00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number four O nine and today the show we are continuing our habitat specific series and our focus is mountain country stuff like the steep hills and mountains of Pennsylvania, Tennessee, West Virginia, up in the northeast. All that stuff is covered today and we're joined by expert bow hunters Johnny Stewart, Bow Martinic and Andy May. Alright, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. Today we're talking mountain country, talking stuff like the Appalitian Hills, foothills, mountains. We're talking about stuff up in the northeast, like Pennsylvania, stuff like what you find in Vermont or New Hampshire, Maine. Stuff you might find down and shoot, maybe the Ozarks. UH, probably very applicable to the mountains. You could be hunting in Idaho or some of the other Western states too. We're diving in how to think about these areas where there's typically lots and lots of country, big timber and significant topography, big hills, ridges, points, creek bottoms, valleys, draws a lot of different things that are going to impact deer movement, how wind fluctuates, and how you as a hunter can can try to find deer out there and try to get away with getting close. So we're joined by three folks, as has been the case for the previous uh renditions of this series, and he May joins me is co host. He's got some questions and some curiosities that he's gonna be diving into here. But our special guests are Johnny Stewart and Beaumark Tonic. Both of these guys are Pencil Vania hunters. They're both die hards. They've both traveled across the country to hunt in different places, so they're not just doing hill country in mountain country hunting there in PA. They're hitting a bunch of other states too. They've got some great insight, different perspectives, different ways of going about things. And we've heard on the hill Country episode back I don't know a month or a month and a half ago. So we're gonna cover some different things, but there is some overlap here. Um. So you can listen to that one and this one and take some things and add some things and kind of there's a there's a ven diagram. There's some oversection there that that I think is interesting actually, so keep that in mind. Um, as far as backgrounds here, you know, Johnny is just a die hard eat, sleeps and breathes this stuff. And Bow the one of the things he does additionally is he's got the East Meets West podcast YouTube series, website. Uh, He's doing some cool stuff in the media space. So if you enjoy what you hear today from Bow, you can definitely get more from him, So keep that in mind. The only other thing I will mention is that if you have not already signed up for our Whitetail weekly newsletter, I highly recommend you do that. Just go over to the meat Eat dot com. Make sure you're subscribed. That's where all of our new stuff is shared first. That's where you're gonna get updates on new content. That's what we're going to find out about some it's actually some pretty exciting things coming down the line with Wired Hunt. That's where we're gonna share it. We'll be talking about it there. So I just want to make sure you're tapped in on what's going on here in the wire Dunk community. There's going to be a lot, so stay tuned. And with that, I think we should just kick it over to my conversation with Bow, Johnny and Andy. Alright, guys, we have got one hell of a trio on the line here for our Mountain buck master class. I've got on the line with me here, Bou Martinic, Johnny Stewart, and Andy may Uh. Thank you all for making the time to be here for this. We've done a couple of these kind of roundtable master classes already here. People are really really liking it and and big hills and mountains have been one of those terrain types that people keep asking for, So I'm glad we can do it. Bo and Johnny especially, thank you guys for making the time to do this. Yeah, appreciate having us on. I'm I'm looking forward to this conversation. Yeah, me too. So so Andy, let's let's start with you, because as we've done with all these um you've been kind of the inspiration for who we talked to each week in this series, and pretty early on Bow and Johnny bubble to the top as people that we should get on if we were to talk about mountains or the Apple Achians or anything like that. So, can you give me a year scoop on why on why bow and Johnny? Yeah? Sure. Um. Actually, you know, probably out of out of all the types of habitat um, mountain and hunting is probably what I know the least of as far as white tails. UM. So I reached out to h quite a few guys that I, you know, respect, that are good hunters that kind of hunt you know, big hills or mountain country, and I wanted to get their opinion on who they thought would be uh good guests for this podcast, because it's it's it's not really my world, you know what I mean? I wanted to be I want that experience, and obviously you know you and I both want to learn more about this, um. But I have not haunted mountain bucks. Um. I've punted pretty much every other type of terrain, but not what I would consider mountain bucks. And so I reached out to several guys and UM, well, I guess I'll start with uh with Johnny. UM. I think I asked like four or five guys, you know, if you could, if you could pick out two guys who would you know, really be someone you know, two guys that are really experienced, that are real assistant in this type of country that you you think are a cut above the rest as far as skill and knowledge. Um, and I think pretty much everybody. One of their guys was Johnny Stewart. Um. And I've I don't know Johnny personally, but I've listened to a few of his podcasts and you know, I've really enjoyed them, and he just he just you know, it's his experience, you know when he talks, So you could just tell this guy has a lot of experience. He stresses scouting, and he's he's a hard worker, and any anyone like that that has uh those qualities you know, I know I can learn from and uh I want to listen to. And then Bow Bow is like, uh, I think he's perfect for this because um, when I asked bo, uh it was interesting, he said Johnny Stewart and then he said his dad, and his dad declined. Um. But what I thought was so cool about that is is Bow obviously has had an awesome teacher in his in his father. Um, so he's gonna have a lot of knowledge from his dad. That has has some great experience. But one thing I noticed about bo Is, He's a great teacher himself. He's got some incredible um YouTube resources on on mountain hunting and big hills um uh, some videos on there that I've watched that I think are just awesome, and he just conveys it, you know, really unique in a special way. Um Like, I always feel like I'm not a very good teacher. Like I I have experience and i have some knowledge, but I'm not always the best that explaining it. Bo Is is exceptional at that, So he just I think he's gonna just be perfect for this podcast. Both these guys are killers and have a lot of experience, So I'm just really looking forward to it. Yeah, I'm right there with Andy and and I agree. I think that from everything that I've you know, we're gonna we're gonna teacher horns for a little bit here bo and Johnny and then where it come down. So don't get too comfortable. But what else gonna say is that I agree, when it comes to bow, you know you're getting it done, but then you also are are sharing it with people in a way that's that's clear and digestible. And that is not a easy to do thing. And then as far as Johnny, I was here. I was listening to something from Johnny the other day, and I'm gonna get the details wrong, but he was telling the story about how his brother or brother in law or somebody was gonna stay in his house or something, and the only thing he was worried about, he said, don't you dare put any smelly flower sent a detergent in my laundry machine. Will be done if you do that. The level of dedication. I loved that. So Johnny, you're you're an a plus in my book right there. What what my or mind had that? And what I'm thinking about, you know, not all about money openly, Like what drives me is like my time to hunt and what I'm passionate about. You know, you know you have so much time hunt, going to hunt in season. You gotta kill that mountain deer, any mature deer in general. You gotta do everything right. Then I got my one dryer and washer that have not been What might tell my girlfriend stop? I said, I left my long underwear and you washed another compromise. She's like, I love it, I love it, and so and so with that, I guess let's get into it. We Andy and I both have a lot of things were curious to pick your brains about. Um. I think the first thing, if if I were to get kicked off first, the first thing that's on my mind is simply why it's it's why does hunting white tails in the mountains in this kind of really hilly, steep country. Why does that just get the hairs in the back of your neck sticking up? Why does that get you to be so obsessed that you would chastise your family members about the kind of stuff they put in your laundry machine? What is it about this that makes it so special? Uh? Johnny, well how would you? How would you describe that for us to get things started? Well, I want to first say thanks and Andy for the kind words. Um stick in my chest out here like a rooster. Ain't nobody around you know what I'm saying. But um, yeah, I think the biggest thing is the challenge and the deer that I hunt. Our public land, um, which not all mountains are, but a lot of mountainous area is vast pieces of land which is public. But um, anything I'd like to do in life, I'd like it to be challenging. I look for a challenge and then when um, you succeed and makes it that much better. It might be a year, might be two years. You might hunt a deer for three years. You might never get the deer, but look at all the knowledge you're gonna learn and hunt that animal. But the deer there or more nomadic. I mean there's places they'll concentrate on food and the wind, thermals, wind whatever you want to calm or just sporadic. You can't really um rarely maybe if you're up on top or something, can't really depend on the wind. So the deer have the odds. It's in their favor. Um, they take advantage of all their senses. And that's what I like. I like giving them that advantage, the odds. So I try to get at them to forget the odds in my favor as much as I can. And you need to because it's so much in their favor. So find that ed, you know, find an angle on them. But I think it's the most challenging. I've hunted probably six eight different states over the years. Some of them you know, more well known white tails states. Probably since I'm forty two, going to be forty two or I am forty two. You get to that age, you kind of the years ago so fast. But Um, I started hunting young teenager or whatever. But I got into hunting public land, trying different states when I was younger. UM, and I just gravitated to the more challenging hunt as far as white tails. Um, I've hunted some foreign country. I found it pretty much everything swamps, river bottoms, mountains, uh, you name it. Um. I went to visit my buddy. We were walking down the beach, him and his wife and me and my fiancee Stanners. It was over South Carolina. Just go jump into weeds and I know there's some deer were he had the shed hunting. It was like April, you know. So I founded with him down there South Carolina. But I've hunted a lot of different types of terrains and habitat. UM. I think it's the most challenging in the in the mountain. It's not just in the ruggedness, um accessibility and accessibility, so the odds are in their favor and it's uh, it's that challenge, not just in deer hunting, just anything in life. Uh. I'd like to be challenged, I'd like to try to figure them out. It's the toughest white chiel hunting in my experience. So yeah, that's kind of why I like one app makes sense to me. What about you, bo, what would you add? What I would add to that is it's from getting to hunt out west and on elk and some different animals in different places. It's the closest thing I've found to backcountry type adventure in the eastern US. And you know what Johnny said, the challenges the deer act like deer. You can everything is remote and vast and just it's just different. It's different of hunted farm country and and swamps in different places. And it's just something that although that the deer numbers are low and you can go literally days without seeing deer, but for some reason, it just keeps bringing me back. And and like like Johnny said, he explained it really well. The challenge of it is something that that I truly enjoy, and that the fact that you have the opportunity an extremely old age class of deer, Uh, it just drives me. No, it doesn't always work out that way, but the fact the fact that you have that opportunity and to be able to do it. It's just it's just a beautiful landscape to be and especially in October November, I can I can certainly see the appeal. Um. I haven't got to spend a ton of times specifically where you guys are, but I did hunt Southwest PA one time along a long while back, and then I spent a lot of time in you know, some of the I guess it's a bit further east than you guys, but some of the mountains and stuff in New York, and it's just beautiful country out there. And uh, combining that kind of scenery and that kind of wild space with white tails, Uh, there's just nothing not to like about that. Um, Andy, where where's your head at to start? Here? Because I always like to try to scratch her it's first, and that gets us always going somewhere good. So as as as being, you know, a dang good deer hunter yourself, but one who is not as experienced in this this most steep hilly country out there like this? What what are you trying to figure out first so that you can show up someday in Pennsylvania or New York or New Hampshire or something like that. And be effective. Where do you want to go with this? Yeah, so my my experience with the biggest hill country that I've haunted, UM, I've a fair amount of experience there, but it's it's like you know, three to four hundred foot bluffs, you know, so it's it's pretty rugged, you know, southern Ohio, you know that that that type of area. So I'm guessing I guess I want to ask, like, what's the differences, if anny, between just like your typical hill country, like something like that, UM as opposed to what you would consider mountain hunting or UM? Is there a is there a certain size or elevation type that you kind of decipher between the two. But I guess the main thing is is there any differences between those? I know, I know that's kind of a loaded question, but I just kinda want to see where you guys go with this one? How about you both? So? Yeah, it's actually something I struggle with defining the difference and when it turns from you know, big woods to mountain country and like what you're talking about in southern in Ohio, which I spent five or six years hunting in that type of train. I think a lot of it is very similar from the stands the standpoint of how the wind reacts and how the deer use that train to their advantage. But I think once you get into the more of the mountainous region where you're getting you know, anywhere from eight hundred feet to even six hundred feet of elevation gain and and drop, you know, from the top to bottom, and sometimes even bigger than that. I know in some areas of Virginia and North Carolina you get even even bigger than where we're at. But you have some different challenges with you know, depending on how the food the food is where they can be hanging out at one year, they might be hanging up towards the tops when it has a good oak crop and if there's you know, not not any acorns um. They might be down lower in the in the cherry trees and and some of the beach and stuff there. So there's the in the true I guess, mountain kind tree. I would say that that when you have they can vary as far as elevation goes and how they do that, but as far as how they move, it's very similar in in I guess how you would quote kill country, that would be I guess my best way in describing that that you there. Okay, you've got anything to add there, Johnny, that's a good question, Andy. I think, Um, when you say mountain, um, different people that live and live in different parts of the country are going to view in their head what they've you know, as a mountain. Where to me it is a kind of a UM, it's not. It's like a diverse there's a diverse habitat in the mountains and elevation change and flat so maybe Ohio, Um, it's kind of rugged two to three foreigner feet UM. And actually an area where I hunt um, near where bow is. It's a lot they call it the It's part of the plateaus of the you know, the Appalachian Allegheny Mountains. So there is a lot of flat europe on a lot of flat area. UM. But it's also considered mountains. UM. But I think the biggest thing that I look for, um, is it a hunting pressure, because it's there everywhere. But yeah, I mean, um, it's just um, it's a it's a lot. It's a lot of different habitat in the mountains. It's not just up and down um. But yeah, it's just um. It's really Uh, it's different. There's there's some different food sources, different elevation benches, and some like the crow foot type of moody dudes I call them. And it's just there is a lot of different different habitat in the definition to term mountains per se um. So it is kind of he's gonna learn that area, um and how the deer inhibit that area and and stuff like that. But so yeah, I can I can imagine like just because of I mean, oh, you're talking eight hundred six feet you know it kind of and maybe some of the areas you guys hunt. I mean that's that's at least to four times the size of the biggest stuff I've hunted. Um, So I imagine, Yeah, there's a lot there could be a lot more diversity and different types of habitat and and uh going on there. So you you mentioned a little bit about food. Um, you know with the oaks, you know typically you know maybe towards the upper portions and then the cherry and beach you know maybe down lower. What other food sources are you guys seeing that are really key for for deer like in this type of habitat, you know, maybe maybe take me throughout the season, like, um, you know early, you know, maybe mid season then even the late What do you guys see the deer kind of transitioning through throughout the season. Uh, let's start with you Johnny Well, Um, like you were. Like Andy said about um, Ohio, I wonder sometimes because Ohio is some rugged land, mountainous country that I wonder sometimes through the summer. I don't get much time down there. Um, but the population is low, but it's mainly um large strands of oaks and there's not much undergrowth, you know, browses definitely that kind of up in the u Alleghany's kind of upward me and bow Hunt and somewhat up into New York there. Um, it seems like there's a lot of brows, a lot of undergrowth. Um here too, the the Ohio's, the some of the West Virginia's, but also the clear cuts through the summer. Um, it's you can walk through the woods and see what they they are nibbling on. But I think like some of the deer in Ohio and look at the mountainous deer. The bodies ain't huge, but the racks are huge. And some say it's because of the minerals out there, um, and they can adapt just like a deer down south or smaller, they know how to adapt in their body. H might be smaller because the food isn't as plentiful, but the racks like maybe in Ohio it might be bigger because the minerals. But and like in the p A, I feel like there's through the summer that the deer are definitely pretty big. There's a lot of brows through the summer. It's just um, fresh growth, the fresh tips of grass, um, BlackBerry briars, fruits, I mean anything. It's pretty much general that they browsed through the summer. And the more diverse brows you can find, you're gonna find the deer and they'll roam bigger areas and just nip. But you know, you get into fall um. Like both said, the cherries, there's a lot of black cherries, big cherries in this part of p A that the deer people sometimes don't key on them. And if it's a good chairry, you're um. You get into October, they're going to be really fatten up in them are big open woods um. In some areas where we're hunting that part of p A has um that does have a mass of acorns, but not every year, so there's there's a food source and then um beach, but the beach are kind of dying off. But they also getting into November, UM into December, around probably in the middle of November, I start seeing a lot of palling and scratching at the ground. Uh they eat roots um. And I know in the winter, like this year in January, UM, the deer dug through the snow and eat berns. Like I watched it a deer for ten minutes. A button buck had his head in the whole pulling up tarns and just scratch for like ten minutes. And these other deer came in. Any of them know about it. But pretty much anything green um. And there's a lot of um, like it's uh tea berry and there's carpet pine. There's different types of green ground coverage up in some of these areas that we hunt, and you'll find the deer in the winter they're gonna go for that green. And these deer their browsers by nature, and this is what they're made to live off. And you know, we've got a lot of snow this year, but they're gonna come out healthy. And because they went in another winter pretty healthy and the deer numbers are still they got them where they need to be to where the deer are. They have enough acreage per deer to to forage on and be healthy going into the into the winter. And last year Greg shot his deer up there and it was no and he took the butcher and he said, the butcher said, where'd you get this out? You know in the Midwestern or no, I shot it in the fat on the back behind quarters, was I haven't. They're they're really healthy animals. It's just it was crazy to see that the deer, the brows and live in this forested area are covered with fat and that healthy. Um. As far as like getting in the you know you got your clear cuts in Ohio and mass is a big thing um down in that area. Um, if it's a good mass year, or they'll they'll travel to find or some places in Ohio I've hunted. I see. You know, you're a lot of bait in Ohio. So um, they might travel to find we're getting fed to it later in the year. That's the thing that will vacuum the deer out of the woods. Um not. Some of the big bucks are just loaners. They'll stay up in the up on the mountains if there is a corn crop. But some of the deer maybe if it's a bad acorn, and then like there might be someone feeding them, or it might be some type of ad nearby that will kind of pull them dear that way later in a year. But uh so, yeah, that's what I got through you there, all right? How about do you bow anything anything else there? Yeah? I mean I think Johnny covered a lot of it. But what I'll say in addition to that, I definitely think like as you're in the you know, summertime and everything, they're looking for more of those minerals and even some of the newer clear cuts that have a lot of green on them, uh, that are growing up there browsing a lot, and as you get into the beginning of hunting season, so when you're kind of focusing on it in October, if you can find a black cherry crop, that is incredible, But they don't seem to last very long on the ground, so it's a short window of time where those can be good apple trees that you can find in some of the bottoms that's that can be a really great thing to find, especially if you find, you know, alone tree or an old orchard. You know, a lot of places through Pennsylvania there was little towns in a lot of these places that are um that are actually public land now and they have planted a bunch of apple orchards. So you can find a bunch of apple trees there, and then you know, as you and acorns obviously, but not not all areas that are in the mountains have oak trees in general. And actually I've found that areas that don't have oaks, they can be tougher to figure out exactly what they're feeding on because they're browsing more. But at the same time, they're more consistent year after years their spots that don't have those, I find more consistent trail cam data. I could hunt some of the similar spots year after year, and there are a lot more consistent than an area or deer relying more on acorns that they might you know, if this one ridge, you know, it was covering acorns this year, but a mile over was the next year, then they might you know, move quite a bit. So that all depends and and even so like the biggest thing I'm looking for is the diversity of it and having a lot of brows. Like Johnny said to me, you know, they'll dig up firms, ferns, eat the bulbs off, like the dig a whole bunch of stuff, BlackBerry briars, um and and logging cuts. I mean, logging cuts are huge food source depending on the age, but really at any age, logging cuts have some sort of a food source. That just depends on which ones and and for me, I like to focus on the ones that are a three to eight year old range because they got brows that are you know, growing up, you know enough where they can feed a decent amount. And and then also um, so that's kind of as you get through the hunting season, and then as you get into like a later season, the fresh logging cuts either brand new up to three years old seems to really bring them in one because it's getting a lot of sunlight and you got some say tops that are laying down that they'll browse on. Um. It almost acts as a as a food plot for them. And that in those later seasons, and you know, and if it's a really cold year as you get in the hunting season in January. Any areas around spring seats while everything else is kind of frozen tougher than the dig they can dig it up because it's softer, they can get to it um more greens, as Johnny said. There So that's that's important. And another important thing to note about food is not all areas and the mountains are created equal as far as food goes. You know, you get in some of the places like I've hunted in southern Ohio or even in north central Pennsylvania, we have you get these giant it just seems like most of it's just oak trees, and if you don't have good acorn crop, it's tough on the deer and there's not much under brows. And I'm not a biologist, but from what I've read, they call a lot of those areas old heath forests, which means like the soil is acidic, so it's not producing a lot of that good undergrowth that comes up for them to feed on. But brows is definitely probably their their primary diet when it comes to that. But would you call that old what forest? Old heath h E A t H. And I'm again I'm not saying that I don't know much about them, but that's just I've been doing some research on trying to figure out why these types of forests look a certain way or why some of them grow a certain way. And and that was one of the things that I've found. And you know, some of the areas I've scouted with Johnny, we've noticed, you know, I don't have much browse and typically are rocky or the soil is just kind of a cidic and you get some of those like we call on rock oaks. I'm not sure if that's the technical term for them, but they're just they're they're not as good producers as some of the other areas. So when you're describing all this stuff, I the first thing I'm thinking about is how do you find all of these different random types of food sources? Right, And there's big mountainous country, big woods in many cases, and you're talking about brows that you know, it's hard to identify unless you're there, and and it's not something as obvious as oh, there's an a d acre cornfield. Of course there's gonna be a huge draw. It's more like, oh, here's an oak tree, Oh, here's a certain set of bushes oh, here's a tech acre cut um. And what this, what this has got me thinking about is the amount of country you try to focus on when figuring out your strategy for the season. You know, Andy and I here hunting in mixed egg land in Michigan. You know, we could have a sixty acre property and an ad a property and ten acre property and and be able to get in on deer on any of those small types of properties because stuff is so concentrated. There's so many deer into small areas with great food sources and very specific betting areas. So give me eighty acres and I might be able to do just fine. But when you're talking these vast expanses with food very spread, with betting probably very spread, and with lower deer numbers, I gotta believe that you just have to operate at a different scale. So this is a very open ended question. But Boat, how do you think about the scope of the amount of land you need to work with to find a buck? I mean, are you going to this thing? Okay, I'm gonna really try to figure out this thousand acres or I've got to figure out this two acres or this twenty square miles what are you operating at? What level are you operating at? Yeah, that's that's always that's always a tough question. But if I'm looking in a new area a lot of I mean, first of all, and folks now where I think pressure is coming from, and I focus on areas that are away from major cities, towns, anything like that. That what the way I would say is, like, you know, your typical weekend warrior can would have trouble getting to They'd have to make a pretty serious effort at getting there. Luckily, you know, a lot of the where I live at is kind of in the middle of nowhere, so that helps with that. But from there, I'm looking at where I can find the most diversity. So if I'm looking on on X and looking at the the aerial photo, I'm trying to find where you you can you can tell on the map um if you're in federally owned public land. On X has a timber cut feature, so you can actually see those. But even if it doesn't, you can see different timber cuts, and then you can also kind of see where the hemlocks are, and then you can see where there's more like say, bigger trees. You can't you can't really tell the brows a whole lot from looking into aerial map, but usually timber cuts have brows in them, and depending on the way the photo looks, you can you can estimate the the age of that cut and to be able to look at it. But I'm looking for the most habitat or habitat diversity and trying to be able to figure out, you know, what the the vegetation looks like from afar, and then I'll narrow it down and try to get in there in the spring and actually walk it. And I know that's not always possible um as far, especially if you're traveling from out of state, But nonetheless, I think the most important thing is getting boosts on the ground. So even if you have say, um, you know, five or five or seven day rout hunting, you're going into an area instead of just you know, setting up on the first hot side, you see really walking the lay of the land and figuring that out. And because there's gonna be you know, there's gonna be cover that's different, that looks different than um you know that you won't see on a map app there might be a small patch of something, and then how I correlate that with terrain. So if you can find you know, as you're thinking of anywhere else in hill country, anywhere that has trained, and you think of your typical you know, your funnels. Um, A lot of times a deer like the bed out and around the points of the of the mountains, and which isn't always the case, but they like the bed out around those points. They like to bed on the inn or on the edges of timber cuts. So those are all things that I'm I'm thinking of and I'm noting, and I'm trying to find areas that compound a bunch of those features, and that's where I'm gonna focus on. So when I get in there, those are the areas I'm going to first. And I might end up, you know, walking half mile or a mile a different direction and finding something better that I didn't see on a mass. But that gives me a really good starting point. Yeah, that makes sense. What about you, Jenny? Yeah, both said it great. I mean, um, it's definitely a diverse habitat terrain or age class of the forest cuttings. If you can see a lot happening on an aerial onyx uh or papo there's a lot going on. Chances are it's going to meet the needs of the deer there because they need all they're going to utilize, utilize all that throughout there there day or or how you want to say it. But the first thing I do, I'm because I'll look at the onyx and I'll find um where because most part I'm hunting area that's pressured public Well it is public land, but where are the hunter is going to be? I find that diverse area? Okay, where's the hunter parking? Where's he coming in? At? Is their parking spot? Um harder to access areas I'm kind of stuck on maybe a five square mouth area now that I've been into for six eight years. Uh. Some cuttings, some roads cutting through it, kind of flat gradual um feet in elevation change, kind of a plateau um. But there's a lot of this beach brush in these areas and under saplings that grow up that make a lot of cover that you can't see from on it. So you want to get them boots on the ground. But also what I'm learning now is a lot of guys are starting to hunt this public land. These mountain deer in an area that I was hunting five years ago. That was like a mile and a half walk gated road all the way back and out on the point of this mountain goes out around and I had good luck out there with deer and that's why I seen the biggest buck that would go there. And then in the last couple of years, i'd run cameras. I didn't even hunt there. I just run cameras randomly, and I get more hunters and more hunters, and it seemed like people were going to these It wasn't. It was time consuming to walk there half hour or so forty five minutes. Um, it was a pretty gradual trail, easy to get to, and um, these people are starting to go that I'm gonna get back in there. And so this year I kind of started hunting halfway back and that's where the bucks were hanging. They weren't and I walked the logging road out and seeing cameras, seeing stands in the sign would fall off like I could really see sign, you know, fresh shine, uh, dear ship tracks, rubs, you would see the screens, but um, prior to the the yearlings. But the bigger deer are really they really know their area and the hunters are pretty typical at what they do, and they're onto them like white on rice these deer nos. So that's exactly what I'm looking for. But you've got to have the boots on the ground or at least get to an area, drop a bunch of cameras and see I'm not just looking for the deer. I'm looking for the hunters. See how they're going, where them guys are hunting. And but that's the biggest thing, like both said, the diverse diversity. You know, it has a little bit of everything happening, a little bit of everything. Terrain, Um, so now he's deer. And then like I said, yeah, hard to reach location, um, and maybe where the wind So maybe the winds blown in one direction a lot. It's hard. You might have to go down over this mountain and come back up this other mountain. Just the access said well, um, because most of the people will maybe go straight to that spot. And the deer is onto the hunters. They know they're onto the gig the gigs up. So I kind of do different things than what the normal hunter does because pretty much, um, they're onto you, the mature deer that are living there. Um. So That's the biggest thing I try to find is all the pressure it is affecting this deer. Because if it wasn't for the pressure in these areas, you can hunt that rub. That's great, and they would they would probably can hunt the sign a lot better because they won't be as nocturnal or be afraid to come to that area until right before dark or something. So you got to kind of not take I mean, the sign tells you the deer is there, but if the pressure is there that they're worried about survival, they're definitely afraid to do recording and you might just be awful little bit of that diversia. You've got to kind of figure out, you know, you kind of talk. And that's another thing I like, you're always thinking. My brains always turning and learning different year to year, different deer move into the area. It's always evolving, the forces growing, it's changing different deer or see it in a different way. That's why I'd like being up there and learning and learning everything. And then I talk about finding these little nooks. So we found a couple of big Bucks this year and a hundred fifty class pushing. They were kind of hanging around together, and they were kind of in that area where the people were going all the way back this road and I was about half way back and there was a calm scens and little nooks were these deer. No, they're safe, that nobody's hitting up and uh so, I actually a couple of days ago, um I headed in the area they were coming from, not where I was getting more camera, but just across the creek, and I did some hiking under some big tracks. You know. I got down in a way from the road, and I wouldn't be surprised if he hangs out in there. A lot of lankers in the guinning and shed hunt, but it's an area that it's easy to overlook in an area, and really with all the cover in the areas, now this is area I'm hunting. So I mean an area that might be an Ohio, West Virginia. Some open woods might be different, but I'm sure there's a nook or theme. But these deer, these mature deer that are um looting these humans, they're gonna use that. You might have to get out there and walk and hang cameras to find it. But that's the that's the thing I find it nowadays, and it might be like five acres or something, just noting little bit, you know, maybe that's what you call his bedroom, but just knows where he's safe during a day. Then they do, Uh, there's a lot of randomness to keep you know, predators, guests, and I finally a lot of these mature bucks kind of random movements and if you know, maybe sometimes we're trying to hunt him through a camera and he might be day lad a short. Um. That's what keeps them alive is doing random you know, try to earn a winner. And it's like I'm like, I would put a camera here and he walks Like I'm what, why would you walk there? That's not the path at least, you know, But it's just how they are nomadic in a certain way. Um. And it's just all that that I that intrigues me. And I thought, then I did talk to us people that probe fund scientific reason why do you do this or that? Some say that it's there's no signs behind by how they move, you know, But the biggest thing I find is pressure. Um, Like even the both said earlier, they're they're made to survive and carry on and and their biggest predator is the human and so that's how they're is deer get in the way of adapting to the humans. So so on that note, then you know that finding these little nooks, finding these little spots where these big old bucks do feel safe in these vast environments, it's got to be awfully hard to pinpoint that little tiny nook out of five thousand acres or ten tho acres or whatever the scale is that we're operating on here. You mentioned several times trail cameras and and I've also seen just you know, across your social media and different things like that, you seem to be pretty prolific when it comes to how you use trail cameras and the information you turn up. Can you just detail how specifically you're using cameras in these environments, because I know it's different than what I'm doing here in southern Michigan or Iowa or whatever. You know, how many cameras are you running across these landscapes? You know exactly what kind of spots are you putting them on? You know, what is the key information you're trying to get. I'd love to understand all that detail. Definitely, scrapes are a big thing. I think communicating a kind of mean bow hunt. UM. Definitely have them on them, and sometimes there's a lot of hunters. I try to get them up the three and I always try to honestly, as opposed to when I was twenty years old. I stay away from trails. There's not so many trails up in this series because it's kind of like we're kind of roam UM, so I try to stay away from true now if i'm looking for them, a trure animal, but definitely scrapes and yeah, like that milk I'm I'm talking about um. And then a lot of times, since they are nomatic, i'll put three. Can't tell people don't depend on one camera trying to get three or four, and I try to. I don't like to get a broadside shot at a deer because a lot of times your truser won't catch it trying to get if he's walking. I don't like a straight on maybe like on the Stooty five kind of UM broadcast with camera. But every time I go in the woods, i'll take well we're onto hiking, I'll take two or three. I'll just pm around my waist. Sometimes i'm pressure with Tom. I just want to run in the woods and look around. I'll take two or three, because if you take one, you end up I've done it. Your walk look for the best spot, and you get back to the truck and you just throw about your camera. So I try to take a leach too. Then you could drop one and find a decent law. But um, as far as where I guess maybe um um kind of more of a a little bit of a pinch that's kind of where he has to walk, but it's usually not narrowed down to like like a trail. I just kind of feel like he's going to move through here, whether it's covered, he's going to gravitate an edge. Um, but definitely scrapes maybe. And I found sometimes rubs aren't always scientific to the point where he's there A lot. I find sometimes like he put it on rubs, and how do you know he didn't just kind of um make those rubs out of anger one time he come through and he might not ever come back again. But that's they're all individuals, and they might be claiming that terror reporters. Sometimes I think they put rubs there because they're not actually there as much as they want to kind of mimic them being there by putting the nine puss there um, and he might be somewhere else. Um, but it's weird. I find there's a lot this year. It just gonna be good. This is gonna put cameras here. I got him, I'm gonna get him on camera, and I'll leave it go, you know, getting into October. I'll let it go a week or so. I want to see what's there, and I like to check my camera. Sometimes I check him at night. I don't want to ruin the spot if it's maybe they're cutting. I feel like the winds blown in there. Um. I'll wait two nine o'clock at night because I feel like they're they're guard for humans. There's probably never been pressured at night by humans, and it's kind of like whatever. But I'll check cameras at night. Um. But I found this year a lot of would put cameras maybe like a scrape or leaving to rubs, and he's coming through here, and it's I feel like the spots like put cameras and thought i'd see here. This year, I didn't get anything. I spotsors I'll just throw in here, and it turned up dear so trying to get a bunch of came Um, like in p a team twenty of them, I'm running. Um. But the more you have, the more knowledge of the game by getting them out there and just learning and seeing what's there, because like I said, I don't I think it's going to be a good spot in here. It's the bucks, then the other spot. Then I start putting pieces through the puzzle together and the one do a hunt a dishes. It's kind of he was here in September and then my cameras up and on octoberver it was a clear FECh. Guy started hunting there and he disappeared and then he was hitting this one scrape and I actually set up on him one morning and I screwped them out of there, and then um, he gradually moved downstream, so he like started here, and I think it was all because of hunting. Sure that this gear adapted his lifestyle through the hunting season, but UM, I just feel like the more you're seeing, you know, maybe it is a buck bet or it's hard. I guess it's kind of hard to explain that if he got two or three cameras, you go out there and you know, you find a sign just putting cameras up. Um, if you just got a hunch, sometimes it's you make mind that seeing that edge. Maybe. UM. I can't really describe because it's all it's like a feeling. Um, it's not all has the same type of thing, you know. It's just how they feel because they don't. That's how they are wired. It's how they feel. This feels good. I'm gonna move from here. I don't I don't see any hunters in here. And actually the deer issue was walking out on the logging road that went all the way back from that point where them guys hunting high noon. It was seventy degrees and fifty yards off that longer I had it off that longer road. I had to deep stord and it was me and I thought about bogus. Um. I was walking out on that logging road. I was walking like a human. And I know it was one of the big hunters being here. Was in there maybe, but he was let me fifty seven yards. He was pissed. He knew that at me every time I walked because in his head, I think he wanted to cross that longer road. It was like, that's a human. It just pissed him off, but he knew that he was safe, and they're fifty years that the scene and knew people walked out. But it's just it's just wild to be around him and experience that. Every time, ever, I stopped and looked old enough, and then I walked like a human, and just the noise of a human walking through the leaves just irritated him. And he was like kind of above most of them, the hunters, and I'm sure he's still out there now. And then, um, but yeah, every time I started walking like him, and he just like pissed snore at me, and it was that's where he was along the bucks moved or in high high noon, you know. But a lot of randomness. I mean, you know, Mark, you I could go on and just take one story into another and keep talking. But um, yeah, you know, if I get lost, I'm like, where was that? I can relate to that, Johnny, I can relate to that myself. Uh it's funny you talk about how these deers sometimes just get lost themselves in in that. I mean, their movements are random. It's it's hard for us to pin down, and uh god, I wish they'd be more considerate of us and make things more simple, but they don't. Uh bow, What about you when it comes to cameras, What's what's your take on that specifically? So I do run a lot of cameras, and I do weigh a lot of input on cameras. But I have I have kind of a couple of different strategies. So if I'm I'm hunting a brand new area and this is my first time going in, UM, I typically try to put cameras at different elevations and then also around different vegetation type features. So but them are on scrapes. So I'll definitely say that, and that if that's any time of the year, So whether that's in the summertime, um they'll still work those looking branches. I usually spray like a foehead Gillian sent on it, and um they'll they'll work those looking branches just about year round. But so I'll try to get different elevations to be able to to learn it. And a lot of times I won't even hunt that area the first year, so I'll just run cameras, leave them up all year, come back this time of year and pick them up and try to learn from it. So I'll try to spread them out quite a bit. And then as I get to focusing on these these areas, say I find a specific buck, like this past year, I was hunting um, a specific dear that that was just it was incredible. And but after I ran and I think it was thirteen cameras in this area, I ran a lot more than normally would in a new spot, but I found a shed in the spring, so it made me want to want to try to learn a little more. And out of all those cameras, and I had them not that far apart, like some of them would only be forty yards apart, but it was on a different elevation down below UM on a different scrape. I ran a lot of well, I didn't run a lot of camera that ran a couple of cameras on some big signpost rubs, which is something that was kind of new to me this year. But I found I had really really good results from a few of these specific rubs. And what I learned about this deer was he was only using a certain portion of it, and there's a lot of hunting pressure, but the hunting pressure was on the top and also from the bottom. So on this steep side hill that was just thick hemlock cover. You can't you know, when I would when I would hunt in there, you can't see more than twenty yards in any direction. And there was three cameras that that deer focused on that was there quite a bit. So now like going in to this year, what I would do is cluster more cameras, you know, trying to figure out, you know, where he might be living, at least for during the hunting season. And so maybe I might stay around those elevation lines, but move down the ridge further and you know, put some more and try to you know, get more consistent daylight photos, um more stuff like that. But I'm I'm focusing around different train features and and then also vegetation features that I talked about and but scrapes to the majority of it. And then if I say, if I know of an area, say there's a timber cut that, um, I don't know anywhere from ten to twenty years old, it's growing up quite a bit. They tend to like to bed in those types of areas. I'll run cameras on the inside of those, on some of the logging trails where there's um, where there's you know, say I find a big community types great big linking branch broke off, I'll run him in there. And a lot of times hunters will have trouble hunting in those areas because there's not any good trees to get in because they're not big enough to put a tree stand in but there, but they still they provide a lot of cover and security for the deer. So I'll run them closer to those betting areas and just I won't check them unless i'm you know, specifically hunting them. But cameras are a huge learning tool for me personally. And what I'll do with with that data is I'll take all my cameras for the year, and I have like a um it's a Google sheet, so like an Excel spreadsheet essentially that I'll I write down the location, the specific location that I had it on. They all the general area at the specific location. Say I say I'd name it Hemlock Side Hills great, and then I have the buck identification how I would kind of either name it or figure out a way to identify that deal And now write down the date, time, weather, wind directions, and anything else that might be prevalent to it. It just kind of keep a running log of that. So if I'm hunting a specific deer, you can learn a lot by doing that, because I've found that even when I run a lot of cameras don't get this information. It goes in and out of my head just as fast as a lot faster than I like, and I don't remember all of it. So for me, by writing that down or typing it up, I guess it helps me to be able to review it and learn because you know you can you can definitely have success. Uh and you know in your first year hunting a spot, but that historical data from cameras is is huge. If you can hunt an area, you know, multiple years in a row, you can learn so much and and and you have to take that a little bit with the grain salt because you know, as food sources shift and change, and like we mentioned, you know earlier about saying there's not any acorns. If that area had acorns, all those things can change. But it's, you know, an odds multiplier. It's helping you gain some more knowledge that you wouldn't have had otherwise. So I'm running in Pennsylvania alone, I'm running probably around I think just over thirty cameras right now. So let me run an assumption by you guys and tell me if I'm right or wrong. Here. Uh, it's my assumption as I'm hearing you guys talk about these deer, that these bucks are being that they're relatively nomadic, as you guys have described that when you're running trail cameras, you're not really getting a specific pattern like you might get by me here. I might be able to tell you based on trail cameras or observation that man, this buck is gonna come walking over this creek crossing every other day or three times a week or something. Maybe you can't get that level of a pattern on these deer because their range is so vast and their food embedding is so diverse that they're much more random in those movements. So a is that correct? And then be assuming that's correct? Is the main thing you're trying to get with these trail cameras simply confirmation of their general presence at the time of year. So can you just confirm, Okay, the big eight pointer is back in the area. And if I know he's back in the area, I'm gonna hunt this general region because he's here. Is that the case or do you actually nail down like he's coming through here this specific spot for this specific reason and you pattern to that level of detail. Does that make sense? Bo, Yeah, it does, and your assumption is right. There's I personally, maybe Johnny has a different opinion on it, but I have not been able to pattern a specific dear to the level of I know he's gonna come by this spot, um, you know, every three days. So like so, what I'm trying to do is get the general area. And so if I'm looking at the specific hunting season, what I'll take like that data from saying i pull my camera in mid October and I'm gonna be hunting the following week or whatever that is. It depends on that type of time of year, on how I would hunt that. I might you know, hunt that specific spot. You know, maybe it's a good scrape that's he in October and I'm hoping he's gonna come by again. But a lot of times, like you said, I'm just trying to confirm he's in the area. And you know, say I had that picture October and I'm in there on November one. Well, I'm gonna focus more on this dope betting area that might be a quarter mile away that has some similar you know, he has the security and is what's on his mind right now, which is the does so those are So that's how I'm kind of using in that data. And then so that's for the specific season. If I'm using it, say I had the camera picture this year and I'm looking at it next year, one of the things I'll pay attention to is the time of year that he came through, the specific date, and but more importantly is the the weather and any other conditions that might make, you know, make him repeat himself or maybe you know, during this four days stint, you know, every year from November four to seventh, he might go back to this area, check this specific dope betting area or whatever it might be, or that that you know, he comes to the scrape in the third or fourth week of October. There's a lot of guessing that goes into it. But I try to use that data and then also my knowledge for the of the area to give my you know, I guess my my best guest as to how I would set up in that in accordance to that. Okay, and what about you, Jenny yeah, I think it's more, um a confirmation that the deer exists. But there is i'd say a little more of a pattern when you're into the middle and October, when it's the hunting pressure is lower in these bigger areas and these vast mountain mountainous or breezons or whatever you wanna call them, um, and there's the does aren't heat, they're just kind of they're gonna hit these scrapes to where that one big eight. I had him hitting the scrapes pretty regularly right around dark, just after dark. But it was like he was the thermals. I know, we're coming to Daryl getting drawn down this drainage, and it's like, I just want to cry because I'm like, when he's on this type of pattern, he's doing it religiously, not I mean like clockwork. But I'm getting some decent pictures from every couple of days come out of these scrapes. And because he got the odds are in his favor and that's what he wants and that's what he lives by having the odds in his favor. So that was I didn't really hunt there. I kind of got in there. Then I got in the door or rut and you know what, he never in touched the scrapes, you know. So it's like and that's this is a new deer that I had found this year was a place I found shed hunting last year. So I'm just learning about this animals like a whole new world, you know, a whole another deer, but the the other one I was kind of after this year. Just for example, that two here that um I was running cameras trying to chase is was that older more mature uh, nine year old eight year old to where um I had some pictures of them. This is going on four years now, and I had him in this one area, UM he was three or four years old, really aggressive, had the whole clear cut, rubbed up beds everywhere. And I mean the first time I hunted and had my bow back on, I'm probably a hundred forty class three or four year old. Just really a lot of test tossed their own aggressive deer and UM claim that area more of like a twenty year old human, uh that has a lot of a young guy that has a lot of maybe wants a fight or something comparable to that. Where the next year, UM I went in there, and he just said he wasn't there, So you can kind of their individuals are differency and kind of use year to year knowledge from your cameras and you're hunting um. So the next year I went in there, and but it didn't happen because he disappeared, he moved. I didn't catch him until two years later. I picked him up and then I started following him again. It was because the deer die off a jockey for positions and where they feel more comfortable, where they want to live, and all this is going on out there. And and but once you get to sometimes in that groove around six seven eight, you can kind of get a little more patterned, like so this eight point I was hunting this year. I caught him up in this clear cut and then he kind of moved. He's worked his way downstream, like further away from humans as the season went on, and he's up in that clear cut and I never I didn't hunt it because it was early in October. Then he caught him in that one day I spoke to him to further downstream, like November, he come in. I thought at first it was like the first time I really started hunting rot and I had him right there, and um the wind just swirled hit him and he took off. But I think I could use the knowledge I have for my cameras and my hunting this year because I feel like in his age, I feel like he's gonna be there next year, and I kind of can kind of know where to hunt him throughout the season to catch him. But as far as the cameras are considered, UM, I can maybe pattern, like both said, maybe within a time zone a few four or five days, I might be able to catch him here because um data that I collected from this year, Like I said, you get to that three, four or five year old age, it might they're not really mature yet. They're still kind of maybe learning their area and where they want to live. But like that big a point this year, Um, like I said, he kind of sit the scrace. But when he started doing that, God's word really in his favor. You couldn't even hunt him. But mainly confirmation that the deer is there, and then I try to find this kind of away from the rest of the deer heard there but not there. And that's what I said. It's like a balance scale. I tell people, it's like, yeah, this situation and going this way and it's tipping the scale this way. But that's this situation because people say sometimes when I talk on a podcast, I'll say this one time, that the complete opposite the other time, because because sometimes you need to do that. You'll be using this tactic and your tip on the scale this way, then boom, you you got to go to complete opposite and do it. But that's why I like talking about having a lot of tools in your toolbox and the different you know, if you're changing a boat, you a twelve millimeter, but you know the next boat might be a three quarter inch or something. You need a bunch um, a bunch of information, bunch of knowledge to use a bunch of tools in your toolbox. But as far as the the cameras mainly confirmation and um. But like I said that, and I tried to grab a take away from the rest of the herd because they aren't they don't see themselves as a yearling and too like they're their own individual um. Animals leave mature deer and they lived differently to survive and carry these rocks. So he hold on, mark, if I could step in here for a second. I wanted to bring up a point that Johnny kind of um what he was talking about there. I mean, Johnny, I mean that was a similar situation. I hunted with Johnny this past year and actually killed my buck, which is a buck that he had a lot of history with and going in there. He had brought up you know about this, dear, and you know two years ago of trail camera data you know, in in and around those dates, you know, spending time in that area. Remember, John, we were talking about that when you were you were showing me pictures of the buck end up killing when he was in that area a few years in the path around that time of year, but he had disappeared for a couple of months and you know, kind of going on some of that historical data there, mm hmm, Yeah, definitely. It's amazing how that was. It was. It was a little bit of a better acorn crop down low and years I knew he was there on that point and around that mountain. It was hard to get to and um, he had a lot of odds in his favor. Was that was a pretty rugged area, good elevation. UM's not many people when he had covered he just um, He doesn't sit and think in his head, Okay, this is what I need, like you checking the checklist. It's the feelings he gets as he lives through his life. What he needs as security is the food cover and and that's Um. And like I said, it's all about getting the odds. He has the odds in his favor most of the time, and you've got to find that angle on them to get the odds in your favor. Yeah, that historical doubt on that dear Bow got Um told us he was there and actually had a camera running a couple hundred you canden a couple hundred yards from rebumped them, and it was a cell cam. I ran, I didn't have a picture. It was a big scrape on his point, like you would think he'd hit it. I had him a couple of times in October game in November, Dever caught him on that big scrape. There was like four scrapes right on this point within ten fifteen yards of each other, and him a couple of times in November. Then I think Bow got his deer. Was I don't know it was December Bow that you shot your deer. I didn't even have him on and I know he was he was laying within a hundred two hundred yards And that's great. Just tell you like that throws a lot out the window right carry you know, what do you think? Andy? Where's your head on this? What do you what do you want to move towards? Next? Yeah? Well, Um, but you touched on this a little bit. Um, I wanna just ask a little bit at least about uh buck betting. Um, you know specifically these these older books that you that you guys are left or after. Um you mentioned you know the points and you know kind of inside the edge of the clear cuts, which is basically what I see too down in the rugged hill country that I hunt. Um. Is there any other locations in the mountains where you're finding these older books? Bed? Um? And are you seeing this? Kind of maybe a two or three part questions so you guys can talk on it for a bit. But are you I know you guys are saying that you are seeing as they get older. UM, some historical data as far as like showing up and in certain areas during certain times this season, but stay outside of the rut, are you guys seeing um? These books stay relatively tight to a core betting area, um, during that time frame say maybe say like you know, early season, you know through you know, late in October or something before they start kind of venturing out more. Are they are they staying roughly in an area? And and then also like in hill country, you know typically you see most of the betting on the lee side. Is it the same you know? Do you guys see that the same in the mountains or are there some variance? Is there? Um? How about you both? So yeah and uh yeah to a lot of your points there. But so the leeward the leward side of the hill, they definitely um favor to bed. Now. I will not say that's a that that that's what they're going to do, um, But a lot of times you can do that scenario. We just talked about with my dear from this last year. That's what he was doing leeward side, um, down over the hill. But a lot of the times, you know, they they like they like that thick cover, but they also like to be able to see. So whether that's using the terrain, say they're over on that leeward side, just over like where it's where it gets super steep down below and they can look at it and then either have some cover to their back, but they want to be able to see. And then when it comes to say a log and cut, um, either you know, towards the edge where they can see out on some of the big open timber, or on the interior of those cuts where you have like a little opening. You know a lot of areas we have gas wells, old gas wells from seventies and eighties, UM, that will create these little openings, or wuld be an old log landing. And but they like to be able to see. There's there's again there's always variance, is there. But for the most part, I've noticed that these bucks, even if they're in a thick cover, they always have a good visual and more more so than the wind. I think the wind is huge, but I feel like they're there. Visuals are a huge part in that. And so that that would be UM. But as far as um you know, whether some bucks stay in there, you know, a core area during that time of year, or if they're spread out. That honestly comes down to the specific deer. I found deer that are more repeatable. As far as bres, I think they're betting. And when I say, you know that might be a five to fifteen acre area on what I would consider their core bedroom. Um, and then there's other deer that one deer might be bedding out at this point and there might be a couple of rods over if you days later, and that they kind of move around a little bit, right. I definitely think that that the food is the biggest dictation of that, and then also their own personality and how they they kind of react. But if you had an area that has a bunch of different food and it kind of meets all their needs, they don't typically want to go just venturing out outside of the run for for no good reason. That's just again some of my experience with it. How about you, Johnny. Anything they had there yeah, um, both said a pretty good definitely a visual in their mind. They got an escape route um planned if something comes in UM. And like I said, I don't think they sit there, okay if someone comes this way around that way, but they just can feel it. Um. Definitely maybe some coverage from back and see out front. And some of these areas that I hunted last year were really rugged down near Ohio and they goorn into the hunting season when the people are starting to hunt. They're in the heart of the rugged the ward sides down low to where they might venture top when the when the thermals come down. UM, mainly of a visual scene around them, maybe a little bit of cover big a lot of times in them a wide open big oaks and that it's just a big treat. I lay up against maybe a log um And then sometimes they you know through October, when they're there, their feeting when the pressure is low might be just they might just lay down for an hour the top of a ridge or somewhere where they could see. UM. But yeah, it's like both said in the individual preference to where like I said that one three year old that year he was all bedding in that clear cut. I haven't seen it since that's what he did. He felt comfortable there. Um, there was a lot of more flat land and it's not typical of the area I've been talking about here that I'm picturing my head where these eight points are don't have a lot of um elevation change. It's kind of plateau ish type area to where I think there's a lot of random bedding. Um, I'm going to really get into where that big eight point is here um, and hike that and maybe try to find and you're gonna watch your bed, um that a deer will lay down and maybe the leaves will be pressed down. Then it might be a day or two and the bed's gone, you know what I mean. So that's one thing to think about, is observe a bed and it's not going to stay there forever, you know. So even sometimes I ran cameras to where I see a deer bed down in front of my camera. Then you look at didn't even see it didn't even look like a deer lay there. So keep that in mind. I've been kind of keep an eye on that. Bet only lasts so long. Um, So that's something to think about when look for beds. Why don't I see a lot of beds because they don't especially be later for an hour so and he gets up and the wind comes blows range and until a deer lay there. But definitely they just got to feel secure for the time they're laying there. For one reason or another. Odd's got to be their way, whether it's sight, smell, you know, we're just really thick and they're hidden. Um So yeah, it could be definitely a wide wider range it's it's hard to just keep a black and white answer, um, because there is a lot of different things I experience and seeing. Yeah, really well, yeah, And to add on that a little bit, you know, as Johnny was talking, I was thinking a little bit more like as far as identifying like specific areas where a deer my bet or a buck my bed is. Like, so when you're looking out at those points as leeward bridges around you know, around those points some of the this isn't always the case, but a lot of the times, you'll find rubs that are kind of on their exit trails. And typically when I know I'm you know, getting closer to a potential like kind of betting spot, the rubs will start to cluster a little more. So you start seeing them sporadic up on top of the ridge. As they start diving down over on like say a not stuff beaten down trail, you'll start to see them getting closer together and closer together. And and you don't always find a specific bed, but that that to me, has been one of the more consistent things that I found. Or if you're looking at like a timber cut, if you start finding a lot of rubs on the edges of them. Uh, then you know that buck might be on the interior a little bit and and you know, so you kind of have an idea. I mean, I think hunting specific beds is is extremely difficult. And but how thing that general area of where they're betting and and figuring out what they're you know, a specific deer, what they're using more often than than not. And that's where you know, cameras going to play as far as you know, putting them around that potential betting areas on you know, big primary scrapes. Uh, you know, maybe it is a rub line or whatever it might be. But by running cameras around there, you kind of figure out which ones they like to use more than others. But um, there's no, there's not always a pattern. But if you're looking at the odds again, trying to get the odds in your favor, figuring out that betting, you know, after understanding kind of the train and some of the vegetation, they're like looking for that sign that that leads up into that. So that's um, I guess that was just a little bit of an ad on I was thinking about. Yeah, so when it comes to actually hunting these deer. You know. One of the things again just kind of comparing and contrasting my home turf yours. You know, here it's you can clearly, you know, determine dear bed in this kind of spot, and they're gonna feed in this kind of spot, and they're gonna travel in between the two. And that's usually pretty easy to tell where those things are happening. And you know what direction that travel is gonna happen to, right, because it's you know, in the morning, they're gonna be heading from the food back to bed. In the afternoons are gonna go from the bedding out to these obvious food sources. When you're hunting this big timber, big hilly country, and the bedding and feed is is so spread all over the place. In a lot of these cases, seems just the the travel pattern itself on any given day just seems like it would be so random too. I mean, I feel you could almost throw a dart at a map and say, well, he might go that way today. How do you how do you make those decisions? And it realized every time you go out there is different. So I realized every situation is different. So what I'm looking for here is insight into your decision making process. So not a specific thing, but like, Okay, when you're heading in on this kind of day, what are the two or three things you have to determine or answer to say, Okay, I'm going to go to X spot because it seems like it's a harder decision to make where you're hunting than it is where I'm hunting. Or maybe maybe it's not. Maybe maybe that randomness sets you free and you don't need to overthink it and you just say, hey, I'm gonna go to a good terrain feature. I'm gonna sit it out, and what happens happens, I don't know. Uh but what do you think about that? Uh So, yeah, that's that's a million dollar question. But when so specifically, if you're say, like an earlier scene, I'll kind of break it down into the season here. Maybe this isn't exactly how your question was worded, but you know, the first thing I'm thinking about is the time of year when it comes into my decision making. What what are their primary focuses? What do they want with that? You know, security is always something that's important to them. The rut it can kind of go either way, but I'm looking at the time of year. And also you know, dear like to communicate in one way or another. So if I were to, if I were to put the odds in most of the time of the year's scrapes or something that really that I focused on a lot near cover, near betting type of cover, I'll set up on those scrapes. Um, if if the hunting pressure is higher, you know, that's something else that comes into consideration. Then I'm trying to figure out areas that the hunters might not be in, and that that doesn't mean you have to go you know, another mile in that like you know, Johnny gave an example of you know, actually coming back closer, but that might just be that hidden nook again using Johnny's terms, but off the side of a hill or something that you know that is a little bit um overlooked. And and for for me, I'm not focusing on the the amount of deer. I'm focusing on a certain type of deer. So there's primary scrapes in some of those areas that that might kind of funnel them through, but they also have that security so you know, side hills. Um, I'm having a little bit of trouble answering this question just because of the broadness of the uh the situations in the time of years. But it's poor work on my part for giving a too prevate questions. I get what you're asking, it's just it's a difficulty answer. But I'm really I guess to try to sum that up is I'm focusing on the time of year, which will dictate what my next move is and and if for this direction of this question here, I'll just say, focusing on when most people would be hunting, you know, say pre rut rut time frame, I am going to focus on, say the end October. I'm looking for those primary scrapes. I'm looking at the scrapes that have the security that they're gonna work in daylight or have the potential work in daylight close to that bedding cover. And then as it gets into more of the rut time frame, you know, beginning in November into the second week in November, I'm focusing more on the doughe bedding areas, which typically is in more of that thicker cover and hunting the edges of that and the wind is never consistent. But I try to again use what are gonna be the best odds for the wind. I'm not a person that that hunts solely. Like you say, if there's a um the wind starts shifting, I'm not going to climb out of my stand. It's it's going to shift. That's you know, can you blow a deer out? Yes, but I'd be bouncing around from tree to tree all day if that was what my mindset was with it, so focusing on, you know, the the edge of those dope betting areas. But it always, I always seemed to find a scrape in the picture. There's always a scrape around me. Um, whether that's at fifteen yards rate that I'm kind of sitting over or within the hundred yards of it, it's always kind of in my my picture there. So again, Mark, I apologize if I answered that question poor Lee, but that was kind of what was on my in my mind. You answered it better than I asked it, so that was pretty good. But yeah, what do I think for sure? He said it great? He said some good points there that I liked and the one he said was overlooked. And going back to the betting um, all the knowledge and I have of the area and the deer that I'm hunting in the area. I kind of funnel it down to keep hanging out here. That's the best I can do. It's a shame, but all them myers in the woods and all this time, And yeah, if you knew exactly where he was, and you could say I would hunt here, but you get to the point where he's hanging out here with that bedding. So and it's usually an overlooked area, like both said, but don't go to an overlooked area because there's places you can go that are just so vast and there's no deer. It's an overlooked area that's in amongst um the rest of the deer community. You know, he has his own little area. And I usually don't hunt much in October because of my work and a lot of times I try, I gotta travel. I don't. I live at least two two now fires to these places I hunt. So for me to go up and hunt maybe an evening on a scrape that might take me a forty five minute walk to get to and stuff like that. So I kind of just focused my time into November. So, like both said, talking about November rut, your odds are a little better but then again, I'm starting to see that the hunters are pretty uh there's a lot of hunters starting to hunt when the time is right, and the deer are just going to shift and adapt to them hunters to where I know this year Drner right there wasn't it kind of sucked a little bit up and he's in I'm wondering in my head as a good hunters. But um, later in the year, I'm starting to in the January, although this year I had three different states I was hunting in January, so that was tough. But I feel like I got a better grip on where the deer can be found later because the pressure is low. But um yeah as far as um like both said on that overlooked area and but it but also in amongst the rest of the deer herd, and a scrape is something that I've I've caught him on Cameron these areas midday because the population is pretty equal buck the dough, so it's not like there's uh so there the buck that doesn't have the dough or waiting for the next one. He might not control himself and to be checking the scrapes throughout the day. So I mean both said, are good. Um, I liked what he said there and that was what I could uh put into it. So yeah, and and Mark the one thing I would added again as as after I answered, I think of things I should have said, but there was there was you know what I was talking about the edges like of the dope betting area. One thing that is important to note is I've ben stay set up on the edge of a thicket where it was it was so thick that it was difficult to be able to shoot into. So I'd back off on the edge where I see some trails and some doughs. But a lot of the times those bucks don't want to get out in that open. They'll just be just inside that cover. So even if you can't, you only have a small window setting up to where you can shoot into that cover, even if it's ten yards or five yards into it. Is is critical as far as like when you're really focusing in on your setup. And and I tend to find a lot of my areas that I'm not able to shoot over twenty yards. So that seems to be a very uh a very uh repeatable characteristic of the hunting spots that I'm in. Is is not being able to shoot very far because if you're focusing on the more mature, mature deer that they're using that cover to their favor and they're they're really liking there, there's more opportunity for them to move within that cover, within that thick those thick areas then than they are in the in the wide open. Yeah. Yeah, that's certainly something we can relate to. Uh, even out here the you always want to shoot into that thick stuff. You know, you guys have talked a lot about, you know, up high ridges, points, spurs, plateaus, different things like that. But there's also the opposite in mountain country, which is way down low, the creek bottoms, the the I don't know, the drainage ditches, all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of different thoughts on those types of things. But in most cases, you know, those bottom areas are still areas of high deer traffic. There's deer crossing these drainages, they're crossing these creeks, um. But it's something that historically a lot of people say, it's really hard to hunt down low because of swirling winds. Boat. Do you have a take or do you have anything when it comes to the bottoms that that you can share as far as you know how you use them, how you hunt them, if and when. Um, I've I've heard you talk about this a little bit, so I know you have some thoughts. Um. Curious to hear what those are though. Yeah, I love creek bottoms, but what I'll say is not all of them are created equal. And ones that have steep steep train that comes down and there's not a lot of space in the bottom, or say like a draw that goes up that has a creek, it's really difficult with the wind in those areas. Yeah, swirling winds you get, it's just it's really difficult. But when you get an area where you get a little bit more of a flatter bottom that grows some thick cover because it's always kind of a little bit marshy in there and swampy during the rut, those are some of my favorite places to hunt. And a lot of the reason is so once once you get those cold temperatures in November. Um. One thing I'll say is I don't normally hunt bottoms is much when it's warmer. And even though you might think, oh it's warmer, they need water but the wind is tougher to hunt at that point where you when you have the colder weather or still days, it's not swirling as much, and your thermals are almost always consistently following that correct downstream. So I like to set up as close to it, almost over up of the water, which is difficult to be able to hear, but it gives you a consistent wind direction. And the ticket for that is that there's a lot in a lot of these areas up here will have beaver ponds that the beavers will damn up an area the stream that are in these valleys. And if you set set up on the top end of those beaver ponds one that body of water creates its own natural funnel, so they have to either across above or below it. But if you set up above it, your thermals are coming down down, you know, down the stream towards that pond, and when they hit you and they and you say, your wind and your sense going out across that water. What happens when it's cold out is that water is warmer than the air and it pulls up your scent up, so you're I call I feel like I'm invincible when I'm in one of those situations because your winds coming right at your face, hitting that water and going up and so on those cold, frosty more things in November. I really can't think of a better spot, because there's to to talk about a little bit more. Is you know an area that I'm looking at that would almost create like a So the ridges would almost like create like a turkey foot, and you have these draws that run down and they all meet in that one spot, which will create like a bigger bottom. And those areas are travel spots. So although they like to run the tops of the ridges and do all that, they're coming down at some point and they're crossing there. Those are spots that that I'll sit all day and I've had more luck in the middle of the day than i have first light and in in last light. So for for me, I guess the key takeaways with crick bottoms are crip bottoms are are known for having a lot of nine but a lot of people say there at night, you know you can't hunt them because of the the wind. But I almost feel the opposite on that. But you have to pay attention to the condition. Colder weather still winds and the route when they're crazing. I mean, those foss a are money for me personally. All right, I'm convinced. What about you? Johnny is both full of it or is he onto something? Bows on it? He's the man. He's really good with thermals and wind and he's definitely right that. Uh, there is a consistency though when when it's later in the evening the thermals are long, you know, you get that just calm day and the thermals and the thermals will come perpendictionary down the hill, but also down maybe the stream where I said that one buck, you know, I know he was. I think he was coming kind of up the stream to that's great, But he was coming from um the one side in particular. But it was it was kind of I don't know where on that side because it was all thick where he's m and and it made it difficult to hunt um that little creek bottom because I didn't chances are I was gonna be above him. Um. If I was below him, um, I was screwed. Like if I went too far down the creek, he would come above me and go to the scrape. But it was just a difficult situation. You can find the rights to switch situation where the deer, Like we're both said, if maybe a couple of points come together a deer cross, if you find a crossing to where he's sent checking maybe what's up one in points where some does or bed, would that be a great spot to sit because you're gonna do the same thing as him. You're you're you know, he's crossing at that point where that buck that was using in thermals um coming up that creek to check out scrape. I don't know exactly, I'm sure he's popping out and random area. It was just like you can't sit at the scrape, and you know, you go fifty yards too far from where he jumps down and works that creek up, you're screwed. You know. So your odds are were pretty poor there. But there's definitely situations, um where it's you can use it to your advantage, you know, whether acrossing perpendicular um or um like he said, if it's kind of a flatter area, um, it's it's not so contained. And then that one spot, UM, I hunt a lot of them crypt bottoms and like that one bucket, you just you can't always and it was I was right there by a beaver pond too, but um, I was up in the timber a little bit of swirled and it just it's hard to play that way. I just try to get a scent free. Like both said earlier, in these areas that we hunt up there, we'd be jumping tree to tree, you know, to try to play the wind where get your scent in the quota it is the more you're able to bundle up and hold keep that sending. In my opinion, you know, they help you with them swirling winds, and sometimes you gotta you gotta take chances, um to get an opportunity, but you don't want to over and there are situations where you can hunt in the wind and be consistent. That's a good spot, um, like the mid Less and that, but it would be careful you can you're gonna like people tell me there's somebody hunting there, but then you're there putting that scent and that's swirling around, so you can't be hunting there a lot. You're gonna leave a lot of cent, But you gotta take chances, you know, and always have five six spots, five six different deer places to hunt, because like that, you could one hunt, you could just screw up the whole place ruin that buck. So you're gonna have a couple of areas and ideas and it's just coming back to scout and boots on the ground and time. And like I say, I live the closest piece of public land hunt that I live close to two and a half fire. So I'm kind of in a situation where UM take advantage and know all you can before you you know, you don't have the opportunity. You got your back door and Scott you know so I think, But yeah, that mark. I was gonna say, if if you had to guess or give me an estimate, if I asked you, all right, how many different quality spots do you have scouted and in your back pocket, let's say for the rut. If if if you had to estimate how many spots you have in your in your on X or in your mental list of spots you can go to the hunt during the rut that are kind of scouted thought through. I bet you I got I got a lot of spots marked that I know are good that um I don't even hunt. I have them just because I love scouting more than I do hunt. I think now that I'm older, I love learning new areas, so I do have I'd probably have ten fifteen spots in spots that will just you know, if I don't bring up my NYX and look at a pin that I forget about individuals. Sometimes I was hunting kind of these two individual deer, the one I found this year and the one I the one I was kind of hunt a little bit. So I got like two three bows deer, four or five individual deer, and then I also have maybe um so I got like maybe two or three spots with them deer, and so you're looking at six ten spots there and I got maybe ten fifteen just spots that, um I don't know maybe what the deer, what the actual deers living there, but I know they are good spots. And a lot of times when my friends come to hunt and I don't have the time to hunt all these spots, I'll put them there and they kind of helped me scalp. But the area that means bow hunt. In the area, there's hundreds of thousands of acres, you know, and there's a lot of cover and there's a lot of um I do obtain a lot of spots that ances a good spot, you know, and it's hard to define that spot where that's the scrape who just maybe out of the way, But I bet you yeah, I I could think of maybe twenty spots that are good and not generalized trees, maybe just this area you know that I have there. But then I hunt the Midwest a lot in Ohio and I got I got like I hunted Iowa Lake season this year, and over the years i've hunted there, I got six eight spots and then I dropped cameras there. But every year is different, you know, so it's kind of like, um, it could be like a you could just guess like roll of dice, or sometimes I'll put cameras and see what's what's there this year. So yeah, I have a lot a lot over the years, you know, twenty years whatever, how many years hunt in public land, religiously years six seven years of public land. But I have a lot of spots in a lot of different stages because I I love scout and that's what I like doing so and that's why I'm not afraid to hunt with other people and send them different It's like some people That's why I like helping people. You know, I'm going here or trying to spot I ain't been there in years, but it used to be good, you know, and just see what they see, what they come up with. Yeah, it's nice to have. And that's it's such a consistent thing among the folks that we talked to. I mean, if if you're gonna pick one consistent trait among you know, consistent deer hunters, it's the fact that they have a lot of good quality spots scouted out and in their rolodex of possible places they can hunt. You know, they're they're never under prepared, They're always overprepared. I mean, you guys are clear examples. Uh Andy here on the other side of the line, he's an obvious example of that. He's got more spots than he could hunt in twenty five years, even if you let me hunt them all to um so, So I know that that's something that you know, anyone listening, if you want one simple thing to do today to get better at this and have more luck and more consistent success, scout and find more quality places, whether you hunt mountains or the farmland or whatever, just scout. Scout, Scout find more spots, find more spots. Um, I don't know, that's it's just it always always comes up, and it's it's one of those effort related things. So it's within each of our control. It's not something that you have to be crazy smart to figure out. It's not something that you need to have a lot of money to figure out. It's not something that you need a big, fancy property to do. This is something that any one of us can do. Whether you you know, are a millionaire or you're graduating high school and you don't have a dollar to your name, you can find more spots and uh right there put yourself in a better position. So, um, we're we're getting we're getting up on time here. Somehow an hour and forty minutes has got away from us somehow. So I want to I want to wind us towards an ending here before it's two in the morning and none of us can stay awake. So and Andy, what do you have any final thing you want to cover with these guys or final thoughts you want to get from Johnny and bo? Yeah, I got I got one more question. Um, so let's say there is you know this big old buck you guys have followed the you know, previous few years. He's he's a big, mature dear, high scoring gear or whatever, your dream book. You're gonna put all your eggs in one basket, and it's let's say it's November on so you're gonna you you you finally locate this book, you know, or he's he's showing up in this area and now is the time to hunt him. So it's basically rut and you know that he basically you have it narrowed down to like a ridge system or a mountain that you know, with a main point, a couple of main points, and some secondary points. In your opinion or I guess for your guys, a strategy, would you be more mobile and bouncing around two different kind of pinch it like terrain pinches and travel like benches and saddles, kind of hitting new areas, constantly moving around, or would you be more inclined to plant your butt in one specific spot, whether you know, whether it's the head of a drainage, head of the big main drainage or the major saddle coming through, or a big bench on that leeward side and just sit there day after day after day. If the weather and wind permitted, Do you guys have uh uh an idea of what you would do in that hypothetical situation or what you think would be most effective at getting an arrow in that book about let's start with you both. So I would say, I think, I think that's a great question. And my my response to that is I would stay in that one spot more than I would bounced around. And the reason for it is one low dear den to the two. With those sporadic patterns, you just if you know that a buck um, say a tro camera data is hitting this scrape or going through this pinch or whatever, you're going to do it, eventually, you've got to be there for it. And as I'm saying this so confidently on the line, I screw this up more times than not because I want to bounce around or I lose some confidence in that. But I've learned that the the more that I do stay in those specific spots they during the rut um specifically, the better chances that I have during it. Now, if I if I go, you know, three or four days and it doesn't all I've seen was a couple of squirrels. Um, I'm gonna be inclined to move and realize things have changed. But for the for the most part, sitting still and at least giving it. Uh, you know, two or three days of constant you honey in those areas because you don't burn them out as quick as others spots because there's not as many deer and you're not blowing them out going in or anything there. So that's that's my short and sweet answer to it. All right, how about you, Johnny, Well, it's been a while since I've had my dream buck that I've been chasing. Um. You know this public land that we hunt, there's hundred forties, hundred fifties. But I am my goal and it's been my goal for the last five six years at the shoot a hundred and seventy inch on public lands where a few years ago I had one. And now it's like where I'm at my hunting career. Um. I enjoy the run, I enjoy hunting with friends, and sometimes I'm impatient because I don't have that deer that I would do whatever it takes. I'm not trying to. I didn't shoot a deer this year. I had my bow back once on a deer in January. This year, you know, and I don't care. Um, I don't. But um, if I had that dream deer, I would do whatever it takes to get that deer. And like both said, I would probably sit if I knew. Chances are, Um, the more experience you have with a deer, the more you'll know. So if it's only a deer that I just found this year, and um, so actually I got another deer that I had on camera this summer, he was pushing one seventy and he just that's all I got as a summertime picture. But this shed seas I'm going to kind of head maybe in the direction I think. So it's my if I do catch him this summer again, or I find a shiit, it's gonna be a new deer. So I might not know that much like we always talked about, it takes years to know about these deer to where. Um, it's gonna be harder to hunt them, harder to sitting at one spot because I don't know. But if it's a deer that I've chased for a few years and I know him, um, and I know he's gonna come by this spot, I'm gonna stay there and I'm gonna do whatever it takes. It's been years since I've done that and wanted one bad enough that I would do that and sit because I am Maybe I'll sit till noon and maybe i'll just do midday. I'll go scout or whatever, because that's where I'm at. I'm just enjoying my hunting. I'm not trying to prove myself and that that. Yeah, I was sitting one spot, but as long as in your head, um, like, be optimistic with your spot, and no, it's a good spot, but also be realistic. You say, I'm in the city here eightden days until I shoot the deer. But if you get that feeling like maybe the wind come across the back of your neck, maybe you think he's over there. Um, I don't take chances with the mature deer. If I think I screwed it up a little bit, I'll get down and move. So. Yeah, but there are some stands that I have that the winds right. I said, Man, I could sit here every day on the southwest wind and to be great, the chances are in the situation maybe you're going to And a lot of times I find myself getting into where these bucks are and it's risky even getting into them spots. That's a big s That's the whole another conversation and getting into hunting these areas, how you might blow them out, blow a deer out. But and it's if you're walking a fine line. Did I blow him out? Where did I blow maybe just a smaller buck out as he's steal here. So it's it's really a mental game when you're you are hunting them, those animals, whether I should stay or where I should go. But for the most part, if if you've got him nailed down and it's a deer, or if I got him nail down to's a deer that I want to harvest, I'll stick to that spot that I know he's gonna come by. And but yeah, it's it's that's Those are some great answers. Um, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I am admittedly am a very mobile hunter. I do get a little impatient just kind of pounding away at the same spot. But I did that this year with my Ohio buck and it and it led to me killing him. Um, I just felt like I was always chasing he sent him around and now he was always like two or three steps ahead of me. So I decided to just stay in one spot that I knew he frequent um a few times this season before UM. And then there's two other mountain hunters that I know that you guys, I'm sure I've heard of Troy Pottinger and and Bobby Worthington. Um are both you know, guys that are pretty stationary, you know, on the on the mountain, um if they're after a particular book. And I mean I've read stories of Bobby hunting like thirty straight days in the same tree, you know, for a for a specific book. The thing that I struggled with with that, though, I think, is like you never know if that buck comes through after dark and catches like you know, a boot track or something like that. And that's what's always kind of messing with my mind is like, Okay, I might be sitting there on the fifth or sixth day and it's like, you know, did he did he come through and catch my ground saying? And he's never coming now, So I just, uh, I just want to ask you guys that, But I don't know, Mark, you got another one for these guys before you wrap it up? Yeah? I think, Um, I think to your point, Andy on that one, it takes a lot of confidence. It takes a lot of confidence in like knowing that you're in the right spot, and it takes a lot of confidence in knowing that you've been able to pull it off effectively all those previous days. But if you have that, if you have that experience or that knowledge, I can tell you that, yeah, you're you're getting away with it. It makes a lot of sense to do that. But it sure seems hard to get to that point where you're not constantly second guessing yourself. I could certainly see that that being dangerous. That's definitely a good point that the confidence. Um, if you're so confident, I've been in the situations for I'm so confident I don't care what I did being in that tree. Um, I just knew I was going to kill a deer. So if you get to that point you're confidence is up that much, then yeah, but all means stay there if you believe that spot, and if you believe it that much, you will see it just in life, you know, whatever it is. And Johnny always that he always pumps me up when I'm gonna say I'm during a rout, and I'm down a little bit, and either we'll meet up there in the season or text me or something. He'll be like, Oh, you're confident, and you you know these deer better than than anyone these deer that you're hunting. He's like, be confident in your spots, you know, And sometimes that that helps give you know, having friends like that give you a little pick me up. And you do even when you do get down on things, you know, understanding that you know you did the work, you kind of learned it. Yes, you gotta know when to move and kind of have that feeling. But at the same time, you know, just because you had one or two bad hunts doesn't mean it's a bad spot. And and you gotta somehow figure out a way, depending on your personality, how to kind of keep that confidence and and you know, you know when you're gonna do that. Whenever I tell you know, I'll tell Johnny good luck. He always says, I, I don't believe in Lockwood. Well, if we get it done this because we put ourselves in the raised spot. Yeah, A lots truth to that. So so I want to end I think that's some really good stuff we cover there. I want to end with this one last question for you, bo Uh, because at the very beginning Andy mentioned that you think the best mountain hunter you know is your dad. And what I'm wondering to wrap us up here, what is the one single most important thing that your dad, who has been this incredibly successful mountain hunter for years and years, what's that most important rule or guideline or piece of wisdom that he's pounded into your head over the years. What would that be. Let's let your dad in this episode. I wish you'd tell me that answer. No, what I when I picked up on is just he knows his areas like the back of his hand. He knows every square inch. He's scouts them to a point that is, I mean, he knows these areas like no other. And if I were to speak for him, which I may not be doing it that the way it should be. But he puts in a ridiculous amount of time every single year in learning areas and also having a bunch of backup areas, having a bunch of spots. As you discussed earlier, my dad, every time I talk about going to scout in the area, He's like, oh yeah, I hunt there too, And I'm like, what, you know, he tends to have a lot of spots and and and so I would think that, you know, just the amount of time he puts in scouting. And then I guess that I'm making this a little bit long winded. But in the persistence side of it, like he just continually haunts and hunts and hunts and just goes goes through it. And I haven't seen him come out of a November without an archery tag field since I was a kid, So he tends to do pretty well with that. And I'm again, I'm still trying to figure out all the details and if there's like one secret that he has, but he doesn't always convey that to me. I'm joking. He definitely shares a ton with me. He's a he's a funny guy. He's a he's mysterious when it comes to it. That's a good That's a good place to wrap it up. Good great wisdom from Papa Martinic and uh Bow and Johnny. I just thank you both for taking the time to to share all this with us and tell your stories and give us some insight to what it's like to hunt places like this. And I'm excited to do more of it myself. And in fact, my my, uh my place out in Idaho is is pretty similar to this type of habitat, so I'm I'm gonna be put it into action this year, uh in particular, So thank you selfishly for helping me get that done. Yeah, no problem, Mark, it was. It was a blast coming on here and talking to all you guys. I love these round table discussions. And I told Andy that before. I've been listening in to him and it's it's always creates a really good conversation. So I really really appreciate you having us on here, all right, and that's a rap. Thank you for tuning in, Thanks for sticking with us on a long conversation there. I hope you picked up a few things that can help with your future hunts. And until we chat again, thank you for your time and your attention, and stay wired to hunt.

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