00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number three and today the show, I am joined by Tony Peterson and our back forty camera crew to discuss the challenges, trials, and tribulations of hunting the white tail rut and how you can overcome those things and the story of my back forty buck. All right, welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. Today we are talking the rut. As this episode is dropping, we are kind of right in the midst of it for people listening. I think this is going to drop on November twelve. So if you're listening to November twelve, and if you're a white tail junkie like I am and the guys with me are, I'm sure you've been spending a lot of days in the woods. I'm sure you've hopefully had some exciting days, but probably some frustrating ones too, And that's kind of what I wanted to focus on today, is the the side of the white tail rut that you don't always hear about in the off season, and the off season we talked about, Oh, it's the super Bowl of the deer hunting season. Oh it's the time when dreams come true. It's it's everything you dream of as a white tail hunter and then it gets here. And sometimes it can be like that, but sometimes it's something different. There are trials and tribulations. There are many things that can be frustrating. There are many times when you're sitting there and you're thinking, this is not the way they talk it up to be. So that's what I want to cover, is how to deal with the challenges that the white tail rut can throw you. With me, I've got the crew that has been with me hunting on the back forty over the last week. To my left, I've got Mr Tony Petersondy, thanks for being here, Thanks for having me man, thanks for hunting with us, coming over to Michigan, leaving the promised land of places like Iowa and Minnesota and Wisconsin and coming here to the Mitten State. I think maybe your buddy Dan Johnson and I will start a support group because he came here and you guys have had a very similar experience. Yeah, don't. Let's not let's not talk too much about your experience yet. But but yeah, it's it's it's Michigan. We'll we'll dive into that in a second. So Tony's here, and Tony is everyone listening should know as an incredibly experienced successful d Y Bohunter travels the country, hunts a lot of public land, hunts a lot of kills, a lot of great bucks, and as a contributor to mediator, a writer, a podcaster, and he has joined me as my partner in crime Hunting the Farm this year for one of our episodes of the Back forty show. Uh. To the left of him is one of our cameraman extraordinaire who's taking off his shoes in the middle of the podcast, making a lot of noise. Charlie, do you want to introduce yourself? Hey man, how are you? My feet were hot? We're sitting in a wall tent and it is getting really warm. Now, um can I interject here for a second. So this guy's my camera guy. And if you think it's awkward when he does that stuff, he's just sitting a tree with him all day. His timing is wild. I am not surprised to hear that, Oh, can you give me one example of a Charlie is symmetry I've seen? Well, so can he talk about that stuff? Yea, yeah, that this might be l rated. It's it has been a wild experience sitting with Charlie. We have figured out all kinds of conspiracy theories, We've figured out aliens, We've figured out different stuff about psychic behaviors. The thing with Charlie is is he just has these random thoughts that come up into his head and he can't keep him inside. So all of a sudden, it you know what I was thinking about. You know, I had this dream the other day and I woke up and the things that pop out of his mouth. Or this morning he told me about he had a stint where he had six months of werewolf dreams in a row. When Charlie starts talking about you just always look at your face. It's always gold. Oh yeah, yeah, we keep it interesting here. Next in line, we've got Justin and I always say his last name round Michelle. Michael's okay at this point, Sorry, it's fine. Justin is the guy that has been stuck following me around the woods filming photographing, being a general trooper, um, dealing with all my manic O C D. Strange things I do in the woods. What's one strange thing I do. You won't be fired, you won't be criticized. This is the trust. You shouldn't have to think that hard. Oh man. I just I think there's a level of being on edge that I'm always on. So I try to think one step ahead of Mark. Like the other day, I was like, I really wanted to eat my breakfast, but I knew it had a rapper yeah, And so I was like, Mark, isn't it time to for a snack or something. He's like, yeah, you're right, and it's like yes, So what he did He wanted to snack, but he knew that if he started unwrapping the snack with me, he was worried. Mark has here's, here's It's not a weird thing, but it is a I've now sat with him quite a few times, even with his dad, and I have these immediate reactions to I know, like, I just know that if anything goes wrong, he is going to go to like level ten. So so I was just always like, oh man, if a camera lens or something clicks. I'm like, so there's a level of anxiety that has now passed. What do you say, go to level ten? What do I do? What is a level ten? For me? I just know that you're swearing without talking. It's always in my head, unless for with your dad. Yeah, I'm just a perfectionist. No, I'm just man, I'm just a perfectionist. But if I said this to you the other day to make you feel it makes me feel like that I am cussing it myself. And I make mistakes too. Oh yeah, we've had that going to We'll have to tell that story eventually here. Um so, so yeah, we're here in the back forty and what I wanted to do was was use the story of what we're doing here and how the hunts have been going to illustrate some of these Rutchen olenges. So I'm hoping this can be kind of a story podcast a little bit, but really it's how to podcast. We're talk you through how to handle some of these things, uh, and just and just kind of share our story along the way. That's gonna blend it all together. And I will give you the teaser here. The fact that we have had some success here in the Back forty a deer has been shot during the rut, and I want to tell that story too. So Back forty Whitetail Rut or hunt start on November seven, and on November seven, we have had both the for the three or four days leading up to that and now the three or four days since then, really hot, unseasonably warm, miserable weather for the rut. Uh, and that has been something that a lot of people all across the country have been dealing with right now, dealing with hot weather in the rut, Tony, what are your thoughts on that when it comes to gosh, sorry, guys, you're gonna hear winds, very windy. We're recording in a wall tent on the property, so work with us here. Hot weather during the rut Tony, what are your thoughts, uh, specifically on this property. My thought was, I wish, I wish that you had spent less time on bees and more time on building ponds because there's no water to be found here and it has been hot. It has been an early morning kind of deal with the deer, and then you just feel that sun at like ten o'clock and it just feels like it's over and it it feels like it's it's the kind of heat that really will shut down the cruising. You know, we always say, oh the rout will trump everything, but this is like extreme and it's you know, it's at least bared out from what we saw. It really really got tough in the middle of the day. But it's you know, I look at this like the bad winter thing. If you hunt, you know, up in the up or northern northern Minnesota wherever. It's like when the bad winter comes, everybody's like, oh my god, this is the worst one ever. But you get them like every five years, you know. And so I was thinking about this, like these hot ruts in it was ridiculously hot. You know. I remember hunting down in Nebraska and it was the same kind of weather pattern where it was just brutal. You know, it's only a couple of years ago, and so this stuff happens. So you just gotta kind of you don't, you know, you don't want it, like this is not ideal, but it's coming. Like you keep hunting the next five years, you might hit another one of those. So it's just it just is what it is. So what do you do though, So when you when when you saw this in the forecast and you're thinking through how we'd approach it. Do you approach things any differently when you've got four or five days of tempts or whatever. Well, when you're on a when you're on a small property, it's just time on stand, you know. I mean, it's kind of the same pattern. You go, Okay, well, I gotta I gotta get the hours in and if I see something actionable, it's time to move, you know. But it's just a a lot of this is a mental thing. You know. It's so much easier to sit all day when there's a cruiser every couple of hours and it feels right, this is this is between your ears, this stuff. Yeah, that's that's very true. And it's easy to get so down about it that you lose that sense of readiness. At times, it's so hot, it's no way anything that's gonna happen. It's ten o'clock and it's already seventy degrees, and it's really easy to think not not today. But if it's in those moments typically when you lose your focus and you start looking at your phone or think about what do I get out of here that something does come through. Now. Now all that said, though, I still, like you said, it does seem like once you get to the middle of the day, it's shut down, and so I have not felt like we needed hunt all day because of that. Do you agree with that? Yeah, I mean we were just talking right right off air here about how we all kind of drove the same spot to go get lunch and there's a random does bettered in the middle of a wide open cut bean field today and you see that and you go, it just makes me think they're getting chased all night long, or they're getting chased in the cover, and so they're just betting like you'd see them in you know, January when it's one of those really arctic fronts comes in and you see them right in the food source. We saw that today, and it's like we haven't that always, Like there's still things going on and things change in and it's just it's just one of those things you deal with. I mean, I think about this with you're kind of the current state await till hunting in a lot of ways is to try to create this a spot where it wouldn't matter, you know what I mean, Like you got the food plot, you got the cover, you got the pond build That wouldn't if you were hunting, that situation wouldn't matter. But you take a step back from that, you don't have that, then you go, Okay, now I gotta deal with this and what do I do? And it's like, well, you can look at the forecast and sit it out, but you know, if you're sitting out like November seven, eighth, ninth, like, you're still missing out. And we had great mornings. I mean it was still it was still absolutely worth going. It just wasn't like the ideal situation as it still pretty good. Yeah, and okay, so but here's something that you have We have talked about. We have like a seven day window and typically November seven, number November eight, I would be typically thinking I'm going into my best stuff, my best rout spots now. But because of how warmer it was, we have not necessarily gone into all of our best spots yet because we've got a cold front that was hitting on day five. So we have had some discussion around hunting some stuff that mean maybe wouldn't otherwise in order to preserve some better spots or areas once the cold front hits. Can you walk me through some of your calculus on that, Tony, because that's it's a little bit of a hard one because like you said, you still can get the great red action first thing the morning or late at night. So is it worth sacrificing that? I mean I've waffled on a little bit myself this week. Yeah. I mean what we haven't touched on about that is when you get a weather pattern like we've had, we've been we've been dealing with south winds the whole time, and so when you you know that's obviously this is so variable by property, but here that shut down an awful lot of options. And you know, the kind of the main swamp on this farm that's really that little microclimate, a cooler area and thicker cover that south wind make. You know, it's kind of a no go zone. And so you're sitting here playing around with other areas and going every single day, all day long, we get in there and the winds the same direction, and so you kind of think, well, if it were if you had winds to deal with, at least diving into some of that stuff on the seventh eighth would have been worth it. If the wind worked for it, Yeah, but it just doesn't. We Yeah, we didn't have that here. And that's something you know, it's like, uh kind of kind of like parallels this rout thought process, where like the rout's gonna save me, it's gonna send a buck by me. We're as deer hunters were like these eternal optimists, and we go, Okay, this is gonna be the day or there's gonna be the time where I hung this stand, and it is freaking perfect. And then you look at the forecast and the winds wrong, or you look at the forecast and the winds right. You get out there and the winds that's the worst. And you know, I keep thinking about that this year. Just how different if I walk a hundred yards or I climb a bluff, what the winds supposed to be doing and what it's actually doing in that little spot I'm at is so vastly different. And so it's like a it's this dumb lesson you learn run over and over and over again. And so we've we've dealt with that here too. Is just okay, what's what's the wind really gonna give us? And it's been pretty stingy so far. Yet we I never anticipated straight southwest or south winds for our rut trip, so we really don't have much set up for that. We had to go in and hang new things and kind of figure it out as we went. UM. But it is what it is, and you just have to roll with it. So let's talk through our setups for these first few days. Then that we did try to um make work here, So I want to talk about we did here. But then I also would be curious to think of here about what you would do on a place not like this, but if you were somewhere where you had hundreds or thousands of acres of public land, hot weather. But let's get to that in a second. First first night here, UM, what we did for the first morning we simply looked at, is there anywhere we can hunt with a southeast wind on a small property? And this is a sexty four acre property. One big chunk of cover in the middle of the rest is these wide open fields and fence rows. There's some food plots, there's the improvements we tried to make to the fields that have helped a little bit, but they're still you know field, UM, so relatively limited in certain ways. Uh. I think the first morning it was kind of get somewhere that we know we can be safe with that wind and observe and kinda put us in a position to get reset up with the new spots for the evening. Would you uh agree with that general sentiment when we started the first morning was a sandbagger. Yeah. We didn't hunt the worst places. Um. I mean I sat the corner stand where the where one of our fields cuts into the swamp, and then the honey hole ridge drops down into that corner, and so there's a little bit of a pinch. If anything wanted to be along the edge of that swamp, they basically had to come through that little juncture there, and that is where I killed the wide ape from. He actually came out of the field, came out of the the honey hole across the field and ground him down. Um. But we didn't see much at all. I saw five does all the way across on the other hillside. Um, and you saw a couple of those, Yeah, so something pretty similar. Then midday that day we both decided to move somewhere else. Um, walk me through your thought process when you're picking that spot. Um, well, we I was looking at just getting into a situation where we could see where the does that we saw in the morning kind of where they were originating from where they were going, and you've got this this property is there's a lot of visible stuff from it. So it's like, I don't know if I should say this or not, but I felt like hunting the back forty was like going to the strip club, like you where's this going? Like you can look, but you can't touch, and so you just keep We're sitting here and we're like, oh, there's a corn field there we can see, and there's a bean field there we can see, and so you're just playing like okay, are they coming and going? And you're and really what what it ended up being? At least, so what I think I saw this week was if it was cover, it was good, and if it was open it was bad, just generally. And so that first night, we you know, we're just looking like, okay, where can we kind of observe and certain moving in and the spot we picked a look over that cornfield was the wind was terrible, and so we just backed off into that corner, the far corner of the property, thinking, you know, there's there's kind of a swamp behind that, you know, and there's there's one ridge you can see on one side, kind of a ridge leading in on the other and it just sort of looked like a hub. And so that's that was the place that I ended up at that night. And I've sat there more than I've probably sat any stand in my life. And it is now pulled and done, and it treated it treated me really well in the in the mornings and not well in the evening. So, uh, those and little bucks, I know, I made a comment this morning when we were filming that I'm not name them guy, like I know, you name lots of stuff and spots and deer, and I named that place the nursery because because it was if there was you hear that coming and you're like, oh, that's a buck, and you'd look and it would be a you know, the Michigan eleven point with a little pencils on his head or some kind of scrapper, and it just we never it never became anything else. And so it was every morning that we hunted there, it was at least one or two encounters with bucks, and they were all scrappers and you just you just go, okay, this is this just isn't it. You know, like you'd think, man, you see him cruised through like this, like a little one does it, A big one could do it, and it just never materialized. It's one of those things though we certainly could. Yeah. I mean, we've got pictures of the big bucks coming through that low spot rip Aneath where you're at, coming past that camera relatively recently, but yeah, right now. It's it's a weird. One thing that I thought was really weird about that because I spent so much time there was there was very consistent deer and very inconsistent movement. You know, you'd sit there one day and and the wind never changed so and the conditions didn't really change a whole lot, so you don't I kind of don't give that a whole lot of credit for being the reason for it. I don't know what the reason was, but you know, one day there's like, you know, a dozen deer come from behind us and passed by, And then another day the bucks all cruised through one spot and it was never like where I how I set up this morning. I was like, they never come down the way I planned when I when I hung this thing. They always doing something different, and then three deer come right down the way that I was like, what what happened in the last four days? Nobody could do this before? And now you're doing it just it was weird and I don't know what's going on. You know, it's it's it's funny you mentioned that I've this rut to thought a lot. I've been chasing my tail on the other buck up and out and on some other spots tram and I was trying to chase him around based on observations and things and historical patterns all this, and then finally, by the end of this period, I've been honey, and I started saying, Okay, you know, I'm gonna try different text. I'm gonna stop chasing something I think can put my finger on. Instead, I'm going to double down on the randomness and find a spot where the highest percentage of activity with him has been, and I will wait till he returns there. Instead of trying to go where I think he's gonna be next, I'm gonna go where eventually he's gonna go when I have the right wind, and waited there until he does. Hasn't worked out yet, but that was the idea of the last day or two of the hunt before I came here, and that's what I'm gonna return to when I get back. Um. But you know, oddly enough and kind of a piggyback on that, it's like it's been hot. We've known like that, probably there's not gonna be a lot of cruising during the middle of the day, but we knew like those like the first hour or two in the morning and the evening, it was going to be like our like our our moments for these first hot days. But nothing replaces like getting eyes on things. And I think if nothing else, we like none of us have hunted this property a lot. I mean, this is only your second year. And but even sitting still, being in the stand and getting eyes on things, I mean, I think we had honed in on taking what we saw in August and then taking or not August. But when we're here with your dad and then our couple sits the other day, like there was obviously some pattern that we figured out that we ended up sitting once and it didn't work out. But like now, I feel like like nothing replaced us. Like Tony said, time on stand and if you had this place for another three or four years, like you're still adding and like to your library of like now, this is what I saw them do last year. And even though it's the rut, like we know, like we need to find the does, and we've found the does. So it didn't in the end, it for you and I didn't help us capitalize, but for these guys like depending on where yeah, and I still think I mean it helped us still to a degree, So you know, kind of along the lines of what you just described. When it came to our first evening, I wanted to be somewhere where I could see and for an evening hunt. I knew it would be like a last part of the day kind of evening type of setup. So where would we have our best chance during that last cool hour of the day while it's going to be looking at the best food source we've around here, that's where the most doughs would be during the rut. Usually if you can be where the most does are, you're at least in the game. Was my thought for the starting point. So I sat a stand that we hung last year that sits and one of our fence rows that's runs between field five and six, right kind of at the point of where our bedding honey hole areas, and the last hour it was really slow all the way to the last hour, and then some does start coming out with five or six doughs come across, and then several dolls from behind, and several dolls came popping out from this little western part of the honey hole crossing into the field. And then finally I think it's Justin who saw first. He's a big buck, big buck. It was Buck ran out of there chasing a dough and I pulled up my by nose and it was the droptime Buck, that little dropy buck we've been talking about that you and I saw in trail camera for the first time this summer. Who we saw Justin when you and I were sitting with my dad on the very first time of the year. He came out that night. Well, here he comes again, chasing that dough and he runs out of the field, stops and feeds a bit, and turns and goes back with the dough and runs back out. And now we're getting to the last ten minutes, the last five minutes, and we're down to a couple of minutes left a daylight and he follows the dough out and gets to right in one of my main shooting lanes where these these oak tree branches open up and I could shoot, and he's on in the food plot. He stops broadside, starts to feed fifty yards and he's sitting right there, and I'm like, he is right there, But just I wasn't. I'm not the type of lit'll shoot that long with shot, um, So we just watched him and then he turned and went back, and then they ran back in the brush, and then there was crashing and a deer ran right to the bottom of our tree standard, right where there's a path cut between the two fields, and I was like, oh, man, that's the dough. He's gonna be right behind her and it's gonna give me shot. But instead it was a little six point or something. And that was the night we saw, you know, the draft time buck was one of our target bucks here, um, one of the most frequent visitors on camera. We've seen him more than any of their buck. So it's great to see him, great to know he's in the area, great to see the number of does we saw. I think the biggest thing that confirmed for us what I had worried coming into this a little bit was well, we have the lack of deer movement that we had last November, like just dough activity in general. Last year was just so few deer at all. Um, in the early season when we hear with my dad, we saw a lot of deer, But I still don't know the farm well enough to know, you know, is that a thing that's gonna keep happening the changes that we made this year. Is that going to continue to help? Or are We're gonna get here in November and it's gonna be dead again. So after our first morning it was pretty slow. I was starting to think of right back into nineteen all over again. But now we saw twelve thirteen does and a couple of different books, including a good one, so that was encouraging. Um. But something I was thinking about as you described your setup and as I was thinking that this set up, and you mentioned the importance of Getney eyes on things, a challenge that we have here is the limitations of just the property size. Like you just said, you can look, but you can't touch a lot of stuff. A lot of things we've seen or would want to hunt, you just can't. We're stuck with these few limiting factors, and this is a challenge I think a lot of people deal with during the rut in particular. Um, you know, when you have thousands of acres of your great big farms, or if you're hunting public land, you can look on the map and you can find Okay, these are natural pinch points. These are seven different great betting years. These are eight different great looking ridge staddles or something like that. That That would make sense during the rut and you could hit all these different places. But Tony, I feel like when we've looked at the map here and looked at the weather and thought there are plans and have our wind directions, like, well, we gauts it there or there, Ah, that is that's a big challenge during the rut that I've struggled with. In that case, it's it's how do you balance the pressure versus being in the right place, versus trying to have a fresh set. I don't know. I know you don't hunt a ton of places just like this, but what are some of your thoughts about how you would approach the rut in this kind of situation. You've und some small properties in the past, Yeah, I mean this is this. This is just kind of you know, we we went into the swamp for the first time today and it was like just obvious, like you get in there and like this is where the big ones live, you know. I mean every this kind of property is like a pass through property, you know, so you know, like you could catch one cruising. But it's not like it's not like you have sixty four acres in bluff country where there's gonna be like telltale pinches and funnels and stuff. This is like a it's not flat, but it's not real roly until you're sitting here going okay, this is this is the kind of thing where you know you're not gonna get that like awesome funnel. Probably you're gonna get the concentration, right, like where are the bucks going to be concentrated? And it's just that nasty cover with you know, like they're gonna have muddy feet, you know, and so you're always looking for that. And what's what's sort of it's it's cool to see anyway, is yeah, this the swamp on here is is pretty big when it's when you look at it in its entirety. The part that you guys have is it's like okay sized, right, But a lot of these little woodlots that we're seeing some of the better buck activity and are small, but they're just there. They're not lighting out across the open, they're just hanging in there. And we had a couple of really good chases breakout next to us on on the neighbor's ground, and that chunk of ground is just tiny, you know. I mean it's the where where they were actually running. It's probably only like eight or ten acres. And so it kind of makes me think in this situation, like instead of just sitting where you want to see and where you think you're gonna see all this run thing and it's chasing like you would on the Sportsman's Channel or whatever, like, you need to get in tight into the stuff that they just feel comfortable in, you know, because we talked about this before off air is like, yeah, it's the rut, but you still have to factor in the pressure. And we can look on the neighbor's properties, I mean, like we we were joking, we were filming you know, bow hangers in every tree we got into, like or we could see them hanging. I mean, there's obvious pressure here. So then you take, you take it's a little cooler in those swamps, you take it, you know, like that's just the safe that's a safe space, man. And so it's really looking for that and making something work in there, versus kind of taking the easy way out. You know, a nice place to hang a standard saddle on a field edge and see a bunch of stuff, go where you can kill them, not where you can see them. And something I thought, And we didn't have to quite do that yet here, um, but something I thought. One of the things I'm constantly worried about on the other small properties I hunt, is over pressuring spots like I'm always trying to be so surgical with when I go in and timing that to the right times, and only hunting those when you have to or in the chance of their best and letting them, you know, be safe otherwise. But a circumstance like this, we have a weak trip and a small, relatively limited property. There is something to the approach I mentioned a little while ago, I think, which is find one of those those best places like what you described, and then kind of camp on it if you had the confidence in it, and if your little property only has a few places like that. You could bounce around all over your forty acres if you want, or you could say, you know what, it's going to happen in one of these two places, and I'm gonna put three days in each one if it's the winds right, and yes, some days are gonna figure me out. But the buck I might kill eventually could be two miles away on this day, and he might be four acres away in the second day. And if I didn't sit there three straight days, I would have never had the opportunity for him to come through. So part of me thinks, you know, if if we had had good cold weather here and we you know, at a different set of cards, I might have said, I'm gonna go into the honey hole of the swamp, and I'm sitting in a couple of these corps spots every day and yeah, you're going to leave an impact, and yeah things will change, but eventually one of these deer will come through. Um. I think this is the time of year when sometimes you have to care a little bit less about your pressure because you have to make hay when the sun shines. And I think this is that time in some of these places on a small spot. Did you agree with that or what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean I think you know, obviously, even even trying to be safe, we put a ton of pressure on some of these spots. But I always think about this. I mean I was in I was in Minnesota last week doing all day sits on a private place and you think, like I think, Okay, i'll rest this spot or I haven't been in here, and then I'll go in and there'll be some dudes tree stand Like so when you get used to hunting around pressure, you go that luxury of savings stuff. It's not it's if you have it, it's all. It's a great strategy, right, But a lot of people don't have it, and in this time of year it maybe really doesn't. It should be pretty low on the list. I think, Uh, justin you've hunted some pressured stuff, some small stuff. Have you seen anything different than what Tony and I've been talking about? Or Charlie you kind of too. I don't either one of you guys seen their thought of anything different. No, but yeah, I was thinking as you were saying that though, like you know, this is what you wait all year for, Like there's no use to save the property at this point. You know, if you if it's good, you've got to be in there, like those spots, Charlie. Basically the same thing um the land around our house is it's a mix and there's a lot of egg fields, so there's plenty of things that you can watch, but at the same time, there's these core areas where the deer always end up hanging out, and if you're not in there, you're most likely not going to see them. The rest of the rest of the properties that are connected a couple of miles, like the next mile over, the next woods across the road, they're they're just travel corridors to those core spots. But it seems like each each big section has its own own place. And that's kind of what I noticed here because it seemed like the there's a swamp on the south side, and then the north property has that little bit of swamp connected to that woods on the neighbors. So we kind of felt as if maybe like the smaller bucks and like that's why Tony called it the nursery, because like the smaller bucks hang out this this swamp and it's like a little bit of a smaller swamp and less deer activity, but like the better like you got big blue stem over there, you've got thick cat tails, you got cedars and all of that. That's where the moture bucks were hanging out. So I think it's kind of like a contesting like game for whoever gets what swamp and then they kind of just circled through it and check them out as they go, got DIBs and some of the better stuff. Maybe maybe, I mean, they certainly could be. But then at the same time, I always go back and forth. Sometimes I think we overthink things a little bit too, because again, like the cameras, we definitely over think. Sometimes. I think you overthink. There's tens of thousands of people laughing really hard right out and saying, yeah, we heard that. Can I tell you a little story? So one of my buddies is like, what's it like to hunt with Mark? And my response was that Mark gives a deal a lot more credit than I do. I'm just very analytical and very risk reward focused. I think I'm constantly weighing that stuff, maybe to a fault, but it works all the time at least um I think you I think. But the difference is like, like you you've hunted how many states already this year? So? And where have you hunted? Three states? But like you really hone in on like a core, you know, so I feel like you have to to a certain extent. Well, I think, yeah, especially on a couple of these little spots that I hunt local to home, where I've got one buck that I'm after and I've got, you know, forty five acres to make it happen on or something. But I'm really obsessed with in that one deer. I think that infiltrates so much of the rest of my thinking with everywhere else I go, maybe things like I think the perspective that both of you guys have is something that we should all have. But you know, I think it's property based, in situation based because like Tony, you gotta get it done, and and a lot of different scenarios where people like myself, I think, Mark, you you even have gone more than I have, but I have, like a lot of us just have a couple of spots. We have to make that count. And I think you do need to be I mean, go have fun. But if whatever your goals are, I think the analytics come in to help you achieve that, and if you don't, if you didn't, if you do go in Willie Nelly and you don't do your homework, then you can't at the end of the season say well, I didn't see anything right. I couldn't get it done. Like it's it's all situational based, but there's certainly are a lot of ways to get the job done. That's something I've definitely learned over the years is that there's a lot of approaches that can work and different situations, different places, different people's styles. Um, whatever works for you. But this, this brings me to then another thing that I think is right in line with it you said justin and which does make things different for you and me. Tony, you hunt, I want a decent amount public land. You want a lot of public land. Um. You're also less picky than I am in a a lot of cases. You know, you like to let him, let him sing um, but still shoots good to hear it does, which I But you're also willing to shoot different deer, which is Believe me, buddy, I almost shot a spike, That's what I'm saying. I looked over, dude, he had his bow ready and his release was on the street and I was like, are you gonna shoot? If it wasn't for the onslaught of internet dickheads, I had just shot that sucker in a heartbeat because I was he was. It was just over and I was, like, I told Charlie, like when he was walking in, I was like, that guy looked at the delicious like I want to shoot him so bad, walked back up here with it in his backpack. I've been just as happy. So so this is what I want to get to, which is hunting the rut on public land. So for a lot of people, that's what they're doing. And it goes back to this whole expectation thing we talked about, like the ruts supposed to be this time when giants are running all over the place and it's exciting and it's everything you dreamed about. But on public land maybe that's not always the case. Sometimes it can be. But walk me through some of the challenges on hunting some of your public pieces you've done in the past. What are some of those trials and tribulations and know what they will be, But talk me through some of those and how you deal with them. Well, I think, and finally sorry. And finally, also how and when sometimes that forces you to change your standards and how that is is a good thing for you there, Well, there's a lot to unpack there. I mean kind of what Justin said. I mean it really like I could describe us like I'm a pioneer and you're a settler in some ways, like everything I do, I just have to I don't have a history, you know what I mean. So, like you're working these properties, and so I was thinking about that, Like my strategy for coming into most places would be to take a long walk around and look for the sign and everything. But when you're dealing with a property like this and you've kind of like you know your way around, you've been working on it and you kind of got your ideas, and I come in here and I go, I can't this is not like my style, you know, some kind of just like taking a back seat and going all right, well we'll just play it safe. But that just comes from you know, going to multiple states every year and just stepping into new public land and always trying to new experiences. Like there's no hunting on memories or like the plan is like you know, you do all your research right, and you get in there and it's like always different, and so you know, you don't rely on the plans the same way. So I I go in with you know, a plan of ABC whatever, and it's always like you walk in and the rubs are here, they're not here, or the river crossings here are not there. And so it's just more of an in the moment thing. So that's like I'm I'm like way more of a deer freelancer than you, like when you're talking about being analytical and working these individual books and stuff, and like, man, most of the time when I'm hunting, I have no idea what bucks lived there. And so this is this is actually kind of my nightmare, like getting bogged down into a place because and this is something I've said this before, and I know people who have private property or a lot of deer hunters don't really believe this, but it's one of the things I love the most about public land is like you're not if you're if you're willing to go look, you're not confined in a lot of places, so you have options. So we always have that goal of like, man, I want that private spot, right, I want that place that I can build up and build a food blot or whatever, and like that's great, but you know, like what if you get that south wind for five days and you're not set up for it, if you don't have that other option to go out, like then you're gonna go, well, I'm not gonna hunt because I'm playing it safe and I'd rather hunt. And so it's just a different It just amazes me how many different ways you can come at this stuff. And you know, something you you kind of said there before, like you know, you you kind of asked me like, well, what what does it take to get you to like drop your standards in one of those places. One thing that I've kind of become obsessed with is there's a huge difference like when you're sitting on sand, You're like I passed a buck. I'm like, did you actually try to kill him? Because there's a difference, you know, So like I hear people talk about that all time, like, oh, you know, like it's been three years and I haven't shot when I'm waiting for a big one, like hey, you do you whatever? But I know when you switch from active observer to participant in only want to deflate some lungs. Yeah, And so I'm at the point now where I'm like, if I if I go into the woods or if I go into the season, I'm like, I want a whole bunch of venison before this is out. And what I realized is, like I love big Bucks, but if you were to say, like you can have the antlers or you can have the meat, at this point in my life, I take the meat every time. And so I'm kind of looking at it like I like shooting deer. I like going out, you know, like you buy that nonresident tag somewhere and you've got four days, Like I would rather go home with a forkey and eat um and be happy and make a shot and go through the whole process then just not. So it kind of depends, you know, like I drew iye with this year, like I wasn't gonna do that in Iowa, Like that was kind of a special thing. And then you know, part of that is you get in there and you go not only do I feel like I have a really good chance at a big one, but I'm just having fun, you know what I mean. And so I've had this happen where you know, if you go to like Oklahoma blind, right, and you're from the Upper Midwest or something. If you go there and you're like, I'm gonnahunt public land I've never been to and I'm only going to kill one thirties or better, like you're going home empty hand, it probably right. But if you go and you're like, let's just go have fun and hunt deer, You're gonna have fun, you know. So it's it's not like what fits into the typical kind of hunting media mold where it's like, you know, we're targeting these age class of box or whatever. It's like just kind of like we're going in the moment, we're gonna just enjoy it. It's kind of like going fishing for whatever, you know what I mean, Like bring you've got nightclers, you got for you, you know, spinner baits, whatever you whatever you're gonna do all day along instead of just being like I am a fly fisherman and I am targeting trout, you know what I mean. Like there's a difference, and like again I don't I don't care what people do. I just know from my experience going to all these different places, it's just like kind of just looking for that and that like elevated enjoyment factor for me, and that's why I lean into this stuff. I just enjoy it. It's interesting. It definitely does come down to like personality types probably too, Like you're describing the things you would do, and I'm listening like, oh see that, Like my brain just couldn't work. Like I am the guy that if I'm going fishing, I'm going fly fishing and I'm going to catch trout and that's the mission. That's the thing I want to do, and I'm gonna do that. Like I'm not the guy that can go willy Nilli. I'm like, let's catch whatever, and I'll throw a spin and round in a bait casting round a fly rod, like I'm gonna go into these rivers and this specific thing and the same thing. Like when I go on a hunting trip, even public land or something, I have the exact opposite thought, where if I go in with a set of goals, I couldn't. I would much rather not kill a deer than then shoot the shoot the deer that I originally didn't want to shoot. Early on, even though what you're describing makes sense and I totally get it, I just couldn't. I just can't do it for my personality. So I want to fight to the bitter end to try to achieve whatever the goal was. And that's my fun. It's a different kind of fun, but that's the fun that I'm looking for. Is I really want to try to achieve whatever that thing is, whatever that end goal I wanted. I just want to keep pushing for it all the way to the end. And then if I don't get it, I didn't get it. And I know I'm gonna fill my freezer eventually by the end of the season with does. So I look at my oddes, state trips and those other things that this opportunity to go for that thing no matter what, and and I'd rather eat the tag and fill my freezer later. Um. And so it's just like I'm weird in that way and you're weird in your way both. You know what the difference is, though, Well, there's a lot of differences there. But you you probably the way you're wired with the white tail thing, you probably wouldn't go on a lot of the trips that I go on, you know what I mean? Like you probably you would probably be more meticulous in your planning and going. Okay, this is the place I want to go to in Nebraska. And here's why, Like it's got this history or whatever, and I'm just kind of like, I want I've never hunted X date, I want to go there, you know what I mean. And so you you're I think this is like, this is what I think. This is why this platform has gotten so big for you is because you are wired to just be like white tales, like and and big white tails or you know, mature white tails or whatever. And like if you look to my daily life, you know, I love deer hunting, but I love hunting everything, and I love fishing, and I love fishing for it, Like I don't get I get like board really easily. And so I don't have any problem just being like I'm going to a state that probably sucks for big white tails, but maybe it has got maybe it has a lot of deer or it's just I'm I'm making my decision. I used to make decisions like that, like where can I go to kill a big one and then kind of laser in on that, especially when I started the public land thing. Now I'm just like I just want to go with my buddies and have fun you know, it's just different. And that's that's the cool thing about what we all do. Everyone listening, and we can all deer hunt for our own reasons, with our own set of goals and go in there to achieve whatever does he want. If you want to go see a bunch of deer and shoot nothing, or if you want to go in there and shoot the first deer you see, if you want to go there and be picky and wait forever and not shoot anything, it's all good. It's all awesome. And um, I think important part is too, Like these podcasts and YouTube and everything is all like gold mines, right, and you could spend the rest of your life digging down into those. But the the important thing is to figure out what makes you happy. Don't let other people's expectations and goals and whatnot. Those don't have to be your goals. Um, you set your own goals. Figure out what Because you guys both have wanted this property, you guys are both having fun. But I know that if Tony like knowing you and thinking about your history on this property, like you didn't want Steven Yanni walking past the swamp last year and when was that and if Tony could have come in here on day one. He would have probably gone all through that and be like, I'm gonna find my spot. I want to make it very clear, I never once told told of what I said, Tony, what do you want to do? Yeah, and I will second that I've I've seen that, but like it like it's yeah. It can be deflating for like people listening because like if you you know, we all like shooting big deer and like that. I think you know, but set your own goals and don't accept other people's goals for your and you bring up maybe the most important part of this entire podcast, one of the greatest challenges of the rut is looking at your phone and looking at social media and seeing everybody else killing all these big deer and if you haven't yet, and maybe if you get to a certain point where that doesn't bother you, but I think everyone a little bit. If you're struggling, or a few day has been bad, or if your week's been bad, like dang it, this guy and this person, this gale, and you're seeing all these like why can't happen for me? And it's easy to fall into a little bit of a bummer phase when you're seeing that it's like the doom scrolling and that's happened so much this time of the year because it's lightened up. How do you guys deal with that? For me, definitely, earlier on in my hunting world like life, I would get I was jealous and insecure and would feel bad for myself or feel like, oh my god, I look like such an idiot because I can't kill anything that all these people are. And just over time I've got more and more just fine with who I am and with what happens. But you still sometimes like, Jeus, why Kim, why isn't that happening for me? Yet? Um? I know there's a lot of people listening that are feeling the same thing, because I get all these messages people saying, man, it's so nice to see all the times you screw up and don't kill deer because that happened to me. And otherwise everything I see on Facebook is this guy killed when, this guy killed him, this one killed one. Um. Does that ever hit you justin yeah, yeah, I'm preaching myself over here, you know, But yeah it doesn't, um man, Like I think it's easy to get wrapped up in that especially like if you you know again, you too too different perspectives. You both work hard, you do it differently, but when you work hard, you you want results, you know, whether it's like putting in food plots or saving these spots or walking six miles in public land like you want it. And so I feel I feel like it's with anything, we all fight the tendency to want what else you know other people have or you know, just but especially this because you know, for myself, I'm super passionate about this and like there's not a day that goes by that my head is not in this hole. You know. So when you spend all year thinking about it and it's here and you're like working hard and it's not happening like it, it takes some air out of your balloon, you know. But you just gotta stick with it, man, because like you, it eventually will happen, and you got you gotta remember that you're hunting, you're not shooting. You gotta enjoy hunting. You gotta enjoy, you gotta enjoy. Slow down when you're walking out and just look around, like that's the stuff that like when I'm when I'm not deer hunting and and it's spring or it's you know, Christmas time, and I'm thinking about it. It's not like the shot that I'm thinking about. It's like sitting in the stands watching the sunrises, and like even even with this warmer weather, like I've I've commented to you a couple of times like gosh, listen to the freaking birds, like it like sounded like spring again, and like that's the stuff that that needs to feed our soul, like not not what's going to hang on the wall, which I think we all get some gratification from, but enjoy hunting and uh, and I think if we can kind of bring ourselves back to that, then not seeing things are not killing you know, a booner or whatever, um, we should still come out feeling fulfilled. Yeah, that's that's absolutely right. And I'm given everything we just talked about. With my own personality being an obsessive kind of personality and very mission focus, this is something I struggle with every day. Not every day, but I mean like every year. At some point, I'm so goal oriented that I have to have like this internal dialogue and I have to have these little resets with myself and I don't know if other people do that, but that's what my craziest does. Um, because yeah, if I didn't, if I just like let my animal self go, that's the kind of stuff that would be frustrating me all the time. And so I constantly have to like mark, chill out, enjoy the process. This is, this is what you love. Don't let somebody else's success make you enjoy your thing less and take the thing you love so much and turn it otherwise. Um. But that's like a hard thing to kind of learn to do and to remind yourself of often. Um, Tony, do you ever I mean, I know you're different, but do you ever find yourself like, damn it, why isn't it working this here? You've had a few tough years all the time, man, And you know you started that with like the social media thing of seeing all these dead bucks out there, and it's like, I just I just want to say this, like social media is fake news. It just is like you're you're seeing you're seeing the end product of something, right, and it might be a guy like Andy May, who is one of the best deer hunters out there. You might just see the result of somebody who's got it all like and like in the capacity we're we're talking about, or you might see a buck that somebody didn't didn't earn at all, they showed up whatever for whatever. Like the spectrum is huge, and the problem is we're seeing all of those deer all day long. Every nobody shoots the buck and doesn't post a picture, right, and so you're just getting exposed to that. But if you go out there and you look at like the success rates from state to state, it's not changing. And so we're just getting exposed to these And the problem is, like we sit here and we look at that and go it's it's just human nature to be like, why didn't Why am I not killing one fort every year? Like, well, almost nobody is, you know, like almost nobody is doing that. And then you see some of these people who are doing like awesome stuff out there. I always think about like the hunting public, and you watch those guys and they're young, but I think they're probably some of the best hunters to come into the industry. I really do. And part of that is they are in a place where they embrace this this brand that they built, but they're they're layering experience in there. I mean, those guys are knocking out state after state and hunt after hunt after hunt, and they are layering experience in in a way where the average year old out there, it's going to take him a decade to get one year like that. And so if you compare yourself to that and go, well, there's so many variables that are keeping like the normal average deer hunter from even approaching that orbit, you know what I mean. And so it's like it's a weird world where you see that all the time, but it's it doesn't factor in anything in your life. Or you might just be somebody who just kind of likes deer hunting, or even if you love it, you might have a life situation where you know, you're you're like five days a year, six days a year, like you're not gonna it's not gonna happen unless you have that just banging spot, you know, like otherwise you're gonna be like, you know, mostly unsuccessful most years. And so it's just it's you know, having little kids, like I do I look at that and I go, that is you know, and there's a whole different issue. And you get little girls and you look at it like it's a scary thing and it's just not reality, Like it's just such a like you pick the worst thing, like we want people to see. We're like here you go, here's just this. Here's nothing else, like all the mistakes I made all day long, like you're talking about and so it's dangerous ground. But you know that that's the thing that I I worry about with us the most in this industry right now is just like what what reality are we presenting? And just by sure nature of like doing what we do, like content creation, you leave stuff out like it's just you just have to. But like is it an honest look or is it like how far is it skewed one way or the other? And you know this, like you're always checking yourself like, okay, am I showing as much of like the warts as I am of the beauty shots. And that's it's it's a tough thing to do. Yeah, my problems. I show too many warts And I get people saying, do you ever do you ever not screw up a hunt? So the other day justin do you want to tell my ward story? Oh? Speaking of these kinds of things, So I am O c D. I'm obsessive. I'm a perfectionist. I am so analytical with all this right, and I'm going in and we're gonna go hang a set midday right on the edge of the gray betting ever been hunting, uh, to be better positioned for the shifting wind direction we had from day one to day two and it was gonna be a relatively still day. So I wanted to leave really early, slowly walk our way in there. And then I stopped justin about a hundred fift yards out or something, said hey, man, this last hundred yards or so, I want to freaking stealth mode it to another level because we're gonna be setting up within like forty fifty yards maybe or worth these doss We betted. We cannot afford to spook these doughs. Let's let's be perfect. So we filled me in on stealth mode. Oh well, it was like step step, Yeah, I was. I was fearing, like, I'm film this, but I don't think people are gonna realize Mark's moving, like, so, yeah we were. How long did it take you to go from start of stealth mode to end of stealth mode? Yeah, we were. I don't know time, but it felt like forever, the last, the last, like forty yards of the heart because we were walking across the field, but then when we get into the timber, it was like there was the tall way to get through tall brushy weeds and then into some buckthorn. Everything's crunchy. So just like every single foot step, I'm trying to place it in the right place, slowly, ease it down, edge around every branch. You're not snapping and cracking and popping. Um. Of course I got I got headphones on so I can hear two um mikes that are amped up a little bit, so everything sounds like three times a little and I know like Mark soul is dying when when I'm stepping out things. So yeah, I'm kind of letting him pay the way you did. Great. I never once thought that. I never once thought you let me down. Okay, good, I thought you let me down, but I wasn't. That's what we're getting. Can you tell us how Mark let himself down? Here? So so well, what do you want? Do you want to lay the punch line or do you want me to live? You can go ahead, I'll just I'll add the sugar. Okay, So we we finished this stealth mode, sneak into this edge of the timber, and we get in there, we find the tree, and UM finally picked the spot where I thinks our best chance, and we get to the bottom of the tree. And for the show, I want to explain what we're doing, so I kind of start whisper talking to the camera, explaining why we were just stealth moting it this last yards, why we're being so careful about it, why I want to make sure we UM just pay attention to the details here on this one. And as I'm describing that, I have been holding a can of nosejammer, which is like an aerosol metal can, and we're standing on some rocks underneath this tree, and his like the words he was saying could not have been more precise about what was about to happen. Is almost like it happened. We went back and rerecorded, like what could be the worst thing you could say to prep people for Like, because I'm in the middle of having this speech, it's so important to be perfectly quiet when you go into a place like this. And as I'm doing this, I'm reaching behind me where that can to put the can of nose jammer into my water bottle pocket while you're explaining some I'm like, so we're just taking our time and we're going to be perfectly silent because there could be doze betted forty yards away, forty yards from the best spot. And I released the can of nose jammer into my water bottle pocket, but instead of there being a water pole pocket, it was air and it dropped and crashed down on the rid a pile of stones, Like I almost wept myself. Yeah, and I just it was just a classic. So that's that's classic canyon right there. Unfortunately you were filming it. So can I tell you the dumbest thing I did this week while we're while we're telling secrets. So today Charlie and I are sitting there, you know, four hours whatever, we had some does come in, had a little spiker come in, and we're like, okay, we gotta we gotta get out here. It's been dead. We gotta go hang this new set. And I look at my bow and I knocked my arrow in the dark and I knocked my knock below my So I'm like, I'm thinking ship, Like if if a big one would have walked in and I wouldn't have caught that. I'd have sent an arrow right off into Ohio and missed him by a mile. And I'm like, I've done this hundreds of times. I don't remember once in my life ever doing that and not like noticing for four hours. So yeah, they're professional. Happens to us all. That's some expert level stuff there, It happens to everyone. Um, let's let's go through a few more kind of rapid fire because you know you want to get in the stand here, Tony, a few more rapid fire challenges that we might face their the rut. I'll throw it out there in any one of you three, if you have an idea or a thought on this, just jump in. I'm just gonna start pitching things that might happen during the rut and howard to deal with them? So how about you go in. You're gonna sit somewhere in the rut. It could be a small property, could be public land, whatever. And you get set up and another guy comes in and he sets up you know, within a hundred yards fifty yards something. He's close. You see him, someone bust through your good stuff. How do you deal with that? Anyone have a thought on that? Do you keep hunting. Do you move, Tony, I'm out of there. I've had that happened before on public land and I can't. I don't hunt to be around people, you know, and it sucks. But it would be either time to pull the set or just go build a natural blind or some reset for the night. Yeah that's no boy, No, Yeah, I'm moving too. What about a situation where you know that there's a good area you maybe you wanted to hunt this good spot, but your buddy shot a buck there the day before. If you blew it up like I did, or you're hunting the gland and it's the spot you scottered in the spring, you know it's awesome. But then you get to the parking lot and there's some guys dragging out a deer or someone leaving, say hey, we're done hunting. We we were in there for four days. Uh saw tons of action, killed one this morning or something like that. Would you still hunt it or would you say, ah, they blew it up, it's not worth it, especially if it's rot. Okay, yeah, it's sure. Some Actually somebody explained to me why didn't kill them all out? I mean, how do you know? How do you know how much of an impact they had, you know, I mean that's just one of that you put it in the back of your mind, you go sit it and if it's doesn't pan out after a couple of CITs and you go, okay, maybe it's maybe it's done. But you know, I always think back, uh, when we were talking about the hot rut, you know, and the last time we had this, I was down in Nebraska hunting um public land down there and it was seventy five degrees and before I got there, some dude had driven his uh dirt bike all over the public land we were hunting, like just crazy covered it and it was like a ghost town just cleared out. But we just kind of started figuring out like these deer coming back. He got busted, like he got a ticket, but after that stopped. I mean, it was surreal. You'd go to like a creek crossing or you I mean, just the scrapes, the rubs, everything was there. Everything looked perfect, timing look perfect. It was hot, but other than that, but the deer were just gonzo. But they started working their way back in like the the disturbance is gone. And it was a weird scenario. For a little bit if they come back like that's our home, you know. So So this brings me back to another one of these things that people might experience the time of year, which is the rut dead spell. The rut is very much like ups and downs here and not there, at least from my experience. What do you do or what would you do in a situation where you're hunting what you think is a good area and you've put in three or four days in the general zone and it's just dead. You're not seeing the running activity you thought you should see. It hasn't happened yet. But you're in a place that either from scouting or history or whatever, you know it should be good, but it isn't. We talked. I talked to a couple of weeks ago Andrea Quisto, who says that if you are sitting in a situation like that, get up and go and go find them, because they're all in some other pocket with one hot dough or something. So he would tell you to go walk over the property to start bumping bucks and then set up. Would you guys wait it out, because yeah, they might not be here, but it's their home. They're gonna eventually get here and they will be coming back. Or do you go and seek him out after a couple of days, go get them. I'd go get him. How long would you wait? How long do you hold it out? Not long? Because you got it wrong. I mean, that's that's the problem with this is we get this idea, this is where it's going to happen. This is how it's gonna happen. You know they're gonna cruise to this pinch point whatever. But you get that stuff wrong constantly. I mean it's all the time. And to ride out a dead program, like a really dead program, there's no boy, you're in the spot that you have a ton of confidence in. It's money you're sitting, and it's lots of activity. It's November seven, November whatever, and cruising bucks coming through. There was chasing your big buck that you want to shoot, or a big buck that you want to shoot comes in and he blows out, you booger him. Somehow he wins you or spots you drawn back, or you're shooting you miss something like that. But there's still all sorts of activity. Do you stick it out? Do you immediately go and reposition? Do you stay there? That day. In the next day, what do you do in that situation? You don't leave biting fish, buddy, Never leave fish to find fish. And again probably comes back to your goals, like, uh, if that's the buck you want to kill, then you probably want to figure something ounce out. But if you're if you're just hunting your I'd stick it out, Tony. What if it's the buck you want to kill? Or is it like this? Is this is an exact snare that happened to me. I have one target buck I want to kill on one of these small properties. And he came in ten minutes before shooting light came to ten yards because if it had been daylight could have shot him, but it wasn't. And so he walked past me to my down one side, winding main blew out And then I was sitting there the rest of the morning think, Okay, he just winded me from this tree. I know him in like the belly of the beasts, the best stuff around, and everything's happening around me, but the one deer I'll shoot out here blew me out here. And I was sitting there thing and do I need to relocate fifty yards hundred yards? Uh? Should I just stick it out and wait for a dough to bring him back and he won't care. What are your thoughts? I would probably stick it out for a little while and see, I mean if that you know that that like you said, there there's the wild card, like what if he gets on a bill that smells right? You know, he's going wherever she goes. And what is their memory on a situation like that? You know, you kind of hope they're they're a little punch drunk during the rut and maybe they'll maybe they'll slip. Maybe it wasn't as impactful as if he'd got you on September, you know. But that's why I don't hunt one, Bucky, you might be the smarter one of us. Two. Um, what about the situation where you are dealing with let's say you're out there middle of November and it's that lockdown phase that we often hear quote unquote lockdown phase mid November fifteen, sixteen seventeenth, that a lot of folks in the media will talk about, Well, this is when it dies down. It's slower. All the bucks have got does? This is a time period a lot of people struggle with at times at least hunting conventional ways. Any thoughts on how to deal with the challenge of mid November. Do you hunt it differently than you would the first week or two? Um is going pheasant hunt an option? Fantt Yeah, I would really Yeah, No, I no, I would actually, but you know, I mean, the lockdown thing is can really suck. But it's also I always look at that like they're not all lockdown, right, you know, and that lockdown is like forty hours whatever it's going to be, and they're in different stages of that, and so yeah, it's not the chasing crazy phase, but it's also one of those ones where in some ways they kind of get more visible if those doughs really get you know, they get out into a certain spot and he gets her corral in a certain way. A lot of bucks die that way because they won't leave them, and so it's it's just a change, you know. I mean, it's kind of to me that's like the difference between the last week October in the first week in November. Like they're close in some ways, but a lot of a lot of times you're doing something vastly different by the from the front end of the back end and so the lockdown just brings you into a new strategy, you know, yeah, yeah, I've always felt the same thing, Like, certainly there might be less of that on their feet cruise and chasing around, but not every single book will all be locked out all the same time. And when they do break off one, you do have those windows of opportunity and it can be just as good as any other time. Then, and it goes back to the simplest part of the route, which is time on stand, being out there and being able to capitalize on those moments when they arrived of UM, which finally gets us to the mental side of things a little bit back. We talked about expectations. We talked about how it's so easy to have these dreams of what the rut should be like, but then it doesn't pan out. Um. What about just handling the mental side of the grind of the rut? Long days on stand, morning after morning, waking up a three thirty whatever it is, uh, freezing your tail off most years. Maybe you're hunting all day, every day, hunting twelve hours on the stand, your worn out? Any um, any advice or thoughts on how to deal with that side of things? UM? I'll say one thing I just post on Instagram about this yesterday. It's something that I've had to kind of grow into. I used to take the brute force approach to hunting all the time, both out of the rut and in the rut, and I thought that the only way I could kill the deer I wanted to shoot would be to hunt every single possible time. I could put every minute into it that I possibly could, so during the rut, I would feel really guilty if I didn't feel like I was giving two thou to it, and if I wasn't hunting every spare moment and every opportunity and giving it. I wanted to leave every little bit on the court, and if I didn't, I'd be beating myself up big time. I've started to more recently realize that maybe that might result in diminishing returns. Where if you are wearing yourself down so bad and you are tiring yourself up so much, you're grinding so hard that you start making bad decisions, start losing focus on stand start making silly mistakes, and then most importantly, you stop having fun. And if it gets to that point, a little reset sometimes can make a big difference both in your enjoyment level and also how effective is a hunter you are. So I've given myself permission over the last couple of years that I don't have to hunt midday every single day. I don't need to do twelve artos every day. I don't need to be superman. UM. I will when it seems right or when time allows. But if it doesn't seem right, I'm gonna go spend some time with kids or do something like that. UM. If I need to take a morning off, you know, five years ago, I would have never ever considered that. Um. Now, if it's you know, if it's that sure, I'll take a morning off, reset feel better, and then just kick it back into gear even better after that. That's where my head has been a little bit on some of this mental side of things. UM. Any thoughts on that specifically or other mental challenges during this time period, anybody, I think. I think all you're describing is why kids need recess. You know, Like the single best day I've ever had el hunting is when I spent most of it fishing. Sometimes you just need to. I mean it goes back to what we talked about earlier, Right, is your goal to kill a big one and then you know what you gotta put in right like to to have your chance. But are you like, at the same time, are you having fun you know? And if it's not fun anymore or if you're kind of dreading it, like you know, you can tell. There's such a difference when you wake up and you're like, oh my god, it's the road, I don't want to get out there, or you wake up and you're like another excited this deal, you know, And so that's that's the balance there, I think. Yeah, that's your take a break sign right there. A good morning sleep band is huge, Charlie. Snack advice, snack advice. Not those freaking apples. Oh man, you got freeze dried apples, like the dried apples. No, they're not. They're freeze dried. Would they're not anyone? Okay, So I thought of the perfect explanation. Yeah, but you should preface this with you have to have gushers all the time. Gushers are an important snack. Look, dude, you've had that pack of gushers in your pack. I have had my lucky gushers that you gave me. You guys gotta understand that Charlie is like our eccentric Davia. Charlie isn't after this is overcause I've been staring at this handle and can't figure it out. What staring at the handle on a table and you can't figure out I'll let you know. You fold it up and you just carry a buddy. No, But like, okay, if it's nobody listening understands what's going on. Now. There's there's this folding table like the plastic white ones, and it's got folding legs, and he folded up and fold it in half. While this handle is shaped to fit your hand, but there's grips and airspace on the bottom of the handle, so if you're holding it, it seems like the grip should be on the other side. I was just wondering, this is what we're dealing with. Okay, go ahead into here. But anyways, that the meat eater stuck me with perfect fit. Yeah, can you imagine? I Charlie was sitting with me though, Hey, I read that short story. Also, Oh you read it? Ye? Did you have a physical reaction to it? He told me not to read it, so I said, read it if you want, but I am not going to be the one responsible for telling you know, do you know what he asked me this morning? Right away? It's like, does your hoptel have a pool on it? Oh? God? You I know. She's like, I want to come over and go swimming. I was like, terrible. Yeah, gushers are important, though, so gusher's any other commend the snacks because snacks are an important part of maintaining your mental edge. And I'm actually not kidding. Yeah, I honestly think of having some snacks. Justin's been making some good coffee. Yeah, and he said he's like half as in it. Yeah. If I had the stuff, we'd be rolling man coffee snacks. If you're gonna yeah. Um. I was surprised because you asked for snacks suggestions and you came back with pretty good, pretty good haul. You got Golden Graham's, the bars, the bars except when they get hot, like it's been right now. The marshmallow sticks, yeah, oatmeal cream pies, peanut butter crackers. Yeah. We had a full little Debbie discussion the other mine. If you didn't know what was going on here and you just walked into this tent, looked at the snack sele, actually you'd be like, man, there's some stoners kept up. There's like no redeeming every calorie there is just to kill you. A little quicker sweet and banana chips. You can't explain those astronaut apples. There's no way. I hope back too, So I'm like, he's have to be good, so I hopen him. I'm like, you know the dried ones that are just delicious. Yeah, that's what I thought I bought, That's what I thought about. So I throw a couple in my mouth and it's like, you know how you're digging up worms like nightcrawlers to go fishing, you know how, like when they're in the grass or in the dirt, they're just all relaxed and stretched out. That's my tongue before I put the apple on it. And then you grab the worm. It's like this sucks right up. That was after and then out and then Tony yelled at me about baiting. So he's got this handful of dried apples and he throws them out there, and I was like, dude, there they're gonna think for baiting here, and he's like, deer are not gonna eat these? Oh gosh, that's funny. That's very funny. So swinging to miss their buddy, swinging to miss um any other rut challenges that we haven't covered, anything else that you can think of, Tony justin Charlie, I think just clothing and comfort, you know, you want to talk about the mental side of things we've I mean, we went out this morning at four o'clock. It was sixty one degrees, but it was actually felt colder by like nine o'clock the clouds came in, and so you know, normally you're like, how how much can I layer up? How much did I carry in so I don't sweat? And I just think really kind of getting in tune with your clothing and what you're capable of comfortable, you know, like comfort wise, like can you sit on a little tiny stand or can you hang in the saddle all day? Or do you need something more? Like until you've done it, you don't really know. But it's like you kind of fall in love with the idea, like I'm I'm going into hanging on I'm gonna do this little set up and I'm gonna sit all day. Maybe maybe, but you might get out there and at like eleven o'clock, like my back, hurt's hungry, this sucks cold hot whatever. My feet are the first to go. I get cold feet, and then it's just like, I can't take your mind off your cold feet. You don't want something like that to keep you from you're hunt. Yeah, it's I say this all the time, but there's so many things you can't control and hunt that the few things that you have complete control over it you gotta nail it, clothing gear being one of them. How you not your arrow? How you not your arrows? Take snacks? You take when you open your snacks? Where you place your nose jammer cans all that. So I guess this brings us to the moral of the story, which is, if you can go through all the challenges of the rut, And so I have faced many of these things and others in the proceeding two weeks ladly up to this moment where I did also had all sorts of close calls and mistakes and frustrations and YadA YadA, YadA, Ah did the nose jammer thing whatever brings us to yesterday. If you can sometimes weather the ups and downs of the rut, good things can happen. Day three of her hunt here in the back forty UM we headed in for another hunt. I decided that I wanted to hunt inside the edge of this betting area that previously we've been hunting on the outside edge of. I just I just kept believing that I knew something was going to come through Eventually. It was where the most doughs are coming in and out of on that side of the farm, and I believe that if we could make it work with the wind, it was worth getting in there. And there was a stand that we'd prepped the year prior, the very first tray ever prepped on this farm, prepped just inside of this section that we call the honey hole where there's this whole native prairie ecosystem. We did a prescribe fire of the spring to improve it. We removed some of the invasive autumnle of buck thrown out of there to open it up a little bit more. We've done this work. It's setting up inside of it where you can see into these openings in between theaters and stuff and tons of doors bet in there. Historically, over the last two years I've seen UM. I found the only two sheds in the property. I found in there this spring. UM we sat outside of it in a little food plats just outside with my dad, and he got a shot of deer out there, and from that spot we saw the draft time. By luck, the night I saw the drop time about the first night of this hunt was not too far outside of it. So again I've been trying to keep it simple. I think this is where the most does are and I think this is one of the best areas that a buck might want to cruise in or around, and if you can work the wind in there, I thought being in that zone is worth it. So we get in there that morning and I don't know, maybe well, first, just after first light, we're looking at the fact that once it brightened up, you could actually see a little more outside of the bedding air than we realized. You can kind of see towards this food plot closer than I thought you could otherwise, and there's some branches in the way. So I was like, hey, you know, I can actually shoot to that if those branches weren't there. Just so you want me come down, I say, sure, I guess just if you can do it real quick and quiet, which is you know, set up for failure, but quick quiet. So he starts it gets the saw and he starts cranking up in the whole tree ship. Come on, you gotta give me more credit, and that I was very meticulous. You were good, but still the amount of like regardless, you were good as good as you possibly can be, It's still there was still the dangerous move. It's still a dangerous move. And the tree branch drops that he had been cutting. And when it drops where I like, oh, there's deer right there. You had been cutting this Lindo talks about myself. Yes, stealth mode all the time. So there's two doughs right there. They did not spook. They didn't even look. I didn't even look. Um. But then I don't know, half hour after that, maybe I go looking down in the swamp beneath us and I just see Antler's coming. There's a long way as away, four yards away or something like that. Put my bios and it's that big funky side about Tony that you and I saw on camera. Um that that we don't know if we're calling him Spencer or the wrong Spencer or whatever, but he's the funky side of buck. And he looked big. He looked bigger in person than he looked on camera coming through that tall grass. I was like, holy crap, that's a nice deer. He came walk in our direction, but again very far away and down beneath us. He walks as kind of cruising, disappears maybe ten minutes later. I look out there again, see movement both the buyos and there's a doe squirting through and then right behind her, I see white times and momentarily after that I realized that's Droppy. That's that's the Droptime Buck from the first night. He goes following her. Around five minutes later, I see them come back through the swamp, but again pretty far away. We got a little footage of it. I don't know if you have you looked at yet. Can you see him? Um? So it was exciting that those two bucks were in the area, but pretty darned far away. Um. We're just in a unique spot up on a hill. We can see way down there into an opening. I had this kind of internal conversation with myself that was, Okay, it's nice to know they're in the general area, and it's anything's possible, but it seems it seems far more likely that they could go any other direction than this way. But thirty minutes later see times coming through the cedars and just was a real quick flash from one seedar to the next. There was like a couple of foot gap and you could just see a side profile of white antlers go through. And right away I'm like, good buck, good luck. I'm not sure if it's a shooter, but definitely potential. So I said, okay, we need to see what this deers. I grabbed the grunt tube, let out a couple of grunts, and then you, I don't know, A couple of seconds later, five seconds later, all of a sudden, here comes the antlers out from behind the saar. It was one of the most beautiful sites I've ever seen. I mean, it's it's dreams are made the dreams are made of It was the droptime Buck, a little drop he as we're calling him. He came walk out of the sea, came up, started ripping up a scrape and then he at this point he's at forty yards facing us head on. I think, okay, I'm shooting this deer. If he turns broadside, should I take the shot? Can? I like forty yards in my range, but I'd rather have a twenty yard shot than a fourt yard shot. So I'm trying to now think I've got the ball right and think, Okay, should I draw back and try to take the shot right away or do I wait and see how this plays out. I decided to wait and see how it plays out because he never really gave me a good broadside. I think if he'd gone totally broadside and did still, I probably would have done it. But because he never gave me a good angle, we let it play out. And then he started walking towards us, but went behind this big oak tree. He's behind the oak tree, and now I'm thinking in my head, okay, he's heading towards the direction of our wind. Our wind was kind of blowing straight up the edge, and he was heading towards that. So I knew that if he gets past this oak tree, there's the potentially he could get on our wind. So now I'm thinking, as soon as he steps off from behind these branches, I have to shoot fast before he gets that wind that's going through my head. And while it's going through my head, justin all of a sudden like no, no, no, I don't have him. I don't have him. I don't have him and then I think I just shot that you I don't care. Yeah, we had this, We had this prep talk like Okay, this is what we say if we don't have it, this is you know, if we're good, and I'm like, I don't you know here, I'm thinking, this is just the most beautiful moment. Please don't screw it up. And I'm like I'm not on him, and Mark's like I don't care, and the like we'll find we have that documented and you don't get this, We're just going to revert back to that. What I was trying to say was but I couldn't communicate in the moment, was that I couldn't shoot either. He was behind, so I can't. I was basically, don't worry that shooting this way to say I know, but but some other words I don't care came out. But what I was trying to articulous it don't worry, I'm not shooting. So it's like a nice way, like, oh, it's okay. I listened back to it and I was like, well, I have his antlers, so if you want to shoot, oh you did. Yeah. Yeah, those are high those are intense moments. There's a lot of pressure window. There was no thinking just in that moment, just base animal mark is what you got. Yeah, but fortunately he didn't go out that way. He stopped, Tony wouldn't talk to me, turned around, he turned around, came back the way he sort of came, but cut closer and walked out from behind the oak tree the direction we wanted to, right to twenty yards, fifteen yards something like that, and perfect. I mean I drew back as he started coming through. As soon as he stepped out behind the branches, I just kind of gave him a little quiet Marat stopped him and let her rip. And it was just about where I wanted, maybe an inch or two farther back than I wanted. I wanted to be kind of center lungs. And it was back along and uh, he went tearing off, and to make a long story short, we pulled out for ways wait until Tony was done hunting. All came back and he didn't run I don't know, sixty yards short, wonderful track job, just the way you want it. And just like that, my season went from being what it felt like when I'm almost frustrating, and it had just seemed like everything I've been doing it just kept having weird things happening and tough hunts and from Idaho to Ohiou to this long thing I've been doing in Michigan and just been frustrating a lot of ways. But I kept reminded me, kept having the same like internal talk, like it can change in a second any tamp time. Now, just like stay out there, stay positive, keep at it. It will chang change And then just like that, when you least expect it, kind of it does. And that was that was how we killed the first buck on the back forty second buck. We're having a hell of a season the back floor. It's been a new year. It's been a new year, so I don't know any final thoughts. It was awesome. I had a blast. I'm really glad you guys are all out here with me, Tony, getting your perspective on the property and how you would hunt it and your thoughts. It's it's awesome. I've always enjoyed learning from you, and uh, you know, now you better understand my weirdness, which which is a good thing. Charlie justin I want you guys to know how much I appreciate you dealing with all of my adosyncrasies, working your tail off out here, being out here early, staying out late, being here in the crazy hot summer when we were working getting here as early as I make you get here in the mornings for these morning hunts. And yeah, it's always good to sleep in the trees dayn before daylight. That means you're in there earlier. Anybody listened to this. We Charlie and I had this conversation this morning because we we've been getting in there after we finally told you, no more Mark, no more marks setting the schedule, we've still been getting in there like an hour and fifteen minutes early and just sitting there and I was like, I'm doing the math this morning. I was like, Mark got us in here like two hours before first life, Like this is terrible. Well, yeah it was because we were what was that which was the very first night, the first day we did two hours? I think that was because I mean that was excessive. I've realized that, Um, I should have just brought my baby set up and just slept under my tree. I just kept looking at the ground. I was like, man, but loved it, Like we have so much crap, we have to get set up in these trees and double sets camera gear and it's history. The worst the worst thing you want is to be there and it's like twenty minutes before daylight and there's deer moving all around and you're spooking them. So this goes back to my entire flow with the deer hunting. As if we've discussed, which is I overdo everything. I overthink everything. I'm doubly careful. I try to be perfectious to the tea and it results in all this stupid stuff you have to do with well, you're I mean you're airing on the side of caution there, and you see this with people when you do this enough, if you're rushing, he sucks like you're making mistakes. And so yeah, I mean getting in seventeen hours too early is stupid. But like a nice museum and an hour is what I usually like with cameraman every over that first morning, Charlie and I were sitting there, I was like, Jesus crazy, what is it gonna get lighted? Like you know how it is like you keep your zone out for a while, you maybe like conk out for a little bit. You like look over to the east here, like there should be like a little bit of pink. Yet it is just night times kind of like, oh my god, this is the longest ever sending the dark out here was waiting, Yeah, we're sitting there so long. This morning, I was like looking at the moon. I was like, the moon has to go a long way before it even starts getting to the way the sun comes up at a spot picked out. Charlie is a star gazer, man, I'll talk to you about stars for a long time. It's a lot of cool stuff. Well, there you go, guys, Thank you all for joining. Thanks again to all three of you. And uh, two things I'll tell you Number one, make sure you're checking out the back forty. Season two was just launched on the meat Eater YouTube channel. The first episode launched this past Sunday. The second episode will be coming out in just a couple of days. If you want to see how we got to this point where we're seeing a lot more dear than we saw last year, where we've now shot a really nice buck. We saw three shooters. We forgot to mention, I saw another shooter to that too, Um, but that day. UM check it out episode one now. Otherwise, best to luck out there. In the woods, shoot straight, and yeah you gotta grind it out. Yeah you gotta put in the time, work hard, be smart, do all these things we talked about. But the most important thing is have fun. This thing is supposed to be what we love, what we enjoy, what we look forward to all year. Do not let your obsession with the goal, like I sometimes do, get in the way of that. Have a blast, Thanks for listening, and stay wired to hunt.