:43 Speaker 2: Awesome, Well, Jim, I really appreciate it. You've got me once again wanting to head north up to canoe Country and get one of these adventures on my schedule as well. So thanks for doing that, and thanks for doing this chat. 01:09:59 Speaker 3: Thanks Mark. 01:10:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks Park, and that's going to do it for us today. Thank you for joining me, Hope, this one got you excited to get out there, hit the water and chase some white tails of the canoe do something a little bit new this year and have a lot of fun doing it. So thank you for joining me, and until next time, stay wired to Hunt.