00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan. In this is episode number three fifty seven, and today I'm joined by Justin Hollandsworth of White Tail Addictions TV to discuss high risk, high reward tactics that lead to d I Y deer hunting success and much more. All Right, welcome to the Wired Hunt podcast, brought to you by Onyx. My guest today is Justin Hollandsworth. He is a serious dear nut from Central Ohio, a member of the White Tail Addictions TV team, and I think this is fair to say, a disciple of the Andre de Quisto school of deer hunting. And Justin like Andre and a whole bunch of others who have kind of come out of this coaching tree. Maybe you could call it, folks like Adam Hayes and Dan Infult and others. Justin is a mobile deer hunter who makes aggressive moves when needed to get in tight on big mature deer. So today I wanted to dig into what makes Justin tick, why he does what he does how exactly he is having such consistent deer hunting success year after year, And I think this stuff, while in his case is being applied to trying to kill a big old buck, it could also help you if you're trying to kill any buck, or if you're trying to kill your first two year old buck, or whatever it is your goal is, these things can help you. And let me tell you this is a good one. Justin's got a great perspective and I think I think he just effectively is able to share his thought process from past hunts in a very helpful way. But probably the biggest takeaway, if if I had to drill down to just one thing for me in this episode, it was Justin's repeated suggestion. He kept on reminding us that we need to sometimes go beyond the normal routine. We sometimes have to push outside of our comfort zone, whether that's by trying completely new tactics, going to new places, or maybe just pushing in further or pushing harder for a buck than we ever thought we would. And that, my friends, I think is a really good piece of advice. So I'd say we should just get right into it. But before that, do just have to go through some real quick little house cleaning here. Longtime listeners out there, you've probably noticed that we've had a few more ads running than we did three or four or five years ago. And sometimes those ads aren't even hunting related. And I know ads can be a drag. Sometimes I feel that way too. Um, it is just a thing that you gotta do. It helps us keep this free show going. They help support other big projects that we put out there for free, like the back Ford video series and all that, and they keep me here and able to be talking to. So I just wanted to to recognize that, Hey, I know that's a little different. I know that maybe you roll your eyes on occasion when you hear those. I thank you for your patients and thank you for your support. And then I'm just gonna come right back at you though, speaking of ads, and give you one more right now, shameless plug. If you're looking for a last minute or belated Father's Day gift idea, I gotta give you a quick suggestion. Maybe your dad or another father in your life would like my book That Wild Country, an epic journey to the past, present, and future of America's public lands. Uh As you know, probably from here in the podcast. This book covers the history of how we got all these big, wild public places and a whole series of wild adventures exploring them. You can get it wherever books are available, Amazon, Barnes and Noble whatever. I appreciate it. I think your dad would like it. And now with all that out of the way, I promise it is time to get to the show. All right with me? Now on the line is Justin Hollandsworth. Justin Welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm glad that we can have this chat. It's uh, I don't know how it is for you, But I'm thinking about dear all year long, probably every day there's something I'm thinking about. But I have a little bit of an ebb and flow where my crazy meter can sometimes go from like eighty two fifty, and that crazy meter goes exponentially higher as we get into the summer. So once June hits and you start seeing a velvet bucker two, I get a little weird. And that's where I'm at right now, And so talking to somebody but like you, is the perfect way to scratch that hitch. Um. So that's my long winded way of saying, I'm excited about this. No, I'm glad to be on. I've been listening to your podcast for a while now. I love them, glad to hear that I appreciate it. Um. Well, if you've listened to the past episodes, then you know I usually like to kick these off with just a little bit of an intro from you. Uh. If people don't know who you are what you do, can you just give us the quick one on one on on your background and what TRUP do. Yeah. So, UM, I growing up in Ohio, live in central Ohio and have for the last twenty years. And um I uh I worked as a construction project manager. But UM, I've been involved with UM UM Lone Wolf and Lone Wolf Custom Gear for almost twenty years now. UM. Matter of fact, I've not shot a Pope and Young white Tail out of anything UM other than a Dequisto design stand and UM and currently UM working with them on the Lone Wolf custom gear side of things. But I'm also the co producer along with Byron Horton who's the main producer and he's usco another co producer for the White Tail Addiction Show. So that's UH. That's what I'm doing these days. But um, um, more importantly, I'm just another average guy out there that is absolutely addicted to white tales and love everything about him. That's the kind of person I like to talk to. Um, it's funny. I uh, I know a lot of really good hunters down in Ohio, and I it was very strange. I was watching I can't remember if I was watching one of your videos or if I was listening to a conversation you were having someone on a podcast or something, but it struck with me that there's another friend of mine from down in Ohio, he's more towards Cincinnati, that literally sounds exactly like you. The two of you have the exact same voice, the exact same pauses in your voice. Um, you could flip you and my buddy Mike out and it's like I'm talking the same guy and you're both absolute killers. So it's it's a weird Ohio voice thing that's going on right now. But it's I had to mention it because it just kind of blew my mind when I realized it. Um, you're not happy to be related to a great deer hunter done in Cincinnati, do you? No? No? But you know, somebody else has said the same thing to me one other times. So I have to look this guy up because I don't know this guy, so I should choose dame afterwards. I don't know. Maybe it's an Ohio accident or something that I've never noticed before that all of a sudden is starting to stand out to me. But uh, but yeah, it's there's no short good deer hunters down that state. You guys, are you guys are fortunate to not only be good hunters but also have some great hunting. If you you've hunted in a lot of other states, I know, Iowa, you've been all over the place, But how does your home state rank? Is that? Is that your favorite? Are you still like going on into places like Iowa? Is that still special? I love Ohio, um, you know, and I had a lot of time to prepare here, and and we have some some great deer, there's no doubt. Um, I don't know something about Iowa's just like the cream of the crop. Though. UM, it's hands down my favorite. But you know, Illinois is great. I've Kansas is great. Um, there's a lot of really good states. But if I had to, I guess I mean I was number one, and I would say probably I would probably rank Ohio four. But maybe that's just because I live here. But I have a lot of time to prepare, you know, to prepare here. And um, I think that's why I consistently have success, is just because of my preparation and everything that I do where I tend to a lot of times I leave Ohio um and hunt the Rut and other states because, UM, a lot of the deer that I'm after just who knows, who knows where they are. It's harder to keep tracking them from a long distance, that's for sure. UM. So I've got a weird way I want to kick this off. UM, And you can answer this however. You however, it kind of rings true to you. But why would you say you're a deer hunter? Is it you? I guess you can answer that. As far as how what led you to being hunter or why you love it so much? I don't know. I guess I shouldn't answer the question for it. I should let you answer why are you a deer hunter? Justin Well, I think for me, you know, it started when I was a kid and my my grandfather, who would who was always talking about deer hunting, and and I remember a lot of those conversations, and he and he talked a lot about a guy by the name of Roger Rothar and Roger and I grew up in north central Ohio, so Roger was not that far. And I remember my grandfather always talking about the sky and everything, and and I remember just I think, just being around my my grandfather so much, and he just built up the white tails, you know, so much in my head. So when I first the first time that I ever went hunted, um, I went out and my grandfather had shot a dough like right in front of me, and um man, I'm telling you, I was just hooked from that day for it is all I could think about. Um. I think I probably told most of the kids at my school that I actually shot that deer, which I did not. And and it was just after that, I mean, I just I was just fascinated with the white tails. I mean I did like science fair projects on white tailed deer movement, and you know, like we'd be sitting a social studies class and I'd have North American white tail and that in that book. Instead of actually paying attention and doing the things I probably should have been doing. Um, but I just got I just got bit with the bug. And I don't know the white tail. The white tail is just a you cannot you cannot tell me that there's more magnificent of an animal than a white tail. I just have a hard time believe in that. Yeah, I'm right there with you. There's something about him. It's uh, it's hard to shake it once you get the bug. It's funny you said the magazines and social study class. That is literally I may have read my deer hunt magazines and all my classes, but for whatever reason, I remember specifically getting in trouble in a social studies class. I was sitting in the back row of my high school. It would have been my junior year, I think, and my buddy, uh Josh Hilly or two people know is further was sitting next to me, and I was trying to get him into deer hunting at that point, and I'm looking showing him deer and deer hunting in North American white tail magazines in the back of class, and we got called out and yelled at. And that one sticks with me. So that's hut that yeah, yeah, I think so. Um so it sounds like that obsession in high school is definitely still going for you. Now I heard you say that you try to do at least one thing whitetail related every day. Um, what would you say? Is that accurate still? And if so, what did you do today or what do you plan on doing the next day or two? Well, Um, yesterday I was sitting trail cameras UM for a big portion of the day, and um, you know, today I was I was actually coming back from a UM job site, and UM, I noticed a piece of ground, UM that just looked really really good, really you know, had the good cover you know, you know what a big white tail would. And I literally pulled over at the next gas station and started, you know, buzzing through onyx UM trying to figure out who owned that piece, and and then did the what we all like to do was Okay, there's that guy, So now I'm going to look him up on Facebook and I'm going to start doing you know and just trying to have any mutual friends and like trying to That's that was what I was doing today. Has that ever worked for you? Have you ever been able to have a random drive by and connect the dots and get permission or something for sure, any any any trick to it that you think help that workout or is just getting lucky. A mutual friend is tremendous. I mean that can be um in itself. If you have that, you know, that foot in the door, that can go a long way. And actually last year I ended up I got a piece that was it was just that, UM, we had a mutual friend and and by the time I tracked them all down and I had called her and I said, hey, I know this is completely random, but um, and I mentioned the guy's name. She's like, oh, yeah, how do you know him. I'm like, well, I don't. But and then it led to that and then probably over the course of about three weeks or so, UM, I finally ended up with getting a permission slot. That's amazing. I feel like one of the biggest things there is just like there's there's there's some number of people that I want to get more permission, and then there's a smaller number of people that are thinking about it a lot. And I think this is a really important subgroup of people and that they're thinking about constantly getting that access and then you know, take it that newt step further like you did, Like you saw something that looks good, you looked it up. You try to, you know, drill down to other contacts and making it work. That seems to be something that is consistent among a lot of really good deer hunters is obsession with access, keeping on getting new permission, falling up on leads. Um, I've been I've had periods where I'm good at it, periods where I'm not as good at it. But it seems like those guys and girls that are constantly thinking and adding to their to their list of spots, that that's never a bad thing, don't you think, I mean, you can never have too many good spots? Yeah, because I mean, um, things just constantly change, and and you never want to get you never want to be stuck into limited you know, yourself to just a couple of couple of pieces of property, because maybe the caliber deer that you're looking for is not on those pieces that maybe you've been hunting for years, and um, I just want to make sure that you know, going into each and every season, I have the the caliber of buck that um I'm I'm looking for it. And it gets and that gets harder as I get older and more further into this, UM. Because let's face it, I'm I don't care if you're in Ohio or Iowa or wherever you're at. You know, one fifty plus deer is just they're hard. They're hard to find, and and UM that that but that's the challenge, and that's you know, that's what I enjoy. I do like that part of it. So you're getting pick here and pickier. It sounds like, you know, every years many people do, they get higher and higher expectations or goals. And now you're trying to find buck of a certain caliber. Like that when you're trying to find new places, or when you're driving down the road and you see something and then you look at the map, what kind of criteria is it that you are looking for that makes you think, oh, that could be the kind of spot that has the type of buck I'm after. Now, like, how do you find that exceptional property? UM? I think the biggest thing is cover. UM. You know, the nastier it looks, the more I'm attracted to it. UM. And I've had some experiences over the years, and I think a lot of guys have gone through this. We go through you know, I have you know, some properties that you know I can I can do a lot of things too. I can put food plots in and I can do some um some hinge cutting those types of things. Um. I've gotten access to pieces over the years where I've went in and thought, man, this is a killer piece, and maybe I had it for a couple of years. I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna put all these food plots in it and everything else. And I actually made the some of these, some of these farms, I'm hurdle, to be honest with you, instead of I took away too much cover and the and some of the best pieces I think I've ever hunted are just nasty pieces. And I think that's where the older mature deer tend to light because I've gotten I've got access to a couple of pretty good sized farms that have a lot of big open timber on them, and they're to pieces, and they're just not nearly as good as this ten acre piece that is just nasty. Yeah, yeah, that seems to be. That seems to just just draw them in. Now here's something my buddy Andy and I were talking about this the other day. Do you think that you find the big old nasty buck in that thick stuff because that big old nasty buck sought that out and wanted to find the thickest, nastiest stuff to stay alive. Or was that a buck that just happened to grow up there and because it was thick and nasty he survived to become big and old. H I think he could go both ways, Um, I think. But I also think too that you know, you say, you say you have this twenty piece ands thick and nasty or whatever, and you go in there and you you kill that target buck. Um because it is so good and because the spot is so bullet proof. Um, when it comes to a deer being able to escape you, I think another deer just moves right in. Another mature deer a lot of times will to move right into one of those spots. But I don't know. I've seen it both ways, um, because I've I've grown deer on some places, and then I've also had places where, um, I've killed a buck and another buck moved right in. Yeah, it seems that that thick stuff like that is is in my experience, has always been a really good starting point. Like if you find that you know, you're in the general, You're in the ballgame. But then something I've kind of gone back and forth with throughout my deer hunting journey has been figuring out what's the next step, Like, what's like how do you work with that chunk of betting area or that swamp or that thicket or whatever it is. At times I always thought, leave it untouched, don't go in there, don't spook the deer, don't blow them out, hunt of the edges. And then other times I've started thinking, maybe I need to get more aggressive, Maybe I should be pushing in there, Maybe I should be you know, I've kind of waffled and tried different things, and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. And I heard you telling a story recently kind of similar to this, where you had gotten permission I think on a small property and a small thick area, and you, at this time, I think it was earlier in your deer hunting um career journey or whatever you you were afraid to go in there because you've always kind of heard some of the things I did, which which was don't blow them out, don't spook those deer um. But then your your friend Andre de Quisto, who a lot of us know from from Lone Wolf and all the different things he's done. He told you to go in there and and walk it, blow that deer right out of his bed if he had to. Um, can you tell me a little bit about that experienced that story and and what you learned from that? Was it was andre right? Was that the right thing to do? Yeah? For sure? For sure it was because in years past I would have never done that, because I would have I would have just given that deer that and would have started on the edges and tried to catch that deer um and not knowing that piece either. Um, that was the other tough part of it. So remember I remember I got access to that piece, and I knew there's two good there's actually two good bucks on that piece. How you know that? I? So, you know, a lot of guys like the scout. A lot of guys like to scout in the in the evenings in glass Fields. I don't like the scout in the evenings because I'm kind of an early bird. Plus I feel like I draw a lot of unwanted attention by my you know, by a park truck with a set of binoculars. Hanging out to the driver's side. Um. So, I mean, I I tend to go early, um, then late. I don't do I don't glass as much as I used to. But um but I told him about it, and he said, you just you need to just you need to just go in there, don't care, just learn a piece. And when you jump that deer up, then you you know, we're in the general vicinity where he is it likes to be at this moment in time. And it was like August, I think, And I remember going in there and bumping that deer out of his bed and and him escaping, and and and I just I still had this whole thought in my head. I'm like, oh my gosh, what did I Yeah, And I remember just like still cringing over that was like I don't know about that. But I had my way with that property at that point, and I was able just to do whatever I wanted and scout every bit of it, even though it was August and it was ninety degrees out and you know, you're, you know, dealing with the ticks and the mosquitoes and everything else. But I knew how everything laid in there, and I could see a lot of the old sign from from the year before, and and that just that just played out, you know perfect. I never caught up with that deer until um, I actually killed that deer the first week of gun season with my bow. Um we can, we can bow hunt during our gun season and I don't. I don't gun hunt, so um it took me a minute to catch back up to him. But there was a lot of things you know, I hadn't I had encounters with that deer prior to that that I probably wouldn't ever had if I had ever done that. And when that deer moved, he that deer left that farm for a little bit in November, and when he showed back up, I I set in my truck and UM watched that deer for two evenings in a row, and I just didn't have the wind where I where I wanted to be. And soon as the wind switched on that third day, I went in there and killed him. Did he do so he did the same kind of thing, or did he did he use the wind differently? Because this is something I'm always trying to do too, is is see historical movements and then when the wind gets right for you, go in there. But then the deer doesn't show up. And then I wondered to myself, well, did they not show up because I waited for the wind that worked for me? Um? What what was the scenario for you? It was kind of one of those you know, one of those winds where you're you're splitting the hairs. And I've always you know, Roger Roth I wrote about that in his books and in his book White Tail Magic years ago, and um, you know, it was hunting that edge wind and um, and you know, I call it flirting with disaster. That's what I call it, because you're on the edge of making it happen or not. And that was the wind that I had had. There was a little more of On the first two nights that I came out, it was a little more of a southeast to it, and the night that I that I've killed him, it was more a little more of the south southwest. So he still had it. I think he had that false sense of security and and the confidence of moving through that area. But I was just, you know, I was just on that edge and just flirting with disaster basically, And then it worked. That That taught me a lot, right then, Yeah, on the wind perspective. You're saying, Yeah, that that really like opened my eyes, Um, because I had heard that before and then I when I read that in Rogers book, Um, it made sense, you know. And I'm like, you know, yeah, I get that. I was always just like bumping that deer out of that bed that time. I was always nervous about I was always too nervous about getting busted. And I think that's the biggest problem. You know, Sometimes you have to get uncomfortable. And I guess what I mean is you have to you have to use some of those strategies and get out of your comfort little box that we all like to get and and stay in. And and sometimes that that just hurts you. Um, as far as trying to kill big deer, you have to try some new things. Yeah. But man, like you said, you are flirting with a disaster, and and how many times do you do it where it is disaster and it's not. You know, That's the tough thing is that it is it's so hard to pull off. I constantly, I constantly find myself trying to do that same thing. But it's right, It's it's easier said than done in most cases. Um, because there's there's so many little things that can go wrong, and you have to have everything go right to get that shot. I mean, you could pick the right wind. You could pick it so he feels comfortable coming out. You could pick it so that you don't think he's gonna pass where your wind is blowing, and you could still be in a position where he'll come through and think he's safe, but he won't realize you're there within shooting range. But then one dough could do the wrong thing and she slips there and blows everything out. I mean, how do you, like, what are some of the things you do to try to minimize that risk. I don't know. I'm constants. It's a constant struggle for me, Like are there any tricks you've found? Are there any things that you're thinking about, like to take it to the next step to actually make that flirty with disaster work More times than not, I think it's more of just one big thing is structure and terrain. Um those things will you know, and maybe you have some fallen trees, or maybe there's a big you know, uh, drop off from a creek, or or maybe it's a pond or what you know, those things help a lot when when you can use some stuff like that. Um, and and then other times it's um, cross your fingers and hope this works, because sometimes it's a one shot deal. And there's been times where I've had deer come in where the gig is up but my arrows already coming. Yeah, it's he's he's gonna bust your right when you shoot him. Yeah. Yeah, I mean just being right on that edge of of you know, blowing it all up. I killed I killed a deer. Um. It's been I don't know, probably seven eight years ago. He's actually on one of our White Teledictions episodes and um, he's a big white ten and he had some split brows and a little like drop or something at the at one of his basis that deer. I knew of that deer for a couple of years and and the night that I decided, okay, this is it. I'm going in to kill this deer tonight. Um, I had Can I put time out on you? Yeah, all right, I'm a jerk for doing this, But you gotta tell me before you keep going. You gotta tell me how you knew it was the night to go kill him? Okay, well, I was watching some cameras and and I just kind of I stayed out. And that's the other thing. You just you have to be patient, you know. You you only have just a couple shots at at these bucks sometimes, and and I just kind of set back and kind of let my cameras do the work. And then there was a lot of times too, like I would just maybe glass from far see if the deer was coming out to the field or whatever, but he was he was never actually had a food plot in there, and he was never he was never making into that food plot until after dark. Well, I'd seen I'd stepped back from observation stand and I could see some big rubs that were coming out, and I had a general idea just knowing the property about where the deer was. Well, I went in there and just poked around one day and there was a couple There was a hedge apple tree in there, and there was a pear tree. And that pear tree has never dropped any pairs since that day. I don't know what the deal is on that that tree, but it was loaded that year and and I just thought, he's he's staging up in here, he's hanging out before he makes it the rest of the way out. But what I noticed from the camera, like when he had a win that was not in his favor, he was showing up to three hours after dark. When he had a win in his favor, he was making making it in there and shooting and shooting light. And this was like October eight or so October nine, and I just kind of hung out and just kind of waited for this to happen, and the deer not showed up. He had a couple of days in a row where he showed up well after dark and the wind was switching. I'm like, well, if the wind switches that direction, he might show up in early. And I'm like, I just have to take a chance because he'll have that wind to his advantage as long as it doesn't lay down too much in the evening to create that swirl, because I swear once you get under five miles an hour, it's like and you just don't know. I mean, you're really risking a lot. I slid in there, hung my set, and that that was the only deer I've seen that whole entire evening, and he came out, and I probably watched that deer for eighty yards or so, And I'm not kidding you. He literally would walk five yards, stop, listen, look around, and just repeat. And he did that for eighty yards. Like he absolutely wore me out. How was so you you mentioned that the wind had shifted to be in his favor? Can you use that as an example to talk about how you positioned your stand because young hung a new set that day. It sounds like, so, how did you how did you use the way you thought he would use the wind and the way you were to use the wind to make it work? Like what was this paint that picture? I guess so I had, um, so where the apple and where the apple and pear tree the apple tree was, there wasn't very many apples in their left on that there's a ton of parents left. There was two big blowdowns, and I felt like he wouldn't come behind those blowdowns, um, just because he would end up, um, he would lose too much of of control of being able to scent check something for danger. So I got myself just on the one side of those where it was going to kind of force him to come up and around. But you know, but just where it was almost like where those blowdowns where like my son, my son was going to go right down those blowdowns and he was just gonna come right through the front. Now, obviously that's what I played in my head and thought was gonna work. It did work that way, but it doesn't always. Um, And and it kind of forced him to come right around. And at one point I the deer almost acted like and maybe with me being a little paranoid from watching him that long, but it almost seemed like he caught a little bit of me. Um. But then he calmed back down and then and then moved through. So that structure kind of kind of helped that deer kind of it forced him through where I wanted him. Um, It's that makes sense, yeah, and it does. It's it's one of those things. Um, I'm always looking for that. And when you find something like if it's the blowdowns, or if it's a river or a creek or a big drop off ditch or something like that, it's great. And then I just it seems like, for whatever reason, with my luck, whenever I want to find something like that, I'm in like the most wide open flat terrain with nothing special, It's gonna help me work it out. In too many doughs or something like that. So that's, uh, it's it's always tricky, but that that puzzle, I guess is what what makes it so interesting. Yeah, because you never know, I mean, and you have to you have to try stuff, and you have to be you know, trust me, I've I've blown. I've blown some pretty good opportunities or or um, you know, I've gotten you know, busted before they ever, you know, made it to me to be able to get a shot. But um, if you don't take any chances ever, you're you're you're taking a lot of opportunities away from yourself from filling tags. Well, it seems like that's something that's kind of consistent with with some of the guys that that you that you hang out with. It seems like, I mean, for example, andre Quisto, he's one of those people that a lot of us have listened to some of the things he said that that sounded like super aggressive, you know, going there and like like you like he told you that one day, like going there and blow him out of his bed, or you know the infamous bumping dump kind of tactic that I've heard him talk about. Um, I mean his that has has that mindset is that something? Is that a mindset that he has helped you developed too? Or or or how do you or or Andre or any of those guys? How do you? How do you? I don't know what I'm trying to stay here. Just I guess I'm trying to say, is how do you walk that line? How do you know when to get aggressive? How do you do it the right way? I don't know what's your thoughts on that general issue. So I think, Um, I never I don't get aggressive, like right off the bat. You know, I let some things kind of happen. And if I can kill a deer on an edge of a field or a food plot or whatever it may, maybe you know, I'll go the safer route. Um. But I also I also get a little bit of I know, sometimes I only have two or three hunts, and I gotta you know, I just know that a deer is gonna figure me out. Um. I've I've got down out of a tree before and stuck a trail camera right on a tree before in video mode, just to see. Man, you know what, I wonder if he's deer, you know, you see a big dough and she cuts your tracks and she and she trails you like a coon dog right through the tree. I always wonder, like at night, turey I leave, does this happen? And I've I've stuck a camera on a tree before, and and pad dear that I was that I was hunting at the time, trail me to my tree breaking. Yeah, So you're like, so, I you know, it's all situational. You have to follow your gut of when to get aggressive or when to set back and try to hunt those edges and and let things happen that way. Um. I the rut. You know, by the time I get to October or so, I start getting antsy like a big old buck because I'm like, oh god, I don't have that deer down yet. And I start getting a little like I know what's going to happen. He's going to he's gonna get up on his feet and he's going to start searching other properties. Somebody else is gonna kill him, get by a car. Um. So when I start getting at that time frame, UM, a lot of times I'm just like I'm just gonna go for broke. You know, I screwed up and screwed up because he's gonna leave the property and be all over the place anyways, So it's it's either now or never. When's the last time ahead? So that no, I was just I was just gonna say, so sometimes that's when that's when that kind of triggers me to to get much more aggressive and and start trying to kill those deer more in their bedrooms. So I was gonna say, when's the last time you swung for the fences like that? And it paid off. Um actually this past year. Ah, It's funny because uh myself and uh Andre and Cody and a few of us have talked about this before. I don't know where this was ever, wherever this was wrote and why this ever become a big, you know, hot topic, but of not Honey Mornings in October it was like, oh, you can't do that, you know. It's like somebody said that, and that was like, and I think there's some truth to that, but I also think that, um, you can. You can kill a good buck two in the mornings. And this past year, the deer that I that I was hunting and he got really he you know, I sat back and all of a sudden, I just I see this, dear, and he's getting super active in the morning. And it was like mid October cameras, you're seeing that. Yeah, yeah, just from trail cameras. And I see this, dear, and he's just he's getting super active in the morning and I and I typically would probably wait a little bit, but I'm like, you know what that cameras, I mean, it's not lying to you. I mean, this deer is walking in broad daylight in the mornings, and and he was working some scrapes um next to a little food plot that I had, and um, yeah, and there was another one of those times is like this is this is when you've got to be aggressive and like come out of your your comfort zone and get in there and try to kill the deer. And I went in there and I hunted the deer one time and killed him. Um. So, so those morning hunts in October, like you said, notoriously taboo, and and like you said, it seems like sometimes for a good reason, because they can be tricky. I've been really gun shay about that tour, about those mornings too, But it seems like if you if you've got the right situation and you do the right things, you can pull it off without spooking him on the way in or whatever. Can you can you just how you actually got in there and set up without blowing them out, because it's just so many times as mature bucks seemed to come back. Now, I know your cameras are telling you he wasn't coming back early, But how did you get in there? Was it a hanging hunt in the morning? How did you pull all that off? So it was a hanging hut in the morning. Um. And I was actually set up in a big pine tree, and so my access in that place is is really really good. Actually, I jump, I jump a fence and walk with the horses in there. And these horses, these horses will typically like walk right with me in there, so it kind of, you know, it kind of covers up everything that's going on. And I just walk with the horses all the way down. And then I just jumped the fence and it's literally from where the horses are to that tree is thirty arts maybe, and I can slide right in and get set up. Um. And you know, I only use a couple of sticks because with those you know, those pine trees, there's so many branches and and um, so I end up using a bunch of branches and stuff like that, so there's not a lot of that time and then just throw the stand in. So the access, you know, the axis is so so key in that spot and being able to to get in there um in the morning. If that deer was doing that on another farm where I didn't have that kind of access, I don't know, you know, I might have thought different. I might have said, Okay, well let me see, I'll let things develop more for the evenings. But that moon phase, UM, which I'm a pretty big believer in the moon in the moon phase of dictating a lot of deer when they when they moved, I think weather trump's everything. But uh, you know, coming off of that full moon, UM, on the back side of those full moons, seemed like the mornings are just really good and they're just really the deer just really active. And that's exactly what was going on that morning. And and I do believe that's what had him on his feet, UM because prior to that, probably five six days prior to that, the we had a good rising moon and he and and he got real active for like two days um in the in the evenings, and I was out of town on a work trip and I had a cell came in there and it was taken and I'm getting these pictures and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm about to leave this work trips. The downside of those cell cameras, Yeah, d your nuts. So I know so, and you know, I just couldn't you know the fact that every all the kids. And the other thing too, was it was one of the it was one of the first good cold fronts of October. And those first cold fronts of October, like that first one, that's just always killer. So you gotta you gotta elaborate on your moon, on your moon and stuff a little bit more. Do you feel do you pretty much follow the Red Moon Moon Guide uh theory verbatim? Or do you have any kind of angles on it that make you particularly excited about certain days or times or anything like that. How do you use that? You know, I do believe in that whole. I do believe in the Moon Guide and all that. I do think there's a lot of truth in that. And Adam Hayes that actually he was turned turned me onto it years ago. Oh when White Televiicitions was you know, first starting off, and I remember, you know, that being brought up then and um, I think you have about four days four to five days prior to a full moon that is just killer in the evenings, and then there's about a three day span um when that full moon is going on it just doesn't seem to be that great. And then you got about four or five probably four days um roughly after that full moon, and it just seems like the evening or the mornings are just really really good. And I like when when you're coming off the back side of that full moon, that's a that's a great time to slip in and hunt a buck in a bed, just because they're gonna be getting back late and you have you actually have a chance of getting in there and beating them in and and um and killing them on the way back. End. Yeah, it seems like it seems um that that approach right there with the moon is just another one of those sets of criteria that points right back to what we're talking about earlier, like when do you swing for the fences? When do you not? And you mentioned sometimes the trail camera data, sometimes it's the moon, or sometimes, like you said earlier, weather Trump's all but best case scenarios when all three combined, right, Like when you see all those things all meshing and pointing towards Wow, tomorrow, all these things line up. That's at least for me, when I get like the jitters, I can't sleep the night before, when I'm getting geared up that day, I'm just like pumped. I'm already sweating, Like those are the Knights, Like I know, this is the killing Knight, this is the killing day, whatever it is. Um, those are my very favorite parts of the season. When you have that anticipation and I think a lot of things that you just said there too, it's at confidence. You're going into that hunt with that confidence. And I think when you're confident and you're set up and you're scouting, I think that's just so I don't know, you're as a mindset and it just it just puts you in the game. Um, because if you're setting there and your second guess and your stuff yourself, then you probably should get down. Yeah, that's not a good place to be that mindset you mentioned. That's that's an interesting thing. Um. I mean, you've had tremendous amount of consistent success. Uh, your buddies like Andre or Heath or Cody or Adam has. All these guys are all consistently getting it done. Um, and in a lot of different places too. So it's not like you can't just say, oh, it's just because they hunted acre farm with huge bucks all time. You're getting done different kinds of places in somewhat different kinds of ways. I gotta believe mindset is one of the things that's probably consistent within you know, a lot of you guys. If you had to kind of describe some aspects of what that mindset is or what some of these consistent things are that that maybe you and your buddies all have in common, that you've learned from Andre or anything, that what would you think those things are that kind of set those elite deer hunters apart from your average ho home. Um. I think just having so much confidence and you're scouting that you just truly believe in your head that when you go in, you don't you never just sit to sit, Like when you go and you set you truly believe that you're going to kill the deer that you're after that night. Um. I'm so I'm a busy guy, um with work and family and everything, and like I don't you know, you know, I have a young son and and I don't want to miss out on some of those things, you know, with my family and stuff like that, because I'm just going out to set to set when I I when I go to set, I go to kill. And I think that's exactly the way that those guys think about it as well. They have done every bit of scouting that they can possibly think of doing and put a lot of different factors in their favor, from the wind to the moon to a cold front or all those things that when they go in, I think all I think every one of those guys, as you mentioned, I think they go in and I'm killing the steer tonight, and that's it. So that's scouting. How do you? How do you? How do you scout the right way to get you to that point? How do you? What are some of the things that you're doing? And I know you've mentioned some of that already, but if you had to like describe how to scout in such a way to give you that bulletproof confidence, what are some of those very most important things? Because I think when people here scouting, your new hunter might think, oh, walk through the woods, and if I see a rub cool, I'm gonna hunt that. But then when I talked to some of those elite hunters, it's a different level. I'm kind of curious what that different level looks like for you. You know. Typically, Well, if I'm speaking of here at home in Ohio, UM, I put a lot of eggs in my back in that basket of shooting a good buck in October or late season. I am not shot a lot of bucks in November here. I just haven't. I haven't had a lot of luck with it, and that I tend to to leave and go out of out of state. But I do so much in regards to learning the deer that i'm that I'm after a lot of times. I know of these bucks for several years. The buck I killed this past year, I knew for three years. The deer that I killed in two thousand and eighteen, I knew of that buck for four years. So I had a lot of information. And I think, like a lot of guys do these days, keeping very detailed troll camera records, paying close to attention to dates. Um, I tend to see a lot of deer, uh do the same things and the same dates on the same locations. UM. And I also look for that sign that was left from the year before, and in as far as maybe it's big rubs or maybe it's at one scrape that got opened back up again, UM, and knowing that that deer had did that same thing the year before, and UM and knowing my farms UM to be able to manipulate that situation to use all those all those scouting tools against that deer. UM. If that makes sense. I mean, it's kind of the way I do it. I use a lot of cameras. I think last year. I think I ran about cameras last year and how many unlike a I don't know if we're saying, ah, per hundred acres or per forty acres or something like that, Like what kind of density of cameras in a small area do you run, um, say it's a fifty acre farm, I might have you know, maybe before okay, maybe four or five something like that. And some of those cameras that I put out, and you know, some of them I put out like really early, and I just I don't a lot of times they just soaked and I never go in there and mess with them or anything, just because of where maybe they're at UM, depending on the situation. UM. And then I will at the you know, seasons over, I'll go in there and pull that SD card and then UM and dig and dig through it and start building the folder for you know, certain books and what they were doing and at certain times and stuff like that. Yeah, it's something that I've done a little bit and trying to do more of two. But it brings up a good question or something that I wondered a lot about, which is UM doing what you're describing there when you are targeting a specific buck and trying to learn that buck and kind of build up that portfolio of information like you described something like I've kind of fallen into a rut a little bit with my cameras where I know this, this is some properties that I know already. I know good places to get pictures. I kind of use them just to keep tabs on kind of inventory of are these bucks still around? They're They're safe spots to get to. I can easily come in and out. I'm not blowing things up, UM, But I have not used cameras as much to try to micro pattern a specific buck on a specific gear UM like some guys do. Some people will take their cameras and keep moving them. Every time they see a buck or every time they get new pictures, they kind of tighten the noose to the cameras. How do you go about with your placement? Are you doing kind of like the the safe inventory or do you move them around to try to fine tune what that buck is doing? Um? What are you doing there? Um? Typically? I typically I don't move them a lot. Typically I'm getting what I want UM already. Unless I see a deer from Afar and I not gotten a picture of that deer or something like that, then maybe, UM, you know, maybe I might move a camera. But even then, a lot of times if I see a deer from Afar and then my next move is slide over there and killing um instead of trying to go over there, and you know, um, booker up the spot by putting in a camera or something like that. UM. Typically, yeah, I do. I do make a lot of I like mox scrapes. I think they work great. UM And especially when you know being able to um you get inventory or um you know something along those lines. UM. What's been a real big tool for me for the last probably three years is I have one of the electric bike, and that's been a huge because I can literally fly around these these farms and nothing ever knows I'm there because my feet are even hit the ground. I mean, there's a lot of times I won't even let my feet hit the ground because I'll just pull right up and grab ahold of a you know, tree with my with my gloves on and pull an SD car out and boom, I'm I'm, I'm I'm taking off again. That's actually that's helped me too, And in regards to being able to hunt stands multiple times, because before it was, you know, the first time in was the best time. And well now, um, I don't think those deer and they're not cutting my back trail anymore. Um I've killed a couple of bucks with the with my bike at the base of my tree. Really, that's funny. I was just thinking about this earlier today, was kind of debating internally are the e bikes worth it? Are they? Is it just a fat is it? You know? Is it? I don't know, is it all it's cracked up to be. I've I've bounced back and forth. I've certainly seen or I understand the concept. The fact that you know, not having your boots hit in the ground is gonna be a good thing. And it seems to me that you know, rolling through on a bike is gonna be less less concerning to a deer probably then seeing or hearing the footsteps of a person. Would you say that, you know, those are the things that are making it so useful, And it kind of said you kind of said this made a big difference, but you you're bought in. Huh. I can ride right by dear better betted on that bike. And one thing I I have noticed, it's funny. I can ride right by deer that are bedded on that bike and as long as I don't stop or make a much eye contact. You know, if I really jerk my head around, they don't seem to like that and they get up or if I slow up or stop, I mean they're going to get up a move. But I feel like there's a lot of times I can slide right by them. Um they stay betted. They you know, maybe it's three or four does better on a fence row or something like that, and I can just go right by them where maybe in years past they would get up, take off and run into where the deer that I'm trying to kill is and then you know he's not coming out. Then if you know you've got stuff like that going on. Um. And the other thing is is like getting in and out of those tree stand like big part of it is is how many times have you walked in in mid October and it's a little warm out and by the time you get there, you've worked up a good little lather that bikes like an air conditioning unit. Yeah, that's a good point. It's a means tempting. Yeah, I I I love mine. Lind's a huge And the other part of it is too, um. You know you have if you have a family, and you know sometimes we're limited on time. Sometimes the things that might take us, say you're going to go check trail cameras that day or or whatever it is, um, or maybe you're gonna go over and just scout out something real quick. I can do it in half the time now and be home, um, spending my time or more wisely, I've gotten done everything I wanted to in the white Tail Woods, but now I'm back home, you know, spending time with my family. Yeah, it's all about efficiency. What do you think about impact from an e bike compared to like an a TV or a UTV or driving up with your truck and checking a camera. Do you feel like it's even less of an impact than something like that. I think driving up on a truck, I just don't think. I don't think that bothers them that much. The a t V s, I do think that does bother them. I've seen it. I've I've been in bedding areas hunting with deer around me, and here like a t VS fire up on. Say I had a lease or something like that with you know, a couple of buddies or whatever, and they hear those a t v s. And I'm telling you, they they do not like them. They I think they've had a lot of bad experiences with them, um over the years, and they just seem to be bothered by just to sit there and watch deer that are completely bedded and comfortable and to hear that a TV. Now they're on their feet and they're nervous. There definitely is a stronger noise association, probably just because it's such an aggressive sound. I'm sure they can have not They've got great ears no matter what. They'll hear truck too, But yeah, it does. I do wonder about that. When you're rolling through on a bike, it just just feel stealthier, and maybe that ends up being the case. Yeah, I just and it is nice though when you can, you know. I know, there's times where I might have some cameras out where I can pull right up with my truck and literally out the passenger or at the driver's window, and um pull SD cards And I don't think. I don't think that bothers. Um. I know, tractors definitely don't bother them. I mean, oh my god. There's times where I'm putting food plots in and the deer just pouring out in the other section of the food plot, you know, and um, they just don't seem bothered by those, the tractors at all. Speaking of that, UM, I've seen the same thing. But then I've always worried. So I'm fast forward now towards the harvest time. I had a situation where I was chasing a buck last year during the fall, and I can't remember exactly, it was sometime in November, and I had a situation where the farmer had picked part of the field but not all of it yet, and I went in there for moved to the spot for the evening hunt, and just like two rows had been picked right in the edge of the field. So I was sitting there with the edge picked but still standing on the interior, and everything was lined up good with wind. And I think I saw him the day before something, and I felt good that, you know, he'd be visible and would come out here checking all these doughs that I thought would flood into that just pick stuff. And the farmers hadn't come. It was just about prime time, and I thought this, this is ideal. And then they showed up with like an hour and a half left or something like that, and they started picking in and I I've seen plenty of times where dear feel pretty comfortable with the with the tractors and everything, But at the same time, I haven't seen like a mature buck step out and not be spooked. Once the tractor comes rolling by, you know, within fifty yards him, he'll bump off into the woods again and they come back out late or something like that. So I decided, because of my positioning, I couldn't shoot into the timber because there's a property line back there, and my only shot would be if he came into the field, and I decided, you know what, with the tractors moving through here, I just don't think i'll actually get a shot at him. I got to move to another spot where he won't be you know, if he does come through, he won't be spooked by that tractor circling through over and over again. So I moved, and then I sat there that whole time thinking maybe I should have stayed. Maybe I should have stayed, because that's where all the doors ended up being. Anyways, what have you what have you found? As far as that? Would you would you set up on a field that's getting picked in November? Or would you try to get inside a little bit? Um? I would probably try to get inside if they're out there and during that time, and if they're out there, you know, driving the grain wagons and filling them up and run run on the combine and stuff like that, I would probably step back a little bit because I would just in my head, I would think that a mature deer would not want to be out there, um during that that time frame. Um. But then again, I've seen where you know, it's November eight or ninth, you know, and there's dose out there. I've seen some You know, I've seen some big bucks right out there with them too before. UM. I think it all has to do with the timing of the year of when that's you know, when that's happening, um where, But then the following day after that's taken place, and say they they've came in and picked the beans or corn or whatever, you can guarantee you that that field is gonna be hot for a good little bit. You can't beat that. Um. Speaking of something like that, one of the things that you mentioned a little bit ago, and I wanted to go back to kind of all around fresh hot inteler sign versus old sign or old intel and kind of working off of annual trends or patterns. So I know you you've said you've seen dear do the same thing year after year to a degree. Um. At the same time, I know I've I've heard you say in folkus like Andre or Dan Infault or different people get really fired up about fresh hot sign. How do you think about the importance of those two things? You know, if you see a red hot fresh rub, big rub or something, is that more important to you than knowing that such and such buck came through here? You know, two weeks earlier the last two years. Um, it's kind of curious what you think about the two different types of sign, how that factors into your decision making process. Um, I think, I mean, I'm going to use every part of that. You know, I'm gonna use the information that maybe documented through troll cameras over the years of having a deer maybe moved through a certain area at the same time. But uh, you know, I've always been like, I've always been interested in sign and big rubs. I mean that's always had me super excited. And you know, and I remember like years ago, always you know, in scouting with my grandfather years ago. You know, if you can stick four fingers in there, you know, um, that's that's typically a good buck. And you know the length of the track and and and uh you know, and the way maybe a certain deer's track is is shaped, maybe he's got a you know, maybe there's a little thing there to identify that deer from years past or whatever. But UM, I love fresh sign. I mean, the if it's red hots fresh, I mean, there's nothing better. I think a lot of times guys hunt, I think a lot of guys hunts sign that's just too old, Like you know, that's a week or two old. Um, where I tend to Yeah, I look at it and and try to soak it in. But um, if if if I'm looking for big rubs, you know, I want sap coming out of you know, I want something. I want the sap coming out of that thing and fresh you know, and the the fresh tracks or you know, the scrapes that have just been hit or um. But I you know, but then again, I sometimes I'll set back a little bit and watch that sign and maybe see if I can see that deer and then make my move. Um. I do a lot of observations sets um. And if I see a deer do something, I typically don't like the let him do it again without killing him. Um. I like to just go right in. Okay. So this is another one of those things that I'm always finangling with myself. Is what you just described. You see a buck do something once and it's okay. Do you wait to see if it's a trend or do you go in there right away? It sounds like you go in there right away. Um. When you tell me about how you set up, do you set up as if he's going to do the exact same thing, or do you set up with some kind of knowledge. Okay, I know he came from there, but now I think because the wind is a tiny bit different, or because I think something else. I just walked me through how you choose to set up on that next day after the observation, because that's that's a really important move when you make that that swing for the fence move. UM. I always, always, the wind is always the biggest factor in it all, whatever the wind's doing. If it's the same thing as it was the day before, which is preferably what you really want, because then you know he felt comfortable enough to move, then then then that determines a lot of how you know, how I move in. And I still I still go with that flirting with disaster um nine times out of ten because I just seemed to I see a lot more big deer on their feet by using a wind that you know has something to their advantage. Um, And just try to get off to the you know, one side of that um. And and if it's not the same, then I might say, Okay, I think he's gonna you know, I play it out of my head and I think, okay, maybe he's going to, you know, hook around this end um of this ridge or this you know, this field edge or whatever it might be, and just try to think. I try to anticipate his movement um basically off of just if I was him, what I would do. Do you do you hear something I'm curious about. Do you feel like the wind direction influences not just the way they're going to travel, but also where they choose to bed. Because when when I'm thinking through that scenario you just laid out there, the first thing I thought was, Okay, just like you said, if it's the same wind the next day, then I'm going to go in there kind of thinking he'll do something similar because the winds the same. If the wind is different again, I would think, okay, it's a different wind, So I'm gonna make some assumptions he's gonna adjust a little bit. But I can still take something from the observation yesterday, which maybe could be Okay, I know where he came from, So let's say it's an evening hunt and I'll make I can then assume he's probably betted somewhere over there. That's the clue I'm going to take away from the observation yesterday. But if it's a different wind, do I need to worry that maybe he betted somewhere completely different because it was a different wind direction. How do you feel about wind impacting that? Oh for sure. I mean I've seen them bed all the way. Say you have a field and there's two different wood lots. I've seen them bed you know, uh in one wood lot one day based off the wind, and then the next day everything switches and their bed in a complete in the in the wood lot across from the field. Um. I definitely, I definitely, I think that is a huge factor. And I you know, I think Bucks have typically I think they have two or three different betting areas, um, you know, based upon what the what the wind and the train is doing. And um, you know, I think they're you know, and you get into stuff, you know, you get into stuff with some hills and some some valleys and stuff like that, and they're gonna they're gonna use those those thermals to their advantage, um in a in a big way too. And U uh um, yeah, I I totally agree with you. And I think that they have several different betting areas typically. No, I don't think one buck has just one bit one bed. I just don't think that's possible. Yeah, Now, have you ever nailed down a buck so well that you could predict, all, right, if I've got a south or west, he's probably gonna bettered in this little area. If I've got a north or east, he's probably better in this area, or anything like that. Have you ever been able to nail it that consistently that you could predict which general betting area he's using based off a wind direction or anything. I would to say I can completely um, because everything it seems like every time I think I have a completely figured out, then I get, uh, you know, the master makes me look like a fool. Yeah. Um, But yeah, I think I've I've come close to that, But I can't say that I've ever had it so narrowed down that um um that it was just a done deal sort of thing, which you kind of have to work as if you do right. Like this is one of the things I was thinking to myself about last year. I started going into hunts with this idea that sometimes you make assumptions like you have these clues, like you've you've watched this buck and you've seen and so you you go into a hunt and you assume, Okay, I think, because I've got a certain winter action, he's probably bettered over here, or you saw him moving last night and he went into this food source or something. So you have these different clues and you're assuming that something's going to happen. I used to go into my hunts assuming something would have upen or thinking something would happen. But then I'd keep on trying to prepare for contingencies. So I'm like, oh, I think he might come out into this food source, but he might go here instead, but he might go here. So then sometimes i'd find myself picking a tree that kind of is in the middle of it, so okay, maybe he could come here and maybe come here, and maybe come here. But then last year, I think it was I started saying, well, if you do that, then you're never in the perfect place for the one thing, and so if he does come through and he doesn't do the one perfect thing, you're screwed. Um. So I started operating under this another idea where I was I would instead going to hunt and I'm thinking through these clues and I'm making assumptions. But then I'm going to eventually pick what I think is the very most likely thing, like my Plan A, and then I'm gonna set up perfectly for Plan A and assume that's the truth. So I'm gonna say, Okay, it's a south wind. I'm going to assume he's better in this area. So now I'm going to do everything perfect for that scenario. I'm gonna make sure that there's no way my wind blows in there. I'm gonna make sure there's no way that something happens. I'm gonna set up in the perfect tree for this scenario, um, rather than just being in like a general zone because I think, well, this, this, this, and I can't remember where it was I heard you say this, but you said something very similar. You said that there was a shift for you when you went from hunting the area to hunting the tree. Is that do you think through things kind of similar to what I was just describing there or how do you do that? Oh? I for sure that was a big when I first started like really getting after like and I sat out and I was like, man, I want to I want to kill it. Pope and young Block, you know that's a gross Pope and young Deer that's really what I want to do. And I had a climber and you know, I mean, you're so limited with those climbers. And I felt like a lot of times I was just off the mark because I was forced to hunt uh a tree that was more like a telephone pole than aware I truly needed to be. And then once I I switched over and got introduced to you know that climbing sticks and hang on and stuff like that, that changed everything for me as far as being able to, um, not just see the deer that I was after, but to be in the tree and and get a shot opportunity at a good buck. That that changed a lot of things for me as far as my success rate, um going going up from there. And I think a lot of times we we searched for these perfect situations and you know where you're not giving up anything at all, um, you and you just have to you just have to learn to kind of live with that part of it, Like, man, I gotta I gotta give some stuff up here because it's just I mean, that's where I need to be. But you know, um, they're gonna have you know these you know this these deer or the I mean they're gonna have some advantage um to that. Um, And that just made when I started hunting the tree is when, you know, when my success went went way up. I think a lot of people just fall on the run of of you know, so many people out there just you know, they have their ladder stands and they get out there every single year and kind of hunt the same spots and and a lot of guys do you know they do well with that. But um, but I also see a lot of those guys, you know, kill a good buck every three or four years, and I just I work way too hard at this to kill one you know that far and few in between. I you know, I want to kill a good buck every year if not too Yeah, do you think that you're are you picking the tree? In most scenarios for you? Is is picking the killing tree happening in March? Or is it happening on October? Um? Both? I think that's I think it's both. I think a lot there's times, especially here where I'm I'm scouting and um, and I know a lot of my farms pretty well. Unless it's a new piece of ground or something like that, then um, if it's a new piece of ground, I won't hang a stand on it at all, because I have to hunt it to be able to figure that part of it out. And sometimes it might take me a little bit to figure that out. I feel like you need sometimes a couple of years to really like dial that in and say, okay, like I really really know, um, what's going on. But if if it's a farm I've been hunting for a while and I know it based off of the deer movement I've seen in the past, and so and so forth, and also maybe maybe there's some crop rotation that year where maybe in uh a year before that, or something I notice, Um, a certain area was really yeah, I'll go in there and hang a stand and and and leave it. Um. I have quite a few stands that I leave in my farms. But um, but then again, I also read that sign and as season goes on, and and pay attention to my cameras and and and make a move when I need to. I mean when I when I go out of state. UM, I typically never leave any stands hanging anywhere on any farms I hunt out of state. I mean, it's a scout mid day, it's a hang it I hunted that evening, I'll leave all my stuff, including my bow and everything in the tree, and I come right back in haunted again the next morning, and either I'm in the spot and I stay put based on if the winds still good for me, and if it's not, I just tear it back down and scout some more and just repeat, repeat, repeat, until I kill a buck. Yeah. I've always I've I've thought, and I've sort of wished, but I can't quite make myself do it. But I've always thought it would be pretty cool to just take a season and not hunt and instead just follow someone around, like follow you around, follow Andre around, follow Adam around, and get to just kind of stand behind your shoulder when you go into a scenario like that, and then have you talk out loud everything you're thinking about as you're walking through the woods and they're scouting session and as you're you know, picking the tree, and as you're sitting there in the tree that night and trying to deliberate about what to do the next day. That would be so fascinating. Um, I just can't give my can't convince myself to give up my actual hunting. But if if I did that, if I somehow convinced you to allow me to walk with you in the woods hand your doing your scouting midday, and you found the zone and now you're going to pick the tree. Can you walk me through what would be going through your mind as you are trying to, like and maybe there's a specific past scenario you can describe or maybe you can imagine something, um, but kind of walk me through all the things that are going through your mind. Is you're trying to pick the killing spot, um on that day on November eight or whatever it is. So um, I'm just kind of thinking back on a hunt from a few years ago in Iowa, and I had noticed I was hunting the backside of this farm and I was coming and I was I was coming out after a morning hunt, and I noticed that there was some really good sign up along this timber edge and had this whole hillside that was just just covered and just just the nastiest stuff that you could you can imagine. And I remember coming out and I'm like, man, I need I need to set up somewhere in here because it just based off the sign and there was a couple of big scrapes that I could tell that they had just been hit and and just the train features and everything, just the way it laid, it just felt right. You know. It's just sometimes you just gotta, you know, go off of some gut feeling too sometimes. And I don't know why did this, um, but and I didn't have to stand with me. I had to went back up to the truck and get a stand and sticks and then come back and then hunted that evening or whatever. I went and hunted a completely different farm that that evening because I had a stand already hung in there. So I went the lazy route and and we all do this at times, and I was out there. I've been like, I was there for about four or five days, and I think I was getting kind of tired. And I went back after that evening hunt, and I'm like, why didn't you go over there and hang that set? You saw the sign all the sign was there. And I remember sitting and thinking, I'm like, you know, what if the wind, if that wind, If I look at this phone and that wind is coming out of the north for tomorrow mornings, hunt, I got a feeling those bucks are going to cruise that down one side of that of that whole hillside that's just nasty. And there's gotta be a ton of dose in there. And I pulled that phone out. I looked at it and I thought, that's it. That's that's what it's doing. And I went over there that morning in the dark, and I hate doing hanging haunts in the dark, um because you just you never know. Once you get up there, you're like, oh, this is great, but I can't shoot anywhere. Well that light comes up, It's like, oh boy, what are we gonna have? What's that? It broke up pretty good, I said. When it starts getting light out, you're always kind of crossing your fingers, yeah, because you just you have no clue, um what you're gonna, you know, be dealing with. So I go in there, hand to stand. I see two shooters at morning, I mean two good ones, and I was about eight yards off the mark and we all kind of do this a little bit, and you're like, man, you know now I got to tear this whole thing down again and move it over there. But I just knew it. I had to do it, you know, I just had to do the work. Well that's what I did, and I tore it down, slid it about yards over there because the one because one of the bucks came out of this ditch, and then another one later on headed into that ditch, and I thought, well, I'm going to catch either one of them, you know, one of these two bucks, and I'd shoot either one of them. And so I moved that set, I did the work, and the that that evening, it was just a downpour and I couldn't even I couldn't even hunt it if I wanted to. So um, and I left everything in there, like I left my bow and everything in the tree. I'm I'm pretty I'm pretty good about that. And and so I go back in the very next morning and and gets and get in that tree. And it was brain pretty good even that morning when I got up and I go out there, and that deer, one of the deer that came out of the drainage the day before, he came back out of out of the drainage and went up that hillside that morning, and I waited till he got up. I didn't want to call to him. I wanted something to block because I hate I hate calling to a deer. And they just turned around and just like boom, they're right on you. You know, like they've already figured out exactly you know where that is. And there, you know, they bust in a tree. I let him get up the hill a little ways that he got behind a cedar, and I snort wheezed at him, and I saw him stopping and swing his head around and I could just see, I just I could just see his cage turn and he stood there for a second. I knew he was thinking about it. So I waited until he slowly turned his head back the opposite way again, and I had him again um and snort wheeze at him, and he came right down um and gave me like a yard shot and and and it was, you know, it was that that scouting and doing the work and and seeing that sign, thinking about what the wind was going to do for that following morning. Um, for two days in a row, it came out the north and blew straight down and those bucks did I mean, they just cruised that that downwards side of that betting narrative area and it just it just played out perfect. So I've got to follow up questions on that one. The day before when you're sitting there hunting and you saw the two bucks do that move eight yards away? What time did you get down to make your move? This is something I always debate internally too. I'm always wondering, you know, what is the exact best window that is the should you just go right away or should you wait till you think the lowest part of the day will be and make your move? When do you if you have like a mid day hanging hunt move that you're gonna make, when's that window you like to do it? I tend to be a little more. I kind of waited out a little bit just to you know, just to make sure kind of thing. But about thirty, um, you know, I'm I'm sliding over there, and and that gives me a little bit of time to to find that, you know, to scout a little bit more. Um, and you know, I already already saw what this deer we're doing. So a lot of times I'll scout up so far and I use I'll use my binocular as a fair amount to scout up ahead of me. So I'm not laying any you know, at any ground sent down up ahead of me where they might cross it. Maybe you know, when I'm you know, at night or whatever it might be. Um, you know, I'll say, okay, I can. I can kind of see that trail over there. That's where they seem to want to be. I don't need to go any farther than this. I'm about twenty or twenty five yards away, I mean, and I put the brakes on and and and get set up. But yeah, about probably ten thirty eleven o'clock and then that way I can have have my have my way with that spot. Yeah. That that seems to be kind of where I've thought that sweet spot is because it's it's late enough that there's not that super early morning movement, but you're not quite into that you know, midday window where those big bucks sometimes getting their feet and start cruising again. Of course it can it can vary, It could be any time, but I kind of feel like that ten to eleven windows a little bit of a possible lull. So I like that too. Um. Now a little more on how you picked that specific tree though, So you moved in there after you saw them. You wanted to be down into that thick bedding area, but closer to that ditch where they came in and out. You're glassing as you work your way over there. How did you end up picking that specific tree to hang up. Um. I'm curious where you paying attention to height or how how you could get into a tree. Did you look for a certain kind of tree? Um? Did you I don't know, anything like that that was running through your mind? Or did you just want to be within shooting range of that ditch trail that was coming in and out and making sure the wind wind blow there. I wanted to be within Uh. You know, it all goes back to hunting the tree, and I wanted to be in the tree that's gonna give me at least a shot opportunity at that that ditch over there, I felt like that ditch was kind of like the key to everything. Well, then I get over there, and Um, the next thing I was, I don't height does not make a difference to me at all. I mean I see guys that will hunt super high and and sometimes that when the higher you get, the smaller you're that that kill zone gets. UM. That particular tree I was probably I don't know, probably twelve ft, but I had the cover, UM, and that was the most important thing to me and and will always be. You know a lot of times, you know Kansas, we go out there and um, we get in those cedar trees sometimes and my god, I'm you know, I'm five six ft off the ground and I'm like bulletproof and nothing or bust me out of those things. Um, I think. And I knew too, because that was kind of in the bottom down there, like even being that low, even if the winds coming back over, but being in the bottom in the morning, I knew when that rise happened in the morning, I knew everything was just gonna get sucked straight up. Um as well, and um it made that It made that spot like literally bulletproof. And it's funny because of knowing about that spot. I returned to that same farm three or four years later whenever I drew another tag and I could not get a north wind, like literally the whole time I was there, I was like, oh my god, I need I want to get back in there. I know that spot is still good. And as soon as I did, I got in that same tree and killed another buck. Wow. Pretty awesome. You find a spot like that. Yeah, it's just one of those spots that It was funny because my buddy that owns that farm, when I first killed that first buck there He's like, where did you shoot that buck at? And I told him He's like, I've never even hunted over there before. And I'm like, really, I'm like, dude, I'm telling you that spots. I'm telling you that's that's the spot. And and then I come back out there a few years later, and I kept telling him. I'm like, man, I want this wind to switch out of the north. I want to get back into that spot again. And he goes, you know, I still have never gone over there and hunted that section. And I'm like, I'm telling you that spot is money. I said, if I can get back in that trede this week, and if I don't have one down already, so I'll kill I'll kill a bucket over there. And by eight o'clock that morning, I texted him I said I said I just smoked one. And he calls me and he says, did you really. I'm like, I'm telling you this spot is It's just it's bulletproof. And I was on the phone with him and um and and uh. He's like, man, I'm gonna have to go over there and and uh and set this evening and and see if I can't get a crack at one and and so we got my dear out and we came and he came back, and I and jumped up in my stand and and he almost killed another big one that evening. Sometimes those spots are it kind of goes back to the annual trend thing a little bit, like things happen for a reason. I always try to when I see something or I find like a hot spot like that where I see a buck do something, I try to analyze, you know, why it happened, because usually things don't not always, but usually things don't have upen by chance. There's usually a reason why buck moved through a certain area. Um So in that case, maybe it was that cover feature and the terrain features all coming together that you know, year after year bucks are going to use that area. Um Or when you see a one off deer setting at some other point, you think about, like you know, you described like how he was using the wind, to think about why he moved that way or why he did this that. That seems to be another one of those, UM I don't know things that I keep hearing from folks year after year having success. They're always asking why, They're always trying to kind of micro analyze observations or data to kind of again, it's that idea of pick pick the tree, not the zone. It's you know, get the details right, not the not the the fuzzy big picture. Um. It just seems to be the difference. It's you know something you know, something I picked up with with Andre a long time ago was the fact that, I mean, here's a guy that I mean, my guy. The guy's killed like eighteen gross boon of Crockett's, you know, with the bow and his i mean, his living room is ridiculous. You know, it's like, you know, like the kind of kind of bucks and how many bucks this guy has killed over the years. You know. The one thing I've always noticed about him is whenever he's talking to somebody, like you know, just working shows and stuff like that with him, or just you know, you know, us being around just other people and talking, I always see him asking a lot of people questions. And it's funny to me that a guy as successful as as he is, that he's asking anyone questions. But you know, he's always trying to soak it in. I think that's what has been my observation with him times. That's very interesting. That's very interesting. And that's it's it does seem to be one of those things. No matter how successful you are, those very best deer hunters are constantly still trying to learn. They're constantly still trying to find what that next thing is, what's that next edge they can find? Um, it's it's a lifelong process. I guess right, yeah, for sure, What do you think? What do you think you're if you had to identify like the next area that you need to work on, is there any kind of weakness or is there any kind of thing you're really still curious about or that you're still trying to nail down? Um? Does anything jump to your mind when I want to bring that up? Yeah, you know one thing that I would like to be a better rut hunter, if that's possible. Like, I don't I have a tough time with the rut. It's you know, I don't get me wrong. I for sure I've shot some you know, great bucks um in November, but that's a really frustrating time for me because the randomness. Yeah, I mean, just uh of of dear, just I'm like, I'll get into the routine just like everybody, you know, like I'm gonna hunt some downwards side of some some dope betting areas, or maybe I might hunt a pinch here there or whatever. Um, it's just I feel like the rut is just luck half of the time. There's not a lot of skill, um that that goes along with was shooting. You know, those bucks train features are probably the biggest thing I think. Um, but yeah, I would like to definitely, you know, better my skills had, you know, learning how to the hunt the rut more efficiently than than what I do. Well, that's probably a good thing. There's a lot of guys probably that are in the reverse situation where the only time they can kill a good buck is during the rut and they need to try to figure out on the other sides. So it's it's nice to be in the scenario where you can kill bucks pretty consistently in the tougher parts of the season than the other way. UM. One last couple of questions. I've been talking to you're off here for a long time, but I had to like specific tactical questions related to what we were just talking about a second ago. Um, back to the setting up on these hanging hunts. M Um, Number one when you're moving to midday to set up in a new spot and you found that perfect tree, do you do trimming or do you are you're worried about spooking things and you're not gonna trim like. That's something I'm always debating is is how much how many lanes do I open up? Do I do anything? Or do it just quietly get set up and hunt? Um? I guess just answer me that trimming. What's your perspective on that? On these middle of the day hanging hunt type deals, I definitely trim. Um. I prefer not to if I don't have to, that's my you know what I prefer um Sometimes UM in those cases, if it looks like to say, I'm gonna have to trim a lot, then then I that's where I'm definitely gonna try to stay low to minimize that, because the higher you get, the more trimming that you're gonna end up getting into. Um. I. But yes, I've I've got into some trees before where I knew I should have done some trimming and didn't, and it cost me a dear. UM. So I don't do that anymore. If if I need to open up something, I'll little bit, but I don't. I always keep in perspective of my shots are twenty yards, you know, twenty yards and don't try to Um. I see guys get a little nutty with with the triman and um ends up costing a deer because you know they crack him beforehand. Because um, you know, I grew up a big coon hunter, um you know, and and was way into that when I was a kid, and a good coon dog will drift a track from a distance. And so if if a dog can do that, a deer definitely can do that as well. So UM, I want him the least make it to that location before um, before that that scent that drifted in their direction froze him up. So you don't want to be walking all over the place opening up fifteen different shooting lanes. No, no, maybe one two. Yeah, there's a there's the window types of trimmers like that, and then there's the uh the air the runway strips. Some guys like those two. UM I tend to be more along your lines. UM. Okay, one more question on that line of thinking, which is you do a lot of the hanging hunting. Your running with a lot of folks that do that kind of stuff too. Uh. Do you have a pro tip or two as far as the actual setup of sticks and your stand that have helped you do it more quietly or quicker or more efficiently. Are there any little systems you put in place over the years that made you good at that? UM? You know I've been I ran the you know, the lone Wolf standard sticks for years, and ran the XOP standing sticks as well. UM, you know all the quist of the line stands, but now you know I'm running all the long Wolf Custom Gear standard sticks. It's to me, it's the most thought out UM system that is on the market. And I'm not just saying that because you know, I'm affiliated with those guys, but I do believe it's it's the lightest, it's the um the way it stacks. UM. Like this year, I'm gonna run you know the one the low Wolf Custom Gear one point oh with the mini sticks with the eight ers. I think the whole thing is like ten or twelve pounds. I mean it's next to nothing. UM. The you know, the lighter, the better. Uh. Something that UM Actually Honora showed me instead of running the straps all around the stands like we used to do and all that kind of stuff. I put just a little bag on the bottom of my seat that hangs down on and I throw all my all my straps in there so they're not just all over the place and you're wrap. I'm not doing that anymore. That's just a mess. Interesting. Now, what about your getting up in the tree process with the sticks? How do you how do you run that? Do you have them hanging off of you as you climb up in the tree or do you pull them up on a rope? Uh? What's that look like for you? Um? I always put the stand on my back and then first stick on and then um. Typically, Uh, the way I've always done it in the past is I just take the other three sticks or two sticks, or however many sticks, and I'm I'm gonna run moving forward from that ground ground stick and UM. I just always hang them on a branch. And I always have my stuff. Um, you know, I already have my um my, my bag. My bag is usually attached to my stand, and once I get up, I take, you know, take a screw in, throw my bag on there and then pull my stand off and then hang it and then my bows already tied to the string that is is um on my stand and then that way I don't have to come up and down the tree. Um. I try to minimize that as much as possible. Yeah, that seems to be the way to do it, all right. Justin I am sufficiently fired up for for some white tails. What I really want to do right now is go drive some fields and scott for bucks. But I think I have to go in and feed my kids instead, So I guess that's comes back to the efficiency thing, to figure out a way to be able to do both. But I might What I might do is act like I'm still doing this podcast with you, and maybe do some of that driving around and say, oh, it just ran over a little bit. It's a pretty good smart You've got to figure it out, all right. So one and a half sort of questions, and then we're gonna close this down really quick. Last question I asked. I'm starting to ask more and more people this every time. If you had a billboard on the side of the highway that all these deer hunters are gonna drive by every day, and you wanted to to just leave one lasting message with all these guys and girls, what would you put on that billboard. Um, sometimes you have to get uncomfortable. I like it. That's a good take home from those those stories. That's been a theme for sure. All right, that's a good billboard. Get uncomfortable, get outside your comfort zone sometimes go for the fences. Last question, justin. If people want to see your episodes of White Tell Addictions or follow along with anything that's going on from the show or loan Will Custom Gear or anything like that, where can they see your stuff and all that other stuff too? Um, you can go to uh the Lone Wolf Custom Gear YouTube page. That's where um, you'll find all the White Tail Addictions episodes and um and a lot of the old the old episodes that are on there as well. Or go to www Dot Lone Wolf custom Gear dot com. Um, that's our website. That's where all of our gears um. Or you know you can follow me on Instagram, um at uh I'm actually it's not justin Hollinsworth's Mason's Dad get your straight yeah, and or Facebook or or whatever. Um. Uh that's where you'll you'll find all of our stuff at very cool all right, justin, I I've enjoyed this. Thank you so much for taking so much time to h talk Bucks. I really appreciate you having me on. This was fun. I love it. Let's let's stay in touch and exchange some pictures this fall with a couple of dead bucks. Huh for sure, I love it. That's the best part about this. I agree. All right, well talked against him justin Thank you. Thanks all right, thanks for tuning in for this one. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. Uh. I'm raring to go. It's summer, velvet Bucks are out there in the fields. Fall is going to be here before we know what, my friends, So get outside of your comfort zone, start doing something different, start working harder, working different. Break the routine now and then prepared to do so again in the fall. Until next time, Thank you again. I appreciate everything, your support, your time, your interests, your ratings, your reviews, your comments, your questions. Um it means the world. So until next time, thanks and stay wired to hunt.

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