00:00:01 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to the whitetail Woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. 00:00:19 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on the show, we are wrapping up our series exploring the habits, mindsets, methods and routines of the best deer hunters in the world. And today our final guest is Andy May. All right, welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their Camel for Conservation initiative and their brand new, totally reinvented line of white tail gear that just launched last week. I'll give you a little bit more details on that if you didn't hear last week's episode, But before that, I do want to kind of queue up today's episode because, as I mentioned at the top, we are wrapping up our mindsets of the Whitetail Masters series. This is episode six of that mini series, I believe, and I hope you found it as interesting and valuable as I have. The goal with all this was to get a different look, to get a different perspective on these best of the best deer hunters, because here's one of the things I've noticed, one of the things I've noticed over the last ten plus years doing this podcast is that it's very easy to fall into a rut when it comes to deer hunting and just kind of doing the same old, same old thing. You find what's comfortable and you fall into that groove and you stick with it. And that's true not only in deer hunting, but also in creating content about deer hunt trying to teach people about deer hunting. There's a lot of folks doing the same old thing over and over and over and over again, and sometimes it's hard to avoid that for myself too. So I'm constantly trying to find different ways to approach this topic, different ways we can learn. And when it comes to some of these guests, you know, there are a lot of great deer hunters out there, but everybody is talking to them, right There's a thousand different podcasts and TV shows and Instagram accounts, and everyone's talking to the same people, getting the same information told and regurgitated over and over and over. So one of my main goals what I task myself as the host of this show and trying to be someone creating something valuable and respectful of your time. Is finding a new lens to look at this stuff with. And that's what I've tried to do with this series, to talk to these hunters that we've all heard from before, but to dig into a different side of their success than other people have. So we've tried to peel back the onion. We've tried to get behind the scenes inside their minds to understand what their goals are, why they think about success in a certain way, how they view failure, how they think about hard work and mental toughness and discipline and decision making, and how they execute on those things, how they actually take action, you know, how that manifests in their hunting lives. And I think we've achieved a lot of what I was hoping to. I think there's a lot more I'd still like to get out of this kind of conversation, and maybe we'll revisit this series in the future with other people. But I guess a few things stand out for me that I want to I guess leave us with here before we you know, kind of go into our final chat with Andy May, who I guess I should mention is our guest today. He probably goes without need for introduction. He's been on this show many times in the past, He's been with us for almost a decade now. He's, of course one of the very best deer hunters out there, So when I look up to and respect and admire both as a deer hunter and as a friend, he's just a great guy all the way around. And he seemed like a perfect person to wrap this show or this series up with, because he brings an everyman perspective. He doesn't do this kind of thing full time. He has a regular, full time job, he has a family, he has other obligations, and still he manages to have incredible hunting success. So how does he do that? How does he bucket hunting within his life? How does he compartmentalize the different parts of his life in such a way that he can give the necessary energy to hunting but also the necessary focus and energy to his family and to his regular job and all these different things We cover all that. This is absolutely one of our best chats that we've had in the whole series. So I'm glad that we end with this because we're ending on a high note. But with that said, and I think some of my conversation with Andy helped crystallize some of what I'm about to tell you, and a few things stand up out for me. Number one, they would probably be three or four big consistent traits that I think have applied to everyone we've talked to in this series. Right, kind of intangible things, but are very very important. I think across the board, every single one of these best of the best folks who talk to and I think this would apply to just about anybody else we could pull in from the hunting world who achieves phenomenal success. They all have incredible drive, just tremendous drive to do this. They are very highly internally motivated to achieve whatever their goals are when it comes to deer hunting. And all of them have proven that time and time again and have had to make sacrifices and have had to make choices within their life to be able to prioritize this drive that they have for deer hunting. So Number one, incredible drive and they have made sacrifices to be able to execute on that drive for good and bed Number two, they are all independent thinkers. This is something that dan Enfel pointed out explicitly himself, But I think all of them have taken a lead, not follow approach to deer hunting. They certainly learned from other people along the way, but they did not let that be the end of their hunting education. They supplemented what they learned from other people with hours and hours, days and days and weeks and months and years and thousands of hours in the field to learn these lessons themselves. The only way you can really become an absolutely best of the best elite deer hunter is to be in the field a lot, learning things the hard way. And if you do that, and if you allow yourself to try new things, to fail, to try again, to learn to adjust, and never get stuck in any one way, never get stuck with just one person's approach and just doing everything they do. If you do that, you then have the opportunity to create your own style, to create your own hunting approach. And these elite deer hunters have done that. They are independent thinkers. They pulled all these different ideas from all across the hunting world into their own world and then made something unique and then learned to do that very well. Number three. I think every one of these folks is incredibly disciplined, you know, in different ways, but all of them make a set of goals tasks that they need to do certain things throughout the off season, leading up to the year, certain things in the season, and they stick to it. They say they're going to do something and they do it right. They don't cut corners, they don't write out a to do list and then skip a bunch of things. They execute. They check every box, they dot every eye, they cross every teeth, They do all the little things right. They are disciplined, they stick to their guns, they do what needs to be done, and they don't make excuses. Very important. Number three, and I think this goes back to number one to a degree, but they all have largely have a very single minded focus. They're very focused on whitetail deer, and they have made a choice to focus intensely on this one thing and have sacrificed other things to allow for that. This came up over and over and over again. Other than you know, maybe Tony who said he doesn't do this as much anymore, but everyone else pretty much said, I don't have other hobbies. I don't do other things. I don't go boating, I don't go ATVing, I don't go fishing. I don't do this thing or that thing. I just focus on white tails. I think about white tails all the time. This is what I've poured my blood, sweat and tears into. I've given my all to this, and some people have said, you know, sometimes to the detriment of other things that maybe are very important in their lives. And I think that brings me to my final point, and a really important one, I think, which is that as I've thought about this, as I've listened to all these people and thought about what they've shared with us, and I recognize and I want to make sure I make it very clear. I admire every one of them. I admire their success. I admire their drive and their focus and the results they have as deer hunters. And I appreciate the way they've helped so many of us learn through their experiences and what they've shared. But I've also come to find that maybe I don't want the same things, and maybe you don't either, Because I think it's very important to point out that everything they say they are doing and have done and will do and the way they prioritize their life and the way they focus on certain things and taking time energy away from other things. We each have our own personal decisions about how we want to prioritize our lives, how we want to delegate our energy and our time. But you don't need to do what these guys are doing. You don't need to chase the same goals that they are. You don't need to be Dan infalt Ro, Anja Dequisto, or Andy May or anybody else. I think it's very important that we be careful not to look at these folks in the hunting media who are incredible hunters and who I respect and admire and I'm impressed by. But we don't need to be that. We don't all need to kill five or six bucks a year. We don't need to have Andy May level success, and it's okay if you don't. Right, we need to remember that we are hunting our own hunts, and yeah, we want to get better, Yeah we want to work hard, Yeah we want to be the best we can be, but we also want to have fun and maybe you know, at least in my case, I also want to be able to spend a lot of time with my kids in the woods, and that means I'm not going to kill as many big deer. And I also want to spend a lot of time in the spring and summer camping and hiking and fishing and doing things that are taking time away from my ability to kill deer or prepare to kill deer. So no, I'm probably not going to kill four or five or six giant deer a year. I'm probably not going to kill owners every year like Ben Rising. I'm not going to have as many record book bucks as John Eberhart. I'm not going to put down the number of deer that Andy May does every year. And that's okay, and it's okay for you too. Whatever your goal is, whatever your number is, whatever it is you're chasing, it doesn't have to be like me, doesn't have to be like Andy, doesn't have to be like Tony or Ben or Andre or Dan or anybody else. Hunt for you, hunt for the reasons that fill your cup, that satisfy you, that fulfill you, and pick and choose and learn from these different lessons we've had here throughout this series and all my other episodes over the course of this podcast. But think about a really key thing that all these guys have said. To have the level of success they've had, and whether they've said it's explicitly or not, it comes through they have all had to make tremendous sacrifices. And think carefully if you want to make the same sacrifices yourself. Are big deer or a lot of deer on the wall worth missing family get togethers or your son or daughter's soccer game, or an anniversary dinner with your wife or whatever it might be. 00:12:17 Speaker 3: Is it worth it? 00:12:18 Speaker 2: Because a lot of guys chasing this thing miss those events, or even if they're there physically, they might not be there mentally. Ben Rising talked about that being a problem he's recognizing himself. Is that how you want to do this? Is the boon and crocket buck Worth spacing out during your kid's piano recital is obsessing over killing three mature deer this year and checking this box and checking that box and checking this box. Is it really worth it? If you're miserable half the time, if you're stressed all fall, if you are grinding yourself to a pulp, I don't know. Maybe it is. And if it is more power to you chase that dream. If that's what does it for you, if that is your number one priority, then absolutely go for it. We're seeing with these conversations that that kind of focus is what's necessary to have that tippy top of the pyramid success. But I don't want anyone to think that that is necessary if you have different goals, because if chasing whitetailed deer leads to you missing out on things with your family, or your faith, or your community, or balance in your life, actual happiness in your life, then we are going down the wrong path. And I worry that there's a lot of that happening in our community. And so I think we can learn a ton of positive things from these six folks we've talked to this week or this past six weeks, and it's incredible, great stuff. But I also want us to all take a little bit of time here to think about whether or not this is the right path for us as individuals, and be honest about that, both with the sacrifices required if you want that, and also being honest with ourselves about what it is we actually want to get out of this and knowingly, Kay, if I don't want that kind of lifestyle, because I do want balance or or more family time or more fishing time or anything like that. That is okay, But then don't compare yourself to how Andy or Ben is doing on Instagram. Right. We talked about this with I can't remember who it was earlier this month. But comparison is the thief of joy. We have to stop comparing ourselves to every other hunter we see on social media or TV or in the Facebook group or whatever it is. We have to enjoy our community, build each other up, enjoy each other's success, but then have a very narrow focus when it comes to what we are doing, because nobody really cares whether you kill a deer or not. Nobody is paying attention, Nobody understands what it takes for you personally, whatever sacrifices it might be, whatever energy it takes, that's that's a youth thing, and it should be a youth thing. And so don't let anybody else's choices, sacrifices, goals success, Do not let that influence how you hunt deer, how you you know, derive satisfaction out of this thing. Because hunting and fishing and doing these things in the natural world, it is such an incredible blessing. It's such an incredible privilege it is. It is tapping into one of the most human part I mean, just one of the most core things of what it means to be human. And it's a really special thing in today's modern era that we still can do that. Don't tarnish that. Don't that by doing it for the wrong reasons or letting outside pressures ruin the joy of it in your own life, and certainly don't let that ruin other parts of your life. Then in the long run, when you're sitting on your deathbed, you'll recognize are so much more important. You're not going to be sitting there at eighty five, laying in the hospital bed wishing you'd put one more booner on the wall. But if you've got a wall full of big deer, but you didn't spend time with your kids, or your wife, or with your community members or doing things that really truly do matter in the long run, then you might really have some regrets. So I hope that we can come out of this series with lots of lesson learned, lots of ideas and ways we can become better deer hunters. Absolutely, but I think it would be a missed opportunity if we also didn't each take some time ourselves to think about if we're chasing the right thing and if we're okay with the sacrifice that we are making in order to chase those goals. So that's where my head's at. After all of this, I think, without any further ado, I will leave you with two very quick updates, kind of some house cleaning, and then we'll get to our chat with Andy May. House cleaning point. I can't say cleaning. House cleaning is what I'm trying to say. House cleaning point number one. As a reminder, we mentioned this last week. First Light has just launched. They're all new line of white tail hunting gear. I have been extensively involved in the design and testing process. So was Tony Peterson, Andy May was as well, Levi Morgan. A whole bunch of folks spent a lot of time trying this gear, testing this gear, sitting in zoom meetings and real in person meetings, spitballing about what we want, what we need, what we've miss been missing in the past. And the outcome is this set of gear. So highly recommend you check out over at first light dot com. House clean point. Number two is the Whitetail Edu series continues. These are the educational videos that Tony and I have been putting out every week over on the meet Either Clips YouTube channel. Head on over there check those out. We've had episodes about scrapes and rubs and deer droppings and tracks and all sorts of stuff like that. So lots more foundational whitetail education over there at the Meat Either Clips YouTube channel, so check that out. Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoy this final episode of our mindsets of the Whitetail Master series. And now here's mister Andy May all right with me back on the show is a many time repeat guest and a good friend, mister Anime. 00:18:53 Speaker 3: I do it, man, I'm doing great, Mark. Yes, it seems like it's been a little while. I was just I reached out to you thought maybe we could hop on one after the season. You know, I kind of like to do those season recaps, and you came up with this idea. This is pretty cool. I listened to one with Andre Dquisto the other day and it was pretty good. I like it. 00:19:16 Speaker 2: Well, thanks, man, I appreciate you. Always appreciate you making time for this. Folks obviously have been learning a lot from you over the years since since we've started having these podcast conversations and others that you've had. And as you know, the idea with this series has been to chat with the people who I look at as some of the very best of the best whitetail hunters out there to try to better understand, you know, what's going on behind the scenes. You know, what's going on in their mind when they're thinking through their plans for the season, or their plans for the day, or dealing with struggles and challenges and adversity, and understanding how they think about the building blocks of their success. And and even though I know over the years you have resisted the title of like a white tail expert or anything, that you're stuck with it and uh. And so you're stuck with the burden of helping us all understand how you do it and uh. And That's what I'm hoping we can do here today. So are you are you game to kind of open up like the hood of your brain and let us see inside for a little bit. 00:20:26 Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah, I love I love this because I am kind of fascinated too. About you know, different hunters that you know I admire, and how their brain works and and how they've gotten to where they're at. So this is right up my alley. I I kind of do the same on my own when I you know, talk to guys and and befriend guys and get to know them and and I really like to learn how they tick and what motivates them and just how they how they get it done so cansistently and and and continue to do that, you know, year after year after year. And it's interesting because the guys that that do it, they're there are unique individuals and there's they all have their own strengths, you know, and weaknesses. So yeah, this should be fun. I'm not even sure, uh you know, how I'm gonna answer yet, but we'll just we'll just see how it goes off the cuff. 00:21:23 Speaker 2: That's perfect. See you mentioned motivations, which is which is perfect because that's kind of the first thing that I like to kind of broach with people's is getting a first look at why they are the way they are, those motivations. So the first thing I want to hear from you, Andy, is how do you look at success? How do you define success as a deer hunter. 00:21:42 Speaker 3: Today today, you know, it's it's probably changed and evolved over the years. Certainly, certainly at some point the success is is harvesting an animal. I mean that is why I personally one of the one of the reasons is I put in so much time is to actually get the job done. You know, during the season. It doesn't mean you know, killing two or three or four or five or six. It doesn't mean that. But like, certainly there is some component of that. Being successful is actually going out and achieving the goal that you said of harvesting an animal that you know that you're trying to get. But like, as I've gotten older, you know, I've went through periods where, uh, you know, maybe I got so obsessed or so focused on one thing. I made hunting a little more stressful that I'm on it. It wasn't as fun, and I think hunting should be fun. I mean, we love this, right, we absolutely love this. We live for hunting season. And to go through a hunting season where you're frustrated and wanting to quit and you're you know, you're not the best you can be at home as a father and as a husband, like that sucks and I've been there, so having fun I think, you know, I would define that having fun in a season is that's having success. Like you did what you love, you had a great time doing it. And for me personally, just new experiences. I am all about trying things new, going to new places, challenging myself in new types of terrain, new states, new species. I would say those three things, and of course I go there and I want to get something. But if I don't get something on a trip, I don't look at that as unsuccessful. I look at that as especially if I'm going to a new like I took step one into learning this new thing, this new species, this new state, this new type of terrain, this new tactic, and then I know, just because I've been able to do it. When I go out there again and I learned from my mistakes and I improve a little bit, eventually the success comes. But if I were to go a whole season and not kill anything, like not have an opportunity, or maybe I screw up my opportunities, there would be a part of me that would feel like I was unsuccessful, at least a part of it, you know. So yeah, it's it's kind of a long drawn out answer, But I would say all those things have fun, new experiences, challenging yourself, and then ultimately, yeah, I'd like to wrap my tag around something. 00:25:00 Speaker 2: So elaborate on that last part though you mentioned you talked about, you know, if you didn't kill anything in the whole season. Can you describe a little bit more around your thoughts on failure? You know what other examples of failure there might be. What's something that would happen you would truly view as like, man, that was that was really dropping the ball? Is there anything else other than just a season with zero tags filled in? What you would call it a true failure? 00:25:26 Speaker 3: Well? Well, yeah, like for one, kind of what I mentioned, If I go through a season where I felt like I didn't have fun, I came out a worse person. I'm a worst person at home, I'm frustrated, I'm stressed out. That's your failing. You know, something's wrong there. You're putting too much emphasis on it, or you're not able to separate the highs and lows of you know, bow hunting with family life. I've gotten really good at that now, Like I can you know, I have a really bad hunt where I screw up and blow it, and I can just kind of let it roll off my back. I'm home, and yeah, I mean it's eaten me a little bit, but uh, you know, I'm able to still function and be a be a good person. Another thing for me that that I definitely feel like I've failed is when I screw up an opportunity. When I make the error. That doesn't necessarily mean you know, sitting in the wrong spot. It means, you know, I have my opportunity and I blow it. I wound the deer, I miss the deer. I make a stupid error like I'm not paying attention, or i'm you know, I'm moving and the buck I want comes in and sees me, or I'm on my phone, you know, and I lose my opportunity. Those are those are failures, you know, Those are those are things that are like God, like what an idiot? You know, Like I work so hard and you know how hard that opportunity is and then you blow it like that. You know, that's that's a tough pill to swallow. I can even handle missing a deer. You know, I've talked to you about this, Like if as long as I execute a good shot, like if I don't punch the trigger and I don't rush, and I stay on it and I pull pull pull, or I execute a good shot and then something bad happens. I'm able to live with that because I feel like I did my part. The animal drop, the animal moved, maybe I hit something I didn't see. But if I like kind of lose my cool I punched the trigger, I get so nervous, or I rushed the shot, I wasn't able to call myself down. That's on me. And now I wounded that animal or I missed that animal. I blew that opportunity because I screwed up so that I can't stand for and I still do it once in a while. It is bow hunting. I know it's a part of bow hunting, but it never gets any easier. Another thing that I think would be a failure is like quitting, you know, on a hunt. You know, like I've there's been there's been a couple of hunts and swear maybe they were tough, or maybe things were going on at home, you know that weren't like perfect. You get frustrated, you get your butt beat, and then like the next two days or eighty five degrees and you're like, I should just you know, I'll just go home, you know, just cut my losses. I've done that once or twice, and you get about an hour down the road and you feel kind of like a piece of crap, you know, like you're like, I just I literally just quit. You know. It's one thing if there's an emergency at home, that's different. But I'm talking like you're giving up or a season, you're having a tough season, and you just hang it up. You know. You maybe you set some goals and you're not reaching them, it doesn't feel like you're going to reach them, and you just quit. To me, that would be a failure for me if I did that, So I don't do that anymore. I've done that a couple of times early on, even on a couple of hunts far from home, you know, just like left a day early for no real reason other than it was a tough hun or it was hot and the weather wasn't right, or I screwed up. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you know there was one actually one comes to mind that, you know, that hunt we did in Nebraska. Remember I was having that nerve pain in my back. You remember that I had a whole nother day to hunt, but if you remember correctly, I had you know, I had that opportunity at a very nice buck, and I had forgotten my range finder. He's certainly in range, and you know, I made a big time blunder. You know. I literally grabbed my stuff out of your truck. I start walking down the two track and I'm like, you know, binoculars, range finder. I turn around, I see you bombing over the hill and I'm like, oh no, you know, but you know how far we were away from camp. And I get my chance and I blew it. There's an error there, and I kind of set, you know, let the wind out of my sails. I was dealing with some crazy back nerve pain. I just quit on that hunt. I quit. I was like, you know, you know stuff. I was dealing with some stuff at home with my you know, my daughter, and it's like, let's just go, you know. And I look back at that one and maybe one or two other ones, it's like I quit. You know. Yeah, I was in a lot of pain, but like I'm tougher than that, you know, I can. I can grind it out. So those things to me. For me would be failure, not having fun, screwing up your opportunity, making like making dumb errors. I try to give myself a little grace there because bow hunting is hard. But when I actually screw something up, I wasn't paying attention, or I make a bad shot because of something I did wrong. You know, those are the tough ones. Those are the ones where I just feel like God, you know you can't be doing this. You're better than that. You're a veteran at this. These are not the mistakes you should be making. 00:30:59 Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned one thing being a failure being to bring that negativity home, right, So, so you make a mistake or things aren't going well in the woods and then you bring it home. And how how it's hard sometimes to separate the in the field stuff from the home stuff. But you said you've gotten better at that, and I have to ask, because I've struggled with this too. You know, how have you gotten better at that? Is there any anything specifically that has helped you to be able to leave what's in the woods in the woods and then be able to be fully present with your family or at home and not bring that negativity into the home. Atmosphere. Has there been anything that's helped you do that? 00:31:43 Speaker 3: Probably just experience and seeing how it negatively affects my loved ones when I do that. You know, if I you know, I maybe I miss a deer or you know, I wound a buck or something, and I come home and I'm grumpy, and I'm not talking in anybody, and I'm stressed out, and I'm like, you know, that was my chance. And you know, it's like these people didn't do anything, you know, and and here I am supposed to be the leader of this family, and and and I'm bringing that negativity home. I've just realized over the years that like I love hunting, I am I'm a hunter. It's part of what I am, but it's a small part. I'm a I'm a father, I'm a partner, I'm a husband, and those things are just more important to me. You know. It's it's and I've seen it negatively affect them, and then it causes stress in the relationship. It causes stress between you know, father and daughter, and you know, I just don't want to let that time be affected and slip. I think too. I've learned that over the years, like I'm going to get another opportunity, you know, I I I I've made mistakes. I've worked so hard at eliminating mistakes. I mean, I train my body, I train my mind, I shoot, I scout, I do I do everything as far as preparation that I can think of that will help me be successful. And I still fail sometimes. And it's okay. You know, bowhunting is hard, and I've learned that these mistakes are going to come. When I make them, I'm going to do everything I can to correct them. When something bad happens out there that was out of my control, I just let it go, you know, I just let it go. I'm going to have more opportunities down the road. I'm not going to bring that home. I'm not going to affect my loved ones like that. So I think over time, you know, you realize that it's not the end of the world. It would be the end of the world. If your wife leaves you, it would be the end of the world. If your daughter feels like you weren't there for her, you know, or you know, she moves off to college and you're like, what was I doing? You know, like why was I spending that much time? Or obsessing about it that much that it made me not be present or made her feel like I wasn't there for her. To me, that would be the end of the world, Like that would be something that would hang with me the rest of my life. So I don't know. I've just realized that partially just from my own mistakes, listening to other guys, other really good hunters that we know that admit that that's what they chose to do, you know, throughout their career, and a lot of them regret it. So if anything, I hope people see me and realize, like, yeah, maybe you're maybe you won't be you know, at that what some consider that elite level, But you can still have a lot of success. You can still have a lot of fun, you can still kill a lot of animals and have a lot of experiences and still be a good husband, still be a good dad. Do the extra things while you're there, be extra present while you're there. It's important that I'm there, but it's also important that you know. Sienna and Lisa, they I want them to see that I have a passion. I want them to see that I have something that drives me. It makes me a better person. It gives me direction, It gives me something that makes me want to work out more, It makes me want to be outside more. It makes me a better person when I come home and they my daughter sees me go out every day. She sees me go to the gym every day, and she sees me go out and shoot my bow just about every day. And you know, maybe she's not going to be a hunter, but maybe she's going to be something else and she you know, or maybe it's her career and she's gonna be like you know, that's why Dad was good at that, because he devoted so much time. And I feel like, yeah, this is this is pretty much all I do. And certainly it can seem, you know, obsessive, but I try my best to pick out little windows when to work on these things and just prioritize, you know, the family and make sure everything there is is handled and solid, and if it's not, I'll put in more time in that less time in the preparation and tell tell things even out and I find that good equilibrium. So I think it just takes time, obviously, communicating with your family, making sure everybody is is uh is good to go, and kind of understands you know, what what your plans are. But yeah, it's it's hard, you know, and I find myself self correcting, you know, every year. I've learned to just kind of anticipate that before it gets to like a boiling point. But I don't know, I I try to emphasize that because I've I've seen guys, guys I know that have just like you know, ruin their marriage or ruin their relationship with their kids, are missed out on all those opportunities when they were little, And I don't know, it's just not for me. Makes me sad. 00:37:08 Speaker 2: So hees not worth it. It's just not worth it. So so one more question on failure, and this will be a little bit different than I'm curious about your favorite failure or the most useful failure or the failure or the mistake that you made that coming out of that you learned something that changed your trajectory moving forward. Is there anything that comes to mind over the years that, man, you really screwed it up, But man, you'll learn from that one and it made all the difference. 00:37:43 Speaker 3: So yeah, you know, coming out of that season, just feeling about as low as I can feel as a boat hunter. I decided that I was going to do whatever it took to fix it. And I realized I was dealing with some target panic. I had done some research, so I started, you know, talking to the right people, reaching out to guys that were more skilled as me as an archer, and really learned what target panic was and how to beat it. So you and I have talked about that a lot. I'm not going to dive deep into that, but I did the work all off season, just pounded away, learning a whole different shot execution, a different way to wire your brain during the shot change releases up, and I was shooting better than I ever had, with no anticipation, with no panic, and everything was going phenomenal. In fact, I was going into that next season twenty thirteen, with like a lot of confidence. And for some reason, I don't know why I did this. I was going to Maryland for an early season hunt, and like two days before I left, I hadn't punched the trigger or had any issues. About two days before I left, I decided to like go back to my old release, just because I was using a Hinge release and to help me get past the target panic. And I just felt like I just feel more comfortable hunting with an index finger. So I went to Maryland. I went on that trip, and sure enough, I get a chance at a big buck and I do the same exact thing, and I just punched that trigger and miss him. So I threw that release away. Right after that, I was just absolutely disgusted with myself. Went back to the drawing board as far as like the drills that you and I have you know, talked about, and switched to basically using a thumb button or hinge and just executing a shot in a completely different way. And I never had that issue again. To this day, I've still never had target panic. I mean a little an anticipation will sometimes come in, but I never changed the way execute a shot. I never punched the trigger. But to this day, I still continue with those same drills just to make sure that I'm I'm staying ahead of it. I realized it was an issue for me, but that made such a huge impact on my enjoyment for archery. My my shots on animals before, which were very marginal, even though I was getting most of them. Now I was getting a many more good shots with short track jobs. You know, just what you want you know, putting that animal down quickly so that they don't have to suffer, and just just getting it done in a much cleaner, more ethical way. So that that was probably that that stands out to me the most as having the biggest impact because it was impacting me in such a negative way. I was able to get on deer, I was able to put myself in front of deer, and that was like, that was kind of a slow progression. There was never one big change whereas like all all of a sudden, I was shooting big Bucks. Now it was a I had to climb the ladder. You know, I was I was young, and I was persistent, and I was hard working, and I was able to get maybe a shot or maybe two shots at a nice buck in a whole season, and just the way my brain works, you know, learning and constantly trying to improve, you know, I just slowly claimed that climbed that ladder of you know, maybe getting two or three shots or three or four shots. And then it was from like two year old bucks to two and three year old bucks and then three and four year old bucks and then so on. So there were certainly things tactics that made a change and helped me grow as a hunter and kind of increase that skill. But that you know, mastering that shot execution under high pressure is what made the most impact and is certainly put the most animals on the ground for me. 00:42:18 Speaker 2: So one of the things that I was going to ask you about was was about your process for getting better at something, and you kind of just gave us a perfect example there of how to get better at your shot sequence. So it sounded like some of the things you did were first like identify the problem, like identify the thing you have to work on. Number two, it seemed like you then went back to the drawing board and said, Okay, who can I seek out? Who has more information about this, who is better at this, who's been through this? You scoured for other sources of you know, resources to help you. And then three you just you just worked at and worked at and worked at. It is that three part process the process that you take to get better at something within the deer hunting world or did I miss a step there? Or is there anything else you would add to that if you were trying to tell someone like man, this is how I address a problem or address a week area. 00:43:11 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think that's it. I think you said it. You know, you have first have to admit that you have that problem or that weakness. I go back to what you and I have talked about a few times, like there were there were periods where I was, you know, very successful in the pre rut and rut, but like late season in early season, you know, I would have very intermittent success. It just wasn't that much. I wasn't shooting mature animals in that timeframe nearly as much. And I think that could be said for most of the hunters out there. But I saw people doing it, you know, And whenever I see someone doing something that I can't do or that I'm not doing in the bow hunting world, I take interest in that very very closely. And one because I the way my mindset is is I want to constantly be better. I want to constantly improve as a bow hunter. I have no interest in like setting myself up with a scenario, you know, maybe like a farm or a tactic or a style and then just kind of riding that out, you know, and just filling a wall full of big bucks like that doesn't really interest me. It doesn't motivate me. But getting better at something when you think you're not good at it. That motivates me very much. So when I see guys like Jesse Coots, you know, who's killing his target book on the first day of the season four years in a row or whatever it was, I'm like, what, like how, you know, like so and here I am, you know, hunting every opening day for you know, fifteen seventeen years and I have maybe a couple of bucks under my belt early season, you know. So, Yeah, I sought out the who in my mind was the expert or the person that was doing it at such an elite level, and learned everything I could from them, and then I implemented that, you know, then I put in that work that he was doing to be so successful at that time. Same thing with you know, with ground hunting. You know, I always did a bit of ground hunting when I thought the situation called for it, but I was never like super confident in it. I got busted a lot. I always felt better up in a tree. I mean, you're looking at you're watching the TV. Guys up in the tree, You're watching, you know, reading North American White Tails talking about tree stand placement. It really wasn't a thing. And then you see all of a sudden, you see guys that are doing it at a high level, like a Jared Scheffler or something. It's like, wait, that guy has skills that I don't have, you know, so that makes me. That inspires me, and that kind of revamps my motivation in bowhunting to like master that versatility, that being able to apply all sorts of tactics when the situation is right and you can keep going further down the line. Like, yeah, I was good in farm and marsh and swamps and river bottoms, but like you put me in the big woods in the hills, I kind of felt lost. Even though I could still get on deer. I was like I kind of didn't feel like I had that confidence. And so, you know, I start talking to guys that that's their bread and butter, you know, and the guys that get it done in that scenario, and then I put myself in that scenario to really learn it and to really get effective at it, you know, in multiple types of terrain, multiple states, multiple types of habitat, multiple tactics, and it's just you know, it's kind of evolved into this like versatile style where I feel very confident, whether it's you know, using a decoy, whether it's still hunting with a bow, whether it's a typical tree stand, whether it's sneaking in close to a bed, or you know, finding a good rough spot and grinding it out for a few days. I have that confidence to do it when I think that's the right move. Now I'm not always right, but I think that versatility has made me a much better hunter than I was early on, and it's made me effective throughout the season from start to finish in multiple different areas, multiple different types of terrain, multiple different levels of hunting pressure. And it's you know, you said it in the beginning, like I don't really consider myself an elite hunter because I still make mistakes all the time and I'm still like second guessing myself all the time. But it certainly has improved me as a hunter, and I feel the confidence that I can go anywhere and be effective. So I don't know, that's kind of the long the long way around that answer, but yeah, that versatility, you know, is is real important. 00:48:17 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that versatility in the experience that got you to that point is I think the secret to confidence in many cases, right, and confidence is that intangible that makes such a difference during a hunting season. So, yeah, I get you what you're saying there. 00:48:39 Speaker 3: Tell me this. 00:48:41 Speaker 2: You mentioned a bunch of things over the last twenty thirty minutes that I imagine you do consistently, things about like the way you approach you know, your archery, your physical fitness, your scouting. There's a lot of things that you seem to consistently tackle. You do things on a consistent basis to lead to consistent success. And another way to talk about these kinds of things would be habits. So I want to ask you a couple of questions about your habits, and number one, right out the gate, what would you say is your very most important habit. 00:49:20 Speaker 3: In regards to being successful as a bow hunter? Yeah, I would say I kind of have a habitual routine kind of throughout the year, and I don't I don't really, I don't vary from it and I don't take away from it. If anything, I just add to it. But it kind of revolves around, you know, going to the gym to make sure my body is strong and ready but also my mind. So yes, I enjoy working out. It relieves my stress. It makes me feel good. I like to feel strong, I like to feel able. When I was nineteen twenty twenty five, I was like, you know, like most guys at age full of testosterone, I just want to be big and muscular. Now I don't even care about that. I want to be effective in the woods. And I know, you know, whitetail hunting is, you know, kind of a thing where you don't necessarily need to be strong and fit. But I like to hunt other species. As you can see, like some of these deer behind me, they're mule deer. Some are high country, some are desert, some are you know, western plains. They require a lot of miles, They require a lot of flexibility and agility and endurance. So my workouts now are kind of geared more towards that. But I mentioned the mental part too. Doing that consistently just builds a strong mind. It builds me mental toughness. So I choose to get up at five because I don't want to get up at five. I choose to get up at five to get it done and to start my day because it's it's hard. It sucks, Like every time I'm like, oh god, d you know what I mean, Like every time I bitch about it, you know, but I don't sit there, you know, I don't grab my phone and him and Hall and I literally I just it goes off. I hit that thing probably within three seconds, and I just I sit up and I sit there and I stretch my back and I kind of do this and everything's creaking and cracking, and it's like, oh my gosh. And I get up and I'm stiff. You know, I got a bad back. I get up, I'm stiff. I can barely stand up straight. And then all of a sudden, I just start moving and everything starts loosening up. And I go to the gym and I do things to kind of preserve all these ailments that I'm having as I age and to make them strong. But that getting up early and forcing myself to do it, it's like a it's like a mental hurdle that I start my day off with. And then it also doesn't interfere with family time. I'm not like working a full workday and then going to the gym for an hour and a half and then getting home. It's like, no, I'm maximizing, I can come I can come home and spend time with the family and still getting you know, get my arrows in. But it's you know, that's something that is a happen that's a routine of mine year long, and I kind of ramp that up leading up to the season. And my motivation is to be able to do this as long as I can. And I understand, like white tail hunting, you don't need to do it as much. I still think it's important. I still think it helps you. Yeah, and I want to be able to climb it. I mean, look at John Eberhart. I mean, the dude's seventy four or whatever he is and he's still prepping, you know, forty some trees thirty foot up in there. You know, I remember a couple of years ago he called me. I don't remember what he called me about, but he was like, he was hacking a trail through a marsh, like to get to this tree. I'm like, what you know? I mean, He's like, I'm like, yeah, this guy, this guy's a machine. But I want to I want to be able to do that. I want to be able to go to the mountains and crush. And that's a big time reason why I hunt with a lot of these younger guys out there because a lot of guys my age don't want to do it anymore. You know, I'm approaching fifty, but I feel great out there. I mean, I still feel great out there. In addition to that, Yes, you mentioned my archery. I love archery. Archery is like a meditation for me. It's a it's like therapy. I love shooting my bow. I do it just about every day. I mean certainly, you know, you go on trips and stuff. He can't always bring your bow. But it might not be you know, five minutes I go out there and fling a few arrows, or I might go out there for an hour. There's been days where I've literally went out three or four different times, three or four different sessions when I have like a day off or something and people are doing stuff and I have that time. But I set a set aside time each year, you know, when I'm coming out of the season, to build that muscle, memory back, build that strength, shoot those reps indoors when it's when it's snowing cold out, build that strength, build that shot execution, go through those target panic girls. Then when it starts getting nice out then I go to testing. I'll test my gear. I'll try some new fletching, I'll try some new arrows, I'll try some new heads, maybe tweak my bow a little bit, trying to find little ways to improve my gear, improve the forgiveness, improve the consistency. And I'll carry that on through you know, April, May, June. You know, I've past past few years, I've been trying to you know, stay active, bow hunting, doing some turkey, some bear, some access deer, to stay sharp. That's been helpful. But then as I get into like you know, mid July, late July, I want to settle in on something. If I'm going to make any changes, I want to settle in on it and commit to it. And then I switch to what I you know, I call like archery, you know, archery training almost bow hunting training. Where I'm going out, you know, I'm ranging, boom down, come to full draw, execute a good shot up in a tree, in my saddle in a tree, stand down on the ground on my knees. I got a great backyard where I can shoot out past one hundred yards, and there's woods on the side where I can kind of get up on the sidehill. So I can get uneven footing shooting out through holes, so everything is like realistic because I hunt a lout on the ground. Because I hunt a lot out west, I shoot from my knees, I shoot from my butt, I shoot on uneven ground, I shoot through holes, and I try to make things realistic to what I find when I bow hunt, because as you know, I mean very rarely unless you're on like a like a man Is farm where you can kind of set up and you know, kind of know where the deer kind of come from and come to you. Then you can maybe set up some really good seated shots out of a tree stand. But a lot of times when we're hunting new areas, we don't have that. We're not able to trim. You're going up in a tree that's not perfect. You know, you end up with a weird shot angle like this. You're you're off balance, you're bending down, you're hunching down. Those things are hard and realistically, how many guys practice that. We practice flat footed in the backyard at twenty thirty forty and then we go to wherever, Ohio, and you know, you get up in this tree and then you got this buck running down off the ridge and you can't trim and there he is at you know, twenty nine. You're trying to, you know, get a shot through like this, like those are the shots we get. And the way I look at is I have to train for that. I have to train and put myself through those types of scenarios if I'm going to be expected to do it, and the most high pressure moment of my season if I don't, of course I'm going to fail. Of Course I'm going to hit him high. Of course I'm going to hit him back. Of course I'm going to miss. Of course I'm going to rush the shot because I haven't tried it even once. So I've ingrained that into my routine, into that late summer routine where I am trying hard shots, things that are very challenging, challenging my balance, challenging my footing, shooting through holes, learning my trajectory. And that's kind of where I'm at right now with stuff. And Lisa always makes fun of me. She goes, what I said, I'm going to go shoot my bow, and she'll go, You're gonna go roll around in the grass again, because she comes out, she comes out on the deck and she sees me like I'm on my knees and I'm hunched over and I draw like this, and then I set up and shoot. You know, she calls it rolling around in the grass. So but but but that's that's my mindset, you know, that's my mindset. Is like I'm preparing for those scenarios. Like last year, I killed two bucks off the ground, one on my knees that I had to basically sneak through, you know, sneak through this hedgerow to get to got down on my knees, stopped him and came to full draw, all in one motion, and it was you know, it was a shot towards kind of the end of what I considered like my ethical extended range. There, you know, put a great shot on them. You know, if if if I don't train that stuff, I don't I don't have that opportunity, or if I take it, I did, something bad happens. So so then you know, during the season, you know, then I'm like, I'm kind of head down grinding through the season, but I will still make time to go out there check my marks. The bow is a machine. The bow, so the machine changes throughout the season, whether you think so or not. It does. You put it in the your truck and it's eighty five degrees in there, and then you pull it out and then you put it back in the string stretch. Now, if you're a twenty yard you know Mac shot or thirty yard max shot, you might not know it. You might it might change this much at a target that's not much. But when you're going out west where you might be hunting some of these mule deer or those antelope down there, it's like, you know, those are longer shots. You know, a two or three inch change at twenty thirty yards is a five six seven inch change out there. I've seen it happen. It's happened to me. So constantly checking those marks, making sure you're good, making sure your form and your execution is good. I do that kind of throughout the season, and then you know, when season ends, I just I start the whole thing all over again. And that is consistency. It's it in within all of that. That's kind of like working on myself. But throughout the year, hunting season, before hunting season, after hunting season, I am scout scouting as much as I can. Sometimes I get big windows where I can scout a ton, and I scout a ton, and then there's other times where there's a lot of family stuff and I can barely find time to get out, so I might scout for an hour, or I might go glassing for the last forty five minutes of daylight. What I try to do is prioritize windows of scouting when I make sure I get in what I feel like I need to to be successful, and that is postseason kind of you know, before spring green up, before you know, when the snow melts, before you know, like before it gets really thick with vegetation. That is a window where I feel I need to be out there. I need to gather some information. If I'm going to a new air or a new state that's going to be during the rut. I want to be able to look during that time because I can break it apart easily. I can see things easily, and things make very good sense to me. I can move into that area with really high confidence whether I find a good buck bed or whether it's going to be a rut hunt, and I can put myself in a situation where I think I have a high chance of success or in the rut, and then you know, through the rest of the summer, kind of like midsummer, it's not as important for me to get out, so I won't push it. I'll spend more time with the family. But when I do get those windows, I'll still go out. I'll tie up, you know, some loose ends that I wasn't able to get to. In that window where I prefer to get out, I can still gain some really good knowledge during that time. It's just a little harder because things are starting to thicken up. But that's not a time where I push to get out in the woods a lot. It's just not return on investment there, I think is lower. And then as I get closer to the beginning of the season, I have another window where I need to be out there if I want to get on a buck early. And that's like that those two two and a half weeks leading up to the season, that is a window where I will spend some time out glassing. I will put some cameras in spots where I can't glass. I will walk perimeter of some food sources, trying to you know, see if they're if I can cut a big track. I use those three methods there glassing where I can glass. If it sets up well for glassing, i'll glass. If it doesn't set up well for glassing, I'll use camera work and I'll put those down in those spots where I can't see or if it's too thick, and try to do you know, maybe a check before season. And then the other one is literally just kind of walking the perimeter of where you know, marsh meets meets food source or woods meets foods and cutting a track. And then a lot of times what I can do is I can look at a map, or I can scout my way back in, and I can get pretty darn good at anticipating where you know that buck is bedded. It may I might not have the exact bed, but I can a lot of times just from knowledge and experience, I can estimate that you know, he's probably writing here, and I can probably access through here, and I can probably set up here and have a realistic chance. If it's a higher pressure setting, I'm probably going to push back a little further. If it's a lower pressure setting like Kentucky or something, I might I might favor more towards the field or the food source. So these are all experiences that I've had, you know, in the past, and all these like things are going through my head. I'm really kind of relying on a lot of past experience and instinctual you know, instinctual feelings to make these decisions. But that's you know, and then throughout the season it's it's scout a lot, hunt when I can or when I think the time is right. So it's still very much scouting, heavy, hunt a little less. That has to do more with my schedule, not necessarily what I want to do, but that makes me all those things that I told you, and then that in season scouting and then those high percentage shits sits is what makes me pretty efficient unlimited time. 01:04:34 Speaker 2: So you talked about a lot of those things that you've done over your experiences over the years many years, have led to you now, you know, having the confidence to be able to pick apart a place or identify the spot within the spot when you find it or when you've cut that track, whatever it might be. So that's kind of alluding to your past history all adding up to where you are now. That led to me thinking about or leading me to be curious about something that has happened more recently for you. So I'm curious, is there anything over the last few years that has changed for you, a new belief, a new habit, a new behavior that's really improved things for you. Is there any recent thing that all of a sudden You've picked up and been like, ah, this this helps, or this new idea helps, or this new habit has made a difference. Anything come to mind. 01:05:25 Speaker 3: Well, a couple of I guess a couple of tactics come to mind that I've definitely done more frequently. I've done them in the past too, but as I alluded to kind of earlier we were talking about it, I didn't do it as much, you know, the ground hunting and decoy usage. I've been using a lot more. Mainly the ground hunting. We all know, like you know, setting up in you know, on the ground, you can set up on the ground just to give what a tree stand in like an ambush style situation. But I'm talking more, you know, I justin Wright and I we call it like slip hunting. So essentially, you'd be going into maybe it is an area familiar with and that's fine, or an area you're not familiar with and you're going in and you know what I would wear is like my tree saddle, and then I would have like a platform with a set of sticks strapped to my back like on a predator pack or something just very minimalistic, a bow rope and my bow. And what I'm doing is I'm kind of planning a route through there, through the terrain that I pick out ahead of time, and I'm moving through, still hunting, with the goal of you know a few things optimally, like the number one greatest thing would be to, oh, I get eyes on a buck, and now I'm in some sort of situation where I might be able to sneak closer, spot and stock or or just you know, get closer let him make the last move. That doesn't happen that often. It does sometimes, especially more open terrain, especially like if you're out, you know, during the rut or something, it could happen quite a bit that way because you're more active throughout the day. The other scenario where that's where that's really valuable is I'm slipping through and I'm scouting. I'm hunting, but I'm scouting and I come across the sign that tells me that this is a good spot, or maybe I should sit this now. Now I'm ready to go with my gear to hunt that sign if I if I feel like or I can, you know, kind of play off my instincts and see if I need, if I feel like I need to follow that sign back a little more. But by by having that confidence to go in there, you know, you might get a visual or you might come across the sign that tells you that this spot is worth hunting, or you might work through that whole area. Another thing that's not not bad at all, and I welcome this every time, is you actually bump a buck. You know, you bump a buck. Yeah, it sucks, you don't want necessarily want to do that, but now you know where one is, you know. And I wouldn't have known that if I didn't apply that tactic, that slip hunting tactic. So now I'm in the game with a buck. You know, maybe it's a soft bump and I can get them coming back. I've pulled that off a couple of times. Justin's pulled that off five or six times. Maybe you bump them a little harder and he goes over the ridge and it's like, okay, that's fine. Now I know the general area where this is, and we can play start playing that game. So all three of those things are good, right, All three of those things wouldn't have happened if I didn't apply that tactic. And then the last one is you work through that whole area and you don't see anything exciting, and you just write that area off. So when I started doing this more, it started putting me in front of big deer more often, It started creating situations for me, It started leading me towards sign that I never would have seen if I wasn't more kind of willing to go in there and aggressively scout those areas. Now, I'm not saying do this on your forty acres that you're leased out, that you have presets and you have a food plot planet. I'm not saying to do that. That wouldn't I don't think that would necessarily be appropriate. But you might be able to do it on a small scale, Like maybe there's a little pocket over here that you see, you know, see some tracks coming out of and you're like, what, man, I didn't even consider that. So you kind of go over there with you know, your mobile setup, and you follow the sign in and you're very careful. Obviously it's a smaller piece, so you're going to be much more delicate with your approach, and maybe you find a spot to sit up and capitalize on that. But like in an area where maybe you have a few different spots to hunt and they aren't out, and it's like, Okay, I'm gonna try this spot. I'm gonna try this public piece or this permission piece that i'd never hunt, you know, and then you apply that that has opened up so many doors for me and all of those scenarios that I mentioned. I run into a buck, I see them, and I spot in stock that has happened. I come into a hot sign and I end up setting up right there. I've had that, I've had that work and end up shooting a buck. And then I've also bumped a buck and now I'm I'm in the game with that deer where I otherwise wouldn't have been. And then many times I scout my way through and I don't learn anything other than the lay of the land, you know. But maybe I see something that's like, hey, you know that doesn't have big bucks sign. But like man, I bumped fifteen or twenty different dos, Like I'm gonna come back here during the ruck. You know, all that's valuable and all that is is due to that kind of slip hunting style. And then I mentioned the decoy thing. The decoy thing has has really opened some doors for me kind of more in that open country. And I gained one of my biggest white tails. He's upstairs, but my biggest Michigan white tail. He was the biggest buck in the state, killed in two thousand and six with a bow, and I killed him over a decoy. And uh, it's it's crazy, like just like the old you know, three D style decoy, the Kerry light. I still have that decoy. I still use it, so I knew it can be effective, even though it's not as effective in Michigan in general. I knew it could be effective. But I had guys, my buddy Mark Jost, He's killed fifty big white tails over decoys. I don't even know how many. It's insane. You see what Jared Scheffler's done, Jesse Coots, you know, out in Kansas with his decoy. And I start seeing these guys, I'm like, Okay, you know there is something here. There is something here to this that I am missing. Out on. So I, you know, bought some some more mobile type decoys and I've been using them more in the last few years and that has really created some awesome hunts. I've shot uh two deer using those. I missed my target buck last year, you know, in a snowstorm. It was like a white out snowstorm in November. It was just weird. It like blew in for like twenty minutes, and I'm just like, you know, looking down. My bow's white. I'm all white, and I'm looking out into this field and I can't see anything. And then all of a sudden, I look up and my decoys out there, and there's this big old buck like right at it. And I'm like, holy smokes, you know. And I come to full draw. And as I'm at full draw, I look and I see like all that white down my arrow, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know. So I'm trying to decide, like is this going to affect my arrow? And I didn't want to make any changes, so I put the pin right on him and I shot my arrow went right into the dirt. I ended up shooting that buck later on, like about a week later, from the ground spot in stock, So it's created just a new excitement level, you know, and that kind of that open country. And what I found is like some of the areas I hunt that are really open. I think that that's a huge advantage to have that. So last year I was after that buck. He's over there somewhere, but I was after that buck several times, and I kept seeing him out in the open, and I always had that decoy with me. I made a post it's a heads up decoy, and I always had that thing with me. So I had my bow in one hand, this in one hand, and I was always on the ground, and I was always sneaking around, slipping around because he was very visual, but he was always out in the open and he was just where I couldn't get to him. So that decoy played a really key role in drawing him into bow range. So yeah, I would say I would say those two things. Adopting those two strategies have you know, over the last five seven years, I've gained a lot of confidence in those and they've made me a better hunter, more versatile type hunter for sure. 01:14:30 Speaker 2: Yeah. Goes back to what you said about that versatility, like the if you are a one trick pony. You are vulnerable, right if if there's only one place you can get it done or one way you can get it done. Inevitably, in a hunting season, there are going to be times when that thing's not going to work out, where something changes and your spot isn't what it was, or your tactic isn't what it was. You have to have more tools in the toolbox, and you are a really good example of that. I want to shift a little bit towards three kind of and intangibles. But the more I think about it, I think they might be the three or at least in my mind maybe the three most important intangibles for consistent deer hunting success. Those three things being hard work or your work ethic, number two mental toughness, and number three decision making. Like those three things, work ethic, mental toughness, and decision making, I think form a huge part of what makes anyone successful. So I'd like to walk through each one of those with you to understand how you look at those three things. And so maybe let's start with work ethic or hard work in the context of deer hunting. Andy, how would you how would you define hard work as a deer hunter, How would you illustrate that in your own life? Like, what does hard work look like for you? Because we all talk about you gotta work hard, right that all the time. But I think what we might think when we hear someone say that versus what it actually looks like on the ground for the very most successful deer hunters probably looks a little bit different. And you've given us some examples already, But could you elaborate a little bit in your life, in your deer hunting world hard work? What does it look like? What does it mean? 01:16:25 Speaker 3: I think you know when you hear hard work, you're thinking like, you know, sweating and you know you're using your your strength or your endurance and you know you're out of breath. That certainly comes into play, you know at certain times for sure. But like hard work, to me, deer hunting a lot is just being consistent with your effort that is going to eventually end in a successful result. So to me, hard work could be you know, I can't get out today, but I'm gonna sit at my computer and there's this book I'm gonna I'm gonna target in twenty twenty four. I'm gonna go through all of the the data I have on him, all the sightings, all the trail camera data, and I'm gonna see if I can come up with some patterns something that will help me. Hard work could be staying consistent, you know, going out and shooting your boat constantly. The guy that the guy that does that and does that properly, I mean, he's he's going to be at an advantage when that that opportunity comes. Hard work could be you know, going out if you have your eighty acres and you're out there in the summer and you're trimming your spots so that all of your shooting lanes are clear and you're gonna have good clear shots. Your stands are set, everything is prepped. You know, you got mock scrapes sit in, you got your cameras out, you got all this stuff ready to go, and you've you've done the work. You've set the stage for a successful season. And you know, maybe for a more public land oriented guy, it's you've done sufficient scouting. You've scouted you know this piece and this piece and this piece. You've narrowed it down to you know, your three or four spots on here that you're going to focus on during the rut, and then you know over here this spot had a big buck early season, and you're trying to learn as much as you can about him. You're in there, You're you're figuring out all right, I knew he was betted on this ridge, and okay, I found a bet on this point. And here's the oak, the oak flat down here at the bottom, and looks like he might cross down here at the bottom. This seems like a good funnel. Like you're you're you're constantly working at setting yourself up for success. I mean, all of those things, to me are are hard work. Like hard work can just be showing up consistently in a manner that is going to set yourself up for success. And yeah, I mean I've been on some hunts where hard work is you're beating your body to a bloody pulp to get you know, up a mountain into this basin that is, you know, three ridge lines over you know, maybe if you're you're hunting elk or you're hunting mule deer or something like that, that's hard work. I mean, that's something not a lot of people can do. But it's it's interesting though, too, because like I've seen guys do that that aren't necessarily like fit. They're just they're they're tough, you know, They're just tough and they don't quit. So that is a big intangible there of just being mentally tough and not quitting and being able to do kind of whatever it takes and take your lumps. But yeah, I don't know. I would say that hard work could be a lot of different things, but it's really if you see the guys that are real successful at the highest level, you know, and I'm not I'm not. I'm talking about guys that can you could pretty much throw them anywhere and they're going to have success. It's something that they do in some way, shape or form a year round. They're doing something almost year round. Yeah, they might take breaks to do bass fishing, they might take breaks to do some fly fishing. But they're still working out, they're still running, they're still shooting their ball, they're still you know, when they get a minute, they're getting online and looking at that Kansas piece of public in Kansas where they're going to be in November. It's just it's a consistent focus on that, uh, in different ways that it's going to set yourself up for success. So it doesn't necessarily mean you're like killing yourself physically. It could be, like I said, as little as you know, sitting down and breaking down some data. To me, that is all hard work, it's all consistency, and it all leads to success. But yeah, there's a lot of times where like guys will just physically outwork guys. Maybe you're on you know, you're on a hunt, and this guy is going in early, he's sitting all day, he's you know, he's hiking a mile and a half back. He's putting in way more work than this guy that's kind of sleeping in. He's dragging, you know, he's kind of walking out in gray light. He comes back in at nine and I saw a couple of dos, you know, both still hunting the same area, both still on the same hunt. But there's one guy that's clearly outworking the other. And that's the guy that deserves the success. You know, it should be the guy that puts in more time, more effort, you know, is a little more creative with his thinking, a little more focused. Those guys should come out on top. That's the way it's supposed to be. 01:21:41 Speaker 4: So so, so what about the not the flip side, but kind of the cousin of that, the mental side of that. 01:21:57 Speaker 2: So mental toughness, how would you how would you describe that and what in what ways do you find that to be important for you? 01:22:07 Speaker 3: That's real important with bow hunting because in bow hunting you fail a lot, and it's hard. You know, bow hunting is hard. Even these days with these you know, these compound bos and all this technology, it's still hard, man, it is really hard. You start throwing in some difficult states, older age class, dear, different species, and it's hard. And you have to be able to accept the failure and not let it affect you to the point where it's going to lead into another mistake or another failure. You have to learn from it and try to improve, you know, if you made the mistake and stay positive and just keep moving forward, keep trying to improve, keep trying to eliminate those mistakes. It's staying consistent, you know, Like I mentioned the gym thing, you know, that's that's mental toughness. You know, it's like being able to override yourself, override that comfort, override what you'd rather do for something that you should do that's going to make you better, make you healthier, improve your life, improve your mood, improve your hunting. That's mental toughness. I mean, it's it's you're pushing through kind of that weak voice that you have. You know, you know, you're on day seven of the rut. You've you've hunted all day, you know, six out of seven days, and you're just like, oh my gosh, and you you know, you force yourself to get up and get out there, and then you're rewarded with the buck, you know, the buck that you've been after. That's mental toughness. I think you know that comes into play big time with bow hunting, because we you are going to fail. You're gonna fail a ton, you're gonna miss, You're gonna wound it, You're gonna wound animals. You're gonna feel like a piece of crap. You're gonna feel like you suck. I feel I feel like I suck every hunting season. At some point every hunting season, I feel like I'm not sure if I'm going to kill another deer in my life. I seriously feel that. I literally feel that, and uh, there's times where I'll be out there I'll be like, how did I ever get an arrow in one of these? How did I ever do it? And then then it happens. You know, the playbook that I follow works. You know, it does work, but you are going to fail. You're gonna fall on your face. You just have to pick yourself up, not let it beat you up too bad. I do think making You know, big mistakes are are as painful as they are, they're good because it's usually those big ones that hurt or that affect you so deeply. Those are the you usually the ones that spark the biggest change. Those are the ones that are like, Okay, enough is enough. I'm not doing that again, you know, And yes, you screwed up on that one buck, but it ends up getting you ten other ones down the road. So give yourself some grace, be patient with yourself. You're gonna make mistakes, let them roll off your back, but use them, you know, don't. There's value in those, so you have to use those. And if you don't, if you don't even think about it, you're like, oh, you know, there's bad luck or whatever, and you don't. You don't think about it, you don't try to correct it, you don't think about why that dear did this, or why did I do that? You know what happened, what went wrong, It's going to happen again, And just that mindset in general overall over the long term, it makes you deadly. You know, it makes you very, very deadly because then you start to you know, eliminate some of those options that could go wrong, mitigate them as much as you can, and then you know you're just set up for success much more, you know, with that type of mindset. 01:26:12 Speaker 2: So true. So then the last of these key intangibles then decision making. So you've got to put in the hard work to put yourself in position for success. You need to have the mental toughness to deal with adversity, to maintain consistency, to be out there in the right mindset. But then decision making. This is kind of in the day to day when you're deciding what do I do today? How do I handle the situation? Where do I go? When do I hunt? Which deer? Do I hunt? Which tree do I hunt? While you're working your way through the woods and you're scouting, do I stop here or do I keep going? Is this the spot? Is this not the spot? I find myself every season so many different times in that scenario, in one of those scenarios with my mental gears turning and turning, and I'm a thinker and sometimes as an overthinker, and and you know, it's kind of torture in the moment sometimes or I'm up all night thinking about what should I do. So it's both my favorite thing and and my least favorite thing about hunting. Maybe is that part, but mostly my favorite. So I'm curious with you, what does your what does your decision making process look like in any one of those scenarios. How do you weigh the costs and benefits or the pros and cons or this spot versus that spot? You know, because there's a thousand different decisions we need to make over the course of a deer hunting season, and oftentimes they're very important. 01:27:38 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is a good one because I know you are that type. You have that type of brain, and you are that that person that really thinks and can fall into overthinking to the point where you're frozen almost And you know I am I'm probably well, I'm definitely different than that, but I can relate to that because I do love data, and I have collected a lot of data over the years to look for trends and stuff. But what I've really found that's been helpful to me is that I've learned just to kind of rely on my gut and rely on my instincts. And I enjoy that much more than being kind of overwhelmed with information and data. And I still like data because it's great for learning, and you could plug that in and it can still kind of affect those instincts. But you know, these develop over time, and I think you know, you have a lot of experience, a lot of different areas. I think you'd be surprised if you tapped into those a little more just how effective you can be. We've we've kind of these days with with trail cameras and glassing and cell cameras and you know, software that breaks this down and that we've it's made it possible to just you know, gather a lot of data, even real time data, to the point where we're getting away from our instincts that we literally have inside us to pursue these critters. So I've learned to really kind of tap into those, and it's something that's evolved over time. They were very non existent, you know when I started, and you know, slowly over time, through mistakes, through failures, recalculating trying something you know that didn't work, like you said, yet I went too far. I should have stopped there and I didn't, or I didn't go far enough and there he goes out of range. You know, your instincts are constantly like recalculating, you know, over time. It's a long term play, it's it's a long game. But when you learn to trust those, eventually they start to come through for you more. You know, And those feelings you have, those gut feelings you have, those are pulled from old experiences that are telling you like push in a little more, you know, or pull back a little bit more, or you can you know, you can, you can do this. You know, I feel like I need to go in there. I'm scared going there. I don't want to bump them, but I feel like I should. You know, those are those intuitions that you're getting are those are your instincts trying to tell you to do something, and they're not always right, but the more you trust them, they automatically subconsciously recalculate over time. And you know, like I said, they were non existent when I started I started to develop them once. You know, once in a while they were right, and most of the time they were wrong, you know, in the next stage and then the next stage, it's like I started, and are you know, trusting them a little more, and you know, sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. And now whenever I get in a situation like that where I'm I'm at a crossroads, I just I just follow that gut feeling, you know, and a lot of times I'll just my whole hunt will just go off feelings and reacting to what's in front of me or you know, relying on those instincts to kick in to kind of guide me. And they're still wrong all the time, but they're all right. They're right enough to put me in front of big animals consistently. And I love that. I love being that type of feel hunter, that that feels you know, these these these uh, these instincts kick in. I think I've heard a couple hunters talk about this, and it's not talked about very much. One of them is Jared Scheffler. We we we talked on the phone. We geek out about this because him and I are we have that same mindset in a way, I'm kind of like in between, like sort of where you're at and where he is. But I can very much tap into that, especially when I go out of state. Like sometimes I will go out of state and I will purposely go out there in the spring, and I will scout this piece and this piece and this piece, and now I narrow it down to these two pieces, and I got these three or four spots on this property, and I'm ready to go for the run. Sometimes I don't even want to do that. I want to show up with no information because then I'm able to tap into that, you know, I'm able to tap into that instinct and go into that blind and try to come out with an animal, you know, in a span of you know, a few days or or week or whatever it is. So I purposely give myself opportunities to build that into to work on that, and to tap into that. But information is good too, Like that has led to a lot of animals, you know, Tarok Cama data, I glass him, I see what he's doing. I'm moving in like that. You're you're you're going out and you're gathering that intel and then you're moving in right at the right moment. A lot of my dear come from that too, So I think it's easy to get really frozen or caught up the second guessing things. But I always tell hunters like err on the side of aggressive aggression. Aggressive decisions have paid off for me much more than laying back and being passive. Sometimes that's the move. You know. You and I have shared a lot of stories where I've figured out, you know, or I determined the move is to actually just plant myself here, be patient and wait for that buck to come by. And I was able to do that successfully. So sometimes that is the mood, but the move. But when you are aggressive, like when you're coming up, I always say take chances, because when you take chances, you are you're you're you're kind of forcing these situations a little bit. But then you're starting to figure out what works and what doesn't work. You're you're getting into the action, and yes, you blew it, but now next time, you know, maybe you don't go in quite as far or make maybe you make a different, different, different move in that similar situation. So you're you're calculating those instincts through experience, where if you're the guy that's so fearful that's so scared to bump his back and he's always sitting way back, like a lot of times he's not even observing that or he's not even getting those encounters. So having that more aggressive approach is more of a fast track in my opinion, to become a better ball hunter. It doesn't mean be reckless, but it means go for it, man, go for it, get in there, try to get as close as you can. Go for that. If you feel like it's right, do it. Don't always just sit back. Sometimes the play is sit back, observe. I love to do that, but I'm also aggressive when I think that's the and I've always been a pretty aggressive hunter, and I blew things a lot. I screwed up a lot by being aggressive. But like I said, now I've learned to tame that back when I need to tame it back, and I've learned to hit the gas when I need to hit the gas, and it's made me pretty efficient. So I rely on those instincts. I know it kind of sounds like hocus pocusy, but they're there. They are there. You just have to you just have to listen to them and trust them. And that's the thing trust them. They're gonna be wrong more than they're going to be right. When you're starting off over time, you're gonna notice like, damn, I made the right move. You know, Like you get these feelings and all of a sudden you start they start panning out for you, and then you know, next thing, you know, it's twenty five thirty years down the road, and like you're able to operate on those a lot, especially like when you get thrown into you know, you on these out of state trips, you've never been there before, you're in new country. It's like that's what you're dealing with. You know. I don't like using trail cameras out of state because I like to just go in and figure it out and use those instincts to get me on deer, and you know, it can really be an effective way to hunt. So I always try to encourage guys to tap into that and really kind of trust those feelings when you get them. 01:36:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, and to tie it all together. You know that that instinctual voice, as you said, it comes from experience. Right. The more time you have out there doing these things, trying these things, the stronger those instincts become. The stronger that instinctual voice becomes. But the way to speed that up is to do the thing you said, which is to air towards aggressiveness. Like the only way to build that experience that builds your instincts is to be aggressive, put yourself in the mix enough to make mistakes, to learn the lessons, to see the thing to be in the game, And that is like the way to speed up that learning process. Probably nothing has made a bigger difference for me in the last five years than is that very thing. Just beginning to push the envelope. Get more aggressive, try the crazy thing, try the new thing, do the thing that Man, it's going to be a home run or it's going to be you know, striking out, but you're never going to know unless you try it. And like you said, plenty of times it doesn't work, but you learn something. And then one out of ten times it does work and you hit the home run. But the nine other times you're learning a great lesson that maybe would not have been possible if you hung way out in the edge and never tried anything. 01:37:34 Speaker 3: So exactly, huge, huge, yeah, that huge, ben So you know, I'm just like you. I have a ton of friends like that, are you know, real serious about hunting? And because I have that that more aggressive approach I have, I have way more encounters each season than you know, all my friends. You know, it's because i have more of that fearless mindset that I'm willing to go in and make the mistake. I'm willing to go in and potentially blow it up. And that's why I have more successes because I'm I'm putting myself in those situations more and I'm willing to go in there more. Now with that said, I make more mistakes than all of them too. I screw up more than all of them. Like, well, you know, we'll get on our texting thread. I have a couple of different groups of guys that I talk to, like I am screwing up more, I'm blowing more dear out, but I'm also having more encounters. I'm also in the game constantly, So it's it's a it is. But like you said, the more you put yourself in there, you also get better in that situation. Like how do you how do you get good on the ground, like sneaking into a Bucks betting area and you know, and staying undetected and maybe getting an arrow in them. Well, you don't get good at it by never doing it. You get gooding at it, get good at it and have confidence in it by trying it and failing, trying it and failing, trying at it again and almost getting him, trying it again and getting him. You know, it takes that mindset that I'm willing to burn a few bridges to gain a skill, to gain a confidence, to get more encounters down the road, and that does. It comes with time, you know. And I do have that confidence where if I screw one up, I know I can probably get on another one. And to be honest with you too, Mark, it's like I've killed a lot of deer, like I've killed you know, I'm satisfied with my hunting career. I've killed a lot of deer, and yes, I want to kill more deer. I want to have more experiences. But like if I if I had a season where I didn't kill anything, yeah I would, you know, I'd be probably hard on myself or whatever. But like I I've I've had a long road of success and experiences. I'm very satisfied and I want to continue that and I want to continue to build and if I screw up, and I screw up on a big deer. I don't care if it's if any of it, I screw up on the biggest dear of my life. Like, I'm going to be fine. You know, I've I've had a lot of experience, I've I've done well, and that's not everybody's situation yet, you know, So I understand why some guys are a little more cautious, a little more fearful. But I think it does pay off just to kind of have that more go for an attitude. But but realize it's not reckless. Aggressiveness and reckless are not the same thing, you know, don't be reckless. Still use your brain, Still use your smart your you're you know, be smart. Try to make good decisions, but maybe push the envelope a little more, because when you're pushing the limits, then you start to you learn what the limits are, and when you don't push the limits, you don't know what the limits are. You might have, you know, someone listening to this, you might have way more skill potential than me or Jesse or Jared Scheffler or Mark or whoever. You might have that inside you, but you won't know that unless you you push those limits. You have to test yourself. You have to try to do things that maybe haven't been done or maybe don't seem like they can be done. I've done things, pulled things off that I'm like, how did that happen? You know? But the thing is, I just put myself there in that situation, and you know, made some good decisions that felt like I should make them in that moment, and it pays off. So I don't know, I guess that would be you know, that would be my advice. 01:41:57 Speaker 2: Really really good stuff. I want to end with some rapid fire questions, so you get like like a line or two to answer every one of these thirty seconds or less. All right, so just like first thought, real quick answer, and we're going to move through a bunch of these and then tie tie a bow on this thing. So first, this one's a hard pivot from some of the other things we've been talking about, but I think it poses an interesting counterpoint to a lot of what we talked about because I think a lot of folks, especially newer folks, think that they're deer hunting woes or they're deer hunting dreams can be you know, found with like a silver bullet. Right, if I just buy this thing, it'll make all the difference. If I just have the very best of this, that and the other thing, I'll be able to kill a big deer like Andy. And usually that's not the case. But gear is important. You talked about the fact that you obsess over your gear and tweaking things and making sure you get the right setup and whatnot. So two geary questions here. One, what purchase of one hundred dollars or less? So, what very inexpensive purchase have you made that actually does make a big difference for you or has been very positively impactful. So what's one thing under one hundred dollars that actually was Like, man, that little thing made a big difference. 01:43:24 Speaker 3: For me personally, and this would probably help a lot of people out there, or would be like a Hinge release. You can get a used Hinge release that will teach you, you know, a good way to execute the shot, that will help you maybe beat some bad habits if you have them that's made you know. You could say a Hinge release or maybe a Resistance release you used to use one. I think those, you know, some of those can get pretty expensive. That's why I said a Hinge release, because you can get one of those for under a hundred bucks, especially like one that's a few years old. I got a couple over there I got for like eighty bucks. So yeah, that that would be that had has made a big impact for me and just being able to execute a good shot, not rush the shot, and it has translated into much better hunting success for me. And that moment of truth, uh, getting away from that cheap index figure where I was punching the trigger. So that's the that's the thing that comes to mind. I mean, under one hundred bucks, it's hard. You know, there's certain things that I think are really key, like uh, you know, binoculars and stuff, but that would be tough to get that under a hundred bucks. 01:44:47 Speaker 2: So well, okay, So then that leads us to the next question, which would again moving along here, if you had to give up all of your fancy high end gear like I know you've got You've got a great bow, great buyos, great clothing, you know, the great saddle platform like all that stuff. I know, you've got a lot of things that you put a lot of value in and that you've invested in. If you had to give it all up and go back to beginner like entry level Walmart everything, Walmart clothes, Walmart buyos, Walmart release, Walmart bow, everything except for one category. You could keep your high end, top tier one thing, so you could. You can keep your high end bow, you can keep your high end closed, you keep your high end optus. Whatever. What's the one thing or the one category that you would choose in which you really did still want to keep that top tier, big investment. 01:45:43 Speaker 3: I certainly would not want to be hunting with a Walmart bow that's for damn sure, or Walmart arrows. I kind of gravitate towards the weapon, because you know that's the thing we're using to actually put the projectile through the animal. I can. I could still kill deer off the ground. I could still kill deer with a cheap tree stand. I could still kill deer with cheap binoculars, a cheap release. But some of those cheaper bows and arrows they're just really poor quality. I think then you kind of getting into more of like a The way I think about it is more of like an ethical thing. You know, I would want the weapon, the weapon I have, I would want that to be. It doesn't need to be top of the line, but I wouldn't want Walmart level. I would want that to be probably my upgraded piece of equipment, just because that is the that's the thing that's going to be actually attempting to kill the animal, and I would want that to be as good a quality as I could get it. 01:46:55 Speaker 2: All Right, last three, real quick here, what's the most common trait, mindset or habit that you see across all of the best deer hunters. So one most consistent thing across the best of the best deer hunters. You know, what would you say that. 01:47:14 Speaker 3: Is most of the the most of the successful hunters I see, It's it's a it's a year long process. It's not like hunting season. The guys that are really getting it done, they have almost year round thought process or focus that revolves a lot around hunting. They seem to be real detail oriented, whether it's like whether it's gear or or scouting or trail camera work or habitat work or you know, covering new ground. It's it everyone that I know that's really good. They're doing something almost year round. They're archery. It's not just a pick up your bow, right before the season. Okay, now I'm gonna start thinking about deer. Oh you know where am I gonna hunt this year? It's it's it's as soon as the season ends, they're planning for the next one and in that next book, and uh, that's that's I would. 01:48:18 Speaker 2: Say that, Yeah, all right. What is one commonly held piece of hunting dogma. It's like a commonly held belief within the deer hunting world that most everyone thinks it's true that you believe is false. 01:48:34 Speaker 3: Two come to mind. The one one is I I don't think you can one hundred percent beat of deer's nose. I'm not gonna say you can't. I just don't believe you can. I've I don't think that that is a is a real thing that can be achieved through some sort of piece of equipment or a spray or a soap or anything like that. That's not to say playing in the wind or getting higher. You know, both things obviously can help and can do that. And then one I know, yes for one, but one other thing is like when you spook your buck, you think you know that's your last chance or he's gonna leave. I've come to find out that a lot of times they don't. They don't they'll come right back or they'll be very close by. And I've proved that to myself a lot just in the last five years. You know, last year or two years ago, I shot one in the shoulder with my bow on November seventh from the ground, and then I ended up shooting him with my bow the last day gun season December twelfth, not far from that same area. And then the buck this past year that I missed over the decoy and ended up getting a crack at him later, you know, about a week later. 01:49:55 Speaker 2: So all right, last question, if you were forced to distill your single most important piece of deer hunting advice or like the most important concept or philosophy that defines how you killed deer, if you had to put that on a billboard on the side of the highway, like next to Cabela's or Bass Pro shops or Shields wherever, where everyone's going to be driving by and seeing this message from Andy May, what would be that most important message be that you want to put there on the billboard for every deer hunter to see as they go drive into that store to get their gear, to buy their license, whatever, it. 01:50:35 Speaker 3: Is something along the lines of, like, hunting is supposed to be fun, Like, don't compare yourself, you know, don't compare yourself to other guys because not all of us are hunting on the same playing field, and it's easy to do these days. But something along those lines to remind the younger guys. I think about the younger guys a lot, the guys coming up that are seeing you know, guys like me or you know Lee, Lee Ellis or Mark Drury or and like it's like it almost feels like you have to do something at that level to be a good hunter, and it's just simply not true. We're just all in different scenarios. So hunt your own hunt, remember that it's supposed to be fun. If you want to try to be the best hunter you can be, learn from your mistakes, have that mindset of constantly improving. If you just want to go out and have fun, shoot deer with your family, go do that. Some of the happiest people I know and hunting are guys that do not care about big bucks and they go with their their dad and their brother up to hunting camp and they shoot the crap out a little little deer and they are the happiest guys I'll tell you. So that'd be a pretty big billboard to write all that, but you get the gist of it. 01:51:51 Speaker 2: It's a really, really, really good message though, So I will grant you the large billboard so that one can get out there for everyone, and I will thank you as as always Andy. Lots of a lot of wise words, a lot of great reminders, great insight, and we're all gonna be better because of it. So thank you Andy. 01:52:12 Speaker 3: Awesome, Yeah, thank you man. That was fun. 01:52:17 Speaker 2: All right. That is a wrap. Thanks for being here. Appreciate you tuning in. Hope you've enjoyed this series as much as I have, and until next time, stay wired to Honey.