00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. All Right, welcome to the wire Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. Today, we've got Kip Adams. Now, a lot of you are probably familiar with Kip. He works over at the Equality Deer Management Association. He's been on the podcast many times before, and most of those have been for this State of the White Tail Union podcast that we have each year. Kip will tell you more about this in a second, but a very high level overview of what we're gonna do here is review a document, a report that Kip helps develop every year which highlights the top stories and issues and data across the deer hunting world each year. So looking at harvest data, looking at big trends, looking at various issues that are of importance at this time for deer and deer hunting. That's the kind of stuff we're gonna talk about. So we're covering I don't know, dear harvest numbers, AIG structure, other trends in deer population and deer hunting, changes and weapons use and how that's impact two populations up changes and hunter numbers and recruitment, a little bit on the latest with diseases like e h D and c w D and other major legislative proposals that are important for US hunters to know about. All that kind of stuff that we as deer hunters need to stay on top of. KIP is going to help us cover, So I don't want to beat around the bush too much today. UM don't have Dan. We'll catch up with Dan next week, So today we'll be kind of quick one, so we'll get right into it. I just want to give you a couple of quick reminders on some other things you can be checking out. If it's you know, it's that winter time frame, Kevin fever setting in. If you're like me, you're dreaming of wanting to be outside doing some of these different things. So let me recommend two things for you. Number One, if you still haven't watched the Back forty series, highly highly highly recommend you do that. That is the TV show essentially that I was the host of last year, documenting the story of us buying and learning and starting the process of trying to improve this property in Michigan and then hunting it. Check it on out. So over in the Meat Eater YouTube channel. There's eight episodes and very proud of how they turned out, and the new season is starting to be filmed here very shortly. So make sure you're all caught up. Number two, if you're craving some big public land adventure, if you're craving western hunting trip or float trip, or climbing a mountain, or hunting elk or hunting caribou, if any of those things are in your mind these days when you lay in bed at night. A book you might really enjoy is That Wild Country. That's my new book I published just a couple of months ago. If you haven't picked up a copy yet, it would mean the world if you could. So far, reviews have been great. People are really enjoying it, which is amazing to hear. So so glad and fortunate and thankful that people are are liked what I put out there. So pick up a copy of That Wild Country by one for a cousin and uncle and aunt, a buddy, anyone who you think needs to know more about the outside the wilderness pursuits the story of our public land. Graham mccopy, get them learned up. I certainly would appreciate that too, So there's your homework. Check out that Wild Country and the Back forty series. Alright, back with me on the show is Kip Adams. Thank you Kip for being here again. Absolutely mark my pleasure. Always enjoy getting to catch up and especially our our annual check in for this reason. I particularly enjoy because what we're gonna talk about today is the QTUM a white Tail Report which you guys put together every year, and it does a really great job for me at least of kind of resetting my mind, not just on how my personal hunting is going that I do myself, but this kind of gives me this big picture idea of what's the state of white tail hunting and white tailed deer across the country. And I love the fact that you guys do this, So thanks for doing so much work. I'm sure it's no easy task. I have my pleasure. I'm a I'm a data guy and certainly a dear junkie, so it's nice to kind of have the first look at all of this dear info from across the white tails range. Yeah, So for people that haven't heard one of these in the past or are not familiar with the White Tailer Report. Can you just give us the quick cliff notes of what this thing is that you guys put together. Sure, we've been doing this now since two thousand and nine, so more than a decade of new reports. And uh, what we realized was, you know, we had all this access to information and with our state and provincial wildlife agencies, you know, when hunters were craving this info. So we started doing an annual survey where we contacted every state in provincial wildlife agencies dear project later and asked them a series of questions on the prior seasons buck harvest and doe harvest age, structure of those harvest um other hunting related things, you know, like how many deer were shot with the firearm versus a bow versus a muzzleloader, and and then ask questions on just the biggest current topics going on, you know during that given year, whether it was disease related or you know, cross bowl related or whatever the case was. And then we compile it all together and put it in this annual report, and uh, folks can look at it, you know, on a state by state basis kind of see how your state compares to others number of bucks that you killed per square a mile and those per square a mile, and you know, all kinds of fun ways to just kind of gauge, you know, what's going on in the deer harvest world as well as other big issues impacting hunters. So you know, if you're a dear person, it's it's a one stop shop for kind of you know, the state of the Union address with regard to white tail hunting. Yeah, is there any other organization or governmental entity that is looking at this stuff at a national level, because every state is doing this individually. But I've never heard of anyone who's looking at the big picture other than you guys. Well, yeah, I don't know if anybody that's put together, you know, or compiled as much in nationally as we have. And the thing that's pretty cool about it, as you know, in the early years, when we contacted the state agencies, uh, some of them were a little reluctant to give us some information, and you know, but once we convinced them, hey, we are trying, you know, to to help share this information. You know, and it's good for the agencies as well because they can see what's going on in their neighboring states and in other regions, and over the years we have received tremendous accolades from hunters for sure, from the media, but also from the state and provincial agency folks saying, hey, you know, this is extremely helpful, you know, for us too, so that that's the goal of love it is to to share good information and help. So it's always nice to hear folks, you know, and all of those different disciplines you know, say hey, we use this and thanks for compiling it. Oh yeah, given the fact that this is kind of unique what you guys are doing compared to PRIB what any state has, has there been any I don't know, major epiphany or any kind of management change or anything that's come about because of the day out of you guys have put together, like the big picture story. Has that given a light ball to any organization or state that's led to some kind of change there. We hear a handful of stories each year where an agency will thank us for a certain chapter that's in there. Um For example, a perfect example in this year's report, one of the chapters is on starting time for for firearm season. You know, when the vast majority the state's hunters get to start a half hour before sunrise. You know, that's listed as the official start time. Um, well, there's one state in New York and actually New York is the only state in the country that makes their hunters wait until sunrise. And um, so they don't get to you know, that first half hour. Well, about five or six years ago, or actually maybe a little more than that, now, Ohio's hunters used to be in the same boat. And by collecting some information from surrounding states and putting together a little plan and saying, hey, you know, you guys are one of the only ones that make your hunters wait until sunrise. Um, Ohio DNR was actually able to change their regulations so they now started half hour before sunrise, you know, in large part because you could compare it to other states. So New York is kind of in that same boat right now, where their hunters in their agency, and I know their agency would like to at least some in their agency would like to change that as well. So you know, it's a it's a nice educational tool for that because they can look and say, look, you know, every other state in the country, you know, allows their hunters to start a half hour before sunrise. You know, there's not safety issues with that. So um, anyway, we have seen examples like that where because the data is together and it's you know, both a regional and a national look um, that's enabled state agencies to change some of the ways that they manage dear. You know, that's a little more uniform with the rest of the country. So that's pretty cool. We're glad that we can help with that. Yeah, I bet Matt Ross is pretty excited spearhead that project. Absolutely, So yeah, Matt is definitely in favor of getting an extra half hour. Yeah, for sure. I can't imagine not being able to hunt that first half hour of daylight. That's tough. I know. You know what's funny about that too, is that South Carolina is the only state that goes more than that, and and they're hunters are allowed to start an hour before sunrise. So yeah, that that's a little far. That was my sentiments exactly, you know, And sometimes we get they like then say, oh, geez, you know, did we input this data wrong or you know, the agency guy tell us wrong. So we confirmed, you know, with the South Carolina DNR, and they said, no, that's that's right, that's that's when we start. So yeah, the same thing, like wow, that is you know, there's lots of times, you know, with the you know, real bright now you just get snow on the ground, you can definitely see you know, maybe a little before a half hour before sunrise, but I'm thinking it an hour an hour it is pushing half hour before sunrise always seemed like just right, It's like that that natural breaking point where colors start to pop a little more. Okay, yeah, all right, it's daylight, it's time, um, but an hour it could be pitch black almost, that's right. Ah, well, that's interesting. So let's let's let's talk about this year, the two thousand twenty report, and this examines two thousand eighteen season data. Correct that you're that you're reviewing that comes out in nineteen, That is correct. Yep. So the most recent season hunting season where the data is all in and compiled and able to be to be shared is with you know, through the two thousand and eighteen and into nineteen hunting season. And because actually right now, you know there's still a few hunting seasons, you know that they're just finishing up. Actually Alabama still going so so some people say, well, jeez, if it's the twenty report, you know why you're using eighteen data. Well, it's because you know, the nineteen hunting season technically is not done yet everywhere and that data is not available. So so yeah, so it's the most recent season that's all done and data is shared with the country. Okay, so what's the high level grade? Like if you were the professor and you're class was the United States deer hunting season and you're going to rate that season on a F through a scale, UM, in some kind of somewhat objective way, how would you rate this season? Well, I will, I'll break that into two and I actually give it two grades. I'll give it one for for the buck harvest side of that, and I'll give you one for the antalyst harvest side, and UM for the buck harvest side. Hunters definitely would rate it as an a. UM. It was one of the highest buck harvests of all time, and that's saying a lot because you know, the historically our our country has was very very good at shooting bucks and we are at historically high numbers. Again, UM that there was the total buck harvest was over two point nine million antler deer, you know, and that does not count buck fons. Buck fons going to antalyst side, so deers that are one and a half and older, it was over two point nine million. That actually was down just a hair from the year before. UM, but we're still way above national averages. So from the buck side, UM, definitely in a lots of bucks. And we'll touch on age structure here in a minute, but unbelievable age structure, so lots of bucks. Arguably the best age structure ever. So we get an A for that from the antilis side, UM, a little lower grade for that, but we can we can talk more a little more about the buck harvest first before we get into the antlest side, if you'd like, sure, yeah, So so let's expand on the age structure thing. Then, UM, looks like the trend that has been going for a decade or a decade and a half or so now continues, right, that is correct. And we have been monitoring the age structure of the buck harvest since so uh a long time, and last year UM, it was literally the best age structure in our country's history. UM, and I would say that the best buy we monitor the percentage of all the buckshot that were one and a half years old, those that were two and a half years old, and then those that were three and a half and older. So it kind of group all of those older ones together and last year only thirty so less than a third of all the buck shot we're one and a half years old, and that is by far the lowest percentage in US history. Wow. Now, this is when you average out across all the states. That right, there's some states that are much higher than that, there's some states that are much lower. Correct, that is correct, yep. So, uh, the you know, the average to give you a feel of nine when we started monitoring this over of all the buckshot we're just one and a half years old. So that statistic has been more than cut in half today. So you know when some people look at that and say, you know what, why is this a good thing? Well, essentially what that means is, you know, if we are protecting the majority of yearling bucks each year, that allows the majority to you know, at least hit two and a half years of age and we can go ahead and start shooting them, then that's fine. But the good thing is we won't get them all, so some will become three and a half, some will become four and a half and five half, etcetera. And once we had that balanced age structure on the buck side, you know, that's very natural for dear populations. It's very healthy form. That's how they evolved, that's how their social order works best. So as managers, you know, we should be interested in making sure we do match that natural age structure and uh with with what we're shooting today and allows that to happen. So that's a really good place to be. Can you expand on what you're just saying there as far as the benefits of that balanced age structure, because you get this a lot where people say, well, you just wanna you talk about this management, but it's really just because you want big antler deer um. Not as many people understand the benefits from a health perspective and a habitat perspective and all that. Can you just give us a little primer in that too, just for people that maybe aren't familiar. Sure, deer are very social, far more social than most people realize, and they evolved under this very complex social order where they are always sharing information at rubs and at scrapes. They're leaving information there through pheromones, where you know, younger deer pick up on these cues, and there's a whole social order that works based on havin this complete age structure of deer that are you know, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven years old and older. And uh, all of that starts to fall apart if you don't have those older animals there. Now, some people say, well, you know, all of those out there will be bread even if you only have young deer. And and that is true, even if all the bucks are only one and a half years old. Sure they can handle the breaching requirements for that dear herd. But that's a pretty poor measure of heart health. So a much better measure is, hey, let's let's make sure that we're managing for dear herd that is natural. And if you look today mark and unhunted populations of deer, like in urban areas or other places we just can't hunt. They have very advanced age structures. If you look in Native American trash piles where they can pull out jawbones, and you know, before white Man had a big impact, they had very advanced age structures. So I mean that's just a natural thing, and so it's wildlife managers we should strive to, you know, produce what would naturally happen anyway, and that happens when we have very balanced age structure as a deer. That less the social orders work, that keeps those those younger bucks from spending so much energy in the phone winner trying to breed. It allows them to have more body fat going into winter, so survival is higher. They're healthier in the spring at green up. So there's a whole bunch of pieces that play into that. But at the end of the day, it's it's very clear that balanced age structures for white tailed deer are certainly good for hunters because we have the opportunity to pursue order bucks. That is true. However, they're also very important for the deer hurt themselves. Is this the biggest change that you guys have seen since starting the white tail report? If you were looking over this from from the first report to now we're from when you were tracking things first, and you look at all this data that you've been studying year after year after year, is this the most substantial difference or is there anything else that stands out? Like, hey, this is a lot different than it used to be as well. There's there's two really big differences. This is definitely one of them where you know, age structure has changed, so you know, only thirty nowur one and thirty seven percent of the buck harvest last year was at least three years old, so there were three or four or five that is by far the highest percentage of those older bucks. So literally that's a you know, a monumental change and what's going on. So there's also one other huge change that we can address next. But this age structure difference is definitely one of the two biggest things that has changed since we began writing this back in two thousand nine. So then what's the next one. The next one is actually the h the sex ratio of the harvest. Um. I told you that we shot over two point nine million bucks last year and it's record high buck harvest numbers. Uh. The flip side of that is the analyst side. So while I would give us A for the bucks hide, UM, we are a lot closer to a C grade C for the ant of a side. And and the reason for that is um, for the second year in a row, we shot more bucks than we did aunt lois dear. Um, the first time in US history that we shot more ant lists deer than we did bucks was back and uh, and that was a historic year managing deer. Because for most of the white tails range, we need to be shooting more does than bucks each year for to have healthy populations. There are certainly some places in the country, Um, New England comes to mind, Florida comes to mind, where we can be successful by shooting more bucks than does each year. But for the vast majority of the country that is not the case. So well, in your home state of Michigan, think of it this way, you know, and the u P you know, you can be successful, you know, by eating about the same number of bucks as does in the up you know, that keeps deer herds in check, it keeps things bound. But in the southern you know, peninsula, you can't be successful or you have to shoot more analysts deer. Well, we have been doing that for a long time, and that's really one of the reasons. You know, the foundation of q d m A is, Hey, you know, let's balance deer hers the habitat. We do that by protecting some of those young bucks and focusing an effort on DOES, so was a landmark year and then for a couple of decades after that we continued to shoot way more antalysts year than bucks. Well, two years ago that changed. There was the first year since in the late nineties that we actually shot more bucks than does and it was just a few more, a few thousand, that was it. Well, last year the gap we got wider. We again shot a lot more bucks than analysts deer, and we shot almost fifty thousand more bucks across the US. So that's not good. The analyst harvest has dropped about in the last decade. Um. In some places that's needed. We've had places where we've balanced deer herds and places where we've lost a lot of deer to disease, but uh, in much of the country, hum that is not the case. So we are absolutely going the wrong way with the antle of the side and that showed again last year. So what do you think gives? Yeah, what do you think? What's behind that? Is that because hunters don't think the dear populations are where they should be. So it's a choice to try to you know, re established populations that hunters don't think are large enough or is this I mean, I don't know what's the theory behind it. Do you have one? I think yeah, I think there's a couple of things. One is, um, there are still a faction of hunters who you know, who just simply don't want to shoot antlerst deer. Um. It tends to be a lot older hunters. UM. Younger and newer hunters tend to be much more uh likely to shoot antlest deer, to put that meat in the freezer, to do their part for conservation and be good stewards of the natural resources. So you still have some people who just choose to to not shoot antlerwis deer. And part of it is we have some pretty liberal buck bag limits in a lot of the country, so people would just rather, you know, shoot something with antlers than not. And uh I get that. But one of the dangers of that is we've actually looked this was this data came from last year's wait Till report. What we found is across the country, less than half of all the hunters in the US will shoot a deer in any given year. It's only so four out of ten hunters kill a deer. H Only hunters kill more than one deer. So it's a small number of people who shoot multiple deer a year. So you me and our friends worthy anomally the ones that are killed. I can't imagine that. You know, the Adams family eats a lot more than two deer a year, but because it has since such a small number shoots more than one deer um, a lot of states allow people to you know, kill at least two bucks. So with that, you know, if the average person is only shooting one, they prefer to shoot a buck. And if that small number that gets to shoot more than one, you know, they often, if they have a chance, they will take a second buck too. So we're just we're focused on too much effort, even though our buck age structure is really really good. You know, these historically high buck harvest rates is because you know, if people take that second deer, and it's a small number, they do, but for those that do, many of them take another buck. And we're just simply not putting enough effort on the antlers side. Yeah, okay, so I know this is well tried ground, but again, let's assume there's new hunters listening. Why is it important that we try to take out some of these antler list deer and manage them a little bit better. Why is this so important? What happens when we don't do that? Well? The way that we control dear populations um is through the analyst harvest. You know, we can shoot all the bucks we want, but that's not controlling population growth. In most cases, we have to shoot the handle of the side. So and we want to keep deer herds healthy, and we do that when we have balanced sex raciers. Now, if you take all the phones born in Michigan this year, or my home state of Pennsylvania anywhere else, about half of them are buck ponds, and about half our dough phones. So just from that, you have to shoot about the same numbers of bucks as does each year just to keep that sex racial balance, keep that dear hurt healthy, and have any chance of keeping dear from becoming too overabundant. So that's uh, that's the very quick and dry and short way. And say, hey, it is so important. And I'll tell you now, whether the spread of c w D it's becoming more and more clear than in these disease zones, it is even more important to focus additional harvest effort on these dose or we're just absolutely losing the disease game. Yeah, I want to talk about that specifically in a minute. Um, But one more clarifying question on the over abundance thing again, just to get folks up to speed here, what happens to a deer herd and an area when you have way too many deer? What are because there's a whole cascade of effects when your dear populations out of whack with the habitat. Can you just walk us through that a little bit? Sure, deer eat a lot and and the average deer eats about two thousand pounds of food a year, so smaller deery less than that. Bigger deer eat more, but on average they're eating a ton of peace. So you know, that's a lot of food that we have to provide. And as soon as we have more deer than we have adequate food available, what they start doing is then the deer herd starts degrading that habitat, and then they're being nutritionally deprived, so they're not as healthy as they were. And then what that means is as they start degrading the habitat, then other wildlife species are negatively impacted. You know, the habitat is negatively impacted, and then since they are degraded next year, that area can't so hold as many deer as it could this year, so it can support fewer deer next year and then fewer the year after that at And you know, from a hunting end, that's absolutely the wrong way we want to go, you know, and just from being a good steward, that's wrong. So we want to make sure that there's not more dear then we have good food for because that negatively impacts all the wildlife species and all that habitat that's there headed in the wrong direction. So the cool thing is, though, as soon as we balance that deer heard and shoot enough anti list dear, the deer that are left are healthier, they have more phones, the habitat is healthier, which means it's better for turkeys and songbirds and non game species. You know, it's a it's a win win when we when we pull the trigger on enough antler lists here. Yeah, and then from a hunting perspective to wouldn't you agree that having that better balanced antler list side will lead to a more intense run, which is going to give you a more fun hunting experience too, absolutely absoluta, and that puts more bucks on their feet more during daylight hours during the fall, which is you know exactly what we want. You you've never heard of hunters say, ma'am, when I go hunting today, I hope the bucks are just not moving. We don't want But if you have way more ant lists here than than bucks, that's that's often what happens because they don't have to move very far to find the dough. So yeah, balanced age structures make deer move more, and they make them move more during daylight hours, which which is good for us as hunters. So okay, so that's what's going on from a bucking Doe harvest. We talked about age structure. Any other big things that stood out to you this year as far as headlines for the report, Yeah, one of them because of this whole antlest thing where we're not shooting as many deer. Um. We asked all the states a question, Hey, You're like, what is your preference for the antlest harvest in your state? You know, do you want to see him shoot more ant list you than box or about the same number or more bucks? And does like we wanted to see what the philosophy of the agencies were, and it was it was extremely really you know, what we found is the vast majority of the Northeast they want to buck harvest I'm sorry, the antlest harvest to be more than the bucklers. You know, okay, we know we need to feel more anless here. Um. The exception of that was New England and New England. Um, they want to shoot more bucks than those simply because they just don't. They can't sustain the same type of harvest that you can or we can hear, you know that's right, yep. And then the severe winters and you know, and and fawn recruitment is lower, so they just don't. They're just those jeer herbs aren't as productive as you know, um, places where it's a little easier to live. But but so most of the Northeast wants to shoot more antless gem bucks. The Southeast it was different, and most of that says, you know what, as long as the buck harvest is about equal to aurinless harmers were pretty good that that's what we'd like to see. So, uh, that's very different from what we have in the Northeast and the Midwest is kind of in between the two. Some of the states wanted more those some didn't. And you guys, actually the Lower Peninsula said absolutely, was like, we need to shoot more antless gum bucks. The up was about the same, you know, same number of each And uh, this this is very helpful because there's a lot of ters that here when I talk about are you or others? And but where they're from really matters. So for example, if you're from Florida, you know, area that's just from not real productive soils, not real productive deer herds, you know, you just can't sustain anywhere near the same levels of antless harvest as a Michigan or Pennsylvania or Io or those. So so it's very helpful for hunters to see, hey, what's my agency's philosophy on this, because then it allows them, you know, to help more during the deer season, either shoot an extra antless deer or two extra antlow list deer or wherever the case is. So it can allow them to be a better partner and more engaged on what's going on. You know. One of the things, Uh, this is a little bit of a segue, but it brings to mind another one of the topics you guys cover in their port. And one of the things that hunters have been worried about for many years has that has been the introduction of crossbows. And the theory being that if we introduced crossbows seasons, that's going to get way too many deer being killed by these cross bows that are too easy for people to use, and that's going to result in the crash of deer populations or or some other issues. UM. You guys took a look a little bit at crossbows this year in the report. Is there any truth to that kind of impact that crossbows could have or what have you guys seen as far as that introduction. Over the last I don't know, a decade or fifteen years or however long it's been, the crossbows have been more and more popularly utilized. That's a great question, and that is a growing concern by many. UM. One of the things that that we looked at in this report is we take a look at the total dear Hardest and we asked you just says, hey, what percentagees was taken by a bow or muzzleloader or a firearm and and the bows, bow and crossboard together, and what we saw you know, we've been monitoring this for a long time and UH, fifteen to twenty years ago, only about the total harvest was taken by bows. You know. Now this was kind of before most of the crossbows seasons were put into effect. UM. Fast forward to now and over about the last five years, UM, this number has stabilized. But over the last five years bows and crossbows take about a quarter of the deer harvest. So that climbed a lot when you were seeing a lot more crossbow seasons. But it's it's kind of stabilized right there. And you're in and year obits about so that is not changing over the last few years. So firearms still take about two thirds of all the deer. However, what is changing is the percentage of that archery harvest that's taken by crossbows. And UH, and we took a look at hey which states allow you allow the vast majority of hunters to use crossbows during the archery season. You know, you don't have to be a senior or a youth hunter, or have a disability or whatever. UM. Today in the vast majority of the country, UH, at least vast majority of the eastern two thirds of the country, where where most white tails live. Um, almost everybody can use a crossbow during archery season, so that's really your own which then begs the question, Okay, what impacts are those crossbows have? And what we see is they're really not changing the overall deer harvest. UM. No state has you know, changed their crossbow laws because crossbows are killing too much. Nobody has has made those efforts yet. However, the one big change we're seeing right now is there are a handful of states where now the crossbow harvest exceeds the vertical bow harvest. UM, places like your state of Michigan, mine in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Virginia, Wisconsin, some of these really big, you know, in long term deer hunting states. Now people are really taking advantage of crossbows. So it's changing the actual archie harvest. Archie harvest the state about the same. It's not getting higher, but more of those deer are now being taken by crossbow and that's drawn attention from a lot of hunters, a particularly a lot of traditional bow hunters. So it's not impacting dear levels, it's not impacting the any kind of Oh, it's not impacting the herd. It's simply impacting how people how hunters are engaging with the herd, so how people are doing it. So really it comes down to people that would otherwise be killing deer with a vertical bow are switching to a horizontal horizontal bow crossbow and just utilizing this easier option. Or do we think that it's that crossbows are doing one of the things that people hypothesized, which is that they are allowing new hunters to come into the game in a more easy fashion, or keeping long term bow hunters in the game longer as they get older. Do we have any data or anecdotal evidence that one of those two things happening. It's it's we do and and it's a little bit of all of those things that you just said. Um, there's no doubt that they are bringing or allowing uh young hunters to partake any archery season at an earlier age, and they would. Um, my kids are perfect examples. You know my kids before or my son this year when he was ten, and my daughter when she was I think nine was her first year under ten. You know, world, we're archery hunting with me. They both shoot a vertical bow in the background or I mean in the backyard with me and love it. But you know, neither one of them pull at that time anyway anywhere near enough weight you know, to hunt with that bow. However, you know, so they would stand the backyard and shoot our compound bows. But then we'd go hunting. We we got a crossbow, so you know, they could start hunting them, and we are seeing that, you know, in many states. So the one thing that's a little funny with us, though, is that no states are being able to show, you know, this big increase in hunter numbers because of this directly resulted from being able to use crossbows. But there's no doubt that there's a lot of young hunters today hunting with a crossbow that just simply couldn't like a compound. Um, there's no doubt there's a lot of aging hunters. They are able to continue to hunt in the archery season because they can use crossbows. And it's undeniable that there's a lot of new adult hunters trying hunting because they can use a cross bow first. And our field defolt programs are perfect example, you know, where we find adult hunters who want to do that. Many of them are particularly many of the ladies that get involved are very intimidated by shooting a shotgun or a rifle, you know, and just have want nothing to do with that at first. However, they think a cross like, oh, I can do that, you know, I want to get my own food and I'll try it with a cross bow. Yeah. So there's definitely some some evidence that those are helping, um at least some with recruiting hunters and retaining some hunters. So there's seemingly no big picture negative impact from them. There's seemingly some possible positive impact. Um it comes down to a purity issue for some hunters. What do either you or the Quality Dear Management Association say to those who have concerns still? What's the stance of the organization or or you personally? Yeah, Well, I'm I'm a die hard bow hunter, um you know, I I very serious about taking my my compound to the woods. And so I get it when when there's other die hard hunters that you know, just really despise crossbows, and I know a lot of people that do. However, you know, I try to look at the big picture and say, even though I don't choose to hunt with a crossbow, um man, I'm sure. I'm glad that my kids can come hunting with it. And you know, I have an older member of our deer campus in his eighties now that bow hunted his whole life that just simply can't anymore. But but he's still crossbow hunts. So man, I'm glad that he can come. And you know what I'm so my take on it is, Hey, you know, we need hunters more than ever before. So if crossbows are not having any negative biological impact on deer herds, but they can help get more people into the woods. Man, I'm totally fine sharing the archery woods, you know, with somebody else hoosing a crossbow. Um, I get it. In some states where they're buck harvest is you know a lot of crossbows are taking a lot more of those books and taking them earlier in the year, you know than some of the firearm hunters can get too. But man, everybody can. You can get a crossbow and go hunt. So I can see both sides. But man, I'm told to find sharing. What is somebody using a crossbow, you know, God bless him for wanting to hunt and and to be out there. Yeah, I'd rather have somebody getting into it and learning to love this stuff and this resource and maybe someday standing up for I'd rather have that person out there doing that than never getting into it at all because they didn't feel comfortable with a compound or a gun. So that's right. I agree. I'm with you. So speaking of that hunter recruitment UH challenge, which Crossbows we hope is are our one small way to help address that. I didn't see this addressed addressing the report, But from your perspective or from any other things that you've been involved in, are looking at where do we stand on that front? I mean, there's a big article that came out in the Washington Post recently talking about declining hunter numbers and the impacts that's having on conservation funding. It's a thing we continue to talk about year after year after year. Um, just what's your what's your sense of or what's what's the pulse on that? Where are we doing anything right? Are we still trending in the wrong direction? Do you feel like we're making any impact of the programs of trying or the all the talk about it. Well? I do, and you know it's it's it's undeniable that we're losing hunters and then we're losing at an alarming rate. Of all the different recruitment programs and retention programs that are out there, you know, we have not had a lot of success with those, I think mostly because the majority of them were focused on youth. And about five years ago we started to take we being Q you may took a little different look and said, hey, you know, like we still do a lot of youth stuff, but hey, what if we did something that focused on some more adults who may want to go hunting. And that's kind of what our Field Default program was born out of. And I share that to say that has been the one success story that we have seen in the opportunity to kind of turn the tide on loss of hunter numbers UM. For example, a lot of youth programs, you know, the actual impact is pretty minimal um, you know, because first of all, the kid can't take himself hunting. They need somebody to take them. They can't buy a bow or a gun, and so if they didn't have opportunity to go, then sure, let's take them and show them a good time and expose them to it. But you know, that's not a big recruitment factor that way. However, with an adult, hey, they can get a bow, they can drive, they can buy a license. And so where we have seen our field of fort programs is about of all the people that go through those continue to hunt the next year, they buy a license, they buy bows, they buy guns, they buy Campbell clothing. So so we I think around the verge of having something to really change that that tide um, we spent the last few years kind of developing a model that we know will work with regard to mentoring hunters. So we are in the process right now of scaling that up and being able to use it at a much broader scale where it doesn't just have to be qd M a staff and volunteers that can implement these programs, you know, and get these people involved, but we can have others who aren't even affiliated with us follow these methods that we have shown to work very well. That then we can do this in communities across the United States. So is it gonna work, man? I sure hope so. And I think we have a better model than anything that we've had, you know, in the last several decades to do this. So it's just a matter of if we're able to pull it off at a scale that really makes a difference. But but there's no doubt mark that the future is brighter, at least for this model than anything else that we have seen in a long time. Yeah, I am excited about that too. I do. I do believe you guys have have found something, You've tapped into, something that really does have some potential. So excited to hopefully continue helping on that front and make that a reality and make that scaling possible. Yeah, and you have been involved in those so, I mean you see the power of them. You know, you have mentored hunters, you know, and that's as much as anything is that Historically hunters look at this as hey, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna be a consumer. I am gonna go I'm gonna hopefully shoot something and need it. I'm going to use these opportunities. Well, we need to change that dinalogue some too, and we need to understand that every hunter has to say, you know what I am going to do all this. However, it is my responsibility to then also teach somebody else. And I know you do that and you're very good at it. And we need to impress upon the mass of hunters. You know, hey, this is why it's important. And once we convince you it's important, Okay, here are the materials, are the way to make it easier for you to then go ahead and do this. Yeah. I've just always thought that I personally, we all get so much from hunting, so many benefits, so many ways that it enriches our lives. Um It just I think if you enjoy those benefits, it then becomes incumbent upon you to give back, to try to pass it on, to try to get back to the resource, or to help other people enjoy that resource. So it just seems like an obligation, like and not even a question, is just something you absolutely should have to do. Um So I hope hopefully more and more people feel the same way. I want to. I want to switch gears a little bit, kip from what is a little bit of a glimmer of hope on the front of this new program that's helping with some hunter recruitment. I want to skip to something that's a little less um positive, which is the whole topic of disease across the country. I know this is another area of continuous change and evolution. As you guys have been doing the White Tail Report UM. E h D and c w D have both come up various times, either annually or here and there. As we've talked over the years doing these annual check in podcasts, where do things stand right now with e h D and c w D. What's our status report, UM, and what do you foresee moving forward from the e h D And we're continuing to see more frequent outbreaks UM. And if folks aren't from the h D, is it's a temorrhagic disease, it's you know, it's a viral disease. That's more most natural diseases of deer that's carried by the no SM So these little biting midges, that's the disease that's carried during the summer that we often see deer end up near water. UM. It's very common with deer. UM. What we're seeing is an expansion of the severity of those outbreaks. It used to be just kind of the disease of deer in the southeastern US. And you know, those deer who are exposed to it every year, they can develop antibodies against it, so you didn't see these big die offs. What we're seeing now is you know, it's not a disease of the southeast anymore at all. You know, it's all the way up into Canada, it's all the way across the country, you know, through Montana um, so a lot more deer hurts being exposed. You know, we are seeing more severe die offs on a more regular basis, So definitely bigger impacts in the past. Now the good thing is, you know if deer some deer surviving, that doesn't kill everybody, and even some that get it survived and then they are more resistant to it in the future. So the overall impact, Yeah, we lose a bunch of deer in some areas, but they recover very quickly. There's no long term effects, and then you just kind of go on with it. That's very different from from c w D, where it's a fatal to all deer. You know, they don't recover from it and once it's there. The bad thing about CWD is it takes a while to infect enough deer and a deer herd to start seeing population level declines. So like hemorrho DGCSE where people find oh god dear, got it now, they're dead a week later. I can see that I understand this is bad. C w D doesn't work that way. It's kind of like the slow killer. So many hunters just don't realize the severity of it. But big picture, c w D is way worse for deer herds and the future of hunting than hemorrhagic disease. You know, It's like scales worse. So what's the latest update on CWD? Then, I know that we continue to hear in new reports trickle out week after week after week, year after year after year. What are the headlines of CWD this year? Well, Um, it continues to to expand. It's now in twenty states, so it's in over half of the US several foreign countries as well, but we see continued expansion of it new states as well as areas within states that already had it. Um, there's been a lot of you know, doom and gloom over c w D in the past because we had so few success stories. But you know what, even though it is continuing to spread, for the first time, we are starting to have up some research help us out with some some positive things. For example, this past year, for the first time ever, now we know, hey, we can finally decontaminate or clean knives, saws and other things that we processed here with, you know, so we know how to get rid of the prens off the stainless steel and uh, it's pretty cool. It's as simple as a as a bleach bath. Basically can't decontaminate a carcass or the environment yet, but at least we have a step in how to beat this on our equipment that we use knives and stuff to feel, dress and cut up deer. So that's a good thing. Um, we know for the first time, possibly through some some soil properties, it's human acid properties, where hey, we know something in the environment that now may help us in this fight against CWD. So it's they're small steps, but man, it's nice to have something positive for the first time in this fight because as this continues to spread and impact more deer herds, more hunters. Um, you know, we need some good news and every little advantage that we have gets us a little bit closer to being able to do something to stop this disease. Yeah, could you expand on the soil uh topic, with that research has shown, is that something you feel comfortable expanding on. Sure, there's been some research and we know Once cwds in an area in the environment, um, the prions stay in the ground and can it affect other deer. So for example, if the deer has CWD positive and it urinates or defecates in the ground, um, other deer coming can tech with that and then they can contract the disease. This is why when you get it the disease, you know you can the outlaw a baiting, the outlaw feeding the outlaw mineral licks because they don't want deer swamping, you know, spit or eating where another deer urinator defecated because they can contract the disease. Well, we also know that wherever that imprions are on the ground, there are certain plants growing there that can actually uptake those preons up through the plant and have them in their leaves. So if another animal comes to each those leaves, you know there is a chance that that deer can contract the disease from that. So, man, this is in the environment. We can't decontaminate environment. You know this, this is a bad deal. Well, now researchers have seen with this humic acid or some of these different soil properties. Hey, you know what, maybe now there's something that just is a natural word to these preons. So they don't understand exactly how to use that to our benefits yet, but it's way different than everything else we have seen in the environment where certain proud or certain soils like clay soils especially, tend to bind these prions more tightly and can you know potentially in fact dear at a higher rate in those type of soils. Well, now, the humic acid, there's something about these soils that make the way less susceptible, make dear way less susceptible to this disease. So even though they don't understand the entire connection yet, we have identified something that may help us in this battle against c w D. So there's a lot of pieces that still have to be put together, but at least it's a step in the right direction, because you know, there's there's nothing that we know of until very recently that we could could decontaminate any area where the disease was so, you know, so, but it's the more we understand about how to do that, then the better job we can do at limiting spread of these preons and trying to get rid of them once they are there. So, um, every little bit helps for sure, even if we don't have all the pieces put together. Yeah, at least that is a very positive step. Yeah, you don't think that sending fire trucks full of bleach to sprawl over the county, isn't That isn't a really good a solution. Not. Yeah. Yeah, And it's funny because when they came out with the research about using bleach to clean the knives, you know, they have big letters and make it very cular. Hey, this does not work on tissue. Don't put up because you know, the first time somebody reads that and say, hey, well if it cleans my life, what if I just soaked his backstrap? So um so yeah. So no, it does not doesn't get into tissue at all. It's only on stainless steel. So if your deer is not made a stainless steel, don't try to clean that with the bleach. And I hope you're not shooting any stainless steel deer. That's right, Speaking of trying to battle CWD. Though you did allude earlier to uh, this whole topic of antlerless harvest and the importance of focusing on does when it comes to managing c w D. There's a lot of talk about the importance of buck harvest when trying to contain CWD because bucks tend to disperse more um. But I know you wrote an article and you've been trying to make sure people understand that you can't forget about does. Can you talk about that a little bit? Sure? So much of the fight against c W d UM focuses on killing bucks, and the reason for that is because bucks carry the disease at a higher rate than does And then there's some great data from from multiple states that show that, you know, adult bucks are about twice as likely to have it as adult does. Yearling box are more likely to have it than yearling does. So a lot of the effort has been a hey, man, don't let these bucks get old. We gotta kill them, you know, before they take this disease, you know, and it infect everybody. Well. In doing that, a lot of the educational campaigns by agencies and and even a lot of deer managers get so focused on the buck side that I think that, you know, they're going to lose the war. And what I mean by that is there's four big reasons and this is what I wrote about to not forget about the dose. One is that some some great research out of Wisconsin show that just because of the social order of deer, bucks tend to be a lot more loaners where dose you know, they just live in these family groups. So if a dough had a relative nearby that was CWD positive, that dough was ten times more likely to have the disease. So what that means is these family groups, as soon as one of them hits the disease, you know, everybody else in that group is much more likely to get it. Once they get it, they then become these reservoirs of the disease and the environment that we can't we can't decontamine it, we can't get rid of it. So we need to absolutely minimize the opportunity for this happening, and that happens by shooting antalist deer and keeping deer herds and balance with the habitat. So that's one. The second thing is part of the reason that some agencies focus effort on young bucks or say hey, we need to take off these anil and restrictions to kill these yelling bucks. It's because these yearing bucks disperse, and there's lots of research that shows that when bucks are twelve to eighteen months old, half to three quarters of them are going to disperse from where they were born and set up their own home range. And then they tend to do this one to five miles away. So some upset it's holy cows, they're gonna sco they might take the disease with them and introducing into a new area. Let's kill them. And and there's certainly some warrant to that that when they disperse, they can go as a disease. But by focusing all that after on those young bucks, we end up then killing fewer Anilois deer. Well, some very brand new research out of Minnesota and Southeast Minnesota specifically is following young bucks and young doughs, and what they're finding is their young bucks are dispersing at about exactly the same rate as that all the other studies show, but their dos are dispersing at about the exact same rate. So while half the three quarters of the young bucks are leaving, half to the three quarters of the young does are too. They're dispersing, and they're dispersing almost as far. So there's a you know, opportunity for them to spread this disease too. So we can't focus too much of the effort just on those young bucks. We need to be focusing it on the doors as well, or our efforts are lost. The third thing is, and I think this is one of the biggest things Mark I've fully have seen that they did understand that adult box are about twice as likely to have the disease as adult does. However, what people forget about is take any place in the country, or just about any place in the country, certainly any place outside of South Texas, any given deer herd has way more than two adult does for every adult buck. So take where you are. Okay, maybe you're doing a good job managing and you've got you know, one or two five year old bucks on the property. I will promise you have more two or four or five year old does. So what happens is, even though those bucks are voices likely had a disease. You know, every deer heard that we see has more than twice as many adult dose as adult box So even though they are less likely to have the disease, just by sheer numbers of those does on the landscape, there will always be more CWD positive does then c w D positive bucks out there. So if we're going to manage this disease, we have got to be killing those doughs. And you and I talked about it earlier, where less than half of the hunters kill a deer only kill more than one deer. Take Michigan. You can kill two bucks in Michigan. So what happens is so many of these people end up shooting a buck or shoot two bucks where and then they don't shoot those doughs. You know, they're not sharing that meat with others. And so we are absolutely going the wrong way. And that's why I've told people, Hey, if you focus all of your effort on young bucks or on bucks in general, um, hey, that's the wrong way to do. You can win this buck battle, which you're gonna lose the disease war. You absolutely are. So do we need to shoot box? We certainly do, But we need to be focused on even more effort on the antle the side. And this is especially true once you're in the CWD zone. Yeah, great and great point. Has there been any I know, I think if I remember right, Minnesota was kind of updated their plan for CWD recently. Is there anything new or innovative or useful that we've learned over the last year as far as management strategies, because this is always the controversial thing. Hunters are always up in arms about how a state decides to manage CWD once it arrives. Um, is there anything new on that front or that's being tried? Uh? I think last year we talked about this a little bit and you were encouraged with with one state. I honestly can't remember which it was now, but I don't know anything new on that front, or we're just kind of doing the same old, same old. Well, the folks are definitely looking as some new things, and partly because they're starting to understand, you know, this need to to get more effort on the dough side. UM. Pennsylvania is actually probably the best example right now because they are going through an update of their CWD plan and they have taken a stance which I think is exactly right. They have gone out to the hunters and their disease zones and have admitted right in front, hey, we can't do this without you. We need your help. We want you to be the saviors and all of this and help us battle this disease, and we want you to do this by shooting you know x number of antle list dear. You know we need to increase the antlest side. So here's the deal. We are very We know that we can come in with targeted removal after the season with sharp shooters, you know, and shoot these extra deer um. You don't want us to do this. We don't want to have to do that. We would much rather work with you during the hunting season and have you shoot more antalyst deer than you have in the past. You're still going to have very honorable populations to do when we're done. We're not asking you to go to zero with the deer, but we do need you to shoot more, dear. Here's why. And they're doing a great job education sharing this information. And if you can hit these harvest rates that we need kind of similar to some of the stuff that's going on in Michigan and that disease of research area. If you can hit these harvest totals of ant list, dear, then there will be no targeted removal postseason. You know. If you don't hit them, then you know, we're gonna be forced to come in and do this, But please, we want to do this with you first. So my take on it is is it is the first time in an agency like that has really reached out and truly try to be a good partner for the hunters and let them know right up front, you guys are the ones, guys and gals that will make or break this program. You know, we need you, we know we can't do it without you. And just that reaching you know, and trying to develop that relationship, man, that goes a long way to getting support from not all of the landowners and hunters but sure, but from a lot of them. So I think that is the ticket to solve on this issue moving forward, stronger relationships because hunters are absolutely needed and if they understand how they can help, they are more likely to help. So education is the key to that big you know, strong educational campaigns. So anyway, I think that's a pretty exciting thing and I'm excited to see where it goes here. I think that makes a lot of sense. So so speaking of other important ways that hunters can partner with with whether it be managing agencies or legislators that are in some ways impacting the population or the resource. Um, I know, there's a number of different things that you do and the conservation side of QT may works on as far as policies, as far as pushing various proposals, are supporting various things that are they're ongoing in different states. UM, I'm curious what some of the major things things is the wrong word I'm blanking on the right word here, Um, but some of the various proposals or pieces of legislation or or anything ongoing across the country that you think that hunters need to know about and put our support behind. Um. You know, I know there's this uh Pittman Robertson Modernization Act that's out there. I'm curious if that's something we should be paying more attention to. I know there's been a proposal put out there to protect boundary waters, which I know you guys have lent your support to, which I think is awesome. UM. Are those things that we should be talking more about? Is there anything else in your radar that we need to kind of rally around? What? What do we need to know about? What you just mentioned? Both of those are great and and good for all sportsmen and women. UM. The one big thing right now that we really could use support for that is going to benefit all hunters is there's a fair number of federal bills out there right now that are looking at increasing federal funding for CWD research and management and U. Back when you know, the early two thousands, there was close to twenty million and federal dollars that the state agency has got to manage c w D to sample and all that well, all that money is gone. It was as soon as they figured out the CWD likely couldn't impact humans, all that money dried up. So all of the sampling that's done today and surveillance and monitoring, the vast majority that's coming right out of the state agency budgets. And man, wouldn't it be better if our states could use that for things like hunter access and habitat enhancement and UM, So there's a we are pushing hard with some of these federal legislators to get this federal funding which would allow agencies to then use more of their own budgets on cool things like habitat enhancement in that so that is the one thing that hunters can get behind. UM it was a great push last year and we thought we were going to get about fifteen million in federal funding for the states. UM it didn't end up happening. That will be reintroducing again this year, and that probably probably arguably is the single most important bill like that the hunters can get behind to really make a difference with what we have both now to hunt deer and in the future. Okay, well, when that gets reintroduced, I will definitely be railing the troops to get behind that again. I know that that research money and just knowledge. We're just lacking so much information still and it seems like the only way to the only way to get that is to get money behind it, get the research going, and um cross their fingers and toes that's right. Outside of legislation. One thing, the best thing that hunters can do, though, is take somebody else hunting, expose somebody new, take them, introduce them to the sport. That's cheap, that's easy. We all can do that. So, uh, I challenge everybody this year to to get somebody and expose them, you know, at least once to the woods and uh, you know, hopefully multiple times. So as a great place to leave us off here today, lots of great information, Kip, I appreciate you sharing it with us today and taking all the time to put together report for people that want to see this whole thing, the whole report and get all there's a lot more that we didn't cover. Where can they find that? They can go right to q DMA dot com. Um, we have all of our way to reports on the website is free downloads, so they can go and grab it and have a blast searching through and seeing how they stay compares to others. Very good stuff, Kip, Thank you for your time, absolutely Mark, thank you. Awesome job with the back forward and everything you do for conservation and man can't wait to read your book. Thank you. I appreciate it and that is going to do it. Thank you so much for tuning in. Appreciate you listening. Lots of cool stuff coming up. We're kind of retooling, figuring out what the plan is going to be for new ideas, new projects, new hunts, new stories, new guests. Lots of cool stuff on the way, So stick around and until next time, stay wired to Hunts.

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